WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.399 Matt: Hey Lawrence, welcome to the WP minute. 00:00:02.874 --> 00:00:03.634 Laurence: Thank you Matt. 00:00:03.744 --> 00:00:04.264 How are you? 00:00:04.264 --> 00:00:04.924 Matt: Doing well. 00:00:04.954 --> 00:00:11.694 I saw you posting on blue sky, about your content creation role at, Freemius. 00:00:11.694 --> 00:00:13.965 And I'm like, wait a minute, he's doing content. 00:00:13.995 --> 00:00:14.984 I love content. 00:00:15.025 --> 00:00:15.895 We're doing YouTube. 00:00:15.904 --> 00:00:18.404 We're doing tutorials and talking about the wonderful world of 00:00:18.404 --> 00:00:19.764 creating content and WordPress. 00:00:20.154 --> 00:00:21.415 Give us the, the backdrop. 00:00:21.415 --> 00:00:22.974 What, what do you do at MIUs? 00:00:23.470 --> 00:00:26.969 Laurence: So, at Freemius, I joined Freemius as a WordPress developer. 00:00:27.279 --> 00:00:30.049 I'm mainly working with the websites and so on. 00:00:31.409 --> 00:00:36.629 It's a dynamic place and you find yourself like doing different kinds of things. 00:00:36.639 --> 00:00:41.389 So you'll find yourself, trying out the support, find yourself, Besides 00:00:41.419 --> 00:00:44.419 doing the development, like working with the websites, then you're 00:00:44.909 --> 00:00:47.369 dealing like with the APIs and so on. 00:00:47.369 --> 00:00:50.509 So it's a very neat place if you want to grow. 00:00:50.589 --> 00:00:55.459 And that's how I found myself, jumping into, like the content team, even though. 00:00:55.764 --> 00:00:58.304 Initially I started out as a WordPress developer. 00:00:58.305 --> 00:01:02.644 Yeah. 00:01:02.664 --> 00:01:03.414 Matt: as well, right? 00:01:03.414 --> 00:01:05.454 It's youtube.com/at 00:01:05.544 --> 00:01:10.164 techie press, T-E-C-H-I-E press, seven and a half thousand 00:01:10.164 --> 00:01:11.905 subscribers, 200 something videos. 00:01:11.905 --> 00:01:14.005 I mean, you're no slouch on YouTube either. 00:01:14.054 --> 00:01:14.984 do you still do that? 00:01:14.984 --> 00:01:19.155 And, and did, did Vva look at you and go, oh wait, you do content too? 00:01:19.274 --> 00:01:19.455 Yeah. 00:01:19.455 --> 00:01:20.565 How about some of that over here? 00:01:21.414 --> 00:01:24.425 Laurence: So, I don't know whether I should be saying this, but, during one of, 00:01:24.445 --> 00:01:25.065 Matt: You can say it. 00:01:25.085 --> 00:01:26.545 You won't get in trouble from Vova. 00:01:26.565 --> 00:01:30.175 I know him very well, and if he says anything to you, just direct him 00:01:30.235 --> 00:01:30.494 Laurence: Yeah. 00:01:30.895 --> 00:01:35.804 So, one of the things that made my CV stand out when I was, applying 00:01:35.814 --> 00:01:37.975 at was the YouTube channel. 00:01:38.445 --> 00:01:40.975 Because they were able to go and see what I can do. 00:01:41.404 --> 00:01:46.655 And also just generally see who, like the type of person I was. 00:01:47.124 --> 00:01:51.675 Understanding what I'm doing or, like generally it was my portfolio. 00:01:52.274 --> 00:01:53.994 And that excited them. 00:01:54.415 --> 00:01:57.594 And right now it's been two years being at Freemius. 00:01:57.934 --> 00:02:02.775 So now is the time when I'm plugging into the content team, to help out. 00:02:04.619 --> 00:02:05.750 But unfortunately, 00:02:05.774 --> 00:02:06.205 Matt: made you, 00:02:06.869 --> 00:02:07.340 Laurence: oh, sorry. 00:02:08.965 --> 00:02:12.545 Matt: I was just gonna ask, what made you start your own personal YouTube channel? 00:02:12.545 --> 00:02:14.204 Like, why did you start doing content? 00:02:15.019 --> 00:02:20.229 Laurence: I love sharing knowledge, but I realized that many of the WordPress 00:02:20.279 --> 00:02:24.890 content creators in terms of, like development, most of them would come 00:02:24.890 --> 00:02:27.290 in and after some time sort of die out. 00:02:27.830 --> 00:02:31.840 So as a new developer, someone who wanted to learn, I found 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:33.340 that there was a big space. 00:02:33.390 --> 00:02:38.060 So I wanted to be able to just fill in, in there, and then also make content 00:02:38.090 --> 00:02:40.209 that would help other people generally. 00:02:42.435 --> 00:02:46.285 Matt: After 200, making 200 something videos, do you have any sense as 00:02:46.295 --> 00:02:51.305 to why those WordPress creators burn out or stop creating content? 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:53.740 Laurence: Yeah, it's the same old story. 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:57.460 you get a good, you get a good job, and there's a lot of demand. 00:02:57.850 --> 00:03:01.650 Maybe there are things that change in life, like family coming in. 00:03:02.010 --> 00:03:08.200 And so it's usually a responsibility that takes you away and it's a hard balance. 00:03:08.615 --> 00:03:13.045 Sometimes you make it, sometimes you realize, nah, I don't think it is for me. 00:03:14.340 --> 00:03:14.650 Matt: Yeah. 00:03:15.370 --> 00:03:21.190 Sometimes people will publish, you know, a hundred videos, 200 videos, and 00:03:21.190 --> 00:03:23.750 they only get a handful of subscribers. 00:03:23.750 --> 00:03:26.730 Maybe they only have a hundred, 200 subscribers and they're pulling their 00:03:26.730 --> 00:03:31.990 hair out going, my God, how much more do I have to do, you know, to sustain this? 00:03:32.310 --> 00:03:36.120 do you remember early on what it was like for you uploading YouTube videos? 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:37.360 Were you nervous? 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:38.570 Were you looking for an audience? 00:03:38.590 --> 00:03:40.940 How did you start, you know, growing your audience? 00:03:41.675 --> 00:03:47.115 Laurence: Vividly, I remember the first time I thought about, initially my first 00:03:47.125 --> 00:03:51.975 video was me teaching my son how to play the recorder, like his first notes. 00:03:52.405 --> 00:03:55.285 And then I realized, I don't think this is what I want to do. 00:03:56.405 --> 00:03:57.495 Something much better. 00:03:58.025 --> 00:04:00.055 So I started making YouTube videos. 00:04:00.055 --> 00:04:04.045 Sometimes I would be seated under a tree, make sure there's not so much 00:04:04.045 --> 00:04:07.705 noise, hit record, and then upload those. 00:04:08.075 --> 00:04:11.585 I gave me an adrenaline rush to see that they were always going up. 00:04:12.095 --> 00:04:16.435 yeah, eventually settled in and then started making longer form videos. 00:04:16.845 --> 00:04:18.075 I'm trying to. 00:04:18.280 --> 00:04:19.790 Get the quality right. 00:04:20.380 --> 00:04:23.650 and it's still a process that I'm undergoing really. 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:31.750 Matt: When you started out, creating the content, were you also, did you 00:04:31.750 --> 00:04:36.390 have like a full time job as well where you were developing or you freelancing? 00:04:36.400 --> 00:04:37.940 How did you balance that time? 00:04:37.940 --> 00:04:41.830 Because that's the other thing is it is such a time commitment. 00:04:41.840 --> 00:04:44.830 Nevermind just like the content commitment, but now you have to carve 00:04:44.830 --> 00:04:47.580 out many hours just to get one video out. 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:48.640 How did you balance the time? 00:04:49.060 --> 00:04:52.080 Laurence: So when I started the channel, I was a high school 00:04:52.080 --> 00:04:55.790 teacher teaching, information, communication and technology, ICT. 00:04:56.210 --> 00:04:56.950 so. 00:04:57.285 --> 00:05:02.315 In between that and coming home to my family, I, I had a young family. 00:05:02.865 --> 00:05:04.945 I just had to strike a balance. 00:05:05.325 --> 00:05:09.855 The thought was, you know what, if this hits big, maybe YouTube will be able to 00:05:09.895 --> 00:05:12.575 pay our rent, get her for some bills. 00:05:12.915 --> 00:05:15.875 so it was from that point of view. 00:05:16.985 --> 00:05:18.595 You never know what happens. 00:05:18.855 --> 00:05:24.225 as long as I'm happy, some people are also gaining from this because initially 00:05:24.455 --> 00:05:30.014 WordPress is what gave me the platform to sort of like start development and even 00:05:30.025 --> 00:05:32.685 get my job teaching at the high school. 00:05:32.744 --> 00:05:36.085 So I was thinking, you know what, somebody else could probably 00:05:36.085 --> 00:05:37.685 run the same risk that I am in. 00:05:38.165 --> 00:05:40.084 So it was a 50 50. 00:05:40.325 --> 00:05:43.905 Do good and you never know the universe will repay you. 00:05:46.020 --> 00:05:46.670 Matt: Yeah, that's great. 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.820 Were you teaching tech and WordPress at high school? 00:05:49.835 --> 00:05:50.974 How 00:05:51.575 --> 00:05:54.215 Laurence: it's a Cambridge education system. 00:05:54.225 --> 00:05:56.775 So they will look at developing websites. 00:05:56.784 --> 00:06:01.505 You'll do networking, tech, the whole shebang of I of, computing. 00:06:01.835 --> 00:06:06.515 So you get small fragments of everything, basically from grade four. 00:06:07.220 --> 00:06:12.120 Which is like year four of school till grade 12, which is, the next 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:13.470 class before you go to college. 00:06:15.955 --> 00:06:19.705 Matt: much did WordPress play a role in, in that education? 00:06:19.705 --> 00:06:23.915 Like when you shared it with students, how much of, of the 00:06:23.935 --> 00:06:25.955 curriculum was, was about WordPress? 00:06:26.840 --> 00:06:30.860 Laurence: It's the website development area. 00:06:31.220 --> 00:06:35.530 Because I want you to know a little bit of HTML, CSS, JavaScript. 00:06:35.530 --> 00:06:40.520 As a way of showing the real world implementation. 00:06:41.280 --> 00:06:45.290 I also experimented with the students how to use WordPress. 00:06:45.830 --> 00:06:50.790 Now, the funny thing is that our local curriculum, which is not Cambridge 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:53.510 right now, has a similar module. 00:06:53.980 --> 00:07:00.000 And their teachers, our local teachers association, is basically like, trying 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:03.260 to make sure that they all learn WordPress because it's an easier way. 00:07:03.580 --> 00:07:06.000 For developing websites, and it's a big thing. 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:09.280 So if you're big on social and you're following the Uganda, 00:07:09.700 --> 00:07:13.090 teachers association, you'll see that many of them are trying to 00:07:13.090 --> 00:07:15.590 get WordPress, to the students. 00:07:15.830 --> 00:07:19.910 there are a couple of guys who are trying to make sure that they have a thousand 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:21.970 WordPress ninjas in the next five years. 00:07:22.865 --> 00:07:23.225 So, yeah, 00:07:24.825 --> 00:07:29.565 Matt: The, one of the over things I always talk about, like when I talk about. 00:07:29.880 --> 00:07:34.340 You know, my, my love for WordPress and like why I've supported it for so long is 00:07:34.340 --> 00:07:38.950 that because it is one of those tools, and I don't want to talk about like what your 00:07:38.950 --> 00:07:42.780 opinion is on AI, everybody's sick and tired of me talking about it already, but 00:07:42.780 --> 00:07:46.920 I want to get your opinion on on AI and its impact, but one of the thing that's I 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:52.230 think is overlooked is WordPress, like if you want it, like, how did I learn how? 00:07:52.580 --> 00:07:56.060 Like car, like car, motors and engines in cars work. 00:07:56.150 --> 00:07:59.690 Well, I had like a moped with one cylinder and I took it apart and I 00:07:59.700 --> 00:08:05.210 learned how the cylinders fired with the spark plug and how gap fuel, you know, 00:08:05.760 --> 00:08:09.270 poured into the cylinder head and caused the combustion and I kind of learned 00:08:09.270 --> 00:08:11.100 all that stuff from, from a young age. 00:08:11.380 --> 00:08:14.830 And then, same thing, when I got into computers, I took apart a computer, I 00:08:14.830 --> 00:08:18.980 learned how a hard drive and connect it up to a motherboard and how CPUs and memory 00:08:18.980 --> 00:08:20.420 chips connect it to the motherboard. 00:08:20.840 --> 00:08:26.080 WordPress is that tangible thing for me that somebody can pick apart 00:08:26.140 --> 00:08:30.140 and understand here's the front end, here's the back end, here's 00:08:30.140 --> 00:08:33.950 the management, here's the admin, and because it's this complete. 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:34.940 Thing. 00:08:35.390 --> 00:08:39.760 I think it's a great place for people to, to learn, even if they don't 00:08:39.780 --> 00:08:43.400 use word, like even if your students didn't use WordPress after they left 00:08:43.400 --> 00:08:49.150 your, your school or your, your, your class, they could take that and, 00:08:49.150 --> 00:08:53.650 and, and understand how bits of the, of the web work is, is that a crazy 00:08:53.680 --> 00:08:54.824 thought or, or how do you see it? 00:08:56.485 --> 00:08:58.765 Laurence: I think you're right on the money. 00:08:58.865 --> 00:09:02.525 there are people who start out with WordPress and eventually, head out into 00:09:02.525 --> 00:09:08.115 the more traditional languages and even, go to greater heights of developing 00:09:08.435 --> 00:09:10.215 desktop systems and all of that. 00:09:10.675 --> 00:09:11.805 So it's a platform. 00:09:12.355 --> 00:09:18.735 Personally, that helped me learn more of PHP development and that's one of 00:09:18.745 --> 00:09:22.585 the skills that I really, really need when I'm doing my work at Freemius. 00:09:22.935 --> 00:09:26.825 besides the more web based, languages, I would say. 00:09:26.965 --> 00:09:27.145 Yeah. 00:09:27.615 --> 00:09:31.995 So it's a nice platform for you to springboard into your next career. 00:09:34.185 --> 00:09:37.755 Matt: One of your, well, I'm looking at your top, videos right now. 00:09:38.005 --> 00:09:43.195 Your top videos are custom WooCommerce payment gateways, setting up visual, VS 00:09:43.245 --> 00:09:47.075 code, right, for WordPress development, FTP sync and local development. 00:09:47.075 --> 00:09:48.735 A lot of it is, is dev. 00:09:49.390 --> 00:09:55.840 Heavy, whereas a lot of us in, the YouTube space are doing much more on, you 00:09:55.840 --> 00:09:57.870 know, here's this great plugin review. 00:09:57.880 --> 00:09:59.790 Here's this new theme that's being launched. 00:09:59.820 --> 00:10:00.500 I'm guilty of it. 00:10:00.500 --> 00:10:02.610 That's kind of the content that I do. 00:10:03.020 --> 00:10:06.330 but your, your content is much more methodical. 00:10:06.340 --> 00:10:09.610 How long did it take for you to make these more technical videos? 00:10:09.610 --> 00:10:13.850 Like a 30 minute video took you how long of 15 minute video took you? 00:10:13.860 --> 00:10:14.350 How long? 00:10:14.675 --> 00:10:19.225 Laurence: So relatively a 15 minutes video will take you about six hours. 00:10:19.880 --> 00:10:26.060 So take one, take two, take three, preparations, then go down to editing 00:10:26.060 --> 00:10:29.940 and cutting out what you don't like depending on your whole process. 00:10:30.170 --> 00:10:34.429 But you're looking at about four to six hours for you to just make a film. 00:10:35.880 --> 00:10:41.790 for the longer ones, the 30, what I did was record chunks and 00:10:41.790 --> 00:10:44.870 then keep on coming back and then patching everything together. 00:10:45.410 --> 00:10:50.980 So the longer 30 minutes videos would take you almost a whole day. 00:10:51.625 --> 00:10:52.255 To just do 00:10:52.380 --> 00:10:52.670 Matt: Yeah. 00:10:53.790 --> 00:10:54.090 Yeah. 00:10:54.790 --> 00:10:59.260 What, what tools were you using at the time, to make 00:10:59.260 --> 00:11:02.430 your content workflow easier? 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:05.110 you know, four or five years ago, were you just using like, 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:07.130 screen, Camtasia or ScreenFlow? 00:11:07.130 --> 00:11:10.090 Like what tools helped you get the videos out? 00:11:10.285 --> 00:11:14.825 Laurence: so initially I wasn't big on the tools to make things easier so 00:11:14.825 --> 00:11:20.975 I started out with OBS and then just clipped things with my iMovie and then 00:11:20.975 --> 00:11:25.315 eventually I moved on to using ScreenFlow. 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:29.650 managed to make a few savings from the channel about ScreenFlow, and 00:11:29.650 --> 00:11:33.600 I realized it was a better tool for me to record and then edit in one. 00:11:34.150 --> 00:11:34.370 Yeah. 00:11:34.370 --> 00:11:36.580 So that's, that's how I transitioned. 00:11:36.580 --> 00:11:41.219 Yeah. 00:11:41.225 --> 00:11:45.095 Matt: similar to WordPress when you can find the right tool to get that job done. 00:11:45.465 --> 00:11:48.735 ScreenFlow is the one that I still primarily use, although it's also one 00:11:48.735 --> 00:11:52.355 of the ones that I, it's like, when are you going to give us some new updates? 00:11:52.685 --> 00:11:56.675 Like, like this, this is, this is still kind of getting a little bit, you know, I 00:11:56.675 --> 00:11:58.845 feel like that average consumer now with. 00:11:59.050 --> 00:12:03.090 With ScreenFlow, I'm like, all these other places, I can do text to speech, I can 00:12:03.090 --> 00:12:07.300 edit with, I can edit the text and that'll edit the video, better transitions, 00:12:07.310 --> 00:12:11.480 like, there's so much other cool stuff happening in other apps, but I still go 00:12:11.490 --> 00:12:14.500 back to ScreenFlow at the end of the day, and I guess that's where they get me, 00:12:14.670 --> 00:12:17.300 it's they're just like, they know I'm going to come back to use it, because 00:12:17.300 --> 00:12:19.300 it is like the best editing experience. 00:12:20.070 --> 00:12:23.160 Laurence: if a tool is not broken, then why try to fix it? 00:12:23.610 --> 00:12:28.380 they nailed on the basics and all the newer, cool, shiny 00:12:28.380 --> 00:12:29.400 tools that are coming up. 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:34.560 are sort of trying to leverage AI as a topic. 00:12:35.490 --> 00:12:39.269 They don't give you that comfort and that confidence that I'm going 00:12:39.269 --> 00:12:45.460 to record 30 minutes straight and I'm going to have all my stuff. 00:12:46.400 --> 00:12:52.150 Autosaved on my computer and I can be able to recover them and then, do like 00:12:52.210 --> 00:12:55.170 more complex stuff, in terms of editing. 00:12:55.490 --> 00:12:59.840 Yeah, so ScreenFlow is like that nice balance between Adobe 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:02.940 Premiere Pro and ScreenFlow. 00:13:03.635 --> 00:13:04.445 For example, yeah, 00:13:05.110 --> 00:13:05.410 Matt: Yeah. 00:13:05.900 --> 00:13:06.180 Yeah, I 00:13:06.425 --> 00:13:07.085 Laurence: I mean screen 00:13:07.230 --> 00:13:08.060 Matt: So you're building up. 00:13:09.935 --> 00:13:10.075 Laurence: The 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:11.330 Matt: Oh, yeah, I use ScreenStudio as 00:13:11.565 --> 00:13:11.915 Laurence: studio. 00:13:11.915 --> 00:13:12.265 Yeah. 00:13:12.315 --> 00:13:12.535 Yeah. 00:13:13.525 --> 00:13:17.685 Matt: Yeah, just for short stuff because like short clips because if you're 00:13:17.695 --> 00:13:21.645 editing, this is getting inside baseball right now, but if you're editing, long 00:13:21.645 --> 00:13:26.425 form videos on the screen, so it's terrible, like trying to like find the 00:13:26.425 --> 00:13:28.665 thing and delete the zoom in and do it. 00:13:28.705 --> 00:13:31.615 It's like the timeline is just way too basic for long form videos. 00:13:32.245 --> 00:13:35.435 so years are going by, you're, you're uploading videos to 00:13:35.435 --> 00:13:36.905 your personal YouTube channel. 00:13:36.915 --> 00:13:38.775 How did you find Freemius? 00:13:38.805 --> 00:13:41.175 I mean, we already hinted at what you do at Freemius, but how did 00:13:41.175 --> 00:13:43.305 you find Vova and team at Freemius? 00:13:43.305 --> 00:13:44.855 Did, did they notice your content? 00:13:44.865 --> 00:13:47.155 Did they, did you use that as leverage to get the job? 00:13:47.165 --> 00:13:48.185 How did that all come together? 00:13:49.165 --> 00:13:49.465 Laurence: No. 00:13:49.465 --> 00:13:53.025 So, after COVID hit, I left high school teaching. 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:58.360 And sort of continued my freelancing, but then I realized I wasn't making ends meet. 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:02.460 And, Freemius was looking for a WordPress developer. 00:14:02.500 --> 00:14:04.110 It was right there on their website. 00:14:04.520 --> 00:14:08.680 so I just submitted my CV and hoped things would go well. 00:14:08.990 --> 00:14:11.220 And yep, they gave me a call. 00:14:13.230 --> 00:14:13.800 It was just 00:14:13.925 --> 00:14:15.995 Matt: Was it Vova that, was it Vova that called you? 00:14:17.185 --> 00:14:21.835 Laurence: yeah, so I got an, an email from him and at that time he was still 00:14:21.835 --> 00:14:27.435 doing the, the first like meetup face to face and we got to just talk and, 00:14:28.015 --> 00:14:32.405 of course they talked to my references, but I think they liked what they had 00:14:32.435 --> 00:14:36.995 and then they said, Hey, would you be happy to do a technical interview? 00:14:37.095 --> 00:14:41.295 And that's how things moved until eventually got in. 00:14:41.405 --> 00:14:41.565 Yep. 00:14:42.940 --> 00:14:46.830 Matt: Yeah, and so you leveraged all of like your development stuff that you 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:51.450 had been learning and and teaching other people Over on the YouTube channel. 00:14:51.800 --> 00:14:53.790 What kinds of things were you? 00:14:54.050 --> 00:14:59.410 Challenged with when you first started Freemius it has a pretty what 00:14:59.410 --> 00:15:01.130 I'll call a complex product right? 00:15:01.130 --> 00:15:05.000 I mean API's license keys your You're, you're distributing software. 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:06.580 There's payments, there's all this stuff. 00:15:06.580 --> 00:15:07.980 There's reporting on that data. 00:15:08.230 --> 00:15:10.910 It's not a, you know, small plugin, at least in my opinion. 00:15:11.150 --> 00:15:13.380 What kind of challenges did you have when you first started 00:15:13.380 --> 00:15:14.890 and how did you overcome them? 00:15:15.300 --> 00:15:19.880 Laurence: So I got in as a WordPress developer and my first task was to work 00:15:19.880 --> 00:15:24.560 with, the website and at that moment, at that particular time, Freemius 00:15:24.580 --> 00:15:26.470 needed to revamp its whole blog. 00:15:26.790 --> 00:15:31.470 so that's the first thing that I worked with, working with existing data and 00:15:31.470 --> 00:15:33.890 just writing like, a theme over that. 00:15:34.410 --> 00:15:37.160 Now that was the time when we were divided, really 00:15:37.180 --> 00:15:38.960 deciding whether should we go. 00:15:39.415 --> 00:15:44.005 Gutenberg, or should we keep things classic editor and so on. 00:15:44.465 --> 00:15:48.385 So the challenge was in there, like deciding whether you want to 00:15:49.065 --> 00:15:52.735 like dive into this new tool that's available, how long is it going to 00:15:52.735 --> 00:15:56.115 take you to come up with a final product at the end of the day? 00:15:56.515 --> 00:16:00.454 but eventually we came up with a solution and we have a nice looking 00:16:00.454 --> 00:16:01.794 blog, I would say right now. 00:16:02.319 --> 00:16:02.519 Yeah. 00:16:03.069 --> 00:16:03.339 Matt: Yeah. 00:16:04.449 --> 00:16:09.339 How much has, yeah, we'll bring, we'll go, we'll go into the bigger topic, 00:16:09.339 --> 00:16:13.159 which is like the, like the AI or the big topic of, of the end of the year, I 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:17.629 guess, which is like AI and how that's impacting, WordPress development. 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:20.289 Has AI started to impact you? 00:16:20.319 --> 00:16:22.609 Are you leveraging AI for anything? 00:16:22.689 --> 00:16:25.689 what are your thoughts on AI and developing with WordPress? 00:16:25.779 --> 00:16:30.029 Laurence: Definitely, AI is a, like a time saver, I would say. 00:16:30.029 --> 00:16:34.699 I'm using it, mainly with, tools like Copilot and then, of course, 00:16:34.729 --> 00:16:37.039 ChatGPT, asking a few questions here. 00:16:37.449 --> 00:16:43.684 So in the olden days, you had to scour, The whole WordPress documentation just 00:16:43.694 --> 00:16:48.044 to find one little function that's going to help you solve something. 00:16:48.414 --> 00:16:48.614 But, 00:16:49.089 --> 00:16:53.139 Matt: Hold on, I want to, you said olden days, which was like six months ago. 00:16:55.914 --> 00:16:58.024 Laurence: yeah, I'm trying to be like a gen Z here. 00:16:58.324 --> 00:17:02.594 But, yeah, you needed to like scour the whole documentation and there 00:17:02.604 --> 00:17:04.505 are some hidden gems in there. 00:17:05.095 --> 00:17:08.335 But AI is trained on all this content. 00:17:08.775 --> 00:17:10.135 So it knows the right tool. 00:17:10.135 --> 00:17:11.725 You'll just give it your scenario. 00:17:12.130 --> 00:17:14.460 And then it will give you the tool, go read about that 00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:16.380 documentation and say, this is it. 00:17:17.230 --> 00:17:21.210 So I don't have to go to stack overflow and read like five different 00:17:21.249 --> 00:17:24.570 articles to get that one solution. 00:17:25.159 --> 00:17:28.259 just to, just to start off my whole journey with, developing 00:17:28.259 --> 00:17:29.289 a particular feature. 00:17:29.469 --> 00:17:29.659 Yeah. 00:17:31.579 --> 00:17:32.689 Matt: How do you feel about that? 00:17:33.329 --> 00:17:38.889 How do you feel that the answers are so direct in terms of like coding, 00:17:38.899 --> 00:17:40.529 which I guess is a technical thing. 00:17:40.529 --> 00:17:42.489 It's almost, well, I guess. 00:17:42.994 --> 00:17:46.734 Season developers might argue this point, but it's like, it's either on, it's either 00:17:46.734 --> 00:17:50.074 on or it's off, I guess, you could say, like, it's gonna work for me or it's not, 00:17:50.074 --> 00:17:52.674 but I guess there's nuance in that, it's like, how much code is it giving you, et 00:17:52.674 --> 00:17:57.834 cetera, et cetera, but how do you feel about that directness, versus, if you were 00:17:57.834 --> 00:18:02.314 younger, and you were just starting out, some of that exploration of going to 18 00:18:02.684 --> 00:18:06.629 places, Actually, it was kind of useful. 00:18:06.659 --> 00:18:11.059 It was terrible for time, but you, you saw a lot more. 00:18:11.059 --> 00:18:13.979 And I feel like you maybe stumbled around and found some other 00:18:13.979 --> 00:18:15.439 things that you didn't know about. 00:18:15.869 --> 00:18:20.739 And I think that that's what's going away with these direct responses from ChatGBT. 00:18:20.739 --> 00:18:22.799 Again, no direct question, but do you have any thoughts on 00:18:23.029 --> 00:18:23.289 Laurence: Yeah. 00:18:24.069 --> 00:18:24.089 Yeah. 00:18:24.504 --> 00:18:29.624 I always believe that in the information edge that we're in, things are not hidden, 00:18:29.824 --> 00:18:31.854 like everything is right in front of you. 00:18:32.424 --> 00:18:37.604 but if you, unless you tell chatGBT not to explain the solution and you just say, 00:18:37.614 --> 00:18:44.044 give me the solution, it's going to pour out all the reasons of why A is so, and 00:18:44.054 --> 00:18:46.374 why do we go to B, and why do we go to C. 00:18:46.854 --> 00:18:50.574 So, you end up learning the basics of a particular thing. 00:18:50.584 --> 00:18:52.374 Let's say you're starting to learn HTML. 00:18:52.814 --> 00:18:55.564 It will explain why you need to have the body, why you need to have 00:18:55.564 --> 00:18:59.634 the head, and why particular things are in this particular section. 00:19:00.014 --> 00:19:03.884 So you end up learning the basics, just like in traditional school. 00:19:04.364 --> 00:19:07.524 so unless you're going advanced user on it. 00:19:08.269 --> 00:19:11.559 Then you're still going to get your traditional teacher in 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:13.329 front of your classroom block. 00:19:14.634 --> 00:19:14.954 Matt: Yeah. 00:19:15.654 --> 00:19:19.014 I was thinking to myself, you know, when I first started to see AI come 00:19:19.014 --> 00:19:23.574 onto the scene, I was like, man, if I was in school, if I was still in 00:19:23.574 --> 00:19:28.654 high school and nobody knew about ChatGPT, I'd be passing every class 00:19:28.914 --> 00:19:31.664 with, you know, with straight A's. 00:19:32.054 --> 00:19:36.654 So as the teacher, inside of you, the one who actually, you know, taught, 00:19:36.954 --> 00:19:41.044 other students, how does that make you feel like AI in the classroom? 00:19:41.074 --> 00:19:42.154 Is it a good thing? 00:19:42.174 --> 00:19:42.994 A bad thing? 00:19:43.004 --> 00:19:46.914 How do you see it from that teacher's perspective of like truly understanding? 00:19:47.379 --> 00:19:48.329 a particular topic. 00:19:48.330 --> 00:19:49.729 Mm. 00:19:49.729 --> 00:19:51.129 Mm 00:19:51.169 --> 00:19:53.589 Laurence: is brilliant to use in a classroom. 00:19:53.629 --> 00:19:58.459 I don't think we should shy away from it Let me give you a scenario if you 00:19:58.469 --> 00:20:04.189 had your friend flip their paper and show you the answers It is sort of a 00:20:04.189 --> 00:20:06.529 similar situation with using, using AI. 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.659 So you're just copying off the answers and then dropping them 00:20:09.659 --> 00:20:11.499 into your own paper, right? 00:20:12.189 --> 00:20:12.539 Matt: hmm. 00:20:12.649 --> 00:20:17.309 Laurence: If I'm using, let's say chat GPT, and I'm learning about algebra 00:20:17.719 --> 00:20:21.529 and say, can you give me like 10 different questions for me to practice? 00:20:22.339 --> 00:20:25.609 about algebra, and this is like a sample question I had. 00:20:26.179 --> 00:20:30.199 It will be able to generate for you ten different questions that you can 00:20:30.199 --> 00:20:32.449 put in a question for your students. 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:35.389 it can be nice practice for the students. 00:20:35.909 --> 00:20:42.039 And it can even model different scenarios that would be out of the ordinary. 00:20:42.424 --> 00:20:43.304 For the student. 00:20:44.074 --> 00:20:51.314 So it can be used for both good and bad, but for most cases, when I've looked at 00:20:51.324 --> 00:20:56.404 how people using AI to cheat their way into stuff, eventually they get caught. 00:20:57.674 --> 00:21:00.534 It's up to you to just say, you know what, let me use it for good. 00:21:00.535 --> 00:21:02.360 Mm hmm. 00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:03.272 Mm 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:03.589 Matt: sense. 00:21:04.009 --> 00:21:07.389 My, I have three young boys, eight, six and five. 00:21:07.719 --> 00:21:12.209 And, my middle son, came home with his English homework the other day. 00:21:12.589 --> 00:21:15.039 And, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's on paper. 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:16.499 It's, you know, they call her stuff in. 00:21:16.499 --> 00:21:17.549 I mean, he's, he's young, right? 00:21:17.549 --> 00:21:20.909 So it's just like, here's the 12 or 18 words, whatever it was that 00:21:20.909 --> 00:21:22.239 they're focused on this week. 00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:28.409 And, he didn't, getting him to do stuff on paper and like cut the 00:21:28.409 --> 00:21:29.909 paper out and put the words together. 00:21:29.929 --> 00:21:32.319 It's just, it's a very difficult task. 00:21:32.899 --> 00:21:35.899 so what I did is I was able to 00:21:37.929 --> 00:21:42.929 a bolt, which is a front end sort of, you know, take human 00:21:42.929 --> 00:21:44.269 words and build an app with it. 00:21:44.639 --> 00:21:45.799 And I built him. 00:21:46.284 --> 00:21:50.834 Like a little game that he could play with those 12 words and it was all like 00:21:50.834 --> 00:21:56.394 built in react had sound effects It was fun for for a kid to play with those 00:21:56.414 --> 00:21:59.154 kinds of things are truly amazing, right? 00:21:59.154 --> 00:22:02.754 That's really shifting and I totally agree with you It's like leaning 00:22:02.754 --> 00:22:06.744 into that stuff for AI is just like it's mind blowing to what what you 00:22:06.804 --> 00:22:07.984 what we can do with it right now 00:22:08.044 --> 00:22:08.264 Laurence: Yeah. 00:22:08.594 --> 00:22:12.654 So I think teachers can also just ask AI, I'm teaching this topic. 00:22:12.654 --> 00:22:15.414 How can I be very creative about it? 00:22:15.734 --> 00:22:17.104 And it would give you solutions. 00:22:17.584 --> 00:22:22.324 I think there's much more that we can dig from it and utilize. 00:22:23.954 --> 00:22:29.084 Matt: Yeah What's the future for WordPress and ai? 00:22:29.214 --> 00:22:33.384 one of the things that I've been thinking about is, you know, you could 00:22:33.384 --> 00:22:37.284 look at it and say, well, just build me a, you know, hey cursor or co-pilot, 00:22:37.374 --> 00:22:39.174 build me a WordPress alternative. 00:22:41.064 --> 00:22:44.814 , what's your thoughts on the existence of the sustainability, the future 00:22:44.814 --> 00:22:49.434 of WordPress in a world where AI seemingly could do what WordPress does? 00:22:50.044 --> 00:22:52.794 Laurence: So it depends from what angle you're coming from. 00:22:52.844 --> 00:22:56.964 If you are a developer, I don't think AI will ever replace developers. 00:22:57.664 --> 00:23:02.264 For starters, okay, it can throw out some code, but in most cases 00:23:02.284 --> 00:23:04.034 that code needs to be refined. 00:23:04.464 --> 00:23:09.404 AI is very open sided, like it's not opinionated in how 00:23:09.404 --> 00:23:10.754 you do particular things. 00:23:11.114 --> 00:23:15.814 So as a developer, you'll need to sit in and think through the solution, 00:23:16.144 --> 00:23:18.114 find the best way to optimize it. 00:23:18.524 --> 00:23:19.264 so developer. 00:23:19.704 --> 00:23:21.524 site covered. 00:23:21.674 --> 00:23:24.924 They're never going to go out of fashion or out of need. 00:23:25.584 --> 00:23:30.404 If you're looking at it as a content creator, still in order for you to 00:23:30.414 --> 00:23:35.474 make, diverse content, like you're writing a blog, you cannot depend on 00:23:35.484 --> 00:23:38.584 your solely on AI to give you that full. 00:23:39.099 --> 00:23:43.879 300 words that's going to take someone's soul, like it doesn't take 00:23:43.879 --> 00:23:48.299 away the creativity that the human mind has, but it can give you a basis. 00:23:48.499 --> 00:23:49.329 Yeah, exactly. 00:23:49.629 --> 00:23:55.019 that's for the content creators, but I also see it, giving us nice visuals. 00:23:55.089 --> 00:23:59.489 Like if, in places right now, people are using it to do like. 00:23:59.969 --> 00:24:04.459 Text to speech and, graphics from that particular text. 00:24:04.769 --> 00:24:09.729 So there's a nice balance to it, that we can have. 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:11.469 yeah, that's it. 00:24:13.244 --> 00:24:13.544 Matt: Yeah. 00:24:14.114 --> 00:24:17.304 Has, you know, you don't have to give us all the secret sauce at Freemius, 00:24:17.324 --> 00:24:21.324 but is Freemius doing anything with AI, for, for front end customers 00:24:21.324 --> 00:24:24.264 that customers can interact with AI at any level of, at Freemius? 00:24:24.719 --> 00:24:25.119 Laurence: Yeah. 00:24:25.219 --> 00:24:26.849 we've trained. 00:24:27.095 --> 00:24:31.835 we have a bot that we've trained with our documentation so that in, in, in any case, 00:24:31.835 --> 00:24:36.305 if you want to, to find a particular, like you have a particular question, the 00:24:36.325 --> 00:24:41.085 AI will provide you with like resources that you can read right in there. 00:24:41.135 --> 00:24:44.455 And all we need to do is just make our documentation better. 00:24:45.044 --> 00:24:47.685 And that means people will be served much, much better. 00:24:50.525 --> 00:24:52.914 Matt: What product feature are you working on these days? 00:24:52.915 --> 00:24:55.044 I mean, I know we just talked about the content stuff, but what are 00:24:55.044 --> 00:24:58.055 you doing that people will see when they're interacting with Freemius? 00:24:58.165 --> 00:25:02.845 What can they either praise you on or yell at you about when they 00:25:02.865 --> 00:25:04.455 interact with, with Freemius? 00:25:04.605 --> 00:25:04.685 Thanks. 00:25:04.685 --> 00:25:04.995 Thanks. 00:25:05.125 --> 00:25:07.775 Laurence: I think I have something for you. 00:25:08.095 --> 00:25:11.565 You have been a big proponent for data liberation. 00:25:11.985 --> 00:25:16.695 That's something, Matt has talked about and recently we have been making sure 00:25:16.695 --> 00:25:21.835 that people can be able to export whatever kind of data they have on Freemius. 00:25:22.255 --> 00:25:26.675 And we've been progressively, doing that for the different sections that we have. 00:25:27.065 --> 00:25:27.615 So. 00:25:27.985 --> 00:25:31.295 Interesting thing is, one of, the, the, the people that are using Freemius 00:25:31.345 --> 00:25:37.445 the other day just developed a chat GPT bot that is using that data and 00:25:37.455 --> 00:25:39.085 they're doing crazy stuff with it. 00:25:39.495 --> 00:25:45.765 So, yeah, data liberation is one thing that we've really, really, put a pedal 00:25:45.825 --> 00:25:48.840 on besides the bug fixes and all of that. 00:25:50.095 --> 00:25:51.175 Matt: Yeah, that's fantastic. 00:25:51.175 --> 00:25:55.545 Yeah, I mean obviously whenever it comes to any kind of Like, e commerce 00:25:55.555 --> 00:26:00.135 platform, you know, connecting up, you know, your payment, to a system. 00:26:00.455 --> 00:26:02.375 And it's like a platform play. 00:26:02.375 --> 00:26:05.145 There's, there's always that hesitancy from people to be like, 00:26:05.195 --> 00:26:06.585 Oh God, I gotta connect this up. 00:26:06.905 --> 00:26:10.235 it's gonna have all my data and, you know, am I gonna be able to move this stuff 00:26:10.235 --> 00:26:11.715 from, you know, one platform to the next? 00:26:11.715 --> 00:26:14.545 And it's great to hear that, that you all, are investing. 00:26:14.770 --> 00:26:15.630 In that stuff. 00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:18.370 Lawrence Bahari, thanks for hanging out today. 00:26:18.380 --> 00:26:20.600 Where else can folks go to say thanks? 00:26:20.610 --> 00:26:22.360 Where can they go to meet you online? 00:26:22.360 --> 00:26:23.230 Where do you want them to go? 00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:27.010 Laurence: So I have a very old blog that I last posted on 00:26:27.460 --> 00:26:30.380 eons ago, which is omchigai. 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:35.760 com, but I spend a lot of my free time on Twitter, just reading about what 00:26:35.760 --> 00:26:39.610 people are developing and occasionally sharing a joke here and there. 00:26:40.590 --> 00:26:43.570 And of course, newly on a blue sky. 00:26:45.350 --> 00:26:46.120 Matt: Yeah, fantastic. 00:26:46.120 --> 00:26:47.240 That's where we connected. 00:26:47.250 --> 00:26:48.750 I'll have all that stuff in the show notes. 00:26:48.750 --> 00:26:51.769 And don't forget to check out, Lawrence's YouTube channel, youtube. 00:26:51.769 --> 00:26:56.209 com slash at techie press and all of his work at Freemius. 00:26:56.210 --> 00:26:57.700 So WP minutes, the WP minute. 00:26:57.700 --> 00:26:58.690 com slash subscribe. 00:26:58.710 --> 00:27:02.590 It's the number one way to stay connected and we'll see you in the next episode.