A key component of the modern world economy, the chemical
industry delivers products and innovations to enhance everyday life.
It is also an industry in transformation where chemical executives and
workers are delivering growth and industry changing advancements while
responding to pressures from investors, regulators, and public opinion.
Discover how leading companies are approaching these challenges
here on the chemical show.
Join Victoria Meyer, president of Progressio Global and
host of the chemical show.
As she speaks with executives across the industry and learns how they are leading
their companies to grow, transform, and push industry boundaries on all frontiers.
Here's your host, Victoria Meyer.
Victoria: Hi, this is Victoria Meyer.
Welcome back to The Chemical Show where chemicals means business.
Today, I have the opportunity to speak with Eric Appelman,
who is the chief revenue officer at Aduro Clean Technologies.
Eric has a long history in the chemical industry, both in traditional companies
and now in green and renewable chemistry.
So we're going to be talking about that, about Aduro and more.
Well, Eric, welcome to the chemical show.
Eric: Thanks for having me.
Victoria: Glad to have you here.
So let's just get started with what's your origin story.
How did you get interested in chemicals and how did you
ultimately end up at Aduro?
Eric: Yeah, well maybe I should go then really 40 years back.
I'm 16 now when I was as a kid and doing my chemistry jobs
in the little house behind.
Always fascinated how you could turn one thing in the other
and that's how it started.
And in the end of the day, chemistry is, is, is a language.
It is one language to describe the world around you.
You can do it in German.
You can do it with mathematics as well.
And I just decided that I like the chemical language.
That's what happened.
So worked out in secondary school.
It's worked out when I was chemical engineering, uh, students in
20 in the Netherlands and, and it has been good ever since.
Victoria: Yeah.
That's awesome.
So, so tell us a little bit about Aduro.
Eric: Yeah.
Uh, Adura, which is a company that I joined about a year ago is a
project that has been around under other names for about 11 years.
And originally it was not at all about green chemistry.
It was about chopping up huge molecules of bitumen into small pieces
so that you can bump it away from arctic positions to a refinery where
people could make something with it.
But it is a generic technology so you can use it to chop anything
down that is too big to use.
So when about four years ago the world was really hot you On
plastic recycling, the scientists decided to try with great results.
Um, around that time also, we became a stakeholder entity on the, uh,
Toronto Stock Exchange, if I'm right.
And the name Aduro came to living.
And, and whereas we are still working on this, this bitumen upgrading,
uh, plastics recycling is at this moment, uh, the big team for us.
Victoria: Excellent.
And you guys are, um, you, you have a presence in North
America as well as in Europe.
Is that right?
Absolutely.
Eric: And all the presence in Europe is what you see in the screen together with
my colleague who does PR from Germany.
And, uh, we are essentially a Canadian outfit.
We are based in London, but in London, Ontario with about 25 people, uh,
laboratory people, that sort of thing.
Victoria: Okay.
That's helpful.
Cause I knew that I didn't realize that it was just you and Stephanie as the European
Eric: Yeah.
Yes.
Victoria: awesome.
That's exciting.
So, you know, Eric, you've seen a lot throughout your career, um,
and a lot of the evolutions of companies and industry, et cetera.
And today we're, we're in an era of sustainability, um, driven
by a lot of things, right?
Recognition that we need to have a cleaner, more sustainable
environment, recognition that we want to reduce carbon in the environment.
And so there's a big focus and yet we are also seeing companies dialing
back on commitments to sustainability, circularity and recycling.
Why do you think that's happening?
Eric: Yeah.
That is a very good question indeed.
And I actually took some time to review what I have been doing
over the last four decades.
And, um, I came to the conclusion that, um, Almost every job, I was in touch
with sustainability and why is that?
Well, sustainability often makes a lot of sense also commercially.
And so if we're trying to reduce energy consumption, that's good for the planet.
There's less emissions, but also your cost of your processes go down.
And that's just a very good idea.
If you take away some last contamination in a product that is of course good for
the planet, but it is also good for The product as you offer it to your customers.
And I think that is also leading to why you may be seeing now a little
bit of a dialing back in the end of the day, sustainability cannot be
paid for by good intentions only.
It has to make sense.
I actually sometimes say If a solution is actually not financially viable
or financially less attractive, it probably actually means that it is
less sustainable because I had to sacrifice more scarce resources.
And I think what we are seeing now is a typical development that you see
always when something is really hot.
A lot of people go on the track, try to do all sorts of clever ideas,
and not all ideas will make it.
I have a little anecdote, uh, around, I think it's in 1904, there was
something like 396 car companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange.
And how many are there today?
And so you do see that many of people have ideas, consolidation,
some will fall by the wayside.
Victoria: Yeah.
Eric: And some technologies are obvious winners.
If I'm from the Netherlands, if I look to our part of the North Sea, perfect
area, there's always wind, it's not very deep, we have tons of customers
nearby, wind energy is a no brainer.
But solar energy in our country, well, although it is doing better
than you think, and well, we are as north as Labrador here, And so in
the winter, our days are very short and it becomes less attractive.
And I think that is what we are seeing.
It is a natural selection process that we are witnessing.
There are periods that everybody is running behind something.
A lot of things are started.
And then, yeah, inevitably, some things will turn out better than others.
So I'm not worried.
In the Netherlands, we are now moaning that certain Recycling companies don't
make it, but I think it is part of life.
There's probably all of a sudden 50 recycling companies and two
or three are not making it.
And yeah, the best will survive.
I think that's what you see.
Um, you also discover that's the other thing.
It is not easy.
Victoria: No.
Eric: and we shall never underestimate how incredibly
efficient our existing industries are.
And yeah, of course, they have 100 years to become really good.
And yes, we shall give good technologies the time to get there.
But they also put the burden on.
So you just have to deliver.
And I think that is normal.
And it will only make the world better.
Victoria: Yeah.
I think that's great.
I think so many, good nuggets in there.
I think, um, your analogy comparing this to automobile companies back
in the early nineteen hundreds is great because you're right.
Everybody had an idea, but the reality is only a handful.
We're truly profitable and, um, replicable to the extent that
it needed to be and sustainable.
If we use sustainable by another word, just meaning being able
to provide that longevity.
The other piece, and I talk about this with folks is I do think
the chemical industry in many ways is inherently circular.
We're circular.
Because it's profitable because we, you know, somebody saw a waste stream going
to a flare and said, surely there's a better way of using those molecules.
And, oh, sure enough, it gets diverted.
It gets turned into something else that creates a revenue stream.
So I think, um, all of the.
New developments that we're seeing today, um, from Aduro and from other companies,
as we develop, sustainable technologies, um, Has to be profitable, has to, make
sense on a number of levels and, uh, and ultimately, you know, things will
shake out and there will be winners.
Eric: And of course you have to be honest in what things cost.
Because gone are the days that you can belch out any sort of
dirty gas and not pay for it.
And thank God it hasn't.
And by putting a price on it, it has been encouraged to develop new technologies.
And yes, we will probably, well, we have that already in Europe,
we in America, you're paying for your carbon dioxide emissions.
And that's a good thing.
And then you can, then you are realizing that I am consuming something.
Just like when I'm consuming a raw material, when I'm emitting something,
when I'm consuming clean air.
As long as the pricing is fair, you will get the right incentives.
Towards a more sustainable
Victoria: Right.
Well, and I think the whole aspect of pricing is so interesting because it also
in some ways ties to, what technologies and approaches are going to be successful.
It also ties to kind of consumer and individual behavior.
Number one, consumer's willingness to pay more.
sustainable product they say they want.
Um, secondly, you talked about the, uh, plastic recycling and
just, that is a critical component of your technology, and others.
in consumer and individual behaviors play such a big role, right?
So I think this area of recycling has, it's got a lot of misconceptions, right?
So we assume, I assume you assume others, maybe assume that whatever we place in
a recycle bin is recycled and reused.
Um, that because it's a plastic or because it's a can, or because it's a bottle I
can put, I can, it's going to get used.
It's got a useful life.
And yet.
That's not always the case.
Can, can you talk about that?
Eric: Well, I'll start with a bit on the consumer behavior and
we talked a little bit up front.
I grew up in the Netherlands, as I told, and we have a small country and we do
not want to have a lot of landfills.
And I know nothing better, from child onwards, that the local
football club would come every month and collect my waste paper.
And they would bring it somewhere and someone would give them some money.
So everybody automatically
And now we are doing the same with green waste.
It's getting a bit busy in my yard.
But you do have a container for plastic waste, for green waste, for paper.
And that is how it works.
We always bring our bottles, actually without compensation, our glass
bottles, to the glass container.
Because they're everywhere.
And we have already for many years a deposit system of many bottles.
So, it is ingrained in that culture.
Yet, sometimes it's difficult.
If you are living in a high rise building in Rotterdam, it's more difficult.
And that is also where you sometimes have to show an understanding.
And in those areas, we see something that I also see coming
along in the United States.
That government say, well, you know what?
Don't bother.
You cannot have five containers on the 12th floor of, your high rise.
Just make sure you toss it in and we will develop an industrial separation.
And that works as well.
And I've seen that in Texas, but I also see that here.
And it also teaches us that solutions can be different in different parts of
the world, depending on social history, but also route, geography, circumstances.
And in the end of the day, let's face it, It makes no difference for
me to do, to throw my lemon peel in the green container or in one general
container and next to each other.
It's just a habit.
Victoria: it is a, and it's interesting, it is a habit and I think these are habits
that have to be developed early.
, we did our pre call, we talked about this and I also grew
up recycling the newspaper.
And in our case, it was
Eric: Yeah.
Victoria: Scouts that would collect it.
Are we, um,
And today we have curbside recycling and we use it, but so 1
of the big challenges, of course, certainly in a country like the U.
S.
and in other places is is we're so spread out.
Right?
That's at least an excuse that affects the economics of recycling it,
whether it be curbside recycling or in your buildings and what have you.
But there's so many, there's so much diversity of it.
It's not offered in many places.
Um, and it's a challenge.
It's a challenge because we need those recycled feedstocks.
What one we need to recycle just to, it's the right thing to do right.
In, in most cases, secondly, we need those recycled feedstocks and you
guys need those recycled feedstocks
Eric: Yeah.
Victoria: to, to make your technology successful.
So let's talk about what Aduro is doing in terms of.
Addressing these challenges, um, what, what aura's approach is
to sustainability and technology and what your solutions are.
Eric: Yeah.
Now, if we stick with your, uh, your, uh, your plastic bin, and in Canada, it is
a blue bin and here it's a yellow bag.
And we bring all those plastics nicely together, but you can also sort them
out at the Central Industrial Facility.
And there you have this whole heap of plastics.
What are we going to do with it?
The first thing you can do is you can pick out easy bits and an easy bit is an
article like a PET bottle that is discreet and that is made out of just one material.
Because if I have one material, I can easily convert it.
I can in theory just melt it and then blow a new bottle from it.
That's what we call mechanical recycling and that is a very attractive
technology because it requires little energy and little effort.
And in an ideal world, that is what we would like to do with everything.
And with some materials like paper or with cans, you can do that.
But plastic is unfortunately a little bit more complicated.
Because of all the plastic articles, and especially if you start to talk about
films that we use to package our foods and all that sort of thing, we are, uh,
we are looking at complicated materials.
To begin with, there is not just one material, but it is a piece 10.
And very often, we put several of those materials together.
In an article, the best example for me is always that wrap that you use
around cheese or fish packaging.
There is actually 11 different layers.
Victoria: No
Eric: And each layer does something.
One layer keeps out the stinky cheese smell.
One keeps the bugs out.
One keeps the water in.
And they all have their functionality.
And that's a marvelous product.
Because as a result of that, my cheese is not going to perish in days.
But you can actually keep it for sometimes years.
But, recycling wise, it is a nightmare.
And dealing with that diversity is an enormous problem and cost factor.
And then, of course, once it has been in the bin, in theory, anything can be on it.
Victoria: Right.
Eric: Any germ, pathogen, uh, medical rest, or whatever else.
And that is when you lose sometimes the applicability of that recycled stuff.
Because you do not really want to pack your fresh food in something
that was yesterday in a bin with a very undefined environment.
So that is why that mechanical recycling, as we call it, which is just picking
out and remelting, has its limitations.
And then comes in chemical recycling.
Then you say, okay, all that plastic that is too dirty or too
unknown or too unpredictable.
I'm going to try and turn that back into chemical feedstock.
That is our business, but then how good can you do it?
And I'll tell you, there is more than a hundred companies who are in their
business, but Aduro is the one and only that does something different.
And I almost dare to say all the hundred pursue one technology, whereas
we pursue on our own another one.
Victoria: Hmm.
Eric: Now, what do the other guys do?
They say, okay, I'll take all that plastic and I'll just crank up the heat.
And then the stuff falls to pieces and I get something that
looks a little bit like gasoline.
NAFTA.
And that is a feedstock for the petrochemical industry.
Unfortunately, in that process, all the impurities that you started out with,
Are going to travel all the way through and they end up in your gasoline as well.
And before you can then take it into a major chemical outfit,
you have to clean it up.
We call that upgrading.
And in that upgrading, we remove all that contaminant.
We also, uh, upgrade the so called saturation.
That's a chemical term which I will not touch anymore.
But, uh,
And now we come back to that chemical, that, that, that financial argument.
You may argue like, okay, but waste is for free.
Well, actually waste is not for free because you had to
collect it at the curbside.
You probably had to wash it or take some dirt out.
And subsequently you did some sorting and you took these easy bits out.
And by the time you are looking at that heap of dirty film, you're looking
at a hundred, two hundred dollars
Victoria: Yeah.
And to your point, I think, uh, every part along the value chain
want, needs to make a profit.
Right.
So,
Eric: exactly.
Else it won't, else the wheel won't spin,
Victoria: So, when I talk to people today about in particular PET, um, recycling
and the cost of getting PET bales, it's, it's actually quite expensive, right?
And you know, there's markers out there, there's traded
values or track values on it.
Um, and it's expensive because of the effort, that it takes to go in there.
Right.
So there's a
cost, but there's also a relatively small amount of useful product.
Eric: Compare it to crude oil, eh?
You go to some desert, you hit a hole in the ground.
Then you fill up your mammoth tank of a hundred thousand tons and you say
like to a big petrochemical company.
Yeah.
Logistically, it's much more easy.
Now the good thing about what we do at Aduro is that if we take that
heterogeneous mixture, we will deal with these contaminants in such a
way that they very elegantly leave the process through the side door.
And the oil, or the naphtha that we make, It's clean enough to be
sent into a petrochemical facility without any additional treatment.
And that is a colossal, that's a game
Victoria: That is a game changer.
Is this a catalytic process?
I mean, can you give, shed any insight into like how this is happening?
Eric: Yeah, I can try to do that.
And I apologize to the audience that is not that chemical.
But what we do is we do the process at a relatively low conditions
by using a catalyst, as you say.
So not as hot.
And, and what we do is by adding a little bit of water and a little
bit of a simple, organic molecule, think of ethanol or glycerol.
And we let several reactions happen at the same time.
And because of the presence of the water and that other molecule,
we are able to almost in situ refine that complicated dirtiness.
And produce a very clean hydrocarbon
Victoria: Interesting.
Eric: that you can stick into your chemical plant.
And that does not only mean that we save a lot of post-treatment costs, but it
also means that we do not do so much work up front because we can take that
dirty mix rather than a highly pure
Victoria: And you still have to find a place to send the
impurities, but you're doing it
in a different way.
Eric: You'll concentrate that and as you say, the, the whole value
circle, as I call it in of value chain, it still has to shape up.
But I could see that that may go for that.
You're talking about less than 10 percent of the original.
Maybe that goes to incineration.
Maybe it goes to a gasification and back to something.
And you may even get to minerals recovery, but that is all far away.
And that is, that's not our home turf.
Victoria: Yeah.
Interesting.
So what's been the customer or market response to your
technology and your offerings?
Eric: And it's very interesting.
And the first question is, of course, who are my customers?
Victoria: yeah, that is a great question, actually.
Yes.
Eric: I talked about your, uh, your value circle.
And there are a number of actors.
One actor is the petrochemical industry.
They are, of course, used to big chemicals and they could handle it.
But they have an interesting question, dooming, looming, and that is the
obligation to supply circular carbon.
We are going to a situation where we will have minimal recycle content.
And then it is better that you have that.
So they have a big interest.
And I think I'm fair if I'm saying that any big petrochemical company that I
have approached with our story loved it.
And they are all following it and they're asking for clarifications.
And of course they are picky.
And of course they are critical, but they really see that what we do,
which is recycling of that carbon at the lowest possible cost and at
the lowest possible loss and at the lowest possible aftertreatment and
complexity holds tremendous promise.
So I have easily 10 major petrochemicals all over the world who are Literally
observing very closely what we're doing.
But it's not only them, because on the other side, is the guys
that collect all the waste.
The waste management companies.
And they have to make a living as well, by creating as much value as
possible from those waste streams.
And they also realize that, hey, I do need a solution for the dirty stuff,
to make the whole recycling affordable.
It is always easy to take a 20 percent that is easy to recycle, but, hey,
by the way, what am I now going to do with that 80 percent that is left?
And that is obviously more horrible than what I started out with.
So they need a solution for everything.
And that is why I, it's actually a bit of a tendency of the last
months that I noticed that the waste management companies realized that
they need a good suite of technologies.
To deal with all that plastic and then all that plastic and no sort
of hazy leftovers that I have to landfill anyway or something like
Victoria: Yeah.
I like, I like that description of a suite of technologies.
Cause I do think it's, there's not going to be a single
winner or loser in this, that
there has
Eric: no.
Absolutely not.
Victoria: of technology solutions, approaches,
um, that will help us win the game.
Eric: yeah, absolutely.
Victoria: are you guys on your path to commercialization?
Right.
I know from talking to other leaders in this space that it is
not a straightforward path, nor short.
Eric: No, we started a little bit late because most people on competing
pathways, they started already at 2005.
It's a long time ago, but it sounds, and it sounds odd, but in those
days we were very nervous that we didn't have enough fossil carbon.
And that was very quickly resolved by by some creative people in the
United States who discovered fracking or upgraded fracking and then
suddenly that problem was solved.
But a lot of people at that moment started to work converting plastic waste to fuels.
And then they went, of course, all a bit into hibernation, but
they had all the technology ready.
And when the plastic case came up, they could just pick it up again.
We came from that, um, that corner of bitumen.
And it was our first, uh, trick.
And it is only like four years ago that he said, okay, let's see what
we can do with plastic waste as well.
We are now at a stage where we're building our pilot plant,
continuous integrated pilot plant.
And that will be right in the beginning of next year.
Then we will be able to test all sorts of wastes.
We will be able to set all sorts of conditions.
And then it should go quickly towards commercial installations.
Victoria: Targeting initially North America.
Obviously you guys are Canadian based.
Is the target North America
Eric: is a very good question.
This is very, uh, here you're almost into politics.
Which are the places where you will have traction first?
And you can argue in Europe we have a long tradition of recycling.
We also have a tradition, which is a little bit less well known, that chemical
industry takes liquids as a feedstock.
And so Europe might be a very good place to start out with.
The beauty that I always have had about North America, and that's why my sons
and I, we love places like Texas, if something works, you just go for it.
And you build for it and you access your massive capital markets and your
scaling ability and not for the first time you might see here that in the
end of the day, uh, in North America, the first factories might come along
because it works so kind of hard to say.
But I have also a company in Southeast Asia who is very interested.
This is, of course, one of those areas where plastic waste in the
environment is a colossal problem because in the end of the day.
In America and in Europe, we at least collect this garbage.
But in those countries, that is not always logical.
So tremendous interest from Southeast Asia, uh, tremendous interest
from Latin America, uh, where it will go first, anybody's guess.
I would say Europe, very likely.
But I do also see good possibilities in especially the United States.
Victoria: Yeah, well, I guess we'll see, right.
This is all
Eric: Yeah.
Yeah.
Victoria: part of the game and part of the gamble in some ways, right.
To see where's the solutions, uh, how they really manifest and when, how they
Eric: And you must be open.
That is very important.
What is very important for us also for that reason is that we talk to everyone.
So rather than withdrawing a laboratory and cooking up a very
nice solution, we should be in a permanent dialogue with the industry.
And you will see that there will be changes.
I think 10 years ago, everybody was thinking like, Oh yeah, we will have
beautiful, clean plastics to recycle.
Unfortunately, that's not the case.
Uh, and if you would have built your proposition on that, you
would be dead in the water.
And I think it is very important to be everywhere, listen to the possibility
and also tune your proposition.
In America, we need a different way of products and we'll do that.
Yeah.
Victoria: I think there's, I mean, certainly governmental regulations,
has a huge part to play in this, both in, in the investments and
what's being offered to support sustainable and green technologies.
That's one side of it, but also even in terms of what products
are, um, allowed to be used.
Yeah.
Right.
With in the countries.
And I know, you know, uh, France famously banned, uh, plastic wrap
on cucumbers and other vegetables.
Right.
So that you could like, okay, well, that's great.
So you're not going to get that, but you know, in the U S it's
still prevalent and elsewhere.
So I think there's just different local customs and local practices.
Yeah.
So, okay.
So I want to turn to a question that, by the way, I didn't tell you,
I was going to ask you this, but.
I know that you can handle it.
I want to talk about leadership, right?
So you've
obviously experienced big companies, private companies, small
companies, developing companies.
What are the two or three defining characteristics of leaders that are
able to really achieve growth and take a new, you know, a new business,
a new technology and evolve it?
What do you see as being critical?
Eric: I can allude to the name of the,
and I've actually been always in the business of bringing new ideas
and technologies to the market and I have recognized three factors.
That have to work.
And the first one is, is what I call real strengths.
And that means that you must have something that is really differentiated.
And that is, and it's not like 5 percent better than other things.
It must be.
If you start from scratch, you better start from a really good idea.
Marginal improvement is the good territory for the big companies.
They will optimize and they have the time for it.
If you bring something new, it has, you have to build on a real strength.
A really good idea, well protected.
Victoria: Yeah.
Eric: The other thing that is of course very important, there must be a real need.
And I have worked quite a bit in my earlier career, for instance, in
supplying to the cosmetics industry.
And we were always saying, yeah, yeah, they want to have, of course they
want to have vegetable ingredients.
But as soon as she then came down and was costing five pennies more, uh,
they actually happily took, uh, the fossil ingredients or whatever else.
It is actually an industry that is not green at all.
And so there was no real need.
And you must be brutal that this was actually not a need.
And it was silly to pursue that idea because that was something
that you concocted up yourself.
And the third thing that is incredibly important is, um,
is an alignment of the stars.
And what I mean by that is there are millions of reasons why your customers,
even if you had the best idea, would say, yes, thank you, but no, thank you.
And you do have to find those Interactions where you have them.
That's why I want to talk to many customers because customers, A,
B, and C might say, Oh, this is a brilliant idea, but you know what?
I just changed my CEO last time that I have an issue with my factory here.
And there is millions of reasons why people will not take something.
You have to very aggressively hunt for what it is.
What does it mean in terms of leadership?
Be brutally honest.
About how good your idea is and what your customer really wants.
And the second one is be open and be searching and be on the
hunt and find those pockets where your idea is going to work.
So be out looking a lot of startups.
And in my previous job, I was director of an innovation campus where we had
More than a hundred companies trying to do things and a lot of startups as well.
The ones that are really like this are the ones that you saw a real
need, real strength, but also a strong outlooking attitudes and too many
stay in the laboratory and try to make it even better without actually
knowing what a customer wants.
Victoria: Yeah.
I have
progress over perfection.
Eric: yeah, leadership must be outside in looking and it must be brutally honest.
Victoria: Wow.
That's good.
I like that.
All right.
So, Eric, what should we be looking forward to from you and
from Aduro Clean Technologies over the next 12 to 18 months?
Eric: Well, to begin with, we are, of course, now on that
very exciting scaling trend.
I hope that we will be able to attract a lot of people.
And what I would like to create is a theater where interested companies,
being in petrochemical or being at a waste management company or others,
brand owners, all welcome, where they can witness what we are doing and where
they will be impressed by what we do.
I have no hesitation that our technology from where we are now will be readily
scalable and that we will reach that.
The other theater where we are acting and that is the sort of beautiful
ambidextrous life of a good startup.
This is that we are working with investors.
We are financed by retail investors, and it is a fantastic thing to
realize that we are going to be listing on the Nasdaq very soon.
Victoria: That's exciting.
Eric: attract more, uh, more money, more funds for this one.
Victoria: Are you, are you currently listed today?
Eric: We are listed in Toronto
and in Frankfurt.
Uh, on, on, uh, starters, uh, exchange, but that's relatively low liquidity,
obviously by going to the United States, uh, you come in, in heaven of capital.
Victoria: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's very cool.
And I think, uh, I, until recently I hadn't realized that, startup companies
such as yours were actually listing on the NASDAQ to, as a means of raising capital.
So I think that's really exciting.
Eric: Yeah.
Yeah.
There's actually, originally it starts often by making your retail
investors able to, to trade.
Yeah.
Because there's no liquidity, of course, until you're enlisted, but
it is done in a secondary step.
But it becomes a way To attract money.
And we have done a couple of raises in a row.
We've, by the way, never traded down.
Every new raise was for a higher price than before.
And, uh, yeah, that, that is how we work.
And this would be a very exciting next step.
Victoria: Can't wait to see it.
Yeah.
Well, Eric, thank you.
Thank you for, taking the time to speak with me today.
I love what you are doing with our Aduro Clean Technologies and, uh,
I think it's going to be great.
Eric: Thank you so much.
I enjoyed this very much.
Victoria: Absolutely.
And thank you everyone for joining us today.
Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will
talk with you again soon.