00:00 - 00:04 Christian Napier: I'm going to go ahead and do that. 00:16 - 00:18 Spencer Horn : I guess I better better put the 00:23 - 00:25 Christian Napier: camera back on huh? Hey, if you can't tell, it's 00:26 - 00:26 Christian Napier: been a 00:26 - 00:28 Spencer Horn : minute since we last did 1 00:28 - 00:29 Christian Napier: of these. 00:29 - 00:37 Christian Napier: I was I was dancing to the music. That's right. Here we are. Another episode of teamwork, a better way. I'm Christian Apier. This 00:37 - 00:38 Christian Napier: is Spencer Horn who is the Wizard of Oz 00:38 - 00:42 Christian Napier: behind all of the controls. Spencer, it's been a minute, how have you been? 00:42 - 00:57 Spencer Horn : Good, it has been a minute. My goodness, it's been great. I mean, you and I, we've had lunch with, you know, with our good friend, Patrick. We like to get together regularly. So we've gotten together since the last time we did a podcast, which has been over a month, right? I mean, that was like early September or something. 00:57 - 01:05 Christian Napier: Yeah. I think it's been that long. And that's probably the longest we've ever gone between podcast episodes. But you can see I 01:05 - 01:20 Spencer Horn : was on the I was gone. I couldn't I mean I was literally all I was in Singapore and Indonesia and Chicago. I was just I was on the road for an entire month and I'm glad I took a little bit of a break because I took a lot out of me. 01:21 - 02:00 Christian Napier: Well, welcome back. Welcome back. Great to have you back here in these United States here in the great state of Utah, here in the Salt Lake Valley. And I mentioned the United States because we've got a massive election coming up here in a few days. And it seems to me like everybody's on pins and needles, Spencer, about this election. And I don't know if you're feeling it, but I'm certainly feeling it. It just seems a little more tense. And so I'm really excited and eager to have a conversation with you about that and understand the impacts 02:01 - 02:10 Christian Napier: that these kinds of events can have on our teams and what we can do to kind of counteract it individually and also within our teams. 02:11 - 02:51 Spencer Horn : Yeah, I mean, really the focus of today is how to have team harmony And really doing that over political discourse and disharmony is really important for team productivity and work productivity and really our mental wellbeing. It is tense and I'm feeling it and I'm getting sucked into doom scrolling. I'm sure you are too. We'll talk about that. But I was just texting with my daughter this morning and our whole family is in on the discussion and she was talking about how in 2016, her husband was in Harvard Business School 02:51 - 02:52 Christian Napier: at the time. 02:54 - 03:30 Spencer Horn : This is a generalization, but she said most of the students had major meltdowns. And so there are going to be challenges. No matter who wins, there's going to be people that are frustrated and anxious. No matter what's going on, whoever wins, there's going to be some frustration. There is frustration now on all sides. It's impacting productivity. It's probably impacting your health and your sleep if you live in the United States. And quite frankly, what happens here in the United States impacts people all over the world. So there's probably some anxiety globally about what's happening here as 03:30 - 03:30 Spencer Horn : well. 03:32 - 04:19 Christian Napier: Absolutely. Spencer, you sent me an article that the title of that article was star psychologist Adam Grant just explained how not to lose your mind with anxiety and he cited some interesting statistics in this article. Some statistics from a Forbes health survey that was conducted and also from the American Psychiatric Association. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on those statistics. 60% of people saying election has had a slightly moderate or significant negative impact on their mental health and a bunch of others. I'll let you run with that, but I'm curious if what you're seeing in 04:20 - 04:26 Christian Napier: with your clients and people that you talk to both here domestically and abroad, if they're feeling that as well. 04:27 - 05:10 Spencer Horn : You know, I, I, it's everyone that I talk to individually is feeling some type of anxiety. And it seems like most people have very, very strong opinions on what's happening 1 way or the other. And there are very, very few that are kind of neutral and middle ground. And so the article also talks that 43% of people are more anxious than they were last year at this time. So, So many of us are anxious. And then there's another number, Christian, that I think is really interesting, and that is 73% of respondents claim that the election itself 05:10 - 05:54 Spencer Horn : is making them feel anxious because, and there's a couple of reasons. Obviously, everybody's worried about the future. You and I have talked about a phenomenon in the past on some of our episodes about how negative news has a stronger impact on us than positive news. And it's a survival mechanism. And Adam Grant talks about that. That's part of the neuroscience of what's happening right now. But we have discussed this phenomenon in the past and it's happening again today. Because, due to the fact that we are more concerned, we're actually more motivated by the potential risk or 05:56 - 06:20 Spencer Horn : the potential possibility or the possibility that something negative might happen over a positive reward, we spend more energy on that negative news. Therefore organizations, political planners, focus on messaging that taps into this human reality to get our emotions going 06:22 - 07:08 Christian Napier: to hype us up for their political candidate. What do you think about that? I totally agree. They cite this primate study, the snake in the grass versus the bananas in the trees, right, and how primates react more strongly to snakes in the grass as opposed to bananas and trees. And that, you know, social media and traditional media, they've really got that down to a science, right? They know that, I think there's a study that showed that if a headline was written positively or negatively, the negative headline generated much more engagement, right? Than the positive headline. Because 07:08 - 07:52 Christian Napier: that's how we're wired, right? We're just wired that way. And so, you know, Another thing that I thought was quite interesting about this was, you know, research showing that even a, a few minutes of negative news can have a, an impact on your mood for the entire day. You know, 3 minutes of news that that's negative can impact you 6 to 8 hours later, leaving you feeling worse, right? So these are very, very powerful, biological, neurological impulses that people have been able to exploit. And 07:52 - 07:53 Spencer Horn : exploit, I think, 07:53 - 07:53 Christian Napier: is the perfect word, Christian. Yes. Keep going. 07:53 - 07:55 Spencer Horn : No. So, so, 07:56 - 08:31 Christian Napier: you know, and, And it's very difficult for us to kind of wean ourselves off of that negativity because it is so kind of ingrained in us. It's wired into us, right? Yeah. You use the word doom scrolling, right? So, so, you know, it's a difficult thing, but, but we do it because it's, it's hard to turn our eyes away from that stuff. 08:32 - 09:12 Spencer Horn : Yeah. I it's, it's interesting. I was just talking to, I'm part of a, I have a, what's it called, a mastermind group, brilliant individuals on this mastermind group that I meet with once a month. And we're all dedicated to writing books and these are all very accomplished business people and 1 happens to be the president of the Chamber of Commerce in Utah County and he is specifically writing a book on all these just positive experiences that he's had. And, you know, he says every time he writes an article about a positive experience, he gets very little 09:12 - 09:54 Spencer Horn : interest. But if he writes something that's sensational and clickbaity or, you know, potentially salacious, then everybody wants to read that. He's like, I've got all these positive stories, but nobody's interested. And it's really a conundrum. I think that, yeah, there was even a, in this Adam Grant article, there was, they did a study done by Van Bavel's PhD student, Claire Robertson. They analyzed 22, 000 A-B tests on different headline options. So 1 of the things that I talk to this individual about is you can go to YouTube, for example, and you can test or you can 09:54 - 10:35 Spencer Horn : find which headlines are the most popular by clicks. And so A-B testing is you have 1 title, which is A, and then you have B title, and you see which people are interested in most by how often they click them. So in this research, they said, we found the exact same news story when it had a negative headline was generating more engagement and it was getting more clicks than if it had a positive headline. And so this is what we're talking about. And I have to admit, Christian, I start my day by watching stupid news because 10:35 - 11:16 Spencer Horn : I'm so invested. You know, what's going on? And I certainly don't know that's the best way to start my day. And I find personally that I'm, it's easier for me to watch those stories that are in line with my beliefs and harder to watch those stories that they're talking against things that I believe. I'm like, wow, you know, I'm curating stories that kind of fit my narrative and, you know, get me riled up. But I get more anxious when I watch those stories because I try to watch both sides and it's hard. I don't know. This 11:16 - 11:21 Spencer Horn : is not necessarily our topic. I'm just, you know, sharing my experience. I don't know what your experience is. 11:21 - 11:57 Christian Napier: No, I have the same experience. I, I granted, I don't really watch news on television, but I will consume media and other ways. And, and I find myself in the morning doing the same thing and what's interesting to me is you know I usually set aside some time to do some you know not to get too religious here right but but some scripture study or you know studying some some messages and sometimes I find myself really having to talk myself into doing it because I would rather doom scroll. I'd rather, but you know, because it's very 11:57 - 12:00 Christian Napier: interesting and it's important to me and impactful and whatnot. 12:02 - 12:03 Spencer Horn : It is to me too. 12:03 - 12:27 Christian Napier: It takes for me, it takes discipline to actually be able to say, okay, I need to, I need to shut this off. You know, I'm getting in my car, I'm driving to my office, and this is what I'm going to listen to in the car. I'm not going to listen to this. And I'm not perfect at that by any means. I'm just telling you, it's hard for me sometimes to actually switch it off in my brain, you know, and try to feed my brain something else. 12:27 - 13:04 Spencer Horn : Yeah, well, I am doing the same in the car. I mean, yesterday I drove a long ways, and so I try to always listen to a positive podcast. I say try because I don't always do that. But most of the time I succeed. But I'm also very focused on my faith and reading the scriptures. However, there's been a little bit of a problem with that, where we are in our studies right now, because it's end of the civilization type of discussions. Gosh, it's been a difficult time. I actually teach this in what we call gospel doctrine. 13:04 - 13:44 Spencer Horn : So I have to study it and prepare. I have to, I get to. And so I do find some of the positive lessons that have happened in past civilizations, from civilizations that were destroyed. So all of this is happening and converging at the same time and it's certainly stressful. So what do we do about it? Because Christian, not only is it individually hurting our mental health, it's also impacting our team productivity. So you asked me, you know, is this happening at work? You know, I am not having CEOs saying, you know, we've got this problem. I 13:44 - 13:53 Spencer Horn : know that they have other problems with team alignment. This is just adding to it. So they haven't specifically singled this out in my conversations with them to answer your question. 13:54 - 13:55 Christian Napier: Yet, 13:57 - 14:37 Spencer Horn : it's happening in cafes and in families and in homes and it's happening in work because I've got reports of it happening. So my experience is some research that I found from another article in Forms by Chris Westfall. And he cites some of the same studies that Adam Grant was studying from the American Psychology Association and listen to this she says 70% of adults say that the future of the nation is the number 1 cause of the stress in their lives Republicans and Democrats in the United States we have mostly 2 parties And I know some places 14:37 - 15:21 Spencer Horn : around the world have different types of democracies where they have a pure democracy and they have a percentage of cabinets that are made up of different parties. They have multiple parties. We have what's called a republic or really a representative democracy. And so all of us, Democrat and Republican, are united, this is interesting, we are united about having concern for the future. And I love the fact that she points that out and according to Lynn Buffka, a clinical psychologist at the American Psychology Association, the deputy chief of professional practice is saying that that unity is something 15:21 - 16:01 Spencer Horn : that we can build on. With the election just 1 week away, it's easy for political tension to spill over in the workplace. While voting takes the attention of a divided nation. And so work still has to get done, Christian, while this is happening in the workplace. And so, as you know, I mean, you in the workplace, I am, my clients, our clients, our organizations are seeking unity over political division. And we have to find common ground in order to be able to be productive at work. And so there are ways that we can do that. And 16:01 - 16:35 Spencer Horn : so what we want to talk about for the rest of the time, we're not going to, I don't know how long we're going to spend today, but I want to share just a couple of ideas for us to be able to improve mentally. And you've identified 1 and that is focus on, your faith or things that are important to you that are uplifting. But let's talk about a few ideas that businesses and leaders of teams can incorporate to help them improve productivity in the workplace. Let's do it. So let's start with the first 1. We've talked 16:35 - 17:23 Spencer Horn : about some of the causes, right? We have this natural bent on negativity. Get very clear, step number 1, get very clear about job descriptions and making sure that people know that is expressing a political viewpoint actually a part of your job description. And just explain, sometimes it's time to practice 5 finger management. What is 5 finger management? Christian, do you have, do you know? What is it? Taking your hand palms down like this and holding it over your mouth. All 5 fingers. Stop talking. Just stop talking. Put your hand over your mouth and stop. She says, 17:23 - 18:05 Spencer Horn : it takes just 5 fingers in the palm of your hand, place it over your mouth, just as we all have the ability to have conversation. Silence is always an option. And would silence be golden for you? Think about what would happen. There are many ways to share your political opinions. Go out and volunteer. Go out and register voters. I remember living in Las Vegas, going out and knocking on doors for my political candidate and getting involved in party primaries and going to represent your community. There's so many ways. You can donate to your favorite political campaign. 18:05 - 18:54 Spencer Horn : That's a great way for you to individually make a difference. If you want to make a difference, there's a way to do that. The challenge that we have is someone convinced against their will is what? Coerced. Of the same opinion still. And if they're coerced, they're really not changing their opinion. And so, if you're trying to convert, I see so many videos online of people that are just fighting with people that disagree with them. And that again is click bait and it gets views. But trying to convince people against their will is problematic. So my work 18:54 - 19:33 Spencer Horn : requires me to work with clients that have views across the political spectrum. And my goal is to help them regardless of what their political views are. And we work together great. We have great relationships. We have great conversations. And most of the time we avoid political discussions. So just keep your mouth shut on that. Focus on productivity. You can make a difference individually on your political front, but at work, focus on work. So that's number 1. Is it part of your job description to talk about it? If it is great, if it isn't, stop it. 19:33 - 20:09 Christian Napier: Yep. It's a great advice. It's great advice. Work doesn't have to be the place where you air all of the grievances and pontificate about why you feel the way you do, even though you feel very strongly and perhaps justifiably so, right? And I think there's an innate desire to feel heard and seen. And so sometimes we have an urge to speak up and it comes from a righteous place. But 20:10 - 20:13 Spencer Horn : yeah, I desire to make the world better, right? 20:14 - 20:40 Christian Napier: Yeah. It actually leads to the second point in the article that you sent to me, which is the, the Pyrrhic victory, right? Right. You can win the battle and lose the war. You, you know, you, you speak your mind, you, you say your piece. But in the end, what have you achieved? You haven't really convinced anybody to change their opinion and you've damaged relationships and you've just made everybody 20:40 - 21:24 Spencer Horn : feel more tense. You know, and you and I had a conversation at lunch the other day about the importance of relationships. It can be 1 of our greatest treasures that we have. And it certainly is the currency of success in business is the quality of our relationships. And so I think it's really important. And the challenge that we have is that, you know, you've got news organizations like NPR saying, there's a lot of messaging out there that's being generated by AI that is driving, these AI messaging is driving some public opinion. And the question is, can 21:24 - 22:06 Spencer Horn : you control the political opinions of your colleagues? And the answer is of course No, unless they're begging you to say, please help clarify what's going on. I think when it comes to voting, 1 of the biggest discussions we have is on constitutional amendments. For example, here in the state of Utah, we have 2 constitutional amendments that are on the ballot. And so I like to get into research and I spent almost 3 hours filling out my ballot. Why? Because I wanted to understand each candidate. I actually called my local Senate candidates on both parties. And 1 22:06 - 22:40 Spencer Horn : of the parties answered and the other 1 didn't. And I had a great conversation. And I actually voted for someone that is not my registered party. Because I agreed with their opinions and their policies. I try to actually do some research and not just listen to what is said on the media, do my own research, go to their websites, call them. And I think that's, We have to do the work to really enjoy our democracy And you can do that on your own 22:40 - 23:21 Christian Napier: Yeah, something I want to say about that because it was pointed out in another Another study it was kind of linked to the to the main article that you sent to me earlier, which was enunciated or articulated by Harvard Professor Steven Pinker, which is, don't aim to be right, aim to get it right. And this requires an amount of intellectual humility, right? So what you have done is exactly that. Hey, I'm gonna do the research and I'm gonna let that kind of guide me to where I want to go. It's better to get it right than 23:21 - 24:06 Christian Napier: it is to feel right. And oftentimes what we do is we just do what we feel, what this feels right. And I'm not discounting the importance of feeling, But at the same time, you know, to be able to kind of humble yourself and say, okay, I'm going to open my mind and I'm going to investigate different opinions and different people. And most importantly, I think, Spencer is that I wish I myself, but also more people would do this is go to the source. Yeah. Right. Because oftentimes what we consume on media is surrogate, opining about what 24:06 - 24:10 Christian Napier: other people have done And not actually going to the source, you know, so I go to their website, I go to their websites, I go to their profiles 24:10 - 24:25 Spencer Horn : and I call them. If I, if I, I mean, I can't call the presidential candidates. But so but I think that's that's absolutely so. 24:25 - 25:04 Christian Napier: So you can look and react to what they say primarily instead of looking to see what pundits say about what they said, right? So actually going to the source, I think is super important because it allows you to have a bit more unfiltered view. It's not filtered through the lenses and opinions of others. You get to experience that for yourself. But it does require, A, effort, and B, as I said, humility to be willing to do that. And so I commend you. You've set an awesome example, I think, for all of us to follow. 25:19 - 26:03 Spencer Horn : Well, like I said, we have a responsibility as members of any of the countries that we live in to enjoy so many rights. Those don't come without a cost And I think we have a responsibility. 1 last thing on don't attempt to pirate a Pyrrhic victory. We could go. We had a choir practice And 1 of our choir members said something political and ended up having to send a text to everybody apologizing and just saying, I'm so sorry if I offended anybody. So, you know, there's an organization as well where we don't want to, you know, 26:03 - 26:43 Spencer Horn : no matter what your faith, you know, in my faith, which happens to be Christian, we try to follow the teachings of Christ and who taught us to love everyone. And oh, I forgot what I was going to say. It was actually something about this, you know, this idea of offending others. And we have to do our best not to not to do that. And so it all that and I know what I was gonna say so we were told to love our enemies right and what better place to learn to love your enemies than at church 26:45 - 27:03 Spencer Horn : because how often have you been offended at church? So that's a great lesson for us. Love your enemies and I'm sorry, I hope I didn't get too religious for you. Okay, let's go to number 2. The question is, can you be fired at work, Christian? What do you think? 27:06 - 27:07 Christian Napier: Well, depends. 27:08 - 27:09 Spencer Horn : For speaking, you're, for speaking. 27:09 - 27:47 Christian Napier: Yeah, for speaking politics. So talk about politics, can I be fired at work? Yeah. Yeah. And it's a good question. I mean, on the 1 hand, you have a freedom of speech, right? We have a right to be able to articulate what we say. On the other hand, we don't want to be put in a position where we're creating a hostile work environment that makes people feel like people. You know, like that. And so, yeah, I know, the author of the article, you know, quotes, an employment attorney who says that, you know, most free speech rights 27:47 - 27:53 Christian Napier: generally don't apply at work, right? So we think, oh, well, that's how I have my- 27:53 - 27:55 Spencer Horn : The constitutional right. The constitutional right 27:55 - 28:07 Christian Napier: to say these things. I have this blanket protection, doesn't matter what the context is, But actually that's not necessarily a case, right? In a work setting. Because your behavior 28:07 - 28:19 Spencer Horn : and communication can be disruptive. And so in places, for example, that have at will, you know, employers can hire and fire at will, you can be fired for being disruptive or as you said, toxic. 28:21 - 28:27 Christian Napier: Absolutely. And so, you know, you need to take that into consideration before spouting off. 28:28 - 29:04 Spencer Horn : Yes, absolutely. So, and then the other, the other idea is to consider where you play if you want to win. So let me just quote a little bit of this paragraph here because I want to make sure I get this right. Trying to change someone's mind can be a recipe for a fight. We've been talking about this. There's an author of a book called Why We Were Polarized, Ezra Klein, says that partisanship can now be thought of as a mega identity with all the psychological and behavioral magnifications That implies almost all voters now have their minds 29:04 - 29:21 Spencer Horn : made up. You didn't need to persuade them of whom to vote for. Indeed, you could persuade them, you couldn't persuade them who to vote for. What do you think? Can we persuade people who to vote for who not to vote for 29:23 - 30:16 Christian Napier: well it's a really good question I think on an individual level and this is just me I'm just riffing here right yeah I think it's really really hard but at a macro level, we can see how, people use the tools that are available, you know, our technologies and so on and so forth, to help shape public opinion. And we can see the evolution of that over time. So I'll give an example here. And I don't want it to appear controversial, or as if I'm advocating 1 side or another. But look at the LGBTQ gay marriage. How 30:16 - 30:19 Christian Napier: has public opinion swayed on this issue over the 30:19 - 30:19 Christian Napier: last 20 30:19 - 30:57 Christian Napier: years? It's been, it's been significant, you know, even as, even as far back as the Obama administration, You know, you had the president of the city, president of the United States saying that he was against it. Right. And in 6, 7 years, it went the other way. You know, so I think it's a fallacy to say that people can't be persuaded 1 way or another, certainly probably not in a 5 minute dialogue. But over a long period of time with sustained messaging. And again, I'm not taking a position 1 way or another. I'm just saying that 30:57 - 31:24 Christian Napier: we have seen this in our lifetimes. We have seen people's attitudes towards certain things shift over time and it doesn't have to take a long time through the effective application of the tools that we have available to sway those opinions and so yeah I think in the micro it's very difficult. In the macro long run, people's opinions definitely can be swayed. 31:25 - 32:02 Spencer Horn : And I hear that, but the point here is when we're talking about the workplace, the whole point of this book and this article is trying to convert your office mates can create unnecessary confrontation and that just reduces team performance and team productivity. Let people come to do their own work and hopefully listen to voices that they trust and believe and if someone changes their mind, great. That means they're doing research and being thoughtful about something and I think that is perfectly appropriate. But in the workplace to do that, certainly a few days before the election, not 32:02 - 32:02 Spencer Horn : a good idea. 32:03 - 32:49 Christian Napier: Yeah, 1 other thing I'd like to mention about that Spencer, is there are initiatives that can be put in place in organizations that can be perceived by some people in the organization as politically motivated or politically adjacent right, so And again, I'm not trying to court controversy and I'm not taking a side here, but we saw in recent years large scale efforts to include DEI, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion efforts in corporations. And it's been met with mixed results. Why? Because you've got a certain percentage of the people in organizations who react very positively to it 32:49 - 33:30 Christian Napier: and certain percentage who react Negatively to it feeling like hey, you're trying to force values on me that I don't necessarily but totally agree with and And so I think we have to be cognizant of that in organizations and as leaders, that even when we do something that is well-meaning, let's make sure that we take into consideration where our people are at and take a very understanding approach, right? Because these things, they have courted controversy. And again, I'm not taking a side. I'm not saying 1 is right and 1 is wrong here. I'm just saying that 33:30 - 33:48 Christian Napier: sometimes in organizations, even if we're in our efforts to create safe workspaces for people, we can inadvertently create unsafe workspaces because we start bringing to surface things that have been kind of pushed down. They've been pushed down in organizations And we just have to be aware of that. 33:49 - 34:19 Spencer Horn : It's interesting you say this. There's actually, I mean, what's really going on in America right now, super interesting. You have, for example, labor unions who are typically voting 1 way as a, or endorsing 1 type of candidate are not endorsing them today because a majority of their members are not supportive of that decision. I think that kind of falls in line with what you're talking about, trying to make decisions that reduce divisiveness within your organization. Is that somewhat in line with that? Yeah, so I just kind of 34:19 - 34:58 Christian Napier: wanted to bring up that little nuance there because we're talking oftentimes about individual communication conversations we're having with our coworkers, but you deal with leadership, you're working with CEOs, and I think CEOs need to take care that, that the spaces that they're creating for people to be productive in are truly safe spaces and that we don't, you know, we just go in fully informed when we're trying to undertake an initiative, what the impacts of undertaking those initiatives might be and plan for those, even if they come from a place of benevolence, right? They come from a 34:58 - 35:06 Christian Napier: place of good intention. We have to just exercise some caution there. And again, I'm not taking sides, you know, I'm just- I 35:06 - 35:07 Christian Napier: think that's very- something we're seeing, you know, we're, we're seeing 35:07 - 35:08 Spencer Horn : it in, in states 35:09 - 35:47 Christian Napier: that are passing legislation kind of pushing back on these. We're seeing it in companies who are wrestling with the ramifications of trying to, you know, it's just a bit ironic sometimes. We're in an effort to be inclusive. The approach that we take inadvertently alienate some of our people, right? And so we just have to Be careful. That's all I'm saying there. 35:48 - 36:39 Spencer Horn : Absolutely right. Okay, so let's go on to the next suggestion. And I love this Christian, and I feel this is 1 that we can all get better at. And it's something that I teach when I talk to executives and senior leaders who have a propensity to talk rather than listen. And, you know, as older generations, we wanna teach the younger generations everything that they need to think, right? Because we have all the answers, and I say we in quotes, or have all the answers in quotes actually. Remember the value of listening. As senior executives, we can 36:39 - 37:21 Spencer Horn : learn so much from the younger generation. Imagine if we could just listen to each other more, what the outcomes would be rather than to just force again our beliefs and our worldview and our opinions on someone else, even in a corporate setting. Think of how much knowledge that the youth have today in technology and you can marry that with your experience and organizational knowledge and if you can marry those things you can create magic. But it requires you to actually stop and listen. And I think the same happens and is applied here in this political arena. 37:22 - 38:10 Spencer Horn : If someone has opinion that's different from you, be curious. Instead of just shutting them down, listen to what they have to say. And that's just a simple form of respect, Christian, that you respect somebody enough, especially people who disagree with you. We talked about our enemies. I think 1 of the greatest definitions of empathy that I have heard is that you respect your enemy enough to study them and their tendencies. You know, you think about, I was reading about, you know, Air Force pilots who don't value the talents and abilities of their enemy are more likely 38:10 - 38:27 Spencer Horn : to die than those that have respect for their, and isn't that interesting? I mean, that's actually a form of empathy to, to, to, to respect people that think different than you, to learn, to learn from them, to grow, and to be curious. Any thoughts that you have on that? 38:28 - 39:09 Christian Napier: I love this. You know, 1 thing that came to mind as you were talking was what does it mean to listen? You know, sometimes you know we hear this word listen but and I am guilty of this. A person is talking and I'm hearing what they're saying but in my mind I am formulating arguments to counter what they're saying. And I think in this context, Spencer, that's not really listening, right? That's not trying to understand, really understand a person and why they feel the way that they feel. You know, because if I feel the urge to 39:09 - 39:25 Christian Napier: just start taking off evidences in my head, so I'm gonna come back with this, I'm gonna come back with that, then I'm not really seeking to understand them right right I just want to I am storing ammunition I'm not listening 39:25 - 40:15 Spencer Horn : that's right and that's what happens a lot on social media if you look at social media all the clickbaits are you know we see these zingers that so-and-so destroys this MAGA individual or this woke person. And so it doesn't matter what side you're on, whether you're liberal or progressive or whatever it is, or conservative, your hero destroys, is what it always says, the opponent. And so, and they're always just a little short segment of a zinger, right? And we're just, we have this low attention span, small attention span. And I find this is my observation of 40:15 - 40:39 Spencer Horn : my behavior that when I see people who are speaking slowly and having thoughtful comments on social media, I zip over it because I just don't feel like I have time. And I think that's terrible. So sometimes I actually force myself to slow down and say, OK, what are they saying? You've experienced that. 40:41 - 41:16 Christian Napier: Yeah, I've I've experienced that, too. This is, again, just my own personal experience. But I find that that type of clickbait so and so destroys this other person to be it becomes exhausting because it always seems like this is the you know I'm I'm publishing this video because this is the 1 video that is going to change everybody's opinion that's going to change everybody's opinion right this is the 1 that takes down Trump 41:16 - 41:16 Christian Napier: or This is the 41:16 - 41:35 Christian Napier: 1 that takes down Trump or this is the 1 that takes down Kamala Harris, you know, and this is it. And and and even from the same the same influencers, you know, they will they will have like 12 of these in a day every day so and so destroys 41:35 - 41:43 Spencer Horn : that's the power of AI because it's able to make all these little these little short videos that are our clickbait and it's filling the airwaves 41:44 - 42:23 Christian Napier: okay well you've been at it this destroying thing for months or even years like are you really getting anywhere with this I mean I I just I just find that personally to be exhausting and I and I just I can't really I don't I just can't lend my time to those anymore because I can't believe the headline because we, we have seen these videos for months and months and months, and we're still very polarized and everything's within the margin of error and so these are not making a difference they're not making a significant impact I don't 42:23 - 42:38 Christian Napier: think and and so you know just kind of cut it out folks with the so-and-so destroys somebody else or you know this spells the end for this candidate because they said this or that or whatever. 42:47 - 42:47 Christian Napier: It's like, 42:47 - 43:29 Spencer Horn : Hey Brian, thanks for listening. So we threw your comment up on the screen. Really appreciate your thoughts and I'd love to have questions from the audience. Anybody who's listening, we really appreciate when you chime in. But here's what I kind of closing on this, remember the value of listening. Just remember in life and in business, where you put your attention is where you find your results. And right now, my customers, my clients that I coach, that I consult with, that I speak to, they deserve my attention. Just like your team, Christian, deserves your attention. CEOs, executives, 43:29 - 44:10 Spencer Horn : team leaders, your team needs you focused on solving problems for your clients that ultimately make the world a better place. And you need to be leading and creating the direction and the culture that creates an environment where people can perform at their best and really can concentrate on solving the problems of the business. So don't fight pirate, you know, or parrots, however you like to pronounce that, parrots victories. Don't try to change the minds of other people. Focus on what matters most. Listen more. Focus on solving the problems of business and not politics. I think those 44:10 - 44:52 Spencer Horn : are some great ideas. And I want to end with some of the suggestions that Adam Grant gave. And I absolutely love them. And there was a, they did a study in the article what they actually paid people. Can you imagine? I didn't get paid to do this, but they paid people to stop following certain toxic people on the internet. And what's interesting is they found just 3% of social media users are toxic. However, those users generate 33% of the content populating our feed. So there's an inordinate amount of information coming on our feeds from just a 44:52 - 45:34 Spencer Horn : very few people. 1% of communities, and this is worldwide, launch 74% of conflict. 0.1% of users spread 80% of fake news. And so what they did is they did this experiment. It will pay you, stop listening to these negative influencers and instead replace it with positive. So my wife and I share food, you know, these food videos all the time, because whenever we're going, we're going to Chicago or we're going to to Cyprus where you're going, we actually follow all these food Instagram posts that are channels or accounts and we share these with each other. Like, 45:34 - 46:12 Spencer Horn : oh, we just can't wait to go have this or make this. We actually download recipes all the time. We've got like the hundred best different types of, you know, pizzas or pies or whatever, and then we start making them. And so we share those kinds of things. But the other thing that we do is Jan and I both follow things like NASA, National Geographic. And 1 of the suggestions that Adam Grant and his team are saying is replace this anxiety with awe. Instead of following these clickbaiters, follow when they talk about the universe and the heavens 46:12 - 46:44 Spencer Horn : and the stars and nature. I find this to be true. Christian, 1 of the things I love best about mountain biking is just the sense of awe that I have when I get to the top of the mountain and I say, I did that, and I look out over this beautiful valley and I can just, you know, I'm up there, the air is clean, it's cool. I see animals, I see God's creations. I just feel good. And I've replaced this anxiety with gratitude, with wonder and with awe. 46:45 - 47:12 Christian Napier: What do you think? I love it. I remember reading that as well. And 1 of the things that was really interested about that is this PhD student, or no, the professor, Jay Van Babel, who at NYU, a psychologist who conducted this study, said it was the most powerful intervention they've ever seen in the lab and that the effects of doing this last 47:12 - 47:12 Spencer Horn : over 6 months. 47:12 - 47:12 Christian Napier: How long 47:12 - 47:13 Spencer Horn : did it last? 47:13 - 47:15 Christian Napier: Over 6 months, right? 47:15 - 47:22 Spencer Horn : So in other words, when people stopped listening to negative stuff on the internet, they had less anxiety and were happier for how long? 47:22 - 47:55 Christian Napier: For more than 6 months, but it wasn't just stopping the negative stuff. It was replacing it with the positive awe inspiring stuff because you, as you said, rightly so, you get to the top of mountains and I've seen pictures of you at the summit of various peaks and you know what you see is a an incredible backdrop right your perspective changes you increase your elevation you see more and and you get this sense of grandeur when you're at a peak at 11, 000 feet. Or if you're flying in an airplane over Mount Rainier and you look 47:55 - 48:14 Christian Napier: down and you see the mountain as you're flying into Seattle, right? You're or you're you're you're you're up above the clouds and and and you can almost see the curvature of the earth. I mean it just is awe-inspiring. 48:15 - 48:48 Spencer Horn : Flying in and out of Seattle my I've always seen the Olympic Peninsula and I have wanted for years and years and years to go. And my wife and I went to Olympic National Park last year for the first time, blew our minds. 1 of our favorite national parks of all time. So we, whenever we travel, we actually have a, a scrape, a, a poster that's framed in our house of all 63, I think 63 or 4 national parks in the United States. And we, we've been to 21. And so whenever we're traveling for business or anything, 48:48 - 48:50 Spencer Horn : we try to throw in a little bit of awe. 48:52 - 49:34 Christian Napier: And yeah, it's just amazing that the impact that it has. And so I'm glad we're closing on this because It's absolutely true when we replace the negativity with this positivity that's anchored in awe and wonder and grandeur, it gives us a different perspective on things and it helps us put things into perspective too. You know, you see these mountains that have been, they've existed for millions of years, you know, and things will come and go. And let's focus on the things that really matter. Tying it back to the beginning. What really matters are the relationships that 49:34 - 49:37 Christian Napier: we have, right? And, and so 49:37 - 49:38 Spencer Horn : protect those relationships. 49:40 - 49:50 Christian Napier: Yeah. Avoid becoming prisoner of the moment and, and focus on the things that really have long-term personal value to us, I think is absolutely vital. So this has been a great company. Can I throw something 49:50 - 50:28 Spencer Horn : out, Christians, before we shut down? I'm going to say something that you and I have been friends for over 20 years. And you are 1 of the people I respect most in the world. I think you are an incredible mind, great listener. And yet you and I disagree a lot on political, just political topics. And I think that's brilliant. And I think that's 1 of the, I think that's something we need more of. As a matter of fact, you and I are bringing a guest on, on Monday. We're actually having another podcast on Monday. We think 50:28 - 50:36 Spencer Horn : this topic is so important listeners that we've invited a friend. Do you wanna talk about that or do you want me to talk about that? 50:36 - 50:58 Christian Napier: Oh, I'm super excited to have our conversation on Monday on election eve here in the United States. We've got a special guest returning to the show, Hall of Fame speaker, 1 of the most funny, intelligent, talented, entertaining people you could ever meet and genuine people that you 50:58 - 51:00 Spencer Horn : never meet just Author 51:00 - 51:43 Christian Napier: of a book called the promise and he lived his life by this Jason Hewlett is going to be our guest and and he's had some recent experiences Political experiences that have had some material consequences for him And I'm really eager to explore that, his experiences that he's had, and see how we, even coming from different sides of the political spectrum can find unity in a very divided world. So we're really eager to continue the conversation. I can't wait to talk. 51:43 - 52:06 Spencer Horn : Yeah. Well said, Christian. And the title of that episode is building bridges, the power of civil discourse in a divided world. So we're going to continue this theme with Jason's perspectives and what's been happening. He has been singing and talking and presenting in front of thousands, tens of thousands of people around the country. And so I think this 52:06 - 52:24 Christian Napier: is gonna be such a great episode. Super looking forward to it. And I thank you listeners, viewers, subscribers. We're so grateful to you for joining us. Please continue to like and subscribe to our podcast and we'll catch you again soon. See 52:45 - 52:45 Christian Napier: you