Carol Cox: You're going to love this episode all around
storytelling for leaders how to craft
narratives that inspire and persuade.
On this episode of the Speaking Your Brand
podcast. More and more women are making an
impact by starting businesses, running for
office and speaking up for what matters.
With my background as a TV political
analyst, entrepreneur and speaker, I
interview and coach purpose driven women to
shape their brands, grow their companies,
and become recognized as influencers in
their field. This is speaking your brand,
your place to learn how to persuasively
communicate your message to your audience.
Hi and welcome to the Speaking Your Brand
podcast. I'm your host, Carol Cox.
We're continuing the brand new series we're
doing all around. Executive speaking last
week we talked about the importance of
executive presence.
Today, we're diving into storytelling for
leaders, especially if you're in a business
or a corporate environment.
And I'm pleased to be joined today by two of
our speaking coaches, Diane Diaz, who's our
lead speaking coach of Speaking Your Brand,
and Joy Spencer, who I'm very fortunate to
have come to us as a speaking and
storytelling coach.
Whether it's for our thought leader, Academy
is for the brave, bold beyond live virtual
summits that we hosted, and it's for the
work that we do with different organizations
to help them create and deliver their TEDx
style talks. Diane, welcome.
Diane Diaz: Hello. Thanks for having me on again.
Carol Cox: And Joy, so nice to have you back as well.
Joy Spencer: Yes, it's great to be back.
Thank you.
Carol Cox: So as I mentioned, we're going to really dive
into storytelling. And I know that the two
of you work so much with our clients on
really digging into their stories.
And for some of our clients, it's really
easy because they come to us and they have a
very clear idea of what story is driving
them to want to create a signature talk, to
want to go out there and speak to audiences
and impact them in a positive way.
And I also know that for some of our
clients, especially the ones who work in a
corporate or business environment, they want
to improve their public speaking.
They want to get out there and speak more,
whether it's for leadership promotions that
they're looking for or really to build their
personal brand. But they're not really sure
how storytelling fits in to their
presentations or why stories even matter, or
why their personal stories even matter.
And so we oftentimes think the stories
aren't appropriate in quote unquote,
professional business environments.
And for sure, we're not talking about
oversharing or TMI type of stories.
We know those are rarely ever appropriate,
no matter what the setting is, depending on
your audience. But today, we're going to
really talk about why storytelling matters
in business settings, how to identify the
best kinds of stories to share, how to tell
a story, and some frameworks and models that
you can use.
So let's go ahead and dive in.
Really. You know, I know again that we have
seen this so much about how much stories
connect this emotionally with the audience.
And so for Joy, can you take us back to
maybe some of the speaking experiences
you've had personally, and how much sharing
stories of your own, how you have felt that
connection with the audience in a different
way than perhaps you did prior to really
incorporating storytelling into the talks
and presentations that you gave?
Joy Spencer: I think I really got this definitely from
working with with you as I was preparing my
talk, I think when we first started working
together, and our conversation really helped
me dig into that.
The Mrs. Jackson story, which I've been
using ever since, which was a story that I
had completely forgotten about.
But what I found with that story, which is a
which is an early childhood story that
explains how I view scripts and scripting
and sort of inviting people to move away
from the script. Every time I share that
story, it really resonates with people who
who listen and really connects them to the
message that I'm sharing.
I think in a deeper way than when I'm just
sort of like trying to talk to them about
work in general. So I've seen the power of
diving in and finding a personal story that
connects you to why you do what you do, and
sharing that with others.
It just makes everything pop.
It makes it spark. And that word connection
cannot be underemphasized.
Carol Cox: Well, now, Joy, I know that story of Miss
Jackson. Can you tell us a quick version of
that story? Yes.
Joy Spencer: So imagine, you know, being in the third
grade or the fourth grade and it's play
announcement day, and you like run down the
grassy hill and there's a bulletin board and
there's all the names that are listed with
all the different characters.
And your name is there.
And my name was, you know, was on the board.
But our plays were completely different from
what people usually experienced.
So we would usually, you know, we had Snow
White and the eight dwarves, not just the
seven dwarves or, you know, Cinderella.
And the Prince was Michael Jackson, and
there was a whole hot dancing hot dog scene,
a zombie scene.
And what in the world was going on?
Right. That was our teacher, Mrs.
Jackson, who, like, put on these really fun
and wild plays. But the real unique thing
about these plays was that she never gave us
a script for them.
She would share with us what our characters
were. She gave us the intro, like generally
this was. What needed to happen at the start
of the scene and the end of the scene, and
then she would say, go!
And we would just start adlibbing and
practicing, and she would write down our
script. So we essentially created our own
script, created and developed our own
characters, and it was a perfect blend of
structure and fluidity to allow for
creativity. And so I share that story
because it really until and this is the
other powerful thing about storytelling, it
gives you your self back.
Before I had gone and had the conversation
to to think through that story, I'd
forgotten how important that experience was
and formative it was in who I am, how I show
up and work and in life.
So the process, it wasn't just a product of
coming out with this story that I could put
put into the talk.
The process of going back and finding and
unearthing this story gave me a part of
myself back and a sense of like, oh, this is
who I am, and this is why I am who I am.
So another shameless plug for why
storytelling is so important.
It's not just a product, but what the
process can do for you as well.
Carol Cox: And hear the difference between the first
explanation of storytelling.
And sure, you heard you heard Mrs.
Jackson. So she had a name.
You heard something about plays, but an
unscripted. But that was pretty much it.
And then you got the second version and
you're like, oh, now I can actually picture
all the kids in the hallway.
And then being excited about what this play
is going to be and creating their own
characters. And then now I feel like I know
you joy so much more as a person.
So then, you know, for those of you
listening, think about for yourself, for
your in these business environments, you may
think, well, a story from when I was in
third grade. What would that have to do with
giving a presentation and a business or an
academic context?
But it makes you relatable and it makes you
memorable. Now, Diane, how about you?
Do you have, you know, a time that you've
given a talk where a story was really
central? And what what was that like?
Diane Diaz: Yes, actually, Earl.
And well, I'm going to say when I was
working with you, Carol, on my talk so early
on before I was with speaking of brand and I
had my own business, the brand teacher, I
was giving a talk about personal branding,
and I was trying to instill this idea of
sort of having the power to know that you
can do certain things in your career.
Right. But it starts with developing your
own personal brand, and how you act is how
you are. Right.
And so I would use the story of how I became
a triathlete, going from not knowing how to
swim at the age of 37, learning how to swim
at the age of 37, almost drowning every time
I would swim, getting past that fear of the
open water to finally doing the full Ironman
distance, and sort of that idea of having to
act like a triathlete in order to be a
triathlete. And so the audience not only
obviously got that message, but the story,
even if they never experienced that.
I started out as not a triathlete, so
everybody can identify with that, wanting to
do something challenging, not understanding
how to do it, not knowing the skills needed,
being bad at it.
Everyone can identify with that and then how
you have to push through. And so telling
that story and it wasn't about the
triathlon, it was about, you know, acting as
if so that you could then do the thing.
That message really came through because of
the story that I was able to use to
illustrate that point.
And so, so many people, they didn't
necessarily identify with the fact of being
a triathlete unless they were.
But they identified with that whole message.
And in fact, I gave I used that story in a
talk that I gave as a keynote talk to, I
think about 600 women at the Orlando Women's
Conference. And interestingly, after I was
done, when I was going back to the table, I
one woman came up to me after the whole sort
of, uh, portion of that, that session was
over. She came up to me and said how much
that inspired her because she had done a
short distance triathlon before, and she
remembered how powerful that made her feel.
And then she now she wanted to do that
again. So, you know, you never know how your
story might impact someone.
Carol Cox: And that's another excellent example of
number one, uh, sharing a story so that
people can get to know you better.
You're inspiring them.
You're perhaps, you know, sharing them with
something that is a not necessarily complex
idea, but that idea, if you try to explain
it without a story or without a metaphor,
what kind of just people would just kind of
go over people's heads? So they really want
to understand the how it was relevant to
them, but then also it drives action and
change. And this is what we talked about on
last week's episode about executive presence
and getting buy in from your audience.
And I feel like sharing a personal story
helps your audience to know that they're not
alone, that you too, have experienced
something or have been in their shoes, or
have have done something that maybe they
want to do. And so they're more likely than
to put themselves into their own story.
Why that may be slightly different than your
story. Like Diane, I maybe never will do a
triathlon, but is there something that I do
want to do that I can take inspiration from
hearing your story and then Joy saying with
you about this idea of of having things be
unscripted again. It's like it's a little
vague and amorphous just hearing that, but
then hearing the story, the example of the
play, you're like, oh, now I get it.
Now I understand how maybe I can incorporate
this idea of being unscripted in the power
of that into the work that I'm doing.
All right. So then let's talk about some a
particular model called public narrative.
And I know, Joy, you know this really well
because you've taken courses on it and
you've really dove have digged into it over
the years. And I like public narrative as
well. A lot of politicians use it.
Barack Obama very famously used it.
Michelle Obama also used it.
Their speechwriters use it because it's very
effective again, at persuasion and getting
buy in from your audience and encouraging
them to take action. But it could also be
used very much in a business environment.
And I think that's where it originated from.
Joy. So can you tell us about the public
narrative model, what it is and why it's so
helpful?
Joy Spencer: Yeah, so public narrative was developed by
Marshall Ganz, who's a lecturer, professor,
and Harvard Kennedy School.
And it really came out of his out of his
work in organizing.
And so that's that's sort of the connection
with, um, the, the Democratic Party and, and
Obama camp, etc., very instrumental in
Obama, you know, coming to coming, um,
becoming president because he essentially
used that model. And so the the powerful
thing about public narrative is that it
builds on this. It builds on connection,
right? Which if you want to as a leader or
anyone, a movement builder or an organizer,
if you want to bring people to action, you
have to have influence with them, and you
can't have influence without connection.
So public narrative is powerful with that
connection, influence, action, sort of
connection, um, sort of continuum.
And so it has three parts.
There's the story of self, the story of us
and the story of now.
And what you're doing in each of these is
like in the story of self.
You're creating that sense of connection
between you and the you, the person who is
sort of sharing and bringing the message,
you and your audience, because people have
to feel connected to you, to even listen to
you or be or want to take the action you're
going to invite them to.
But that's not just it and the story of us.
You're doing something really powerful.
You're you're creating a sense of otherness
in the room. You're creating a sense that we
who are in the room, who have come to listen
to this person, are not just these disparate
groups of people, but we have shared
experiences and we have shared values.
And that shared experience and shared values
means that there's power and there's
resource in our room for us to take action
together, which is what we need in the story
of now, in the story of now, that's where
we're we're being the speaker is sharing
what the strategy is.
What is our current urgent moment, what is it
that we need to do?
And we've already learned from the story of
us that we have what it takes.
And so here they share, like, this is what
we can do and what we need to do next.
And this is where you'll have your call to
action. So it's a very powerful model.
It's a powerful leadership practice model
that incorporates storytelling in to help
leaders. And it's the leader definition is
very broad. It's not just leader is titled
leaders, but it's anyone who's willing to
accept responsibility for enabling others to
achieve purpose in the face of uncertainty.
That's the definition of leadership in the
public narrative model. So if that's you, if
that's what you want to do, this is a model
that's very useful and powerful for you to
help bring your movement, your team and
whoever, from a sense of disconnection to
connection, build that influence so they can
move on and and take the action that you
want them to take at the end of the day.
And it's and I love it.
It's my absolute favorite model.
I use it all the time in my storytelling,
and I introduce it to leaders a lot and help
leaders use it when they're developing
talks, especially because it's a great way
to combine story moments with building a
broader narrative. It's just it's, um, check
it out. If you've not checked it out, it's I
can't say you know enough about it.
Carol Cox: And we'll I'll include a link in the show
notes to some, some articles about public
narrative, the model. And also know Joy.
We did a podcast episode back a couple years
ago where we talked much more about that.
So I'll include a link in the show notes for
that as well. And the other thing that
public narrative is great for is Ted talks
and Ted style talks.
We have been fortunate enough to work with
the University of California, DC center,
which is hosted in Washington, DC.
The executive director is Tanya Gillespie.
She's a graduate of our Thought Leader
Academy, and so we have worked with her and
University of California professors, both
last year and this year, to help them create
their ten minute Ted talks to deliver about
their academic research.
And like all good academics, they love their
research. They love the details.
They love getting into the nitty gritty of
of what they're doing. And for good reason,
because they're usually writing whole,
entire books.
Just about one.
Particular area of the research.
But to Tanya's credit and the University of
California, D.C. center, they want this
research to have a broader impact on the
general population and on policy making.
So that's why they're having these
professors deliver these talks.
And so they brought us in to help them to
craft these talks.
And we very much used this public narrative
model of story of self, story of us, and
story of now to help them to frame how
they're how they're presenting their
research. So, Diane, as you've been working
with these professors on their talks, what
have you noticed about their storytelling
and maybe their the surprise that they've
had when they've worked with us and did our
done our workshops about the importance of
storytelling?
Diane Diaz: What I have found with the groups that we've
worked with and the individual clients that
I've worked with on that, um, being that
they're academic and they often are a little
bit resistant at first to tell stories
specifically to tell their own story and why
they're connected to the message.
And they don't.
They don't necessarily at first see or
understand the importance of their own story
in the talk that they're going to give,
like, why? Why would I tell them about me?
This isn't about me, right?
It's about my research.
It's about what I found. It's about what
I've learned. I want to share that with
them. And sometimes there's a story in that,
but someone else's story.
And so they they really have been at first a
little bit resistant.
But once we can get them on board with
incorporating their own story, and then when
we've done like the practice sessions within
our our group calls, and then they see when
someone else delivers that and includes
their own personal story within it, and they
can see the the shift of how powerful the
message becomes.
I think that's where they buy in to how
important it is for their story to be part
of that talk, right.
And why? Why the topic is so powerful for
them. And sometimes it feels like it hasn't
been some earth shattering reason, but the
why they're connected to this message and
why they're connected to this general, you
know, through line and main message that
they want to convey that matters.
So once they're able to see another of the
speakers do that, I think that's where
they're like, oh, okay.
Yes, I get it. Because now they feel the
power of that message on them.
And so now they want to do the same thing.
So that's sort of what I've noticed kind of
across the board with those speakers.
Carol Cox: And JosÃ©, what about you?
And you've actually been able to attend it
live since you are in the DC area.
So you got to see them last year.
And this year we just got to watch them on
the live stream. So from working with them
and then seeing them deliver live, what has
been the impact on helping them understand
the importance of their personal stories?
Joy Spencer: I agree with Diane.
I think there's that resistance because
people just don't get it and they don't
understand why they there.
And I think what it is, is that they often
miss that they are connecting to their
research through their own personal story,
and so they sort of forget that you need to
articulate that, because really, nobody
connects to ideas or data directly.
We all connect to all of these things
through people, people who are introducing
it to us through the way that they're
telling a story or the way they're telling
someone else's story.
And so it's not a vanity project project to
introduce storytelling, because that's
literally how everybody understands
everything. Advertising is that way.
Everything is about personal story and
personal connection. So, so once our the
people who we work with suddenly realize
that, oh, I'm connected to this research
through my personal story.
And the only way that people who I want to
invite into action with me, who I want them
to also think, feel and do something, um,
the way that I do, and I'm passionate about
it. The only way that they can get connected
is not if I share this sterile, sort of
like, intellectual version of this thing,
but I need to bring them into a personal
connection the same way that I have one.
That's how they can be as invested in this as
I am. Once they realize that the
storytelling and their personal connection
to it is the route to get to where they want
to get there, they're on board, but it takes
a little bit for them to get that.
Aha! Oh, this is how I can you know, these
people aren't trying to derail me.
Right. Because I'm focused on my research.
I've got stuff to do. I'm trying to get to
the research. They're not trying to derail
me with this storytelling thing.
They're actually helping me get to and
achieve that goal.
And, and, and I hope that people, you know,
leaders from all walks of life finally get
that, that storytelling is not a detour.
It's not a distraction.
It's the route to get to the action and the
change and the transformation that you want
to have. So it's time to get on board.
Carol Cox: Yes, you're right, it's not a derailment.
It's not a distraction. It really is the
core. And also what I find is that when the
speaker shares their story, they tend to be
much more conversational in their delivery,
which is what we encourage them to do.
And I know especially for these ten minute
talks, they want to write it all out and
then they want to memorize every word.
And of course, we tell them and we encourage
them that it's not really a good idea to
memorize. It's going to feel stilted, it's
not going to feel natural, and it's
definitely not going to feel conversational,
which is another benefit.
Whether you're delivering a textile talk or
a keynote or you're presenting in front of
executives, whatever it happens to be, I
feel like we know our stories, so it almost
lets us off the hook with having to write
them out word for word, because we just tell
them, like, just tell your story to us.
I promise you, you know your own story.
You don't need to write it out.
And Diane, I know you were in one of the
calls where we had them practicing their
delivery. And remember, there was one who
was reading the script and we told them,
okay, just stop, stop, stop. Like, don't
just put your script away, put that browser
tab away. Just tell us your story and what a
difference it made.
Diane Diaz: It made a huge difference.
And not only was he more conversational once
he did that, but he lit up when he told the
story, which then makes me as.
The audience care more about what he's
saying, because I see how connected he is to
what he's saying.
And his whole demeanor, his whole just
physical presence changed.
His facial expressions changed.
He loosened up.
He his eyes lit up.
Everything about him was so visibly, and
also his speech was so connected to that
story he was telling about where he grew up
and his father.
He was so connected to it that I then felt
compelled to really listen and pay
attention. I wanted to know more.
I wanted to hear the message he was sharing.
So it changes everything about about your
talk, not just the contents of it, but also
the delivery of it that then brings the
audience in more.
Carol Cox: Oh, that's such a good point about yes, you
can, you can like the shift in the body
language, the facial expressions, the
energy. You really do notice that now, Joy.
So, you know, we talked about academics and
their textile talks and all that.
But I know you also work with executives and
people who work within companies who are
whether they're presenting internally or
presenting externally.
And how has this idea of storytelling
impacted them?
Joy Spencer: It's been really powerful.
And I think that what we talked, what you
shared earlier about people being concerned
about what to share and what's appropriate
in the work setting, it's about sharing
personal stories, not private stories.
And so the the they often sort of go through
the struggle and a challenge like, oh, can I
share that? Do I share that?
So what I often create is a space where we
can sort of do what I call kitchen syncing.
Like we just dump everything we just share.
It's like, this is a safe space.
You don't have to share any story that you
share with me. It's just to sort of like,
get in the practice and get it out.
And then they sort of see, oh, that they
have a choice, that they can pick what they
what they choose to share, you know.
And so it's like they're not forced to, you
know, pick a particular type of story and
that personal stories, you know, can be
about learning how to ride a bike or
learning how to swim or about, you know,
your first day of school.
And these are powerful and compelling
stories, but they're not like your deepest,
darkest secret, which nobody really wants to
hear anyway, you know?
And so and there's so much power and fodder
in them. So I really enjoy helping them to
come through the process of becoming more
comfortable with.
I'm a leader, but I can and I should share
these personal stories, which is going to
help my team feel more connected to me, and
it's going to help me really help support
them through these changes and these
challenges that we have and, and that we're,
we're going through. So so those are really
fun and exciting moments.
And what I've really seen is storytelling
helped to build influence for these leaders.
So I have a leader who I worked with
recently, who she recently switched into a
new executive position to a new team that
she was not familiar with and who was not
really familiar with her.
And years prior, we'd worked on this on as
part of a storytelling video series that I
was heading up and helping leaders tell
their stories. And these stories went, you
know, would go out enterprise wide, she
said. People were coming up to me and they
were like, oh, I saw your story, you know, a
couple of years ago. And I remember and it
was powerful and it was impactful.
And so she was walking into a room where she
didn't know people, but she already had some
some connection and influence and that
connection and influence. And she said, this
all came through the story that I worked on.
You worked on with you.
That was it. They know nothing else about me
except that they've heard and they've
received this story. And so look at that
powerful way to begin to build influence and
to pave the way of possibility for you and a
team before you even get, you know, into the
door, um, get through the door.
So I've seen it do some powerful thing for
leaders that building those strong
connections, building that influence, and
helping them to really help their teams
navigate through a lot of changes and
challenges.
Carol Cox: It really does help to build trust and
credibility in a fast way.
And especially again, I love your
distinction between personal versus private
stories. And I still feel like there's a
should be at least some vulnerability within
the personal stories, because I feel like
especially as a leader, if you're not
willing to be vulnerable and of course, in
an appropriate manner, but then your team is
not going to feel that sense of trust and
connection with you and then being willing
to be vulnerable with you.
Yeah, I.
Joy Spencer: Often tell leaders, nobody wants to hear your
what I call triumphal stories.
The stories that are like everything was
great, and then it got better, and then it's
even better. And I'm awesome and like, you
know, you should be awesome like me.
Nobody cares about about those stories.
But yeah, but to your point, a vulnerable
story. It doesn't, you know, it's not
necessarily your your darkest moment.
Although I have had leaders share very
personal stories of like tough diagnoses in
their, in their, in their families and all
of those things and and being and when you
share that piece, that part of your
vulnerability of you going through a
difficulty coming out through the other end,
whether it's you and family or difficulty at
work, you remind.
Find yourself and you remind your team that
you're a human being.
And that's the most important piece that
gets lost in corporate work.
You walk through the doors and everybody
forgets that they're a human being.
For some reason, the conversational talk
goes away, the natural ebb and flow of
storytelling goes away.
And so really what storytelling does is it
gives you back your humanity.
It gives you back that ability to connect in
the normal, natural way that you do.
And that's what teams are hungry for and
really want to see from their leaders.
Like, do you understand what I'm going
through? Are you a human being like I am?
And if you are, I can trust you.
I can trust what you're what you're saying,
and I can trust you through this dark, you
know, path that we might need to walk
through these turbulent times of constant
change. Your teams are not going to follow
you. They're not going to trust you.
If they don't know you, they won't know you.
If they don't see you being human.
And they can't see that. If you haven't
shared a vulnerable story, there's just no
way around it.
Carol Cox: Yes, so. Well said.
Thank you, Joy, for that. Now, Diane, I
mentioned on last week's episode that we had
recently done a speaking workshop from some
for some women here in the Orlando area who
are running for office, and it was so fun to
work with them on their speaking, but also
on their storytelling.
And can you tell us a little bit about what
it was like when.
So we had them deliver their stump speech to
us after we had done a bunch of exercises
with them, deliver their stump speech they
had been doing. And then we offered some
feedback about leading with story.
So either switching some some the order up
of what they were doing or really going into
more detail on their story.
So what what did you sense while while we
were doing that?
Diane Diaz: Well, it's a little bit like the corporate
space in that I think politics and sort of
running for office, doing some speeches can
become very sterile because it's about, you
know, the facts and what we can do for you
and what what are we going to make happen,
you know, and just like in a corporate
environment becomes very sterile and just
about business.
It also running for office can feel that
way. And I think, you know, probably most
people delivering speeches in the political
arena are probably going to be filled with
facts and information and what the changes
are that we want to happen.
But it similarly to our, um, our academics
who, when they change to more story based,
lit up.
We had the women first just deliver the
stump speech and it was good information.
And yet they were very passionate.
And obviously they're very well spoken and,
you know, very accomplished women.
So that all came through.
But what did not come through was why I
should care about you in particular, being
the person that I'm going to vote for.
You know why? Why does this why does running
for office matter to you as the candidate?
Not from what you can do once you're in
office. But why does it personally matter to
you? And you know, I we've all heard
political speeches and they they almost all
follow some sort of pattern of, you know,
making promises and like, you know, we've
got to make change and whatever the things
are that the formulaic things that they say,
that's great. But then when we had them
retell their stump speech.
But now start with your story, whatever that
story is, but start with the story and just
speak. Forget about what you've written
down. Forget about what you normally say.
Forget about about covering all the 15
points that you want to cover. Forget about
all that. Just tell your story and why
you're here. Speaking to this audience
today. So we had each women do that, and it
was similar to the academics where they're
first of all, their whole body language
changed. They became much more relaxed, not
worried about hitting 15 different points.
Right. They really just spoke from the
heart. And frankly, standing there as a
woman, hearing another woman just tell her
personal story of why she's running for
office, to me, mattered so much because I
want to know why you care so much about this
topic or this this issue that's compelled
you to run for office. I want to know that
because because I want to know you're
committed to it in some way.
Right? So it tells me that it's beyond just
like, oh, I'm going to be well, not that
they're running to be well known or
anything, because, I mean, that would be
very hard to really make that the reason.
But but he told me this more than just, you
know, that you can accomplish these 15
different things, but you really have a
personal stake in why you've chosen to run
for this particular office at this
particular time. And when each of the women
did that, their body language changed, their
facial expressions changed the emotion that
they exuded.
Which didn't happen with listing the 15
points, but the emotion came through it.
At each one of them had different reasons.
They were, I think, there well, two of them
were moms. I'm not a mom, but it still
resonated with me because they're women
doing something for something that they care
about. So that resonated with me, right?
And so each of them completely change their
demeanor. And frankly, I'd rather hear that
type of a speech and I'd be more compelled
to vote for someone than someone who lists
15 different things they're going to do for
me because I feel like, well, I don't know.
The other person said the same thing, like,
so why you over them?
But once you tell me that reason, that
compelling reason, your story, your personal
story, and I see how connected you are to
your story and why it matters to you and
that you feel compelled to make a change.
Now you've got me right.
And so their whole just their they just were
more relaxed.
Like everything about their delivery changed
everything.
Carol Cox: And I felt more emotionally connected to
them. Not only did I feel the emotion from
them, but I felt more emotionally connected.
And what do we remember out of that entire
2.5 hours that we spent with them?
We remember their stories.
Yes, that is what sticks with us.
And that's like the bigger why of what
they're doing, like you said, versus the
here's this specific policy proposals.
Now they still. Need to mention the policy
proposal, but that comes after you've earned
the trust and had that authentic connection
with the audience.
Diane Diaz: Yes, because I'm not going to remember the 15
different things Susie Smith said about why
she's running right. I'm going to remember
that Susie Smith has a child with special
needs in school, for example, and just
couldn't get those needs met and how much
that impacted their families. So she's
running to make a change, right.
That I'm going to remember.
Carol Cox: Yes. All right.
So let's talk about some frameworks that you
all can use for telling your story.
So specific thing. So first we're going to
talk about the challenge choice outcome way
to tell a story. And then we're going to dig
into the ingredients to use to tell a story
versus an anecdote.
Because there is a difference.
We want to make sure that is for your key
story. You're actually using these
storytelling ingredients.
So Joy, I'm going to, uh, push it over to
you to talk about us, about challenge,
choice and outcome and why that's really
helpful for identifying the kinds of stories
to share and then how to set them up.
Joy Spencer: Well, it sort of shows you whether you have a
story or not. Right.
So challenge choice outcome comes also comes
out of public narrative. And it's really a
powerful way to think about.
Is there a character in your story and does
this character.
Is this character faced with a particular
challenge like what's what's the obstacle?
They want something. What is it that they're
trying to get to?
And what does the what choice are they
making in this story? And the powerful thing
about choice is, and why choice is so
important, is that choice reveals values
without having to state them.
And understanding a person's values or the
character's values is what is also going to
build that deeper sense of connection.
And then you don't want to leave people high
and dry, right? These are not stories that
you tell where it's like cliffhanger or it's
like, no, don't do that.
So you always have to give us a very clear
sense of what the outcome is.
And if you're if you're thinking about a
story moment that you're trying to tell, you
want to make sure that those elements are
there, especially leaders, leadership
stories like is there, is there.
It's great for leaders specifically because
challenge stories with challenge are always
going to help you to tell more vulnerable
stories, which is what we talked about
earlier, really needing to get to that.
So what was the challenge?
What was the challenge that I was faced
faced in? What's the moment that I can share
that had that? What choice did I make so
that people can get to know me a little bit
better and know my values without me having
to say, I am courageous.
You just, you know, demonstrate it, show it
through the story. And and then and then
what happened. And then you can build build
from there, like what the lessons are and
all the things that you want to do.
But without those elements, really, you
can't really honestly say that you have a
story. So it's a it's there great postmarks
um or sorry.
No, they're great signposts to help you
know, that you are actually telling a story.
And if anything is missing, to go back and
make sure that you're, um, pulling those
threads and making sure that you're
articulating them. So I that's that's a
really good one. It's just a basic like, am
I telling a story or not?
Do you have challenge, choice and outcome?
Carol Cox: And I think that's so important.
Joy, because sometimes we may think of a
story of, you know, an experience we've had
and we know that it was challenging.
It was a difficult time, but we don't really
think about the choices necessarily we made.
We just know that something happened, but we
don't think about the alternatives.
So I remember back this was before our first
summit in 2020, October 2020, and I was
working with both of you, you and, uh, and
Diane to create my own summit speech.
Right. Because I was going to do, I think,
the opening speech and it was about my time
in politics. And, you know, how everything
was great until it wasn't.
And then I remember Joy, you're like, okay,
well, what was the moment like?
What was the moment where you realized,
like, okay, you had to make a decision?
Like you were faced with this challenge.
You know, these people who were your
supporters and they started bullying you and
how you felt. And I was like, oh, yeah, I
always my, the, my version of the story was
right. So I had this experience in politics,
you know, I it was all great until it
wasn't. And then I just kind of went away.
But then Joy's like, no, no, no, but what
was the choice you made. Oh I'm like, oh,
now I see the choice was that I chose to
walk away. Instead of standing up to fight
back. And like I said in my summit speech,
that wasn't the empowered woman that I
wanted to be or that I would like to be seen
as right. It's a vulnerable story to share.
I wish I had made a different choice, but I
realize that I that was the choice I made
because I didn't have another support system
to help me through that.
They were my support system, the ones who
had turned against me.
And then I later realized that that's why I
started speaking your brand and
subconsciously, to provide women with the
support system when they're out there using
their voice. So. So for those of you
listening, think about you may have a
challenging situation, but then what was
that choice and what did it reveal to you,
whether it was the good part or maybe the
not so good part? But then what did you do
with it afterwards?
Joy Spencer: I love that because that's a classic example
of a story giving you your power back, just
going in and getting deep and beginning to
understand what your choices were.
And that's what our stories can do for us,
the practice of being in storytelling.
It's not just what we can do for others and
how we can connect to others, but really how
we can reconnect to ourselves and to our the
powerful parts of ourselves that are going
to, you know, help shape and make a
difference for others.
So I'm glad that you I'm glad that you got
that piece, got that piece out from that
conversation.
Carol Cox: It's very liberating.
I we talk, you know, we work with women all
the time. And our thought leader academy
and, you know, and understandably, some of
them are hesitant to share those stories.
And I say to them, you know, as appropriate,
the story you're most reluctant to share is
probably the one that you should share, not
just for the benefit of your audience, but
really for your own benefit, because they
will feel very liberating to to share that.
All right. So Diane let's talk about our
ideal storytelling ingredients.
So we have this model of public narrative
story of self story of us.
Story of now kind of like the big, you know,
building blocks of of your talk or your
presentation we talked about for a
particular story, the challenge, choice and
outcome. But then we also want to make sure
we're telling the story in a way that's
captivating to our audience.
So let's run through the ideal storytelling
ingredients, and then we can talk about how,
especially with those candidates that we
were working with, how having them use these
ingredients really made their stories come
to life.
Diane Diaz: Yes. So I love these ingredients because I
think it gives you also almost like a
recipe, right? The ideal story ingredients.
It's like a recipe to make sure that you
have these elements in your story, so that
you can make sure that your story is as
impactful as possible, and so specifically
so the ideal story ingredients ideal being
the acronym because we love acronyms.
Right. So imagery dialogue, emotion action
and lesson. And it kind of still follows
that challenge choice and outcome.
Right. So it still works within that
framework, but specifically related to our
academics that we were working with on their
talks. They I think they did a really good
job of incorporating these elements into
their talks. And their talks were very
short. So, you know, it has to be really
tight, right? But especially if you're
giving, you know, maybe you're giving a 45,
35, 45 minute talk.
You can really wrap these in.
So, so with imagery, for example, the
gentleman we were talking about, who we
asked him to just, you know, speak from the
heart and not read his script imagery was
sort of setting us in the place of where his
story was taking place. Where was he talking
about his father and the things that he
instilled in him, where he grew up, I think
in Kenya was where he grew up.
So really placing us there in that moment and
then dialogue. So I remember in when we were
giving the feedback, we were telling him,
you know, maybe you could say.
And so then, then my father said to me and
then I said to him, right.
So really instead of just relaying so she
said to me this like, oh.
And then she said, Susan, why don't you do
this? And then I said, right, actually do
the dialogue. Don't just relay what the
conversation was.
And then for emotion, incorporate how you
felt in that moment.
Were you moved by the situation?
So how did he feel knowing that what was
going on in his home country, or how that
relates to what's going on in this country?
So they were doing talks on reparations.
How did that make him feel?
How did he feel growing up, you know, as a
child, what were the emotions involved in
that? And then the actions of what actually
took place, what actions happened?
What did you do? What did they do?
What you know what what happened?
And then the lesson. So what is the lesson?
Not only that, he might have learned from
having grown up in Kenya and then coming
here and all the research he's done on
reparations, but also, what is the greater
lesson that the audience can take away from
what you're sharing with them?
So then, so it sounds almost like, well, how
am I going to wrap all those ingredients
into a ten minute talk? But it doesn't have
to be so long and drawn out and some of
these kind of wrap into one another.
So, you know, imagery and dialogue can work
together, right? So you can make them work
together so that you can incorporate all of
them into the talk, but especially in a ten
minute talk, having painting that picture so
that the audience feels like they're part of
the story and that they're in the scene and
that they they are feeling the emotion too.
That is so important, especially in that ten
minute talk, to make sure that the audience
feels moved, to take the action that you're
asking them to take. And in that case,
they're talking about reparations and caring
about supporting these efforts towards
reparations. She got to make them feel
something. So this this ideal story
ingredients helps the audience, brings them
into that message, then makes them feel that
too. Then they want to take action as well.
They've got the lesson. They know they can
make a change. And so now you've you've got
them.
Carol Cox: And this is the power of these ideal
storytelling ingredients, is that you want
to drop into one specific moment in time or
one day, because I think this is where
stories end up as anecdotes instead of as
stories, because we kind of like paint this
broad brush. We're like, oh, you know, I was
at this job one time that, you know, I
didn't really like. And it was because of
this, you know, these things were going on.
But it's like, well, okay, but you're not
really telling me, much like, tell me about
a specific day like you were at, you know,
you were in your cubicle and then someone
came over and they said this to you or, and,
you know, and then you realize that, you
know, you wanted to go start your own
business instead, whatever the story was
like, when Joy at the beginning of this
episode talked about Mrs.
Jackson, the, you know, the kind of the
overview at the beginning, but then talking
to us about having, you know, the play
announcement on on the bulletin board and
the kids in the hallway.
Now, that was one specific day, one moment
in time. And the same thing with those women
running for office. When we asked them,
okay, take us to one moment.
Take us to the day where this issue became
central to your life.
And then they knew that moment right away,
like they didn't have to dig for it.
They knew what that was.
And then they just told us about that
morning, and that's where we felt that
emotional connection to them was from that
one specific moment in time.
Diane Diaz: Yes. And I think when Joy was giving her
example, she when she said, running down the
green hills, I visualized the green.
You literally visualize it because it's so
it is so specific and colorful.
And now I'm in it.
Carol Cox: Yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah. Okay, Joy, what else would you like to
add to our our conversation so far?
Joy Spencer: Yeah, I want to talk about using stories as
metaphors, because leaders I find often
struggle with finding the right story to
tell. So they often are.
They think about, oh, they think about the
situation. And then they're like, well, hmm,
how do I find a story for this?
And I tend to do it the other way around.
Your stories are so rich with lessons, with
themes, with so much that you don't know
what's in them. So.
A building, a story bank by just going
through and finding all these different
story moments that you've had in your life,
like going as early as you can and coming up
to as present as you can.
You know, remembering the first time your
mom brought home a puppy, you know, again,
you know, the bike riding or when you first
met your best friend at school, all these
different things. Just think about these
different moments. Right. And it it is about
those moments. And then ask, what can I
learn from this or, or what does what else
does this make me think of?
You know, learning how to ride a bike, you
know, is like learning new technology at the
office. Or, you know, getting a puppy for
the first time is like, I don't know, what
is it like?
Carol Cox: Like love. Just like it's like love, right?
Joy Spencer: You're right. It's like so, so just thinking
about what is the story a metaphor for.
And then that can help you find so many rich
contexts in which you can use these stories
that you use typically think, oh, that
doesn't match or, or where would I use this
story? And it's like, you can bring so many
personal story moments.
And by finding what the underlying theme is
or the lesson that you can learn from them
and really help you in a work setting.
So I have an example. There was a leader who
I was working with, who she was.
We were working on developing her story for
a diversity and Inclusion and belonging
video series as part of her her team.
And so she's Puerto Rican and converted,
converted to Islam later in life.
And she wanted she was struggling to find a
story or how to tell the story around that.
So and she wears a hijab.
So it was starting to become a little on the
nose. Right. You know, and so I was like, we
don't have to do the story that way.
It doesn't have to be about you being a
Puerto Rican woman who became a muslim and
and you wear a hijab and all that.
It doesn't have to be that. Let's just talk.
Let's just talk. Let's go through your life.
Just tell me different stories. So we went
back and we were just telling different
stories, and she was just sharing.
And she shared a story about her dad and
about how she and her dad ran out into the
eye of a hurricane one time to check on her
car. And they, you know, things were quiet
in the eye of the storm.
But then the wind started to pick up again.
And so they were booking it and running
home, and they finally got home and ran into
the house, burst out laughing, and their mom
was like, what is wrong with you people?
Why would you go out in a hurricane?
And then I asked her, well, why would you go
out in a hurricane? And then we just started
teasing through what the lessons were in
that. And for her it came up like, well, the
only person she would have done that with
was her dad. And I'm like, okay.
And so we started talking about trust and
what we will do with people who we really
trust. And so we made the connection.
We're like, okay, well, what about and this
is the story of us. Right?
Then we switch to maybe people, um, wouldn't
run out in a hurricane, but you've been part
of a military, um, troop, or maybe you've
been a part of a sports team.
You understand what it is to run into danger
with people who you trust.
And so now, in this moment where our team,
we're faced with the challenges and
sometimes the difficulties of wrestling
through diversity and inclusion and
belonging. And it's not going to be sunshine
and rainbows, and there's going to be
challenges, and sometimes it's going to feel
like a hurricane. But because we trust each
other, we can get through this.
We can get through all of it together.
Look at that. We use her story as a
metaphor, right? Like we didn't try to,
like, come up with all these fancy things to
say, but the richness of what the talk
became was in the power of that story
moment. But we let the story tell and reveal
to us all these powerful nuggets, and then
we just made the connections going forward.
So if I leave folks with nothing else, you
have so many rich, powerful stories that
that could potentially be really powerful
talks, if you will trust your story moments
to tell you and to reveal to you that the
treasure that they have within them.
And that's using story as metaphor.
And I absolutely, I love working with folks
that way because it gives them themselves
and their stories back. They're just like,
oh wow, I didn't know there was so much
treasure and power in my story because I was
judging my stories and just trying to get to
the end without sort of like starting from
just, let's just sit with the story and see
what it tells us. So I love doing that.
Carol Cox: What a great example, joy.
And that is also the power of having a
coach, of working with someone, of talking
about stuff out loud because you are so
close to your own story, you know, you've
either, you know, thought about it in your
head or told it with your family members or
whatever for so long that you know the
specifics of the story, but you don't
necessarily know the universal themes or the
lessons, or it's harder for you to pick
those out because you're so close to it,
because you were the one doing those things.
So that is the power of working with us and
our thought leader Academy as we do, as we
help women clarify their ideas, pinpoint
those key stories and build them out, and of
course, create their entire signature talks
as well. You can get all the details about
our Thought Leader Academy at speaking your
brand. Com Slash Academy.
Joy is also the host of a fantastic podcast
called Reframe to Create.
I'll make sure to include a link to that.
So if you already enjoyed listening to.
Podcast. Make sure in your podcast app to
search for, reframe, to create and follow
that and listen to Joy's episode.
Of course, connect with us on LinkedIn.
All those links are in the show notes as
well. Diane and Joy, thank you so much for
once again coming on the Speaking Your Brand
podcast. I am so grateful to have both of
you as such, valued contributors to the work
we do here at Speaking Your Brand.
It truly does fulfill the mission that we
have to empower more women, but just more
people in general to tell their stories so
that not only for their audiences but also
for themselves, for positive change in the
world. So thank you, thank you, thank you.
Until next time.
Thanks for listening.