Matt Abrahams: Beliefs are not truths, they're tools.
And if we can harness our beliefs, we can impact our motivation and communication.
My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I'm super excited to speak with Nir Eyal.
Nir is a former lecturer at both Stanford GSB and the d.school.
His work is at the intersection of psychology, technology, and business.
His books Hooked and Indestructible have helped people all around the globe
to be better focused and to understand how technology can distract us.
His latest book written with Julie Li is Beyond Belief: The Science
Backed Way to Stop Limiting Yourself and Achieve Breakthrough Results.
Welcome, Nir.
We have so many friends and colleagues in common.
It is great to finally meet you in person.
Thanks for being here.
Nir Eyal: Absolutely, Matt.
Great to be here.
Matt Abrahams: Alright, shall we get started?
Nir Eyal: Let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Much of your work centers on attention.
I'd like to start by asking you to share why what we attend to matters so
much and how can we learn to control our attention, not only so others don't
manipulate us, but so we can have a more positive impact on our own lives?
Nir Eyal: So I think attention is really the superpower that we're
going to have to learn to master.
It is what I call the skill of the century.
The science behind attention blows my mind.
I think that there's a common perception, or at least the brain
tricks us into thinking that we perceive reality accurately.
And that is not true.
That in fact, we know that the brain absorbs about 11 million
bits of information per second.
That's like reading War and Peace every second, twice.
Now that's the information that's coming into your brain.
It's the light entering your retinas and being processed.
It's the sound of my voice right now.
All this information is being absorbed by your mental system.
However, the conscious brain can only absorb about 50 bits of information,
so 11 million bits versus 50 bits.
So your brain is only conscious of 0.000045%
of what's actually happening in reality.
And so what that necessitates is for our brain to make sense of all this
information, it has to focus through this tiny keyhole of attention.
And what we process is completely filtered by what matters.
And what matters is determined based on what we believe.
And so what really excited me about the study of attention is how malleable it is.
And how we can live in what seems to be completely different realities, simply
based on our predilections, on our beliefs that focus our attention in different
ways, which is why you can have two people who experience the same exact
objective reality and come away with totally different subjective experiences.
Matt Abrahams: That difference between what we actually take in
and what we perceive is amazing.
I want to get into a little later how we can focus our beliefs or get
more in touch with them so we can actually focus our attention more.
You introduced a hook model for how to build products that create habits,
and I'm wondering if there are best practices that we can apply to our
communication to help us motivate people to pay attention to what we're
talking about or trying to get across, and how to get them to follow through.
Are there ways to connect that work to communication specifically?
Nir Eyal: Yes, for sure.
And this was work that I was doing back when I was teaching at Stanford, I used
to teach a class at the GSB on this topic of habit-forming products, and then I
moved over to the d.school on this topic.
And when it comes to communication, I think one of the elements that we
see in all habit-forming products is that there is an element of surprise.
We call this a variable reward.
And this comes from very old research.
You know, this is 50-year-old stuff, more actually from BF Skinner from
the 1950s, I should say, where Skinner took these pigeons and he put them
in a little box and he gave these pigeons a little disc to peck at.
And every time the pigeon would peck at the disc, they would receive a reward.
At first, he could train the pigeons to peck at the disc and get the reward.
That's called operant conditioning, right?
That's no big deal.
If you have a puppy at home, if you have a spouse at home, you've
probably trained their behavior by this kind of rewards type system.
And so we see that the products and services we use do this as well.
Now, what's interesting, for habit forming products specifically, is that the engine
for these hook models that keep us coming back is what's called a variable reward.
So when Skinner introduced some bit of variability, what's called an intermittent
reward, an intermittent reinforcement, sometimes he would give the pigeon a
reward, and then sometimes he wouldn't.
What he found was that the rate of response, the number of times the
pigeon pecked at the disc increased when the reward was given on a
variable schedule of reinforcement.
And so how do we bring that back to communication?
You've gotta make sure that whatever you're saying is exciting, is
different, is mysterious, right?
What keeps us reading a book or watching a movie, or watching sports on tv?
It's all about novelty.
It's all about uncertainty.
It's all about not knowing what's gonna happen next.
The first three letters of news, NEW, it's about what's new.
It's about what we don't know that just happened.
Not necessarily the most important thing, not necessarily the most useful thing.
It's the most novel thing.
One of the best pieces of advice I can give people who
wanna be good communicators is that you have to be novel.
You have to be surprising in some way.
Matt Abrahams: So that surprise, I can imagine, really comes in at the beginning.
It's really important to draw people in.
I'm wondering, how do you square this with the notion and all the research
that says, having a clear structure, a path helps people to attend and remember.
I certainly understand that novelty, our brains are wired to pay attention to it.
We're driven to it.
But at the same time, there's a lot of evidence that says when you
provide a structure, a path, it helps people to remember and follow.
So how do those two blend together?
Nir Eyal: Absolutely.
So I think what you need is that you need to make sure that
things are cognitively fluent.
When you have high cognitive load, it becomes confusing.
If people don't understand where you're going with something, it becomes hard
to follow and it's pretty aversive.
They don't like it.
And so having a structure, and this is definitely something we see in habit
forming products, where you think about how easy it is to do a particular
behavior, how the march of technology is all about shortening the distance
between the recognition of a need and the satisfaction of that need.
And so that's technology in a nutshell is just shortening the effort.
And so we could do the same in our talks.
When people can follow along with a clear structure, that's great, but
at the end of the day, if you're not telling them something new, if
the message that you're trying to convey isn't surprising and novel in
some way, it's called boring, right?
Even if you have great information, you have to maintain their interest
by saying, here's what's coming.
Here's what's gonna happen.
Here's the mystery.
It's kind of weird.
It's not what you expect.
And keep reading for the resolution.
We can do the same in any form of communication.
Matt Abrahams: I really like how you explain the way in which structure
allows to processing fluency, but at the same time, novelty
engages us, and as communicators, we need to think about both.
We need not just to think about, here's our message, how do I get it
across, but how do I structure it to make it easier for our audiences to
get through and make it interesting and engaging so they pay attention?
I really appreciate how you explain that.
Thank you.
In your work, you emphasize that identity is a powerful tool for behavior change.
How can we change our identity to help us cancel out negative views we might have of
ourselves to take on more productive ones?
For example, how can somebody who thinks that they're a poor communicator
change their mental approach and identity to see themselves differently
and perhaps as a better communicator?
Nir Eyal: So there's a lot to unpack there.
And this is really kinda the basis of my new book Beyond Belief, which
is all about how the power of beliefs change what we see, feel, and do.
And so what you hit upon is a very powerful concept, this concept of
identity, that can help us achieve our goals, that can move us closer to
where we wanna go, can liberate us from things that have been holding us back.
But it can also backfire.
And this identity concept we know can actually lead to a lot of positive
change if we use it correctly.
The incorrect way to do it is to latch your identity to a limiting belief.
A limiting belief is a belief that saps motivation, whereas a liberating belief
is a belief that provides motivation.
So what we see a lot these days, unfortunately, is a lot of labels.
Labels can be extremely comforting because then it absolves us of future
agency and there's a lot of comfort to saying, there's not that much I can do.
That's just who I am.
And we see this a lot in a chapter in the book called Your Labels Are Your Limits,
that if you believe, you know, I'm having a senior moment, if you believe, well,
that's just my ADHD, which I, by the way have been diagnosed with ADHD as well.
If we believe that we are limited that way, if that becomes who we are
rather than a symptom of something we're struggling with, it can really
be a prison of our own making.
So a much healthier way is to choose your identity wisely.
As opposed to saying, I'm bad at public speaking, I'm a bad communicator.
No, you're someone who's getting better, right?
That is the path to changing that identity, is acknowledging that
you are growing, that this is what getting better feels like.
You're supposed to face challenges, and so one of the best things you can do
is to actually keep a belief journal.
That's a very powerful technique of simply recording down, yeah, maybe
I messed up a few times, but look at all the times I did really well.
So actually proving to yourself, not just wishful thinking, not affirmations
in the mirror per se, but actually tracking, hey, there's evidence here.
I'm getting better.
Another thing we can do is called illeism, where we speak to ourselves in the third
person, and it sounds a little silly.
It sounds a little ridiculous.
It's incredibly powerful and it's actually been shown in studies to have
this ability to transcend self-criticism.
Because when you talk about yourself in the third person, it's like
you're talking about a friend.
And when we offer a friend that perspective, we're much more likely
to give ourselves self-compassion.
So saying, Nir had a presentation and he stumbled a bit, but for the most part,
that presentation went really well.
Having that third party perspective can actually really help us change
how we view ourselves by giving our brains direct evidence about what
really happened versus painting that interaction through our limiting beliefs.
Matt Abrahams: We've heard before on the show this notion of talking
about yourself in the third person and how valuable it can be.
I love this idea of a belief journal where you note the thing that was the challenge,
then check yourself, and remind yourself that there are times that it wasn't
as bad or times where it was better.
Are there other things we can do to help change our identity to be more
in line with where we want it to be?
Nir Eyal: Absolutely.
I think another technique that really changed my life was this idea that's, it's
an ancient technique, but the person who popularized it is a woman by the name of
Byron Katie, and she has this technique called a turnaround, and now it's actually
been studied quite extensively about how effective these turnarounds can be.
So a turnaround is when we look at our belief, and you can use this in
all sorts of aspects of your life with interpersonal relationships,
of course, to reflect upon your own beliefs about your own performance.
You can use this in terms of interactions with a colleague or any situation, any
belief that you consistently find is a place where you're getting stuck in
life, what, whatever that might be.
And by the way, everybody I've ever met has limiting beliefs.
I've talked to billionaires, I've talked to people who are broke, and
all of us have these limiting beliefs.
The problem is, of course, they're hidden.
We can't see them even if they're limiting us.
And so one of the things that we do is we look for that limiting belief by first
starting with where are those areas of our life where we keep getting stuck?
Is it we keep making a New Year's resolution to get in shape and eat right?
But we don't and we won't.
Is it that relationship that we refuse to repair?
Is it a conversation about money that we're not having?
Where is that area of your life if you look at your New Year's resolution that
comes back year after year after year.
So that's where we look for these limiting beliefs.
And then what we wanna do is to actually write down that limiting belief.
So let's say it's, it has to do with communication, for example.
I'm a bad communicator, I am anxious, whatever the case might be, I
have a problem I'm dealing with.
And then what we wanna do is to try and do a turnaround on that belief,
which asks us to try on for size the exact opposite perspective.
How the heck can we do that?
We can do this because beliefs are not facts.
We confuse facts for beliefs.
And here's what I mean.
A fact is an objective truth.
The world is more like a sphere than it is flat.
That is true whether you believe it or not, right?
The Earth doesn't care what you believe.
That's an objective fact.
On the other end of the spectrum is faith.
Faith is a conviction that does not require evidence.
In between fact and faith is a belief.
A belief is a strongly held conviction open to new evidence.
So a belief doesn't have to be true, it just has to be useful.
So beliefs are tools, not truths.
Beliefs are tools, not truth.
So what that means is that I can try on an alternative perspective if it serves me.
So as opposed to thinking I'm bad at presenting, maybe I can do a turnaround on
that and say, I'm not bad at presenting.
Is there any chance, even a 1% minuscule little chance, that might also be true.
Yes, of course it could be.
The fact that I'm getting up on stage.
The fact that I'm trying to give a presentation, that means I'm
improving, that means I'm way better than maybe where I was a while back.
And so trying on those perspectives isn't necessarily about
finding the one true answer.
Maybe you did mess up on a presentation, that happens, but rather what you're doing
is collecting a portfolio of perspectives that now you can choose from one that
serves you better than the old belief.
Because beliefs are tools, not truths.
Matt Abrahams: I love that idea that we can create a portfolio of perspectives
and help us adjust and adapt our beliefs.
And this idea of beliefs as tools, not truths, is liberating.
One of the things I so like about your work is that you
create practical, tactical tests.
In your work on belief, you introduce a test we can use to determine if
certain thoughts are helpful or not.
Can you explain this test?
Nir Eyal: I actually co-opted the work of Byron Katie, and she gives this beautiful
four-part test that when we identify that belief that maybe there was a grievance
that someone did to us, right, that I'm reminded about this instance with my mom.
A few years ago she had her 74th birthday, and I wanted to do what a
good son would do, and I wanted to buy her flowers for her birthday.
I lived in Singapore and she was in Orlando, Florida where I grew up, and I
stayed up till one in the morning calling the florist and making sure it would be
delivered on time and looking at Google reviews and I went to bed thinking,
you know what, Nir, you're a good son.
You, you did a nice deed.
I called her up the next day, wished her a happy birthday and said,
hey, did you receive the flowers?
She says, yes, I did receive the flowers, but you know what?
They were half dead, so maybe you shouldn't order from that florist anymore.
I immediately looked at that situation, right?
The power to see, feel, and do.
I immediately saw and felt something very specific.
I believed that my mother is obviously too judgmental and hard
to please, wouldn't you agree?
That's a very judgmental thing to say, and I saw her through that
light, but that wasn't serving me.
That in fact, by me having, by coloring that perspective, that trapped me because
now I was dependent on her changing her behavior so that I could be happy.
That's impossible.
That's a recipe for misery.
So instead, what I did was ask myself these four questions
that Byron Katie poses.
The first question is, is it true?
So what's the belief?
My mother is too judgmental and hard to please.
The first question, is it true?
Of course it's true.
I told you, Matt, clearly my mother is very judgmental and
hard to please, obviously.
Okay, well let's move on to the second question.
The second question is, is it absolutely true?
Sounds like the first question, but it's actually not.
Is it absolutely true?
Is it absolutely true that my mother is too judgmental and hard to please?
Absolutely?
Always?
There's no other interpretation?
Uh, okay.
Maybe there's another interpretation.
Maybe she was just trying to save me some money and making sure that I
wasn't getting scammed by this florist.
Maybe, I don't know.
Maybe.
Okay.
Maybe a possibility.
Well, the third question, okay, now we're on question three.
Who am I when I have this belief?
When I believe my mom is judgmental and too hard to please I am short-tempered.
I am not very patient.
I say things that I later regret, so I'm not a very good person.
I don't like who I am when I believe my mother is judgmental
and too hard to please.
Okay.
Now the fourth and final question, who would I be without that belief?
Well, I guess if I could wave a magic wand and make that belief disappear, I
guess I'd probably be a nicer person.
I'd be who I really am as opposed to devolving into my 17-year-old
version of myself and say things off the cuff that didn't go well, right?
You can imagine how I reacted.
And I told her actually, I said, well, that's the last
time I ever buy you a present.
And of course that went over just about as well as you'd expect.
And I later regretted that.
So if I didn't have that belief, I'd be much better.
I'd like myself more.
And so that's when we're then invited to do a turnaround.
That's when we're invited to then say, well, if there's even a chance
that belief is not true and I am better for it when I don't believe
it, why not give it a chance?
Doesn't matter if it's true.
No, because beliefs are tools not true.
So it doesn't actually matter if my mother is judgmental and too hard to
please, because most of our decisions in life are not based on facts.
Should I marry this person?
Is there a fact that could inform that?
No, it's a belief.
Should I start this business?
Should I move to this city?
These are all based on beliefs.
They're not based on facts.
And so when we realize that beliefs are just tools, not truths, I
think it expands our worldview.
It expands our option set.
We become more at peace, more accepting, realizing that we're
not looking for absolutes, that we're not trying to prove facts.
We're just trying to find the beliefs that serve us.
Matt Abrahams: It strikes me that we have to be motivated to get
outside ourselves that these beliefs are really just tools, not truths.
There's a safety and security that comes from seeing the world the way I see it.
Seeing my mother as somebody who's ungrateful might help me,
which is not true in my case, but might help me tell the story of
my life that helps me feel okay.
Before we end, I like to ask everybody the same questions, one I create for
you, and two I've been asking everybody since the beginning of the show.
Are you up for that?
Nir Eyal: Absolutely.
Matt Abrahams: One of the things I so appreciate about your work is how
purposely you communicate your ideas.
You use lots of analogies and make things relevant.
You talked about how many readings of War and Peace it would take for our brains.
You use a lot of alliteration.
Talk to me about your thought process on how you communicate
the topics and tools that you use.
Nir Eyal: So my MO has always been the same, and that is to follow my curiosity.
I'm not one of these authors that writes about what I know.
I write about what I want to know, and I think readers can detect that, right?
I think a reader or listener can determine when someone is just kind of going
through the paces because that's what they have to do, versus I get excited,
I get lit up about this because I feel like I've made a discovery, right?
This has improved my life, right?
Like I know how painful it could be to have one of these problems.
So to me, that's always been my guiding light, is I always write
about my problems and thankfully, I've got no shortage of those.
I can, I'll have infinite stuff to write about.
And so when I tackle something that I'm actually struggling with,
and I'm driven by the curiosity of solving it for myself, to be honest
with you, Matt, that's why I write.
Matt Abrahams: I think some of the best work comes from when it helps ourselves,
but what I find so powerful in what you do is the way in which you communicate.
It really helps people to understand it.
Let me ask the second question.
Who's a communicator that you admire and why?
Nir Eyal: So that would have to be Daniel Kahneman, the late great economist.
I found him to be, he wasn't flashy, but he was very precise and I loved
how he took very complex ideas and he stripped away all the jargon.
He made these ideas very useful without oversimplifying them, and I
think he changed how we see ourselves.
And to me, that's amazing.
That's the highest form of communication, is the kind of clarity
that changes human behavior, and I think he's my role model there.
Matt Abrahams: I so appreciate his work, and the work he did in
conjunction with Tversky as well, was just fascinating and fundamentally
changed the way we view human behavior.
Final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Nir Eyal: First three ingredients.
Okay, so we've touched on bits and pieces of this, but let's see
if we can put it all together.
I would say the most important first ingredient is truth.
That what you say has to be true, but that's not good enough.
We've heard a lot of people who say things that are true, but they
lack the other two ingredients.
So I think the second ingredient is that it has to be useful.
That it has to be something that's actually practical.
The third ingredient to me is novelty, which we talked about at the
very beginning of our conversation around those variable rewards.
So I think that's the recipe.
It has to be true.
It has to be useful, and it has to be novel.
Matt Abrahams: Truth, novelty and usefulness, absolutely
critical to success.
And I really appreciate you taking the time to help us better understand
ourselves and our motivations and how our beliefs impact who
we are and what it is we do.
I wish you great success on your new book Beyond Belief,
and thank you for your time.
Nir Eyal: My pleasure.
This was a lot of fun.
Thank you.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about beliefs and motivation, please listen to
episode 104 with Katy Milkman and episode one 15 with Szu-chi Huang.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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