WEBVTT 00:00:03.010 --> 00:00:05.820 Matt Abrahams: Beliefs are not truths, they're tools. 00:00:06.060 --> 00:00:10.980 And if we can harness our beliefs, we can impact our motivation and communication. 00:00:11.579 --> 00:00:14.729 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:14.729 --> 00:00:16.530 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:16.650 --> 00:00:19.710 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:20.340 --> 00:00:22.300 Today I'm super excited to speak with Nir Eyal. 00:00:23.130 --> 00:00:26.930 Nir is a former lecturer at both Stanford GSB and the d.school. 00:00:27.330 --> 00:00:31.290 His work is at the intersection of psychology, technology, and business. 00:00:31.650 --> 00:00:35.820 His books Hooked and Indestructible have helped people all around the globe 00:00:35.820 --> 00:00:40.019 to be better focused and to understand how technology can distract us. 00:00:40.470 --> 00:00:44.670 His latest book written with Julie Li is Beyond Belief: The Science 00:00:44.670 --> 00:00:48.570 Backed Way to Stop Limiting Yourself and Achieve Breakthrough Results. 00:00:48.930 --> 00:00:49.470 Welcome, Nir. 00:00:49.470 --> 00:00:51.810 We have so many friends and colleagues in common. 00:00:51.810 --> 00:00:54.360 It is great to finally meet you in person. 00:00:54.360 --> 00:00:55.320 Thanks for being here. 00:00:55.680 --> 00:00:56.519 Nir Eyal: Absolutely, Matt. 00:00:56.519 --> 00:00:57.150 Great to be here. 00:00:57.540 --> 00:00:58.770 Matt Abrahams: Alright, shall we get started? 00:00:59.040 --> 00:00:59.365 Nir Eyal: Let's do it. 00:01:00.015 --> 00:01:00.675 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:01:00.975 --> 00:01:03.285 Much of your work centers on attention. 00:01:03.375 --> 00:01:07.155 I'd like to start by asking you to share why what we attend to matters so 00:01:07.155 --> 00:01:11.535 much and how can we learn to control our attention, not only so others don't 00:01:11.535 --> 00:01:15.585 manipulate us, but so we can have a more positive impact on our own lives? 00:01:15.869 --> 00:01:20.039 Nir Eyal: So I think attention is really the superpower that we're 00:01:20.039 --> 00:01:21.509 going to have to learn to master. 00:01:21.570 --> 00:01:23.669 It is what I call the skill of the century. 00:01:23.880 --> 00:01:26.070 The science behind attention blows my mind. 00:01:26.160 --> 00:01:28.649 I think that there's a common perception, or at least the brain 00:01:28.649 --> 00:01:32.610 tricks us into thinking that we perceive reality accurately. 00:01:32.789 --> 00:01:33.780 And that is not true. 00:01:33.869 --> 00:01:36.750 That in fact, we know that the brain absorbs about 11 million 00:01:36.750 --> 00:01:38.190 bits of information per second. 00:01:38.190 --> 00:01:41.520 That's like reading War and Peace every second, twice. 00:01:41.745 --> 00:01:44.205 Now that's the information that's coming into your brain. 00:01:44.235 --> 00:01:46.755 It's the light entering your retinas and being processed. 00:01:46.755 --> 00:01:48.465 It's the sound of my voice right now. 00:01:48.465 --> 00:01:51.164 All this information is being absorbed by your mental system. 00:01:51.405 --> 00:01:57.075 However, the conscious brain can only absorb about 50 bits of information, 00:01:57.075 --> 00:01:59.685 so 11 million bits versus 50 bits. 00:01:59.685 --> 00:02:01.535 So your brain is only conscious of 0.000045% 00:02:03.990 --> 00:02:05.760 of what's actually happening in reality. 00:02:05.880 --> 00:02:09.330 And so what that necessitates is for our brain to make sense of all this 00:02:09.330 --> 00:02:13.410 information, it has to focus through this tiny keyhole of attention. 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:18.480 And what we process is completely filtered by what matters. 00:02:18.570 --> 00:02:21.510 And what matters is determined based on what we believe. 00:02:21.660 --> 00:02:27.570 And so what really excited me about the study of attention is how malleable it is. 00:02:27.900 --> 00:02:32.370 And how we can live in what seems to be completely different realities, simply 00:02:32.370 --> 00:02:36.450 based on our predilections, on our beliefs that focus our attention in different 00:02:36.450 --> 00:02:40.049 ways, which is why you can have two people who experience the same exact 00:02:40.049 --> 00:02:44.430 objective reality and come away with totally different subjective experiences. 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:47.399 Matt Abrahams: That difference between what we actually take in 00:02:47.399 --> 00:02:49.140 and what we perceive is amazing. 00:02:49.260 --> 00:02:53.310 I want to get into a little later how we can focus our beliefs or get 00:02:53.310 --> 00:02:56.400 more in touch with them so we can actually focus our attention more. 00:02:56.900 --> 00:03:01.605 You introduced a hook model for how to build products that create habits, 00:03:01.695 --> 00:03:05.025 and I'm wondering if there are best practices that we can apply to our 00:03:05.025 --> 00:03:09.555 communication to help us motivate people to pay attention to what we're 00:03:09.555 --> 00:03:12.704 talking about or trying to get across, and how to get them to follow through. 00:03:12.915 --> 00:03:16.235 Are there ways to connect that work to communication specifically? 00:03:16.465 --> 00:03:17.424 Nir Eyal: Yes, for sure. 00:03:17.424 --> 00:03:20.695 And this was work that I was doing back when I was teaching at Stanford, I used 00:03:20.695 --> 00:03:24.265 to teach a class at the GSB on this topic of habit-forming products, and then I 00:03:24.265 --> 00:03:26.065 moved over to the d.school on this topic. 00:03:26.335 --> 00:03:29.545 And when it comes to communication, I think one of the elements that we 00:03:29.545 --> 00:03:33.385 see in all habit-forming products is that there is an element of surprise. 00:03:33.385 --> 00:03:35.185 We call this a variable reward. 00:03:35.235 --> 00:03:36.945 And this comes from very old research. 00:03:36.945 --> 00:03:40.035 You know, this is 50-year-old stuff, more actually from BF Skinner from 00:03:40.035 --> 00:03:43.665 the 1950s, I should say, where Skinner took these pigeons and he put them 00:03:43.665 --> 00:03:47.145 in a little box and he gave these pigeons a little disc to peck at. 00:03:47.535 --> 00:03:50.565 And every time the pigeon would peck at the disc, they would receive a reward. 00:03:50.785 --> 00:03:54.295 At first, he could train the pigeons to peck at the disc and get the reward. 00:03:54.415 --> 00:03:55.915 That's called operant conditioning, right? 00:03:55.915 --> 00:03:56.665 That's no big deal. 00:03:56.665 --> 00:03:59.695 If you have a puppy at home, if you have a spouse at home, you've 00:03:59.695 --> 00:04:03.204 probably trained their behavior by this kind of rewards type system. 00:04:03.355 --> 00:04:06.084 And so we see that the products and services we use do this as well. 00:04:06.114 --> 00:04:11.385 Now, what's interesting, for habit forming products specifically, is that the engine 00:04:11.505 --> 00:04:15.675 for these hook models that keep us coming back is what's called a variable reward. 00:04:15.795 --> 00:04:19.335 So when Skinner introduced some bit of variability, what's called an intermittent 00:04:19.335 --> 00:04:23.295 reward, an intermittent reinforcement, sometimes he would give the pigeon a 00:04:23.295 --> 00:04:24.410 reward, and then sometimes he wouldn't. 00:04:25.109 --> 00:04:28.320 What he found was that the rate of response, the number of times the 00:04:28.320 --> 00:04:32.190 pigeon pecked at the disc increased when the reward was given on a 00:04:32.190 --> 00:04:33.929 variable schedule of reinforcement. 00:04:34.289 --> 00:04:36.419 And so how do we bring that back to communication? 00:04:36.719 --> 00:04:40.830 You've gotta make sure that whatever you're saying is exciting, is 00:04:40.830 --> 00:04:42.150 different, is mysterious, right? 00:04:42.150 --> 00:04:47.520 What keeps us reading a book or watching a movie, or watching sports on tv? 00:04:47.775 --> 00:04:49.185 It's all about novelty. 00:04:49.185 --> 00:04:50.594 It's all about uncertainty. 00:04:50.594 --> 00:04:52.815 It's all about not knowing what's gonna happen next. 00:04:53.115 --> 00:04:56.025 The first three letters of news, NEW, it's about what's new. 00:04:56.055 --> 00:04:57.765 It's about what we don't know that just happened. 00:04:57.765 --> 00:05:01.094 Not necessarily the most important thing, not necessarily the most useful thing. 00:05:01.245 --> 00:05:02.565 It's the most novel thing. 00:05:02.985 --> 00:05:05.055 One of the best pieces of advice I can give people who 00:05:05.055 --> 00:05:08.145 wanna be good communicators is that you have to be novel. 00:05:08.145 --> 00:05:09.465 You have to be surprising in some way. 00:05:10.170 --> 00:05:14.070 Matt Abrahams: So that surprise, I can imagine, really comes in at the beginning. 00:05:14.100 --> 00:05:16.470 It's really important to draw people in. 00:05:16.740 --> 00:05:19.710 I'm wondering, how do you square this with the notion and all the research 00:05:19.710 --> 00:05:25.560 that says, having a clear structure, a path helps people to attend and remember. 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:29.640 I certainly understand that novelty, our brains are wired to pay attention to it. 00:05:29.640 --> 00:05:30.450 We're driven to it. 00:05:30.595 --> 00:05:33.660 But at the same time, there's a lot of evidence that says when you 00:05:33.660 --> 00:05:37.770 provide a structure, a path, it helps people to remember and follow. 00:05:37.770 --> 00:05:39.330 So how do those two blend together? 00:05:39.990 --> 00:05:40.590 Nir Eyal: Absolutely. 00:05:40.590 --> 00:05:42.930 So I think what you need is that you need to make sure that 00:05:42.930 --> 00:05:44.490 things are cognitively fluent. 00:05:44.670 --> 00:05:48.060 When you have high cognitive load, it becomes confusing. 00:05:48.060 --> 00:05:51.120 If people don't understand where you're going with something, it becomes hard 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:52.590 to follow and it's pretty aversive. 00:05:52.620 --> 00:05:53.190 They don't like it. 00:05:53.280 --> 00:05:56.909 And so having a structure, and this is definitely something we see in habit 00:05:56.909 --> 00:06:00.210 forming products, where you think about how easy it is to do a particular 00:06:00.210 --> 00:06:05.330 behavior, how the march of technology is all about shortening the distance 00:06:05.330 --> 00:06:08.330 between the recognition of a need and the satisfaction of that need. 00:06:08.540 --> 00:06:11.659 And so that's technology in a nutshell is just shortening the effort. 00:06:11.960 --> 00:06:13.520 And so we could do the same in our talks. 00:06:13.790 --> 00:06:17.360 When people can follow along with a clear structure, that's great, but 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:19.670 at the end of the day, if you're not telling them something new, if 00:06:19.670 --> 00:06:23.270 the message that you're trying to convey isn't surprising and novel in 00:06:23.270 --> 00:06:25.330 some way, it's called boring, right? 00:06:25.330 --> 00:06:29.620 Even if you have great information, you have to maintain their interest 00:06:29.710 --> 00:06:31.210 by saying, here's what's coming. 00:06:31.210 --> 00:06:32.140 Here's what's gonna happen. 00:06:32.140 --> 00:06:32.980 Here's the mystery. 00:06:33.100 --> 00:06:33.910 It's kind of weird. 00:06:33.910 --> 00:06:35.020 It's not what you expect. 00:06:35.110 --> 00:06:36.640 And keep reading for the resolution. 00:06:36.880 --> 00:06:38.920 We can do the same in any form of communication. 00:06:39.250 --> 00:06:43.150 Matt Abrahams: I really like how you explain the way in which structure 00:06:43.155 --> 00:06:47.630 allows to processing fluency, but at the same time, novelty 00:06:47.630 --> 00:06:52.490 engages us, and as communicators, we need to think about both. 00:06:52.490 --> 00:06:54.979 We need not just to think about, here's our message, how do I get it 00:06:54.979 --> 00:06:59.090 across, but how do I structure it to make it easier for our audiences to 00:06:59.090 --> 00:07:02.870 get through and make it interesting and engaging so they pay attention? 00:07:02.870 --> 00:07:04.729 I really appreciate how you explain that. 00:07:04.729 --> 00:07:05.270 Thank you. 00:07:05.955 --> 00:07:11.085 In your work, you emphasize that identity is a powerful tool for behavior change. 00:07:11.325 --> 00:07:16.875 How can we change our identity to help us cancel out negative views we might have of 00:07:16.875 --> 00:07:19.035 ourselves to take on more productive ones? 00:07:19.035 --> 00:07:22.755 For example, how can somebody who thinks that they're a poor communicator 00:07:22.965 --> 00:07:27.315 change their mental approach and identity to see themselves differently 00:07:27.315 --> 00:07:29.055 and perhaps as a better communicator? 00:07:29.440 --> 00:07:31.060 Nir Eyal: So there's a lot to unpack there. 00:07:31.060 --> 00:07:34.330 And this is really kinda the basis of my new book Beyond Belief, which 00:07:34.330 --> 00:07:37.870 is all about how the power of beliefs change what we see, feel, and do. 00:07:38.140 --> 00:07:41.740 And so what you hit upon is a very powerful concept, this concept of 00:07:41.740 --> 00:07:45.460 identity, that can help us achieve our goals, that can move us closer to 00:07:45.460 --> 00:07:49.330 where we wanna go, can liberate us from things that have been holding us back. 00:07:49.510 --> 00:07:50.919 But it can also backfire. 00:07:51.010 --> 00:07:55.270 And this identity concept we know can actually lead to a lot of positive 00:07:55.270 --> 00:07:56.890 change if we use it correctly. 00:07:57.320 --> 00:08:01.760 The incorrect way to do it is to latch your identity to a limiting belief. 00:08:01.760 --> 00:08:07.099 A limiting belief is a belief that saps motivation, whereas a liberating belief 00:08:07.130 --> 00:08:09.110 is a belief that provides motivation. 00:08:09.440 --> 00:08:13.400 So what we see a lot these days, unfortunately, is a lot of labels. 00:08:13.845 --> 00:08:18.195 Labels can be extremely comforting because then it absolves us of future 00:08:18.195 --> 00:08:21.375 agency and there's a lot of comfort to saying, there's not that much I can do. 00:08:21.375 --> 00:08:22.725 That's just who I am. 00:08:22.845 --> 00:08:26.025 And we see this a lot in a chapter in the book called Your Labels Are Your Limits, 00:08:26.145 --> 00:08:29.925 that if you believe, you know, I'm having a senior moment, if you believe, well, 00:08:29.925 --> 00:08:33.794 that's just my ADHD, which I, by the way have been diagnosed with ADHD as well. 00:08:34.065 --> 00:08:37.605 If we believe that we are limited that way, if that becomes who we are 00:08:37.935 --> 00:08:41.475 rather than a symptom of something we're struggling with, it can really 00:08:41.475 --> 00:08:43.095 be a prison of our own making. 00:08:43.215 --> 00:08:47.865 So a much healthier way is to choose your identity wisely. 00:08:48.195 --> 00:08:52.335 As opposed to saying, I'm bad at public speaking, I'm a bad communicator. 00:08:52.545 --> 00:08:55.365 No, you're someone who's getting better, right? 00:08:55.365 --> 00:08:58.755 That is the path to changing that identity, is acknowledging that 00:08:58.815 --> 00:09:02.115 you are growing, that this is what getting better feels like. 00:09:02.115 --> 00:09:05.655 You're supposed to face challenges, and so one of the best things you can do 00:09:05.925 --> 00:09:08.085 is to actually keep a belief journal. 00:09:08.415 --> 00:09:12.015 That's a very powerful technique of simply recording down, yeah, maybe 00:09:12.015 --> 00:09:15.314 I messed up a few times, but look at all the times I did really well. 00:09:15.435 --> 00:09:19.395 So actually proving to yourself, not just wishful thinking, not affirmations 00:09:19.395 --> 00:09:22.785 in the mirror per se, but actually tracking, hey, there's evidence here. 00:09:22.785 --> 00:09:23.595 I'm getting better. 00:09:23.985 --> 00:09:28.605 Another thing we can do is called illeism, where we speak to ourselves in the third 00:09:28.605 --> 00:09:30.704 person, and it sounds a little silly. 00:09:30.704 --> 00:09:31.665 It sounds a little ridiculous. 00:09:31.995 --> 00:09:35.295 It's incredibly powerful and it's actually been shown in studies to have 00:09:35.295 --> 00:09:38.235 this ability to transcend self-criticism. 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:42.015 Because when you talk about yourself in the third person, it's like 00:09:42.015 --> 00:09:43.155 you're talking about a friend. 00:09:43.395 --> 00:09:47.145 And when we offer a friend that perspective, we're much more likely 00:09:47.145 --> 00:09:48.705 to give ourselves self-compassion. 00:09:48.855 --> 00:09:53.415 So saying, Nir had a presentation and he stumbled a bit, but for the most part, 00:09:53.415 --> 00:09:54.795 that presentation went really well. 00:09:55.215 --> 00:09:58.515 Having that third party perspective can actually really help us change 00:09:58.515 --> 00:10:01.755 how we view ourselves by giving our brains direct evidence about what 00:10:01.755 --> 00:10:06.795 really happened versus painting that interaction through our limiting beliefs. 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:10.740 Matt Abrahams: We've heard before on the show this notion of talking 00:10:10.890 --> 00:10:14.220 about yourself in the third person and how valuable it can be. 00:10:14.460 --> 00:10:19.110 I love this idea of a belief journal where you note the thing that was the challenge, 00:10:19.110 --> 00:10:22.890 then check yourself, and remind yourself that there are times that it wasn't 00:10:22.890 --> 00:10:25.170 as bad or times where it was better. 00:10:25.530 --> 00:10:30.000 Are there other things we can do to help change our identity to be more 00:10:30.030 --> 00:10:31.505 in line with where we want it to be? 00:10:32.340 --> 00:10:33.000 Nir Eyal: Absolutely. 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:36.829 I think another technique that really changed my life was this idea that's, it's 00:10:36.829 --> 00:10:40.500 an ancient technique, but the person who popularized it is a woman by the name of 00:10:40.500 --> 00:10:44.640 Byron Katie, and she has this technique called a turnaround, and now it's actually 00:10:44.640 --> 00:10:48.540 been studied quite extensively about how effective these turnarounds can be. 00:10:48.540 --> 00:10:52.435 So a turnaround is when we look at our belief, and you can use this in 00:10:53.015 --> 00:10:56.135 all sorts of aspects of your life with interpersonal relationships, 00:10:56.135 --> 00:10:59.795 of course, to reflect upon your own beliefs about your own performance. 00:10:59.975 --> 00:11:03.785 You can use this in terms of interactions with a colleague or any situation, any 00:11:03.785 --> 00:11:08.075 belief that you consistently find is a place where you're getting stuck in 00:11:08.075 --> 00:11:09.365 life, what, whatever that might be. 00:11:09.365 --> 00:11:12.305 And by the way, everybody I've ever met has limiting beliefs. 00:11:12.575 --> 00:11:15.275 I've talked to billionaires, I've talked to people who are broke, and 00:11:15.425 --> 00:11:16.865 all of us have these limiting beliefs. 00:11:16.865 --> 00:11:18.395 The problem is, of course, they're hidden. 00:11:18.875 --> 00:11:21.395 We can't see them even if they're limiting us. 00:11:21.730 --> 00:11:25.150 And so one of the things that we do is we look for that limiting belief by first 00:11:25.150 --> 00:11:29.050 starting with where are those areas of our life where we keep getting stuck? 00:11:29.140 --> 00:11:32.860 Is it we keep making a New Year's resolution to get in shape and eat right? 00:11:32.860 --> 00:11:34.180 But we don't and we won't. 00:11:34.449 --> 00:11:37.030 Is it that relationship that we refuse to repair? 00:11:37.030 --> 00:11:39.550 Is it a conversation about money that we're not having? 00:11:39.760 --> 00:11:42.880 Where is that area of your life if you look at your New Year's resolution that 00:11:42.880 --> 00:11:44.680 comes back year after year after year. 00:11:44.680 --> 00:11:46.329 So that's where we look for these limiting beliefs. 00:11:46.630 --> 00:11:49.340 And then what we wanna do is to actually write down that limiting belief. 00:11:49.340 --> 00:11:51.680 So let's say it's, it has to do with communication, for example. 00:11:51.890 --> 00:11:55.819 I'm a bad communicator, I am anxious, whatever the case might be, I 00:11:55.819 --> 00:11:57.199 have a problem I'm dealing with. 00:11:57.620 --> 00:12:00.470 And then what we wanna do is to try and do a turnaround on that belief, 00:12:00.470 --> 00:12:05.510 which asks us to try on for size the exact opposite perspective. 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:06.829 How the heck can we do that? 00:12:07.100 --> 00:12:10.730 We can do this because beliefs are not facts. 00:12:11.180 --> 00:12:13.880 We confuse facts for beliefs. 00:12:13.880 --> 00:12:14.510 And here's what I mean. 00:12:14.569 --> 00:12:16.910 A fact is an objective truth. 00:12:17.280 --> 00:12:19.770 The world is more like a sphere than it is flat. 00:12:20.010 --> 00:12:22.260 That is true whether you believe it or not, right? 00:12:22.260 --> 00:12:23.550 The Earth doesn't care what you believe. 00:12:23.550 --> 00:12:24.360 That's an objective fact. 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:26.940 On the other end of the spectrum is faith. 00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:30.030 Faith is a conviction that does not require evidence. 00:12:30.300 --> 00:12:32.175 In between fact and faith is a belief. 00:12:32.895 --> 00:12:36.795 A belief is a strongly held conviction open to new evidence. 00:12:37.245 --> 00:12:41.085 So a belief doesn't have to be true, it just has to be useful. 00:12:41.385 --> 00:12:44.385 So beliefs are tools, not truths. 00:12:44.715 --> 00:12:46.215 Beliefs are tools, not truth. 00:12:46.515 --> 00:12:51.825 So what that means is that I can try on an alternative perspective if it serves me. 00:12:52.245 --> 00:12:56.715 So as opposed to thinking I'm bad at presenting, maybe I can do a turnaround on 00:12:56.715 --> 00:12:59.205 that and say, I'm not bad at presenting. 00:12:59.535 --> 00:13:04.215 Is there any chance, even a 1% minuscule little chance, that might also be true. 00:13:04.635 --> 00:13:05.834 Yes, of course it could be. 00:13:06.135 --> 00:13:07.694 The fact that I'm getting up on stage. 00:13:07.694 --> 00:13:10.334 The fact that I'm trying to give a presentation, that means I'm 00:13:10.334 --> 00:13:13.785 improving, that means I'm way better than maybe where I was a while back. 00:13:14.084 --> 00:13:17.505 And so trying on those perspectives isn't necessarily about 00:13:17.505 --> 00:13:19.334 finding the one true answer. 00:13:19.334 --> 00:13:22.905 Maybe you did mess up on a presentation, that happens, but rather what you're doing 00:13:22.905 --> 00:13:27.584 is collecting a portfolio of perspectives that now you can choose from one that 00:13:27.584 --> 00:13:29.625 serves you better than the old belief. 00:13:29.895 --> 00:13:31.995 Because beliefs are tools, not truths. 00:13:32.385 --> 00:13:36.735 Matt Abrahams: I love that idea that we can create a portfolio of perspectives 00:13:37.005 --> 00:13:40.335 and help us adjust and adapt our beliefs. 00:13:40.365 --> 00:13:44.325 And this idea of beliefs as tools, not truths, is liberating. 00:13:44.805 --> 00:13:47.985 One of the things I so like about your work is that you 00:13:47.985 --> 00:13:50.775 create practical, tactical tests. 00:13:51.105 --> 00:13:54.795 In your work on belief, you introduce a test we can use to determine if 00:13:54.795 --> 00:13:57.555 certain thoughts are helpful or not. 00:13:58.035 --> 00:13:59.325 Can you explain this test? 00:13:59.939 --> 00:14:03.540 Nir Eyal: I actually co-opted the work of Byron Katie, and she gives this beautiful 00:14:03.540 --> 00:14:09.209 four-part test that when we identify that belief that maybe there was a grievance 00:14:09.209 --> 00:14:13.590 that someone did to us, right, that I'm reminded about this instance with my mom. 00:14:14.040 --> 00:14:18.930 A few years ago she had her 74th birthday, and I wanted to do what a 00:14:18.930 --> 00:14:21.810 good son would do, and I wanted to buy her flowers for her birthday. 00:14:22.074 --> 00:14:26.665 I lived in Singapore and she was in Orlando, Florida where I grew up, and I 00:14:26.665 --> 00:14:29.694 stayed up till one in the morning calling the florist and making sure it would be 00:14:29.694 --> 00:14:33.535 delivered on time and looking at Google reviews and I went to bed thinking, 00:14:33.595 --> 00:14:35.125 you know what, Nir, you're a good son. 00:14:35.125 --> 00:14:36.204 You, you did a nice deed. 00:14:36.475 --> 00:14:39.115 I called her up the next day, wished her a happy birthday and said, 00:14:39.115 --> 00:14:40.135 hey, did you receive the flowers? 00:14:40.740 --> 00:14:43.170 She says, yes, I did receive the flowers, but you know what? 00:14:43.230 --> 00:14:46.410 They were half dead, so maybe you shouldn't order from that florist anymore. 00:14:46.650 --> 00:14:49.320 I immediately looked at that situation, right? 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:50.580 The power to see, feel, and do. 00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:53.910 I immediately saw and felt something very specific. 00:14:54.180 --> 00:14:58.800 I believed that my mother is obviously too judgmental and hard 00:14:58.800 --> 00:15:00.150 to please, wouldn't you agree? 00:15:00.150 --> 00:15:04.050 That's a very judgmental thing to say, and I saw her through that 00:15:04.050 --> 00:15:05.849 light, but that wasn't serving me. 00:15:06.069 --> 00:15:11.550 That in fact, by me having, by coloring that perspective, that trapped me because 00:15:11.550 --> 00:15:17.100 now I was dependent on her changing her behavior so that I could be happy. 00:15:17.490 --> 00:15:18.240 That's impossible. 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:19.650 That's a recipe for misery. 00:15:19.890 --> 00:15:23.340 So instead, what I did was ask myself these four questions 00:15:23.340 --> 00:15:24.540 that Byron Katie poses. 00:15:24.630 --> 00:15:26.760 The first question is, is it true? 00:15:26.820 --> 00:15:27.570 So what's the belief? 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.240 My mother is too judgmental and hard to please. 00:15:30.540 --> 00:15:32.160 The first question, is it true? 00:15:32.790 --> 00:15:33.360 Of course it's true. 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:36.000 I told you, Matt, clearly my mother is very judgmental and 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:36.990 hard to please, obviously. 00:15:37.020 --> 00:15:38.610 Okay, well let's move on to the second question. 00:15:38.880 --> 00:15:41.340 The second question is, is it absolutely true? 00:15:41.550 --> 00:15:43.380 Sounds like the first question, but it's actually not. 00:15:43.650 --> 00:15:44.880 Is it absolutely true? 00:15:44.880 --> 00:15:48.990 Is it absolutely true that my mother is too judgmental and hard to please? 00:15:49.050 --> 00:15:49.860 Absolutely? 00:15:50.250 --> 00:15:50.700 Always? 00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:52.080 There's no other interpretation? 00:15:52.155 --> 00:15:53.625 Uh, okay. 00:15:53.625 --> 00:15:54.855 Maybe there's another interpretation. 00:15:54.855 --> 00:15:57.975 Maybe she was just trying to save me some money and making sure that I 00:15:57.975 --> 00:15:59.954 wasn't getting scammed by this florist. 00:15:59.954 --> 00:16:00.704 Maybe, I don't know. 00:16:00.704 --> 00:16:01.005 Maybe. 00:16:01.035 --> 00:16:01.305 Okay. 00:16:01.305 --> 00:16:02.055 Maybe a possibility. 00:16:02.055 --> 00:16:04.365 Well, the third question, okay, now we're on question three. 00:16:04.785 --> 00:16:06.824 Who am I when I have this belief? 00:16:07.214 --> 00:16:11.925 When I believe my mom is judgmental and too hard to please I am short-tempered. 00:16:12.165 --> 00:16:13.785 I am not very patient. 00:16:13.785 --> 00:16:16.725 I say things that I later regret, so I'm not a very good person. 00:16:16.725 --> 00:16:19.245 I don't like who I am when I believe my mother is judgmental 00:16:19.245 --> 00:16:20.025 and too hard to please. 00:16:20.445 --> 00:16:20.715 Okay. 00:16:20.715 --> 00:16:23.775 Now the fourth and final question, who would I be without that belief? 00:16:24.255 --> 00:16:28.395 Well, I guess if I could wave a magic wand and make that belief disappear, I 00:16:28.395 --> 00:16:30.465 guess I'd probably be a nicer person. 00:16:30.465 --> 00:16:34.455 I'd be who I really am as opposed to devolving into my 17-year-old 00:16:34.455 --> 00:16:38.205 version of myself and say things off the cuff that didn't go well, right? 00:16:38.205 --> 00:16:39.735 You can imagine how I reacted. 00:16:39.735 --> 00:16:41.355 And I told her actually, I said, well, that's the last 00:16:41.355 --> 00:16:42.525 time I ever buy you a present. 00:16:42.645 --> 00:16:45.285 And of course that went over just about as well as you'd expect. 00:16:45.435 --> 00:16:46.485 And I later regretted that. 00:16:46.575 --> 00:16:49.605 So if I didn't have that belief, I'd be much better. 00:16:49.665 --> 00:16:50.714 I'd like myself more. 00:16:51.135 --> 00:16:53.475 And so that's when we're then invited to do a turnaround. 00:16:53.475 --> 00:16:56.655 That's when we're invited to then say, well, if there's even a chance 00:16:56.655 --> 00:16:59.895 that belief is not true and I am better for it when I don't believe 00:16:59.895 --> 00:17:01.334 it, why not give it a chance? 00:17:01.694 --> 00:17:03.045 Doesn't matter if it's true. 00:17:03.375 --> 00:17:05.655 No, because beliefs are tools not true. 00:17:06.405 --> 00:17:08.805 So it doesn't actually matter if my mother is judgmental and too hard to 00:17:08.805 --> 00:17:12.435 please, because most of our decisions in life are not based on facts. 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:14.099 Should I marry this person? 00:17:14.310 --> 00:17:16.140 Is there a fact that could inform that? 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:17.400 No, it's a belief. 00:17:17.670 --> 00:17:19.020 Should I start this business? 00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:20.430 Should I move to this city? 00:17:20.430 --> 00:17:22.380 These are all based on beliefs. 00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:23.579 They're not based on facts. 00:17:23.970 --> 00:17:28.410 And so when we realize that beliefs are just tools, not truths, I 00:17:28.410 --> 00:17:30.570 think it expands our worldview. 00:17:30.570 --> 00:17:31.950 It expands our option set. 00:17:32.010 --> 00:17:36.270 We become more at peace, more accepting, realizing that we're 00:17:36.270 --> 00:17:39.330 not looking for absolutes, that we're not trying to prove facts. 00:17:39.750 --> 00:17:42.120 We're just trying to find the beliefs that serve us. 00:17:42.540 --> 00:17:46.020 Matt Abrahams: It strikes me that we have to be motivated to get 00:17:46.020 --> 00:17:50.820 outside ourselves that these beliefs are really just tools, not truths. 00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:56.310 There's a safety and security that comes from seeing the world the way I see it. 00:17:56.310 --> 00:18:01.320 Seeing my mother as somebody who's ungrateful might help me, 00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:05.490 which is not true in my case, but might help me tell the story of 00:18:05.490 --> 00:18:07.800 my life that helps me feel okay. 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:13.140 Before we end, I like to ask everybody the same questions, one I create for 00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:15.810 you, and two I've been asking everybody since the beginning of the show. 00:18:15.810 --> 00:18:16.500 Are you up for that? 00:18:16.650 --> 00:18:17.340 Nir Eyal: Absolutely. 00:18:17.520 --> 00:18:19.830 Matt Abrahams: One of the things I so appreciate about your work is how 00:18:19.860 --> 00:18:22.110 purposely you communicate your ideas. 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:26.250 You use lots of analogies and make things relevant. 00:18:26.670 --> 00:18:30.600 You talked about how many readings of War and Peace it would take for our brains. 00:18:30.870 --> 00:18:32.730 You use a lot of alliteration. 00:18:32.945 --> 00:18:36.575 Talk to me about your thought process on how you communicate 00:18:36.635 --> 00:18:39.065 the topics and tools that you use. 00:18:39.365 --> 00:18:44.015 Nir Eyal: So my MO has always been the same, and that is to follow my curiosity. 00:18:44.015 --> 00:18:47.105 I'm not one of these authors that writes about what I know. 00:18:47.105 --> 00:18:51.035 I write about what I want to know, and I think readers can detect that, right? 00:18:51.035 --> 00:18:55.180 I think a reader or listener can determine when someone is just kind of going 00:18:55.180 --> 00:18:58.990 through the paces because that's what they have to do, versus I get excited, 00:18:58.990 --> 00:19:01.840 I get lit up about this because I feel like I've made a discovery, right? 00:19:01.840 --> 00:19:03.490 This has improved my life, right? 00:19:03.490 --> 00:19:06.220 Like I know how painful it could be to have one of these problems. 00:19:06.340 --> 00:19:10.180 So to me, that's always been my guiding light, is I always write 00:19:10.180 --> 00:19:12.970 about my problems and thankfully, I've got no shortage of those. 00:19:12.970 --> 00:19:15.250 I can, I'll have infinite stuff to write about. 00:19:15.520 --> 00:19:18.610 And so when I tackle something that I'm actually struggling with, 00:19:18.610 --> 00:19:22.575 and I'm driven by the curiosity of solving it for myself, to be honest 00:19:22.575 --> 00:19:24.195 with you, Matt, that's why I write. 00:19:24.465 --> 00:19:28.005 Matt Abrahams: I think some of the best work comes from when it helps ourselves, 00:19:28.005 --> 00:19:31.995 but what I find so powerful in what you do is the way in which you communicate. 00:19:31.995 --> 00:19:34.395 It really helps people to understand it. 00:19:34.965 --> 00:19:36.465 Let me ask the second question. 00:19:36.795 --> 00:19:39.435 Who's a communicator that you admire and why? 00:19:40.095 --> 00:19:43.905 Nir Eyal: So that would have to be Daniel Kahneman, the late great economist. 00:19:44.055 --> 00:19:49.575 I found him to be, he wasn't flashy, but he was very precise and I loved 00:19:49.575 --> 00:19:53.745 how he took very complex ideas and he stripped away all the jargon. 00:19:53.985 --> 00:19:58.365 He made these ideas very useful without oversimplifying them, and I 00:19:58.365 --> 00:20:00.255 think he changed how we see ourselves. 00:20:00.285 --> 00:20:01.905 And to me, that's amazing. 00:20:01.935 --> 00:20:04.995 That's the highest form of communication, is the kind of clarity 00:20:05.235 --> 00:20:08.445 that changes human behavior, and I think he's my role model there. 00:20:08.820 --> 00:20:11.820 Matt Abrahams: I so appreciate his work, and the work he did in 00:20:11.820 --> 00:20:16.230 conjunction with Tversky as well, was just fascinating and fundamentally 00:20:16.230 --> 00:20:18.120 changed the way we view human behavior. 00:20:18.540 --> 00:20:19.110 Final question. 00:20:19.725 --> 00:20:24.945 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:20:25.274 --> 00:20:26.564 Nir Eyal: First three ingredients. 00:20:26.625 --> 00:20:28.605 Okay, so we've touched on bits and pieces of this, but let's see 00:20:28.605 --> 00:20:29.445 if we can put it all together. 00:20:29.445 --> 00:20:32.445 I would say the most important first ingredient is truth. 00:20:32.655 --> 00:20:36.435 That what you say has to be true, but that's not good enough. 00:20:36.495 --> 00:20:39.945 We've heard a lot of people who say things that are true, but they 00:20:39.945 --> 00:20:40.965 lack the other two ingredients. 00:20:40.965 --> 00:20:44.175 So I think the second ingredient is that it has to be useful. 00:20:44.475 --> 00:20:46.125 That it has to be something that's actually practical. 00:20:46.590 --> 00:20:50.070 The third ingredient to me is novelty, which we talked about at the 00:20:50.070 --> 00:20:52.530 very beginning of our conversation around those variable rewards. 00:20:52.530 --> 00:20:53.399 So I think that's the recipe. 00:20:53.399 --> 00:20:54.240 It has to be true. 00:20:54.510 --> 00:20:55.925 It has to be useful, and it has to be novel. 00:20:56.610 --> 00:21:00.120 Matt Abrahams: Truth, novelty and usefulness, absolutely 00:21:00.120 --> 00:21:01.920 critical to success. 00:21:02.250 --> 00:21:06.120 And I really appreciate you taking the time to help us better understand 00:21:06.210 --> 00:21:10.200 ourselves and our motivations and how our beliefs impact who 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:11.850 we are and what it is we do. 00:21:12.060 --> 00:21:14.670 I wish you great success on your new book Beyond Belief, 00:21:14.670 --> 00:21:15.629 and thank you for your time. 00:21:16.020 --> 00:21:16.620 Nir Eyal: My pleasure. 00:21:16.620 --> 00:21:17.370 This was a lot of fun. 00:21:17.370 --> 00:21:17.850 Thank you. 00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:22.440 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:24.125 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:21:25.125 --> 00:21:27.705 To learn more about beliefs and motivation, please listen to 00:21:27.705 --> 00:21:31.865 episode 104 with Katy Milkman and episode one 15 with Szu-chi Huang. 00:21:32.355 --> 00:21:37.095 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:21:37.335 --> 00:21:38.895 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:21:38.985 --> 00:21:41.030 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:21:41.774 --> 00:21:44.925 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:21:45.135 --> 00:21:47.235 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:21:47.475 --> 00:21:52.034 Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and check out fastersmarter.io for 00:21:52.034 --> 00:21:56.445 deep dive videos, English language Learning content, and our newsletter. 00:21:56.685 --> 00:21:59.685 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community. 00:21:59.685 --> 00:22:04.514 At fastersmarter.io/learning, you'll find video lessons, learning 00:22:04.514 --> 00:22:09.629 quests, discussion boards, Matt's AI coach, and book club opportunities. 00:22:09.780 --> 00:22:14.850 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of the Think Fast 00:22:14.970 --> 00:22:16.680 Talk Smart Learning Community.