WEBVTT 00:00:01.431 --> 00:00:10.631 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. 00:00:11.018 --> 00:00:19.255 I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have honest, uncut conversations about faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:19.417 --> 00:00:26.617 So we're recording this on a beautiful afternoon, and we were just sitting down and we were 00:00:26.617 --> 00:00:32.897 We're just talking about a question that a friend of mine asked the other day and I thought 00:00:32.897 --> 00:00:39.780 would be interesting, maybe fruitful conversation for us to wrestle with. 00:00:40.337 --> 00:00:44.217 And you can tell what kind of friends I hang out with by the fact that he asked this question. 00:00:44.217 --> 00:00:47.657 Yeah, I'm curious as to the context in which he asked it. 00:00:47.657 --> 00:00:56.217 It's like you guys were, if he was offering a, was he offering a suggestion for the podcast 00:00:56.217 --> 00:01:02.457 or is this just like your regular… No, this is just our regular conversation. I think we were talking about like. 00:01:05.177 --> 00:01:13.657 He's very interested in the intersection of theology and social issues and we're both 00:01:13.657 --> 00:01:20.377 kind of wrestling with like, what do we do when we're confronted with these difficult situations, 00:01:21.110 --> 00:01:26.556 where being faithful to God isn't as clear as quoting a Bible verse and things like that. 00:01:28.789 --> 00:01:33.097 And so he kind of posed this question that I thought we would sit with and answer, 00:01:34.784 --> 00:01:44.777 is what is perhaps, in your opinion, right, the most neglected or not talked about or not 00:01:44.777 --> 00:01:54.137 understood theological concept or area that the church is lacking from in current times. 00:01:56.426 --> 00:02:03.737 So, it's kind of a dense question, but it's kind of saying, what is maybe a theological concept 00:02:03.737 --> 00:02:13.737 that we've misunderstood or we've not talked about that is wreaking havoc in maybe our lives, 00:02:13.737 --> 00:02:19.577 in our churches because we don't have a robust or significant understanding of it. 00:02:23.091 --> 00:02:27.808 Boy, it's like a big question. 00:02:30.141 --> 00:02:36.225 It is. I mean, I would say off the cuff, there are a few things that I consistently encounter. 00:02:43.141 --> 00:02:48.701 I don't, some of them are very broad. Some of them I think are really broad. 00:02:48.701 --> 00:02:55.922 Others of them I think are really, really specific. A really specific one that I encounter a lot, 00:02:58.301 --> 00:03:02.917 is a misunderstanding around the responsibility. 00:03:06.981 --> 00:03:08.660 Or call to forgive. 00:03:11.681 --> 00:03:18.716 And the, I wouldn't even say pretty much, I wouldn't even say pretty much. 00:03:19.061 --> 00:03:27.493 I would say the objective witness of the New Testament, especially with Jesus, 00:03:28.741 --> 00:03:33.290 that forgiveness is a non-negotiable part, 00:03:37.141 --> 00:03:43.661 of our posture towards the world and posture towards people. 00:03:43.661 --> 00:03:56.761 And that our forgiveness of others is directly linked to God's forgiveness of us in two ways. 00:03:56.761 --> 00:04:05.801 One is that we have capacity to forgive because we have been forgiven, 00:04:05.801 --> 00:04:07.121 not because we want to forgive. 00:04:08.241 --> 00:04:22.614 We have capacity to forgive because we've been forgiven. The other way is that our reception of forgiveness from God will be in equal measure. 00:04:23.811 --> 00:04:31.665 To our forgiveness of others. For if you do not forgive your brother for their sins, 00:04:31.665 --> 00:04:33.704 your Heavenly Father will not forgive you. 00:04:33.785 --> 00:04:40.069 Those, that's the words of Jesus, folks. Like, it, you know, that was not a parable. 00:04:40.545 --> 00:04:45.065 That was not like a mysterious saying. That was not, get your decoder ring out 00:04:45.065 --> 00:04:47.352 and figure out what Jesus really meant there. 00:04:47.705 --> 00:04:49.098 Can't really get more clear. 00:04:49.505 --> 00:04:52.905 Well, as you're talking about it, and I've thought this before, 00:04:52.905 --> 00:04:58.281 but it's hitting even more clear in my mind right now is just that it's embedded in the Lord's prayer. 00:04:58.865 --> 00:05:05.025 100%. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us. 00:05:05.025 --> 00:05:10.425 The assumption is that like, I don't know, there's probably some study on that as we forgive, 00:05:10.425 --> 00:05:15.665 like is that in proportion to or- In the same way that you- In the same way in which I do, right? 00:05:15.665 --> 00:05:21.305 But the idea, the concept is embedded in there. If I'm saying to the Lord in the prayer 00:05:21.305 --> 00:05:28.222 that he taught us to say to him, forgive me in the same way in which I forgive other people, 00:05:28.425 --> 00:05:30.275 how forgiven am I gonna be at the end of that? 00:05:31.157 --> 00:05:41.565 Right, right. So for clarity's sake, just like you're encountering people or this idea of like, I just don't wanna forgive, I don't have to. 00:05:41.565 --> 00:05:49.945 Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of times a unapologetic, active withholding of forgiveness 00:05:49.945 --> 00:05:54.945 because it's too big, the thing that they've done is too big. 00:05:55.945 --> 00:06:03.545 It's too serious, or I don't feel like forgiving yet, I don't have forgiving feelings towards them. 00:06:04.705 --> 00:06:09.705 Or they haven't apologized yet, so I'm not. 00:06:09.865 --> 00:06:13.525 Or apologized well enough. Right, so I'm not gonna forgive them yet. 00:06:13.525 --> 00:06:18.525 Or just, I don't want to, I don't have to. 00:06:21.665 --> 00:06:27.925 I refuse, like a spiritual three-year-old having a temper tantrum on the floor. 00:06:29.565 --> 00:06:37.145 I mean, I said that kind of tongue-in-cheek, but now that you extrapolate that out a little bit, like forgiveness is. 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:47.229 Forgiveness is, I guess, I don't know if I would call it the milk of spiritual life, or a milk product 00:06:47.229 --> 00:06:49.429 of spiritual life, or if it's more like the meat and potatoes. 00:06:49.429 --> 00:06:56.109 All right, farmer. Yeah. But, you know, it's like, so yeah, I would say that there, 00:06:56.629 --> 00:07:03.429 it's wrapped up in a lot of those things, like just a willful hardness towards forgiving, 00:07:06.029 --> 00:07:10.089 like just not gonna do it. I'm like thinking there are just so many passages, 00:07:10.335 --> 00:07:17.809 like there's the parable that Jesus teaches of like the, who like went of the forgiving servants. 00:07:18.289 --> 00:07:22.609 Unmerciful servant. Unmerciful servant. Matthew 18, yeah. Right, like all of that. 00:07:22.609 --> 00:07:27.502 Like his, the woman who washed his feet and all of that. 00:07:31.209 --> 00:07:37.909 And like he's like, you know, who loved the master more? you know, the one who is forgiven more, right? 00:07:38.009 --> 00:07:43.689 She loves much because she's been forgiven much, like, and then we can go to 1 John, right? 00:07:43.689 --> 00:07:46.529 And all of, in 1 John, it's like all of this understanding 00:07:46.677 --> 00:07:53.267 of being in the light, receiving God's forgiveness, and then love and forgiveness flowing out of it. 00:07:53.489 --> 00:07:58.128 It's, the, I think that like your, 00:08:00.449 --> 00:08:09.849 someone's incapacity to forgive, not that it's easy, but that forgiveness becomes more reasonable, 00:08:12.469 --> 00:08:23.849 and more doable when we have wrestled with our own sin. Yeah, and I think the biblical witness supports this 00:08:24.109 --> 00:08:30.349 is that it is virtually impossible to come to a true place of forgiveness 00:08:30.349 --> 00:08:34.848 without first having reckoned the immensity of our own sin 00:08:35.089 --> 00:08:40.089 and the immensity of God's forgiveness of it. 00:08:42.749 --> 00:08:47.129 Do you, so I wonder if this is the other side of the pendulum here. 00:08:47.129 --> 00:08:51.880 Like I seem to remember like in years past. 00:08:54.929 --> 00:08:59.856 That there is a significant amount of like preaching, teaching, and clarification. 00:09:01.189 --> 00:09:11.119 Over what forgiveness is not, like, forgiveness is not like, you know, so like... 00:09:11.451 --> 00:09:13.039 Letting someone step all over you. 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:18.479 Letting someone step all over you, forgiveness is not going back to the way things were, 00:09:18.479 --> 00:09:24.559 or forgiveness is not like, you know, like, and we can think of like tons of examples of that 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:30.559 where, you know, people have been kind of told to forgive just perpetually, but then there's never 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:37.159 any consequences and people who, you know, churches get called out for this all the 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:43.459 time when like a pastor fails or does something and then they don't, they don't 00:09:43.459 --> 00:09:48.339 seemingly, according to everyone else's opinion, judge them harsh enough or 00:09:48.339 --> 00:09:53.459 punish them harsh enough. And there's this, there's this arguing over all of 00:09:53.459 --> 00:09:58.099 that. Now that was the, I feel like that was the other side of that. Do you feel 00:09:58.099 --> 00:10:03.052 like that's led to this other extreme where now people are more. 00:10:04.739 --> 00:10:09.739 We've, we've lost one type of bad type of forgiveness and we've gotten another. 00:10:09.739 --> 00:10:11.739 Or do you feel like those are two connected or? 00:10:11.779 --> 00:10:17.939 Well, I think they're connected. It feels a little bit like those messages that are kind of trying to make an 00:10:18.379 --> 00:10:23.379 argument for what forgiveness is not really like walking a tightrope of escaping 00:10:23.379 --> 00:10:31.509 are like walking a tightrope of escaping the hard responsibility of forgiveness. 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:40.899 Because even things like, oh, you know, well, forgiveness doesn't mean that I just have to like lay down. 00:10:40.899 --> 00:10:46.759 I can think I can make a pretty good case from the New Testament that actually like 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:51.917 laying down our life, even to the point of, like, 00:10:53.420 --> 00:11:01.930 in the midst of false accusation, in the midst of our laying down our own goals, dreams. 00:11:03.590 --> 00:11:09.129 Visions, hopes, plans for the future in humble service to others, 00:11:10.350 --> 00:11:14.730 I think I can make a pretty strong biblical case there. 00:11:14.730 --> 00:11:27.570 So to say that, oh, forgiveness is all these things, is all these things, but it's definitely not allowing someone to trample all over you or 00:11:27.570 --> 00:11:35.650 anything like that. I think there's other reasons based out of wisdom, but I don't think it's a 00:11:35.650 --> 00:11:39.836 place. I don't think it comes from the biblical argument. It comes from a place of like, well, 00:11:40.090 --> 00:11:47.570 we can forgive but there's all like we can make these exceptions for like the 00:11:47.570 --> 00:11:55.970 merit of our forgiveness certainly like I wouldn't like I wouldn't recommend, 00:11:56.769 --> 00:12:07.290 that you know you take someone of an extreme case and it's not extreme for some people for some people's their their reality but like you take a case 00:12:07.290 --> 00:12:12.290 that is very intense, like an abusive marriage. 00:12:13.081 --> 00:12:19.090 And you say, okay, you say to the spouse who has been abused. 00:12:23.353 --> 00:12:40.607 It is important that you forgive. I would not mean that to say that your forgiveness necessitates the continuation of the relationship. 00:12:40.607 --> 00:12:51.167 But I would still say you need to forgive. you need to forgive because it is an unburdening of your soul 00:12:51.167 --> 00:12:55.320 for what's been done to you. It's the only way to unburden your soul. 00:12:59.367 --> 00:13:07.041 But I think that that, but saying that, OK, the relationship doesn't need to continue or shouldn't continue, 00:13:07.727 --> 00:13:16.887 is something that's based in wisdom and based in, you know, you make, certainly make arguments for it, 00:13:16.887 --> 00:13:21.840 like based in the, like protecting the, 00:13:23.607 --> 00:13:26.044 protecting the weak, protecting the victim. 00:13:28.607 --> 00:13:35.707 And advocating for them. But, you know, a lot of, a lot of that language around, 00:13:37.287 --> 00:13:39.062 you know, what forgiveness is not, 00:13:39.327 --> 00:13:45.847 I feel like there's just a lot of spiritual inference going on. 00:13:45.847 --> 00:13:53.287 We're inferring that this is what it doesn't mean, but it's not explicit. 00:13:53.287 --> 00:14:03.487 And so, we have to rely a little bit on wisdom, but it's not always necessarily super explicit. 00:14:03.487 --> 00:14:09.167 I don't know where I would make the argument of like, well, you know, biblically speaking, 00:14:09.167 --> 00:14:12.244 forgiveness doesn't mean that you can't have boundaries. 00:14:13.693 --> 00:14:14.108 Uh-huh. 00:14:15.620 --> 00:14:22.190 Say that again. Like you know how sometimes we say like, okay, we can forgive them, but then if like, 00:14:23.560 --> 00:14:28.190 maybe it's not necessarily an abusive relationship, but like maybe an acquaintance or a person who 00:14:28.190 --> 00:14:32.670 continually sins against you, right? And you need to forgive them, right? And you forgive them. 00:14:33.606 --> 00:14:40.110 But then you set up a boundary so that they can no longer hurt you or they can no longer sin 00:14:40.110 --> 00:14:44.030 against you. And that way, maybe you break off from relationship, you're not really acquaintances 00:14:44.030 --> 00:14:49.390 or friends anymore, you know, spend time together, whatever. I think that that is a something that 00:14:49.390 --> 00:14:56.510 someone can do out of wisdom. But I don't know that it's something that I would be like, well, 00:14:56.510 --> 00:15:01.550 here's chapter and verse for why the boundary can be set and you can feel okay with it. 00:15:01.550 --> 00:15:06.430 No, yeah, I think I agree with what you're saying there. There is definitely a, 00:15:06.430 --> 00:15:14.750 I think that does mostly come out of wisdom. You could maybe make an argument out of, I don't know. 00:15:15.062 --> 00:15:21.230 Kind of reflecting on what love is, what friendship is, right? Like if it's a friend 00:15:21.230 --> 00:15:29.630 who is continually sinning against you, is that a friend? Right? And the easy answer to that is 00:15:29.630 --> 00:15:35.150 probably not, you know, and so therefore stop treating it like it's a friendship, 00:15:35.150 --> 00:15:41.190 you know. A whole lot of wisdom there, but I agree, not a place where I feel like there's 00:15:41.190 --> 00:15:51.110 an easy chapter and verse where. So, I think it's this, you know, it's this balancing of just 00:15:51.110 --> 00:15:58.670 because you are setting up a boundary or you're being wise doesn't mean that you then also just 00:15:58.670 --> 00:16:04.350 get to neglect the forgiveness thing. It's like in maybe perhaps trying to recover. 00:16:06.645 --> 00:16:13.390 You know, and give people the permission to make wise decisions, somehow the message of Christ's 00:16:13.505 --> 00:16:18.750 forgiveness to others has been lost. I think... 00:16:20.085 --> 00:16:29.295 Like two thoughts. There's one is that it's a hard, that's a really hard thing to teach, 00:16:30.132 --> 00:16:32.655 because it has to be something that somebody chooses. 00:16:33.787 --> 00:16:34.815 Forgiveness? Forgiveness. 00:16:37.215 --> 00:16:45.615 Cause people, they're like, I don't want to, right? And I'm like, well, I can't make you. 00:16:46.444 --> 00:16:58.655 And if I just sit here and I just keep, if I make it some sort of moral imperative, I could maybe 00:16:58.655 --> 00:17:09.375 get somebody to do it in word and deed, but not in heart. It has to come from a place of choosing 00:17:09.375 --> 00:17:15.435 the way of Christ. Like, like, it has to be a like, because you 00:17:15.435 --> 00:17:21.751 were talking about like feelings, right? Like, it's like, I don't feel like forgiving. Right? Well, okay. 00:17:22.264 --> 00:17:29.961 And, you know, and maybe just clear obedience is good. You know, just saying like, well, Christ has taught me this, so I 00:17:30.315 --> 00:17:38.155 should do it. The Bible tells me so. That's not a bad place to start. But where Christ always roots forgiveness is in the 00:17:38.155 --> 00:17:40.467 forgiveness that we've received. 00:17:40.715 --> 00:17:41.151 Right. 00:17:41.555 --> 00:17:49.915 And the dying to self, pick up your cross and follow me. And it has to come from a place of the gospel. 00:17:52.233 --> 00:18:00.902 Like, does that kind of make sense? Yeah, it has to come, you know, if we say that our, 00:18:01.208 --> 00:18:15.235 like, if our forgiveness of others is rooted in, rooted in God's forgiveness of us, or in the same way, or in the same manner. 00:18:15.235 --> 00:18:15.612 Right. 00:18:15.756 --> 00:18:21.395 Like, the question then becomes, well, what are the circumstances under which God forgave, 00:18:22.048 --> 00:18:27.235 us? I mean, I guess you could play that game. Like, why did God forgive? Did God forgive 00:18:27.235 --> 00:18:33.155 because he felt like it. Did God forgive because the offense was small? 00:18:34.408 --> 00:18:41.142 Did God forgive, so why did God forgive? God forgave, yeah, it was part of his, 00:18:41.258 --> 00:18:44.068 it's his identity to forgive. 00:18:45.818 --> 00:18:55.798 And the identity, of course, is rooted firmly in love. So that if we have, that our forgiveness for others 00:18:55.798 --> 00:18:58.489 comes out of an identity of love. 00:18:59.083 --> 00:19:12.018 Not out of the emotion of willingness. I think there's a, the second piece is that the way we talk about the cross, 00:19:12.018 --> 00:19:20.818 we often talk about it in terms of our sin, things that we have done, being nailed to the cross. 00:19:20.818 --> 00:19:35.047 I know you're going with that. But the other piece too is that the things done to me have also been nailed there, right? 00:19:35.618 --> 00:19:40.395 And therefore... Nuh-uh. Nuh-uh. That... That... 00:19:40.618 --> 00:19:44.311 Jesus died for the... What you did to me is not on the cross, like... 00:19:45.103 --> 00:19:48.698 Well, that seems to be the opposite of what the Bible teaches, you know? 00:19:48.698 --> 00:19:50.698 Yes, correct. Correct. 00:19:51.116 --> 00:19:58.858 You know as much as you know there's a I don't know that really changes it Yeah, if I take the offense that was done to me 00:19:58.858 --> 00:20:04.138 And I and I turned to the cross and I said Jesus you've got a hold of that right now, 00:20:04.989 --> 00:20:07.744 No, you died for that. Yeah, it's. 00:20:10.058 --> 00:20:19.023 Massively for me at least makes a huge heart shift and How I can now again begin to approach the other person yeah, 00:20:19.690 --> 00:20:26.459 Yeah, yeah, I, you know, just kind of a little bit off the cuff, you know, I come back to that. 00:20:27.358 --> 00:20:28.881 You know, what is the main. 00:20:31.798 --> 00:20:37.262 What is the main issue or main theological issue with the church's misunderstanding or whatever? 00:20:37.398 --> 00:20:46.111 You know, like I, I don't wanna overstate this, but I think that forgiveness is probably, 00:20:50.618 --> 00:20:55.618 the main granular issue that causes, 00:21:01.578 --> 00:21:22.597 relational strife throughout generations. You know, like, compounded relational trauma, compounded, like, difficulty in relationships. 00:21:24.164 --> 00:21:29.374 You know, inability to get along with people, inability to maintain intimate relationships or 00:21:29.374 --> 00:21:37.454 friendships or anything like that, interpersonal conflict, I do think that it roots back to, 00:21:38.387 --> 00:21:45.374 we're holding on to sin. We're holding on to it. We have not surrendered it to the Lord. 00:21:46.399 --> 00:21:56.574 I, in my mind, that for me, when there's unforgiveness, particularly generational, 00:21:56.574 --> 00:22:04.574 long-term unforgiveness, it creates, I think of Jonah, think of the prophet Jonah, and I think 00:22:04.574 --> 00:22:10.654 of it creating a whole bunch of little mini Nineveh's, places you don't want to go, you don't 00:22:10.654 --> 00:22:14.514 I wanna talk about, and those can be people, 00:22:15.094 --> 00:22:20.554 those can be topics, those can be things where I'm not gonna talk about that with that person, 00:22:21.054 --> 00:22:22.661 because while there's something. 00:22:24.094 --> 00:22:27.514 Don't wanna forgive there, or there's a hurt, or there's a relationship. 00:22:27.514 --> 00:22:35.074 Well, how many people have you talked to or counseled who you have heard horrific stories or instances, 00:22:36.474 --> 00:22:44.320 of things that have been done to them in their lives that are now manifesting themselves significantly 00:22:44.574 --> 00:22:49.640 in their relationships that they're having now that are not connected at all to what happened to them. 00:22:50.190 --> 00:23:02.934 But that are, but that those things that were done to them were never passed through the filter of forgiveness. 00:23:03.094 --> 00:23:10.374 And I'm not saying that people's really traumatic or difficult experiences, all you needed to do 00:23:10.374 --> 00:23:12.155 was forgive the person, you wouldn't have them. 00:23:12.614 --> 00:23:18.610 Like I'm not saying that, but I am saying, I'm not saying it's every, I don't know, 00:23:18.934 --> 00:23:21.254 I might be saying it's everything. 00:23:21.254 --> 00:23:24.632 I might be saying it's everything because the full surrender of that hurt to the Lord, 00:23:26.574 --> 00:23:32.500 is I trust him to carry that hurt more than I trust myself. than I trust myself. 00:23:33.139 --> 00:23:40.214 There's like, there is a limit to this particular truth. I think this is something that. 00:23:42.894 --> 00:23:46.805 I've found to be very true, but I know is not necessarily always true. 00:23:47.372 --> 00:23:50.883 But I, what I find is that, like, 00:23:52.728 --> 00:23:57.157 Often, well, easiest way to say this is hurt people, hurt people, right? 00:23:59.625 --> 00:24:05.305 You want to, you meet somebody who is abrasive, who is just an absolute, like 00:24:05.705 --> 00:24:07.705 wreck to the relationships around them. 00:24:09.985 --> 00:24:25.025 Well, I'm laughing for my own personal reasons. Yeah, but like, that's, you know, we so often, you know, when we come home or we're like 00:24:25.025 --> 00:24:29.785 short with somebody, you know, and just like, and then like, we're just like, if you just 00:24:29.785 --> 00:24:35.345 knew the day I'd had, if you just knew the day I just had, you would, you would be okay 00:24:35.345 --> 00:24:37.665 with me acting this way. Right. 00:24:37.938 --> 00:24:46.585 And it, the way we behave seems very reasonable to us. but when somebody else behaves a certain way, the assumption is like they're acting very 00:24:46.585 --> 00:24:53.665 unreasonable. Chances are, not all the time, but chances are is that the way in which they 00:24:53.665 --> 00:24:59.705 are behaving is actually fairly reasonable to them if you knew the whole story. Doesn't 00:24:59.705 --> 00:25:08.745 mean what they're doing okay, but there is a… If we're able to lay down a fence, 00:25:08.745 --> 00:25:17.865 love Christ and come near, love like Christ and come near, and look over the hedgerow and see 00:25:17.865 --> 00:25:26.748 into somebody else's life, we will usually find that there are some fairly not justifiable but. 00:25:27.505 --> 00:25:34.945 Sympathetic, understandable reasons as to why they are the way they are and where they're at. 00:25:35.300 --> 00:25:45.225 CB Right. And my existential question is, would forgiveness address that early? I think it does. 00:25:45.225 --> 00:25:53.425 DRH I think it does. CB You have illustrated this by picking somebody up on your back, 00:25:53.425 --> 00:26:00.867 right? I always talk about holding a rock. Holding onto unforgiveness is like, if you're, 00:26:01.585 --> 00:26:05.285 listening to this, this is a really excellent spiritual exercise you can do 00:26:05.285 --> 00:26:14.405 for a day. If you've got like a major thing that you feel like you've been unforgiven, go outside, go to like a lake, Lake Chautauqua, go somewhere where 00:26:14.405 --> 00:26:17.782 there's some rocks. Pick up a rock that's about the size of your fist and then. 00:26:19.205 --> 00:26:27.725 Carry that around in your left or right hand for one day. Feel how heavy that thing is. 00:26:27.306 --> 00:26:32.436 And see how hard it is just to get into your car. PAUL Yeah, you're not allowed to put it down. 00:26:32.436 --> 00:26:33.476 RICK Not allowed to put it down. 00:26:34.274 --> 00:26:37.236 PAUL At all. RICK If you're not willing to put down the offense, 00:26:37.992 --> 00:26:42.756 the hurt, to let go, to forgive, to lay it at the foot of the cross, 00:26:43.564 --> 00:26:45.796 then you're holding that unforgiveness in your hand. 00:26:45.796 --> 00:26:49.396 PAUL Yeah, but it's too big. Like, Pastor Luke, the rock that I'm carrying is too big. 00:26:49.695 --> 00:26:58.796 RICK It's too big for you to hold. The answer is like, well, if it's too big, then put it down. Like the bigger the rock, 00:26:58.796 --> 00:27:05.076 the more eager we should be to lay it down, right? You want to carry that thing still? 00:27:05.710 --> 00:27:12.036 Doesn't mean it's easy. I don't think either of us are saying that forgiveness is like a trite 00:27:12.036 --> 00:27:18.716 thing, an easy thing, a flippant thing. But it is like, we want to talk about something that's like, 00:27:19.231 --> 00:27:21.635 like crucial to our spiritual health. 00:27:26.036 --> 00:27:32.356 Our relationship with God, it's pretty big. Well, I have another one, but I, you know, 00:27:32.356 --> 00:27:39.396 maybe we should do a part two of this podcast and talk about them, but it's more general, 00:27:39.396 --> 00:27:42.556 so I don't know if you had one that you wanted to bring up. 00:27:42.556 --> 00:27:46.996 I don't think, we're on a bit of a time crunch, so I don't think I will do justice 00:27:46.996 --> 00:27:50.559 to the one that I wanted to talk about, but if you got one that's a little bit more general. 00:27:50.676 --> 00:27:55.132 Well, I think a little bit more general, like theological problem, 00:27:57.156 --> 00:28:00.756 that's kind of invaded the church is, I guess I would put it two ways. 00:28:00.756 --> 00:28:08.015 It has to do with the scripture and the way that scripture is used in spiritual formation. 00:28:11.596 --> 00:28:18.970 And the, what I would see as like the use of scripture. 00:28:22.356 --> 00:28:26.586 Either as like a moral handbook going in one direction. Yeah. 00:28:27.775 --> 00:28:31.943 And, or, the. 00:28:35.211 --> 00:28:57.060 I would say the gradual, progressive nature of explaining away obvious context in order to soften the social stance of the scripture. 00:28:57.060 --> 00:29:06.900 We've talked a lot about, here on the podcast, if you've been listening fairly regularly, 00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:10.500 you've probably heard us talk about the handbook approach to the Bible. 00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:18.100 We've very thoroughly dismantled the fact that the Bible is not an instruction manual, 00:29:18.100 --> 00:29:25.180 a textbook, a how-to, a self-help book, it's God's revelation of himself to mankind. 00:29:25.180 --> 00:29:27.940 What do you mean by that second piece? I think I know what you mean, 00:29:27.940 --> 00:29:28.780 but I want to hear you talk about that. 00:29:28.780 --> 00:29:38.340 I mean, like, so our world, our culture, becoming continually, progressively, 00:29:38.340 --> 00:29:45.580 more socially acceptable of the things that Scripture has obviously concluded 00:29:45.580 --> 00:29:48.534 is sinful or destructive. 00:29:48.723 --> 00:29:55.223 And so in order to soften the blow of Scripture's proclamation, 00:29:55.304 --> 00:30:03.340 we explain away the truth of scripture by diluting the context in which it's written. 00:30:03.739 --> 00:30:03.840 Yeah. 00:30:04.675 --> 00:30:15.820 Yeah. So we dilute, you know, we dilute sexual standards, we dilute- Probably like the big one. 00:30:15.820 --> 00:30:19.580 Probably the big one. Yeah. Even things like you go back, I think you can, 00:30:19.736 --> 00:30:23.580 you can really apply that lens pretty much over every, 00:30:25.100 --> 00:30:33.820 even the forgiveness. We have an upsurgence of self-help, do the work. 00:30:36.525 --> 00:30:43.020 Do the emotional, mental trauma work, create all these boundaries. It's okay not to forgive 00:30:43.020 --> 00:30:49.100 because things are really, a lot of trauma has been done to you, right, it's almost like a cult 00:30:49.100 --> 00:30:56.060 of trauma a little bit. That's a, yeah, not everything needs to be called trauma. Right, 00:30:57.824 --> 00:31:04.460 and have not reckoned with, well, you know, that the Lord has made provision for the health of our 00:31:04.460 --> 00:31:09.780 interpersonal relationships by pursuing forgiveness with others the same way that we have pursued 00:31:10.060 --> 00:31:22.380 forgiveness with God. And so, I would say a gradual exodus away from a responsible reading 00:31:22.380 --> 00:31:33.260 an application of scripture and a gradual like pathway into it's like more socially acceptable. 00:31:35.499 --> 00:31:41.909 Yeah, well, I mean, we were, so this is actually, that particular topic is kind of where me 00:31:41.909 --> 00:31:46.309 and my friend who, when we first kind of thought about this question, were kind of talking 00:31:46.309 --> 00:31:50.515 about, he was talking about, we were talking about divorce. 00:31:50.949 --> 00:32:00.629 And like, you know, Jesus, the Bible takes a pretty strong stance on divorce. 00:32:01.498 --> 00:32:09.698 And it is, that's one that gets explained away a lot of times by context and things like that. 00:32:10.311 --> 00:32:14.389 I, yeah. That's a really hard one. It's a very, very hard one. 00:32:14.389 --> 00:32:20.609 And that's why we were having this conversation, just like, and we come to a place of trying 00:32:20.609 --> 00:32:30.189 to figure out like what is the best thing in the situation of like, of not a whole lot 00:32:30.189 --> 00:32:37.149 of good things. Yeah. So that's a tough one. Really tough. It is. Have you ever been 00:32:37.149 --> 00:32:40.309 asked by someone if they think, if you think that they should divorce their 00:32:40.309 --> 00:32:48.525 spouse? Yeah. Yeah. I kind of refuse to answer to be honest. Yeah. I, again, I, 00:32:49.264 --> 00:33:01.589 cannot, I can't. It's kind of an unfair question. It's a bit of an unfair question because I'm not them. It's their decision. I don't want to be at any point held accountable. 00:33:02.398 --> 00:33:07.029 But there's like a couple things that I tell people when I'm having these kind of conversations. 00:33:08.869 --> 00:33:14.949 One, depending on the situation, is sometimes I tell people that like people who get stuck and 00:33:14.949 --> 00:33:18.869 are kind of wrestling with this, some people get really stuck and they're just like, 00:33:19.556 --> 00:33:24.869 it's like they really want to separate or they want to get divorced. And I will tell them that 00:33:24.869 --> 00:33:31.029 like separation or divorce is not always 00:33:30.602 --> 00:33:39.892 the breaking of the covenant if the covenant has already been broken. Sometimes it's a consequence, 00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:47.812 for the covenant having been broken in a significant way prior. For me. 00:33:49.912 --> 00:33:58.842 You could disagree with me on that, and I would accept that. I don't know. I hold that as a, 00:33:59.094 --> 00:34:05.652 this is what I think, right? And I don't have a Bible verse to hold that. That seems to be a, 00:34:06.532 --> 00:34:12.932 drawn-out application of what Christ says, but I don't wanna draw it out so much that it becomes 00:34:12.932 --> 00:34:20.932 licensed, right? So, where does that line go? But I have told people that before, 00:34:22.692 --> 00:34:27.972 because I don't want someone to feel like, well, I'm the one who's gonna ruin it because I'm the 00:34:27.972 --> 00:34:32.006 I'm the one who's saying this has to stop and I'm gonna divorce. 00:34:32.172 --> 00:34:38.732 I'm like, well, you might not be, right? And so I wanna provide that. 00:34:39.892 --> 00:34:47.212 But then also, and then my theology being that even in some of the most worst circumstances, 00:34:47.212 --> 00:34:52.208 not, there are circumstances probably where I would say run. 00:34:52.452 --> 00:35:06.732 I don't know that I've encountered any of those yet. But where there's wrestling, I, because I know the heart of the Bible and what it seems 00:35:06.732 --> 00:35:12.805 to teach on it, it's like, preserve that. 00:35:13.552 --> 00:35:17.495 But I can't, again, like forgiveness, I cannot make you choose that. 00:35:18.647 --> 00:35:27.388 It has to be a choice to pursue Christ and Christ-likeness, picking up the cross. 00:35:27.697 --> 00:35:37.097 That's a choice that you, I cannot hoist upon you or force you to pick up that cross, because 00:35:37.097 --> 00:35:43.476 if I do, you'll just resent me and maybe resent God for it, because you felt like God made you do it. 00:35:43.977 --> 00:35:50.457 If you heed the call of Christ in the gospel and you choose to do it, I believe that there's 00:35:50.457 --> 00:35:57.177 something incredibly beautiful and glorious about that. But I cannot force somebody to 00:35:57.177 --> 00:36:03.537 choose that path. So I try and present it, but I don't ever force anyone down it. If that makes 00:36:03.537 --> 00:36:14.977 sense? Like what do you? Yeah, I mean, it really, I think it is an unfair question for people to 00:36:14.977 --> 00:36:20.417 ask, do you think I should get divorced? Because like you said, it's not my marriage. It's not my. 00:36:22.185 --> 00:36:27.697 You know, I would be interested to know, and I'm not a covenant theologian, 00:36:28.910 --> 00:36:33.411 But I would be interested to know how... 00:36:35.004 --> 00:36:41.295 God dealt with to think about the question of how God dealt with the nation of Israel when they, 00:36:42.017 --> 00:36:43.449 When they would break covenant covenant. I. 00:36:45.475 --> 00:36:52.615 Think there's like some I mean ultimately he created he provided the sacrifice. Yeah. Well, there's like some of the covenants, 00:36:53.630 --> 00:36:55.455 What do you mean? You're not a covenant? 00:36:56.295 --> 00:37:03.255 You're not dispensational No, I'm not, but you know what I mean? I'm not an expert in covenant theology, 00:37:03.255 --> 00:37:04.215 is what I should say. You know? 00:37:04.215 --> 00:37:09.150 Well, from what I remember of covenant theology is that there were some that were 00:37:09.255 --> 00:37:16.535 made unconditional covenant promises, promised to Abraham where Abraham's put to sleep and God 00:37:16.535 --> 00:37:25.015 walks through the pots and the animal sacrifices alone. But like the Davidic covenant, but the 00:37:25.015 --> 00:37:31.815 mosaic covenant, when God gives them the law. He also gives them, I think, curses and consequences 00:37:31.815 --> 00:37:41.175 if they don't. That was a conditional covenant. And so, like, there's, like, what is the covenant? 00:37:41.175 --> 00:37:46.535 Marriage is also a unique one in that I've never really heard anyone explain it, and I don't have 00:37:46.535 --> 00:37:51.815 a good answer to the question. But marriage seems to be one of the covenants and graces that is 00:37:51.815 --> 00:37:59.495 available outside of the church, instituted inside of creation. And so, there's absolutely 00:37:59.495 --> 00:38:05.015 like Christian theology to marriage. But I don't want to say that just because you're not a 00:38:05.015 --> 00:38:11.095 Christian doesn't mean that you are not partaking in this common grace of marriage, covenant of. 00:38:11.230 --> 00:38:20.615 Marriage. I'm not willing to go and say like, well, you're not a Christian, so that's not a 00:38:20.615 --> 00:38:25.735 marriage, right? I'm not willing to say that. Nope, me neither. So the covenant of marriage 00:38:25.735 --> 00:38:32.135 sits in this really strange place where we seem to share it with the world. 00:38:31.323 --> 00:38:37.480 And it doesn't sit in that, that asks some pretty significant questions of like, how. 00:38:37.693 --> 00:38:43.333 Do we navigate that outside of like, you know, the church and things like that. 00:38:43.333 --> 00:38:50.333 Yeah. Well, I think the whole, the whole topic, you know, probably demands that we do a part two. 00:38:50.333 --> 00:38:56.333 Yeah, I think so. I've like, I've got my own things to the initial question, but like, you know, sitting with 00:38:56.333 --> 00:39:01.693 and thinking about marriage and maybe divorce, if we want to continue down that rabbit hole. 00:39:03.533 --> 00:39:09.133 But if you're listening, and this is bringing up, you know, we talked about, gosh, I don't think we 00:39:09.133 --> 00:39:12.573 intended this episode to be a – Yeah, forgiveness and trauma and divorce. 00:39:12.573 --> 00:39:16.173 Yeah, I don't think we intended it to be a particularly heavy episode, but it kind of 00:39:16.173 --> 00:39:21.133 ended up being that way. So, if you've got questions, go ahead and leave them for us in 00:39:21.133 --> 00:39:23.893 in the comments and send us in the text line. 00:39:23.893 --> 00:39:28.213 We'd be interested to hear those as they kind of direct this conversation. 00:39:28.213 --> 00:39:29.396 I definitely want to pick this up. 00:39:29.733 --> 00:39:30.963 Yeah, for sure. 00:39:31.503 --> 00:39:38.293 Yeah, send us some texts, like Pastor Luke said. Put them in the comments and we'll try and deal with them. 00:39:38.293 --> 00:39:43.575 But maybe pick this topic up next time we sit down and talk with one another. Yeah. 00:39:43.600 --> 00:40:01.812 Music.