[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome to we, not me, the new podcast all about how humans connect to get stuff done. I'm Dan.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am pier. 

[00:00:14] Dan: Hey, Peter, how are you doing today? And where are you doing it?

[00:00:19] Pia: I am in the dungeon of my house in a very salubrious garage and we are in lockdown. So being in lockdown, this is our nearly the end of our 10th week. And, um, a bit of a long way to get out probably another eight weeks to get out. So this has been quite an interesting time for all of us.

[00:00:37] Dan: What I learned was that everyone's experience is totally individual. So what was your, was your experience of it? 

[00:00:44] Pia: Same, same 

[00:00:45] Dan: Correct?

[00:00:46] Pia: they boat put it here. So, you know, so, uh, we're a family of five, we've got three animals and we've been homeschooling. Youngest is six. Elders is, is 13. So yeah, it's, it's been, uh, Quite test for all of us, but actually, you know, we've come together pretty well. We've had some good And, um, yeah, And I, I'm just, I'm noticing a lot of division down here at the moment there's in the public sentiment. So really keen on seeing how we can come together in a, in a much more proactive in a more, more effective way and and really try and work our way through all these challenges 

[00:01:27] Dan: let's hope this is, this is timely for run. I think homeschooling animals, world on you, I 

[00:01:31] Pia: Well we haven't talked about the dashounds.

[00:01:33] Dan: Exactly exactly. We will be back to them without a doubt. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's what was sorry to rub it in, but having had our months and months of locked down, I'm now away from my base in Yorkshire, in the UK. And I'm actually sending it in Italy, working from, from Italy for a few weeks. So I'm sorry to rub it in, but, um, we are, we're having a nice time in the sunshine. 

[00:01:54] Pia: No, I'm having a vicarious holiday by checking in to see what you're doing every day. Is the sun shining? 

[00:02:00] Dan: It's shining beautifully first day of autumn, but it's, uh, it's, it's absolutely gorgeous. So yeah. All is well here all is. Well, so talk to me about, um, so what, you know, in a way, um, probably the last thing the world needs is yet another podcast, but so what, what made you think that we should be, should be doing one on on this topic?

[00:02:18] Pia: Well, you know I, we've got a background working with people, organizations, teams, and, you know, we have seen across the world what works and what doesn't work, and I just felt that with all the pressures to deliver into this fast paced world, increased technology, and now just thrown into the mix of global pandemic, we probably need to talk a little bit more about what brings us together what helps us to deliver more.

[00:02:47] In the world is in need of teams, teams that work right now. And we've got some real challenges for our kids and for our future grandkids. And those can be achieved and worked. Collectively. And so this is a conversation about that, and we've looked to all the people we know who we've worked with, and just been inspired about, and we thought let's create an opportunity for a great conversation and, um raise some interesting topics. 

[00:03:16] Dan: Yeah, I hope so. I'm really, I'm really excited by it. I must say, because I think this idea, you know, teams, you, and I've talked about this a lot, but the word teams has been slightly sort of, um, it got a little bit tired, but I think if we think about these groups of people that we see in, in the pandemic, these are coming to focus actually, you see these teams, the medical teams and so on, all kinds of people coming around to help people you know who can't go out, who are shielding to shop and things like this, these, these things have emerged. And I think. I feel I'm fascinated to explore this topic more because on the one hand, we know that we're wired to work in teams at the same time. We're easily divided, as you said, just now. So I'm really excited to be getting stuck into it. And we are starting today with a really a guest who's important to both of us. I think it took us a little bit, a little bit about Rob. Rob Metcalfe. 

[00:04:02] Pia: So So Rob has been both our bosses. Let's get, let's get that out table Um, and, uh, and we'd been in his team and, and, and Rob is such an interesting character because he spent a considerable time in in the military as a commando. And so that's where he learned his craft, he then moved into consulting. He took an organization and grew a big bet at a huge success under LIW in Australia. And then he's worked here. Boutique organizations and investment organizations he's worked with charities and this guy has a deep love for human beings, but also big brains, so we thought that this was a great opportunity to start today, to really get to, to get some insight and other different conversation. Teams about the bigger picture for teams and the bigger value that it can hold for team leaders, but also for organizations and for movements that are happening around the world. 

[00:05:01] 

[00:05:04] Pia: And a really warm welcome to Rob Metcalf. And we just couldn't think of anyone better to have on the show. Our very first episode of we, not me. And, um, Rob is a friend and colleague over the years, and you have got an incredibly broad experience across the military active warfare. You've coached teams, you've led it global consultancy. So. What created for you to get interested in teams? What is it that got you there?

[00:05:38] Rob: Well, that's a, it's an interesting one because as a human being paradoxically, I'm not a natural team player. Um, I. We worked really well on my own, but I did realize that there are things that only teams can achieve. And that is based on, I think the original word was coined by Katzenback in his book, wisdom of teams, a significant performance challenge when faced with a significant performance challenge only teams can handle it in certain circumstances. So, the response to COVID, we need teams, the response to an invader. We need teams, the winning of a world cup, we need teams.

[00:06:18] Dan: So Rob, just talking about these significant performance challenges, why can't they be done by individuals? A number of individuals even, obviously, even with a football team, there's a lot of adulation of individual stars. Isn't there. What is. it about teams as opposed to just individuals that makes it so important?

[00:06:34] Rob: Me give you an example of an illustration. So if we look at the background, I have militarily, then there are a built into the fabric of the institution. Competitive strains. So for example, a Marine would be brought up to be competitive with a paratrooper, but if you put a significant enough performance challenge on the table, then those two years. Even though the bread to have a degree of competent, I'll say best competitiveness could even be described as animosity on certain 

[00:07:11] Dan: And that worst. 

[00:07:12] Rob: but you put a, you put a significant performance challenge on the table. Then those two organizations can come together. In a highly unified way to achieve that challenge in a way that if they didn't come together, that challenge would not be achieved, then throw in a degree of complexity around the support they need. Then you can bring in other institutions, the Navy, the air force and the intelligence services. If that challenge is significant enough, then all of those institutions can work happily together. And yeah. Uh, no, actually they can work together, even unhappily.

[00:07:49] So teaming at the system level requires that level of challenge go to the other extreme, working with an individual sportsman let's take Andy Murray, potentially be seen as an individual, but then look at the team that comes together around him for him to be successful. And there are physios the sports scientists, the psychologist, so even at the individual level and an individual sport, it's still a team propo approach to be high-performing. so that's kind of where I'm going. I think with this, the significant performance challenge at its best is proactively defined and we're not just reacting to a problem. leadership, 

[00:08:27] Pia: And is that because we've just really focused on individuals and it's all about individual glory and, and we've made that competitive, you know, particularly in the business world, is, is that where the focus has been?

[00:08:40] Rob: I suppose, depending on where your cultural background is, certainly I don't think you would say that about some of the Asian cultures that we've worked in. There may well be an element of truth in what you say, but I think there's also. Part of our evolution that's involved there, that we are reactive to things because the brain will be looking more for the threat than for the reward.

[00:09:03] So the opportunity I think, comes for us to say, well, what does a really big, bright future look like? And can we put teams together in order to explore that big, bright future and meet that challenge, as opposed to the more natural and I use the word natural advisers. look towards the elephant in the room rather than the fruit bowl, and we're always gonna sell the tiger in the rear rather than the fruit belt by more and more likely you need to see that and respond to it. 

[00:09:29] Pia: I don't think I know that one, 

[00:09:31] Dan: The no, the fruit bowl in the

[00:09:32] Pia: but what is the fruit bowl?

[00:09:33] Rob: Well, I use it a lot. So I'm sitting in my front room now, recording this and where the targets and walk through the door. Then the bowl of respite is in the corner would not, would not be seen. It would not be observed yet. That may be where the opportunity lies. At the national level, do we have an opportunity to create a, uh, uh, technology sector that has got more vibrancy in it. And do we have an opportunity to become a financial, powerhouse? if we could look at your business, um, is there the opportunity to explore other applications that may well change the world and deliver leadership in a different way?

[00:10:12] Have we institutionalized a practice that tries to identify those opportunities. So if we look at the brain's ability to think we creating a practice where an executive team would sit down and think in a practiced way, a routine way around the opportunities that may be. Yeah. So when I speak to executive teams, quite often, we're seeing them in a routine, but very few of them are creating that routine for blue sky thinking and creating some habits that make that blue sky thinking more fruitful, so thinking about some of the things we've spoken to many organizations about over the years, so what is the future? Where are you now? What are you going to do next?

[00:11:00] If we take an equation that I love success equals goals. Plus discipline and discipline is habits and routines, do we have a habit and routine that institutionalizes the identification of opportunities proactively and then creates an appropriate team to, to deal with that opportunity? 

[00:11:22] Dan: Just looking back a little bit, I believe you hired pier at one point. What was the bowl of fruit that you saw in that encounter? 

[00:11:29] Rob: well, you can't guarantee that everything's going to work out exactly as planned, 

[00:11:34] Pia: Rob, I wore a skirt for you. That was the last time in 2001 that I bought a skirt. And it was for you. 

[00:11:41] Rob: Well, thank you. Yeah. Um, I think it does come to some of those relevant of the individual and the team level. So for a team to have an identity, the identity, I think, comes to both purpose and values and what has always trumped anything else in the selection of people to work in our teams is the values that they manifest. 

[00:12:01] So I clearly remember, I know pare talks to this story as well. What is it that you really value? You might want to talk to this as well? Because my is my sense of alignment between Pierre and not me, but pair and the institution that we were then were so strong, 

[00:12:15] Pia: So just to give some context to this, I'd left the UK with. No job, no money and a, and a chocolate Labrador. And I was looking for work and we stumbled upon our, our paths and, and I made an effort to, to dress up for you. And we met in windy side street in north Sydney, and you asked me that question, what. The key values that you hold. And I knew that if I answered that, I was then going to tell you the secret that I'd held in the UK, because I wasn't actually allowed to be open about it because it was the back end of the nineties that you know, that I was gay and I didn't really know you from Adam, but at that moment, I knew that if I was going to talk about courage, making a difference, I had to be. And I knew that I was in my instant assessment center with you. And, and I think that was you're right. I mean, you, you just were so welcoming that it was the forging of our relationship, but there was that, that moment where you've actually got to be courageous to take the, take a little bit of a risk.

[00:13:23] Um, but I also made the decision that I wasn't prepared to be in an organization that I couldn't be myself. So it was a really interesting experience. And I think that. From a behavioral point of view, such a key, such, such a key part of being in the team and that we were in. It's just a huge high degree of trust formed at that time.

[00:13:44] Rob: It's a really interesting one though. So when you think about deeply the idea that you could have that for a long standing team, that's relatively easy to get your head around, but I think there's a real opportunity for us to say in cross-organizational teams, how do we accelerate the pace that we get to know each other, who we really are. So is there a way of accelerating the pace of teams that may be just together for a week, or a project to say, well, who am I? Who were you? Who were we? And if we can do that, Then we can probably accelerate the pace that teams can be really effective, even though they may not be together for the best path, however long we've been together now, parents, 30 years or the nurse part of it.

[00:14:29] Dan: Rob, that sounds like a really great approach and that sort of proactivity of accelerating to that point of getting to know each other in order to improve the way that people work together, how I've seen this done. And the quality of that interaction is highly variable isn't it? So there's a sort of temptation, I would say, particularly in the corporate world to stay at that high level to be sort of rather superficial, how can team leaders or team members who want to lead this sort of exercise to accelerate this process, how can they make a high quality process and really genuinely deepen that process to get to what lies beneath? 

[00:15:07] Rob: I think it's, uh, it's easy to talk about and it's really hard to do. I think so often people will say yes, we were evolving. We're still evolving as a team. Well, yeah. Possible it can happen and it does happen. I will inevitably get to know you better as we see each other, observe each other, and we work together, but simple mechanisms like can, what have we used over the years? I think we've had experienced together with people creating social capital through sharing that crucible moments. When have you been at your best when. Not been at your best. When have you been really challenged or at a deeper level, what is your story? Who are the people that you've met, the experiences that you've had that have meant the most things to you?

[00:15:49] Give me a single sentence that somebody once said to you that can change your life. One of your colleagues, Andy service uses that expression, do whatever you want, but know what you're doing. That's actually a really life-changing. sentence and that's had a profound impact on, on who I am actually.

[00:16:06] So tell people those stories, let people in. That's one side of it. I think when you look at an executive team and you ask them the question, what is the real work you do together? Very often, they don't actually do real work together. Most of the time there'll be reporting. So on the one hand, I think it's showing you who I am and then creating code that bonds us together around the challenge that we have to meet the agreement of how we're going to behave with each other. That's part of it and then actually doing stuff together, real work together.

[00:16:37] And I don't buy the idea. Yeah. That, that has to always be face-to-face. I think we've had great interactions in the last two years where teams are formed virtually even without knowing what is the face on the other end of the. I think we can still create that bond. If we are prepared to be a little bit vulnerable, if we're prepared to trust the other people we'll be respectful in the way that I hope I was with pier when she revealed who she was in that early example, but we don't have to be together for 20 years, we can be together for 20 minutes and go quite a long way in that.

[00:17:10] Dan: Rob, I'm going to go back to when you hired me once as well. And, uh, it was a, it's a story that stayed with me. And I, I want to build this out to ask you a couple of question about what makes teams successful. What happened for me was I'd come across this idea of coaching in my corporate life. And when I was joined con. I thought this would be great. If everyone in the organization could coach we'd have a coaching culture, and we'd have higher performance. My meeting with you lasted about half an hour. In that time you managed to recognize it. But ask me some pointed questions about what does the organization want to achieve and why is it, why does it exist? And then you have, I have one of my processes and the disciplines around getting that done before I then look at that competency question. If you like the sort of skills question, and you'd sort of took me back up through these conditions for success for teams. And I wonder if you and well, obviously what happened, yeah, okay. I went into that meeting thinking everyone else had a problem and coming out of it, realizing that I had the problem. mission accomplished.

[00:18:12] Yeah. So, uh, great. Um, so I thought, yeah, I thought it was everyone else and it was actually me. but that was my introduction to these conditions for success for teens. Is that, when did you just talk a little bit about that as we sort of start to look at these interesting groups of folks called teams and how those conditions work. 

[00:18:29] Rob: well, I'd, I'd hate people to think that I was walking away from the idea that coaching is a brilliant thing. So I'm going to tell a little anecdotal story around coaching before we go anywhere else. And it involves my first boss as a consultant who was called Sheena and she said, Margie, Is to liberate you of me as fast as possible. And the way I'm going to do that is to ask you questions. And I will always ask you the same questions and these are those questions. What are we trying to achieve here? Or what are you trying to achieve? What's happening now? And what are you going to do next? 

[00:18:59] I tell that story because really that's all I did with you at the organizational level, I said, what are you trying to achieve as an organization? And I think that helped you to realize that you. Have been clearer. So condition number one, let's get clarity a real clarity of why we exist. What is it we're here to do, what are we trying to achieve in, I think of it as chewing gum and peanuts purpose is the chewing gum. We never get rid of it. It's there forever and peanuts are the crunchy bit. You buy a big one and then you've got to go and get another one. Um, so my encouragement for you is to think about how can we be really clear at every level about what we're trying to achieve? Having said that then, what's the climate we need to achieve, and this is really important point because I think people do jump on the competition. area quickly, not so much attention is given to the language of leadership that we might use to enable that clarity to be achieved. For example, if we go back into, the way different organizations work together across the military, there is a common language of leadership, the NATO sequence of orders, for example, situation, mission, execution, and so on. 

[00:20:09] Pia: Standard operating procedures?

[00:20:12] Rob: Well, they are, they are common language. So do we have a common language which enables the different people who might be involved in a project? Yeah. I haven't seen it too many times where that common language is institutionalized across organizations, or I still haven't seen it many times within an organization. So it goes, I think to my questions to you were around, well, how clear are you really? And I wasn't looking for you to not be clear. Yeah, well, what are the ways you help people? But to understand it, I learned a great expression recently, which was, um, nothing can be explained so clearly that it cannot be misunderstood. Well, common language really helps us to make sure that what I'm trying to say to you is what you're actually understanding. So all I was really doing was using what you wanted, which was coaching to help you to realize that there may be other things that you wanted to do as well as create a coaching culture. And those questions were centered on clarity, climate and competence.

[00:21:12] Pia: And Rob, this is an interesting one. So there's a bit of a myth that certainly from a military perspective, it's all command and control, and there's no ability to be able to make decisions on the ground or teams to recalibrate if the face of different, difficult situations is, is that a myth? And did you see that when you left the military and you went into business, did you see the business did it more, or did it less, what was the difference between the two?

[00:21:39] Rob: I think it there's a lot of confusion around this, so I can't speak for all militaries. I can only speak from my experience, but my experience was that there was never any doubt about the outcome. And there was never any doubt about who was going to achieve that outcome. Um, what do I mean by that? Then my boss would say to me, right, Rob Harris, here's the outcome I want you to achieve. I needed to get some information about this, or I need you to go and do that. And here are the resources that I'm making available to you to do that. So in that respect, there was commanding, I didn't have a choice about that outcome. But within the boundaries that I was given, I had complete freedom, to do that mission with the resources that I'd been allocated in the way that I chose. 

[00:22:24] So yes, at one level there is, command and control, but at the other level there's complete autonomy. So, argument to everybody that I've used since then is you can't have autonomy without direction. So who is providing the direction once you've provided the direction, depending on where you sit in that wonderful leadership pipeline, your job is to get out of the way or to monitor in order to make sure that the conditions are being maintained by the person to whom you have allocated that task.

[00:22:56] So, yes, I am a believer in command and control, but the paradox is that can come with great freedom to act providing we're clear what it is the outcome supposed to be. So fast forward 20 years, how often do we see the biggest opportunity for the leaders that we deal with being to do exactly that spend more time thinking about the outcomes and then being really clear with the people in the team direct reports in the team, what it is that they'd been asked to do, so I make sure they understand. And that they've got the clarity client and competence to achieve it. And the right people who may not be part of their immediate team, there may be resources allocated from elsewhere that they asked for. They can get out of the way don't interfere, move on.

[00:23:43] If your level of confidence in whoever's doing the work is not high, then you might need to monitor a little bit more, but be clear that they're clear what the outcome is. So often you see. Doing something that they've misunderstood with the best will in the world, but it's not what we thought we'd ask them to do in the first place. 

[00:23:59] Pia: It's the greatest use response to do you understand? Which is a yes or no answer. And most of us say yes, when it actually, we haven't got a Scooby do what we just heard, but we'll say yes, cause we don't wanna offend the boss.

[00:24:11] Rob: The best bosses I've worked for in all environments who said, this is what I want you to achieve. Go and have a think about what you're going to do and come back. And just before you actually start, give me an outline of your plan. Great. And I'll get an outline of the plan and they'll say, actually that's not what I thought we'd discussed, so let's just go through that again. Or. Yeah, away you go and off you go. And that is so applicable the executive team level. Where I'm the boss, my what's next becomes your that's my water, my trying to achieve and why. And I'm going to go and work with my team to try to achieve that. And then to delegation, I can't delegate, unless those three conditions exist to a team, right. I can't say crack on with that. If you're not clear, you haven't got a climate that's supportive And you haven't got the competence to do it. So my job then becomes to create those conditions. 

[00:24:59] Dan: Robbie you used that phrase. Um, get out of the way I've seen, there's quite often posted on LinkedIn, this, this sort of well thumbed meme, if you like of, this leadership is hiring good people and getting out of their way, I've always had a problem with that because I feel people do need more conditions than just you avoiding them. And I'm sure that's not what you're saying, could you, just talk a little bit about that? but what that means during that sort of execution phase or going off and doing things i, Yeah. As I said, I've, I've always struggled with that because I think people want more coaching and support than just you leaving them to it and checking out with them at the end. Can you talk a bit about that phase? 

[00:25:35] Rob: Yeah, that's interesting one. I think there's a number of things come out of what you say. So if we have uh, the conditions in place already, then the leader is able to go and look over the horizon. Probably a longer time horizon, the people who are doing the work and spend some time with them. That's part of the leader's role. I agree. Parts of the leader's role is to offer the support required to make the task that we've been invited to do successful. So that may be completely out of the way it may not. So, I think leaders can be clear about that, in this instance, in this task, I am going to be involved because I need to be, or I'll be involved some of the time or I'll be involved none of the time, even at the decision making level I can be clear. This is your decision to make, or this is our decision to make, or for various reasons this is my decision to make. So yes, I, I agree with you, Dan, but if the conditions are there, then where else can I apply my attention usefully?

[00:26:31] So for example, if I'm in a team, is my boss continuing to attend, to coaching me around my personal development, which may be nothing to do with the task so I can devote my attention there. So observation is because of the reactive nature of human beings that we will prefer to get involved in activity to do with the task. Whereas thinking takes a lot of glucose and as a leader, right? I might have a practice of thinking. It means I'm out of the way doing my thinking, or I might have a practice, which is a longer term investment of developing either the team collectively or the people within the team. And I may still have to get involved in the task, but that's only a may. That's not a must.

[00:27:13] Pia: That's also tricky. Isn't it when many people have ascended. The latter in their workplaces based on their expertise. So they've got to a position of leadership and they're leading a team of probably a senior team, but they're still holding onto that to a high degree of expertise something that we quite often say to people, are you leading this or you're doing it. And there's the leadership of the team becomes a bit of a hobby, right? That the main focus of work. I mean, do you see that too in your work that just pick people want to be that the expert they want to get their hands dirty and get in, and that actually disempowers the rest of the team, to really be accountable for their outcomes? 

[00:28:00] Rob: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I said all the time, there's two, two levels at which we can answer that one is the individual level and the other is the organizational level. So at the individual level, we're bound, aren't we to do what we're comfortable doing. we're bound to work with the people we most like, or we're most unless we have the discipline so be able to do it differently. So I think our job and the job of the leaders in the organization is to ensure that the practices associated with leadership are indeed that practices, which implies habits and routines. So we're not going to change behavior naturally unless there's an expectation that we have new practices associated with our role as leaders. And I think we can help with that, and the organization can help with that because I am likely to, always, and I do that every day, myself. I tend to, to not want to do those things that are unusual to me until they become a new habit until I put down the new neural circuitry to be able to do that.

[00:29:04] When people do do that and get results from that, they get rewarded for it, which brings me to the second rewarded the I get, they get satisfaction from it. So for example, if I've never coached and I'm in the early days of coaching, I coach one person a week or one person a day, or whatever's feasible for me. And that works. It's likely to lay down that reward circuitry. And so I'm likely to repeat it.

[00:29:30] If I am rewarded for something else, which is the organizational point. if I'm only rewarded by the processes of the organization for the results that I deliver. That are focused purely on the task, then that's a different sort of an issue. So what you measure is what you get, and I see this all the time with sales teams, we're encouraging a behavior, but we're rewarding a result which may not involve that behavior. So how can we design our systems? How can we design the climate in a way. And courage is the behavior that we seek from a leadership perspective, not just encourages the results. I think we're more likely to see that in private companies than we are in public companies because of the way the market perceives them. But I also think we have a tendency towards rewarding, a result that is task-based rather than the result, that is behavior based. And of course, leadership is both results and behavior.

[00:30:33] Dan: I think that's really powerful, Rob, actually, that's a great takeaway for me. Just, one last question for you. Thank you so much for joining us. We've we've really just done a huge trip around the, uh, the world of, of teams. I think it just, just zooming out a little bit from these mysteriously units themselves, you talk a little bit about how teams can work. Together, you know, across an organization. So how can they connect and how does that work? And also if you can, what are the challenges they might hit in trying to do that? 

[00:31:01] Rob: Yeah, I think there's a in my experience, our view that a lot of social capital has to have been created before teams can come together. And I think that's a bit of a myth it's a nice to have, but it's a bit of a myth. So again, if I go to the team of teams sort of approach, and I think this was well written up in the book team of teams that you can put your very best people away from the task that they may be very best to act and put them into a part of the organization where they're going to create that social capital really nice to have. So if you've got a really talented person in marketing, well, why not put them in sales? For a while. If you've got a really talented finance person, why not put them in some other part of the organization for a while so they learn that and they create the capital to come together more readily.

[00:31:54] But it, I think that's the key. I'm going to go back to where we started without any of that. I still think if we have a significant performance challenge, which is well-designed and meaningful and important, and we bring people together who may not know each other. And equipped them with a process that enables work to happen. That is a decision-making process. For example again, going back to the, well, what are we trying to achieve here? What's the situation now? What are all the factors? So what about those factors? What are our options? How can we move this forward? That's the process that if everybody understands it and everybody can use it. Play those things back to each other, then we have clarity and way, way more important. I think, to bring the team together that that exists than that I actually know you. And of course, then I can get to know you. We can do some of those things we talked about earlier by sharing a little bit about who am I? Who are you? Who are we?

[00:32:56] So. In summary, I think it's, what's the challenge? Who do we need in order to achieve it? What's the process we're going to use in order to achieve it? What is the discipline, the habit routine cadence? And it's a reminder for me to success equals goals, clarity, plus discipline, routines, and habits. What are those things that can help us to move this forward? And I go back to those macro examples of an amphibious landing, in which I've participated where you didn't know that pilot, you didn't know the guy go, no, you didn't know any of those people, but boy were, they all focused on trying to achieve the same thing. And of course the challenge is you can fall out the challenges. You can be fatigued, but there's a big risk minimization in having a common process and a common goal.

[00:33:45] Pia: I mean, I really liked that term about that Sydney significant performance challenge. When you're working, what are, you got a bigger challenge then it's that sense of coming together, collaborating, putting that collective wisdom and achieving the result together. And yet, we can all be too easily divided as humans. You know, we, we see that in today. We've seen that in a whole range of, of circumstance. I think everything you've talked about Rob is about conscious choices, a conscious choice of your mindset, conscious choice, the disciplines, conscious choices of the, the way that you you see the value of the humans around you and what you can achieve with that?

[00:34:28] One last thing before we leave then, so most interesting team that you've ever been a part of a little anecdote, just to leave us from your lovely long checkered history?

[00:34:40] Rob: So there are a few, a few to go up, but the one that first Springs to mind is when I first came out of training and I was, again, A Marine officer, just out of training or at least a partly trained Marine officer, because you go through a year's training and then a year in the field before you get properly accredited as it were. And I went straight out into an operational area. In other words, the zone where real things were happening. And in that team, I had some very experienced people who really did. Necessarily what to have me around, straight out of training. And we were very fortunate because in that team, we had three different rotations.

[00:35:15] All of which were really clear. One was a kind of guard duty. One was patrolling around a town and woman's going out in the field for a week, we fortunately arrived when I was on guard duty and. As an aside, I instantly became a legend. I was so happy to be there. I jumped up on the helicopter pad into a puddle, the puddle was 16 feet deep, and I was the F I was the first, we were, I was the casualty of the day with 16 stitches. So I was a legend in my own lunchtime. And people were really looking forward to working with me as you can imagine.

[00:35:45] But anyway, my, my job in that first week, I didn't have an awful lot to do so it taught me a big lesson. So I just sat just talk to my guys. I asked them who they were, what they wanted to achieve, what their ambitions were. And, without being too loving around them, there was no tough love involved. I just got, I got to know them really, really well. And then quite evidently, when we went into the second of the rotations, which was patrolling around the town, it was clear that I was a bit of a novice. And so all that social capital that had been. On the first the first rotation really, really helped me to get the support I needed. So it was actually the team that created the conditions for success for me. And that's kind of stayed with me. 

[00:36:31] I know I said social capital, not critical, but it really helps on that occasion. And I remember all of those people, like it yesterday and how they would giggle at me, but they would protect me because they knew I cared about them. And maybe that's a way to summarize: people don't care how much, but they really want to know how much you care. And if you do as a leader, then they will help you to create the conditions for success.

[00:36:59] Pia: Oh, that that is brilliant. Rob. I think that's a fantastic way to, to close and a brilliant story. Um, and I think it just brings into sharp focus, it's not just about the task. It's about people. It's about the level of trust and respect that you create. And again, those are the conscious choices to create that. So you've given us a mountain of stuff to think about really rich, rich thoughts, and a great way set off this podcast and we'll be exploring lots of these, hopefully not jumping in 16 foot holes in the process, but, um, yeah, it's been great. So thank you. Thank you so much for joining us and um, look forward to taking this further and, uh, into more detail in the coming episodes. 

[00:37:43] Rob: Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

[00:37:44] Pia: Well, wow, that was a humdinger of a first episode, a lot of juicy insights. 

[00:37:55] what did you do? What did you take out of that done? 

[00:37:57] Dan: I suppose, where, where Rob started and finished really, was there some significant performance challenge? I hadn't thought about it that way in that way, before that you've got these, these things that to do that are so big, that you need groups of people, and also I liked that take, which is very often come together when there's a need, but actually how do we create that need by being more proactive? So we're reactive normally, how do we get, become proactive about something we want to achieve in order to bring people together to achieve it? I thought that was a really great insight. What about you, Pete? What did you, what was your 

[00:38:30] Pia: well, it was a couple one I think was sort of like a clarification one. So, you know, being poor hosts, we were still learning it this week. We didn't, we didn't pick up on it. So social capital. So maybe the might be people thinking live well, is that or everyone has a much better idea than, than we do, but I am. My, my sort of understanding is it's that give and take that sort of reciprocity. That good feeling that you have that trust that you have, and you have to build it. You can't make assumptions that it's there. You've actually got to go? and consciously think about? how you build and develop stakeholder relationships, just like he did by spending the time in the hanger with the guys, really getting to know them. And I think that was a really insightful last story at the end. 

[00:39:12] Dan: It's your sort of network and the quality of those relationships, isn't it, as you said, and that Def definitely involves that give and take. And I think it's a nifty thing to think about. I think that people have an innate sense of it, but making those conscious choices as he, as he referred to a few times about this is, is key.

[00:39:27] Pia: And I think that shit not taking it for granted. And then the other part course that he mentioned a lot was around these conditions for success. So, think you're looking at enabling conditions, things that are, that are really going to help the team to thrive. And he talked about how clear that clarity that you need to have in the team. And you can really assume that people understand, but there may be nodding, but they may not know. And it is good to try and check out that people do actually do have an understanding of that. And then the climate, the environment that. That you create around the team that helps them. And then lastly the, the competence how'd you build that capability for individuals and for the team. So I think that's really useful not seeing the outcomes just as a target or a financial or a outcomes, but actually you've got this more holistic element. So, and I think that was that sort of widens out the way that you see things. I think that was a really valuable part. 

[00:40:25] Dan: I think that's the feeling I'm left with after talking to Rob that sort of wide view. I think it's been a great start to our series. I hope for all our listeners have enjoyed that. And that is really getting close to a wrap for episode one. What what's coming up in episode two peer, talk to us about that.

[00:40:39] Pia: Oh, wow. In episode two, we've got, um, working from anywhere there's a little bit topical at the moment. So given that two thirds of us are working in a hybrid way, but what are the challenges for that for leading a team that you are seeing every day in boxes on your laptop, how do we manage that? How do we build, we talking about that social capital. Create that sense of teamwork. So we've got HR director, Michelle's Amani from Sanofi coming to join us. And she is doing some wonderful work in hybrid working and really gone to town and to support their employees. So be great to get her perspective on uh, on what's going on.

[00:41:19] Dan: Michelle is great and really looking forward to talking to her. And, um, you can get more resources on about this show on spotify.net, just click on the we, not me podcast link, and you can also go to Facebook and ask us questions, which we'll handle in future shows. So just search for squatter, find there as well, and just get engaged, and we'll, uh, we'll come back to your questions.

[00:41:40] We're not meat is produced by Mark Steadman and it's presented by me, Dan and appear Lee certain is a big goodbye from us and we look forward to seeing you next time.

[00:41:50] Pia: Bye-bye see you soon.