Intro: teenage hackers
Let Me Run This By You: setting limits with Kanye
Interview: We talk to Josh Sobel about
Cal Arts,
Travis Preston, Yale School of Drama,
Robert Brustein,
Fig and the Wasp,
Oberlin College, The
O'Neill Theater Center,
Michael Cadman,
Royal Shakespeare Company, Chicago ensemble theatre,
Strawdog Theatre Company, Ianesco's
Rhinoceros, Rochester NY,
Brighton High School,
A Chorus Line,
Cabaret,
horizontal hierarchies,
The Wooster Group, change talk vs. change action,
Chris Ackerlind,
Light in the Piazza,
Paula Vogel's
Indecent, Samantha Behr,
Haven Chicago, T
he Den Theater,
Rochester Philharmonic,
Lorenzo Palomo,
Ian Martin,
Hal Prince,
Dr. Seuss' The Sneetches,
John de Lancie,
Rochester Academy of Medicine, radiation oncology, The
Xylophone West by Alex Lubischer,
Isaac Gomez's The Displaced,
Center Theatre Group,
Jeremy O'Harris' Slave Play,
Rashaad Hall,
Chris Jones' review of Ms. Blakk for President.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
3 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
3 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (32s):
I think, I think my son has fig he's gotten into sort of like the hacking side of things and he always wants to get around all of the restrictions we put on him. Like we have content restrictions, we have time limits. And I think he's just made it his mission. I mean, this is like the theme of his life. He has made it his mission to subvert the paradigm as my husband would say. And it's exhausting because all I can do is try to be like 10 steps behind them and learn like what's a VPN. That's what I, I think what he did. I think he installed a VPN to bypass the internet control that I have.
2 (1m 20s):
Oh
1 (1m 20s):
My God.
2 (1m 22s):
And it somehow how that relates to, I can watch, I couldn't tell you. I can tell you that if I turn off the wifi, I can watch it on my cellular data.
4 (1m 33s):
It's insane.
2 (1m 35s):
Yeah. It's, it's beyond insane. I, and you know, I like, I'm always on this thing where I'm vacillating between letting it go and just trying harder to, you know, impose the limit. I mean, you, I wouldn't, before I had kids, I would not have imagined it was this hard to impose limits on people, you know, because you don't want them to not have what they want. Right.
4 (2m 6s):
Right.
2 (2m 7s):
And, and it's a real battle to like, make myself, give myself and my children limits. It's really hard.
4 (2m 17s):
My God. Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing I'm stuck on, it's like maybe there was okay. I think I'm like trying to figure out the thing, which is like, I know what I think I know what happened. So you have restrictions on content. Like, and I think a genius, the Kanye trilogy, like completely has all those triggers in it. Like all the things are in it. There's sex, suicide. There's, there's, it's all the things you, I wouldn't want a susceptible teenager to watch. Right. Like just for various reasons, not, not for anything other than triggers. Right. So like my nieces and nephew, the same thing, so, okay.
4 (2m 57s):
So then you set that right? And you're like, no, no, but then the kid or anyone can get a VPN, which then resets, I think the con, but I think you're still on the, you're still, you're still on the content warning site, which is blocking genius. You from watching genius. That is fucking, I mean, it's kind of genius in a way, but it's also so infuriating. It's like, come on, dude. I'm just trying to watch my fucking Kanye west bullshit.
2 (3m 26s):
It's literally just this race of like today I'm on top. And then the next day it's like, oh my God, they, they, they run the show. I'll never forget. There was a scene in the first season of the Sopranos where Tony and Carmel are having a problem with Anthony, or maybe it was with the daughter, a meadow and they're in their bedroom. And he goes, if she finds out, we have no power. We're screwed. And I laughed. It was the time I had watched it after I had teenagers. Yeah. Like that's what it is. We actually have no power. And yet the, the, the con that we're forced to do is pretend like we have all the power.
2 (4m 12s):
It's
4 (4m 13s):
Like
2 (4m 13s):
Covering
4 (4m 14s):
A metaphor also for life about like my mom's friend sent me something that said, you know, I forget it was like her friend had passed away and it's not fair and it's not fair. And I, and it isn't, and that's the thing. Like it, the truth is not fair. Like it sucks. But like, and, and we pretend that things are fair because if we don't, it's absolute chaos. Like if we didn't pretend really that red means stop and green means go, we'd have a real fucking problem. If we all rebelled and said, you know what, fuck you, green means go. And red means stop. And we all sent a mass media thing around.
4 (4m 56s):
There would be chaos. It would be
2 (5m 13s):
The bus. And I guess that's just the headline right there. That's like the headline in the story. Like you took the bus from LA to San Fran, Fran, because gas is so expensive.
4 (5m 22s):
Well, many things. Okay. So driving, it's really a grind on the five coming home, especially it's like, so rough, like, it can be a nine hour instead of five, six hours situation. It's crazy. Cause the five sucks. So, so that was the first like, and then gas. So I wasn't gonna drive cause I did the drive Thanksgiving and it was like, oh God. And then, so I was like, okay, well I'll, I'll just, I I'll fly. But then I'm afraid to fly. Even though the flight is literally 45 minutes. And then I was like, okay, but then because of gas, I said, okay, I'm going to just get my balls into it. I'm going to build up my balls and I'm going to fly. But then because of gas, you know, does jets use gas fuel though?
4 (6m 6s):
The flights really went up six San Francisco. You shouldn't even get a flight for a hundred bucks on Southwest round trip, like 120. No, no, two 20. So I'm like, oh no. So then I say, okay, well I'll take my Amtrak. Of course, which is actually what I, what I looked at first. But the track of it, it's a beautiful ride. It takes forever, but it goes up the coast and it's gorgeous. And you can like bid to get a fancy room,
2 (6m 28s):
Right? Yeah.
4 (6m 29s):
Well, okay. Well the tracks being repaired, so then you'd have to take a Greyhound. I'm not taking a Greyhound. So then I was like, okay, what would it take a fancy bus? And it's a flick
2 (6m 38s):
Of a fancy
4 (6m 39s):
Flex bus flicks. And Flix is big in Europe and they're charter buses and they have bathrooms and it's like assigned seating. And I bought two seats because I was like, fuck you. And it's so inexpensive, but still listen. I just, you know, and I worked, my dad was an addict. I have food addict issues. I get addicts. So don't come. People don't come at me for saying this. But the bus is a place where heroin, heroin, addicts thrive. Like that
2 (7m 9s):
Is the heroin addict doing on the
4 (7m 11s):
Bus nodding out. So there's two, there was a couple and I was like, oh, these are heroin addicts. They just looked so like, their luggage was all fucked up. They couldn't barely get on the bus. They were fighting young people, LA style tattoos. Fine. I am tattoos. It's not that they, but it was like this very specific look thin bedraggled, but not, not, not a curated look like more like, I'm just fucked up inappropriate clothing for the weather. Like big. Although in San Francisco is cold. Maybe they need something. I didn't know. They had like heavy coats on it's like 90 degree, all their shit. Right? Like they're, you know, I've got one little carrier. They've got like bags, like big things.
4 (7m 52s):
Okay. And that you can check, but you have to pay more for it. And their suitcases are falling apart. Okay. Fine. But they have cell phones, which is so, but a lot of people have cell phones. I mean, I I'm always shocked when people have cell phones that look like they shouldn't, I'm like, what? How do you maintain that? But anyway, so they get on an immediate, they sit in the, they got the seats in the way back, which is like a little bigger, but also your brother bathroom's gross, but they just not out immediately. They get on and like midfoot, mid fighting. They just like pass out and I'm like, oh my God. Like not out like out. And then don't wake up until we get there. Like literally it's an eight hour ride.
4 (8m 32s):
They don't get up at all.
2 (8m 35s):
Wow. They'd probably been awake. Yeah. Or I guess maybe not
4 (8m 41s):
How
2 (8m 42s):
It works with the
4 (8m 42s):
Heroin. Well, it depends like, I mean,
2 (8m 44s):
Not the heroin.
4 (8m 46s):
That's my new band name. That's our new band name. The heroin's got mics on two levels.
2 (8m 51s):
Yeah,
4 (8m 53s):
That was good. Gina. Okay. So no for me and my, my, my clients were a lot of them on heroin. And what would happen is like, you can't always get heroin. Right. Because it's expensive. And because I mean, it's cheaper than whatever, but it's expensive. And then, so you go without it and you start to detox and then you're up, you can't sleep. You're a mess. And then when you finally score again or whatever, get your heroin, then you just feel great for about half an hour. Then you pass out. It's just so it's such a waste, but okay. It's a process.
2 (9m 25s):
You know, although I would never want to be a heroin addict. I will say something like what's occurring to me. As you're talking about this couple is like, you know how with addicts, their life is very focused around just scoring or whatever. So to be able to have your life goals in these little chunks is really appealing to me.
4 (9m 47s):
Yeah. Well, it's a very, very, very specified job
2 (9m 52s):
World. Right? You make, I think when you're a heroin addict, you must have a really small world and your objectives are like, get score. That's at a place to
4 (10m 1s):
Sleep and don't get arrested and don't
2 (10m 3s):
Get, don't get arrested. Like there's something and I, I'm sorry to be cheeky about it. Cause people have really suffered with heroin addiction. I, I'm not suggesting that people, anybody should be an addict. I'm just saying like the idea
4 (10m 14s):
Yeah. To you. It's like, yeah, me too.
2 (10m 17s):
Actually even just the other day I was thinking I was watching somebody who had, what I imagined was probably a minimum wage job. And I don't remember what the job was now, but I just, I was looking at the person doing their tasks and I was thinking, yeah, maybe I should get a job like that. You know? And then 30 seconds in, I'm really trying to imagine myself. And I'm like, what am I talking about? Oh, people don't love working at McDonald's. Don't love, you know, whatever the
4 (10m 47s):
Jobs. And I will in, in adulthood in 30 dumb, in 40 dumb, like the last one I had at that fucking donut shop, I was like, oh, this seemed quaint. The chef was a jerk. I got in like a fight with the chef was so rude. Like here I am 42, right. Or 43 or something. And I was working at this place in Rogers park for like cash only under the table owned by these two young SIRS. They, whatever their business was working. But like the fucking chef was like talking shit about me. Like,
2 (11m 23s):
Is that a doughnut chef? No,
4 (11m 28s):
I should have said that. No, they also serve sandwiches. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I was
2 (11m 33s):
Just thinking to myself, like, do you have to be a chef?
4 (11m 36s):
No, that's hilarious. But she was like, or they were, they were talking shit about me. And I was like, oh no, no, no. And I was basically volunteering there. I was so outraged. I was like This person that
2 (11m 51s):
To read an essay about that, you've got, write an essay about your donut shop stint.
4 (11m 55s):
Oh, I will. And I want to name names. They were fucking assholes. And also they, like, when I went to confront the PR, like I was like, I like when you walk behind someone you're supposed to stay behind. Right. But if you've never worked in the restaurant industry that does not come naturally. And also I'm really fast moving. So like I just met, she goes, you have to stay behind. And I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna fucking kill you. And then she would under her breath talk shit to me about to the other people. And so, and so I finally, you get them, you get them every time, this way. So I pulled the owner aside and I was really upset, like crying because she was treating me like shit. And I said, listen, what the fuck is this? And then the next, the person wanted to then that the owner was like, look, this lady is doing as a favor by working here basically because we have no one and she's working on under the table.
4 (12m 42s):
So then the, the, the person wanted to talk to me, the chef and I talked to her, I'm like what? She goes, I'm sorry. If I come off a little, I go, oh no, no, you don't come off. You are. And I said, I don't know what's happening here. I'm like, just try to do my job and go the fuck home and make my money to pay my cell phone bill, bitch. Like I wrote that and then I just quit. I was like, fuck all. Y'all. So, no, it sounds really quaint, which is why I fucking get those jobs. And then you get in there and you're like, oh, this is how on earth.
2 (13m 11s):
Oh God, I am sure it was, I
4 (13m 15s):
Don't do
2 (13m 15s):
It. Yeah, no, no, I won't. I will not do it. It just, it just periodically, it just occurred to me
4 (13m 20s):
Because there's a set skill set set of tasks that no one eat you ma I imagine that no one is like on their high horse. No, no. People are still on their fucking high horse in minimum wage jobs. There's a hierarchy of fucking assholes anywhere you've.
2 (13m 37s):
But then I did get to watch the third episode of the Kanye documentary and then, okay, well, I didn't finish it though. I'm only like 20 minutes into it. It's so sad. Right? It's going to go on. It's going to turn
4 (13m 50s):
It. It does. But in also in an unexpected way, what I will say, I think we should talk about the third episode next time. Okay.
2 (13m 58s):
But
4 (13m 59s):
The first two, for me, fucking amazing in the storytelling, whether, regardless of how I feel about Kanye west, which I don't feel any kind of way other than, I mean, I just, I I'm talking about the, since we're about to make a documentary, right? Like I'm looking at, I love the first two. I love cooties filmmaking. And the first two episodes, it then takes a turn on the third, but like the first two are so packed with information and visuals and, and storytelling.
4 (14m 39s):
Like, I loved it. You and you also get a S he such a great job of like showing a slice of time, you know, and, and, and all the characters in it and real life people we know and get glimpses of. And I just thought, and for me, the most moving part of it, I mean, I have real lot of feelings about Donda and Connie's relationship and Donda herself. I have a lot of diagnoses for both of them, but I'm not, you know, like, I feel like she's got bipolar. Like, I think there's a whole thing going on there, but what I found, I have never, I have never been so moved for, for the hustle and the perseverance of a human being and the just sort of neutral and unwavering.
4 (15m 32s):
We know it's not really true, but like they're like, but the unwavered, what I saw was an unwavering unshakable, almost naive belief in oneself.
2 (15m 42s):
This is what I wanted to talk to you about. This is what I wanted to run by you. Cause the, the connection between talking about that, me working on the documentary and, and this a, I agree with you, Cody is an amazing documentarian. And we could totally learn a lot from the way that he weaved his own personal story into that, his relationship with this, you know, mega personality. But yeah, you know, the scene where he's talking to a bunch of kids and he's, he's talking about self-compassion, I mean, he, he has a point, you know, what, what should you, you created an amazing piece of art and somebody compliments you on it and you you're supposed to pretend like you're dumb.
2 (16m 29s):
You all, you don't agree that it's, that it's amazing. You know, like there's something to be said for that. And there's something to be said for what you're just describing the unshakable confidence, but I want to hear what your thoughts are about their relationship.
4 (16m 45s):
It was interesting to watch the process of what I would call a simultaneous process of infantilizing him as well as idolizing him as well as parental defying him, as well as believing in him. It's a combo platter. And I believe from watching her and watching what I noticed in her mannerisms and his that I think they both had a mania thing going on, like in her eyeballs. So I have become really good at looking at people's eyeballs.
4 (17m 26s):
And I notice in the documentary, as it goes along when Kanye is manic, his voice goes up in pitch and his eyeballs looked different and she had this eyeball situation, which is this sort of darty, Desperate eyeballs. And I noticed it in my clients all the time and I'd be like, oh, they're manic, they're manic. It's not an, and it's like, hypomania, it's not for her. But like, I saw that in her. And I was like, oh, like, what's happening? Where am I going? What's happening? Who can I okay. And, and covered with a bit of like, you know, self-help, you can do it this and perseverance, but it's, it's all a combo platter, but that was my take.
4 (18m 15s):
What was on their relationship was like a, I need you, you need me, what's happening. I'm worried about you, but I'm going to then hope that by, by really pumping you up, that I'm going to pump up the mental illness away.
2 (18m 31s):
<inaudible>. Yeah. Well, I, I agree with what you say about the, their relationship, their dynamic, and it makes sense that yeah, maybe she had a touch of the bipolar too. What I was thinking about it is, and like I say, I haven't gotten through the third episode, but what I was thinking is it's so evident how meaningful their relationship was to both of them, but in this case for, for him and that he could just maybe spend the rest of his life, chasing that relationship, chasing a woman who will fall over him, the way that she did.
2 (19m 14s):
I mean, really what it seems like, what he needs is a person who kind of use it as their sole purpose in life to, to, to support his genius, which is why he probably makes a terrible partner, But that the, she gave him like this, like she was mainlining love to.
4 (19m 35s):
Yeah.
2 (19m 37s):
And you know, he's unlikely to find that any place else. Right,
4 (19m 41s):
Right.
2 (19m 41s):
But he's still looking, I think, Well,
4 (19m 46s):
And then it's really interesting. So like Cody gave up his whole life to, to follow him and it wasn't enough. Like it, it becomes not enough. And then when the person literally is removed by death, then what do you do is what we're seeing in the documentary. But like the it's, it's a it's, it's so fucked up because I, I feel like from watching from the outside, she must've felt like she was his only hope. Right. Which is which, okay. Which I'm sure is it's
2 (20m 18s):
Hard to me was her only hope.
4 (20m 19s):
No, she was, she's like, I'm my son's only advocate. Right? My old, his only hope for love and happiness comes from me ultimately. And whatever went down in his childhood, I have to make up for what other, all of them, with the other, all the mothers stuff happens. Right. I can imagine. And then it's like, yeah, it sets him up to be, like you said, chasing that the rest of his entire life. And she's not going to be around forever. And she did the best she could. And she did so much compared to what a lot of people do. And he's, it's just, it, you throw in mega stardom in there and it is a recipe for absolute meltdown.
2 (21m 6s):
It actually, it really relates to the thing we were talking about when we started talking today, which is about limits and limit setting. And I think I mentioned to you that I'm also reading this book about Sandy hook conspiracy and the straight line between Sandy hook conspiracy and the January 6th instruction. But in the part of the book where they're talking about Adam Lanza and his mother, I hadn't heard this before that, you know, he, he he'd been flagged in the psychiatric system, you know, going back since he was a young boy and I don't know why she opted out of treatment for him. But what I do know from this book is that what she strove to do was keep meeting his needs wherever they were.
2 (21m 53s):
But because he was so mentally ill, his needs were things like w w when he had his, the intake at Yale, the clinician noted that he said to his mother, you need to stand with no part of your body touching the wall and that she just did it. And that at home, it had gotten too, there were things he couldn't have cooking odors, curtains, door knobs.
4 (22m 23s):
Yeah.
2 (22m 24s):
And she just kept meeting the need. And this was something that I really relate to. Hopefully I have not going off the rails like that, but when your child is suffering and what they're telling you is I want this thing, the decision to say, I know better than you. You think you want this thing, but that is not the right thing for you and for that child to be screaming in your face or not. But, you know, with all of their energy, all of their conviction, they're coming to you saying no, this with my kids, it's the screens.
2 (23m 4s):
No, I need my screen time. And I'm going. Yeah. But you, you can't know what I know, which is that you, it's not good for you. It's simply not good. And it's just so hard to tolerate when your child is enraged or hurt by you
4 (23m 22s):
Suffering the suffering.
2 (23m 24s):
So nobody said any limits for Kanye, and he's now floating like a balloon in the ether, right?
4 (23m 32s):
Yeah. It's, it's really bad. He's now he's now has restraining orders. And now he's got the Grammy said he can't perform there. So now the limits are being imposed that are huge. And I don't know what's going to, and I also, from working in Hollywood, what I noticed was it is so easy when you have money and power yeah. To, to develop a team that will, will do what you're saying. That, that Adam Lanza's Mrs. Or miss Lanza did. It's so easy to have that bought and built in.
2 (24m 15s):
And I will tell you this, my, one of my very most successful treatments that I did when I was at private practice therapist is I treated somebody with very, very severe borderline personality disorder. And it was a kind of situation where the client would quit all of the time, you know, quit, quit therapy. And then, and then you would do this dance of like, they, you know, they don't really mean it. So you don't, you don't give up their appointment time because they're going to show up. Sometimes they're going to show up and act like nothing happened. Like they never said they were going to quit. So with this one person that I've been working with for a really long time, and we had a good relationship, which, which is to say yes, she was very, very sick.
2 (25m 4s):
And she was very, very difficult, but also she had so many great qualities that it kept me. Like, it kept me really invested in her, but the 50th time or whatever it was that she quit after I, she was also in this group that I was running and she like got violent Sharna in the group and left and whatever. Anyway, this time around, when she quit treatment, I said, okay, we're done now. And then she showed up for her next appointment. And I said, no, we're, we're done now. And that precipitated a year long hospitalization for her, but this person is now doing amazing, honestly.
2 (25m 49s):
And I knew in her family dynamic, her parents were afraid to set limits with that because she was a very, very strong personality, but it was only through the limit setting anything. It had to go all the way to the end, right. For her and, and to, to reject and decry and be victimized and blah, blah, blah, for then her to like follow her dream College. She, she, I can't say what it is obviously, but she has a job that was the job of her dreams and that she learned, she only discovered was the job of her dreams in treatment and that she could have only gotten to do after having really had to contend with actually living with the limit.
0 (26m 42s):
Well,
3 (26m 55s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Josh <inaudible>. Josh is graduating this year with his MFA in directing from Cal arts. And he formerly had a whole career in Chicago as artistic director of the Haven in Chicago. And he has a lot of interesting insights about his experience of being in school again, after having well launched into his career. So please enjoy our conversation with Josh Sobel.
2 (27m 36s):
So Josh was just explaining the Cal arts is, I was saying, is it a conservatory? And he was saying, it's an art school in the truest sense. So go ahead and repeat what you're saying.
6 (27m 44s):
Yeah. So like Travis, who's an alum of like Yale back from the Robert Brustein days of Yale. He he's like, look, Yale school of drama is always considered like, Ooh, Yale school of drama, but he's like, if you think about it within the larger Yale structure, you've also got like the business school and like, you've got the journal, you've got the medical school, you've got all these things. So like within the theater universe, it's huge, but within the structure of the university, it Yale, you know, and so the beauty of Cal arts in a way is that it exists outside of that larger sort of academic structure. It isn't part of a university. It is an art school with a theater department.
6 (28m 27s):
And there's something that, that is really freeing honestly about that. And the Cal arts in particular sort of leaned into in terms of its sort of generative and, and experimental sort of Ben it's, it's been an interesting experience. Yeah, please.
2 (28m 45s):
Gina Bridget went there. Yes. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I think she's the another co Cal arts alum we have.
6 (28m 51s):
Well, and it's funny, cause you mentioned they were an acting alum and the acting program I have to say is in particular fascinating and unique. And I love it because unlike a lot of programs I've encountered and I've like taught in academia a little bit before I went in, before I started as a student in it, it's like very few programs encouraged teach and want their actors to be generative artists in their own. Right. And bring that to the table in the room. And honestly, as a director, I'm like, it's a gift. It is such a goddamn gift in terms of the collaborative process. Like I, I can sometimes when I'm hitting my own moment, like really feel comfortable being like, I need like a physical gesture representing a panic attack in slow motion that moves across the stage this way, take third, take 30 minutes.
6 (29m 44s):
Here's some music and an object.
4 (29m 46s):
Oh God, that sounds like the greatest thing I've ever heard.
6 (29m 51s):
I did something similar with a particular actor in my thesis show thesis show, quote unquote. And like she killed it. Oh my God. Avalon Greenberg call. She's about to graduate from the BFA program and she's, or a couple of years. And she's incredible. But like she ran with it and these actors are sort of prepared to take that and like, just make shit and be like, is this what it is? What does it need? And then I can sit there and like sculpt, we can then like work together to be like, Ooh, let's expand that moment out. Let's tighten that bit. And we're then working collaboratively on this other thing.
4 (30m 25s):
So amazing Josh, like, like I, I, I do this every time we talked to someone that I really like, and I like their vibe and I like how they're talking about their education. I'm like, oh, I'm going to apply there. And then I remember that I did apply to Cal arts for undergrad and I got a call back, which was like the greatest thing, because I was a terrible actor. And I like in the truest sense, like what you're talking about, I would have been like, so, so I am, so I am so glad to talk to you because I, when you say things like that, about how you direct as well, and I'm not a director, Gina directs, I don't direct, but like I want to work with someone who says shit like that.
6 (31m 7s):
Well, I, I really, I don't know. It's funny. I, you know, outside of like grad school, when I was in undergrad, I went to undergrad at Oberlin college, which is really sort of a diamond in the rough school for theater. It's like, and it's a lot of OBS do well out there. And it's weird because it's like, it's not known, but it's really good. But while I was there, I also did a semester at the O'Neill and I don't know if you're familiar, the national theater Institute. Yeah. So I, I did fall 2007 and like, I really lucked out my partner and I were a year apart actually, before we ever met weird small world, but we both walked out because we've got there right at the time as this particular artistic director was there, Michael Cadman, who was a, an alum himself of the Royal Shakespeare company.
6 (31m 52s):
And like he understood ensemble. It's funny. Cause I always like, what am I, I love Chicago and I miss Chicago so much, but one of my like little gripes with Chicago is that the word ensemble gets thrown out a
4 (32m 6s):
Lot.
6 (32m 7s):
And I, I have a very particular opinion about that because it's like, I think ensemble sometimes it's just meant to mean or thought to mean like a collection of actors, you know, or the company members, you know, the, the Steppenwolf ensemble or the straw dog or whatever. And I'm like ensemble is a value. I think ensemble is, is some it's about how one sits in the middle of a collaborative process. It's about how the threads are drawn. Not even just in the actors, it's about the threads are drawn outside to stage management, to producing, to designers, to everything. Like, and we're all coming together to sort of generate something together, right?
6 (32m 49s):
Like that's ensemble and Michael understood more than anyone I've ever met in my life. Like how to nurture, how to build, how to find the ensemble impulse in people. And he would just build semesters of the young students and sort of demonstrate that for for four months. And yeah, that's sort of been a foundational thing from that point forward. So I'm, I'm always ready to like chill for the O'Neil. Like, I love the, I love being,
2 (33m 16s):
Yeah. I actually live kind of near there. I live in Connecticut. Yeah. Oh, that's
6 (33m 21s):
Brilliant.
2 (33m 21s):
So you just made me think about something. Has any group of theater artists ever called the ensemble? Also the, the whole entire staff, like everybody on crew, because it is such a group effort. And we as act, this is one of the big things about, you know, going through an acting program, you just, and maybe it was just me, but you just think like, it's all about this. It's all about the actors and you just think everybody else is there supporting what you're doing.
4 (33m 55s):
Well,
6 (33m 56s):
It treats it like a technical term, right? It's like, it's a category. And rather than like, no, it's actually about an energy. It's about a trust. It's about something else. And I will say to answer your question like that w when I was a strong dog ensemble member, that that was one of the things I loved most about being on the straw dog ensemble was you had designers, you had managers, you had people like from every aspect of the creative process, sort of understood as part of the ensemble. It was all framed that way.
4 (34m 24s):
It's interesting. Like, I feel like what happens maybe is like, so take Steppenwolf because everyone talks about Steppenwolf as the original ensemble, which really you're right. A side note tends to mean in Chicago. And I can say this because I'm from there means that nobody is prettier or more famous than, than other actors. Like, that's what they mean by ensemble. Like that's how people talk about that. They're like, no, this is an ensemble piece. Meaning that even though you're really pretty, you're not going to be the star, like to someone, they never say that to me. You know what I mean? Okay. But anyway, side note, but ensembles. So when it's interesting, because it's like when a theater gets bigger, meaning a broader audience, more money, I feel like there becomes a really strong, clear delineation between technical staff and the actors.
4 (35m 15s):
And it comes, becomes compartmentalized probably because they have to run a freaking business with a multimillion dollar budget as we're like straw, dog. Like you can kind of stay it's like that storefront. It kind of, you can really get in there, which is how stepping will start it. So I think what we're talking about is the capitalization of the,
6 (35m 33s):
Oh, always, I mean, honestly, always all the time,
4 (35m 37s):
But yeah, but I'm, I'm curious about she and Gina, did you say
2 (35m 42s):
I did and I'm so sorry. I forgot to say Josh Sobell congratulations. Your surviving theater school. You're almost done
4 (35m 49s):
Art school theater school, you know, it's all the thing, but yeah. So I wanted to ask, I guess, take it back before I get on the runaway train of like, did you start out as a direct, like where you would act what's what was your path to the school of Cal arts? I guess
6 (36m 7s):
I've, I've been a director most of the time. I of course did a little bit of actually got rather late. Like I'm not one of those people who was like really involved in a lot of things when I was really, really little, but I had sort of a formative experience in high school as an audience member. My school was really remarkable. I, I unfortunately should catch up with them and see what they're doing in their theater department. But at the time, like we were a high school that was doing like Ian ESCO and Tom Stoppard and shit. Like, it was pretty cool. I assistant directed rhinoceros my senior year of high school, like Steve Rochester, New York, right in high school, shout out to Steve angle, Mr. Angle.
6 (36m 47s):
He was incredible. He also was the AP lit teacher and ran an incredible AP lit class. Like, oh my God, we, we read and watched just incredible stuff. And so actually his show, but he was one of the other directors there did chorus line and they did like an unedited chorus line in high school, which I also very much admired. And Paul's monologue hit me like eight when I don't know how familiar you are with, with the show. But like, you know, it's a classic Broadway, 1970s. It was sort of groundbreaking at the time because it was all real interviews of people who were all fighting chorus.
6 (37m 27s):
Of course, Paul Paul's monologue when he sort of finally breaks down and tells the story about his, his parents meeting him at the drag show in the back of, I lost it. Like I was a weeping mess. I don't know. And I had not had that particular experience before. And I walked out, I remember going home nerdy, like misfit fucking high school student hadn't found themselves yet and was like, I feel different. I don't know how I don't, I can't quantify it, but I feel like I am moving through the world differently than I was before I had that experience.
6 (38m 8s):
Wow. I want to do that. And that was, that was the moment. And so I started auditioning a little bit, but I always got interested in directing because I, it was the idea of like creating that holistic experience for an audience member, the way it was created for me. And so we also had, I think it was like an official partnership, like you could license with the 24 hour plays in New York. So my high did the 24 hour plays every year. And so I would stay overnight at the fucking school and, and do and direct. And that was sort of my first directing configuration. I was terrible. God. And my first few shows like first few shows at Oberlin were terrible.
6 (38m 55s):
Why, why? Oh my God, too, in my own head, I'm still too in my own head. It's the main thing I'm working on. I'm a very cerebral artist and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I just am seeking balance. That's part of the reason I went to Cal arts and Kellogg's was actually really the right choice for that in a lot of reasons to sort of break down some of my more cerebral and rigid habits. But I just didn't like, I, I was in my own way. It was that classic. Like it, my insecurity, I was second guessing. I was, it was actually Michael Cadman. It was the O'Neil. That was the turning point of that as well. So like I, anyways, I went through high school, got into it, went to Oberlin, was sort of jumping between theater and film got focused in theater because I liked the linearity of the process.
6 (39m 40s):
It just fit my brain better. You can really build the Dominos in order and watch them fall. And I love that from a process standpoint, joy. And so I went to the O'Neill and I was still like, I was overthinking and I was over like complicating and convoluting and Michael Cadman who I'm the final day of the program. I was like, you asshole, you couldn't have said this to me like weeks ago. I'm the final day of the program was like, you're very, very smart stop trying so hard to prove it.
7 (40m 19s):
Ah,
6 (40m 20s):
And that was, that was another game changing moment for me. And I, I started sort of stepping back and letting myself have more fun with it and just found myself sort of like what were my passion projects? What were the things that made me feel the way I did it, chorus line in a way. And my first show back in undergrad was a cabaret. And that was, that was a really huge, huge show for me. And I was very proud of that show and still have, like, I watched the video sometimes I was like, oh God, those transitions fucking suck. But, but yeah, directing, directing has always been sort of my thing because of that idea of like, I get to sort of, I don't know.
6 (41m 4s):
I, I, it's funny because so many people think about directing in this very hierarchical standpoint, right? Like they like the sort of like top-down, they get to sit at the head of the thing and create their vision. I challenged that constantly. And it's funny because people think by challenging that you give up the sort of directorial authority I call bullshit. I I'm interested in what I like to refer to as horizontal hierarchy. I say, I refer to it. I didn't invent the phrase, but like I've sort of taken it and I really love applying it to collaboration. I like the idea that as the director, I'm sort of sitting in the middle, I'm the same plane as everyone else surrounded by all of these brilliant fucking artists.
6 (41m 48s):
And I get to be like, Ooh, yes, it's a bit of that. It's not quite that. Can we bring it over there? I, yes, let's bring that in and pulling all of it towards the middle. And I still get to, by virtue of being in the center of a doll, just make decisions I get to make, be the arbiter of the quote, unquote vision or whatever you want to call it. But it's not that it breaks down the hierarchy in a way I'm not above anyone else that doesn't have to be my idea. It has to be the coolest idea. And so by sitting in the middle of it, I just get to sort of help tie the threads together in a way that feels like the audience experience we're going for. Like, that's my job to God.
4 (42m 30s):
Interesting. So it's so, oh yes. And I'm so curious as to why more directors don't do a horror. Is that, is it just an ego thing? A horizontal.
6 (42m 47s):
Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of like, I'm not even going to call it insecurity. Cause I actually think that doesn't do it justice and I think it's too easily dismissible. I think it's fear. I think there's a lot of fear. I mean, if I'm really Frank, I'm confronting it in certain areas of my program right now.
4 (43m 25s):
Okay. Wait, so you're saying that I just want to reiterate for my own brain because this happens all the time in all organizations across the board. So I'm really, and we're like, we were talking about it yesterday sort of. So, so you, you, you, there is an atmosphere of like, we want to make change, right.
6 (43m 43s):
Faded a stated goal,
4 (43m 46s):
Right? Not an atmosphere. Okay. So a stated goal, which a lot of theaters that I am familiar with and institutions are making these statements right now that the statement on paper or on the web or wherever it is saying, we want to take your feedback and make change. And it usually revolves around the word change. Like we're open to change. And if we're always, if we're honest, nobody's fucking open to change. We fucking,
6 (44m 14s):
And that's what we're talking about. It's the same fear to me. It's the same fear that you find in directing. It's a fear of some, some kind of loss of authority. It's a fear of some kind of loss of control. It's the fear of, I don't know. And it's so funny, like all of the ways you encounter it, because then yeah, you go and you actually say, here's the thing. And like I did this recently and I got yelled at, I got, and again, I've been, I've been working in Chicago theater for a decade before this. I don't give a shit. I was an artistic director, right. Like I was artistic director of Haven, Chicago. I don't like, this is, I don't need your ego. So I think it was actually kind of fun.
6 (44m 56s):
I think whether it's directing, whether it's artistic directors and institutional leadership, whether it's corporate leadership, whether it's, it's all of this, it's, it's, it's a full each year that, that somehow you're going to lose your Control.
4 (45m 10s):
This is so classic in, in terms of, so Gina and I were both therapists for years and look, and obviously we were children of parents. So I would go to my mom and say, this is the exact same thing. I would go to her and say, Hey mom, you're pretty abusive verbally. And she would say, but I'm the best mom. I know how to be. And at least you're not being beaten. Like I was beaten. And I'm like, okay. Yes, true. That all that is true. I, and you're still abusive to me. You're hurting me and sh and whether or not you want to make changes. That's the thing.
4 (45m 50s):
So we, we are literally reenacting parent child relationships in every walk of life. Like this sounds like a conversation a kid might have with their father where the father is like, well, I provide, we we're great.
6 (46m 8s):
And it's not about perfection. Like, it's not about like everyone and just like, we're all human beings. Right? Like I, I never wanted to feel like, and that's sometimes my problem with like, like I'm, I'm as left to center as you can get in a lot of ways, but it's like my one problem with sometimes a lot of left wing stuff is w where it's like, I think there is a purism that sometimes get, gets into it. And it's like, no, like we're all fucking human beings, right? If we believe in the ability to change and restorative justice and all of these things, then we have to actually believe that people can improve and get better. But it's like, there needs to be that honest interest in improving and getting better. There needs to be that genuine interest in it. And it's like, it's one of the things I was really proud of that we built it at Haven in Chicago with
4 (46m 47s):
Such a great theater. Gina Pavan is amazing. We're going to be there in the summer. So maybe we'll check it.
6 (46m 53s):
Ian Martin, like it's so funny. Cause it was such a, it was also a gift to really be able to do a transition process with Ian, you know, cause we really tried to be in, I've been part of some really unintentional transition processes. So like there were a lot of reasons where I really felt like Ian was exactly like, not, it wasn't even about sustaining what Haven had been doing. It was about how do we build and evolve on what Haven had been doing. And so Ian was sort of perfect. And we built the structure that you don't see very often where I, he was, yeah, he was my art, my associate artistic director for half the final season. And then we switched and he became artistic director and I was his associate artistic director for the other half of the season.
6 (47m 36s):
So he could have the responsibility and be in the decision-making position, but have the institutional memory sort of right at hand. And then it's like, and then I step away. So like I bring that up because there was an intentionality that we tried to bring to, like, we're going to be a theater company, let's be a theater company. Like you mentioned the business. Like let's, let's try to be a business, but let's try to be a next generation business.
2 (48m 2s):
And by the way, statements statements are to change as you know, sex is to relationships. Like it's a good start, but like you have to do more
6 (48m 12s):
Exact than just exactly.
4 (48m 13s):
So I guess the question is, what is it for me for me anyway? What is it in you, Josh? That is the kind of person because what is it? And there's a reckoning, obviously that I talk about a lot in, in terms of American theater and theater in general and the movie industry, the reckoning that's coming or in is, is that part of your drive right now to do this? Or it sounds like you've always been this sort of way, but why the fight? What, what, what about the fight?
6 (48m 43s):
Yeah, I think, I think, I think it's got it. That's such an interesting question because it's making me think in a chicken egg way, like is my ethics and my politics, like in here, like I don't know, the weirdest thing just came to mind and I'm going to follow that impulse.
4 (48m 58s):
Great.
6 (48m 59s):
Do it. And forgive me if I get a little bit emotional right now, it's it's my dad. If I'm really being honest, my dad is actually, he's not in the arts, but he's very artistic. He's a cellist. He's a musician. His odd actually, if you go to the Dem theater in Chicago, where Haven is the space that Haven exists in is the Bookspan theater specifically, the Janet Bookspan theater. Janet Bookspan is my aunt, his sister who was a major opera director, vocal coach, teacher, performer, actor assisted how prince back in the day, like holy
4 (49m 40s):
Shit.
6 (49m 41s):
Yeah. So like, and I have it on my mom's side as well, but my mom actually is an artist. She's a painter, but my dad, my dad is a radiation oncologist. He's a cancer physician, but music and art has always been a very big part of his life. His family, my life, he actually sidebar. Cause this is just a fun thing. And I hope this gets included. Cause I love bragging about this. My dad talk about politics and, and art colliding and art ed creative ethics. My dad has always been a big fan of Dr. Seuss's the snitches, this exists. You can go online. It's amazing. I'm so inspired by this. He was part of the Rochester academy of medicine and they have this amazing old building that has a roof.
6 (50m 23s):
That was basically, it's like a mansion that was donated and it's got this that was built for chamber music. And he developed relationships with the Rochester Philharmonic re developed friendships with musicians and created basically a chamber trio to play at the Rochester academy of medicine. And through this met a composer as Spanish composer, living in Berlin, named the Lorenzo. Palomo, who's pretty bright. His music is pretty outstanding and ended up commissioning a piece of music for this trio. And one thing led to another. And we found out that since my dad was young, he had believed that Dr.
6 (51m 6s):
Seuss is the snitches one. It was one of the most impactful, universal and effective lessons about acceptance and like anti-racism that you could find. And it was always his dream to have a piece of music, Allah, Peter, and the Wolf that was composed to be performed in tandem with a narration of Dr. Seuss's the snitches. So you can license this now on music theater international, because he did it. He commissioned Lorenzo to compose a piece of music for Dr. Seuss's the snitches. And we also by hooker by crooked premiered at my Alma mater at Oberlin and has since played around the country actually.
6 (51m 52s):
And I believe internationally. And, and it was all because he wanted to spread the message. It was because he wanted to use art to create an anti-racist piece of art. And the other cool thing is through a connection with his niece who ran the department of cultural affairs in Miami Dade county. She had a connection to John Delancey, who you might know as Q from star Trek, the next generation who did the original narration, the premiere. And so actually it's all on YouTube. You can hear John Delancey doing the speeches. And so like that's an aspect of my dad right there.
6 (52m 33s):
Another aspect was that I'll never forget this story. He actually built, he in Clifton Springs, New York built the cancer center, finger lakes, radiation oncology, because there, you know, there was a large elderly in particular community out there if I recall. And so, you know, as people are getting later in life, you know, biology happens and access to cancer treatment was non-existent except like 45 minutes or more at least minimum drive out of the way, if not hours out of the way. And especially as you're getting older, that becomes less and less sustainable for radiation treatments, for chemo treatments for all of these things.
6 (53m 15s):
So he found funding and worked his ass off as I, in some of my youngest days and built this cancer center from the ground up. And there was a day that I remember very distinctly hearing this story where as we've all been in any doctor's office, they were just running like, you know, three, four hours behind and sorry, I get emotional tug this story. It's so funny because it's like, that's, that's my true north in a way. You know, he, he sent his technicians out. This was back in the day when like Rent-A-Center was still a thing and blockbuster and shit, and like went out to get like sent them out to get like a television, sent them out to get a bunch of movies, sent them out to get like a sandwich platter and just showed up and basically were like, Hey, we're sorry.
6 (54m 11s):
We're we know we're running behind. We just want you to know, we haven't forgotten that you're here. You know? And like when does that happen at a doctor's office? Like when has that ever actually happened? Right. That's my,
2 (54m 27s):
Not for nothing, but my dad sold x-ray equipment. I've met a lot of radiation oncologists, and it's very unusual. Like there tends to be kind of a personality type with people who go into radar and it, it's not that what you're describing. So your dad must be a really remarkable person,
6 (54m 45s):
But yeah, no. And so I think it was a values thing. If we really want to talk about it, it's a values thing. It's, it's, it's a sense of how can we make this better? Like how can we be people first? How can we like again, we talk about Haven, right? One of the things I used to say, and I, and I would try, I tried to work hard to embody was like, oh, sorry, this does plug into our original conversations to bring it back perfectly on topic. One of my first shows I did in Chicago, I did a production of a play called xylophone west by Alex <inaudible> who's becoming a leg. Yeah. Alex is great. He's he's rising really well.
6 (55m 26s):
And like, we, he was actually, when I was the associate director of the summer Oneal program, he was a playwriting student when I was associate director. And that was our first. So it's cool. Just like, as we've sort of grown together, it's been amazing. And we did a reading of it and I, we have very strong opinions, especially because of the O'Neil being sort of a hub of new play development about what new play development is. There's a lot of bad, new play development. There's a lot of bad talk-backs, there's, there's a lot. And really it comes down to the difference between responsive feedback versus prescriptive feedback and how to cultivate that and understanding the difference.
6 (56m 6s):
And these, this artistic director did not understand this. And well, similar to what we're talking about, we were like, Hey, can we structure the talk back this way? Can we, this would really help Alex, Alex would say, this would really help me, like understand my play better. And artistic director's response was, I'll never forget this. Just remember who's the employer and who's the employee.
4 (56m 34s):
Right, right,
6 (56m 35s):
Right,
4 (56m 35s):
Right.
6 (56m 36s):
Case in point to everything we're talking about. And so like, I, it's sort of, when I think about like the sort of challenge to, sorry, I completely lost my train of thought.
4 (56m 49s):
No, no. What we're talking about is no, no, it's fine. It's when we're talking about a lot of things.
6 (56m 53s):
So
4 (56m 54s):
That's okay. What we're talking about is like this whole idea of like that your mentor wasn't your mentor anymore and why people don't want to change and the message versus what is actually happening in.
6 (57m 6s):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to remember why I specifically brought up xylophone west, but it was like this idea of, I don't know. I think about this, this, I owe my, my dad my values. Yeah. Value system. That's right. Thank you. I just needed to hear about, yeah. Yeah. It's a value system thing. It's like, that tells me what that person's value system is. Right. That tells me sort of the culture that they built. And for me as at Haven, sort of taking a note from my dad, right? Hey guys, that you're here. We see that you're here. The way I would phrase that as an artistic director was like, yes, you are our employees. Let's be like, it's not that, that isn't real. Like we are, you were signing a contract to work for us.
6 (57m 49s):
We have expectations based on their contract. You are also a guest in our home. And that is our responsibility. Like as leadership as a company, as an institution, as a director, like you are, you are a guest in our home. This is our home. We are responsible. Especially if we want to talk about mentorship in academia, some of us are paying $50,000 a year,
4 (58m 14s):
Right.
6 (58m 15s):
Be in your home. Like you have all of the control of this space. You can, you can make this, whatever you want it to be, and we're paying you to exist inside of it. And, and it becomes a question for me of how do you take that responsibility? Like what if, whether it's an academic responsibility of like, we are literally paying for the privilege of this, or in a professional standpoint where it's like, it's, it's a little bit in the reverse either way. It's like you are in the position of power. You are in the position where you can like build culture that I use, that I find that word comes up a lot. When I rant about this, which I rant about
4 (58m 53s):
Culture, building culture,
6 (58m 54s):
Building culture, whether it's academic, whether it's professional, like that's the responsibility. And if you don't take that as the responsibility it's so,
4 (59m 3s):
Okay. The, the, the other thing that I was going to say is you had a moment where, so I have these moments where I say to myself, usually not out loud, but you kind of almost said it out loud, but you didn't either. Which is I say, my mama did not come to this country as an and work her ass off for this shit. And your moment was, my dad did not build a fucking radiology oncology center and then get Rent-A-Center furniture and sandwiches for me to be doing this shit like that is that moment. Well, I think, well, that's what I heard there. Everyone has a line and a true north of like, wait, wait, my legacy is not going to be, this is not going to be not saying anything to you.
6 (59m 47s):
And legacy is, is something I think about sometimes, but it's like, it's not even about that per se. It's like, I see what it means to people. Right? And like, if, if we believe in our own bullshit, like, especially as artists, you know, because artists are, are at the forefront of talking a lot of shit about like empathy, right. About community, about humanity, about seeing each other about uplifting each other about making the world a better place. And it's like, well, that's all well and good. But like, are you like how? And it's not even just like, again, like there's so many ways to do it, but I think sometimes we take for granted the small ways of doing it.
6 (1h 0m 29s):
I think sometimes we take for granted the like, what if we just buy everyone dinner? What if we like make a concerted effort to pay people a little bit better? Like, what if we, what if we show our work in that? Like, what if we actually believe in the transparency that we add? Like so much, like we talk about transparency so much in our industry, like, or rather not in our industry, I should say like artists talk about transparency in the world, right? Like we want corporate transparency. We want more governmental transparency. What are some of the least transparent motherfuckers?
2 (1h 1m 4s):
Yeah. I feel like I know why that happens in theater too. It's because there's no money. So everybody goes into it with all of their, like very theoretical and ideological approaches. And when you get very cerebral, very theoretical, you forget about things like, oh yeah, people don't want to do 10 out of twelves anymore because it's, it's, it's too fatiguing. And it actually works against the thing that they're there to do, which is create a new each performance, like being able to offer something fresh each time. So it, it, that is actually an area in which it's helpful to think about theater as a business.
2 (1h 1m 47s):
Because if this, if you were running a seven 11 and you had an employee, you'd have to have a bathroom, like it's, you know, you just think about the pragmatic things more when you're thinking about it as a business.
6 (1h 1m 57s):
Right. And, and it's like, I, and for me, it's like a lot of these things are considered mutually exclusive for some, or they're treated as mutually exclusive, but like, you have to, it's like the business and the sort of like cultural, ethical side, somehow don't mix. And I just don't agree. I don't agree for a lot of reasons. I don't agree in part through the Haven experiment. You know, I it's like, look, we, we're still not making money. And we, we, I want to say we were very privileged to have particular financial support. I don't want to take that for granted that we were not starting in the same place as a lot of other people. And I, and I don't take that for granted. It's not a brag. It's like a, like the bootstrap Smith. Like I want to make sure that it's not like, you know, taken for granted, but it's also like, there's still this idea that people won't show up sometimes like that, like literally I've had other artistic directors talk to me about Haven work in Chicago being like, what are you sure there's an audience here.
6 (1h 2m 53s):
I'm like motherfuckers. We just sent like 15 people away at the door for Isaac Gomez, horror play. But no one else would produce like, like why, what are we it, and those decisions are made because of business, right? Because, because how are we going to sell it to Chris Jones? Because like, how are we going to, and I, I, we found time and time again, that there is an audience for this work that we were able to at times even make money on, like compared to what we, what our show to show budget work. We were able to make money back, like, and we were paying people, you know, it still stipends, you know, not what they're worth. I don't want to pretend we were ever able to pay people what they worth.
6 (1h 3m 35s):
But we were able to pay people, usually double the typical storefront stipend it's like, and, and still keep ourselves on a typical like budget that I was used to for other storefronts. So it's like, it's this question of like, why are these things treated as mutually exclusive on a bigger scale? Look at center theater group right now, an article just got written. I got to see slave play out here, which amazing production also Chicago, shout out. I got to see cause he's under studying. And I got to see him perform that night. Rashad hall. Brilliant, brilliant. And his
2 (1h 4m 11s):
Shot
6 (1h 4m 11s):
Is brilliant. Oh my God, his Phillip just broke my goddamn heart. Oh my God. He was so good. That's a show that is deeply controversial, deeply challenging queer by PAC sexual BDSM oriented, racist, racist, racist, or in terms of its its topic matter like racism in the United States. And historically, and today it's it's and they gave away like 5,000 or more like free and discounted tickets. And they still made money.
2 (1h 4m 48s):
Jeremy DOE he recently just put something up on social about this that he made. He made accessibility like the most important feature of his, you know, this play being produced and it worked and it worked better still made money on this scarcity model, which is, I mean, that's a lot of this just comes from the scarcity model, influencing how everybody feels. So constantly afraid of losing the one little sliver of the pie that they have that, you know, all they can think about is how to make that tiny little sliver. How to divvy it up instead of saying no, how can we get more pie people? We want more pie. We want to just keep getting our tiny little slivers we want, we, we want to add.
2 (1h 5m 28s):
So I'm mindful of the time because I know we're about 50 and we're going to be having to wrap up and I want to hear about it's your last semester and you're working on a project and you're going to have spring break next week. What is your, is it a thesis? Is that, is that,
6 (1h 5m 43s):
That, that was actually last semester. That last semester. Yeah. That's so that's done. I've I've kept myself a little bit busy. I don't know. I, I found myself strangely in spite of the pandemic lab, maybe because of the pandemic last year and now being back in in person and, and all of that. I just, and also I think because of like big was amazing and like my designers were incredible. The students here are unbelievable, but it was also because of some of the things I shared, like an exhausting process, excuse me. And so I sort of took a break and then got into the semester and for some reason just was like, I want to make shit. I want to be involved in making shit.
6 (1h 6m 24s):
I want to, I want to be involved in my own shit. I want to get involved in other people's shit. I just want to make shit. And so I'm like, I just finished up working on a collaboration with a doctoral student in the music school where we created a, I worked with a lighting designer and we worked collaboratively to create a light based sort of design journey, like a sort of light experience in conversation with the music called busking style in real time, as part of his doctoral thesis.
2 (1h 6m 60s):
Wait, you're saying it was busking like that the project was
6 (1h 7m 4s):
The, the style of, of calling the lighting. Was it wasn't like, it was sort of like, Yeah, it was a, yeah. So it was board op up in the booth watching and listening for particular moments. And the music was also highly improv. The reason is because the composition had moments of high improvisation. So there were moments where it was literally like just listening for certain things to shift the lighting responsibly to the music as it was happening. And it was just something I had never done before. So I'm like, let's try this out. And then I'm, I'm drama turking and assistant directing a play that an acting MFA student who's a dear, dear friend has written in his performing it.
6 (1h 7m 48s):
So I can be sort of the outside eye while she's on the inside of it. And then I might have another project cooking for right before graduation. I'm I'm figuring that out right now. And then I've also got things outside. I'm thrilled to say my partner is actually going to be going to USC for film school next year. So she and I are actually working collaboratively on a couple of things with another acting alum from, from Cal arts, actually a which I'll be able to share a little bit more, actually there's some stuff online with little like BTS stuff it's called goon and I'm actually really pumped about it. Yeah. I'm really, it's, it's, it's super fun, super quirky.
6 (1h 8m 30s):
We found a great cinematographer. Right. We shed who's just has an inspired eye. And so, yeah, just, I don't know, just finding myself in that moment of like, I think also out of frustration, maybe with Cal arts at times, like I just want to get with the students here and make some shifts. Let's just make some,
2 (1h 8m 47s):
I think your thing is you want to helm your own ship, always. You want to kind of be in charge of your own destiny and which is a very good, I mean, I see you're making a face about it, but I just, from my prime saying that's a very good quality to have. And it actually leads me to another question I was going to ask you, which is, are you, age-wise about there with your peers in this MFA
6 (1h 9m 9s):
And that's been interesting. Yeah. Older, older. Yeah. I'm in my mid thirties. And that has been a, an interesting difference of experience at times. Yeah.
2 (1h 9m 19s):
Yeah. Well, we've talked to a lot of MFA's who, because they were in their thirties, we're able to see the whole thing about school in a much more objective way that allowed them to get more out of it personally, for that thing, exact thing that you were mentioning earlier, which is I am paying you. So you are going to give me the education that I need as opposed to what you think I need.
6 (1h 9m 42s):
W well, and that's, oh my God. I, that would be a whole other episode because like, actually it's funny, I got wait-listed at a school that I now realize probably wouldn't have been a good fit because I had applied three times and it was, it was somewhere where I had connections that I knew the person who run it, like we were sort of colleagues and she wouldn't let me in. And she finally was like, I think I owe you a coffee. And we went out for coffee and, and she was like, you're so good at producing you say, because it's the reason I gave you that face is because like, yeah, I'm ready to build. I like building, but I also am very tired of building. And that's a conversation I'm actually really interested.
6 (1h 10m 22s):
I S I'm still a director, but I'm actually the big thing I'm looking to pursue right now is development. I love dramaturgy. I love new plays. I love working with writers. And I love working with writers because I am not a writer. I have no ego about that. I have no competitiveness with that. I love the interrogation process. I love inquiry and being like, this is what I'm getting from it. Is this what you're after? Great. If not, what is it? You're after, ah, let's pick that apart. Like
2 (1h 10m 53s):
Human. Yeah.
6 (1h 10m 54s):
I, I love it feeds me. And so like, I'd love to not have to produce my own shit and find a way to just be in development for awhile. But anyway, it's funny, this producing thing has come up because it's like, or like building my own stuff, helped me my own stuff, because she was like, you know, you say, you want to get out of producing. You say, you want a break from this, but I don't think that's really what you want. And it really irked me. I really got pissed off about it because I was like, look, if you don't think I'm the right fit for your program, your prerogative, you're the head of the program. But don't tell me that, you know, better than me, what I want. I know what I want right now. There's actually a part of me going, applying to grad school at this point in my career.
6 (1h 11m 35s):
And I think it's actually the biggest advice I'd give to anyone applying to grad school is like, have a clear idea of what you want. Like have a really clear why, if that makes sense. Like for me, I love Chicago, but I am sometimes again, I say this with love. I'm frustrated by the Chicago style, by the dominance of the quote unquote Chicago style. I feel like especially critically, a lot of things are compared to Steppenwolf 30 years ago. A lot of things are compared to like quintessential 20th century American realism. And I love that shit. I just think there's also more, I think like, like if you look at Chris Jones review of Ms. Black for president and Phillip doc and subsequent response, I feel like that's, that's my issue in a nutshell right there.
6 (1h 12m 19s):
So like, fuck, I'm so sorry. I'm tired.
4 (1h 12m 24s):
That's okay. She, you, you, you didn't get into that school and you were like, don't tell me what I want.
6 (1h 12m 29s):
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Don't like, don't tell me that, you know, better than me, what I want. I, I got frustrated with the Chicago style and I was like, especially seeing Monte, who's a dear friend of mine. Who's also an alum of Cal arts, Monte Cole. He was expanding outside of that style outside of the rigidity of that in ways that were blowing my mind. And yet as a Chicago director, and this is the reason I love Chicago and the reason I'm grateful for a decade there, it, it teaches you collaboration. Like it is a great place for honestly, when you can find that true value of ensemble, the value of ensemble, that's what makes Chicago magical.
6 (1h 13m 10s):
And so like, to be able to bring that collaborative energy to a vision like Cal arts would cultivate, like that was the goal. That was what I wanted to bring my at my like ethical and collaborative value system to Polish avant garde inspired shit. And so like, that was my why. So I was like, don't, don't tell me that, you know, better than me, what I want right now, I have a very clear idea of what I want. And so, yeah, I'm going to pay money to get this thing that I want out of, out of this program. It's just sometimes ashamed to bring it back to the sort of ego and fear thing where, where sometimes you have to be on your own at that. Like, that's been sort of part of the Kellogg experience.
6 (1h 13m 52s):
Like I had some bad experience.
4 (1h 13m 56s):
That's higher ed. I mean, I think that that's, it sucks, but it all, and I say this because every single person we talked to, this is the same thing at any school at any time from 1993 to present, this is an issue that exists in terms of ego, fear, change, reckoning. It's very tricky and it's not ours education, higher ed, especially system is not set up to have the world. I think any, any kind of challenge to that system is, is not, we're not there yet. I don't know if we'll get it.
6 (1h 14m 36s):
It's funny. The ego thing is always interesting to me though, because you brought up a word came up earlier that I forget which of you brought up, but one of you brought up the term legacy. That's always an interesting word. That's always an interesting term in this to me because I'm like, look, as I say, like, it's it's for me, like, am I conscious of it short? Is it why? No. It's because I watched my dad impact people and I want to impact people. It's I was impacted by chorus line in a particular way. And I want to impact people, but I'm like for people who do care about that kind of ego in that particular way, wouldn't legacy matter in this I'm like, it's, it's my, it's a particular curiosity I have.
6 (1h 15m 17s):
Because like, if you would like shift gears for a little bit and decide like, oh, I could make change. That will be your legacy. And isn't that a great legacy. And wouldn't that actually gives you early go. All of it's really go is actually goddamn looking for.
4 (1h 15m 35s):
Yeah. The other thing is there they're like any child, scared child, their fear will not let them until they reach the point where they face their fear and say, I'm scared of being obsolete, not listened to and alone and not being important in some way.
3 (1h 16m 5s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina <inaudible> are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina Culichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.