Announcer: Welcome to the Orange Tea, where we explore what it
means to be T-shaped professionals, broaden in perspective, deepen
expertise, and abreast of
innovation.
Hosted by Stephen M. Perry, founder and
Announcer: CEO of Kymanox.
We unpack ideas that shape the future, build exceptional teams, and
create lasting impact from thought leadership on performance and wellness.
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holistically and grow intentionally.
Just like the people who make Kymanox a leader in the life science industry.
Stephen M. Perry: Welcome to the Orange Tea, and today we
have our guest, Roger Lias.
Roger.
You have a, a term that I heard you throw around in the office
and you said you got yes to death.
Could you explain that to the audience?
Roger Lias: Yeah.
This
was during my time, managing folks in India primarily, well, entirely.
I've, I've had a couple
Roger Lias: of stints working with Indian companies and we were talking
about cultural differences in
leadership styles.
And, one of the observations
Roger Lias: I had, which was an interesting one, that I, I would sit
with my Indian management team, senior people, not junior people by any means.
We'd have our weekly meetings, you know, all right, what if we gotta do this week?
You know, Western style?
Let's do it.
Yes, we're gonna get that done.
Yes, we understand that.
Yes, that'll be done.
Yes, that'll be done seven days later, next Monday.
Nothing, nothing has been done at all.
And that's what I call being yes.
To death.
And a lot of it is to
do, I think with the, hierarchical style of or management, situation over there.
Roger Lias: Now,
it's very interesting.
somewhat similar in
Roger Lias: South Korea actually, but for completely different reasons.
So what's, what's happening behind the scenes?
So they're,
Stephen M. Perry: they're telling you Yes.
Right?
Yep.
To your face.
Mm-hmm.
And you're, you're a top leader, right?
Yep.
And then, then what's happening behind the scenes, do you think?
So what it is,
Roger Lias: this, this was not happening at, you know, multinationals
or anything, they operate much the same way as they would
over here.
But these, you have this promoter
Roger Lias: model in India where the, the promoters, the
key investors stay involved.
Okay.
And all decisions go up to them all the time.
There's, they're not pushing down responsibility
and ownership and, and people don't take
Roger Lias: that responsibility, anything.
Like as easily and as readily as they do over here.
And
that's, you know, it's, so it has to kind of
Roger Lias: trickle back up to the promoter.
It not, not trickle at all unless in this particular case, unless the
promoter said or is in the room or I got the minutes signed off by him,
nothing ever happened and it was okay.
It takes, yeah, it was very interesting.
Now you can work around it.
Once you figure out what's happening and how the culture works over there,
it's, you know, it's just different.
yeah, there's ways to work around it and of course, working
with the promoter to help.
You know, get the, get things done is, is the obvious way around it.
But it was really a big eye opener for me.
The first took me a couple of weeks to realize, I'm like, what is going on here?
Nothing is happening.
Yeah.
And you, it's
Stephen M. Perry: it's different than, you know, I had a
Roger Lias: C-Suite title.
It's not like I was the, you know, some strange weirdo from the US coming in.
Right.
Yeah.
So,
Stephen M. Perry: okay, so let's back up a little bit, Roger.
Let's talk a little bit about your background.
So I think.
You and I share a commonality, we're we're dual citizens.
So, I've worked in Germany.
my family and I are EU citizens.
I'm detecting like an accent I'm hearing from you.
Sounds a little bit like outer banks, North Carolina maybe.
Yeah.
so could you tell the audience.
a little bit about your background, where you're from, include where you can,
some of your multicultural experience.
Yeah.
When I first,
Roger Lias: I spent a lot of time in North Carolina.
I've been in the states 37 or so years.
Grew up in the uk.
I was lucky enough to do a PhD in Cambridge and, biochemists.
So, and now stands for Previously Had Depth.
I moved over to the, the dark side, the commercial side of our
business fairly early.
but yeah, came across
Roger Lias: to the states.
About 37 years ago, 10 years or so in the Boston area, about 20 or so years
Roger Lias: here in North Carolina, in this area where we raised our kids.
And then more recently, I'm now in Southern California.
But during those stints, being with.
Multinational companies, a lot of European companies, and then in the
latter part of my career, have spent a lot of time in apac, in particular India,
South Korea, a little bit of time in
Taiwan, some in Japan.
so it's, it is been
Roger Lias: really interesting sort of
seeing how things are, managed differently
Roger Lias: around the world.
We all get there in the end.
I'm not saying different systems and different cultures are wrong in any way.
But they are different, and we need to understand that as we, you know, we
work in a global marketplace and, and developing the products that we develop,
you know, biopharmaceuticals in this case.
It's complex and it's a global business.
It takes a village.
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.
So it sounds like you're a true global executive.
You, like I said, born and raised in the, the uk.
You've got both East Coast and West Coast, experience in the United States.
And I think we were talking previously that those are different cultures,
even just within the United States.
Absolutely.
Could you talk a little bit, about this difference between North Carolina
where you spent quite a few years and that's actually where you and I met?
So we've known each other now for about 25 years.
just as like full disclosure, I used to sneak in Roger's office, so he was one of
the top executives, which is now Fujifilm, DIY Bio Technologies, and I would kind
of sneak into his office and see what publications he was had on his table.
And so there were all these industry publications and I was kind of
sneaking around in his office and.
One of the things I knew about Roger, he was the most well-read executive I'd
ever worked with up until that point.
So that's just like a little fun, fun fact.
So can you talk about the difference between North Carolina and California?
Well, first of all, if was my first stalker, obviously.
So, that's an interesting piece of information.
actually, I'll, I'll
Roger Lias: actually flip the question a little bit.
The bigger cultural change is when I moved from the Boston
area down to North Carolina.
Now, this is a few
years ago yet, but, that was quite a shock.
obviously, you know,
Roger Lias: the south is known for the, you know, the politeness and
everything, but it was much more real
than I'd anticipated.
and it, it comes down
Roger Lias: to things, you know.
Swearing in the office.
So you have nobody worried about it at all.
In Boston, I came down here and it was like, oh my goodness.
You know, let's, let's tamp that down a little bit and
these things make a difference.
It takes a while.
My cynical English sense of humor just didn't fly in north.
When I moved from the UK to the US I had to drop 80% of it.
When I moved from Boston to North Carolina, I had to drop most of
the rest of it 'cause I would just inadvertently offend people.
and we don't, you know, we don't think enough about these things in our
everyday lives or in our business lives.
you know, we're.
The world is changing, right?
It's, yeah, it is global now, and we're, we're understanding these things more, but
it's been a really interesting journey.
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah, I think I moved from Chicago to North Carolina and what
I realized is I couldn't move as fast as I was used to moving in Chicago.
In Chicago, you like, if you don't move fast enough, you
get shot in the office, right?
Yeah.
And it's even, it all goes all the way down to the grocery store.
In North Carolina, I remember my first experience buying groceries.
The person was like grabbing the item, looking at it, commenting on it,
scanning it, and then moving it along.
In Chicago, they just whip it by the scanners as quickly as possible.
Yeah.
And you're, if you don't have your payment ready in advance, you
know, you get, you get quite a few nasty looks from the other patrons.
and then North Carolina, everyone's kind of taking their, their sweet time.
But it doesn't necessarily hamper the productivity.
So I had to kind of like start to embrace the culture, in order
to really get, the, the maximum performance out of my style.
Let's go back to that California question.
So if you're doing business in, say, LA, San Diego, San
Francisco versus, you know, here on the, on the
Stephen M. Perry: East Coast, are there any cultural sensitivities, even things
like, do you, do you dress differently?
Do you order something different at the, at the restaurant?
Roger Lias: Yeah, no, it's, I mean, the dressing
one is interesting.
I think that's changed
Roger Lias: a little bit now.
When I, I was here on the East coast, I used to spend a lot
of time on the West coast.
It was always my nightmare.
'cause you have four, six meetings in a day, you know?
A long time since I've worn a tie.
But you know, some of these meetings would be, you know, jacket and and
tie respect, or the next guys are in flip flops and shores and it's real.
Yeah, I mean, it's very real.
We're
in biotech, right?
so what do you do?
Roger Lias: You dress for the highest common denomin nature, of course.
And just.
Loosen your shirt a little bit more.
I think communication styles, it's, it's very casual on the west coast.
It is more casual than on the East coast and we, we don't think
about those, those differences.
Stephen M. Perry: I'll, I'll add to that.
So I'm in San Diego quite a bit and I noticed the casual.
Interaction.
And what happens is you may not understand the gravitas of the situation.
So while the conversation is casual, the business is just as intense.
The meaning is still there, it's the meaning's still there.
And so that, that took an
adjustment period for me.
my hack by the way,
Stephen M. Perry: is you mentioned the button.
So what I do is I just drop a button when I, when
I head to la.
Yeah.
and same, same for
Stephen M. Perry: Miami, maybe Miami.
I, I may drop two buttons.
Roger Lias: Yeah, but it goes back to the, you know, to some extent
back to the Indian experience, right?
If you go in with a, a California attitude and you just say something casually.
People don't take it that way.
So they don't do anything about it.
They don't think it's real and important.
You've gotta pretty much bang on the table and
sometimes even yell Yep.
to get things done.
Roger Lias: And, but they don't look at that as a bad thing that,
you know, they're used to it.
I mean, it, it's a, it's a cultural difference.
There's nothing right or wrong with it.
If I get yelled at in the office here, I'm like, oh my goodness.
You know, it's the end of the world.
They don't care.
They get yelled at all day long.
Yeah.
And I say that
with great respect.
you know, it's, it's
Roger Lias: just a different way of doing things.
It's the way you.
You know, you go to work
Stephen M. Perry: every day and what you expect.
My college roommate was
from, New York, long Island specifically,
Stephen M. Perry: and when I came back from my first stint at college to spend
time at home again, I had picked up a new word and it was the New York, the, but it
starts with the letter F. And so I just started throwing that around and that was,
you know, you thought Chicago could handle it and it was, it was not well received.
Yeah.
Anytime I'm up in New York, sometimes I come back with, um.
You know that back in my vocabulary and I have to kind of eliminate
it from the vocabulary when I get back here to North Carolina.
Yeah.
Roger Lias: Another interesting one.
And yeah, we talk about Europe as well, and, and you mentioned that we were first
worked together at, cent basically in the
Roger Lias: early days.
They've, they've dropped the cent from the Fujifilm name now, so it's
Fujifilm Bio Technologies.
but I, when we were,
Roger Lias: that
Stephen M. Perry: Cent logo just got smaller and smaller and
now you're telling me it's just
Roger Lias: gone.
Correct.
It's gone.
Okay.
It's completely gone.
Then I remember we were acquired by Cent, part of Axon, Nobel
big European, Dutch, organization, and by
Roger Lias: pure chance I was on a flight.
To the Netherlands and I was next to a guy from Royal Dutch Shell
and we were just talking about, you know, life and and business.
And we, but we started talking about, you know, business styles and I
was a little frustrated 'cause we were trying to do some licensing
deals and it was taking forever to get sort of approvals and go ahead.
And I was losing the deals.
Other people stepped in and did them.
And the gentleman from Royal Dutch Shell, Dutch gentleman said, well,
that's the difference in the us.
If you're going from A to B in a business journey, you start the
journey and you know you have momentum.
And if you take the org.
Wrong turn.
You know, you correct it and you're fine.
Whereas if you're in the Netherlands, you have to know exactly which turns
you're taking and when you're taking them, then how you're gonna get from A
to B. And very often, by the time you then start the journey, it's obsolete.
You don't need to make the journey anymore.
Yeah.
And it's, you know, these ways, cultural
ways of doing things.
so it's, the whole
Roger Lias: thing fascinates me.
Greatly.
I mean, South Korea is another really fascinating place.
The culture is, I love South Korea, but the culture is very
different, the business culture.
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.
And I, I'm a big student of the difference between east versus west.
So if you study ancient Indian
philosophy, which goes back, 6,000 years, there's
Stephen M. Perry: also.
Ancient Chinese philosophy.
There's some really interesting things and what you notice, it's markedly
different from the from the west.
And if you come into the Kaman headquarters here and go into our
boardroom, Roger, you'll notice this massive Chinese wind gong.
It's the the biggest one that we could buy.
I caught quite a bit of flack upgrading that on
our 20th anniversary.
but it's a stark reminder
Stephen M. Perry: that the, that the east is different from the west and
the east has some things that the west doesn't have, and one of them is
the East has this long-term outlook.
So if you go
into the Japanese, boardroom in Japan.
Stephen M. Perry: You'll notice the, you know, the, the, the, the, the age of the
participants really matters.
so age equals wisdom,
Stephen M. Perry: wisdom equals respect, and everyone kind of
follows into that hierarchy.
And what you'll notice is in that Japanese boardroom,
they build decisions, usually by consensus.
usually with detailed
Stephen M. Perry: plans, but based on 100 year outcomes.
And here in the United States it's like, what am I gonna do
in the next a hundred days,
a hundred minutes?
and I think some of
Stephen M. Perry: that's dictated
by publicly traded, companies that have
Stephen M. Perry: to kind of report their earnings every quarter.
And so it's like, what are, what did you do for me this quarter?
What are you gonna do for me next quarter?
And the Chinese take it up a whole level.
Chinese, if you look back at their whole cultural history,
they make decisions based on the impact to the seventh generation.
That's about 250 years.
So it's not a quarter or like three months.
It's a quarter of a millennia.
And so that idea of this long-term outlook, and I think also a long memory.
Brings very stark contrast.
So I think part of the value equation at OX is, hey, we want
to be a little bit different.
We want to embrace these Eastern ideas.
And one of them is let's create lasting long-term value.
And the way we're gonna do that is think long-term and make
decisions based on impact.
I think there's some
Stephen M. Perry: really
Roger Lias: good examples directly in our industry.
And again, I'll go back to South Korea.
You know, capital investment, it takes a long time to, to build and validate
and, you know, use infrastructure, large scale infrastructure for
manufacturing, biologics and, and advanced therapies as well.
So it is very interesting.
If you look at South Korea, you have companies like Samsung and Latte and
you know, prestige biologics and things.
They are prepared to invest vast sums of money in extremely large scale
infrastructure with no expectation of a return for years to come.
But it's forced society right now.
I question 'em a lot about it.
I know some facilities that are sitting quite idle there
right now, and it's not ideal.
But they're not fretting too much about it.
We'd be losing our, our minds over it.
Yeah.
And I would say in, interestingly, in India it's even more different.
They, it's much more, you know, I need a return, you know, in 10 minutes.
So they're very careful with allocating.
They'll still do the spend, but it takes a long time to get it done.
And all of these things factor into your everyday.
Business life as well, and probably even your personal life.
They, it's a different mindset.
Stephen M. Perry: It's very, yeah, it's great when you're visiting around the
world and how the level of patience for the big returns that may not even
be on a 10 year, 10 year horizon, maybe beyond a 10 year horizon.
And I think if you just talk to most American business people, if you try
to have a discussion beyond 10 years, people look at you cross-eyed and
they call you a futurist and some
other bad words.
And, it, it's just hard
Stephen M. Perry: to have a discussion.
It's hard to hold anybody's attention.
Could you talk about leadership style?
So you've been a leader at a lot
of these different, multicultural multinational
Stephen M. Perry: companies or companies that are just based in these
countries around the world.
how, how have you adapted
Stephen M. Perry: your leadership style?
What leadership styles have you seen?
What works in, in this global economy that we have?
Roger Lias: Yeah, I, I think I fairly quickly, I, I'm, you
know, I've got a fairly open collegiate management style, right?
We, we develop these incredibly complex products you need.
A lot of people involved.
We all need to be on the same page.
We need to agree with one another broadly to get things done, is my opinion.
I
learned fairly quickly, especially in Asia,
Roger Lias: you know, Europe's a bit different again, but
we use Asia as the example.
You're not gonna change people's culture.
I mean, you're not gonna, it's very difficult to change your business
culture, let alone obviously one, one Brit American in, in India's not gonna change.
7,000 years of history.
so you have to work
Roger Lias: within the system.
You have to adapt.
I think you have to
be very open-minded.
and part of it is working
Roger Lias: out why things aren't.
Progressing or why you're not getting the traction you need, or whatever it is.
And very often it is down to these hierarchical structures.
So in Korea for instance, I found it actually, once you've sort of figured that
out, there's things that come into play, the language barrier and things, right?
In India, everybody speaks English pretty much, or certainly in your
work life in Korea, that's not the case of senior management.
Good English, but you can't communicate with people further down directly anyway.
So in Korea, I found, as you said, it's same as Japan.
You know, it's a culture based on respect and you know, longevity
to a certain extent.
so working through
Roger Lias: the existing management, Korean management in Korea, if I need
to get something done, I can generally get it done, but there's no point in me
yelling and screaming and asking for it.
I have to talk to someone else to get someone else to yell and scream
and ask for it, and it works.
Is a little different.
And again, I, I gotta be a little careful because there's a big difference between
a a, an Indian multinational, which, you know, they, they're multinationals,
they operate not exactly the same way, but somewhat, you know, parallel with
the way a multinational would, would.
Operate anywhere, but these smaller companies, my opinion
really, or my learning is you can't affect change not that easily.
You have to go to the top man to get anything done and, and it's
this people, it's more of a. And I'm very cautious about saying this.
'cause the work outputs are fantastic.
The people are great, the science is great, the people work hard, but
it's more of a, I equate it to be perhaps of being in the UK in the
1950s, it's go to work nine to five.
And that's not literary.
True.
But go to work, do your hours, you have a tea break at three o'clock.
People aren't as vested in the outcome of
the business.
Yeah.
and therefore, you
Roger Lias: know, they don't.
Take on as much responsibility or, or as take it on as easily and as readily.
They have to be told what to do once they're told what to do.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
I mean, really amazing science and outcomes and everything else, and it's
not that the people aren't capable of, you know, thinking and doing these things,
it's just not the way things are done.
You wait to be told to do something by your manager or your
manager's manager, or, you know,
ultimately in some of these.
sort of smaller private
Roger Lias: companies is, is the boss man, the guy who
invested the money.
and it doesn't matter
Roger Lias: who you are, and it doesn't matter if you're an
English guy who's, you know, run a publicly traded company in the us.
You, you're not gonna change that.
Not easily.
You have to work through it and around it.
So you, and learn from it.
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.
And you used the word like adapt, like you need to adapt to the culture, obviously.
Respect it.
Learn it.
What are some of the things that you did to, to adapt?
Did you learn a couple phrases in the local language?
Did you dress a little bit differently?
Did you order from, from their traditional, you know, menu versus
like, you know, looking for the chicken
tenders?
Roger.
could you just talk
Stephen M. Perry: about some of that adaptation that you've done
at, at a very practical level?
Roger Lias: Yeah.
I'm not a
chicken tenders guy, so, I love Indian and Korean
Roger Lias: food and everything else, so, but that, it counts.
I'm just,
Stephen M. Perry: yeah.
And I was just saying like a stereotypical American diet rather.
Yeah.
What
Roger Lias: you do, you go out and get to know the people, so
embrace the culture, and I'm not talking about work culture now.
I'm talking about.
Get out, go to the restaurants, go to the sporting fixtures, the
cricket matches, get to know the people a bit, and they appreciate it.
They absolutely appreciate it.
So I think that
does go a long way.
you know, more immediately
Roger Lias: at work.
I think one of the things that I found worked very well, because
people weren't used to it, but people over the world, all over the
world have the same drivers, right?
I used to share a lot more information than.
Within reason.
Obviously there's stuff you can't share, but I was happy enough to go in and, and
talk a little bit about how we're doing and you know, what our problems are and
you know, the good stuff, the bad stuff.
And I think in these hierarchical structures, a lot of people
further down the organization just never hear that stuff.
So I found that if I was prepared to open up a little bit about what's going on,
again, within reason, people responded.
Amazingly, you know, a guy in Hyderabad or you know, Osan, South Korea or
wherever it is, is no different than a guy in San Francisco or Boston.
They, they feel empowered when they have information and they, they, you
know, so these people are, are capable without doubt, more than capable
of taking on some of this stuff.
It's just that the system doesn't quite allow them to.
So I, I did find that sharing information again within reason.
Helps now that, I mean that helped you know, over here as well.
I was Cee o of a publicly traded company, used to frustrate
the living heck outta me.
That we were blacked out so much of the time that couldn't share information.
And you know, in this case we're talking about financial information.
I want my guys to understand the good and the bad.
Right.
And, you know, 'cause it helps then, you know, if we gotta make
some difficult decisions, well.
That's the reason, right?
The market is this, or the financials are this, and we have to run a business.
We have to remain solvent and, you know, keep growing everything else.
But when you can't share that perhaps, or a culture does not share that,
or in a publicly traded company, you can't share that, I think it becomes
a lot more difficult to, to motivate people and, and keep them moving.
Stephen M. Perry: I think you, you get, I mean, so at Comox we, one
of the promises that we have for our employees is that we're not
gonna put people in a box, right?
So yeah, we have swim lanes, but you can kind of go underneath the, the, the
little, the little swim lane barrier.
Right.
And I think in order to get people to work for the greater good of,
well, you know, these are modern medicine development programs.
You're trying to commercialize the medicine, you're trying to
get the product to the patient.
The only way to empower them is with knowledge.
And then what I tend to do is I probably
overshare to the extent, where it's like, okay,
Stephen M. Perry: maybe, maybe that's gonna create fear because they
have this additional information.
So is that ever backfired on you culturally or do you
create another set of problems?
Like, for my experiences.
I've unintentionally created fear because I've shared kind of the nitty
gritty of a, a particular program or how the company's doing, and it
kind of like, it kind of backfires.
And I, I still err on the side of sharing additional information because I think
ultimately people want to be autonomous and they want to perform and they
want to be part of something amazing.
And the only way to be a part of something amazing is to have success.
And success in our business mean means getting these
products over the finish line.
Roger Lias: Yeah, I, I don't think it's relevant.
There might be occasions where it's backfired.
I think a lot of it comes down to being somewhat sensible.
About what you're sharing, right.
You can't, not all the dirty underwear needs to
be on display.
Yeah.
so I don't think so.
Roger Lias: I think the positives just vastly outweigh the negatives or potential
negatives.
And again, it's, it's the, you know,
Roger Lias: I'd rather people ask forgiveness than
permission in a lot of ways.
We've gotta keep moving forward.
We've gotta have moment we've gotta go there.
Roger Lias: And I think the vast majority of people doesn't matter if you
are the forklift truck driver or the.
You know, executive VP of something, it doesn't matter if you're India and
China and you know, North Carolina or California, people respond to that.
I firmly believe that.
That's a, that's a human nature and not all people are, because they're
not used to it, are capable of quickly embracing it and, and processing it,
using that knowledge and, you know, uh.
Wisely.
I think that's perhaps a bit of more of a learned experience and you, I
think you learn it much more quickly over here in the States and probably
in Europe than you do in parts of Asia.
I think it's unfortunate.
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah, and I think, I think sharing that information about,
about whatever the you're sharing, right?
I think it helps build trust.
I think the next topic, Roger, is let's talk about trust.
Let's talk about accountability and how that plays out around the globe.
Any.
Any observations on, on those subjects of trust and accountability?
Roger Lias: I think you've gotta walk the walk, right?
I mean, it's, you can't be, people see through you pretty quickly if
you're not, you know, if you're pulling the wall over their eyes or
you're not being trustworthy yourself.
I think there's more blind trust in these hierarchical structures.
Um.
'cause what, what other choice do you have?
Really?
I mean, it's like, okay, but we've gotta assume our management or
executives or whoever is know what they're doing and we'll, we'll follow.
'cause that is the model.
can I, can I share
Stephen M. Perry: one of my experiences?
Of course.
And
so I've worked in, I worked in Stuttgart, Germany for a year.
I, I'm a citizen of
Stephen M. Perry: the, the country Luxembourg with, with my family.
And I don't know, I, I'm from Chicago and I live in North Carolina.
I, I, I kinda have that Midwest upbringing pretty warm, and I think I've embraced,
just growing up in the United States, I've embraced the, you can be my friend,
best friend in about five minutes, and I can embrace you and then we can just
be the best friends ever, either in, in the personal life or in the work life.
And then if there's a betrayal or there's a problem, then you know,
we, we divorce, we, we, we break that relationship or we set, we set boundaries.
And what I noticed when I went over to Europe and tried to become a best friend
from someone right outta the gate, not
Roger Lias: gonna happen.
Stephen M. Perry: It was massive cold shoulder.
And what I realized was it takes years to develop a friendship.
And then once that friendship is solidified.
Nothing breaks the bond.
So could you talk a little bit about, about that, you know, specifically
between the US and Europe on how
we're embracing people, either, you know, in,
Stephen M. Perry: preferably in the workplace, but even,
even in the social settings?
Roger Lias: Yeah, I mean, I think you're spot on.
Obviously I grew up in the uk.
I do a lot
of work even now in, in Europe.
And you
Roger Lias: know, with shout out to my friends, the Swedes and the Nordics I'm
doing a lot of work with at the moment.
They're the ultimate in, you know.
Ice princess, if you like,
or whatever it is.
but once you, once
Roger Lias: you are, once you break through one of them, once you break
through, you're there forever.
Yeah.
So I think it's an interesting observation.
I mean, it's, you know, Europeans stereo stereotypical of view of the US
citizenship is, you know, have a nice day and how are you, no one is ever gonna tell
you, oh God, it's terrible, I'm miserable.
It's, you know, oh, everything's fine.
Right?
It's that, is that more culture, right?
It's that cultural stuff.
So, uh.
Yeah, I, I think,
Stephen M. Perry: yeah, the other, so does that, so does the US then move
business faster because people are just embracing each other as business
partners and just moving, like, like going from zero to a hundred versus Europe,
that things are much more measured.
Like does that slow down?
The business process and how do you work around that?
I think it, or is it just like part of the fraud bleed
Roger Lias: does, although of course a lot of other things come
into play, capital deployment
and everything else.
I, I think of it in
Roger Lias: terms of momentum.
The US maintains momentum right by.
Maybe it's by backslapping and going to the bar together.
There's lots of other things in play as well.
But my, I've been here a long time now, so sometimes it's, you know, when
I think of European business practice sometimes I'm thinking of 30 years
ago and things have changed over there as well, but to me it's about America
has that can do attitude, right?
Still does.
Always has through its, you know, foundation.
And that culture I think definitely is a, an an advantage when.
Developing a biologic, for instance, let's get it done.
It's a can-do at if you'd rather than, oh, that's gonna be a problem
and that's gonna be a problem.
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.
And what I noticed is it's, there's a cockiness and even con like
confidence and cockiness in the United States where, okay, I've never
done this before, but I'm smart.
I can figure it out.
I've got Google, I can Google it, I can just do this.
And then in Europe, you know, these are very accomplished professionals.
These people are
actually academically.
more credentialed than
Stephen M. Perry: their US counterparts.
They actually
have more on their, CV in terms of experience,
Stephen M. Perry: and they're very measured about what is possible and
what is the likelihood of success.
And I feel like honestly, that can slow Europe down a little bit, but it's, it's
also very reassuring.
that's why I'm, I'm
Stephen M. Perry: only driving exclusively German automobiles right now, Roger.
It's very reassuring because when they do say yes, and when they do jump in, yeah.
They, they have all the boxes checked.
Roger Lias: Yeah.
We're gonna, we need to be aware though.
But you know, in, within the US you know, culture works and everything
else, people see the US as being pretty obnoxious sometimes.
And we, we shouldn't do that.
We're gotta make sure if we need to be working together, we don't wanna
upset our European counterparts, which we do fairly regularly.
Probably particularly now in the current political situation.
It's really quite.
Depressing to talk to European colleagues right now about the
US and we're we, you know, we're creating a, this is big picture now.
Of course we're creating a, a pretty bad situation in my opinion, but even just
in more general that I, I think the US is, you know, still quite insular, right?
I mean the, I dunno what the percentages are now, but the percentage of
Europeans have a passport versus the percentage of the US has a
passport is a radical difference.
So, you know, we tend to look quite inward in the US and I,
I, yeah, I'm biased, right?
I'm a European by birth, but I think it's, it's quite sad.
We, we don't really.
Embrace the rest of the world very much
Stephen M. Perry: and we're not edu I think we lack as, as the
country as a whole.
I mean these are just
Stephen M. Perry: all generalizations, right?
I think we lack the educating ourselves about all these other
cultures and the, the long histories.
I mean, the United States has a relatively short history.
There are buildings that you can walk to in, in Europe and
even, my goodness in Asia and.
This is multiples of how long the United States has existed in terms of just a
discovered country.
Yep.
from, from that time.
so I, I'm very sensitive
Stephen M. Perry: to not being the
obnoxious American loud.
you know, blow hard
Stephen M. Perry: American, you know, either on vacation
or in the business meetings.
But I do like to bring that risk taking and that energy level and let that bleed
over a little bit, for our European colleagues.
Roger Lias: And that's, yeah, with the, it's, there's plenty
of ways to skin a cat, right?
We should embrace and find.
Best set from everything, but no one culture can say our way is best.
It just isn't.
I, we need to understand that and look for opportunities to embrace.
Yeah.
As you said earlier, maybe eastern culture and forward thinking comes into it.
There's, there's so many.
It's a big world out there.
Stephen M. Perry: A lot.
What I noticed, Roger, I think one of the reasons the US kind of gets
away with this bad behavior or like we're not studying all the.
Cultural differences, we're not learning about the histories of all
these countries is because when you look at global healthcare, spending us
is so dominant in the spending, right?
Yeah.
So no matter who you are, you're a, an engineer, a scientist, just a
business person with a new idea that is gonna be a, a new modern medicine
or a, a new modern, treatment.
For patients
Stephen M. Perry: in need, your market is going to be in the us and so I think
there's this, this, false belief that everything's
Stephen M. Perry: happening in the United States when in reality, when we start to
unpack the supply chain, there's a lot of things that are happening for those us.
Companies, those US-based products, those things that have, were, were,
you know, born and made here in the United States, and there is a heavy
reliance on the global supply chain.
So could you talk a little bit about that
global supply chain and, the, the importance
Stephen M. Perry: it has?
Oh, in our
Roger Lias: business it's massive.
As, as it happens.
Little over a year ago, I was pulled into
a, a e five, for which at the time was
Roger Lias: confidential.
Now it's known about, at the Bayer International
Roger Lias: Convention talking exactly about supply chain.
And we were talking about, you know, at that point, you know, it's
batteries and rarer of minerals and, and its real supply chain.
We are dependent on the rest of the world, including China, and, you know.
Yep.
And I, I think we are gonna run, personally, we're gonna run ourselves
into a lot of problems if we keep down the, the current path without getting
into sort of naked politics or anything.
You know,
exceptionalism works to a point.
but we're in a global,
Roger Lias: a global world.
We are, yeah.
Now.
Can you theoretically, you know, reshore onshore your supply chain.
Yeah.
But it's gonna take years and years and years.
And in some cases we simply don't have the materials.
Right.
The raw materials.
So we still need to go to Uzbekistan or wherever it is.
Yeah.
Where we're mining our boron, you know, it's like
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.
And you're not, you're not always dealing with, you know,
a thermo fisher or whatever,
whoever's in your, supply chain.
Um.
You're
Stephen M. Perry: sometimes dealing with a, a niche company that's
really only located in that country.
And so this is where you need to really be sensitive as a
business person, as and as just
as a, as a visitor.
and that could be.
Stephen M. Perry: The only supplier or maybe the only one of two
suppliers in the world that can really provide what you need.
We're,
Roger Lias: we're
Stephen M. Perry: not gonna be self-sustaining
Roger Lias: in bananas anytime soon.
Right.
And it's the same principle, right?
I mean, some things only come from certain parts of the world.
Yeah.
So,
yeah, and I think, that's where even,
Stephen M. Perry: even if you're thinking that, okay, all the growth is the United
States, all the capital is being deployed in the United States, a lot of the, a lot
of the innovations in the United States, it's like, well, even if that is true, and
it's not always true.
the supply chain is,
Stephen M. Perry: is we're global supply chain.
She's
Roger Lias: reliant on a global supply chain.
Yeah.
And that's, you know, in biopharmaceuticals again, perhaps less
so in biopharmaceuticals than some other.
Industrial areas, but it's still, you know, it only takes one or two
things to be missing and you're done.
I mean, that's the end.
Let's talk about, Saudi Arabia.
I think
Stephen M. Perry: that's an interesting country.
They obviously
have quite a bit of, money from their oil-based
Stephen M. Perry: economy, and I think strategically they're trying
to wean themselves off and diversify.
Their, their country, for, you know, their,
Stephen M. Perry: their a hundred year, their a thousand year future.
And they're really
leaning into, you know, advanced therapies
Stephen M. Perry: and, and, you
know, biologics and, drugs as a.
Part of
Stephen M. Perry: their country and making these large investments at
the government level.
could you talk a little
Stephen M. Perry: bit about what
you know there and, how, how do you think
Stephen M. Perry: that's gonna play out over the next five years?
Yeah, I
Roger Lias: think money talks of course, and it's not just Saudi Arabia got
Emirates and Jordan and a lot of areas, and even so all those oil producing
countries, other parts of North Africa as well, they're starting to, you know,
invest in, you know, more domestic.
Pharmaceutical manufacturing put, put simply, it, it'll happen for
Roger Lias: sure.
That's an interesting one.
'cause we talk about resources and materials.
In that case, they, they have the money and the engineering capabilities
and things to do these things.
It's actually people, so the, the resource then is actually.
Ver largely people coming from the US and Europe and we, we
shouldn't forget that either.
So it takes time.
They need expertise.
but it, it'll, well,
Roger Lias: it is happening.
It's not case of it will happening.
It's very much
Stephen M. Perry: happening.
and I think of like
Roger Lias: the
Stephen M. Perry: Samsung biologic story.
Did, I mean, did, did Korea really have biopharmaceutical development
and manufacturing in their core DNA or did they import that for
years and had to build it up?
They had manufacturing in their
Roger Lias: core DNA, but they didn't really have.
Bio manufac the bio bit, but they've, they've built it incredibly successfully.
I just know, I just know a
Stephen M. Perry: lot of of people that were imported to specifically the
Samsung Biologics, project.
Yep.
And then.
Stephen M. Perry: Now, and they, you know, they put in multi-year stints.
Yeah.
And I felt like that was a strategic initiative from Absolutely.
From Samsung to, to import that knowledge.
Roger Lias: Yeah.
And China, no different as well.
I mean that, and one interesting when I was thinking about, you
know, this podcast, one of the back to the culture thing, right?
There's, there's, and now again, I'm not picking on any, but if we
look at India, a lot of expats, you know, come to the US or Europe to.
Or Australia, wherever, to be educated and to get experience
and then go back to India.
One observation I made is a lot of them very quickly integrate back into the, to
their home culture, understandably, in terms of leadership and management style.
So you've got the, you bring the technical, you know, expertise,
but the, that sort of western leadership does not translate,
integrate, translate back in again.
It immediately reverts back to, to what works wherever you are.
Stephen M. Perry: Let's get to some of the takeaways.
So if you were to advise a younger version of yourself who, who's now had this
amazing, stellar global biopharmaceutical career, what are some of the takeaways
you would give your yourself just starting out in this, this business?
All
Roger Lias: right.
I, I think a big one for me is if a door opens.
Take it, you know, walk through it,
that's for sure.
Okay.
we, we have massive
Roger Lias: opportunity in our industry here.
You know, we have our
struggles right now, capital markets and
Roger Lias: what have you, but the, the potential of these products
and, you know, now, especially with cellular therapies and things like,
it's just, you know, this is, this
could change society.
so I think it's a great
Roger Lias: field to be in, but yeah, take, take those opportunities.
When they arise, they will arise.
You know, I think back to, you know, what would my life have been like if I hadn't?
Taken that opportunity to come across to the US 37 years ago.
Yeah.
Stephen M. Perry: Can you, can we back, can we back up and talk?
Yeah.
Talk about that.
So you were, were you a grad student or, yeah.
No, I'd finished my PhD. I was working for a company.
Okay, so postdoc?
Not
Roger Lias: postdoc, actually, no.
I was done with academic.
So you were working in industry?
Yeah, I, I was working for a company called Medi Sense,
and we were doing, biosensor, diagnos
Roger Lias: Diagnostics, and I was an en entomologist.
Essentially, IM mobilizing enzymes.
Agnostic use and I was, the story's quite interesting.
I was sitting in the lab one day, I was, you know, I was just lab rat, right?
PhD scientist and you know, called Roger.
It's the gentleman's name is Ron Van, he's the chairman of the company.
And I thought someone was putting my leg on.
Right.
So I'm like, hello?
Yeah, sure enough, it was, and they'd had a board meeting
and, and he wanted, you know, five 10 Ks
Roger Lias: filed for these diagnostic products.
Roger, do you know what a five 10 K is?
Sort of something to do with the FDA good enough?
Pick someone else out of the lab.
I want you to, we were in Oxford area in the uk, fly to Boston, Massachusetts.
There was a consultant there.
So this is
Stephen M. Perry: opportunity knocking.
Yeah,
Roger Lias: this is, and then yeah, this is, and this is like, this is Wednesday.
I want you to find Friday.
Right.
So.
Jumped at it.
Right.
And so it, so it was a three week stint happened to be over Christmas, period.
We had to get, you know, we had to do the label copy and all this stuff.
I, we didn't know what we were doing.
We're making it up as we were going along.
I think even the consultant respectfully was helping us.
Didn't know everything you needed to know, but we got it done and
we filed these 3, 5, 10 Ks and it was a fun experience, right?
We worked our rear ends off.
Took advantage of it.
It was snowing cold as hell in Boston for three weeks, but that three weeks
results didn't come back for three months and then three years on an H
one B visa and then a green card and a wife and kids and life changes.
Yeah.
Stephen M. Perry: So you, it's kind of funny that you
got your opportunity knocking
wasn't some next gen.
biotech program, but
Stephen M. Perry: it was a, oh no.
In vitro diagnostic.
Is that what that was?
Yeah.
Basically
Roger Lias: the, the technology is still fundamentally the same now for
a lot of these blood glucose monitors for, for diabetes, but we had tests
for cholesterol and acetaminophen poisoning and all sorts of things.
I'll tell you one day about the clinical trials at Cook Hospital in Chicago.
That was fun.
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.
But now you're at a company in ox where we're actually the
world's number one.
professional services
Stephen M. Perry: firm for combination products.
So this is, you know, a, a, a high value biologic in some type
of dose delivery system that's classified as a medical device.
And there's a whole other set of regulations called part four
if you're in the us.
that kind of governs
Stephen M. Perry: these, these combination product.
And what's funny is you're, you're like, Hey, see, I just let me focus
on the biologics, but your background is, is actually on that device side.
Roger Lias: Very early background.
Yeah, very
early background.
So I, I then got an opportunity
Roger Lias: to move in.
Yeah.
We were doing.
Planograms for CVS and, you know, Sunday supplements in
the Boston Globe and things.
But yeah.
But Dr. Nick, far from Dr. Nick
Lano runs our, IVD program.
I think
Stephen M. Perry: he's got an opening, Roger, so, oh, I say if, if the door
Roger Lias: opens, you gotta walk through it.
Maybe
that's my next step.
So, okay.
But yeah, I,
Roger Lias: I move, say long time ago into the biologics manufacturing,
so I've been basically of my 37 years here, only the first.
Couple of years where Yeah.
In that side of the, that side of the fence.
alright, so that, that's
Stephen M. Perry: a
great word of wisdom, is when an opportunity
Stephen M. Perry: knocks,
go through the door, run through the door.
Stephen M. Perry: Absolutely.
And knock the
Roger Lias: damn door down if you have to.
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.
But if there's a hint of an opportunity.
Any, any other takeaways, any other wisdom you'd give your younger self?
Oh
Roger Lias: boy.
Um.
That's probably a, a whole lot in, you know, personal life and real life.
But no, I mean I've been very
fortunate and I think, again, the back to
Roger Lias: the culture and the travel, take that travel opportunity
every opportunity you can get.
I think it's the, that great education.
I encourage, you know, my own kids now, you know, in their early twenties.
Take it, do it, travel, get out there.
There's a big world out there.
That's great advice.
Yeah.
So yeah,
Stephen M. Perry: I'll,
Roger Lias: I'll leave it at that.
Okay.
Stephen M. Perry: Alright.
Well thanks everyone.
We appreciate
Roger Lias: it.
I, I haven't got long enough to go over all the stumbles and
mistakes I've made, so Yeah.
That'll
Stephen M. Perry: be a whole other podcast.
It would
Roger Lias: do a, a four week series for that.
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.
And I, and actually I like failure.
I mean, everyone I think's scared of failure and it's like, look, when we're
running experiments at, at, for on behalf of our clients here at Chime Ox.
And the experiment goes as planned.
We learn nothing.
We absolutely learn nothing.
Roger.
Yeah.
Embrace the suck.
And so when the experiment fails, we, we then investigate why.
And then we, we keep, you know, asking why, why, why?
And then eventually we gain a new understanding.
And so where all the learning occurs about product and process
knowledge, which ultimately benefits the, the patient is when we fail.
Absolutely.
So I think, I think people need
Stephen M. Perry: to.
Embrace failure.
Yep.
Dust yourself off.
Yep.
Dust yourself off.
Get up
and, and go.
And then, I'd like Roger's advice.
Stephen M. Perry: I'll, I'll end on that.
Schedule that trip.
Get out and see the world.
Roger Lias: Don't take things too personally either in your business life.
There's, there's always reasons behind it, especially if you're in
business development and things.
You gotta get used
to rejection.
But, don't, don't, don't
Roger Lias: let the bastards get you down.
Excuse my language.
That's great.
Stephen M. Perry: All right.
Thanks everybody.
Thank you, Roger.
Appreciate it.
Welcome.
Thanks Steve.
Take care.
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