[Music]
all well hello everyone and welcome to
another exciting episode of Pharma
insights the talk show brought to you by
platfor force where we explore the
intersections of Technology strategy and
Innovation at the pharmaceutical
industry as you may already know my name
is l Cel and I'll will be one of your
moderators for today in today discussion
we will navigate the second part of our
CRM landscape episode uh the shift from
rep Centric to content Centric
strategies as you may recall we have
already started this conversation back
in June and now we will be exploring the
second part into the changes and
incorporation we can expect in the
future I want to say tell you and that
if you haven't watched the first part
you always welcome to watch our content
on the month I promise you are not going
to uh you're not you're going to love it
as you may know this episode will be
also C moderated by uh Stefan raing head
of marketing here at plat Force let me
introduce him hi Steph how are you doing
today hey hello hello I hope everyone's
great I'm great already because well
this episode is sponsored by October
1 no I'm joking um it's not sponsored by
October 1 I just have a funny thing here
uh but the dream force uh conference was
quite interesting um there is certainly
a few talks that a few part which I
liked about the platform talks and you
know um of course the dream Force showed
us uh the AI capabilities that
Salesforce is going to is going to use
in particular Einstein H but without
further Ado let's introduce our other
guests uh because we have like it's full
of a 18 players you know like let's have
it okay so let me welcome our first
guest FL Florent Edward hi Florent how
are you doing today hello good afternoon
good good evening everyone or good
morning maybe to you I don't
know we are a worldwi platform so you
can be whatever in the world I'm I'm in
France I'm in Paris so I'm there you go
there you go uh now we're are going to
introduce Chris Wade hi Chris how are
you doing today hi everyone lovely to
see you again and but not least phip bit
hello Phillip how are you doing hey guys
hey guys good afternoon I'm doing great
I'm doing great happy to hear that so uh
for our all attendees you know how this
works for the new ones we will love to
hear from you so please drop your
comments or your questions into the live
chat of our stream we have melon Duro
the social media Guru here at platfor
and she's going to introduce your ideas
to the panel so you can actually live
interact with them I invite you I
encourage you to do it so without any
further delay I think we are ready to
start this incredible talk
step fre Floren Philip Flor um actually
let Philip Philip had a we had a
pre-show uh before the episode and
Philip had a few interesting ideas a few
notes he has scrible down I think those
are quite controversial I'd like to
start with those pH you want you want to
take the
microphone no I I think I just want to
start also with just positioning some of
the the things right because we we said
okay we want to evolve or we have this
conversation around evolving from rep
Centric to uh to content Centric and I
think it might be interesting just to
frame when we talk about rep Centric to
content Centric what it what it actually
means right and I'll I'll give you my
few Sense on it we're in we're an
interesting phase of the year right
everybody's building their I think we're
we're very close to finalizing budgets
so most of the countries are are there
and they're building their tactical
plans or strategic and then tactical
plans if you would look tomorrow at a
tactical plan from a certain country
that is repc Centric you would probably
see there oh we're having in our first
sales cycle we're having a detail Aid
we're doing this activity and in a
second sales cycle we're doing a webinar
there's a high focus on these most of
them rep driven um content pieces that
are coming coming to life and also some
other channel activities if you would
then move over to to to countries that
are more focused on a Content Centric
strategy they have a certain approach to
saying what are the key messages for
each segment that we need to be driving
in a certain sales cycle and how do we
going to replace that key key message
that message focus is it on launching a
new product on Awareness on MOA on
safety and efficacy data and how are we
going to deploy that across with using
certain engagement tactics across
certain channels with a certain
experience so I always say like if you
would show me two tactical plans we can
probably already say is that is that
come to your Market more focused web
Centric that channel Centric uh area or
is it more driven by already a more
strategic point of view with uh with
putting content um centrally in that
engagement that's basically those two
those two approaches and they also
provide you with a very different
maturity level of um is it this more a
maturity level that is focusing on
activating the field or is there also a
powerful marketing team behind this
really driving both sales and direct
marketing
activity I don't know and and Flor how
you how you see this topic with um rep
Centric and and content
Centric so um that's a very good that's
a very good question I what I've
observed and as I was telling you know
Stefan earlier uh today I'm a free man I
finish my job withal tomorrow I start my
job in sopi I'm in between the two so
can speak
absolutely what I have observed in my in
my years in in Pharma that whether it
was with Novartis asraa or others or gal
looking forward to SFI is in fact
companies are Centric by function what I
mean by that is marketing is generally
product
Centric you will have medical with K
Centric then you will have sales with
rep Centric and then you know all of
those are disconnected so traditionally
we had beautiful marketing strategies
not completely fueled by medical
evidence that were not delivered by
sales because reps wanted to do
something else what that means in terms
of supporting systems or CRM platforms
and stuff like that that the marketeers
never wanted to dirty their fingers by
using any kind of system they just
wanted to do PowerPoint that was good
enough then you had the sales who were
dumped on a 200 Page detail Ed that made
absolutely no sense in a three minute
call in the corridor with a doctor so
they were kind of doing whatever they
wanted and you know taking some abstract
I even saw in a former life reps going
onto the internet and printing
PowerPoint presentations to go to the
doctor I don't recommend that it's not
compliant don't do it some did it right
uh and and and then you you had no one
really taking care of the content and in
fact when you think about it if you
bring in the customer himself at the
center the customer is the one that
makes the joint between the content the
rep the the Medics and the marketeers
and I really think
any content Centric system organization
or way of working needs to account who
is going to look at that content how are
they going to consume it where do they
want to see it what format and all that
and then we can have a real efficient
content Centric approach to uh the
customer needs basically so there is
something around the the customer that
is very important in that
critic guys is there a difference
between content cetric evidence
centry do you see the two as being
interchangeable or is content
delivering I something in addition to
sharing the evidence that we have around
you know treatment
X disease area y this is what we know
this is what the trials have told us
this is what our real world evidence is
telling us who who are you ask King the
medical guy or the marketing guy the
guy the medical guy will tell you
there's no difference the marketing guy
will tell you oh my stating is better
than your stating oh far better than
your
Statin no when you look at it from
content point I mean there's a lot of
transactional content as well right
especi so I think I would say content is
a bit broader than than pure uh evidence
based so I think it's a broader category
um that's it hey Chris how how do you
see the how do you see from your point
of view this this rep Centric and and
and content Centric piece
I think the rep Centric is pretty well
it's comfortable territory I guess this
is where most organizations certainly
anybody who's had kind of CRM in their
job title in the last 20 odd years is
essentially to Florence point is kind of
living in that world where I'm in this
I'm in this corner of the office and we
think about reps and we think about hcp
engagement because that's what our guys
are measured of um and even we don't
know or perhaps we don't really care
what other parts of the
organization um are trying to achieve be
it around K's be it around you know you
know other you know other other sort of
particular tactics or or outcomes
um I think the um the shift it implies
that I guess if if it's trying to imply
anything it's not just saying same sh
you know same you know same or same or
same instrument different tune so we're
trying to do something that is broader
than just what a rep does by being able
to apply content in a cleverer broader
way across our different channels of
Engagement um so you know and I remember
you know the session that uh that you
know that brought your colleagues you
know Nick and uh name um presented it uh
at next farmer saying like the majority
of Engagement now is being driven
digitally you know in grel you know when
you look at just numbers on the page
there's more going on on the digital
Outreach side than on the on the the the
the physical side so so that's you know
that Demands a lot of content that
Demands a more you know content but is
it content Centric is it customac
Centric I think content in itself just
saying making a straight switch from rep
to content kind of you could find
yourself trapped in the same place but
just looking at different things you
still could be just talking about a
field Channel I'm thinking more about
what I'm feeding them with what I'm help
you know what information I'm trying to
you know or or or materials I'm creating
to support what they're trying to do but
it's not really actually changing what
we're doing or how we're doing it it's
just hopefully you know moving away from
a 200 Page detail Aid to something
that's a bit more succinct a bit more
focused a bit more
flexible I I think it will drive that
conversation on that you need to change
as an organization because if if by
Nature you go always to the rep as a
first B basically the detail a is your
your your your reference point right
it's your one source of Truth and then
so people build the detail a and based
on that uh they build a few adding
emails so they go to this rep plus model
I position and I follow up with one or
two emails that's it the big
St that's Inception that's that you know
that's that's for me the Inception of
the problem we have with customers this
is why they trust external websites more
than company Pharma company websites
this is why they don't want to see rapes
with are another detailed because what
we propose to them is not what they want
to consume it's not in the format they
want to consume it it's not delivered
the way they want they want it delivered
and you know Chris made the point that
and that's true that uh we have
delivered in gental in 2024 and
consistently more face Toof face more
digital interactions than face tof face
interactions and when we say
interactions it's really someone
interacting with a gental Content but we
were able to do that because we said the
rep the cam is the orchestrator of the
whole experience but you know we drive
the campaigns uh toward the customers
yeah and I can tell you we recently I
did the AI layer on top of it and we
have reached unseen for us level of
Click through which are in the double
digits and having double digits on
emails to hcps double digit click
through rates is amazing for us so we
really think that this is where the key
is in making sure customer and content
are really really aligned and fine tuned
yeah I agree agree but I think once you
start shifting to that what you just
said you're you're driving more and more
campaigns so so instead of instead of a
marketeer producing I'm producing
content detail AES for the rep yeah that
marketeer starts to own his his part of
the engagement roll like I said rolling
up a sleeve so it's it's if you start
taking small step away from that rep
towards a a different way of thinking
about an engagement for the marketeer
it's a massive shift also for the rep
but for the the marketeer it's it's
great and we also been refer referencing
to the rep as it is a valid option but
some some companies also have a go-to
market challenge where the rep is not
always a solution now some of the rare
disease options or some of the countries
that that are working in in in consumer
health or whatever so sometimes the rep
is not always there is no rep first
option so and I think it it's these
companies that's starting to have okay
I'm bringing a product to Market it has
a goto Market model which is not uh is
not an easy ticket to say okay I'm
putting in um uh 25 or 30 rep in France
and that will solve the the issue no
it's it's more difficult because uh we
need to find our patients we're a very
rare disease how do we deal with this is
these companies that I see making bigger
steps because they see Omni Channel or
multi or the engagement question itself
yeah as a as a way to solve their goto
Market issue in launch and that's where
I that's and the slowest movers for me
are the countries that that are still
very comfortable in this oh we got reps
that are for me are the slowest movers
today so I see I see difference and that
can be different speeds in the same
company sometimes but isn't the starting
point in that if you if you if you are
operating in a rep Centric way and you
ask the question what does my customer
Universe look like you know you know
what are the boundaries of it are we
talking about a single specialty or
maybe a couple of or a particular subset
you know how we basically targeted and
said you know so the the
the customer Universe for my sales team
is very specific because I'm really
going to be thinking hard about where
does it make sense where am I going to
get impact and hopefully
prescribing from the the work that sales
the sales team doing that's what their
job is but that's not the same thing as
the the kind of the the broader you know
Universe of healthcare professionals who
are involved in that patient Journey so
when you think about rare disease
classic case is yes you've got a tiny
treatment population you know
potentially minute at a country level
couple of you know and a and a tertiary
Center that has a you know similar
number of of Specialists so but what you
do have is an enormously long chain of
referral that you're saying you're
trying to help people who are never
going to be at the point of
treatment understand that this this
condition exists this is what you can be
aware of etc etc sort of more from Med
medical education standpoint it's still
marketing um and I says unless you're
talking about treatments which are
really only used in primary care as soon
as you've got any kind of referral then
you've got a much bigger sort of set of
Allied audiences you know other
Specialties other roles who you're never
going to put a rep in front of them you
know unless they happen to come to a
lunch and alert or something like that
you know almost by by by by you know by
luck but this is that sort of broader
audience where and I'm not surprised you
know I'm delighted and not very
surprised that you know you're seeing
the impact of utilizing AI to help shape
campaign design and to sort of come up
with you know not a customer Journey
that started its life as a thousand
Post-it notes on a wall but it's
something which you are generating
dynamically on that you know n of one
because you can and this is where we
just and this is you know I think we're
going to I don't know if this is the
point we kind of make a little sidew
step and say actually it's not about
content centricity it's about AI
centricity because AI will be the you
know is the difference you know around
not just which customer you're selecting
or which piece of content you're
selecting but how do you synthesize it
you know well I think just just to build
on your point I think it's going to be
interesting to look at after you know
six months one year of usage of the next
best action to
see what's the share of the next best
action that are a cam or a rep needs to
go through the doctor and how many times
the AI will say well in fact what we
need is to make this available for that
doctor through one channel or another
you know having
that uh function neutral ey on our data
that's going to tell us really in fact
what you need is to do a series of 25
webinars where you invite the people and
then you have a follow up with a cam who
brings in additional
materials when we will be at that level
then we'll be able to optimize our model
because the challenge of the model is to
your point Philip multiple geographies
but also products that are very
different from something that you need a
Nerf to apply or an injection in the
knee or something like that to something
that is at the end of life and you know
nearly uh
generified the Comm ation model are
fundamentally different so to to
understand that complexity the help of
AI will be absolutely fundamental
because it's going to be databased it's
going to tell us this work that work
fully agree but what I what we now see
is when we talk about Omni Channel and
engagement I say we always talk about
this at a very very tactical level it's
always about at which channels are
preferred by physicians in Spain versus
I mean but what we know talk what I see
now is the conversations I have and
those are really interesting is that how
can Omni Channel help within certain
commercialization models which I have
across my portfolio and is this is this
a brand that I need to launch is this a
brand or product that requires extra
nurture on medical education do I do I
dare need to deploy a very different set
of of tacticals and more profound robust
content where we extend medad or is it
or is this a is this a product at the
end of life cycle which where I need to
reduce my field Force to actually deploy
a very different model and this is this
is where the conversation with people in
in the roles that I see today in
commercial Excellence too far away
sometimes from the launch and from that
commercial that early conversation on
how do we deploy a commercial model and
which capabilities do I activate
depending on the type of product the
type of Physicians my my my universe and
my market that's that's for me that's
sometimes where it already goes wrong on
when they do okay very easy oh we need
10 reps because those 10 reps need to do
X number of volume calls and they you
know the the market sizing assignments
that we had in the past and that's where
it sometimes already goes wrong I think
yeah but those model so I I've worked on
those models right so uh those models
are all built on the same thing it's a
traditional S curve of response of you
know consumer versus you know pressure
commercial pressure versus consumer this
model in healthare is broken it's it's
not working anymore it's not because you
are going to reach a specific frequency
of coal that you are going to sell more
that your product is going to be better
for so I I think we yeah we really need
to get out and away from this approach
agree we got questions yeah we have
questions so the first one is a question
to the panelist how is the rep role
defined is it inform informed
orchestrators or orchestrated executors
the discussion needs to be interpreted
in a very different ways based on the
answer to this critical question who
wants to tackle
that should we go it should we go it
depends yeah no that's that's a very
good question I think um it's it depends
on the market you're in and specifically
the type of product that you have
so we go from let's go to the two
extremes you will have in Specialty Care
you will have in oncology you will have
in rare disease key account managers who
are going to help a doctor improve his
medical practice that may require of
course knowing the product knowing the
science and being able to talk about the
product but also being able to spot the
patient in the US being able to follow
uh the benefits realization of the
patient so that the patient is eligible
for the therapy the scheduling the the
the supply of the medicine to to the
practice they may need to have to help
in there so it's a very specific job at
the other end of the spectrum you will
still have some markets who are very
share of Mind driven for some products
in uh the physician's mind we see that
for instance if you take Spain Spain is
an interesting country because when a
generic enter the market in Germany the
original the original is toast in a week
or in a month right produ sales go down
M nothing left no business in Spain
there is still a really you know brand
Equity existing in the market and the
originator keeps being promoted through
set rep who just go around and help the
doctor and remind the doctor prod for 10
years so I think that's a very
transactional role while your first role
is as a very close proximity to The
Physician as a very more in very close
role to that physici and
practice my my my belief that the first
one is going to grow in terms of
importance also because we see the
evolution of the portfolio of the Pharma
company going toward those products more
while the other one is going to go down
and potentially be you know replaced by
digital platforms and digital
Solutions it's also margin question I
mean it's there's a commercial side to
this as well well I guys so there's
there's that as well but but isn't there
also a question you know in stepan's
question it's the both qu both both
options have orchestration in the in you
know in the
description frankly I think you know I
think in most organ in lot of
organizations it's a myth there's no
orchestration at the rep level what what
could he orchestrate today what could
they can orchestrate their own choice of
act you know what they do as them how
can they orchestrate NE necessarily what
another part of the business is doing
they could orchestrate their scope which
is they could show detail a slide one or
two or three that's it and then they can
send an so the the and of course how
they approach The Physician more from an
exper but they're they're due to the
nature and setup of of of uh the rep is
is basically Limited in their potential
to orchestrate yeah but it depend what
you give them as tools I mean you know
they can always call in an MSL which is
something generally requested but if you
give them library of contents that they
can tap into based on the physician
demands or again you know if they are
equipped with a real file on their
customer that tell them that Chris is
interested into this while Philip is
interested into that then they can go up
and pick some elements and and try some
content with that customer but again it
it that's the informed orchestrate right
they're feed in they can do a Prof iling
or they they know by Nature this is a
person with and and the other part is
well it's it's the importance of feeding
back data so if if for example if if we
did automated drip campaigns they were
triggered by the rep or what Viva now
also has and we had it as well is they
can also stop it so they they do they do
have a valuable role in in leveraging
data which then of course what Florence
says it needs to happen but also feeding
back very close customer proximity data
which is almost impossible it's there's
a bias let's let let's be honest um and
when you ask when you ask your your your
reps to profile or or the asking the
question do you want to keep on seeing
reps or do you prefer digital that's
always this interesting thing but there
is a certain value in there so I think
this conversation does not have the
objective to saying that that there's no
value in the rep when employed or
equipped with with the tools that are
there today
yeah but orchestration implies that they
are doing something beyond their own
choice you know otherwise they're just
promot they're promoting which is fine
if if you if you've got a field team
which have got a range of content that
they can use they've got you know
different levers that they can pull in
terms of what they're doing when they're
with a customer that's fine but that's
just them doing their job orchestration
you know the what the promise of
orchestration was you've got somebody
who is kind of like CEO of their
territory
who's pulling all these levers that
influence how other parts of the
business can can can can bring
value and that requires a far deeper
level of interconnectivity of
integration whatever you want to call it
um across these different business
functions if it's just somebody if they
you say send me an email pick up the
phone or something like that I'll see if
I can help yeah that's that's that's but
Chris what could happen is let's say
your Market team as as um as a webinar
campaign and and basically they asked
the Reps to saying to probe or to to ask
the right questions to probe if that
would be an interesting uh Target for
that webinar campaign for any other
campaign y that's that's how they could
trigger feedback to marketing saying
guys this is this this physician is
interested in patient cases or this
physician is interested in knowing more
about this or that's something that is
being being used today know yeah Absolut
of course it is but it's the the the
promise of orchestration is up here yeah
the reality of what's happening when
this is mostly stuff that's happening
via email that that conversation that
the the brand team will be sending out
an email or sending out a poll or
something like
that to to you know to their their
colleagues in the field organization
saying hey we've got this event coming
up you
know who could you know who do you want
to have you know invited that sort of
stuff you know talking about
events I want to ring up the event that
happened uh a few days ago uh beginning
middle of the
month little the little one the little
one very small very poor and almost no
attendees that one I'm kidding um what
do you guys uh are your intakes
regarding that it's changing a little
bit of the topic but I think it's still
so we talk about dreamforce right just
to that everybody's on the same page
listening yeah we're talking about dream
Force um so that happened and they
brought a lot of um for the guys have
have not been there they had a lot of uh
discussion regarding healthc care and
the innovations that they're bringing to
the floor um so I want to know the take
of you guys into those uh into that
subject
because we we discuss pre- call
pre-event we discuss a little bit about
it so um what are you inex Phillip you
had quite a
lot no I it's it's this obvious cliche
to say it's super excited to live to
live and work in a time like this in in
in healthcare but I the the next the
past year was exciting right with the
announcement via it's already two years
ago Viva Salesforce Salesforce ivia you
know shaking hands and and saying we're
going to do this together and our
salesource bit by bit we get these small
nuggets of of of information how it's
going to play out or or at least a
feeling for the Ambitions and that that
makes it very very dynamic in our
industry which has been like a little
bit of constant on the tech side that we
had some excitement around customer data
platforms and automation but now it's
the next five years will be will be I
think
gamechanging and really driving
different visions and how we organize
ourselves as farma so I think that's
that's great stuff I was I was actually
excited by uh by everything which I have
seen um uh which I've seen from
dreamforce it's clear that what they
bring with life science Cloud it's it's
a very holistic platform very broad it
goes beyond commercial it's a very very
big big scope that they're taking the
second one there's a full integration
with their customer data uh solution
data clouds and AI is not a side tool
it's not a side gimmick every layer of
the platform is infused with AI solution
Einstein as a conversational partner as
really a a new buddy on your side to ask
and as a sparring partner to ask and to
get information so I think those two are
very interesting and what we also said I
think in the last webinar it's it will
be a game changer for marketing
functions this is really if you as a
marketeer if tomorrow you're your
company decides to to step to take the
step forward and go forward with
Salesforce as a companywide platform you
really need to Envision that this is
going to change your function Your Role
description as marketeer how they
operate the volume of content they
consume the bells and whistles they have
and the capabilities they have at their
disposal so it's really game-changing
for that um for that marketing and and
medical function by the way um so that's
that's my take on it but very excited
but it's still it's still early days
right they're still restricted uh in I
think in some Communications but it's I
think it's really good stuff that we're
seeing
G I think it's it it highlights that
sales for sign in CRM
business they're in the they are in the
platform business so when you look at
what their you know the definition of
Life Sciences Cloud it's in the name it
is a platform that for Life Sciences
businesses it's not about C
not about one part or the other it is
about all of it um so you know huge
ambition um they're doing similar things
in other industry sectors fintech
Automotive you know this is you know in
our little sort of like backyard of of
of of you know life science or Pharmacy
RM it's easy to forget there's a whole
world out there um so this is a big
strategy a big play from you know from
Salesforce
you think you know look at you know if
you follow some of the announcements
around agent force and stuff like that
so it's a whale
shift from the kind of transactional
tools that were the the sort of the
foundation to the business to where they
want to go to where the sort of you know
a effec the geni agent becomes the the
application so it is there's just you
know there are huge you know big problem
never forget these are marketing events
um so every time that you know it's not
the product engineering team that pays
for dreamforce it's marketing um Viva
Summit exactly the same it's paid for by
marketing so they're going to try and
put the most positive you know Spin and
gloss on everything that's being
announced and a lot of it is you know
kind of we'll see how it goes um and you
know wearing sort of my exeo hat you
know this is a comp itive space um and
you see you know they're not the only
platform game in town so you know the
platform we built on is Microsoft you
know huge platform player bour is you
know one of the you know one of the key
you know data platforms used across the
you know the business World globally not
just in life sciences teams all of these
other sort of core Microsoft components
um but it is a different architecture to
sales forces so you you know companies
will have to you know are facing some
very big decisions when they look at
their kind of holistic architecture um
around how do they manage their data how
do they manage the cost of data um you
know AI is very very data intensive so
that's not going to go away uh so you
know being able to do that and that's
all you know a huge part of what
Salesforce are promising their investors
is this is this pathway is the way is is
the way to grow um but at the m at the
micro level yeah there's some really
really interesting stuff that they're
talking about about shifting I guess
what we've thought sort of CRM is or has
been to what that to the way that
they're thinking about it uh so yeah I
mean it's always a great show you can't
you can't knock them uh but you know
there's lot there's lots to to kind of
try and digest and understand as to well
how is this going to play out over the
next sort of you know year year or two
um and what work are people going to buy
into it it's I guess the big
question
bant yeah so let's remind ourself that
we are having the discussion today
because uh Viva and Salesforce decided
to divorce right and they
decided we we the children would have to
pay for choosing who's gonna have the
pleasure to keep us right so that's a
little bit that's a little bit ironical
um but being a company where we we we
had half of our activity going through
via and half of it going through
Salesforce of course we had people at
dreamforce they were presenting what
gral was doing in terms of activity with
with Salesforce and we are we were
highly interested in in the in the
presentation from
Salesforce uh we think it's going to be
a game changer at least it rebalances
the odds because just two elements one
is the possibility that they will have
that we will have of using an agent
inside Salesforce to do the segmentation
using gni of the customers which
literally means if I am a rep uh de
enstein create the list of the 15 hcps
in my territory that are the most
interested into this topic and send them
an email with the right content inviting
them to a webinar yeah and you would you
should be able to do that which totally
changes the way you do segmentation and
targeting it's Dynamic segmentation
right but it's I saw I saw a video where
they talk about the the development of
AI exclusively for healthcare and how
it's going to be uh and how it's going
to be used in sfor and uh delivering
emails and and suggest even suggestion
how you can reach out to the customer
depending on the information that you
had already in in in hand in the store
and so that that breaks down the
complete you know usual commercial chain
of pharmer from marketeers preparing
contents being to be dispatched by RS in
a very disciplined manner with the right
frequency so you break that completely
then I'm going to see uh you as a
customer right and then I can say what
is she interested in what has she done
over the last six months what has she
seen and it's going me a full brief on
all the interaction and everything he
knows about you saying the most likely
topics to interest there right now
because she wanted to attend this
Congress in the past is what's going to
be the abstract on NEOS arthritis into
that Congress and so you can prepare
your call for that so again you know the
what has been the
the the repeat repeat message of all SF
people telling the the revs and the
camps you need to prepare your calls you
need to know your customer you need to
know your message you need to come in
with an objective suddenly you don't
have to scroll through dozens of pages
and notes and stuff helps you crappy
screens the system is going to tell you
exactly what you need to know when you
go into the cold so significant
different customer experience add a
result so I think it's this is why the
people at least were excited about it to
chis point is that marketing or will it
be a reality that's what we will need
time will then right yeah yeah I I think
there's always a few things that because
I mean we think it's great right but
it's like looking at the latest car and
seeing all of the options and then all
the whistles yeah and then there's two
things there's two things that kind of
bring you like oh wait uh there's one
can I operate them or do I have a team
to operate those bells and whistles and
then the second one is seeing the price
ticket of the of of the Bell so the
question for me is are we is this
something for the top 20 farmer
companies but what about the smaller
other ones is this is this uh is this
too big is this and the second one is if
tomorrow floron if you would if you
would launch this into a marketing team
what's the pathway to really making this
happen because what you said right it's
breaking the change of content it
impacts mlr it impacts uh the power
agencies have because this is this is
pretty impactful on the agency side as
well so there's also the pathway to
adoption towards
Excellence um maybe there's two
questions so the for which type of
customer is this um and the second one
is how how are you running this the
adoption path I saw not related to
Pharma but in the same event that there
were showcasing how Sophie I don't know
if you heard the asan the AI agent at
help in customer service but how it
worked and they showcase it that you can
include new uh task or new things for
Sophie to do but my question as uh I'm
not really into or I don't really get
I'm not into Sal it or software my
question would be will that be easy
enough for someone like me to understand
easily so I can incorporate that into my
into my business and if not how much
will cost me so it's go back to your
question Philip about pricing and time
adoption because those are things are
definitely going to be the to the
selection of the of the solution that
you're bringing to the table if it's
going to take too much time and too much
money to implement that then it doesn't
really make sense to make the change
does it yeah but at the same time you're
uh going to be stuck with something that
it's not very uh it's not developing or
it's not develop as self supp course it
is developing right now because AI is
inside the tool that you're using yeah
yeah so you got good news bad news good
news is it's this stuff is easier to
implement from a point of view techn
technically deploying it you're not
deploying 80 different systems yes so
one of the one of the big shifts that of
course the
platform the platform plays their
biggest argument for why invest in a
platform is it allows you to
consolidate and you know when you speak
to the cios the CTO you know what is it
that the gay getting beaten up beaten
over their head with by their CFO cost
of cloud services extraordinary numbers
these LGE particularly larger organiz
even midsize companies are paying for
their Cloud operations and everything
they do is cloud-base Nate it's almost
like so now you've got big a lot of big
companies looking for hybrid strategies
where actually it we should be bringing
some of our data back on Prem um you
know we should be recommissioning some
of sort of you know server capacity
because it's just costing us so much to
have it sort of wearing away in the
cloud and paying you know every terabyte
every day we're you know we're paying it
so it's that sort of that that big that
that net cost of ownership is is a big
concern for a lot of organizations and
they look at their sort of their entire
sort of data footprint so that's for
good news the bad news
is this is a revenue driver you know
they're not doing it out of the goodness
of their heart they're doing it to make
money you know these are
companies so the reason that you know
that they're that they're re
architecting the offering to making it
you know essentially AIC Centric sort of
that sort of next transition from sort
of an application you know an
application experience to an agent
experience
is that's going to generate a lot of
Revenue it's more profitable to do to to
do that and it also you know it
distinguishes what they can do and it's
a high investment for Salesforce as well
right I mean it is a high investment but
you know opening point they're a big
company um you know Microsoft spent $2
billion acquiring Nuance I don't know if
you guys are familiar with Nuance
they're know basically a health care AI
specialist they were one of the sort of
they did a lot in the sort of voice in
sort of voice
recognition very heavily used in the
sort of the health care sector in the US
so anything about comes like Epic and
stuff like that and they're actually in
the hospital in the provider space big
users of nuance so the kind of the kind
of money that's been put on the table to
kind of build this cap cap these
capabilities you know you look at the um
the large language space you know it
costs billions of dollars to to be able
to get into that world so that's why
there's so few players you know you've
got open AI you've got you know a
handful of others who are serious plays
in building these underlying models that
everything that Salesforce is doing
everything that we're doing is dependent
on on these large language or small
language models that costs billions to
you know hundred there hundreds of
millions to develop and are constantly
being redeveloped this pce of of of
model release is just terrifying um for
what it means for investment but this is
actually the underpinning for everything
that they're talking about at dreamforce
is based on you know these kinds of like
very very significant Investments and
you know making that then you know make
turning that into a profitable
profitable business so yeah so good news
is it's easy to deploy the bad news is
it's going to cost you more um and you
know when we look at the cost to
CRM this is going to dwarf that yeah but
it's it's apples and pairs right I mean
you cannot compare a CRM versus the
offering that we're seeing on the
table how how does the CRM engagement
automation platform and a CDP cost
versus what we're
seeing it will yes you're right at the
moment we kind of tend to ignore that
instead of say we're just looking at one
box and say oh our serum cost is this
and we
ignore the true cost of all of those
other components that we have in place
to actually make it work but this is
important right because can you still do
a business case where you're saying I'm
comparing my CRM uh let's say whatever
it is my current CRM with what I've
heard at dreamforce because
that's because when we in June we talked
about H it's it's it's not a war on crms
but we're comparing CRM we're not
comparing CRM systems anymore we're
comparing CRM system with the offering
that we're hearing and again right it's
the marketing offering but what we're
hearing is a CRM solution I think they
have an equation as well it's a CRM
solution it's a data it's a CDP there's
an AI engine and uh I'm hearing also
about the the data inputs it's it's it's
a more
holistic more total view right even if
via is doing their CRM with their
automation solution it's not covering
the same
scope but I really think I mean if you
want to go for the ri SL Financial angle
then you need to include everything and
by including everything I mean you need
to include the cost of the sales rep you
need to include the cost of the data
exactly to the point of a CD in the in
the in the mail I think you know just to
take to take an example a call with a
sales SHP cost let's say in average 80
EUR to 100 EUR right an interaction
through digital platform is less than
0.5 Euro so right now we are at 50/50
face to face and digital and with
marketing mix modeling I can know very
precisely what are the sales generated
by a call and what other the sales
generated by an approved email or a
marketing campaign yeah mix there are
there are you know statistical
mathematical ways to optimize your mix
based on the product life cycle you know
in same way when you have end of life
product with very small margins because
at the end of the day you got 98%
carryover on that product right so you
have 2% of addressable sales you're not
going to put a sales rate that's in of
course mathematically so I think there
are ways that to your point you you
can't just look at the cost of one
component in isolation it's a shift in
in a in a model um guys we have another
question regarding this uh one second
it's going to charge up in the screen
like with most AI system is it about the
information that fits it where does the
customer data comes from how expensive
it is how many different sources and who
owns
them iqv is one of the
sources that's been very I
mean have the cost and who no I'm
kidding no so there's it's it's a very
very important question right because if
you talk about I have low volume of
interactions I mean what can I do with
it so how I saw the model now from
dreamforce being built up they want to
maximize the number of data sources they
they they integrate right it's your own
engagement data your own first party
enriched with other sources but they
they really Envision like guys we can
offer you not a 360 but we we integrate
all of the engagement data from your
HPS um in into our data model so that's
what they do and then they they can
enrich it with third party data as well
um and I think um that that data Epi is
kind of an open model that they use on
the data site that's what I understood
from what I heard at dreamforce maybe
you guys can poses poses a fascinating
question though given
um the litigation that has existed
around the data space a lot of it comes
down to data
mixing you have you know once that data
goes into your AI you have no chain of
ownership any longer there's no water
chain any longer so you don't know what
it's going to be used for down you know
Downstream because there's literally no
way of of of tracking that um the nature
you know the nature of of what the data
is going through so it's a you know it
would be interesting to see how I know
iqv obviously have got you know a lot
invested in their relationship with
Salesforce but historically they
generally haven't been very happy about
mixing their data with other
providers um so you know that idea that
have a different partnership now right
they because they really set a dream
force that they can integrate IQ via
exponent data with with their Salesforce
solution so I assume that the
partnership they announced in what was
it April is really they're basically
they said their partnership is about OC
but what I now hear at dream for is the
partnership is not about OC it's really
about this data integration a lot more
yeah but there's a if you look if take
look at the US market there are a lot of
sources of data that companies can
choose to buy into yeah keeping that
that you know it's proprietary data you
can't just sort of buy it and and and
and and and mix it up because for
example thehc P side of it it's like
that whole side of you know you know
they retain ownership over the
underlying record and they're getting
changes being passed back so it would
just be interesting to see how that sort
of you know how that develops the
concept but you know the idea of a CDP
being fed by many data sources is kind
of that's what a CDP is supposed to do
it's sort of that's the name that's s of
like the name on the T um yeah so that's
going to be interesting I think it
depends how technically it's going to be
clustered because right now what we have
with those AI systems is some kind of
your private kind of AI right so if I
feed into it uh my customer data it
Remains Not accessible to anyone else
than me at least that's part of the
contract that we have like for instance
with Microsoft and if we wipe it it's
gone no one's going to be able to see it
anymore so I think it really it will
depend on the contract but I would
answer to the question ultimately all
the data comes from the customer
themselves and that's why one the EC
consents are critical and the way you
are going to manage your EC consent
policy strategy and communication to
customer is critical because already
gdpr forces us to tell people if we are
segmenting them why we are them there is
the communication aspect but there's
just segmentation also now yeah there
the data privacy part right what do I I
use your data to segment you or to
personalize that experience that's
that's
mely proactively say we are going to use
AI tools to do this and your a data will
be in an AI that we control and that no
one has access to so there is you know
that part of remembering that the data
is a customer customer own data yeah but
the fact that you use the customer data
to profile and to to segment in a
different way and therefore to tailor
the experience but it's more on the data
privacy side than I think on EC consent
but everything around gdpr EC consent
and then of course cookies because I
don't know how many people accept
cookies but it's a very limited uh a
limited group I think it's close to 20%
what I see from customers so it's it's
it's it's very limited but that's the
main issue and I think also what I hear
now from dreamforce the examples as well
as oh we're going to tailor the
experience and then you can reconnect it
with sales it's it's within the American
model because I mean I think what they
present at dreamforce is very focused
the use cases and the examples on the
American Market I mean because in Europe
that doesn't fly that that well some of
these examples so I think it would be
interesting to see um how does the how
do the dream force examples how do they
play out within the rules and and the
restrictions of Europe so I think that
would be a good one yeah um there is one
comment from Stefan says we aware no
information is a is as fresh and
granular as what a as as what a well
prepared and enabled rep is able in real
time well
engaging don't think it's a question I
think it's a
statement if you got a good r or a good
cam they will add a lot of value into
the mix and a lot of great information
into the right commercial model yeah
again that that well repaired rep in
your end of life product I mean so we
it's it's I think we we take that we
take that model and that life cycle and
that portfolio piece always out of the
question when it is rep versus digital
and it will the repap lose his job yeah
probably the repap that is that is that
is working with that end of life cycle
product could I mean but that's that's
something that's a completely different
different
aspect they'll move to a different
company because you know you won't have
you you don't have rips on end of life
do you yeah that's what
mean but I think to your to your point
on on you know the the dreamforce stuff
being very us Centric I think there's a
lot we can learn from what they can do
in the US now that could also benefit
hcps and patients in Europe because when
I see that you can use the claims data
in the US to identify the patients that
will most likely benefit on the long
term in terms of health Improvement
reduction of you know symptoms
consultations and drug usage uh because
they are on your treatment and you can
find out which hcps are treating those
patients potentially that means you can
have your whole organization delivering
the right message to a customer an hcp
that has the right patient and we are
not able to do that in Europe for many
reasons right but if we were able to do
that I would argue that we could deliver
a better targeted
individual the right doctor instead of
spamming everyone with message that no
one is reading anymore so because now
we're shooting we're shooting in that
we're hoping we're shooting the the
right so everything about the right
messes yeah so we're we're always kind
of uh we always do this with one eye
right we have information but we don't
have everything so coming back to your
CDP your Dynamic segmentation works but
it doesn't work with the same parameters
as us model and that makes it
more more difficult um in the right
direction right they're giving more
access to the NHS data and stuff like
that and it's a French saying that
so I like the the the holistic from
Stefan yeah I love the
htic I love the
world it say the question is how
integrate this rep Advantage into the
holistic data
model I I think it's everything what we
said about the rep feeding not only
using the crm2 is it Advantage but also
feeding back right but I I think so I
think it's it's the give and take and
the the rep as
um is a is a is a massive insightful
tool for any for anybody in the back end
of the organization but I could be I
could be cheeky and just say you know
give the rap a good AI to talk to and
that's going to transform the rape
information into good data we can have
in a
system but yeah but the starting point
is still you've got a you've got a
commercial model that actually is going
to benefit from having reps yeah that's
yeah we we kind of need to play in that
box now right so and then what then to
your point for it's like what do the
what do they actually need tool wise why
do they need an app made up of about a
squillion different forms that they've
got to go and sort of like you know
delve around to try and find anything
out that's not very helpful never has
been we've we've all been in the field
we've all been with people where trying
to read the C notes after you know being
on the ride along and see okay what did
he wrote down last time and just like
it's excruciating to enter the notes in
the system and it's excruciating to read
them next time customer so we definitely
need that data and that Insight but we
need better tools for the for the people
to put them in the system well we talk
about us the importance of getting the
data from the from the sales rep we said
that uh when you're at a meeting and you
need to be paying attention to the
person that you're speaking with because
it's not like like hey wait a second I'm
going to take this into notes so you
need to do two things at the same time
and sometimes you forget to take some
notes that were important that were
discussed or maybe you add bias uh we
discuss about the bias so you add that
into the into the notes you have taken
so um how having an AI assistant or some
some kind of support will help into
taking those notes um unfortunately look
at most of our CR tools there is no data
entry of any or me limited data entry in
terms of core recording it's been
stripped there's no free text it's a
couple of radio buttons a couple of
dropdowns it's it's just cor compliance
it's not cor it's not even cor record
yeah because free T free text would get
people uh yeah pretty anxious yeah I
know you you have some companies some
startups and know at least two
specifically us right now who uh offer
solutions to record what's happening
during the call and to summarize it at
the end so it's mostly for quality of
the rep purpose but you the technology
exists now so that it could I use it I
use Au as well I
mean that billion I told you about you
know listening to a healthc care
professional listening to a healthcare
you know an educated conversation
between a trained rep and a healthcare
professional
you know that's why you you know those
tools exist you know they've been out
there for quite a while so's nothing
it's nothing there's no technical
barrier to this that hasn't been for a
number of years but there's a huge
compliance barrier comp or thinking
barrier to sad it says oh we can't go
there you know and yet we turn it out
the other end saying our data is rubbish
you know I wonder why
yeah how can we solve this the US is not
only compliance it's also legal
everything that you record is FDA and
dog discoverable so that means if you
keep it you may be asked to give it you
know at the simple request and it
becomes a nightmare for the organization
if you destroy it then you are uh most
likely to have problems because they
will tell you if it was clean You' had
no reason to destroy
it yeah so it means something was dirty
and then you're told it's it's it's
Catch 22 so it's it's a complicated one
for some organization some some are
doing it and they probably found the
good legal way to set it up hey guys
talking about I I didn't see the the
element of Roop map but I followed a few
conversations on LinkedIn some people
were like oh the road map it's a bit
disappointing it will only launch in in
the summer 2025 but yeah this because of
the restrictions with the contract right
we know why don't we yeah so but just
just give a recap like why why are they
not launching earlier so maybe it's it's
it's a good one also no I think they
cannot they are not allowed to Launch
earlier so they plan right now release
in September 25 one in Feb 26 and then
more in July 26 and it's because of the
the divorce of the two parents right
because of Viva Salesforce the divorce
actually they're restricted so this also
means that everything that Viva is
announcing now on the it's called
campaign manager I think on the
automation side um that will
also and I think both parties will need
the time to for F develop probably so so
what we will hear in December from viva
or I think it's November now um that uh
that will also still take time right
until September
2025 yeah it's I mean and it's an
interesting time that you've got a load
of companies I mean you know speaking to
myself it's like we're in a whole pile
of different rfis and rfbs at the moment
because they're running assessments
they're making decisions about hey you
know we've been on Viva for you know 10
plus
years big changes coming we need to make
a decision and so they're looking at the
you know options out there and so we've
got we can see you know the SI have been
really busy sort of like helping them
sort of you know run assessment
processes and stuff like that and now
it's sort of sort of starting to sort of
like come out as you know whether it's
just like Discovery exercises or rfis
and things like that so there's you know
there's a lot of activity in the market
around just finding out what this future
is going to look like so you know
whether it's from viva Force you know if
you're doing an assessment today the
most of the people saying yeah we're
doing a CRM assessment but that's the
wrong convers because if you and I can
say because I'm not exeo so if you put
EXO and Viva and Salesforce that
basically it's also how do I think about
the future about my commercial model and
how do I want to run this and even
Beyond commercial model but it's not
about okay can my can my app be used
offline uh that's not these kind of
functionalities of a CRM system that you
need to check does it does it work with
vaa does it work with ex it's a very
different way of of thinking about how
do I see the future of my my engagement
model yeah what we're seeing is one foot
in both camps often the kind of the the
the way it's framed is sort of it's CRM
but it's kind of looking to the Future
so there's a lot of CRM of the future
progress processes yeah
probably CR yeah and that's like that's
the that's that's the headline sort of
the name but when you actually look in
the RFI often the first part of it is
this is everything we do today can you
do that so there's a lot of just like
you know parity going on um but when you
go into the technical discussion often
that gets quite interesting is to yes
this is what we're doing now and we need
to make sure that you know that side of
it but they are there's a lot of you
know on the the sort of information
architecture um business architecture
side of things lots of quite open-ended
questions around this is where we see
ourselves heading to a much more
Consolidated sort of platform Centric
approach how do you work in that in that
world because that's not where they're
today today it's very you know it's it's
very siloed I've got a marke are you
having these conversations with people
or business people you have marketeers
do you have marketeers sitting at that
table um I think they're defin I get the
sense that probably it's still probably
largely kind of customer operations isal
Excellence loudest yeah exactly Florent
the loudest voice but you do have a
strong you've there's clearly a strong
voice from the kind of C CTO office and
I think
in and the bigger organizations you've
seen them organize themselves around
like you know a global customer
engagement or customer experience sort
of capability set and then looking you
know one part of that might be field Ops
but there's other people with different
you know but it's trigged by the license
owners right in most cases being being
CTO kind of
people um well I supp ultimately it's
who's got responsibility for
the the sort of business applications
you know the tools that the business
runs on that's for CTO yeah um so
ultimately it goes up it goes up to them
but yeah you've it's it's it's quite
variable but it's just kind of fun that
you've got you know you do have this you
know this is written now it's a lot of a
lot of larger organizations and we're
kind of seeing it that whether it's
midsize or small organization they're
doing it as well um but I think one of
those challenges often is they haven't
done this for a long time um so they're
kind of like getting to terms with how
do I run the internal assessment first
I'm not just going to go out and ask a
bunch of vendors come in and Pitch to me
is they need to they kind of worked out
that we've been doing it the same way
for over a decade in most cases maybe we
need to think about it a bit differently
maybe that sort of that you know that go
forward set of capabilities you know
what do we want how do we want to run
our commercial model you know that's
going to require some different you know
different
approaches so oh guys sorry to interrupt
uh we have run out of time actually we
are eight minutes more but this is a
good discussion I mean what can you do
uh so uh let's wrap it up I want to
thank you guys for being here thank you
for taking the time and being our
speakers for the show uh it was lovely
to have you again and I want to thank
our attendees for taking the time into
the show as well to watching us and I
will see you all on October 18th where
we uh have another episode of Arma
Insight regarding AI asan so you're all
welcome and I will see you later on so
without without any further further
things to say