WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.060 --> 00:00:06.110 ​ CJ: Welcome to Build and Learn. 00:00:06.110 --> 00:00:07.050 My name is CJ. 00:00:07.458 --> 00:00:08.218 Colin: And I'm Colin. 00:00:08.238 --> 00:00:11.108 And today we are joined by Chelsea Otakan. 00:00:11.238 --> 00:00:14.328 Chelsea is a product designer and front end developer. 00:00:14.598 --> 00:00:19.638 She is also a self-proclaimed lover of design systems, writing code, red 00:00:19.638 --> 00:00:23.268 pandas, karaoke, and learning new things. 00:00:23.273 --> 00:00:24.618 Welcome to the show, Chelsea. 00:00:25.623 --> 00:00:25.973 Chelsea: Hi. 00:00:26.203 --> 00:00:29.053 I do love all those things that has stayed the same. 00:00:29.548 --> 00:00:33.908 Colin: So far on this show, we've talked a lot about software development mostly 00:00:33.913 --> 00:00:38.078 in terms of like programming languages and tools, culture, those kinds of things. 00:00:38.128 --> 00:00:41.878 If you're just joining us, you can go check those out in our show notes. 00:00:42.308 --> 00:00:45.578 But this week we wanted to kind of turn it on its head a little bit and dive 00:00:45.578 --> 00:00:50.328 into Chelsea's approach to designing and building things for the web. 00:00:50.458 --> 00:00:53.758 So if you've been listening to the show for a while we're gonna mix it up a little 00:00:53.758 --> 00:00:56.428 bit and yeah, we're excited to dig in. 00:00:57.028 --> 00:01:01.128 Chelsea: Yeah, so I, I work at Lattice so if you're not familiar 00:01:01.128 --> 00:01:05.208 with Lattice, we build kinda like performance kind of software. 00:01:05.213 --> 00:01:11.158 So software to do performance reviews, feedback things like that at your company. 00:01:11.208 --> 00:01:13.398 I've been there for about a year. 00:01:13.578 --> 00:01:15.438 I joined last January. 00:01:15.698 --> 00:01:18.368 And before that I was working with CJ at Stripe. 00:01:18.768 --> 00:01:22.518 In terms of things that are relevant to me, I think the things you listed 00:01:22.518 --> 00:01:25.218 off were, are still my interests. 00:01:25.438 --> 00:01:28.018 But I feel like a lot has changed in my life since then. 00:01:28.118 --> 00:01:30.613 Mostly I have a one and a half year old. 00:01:30.613 --> 00:01:32.533 That keeps me very, very busy. 00:01:32.533 --> 00:01:33.403 Her name's Penny. 00:01:33.883 --> 00:01:36.913 Yeah, I got a snotty, little toddler to runaround after, so that's 00:01:36.913 --> 00:01:39.093 like a lot of my life lately. 00:01:40.273 --> 00:01:42.393 CJ: Having kids changes perspectives so much. 00:01:42.393 --> 00:01:46.383 I remember yeah, it kind of, I, there's like also some research about 00:01:46.383 --> 00:01:49.893 like how it like literally changes the chemistry in your brain, even as 00:01:50.373 --> 00:01:52.023 like the non birthing parent, right? 00:01:52.023 --> 00:01:55.323 Like when you see the kid as a baby and they're like, you know, skin to skin or 00:01:55.323 --> 00:01:57.273 whatever, it just like changes everything. 00:01:57.273 --> 00:01:59.763 And so, yeah, not surprised to hear that some of those 00:01:59.763 --> 00:02:01.173 priorities have shifted a bit 00:02:01.838 --> 00:02:02.258 Chelsea: Yeah. 00:02:02.588 --> 00:02:02.768 Yeah. 00:02:02.768 --> 00:02:05.858 It might be like above red pandas, but you 00:02:05.893 --> 00:02:06.383 CJ: Okay. 00:02:07.868 --> 00:02:08.708 Chelsea: the jury's out. 00:02:08.708 --> 00:02:10.388 Like it depends on the day. 00:02:11.133 --> 00:02:11.313 CJ: Yeah, 00:02:11.348 --> 00:02:11.618 Chelsea: day? 00:02:12.773 --> 00:02:14.273 Colin: karaoke is just in there somewhere. 00:02:14.273 --> 00:02:15.533 It's so something that you can do, 00:02:15.748 --> 00:02:16.658 Chelsea: We do together. 00:02:16.778 --> 00:02:17.228 Really? 00:02:17.228 --> 00:02:18.128 So, you know, 00:02:18.693 --> 00:02:19.293 CJ: Nice. 00:02:19.353 --> 00:02:20.043 That's amazing. 00:02:20.213 --> 00:02:21.503 Colin: get Penny into that early. 00:02:21.668 --> 00:02:24.278 Chelsea: Yeah, I'm actually in my basement and our home 00:02:24.278 --> 00:02:25.988 karaoke setup is like over there, 00:02:26.943 --> 00:02:27.433 CJ: Nice. 00:02:28.149 --> 00:02:30.009 I guess that's a good thing to start talking about. 00:02:30.009 --> 00:02:31.119 What is karaoke night? 00:02:31.219 --> 00:02:32.334 Chelsea: Oh gosh, I forgot about 00:02:32.384 --> 00:02:35.804 I guess that's sort of kind of related to my story too. 00:02:36.164 --> 00:02:41.594 So background, I started off in design, but I'm not, I'm not, I don't 00:02:41.594 --> 00:02:44.324 have like a formal design background, so I didn't go to design school. 00:02:44.714 --> 00:02:48.734 I started making websites when I was like in high school. 00:02:48.834 --> 00:02:53.664 I was super into neo pets and a actually, as I progressed with my career, I 00:02:53.664 --> 00:02:56.904 found like many other people, like that's how they got into design or 00:02:57.294 --> 00:03:02.064 coding or tech in general is like some neo pets was somewhere in your path. 00:03:02.064 --> 00:03:03.204 And it was definitely in mine. 00:03:03.634 --> 00:03:06.914 And I was like into live journal and blogs and all that stuff. 00:03:06.914 --> 00:03:11.139 And so I'd been doing that for a while and then, I went to college and was 00:03:11.139 --> 00:03:13.329 like figuring out what I wanted to do. 00:03:13.329 --> 00:03:17.229 It was like maybe biology, but it wasn't really feeling right. 00:03:17.289 --> 00:03:22.329 And then I needed a job and so I like walked into what I thought was 00:03:22.329 --> 00:03:26.949 like the magazine office, but it was actually the newspaper office and 00:03:26.949 --> 00:03:28.009 someone was like, we need someone. 00:03:29.469 --> 00:03:34.079 We need another person on our website and let's like, wait here, I'll go get the, 00:03:34.829 --> 00:03:39.629 the guy that runs our website and it was Colin and he like, just gave me a job. 00:03:39.929 --> 00:03:40.709 I was like, whoa. 00:03:40.949 --> 00:03:41.399 Okay. 00:03:41.659 --> 00:03:46.759 And that's kind of was the first time I like, figured out that this 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:49.549 was something people would pay you for and was like a career path. 00:03:49.999 --> 00:03:51.469 Kind of fast forward, sorry, I went roundabout. 00:03:51.769 --> 00:03:55.129 I was doing design for a while and I've always been sort of, sort of 00:03:55.129 --> 00:03:58.579 a technical designer, but never really progressed past, like copy and 00:03:58.579 --> 00:04:04.319 pasting a little bit of JavaScript and writing CSS and was starting to 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:05.999 get more interested in programming. 00:04:06.119 --> 00:04:08.249 And then I, I work somewhere that. 00:04:09.839 --> 00:04:12.089 Sort of like paid for me to do a front end development. 00:04:12.239 --> 00:04:14.879 Like course it was through, I think it's called something else 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:17.229 now, but it was through bloc.io. 00:04:17.254 --> 00:04:21.059 So I did this like self-paced course and they give you a mentor and 00:04:21.389 --> 00:04:24.629 I really just wanted to get over that hump of like, can I start. 00:04:25.424 --> 00:04:29.624 Like solving problems on my own without like just copy and pasting 00:04:29.624 --> 00:04:33.554 something and then vaguely editing code and like crossing my fingers. 00:04:33.554 --> 00:04:35.684 Like, can I actually read code and understand how it 00:04:35.684 --> 00:04:37.664 works and, and problem solve? 00:04:37.664 --> 00:04:42.514 And so that really helped me get over that hump and the like little karaoke 00:04:42.734 --> 00:04:45.044 night app, which never really launched. 00:04:45.194 --> 00:04:47.894 But that was sort of like my test project of like, okay. 00:04:48.989 --> 00:04:53.009 , they give you like structured projects, but can I make something up and then like 00:04:53.419 --> 00:04:55.099 and, and figure out how to work on it? 00:04:55.099 --> 00:04:58.999 And I think I got like 80% of the way there, but never really launched it. 00:04:58.999 --> 00:05:00.349 Like I got the shape of the app. 00:05:00.349 --> 00:05:04.129 I got like, like a single page app running and then I started trying to 00:05:04.129 --> 00:05:11.104 write scrapers for like music databases to try to like scrape the databases 00:05:11.109 --> 00:05:13.084 and, and put together lists and stuff. 00:05:13.084 --> 00:05:17.284 And so so yeah, I was just trying to find something that I like was really 00:05:17.284 --> 00:05:19.324 into at the time, and that was karaoke. 00:05:19.564 --> 00:05:24.087 So and if you've ever tried to use a karaoke app, it like the 00:05:24.087 --> 00:05:25.827 karaoke DJs like, download this app. 00:05:26.187 --> 00:05:27.297 They're really bad. 00:05:27.507 --> 00:05:28.707 They're like, so bad. 00:05:29.872 --> 00:05:32.752 Colin: The best way to do side projects is to find something that you're 00:05:32.812 --> 00:05:36.322 passionate about and you're gonna spend more time than you would on anything 00:05:36.322 --> 00:05:39.982 else to figure it out because you, you want, you want it for yourself. 00:05:40.187 --> 00:05:40.677 Chelsea: Yeah. 00:05:40.707 --> 00:05:41.197 Yeah. 00:05:41.747 --> 00:05:43.757 CJ: Yeah, that was a, I was gonna say, that's like a, there's a 00:05:43.757 --> 00:05:46.607 couple like really interesting nuggets in that, in that backstory. 00:05:46.607 --> 00:05:49.437 Like one is build side projects cuz you'll learn stuff. 00:05:49.437 --> 00:05:51.717 But the other is that you didn't go to design school. 00:05:51.717 --> 00:05:53.307 So like if, yeah. 00:05:53.337 --> 00:05:56.292 I guess like, I'm curious if you were to restart today, would you 00:05:56.292 --> 00:05:58.272 recommend a certain design school? 00:05:58.272 --> 00:06:03.042 Do they have like boot camps for learning design or is this something that people 00:06:03.042 --> 00:06:05.552 usually kind of pick up on the side? 00:06:06.734 --> 00:06:08.864 Chelsea: It's hard for me to say and I, I feel like I've. 00:06:10.124 --> 00:06:15.014 I've mentored a few designers and it's been tough for me to like, 00:06:15.014 --> 00:06:20.024 relate my experience cuz I think that the industry is just so different. 00:06:20.324 --> 00:06:22.694 I'm not saying I'm old, but it makes me feel old. 00:06:22.964 --> 00:06:27.914 . But like I, I mentored an intern at Stripe and she went to Carnegie Mellon 00:06:27.914 --> 00:06:31.004 and , you know, she was asking me questions about like, like what, in, 00:06:31.064 --> 00:06:36.014 like what internship did you, how did you decide where to do your internship? 00:06:36.014 --> 00:06:41.414 And I was like, I went to journalism school so that like we had to do 00:06:41.414 --> 00:06:45.794 internships, but like the way I did my internship was like, it was required, 00:06:46.244 --> 00:06:51.404 but I just took my job that I was do, like I had a part-time job at the museum 00:06:52.064 --> 00:06:53.984 and I just asked them to sign my in. 00:06:54.794 --> 00:06:58.764 Papers because like I already had a job that they were like paying me to do. 00:06:58.764 --> 00:07:05.484 And so I, I, I didn't go to like, I think today you like go to like Carnegie Mellon. 00:07:05.634 --> 00:07:07.434 They're like schools for product design. 00:07:07.704 --> 00:07:11.844 A lot of people go to, and then they had these like internship fairs, which I went 00:07:11.849 --> 00:07:16.104 to Grace Hopper one year and like saw the, they have like an internship fair hall. 00:07:16.134 --> 00:07:18.384 And that was just like, it blew my mind. 00:07:18.384 --> 00:07:22.539 It was like, like all these companies like Apple and Workday and, and they 00:07:22.539 --> 00:07:24.639 just had all these booths and endless stripe like I was there with them. 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:30.159 We had the booth and it's just like these leagues of interns like interviewing like, 00:07:30.429 --> 00:07:34.479 like a hundred people in line to interview at Apple and they're just like standing 00:07:34.479 --> 00:07:38.139 in line and there's a guy at a counter like doing an inter a quick interview 00:07:38.139 --> 00:07:39.219 with them and they're like, next. 00:07:39.579 --> 00:07:42.969 And then like they just go to like 50 companies that day or whatever 00:07:42.969 --> 00:07:44.289 and try to get internships. 00:07:45.489 --> 00:07:49.959 In turn these companies are like, are like banging to like work here, 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:54.699 like we want you to, and I did not have that experience like at all. 00:07:54.969 --> 00:07:58.419 So a part of it is like hard for me to say cuz I didn't go to design school. 00:07:58.419 --> 00:08:02.529 So I actually, I can't say what the value or not value of design school is. 00:08:02.529 --> 00:08:06.369 I feel like I can't really say what that is, but I think that. 00:08:07.299 --> 00:08:11.799 I think one of the values of my path and, and to maybe like, fill the gaps 00:08:11.799 --> 00:08:15.099 from earlier, like, I went, I went to work at the newspaper and then 00:08:15.099 --> 00:08:21.589 I decided to like join the J school which is the journalism school at UNR. 00:08:21.659 --> 00:08:25.039 And I, I would say the journalism school at UNR is more. 00:08:25.919 --> 00:08:27.569 does more broad communications. 00:08:27.569 --> 00:08:29.279 So there's like an advertising path. 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:33.299 There's like print journalism, there's, so there's a few different paths. 00:08:33.299 --> 00:08:35.229 And I I didn't choose a path. 00:08:35.229 --> 00:08:41.169 I kind of decided to get a more general degree and then so I got to sort of 00:08:41.169 --> 00:08:43.299 like pick classes from any of the paths. 00:08:43.629 --> 00:08:47.874 And one of the classes was a design class and . Bonnie was a sort 00:08:47.874 --> 00:08:53.384 of like design professor who had joined the J school, I think in my, 00:08:53.384 --> 00:08:55.094 like, sophomore year of college. 00:08:56.174 --> 00:09:00.164 And so I just sort of like latched on to what he was doing. 00:09:00.524 --> 00:09:05.239 But I took her all the classes that she taught and then did a like, 00:09:05.239 --> 00:09:08.329 I forgot what it was called, but basically a, a like independent study. 00:09:08.329 --> 00:09:14.509 Me and another another designer who was in the J school, Kevin Jones, who 00:09:14.509 --> 00:09:18.919 I think you guys, you guys know, like me and Kevin were kind of like doing 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:20.299 similar things when we were in college. 00:09:20.299 --> 00:09:23.959 So we did an independent study with Bonnie and just sort of like made 00:09:23.959 --> 00:09:28.909 stuff, well, like had few peers to make stuff and did, and she like kind 00:09:28.909 --> 00:09:30.889 of like made up projects for us and. 00:09:32.299 --> 00:09:34.039 and yeah, so I kind of like chose that path. 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:39.769 And then and then I, while I was in college, I was also working like part-time 00:09:39.774 --> 00:09:43.889 design jobs, so I was contracting I worked at Twelve Horses with Colin 00:09:43.889 --> 00:09:49.929 again, sort of Colin got me like my first two jobs, so hey and like contracted 00:09:49.934 --> 00:09:52.209 around with different companies in Reno. 00:09:52.309 --> 00:09:56.964 And then I started doing like volunteer ui work with wordpress.org. 00:09:57.084 --> 00:09:59.304 And so my first job outta college was at WordPress. 00:09:59.304 --> 00:10:03.474 I kind of had started working within the community there and doing open source 00:10:03.474 --> 00:10:07.344 work and then got to know everybody there and, and got a job there. 00:10:07.344 --> 00:10:10.554 So that was, that was sort of how I landed my first job. 00:10:10.914 --> 00:10:13.319 So it's a atypical path, I think. 00:10:13.659 --> 00:10:18.939 But at the time, , the typical paths that I've learned exist. 00:10:18.939 --> 00:10:20.649 Like they weren't really there. 00:10:21.109 --> 00:10:23.564 I have a hard time giving advice on like how you would do it today. 00:10:23.594 --> 00:10:26.234 I just like, was like, how can I do more of this? 00:10:26.234 --> 00:10:30.404 Or when, you know, when I joined the newspaper and I was like really 00:10:30.404 --> 00:10:34.724 into, into doing web stuff and I was like, okay, how do I do more of this? 00:10:34.994 --> 00:10:38.804 Either in this job ended up working at Twelve Horses and so it was 00:10:38.804 --> 00:10:44.204 really like trying to evaluate like what do I wanna do more of? 00:10:44.204 --> 00:10:46.654 And then like, how do I just like keep going down that rabbit hole? 00:10:47.384 --> 00:10:49.404 Colin: Yeah, the industry has definitely gotten more mature. 00:10:49.404 --> 00:10:52.214 I mean now we have boot camps for all like data scientists 00:10:52.219 --> 00:10:54.024 and design and all these things. 00:10:54.024 --> 00:10:57.054 But like, you know, thinking back like I was actually in the business 00:10:57.059 --> 00:11:01.344 school because I also couldn't really find, like, there was no program for 00:11:01.344 --> 00:11:02.904 people who were building for the web. 00:11:02.964 --> 00:11:06.804 And I ended up working with the J School as well cuz they were. 00:11:07.044 --> 00:11:10.284 They were kind of like a startup in that like newspapers were dying. 00:11:10.674 --> 00:11:14.214 They had to reinvent themselves, they had to be on that bleeding edge. 00:11:14.214 --> 00:11:17.184 And so you and I got exposure to web through that. 00:11:17.284 --> 00:11:20.674 There was a grad program that was like, Hey, we're playing with this thing Google 00:11:20.674 --> 00:11:24.784 released called the Google Maps API like, can you figure out how this works? 00:11:24.784 --> 00:11:29.724 And we were like doing like, like realtime news on a map, like with 00:11:29.724 --> 00:11:32.754 pins and stuff and like using the first version of the api. 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:33.414 And I actually, they're. 00:11:34.064 --> 00:11:34.904 , we'll pay you for this. 00:11:34.904 --> 00:11:37.574 And it was like weird to be like, oh, I can get paid to code. 00:11:38.054 --> 00:11:38.984 And you're totally right. 00:11:38.984 --> 00:11:43.664 Like now there are those, these like paths you can follow and like little guideposts. 00:11:43.664 --> 00:11:47.924 Your website does a really good job of kind of doing a few things, showing 00:11:47.954 --> 00:11:51.894 some things that you've done over your career at different companies but then 00:11:51.894 --> 00:11:57.324 you also outlined some philosophies that you've clearly like developed over 00:11:57.324 --> 00:12:01.084 all of your time from you know, from the newspaper all the way since today. 00:12:01.084 --> 00:12:04.234 And so I thought it might be good for us to, to dig into some of those. 00:12:04.234 --> 00:12:07.564 And you, in fact, digging deep is, is one that you just mentioned. 00:12:07.994 --> 00:12:09.524 And, and one of the ones that you have up. 00:12:10.574 --> 00:12:12.044 Chelsea: Is that really one that I wrote down? 00:12:12.044 --> 00:12:13.034 And then I just said it. 00:12:13.259 --> 00:12:13.739 Colin: It is. 00:12:13.739 --> 00:12:13.889 Yeah. 00:12:13.889 --> 00:12:14.844 So we'll just skip 00:12:14.844 --> 00:12:15.324 to that one. 00:12:15.324 --> 00:12:17.514 So, so don't be afraid to dig deep. 00:12:17.614 --> 00:12:19.144 Chelsea: I've wrote, I wrote these a while ago. 00:12:19.194 --> 00:12:19.374 Colin: Yeah. 00:12:19.374 --> 00:12:21.534 I mean, where, where I'm at in my career. 00:12:21.534 --> 00:12:25.044 They're resonating with me very well, so I, I appreciate that they exist here. 00:12:25.044 --> 00:12:28.174 And we'll put a link to your website in the show notes, so you can also 00:12:28.179 --> 00:12:32.224 check out karaoke night and the cool designs that are on there for that. 00:12:32.224 --> 00:12:32.554 So, 00:12:32.944 --> 00:12:34.234 Chelsea: It's all very dated content. 00:12:34.234 --> 00:12:35.014 Okay, everybody. 00:12:35.609 --> 00:12:38.279 Colin: We can jump into the first one mostly because of this tweet 00:12:38.699 --> 00:12:42.419 that you also linked here, which is "Ship Quickly and Ship for the User" 00:12:43.019 --> 00:12:47.379 and the, tweet that you link to is building a skateboard, not a wheel. 00:12:48.869 --> 00:12:49.199 Chelsea: Yeah. 00:12:49.289 --> 00:12:54.269 I, I feel like this has been, I think at the time I hadn't heard 00:12:54.269 --> 00:12:58.079 it in a lot of places, but now I hear, I hear this to like build 00:12:58.079 --> 00:12:59.699 a skateboard, not a wheel thing. 00:13:00.149 --> 00:13:04.569 And . I think at the time that I wrote this, I just, I had just come 00:13:04.569 --> 00:13:08.109 off working at a company where like you were just really, really like 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:10.689 build fast, build fast, build fast. 00:13:10.989 --> 00:13:14.109 But the things we were putting out in the world were like not resonating. 00:13:14.439 --> 00:13:18.039 And I think it's because, I mean, in retrospect it was because 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:22.029 we were putting things out that we're just like unfinished. 00:13:22.419 --> 00:13:24.279 They weren't whole product. 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:27.524 They didn't provide like, a whole value set. 00:13:27.524 --> 00:13:29.834 We had sort of like, okay, here's the thing. 00:13:30.074 --> 00:13:33.134 We had sort of mapped out like, here's the product we think will provide value, 00:13:33.194 --> 00:13:35.954 and then we're gonna ship that part first, and then like this part over 00:13:35.954 --> 00:13:37.814 here, and then that part over there. 00:13:37.964 --> 00:13:39.104 We really prioritize that. 00:13:39.104 --> 00:13:43.124 I think in terms of like what would be the easiest versus what. 00:13:43.986 --> 00:13:47.131 , what is like an entire experience that would actually deliver value? 00:13:47.136 --> 00:13:50.131 So the like, I think a lot of people are familiar with this, but I can 00:13:50.221 --> 00:13:54.571 sort of like harp on it if there's anyone who's not like, but like 00:13:54.571 --> 00:13:56.221 if you wanna build a car, right? 00:13:56.581 --> 00:14:00.001 Your first version might look like a skateboard because someone can ride 00:14:00.006 --> 00:14:01.531 a skateboard and like get somewhere. 00:14:02.341 --> 00:14:05.781 The first version shouldn't look, shouldn't be a wheel because you can. 00:14:06.706 --> 00:14:10.486 If you have a wheel, you then still have to build like the rest of the car. 00:14:10.486 --> 00:14:14.836 Like it's not in itself valuable until you build something else with it. 00:14:15.316 --> 00:14:18.256 And so I think what I was trying to say, really. 00:14:19.541 --> 00:14:22.621 and you asked early if there's like any different philosophies and I think 00:14:22.621 --> 00:14:26.761 maybe I'll like add one and that one is like everything is a trade off. 00:14:27.421 --> 00:14:31.441 And I think this one is kind more trying to get it at at that is like 00:14:31.801 --> 00:14:36.451 to, if you wanna be fast and there's so much language about shipping quickly, 00:14:36.721 --> 00:14:41.311 and I think especially in early stage startups that is really critical, 00:14:41.821 --> 00:14:43.441 but you have to ship something whole. 00:14:43.801 --> 00:14:46.111 You can't just like ship a piece and expect people to 00:14:46.111 --> 00:14:47.641 know what to do with the piece. 00:14:48.031 --> 00:14:50.011 It's not their job to figure out what to do with it. 00:14:50.011 --> 00:14:54.181 It's your job to like show what value you bring with it. 00:14:54.241 --> 00:14:57.391 And so so yeah, I think that was like particularly something I was struggling 00:14:57.391 --> 00:15:02.791 with, like at, at the company I just worked at, which was feeling like, not 00:15:02.796 --> 00:15:07.321 like there, what we were aiming to build wasn't valuable, but that we weren't 00:15:07.321 --> 00:15:10.441 delivering like the right piece to show. 00:15:10.921 --> 00:15:13.801 We were just giving you like a wheel and saying like, you can 00:15:13.801 --> 00:15:15.541 get places with this, right? 00:15:15.781 --> 00:15:17.521 And like, no, we can't. 00:15:17.911 --> 00:15:23.131 And so like, like I think when you're, when you're thinking about iterative 00:15:23.461 --> 00:15:27.211 iter, like shipping product, iteratively, I think each iteration has to be 00:15:27.216 --> 00:15:28.891 like a whole thing that you can use. 00:15:29.251 --> 00:15:33.251 And thinking about that versus like, and, and balancing that with speed, I think. 00:15:35.711 --> 00:15:35.756 CJ: Yeah. 00:15:35.756 --> 00:15:40.526 I think it's also kind of tricky to do because you, we hear all of 00:15:40.526 --> 00:15:44.276 this like harping on, oh, just do the MVP and ship your MVP and then 00:15:44.276 --> 00:15:45.656 get feedback and then iterate. 00:15:46.046 --> 00:15:49.316 But I think a lot of people take that as like, Just ship 00:15:49.321 --> 00:15:52.406 something that's incomplete and basic and then get feedback. 00:15:52.406 --> 00:15:56.066 But it's like, no, you've gotta like get a holistic picture. 00:15:56.546 --> 00:16:00.386 And maybe that means narrowing your scope to like a much, much tighter 00:16:00.386 --> 00:16:04.556 group of users that you're gonna solve for, but like solve something 00:16:04.561 --> 00:16:07.496 completely and perfectly for the, that, not necessarily perfectly, 00:16:07.496 --> 00:16:09.086 but solve it well for those users. 00:16:09.086 --> 00:16:13.856 And then start widening your scope to iterate and like 00:16:13.856 --> 00:16:15.116 pull in more and more users. 00:16:16.381 --> 00:16:19.471 Chelsea: And I think something that happens in practice, like I think 00:16:19.471 --> 00:16:22.741 everybody always has the intention to do that, and we just forget about 00:16:22.741 --> 00:16:27.136 the like, , the V and the P in that term is like viable and product. 00:16:27.136 --> 00:16:29.866 Like you have to build a whole product and it has to be viable. 00:16:29.896 --> 00:16:34.376 It can't just be minimal . Like those other two letters are important. 00:16:34.796 --> 00:16:38.036 I think what happens a lot, like, at least what I've seen happen 00:16:38.396 --> 00:16:44.116 practically is that like , like people are scared to have to repeat work. 00:16:44.356 --> 00:16:49.096 So like, okay, if you build like the wheel, if you build a skateboard, those, 00:16:49.876 --> 00:16:50.986 I'm gonna keep going with the metaphor. 00:16:51.136 --> 00:16:54.736 If you build a skateboard, you can't use the same wheels in a car. 00:16:54.736 --> 00:16:55.966 Like it's a different thing. 00:16:56.446 --> 00:16:59.986 And so like, be like, okay, but we need to make this so it is usable 00:17:00.136 --> 00:17:01.696 when we make our big product. 00:17:01.966 --> 00:17:02.236 But I. 00:17:03.301 --> 00:17:07.831 Argue, and I feel like this is something that I've always also learned the hard way 00:17:07.831 --> 00:17:12.601 in design systems that like you actually at this point in the process, you don't 00:17:12.606 --> 00:17:14.371 know what people need out of the car. 00:17:14.431 --> 00:17:16.471 Like you don't know what kind of wheels they need. 00:17:16.711 --> 00:17:20.701 You don't know, like the reason you're building this skateboard 00:17:20.701 --> 00:17:22.171 is to figure out what they need. 00:17:22.171 --> 00:17:27.931 So you like assuming that you can predict what that product will look like, what 00:17:27.931 --> 00:17:33.191 that car will look like is , I think is just kind of like a, a fool's errand. 00:17:33.191 --> 00:17:37.811 And so like if you're trying to build car pieces to fit on a 00:17:37.811 --> 00:17:39.851 skateboard, it's not gonna work. 00:17:40.331 --> 00:17:41.351 And then like you. 00:17:42.391 --> 00:17:44.801 . Like you just have to admit that you're probably gonna have to rebuild 00:17:44.801 --> 00:17:49.121 this piece, but you'll do it with like a better knowledge of what 00:17:49.121 --> 00:17:50.891 it should be every time you do it. 00:17:51.281 --> 00:17:55.511 And so if you try to design the car without building the skateboard first, 00:17:55.511 --> 00:17:59.321 you just don't have enough information to know what it should be like. 00:17:59.321 --> 00:18:01.111 And so so I think that is something. 00:18:02.051 --> 00:18:05.641 at MVP stages, you just kind of have to let go of like you might throw 00:18:05.641 --> 00:18:07.861 all of this away and that's fine. 00:18:08.131 --> 00:18:09.721 Like that's okay. 00:18:10.141 --> 00:18:12.241 You should probably throw all of it away. 00:18:12.361 --> 00:18:16.621 If you haven't thrown most of it away by the time you're at car stage, then yikes. 00:18:17.046 --> 00:18:19.476 Colin: What I like about this, and I'll put it in the show notes 00:18:19.476 --> 00:18:23.076 for sure, is that, you know the first one is you build a wheel. 00:18:23.136 --> 00:18:23.796 No one's happy. 00:18:23.796 --> 00:18:25.566 You build two wheels, no one's really happy. 00:18:25.571 --> 00:18:27.696 You build the body to put on top of the wheels. 00:18:27.966 --> 00:18:29.166 No one's still happy because. 00:18:29.881 --> 00:18:32.401 The car's not put together yet, but in the other one, it's 00:18:32.401 --> 00:18:33.871 like you've got a skateboard. 00:18:34.021 --> 00:18:37.021 That was something you can locomote on, you can move around. 00:18:37.471 --> 00:18:41.281 Then we're gonna add like a handlebar to get a scooter, and the scooter is 00:18:41.286 --> 00:18:45.301 the new product, the new iteration, and people can get around on that. 00:18:45.811 --> 00:18:46.861 And then you have a bike. 00:18:46.891 --> 00:18:48.541 And then we added a motor to the bike. 00:18:48.541 --> 00:18:52.591 And then we're like, oh, people actually wanna sit in a car with four wheels 00:18:53.011 --> 00:18:55.291 and the engine not between their legs. 00:18:56.596 --> 00:18:59.991 Chelsea: Yeah, I I feel like the scooter to bike thing is like really 00:18:59.991 --> 00:19:02.331 important too, cuz you basically have to throw out all the parts. 00:19:02.961 --> 00:19:07.581 Like you're like none of these parts that we used before matter and like, 00:19:07.611 --> 00:19:09.591 you should totally be fine doing that. 00:19:09.984 --> 00:19:13.074 CJ: I think, yeah, like all of that is actually kind of also 00:19:13.074 --> 00:19:17.094 about the second point, which is that design is continuous, right? 00:19:17.334 --> 00:19:21.564 I mean, the, the fact that your product isn't done until 00:19:22.014 --> 00:19:23.944 you've got you know, an actual. 00:19:24.496 --> 00:19:26.236 Product that is in someone's hands. 00:19:26.236 --> 00:19:30.496 And then you can figure out what's good and what's bad about that product. 00:19:30.496 --> 00:19:34.786 And then iterate, like after you ship something, figure out what's good and 00:19:34.791 --> 00:19:36.076 what's bad, and then make it better. 00:19:36.286 --> 00:19:39.916 I think that's another thing that I think we forget about is shipping something 00:19:39.916 --> 00:19:41.896 and being like, yay, we made a thing. 00:19:42.046 --> 00:19:47.866 And then, you know, never going back to see how it's doing in the world, but. 00:19:48.729 --> 00:19:54.139 Chelsea: Yeah, I think My, my second job was at an agency and that's where I 00:19:54.139 --> 00:19:59.269 started like, I don't know, just feeling really hungry to understand how the stuff 00:19:59.274 --> 00:20:00.559 I was making was doing in the world. 00:20:00.564 --> 00:20:04.279 Cuz as most people know, like agency work, it's like you do it, 00:20:04.639 --> 00:20:08.569 client takes it, and then you don't really get to see what happens. 00:20:08.574 --> 00:20:11.629 And sometimes you have continuous clients, but at the time I didn't 00:20:11.629 --> 00:20:16.909 really, I didn't really have many of those and so I, I didn't know if I. 00:20:18.674 --> 00:20:19.159 getting better. 00:20:19.219 --> 00:20:21.559 Like, I think that was almost like a personal thing. 00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:25.519 Like, am I, is this better than anything that I've made before? 00:20:26.449 --> 00:20:32.029 Like I had an idea of like, taste wise, I, I think it's better, but like actual, 00:20:32.059 --> 00:20:36.229 like ux, usability wise, like I didn't, I didn't know if anything I was making 00:20:36.234 --> 00:20:38.419 was better than what I was doing before. 00:20:38.419 --> 00:20:42.289 And so I think that's sort of like how I landed in, in product design 00:20:42.289 --> 00:20:47.749 is just, really being able to live with the products that you create. 00:20:47.749 --> 00:20:53.509 And I think that's been like, design systems is an extreme of that cuz you both 00:20:53.539 --> 00:20:58.009 have to, you also have to use that product and you're like, oh, why did I do that? 00:20:58.009 --> 00:20:59.419 Like, yikes. 00:20:59.569 --> 00:21:01.249 And now everybody has to use it. 00:21:01.249 --> 00:21:05.929 Everybody you know is using this thing that you made and 00:21:06.349 --> 00:21:07.759 telling you what's wrong with it. 00:21:08.554 --> 00:21:13.384 And you're like, oh wow, it's a good crash course in like listening to your users. 00:21:13.384 --> 00:21:17.074 Cuz when you, your users are your coworkers, like they're gonna tell you 00:21:17.824 --> 00:21:20.504 Colin: and you, in this case, you're talking about like a literal design 00:21:20.504 --> 00:21:23.824 system that you've implemented for your team to build with, right. 00:21:24.154 --> 00:21:24.604 Chelsea: Yes. 00:21:24.664 --> 00:21:25.054 Yeah. 00:21:25.164 --> 00:21:27.934 So a design, like an internal design system for your company 00:21:27.934 --> 00:21:28.924 to build your product with. 00:21:29.424 --> 00:21:33.424 I feel like that's been the most, the, like fastest and most aggressive, 00:21:33.604 --> 00:21:37.564 aggressive isn't the right word, but just like like powerful feedback 00:21:37.564 --> 00:21:40.864 loop in terms of, of user feedback. 00:21:41.736 --> 00:21:46.176 CJ: It also seems like a, a really powerful skill to have both like 00:21:46.566 --> 00:21:50.286 the design experience and being a front end engineer because you can 00:21:50.286 --> 00:21:51.606 sort of build these components. 00:21:51.666 --> 00:21:55.686 That then enable a product team to go out and build faster without having to 00:21:55.691 --> 00:21:59.076 think about, oh, you know, what, is the shading supposed to be on this input box? 00:21:59.076 --> 00:22:02.436 Or what color am I supposed to use for the call to action button versus 00:22:02.436 --> 00:22:04.386 the like secondary button or whatever. 00:22:04.866 --> 00:22:10.326 And so I'm curious too, I mean, we've got a, I mean the, the next bullet is, Design 00:22:10.326 --> 00:22:11.946 and build systems, not just features. 00:22:11.946 --> 00:22:15.576 And so maybe we can talk a little bit about like what you consider a 00:22:15.576 --> 00:22:19.236 design system and like what is in scope for design systems versus what 00:22:19.236 --> 00:22:24.306 is, I don't know, part of the brand and is there a like line between the 00:22:24.306 --> 00:22:28.516 two or, yeah, kind of like how, how do you see those things coming together? 00:22:29.996 --> 00:22:33.476 Chelsea: Yeah, I, I feel like this is like something that 00:22:33.481 --> 00:22:35.426 design systems people nerd out. 00:22:35.456 --> 00:22:37.856 It's, this is the core question that design systems people are 00:22:37.856 --> 00:22:39.326 like, nobody understands us. 00:22:39.806 --> 00:22:42.056 Like what, where are the bounds of a design system? 00:22:42.056 --> 00:22:49.646 And like, what is a design system for and I would say the like primary. 00:22:50.189 --> 00:22:55.364 , the primary conceit of a design system is to provide like UI 00:22:55.394 --> 00:23:00.074 primitives to the rest of the company as like base building blocks. 00:23:00.544 --> 00:23:04.264 I think some people would say like, the goal of a design system is consistency. 00:23:04.774 --> 00:23:11.449 And I think I would say that like, a good if if you're building your design system. 00:23:11.449 --> 00:23:14.869 Well, a good side effect is consistency, but it's not necessarily the goal. 00:23:15.229 --> 00:23:20.299 I think the goal is like efficiency for designers and for engineers and also like 00:23:20.299 --> 00:23:22.399 alignment for designers and engineers. 00:23:22.399 --> 00:23:26.269 Cuz you're using the same, ideally the same set of building blocks. 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:28.849 And so you can sort of have this like shared language. 00:23:29.299 --> 00:23:32.329 And the reason I make that distinction between like consistency being 00:23:32.329 --> 00:23:35.419 the goal is that like, I think. 00:23:36.589 --> 00:23:41.494 in the times where I've worked on a design systems team and we've made 00:23:41.494 --> 00:23:49.774 consistency, our goal, the scope of what we had to do was just impossible. 00:23:50.284 --> 00:23:56.254 Like, and I don't think it's a good system to have a design systems 00:23:56.254 --> 00:24:00.154 team, almost like in charge of. 00:24:00.874 --> 00:24:03.934 Decisions for individual products. 00:24:04.354 --> 00:24:07.504 It, it creates this like really big tension between product teams and 00:24:07.504 --> 00:24:10.834 designers and engineers on product teams and the design systems team. 00:24:11.374 --> 00:24:16.714 And ultimately, I feel, I think this is one of the most, the strongest 00:24:16.719 --> 00:24:19.084 opinions that I have, , is that. 00:24:19.939 --> 00:24:23.059 The team who are closest to the customers should be making 00:24:23.089 --> 00:24:24.469 most of the product decisions. 00:24:24.709 --> 00:24:30.019 And a design systems team is at least like two degrees removed from the customer. 00:24:30.019 --> 00:24:34.279 Like the product team hears from customers, they do the user research, 00:24:34.459 --> 00:24:38.599 they're like accountable to metrics that have to do with customer happiness. 00:24:38.959 --> 00:24:43.219 And the design systems team is accountable to those product teams. 00:24:43.729 --> 00:24:49.309 And so, , I should be able to ask questions, I think on like, 00:24:50.689 --> 00:24:53.599 Hey, do you really need to use like different style tabs here? 00:24:53.604 --> 00:24:59.299 Or is using the same style gonna be like better because it's consistent? 00:24:59.749 --> 00:25:03.769 But I don't think I should have like decision making power over, like, you may 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:09.049 not use these kinds of tabs because maybe there's a really solid user choice for. 00:25:10.249 --> 00:25:11.779 That team is doing it. 00:25:11.779 --> 00:25:12.769 And like, what do I know? 00:25:12.769 --> 00:25:15.019 I don't build that product every day. 00:25:15.439 --> 00:25:23.299 And I think it's, it can be a little contentious when a design systems team 00:25:23.299 --> 00:25:28.999 takes more of that hard line stance because you don't have the context and 00:25:29.439 --> 00:25:32.829 and it's like quite disempowering and I think can sometimes lead to like, 00:25:34.479 --> 00:25:36.849 like a lowest common denominator. 00:25:37.734 --> 00:25:41.754 Thing for a user experience where like you're using all the same components 00:25:41.754 --> 00:25:45.084 and you've got like a baseline, like I think the floor, I forgot, I think 00:25:45.084 --> 00:25:48.594 Shopify wrote an article about this, but like, thinking of design systems 00:25:48.594 --> 00:25:51.234 as a quality elevator is important. 00:25:51.874 --> 00:25:55.409 Because like if you raise the floor, but like you limit the 00:25:55.409 --> 00:25:58.019 number of things people can do, so you're never raising the ceiling. 00:25:58.199 --> 00:25:59.159 You're like lowering the ceiling. 00:25:59.159 --> 00:26:01.559 You become more of a, they described it as like a trash 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:03.509 compactor is what they were seeing. 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:04.679 And so you need to. 00:26:05.849 --> 00:26:11.399 Like agency for those individual teams and designers to like, explore and, and 00:26:11.639 --> 00:26:16.589 drive solutions that are like specific to their use cases, but give them a baseline 00:26:16.589 --> 00:26:20.309 where like if I, I don't, I shouldn't have to refigure out the tab design 00:26:20.314 --> 00:26:22.049 like, so I'm gonna fall back on that. 00:26:22.049 --> 00:26:28.379 I can but if I really need to like drive this new pattern because it's 00:26:28.379 --> 00:26:31.859 good for my customers, I should need to ask design systems like for permission. 00:26:33.944 --> 00:26:37.014 CJ: it almost seems like you could, you could technically implement 00:26:37.344 --> 00:26:41.064 almost every single web application with just like a text input box. 00:26:41.364 --> 00:26:44.364 So if you're a home and you're trying to like listen and think about what 00:26:44.364 --> 00:26:48.444 like this design system might look like, imagine starting with you're only 00:26:48.444 --> 00:26:50.364 allowed to use text boxes and that's it, 00:26:50.994 --> 00:26:54.564 But like maybe your design system makes like the most 00:26:54.564 --> 00:26:56.514 badass text box you've ever seen. 00:26:56.514 --> 00:27:00.594 It's got like crazy shades and like, you know, these fancy borders and things. 00:27:01.294 --> 00:27:05.254 What you, what the customer really needs is a date picker. 00:27:05.704 --> 00:27:10.234 But like you're making them enter in some date that's slowing them down and 00:27:10.294 --> 00:27:12.514 like making their user experience worse. 00:27:12.784 --> 00:27:15.094 But like you've got a really sexy text box. 00:27:15.094 --> 00:27:17.974 It just happens to not actually solve the user's need. 00:27:17.974 --> 00:27:21.614 And so, yeah, I think I, yeah, one of the things that comes to 00:27:21.614 --> 00:27:26.014 mind too is like why not just use an off the shelf design system? 00:27:26.064 --> 00:27:29.634 For a long time used Bootstrap, and I feel like all the websites 00:27:30.084 --> 00:27:33.684 on the internet from like 2012 to like 20, I don't know, 19. 00:27:34.044 --> 00:27:35.694 Were all basically look the same. 00:27:35.694 --> 00:27:41.154 And now I'm using Tailwind ui, which like, are these design systems, how 00:27:41.154 --> 00:27:46.734 do you see these like sort of UI frameworks fitting into like that role? 00:27:46.734 --> 00:27:52.194 And, I don't know, is it like bad that people are using those or Yeah. 00:27:52.464 --> 00:27:53.094 What, what are your thoughts? 00:27:54.474 --> 00:27:55.104 Off the shelf. 00:27:55.109 --> 00:27:55.919 Chelsea: I don't think it's bad. 00:27:55.919 --> 00:27:59.879 The latice design systems actually use a chakra under the hood, so 00:27:59.969 --> 00:28:01.349 uses chakra UI under the hood. 00:28:01.739 --> 00:28:05.129 I like that those things exist. 00:28:05.134 --> 00:28:06.959 One, because they're like a public reference. 00:28:07.229 --> 00:28:12.254 Two, because it's very clear that there's like, a set of components that 00:28:12.254 --> 00:28:15.044 like literally every company needs that 00:28:15.944 --> 00:28:18.734 Like there's just a baseline set in like how you're gonna start 00:28:18.739 --> 00:28:19.664 off with your design system. 00:28:19.664 --> 00:28:23.234 So why are we inde independently rebuilding them like at 00:28:23.239 --> 00:28:24.164 every single company? 00:28:24.164 --> 00:28:28.304 Like text boxes, inputs, buttons, tabs, redo buttons. 00:28:28.334 --> 00:28:34.514 Like the set of pro, probably like 30 components that like every, everybody. 00:28:35.424 --> 00:28:36.179 kind of needs. 00:28:36.569 --> 00:28:39.479 And so it does seem silly that we're like building them all independently. 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.059 And it makes sense to have like a core to start. 00:28:42.059 --> 00:28:45.269 So I like that these things exist. 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:49.739 I do think that, I think Rune Metson kind of talked a little bit about this, 00:28:49.739 --> 00:28:57.299 that like, I, I think like he felt like there was a, there's like a sameness 00:28:57.959 --> 00:28:59.999 about the web that design systems. 00:29:00.804 --> 00:29:04.604 I think his design systems is kind of like driving, and I think he takes the 00:29:04.604 --> 00:29:06.494 word design system slightly differently. 00:29:06.494 --> 00:29:08.504 It's like designing with a system. 00:29:08.509 --> 00:29:13.214 So like he'll create these like graphic and visual systems and like generative 00:29:13.219 --> 00:29:17.564 art or like generative ways to build things that are like somewhat unique. 00:29:18.494 --> 00:29:21.434 I think I take a little, a slightly more practical stance, which is. 00:29:23.324 --> 00:29:26.249 largely, I think the things people wanna do the web are like roughly 00:29:26.249 --> 00:29:28.229 the same . Like they're not. 00:29:28.619 --> 00:29:32.909 It's just like you need to like tipity type your text into something 00:29:32.909 --> 00:29:36.329 and like see it somewhere else and you need to click this thing and 00:29:36.329 --> 00:29:38.669 like have something like calculate. 00:29:39.149 --> 00:29:44.459 And so I think the fact that we have like patterns for that are make sense. 00:29:44.909 --> 00:29:46.019 And I, I like that. 00:29:47.249 --> 00:29:52.469 Something that, like having a few big design systems and pattern libraries 00:29:52.469 --> 00:29:58.019 does it, like, it really identifies like, which things are almost like canon, 00:29:58.679 --> 00:30:00.599 like so many people have done them. 00:30:00.869 --> 00:30:06.029 They're obviously a thing that like everybody uses and there's, and, and we 00:30:06.029 --> 00:30:11.039 can collectively like build best like a baseline of best practices around them. 00:30:11.929 --> 00:30:16.199 But again, like the other example is like, but someone could take that and 00:30:16.199 --> 00:30:19.769 like take the baseline of that and put it in a completely different direction, 00:30:19.774 --> 00:30:21.959 very specifically to what they need. 00:30:21.959 --> 00:30:27.359 Like maybe I need a carousel, but like, okay, I'll take this base carousel 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:30.809 and it works kind of like a carousel, but I wanna make it go a bunch of 00:30:30.809 --> 00:30:32.579 different directions for some reason. 00:30:32.579 --> 00:30:33.569 Like that would work for me. 00:30:33.869 --> 00:30:37.089 . And so I think it's almost like, when you're like an artist, like 00:30:37.809 --> 00:30:40.329 you have to learn how to paint, like everybody learns how to paint and 00:30:40.329 --> 00:30:41.769 then you can start breaking the rules. 00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:45.969 I feel like a lot of these design systems just kind of like put down with the, 00:30:45.969 --> 00:30:51.219 like what are the core skills and then like give you an idea of where you. 00:30:52.304 --> 00:30:53.199 start breaking the rules. 00:30:53.199 --> 00:30:56.339 So generally I think they're also pretty good and pretty amazing. 00:30:56.339 --> 00:31:02.129 Like, I think it's having worked at a company where, like Stripe was when I left 00:31:02.129 --> 00:31:06.779 like 6,000 people and right now Latice is like a couple of hundred and earlier 00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:11.309 in my career I was like, I was working more at like 50 10 person companies, like 00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:15.889 the difficulty level in creating a system that works for a 6,000 person company. 00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:17.239 It was like quite different. 00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:20.449 Like just even like figuring out what scope you needed to 00:31:20.449 --> 00:31:24.049 sit at and like how specific you wanted to get with your patterns. 00:31:24.229 --> 00:31:28.189 So the idea that like, like Tailwind and bootstrap created things that 00:31:28.189 --> 00:31:32.869 work for like entire industries is just like really impressive. 00:31:32.924 --> 00:31:35.904 Colin: Is there a point to that point, like at which you would 00:31:35.904 --> 00:31:38.674 recommend someone sit down and design. 00:31:39.294 --> 00:31:40.794 Or come up with their own design system. 00:31:40.794 --> 00:31:46.974 Like if you're a four person startup, it's probably not your main directive 00:31:46.974 --> 00:31:48.984 to go build your perfect design system. 00:31:48.984 --> 00:31:49.224 Right? 00:31:49.224 --> 00:31:52.224 But is there, you know, is it 10, is it 20? 00:31:52.224 --> 00:31:56.604 What, what point do you think it starts to make sense where that, that is important 00:31:56.604 --> 00:31:58.314 or, or does it, you know, it does. 00:31:58.314 --> 00:31:58.644 It depend. 00:31:59.919 --> 00:32:05.449 Chelsea: Yeah, I don't think I have like a strong opinion on like a specific 00:32:05.454 --> 00:32:11.739 point, but maybe I can tell a story of trying to do it at like a 10 person 00:32:11.744 --> 00:32:19.569 company and then deciding that like it was probably stupid . I was, so when I 00:32:19.574 --> 00:32:23.319 was at Source Graph, I was like, okay, I'm gonna like put together a design system. 00:32:23.889 --> 00:32:27.339 And I had worked at Change.org where we like had one , that company was like a 00:32:27.339 --> 00:32:32.529 hundred people and I had like, contributed to it, but I didn't like create it and I 00:32:32.529 --> 00:32:35.889 wasn't there when, when they created it. 00:32:36.339 --> 00:32:40.269 And so I started with a baseline set of components and kind of like made a little 00:32:40.269 --> 00:32:42.579 website and, and people were like, cool. 00:32:42.584 --> 00:32:43.059 Yay. 00:32:43.309 --> 00:32:47.299 And then as folks started using it, like literally only 10 people. 00:32:47.299 --> 00:32:48.709 It was just like, why does this work this way? 00:32:48.709 --> 00:32:51.169 I'm like, oh yeah, okay, so maybe this should work a different way. 00:32:51.439 --> 00:32:55.559 And that's where I really learned like how when you have a design system 00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:59.789 that people are using, you have a product that you're now supporting. 00:33:00.689 --> 00:33:02.639 And when you have this product that you're supporting, you 00:33:02.639 --> 00:33:04.709 better have time to support it. 00:33:05.099 --> 00:33:08.419 And, and like I think design systems creates a lot of efficiencies at scale. 00:33:09.049 --> 00:33:12.859 But at that size it just was like, you know, you need to take time to support it. 00:33:12.859 --> 00:33:13.819 You need to take feedback. 00:33:13.819 --> 00:33:19.129 I think that's even where I really learned like like any API change you make to 00:33:19.129 --> 00:33:24.439 a component is like very important to like get right when you're putting it in 00:33:24.439 --> 00:33:28.039 the, because once people are using it, changing it is then like really hard. 00:33:28.879 --> 00:33:31.939 I mean, it depends on the API change, but like, it's one of those things 00:33:31.939 --> 00:33:33.679 where like it's a type two decision. 00:33:34.239 --> 00:33:36.004 It's a hard to reverse decision. 00:33:36.364 --> 00:33:39.064 So when you are ready to make it, you better be ready to make it. 00:33:39.424 --> 00:33:45.754 It wasn't quite that type two E at a small company, but again, it created like. 00:33:46.399 --> 00:33:51.379 Work for me to maintain, to develop, to support. 00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:57.259 And at, oh, like 5, 6, 5, what became like a 10 person company. 00:33:57.529 --> 00:34:02.209 She's like, I had other stuff to do and it wasn't creating, it was creating some 00:34:02.209 --> 00:34:06.889 efficiency, but like between 10 people, just like not enough that it made sense 00:34:06.889 --> 00:34:11.829 for me to also be spending like 20, 30% of my time like answering people's questions. 00:34:11.834 --> 00:34:17.554 And I was like, so I, I think at that stage, It's like more helpful just to 00:34:17.554 --> 00:34:22.594 communicate more, to align, and then at some point, like the communication gets so 00:34:22.594 --> 00:34:24.184 hard, you should create systems around it. 00:34:24.184 --> 00:34:28.984 And I think those systems should probably like scale with like, like how much 00:34:28.984 --> 00:34:33.664 efficiency is it creating versus how much work is, is it to maintain and support. 00:34:34.129 --> 00:34:37.069 Colin: Right, and you mentioned having a design system team, which I 00:34:37.069 --> 00:34:41.449 imagined like a 6,000 person org would have, whereas a 10 person org just 00:34:41.449 --> 00:34:43.859 know what you're signing up for if you're gonna bring it into the world. 00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:44.909 CJ: I was gonna ask, so. 00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:51.129 It sounds like maintaining a design system inside of a small company is as if you're 00:34:51.129 --> 00:34:55.599 an open source maintainer of a popular library, and you're all by yourself, 00:34:56.234 --> 00:34:58.389 , and you're still having to Yeah. 00:34:58.419 --> 00:35:00.989 Respond to all these changes and making. 00:35:02.234 --> 00:35:07.334 Product decisions about the design system so that it is customizable, flexible, 00:35:07.394 --> 00:35:12.644 and can expand into all of the needs that might arise in the future, which can be 00:35:12.644 --> 00:35:15.854 really tricky and I think it actually takes like a sort of different mindset 00:35:16.274 --> 00:35:19.964 to maintain a library that people are then gonna use to build other software 00:35:20.174 --> 00:35:23.534 because you have to think about all the different ways that it might be used 00:35:23.534 --> 00:35:26.564 and cover all those different edge cases instead of just being like, oh, here's 00:35:26.564 --> 00:35:28.304 how I would use it to build X, Y, and z. 00:35:29.219 --> 00:35:31.329 So, yeah, definitely sounds challenging. 00:35:32.324 --> 00:35:32.564 Chelsea: Yeah. 00:35:32.564 --> 00:35:35.294 I, I think the open source Comparison. 00:35:35.564 --> 00:35:38.504 It's one I make a lot and I think it's like spot on. 00:35:39.014 --> 00:35:42.434 Like working on a design system is more like working on an open source library 00:35:42.439 --> 00:35:44.654 than it is like working on a product. 00:35:45.194 --> 00:35:47.204 And I think that like sometimes. 00:35:47.804 --> 00:35:50.564 At least in my experience, like often I think the company 00:35:50.564 --> 00:35:54.194 expects the design systems team to work more like a product team. 00:35:54.684 --> 00:35:58.974 It's like, are you gonna ship, like shipping more components is the goal. 00:35:59.334 --> 00:36:03.239 And I, that's a goal that I often I'm like, that's actually not the goal. 00:36:03.244 --> 00:36:06.869 Like the first goal should be that all our components are like solid. 00:36:06.869 --> 00:36:10.679 We take our components that people are using the most and make sure that 00:36:10.869 --> 00:36:14.669 they are like extendable accessible, that they're like super high quality. 00:36:15.764 --> 00:36:21.194 Before we expand our surface area of the things that we make. 00:36:21.194 --> 00:36:25.844 Cuz like you, if you ship 10 components and you ship them all with an 00:36:25.844 --> 00:36:27.344 api, that doesn't work for anyone. 00:36:27.344 --> 00:36:31.514 And then peop that doesn't work well or is extendable and then a lot of people use 00:36:31.514 --> 00:36:33.284 them and then you figure that out later. 00:36:33.314 --> 00:36:37.154 Your job now to fix those is like a hundred times harder 00:36:37.484 --> 00:36:40.064 than it was before you started. 00:36:40.124 --> 00:36:43.304 And so I think that like, like. 00:36:44.979 --> 00:36:48.204 because you need to sort of like predict this large set of use 00:36:48.209 --> 00:36:51.264 cases and you also have to have to accept that there are gonna be use 00:36:51.264 --> 00:36:53.334 cases you can't possibly predict. 00:36:53.994 --> 00:36:56.964 You have to be ready to deal with the network effects. 00:36:57.824 --> 00:36:58.869 of making it available. 00:36:58.869 --> 00:37:02.439 Cuz as soon, at least this was true at Stripe, like, because a lot of 00:37:02.439 --> 00:37:06.189 people use the design system, as soon as you dropped a new component in 00:37:06.189 --> 00:37:08.019 there, people would start using it. 00:37:08.499 --> 00:37:12.129 And once they started using it, you had to be responsible for 00:37:12.129 --> 00:37:13.329 how you were gonna change it. 00:37:13.719 --> 00:37:17.469 And we later like figured out, you know, like versioning and, and Penny. 00:37:17.469 --> 00:37:22.359 And that's in itself is its own like, you know, you have to manage. 00:37:22.999 --> 00:37:25.299 versions, people are on, recommend, choose what you're 00:37:25.299 --> 00:37:26.319 gonna support, all those things. 00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:30.309 But we did have a situation where like there was a pattern that 00:37:30.579 --> 00:37:32.079 someone wanted to contribute. 00:37:32.529 --> 00:37:37.869 And it had the potential to be used in a few use cases and some 00:37:37.869 --> 00:37:39.759 designers were trying it out. 00:37:39.789 --> 00:37:41.739 And we had a lot of pushback. 00:37:41.739 --> 00:37:45.669 We didn't wanna pull it into the design system until we sort of like 00:37:45.674 --> 00:37:49.419 had more time and validation that this was a pattern we wanted to propagate. 00:37:50.379 --> 00:37:52.959 but we got a lot of pushback and, and like, they're like, well, we don't 00:37:52.959 --> 00:37:55.029 wanna build this a bunch of times, so just put it in the design system. 00:37:55.029 --> 00:37:56.529 And so we did it. 00:37:56.899 --> 00:38:00.769 And then a couple months later, one of the products that was using 00:38:00.774 --> 00:38:03.289 it did user testing and found out it was just like horrible. 00:38:03.289 --> 00:38:06.619 Like, it, it did not test well, like people did not know how to use it. 00:38:06.624 --> 00:38:09.719 It was confusing and was causing some like bad effects and 00:38:09.809 --> 00:38:10.889 actually some other products. 00:38:11.159 --> 00:38:13.529 But because we put in the design system, like four other 00:38:13.529 --> 00:38:14.759 products, were already using it. 00:38:15.269 --> 00:38:19.694 And so at that point, You know, you don't just have to be like, okay, we're, 00:38:19.904 --> 00:38:23.564 it's not even like we are changing the pattern and updating it to, for everyone. 00:38:23.864 --> 00:38:27.674 It's like this entire design pattern should not be used. 00:38:28.064 --> 00:38:32.639 And now we have like, We have to, I mean, we don't have the power to make 00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:36.419 people do this, but like a thing we have to do is just like, Hey, we don't 00:38:36.419 --> 00:38:37.769 recommend you use this pattern from it. 00:38:37.829 --> 00:38:41.069 Like you should redesign this in your product. 00:38:41.489 --> 00:38:44.819 And like, I don't know, teams are like up in the air whether 00:38:44.824 --> 00:38:45.809 they have time to do that. 00:38:45.809 --> 00:38:49.409 So you, you kind of have to be ready to be responsible for 00:38:49.409 --> 00:38:50.909 everything you put out as well. 00:38:50.969 --> 00:38:53.849 Like if it's bad, it's gonna propagate. 00:38:53.849 --> 00:38:55.439 If it's good, it's gonna propagate. 00:38:55.439 --> 00:38:58.769 And so you have to, yeah, you have to account for all. 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:00.799 you know, network effects. 00:39:00.989 --> 00:39:03.899 Colin: It sounds like if something makes it into the design system, it's 00:39:03.899 --> 00:39:07.319 like a design seal of approval and then people are like, well, I'm gonna 00:39:07.319 --> 00:39:10.649 use this thing that you said I should use, and then it gets propagated 00:39:10.649 --> 00:39:15.219 and you know, you have to have, it sounds like a design system designer. 00:39:15.834 --> 00:39:19.344 Engineers, product people who are working on that have to think 00:39:19.344 --> 00:39:22.734 about the end user, but then also the developer experience too. 00:39:22.734 --> 00:39:26.694 Like yeah, it's a what a time to be alive on the internet for sure. 00:39:28.124 --> 00:39:31.184 Chelsea: I'm generally in favor of like experimentation and seeing 00:39:31.184 --> 00:39:33.494 what happens, but also if it's not working, it's not working. 00:39:34.034 --> 00:39:35.914 . But yeah, I think that like, like. 00:39:36.799 --> 00:39:43.069 The comp of, like the skateboard and wheel situation also applies to design systems. 00:39:43.069 --> 00:39:46.309 And I think it's one of the reasons why like often people are like, 00:39:46.339 --> 00:39:47.989 I think we have this pattern. 00:39:47.989 --> 00:39:50.179 I think it'll work for a lot of use cases. 00:39:50.179 --> 00:39:52.099 So I wanna put it in the design system. 00:39:52.249 --> 00:39:54.919 And my first instinct is be like, let's wait. 00:39:55.249 --> 00:39:58.969 Like let's, why don't you guys use it for a while and maybe 00:39:58.969 --> 00:40:00.109 another product might copy. 00:40:00.729 --> 00:40:04.989 and yeah, that's some duplication of work and they'll use it. 00:40:05.049 --> 00:40:09.819 And then we have so much more information, in those two cases about 00:40:09.819 --> 00:40:14.679 how we should design the API design, the component, which pieces we should 00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:19.449 bring in just in like two cases that when we bring into the design system. 00:40:19.929 --> 00:40:22.539 I guess the comp would be, I think we at least wanna get to bike 00:40:22.539 --> 00:40:25.779 stage of something, of a component before we bring it into the design. 00:40:25.809 --> 00:40:29.799 Like all the skateboards and scooters and shit, they should be like in the 00:40:29.799 --> 00:40:35.259 product, but like we should at least be a bike by time we get the design system. 00:40:36.189 --> 00:40:37.839 Colin: Oh my God, I love that so much. 00:40:38.569 --> 00:40:42.949 CJ: It, it also like kind of rounds out your philosophy here, your last one 00:40:42.949 --> 00:40:47.419 of critique early and often and with everyone it's like, yeah, critique and 00:40:47.419 --> 00:40:51.739 make sure this is gonna work before it actually ends up in, in the system. 00:40:51.979 --> 00:40:56.059 But also just like generally probably seems like a good 00:40:56.064 --> 00:40:57.259 way to learn and improve. 00:40:58.834 --> 00:41:02.704 But yeah, I would love to hear maybe like tactically how you go about 00:41:03.334 --> 00:41:06.814 seeing if something is working or not working in the design system. 00:41:06.814 --> 00:41:10.204 I think it was, yeah, it was like nice to hear about your experience at the 00:41:10.204 --> 00:41:13.954 agency and how sometimes you'd work on a client project and then it's kind of 00:41:13.954 --> 00:41:16.654 like throwing it over the wall and being like, I don't know how well that did. 00:41:17.074 --> 00:41:17.824 So yeah. 00:41:17.824 --> 00:41:22.324 What has your experience been recently and maybe what can we learn about how to yeah. 00:41:22.354 --> 00:41:23.764 Critique and improve our. 00:41:26.409 --> 00:41:26.619 Chelsea: Yeah. 00:41:26.619 --> 00:41:31.739 I, well, like from a design, design design standpoint I. 00:41:32.934 --> 00:41:36.504 I think I've gone back on this one a little bit in that like, it really depends 00:41:36.504 --> 00:41:39.234 on who you are and your personality. 00:41:39.534 --> 00:41:45.174 I think I've I'm like pretty outgoing and so I'm pretty comfortable like 00:41:45.174 --> 00:41:50.544 talking to anybody about feedback and like critiquing with like, With 00:41:50.544 --> 00:41:54.234 engineers, with designers at any stage in the process and being able to like 00:41:54.684 --> 00:41:56.244 say like, actually that's not relevant. 00:41:56.244 --> 00:41:59.964 Like just like sort through all the crap like on the fly. 00:42:00.534 --> 00:42:06.234 I think I'm someone who like thinks through speaking a lot, so that's 00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:08.454 like helpful in critique situations. 00:42:09.384 --> 00:42:13.284 I have now worked with a lot of like more different styles of people and 00:42:13.284 --> 00:42:14.424 I think there are people who just. 00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:16.539 Need that time away. 00:42:16.539 --> 00:42:21.879 And so if you, if you're critiquing like all the time, if you like, and I 00:42:21.879 --> 00:42:26.169 have these phases too personally, where like, , I need to think in private. 00:42:26.289 --> 00:42:29.799 And I think there's people I've worked with who are like brilliant that like 00:42:29.799 --> 00:42:35.079 they work best when they have that time to think in private and process. 00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:37.959 And so I think I've shifted a little bit and like, why doesn't 00:42:37.959 --> 00:42:39.519 everybody share all the time? 00:42:39.699 --> 00:42:43.749 Like even if it's messy, even if it's nothing even, and I'm like, oh, that 00:42:43.749 --> 00:42:45.579 just like doesn't work for everybody. 00:42:45.699 --> 00:42:46.929 but it works for me. 00:42:47.409 --> 00:42:49.389 But to get at your question, which is like, how do you figure 00:42:49.389 --> 00:42:50.739 out if something's working or. 00:42:52.074 --> 00:42:54.174 If you have a Slack channel, you figure out pretty quickly, cuz 00:42:54.174 --> 00:42:55.914 everybody complains like immediately. 00:42:56.214 --> 00:43:00.474 So, like I said, that like if you're working on a design system internally, 00:43:00.474 --> 00:43:04.914 that feedback like, like if it's adopted, I think there's different 00:43:04.914 --> 00:43:08.304 stages where like some people are like working on adoption, so they 00:43:08.304 --> 00:43:09.804 have to do a lot more advocacy. 00:43:10.194 --> 00:43:12.804 Most of my experience has been starting. 00:43:13.869 --> 00:43:20.349 On a design system that is like, already in place, at least to a certain extent, 00:43:20.649 --> 00:43:25.689 and then like, like working on the things that it, that are already in use. 00:43:26.829 --> 00:43:31.039 And so when you're at that stage you get the feedback like pretty constantly and 00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:32.809 immediately , it's like, what's wrong? 00:43:33.349 --> 00:43:36.889 And so I feel like the, the challenge. 00:43:37.549 --> 00:43:42.859 For me has mostly been how to prioritize because you get like such a big 00:43:42.859 --> 00:43:46.909 volume and everything feels important because everything is scaled up. 00:43:47.509 --> 00:43:50.619 And so it's been like a struggle for me actually. 00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:57.759 Personally having like a, like a medium, ADD spectrum kind of brain is like, 00:43:58.059 --> 00:44:00.489 that's important and that's important and that's important and that's important. 00:44:00.879 --> 00:44:04.764 And then like having a hard time, like really getting to focus on any one thing. 00:44:04.764 --> 00:44:08.304 And so I think a lot of, at that stage for a lot of design systems, 00:44:08.304 --> 00:44:09.774 it challenges prioritization. 00:44:09.774 --> 00:44:14.004 It's like you have so many things that you could be doing because 00:44:14.004 --> 00:44:17.454 nothing is ever perfect because it doesn't work for everybody. 00:44:17.454 --> 00:44:23.174 And so I think you really have to figure out like what what individual change 00:44:23.174 --> 00:44:27.134 will have the most the most impact. 00:44:28.034 --> 00:44:33.374 For your first line users, so your, your internal users, engineers, and designers. 00:44:33.764 --> 00:44:39.134 Like, like if I were to work on one component, how would that change the lives 00:44:39.224 --> 00:44:42.524 and efficiency of designers and engineers? 00:44:42.704 --> 00:44:44.864 And then you also have to think about the second order impact. 00:44:44.864 --> 00:44:50.499 So how is that gonna affect users and I think often those things are in line 00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:56.889 where like if you make something easy to implement and it is the right pattern, 00:44:57.279 --> 00:44:59.379 more people will use the easy thing. 00:44:59.949 --> 00:45:04.209 So if it's also the right thing, then that gets to users. 00:45:04.509 --> 00:45:07.809 So often they're in line, but it doesn't always feel like it. 00:45:07.809 --> 00:45:11.169 And sometimes you really have to like bend your brain to figure out, you 00:45:11.169 --> 00:45:15.219 know, where the effects are because the, the effect is also like slow. 00:45:15.699 --> 00:45:17.109 So the feedback is fast. 00:45:17.559 --> 00:45:23.549 But the seeing it like, like if you introduce a new pattern that you think is 00:45:23.549 --> 00:45:29.444 good, you have to wait quite a while for like, engineers to use it for then to make 00:45:29.444 --> 00:45:32.744 its way to users for then you to collect feedback on how users are reacting to it. 00:45:32.744 --> 00:45:35.804 Like it doesn't, it doesn't, it happens pretty slowly. 00:45:36.134 --> 00:45:39.584 So like a side effect of that is actually that, like, I think the, 00:45:39.589 --> 00:45:45.404 like quarterly like reviews and evaluations and goal setting and OKRs 00:45:45.409 --> 00:45:50.504 have been tough for me personally in design systems because often the. 00:45:51.374 --> 00:45:58.664 Metrics change in usage or the the, like, the feedback from users doesn't happen 00:45:58.669 --> 00:46:00.504 in the same quarter that you do the work. 00:46:01.264 --> 00:46:01.544 CJ: Mm-hmm. 00:46:01.974 --> 00:46:03.634 Chelsea: And so that's been a challenge. 00:46:04.344 --> 00:46:06.324 CJ: I wonder if like a shortcut that I've seen? 00:46:06.354 --> 00:46:10.164 Oh, a shortcut that I've seen recently is people just like designing something 00:46:10.164 --> 00:46:13.314 in like Figma or Sketch or whatever, and then jumping on user calls and 00:46:13.314 --> 00:46:16.644 showing them pictures like it doesn't actually work yet, or it might sort 00:46:16.644 --> 00:46:20.004 of work, and then trying to get early, early feedback like that. 00:46:20.244 --> 00:46:21.924 But yeah, I, I totally. 00:46:22.584 --> 00:46:27.024 Understand that like the long term, long tail seems like it would be 00:46:27.024 --> 00:46:31.314 sort of exhausting and very different from like that really quick iterative 00:46:31.319 --> 00:46:32.784 feedback loop that you want. 00:46:32.814 --> 00:46:36.804 Like when building stuff on the web, it's like, oh, I, I made a change and next 00:46:36.804 --> 00:46:38.424 js just refresh my browser over there. 00:46:38.424 --> 00:46:38.604 So 00:46:39.074 --> 00:46:39.434 Chelsea: Yeah. 00:46:40.394 --> 00:46:44.714 Yeah, I think like in product that works really well. 00:46:45.254 --> 00:46:46.964 I'm actually like in the middle of doing that right now. 00:46:47.234 --> 00:46:50.054 I have like these really early wire frames, so I'm like talking to users. 00:46:50.054 --> 00:46:52.454 I'm like, this is, this is a mess. 00:46:52.454 --> 00:46:53.384 So like it's fine. 00:46:53.774 --> 00:46:59.204 Just tell us everything like just no judgment, like this are just rough ideas. 00:46:59.534 --> 00:47:02.894 Trying to understand the flow and mental model and just showing those. 00:47:03.404 --> 00:47:08.114 I think for design systems, there's so many, like there's how it looks. 00:47:09.089 --> 00:47:13.004 , there's how it works for a user and there's the developer experience 00:47:13.304 --> 00:47:17.504 that often I think those things are like, sometimes there's so many 00:47:17.504 --> 00:47:19.064 things you have to get feedback on. 00:47:19.724 --> 00:47:23.324 We started this process at Lattice that I think has actually worked pretty well. 00:47:23.324 --> 00:47:27.279 It's not super fast, but like I basically put together a a design 00:47:27.279 --> 00:47:31.549 doc which, you know, means one thing to engineers and a different thing 00:47:31.549 --> 00:47:34.519 to designers, but it's like one doc that does both of those things. 00:47:34.879 --> 00:47:41.029 So, articulating like what the API of this thing will be, what the, and 00:47:41.029 --> 00:47:46.279 then like showing mockups of like what the actual like spec of the component 00:47:46.279 --> 00:47:51.799 will be, and then sending that round to like, all of the product teams and 00:47:51.799 --> 00:47:55.519 all of the designers and saying like, this is how we're gonna build this. 00:47:55.639 --> 00:47:59.059 And, and having like a period of, of like an like request 00:47:59.059 --> 00:48:00.589 for comment sort of period. 00:48:00.739 --> 00:48:02.659 And that's, that's worked pretty well. 00:48:02.659 --> 00:48:06.829 So like before we roll out a, a big system change, like put together 00:48:06.834 --> 00:48:09.799 one of these design docs and just like tell all the teams, here's what 00:48:09.989 --> 00:48:14.029 we're thinking about, what should, like, are we missing anything? 00:48:14.419 --> 00:48:16.849 And then giving them an idea of how we're gonna roll. 00:48:18.924 --> 00:48:19.314 Colin: Awesome. 00:48:19.314 --> 00:48:22.104 Well, I think that's a great place to wrap things up. 00:48:22.104 --> 00:48:24.294 We can leave our listeners wanting some more. 00:48:24.294 --> 00:48:27.034 They can head over to check chexee.me. 00:48:27.059 --> 00:48:28.824 We'll put that in the show notes. 00:48:28.874 --> 00:48:32.474 So you can check out where you can find Chelsea and all of her work. 00:48:32.874 --> 00:48:38.644 Maybe she'll add some more philosophies as she develops them in her future roles. 00:48:38.704 --> 00:48:39.634 And yeah. 00:48:39.634 --> 00:48:41.284 Thanks so much for hanging out Chelsea. 00:48:42.149 --> 00:48:42.419 Chelsea: Cool. 00:48:42.419 --> 00:48:43.049 Thanks for having me. 00:48:43.744 --> 00:48:44.824 CJ: Yeah, thanks ton, Chelsea. 00:48:45.304 --> 00:48:48.424 You can find the show notes and all of the links to the 00:48:48.424 --> 00:48:51.114 resources at buildandlearn.dev. 00:48:51.554 --> 00:48:53.834 Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you next time. 00:48:54.477 --> 00:48:55.097 Colin: Bye friends.