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Aaron Goldberg: Welcome everyone
to the PJ Players podcast.

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Today we have our guest,
Corey jz, founder of Tour iq.

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Tour IQ helps PJ tour professionals
use data to improve their games.

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Uh, I met Corey out on
tour working with players.

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Uh, I've been super impressed with how
he uses analytics not only to help guys

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map out courses, but really understand
their games and how they can get better.

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Uh, he's the former director
of analytics for the Utah Jazz

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and Austin FC from the MLS.

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Uh,

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welcome Corey.

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Thanks for being.

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Cory Jez: Thanks very much for having me.

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Excited to talk, uh, talk.

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Shop a little bit, get

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getting nerdy today.

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Aaron Goldberg: Yeah, I, uh, I think I
know numbers well, and then I talk to

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you and I feel like a kindergartner.

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So, uh, I appreciate
your knowledge base here.

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Um, let's, uh, you know, where I
wanna start is kind of your past data

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analytics life with, uh, in the NBA and
MLS and then kinda your journey here

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to, to golf and how that has helped.

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Cory Jez: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So it's been, um, you know, it's been
kind of a very, kind of odd career

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trajectory, career arc, if you will.

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Um, you know, nobody's
as, as, uh, the same.

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But, you know, I graduated college back
in 20 10, 20 11, and played a little bit

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in school, not very much like I was the
individ, I was the guy with the individual

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asterisk by his name, uh, kind of a thing.

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And, and so, um, always have loved
golf, always played competitively

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still, you know, like you try to, you
make the mid am I try to make the mid

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am every year, but, um, so I've always
loved and been a competitive golfer.

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Uh, but when I went out after graduation,
started working as kind of a data

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analyst, entry-level, data analyst,
um, kind of cut my teeth in terms of

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the skills the technologies ended up
getting a master's degree, uh, all

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that type of stuff, statistics, coding.

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Um, kind of what has become analytics
in a lot of industries, right?

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It's relevant in a lot of places, not
just sports, but, um, you know, my dad,

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my dad was a college basketball coach.

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I really loved basketball.

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It was the other sport that I,
you know, really, really tracked

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and followed both college and pro.

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And so I graduated college 2011,
which is literally the year that

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the movie Moneyball came out.

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It's impossible to kind of tell my
story without saying the word Moneyball.

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I've

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tried and it's just easier
to explain it that way.

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But, uh,

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Aaron Goldberg: think anybody in
analytics is gonna hear, hear Moneyball

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related, whether good or bad, or whether

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relevant or not.

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Cory Jez: yeah, and, and you know,
maybe, you know, the term analytics

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can be certainly polarizing at times,
but, um, you know, at the end of the

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day we're trying to take, uh, a type of
information, quantitative information,

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use it to help people make decisions.

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I mean, that's all, that's
all we're really trying to do.

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And so, uh, for me, the, you know, the
movie came out and I started seeing

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more and more in the space of like, Hey.

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Linear regression and um, you
know, data visualization, all these

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types of things that I was doing
professionally, albeit not in sports.

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Early in my career I was starting
to see happening in sport.

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You know, obviously baseball first
mover the NBA kind of, um, second

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behind that and saying, well, that's
the stuff I'm really interested in.

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It's what I spend all my time reading
about and watching and talking to

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people about and seeing if there's a
way I could kind of join those two up.

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So I was very lucky, um, kind of
five, six years into my career to

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be able to kind of make that jump
from industry into, into sports.

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Um, and like you said, worked with,
uh, Utah Jazz for four or five

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seasons as their head of analytics.

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Um, did and then spent about 18
months in the MLS with Austin FC as

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well before I figured out a way to
kind of, um, translate it into golf.

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And obviously being a competitive
golfer and being someone who's,

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you know, played my whole life,
that was like the ultimate, uh, the

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ultimate kind of marriage for me.

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Aaron Goldberg: Nice.

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Yeah.

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Did you always want to get back into
golf or did you think, hey, I'm gonna see

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where this takes me in sports and, you
know, it was more of, I don't wanna say

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an epiphany, but hey, as you've gotten in,
saw how it worked in the NBA where it was

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able to rise all the way to director of
analytics there, uh, for the Utah Jazz.

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Hey, I could actually see an

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application for

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this in golf.

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Cory Jez: Yeah, I think the
biggest, there probably was

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actually an epiphany moment for me.

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Um, I remember when I was doing my
master's degree and I was trying to think

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of what to do, uh, for my Master's thesis.

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Um, just not want they gave, they
would give you like corporate company

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data sets and you could do something
with that and work on a project on

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behalf of like a, a corporate partner.

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And that just wasn't
very interesting to me.

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Um, but I was able to scrape some shot
link data from the old PGA tour website.

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Uh, it's a little harder to get now.

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Uh, and I was able to do, um.

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Because able to write my Master's thesis
based on, you know, shot link data.

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And I, I still specifically remember
this was, would've been like 2019, uh,

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or 2020, but sending it to one of my
buddies who I, I played golf with and

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was like, oh man, like I can do this with
this and like this, you know, what I'm

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in grad school for and what I'm doing
professionally and combined with, you

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know, golf being the thing I, you know,
I love to do more than anything else was,

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uh, was really, really exciting to me.

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And so did I know I was gonna be
able to make it into a career or,

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you know, beyond just a hobby.

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Like, I was very lucky to, to get
introduced to some guys who played,

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you know, at different levels and, um,
many tours and, and some of the, you

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know, Korn Ferry, PGA tour Americas at
the time, or Canada at the time, and

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start figuring out what professional
golfers wanted outta this information.

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'cause I've always been very kind of,
uh, application oriented, like, like.

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Product oriented when it comes
to analytics, there's, there's

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a very academic side of it,
which is foundational, right?

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It's how you come up with
things like strokes gained.

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It's, you know, the, the people in
academia are what are doing that kind

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of the complex math work to build
those metrics, but then you have

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to take it to the consumer, right?

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You have to take it to the
person who's going to use it.

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And so I've always been very
focused on what are the questions

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we can answer and what are the
things that we can try to solve.

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You know, we look at, like
the NLCS is going on right

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now, brewers versus Dodgers.

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Uh, my brewers are down
oh two as we speak.

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And the, both those, both those groups
have 30 plus people working in their like

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technology and analytics groups, right?

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And that's across data science
and software engineering.

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And, um, the coaches whose job it
is to translate it to the bench

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coach and, and all of those things.

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And so, and, and I had similar
experience obviously in the MBA.

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And so how could I take that in translate
and make it actually make it useful?

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For a PGA tour player.

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I think that's been the biggest, you
know, area I've, you know, really

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grown in and, and understood like,
how do we actually apply this to them?

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Because we can do fancy numbers and models
and pretty pictures and visuals and make

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it cool and make it work on your iPhone,
but like if it doesn't answer and help you

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intervene or do things specifically, it's
just, you know, kind of data for data's

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sake.

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Aaron Goldberg: Yeah, that's what I've
been really impressed with is it's,

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you know, being able to peek behind
the curtain a little bit with you.

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The data's there to help reinforce
the right things and give insight.

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Uh, more than just, hey, the top
level of like, Hey, here's what's

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available on ShotLink, but then,
hey, what does this actually mean?

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But then putting it into a, we'll say
consumer facing, but a player facing

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platform that's easily understandable,
easily digestible, where they can

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actually do something with it.

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And a, you know, again, not comparing
you to anybody else, but just

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any, any player that's going to
treat their game like a business,

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'cause that's really what they are.

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You can't, you're not gonna employ a
30 man team of analytics like the MLB

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teams are doing, or NBA teams are doing.

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But to completely ignore it on
the same level is you're doing

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your business a disservice.

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And so, again, trying to get players
to think more around like CEO of

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their own company, analytics needs
to be part of that at some level.

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Every player's gonna be a little
bit different in how that's

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incorporated, but I think at least.

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Having these understandings of what's
out there and how shot link data,

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'cause that's gonna be obviously
the most readily available data.

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But then what, what is done with that?

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How do you improve your game?

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Where do you identify places in
your game that can be improved?

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What's the lowest hanging fruit?

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Just because you have a weakness doesn't
mean, hey, that's where I should spend

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the most, the majority of my time.

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And just 'cause you have a strength
doesn't mean you ignore that or, you

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know, only spend a little bit of time.

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You know, again, we'll talk about
that in a minute of how do we identify

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the best places to be practicing?

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Um, and then the whole course
prep, uh, tournament prep.

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How do we map out a course?

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How do we make decisions that are
data-driven as opposed to just feel,

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what's the combination of the two?

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Uh, using the data with your caddy
so that the caddy can have an

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understanding around these decisions.

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There's a lot that goes into it.

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And again, if I'm the, if I'm the
player, I'm the CEO of my business

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and the product is my play on the
course, I want everything at my

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fingertips to be able to make the best

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decisions.

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Cory Jez: For sure.

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And you know, we, we will use the term
analytics obviously throughout our

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conversation, Aaron, but information is
really, it's a form of information, right?

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Just like how your body is feeling
that day is a form of information

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and how you are swinging the club
is a form of information, right?

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It's maybe it's a little more
quantitative than it is qualitative,

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but you know, the, these athletes,
these golfers are, have been doing this

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for so long and they do it every day.

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So they're so finely attuned
to when those things kind of

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deviate off their, off their norm.

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And so, you know, this type of information
and then how we obviously apply it, which

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we'll talk about is, is kind of what
we're after here and we break it down.

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You kind of alluded to it, but we
break it down in three buckets.

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So core strategy, which is admittedly
probably like the sexiest part of it.

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It's definitely the part I talk the most
about, probably of, um, you know, what

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are we doing at number four at Napa?

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Or what are we doing at number five
at Black Desert coming up next week?

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Like.

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There's a lot of really interesting
holes in the PGA tour where you

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see golfers do different things,
you know, different players in the

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field employ different strategies.

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Um, so core strategy gets the majority,
probably the conversation, but tournament

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prep, you know, what is your, what does
Monday through Wednesday look like?

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What are you gonna spend your time doing?

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Um, which is kind of an extension
of the, what we call performance

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analytics, which is kind of the
player's skill, your skill profile.

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Uh, where are you lacking,

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how do I identify trends?

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Is one week is two weeks, is four weeks.

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Like, how do, how do I know
when I need to change up?

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How I'm practicing?

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How should I practice, um, if I'm making
a swing change, if I'm not, all of these

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types of things, because we're constrained
by time and kind of our physiology, right?

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I cannot hit balls for
eight hours straight.

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I would've a huge diminishing
return on the, you know, the

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eighth hour of practice there.

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Um, so how do I structure.

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Uh, an off week, an on week, you know,
an off week when I'm not playing the

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following week versus an off week
when I am playing the following week.

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All of that type of stuff.

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How do we, you know, dial that in
to make it as efficient as possible?

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And those are the types of things,
you know, you hinted at, you know, the

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golfers, the CEO of the company, this,
and maybe maybe tennis being the other

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one, is kind of the only sport where
they show up to work every day and

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do kind of whatever they want to do.

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You know, an NBA player, an NFL player
does, you know, obviously they've got

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input with their coaches and, and those
types of things, but by and large, if

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you're an NBA player, you show up and do
what the coach tells you to do that day.

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Um, and you might be a role player
who's gonna work on those specific

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parts of hi, of the role that
he's expected to do for the team.

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And so, you know, that can be a really
positive thing for a, a professional

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golfer, an aspiring professional golfer.

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Uh, but if you're not focused on it right,
it can also be a detriment, or at least

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something that, you know, you're not
as efficient as you could be with your

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time and, and with your prep and, and

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with your practice.

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Aaron Goldberg: Yeah, I

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mean, I think back to, you know, the end
of that, what you were saying there, and

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we're fortunate enough to see some of the
best players in the world and how they

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operate and how they run their day to day.

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And the best players clearly
operate their day differently

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than the rest of the guys on tour.

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And especially as guys are learning
what their rhythms are, what their

00:12:22.659 --> 00:12:26.439
best practices are, how they should
be setting up their standard day,

00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:29.079
and everyone's gonna be different.

00:12:29.079 --> 00:12:32.079
It doesn't mean you have to model it
the same way as those top players,

00:12:32.229 --> 00:12:36.369
but understanding like, Hey, what do
I need to accomplish throughout a day?

00:12:36.369 --> 00:12:38.709
What do I need to accomplish
Monday through Wednesday?

00:12:38.709 --> 00:12:42.909
What do I need to accomplish pre and
post game on a Thursday through Sunday?

00:12:43.599 --> 00:12:44.959
And then the off weeks, you know.

00:12:45.894 --> 00:12:49.194
Is rest the accomplishment
that day and recovery?

00:12:49.644 --> 00:12:53.244
Or is it working on something that's, you
know, identifying all those things and

00:12:53.244 --> 00:13:01.704
having a clear plan is, is huge and it's,
it's a better way, more efficient way to

00:13:01.704 --> 00:13:04.284
have no wasted energy, no wasted time.

00:13:04.524 --> 00:13:08.754
And as you all know, out on
PJ Tour, your time is probably

00:13:08.754 --> 00:13:10.014
your most precious commodity.

00:13:10.014 --> 00:13:12.894
Like, you just don't have enough
time in the day for everything.

00:13:13.194 --> 00:13:16.914
And so understanding what's
your highest and best use that

00:13:16.914 --> 00:13:18.984
day, that hour, that minute

00:13:19.104 --> 00:13:19.404
is

00:13:19.404 --> 00:13:20.244
super important.

00:13:21.019 --> 00:13:22.034
Cory Jez: It, it absolutely

00:13:22.284 --> 00:13:22.764
Aaron Goldberg: uh,

00:13:23.024 --> 00:13:23.234
Cory Jez: Yeah.

00:13:24.774 --> 00:13:25.254
Aaron Goldberg: yeah, go.

00:13:25.254 --> 00:13:25.584
Yeah,

00:13:25.584 --> 00:13:26.004
if you wanna

00:13:26.004 --> 00:13:26.694
expand on that, you can.

00:13:27.144 --> 00:13:27.804
Um,

00:13:27.974 --> 00:13:29.114
Cory Jez: you're, you're absolutely right.

00:13:29.114 --> 00:13:32.774
The time is, you know, time is the,
the big constraint that we have,

00:13:32.779 --> 00:13:36.794
you know, the professional golfers
have on themselves and, uh, again,

00:13:36.944 --> 00:13:40.544
when you walk into an NFL or an NBA
practice, every minute is scheduled out.

00:13:40.634 --> 00:13:42.404
You know, 'cause they got 'em for
maybe two hours on the quarter,

00:13:42.404 --> 00:13:43.394
an hour and a half on the court.

00:13:43.394 --> 00:13:43.754
Right.

00:13:43.964 --> 00:13:45.799
You know, a Tuesday on
the PGA tour is gonna be.

00:13:46.334 --> 00:13:50.384
Some form of activation
practice, probably nine holes.

00:13:50.624 --> 00:13:53.714
Um, some practice after some physio work.

00:13:53.714 --> 00:13:54.914
Maybe a lift, right?

00:13:54.944 --> 00:13:56.144
A light lift or whatever, depending.

00:13:56.144 --> 00:13:58.214
And that's like six,
seven hours, you know?

00:13:58.214 --> 00:14:00.854
Then you might have a corporate thing,
you know, maybe you just wanna get

00:14:00.854 --> 00:14:03.284
some rest 'cause you're going on three
weeks in a row, whatever it might be.

00:14:03.284 --> 00:14:09.464
And so building out that day really
kind of ruthlessly efficiently

00:14:09.464 --> 00:14:10.994
is, is very, very important.

00:14:10.994 --> 00:14:15.824
'cause you're gonna do that 20, 25 times
a year, um, maybe 30, 30 plus times a

00:14:15.824 --> 00:14:17.114
year depending on who you're as a player.

00:14:17.114 --> 00:14:20.474
And so, um, it's really important to
be very efficient with those things.

00:14:20.474 --> 00:14:24.584
And one of the things I have players do,
this isn't analytical at all, but when

00:14:24.584 --> 00:14:28.184
we start working together, say, sit down
with a blank piece of paper or maybe

00:14:28.184 --> 00:14:31.064
do it on a zoom call and write me out
your perfect Monday through Wednesday.

00:14:31.454 --> 00:14:32.054
What does it look like?

00:14:32.894 --> 00:14:35.534
Like in, you know, in chunks, right?

00:14:35.624 --> 00:14:37.364
How many times do you
see in the golf course?

00:14:37.604 --> 00:14:39.314
What, okay, I'm gonna go hit balls.

00:14:39.314 --> 00:14:41.384
Is it just, is the purpose
of that warming up?

00:14:41.444 --> 00:14:41.954
Is it.

00:14:42.449 --> 00:14:45.059
Working on a swing feel, is it,
you know, what, what's the purpose

00:14:45.059 --> 00:14:48.989
of hitting balls there and go
through the entire three day period?

00:14:49.289 --> 00:14:52.259
Um, you could do the same thing
with, you know, pre-round for each

00:14:52.259 --> 00:14:53.459
of your days, pre-round, right?

00:14:53.669 --> 00:14:56.609
Um, there's great clips of guys
like JJ Reddick and Dun Mitchell on

00:14:56.609 --> 00:14:59.669
social media talking about their,
you know, their off season program

00:14:59.669 --> 00:15:01.319
or their pre round, their pre-game.

00:15:01.769 --> 00:15:05.459
Um, and, you know, an NBA player's
playing 82 games, it's about the

00:15:05.459 --> 00:15:08.579
number of rounds a PGA tour player's
gonna play in a year, right?

00:15:08.579 --> 00:15:09.389
And so

00:15:09.469 --> 00:15:09.689
Aaron Goldberg: Yep.

00:15:10.349 --> 00:15:13.529
Cory Jez: it, it's knowing that
and having that down and having the

00:15:13.529 --> 00:15:16.409
things that you want to accomplish
really clear is, is really,

00:15:16.409 --> 00:15:17.609
really important for those guys.

00:15:18.724 --> 00:15:20.579
Aaron Goldberg: Well, and I think one
of the keys you said there, 'cause

00:15:20.654 --> 00:15:25.739
I, I go through a similar practice,
which is interesting, but is not just

00:15:25.739 --> 00:15:27.179
what you're doing but the intention.

00:15:27.779 --> 00:15:32.579
And I think sometimes it, what I see and
what I've even talked to players about is.

00:15:33.569 --> 00:15:36.209
Sometimes they forget why they're
even doing that thing, or they're

00:15:36.209 --> 00:15:38.849
going through the motion because
they think they're supposed to

00:15:38.849 --> 00:15:40.319
and they see other guys doing it.

00:15:40.589 --> 00:15:45.329
But the intention isn't quite there, and
it doesn't mean it's wasted time, but it

00:15:45.329 --> 00:15:49.679
can be a lot more efficient, even just
by identifying what that intention is.

00:15:49.979 --> 00:15:55.574
Uh, it makes that time and practice and
energy spent so much more worthwhile.

00:15:56.662 --> 00:15:58.342
Cory Jez: Yeah, and I would
break, I would break that into

00:15:58.342 --> 00:15:59.602
kind of three buckets, right?

00:15:59.692 --> 00:16:02.392
Uh, you know, we'll use hit hitting
balls as an example, but there's

00:16:02.392 --> 00:16:03.712
kind of three buckets of intention.

00:16:03.712 --> 00:16:06.142
It's like you're going through your bag,
you're getting loose, you're getting

00:16:06.142 --> 00:16:09.532
warm, you're hitting shots, you're
not really trying to like accomplish

00:16:09.532 --> 00:16:12.742
a specific shot, but you're, you need
to go through the bag once, right?

00:16:13.102 --> 00:16:16.342
Um, then you kind of have, you know,
what I would call like technical work.

00:16:16.342 --> 00:16:20.752
And that is anything you are working
on or trying to re ingrain, um,

00:16:20.812 --> 00:16:25.852
this is where like block practice is
totally, um, useful and acceptable.

00:16:25.882 --> 00:16:28.072
And, you know, people talk about
block versus random all the time.

00:16:28.072 --> 00:16:31.972
Well, like I am trying to make with a mid
iron, I'm trying to get a plus one path

00:16:31.972 --> 00:16:36.202
with a zero face 'cause I wanna hit a
baby draw or something like that, right?

00:16:36.202 --> 00:16:37.372
You're trying to hit that
number on the TrackMan.

00:16:37.882 --> 00:16:41.512
You're working with your swing
coach to try to hit a position, try

00:16:41.512 --> 00:16:43.042
to have a, try to ingrain a feel.

00:16:43.042 --> 00:16:45.082
You're using video, you're
using TrackMan, right?

00:16:45.082 --> 00:16:46.222
You're doing all those things.

00:16:46.657 --> 00:16:49.717
And that's like a good percentage
of your range session, right?

00:16:49.717 --> 00:16:52.507
If you're gonna be out there for
two hours, that, that may be an

00:16:52.507 --> 00:16:56.467
hour of it, um, is working on those
things at different parts of your

00:16:56.467 --> 00:17:01.027
bag, whether it's wedges, mid irons,
um, long irons, clubs, whatever.

00:17:01.087 --> 00:17:06.607
Um, but then the last part and the one
that is definitely, I think we see the

00:17:06.607 --> 00:17:12.127
most variation among PGA tour players,
um, in what I call like the execution

00:17:12.127 --> 00:17:14.557
based part of part of the session, right?

00:17:14.557 --> 00:17:18.247
Where, you know, we are gonna take
what we are trying to ingrain and we

00:17:18.247 --> 00:17:21.667
are gonna challenge you with it and
we're gonna give you kind of a gamified

00:17:21.667 --> 00:17:24.457
approach to executing on those things.

00:17:24.457 --> 00:17:28.357
And we're gonna try to replicate
what we'll see on the golf course.

00:17:28.357 --> 00:17:32.047
Maybe not perfectly to a t, but
based on what we're, depending on

00:17:32.047 --> 00:17:35.557
what we're working on, where we've
identified maybe the focus area of

00:17:35.557 --> 00:17:39.277
your game, uh, or maybe what the golf
course is gonna ask of us this week.

00:17:39.277 --> 00:17:43.177
We're going to design protocols
around that based on the statistics.

00:17:43.507 --> 00:17:47.167
To help you to kind of put you,
uh, in the fire a little bit and,

00:17:47.167 --> 00:17:48.547
and make you go execute on that.

00:17:49.027 --> 00:17:52.417
Some players I see do this religiously
and do it really, really well.

00:17:52.867 --> 00:17:54.577
Certainly it's something
I'm a huge fan of.

00:17:54.697 --> 00:17:58.477
Um, and then there are probably some
players who straight up do not do this

00:17:58.477 --> 00:18:02.137
ever on the driving range or on the
putting green, which, you know, there's a

00:18:02.407 --> 00:18:05.737
wide variety of personalities and people
and no one thing is right for everybody.

00:18:06.067 --> 00:18:09.637
Um, but, but I would argue kind of
all of the literature and all the

00:18:09.637 --> 00:18:13.297
research has showed us that these,
you know, randomized games, and we can

00:18:13.297 --> 00:18:16.717
get into some of the specifics here,
Aaron, but like this randomization

00:18:17.527 --> 00:18:21.877
giving you a win-loss criteria on, on
a certain game, uh, will really kind

00:18:21.877 --> 00:18:25.027
of cauterize what you're trying to
learn and what you're, the skill you're

00:18:25.027 --> 00:18:26.407
trying to acquire and make you better

00:18:26.497 --> 00:18:27.187
for it long term.

00:18:29.061 --> 00:18:34.131
Aaron Goldberg: Yeah, I think
understanding, hey, we can't rep replicate

00:18:34.131 --> 00:18:40.461
the pressure of a Sunday afternoon or
Friday afternoon for some guys, or, you

00:18:40.461 --> 00:18:42.351
know, the first tee shot on Thursday.

00:18:42.831 --> 00:18:48.111
But if we can gamify and give
that win-loss scenario for certain

00:18:48.111 --> 00:18:55.131
practice parts of our game, it's
the closest thing to the real thing.

00:18:55.251 --> 00:18:59.451
And again, we're not trying to have
the exact same, 'cause we, we know

00:18:59.451 --> 00:19:02.541
we can't have that, but if we can
get something close, it's gonna help

00:19:02.541 --> 00:19:08.031
prepare for playing under pressure,
nerves, whatever people want to call it.

00:19:08.061 --> 00:19:11.061
Like, you feel slightly
different under the gun.

00:19:11.151 --> 00:19:13.491
And it, it's not a bad thing, it's.

00:19:14.166 --> 00:19:16.686
It's a good thing and the best
players in the world rise to

00:19:16.686 --> 00:19:18.966
that occasion and channel that
and learn how to channel that.

00:19:18.966 --> 00:19:22.116
I don't think it's always a, hey,
you can either do it or you can't.

00:19:22.116 --> 00:19:25.476
I think it's practicing it and
understanding how do I get better

00:19:25.896 --> 00:19:27.666
under this type of scenario.

00:19:28.056 --> 00:19:33.636
Uh, and so any sort of gamified approach
like that, that, that has numbers behind

00:19:33.636 --> 00:19:36.786
it where it's not just making it up out
of thin air is gonna be a good thing.

00:19:36.786 --> 00:19:40.266
But I even go back to like, when you're
kids, like you wanna, you wanna beat

00:19:40.266 --> 00:19:43.956
your buddy in a putting contest or a up
and down contest or whatever it may be.

00:19:43.956 --> 00:19:46.896
Like that's as close to the
pressure you're gonna see on

00:19:46.896 --> 00:19:48.246
the golf course as you can get.

00:19:49.446 --> 00:19:55.386
How do we, you know, if we take it to
the next level of like, I want to get

00:19:55.386 --> 00:19:59.736
to tournament prep and co we'll get to
course prep a little bit at the end, um,

00:19:59.736 --> 00:20:04.266
and do kind of a sneak peek of that, you
know, we'll do that on another episode.

00:20:04.266 --> 00:20:10.446
But as far as taking, first, taking
the sample size and the data that, you

00:20:10.446 --> 00:20:13.326
know, all the PJ tour players have at
their fingertips through Shot Lane.

00:20:13.341 --> 00:20:19.401
Like if they're able to access that,
what's the first step there of taking

00:20:19.401 --> 00:20:26.331
a look at it, analyzing it, and then
creating some sort of practice plan for,

00:20:26.481 --> 00:20:30.831
you know, right now we're in the fall,
so you're players are either in their

00:20:30.831 --> 00:20:35.631
off season or about be, and they're, you
know, three week off season that you guys

00:20:35.631 --> 00:20:38.331
get, or you know, anything in between.

00:20:38.331 --> 00:20:42.831
But how do we identify in a little bit
of time to improve and work on things?

00:20:43.641 --> 00:20:46.491
What's the best place to be spending
our time and building a plan

00:20:46.491 --> 00:20:46.731
around

00:20:46.731 --> 00:20:46.881
that?

00:20:47.461 --> 00:20:47.761
Cory Jez: Yeah.

00:20:48.361 --> 00:20:51.931
So, you know, ShotLink is, is
a, is a great resource, right?

00:20:51.931 --> 00:20:54.121
The PGA tour has developed
this incredible asset from a

00:20:54.121 --> 00:20:55.741
data standpoint with ShotLink.

00:20:56.071 --> 00:20:58.801
Um, they've obviously built it
out over the last decade or two.

00:20:59.101 --> 00:20:59.611
Um.

00:21:00.176 --> 00:21:02.696
And it, there's so many different
applications of it, right?

00:21:02.696 --> 00:21:06.716
So what we're talking about here is a
very specific application of ShotLink

00:21:06.746 --> 00:21:10.766
and you know, again, analogizing
it back to the baseball teams.

00:21:10.766 --> 00:21:13.316
Like they've got dozens
of people looking at it.

00:21:13.316 --> 00:21:16.106
And, you know, part of the reason
I think that I exist is 'cause I'm

00:21:16.106 --> 00:21:19.706
taking this very, you know, trying to
solve and answer these very specific

00:21:19.706 --> 00:21:23.066
questions that are oriented towards the
player and their coach and their team.

00:21:23.066 --> 00:21:26.936
Whether it's for core strategy or in
this case, you know, identifying, you

00:21:26.936 --> 00:21:29.966
know, their performance analysis and
what they need to do to try to get

00:21:29.966 --> 00:21:34.076
better going into next year, going into
their last few, um, events in the fall.

00:21:34.076 --> 00:21:37.346
So the first thing that we're gonna
do is we're gonna do some math

00:21:37.346 --> 00:21:40.856
behind the scenes with it to one,
make it really actionable, right?

00:21:40.856 --> 00:21:43.856
Because shot link at at its
core is just a list of shots.

00:21:44.126 --> 00:21:44.936
It's all it is.

00:21:45.176 --> 00:21:47.996
Um, and there's a bunch of random
coordinates that you looked at.

00:21:47.996 --> 00:21:50.846
The data file wouldn't mean
anything to you, right?

00:21:50.846 --> 00:21:51.663
But they mean something

00:21:51.836 --> 00:21:52.946
relative to each other.

00:21:53.456 --> 00:21:55.466
Um, so the first thing we wanna do

00:21:55.536 --> 00:21:56.106
Aaron Goldberg: leave that

00:21:56.196 --> 00:21:56.436
to the

00:21:56.436 --> 00:21:57.576
experts to look at.

00:21:57.986 --> 00:21:58.376
Cory Jez: Yeah.

00:21:58.466 --> 00:22:01.556
Yeah, that's, that's where the coding
part comes in is very, very helpful

00:22:01.556 --> 00:22:05.366
to, we, we, we don't do it by hand,
sir, but so the first thing that we

00:22:05.366 --> 00:22:09.716
do, uh, with to IQ is, um, we take
strokes gained, which is awesome.

00:22:09.836 --> 00:22:12.686
Um, you know, mark Brody, Columbia
Professor built Strokes gained,

00:22:13.076 --> 00:22:14.426
gosh, probably 20 years ago.

00:22:14.516 --> 00:22:17.996
Um, and it's a great way to
kind of evaluate all shots

00:22:17.996 --> 00:22:19.196
on a level playing field.

00:22:19.256 --> 00:22:23.096
Um, but we need to make it a
little more specific to the

00:22:23.096 --> 00:22:24.746
player and to the situation.

00:22:24.806 --> 00:22:25.136
Right.

00:22:25.136 --> 00:22:28.676
So, Aaron, I know you and I could
think of dozens of situations on tour

00:22:28.676 --> 00:22:33.536
where maybe you have a chip green
side and it's, you know, take PJ

00:22:33.536 --> 00:22:38.171
National, uh, when they didn't oversee
it down in, uh, uh, west Palm is an

00:22:38.171 --> 00:22:40.571
example of this, like grainy Bermuda.

00:22:40.706 --> 00:22:44.456
You're 10 feet below the green, you're
going up over a hump and it's shortsighted

00:22:44.456 --> 00:22:47.366
to a pin and it's just like nightmare
fuel, especially for guys like you

00:22:47.366 --> 00:22:49.166
and me, much less PGA tour players.

00:22:49.166 --> 00:22:52.916
But like, you know, you've gotta hit it
either in nippy 60 or a putt or a bump.

00:22:52.916 --> 00:22:53.731
There's guys play that shot.

00:22:54.041 --> 00:22:54.641
Different ways, right?

00:22:54.821 --> 00:22:56.201
That's a really, really hard pitch shot.

00:22:56.201 --> 00:23:00.311
It might be on paper, it's 20 yards
from the fairway maybe, or 15 yards

00:23:00.311 --> 00:23:03.461
from the fairway, and that's all that
strokes gain would know about that shot.

00:23:04.181 --> 00:23:07.421
But what, what we can do again, since
we're trying to answer a very specific

00:23:07.421 --> 00:23:13.541
question is use, well, hey, 50 or
60 guys might go down there over the

00:23:13.541 --> 00:23:15.041
four days, over the course of a week.

00:23:15.041 --> 00:23:18.791
So we've got a really good idea
of how that actually placed all

00:23:18.791 --> 00:23:19.901
the different pin locations.

00:23:20.261 --> 00:23:23.471
And we go to that course every year and
that course doesn't really change and

00:23:23.471 --> 00:23:25.061
maybe, maybe one year they oversee it.

00:23:25.061 --> 00:23:25.931
So we account for that.

00:23:25.931 --> 00:23:27.671
But the course doesn't really change.

00:23:27.671 --> 00:23:30.281
Most courses on tour relatively
similar year over year.

00:23:30.641 --> 00:23:34.271
And so we've now got maybe 200 guys who
have been down there over the last four or

00:23:34.271 --> 00:23:36.341
five years in that one spot on the hole.

00:23:36.341 --> 00:23:41.501
So we can actually really, uh, accurately
and precisely grade the difficulty of

00:23:41.501 --> 00:23:45.491
every shot on tour because we've got this
really rich data set of a bunch of other

00:23:45.491 --> 00:23:47.441
people have generally been in that spot.

00:23:47.951 --> 00:23:48.821
Before as well.

00:23:49.061 --> 00:23:52.271
So we call it expected strokes,
which is basically kind of like

00:23:52.301 --> 00:23:54.011
just built on top of strokes gained.

00:23:54.341 --> 00:23:56.681
Uh, but it gives us
precision around each shot.

00:23:56.681 --> 00:24:01.061
So you hear this all the time talking to
especially short game coaches on tour,

00:24:01.061 --> 00:24:04.961
like a, is he a bad shipper or does he
always leave himself in tough spots, which

00:24:04.961 --> 00:24:07.061
are two totally different things, right?

00:24:07.091 --> 00:24:11.351
But this now allows us to kind of unlock
the answer to that and say, well, you're

00:24:11.351 --> 00:24:15.551
in really, really tough spots, which maybe
is a problem with your iron play actually.

00:24:15.911 --> 00:24:17.861
So, or your core strategy perhaps.

00:24:18.491 --> 00:24:20.921
But if you're always leaving
it in tough spots on the PGA

00:24:20.921 --> 00:24:23.381
tours, like headline statistics,
you'd show up as a bad chipper.

00:24:24.071 --> 00:24:26.831
But you may not actually be, you
may be like closer to a tour average

00:24:26.831 --> 00:24:28.721
chipper who's always in tough spots.

00:24:29.531 --> 00:24:33.761
And if we don't get that part of the
math right, we may go work on the wrong

00:24:33.761 --> 00:24:38.291
things, you know, or you know, none of
this is binary, but like we may spend a

00:24:38.291 --> 00:24:41.621
little more time here than we should there
when we should be spending the time like.

00:24:42.026 --> 00:24:44.036
On our short iron or
mid iron approach play.

00:24:44.036 --> 00:24:46.406
'cause we're missing too many
greens in those bad spots.

00:24:46.616 --> 00:24:50.606
And so getting that math part right,
which is like super not sexy and like

00:24:50.606 --> 00:24:53.156
the nerdy part of all of this, but
it's really important to get it right

00:24:53.156 --> 00:24:56.726
because that's what's going to inform
what we spend our time on, right?

00:24:56.726 --> 00:25:01.076
And so if you are a, um, just to
extend that shipping example, like if

00:25:01.076 --> 00:25:04.496
you're someone who has been leaving
it in tough spots, we can actually

00:25:04.496 --> 00:25:07.226
say like, yeah, you're hitting your
chips to 12 feet, but that's where

00:25:07.226 --> 00:25:08.576
everyone hits those chips from.

00:25:08.996 --> 00:25:11.246
You're actually about a
tour average level chipper.

00:25:11.246 --> 00:25:14.696
Like, yeah, we'd like to get that
better, but where you're, where you're

00:25:14.846 --> 00:25:19.376
hurting yourself is more your short
iron, mid iron play because to left-sided

00:25:19.376 --> 00:25:21.776
pins, you're always missing left.

00:25:21.986 --> 00:25:24.056
You know, just as a generic example here.

00:25:24.386 --> 00:25:27.836
Um, and that's when you tend to have
most of those kind of really difficult,

00:25:27.896 --> 00:25:29.636
above average difficulty shots.

00:25:29.966 --> 00:25:32.756
Um, so we would actually say like,
Hey, maybe we need to go work on

00:25:33.326 --> 00:25:36.116
short mid iron, play two left pins
and build some games around that

00:25:36.266 --> 00:25:37.376
for, for that example.

00:25:39.971 --> 00:25:40.451
Aaron Goldberg: That's great.

00:25:40.451 --> 00:25:46.991
Yeah, I can see how just the raw
data could just over generalize,

00:25:46.991 --> 00:25:48.731
could be a little bit misleading.

00:25:48.941 --> 00:25:52.061
I think there was always this
thought that, hey, over the course

00:25:52.061 --> 00:25:56.621
of a whole season, the extra hard
shot and the extra easy shot are

00:25:56.621 --> 00:25:57.846
gonna average each other out and.

00:25:58.521 --> 00:26:03.651
Everyone's gonna kind of regress to the
mean or be in the middle on all, you

00:26:03.651 --> 00:26:08.421
know, if he's a, a better than average
shipper or a worse than average shipper,

00:26:08.421 --> 00:26:11.301
he's gonna have some easy chips, some
hardships, it'll figure itself out.

00:26:11.721 --> 00:26:12.591
But it's actually not true.

00:26:12.591 --> 00:26:15.051
Like you need some
context behind the data.

00:26:15.111 --> 00:26:18.471
And it's not saying the data's wrong,
it's just adding context to it.

00:26:18.471 --> 00:26:23.391
It seems like, and to your point, it's
not, hey, binary, we're, we're not

00:26:23.391 --> 00:26:26.031
gonna practice chipping because actually
we're a little bit better than we think.

00:26:26.031 --> 00:26:31.731
But it's more, Hey, let's identify an
issue of, hey, maybe our proximity to

00:26:31.731 --> 00:26:38.691
hole in those, you know, 1 50, 1 75 isn't
that bad, but to a short left pin or a

00:26:38.691 --> 00:26:44.211
short right pin, we keep missing in the
same spot and short sighting ourself and

00:26:44.211 --> 00:26:49.221
having an above average difficulty chip,
which is then leaving us a six to eight

00:26:49.221 --> 00:26:51.381
footer as opposed to two to three footer.

00:26:51.651 --> 00:26:52.701
So we're just.

00:26:53.166 --> 00:26:55.776
By lot, like by the percentages,
we're missing more of

00:26:55.776 --> 00:26:56.886
those six to eight footers.

00:26:57.156 --> 00:26:59.616
Now we start creeping into,
hey, are we a bad putter?

00:26:59.616 --> 00:27:02.826
Two are scrambling percentages going down.

00:27:02.826 --> 00:27:07.176
I think there's all these
extrapolations of players

00:27:07.176 --> 00:27:09.006
understand, like the feel behind it.

00:27:09.036 --> 00:27:11.736
Like, Hey, I don't feel like a bad
chipper, but if the numbers say

00:27:11.736 --> 00:27:16.836
I'm a hundred and 20th in chipping,
then maybe I do need to work on it.

00:27:16.836 --> 00:27:18.576
And now all of a sudden
it's a confidence thing.

00:27:18.576 --> 00:27:21.996
You know, I can, I don't wanna go
down too far of the rabbit hole, but

00:27:21.996 --> 00:27:28.416
I think that understanding context
around the data and your guys', sorry,

00:27:28.446 --> 00:27:33.066
you not, so stroke gain strokes game
is from the tour and then yours is

00:27:33.096 --> 00:27:34.386
on layered on top is what?

00:27:34.446 --> 00:27:34.746
What is it

00:27:35.006 --> 00:27:36.461
Cory Jez: we call it expected strokes.

00:27:38.016 --> 00:27:38.466
Aaron Goldberg: Yeah.

00:27:38.676 --> 00:27:41.766
So that expected strokes adds
a ton of context for that.

00:27:41.766 --> 00:27:44.556
And now, okay, now I'm a player.

00:27:44.976 --> 00:27:46.416
I have this expected strokes.

00:27:46.656 --> 00:27:50.976
You and I have taken a look at
all the data and we've identified.

00:27:52.341 --> 00:27:55.191
Let, let's use an example, like gimme
an example of something you identified

00:27:55.191 --> 00:27:59.666
with a player and were able to work
on since let's say, tour championship

00:27:59.806 --> 00:28:00.786
or the playoffs.

00:28:01.371 --> 00:28:02.951
Cory Jez: Yeah, so calendar wise, right.

00:28:02.981 --> 00:28:04.721
Uh, and I'll hit on one
thing you said there, Aaron.

00:28:04.721 --> 00:28:08.111
Another thing is important, you know, it,
it's never, the data is right or wrong.

00:28:08.111 --> 00:28:11.681
Like the data is just literally the
location of the golf ball and whether

00:28:11.681 --> 00:28:16.601
it was in the rough or the fairway,
the conclusion we draw from it and the

00:28:16.961 --> 00:28:22.091
intervention we take because of what we
think it's telling us is, and again, not

00:28:22.091 --> 00:28:26.021
right or wrong in a binary sense, but like
gonna lead us down one path or, uh, have

00:28:26.021 --> 00:28:27.881
us put more weight on one area or another.

00:28:27.881 --> 00:28:30.281
And that's the thing we just
wanna be really precise with when

00:28:30.281 --> 00:28:32.291
we're making these recommendations
and kind of designing these

00:28:32.291 --> 00:28:33.971
interventions with players.

00:28:33.971 --> 00:28:35.111
Because again.

00:28:36.101 --> 00:28:38.021
Quarters of a shot matter out here.

00:28:38.051 --> 00:28:41.051
You know, being a half a shot
better is the difference between

00:28:41.051 --> 00:28:43.181
being in the tour championship and
missing the playoffs sometimes.

00:28:43.181 --> 00:28:45.791
Like, you know, so over the
course of a round, all these

00:28:45.791 --> 00:28:47.051
margins really, really add up.

00:28:47.051 --> 00:28:50.921
So, um, but you know, I'll,
I'll give you an example.

00:28:50.921 --> 00:28:53.951
A player we work with, uh, who came
to us in the middle of this season,

00:28:54.461 --> 00:28:58.001
um, and kind of knew his iron play
was not up to standard, right?

00:28:58.031 --> 00:28:59.771
He could look at a strokes
gained approach number and be

00:28:59.771 --> 00:29:01.721
like, it's negative, that's bad.

00:29:01.721 --> 00:29:06.161
Like, and that's correct, obviously,
but that's not enough to be like,

00:29:06.281 --> 00:29:07.661
how do I make it not negative?

00:29:07.721 --> 00:29:12.911
And, you know, play better is obviously
like an easy, like very blunt force thing.

00:29:12.911 --> 00:29:16.571
Like, yeah, you and your swing coach
go like, hit irons better, but okay.

00:29:16.871 --> 00:29:18.911
That, that's not really a
recommendation or an intervention.

00:29:18.911 --> 00:29:20.501
Everyone's always trying to do that.

00:29:20.831 --> 00:29:24.431
Um, always trying to be more consistent,
always trying to, you know, hit the

00:29:24.431 --> 00:29:26.891
shapes they want to hit, hit the spots
and the lines that they want to hit.

00:29:26.921 --> 00:29:30.011
Um, and so everybody's, if
everybody's doing that, like,

00:29:30.011 --> 00:29:31.991
how do I really drill into.

00:29:32.561 --> 00:29:36.821
Very specific situations and identify
those places, um, in that player's game.

00:29:36.821 --> 00:29:37.091
Right.

00:29:37.091 --> 00:29:42.731
And so with approach plays specifically,
obviously breaking it down by distance,

00:29:42.791 --> 00:29:46.631
uh, we tend to only look at shots from
the fairway, um, shots from the rough.

00:29:46.631 --> 00:29:49.211
You're generally trying to find
the green, you know, the way

00:29:49.211 --> 00:29:50.621
the rough is on the PGA tour.

00:29:50.801 --> 00:29:54.101
There's obviously certain weeks where you
can be a little more aggressive, but you

00:29:54.101 --> 00:29:57.851
get that Bermuda rough right late in the
year like we had in Memphis or Atlanta.

00:29:57.851 --> 00:30:00.551
And it's like, man, you're just
trying to like pitch it front edge and

00:30:00.551 --> 00:30:03.131
hope it stays, um, most of the time.

00:30:03.131 --> 00:30:07.661
So, you know, we look at your shots
from the fairway, um, we can break it

00:30:07.661 --> 00:30:11.321
down by pin location, um, and obviously
break it down by yardage bucket.

00:30:11.561 --> 00:30:14.171
And we can also, you know, I
think one thing that's important

00:30:14.171 --> 00:30:15.491
here is like break it down.

00:30:15.491 --> 00:30:20.531
We call it temporally, but across
time, like you made the point Aaron,

00:30:20.531 --> 00:30:24.161
of like, yes, over the course of a
large enough sample that those strokes

00:30:24.161 --> 00:30:26.561
gained and expected strokes numbers
would kind of level out, right?

00:30:26.561 --> 00:30:26.781
If you had.

00:30:27.431 --> 00:30:29.951
A bazillion chip shots
that you hit on tour.

00:30:29.951 --> 00:30:32.261
Some would be hard, some would be easy,
and they would kinda level out to being

00:30:32.261 --> 00:30:34.151
a tour average difficulty chip shot.

00:30:34.211 --> 00:30:35.621
Well, hey, guess what?

00:30:35.621 --> 00:30:39.011
Like I got a tournament in three
weeks, like I gotta decide what to do.

00:30:39.221 --> 00:30:40.871
So I can't wait till the end of the year.

00:30:40.871 --> 00:30:45.011
And, and sample size to figure itself
out, like the question is coming up

00:30:45.011 --> 00:30:49.271
of like, what have I done the last two
or three weeks like that has ticked

00:30:49.271 --> 00:30:52.721
out of, its like normal range and like
where do I need to ho hone it back in?

00:30:52.721 --> 00:30:55.481
Or where do you know I've
been working on this thing?

00:30:55.481 --> 00:30:57.521
Is it coming, you know, is it improving?

00:30:57.521 --> 00:30:59.201
Is it coming up the
way I would want it to?

00:30:59.201 --> 00:31:00.461
Is it translating in tournaments?

00:31:00.461 --> 00:31:04.361
And so we can't really wait
for like lar the law of large

00:31:04.361 --> 00:31:05.861
numbers to kick in essentially.

00:31:05.921 --> 00:31:06.251
Right?

00:31:06.251 --> 00:31:10.421
So, um, there was a player who came
to us, uh, came to us middle of the

00:31:10.421 --> 00:31:14.321
season, knew his approach play kind of
was not, uh, where he wanted it to be.

00:31:14.531 --> 00:31:17.591
We really picked out like 100 to 1 25.

00:31:17.591 --> 00:31:20.081
So kind of full sandwich wedge,
full gap wedge, and maybe some

00:31:20.081 --> 00:31:21.521
feely pitching wedges in there.

00:31:21.791 --> 00:31:22.511
Um.

00:31:23.306 --> 00:31:26.246
For this player as his big area of focus.

00:31:26.396 --> 00:31:29.246
And specifically for him, he had
an issue with front right pins.

00:31:29.606 --> 00:31:34.706
Um, just the nature of his ball
flight, the nature of his shape.

00:31:35.126 --> 00:31:38.006
Um, you know, if you're a player who
moves the ball right to left, which a lot

00:31:38.006 --> 00:31:43.136
of players tend to do with their irons,
especially shorter irons, um, that can

00:31:43.136 --> 00:31:45.086
be kind of a challenging whole location.

00:31:45.086 --> 00:31:48.266
'cause it might mean you're
starting it out outside the green.

00:31:48.656 --> 00:31:52.226
Um, and it might mean if you be a little
defensive, you're, you know, you're

00:31:52.226 --> 00:31:55.991
gonna, you're miss, you know, if you're
a little long, players tend to Ms.

00:31:55.991 --> 00:31:57.416
Long left or short, right?

00:31:57.686 --> 00:31:58.496
Unless you're a lefty.

00:31:58.496 --> 00:32:01.346
But, um, long left or short, right?

00:32:01.346 --> 00:32:03.176
Like it doesn't really
work for that pin location.

00:32:03.176 --> 00:32:04.286
At least for this player it wasn't.

00:32:04.286 --> 00:32:09.386
So, you know, we identified that and we
put a lot of times our interventions,

00:32:09.386 --> 00:32:11.516
and I've used this term a couple
times, intervention just means

00:32:11.516 --> 00:32:12.626
like, what are we gonna do about it?

00:32:13.196 --> 00:32:17.156
Um, is gonna be some form of a, of a game.

00:32:17.696 --> 00:32:19.796
Um, and the game kinda has
to have three principles.

00:32:19.796 --> 00:32:21.611
It's gotta be gamified, so you've
gotta be able to win or lose it.

00:32:22.301 --> 00:32:24.941
We're not just gonna hit 20
shots and go, okay, cool.

00:32:24.971 --> 00:32:25.451
Good job.

00:32:25.721 --> 00:32:26.741
You've gotta be able to win or lose.

00:32:26.741 --> 00:32:28.751
There's gotta be, you know,
we talked about pressure.

00:32:29.021 --> 00:32:33.041
No, we're never gonna replicate
Sunday at the master's pressure on

00:32:33.041 --> 00:32:37.421
the driving range in Mississippi, but
we're gonna make it worth something

00:32:37.511 --> 00:32:38.801
and we're gonna track it, right?

00:32:38.801 --> 00:32:42.161
So, um, so it's gotta be gamified,
it's gotta be representative.

00:32:42.251 --> 00:32:47.051
So if we're building like a win loss,
like a, working with this guy yesterday

00:32:47.051 --> 00:32:51.131
and we were saying, okay, you're gonna
drop a ball on the course and you've

00:32:51.131 --> 00:32:54.431
gotta hit it for that range, for the
100 to one 20, you've gotta hit it

00:32:54.431 --> 00:32:55.961
inside of 20 feet for it to be a win.

00:32:56.321 --> 00:32:59.381
So tour average from one 10
is about 20 feet proximity.

00:32:59.741 --> 00:33:02.591
So in the, in this, in this guy's
case, 'cause we're trying to get him

00:33:02.591 --> 00:33:05.891
back to average and then to above
average in this area, we just want

00:33:05.891 --> 00:33:07.451
him to beat to our average right now.

00:33:07.841 --> 00:33:11.591
Um, and so he is gotta hit that shot
inside of 20 feet to a tucked pin.

00:33:11.861 --> 00:33:14.411
Can't do that to the middle of
the green, but to a tucked pin.

00:33:14.921 --> 00:33:19.061
Um, he's gotta hit that inside of 20
feet and it's gotta be periodized,

00:33:19.061 --> 00:33:20.471
which I just hinted at, but.

00:33:21.236 --> 00:33:24.926
Right now, you know, we're setting
the, the ring basically at this

00:33:24.926 --> 00:33:27.386
and he's gotta hit it inside
there for the shot to be a win.

00:33:27.596 --> 00:33:30.116
And we'll add up, you know, he's
gotta do it five outta nine times.

00:33:30.116 --> 00:33:36.476
If we do it in a nine hole session, um,
he should get better at that over time.

00:33:36.626 --> 00:33:38.096
We should shrink that ring over time.

00:33:38.096 --> 00:33:40.886
So this concept of
periodization the same thing.

00:33:41.126 --> 00:33:42.506
The analogy I always
make is weightlifting.

00:33:42.506 --> 00:33:44.576
Like you don't go bench
1 35 your whole life.

00:33:44.576 --> 00:33:47.306
Like you start benching 1 35 and
hopefully at some point you get

00:33:47.306 --> 00:33:51.086
stronger and you go to 180 5 and
2 25 and you know, big strong guys

00:33:51.086 --> 00:33:52.616
like you, Aaron Bench 3 25, right?

00:33:52.616 --> 00:33:54.056
So, um,

00:33:54.081 --> 00:33:55.256
Aaron Goldberg: I was
gonna say I'm still working

00:33:56.301 --> 00:33:57.321
on 1 35, So, I don't know

00:33:57.321 --> 00:33:57.591
about

00:33:57.591 --> 00:33:57.981
that.

00:33:58.076 --> 00:34:02.096
Cory Jez: So, but the game should
evolve with the player over time, right?

00:34:02.096 --> 00:34:03.056
So every two, three weeks.

00:34:03.056 --> 00:34:06.206
So we set that win loss
threshold for the whole game.

00:34:06.926 --> 00:34:10.316
And if you beat it five times
in a row, we're gonna shrink.

00:34:11.126 --> 00:34:12.926
For, depending on what the game
is, but we're gonna shrink the

00:34:12.956 --> 00:34:16.556
ring or the number of reps that
you have to complete the task.

00:34:16.646 --> 00:34:19.106
Um, they're all, they can all be a
little different, whether it's putting

00:34:19.106 --> 00:34:20.576
or chipping or iron player driving.

00:34:20.906 --> 00:34:24.956
Um, but that, that's the periodization.

00:34:24.956 --> 00:34:27.176
So it's gamified, it's representative
and it's periodized, right?

00:34:27.176 --> 00:34:28.406
So you can win or lose.

00:34:28.916 --> 00:34:32.396
It's based on your statistics,
based on kind of like what

00:34:32.396 --> 00:34:33.986
our goals are from the course.

00:34:34.556 --> 00:34:35.846
And we're gonna track it over time.

00:34:35.846 --> 00:34:38.666
And if you're continually crushing it,
we're gonna make it tougher on you.

00:34:38.696 --> 00:34:40.196
'cause we want you to continue to grow.

00:34:40.556 --> 00:34:42.806
And if you're continually losing,
we're gonna loosen the ring too.

00:34:42.866 --> 00:34:45.746
That doesn't happen as much, but
like we would loosen the ring up too.

00:34:46.016 --> 00:34:49.496
And if a player's like really
struggling in this area, we don't want

00:34:49.496 --> 00:34:51.806
him like feeling, feeling like he's
banging his head against the wall.

00:34:51.836 --> 00:34:55.016
So all the literature shows
us that you should win.

00:34:55.046 --> 00:35:00.116
You know, with skill acquisition you
should win between 50 and 75% of the time.

00:35:00.266 --> 00:35:01.946
Somewhere in there is the sweet spot.

00:35:02.426 --> 00:35:04.406
And that's actually really
important to communicate the

00:35:04.406 --> 00:35:06.806
players when you're designing these
interventions with them because.

00:35:07.976 --> 00:35:10.826
These guys are super competitive and
there's certainly guys I work with

00:35:10.826 --> 00:35:15.176
that will like lose a game and will be
on the practice screen or the driving

00:35:15.176 --> 00:35:18.831
range and they shoot me a look or,
or maybe they use, you know, a, a

00:35:18.836 --> 00:35:21.926
four letter word and which is good.

00:35:22.016 --> 00:35:23.696
They're, they're competing, right?

00:35:23.696 --> 00:35:25.046
Which is what we want out of them.

00:35:25.046 --> 00:35:31.136
They care, um, that's gonna, you know,
drive that improvement like by being super

00:35:31.136 --> 00:35:33.176
focused and trying really hard to win.

00:35:33.506 --> 00:35:39.026
Um, but yeah, it's, so it's got,
it's gotta kind of meet all those,

00:35:39.116 --> 00:35:41.426
uh, all of those criteria for us.

00:35:41.486 --> 00:35:42.806
Um, with those parameters.

00:35:42.806 --> 00:35:44.791
There's, there's one we do in
shipping that's really fun.

00:35:45.116 --> 00:35:48.266
So there's one we do in shipping
where we set a bunch of shots around

00:35:48.266 --> 00:35:49.856
a green, around a practice green.

00:35:49.856 --> 00:35:52.526
You got multiple pins and you kind
of walk around, you never hit.

00:35:52.796 --> 00:35:55.406
Another principle here would be you
never hit the same shot twice, ideally.

00:35:55.766 --> 00:35:57.596
Um, and so.

00:35:58.631 --> 00:36:00.881
Uh, so randomized would
be another principle.

00:36:01.031 --> 00:36:03.311
And so in this game you end up
moving around the green to different

00:36:03.311 --> 00:36:06.461
spots and hitting at different pins,
hitting it inside of proximities.

00:36:06.461 --> 00:36:09.401
And those are all the levers we pull
on how hard we wanna make the game.

00:36:10.391 --> 00:36:13.361
But what happens in the shipping game
is you get further and further down the

00:36:13.361 --> 00:36:16.961
line and it's like, okay, maybe you have
three spots left and if you don't hit it

00:36:16.961 --> 00:36:20.291
in the ring, you gotta walk all the way
across the green to hit your next shot.

00:36:20.801 --> 00:36:23.411
And if you don't hit that one in the ring,
like you're down to two balls, you gotta

00:36:23.411 --> 00:36:25.061
walk all the way back to that same ball.

00:36:25.241 --> 00:36:25.421
Correct.

00:36:25.421 --> 00:36:28.511
And we call it the walk shame,
but it's even that little bit

00:36:28.511 --> 00:36:30.221
of pressure that we're applying.

00:36:30.611 --> 00:36:34.241
And because like these, again, I mean,
if I'm took you out there right now

00:36:34.241 --> 00:36:37.361
and do it like, and made you play this
chipping game, Aaron, like, it gets

00:36:37.361 --> 00:36:40.301
really frustrating and you really don't
wanna walk across the green again.

00:36:40.541 --> 00:36:44.741
And hopefully if you're someone who's
taking it seriously, like that's gonna

00:36:44.741 --> 00:36:48.521
make you focus, that's gonna make you lock
in even 5% more than you would've on a,

00:36:48.581 --> 00:36:50.081
you know, just a normal hit and giggle.

00:36:50.591 --> 00:36:54.281
And that's gonna be some of it that
helps it translate it and cauterize

00:36:54.281 --> 00:36:55.421
it in our mind and kind of our.

00:36:55.736 --> 00:36:59.186
The neuroplasticity in our, you
know, neural neurological system

00:36:59.186 --> 00:37:05.066
to lock in that, you know, that
experience and that hopefully

00:37:05.066 --> 00:37:05.876
improvement over time.

00:37:08.376 --> 00:37:11.376
Aaron Goldberg: Yeah, I mean, uh, I'm
laughing because I've seen you do that

00:37:11.376 --> 00:37:18.186
game with some of your players and it just
raises the level of focus in those times.

00:37:18.246 --> 00:37:23.076
And what, again, one of the biggest
things I notice between the top

00:37:23.076 --> 00:37:26.831
players in the world and even
like a top 50 player in the world.

00:37:27.786 --> 00:37:33.906
Is the level of intention and focus
on every single movement and shot

00:37:33.906 --> 00:37:35.916
that's hit in a practice round.

00:37:36.546 --> 00:37:40.416
I'm not even talking about the tournament
rounds and to even to the level of,

00:37:40.416 --> 00:37:45.186
I remember we were walking a practice
round at the PGA championship and a

00:37:45.186 --> 00:37:47.646
player's caddy dropped a ball next to it.

00:37:47.766 --> 00:37:52.536
Uh, he had dropped a, a hole marker
where a pin was going to be in the

00:37:52.536 --> 00:37:57.246
tournament and he, the caddy dropped
two balls for him to chip and the

00:37:57.246 --> 00:37:58.926
player goes, no, move that ball.

00:37:58.926 --> 00:38:00.036
I'll never hit it there.

00:38:00.066 --> 00:38:03.366
And I kind of like looked and listened,
kind of hear what he was gonna say.

00:38:03.366 --> 00:38:05.076
He goes, I know we can't be past that pin.

00:38:05.256 --> 00:38:07.416
He moved that ball two yards.

00:38:07.506 --> 00:38:12.156
That's how specific he was with his
chipping practice and intention,

00:38:12.156 --> 00:38:15.186
because he was like, I'll never hit
it there, but two yards from there.

00:38:15.186 --> 00:38:16.686
Yes, I, I could hit it there.

00:38:16.986 --> 00:38:19.246
And it was that specificity of like.

00:38:19.851 --> 00:38:25.191
How focused they are on every movement
matters and every practice shot

00:38:25.191 --> 00:38:27.111
matters from an energy standpoint.

00:38:27.651 --> 00:38:29.931
They're not gonna waste
anything out there.

00:38:30.021 --> 00:38:34.071
Um, so I, I love the parameters that
you set with those three or four

00:38:34.071 --> 00:38:36.051
principles around those practices.

00:38:36.051 --> 00:38:41.871
And, you know, I can imagine whether it
be wedge game and that a hundred to 125,

00:38:41.991 --> 00:38:43.641
I would imagine you're gonna see results.

00:38:45.206 --> 00:38:48.051
E everyone's gonna be different, but
like fairly quickly if you're really

00:38:48.051 --> 00:38:50.931
focusing on it because you're gonna
be able to identify what the issue

00:38:50.931 --> 00:38:54.891
is, whether it's just time spent on
it, whether it's a technical issue,

00:38:54.891 --> 00:38:57.831
whether it's a strategic issue.

00:38:58.101 --> 00:39:00.801
Uh, obviously the longer,
further away you are.

00:39:00.801 --> 00:39:04.191
Now, maybe technical comes into it
and there's more variance, but I think

00:39:04.191 --> 00:39:09.351
everyone can, can agree if you're on PJ
tour, like your wedges, you're gonna be

00:39:09.351 --> 00:39:13.341
able to get close if you're going with the
right strategy, have the right technique.

00:39:13.596 --> 00:39:16.596
You know, and, and have the right numbers.

00:39:16.656 --> 00:39:20.226
It, it's just a matter of focus
and I shouldn't say focus, but of

00:39:20.226 --> 00:39:21.906
intention on that, those shots.

00:39:21.906 --> 00:39:26.406
And so if you're starting to see that
periodization, so I didn't really know

00:39:26.406 --> 00:39:27.906
what that meant until we talked about it.

00:39:28.986 --> 00:39:31.956
Um, not, hey, over the whole season,
but maybe the last three weeks, this

00:39:31.956 --> 00:39:33.546
has gotten a little outta whack for me.

00:39:33.786 --> 00:39:37.056
Maybe not compared to everybody else,
but for me, this is a little outta whack.

00:39:37.206 --> 00:39:40.356
I need to go back and, Hey,
I know this course coming up.

00:39:40.356 --> 00:39:43.776
There's a lot of shots
between a hundred and 125.

00:39:44.076 --> 00:39:48.006
I need to make sure I
spend more time on this.

00:39:48.006 --> 00:39:52.806
Gamify it, have it be based, you
know, on what we're going to see.

00:39:53.376 --> 00:39:57.666
What, maybe, talk to me a bit, a little
bit about that in, I don't wanna get

00:39:57.966 --> 00:40:01.986
like into full on like course mapping
or prep mode, but like, how about just

00:40:01.986 --> 00:40:08.586
identifying, hey, going into the rest
of the fall, these guys have Utah.

00:40:08.976 --> 00:40:14.196
You know, this is gonna come out probably
the week of Utah, but Utah, Cabo, Bermuda,

00:40:14.286 --> 00:40:18.846
RSM or guys are gonna go be going into
the spring, into the, into January.

00:40:18.846 --> 00:40:21.126
You got Century, which
hopefully gets played.

00:40:21.126 --> 00:40:22.116
We don't know where yet.

00:40:22.176 --> 00:40:26.676
Um, but you got the three Palm Springs
courses, you got the two courses at

00:40:26.676 --> 00:40:30.456
Torry Pines, you got Riviera, you
got Phoenix Open at TPC, Scottsdale,

00:40:30.756 --> 00:40:32.946
like all different types of courses.

00:40:32.946 --> 00:40:38.046
But how about just identifying, hey,
this is a spot or an area of I'm

00:40:38.046 --> 00:40:42.306
gonna have more than average amount
of approach shots from this distance.

00:40:42.306 --> 00:40:46.026
Or, Hey, I know this course I'm
gonna hit a lot more drivers, or

00:40:46.026 --> 00:40:47.916
this course, I'm gonna hit a lot more

00:40:48.751 --> 00:40:48.931
Cory Jez: Yep.

00:40:48.966 --> 00:40:51.486
Aaron Goldberg: shots
from 2 50, 2 75 off the T.

00:40:51.636 --> 00:40:53.736
Um, how do you break that
down and then, and then turn

00:40:53.736 --> 00:40:55.596
that into that same systemized

00:40:55.596 --> 00:40:56.646
practice, if you will.

00:40:57.301 --> 00:40:57.571
Cory Jez: Yeah.

00:40:57.571 --> 00:41:00.481
You know, you hit on something really,
um, relevant at the beginning there,

00:41:00.481 --> 00:41:04.771
Aaron, in talking about, you know,
why we track this stuff over time.

00:41:04.771 --> 00:41:07.861
You know, again, compare this to the
player who maybe go hits 57 Aarons

00:41:07.861 --> 00:41:10.261
in a row and then calls it a day and
maybe feels like they hit a good, or

00:41:10.261 --> 00:41:11.401
feels like they didn't hit a good.

00:41:13.051 --> 00:41:15.481
This can help us identify when
there's a technical flaw or

00:41:15.481 --> 00:41:16.651
if there's a technical flaw.

00:41:16.891 --> 00:41:20.461
Like if I take someone through the
same, you know, or a similar like 100

00:41:20.461 --> 00:41:25.111
to 1 25, like a full wedge combine
every day for two weeks, right?

00:41:25.111 --> 00:41:27.001
It's only 18 shots or so.

00:41:27.031 --> 00:41:30.571
But, um, we did that every day for
two weeks and we never passed it.

00:41:31.031 --> 00:41:33.521
And we kept loosening parameters and
we still like, weren't passing it.

00:41:33.521 --> 00:41:36.011
And we were like losing, losing
strokes compared to the tour

00:41:36.251 --> 00:41:37.331
tour numbers and all of that.

00:41:37.331 --> 00:41:39.671
Like we clearly at that
point have a technical flaw.

00:41:39.701 --> 00:41:42.251
You, you don't even need two weeks
or three weeks to identify that.

00:41:42.251 --> 00:41:45.041
Like you could probably identify it in,
you know, a couple of sessions there.

00:41:45.041 --> 00:41:48.311
And one of the nice things about
TrackMan, if you use it appropriately,

00:41:48.521 --> 00:41:51.521
is it's gonna give us like a much
higher sample size of data than waiting

00:41:51.521 --> 00:41:52.721
to go play a bunch of tournaments.

00:41:52.721 --> 00:41:56.441
'cause you're, you might only hit
three of those around in a tournament,

00:41:56.621 --> 00:41:58.121
uh, or four, something like that.

00:41:58.121 --> 00:41:59.321
You have 18 approach shots.

00:41:59.591 --> 00:42:03.221
Um, and maybe a quarter of them
are, you know, 100 to 1 25 or

00:42:03.221 --> 00:42:04.721
one 50 depending on the course.

00:42:04.961 --> 00:42:06.281
Toy Pines you'll have like none.

00:42:06.611 --> 00:42:13.511
Um, and then we can, we can get that kind
of signal a lot quicker, you know, bring

00:42:13.511 --> 00:42:15.191
the swing coach in, talk about that.

00:42:15.431 --> 00:42:17.831
You know, something they're probably
already aware of, but like, boy,

00:42:17.831 --> 00:42:20.591
we really need to figure out a
three quarter pitching wedge.

00:42:20.861 --> 00:42:23.561
We do not, we are really
having trouble with that 1 28

00:42:23.561 --> 00:42:25.301
number or whatever it might be.

00:42:25.361 --> 00:42:25.691
Right.

00:42:25.691 --> 00:42:27.641
Which is like a hammer gap, but.

00:42:28.151 --> 00:42:29.081
It's a green that's gonna spin.

00:42:29.081 --> 00:42:32.681
I can't hit a hammer gap, so I've
gotta like hit a handsy pitch and

00:42:33.461 --> 00:42:34.781
I just do, do not have that shot.

00:42:34.811 --> 00:42:37.241
'cause every time it comes up in the
combine, I lose a quarter of a stroke.

00:42:37.631 --> 00:42:37.871
Right?

00:42:37.871 --> 00:42:41.531
So you could by, by doing it in
that standardized way, you can

00:42:41.531 --> 00:42:43.811
identify that so much quicker, right?

00:42:44.471 --> 00:42:46.661
Whether it's me looking at the
reports afterwards, the player

00:42:46.661 --> 00:42:49.601
just like, this is always coming
up and I'm always getting a grade.

00:42:49.601 --> 00:42:52.931
So I'm like, it's just, it's just
resonating with them a lot quicker.

00:42:53.231 --> 00:42:57.611
Um, and to your point, like we do see
when it's not a technical flaw, so

00:42:57.611 --> 00:43:00.371
sometimes it might be like, I need
to add a new shot to my arsenal.

00:43:00.371 --> 00:43:03.701
I'm gonna go work with my swing
coach and try to add this shot to

00:43:03.701 --> 00:43:07.231
like, I need to take 2000 RPM off
a pitching wedge How am I do that?

00:43:07.231 --> 00:43:09.341
I've never done that before,
or whatever it might be.

00:43:10.151 --> 00:43:13.121
gonna it's something that's just
like, man, they've got all the skills,

00:43:13.121 --> 00:43:15.491
they've got all the biomechanics for
it, which obviously these guys are

00:43:15.491 --> 00:43:20.201
uber talented, but they just don't
have, you know, the reps or they

00:43:20.201 --> 00:43:22.336
haven't tried to hit that shot a bunch
and now we're asking 'em to hit it.

00:43:22.661 --> 00:43:25.361
Yeah, we see that come
up pretty quickly, right?

00:43:25.361 --> 00:43:28.811
So this 100 to 125 example we've
been talking about, you know, that

00:43:28.811 --> 00:43:29.891
was at the end of the playoffs.

00:43:29.891 --> 00:43:31.091
We kind of identified that.

00:43:31.541 --> 00:43:37.421
Um, and at Napa and Sanderson, this player
went out and I think at Napa he went

00:43:37.421 --> 00:43:43.451
like seven-for-seven green in Reg from
that yardage, um, with average proximity.

00:43:43.451 --> 00:43:45.611
So he gained strokes 'cause
he never missed a green,

00:43:46.001 --> 00:43:47.591
never shortsighted himself.

00:43:47.921 --> 00:43:51.071
Um, and had field average, you know,
was average for the week in terms

00:43:51.071 --> 00:43:52.271
of proximity from that yardage.

00:43:52.271 --> 00:43:55.181
So he picked up some strokes, certainly
compared to where he had been previously.

00:43:55.451 --> 00:43:57.641
Then at Sanderson, he beat
proximity by like five feet.

00:43:57.731 --> 00:44:00.461
Um, and he had really good showings
at both those events as well.

00:44:00.761 --> 00:44:04.781
Um, Sanderson especially, uh, both, both
those courses have, you know, a little

00:44:04.781 --> 00:44:06.071
more bias towards the short irons.

00:44:06.071 --> 00:44:11.981
They're not super, super long,
um, golf courses and so we should

00:44:11.981 --> 00:44:16.211
see, you know, those interventions
pay off relatively quickly.

00:44:16.211 --> 00:44:19.241
That is not a multi-month, you know,
it's a, that's on a week by week basis.

00:44:19.241 --> 00:44:21.701
We should see kind of like
little step function increases.

00:44:22.346 --> 00:44:23.756
Um, in those things.

00:44:23.756 --> 00:44:26.366
So it, uh, that's worth pointing out.

00:44:26.366 --> 00:44:29.876
Like it's really good to track this
stuff because it allows you to see like,

00:44:30.026 --> 00:44:31.406
boy, I just can't execute this thing.

00:44:31.406 --> 00:44:35.366
Or if, if I can, like, I should
see it kind of quickly get better.

00:44:35.366 --> 00:44:37.166
And, you know, we, we see that
all the time with players.

00:44:37.436 --> 00:44:41.246
But on the, on the, on the preparation
side, um, you know, really week to

00:44:41.246 --> 00:44:44.366
week, you know, using the West Coast
swing as the example there, I mean,

00:44:44.366 --> 00:44:47.306
God, different types of grasses,
different types of golf courses.

00:44:47.306 --> 00:44:52.166
You go to Sony, which is a Seth Rainer
old school dog legs, like you're moving

00:44:52.166 --> 00:44:56.186
three woods and like two irons off the
tees there and like trying to shape shots.

00:44:56.396 --> 00:45:00.206
The Bermuda, depending on if
it's three inches, like, can be

00:45:00.206 --> 00:45:03.686
kind of gnarly, like Jumper City,
trying to read Bermuda lies there.

00:45:03.836 --> 00:45:08.786
And you go to, you know, Tory, which
totally different grass, you know,

00:45:09.206 --> 00:45:12.236
Riviera, which is, uh, kakuy obviously.

00:45:12.236 --> 00:45:13.616
And um.

00:45:14.441 --> 00:45:17.141
You know, really low, rough,
typically very tough fairways to hit.

00:45:17.141 --> 00:45:18.911
Obviously great green
greenside surrounds there.

00:45:18.911 --> 00:45:20.501
A lot of chipping happens at Riviera.

00:45:20.801 --> 00:45:23.021
Um, relatively low green
and regulation course.

00:45:23.021 --> 00:45:26.021
So each week we're gonna kind of put
together a package on the golf course.

00:45:26.201 --> 00:45:29.681
And we do it from like, yeah, we do the
individual holes, obviously the core

00:45:29.681 --> 00:45:33.431
strategy about specific tee shots and
specific pin locations and targets,

00:45:33.911 --> 00:45:37.181
but also like the macroeconomic, like
what is the course going to ask of us?

00:45:37.181 --> 00:45:41.111
And so that tends to look like, you
know, what are the approach yardages

00:45:41.681 --> 00:45:45.161
plus or minus kind of a typical tour
week, because again, a guy's still

00:45:45.161 --> 00:45:49.061
gonna hit four irons Monday through
Wednesday, but like, you know, we're

00:45:49.061 --> 00:45:50.381
not gonna the Mexico open anymore.

00:45:50.381 --> 00:45:52.961
But you go to the Mexico open,
you're hitting four irons everywhere

00:45:52.961 --> 00:45:54.131
around the golf course, right?

00:45:54.131 --> 00:45:54.881
Or Tory Pines.

00:45:54.881 --> 00:45:59.441
You're certainly gonna hit a lot more for
irons than you would at probably, um, TPC

00:45:59.441 --> 00:46:02.231
Scottsdale or uh, pebble Beach, certainly.

00:46:02.411 --> 00:46:02.741
Right?

00:46:03.011 --> 00:46:07.721
Um, and so, um, you know,
on a relative basis, what is

00:46:07.721 --> 00:46:08.831
it gonna ask from us from a.

00:46:09.656 --> 00:46:12.596
From a yardage standpoint for
our approach game, um, around

00:46:12.596 --> 00:46:14.336
the greens, what types of shots?

00:46:14.396 --> 00:46:18.926
So literally just breaking down like short
and long fairway, uh, rough and bunker.

00:46:19.286 --> 00:46:22.166
Um, you know, Tory Pines has
a lot more rough chipping.

00:46:22.646 --> 00:46:24.266
Uh, pebble has a lot of rough chipping.

00:46:24.566 --> 00:46:28.676
Um, waste management is like
Oversedated, you know, seated

00:46:28.976 --> 00:46:31.856
obviously, um, because they're
playing there so early in the year.

00:46:32.126 --> 00:46:34.436
Um, so where's that
distribution of shots fall?

00:46:34.436 --> 00:46:36.386
So what should I be working
on on the practice Green?

00:46:36.686 --> 00:46:38.786
Um, obviously once we're on the
course, we're looking at the

00:46:38.786 --> 00:46:41.636
specific shots to the specific pin
locations, those types of things.

00:46:41.636 --> 00:46:43.166
And, and then the putting
distribution as well.

00:46:43.166 --> 00:46:48.896
So if you take a really, uh, high green
and regulation golf course, um, like

00:46:48.896 --> 00:46:51.656
we have this week coming up in Utah, I
forget the number, it's, but it's well

00:46:51.656 --> 00:46:55.196
into the seventies, maybe even close to
80% green and Reg for the field last year.

00:46:55.556 --> 00:46:57.086
So like everyone's hitting the greens.

00:46:57.086 --> 00:47:01.946
We got a lot of, like, it becomes a 15 to
25, 30 foot putting contest essentially.

00:47:02.216 --> 00:47:05.426
Um, you, the fairways are very wide there.

00:47:05.606 --> 00:47:06.296
If you, if.

00:47:06.806 --> 00:47:08.756
You missed the fairway, you're
pretty much taking a penalty

00:47:08.756 --> 00:47:09.926
stroke 'cause it's desert.

00:47:09.986 --> 00:47:12.596
But um, very high fairway rate.

00:47:12.596 --> 00:47:13.886
Very high green and reg rate.

00:47:14.156 --> 00:47:17.516
Um, so being able to make
mid length long putts.

00:47:17.516 --> 00:47:21.716
So we wanna work on like speed control
for mid length, long, mid length, long

00:47:21.716 --> 00:47:23.546
putts in our prep during the week.

00:47:23.546 --> 00:47:25.226
And we also wanna get on the course.

00:47:25.916 --> 00:47:28.586
We don't wanna grind over six
footers like we would at Sawgrass.

00:47:28.586 --> 00:47:31.046
'cause sawgrass you're gonna
miss a bunch of greens and have

00:47:31.046 --> 00:47:32.336
a bunch of six footers for par.

00:47:32.546 --> 00:47:36.026
We want to hit like where are the
kind of the common spots that I'm

00:47:36.026 --> 00:47:39.356
gonna have that 20 to 25 footer
for birdie to each of these pin

00:47:39.356 --> 00:47:41.816
locations and try to drill those in.

00:47:41.816 --> 00:47:45.986
'cause we may even see some, when,
when we go out on the golf course,

00:47:45.986 --> 00:47:49.106
we're looking for stuff like, boy
this is kind of a common area I

00:47:49.106 --> 00:47:50.576
could see myself having a putt from.

00:47:50.576 --> 00:47:52.526
Or we can see that in the data explicitly.

00:47:52.976 --> 00:47:56.936
And boy that putt does something totally
different than I thought it would.

00:47:56.936 --> 00:47:58.556
And I'm gonna put that in my book, right?

00:47:58.556 --> 00:48:01.616
'cause the players are allowed to
observe, you know, through their own eyes

00:48:01.616 --> 00:48:02.936
and their own feet and what they see.

00:48:02.936 --> 00:48:03.956
And they can write that in their book.

00:48:03.956 --> 00:48:04.766
They obviously can't use.

00:48:05.321 --> 00:48:09.221
Any external implements or green reading
tools nowadays, but we can go say,

00:48:09.221 --> 00:48:13.361
Hey, here's the common spots, and when
you see something from a common spot

00:48:13.361 --> 00:48:16.751
so we know it's got a high likelihood
of coming up that really like breaks

00:48:16.751 --> 00:48:20.141
in a way that's different than you'd
expect, like that should probably

00:48:20.141 --> 00:48:21.581
make it into you in your Caddy's book.

00:48:21.581 --> 00:48:22.571
Everyone's got a little bit of a

00:48:22.571 --> 00:48:23.471
different process there.

00:48:23.646 --> 00:48:26.436
Aaron Goldberg: Yeah, I think just
even understanding going into a, a

00:48:26.436 --> 00:48:29.526
week, like let's say I'm reviewing
this, I'm the player, I'm reviewing

00:48:29.526 --> 00:48:34.026
this Thursday, Friday, the week
before, you know, it's the off week.

00:48:34.686 --> 00:48:36.366
Utah's gonna be next week.

00:48:36.726 --> 00:48:40.326
And so I'm reviewing all right, this
is, and you know, ideally, actually

00:48:40.326 --> 00:48:43.866
you should probably be reviewing this
two or three weeks ahead of time so

00:48:43.866 --> 00:48:46.326
that you're spending the whole week
leading up to it, practicing this.

00:48:46.776 --> 00:48:51.066
Um, but even just going into mapping out
what my practice round's gonna be like

00:48:51.186 --> 00:48:54.546
knowing, hey, I need to be hitting a lot
of putts from the middle of the greens.

00:48:54.996 --> 00:48:57.126
Understanding where
those, you know, we have.

00:48:57.426 --> 00:48:59.946
Last year's pins, we know where
these are gonna go and being

00:48:59.946 --> 00:49:01.266
able to make some of those notes.

00:49:01.266 --> 00:49:06.786
And, um, I think one thing I've seen,
and you know, correct me if I'm wrong or

00:49:06.786 --> 00:49:11.496
gimme insight, but it seems like this has
helped, this will help some of the younger

00:49:11.496 --> 00:49:16.326
players shorten their learning curve
of getting out on tour and learning new

00:49:16.326 --> 00:49:20.136
courses, but also learning, playing the
same course 10 years in a row, something

00:49:20.136 --> 00:49:21.786
like that, that these veterans have.

00:49:22.056 --> 00:49:27.756
But at the same time, I've also seen where
veterans being able to use this data and

00:49:27.756 --> 00:49:35.231
the analytics of it to put numbers and,
and kind of quantify some of their fields

00:49:35.826 --> 00:49:41.916
where, hey, I know like this course is
gonna have a lot of longer approach shots,

00:49:42.126 --> 00:49:47.466
but they don't quite have the, the actual
numbers behind it where this analysis

00:49:47.466 --> 00:49:49.431
can say, Hey, yeah, you, you're correct.

00:49:50.271 --> 00:49:55.341
And the numbers you need to be working on
is one 90 to two 10 or one 90 to two 15

00:49:55.671 --> 00:50:00.921
as opposed to like, Hey, I think I hit a
lot more like six, seven, and five irons.

00:50:01.131 --> 00:50:01.491
You know?

00:50:02.091 --> 00:50:05.091
Well that's great, but like, why
not dig even deeper and actually

00:50:05.091 --> 00:50:06.651
know what those numbers are.

00:50:06.981 --> 00:50:10.521
Um, when I first got into business, I read
a book called Measure What Matters, and

00:50:10.521 --> 00:50:15.561
it's just all about like, if you want to
improve, it's measuring what you what and

00:50:15.561 --> 00:50:20.211
quantifying what you're trying to improve
on, and then constantly assessing that.

00:50:20.781 --> 00:50:21.071
Cory Jez: Yeah.

00:50:21.351 --> 00:50:25.491
Aaron Goldberg: And I think that the
same applies if, if not even more So

00:50:25.491 --> 00:50:30.861
when it comes to sports analytics,
whether it be basketball, soccer, you

00:50:30.861 --> 00:50:36.651
know, obviously in golf this data can,
there's then an abundance of data at

00:50:36.651 --> 00:50:38.361
this point and now it's figuring out

00:50:38.361 --> 00:50:38.661
how, what's

00:50:38.661 --> 00:50:39.801
the best way to use it to improve.

00:50:40.286 --> 00:50:41.546
Cory Jez: Yeah, you're, you're spot on.

00:50:41.546 --> 00:50:45.026
Like the early, in the early
knots, the problem was like

00:50:45.026 --> 00:50:46.586
collecting this information, right?

00:50:46.586 --> 00:50:49.016
Or if you're a college team
right now, your problem is

00:50:49.016 --> 00:50:50.216
collecting this information.

00:50:50.576 --> 00:50:54.146
Um, but at the PGA tour level, it's
what, what do I do with this information?

00:50:54.146 --> 00:50:56.786
How do I, again, I'm gonna go out
there on Tuesday, I'm gonna be at

00:50:56.786 --> 00:50:59.906
the course for about six hours,
you know, what are we doing?

00:50:59.906 --> 00:51:02.156
And so, using Utah as an example,
I just pulled their stuff up.

00:51:02.516 --> 00:51:02.966
Um.

00:51:04.226 --> 00:51:05.306
Inside of one 50.

00:51:05.306 --> 00:51:07.736
So, you know, approach starts at 50 yards.

00:51:07.736 --> 00:51:12.206
Everything inside of 50 is scrambling, but
so from 50 to one 50 is, is de-emphasized

00:51:12.206 --> 00:51:17.306
At Utah, I mean, you, you only have 24
30, you know, about 30% of your shots are

00:51:17.306 --> 00:51:21.416
gonna come inside of one 50, 30% of your
approach shots compared to 28% of your

00:51:21.416 --> 00:51:28.076
approach shots are gonna come from one
50 to 1 75 at um, at Black Desert Resort.

00:51:28.346 --> 00:51:30.956
And that's 8% higher than tour average.

00:51:30.956 --> 00:51:34.376
So a normal tour week is like one
in five shots come from there.

00:51:34.376 --> 00:51:37.436
And this week it's gonna be about
one in four, almost like one in three

00:51:37.706 --> 00:51:40.616
shots coming from one 50 to 1 75.

00:51:40.646 --> 00:51:45.596
And then so one 50 to 2 25 are all
higher than to our average this week.

00:51:45.596 --> 00:51:47.816
So like, what are we gonna do on Tuesday?

00:51:48.026 --> 00:51:49.916
We're gonna work through one 50 to 2 25.

00:51:49.916 --> 00:51:51.536
Like yeah, we're gonna
work through our bag.

00:51:51.716 --> 00:51:54.746
Yeah, we're gonna work on the feels and
the general things we're working on.

00:51:54.746 --> 00:51:57.356
We're not taking away from what
we're doing with our coach.

00:51:57.356 --> 00:51:59.816
We're not taking away from where
we're trying to get our swing to be.

00:52:00.371 --> 00:52:03.281
But then, okay, we've done each of
those from like 30 or 45 minutes.

00:52:03.371 --> 00:52:05.651
What are we spending the last
30 or 45 minutes on the range?

00:52:05.651 --> 00:52:09.221
We're spending it in that,
like, in those distance buckets,

00:52:09.641 --> 00:52:10.811
uh, you know, at those times.

00:52:10.811 --> 00:52:14.711
And if it's a course with really firm
greens, we might say, Hey, like, how do

00:52:14.711 --> 00:52:19.601
we take, you know, get some extra apex
on these and, and practice bringing

00:52:19.601 --> 00:52:21.671
these down a little bit softer, right?

00:52:21.671 --> 00:52:25.481
If it's really soft greens, like
talking about how am I gonna get to

00:52:25.481 --> 00:52:26.891
back pins with soft greens, right?

00:52:26.891 --> 00:52:30.821
Which is a really challenging thing,
uh, for these guys who generate so much

00:52:30.821 --> 00:52:32.411
spin, obviously with, with the golf ball.

00:52:32.741 --> 00:52:37.151
Um, and so whether that be a, you know,
sometimes that's a TrackMan combine

00:52:37.151 --> 00:52:38.711
we make specific to the yardages.

00:52:38.711 --> 00:52:40.961
I mean, you know, again, we're
sitting on top of all the data.

00:52:40.961 --> 00:52:44.081
Aaron, we pretty much know how far
you're gonna have in every green.

00:52:44.141 --> 00:52:47.321
Like yeah, tweak it up and down for
wind, tweak it up and down for firmness.

00:52:47.321 --> 00:52:49.601
Like we know how far you hit
it off the t We know how far

00:52:49.601 --> 00:52:50.861
the field hits into this green.

00:52:50.861 --> 00:52:54.581
Like we know that, you know, on
certain holes nobody hits driver.

00:52:54.701 --> 00:52:54.941
So.

00:52:56.111 --> 00:52:59.171
You know, we don't just take the
distance, the hole and subtract 300

00:52:59.171 --> 00:53:00.311
to get your approach charges, right?

00:53:00.311 --> 00:53:02.771
Like we know very, very specifically
where you're gonna hit from.

00:53:03.161 --> 00:53:08.561
And so we tailor that preparation that
way, um, to again, like, you're gonna

00:53:08.561 --> 00:53:11.201
spend time doing something, let's
do the thing that's gonna be most

00:53:11.201 --> 00:53:15.371
impactful and kind of give you the
most R-O-A-R-O-I, uh, for your time.

00:53:15.371 --> 00:53:19.211
So, and then obviously all that
still trickles into what do we

00:53:19.211 --> 00:53:21.461
do when we actually get on the
course, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday?

00:53:21.791 --> 00:53:23.321
How are we gonna make that time efficient?

00:53:23.681 --> 00:53:25.331
Um, and some of those things.

00:53:25.331 --> 00:53:30.431
So yeah, all, all of that, you know,
again, these little margins matter so,

00:53:30.431 --> 00:53:31.781
so much over the course of the year.

00:53:31.781 --> 00:53:33.431
You know, go pull up PGA tour.com.

00:53:33.821 --> 00:53:38.081
Strokes gained, and the
difference between 30 and 51 is,

00:53:38.351 --> 00:53:39.491
you know, really, really big.

00:53:39.491 --> 00:53:43.691
And now, you know, we have this kind of
extra benchmark with, you know, top 50,

00:53:44.141 --> 00:53:48.431
um, getting, getting a lot of, uh, a lot
of spoils, um, at the end of the year.

00:53:49.896 --> 00:53:50.346
Aaron Goldberg: Yeah.

00:53:51.126 --> 00:53:51.336
Yeah.

00:53:51.336 --> 00:53:55.056
I mean the whole theme of, you know,
us having these conversations is

00:53:55.056 --> 00:53:58.671
how do players create and convert
their talent into value and.

00:53:59.511 --> 00:54:03.801
If we're just relying on
talent alone, then, you know,

00:54:03.801 --> 00:54:05.601
we're leaving a lot out there.

00:54:06.021 --> 00:54:10.041
You know, I'm, again, not trying to
compare myself by any means, but I

00:54:10.041 --> 00:54:14.991
look back at my fledgling pro golf
career, career, you know, 15 years ago,

00:54:14.991 --> 00:54:19.521
and to have this type of direction to
practice around, like, I look back and

00:54:20.511 --> 00:54:23.031
I had no clue what I was practicing.

00:54:23.031 --> 00:54:26.451
You know, I thought I did, I thought I
was practicing efficiently, but it was

00:54:26.451 --> 00:54:30.081
like, yeah, I'm gonna, my quantification
was how much time was I spending?

00:54:30.561 --> 00:54:32.571
Uh, and which is a bad barometer.

00:54:32.751 --> 00:54:35.991
Um, obviously you can't be lazy,
but that's a bad barometer.

00:54:36.561 --> 00:54:41.751
You said, you mentioned one thing about,
uh, like a college, like availability

00:54:41.751 --> 00:54:46.581
of data, like a college team or player,
you know, to some extent I would imagine

00:54:46.581 --> 00:54:48.231
the Korn Ferry tour players as well.

00:54:48.231 --> 00:54:51.861
Like I'm a Korn Ferry tour player moving
up to the PGA tour, like obviously

00:54:51.861 --> 00:54:53.841
there's, there's some shot linked data.

00:54:54.051 --> 00:54:56.026
I'm not sure you know how that's compar.

00:54:56.961 --> 00:54:59.961
But let's even go a step
further, like a college player.

00:55:00.681 --> 00:55:05.721
What's the best way for them to try to
look at analytics, you know, at at a, at

00:55:05.721 --> 00:55:09.051
a high level to even start this process?

00:55:09.051 --> 00:55:10.191
Is it, is it shot?

00:55:10.191 --> 00:55:10.851
Like shot?

00:55:10.911 --> 00:55:12.771
Uh, sorry.

00:55:12.831 --> 00:55:13.521
Um,

00:55:15.156 --> 00:55:15.986
Cory Jez: Kinda shot track.

00:55:17.331 --> 00:55:18.801
Aaron Goldberg: I'm Thank you.

00:55:18.861 --> 00:55:19.911
Shot tracker.

00:55:19.911 --> 00:55:21.291
Is it track man?

00:55:21.291 --> 00:55:24.891
Like what, what type of data
can they get their hands on?

00:55:24.891 --> 00:55:28.611
Like, they're probably, they're not gonna
be able to get on course data from, uh,

00:55:28.611 --> 00:55:30.051
a college event or something like that.

00:55:30.051 --> 00:55:32.631
But is it going through
combines on a track man?

00:55:32.631 --> 00:55:35.451
Like, what's, what's a good way
for them to get even started

00:55:35.451 --> 00:55:35.841
down this

00:55:35.841 --> 00:55:36.681
road of analytics?

00:55:37.451 --> 00:55:42.701
Cory Jez: Yeah, I, I think, um, it, it's
a different application, but, but still a

00:55:42.701 --> 00:55:44.531
lot of the same principles really apply.

00:55:44.831 --> 00:55:47.351
Um, you know, your core strategy
is gonna be very different, right?

00:55:47.351 --> 00:55:51.251
Your core strategy, just by definition,
unless you happen to be playing an

00:55:51.251 --> 00:55:54.791
event, uh, at a place that's held a
PGA tour event, you're not gonna have

00:55:54.791 --> 00:56:00.281
that very specific, um, course hole
shot level data, you know, down to

00:56:00.281 --> 00:56:03.041
the inch of wherever your golf ball's
been, and then what the proximity

00:56:03.041 --> 00:56:04.991
was from those spots, and da da dah.

00:56:04.991 --> 00:56:10.301
And so, um, and this is the same for,
you know, a guy playing many tours

00:56:10.301 --> 00:56:13.691
or even KornFerry, it's pretty much
analogous to, to a Korn Ferry player,

00:56:13.691 --> 00:56:16.511
you know, the information they have,
obviously a little bit of data capture.

00:56:16.946 --> 00:56:19.946
Um, at the whole level on the Korn
Ferry tour, but, but not getting

00:56:19.946 --> 00:56:21.836
that same, um, granular detail.

00:56:21.836 --> 00:56:25.856
And so what we say to, you know, from a
core strategy standpoint and the college

00:56:25.856 --> 00:56:29.816
teams that I work with, um, we're really
having players build custom dis what I

00:56:29.816 --> 00:56:31.616
call a custom dispersion profile, right?

00:56:31.616 --> 00:56:34.376
So you're, you're going through some
combines on track, man, you're hitting

00:56:34.376 --> 00:56:38.426
shots in a game like context, but we're
basically doing it as data capture and

00:56:38.426 --> 00:56:43.016
doing it to understand like, because if
you're an elite four iron player, long

00:56:43.016 --> 00:56:47.216
iron player, and a kind of a mediocre
wedge player relative to your skill,

00:56:47.486 --> 00:56:51.266
um, that should in kind of inform
your targeting strategies, right?

00:56:51.296 --> 00:56:55.226
Um, and the thing to get a little
mathy, the thing that people

00:56:55.226 --> 00:56:56.756
need to understand is dispersion.

00:56:56.936 --> 00:56:59.606
Although we always see it on like
TrackMan reports as a ring, right?

00:56:59.606 --> 00:57:00.506
It looks something like that.

00:57:00.506 --> 00:57:02.486
Or maybe a little tilted,
something like that.

00:57:02.816 --> 00:57:07.346
It, it, that ring implies a uniform
distribution, like an even chance of

00:57:07.346 --> 00:57:10.826
ending up somewhere, you know, plus
or minus 10 yards of your target.

00:57:11.156 --> 00:57:13.496
But what we all know intuitively
is the ball does not have

00:57:13.496 --> 00:57:14.966
an even chance of ending up.

00:57:15.626 --> 00:57:19.586
You know, uniformly in that window, it's
gonna take a, what we call a Gaussian or a

00:57:19.586 --> 00:57:22.046
bell curve or a normal distribution shape.

00:57:22.076 --> 00:57:25.766
And so, 'cause if I have a col, even
a college player, if I have them hit

00:57:25.796 --> 00:57:30.476
a 207 irons in enough sample size
and I plot where they all finish, I

00:57:30.476 --> 00:57:33.176
will eventually end up with a bell
curve centered around their target.

00:57:33.176 --> 00:57:35.186
Or maybe, you know, a yard or two right?

00:57:35.186 --> 00:57:38.726
Or a yard or two left, depending on what
their small bias is around that target.

00:57:38.726 --> 00:57:43.436
And so you actually want to know, again,
getting a little mathy, but you actually

00:57:43.451 --> 00:57:46.526
wanna know the width of that bell curve.

00:57:46.616 --> 00:57:49.406
That is what's informing
your targeting strategy.

00:57:49.676 --> 00:57:53.276
Um, because you can know what is one and
two standard deviations off of your mean.

00:57:53.696 --> 00:57:56.546
And that can basically tell you
like, Hey, when I hit a good shot,

00:57:56.546 --> 00:57:58.091
how often do I kind of miss aby?

00:57:58.136 --> 00:58:00.476
Is it three yards, four
yards, five yards, six yards?

00:58:00.746 --> 00:58:04.691
And then when I hit, like most of
my shots, uh, how far do I miss buy?

00:58:04.691 --> 00:58:04.811
Is it.

00:58:05.381 --> 00:58:07.781
7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 yards, right?

00:58:08.021 --> 00:58:09.101
Or what does that number look like?

00:58:09.101 --> 00:58:12.041
So one in two standard deviations
of your, you know, dispersion

00:58:12.041 --> 00:58:15.101
profile can pretty much inform you.

00:58:15.731 --> 00:58:17.951
'cause then you need just need to
understand is the up and down really

00:58:17.951 --> 00:58:21.071
difficult or is the up and down
really easy, or is it a hazard?

00:58:21.131 --> 00:58:21.281
Right?

00:58:21.311 --> 00:58:23.981
'cause if it's a hazard, I basically need
0% chance that I'm gonna go in there.

00:58:24.461 --> 00:58:29.141
Uh, if it's a, you know, very kind
of stock, like I think I'm gonna chip

00:58:29.141 --> 00:58:33.071
this in pretty easy, up and down green
light, then I can probably just aim

00:58:33.071 --> 00:58:34.631
one standard deviation off the target.

00:58:34.961 --> 00:58:37.451
Uh, which I know, but that is 'cause
I've done a bunch of work on track

00:58:37.451 --> 00:58:40.631
man, and like, you know, you and
I, Aaron are similar level golfers,

00:58:40.631 --> 00:58:43.931
but we have different parts of our
game that we're good at, right?

00:58:43.931 --> 00:58:47.831
So you and I should not have the same
targeting parameters necessarily,

00:58:48.131 --> 00:58:49.811
uh, when we go play competitive golf.

00:58:49.871 --> 00:58:54.131
And so building in all of that specific
to the player, because we've got

00:58:54.131 --> 00:58:55.271
all the resources in college, right?

00:58:55.276 --> 00:58:57.791
You, you, you've got the track
man, you've got obviously the

00:58:57.791 --> 00:59:00.356
hitting bays and, and most of these
programs now having, you know, a.

00:59:01.676 --> 00:59:04.466
a course themselves for better part of a
day and, and all these types of things.

00:59:04.466 --> 00:59:07.316
So you can do, I actually think the
team setting's really interesting.

00:59:07.346 --> 00:59:12.266
You know, you get a little bit more
kind of freedom and economies of scale

00:59:12.266 --> 00:59:14.336
to work on this stuff more broadly.

00:59:14.666 --> 00:59:17.426
You know, it's very hard in a Tuesday
practice around to go out and like

00:59:17.516 --> 00:59:21.236
fire a bunch of wedges at tucked back,
left pins in a course setting, right?

00:59:21.236 --> 00:59:24.206
Like it doesn't really work on the PGA
tour, but a college team, like if you're,

00:59:24.206 --> 00:59:27.686
if your coach is kind of dialed into
this stuff, you totally could spend time

00:59:28.106 --> 00:59:30.176
working on those types of things, right?

00:59:30.506 --> 00:59:33.326
Um, so I think from a core strategy
standpoint, it's just creating that

00:59:33.386 --> 00:59:37.556
player specificity through dispersion,
profiling, um, and then applying that to

00:59:37.556 --> 00:59:40.346
the specific golf course kind of through
what you read in the practice rounds.

00:59:40.346 --> 00:59:43.556
And again, that's like having a
checklist in the practice round, looking

00:59:43.556 --> 00:59:46.796
at the four corners of the green,
looking at historical pin locations.

00:59:46.796 --> 00:59:50.846
Like, like these college coaches,
I, I don't, I, I assume they're

00:59:50.846 --> 00:59:52.976
saving last year's pin sheets 'cause
they're gonna go back to the same

00:59:52.976 --> 00:59:55.466
tournaments and save the pin sheets
so you know where they were last year.

00:59:55.616 --> 00:59:56.546
Throw those cups down.

00:59:56.546 --> 00:59:58.016
I mean, we take it for granted on the PGA.

00:59:58.661 --> 01:00:00.731
But stuff like that, that can
move the needle really far.

01:00:00.731 --> 01:00:03.251
And then, you know, the training
side of it's very similar, right?

01:00:03.251 --> 01:00:06.281
You don't have the shot link
data again to give you like your

01:00:06.281 --> 01:00:09.491
strokes gained or your expected
strokes in tournaments necessarily.

01:00:09.491 --> 01:00:11.201
Although you can do some
manual shot tracking.

01:00:11.201 --> 01:00:13.931
There's plenty of good
applications that do that.

01:00:14.021 --> 01:00:18.056
But with the track man and with the
combines, again, you should be able

01:00:18.056 --> 01:00:21.011
to get that kind of information
and act on it pretty darn quickly.

01:00:21.251 --> 01:00:24.881
Um, you know, my kind of working
theory, and I'm not a college coach so

01:00:24.881 --> 01:00:27.941
I don't wanna speak for college coaches
here, but pretty much every player's

01:00:27.941 --> 01:00:31.331
competing in D one, certainly at a high
level, has their swing coach, right?

01:00:31.331 --> 01:00:34.091
The college coaches, you, they
can be a second set of eyes.

01:00:34.091 --> 01:00:35.471
They can help reinforce some things.

01:00:35.471 --> 01:00:37.451
Swing coach is obviously not always there.

01:00:37.451 --> 01:00:40.511
Like they're on the PGA tour, they're
usually back home where the kid's from,

01:00:41.321 --> 01:00:44.801
but their job is much more of that,
of a, of a performance coach, right?

01:00:44.801 --> 01:00:47.321
Like more similar to a lot of the
stuff that we've been talking about,

01:00:47.321 --> 01:00:50.231
at least in my opinion, of, you know,
how are we gonna design our day?

01:00:50.231 --> 01:00:54.096
How are we gonna design these drills,
um, to, to allow these players to

01:00:54.096 --> 01:00:55.721
go get the most out of their games.

01:00:56.081 --> 01:00:58.871
Um, depending on, you know, what
this next tournament's gonna ask

01:00:58.871 --> 01:01:01.841
of us where each player kind of
needs to work on their stuff.

01:01:02.051 --> 01:01:04.931
Uh, you know, I I would actually say in
the team setting, you've got a lot of

01:01:04.931 --> 01:01:09.281
opportunity to, um, affect that really
nicely because you've got a locker room

01:01:09.281 --> 01:01:13.271
and you can put, you know, you know,
one of the things we, we talk about

01:01:13.271 --> 01:01:17.591
with, uh, teams that I work with is like
having like TrackMan leaderboards, right?

01:01:17.591 --> 01:01:21.041
And we've got a whiteboard up and we've
got a standardized com, you know, a wedge

01:01:21.041 --> 01:01:23.051
combine that everybody does once a week.

01:01:23.081 --> 01:01:26.351
And like we know who the, like what the
all time score is, and we know who's

01:01:26.621 --> 01:01:28.061
got the best score in the last month.

01:01:28.061 --> 01:01:29.621
And like, it creates this competition.

01:01:29.621 --> 01:01:30.731
It's, it's really healthy.

01:01:30.731 --> 01:01:31.511
It's really good.

01:01:31.841 --> 01:01:34.721
Um, so I think the team setting
has a lot of opportunities to, to

01:01:34.781 --> 01:01:38.801
leverage data and analytics, you
know, information, um, in ways to help

01:01:38.801 --> 01:01:41.261
the teams get better, even though it
looks different than the PGA tour.

01:01:42.446 --> 01:01:44.376
Aaron Goldberg: Yeah, I
mean, talk about gamifying.

01:01:44.436 --> 01:01:48.786
Like I, I can't think of anything
more competitive than your college

01:01:48.786 --> 01:01:53.046
team, and I don't care if the guy's
not traveling, like how bad you wanted

01:01:53.046 --> 01:01:58.056
to beat your roommate or the guy on
your team every single day like that.

01:01:58.656 --> 01:02:00.126
You didn't care about anybody else.

01:02:00.126 --> 01:02:01.806
You want to be that guy on your team.

01:02:01.806 --> 01:02:06.276
And like the raising the level
and raising the bar together, I

01:02:06.276 --> 01:02:07.986
think is a, is a huge opportunity.

01:02:07.986 --> 01:02:09.216
But I, I think that's interesting.

01:02:09.216 --> 01:02:12.546
I mean, that's not necessarily what
this is centered around, but, um, I

01:02:12.546 --> 01:02:16.896
think sometimes the assumption is, Hey,
we don't have that shot linked data.

01:02:16.896 --> 01:02:18.546
Like, there's not really
a whole lot we can do.

01:02:18.546 --> 01:02:19.866
And I think that's incorrect.

01:02:19.866 --> 01:02:23.436
I think it's, there's a lot you can
do, especially with TrackMan and, and

01:02:23.736 --> 01:02:26.226
providing, uh, data sets that way.

01:02:26.586 --> 01:02:29.976
And then obvi, it'll come out really
quickly on the course in a tournament.

01:02:29.976 --> 01:02:33.366
Like, is there another weakness or
is there another strength that like,

01:02:33.396 --> 01:02:35.046
isn't getting captured by this data?

01:02:35.046 --> 01:02:38.076
But for the most part, it's gonna
give you, give the players a, a

01:02:38.076 --> 01:02:40.116
pretty good sense of where they're at.

01:02:40.116 --> 01:02:43.506
And then as with everything in
golf, it's, it's an adjustment

01:02:43.506 --> 01:02:45.036
and an ongoing adjustment.

01:02:45.036 --> 01:02:47.796
So, um, all great.

01:02:47.796 --> 01:02:53.436
I man, we, I could go another two hours
probably on this, um, and continue to

01:02:53.436 --> 01:02:57.816
deep dive on it, but I wanna make sure
that, uh, we save some for next time.

01:02:58.326 --> 01:03:02.286
Uh, probably get a little bit more into
course specific analytics and mapping

01:03:02.286 --> 01:03:05.196
a course and, and how, how that's done.

01:03:05.526 --> 01:03:09.336
Uh, but appreciate your time,
Corey, appreciate your insight,

01:03:09.336 --> 01:03:10.776
what you do with your players.

01:03:10.806 --> 01:03:14.316
Uh, it's been really fun to watch,
uh, both behind the scenes and

01:03:14.316 --> 01:03:15.816
then see the results come out.

01:03:16.206 --> 01:03:19.986
Uh, appreciate you sharing, uh, a
little bit sneak peek behind the

01:03:19.986 --> 01:03:24.246
scenes for the people listening and
hopefully, hopefully this helps 'em.

01:03:24.306 --> 01:03:27.576
Uh, I'll put your website in
the show notes and kind of your

01:03:27.576 --> 01:03:31.506
handles so people can follow
you, uh, and reach out that way.

01:03:31.806 --> 01:03:34.116
Um, but thanks for listening everybody.

01:03:34.176 --> 01:03:37.956
Uh, we'll be back soon with
another, uh, episode of the PGA

01:03:37.956 --> 01:03:38.226
Players

01:03:38.226 --> 01:03:38.886
podcast.

01:03:38.946 --> 01:03:39.576
Thanks, Corey.

01:03:39.940 --> 01:03:40.360
Cory Jez: Thanks, Aaron.

01:03:40.360 --> 01:03:40.630
Thanks so

01:03:40.630 --> 01:03:40.840
much.

01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:41.500
Great chatting to you.