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Announcer: Welcome to the Orange
Tea, where we explore what it

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means to be T-shaped professionals,
broaden in perspective, deepen

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expertise, and abreast of

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innovation.

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Hosted by  Stephen M. Perry, founder and

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Announcer: CEO of Kymanox.

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We unpack ideas that shape the
future, build exceptional teams, and

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create lasting impact from thought
leadership on performance and wellness.

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To insights into modern healthcare,
this is your space to think

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holistically and grow intentionally.

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Just like the people who make Kymanox
a leader in the life science industry.

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Stephen M. Perry: Welcome to
the Orange Tea, and today we

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have our guest, Roger Lias.

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Roger.

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You have a, a term that I heard
you throw around in the office

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and you said you got yes to death.

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Could you explain that to the audience?

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Roger Lias: Yeah.

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This

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was during my time,  managing folks
in India primarily, well, entirely.

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I've, I've had a couple

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Roger Lias: of stints working with
Indian companies and we were talking

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about cultural differences in

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leadership styles.

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And,  one of the observations

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Roger Lias: I had, which was an
interesting one, that I, I would sit

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with my Indian management team,  senior
people, not junior people by any means.

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We'd have our weekly meetings, you know,
all right, what if we gotta do this week?

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You know, Western style?

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Let's do it.

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Yes, we're gonna get that done.

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Yes, we understand that.

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Yes, that'll be done.

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Yes, that'll be done seven
days later, next Monday.

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Nothing, nothing has been done at all.

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And that's what I call being yes.

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To death.

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And a lot of it is to

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do, I think with the,  hierarchical style
of or management,  situation over there.

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Roger Lias: Now,

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it's very interesting.

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somewhat similar in

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Roger Lias: South Korea actually,
but for completely different reasons.

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So what's, what's happening
behind the scenes?

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So they're,

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Stephen M. Perry: they're telling you Yes.

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Right?

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Yep.

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To your face.

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Mm-hmm.

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And you're, you're a top leader, right?

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Yep.

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And then, then what's happening
behind the scenes, do you think?

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So what it is,

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Roger Lias: this, this was not
happening at, you know, multinationals

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or anything, they operate much
the same way as they would

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over here.

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But these,  you have this promoter

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Roger Lias: model in India
where the, the promoters, the

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key investors stay involved.

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Okay.

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And all decisions go up
to them all the time.

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There's, they're not
pushing down responsibility

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and ownership and,  and people don't take

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Roger Lias: that responsibility, anything.

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Like as easily and as
readily as they do over here.

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And

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that's, you know, it's,
so it has to kind of

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Roger Lias: trickle
back up to the promoter.

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It not, not trickle at all unless
in this particular case, unless the

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promoter said or is in the room or
I got the minutes signed off by him,

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nothing ever happened and it was okay.

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It takes, yeah, it was very interesting.

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Now you can work around it.

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Once you figure out what's happening
and how the culture works over there,

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it's, you know, it's just different.

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yeah, there's ways to work
around it and of course, working

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with the promoter to help.

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You know, get the, get things done
is, is the obvious way around it.

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But it was really a big eye opener for me.

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The first took me a couple of weeks to
realize, I'm like, what is going on here?

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Nothing is happening.

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Yeah.

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And you, it's

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Stephen M. Perry: it's different
than, you know, I had a

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Roger Lias: C-Suite title.

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It's not like I was the, you know, some
strange weirdo from the US coming in.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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So,

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Stephen M. Perry: okay, so let's
back up a little bit, Roger.

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Let's talk a little bit
about your background.

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So I think.

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You and I share a commonality,
we're we're dual citizens.

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So,  I've worked in Germany.

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my family and I are EU citizens.

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I'm detecting like an
accent I'm hearing from you.

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Sounds a little bit like outer
banks, North Carolina maybe.

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Yeah.

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so could you tell the audience.

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a little bit about your background,
where you're from, include where you can,

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some of your multicultural experience.

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Yeah.

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When I first,

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Roger Lias: I spent a lot
of time in North Carolina.

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I've been in the states 37 or so years.

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Grew up in the uk.

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I was lucky enough to do a PhD
in Cambridge and,  biochemists.

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So, and now stands for
Previously Had Depth.

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I moved over to the, the dark
side, the commercial side of our

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business fairly early.

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but yeah, came across

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Roger Lias: to the states.

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About 37 years ago,  10 years or so in
the Boston area,  about 20 or so years

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Roger Lias: here in North Carolina,
in this area where we raised our kids.

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And then more recently, I'm
now in Southern California.

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But during those stints,  being with.

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Multinational companies, a lot of
European companies, and then in the

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latter part of my career, have spent a
lot of time in apac,  in particular India,

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South Korea, a little bit of time in

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Taiwan, some in Japan.

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so it's, it is been

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Roger Lias: really interesting sort of

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seeing how things
are,  managed differently

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Roger Lias: around the world.

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We all get there in the end.

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I'm not saying different systems and
different cultures are wrong in any way.

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But they are different, and we need
to understand that as we, you know, we

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work in a global marketplace and, and
developing the products that we develop,

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you know, biopharmaceuticals in this case.

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It's complex and it's a global business.

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It takes a village.

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Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.

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So it sounds like you're
a true global executive.

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You, like I said, born
and raised in the, the uk.

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You've got both East Coast and West
Coast,  experience in the United States.

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And I think we were talking previously
that those are different cultures,

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even just within the United States.

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Absolutely.

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Could you talk a little bit,  about
this difference between North Carolina

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where you spent quite a few years and
that's actually where you and I met?

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So we've known each other
now for about 25 years.

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just as like full disclosure, I used to
sneak in Roger's office, so he was one of

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the top executives, which is now Fujifilm,
DIY Bio Technologies, and I would kind

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of sneak into his office and see what
publications he was had on his table.

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And so there were all these industry
publications and I was kind of

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sneaking around in his office and.

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One of the things I knew about Roger,
he was the most well-read executive I'd

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ever worked with up until that point.

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So that's just like a
little fun, fun fact.

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So can you talk about the difference
between North Carolina and California?

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Well, first of all, if  was
my first stalker, obviously.

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So,  that's an interesting
piece of information.

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actually, I'll, I'll

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Roger Lias: actually flip
the question a little bit.

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The bigger cultural change is
when I moved from the Boston

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area down to North Carolina.

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Now, this is a few

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years ago yet, but,  that
was quite a shock.

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obviously, you know,

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Roger Lias: the south is known for
the, you know, the politeness and

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everything, but it was much more real

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than I'd anticipated.

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and it, it comes down

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Roger Lias: to things, you know.

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Swearing in the office.

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So you have nobody
worried about it at all.

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In Boston, I came down here and
it was like, oh my goodness.

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You know, let's, let's tamp
that down a little bit and

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these things make a difference.

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It takes a while.

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My cynical English sense of
humor just didn't fly in north.

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When I moved from the UK to
the US I had to drop 80% of it.

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When I moved from Boston to North
Carolina, I had to drop most of

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the rest of it 'cause I would
just inadvertently offend people.

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and we don't, you know, we don't
think enough about these things in our

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everyday lives or in our business lives.

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you know, we're.

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The world is changing, right?

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It's, yeah, it is global now, and we're,
we're understanding these things more, but

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it's been a really interesting journey.

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Stephen M. Perry: Yeah, I think I moved
from Chicago to North Carolina and what

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I realized is I couldn't move as fast
as I was used to moving in Chicago.

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In Chicago, you like, if you
don't move fast enough, you

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get shot in the office, right?

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Yeah.

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And it's even, it all goes all
the way down to the grocery store.

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In North Carolina, I remember my
first experience buying groceries.

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The person was like grabbing the
item, looking at it, commenting on it,

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scanning it, and then moving it along.

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In Chicago, they just whip it by
the scanners as quickly as possible.

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Yeah.

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And you're, if you don't have your
payment ready in advance,  you

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know, you get, you get quite a few
nasty looks from the other patrons.

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and then North Carolina, everyone's
kind of taking their, their sweet time.

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But it doesn't necessarily
hamper the productivity.

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So I had to kind of like start
to embrace the culture,  in order

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to really get,  the, the maximum
performance out of my style.

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Let's go back to that California question.

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So if you're doing business
in, say, LA, San Diego, San

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Francisco versus, you
know,  here on the, on the

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Stephen M. Perry: East Coast, are there
any cultural sensitivities, even things

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like, do you, do you dress differently?

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Do you order something different
at the, at the restaurant?

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Roger Lias: Yeah, no,
it's, I mean, the dressing

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one is interesting.

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I think that's changed

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Roger Lias: a little bit now.

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When I, I was here on the East
coast, I used to spend a lot

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of time on the West coast.

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It was always my nightmare.

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'cause you have four, six
meetings in a day, you know?

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A long time since I've worn a tie.

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But you know, some of these meetings
would be, you know, jacket and and

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tie respect, or the next guys are in
flip flops and shores and it's real.

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Yeah, I mean, it's very real.

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We're

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in biotech, right?

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so what do you do?

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Roger Lias: You dress for the highest
common denomin nature, of course.

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And just.

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Loosen your shirt a little bit more.

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I think communication styles, it's,
it's very casual on the west coast.

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It is more casual than on the
East coast and we, we don't think

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about those, those differences.

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Stephen M. Perry: I'll, I'll add to that.

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So I'm in San Diego quite a
bit and I noticed the casual.

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Interaction.

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And what happens is you may not
understand the gravitas of the situation.

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So while the conversation is casual,
the business is just as intense.

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The meaning is still there,
it's the meaning's still there.

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And so that, that took an

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adjustment period for me.

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my hack by the way,

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Stephen M. Perry: is you
mentioned the button.

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So what I do is I just
drop a button when I, when

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I head to la.

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Yeah.

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and same, same for

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Stephen M. Perry: Miami, maybe Miami.

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I, I may drop two buttons.

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Roger Lias: Yeah, but it goes back
to the, you know, to some extent

243
00:09:07,305 --> 00:09:08,925
back to the Indian experience, right?

244
00:09:10,185 --> 00:09:14,240
If you go in with a, a California attitude
and you just say something casually.

245
00:09:14,865 --> 00:09:15,855
People don't take it that way.

246
00:09:15,855 --> 00:09:17,025
So they don't do anything about it.

247
00:09:17,025 --> 00:09:18,825
They don't think it's real and important.

248
00:09:18,825 --> 00:09:20,805
You've gotta pretty much
bang on the table and

249
00:09:20,805 --> 00:09:22,490
sometimes even yell Yep.

250
00:09:22,490 --> 00:09:24,175
to get things done.

251
00:09:24,225 --> 00:09:26,025
Roger Lias: And, but they don't
look at that as a bad thing that,

252
00:09:26,175 --> 00:09:26,955
you know, they're used to it.

253
00:09:27,045 --> 00:09:28,965
I mean, it, it's a, it's
a cultural difference.

254
00:09:28,965 --> 00:09:30,285
There's nothing right or wrong with it.

255
00:09:30,495 --> 00:09:33,375
If I get yelled at in the office
here, I'm like, oh my goodness.

256
00:09:33,375 --> 00:09:34,305
You know, it's the end of the world.

257
00:09:34,605 --> 00:09:35,085
They don't care.

258
00:09:35,085 --> 00:09:36,165
They get yelled at all day long.

259
00:09:36,165 --> 00:09:36,285
Yeah.

260
00:09:36,435 --> 00:09:37,155
And I say that

261
00:09:37,855 --> 00:09:38,995
with great respect.

262
00:09:38,995 --> 00:09:40,515
you know, it's, it's

263
00:09:40,515 --> 00:09:41,985
Roger Lias: just a different
way of doing things.

264
00:09:41,985 --> 00:09:42,825
It's the way you.

265
00:09:43,199 --> 00:09:44,069
You know, you go to work

266
00:09:44,069 --> 00:09:45,660
Stephen M. Perry: every
day and what you expect.

267
00:09:46,110 --> 00:09:47,040
My college roommate was

268
00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,860
from,  New York,  long
Island specifically,

269
00:09:49,860 --> 00:09:54,449
Stephen M. Perry: and when I came back
from my first stint at college to spend

270
00:09:54,449 --> 00:09:59,370
time at home again, I had picked up a new
word and it was the New York, the, but it

271
00:09:59,370 --> 00:10:03,360
starts with the letter F. And so I just
started throwing that around and that was,

272
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,340
you know, you thought Chicago could handle
it and it was, it was not well received.

273
00:10:08,430 --> 00:10:08,490
Yeah.

274
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,910
Anytime I'm up in New York,
sometimes I come back with, um.

275
00:10:12,285 --> 00:10:15,315
You know that back in my vocabulary
and I have to kind of eliminate

276
00:10:15,315 --> 00:10:17,565
it from the vocabulary when I
get back here to North Carolina.

277
00:10:17,565 --> 00:10:17,625
Yeah.

278
00:10:18,270 --> 00:10:19,350
Roger Lias: Another interesting one.

279
00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:22,890
And yeah, we talk about Europe as well,
and, and you mentioned that we were first

280
00:10:22,890 --> 00:10:25,620
worked together at,  cent basically in the

281
00:10:25,620 --> 00:10:26,220
Roger Lias: early days.

282
00:10:26,220 --> 00:10:28,950
They've, they've dropped the cent
from the Fujifilm name now, so it's

283
00:10:28,950 --> 00:10:30,187
Fujifilm Bio Technologies.

284
00:10:30,187 --> 00:10:32,250
but I, when we were,

285
00:10:32,250 --> 00:10:32,340
Roger Lias: that

286
00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:34,950
Stephen M. Perry: Cent logo
just got smaller and smaller and

287
00:10:34,950 --> 00:10:36,060
now you're telling me it's just

288
00:10:36,060 --> 00:10:36,450
Roger Lias: gone.

289
00:10:36,450 --> 00:10:36,720
Correct.

290
00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:37,140
It's gone.

291
00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:37,440
Okay.

292
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:38,340
It's completely gone.

293
00:10:38,670 --> 00:10:41,790
Then I remember we were acquired
by Cent, part of Axon, Nobel

294
00:10:41,820 --> 00:10:45,270
big European, Dutch,  organization, and by

295
00:10:45,270 --> 00:10:46,285
Roger Lias: pure chance I was on a flight.

296
00:10:46,615 --> 00:10:49,345
To the Netherlands and I was next
to a guy from Royal Dutch Shell

297
00:10:49,465 --> 00:10:52,615
and we were just talking about,
you know, life and and business.

298
00:10:53,005 --> 00:10:55,885
And we, but we started talking about,
you know, business styles and I

299
00:10:55,885 --> 00:10:58,555
was a little frustrated 'cause we
were trying to do some licensing

300
00:10:58,555 --> 00:11:01,585
deals and it was taking forever to
get sort of approvals and go ahead.

301
00:11:01,585 --> 00:11:02,725
And I was losing the deals.

302
00:11:02,725 --> 00:11:04,285
Other people stepped in and did them.

303
00:11:04,885 --> 00:11:07,495
And the gentleman from Royal Dutch
Shell, Dutch gentleman said, well,

304
00:11:07,495 --> 00:11:08,965
that's the difference in the us.

305
00:11:08,965 --> 00:11:12,355
If you're going from A to B in a
business journey, you start the

306
00:11:12,355 --> 00:11:14,545
journey and you know you have momentum.

307
00:11:14,545 --> 00:11:15,445
And if you take the org.

308
00:11:15,835 --> 00:11:16,585
Wrong turn.

309
00:11:16,705 --> 00:11:18,385
You know, you correct it and you're fine.

310
00:11:18,955 --> 00:11:21,955
Whereas if you're in the Netherlands,
you have to know exactly which turns

311
00:11:21,955 --> 00:11:24,955
you're taking and when you're taking
them, then how you're gonna get from A

312
00:11:24,955 --> 00:11:28,735
to B. And very often, by the time you
then start the journey, it's obsolete.

313
00:11:28,735 --> 00:11:30,050
You don't need to make
the journey anymore.

314
00:11:30,050 --> 00:11:30,250
Yeah.

315
00:11:30,250 --> 00:11:32,725
And it's, you know, these ways, cultural

316
00:11:32,725 --> 00:11:34,330
ways of doing things.

317
00:11:34,330 --> 00:11:35,935
so it's, the whole

318
00:11:35,935 --> 00:11:36,955
Roger Lias: thing fascinates me.

319
00:11:37,395 --> 00:11:37,965
Greatly.

320
00:11:38,025 --> 00:11:40,485
I mean, South Korea is another
really fascinating place.

321
00:11:40,485 --> 00:11:43,485
The culture is, I love South
Korea, but the culture is very

322
00:11:43,485 --> 00:11:44,595
different, the business culture.

323
00:11:44,985 --> 00:11:45,165
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.

324
00:11:45,165 --> 00:11:49,245
And I, I'm a big student of the
difference between east versus west.

325
00:11:49,725 --> 00:11:52,185
So if you study ancient Indian

326
00:11:52,185 --> 00:11:55,065
philosophy, which goes
back,  6,000 years, there's

327
00:11:55,065 --> 00:11:55,455
Stephen M. Perry: also.

328
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,080
Ancient Chinese philosophy.

329
00:11:58,410 --> 00:12:01,890
There's some really interesting things
and what you notice, it's markedly

330
00:12:01,890 --> 00:12:03,510
different from the from the west.

331
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,080
And if you come into the Kaman
headquarters here and go into our

332
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:10,830
boardroom, Roger, you'll notice
this massive Chinese wind gong.

333
00:12:11,190 --> 00:12:13,290
It's the the biggest
one that we could buy.

334
00:12:13,620 --> 00:12:15,840
I caught quite a bit of
flack upgrading that on

335
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,435
our 20th anniversary.

336
00:12:17,435 --> 00:12:20,095
but it's a stark reminder

337
00:12:20,145 --> 00:12:22,875
Stephen M. Perry: that the, that the
east is different from the west and

338
00:12:22,875 --> 00:12:27,015
the east has some things that the
west doesn't have, and one of them is

339
00:12:27,045 --> 00:12:29,594
the East has this long-term outlook.

340
00:12:29,985 --> 00:12:30,584
So if you go

341
00:12:30,584 --> 00:12:34,600
into the Japanese,  boardroom in Japan.

342
00:12:34,650 --> 00:12:38,310
Stephen M. Perry: You'll notice the, you
know, the, the, the, the, the age of the

343
00:12:38,310 --> 00:12:39,904
participants really matters.

344
00:12:39,904 --> 00:12:42,030
so age equals wisdom,

345
00:12:42,030 --> 00:12:45,150
Stephen M. Perry: wisdom equals
respect, and everyone kind of

346
00:12:45,150 --> 00:12:46,950
follows into that hierarchy.

347
00:12:47,700 --> 00:12:50,490
And what you'll notice is
in that Japanese boardroom,

348
00:12:50,490 --> 00:12:54,056
they build decisions,
usually by consensus.

349
00:12:54,056 --> 00:12:55,840
usually with detailed

350
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,840
Stephen M. Perry: plans, but
based on 100 year outcomes.

351
00:12:59,410 --> 00:13:01,900
And here in the United States
it's like, what am I gonna do

352
00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:03,070
in the next a hundred days,

353
00:13:03,350 --> 00:13:04,280
a hundred minutes?

354
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:05,830
and I think some of

355
00:13:05,830 --> 00:13:06,700
Stephen M. Perry: that's dictated

356
00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:09,850
by publicly traded,  companies that have

357
00:13:09,850 --> 00:13:12,430
Stephen M. Perry: to kind of report
their earnings every quarter.

358
00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,460
And so it's like, what are, what
did you do for me this quarter?

359
00:13:15,460 --> 00:13:17,020
What are you gonna do for me next quarter?

360
00:13:17,564 --> 00:13:20,295
And the Chinese take it up a whole level.

361
00:13:20,805 --> 00:13:23,564
Chinese, if you look back at
their whole cultural history,

362
00:13:23,564 --> 00:13:27,074
they make decisions based on the
impact to the seventh generation.

363
00:13:27,675 --> 00:13:30,584
That's about 250 years.

364
00:13:30,854 --> 00:13:33,194
So it's not a quarter
or like three months.

365
00:13:33,435 --> 00:13:35,235
It's a quarter of a millennia.

366
00:13:35,834 --> 00:13:41,175
And so that idea of this long-term
outlook, and I think also a long memory.

367
00:13:41,925 --> 00:13:43,425
Brings very stark contrast.

368
00:13:43,425 --> 00:13:47,715
So I think part of the value
equation at OX is, hey, we want

369
00:13:47,715 --> 00:13:49,155
to be a little bit different.

370
00:13:49,155 --> 00:13:51,825
We want to embrace these Eastern ideas.

371
00:13:52,095 --> 00:13:56,265
And one of them is let's
create lasting long-term value.

372
00:13:56,265 --> 00:13:59,385
And the way we're gonna do that
is think long-term and make

373
00:13:59,385 --> 00:14:01,335
decisions based on impact.

374
00:14:01,822 --> 00:14:03,285
I think there's some

375
00:14:03,285 --> 00:14:03,675
Stephen M. Perry: really

376
00:14:03,945 --> 00:14:05,715
Roger Lias: good examples
directly in our industry.

377
00:14:05,715 --> 00:14:07,095
And again, I'll go back to South Korea.

378
00:14:07,875 --> 00:14:12,194
You know, capital investment, it takes
a long time to, to build and validate

379
00:14:12,194 --> 00:14:15,135
and, you know, use infrastructure,
large scale infrastructure for

380
00:14:15,135 --> 00:14:18,435
manufacturing, biologics and,
and advanced therapies as well.

381
00:14:18,955 --> 00:14:20,280
So it is very interesting.

382
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,460
If you look at South Korea, you have
companies like Samsung and Latte and

383
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,170
you know, prestige biologics and things.

384
00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:29,940
They are prepared to invest vast sums
of money in extremely large scale

385
00:14:29,940 --> 00:14:33,450
infrastructure with no expectation
of a return for years to come.

386
00:14:33,510 --> 00:14:35,460
But it's forced society right now.

387
00:14:35,460 --> 00:14:37,230
I question 'em a lot about it.

388
00:14:37,470 --> 00:14:39,810
I know some facilities that
are sitting quite idle there

389
00:14:39,810 --> 00:14:41,550
right now, and it's not ideal.

390
00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:44,200
But they're not fretting
too much about it.

391
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,120
We'd be losing our, our minds over it.

392
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:46,300
Yeah.

393
00:14:46,345 --> 00:14:46,545
Yeah.

394
00:14:46,690 --> 00:14:49,510
And I would say in, interestingly,
in India it's even more different.

395
00:14:49,510 --> 00:14:54,190
They, it's much more, you know, I need
a return, you know, in 10 minutes.

396
00:14:54,610 --> 00:14:56,710
So they're very careful with allocating.

397
00:14:56,770 --> 00:15:00,040
They'll still do the spend, but it
takes a long time to get it done.

398
00:15:00,340 --> 00:15:02,800
And all of these things
factor into your everyday.

399
00:15:03,115 --> 00:15:05,725
Business life as well, and
probably even your personal life.

400
00:15:05,725 --> 00:15:07,194
They, it's a different mindset.

401
00:15:07,375 --> 00:15:09,444
Stephen M. Perry: It's very, yeah, it's
great when you're visiting around the

402
00:15:09,444 --> 00:15:14,755
world and how the level of patience
for the big returns that may not even

403
00:15:14,755 --> 00:15:18,505
be on a 10 year, 10 year horizon,
maybe beyond a 10 year horizon.

404
00:15:18,805 --> 00:15:22,464
And I think if you just talk to most
American business people, if you try

405
00:15:22,464 --> 00:15:27,204
to have a discussion beyond 10 years,
people look at you cross-eyed and

406
00:15:27,204 --> 00:15:28,735
they call you a futurist and some

407
00:15:28,735 --> 00:15:29,816
other bad words.

408
00:15:29,816 --> 00:15:31,620
And,  it, it's just hard

409
00:15:31,620 --> 00:15:32,370
Stephen M. Perry: to have a discussion.

410
00:15:32,490 --> 00:15:33,900
It's hard to hold anybody's attention.

411
00:15:34,110 --> 00:15:36,030
Could you talk about leadership style?

412
00:15:36,030 --> 00:15:37,350
So you've been a leader at a lot

413
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:39,720
of these different,
multicultural multinational

414
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,870
Stephen M. Perry: companies or
companies that are just based in these

415
00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:44,456
countries around the world.

416
00:15:44,456 --> 00:15:46,440
how, how have you adapted

417
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:47,220
Stephen M. Perry: your leadership style?

418
00:15:47,220 --> 00:15:48,690
What leadership styles have you seen?

419
00:15:48,690 --> 00:15:51,660
What works in, in this
global economy that we have?

420
00:15:52,215 --> 00:15:55,545
Roger Lias: Yeah, I, I think
I fairly quickly, I, I'm, you

421
00:15:55,545 --> 00:15:58,575
know, I've got a fairly open
collegiate management style, right?

422
00:15:58,575 --> 00:16:01,185
We, we develop these incredibly
complex products you need.

423
00:16:02,085 --> 00:16:03,255
A lot of people involved.

424
00:16:03,285 --> 00:16:04,635
We all need to be on the same page.

425
00:16:04,635 --> 00:16:09,075
We need to agree with one another broadly
to get things done, is my opinion.

426
00:16:09,675 --> 00:16:09,795
I

427
00:16:09,795 --> 00:16:14,335
learned fairly quickly,
especially in Asia,

428
00:16:14,385 --> 00:16:15,855
Roger Lias: you know, Europe's
a bit different again, but

429
00:16:15,855 --> 00:16:17,355
we use Asia as the example.

430
00:16:17,775 --> 00:16:19,995
You're not gonna change people's culture.

431
00:16:20,175 --> 00:16:22,575
I mean, you're not gonna, it's very
difficult to change your business

432
00:16:22,575 --> 00:16:27,225
culture, let alone obviously one, one Brit
American in, in India's not gonna change.

433
00:16:27,435 --> 00:16:28,790
7,000 years of history.

434
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:30,485
so you have to work

435
00:16:30,485 --> 00:16:31,204
Roger Lias: within the system.

436
00:16:31,204 --> 00:16:31,985
You have to adapt.

437
00:16:32,015 --> 00:16:32,465
I think you have to

438
00:16:32,465 --> 00:16:33,705
be very open-minded.

439
00:16:33,705 --> 00:16:36,185
and part of it is working

440
00:16:36,185 --> 00:16:37,610
Roger Lias: out why things aren't.

441
00:16:38,610 --> 00:16:41,910
Progressing or why you're not getting
the traction you need, or whatever it is.

442
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:45,510
And very often it is down to
these hierarchical structures.

443
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,160
So in Korea for instance, I found it
actually, once you've sort of figured that

444
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,980
out, there's things that come into play,
the language barrier and things, right?

445
00:16:52,980 --> 00:16:55,770
In India, everybody speaks English
pretty much, or certainly in your

446
00:16:55,770 --> 00:16:58,380
work life in Korea, that's not
the case of senior management.

447
00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:02,510
Good English, but you can't communicate
with people further down directly anyway.

448
00:17:03,230 --> 00:17:06,500
So in Korea, I found, as you
said, it's same as Japan.

449
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:10,250
You know, it's a culture based on
respect and you know, longevity

450
00:17:10,250 --> 00:17:12,535
to a certain extent.

451
00:17:12,535 --> 00:17:14,250
so working through

452
00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:17,630
Roger Lias: the existing management,
Korean management in Korea, if I need

453
00:17:17,630 --> 00:17:20,930
to get something done, I can generally
get it done, but there's no point in me

454
00:17:20,990 --> 00:17:22,580
yelling and screaming and asking for it.

455
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,040
I have to talk to someone else to
get someone else to yell and scream

456
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,540
and ask for it, and it works.

457
00:17:28,245 --> 00:17:29,055
Is a little different.

458
00:17:29,055 --> 00:17:32,655
And again, I, I gotta be a little careful
because there's a big difference between

459
00:17:32,655 --> 00:17:36,645
a a, an Indian multinational, which,
you know, they, they're multinationals,

460
00:17:36,645 --> 00:17:41,145
they operate not exactly the same way,
but somewhat, you know, parallel with

461
00:17:41,145 --> 00:17:42,270
the way a multinational would, would.

462
00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:48,629
Operate anywhere, but these
smaller companies, my opinion

463
00:17:48,659 --> 00:17:52,889
really, or my learning is you can't
affect change not that easily.

464
00:17:52,980 --> 00:17:57,209
You have to go to the top man to
get anything done and, and it's

465
00:17:57,209 --> 00:18:02,294
this people, it's more of a. And
I'm very cautious about saying this.

466
00:18:02,324 --> 00:18:03,885
'cause the work outputs are fantastic.

467
00:18:03,885 --> 00:18:07,695
The people are great, the science
is great, the people work hard, but

468
00:18:07,695 --> 00:18:12,014
it's more of a, I equate it to be
perhaps of being in the UK in the

469
00:18:12,014 --> 00:18:14,175
1950s, it's go to work nine to five.

470
00:18:14,175 --> 00:18:15,074
And that's not literary.

471
00:18:15,074 --> 00:18:15,254
True.

472
00:18:15,254 --> 00:18:18,495
But go to work, do your hours, you
have a tea break at three o'clock.

473
00:18:19,544 --> 00:18:22,514
People aren't as vested in the outcome of

474
00:18:22,514 --> 00:18:23,489
the business.

475
00:18:23,489 --> 00:18:23,977
Yeah.

476
00:18:23,977 --> 00:18:25,439
and therefore, you

477
00:18:25,439 --> 00:18:25,719
Roger Lias: know, they don't.

478
00:18:26,429 --> 00:18:30,600
Take on as much responsibility or, or
as take it on as easily and as readily.

479
00:18:30,810 --> 00:18:33,450
They have to be told what to do
once they're told what to do.

480
00:18:33,540 --> 00:18:34,260
Fantastic.

481
00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:34,350
Yeah.

482
00:18:34,350 --> 00:18:38,010
I mean, really amazing science and
outcomes and everything else, and it's

483
00:18:38,010 --> 00:18:42,389
not that the people aren't capable of,
you know, thinking and doing these things,

484
00:18:42,389 --> 00:18:44,040
it's just not the way things are done.

485
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,800
You wait to be told to do
something by your manager or your

486
00:18:46,860 --> 00:18:48,570
manager's manager, or, you know,

487
00:18:48,639 --> 00:18:50,978
ultimately in some of these.

488
00:18:50,978 --> 00:18:52,850
sort of smaller private

489
00:18:52,850 --> 00:18:54,739
Roger Lias: companies is,
is the boss man, the guy who

490
00:18:54,739 --> 00:18:55,755
invested the money.

491
00:18:55,755 --> 00:18:57,110
and it doesn't matter

492
00:18:57,110 --> 00:18:59,419
Roger Lias: who you are, and
it doesn't matter if you're an

493
00:18:59,419 --> 00:19:02,745
English guy who's, you know, run a
publicly traded company in the us.

494
00:19:03,735 --> 00:19:04,935
You, you're not gonna change that.

495
00:19:04,935 --> 00:19:05,655
Not easily.

496
00:19:05,805 --> 00:19:07,185
You have to work through it and around it.

497
00:19:07,185 --> 00:19:08,205
So you, and learn from it.

498
00:19:08,264 --> 00:19:08,475
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.

499
00:19:08,475 --> 00:19:12,735
And you used the word like adapt, like you
need to adapt to the culture, obviously.

500
00:19:12,735 --> 00:19:13,514
Respect it.

501
00:19:13,514 --> 00:19:14,115
Learn it.

502
00:19:14,415 --> 00:19:17,205
What are some of the things
that you did to, to adapt?

503
00:19:17,534 --> 00:19:20,085
Did you learn a couple
phrases in the local language?

504
00:19:20,085 --> 00:19:21,735
Did you dress a little bit differently?

505
00:19:22,034 --> 00:19:26,805
Did you order from, from their
traditional, you know, menu versus

506
00:19:26,805 --> 00:19:28,065
like, you know, looking for the chicken

507
00:19:28,065 --> 00:19:28,562
tenders?

508
00:19:28,562 --> 00:19:29,060
Roger.

509
00:19:29,060 --> 00:19:31,050
could you just talk

510
00:19:31,050 --> 00:19:33,060
Stephen M. Perry: about some of
that adaptation that you've done

511
00:19:33,060 --> 00:19:34,920
at, at a very practical level?

512
00:19:35,070 --> 00:19:35,310
Roger Lias: Yeah.

513
00:19:35,310 --> 00:19:35,670
I'm not a

514
00:19:35,670 --> 00:19:38,970
chicken tenders guy, so,  I
love Indian and Korean

515
00:19:38,970 --> 00:19:40,860
Roger Lias: food and everything
else, so, but that, it counts.

516
00:19:40,890 --> 00:19:41,130
I'm just,

517
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:41,520
Stephen M. Perry: yeah.

518
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,160
And I was just saying like a
stereotypical American diet rather.

519
00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:44,370
Yeah.

520
00:19:44,370 --> 00:19:44,460
What

521
00:19:44,460 --> 00:19:46,650
Roger Lias: you do, you go out
and get to know the people, so

522
00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:49,620
embrace the culture, and I'm not
talking about work culture now.

523
00:19:49,620 --> 00:19:49,855
I'm talking about.

524
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:53,210
Get out, go to the restaurants,
go to the sporting fixtures, the

525
00:19:53,210 --> 00:19:56,720
cricket matches, get to know the
people a bit, and they appreciate it.

526
00:19:56,750 --> 00:19:58,310
They absolutely appreciate it.

527
00:19:58,520 --> 00:19:59,090
So I think that

528
00:19:59,090 --> 00:20:01,117
does go a long way.

529
00:20:01,117 --> 00:20:02,740
you know, more immediately

530
00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:03,590
Roger Lias: at work.

531
00:20:03,740 --> 00:20:07,730
I think one of the things that I
found worked very well, because

532
00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:11,120
people weren't used to it, but
people over the world, all over the

533
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:12,710
world have the same drivers, right?

534
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:15,830
I used to share a lot
more information than.

535
00:20:16,605 --> 00:20:17,325
Within reason.

536
00:20:17,355 --> 00:20:21,315
Obviously there's stuff you can't share,
but I was happy enough to go in and, and

537
00:20:21,315 --> 00:20:24,645
talk a little bit about how we're doing
and you know, what our problems are and

538
00:20:24,735 --> 00:20:26,115
you know, the good stuff, the bad stuff.

539
00:20:26,534 --> 00:20:29,024
And I think in these hierarchical
structures, a lot of people

540
00:20:29,024 --> 00:20:32,264
further down the organization
just never hear that stuff.

541
00:20:32,445 --> 00:20:36,975
So I found that if I was prepared to open
up a little bit about what's going on,

542
00:20:37,004 --> 00:20:39,165
again, within reason, people responded.

543
00:20:40,020 --> 00:20:43,950
Amazingly, you know, a guy in Hyderabad
or you know, Osan, South Korea or

544
00:20:43,950 --> 00:20:47,460
wherever it is, is no different than
a guy in San Francisco or Boston.

545
00:20:47,879 --> 00:20:51,270
They, they feel empowered when they
have information and they, they, you

546
00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:55,379
know, so these people are, are capable
without doubt, more than capable

547
00:20:55,379 --> 00:20:56,879
of taking on some of this stuff.

548
00:20:56,879 --> 00:20:59,520
It's just that the system
doesn't quite allow them to.

549
00:20:59,970 --> 00:21:03,030
So I, I did find that sharing
information again within reason.

550
00:21:03,295 --> 00:21:06,295
Helps now that, I mean that helped
you know, over here as well.

551
00:21:06,295 --> 00:21:09,415
I was Cee o of a publicly traded
company, used to frustrate

552
00:21:09,415 --> 00:21:10,675
the living heck outta me.

553
00:21:10,915 --> 00:21:14,605
That we were blacked out so much of the
time that couldn't share information.

554
00:21:14,605 --> 00:21:16,885
And you know, in this case we're
talking about financial information.

555
00:21:17,155 --> 00:21:20,245
I want my guys to understand
the good and the bad.

556
00:21:20,245 --> 00:21:20,485
Right.

557
00:21:20,545 --> 00:21:23,305
And, you know, 'cause it helps
then, you know, if we gotta make

558
00:21:23,305 --> 00:21:24,775
some difficult decisions, well.

559
00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:26,379
That's the reason, right?

560
00:21:26,379 --> 00:21:29,469
The market is this, or the financials
are this, and we have to run a business.

561
00:21:29,469 --> 00:21:33,100
We have to remain solvent and, you
know, keep growing everything else.

562
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,229
But when you can't share that perhaps,
or a culture does not share that,

563
00:21:38,229 --> 00:21:41,530
or in a publicly traded company, you
can't share that, I think it becomes

564
00:21:41,530 --> 00:21:45,010
a lot more difficult to, to motivate
people and, and keep them moving.

565
00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:48,320
Stephen M. Perry: I think you, you
get, I mean, so at Comox we, one

566
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,110
of the promises that we have for
our employees is that we're not

567
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:53,179
gonna put people in a box, right?

568
00:21:53,179 --> 00:21:57,830
So yeah, we have swim lanes, but you
can kind of go underneath the, the, the

569
00:21:57,830 --> 00:21:59,600
little, the little swim lane barrier.

570
00:21:59,629 --> 00:21:59,960
Right.

571
00:22:00,740 --> 00:22:07,879
And I think in order to get people
to work for the greater good of,

572
00:22:08,179 --> 00:22:11,090
well, you know, these are modern
medicine development programs.

573
00:22:11,090 --> 00:22:12,710
You're trying to commercialize
the medicine, you're trying to

574
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:14,210
get the product to the patient.

575
00:22:15,209 --> 00:22:17,459
The only way to empower
them is with knowledge.

576
00:22:17,939 --> 00:22:21,090
And then what I tend to do is I probably

577
00:22:21,090 --> 00:22:24,090
overshare to the extent,
where it's like, okay,

578
00:22:24,090 --> 00:22:27,149
Stephen M. Perry: maybe, maybe
that's gonna create fear because they

579
00:22:27,149 --> 00:22:28,530
have this additional information.

580
00:22:28,530 --> 00:22:32,760
So is that ever backfired
on you culturally or do you

581
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,139
create another set of problems?

582
00:22:34,139 --> 00:22:35,429
Like, for my experiences.

583
00:22:35,790 --> 00:22:39,480
I've unintentionally created fear
because I've shared kind of the nitty

584
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,379
gritty of a, a particular program
or how the company's doing, and it

585
00:22:43,379 --> 00:22:45,180
kind of like, it kind of backfires.

586
00:22:45,330 --> 00:22:49,620
And I, I still err on the side of sharing
additional information because I think

587
00:22:49,620 --> 00:22:53,879
ultimately people want to be autonomous
and they want to perform and they

588
00:22:53,879 --> 00:22:55,889
want to be part of something amazing.

589
00:22:55,889 --> 00:22:59,220
And the only way to be a part of
something amazing is to have success.

590
00:22:59,220 --> 00:23:01,410
And success in our business
mean means getting these

591
00:23:01,410 --> 00:23:02,670
products over the finish line.

592
00:23:03,044 --> 00:23:04,935
Roger Lias: Yeah, I, I
don't think it's relevant.

593
00:23:04,995 --> 00:23:06,735
There might be occasions
where it's backfired.

594
00:23:06,735 --> 00:23:08,985
I think a lot of it comes down
to being somewhat sensible.

595
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:10,740
About what you're sharing, right.

596
00:23:10,740 --> 00:23:12,990
You can't, not all the
dirty underwear needs to

597
00:23:12,990 --> 00:23:14,230
be on display.

598
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:14,643
Yeah.

599
00:23:14,643 --> 00:23:16,710
so I don't think so.

600
00:23:16,710 --> 00:23:20,670
Roger Lias: I think the positives just
vastly outweigh the negatives or potential

601
00:23:20,670 --> 00:23:21,055
negatives.

602
00:23:21,055 --> 00:23:23,750
And again, it's,  it's the, you know,

603
00:23:23,790 --> 00:23:25,500
Roger Lias: I'd rather
people ask forgiveness than

604
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:26,790
permission in a lot of ways.

605
00:23:26,790 --> 00:23:27,840
We've gotta keep moving forward.

606
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,920
We've gotta have moment
we've gotta go there.

607
00:23:29,970 --> 00:23:32,970
Roger Lias: And I think the vast
majority of people doesn't matter if you

608
00:23:32,970 --> 00:23:35,640
are the forklift truck driver or the.

609
00:23:36,044 --> 00:23:39,735
You know, executive VP of something,
it doesn't matter if you're India and

610
00:23:39,735 --> 00:23:44,145
China and you know, North Carolina or
California, people respond to that.

611
00:23:44,145 --> 00:23:45,105
I firmly believe that.

612
00:23:45,105 --> 00:23:49,544
That's a, that's a human nature and
not all people are, because they're

613
00:23:49,544 --> 00:23:54,014
not used to it, are capable of quickly
embracing it and, and processing it,

614
00:23:54,014 --> 00:23:55,875
using that knowledge and, you know, uh.

615
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:58,200
Wisely.

616
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,200
I think that's perhaps a bit of more
of a learned experience and you, I

617
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,290
think you learn it much more quickly
over here in the States and probably

618
00:24:04,290 --> 00:24:06,300
in Europe than you do in parts of Asia.

619
00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:07,170
I think it's unfortunate.

620
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,440
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah, and I think, I
think sharing that information about,

621
00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:12,540
about whatever the you're sharing, right?

622
00:24:13,350 --> 00:24:14,610
I think it helps build trust.

623
00:24:14,970 --> 00:24:18,120
I think the next topic, Roger,
is let's talk about trust.

624
00:24:18,150 --> 00:24:21,750
Let's talk about accountability and
how that plays out around the globe.

625
00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:22,410
Any.

626
00:24:23,115 --> 00:24:26,685
Any observations on, on those
subjects of trust and accountability?

627
00:24:27,945 --> 00:24:29,595
Roger Lias: I think you've
gotta walk the walk, right?

628
00:24:29,655 --> 00:24:33,045
I mean, it's, you can't be, people
see through you pretty quickly if

629
00:24:33,045 --> 00:24:36,075
you're not, you know, if you're
pulling the wall over their eyes or

630
00:24:36,075 --> 00:24:37,815
you're not being trustworthy yourself.

631
00:24:38,715 --> 00:24:43,635
I think there's more blind trust
in these hierarchical structures.

632
00:24:43,815 --> 00:24:44,385
Um.

633
00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:46,620
'cause what, what other
choice do you have?

634
00:24:46,620 --> 00:24:46,890
Really?

635
00:24:46,890 --> 00:24:49,770
I mean, it's like, okay, but we've
gotta assume our management or

636
00:24:50,010 --> 00:24:53,100
executives or whoever is know what
they're doing and we'll, we'll follow.

637
00:24:53,130 --> 00:24:54,870
'cause that is the model.

638
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:56,850
can I, can I share

639
00:24:56,850 --> 00:24:57,810
Stephen M. Perry: one of my experiences?

640
00:24:57,870 --> 00:24:58,170
Of course.

641
00:24:58,170 --> 00:24:58,260
And

642
00:24:58,260 --> 00:25:02,816
so I've worked in,  I worked in
Stuttgart, Germany for a year.

643
00:25:02,816 --> 00:25:04,715
I, I'm a citizen of

644
00:25:04,715 --> 00:25:07,080
Stephen M. Perry: the, the country
Luxembourg with, with my family.

645
00:25:07,875 --> 00:25:11,685
And I don't know, I, I'm from
Chicago and I live in North Carolina.

646
00:25:11,685 --> 00:25:18,405
I, I, I kinda have that Midwest upbringing
pretty warm, and I think I've embraced,

647
00:25:18,795 --> 00:25:22,965
just growing up in the United States,
I've embraced the, you can be my friend,

648
00:25:23,535 --> 00:25:28,875
best friend in about five minutes, and
I can embrace you and then we can just

649
00:25:28,875 --> 00:25:32,775
be the best friends ever, either in, in
the personal life or in the work life.

650
00:25:33,060 --> 00:25:38,280
And then if there's a betrayal or
there's a problem, then you know,

651
00:25:38,340 --> 00:25:43,139
we, we divorce, we, we, we break that
relationship or we set, we set boundaries.

652
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,580
And what I noticed when I went over to
Europe and tried to become a best friend

653
00:25:47,580 --> 00:25:49,169
from someone right outta the gate, not

654
00:25:49,169 --> 00:25:49,620
Roger Lias: gonna happen.

655
00:25:49,740 --> 00:25:51,750
Stephen M. Perry: It was
massive cold shoulder.

656
00:25:52,110 --> 00:25:56,730
And what I realized was it takes
years to develop a friendship.

657
00:25:57,030 --> 00:25:59,879
And then once that
friendship is solidified.

658
00:26:00,659 --> 00:26:02,250
Nothing breaks the bond.

659
00:26:02,730 --> 00:26:06,389
So could you talk a little bit about,
about that, you know, specifically

660
00:26:06,389 --> 00:26:08,639
between the US and Europe on how

661
00:26:08,639 --> 00:26:12,920
we're embracing people,
either, you know, in,

662
00:26:12,930 --> 00:26:14,639
Stephen M. Perry: preferably
in the workplace, but even,

663
00:26:14,639 --> 00:26:15,870
even in the social settings?

664
00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:17,250
Roger Lias: Yeah, I mean,
I think you're spot on.

665
00:26:17,250 --> 00:26:18,540
Obviously I grew up in the uk.

666
00:26:18,540 --> 00:26:19,169
I do a lot

667
00:26:19,169 --> 00:26:21,363
of work even now in,  in Europe.

668
00:26:21,363 --> 00:26:21,990
And you

669
00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:25,230
Roger Lias: know, with shout out to my
friends, the Swedes and the Nordics I'm

670
00:26:25,230 --> 00:26:26,460
doing a lot of work with at the moment.

671
00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:27,825
They're the ultimate in, you know.

672
00:26:28,530 --> 00:26:30,030
Ice princess, if you like,

673
00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:31,485
or whatever it is.

674
00:26:31,485 --> 00:26:32,940
but once you, once

675
00:26:32,940 --> 00:26:34,950
Roger Lias: you are, once you break
through one of them, once you break

676
00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:35,730
through, you're there forever.

677
00:26:35,730 --> 00:26:36,000
Yeah.

678
00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:38,130
So I think it's an
interesting observation.

679
00:26:38,130 --> 00:26:43,770
I mean, it's, you know, Europeans
stereo stereotypical of view of the US

680
00:26:43,770 --> 00:26:48,180
citizenship is, you know, have a nice day
and how are you, no one is ever gonna tell

681
00:26:48,180 --> 00:26:49,920
you, oh God, it's terrible, I'm miserable.

682
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,270
It's, you know, oh, everything's fine.

683
00:26:51,270 --> 00:26:51,450
Right?

684
00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:54,090
It's that, is that more culture, right?

685
00:26:54,090 --> 00:26:55,560
It's that cultural stuff.

686
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:56,100
So, uh.

687
00:26:56,790 --> 00:26:57,930
Yeah, I, I think,

688
00:26:58,530 --> 00:27:01,890
Stephen M. Perry: yeah, the other, so
does that, so does the US then move

689
00:27:01,890 --> 00:27:05,190
business faster because people are
just embracing each other as business

690
00:27:05,190 --> 00:27:09,900
partners and just moving, like, like going
from zero to a hundred versus Europe,

691
00:27:09,900 --> 00:27:11,430
that things are much more measured.

692
00:27:11,460 --> 00:27:12,960
Like does that slow down?

693
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:15,610
The business process and
how do you work around that?

694
00:27:15,670 --> 00:27:17,800
I think it, or is it just
like part of the fraud bleed

695
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,930
Roger Lias: does, although of
course a lot of other things come

696
00:27:19,930 --> 00:27:21,160
into play, capital deployment

697
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:21,930
and everything else.

698
00:27:22,186 --> 00:27:23,470
I, I think of it in

699
00:27:23,470 --> 00:27:24,490
Roger Lias: terms of momentum.

700
00:27:24,550 --> 00:27:27,430
The US maintains momentum right by.

701
00:27:27,824 --> 00:27:30,764
Maybe it's by backslapping
and going to the bar together.

702
00:27:31,125 --> 00:27:32,834
There's lots of other
things in play as well.

703
00:27:33,074 --> 00:27:36,945
But my, I've been here a long time
now, so sometimes it's, you know, when

704
00:27:36,945 --> 00:27:40,544
I think of European business practice
sometimes I'm thinking of 30 years

705
00:27:40,544 --> 00:27:44,804
ago and things have changed over there
as well, but to me it's about America

706
00:27:44,804 --> 00:27:47,054
has that can do attitude, right?

707
00:27:47,054 --> 00:27:47,834
Still does.

708
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,965
Always has through its,
you know, foundation.

709
00:27:50,625 --> 00:27:55,844
And that culture I think definitely
is a, an an advantage when.

710
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,090
Developing a biologic, for
instance, let's get it done.

711
00:28:00,090 --> 00:28:03,270
It's a can-do at if you'd rather
than, oh, that's gonna be a problem

712
00:28:03,270 --> 00:28:04,320
and that's gonna be a problem.

713
00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:04,770
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.

714
00:28:04,830 --> 00:28:07,920
And what I noticed is it's, there's
a cockiness and even con like

715
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,280
confidence and cockiness in the
United States where, okay, I've never

716
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,870
done this before, but I'm smart.

717
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,190
I can figure it out.

718
00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:17,340
I've got Google, I can Google
it, I can just do this.

719
00:28:17,670 --> 00:28:21,570
And then in Europe, you know, these
are very accomplished professionals.

720
00:28:21,570 --> 00:28:21,990
These people are

721
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:23,382
actually academically.

722
00:28:23,382 --> 00:28:25,470
more credentialed than

723
00:28:25,470 --> 00:28:26,910
Stephen M. Perry: their US counterparts.

724
00:28:27,090 --> 00:28:27,450
They actually

725
00:28:27,450 --> 00:28:31,030
have more on their,  CV
in terms of experience,

726
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,890
Stephen M. Perry: and they're very
measured about what is possible and

727
00:28:34,890 --> 00:28:36,510
what is the likelihood of success.

728
00:28:36,990 --> 00:28:42,120
And I feel like honestly, that can slow
Europe down a little bit, but it's, it's

729
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,200
also very reassuring.

730
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:44,640
that's why I'm, I'm

731
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,820
Stephen M. Perry: only driving exclusively
German automobiles right now, Roger.

732
00:28:48,810 --> 00:28:53,310
It's very reassuring because when they do
say yes, and when they do jump in, yeah.

733
00:28:53,460 --> 00:28:55,620
They, they have all the boxes checked.

734
00:28:55,620 --> 00:28:55,890
Roger Lias: Yeah.

735
00:28:56,190 --> 00:28:57,540
We're gonna, we need to be aware though.

736
00:28:57,540 --> 00:29:00,870
But you know, in, within the US you
know, culture works and everything

737
00:29:00,870 --> 00:29:04,440
else, people see the US as being
pretty obnoxious sometimes.

738
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:06,120
And we, we shouldn't do that.

739
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,000
We're gotta make sure if we need to
be working together, we don't wanna

740
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,880
upset our European counterparts,
which we do fairly regularly.

741
00:29:11,940 --> 00:29:14,790
Probably particularly now in
the current political situation.

742
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:15,990
It's really quite.

743
00:29:16,545 --> 00:29:19,575
Depressing to talk to European
colleagues right now about the

744
00:29:19,575 --> 00:29:24,285
US and we're we, you know, we're
creating a, this is big picture now.

745
00:29:24,285 --> 00:29:28,395
Of course we're creating a, a pretty bad
situation in my opinion, but even just

746
00:29:28,395 --> 00:29:34,665
in more general that I, I think the US
is, you know, still quite insular, right?

747
00:29:34,665 --> 00:29:37,425
I mean the, I dunno what the percentages
are now, but the percentage of

748
00:29:37,425 --> 00:29:40,545
Europeans have a passport versus
the percentage of the US has a

749
00:29:40,545 --> 00:29:42,225
passport is a radical difference.

750
00:29:42,855 --> 00:29:46,725
So, you know, we tend to look
quite inward in the US and I,

751
00:29:46,730 --> 00:29:48,495
I, yeah, I'm biased, right?

752
00:29:48,495 --> 00:29:52,485
I'm a European by birth, but
I think it's, it's quite sad.

753
00:29:52,485 --> 00:29:53,320
We, we don't really.

754
00:29:54,225 --> 00:29:56,055
Embrace the rest of the world very much

755
00:29:56,655 --> 00:29:59,745
Stephen M. Perry: and we're not
edu I think we lack as, as the

756
00:29:59,745 --> 00:30:00,785
country as a whole.

757
00:30:01,045 --> 00:30:02,085
I mean these are just

758
00:30:02,085 --> 00:30:03,405
Stephen M. Perry: all
generalizations, right?

759
00:30:03,735 --> 00:30:07,815
I think we lack the educating
ourselves about all these other

760
00:30:07,815 --> 00:30:10,035
cultures and the, the long histories.

761
00:30:10,035 --> 00:30:12,315
I mean, the United States has
a relatively short history.

762
00:30:12,855 --> 00:30:15,735
There are buildings that you
can walk to in, in Europe and

763
00:30:15,735 --> 00:30:18,255
even, my goodness in Asia and.

764
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,429
This is multiples of how long the United
States has existed in terms of just a

765
00:30:23,429 --> 00:30:24,504
discovered country.

766
00:30:24,504 --> 00:30:25,042
Yep.

767
00:30:25,042 --> 00:30:27,192
from, from that time.

768
00:30:27,192 --> 00:30:29,879
so I, I'm very sensitive

769
00:30:29,879 --> 00:30:30,990
Stephen M. Perry: to not being the

770
00:30:30,990 --> 00:30:33,141
obnoxious American loud.

771
00:30:33,141 --> 00:30:36,010
you know, blow hard

772
00:30:36,060 --> 00:30:38,520
Stephen M. Perry: American,
you know, either on vacation

773
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:39,690
or in the business meetings.

774
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,910
But I do like to bring that risk taking
and that energy level and let that bleed

775
00:30:44,910 --> 00:30:47,550
over a little bit,  for
our European colleagues.

776
00:30:47,550 --> 00:30:49,350
Roger Lias: And that's, yeah,
with the, it's, there's plenty

777
00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:50,550
of ways to skin a cat, right?

778
00:30:50,910 --> 00:30:51,935
We should embrace and find.

779
00:30:52,465 --> 00:30:56,605
Best set from everything, but no
one culture can say our way is best.

780
00:30:56,635 --> 00:30:57,175
It just isn't.

781
00:30:57,295 --> 00:31:00,355
I, we need to understand that and
look for opportunities to embrace.

782
00:31:00,805 --> 00:31:00,865
Yeah.

783
00:31:00,865 --> 00:31:04,135
As you said earlier, maybe eastern culture
and forward thinking comes into it.

784
00:31:04,135 --> 00:31:05,185
There's, there's so many.

785
00:31:05,395 --> 00:31:06,415
It's a big world out there.

786
00:31:07,105 --> 00:31:07,315
Stephen M. Perry: A lot.

787
00:31:07,315 --> 00:31:10,105
What I noticed, Roger, I think one
of the reasons the US kind of gets

788
00:31:10,105 --> 00:31:13,400
away with this bad behavior or
like we're not studying all the.

789
00:31:14,055 --> 00:31:16,515
Cultural differences, we're not
learning about the histories of all

790
00:31:16,515 --> 00:31:20,475
these countries is because when you
look at global healthcare, spending us

791
00:31:20,475 --> 00:31:23,235
is so dominant in the spending, right?

792
00:31:23,235 --> 00:31:23,295
Yeah.

793
00:31:23,295 --> 00:31:26,955
So no matter who you are, you're
a, an engineer, a scientist, just a

794
00:31:26,955 --> 00:31:31,875
business person with a new idea that
is gonna be a, a new modern medicine

795
00:31:31,875 --> 00:31:34,406
or a, a new modern,  treatment.

796
00:31:34,406 --> 00:31:35,250
For patients

797
00:31:35,250 --> 00:31:39,750
Stephen M. Perry: in need, your market
is going to be in the us and so I think

798
00:31:39,780 --> 00:31:44,129
there's this, this,  false
belief that everything's

799
00:31:44,129 --> 00:31:47,610
Stephen M. Perry: happening in the United
States when in reality, when we start to

800
00:31:47,610 --> 00:31:53,399
unpack the supply chain, there's a lot of
things that are happening for those us.

801
00:31:53,630 --> 00:31:57,590
Companies, those US-based products,
those things that have, were, were,

802
00:31:57,620 --> 00:32:01,850
you know, born and made here in the
United States, and there is a heavy

803
00:32:01,850 --> 00:32:03,830
reliance on the global supply chain.

804
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:05,840
So could you talk a little bit about that

805
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,170
global supply chain
and,  the, the importance

806
00:32:09,170 --> 00:32:09,320
Stephen M. Perry: it has?

807
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:11,000
Oh, in our

808
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,080
Roger Lias: business it's massive.

809
00:32:12,140 --> 00:32:13,250
As, as it happens.

810
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,620
Little over a year ago, I was pulled into

811
00:32:15,968 --> 00:32:19,100
a, a e five,  for which at the time was

812
00:32:19,100 --> 00:32:19,700
Roger Lias: confidential.

813
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:22,550
Now it's known about,  at
the Bayer International

814
00:32:22,550 --> 00:32:25,250
Roger Lias: Convention talking
exactly about supply chain.

815
00:32:25,250 --> 00:32:27,680
And we were talking about, you
know, at that point, you know, it's

816
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,980
batteries and rarer of minerals
and, and its real supply chain.

817
00:32:31,790 --> 00:32:36,050
We are dependent on the rest of the
world, including China, and, you know.

818
00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:36,380
Yep.

819
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,850
And I, I think we are gonna run,
personally, we're gonna run ourselves

820
00:32:40,850 --> 00:32:44,360
into a lot of problems if we keep down
the, the current path without getting

821
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,280
into sort of naked politics or anything.

822
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:46,910
You know,

823
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,805
exceptionalism works to a point.

824
00:32:49,805 --> 00:32:52,650
but we're in a global,

825
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:53,570
Roger Lias: a global world.

826
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,020
We are, yeah.

827
00:32:54,410 --> 00:32:54,770
Now.

828
00:32:55,185 --> 00:32:59,925
Can you theoretically, you know,
reshore onshore your supply chain.

829
00:32:59,985 --> 00:33:00,165
Yeah.

830
00:33:00,165 --> 00:33:02,025
But it's gonna take years
and years and years.

831
00:33:02,265 --> 00:33:05,145
And in some cases we simply
don't have the materials.

832
00:33:05,145 --> 00:33:05,415
Right.

833
00:33:05,505 --> 00:33:06,585
The raw materials.

834
00:33:06,645 --> 00:33:10,305
So we still need to go to
Uzbekistan or wherever it is.

835
00:33:10,335 --> 00:33:10,395
Yeah.

836
00:33:10,395 --> 00:33:12,675
Where we're mining our
boron, you know, it's like

837
00:33:12,735 --> 00:33:12,795
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.

838
00:33:12,795 --> 00:33:14,775
And you're not, you're not
always dealing with, you know,

839
00:33:14,805 --> 00:33:16,515
a thermo fisher or whatever,

840
00:33:16,515 --> 00:33:19,036
whoever's in your,  supply chain.

841
00:33:19,036 --> 00:33:19,540
Um.

842
00:33:19,540 --> 00:33:20,044
You're

843
00:33:20,084 --> 00:33:23,804
Stephen M. Perry: sometimes dealing
with a, a niche company that's

844
00:33:23,804 --> 00:33:25,814
really only located in that country.

845
00:33:25,814 --> 00:33:29,475
And so this is where you need
to really be sensitive as a

846
00:33:29,475 --> 00:33:31,034
business person, as and as just

847
00:33:31,034 --> 00:33:33,257
as a, as a visitor.

848
00:33:33,257 --> 00:33:35,035
and that could be.

849
00:33:35,085 --> 00:33:38,145
Stephen M. Perry: The only supplier
or maybe the only one of two

850
00:33:38,145 --> 00:33:40,905
suppliers in the world that can
really provide what you need.

851
00:33:40,910 --> 00:33:41,000
We're,

852
00:33:41,005 --> 00:33:41,085
Roger Lias: we're

853
00:33:41,085 --> 00:33:42,195
Stephen M. Perry: not
gonna be self-sustaining

854
00:33:42,195 --> 00:33:43,515
Roger Lias: in bananas anytime soon.

855
00:33:43,515 --> 00:33:43,755
Right.

856
00:33:43,755 --> 00:33:45,375
And it's the same principle, right?

857
00:33:45,375 --> 00:33:47,835
I mean, some things only come
from certain parts of the world.

858
00:33:47,865 --> 00:33:48,105
Yeah.

859
00:33:48,495 --> 00:33:48,945
So,

860
00:33:48,995 --> 00:33:50,745
yeah, and I think,  that's where even,

861
00:33:50,745 --> 00:33:53,610
Stephen M. Perry: even if you're thinking
that, okay, all the growth is the United

862
00:33:53,610 --> 00:33:56,565
States, all the capital is being deployed
in the United States, a lot of the, a lot

863
00:33:56,565 --> 00:34:00,405
of the innovations in the United States,
it's like, well, even if that is true, and

864
00:34:00,405 --> 00:34:01,957
it's not always true.

865
00:34:01,957 --> 00:34:03,510
the supply chain is,

866
00:34:03,510 --> 00:34:04,889
Stephen M. Perry: is
we're global supply chain.

867
00:34:04,889 --> 00:34:04,980
She's

868
00:34:04,980 --> 00:34:06,420
Roger Lias: reliant on
a global supply chain.

869
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:06,660
Yeah.

870
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,460
And that's, you know, in
biopharmaceuticals again, perhaps less

871
00:34:11,460 --> 00:34:13,230
so in biopharmaceuticals than some other.

872
00:34:13,725 --> 00:34:17,355
Industrial areas, but it's still,
you know, it only takes one or two

873
00:34:17,355 --> 00:34:19,125
things to be missing and you're done.

874
00:34:19,305 --> 00:34:20,085
I mean, that's the end.

875
00:34:20,844 --> 00:34:22,276
Let's talk about,  Saudi Arabia.

876
00:34:22,276 --> 00:34:22,515
I think

877
00:34:22,515 --> 00:34:23,985
Stephen M. Perry: that's
an interesting country.

878
00:34:24,225 --> 00:34:24,735
They obviously

879
00:34:24,735 --> 00:34:27,945
have quite a bit of,  money
from their oil-based

880
00:34:27,945 --> 00:34:30,225
Stephen M. Perry: economy, and I
think strategically they're trying

881
00:34:30,225 --> 00:34:32,685
to wean themselves off and diversify.

882
00:34:32,870 --> 00:34:35,740
Their, their country,
for, you know, their,

883
00:34:35,740 --> 00:34:37,900
Stephen M. Perry: their a hundred
year, their a thousand year future.

884
00:34:38,230 --> 00:34:39,220
And they're really

885
00:34:39,220 --> 00:34:42,430
leaning into, you
know,  advanced therapies

886
00:34:42,430 --> 00:34:43,630
Stephen M. Perry: and, and, you

887
00:34:43,630 --> 00:34:46,952
know, biologics and,  drugs as a.

888
00:34:46,952 --> 00:34:48,060
Part of

889
00:34:48,060 --> 00:34:51,480
Stephen M. Perry: their country and
making these large investments at

890
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:52,515
the government level.

891
00:34:52,515 --> 00:34:54,240
could you talk a little

892
00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:54,870
Stephen M. Perry: bit about what

893
00:34:54,870 --> 00:34:57,210
you know there and,  how, how do you think

894
00:34:57,210 --> 00:34:59,100
Stephen M. Perry: that's gonna
play out over the next five years?

895
00:34:59,130 --> 00:34:59,490
Yeah, I

896
00:34:59,490 --> 00:35:02,700
Roger Lias: think money talks of course,
and it's not just Saudi Arabia got

897
00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:06,540
Emirates and Jordan and a lot of areas,
and even so all those oil producing

898
00:35:06,540 --> 00:35:09,240
countries, other parts of North Africa
as well, they're starting to, you know,

899
00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:12,074
invest in, you know,  more domestic.

900
00:35:12,074 --> 00:35:16,325
Pharmaceutical manufacturing put,
put simply,  it, it'll happen for

901
00:35:16,325 --> 00:35:16,774
Roger Lias: sure.

902
00:35:16,865 --> 00:35:17,915
That's an interesting one.

903
00:35:17,915 --> 00:35:20,194
'cause we talk about
resources and materials.

904
00:35:21,154 --> 00:35:25,325
In that case, they, they have the
money and the engineering capabilities

905
00:35:25,325 --> 00:35:26,254
and things to do these things.

906
00:35:26,585 --> 00:35:29,720
It's actually people, so the,
the resource then is actually.

907
00:35:30,435 --> 00:35:34,095
Ver largely people coming from
the US and Europe and we, we

908
00:35:34,095 --> 00:35:35,145
shouldn't forget that either.

909
00:35:35,595 --> 00:35:36,795
So it takes time.

910
00:35:36,795 --> 00:35:37,913
They need expertise.

911
00:35:37,913 --> 00:35:39,405
but it, it'll, well,

912
00:35:39,405 --> 00:35:40,155
Roger Lias: it is happening.

913
00:35:40,155 --> 00:35:41,505
It's not case of it will happening.

914
00:35:41,505 --> 00:35:42,015
It's very much

915
00:35:42,015 --> 00:35:42,525
Stephen M. Perry: happening.

916
00:35:43,045 --> 00:35:44,355
and I think of like

917
00:35:44,355 --> 00:35:44,445
Roger Lias: the

918
00:35:44,445 --> 00:35:45,765
Stephen M. Perry: Samsung biologic story.

919
00:35:45,765 --> 00:35:51,225
Did, I mean, did, did Korea really
have biopharmaceutical development

920
00:35:51,225 --> 00:35:54,435
and manufacturing in their core
DNA or did they import that for

921
00:35:54,435 --> 00:35:56,475
years and had to build it up?

922
00:35:56,475 --> 00:35:58,065
They had manufacturing in their

923
00:35:58,065 --> 00:35:59,955
Roger Lias: core DNA, but
they didn't really have.

924
00:36:00,455 --> 00:36:05,145
Bio manufac the bio bit, but they've,
they've built it incredibly successfully.

925
00:36:05,655 --> 00:36:06,675
I just know, I just know a

926
00:36:06,675 --> 00:36:11,325
Stephen M. Perry: lot of of people
that were imported to specifically the

927
00:36:11,325 --> 00:36:13,130
Samsung Biologics,  project.

928
00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:13,731
Yep.

929
00:36:13,731 --> 00:36:14,934
And then.

930
00:36:14,984 --> 00:36:17,745
Stephen M. Perry: Now, and they, you
know, they put in multi-year stints.

931
00:36:17,805 --> 00:36:18,015
Yeah.

932
00:36:18,254 --> 00:36:21,770
And I felt like that was a strategic
initiative from Absolutely.

933
00:36:21,770 --> 00:36:24,734
From Samsung to, to import that knowledge.

934
00:36:24,944 --> 00:36:25,154
Roger Lias: Yeah.

935
00:36:25,245 --> 00:36:27,615
And China, no different as well.

936
00:36:27,615 --> 00:36:30,674
I mean that, and one interesting
when I was thinking about, you

937
00:36:30,674 --> 00:36:33,884
know, this podcast, one of the
back to the culture thing, right?

938
00:36:34,305 --> 00:36:37,424
There's, there's, and now again,
I'm not picking on any, but if we

939
00:36:37,424 --> 00:36:40,995
look at India, a lot of expats, you
know, come to the US or Europe to.

940
00:36:41,085 --> 00:36:44,145
Or Australia, wherever, to be
educated and to get experience

941
00:36:44,145 --> 00:36:45,645
and then go back to India.

942
00:36:46,125 --> 00:36:51,615
One observation I made is a lot of them
very quickly integrate back into the, to

943
00:36:51,615 --> 00:36:55,275
their home culture, understandably, in
terms of leadership and management style.

944
00:36:55,635 --> 00:36:59,175
So you've got the, you bring the
technical, you know, expertise,

945
00:36:59,835 --> 00:37:04,065
but the, that sort of western
leadership does not translate,

946
00:37:04,065 --> 00:37:05,565
integrate, translate back in again.

947
00:37:05,565 --> 00:37:10,090
It immediately reverts back to,
to what works wherever you are.

948
00:37:10,785 --> 00:37:12,285
Stephen M. Perry: Let's get
to some of the takeaways.

949
00:37:12,285 --> 00:37:18,645
So if you were to advise a younger version
of yourself who, who's now had this

950
00:37:18,735 --> 00:37:24,615
amazing, stellar global biopharmaceutical
career, what are some of the takeaways

951
00:37:24,615 --> 00:37:28,875
you would give your yourself just
starting out in this, this business?

952
00:37:29,145 --> 00:37:29,325
All

953
00:37:29,325 --> 00:37:29,715
Roger Lias: right.

954
00:37:29,715 --> 00:37:31,785
I, I think a big one for
me is if a door opens.

955
00:37:32,084 --> 00:37:33,375
Take it, you know, walk through it,

956
00:37:33,444 --> 00:37:34,251
that's for sure.

957
00:37:34,251 --> 00:37:34,519
Okay.

958
00:37:34,519 --> 00:37:35,595
we, we have massive

959
00:37:35,595 --> 00:37:37,424
Roger Lias: opportunity
in our industry here.

960
00:37:37,484 --> 00:37:37,904
You know, we have our

961
00:37:37,904 --> 00:37:40,605
struggles right now,  capital markets and

962
00:37:40,605 --> 00:37:43,035
Roger Lias: what have you, but the,
the potential of these products

963
00:37:43,035 --> 00:37:45,464
and, you know, now, especially with
cellular therapies and things like,

964
00:37:45,464 --> 00:37:46,875
it's just, you know, this is, this

965
00:37:46,875 --> 00:37:47,645
could change society.

966
00:37:47,645 --> 00:37:49,185
so I think it's a great

967
00:37:49,185 --> 00:37:52,185
Roger Lias: field to be in, but
yeah, take, take those opportunities.

968
00:37:52,185 --> 00:37:53,685
When they arise, they will arise.

969
00:37:53,685 --> 00:37:56,984
You know, I think back to, you know, what
would my life have been like if I hadn't?

970
00:37:57,245 --> 00:38:00,485
Taken that opportunity to come
across to the US 37 years ago.

971
00:38:00,545 --> 00:38:00,665
Yeah.

972
00:38:00,665 --> 00:38:01,820
Stephen M. Perry: Can you, can
we back, can we back up and talk?

973
00:38:01,820 --> 00:38:02,020
Yeah.

974
00:38:02,025 --> 00:38:02,585
Talk about that.

975
00:38:02,585 --> 00:38:05,795
So you were, were you a
grad student or, yeah.

976
00:38:05,795 --> 00:38:07,715
No, I'd finished my PhD. I
was working for a company.

977
00:38:07,715 --> 00:38:08,585
Okay, so postdoc?

978
00:38:08,735 --> 00:38:09,035
Not

979
00:38:09,035 --> 00:38:10,085
Roger Lias: postdoc, actually, no.

980
00:38:10,085 --> 00:38:10,895
I was done with academic.

981
00:38:10,895 --> 00:38:11,795
So you were working in industry?

982
00:38:12,365 --> 00:38:14,225
Yeah, I, I was working for
a company called Medi Sense,

983
00:38:14,225 --> 00:38:16,665
and we were doing,  biosensor, diagnos

984
00:38:16,715 --> 00:38:19,415
Roger Lias: Diagnostics, and
I was an en entomologist.

985
00:38:19,415 --> 00:38:20,825
Essentially, IM mobilizing enzymes.

986
00:38:21,674 --> 00:38:24,915
Agnostic use and I was, the
story's quite interesting.

987
00:38:24,915 --> 00:38:27,705
I was sitting in the lab one day, I was,
you know, I was just lab rat, right?

988
00:38:27,944 --> 00:38:30,404
PhD scientist and you know, called Roger.

989
00:38:30,404 --> 00:38:33,435
It's the gentleman's name is Ron Van,
he's the chairman of the company.

990
00:38:33,495 --> 00:38:35,355
And I thought someone
was putting my leg on.

991
00:38:35,865 --> 00:38:36,134
Right.

992
00:38:36,134 --> 00:38:37,455
So I'm like, hello?

993
00:38:37,455 --> 00:38:40,215
Yeah, sure enough, it was,
and they'd had a board meeting

994
00:38:40,215 --> 00:38:43,275
and, and he wanted,  you know, five 10 Ks

995
00:38:43,275 --> 00:38:44,925
Roger Lias: filed for
these diagnostic products.

996
00:38:44,955 --> 00:38:46,634
Roger, do you know what a five 10 K is?

997
00:38:47,145 --> 00:38:49,995
Sort of something to do
with the FDA good enough?

998
00:38:50,115 --> 00:38:51,435
Pick someone else out of the lab.

999
00:38:51,435 --> 00:38:56,265
I want you to, we were in Oxford area
in the uk, fly to Boston, Massachusetts.

1000
00:38:56,265 --> 00:38:57,375
There was a consultant there.

1001
00:38:57,404 --> 00:38:57,855
So this is

1002
00:38:57,855 --> 00:38:58,935
Stephen M. Perry: opportunity knocking.

1003
00:38:58,935 --> 00:38:59,085
Yeah,

1004
00:38:59,955 --> 00:39:01,365
Roger Lias: this is, and then yeah, this
is, and this is like, this is Wednesday.

1005
00:39:01,365 --> 00:39:02,415
I want you to find Friday.

1006
00:39:02,445 --> 00:39:02,775
Right.

1007
00:39:03,345 --> 00:39:03,735
So.

1008
00:39:04,485 --> 00:39:05,175
Jumped at it.

1009
00:39:05,175 --> 00:39:05,475
Right.

1010
00:39:05,505 --> 00:39:08,805
And so it, so it was a three week stint
happened to be over Christmas, period.

1011
00:39:09,135 --> 00:39:12,225
We had to get, you know, we had to
do the label copy and all this stuff.

1012
00:39:12,225 --> 00:39:13,785
I, we didn't know what we were doing.

1013
00:39:13,785 --> 00:39:15,075
We're making it up as we were going along.

1014
00:39:15,075 --> 00:39:17,265
I think even the consultant
respectfully was helping us.

1015
00:39:17,265 --> 00:39:19,725
Didn't know everything you needed
to know, but we got it done and

1016
00:39:19,725 --> 00:39:23,355
we filed these 3, 5, 10 Ks and
it was a fun experience, right?

1017
00:39:23,355 --> 00:39:24,585
We worked our rear ends off.

1018
00:39:24,865 --> 00:39:25,915
Took advantage of it.

1019
00:39:25,915 --> 00:39:30,084
It was snowing cold as hell in Boston
for three weeks, but that three weeks

1020
00:39:30,084 --> 00:39:32,634
results didn't come back for three
months and then three years on an H

1021
00:39:32,634 --> 00:39:37,435
one B visa and then a green card and
a wife and kids and life changes.

1022
00:39:37,435 --> 00:39:37,495
Yeah.

1023
00:39:37,495 --> 00:39:38,665
Stephen M. Perry: So you,
it's kind of funny that you

1024
00:39:38,665 --> 00:39:40,944
got your opportunity knocking

1025
00:39:40,975 --> 00:39:43,603
wasn't some next gen.

1026
00:39:43,603 --> 00:39:45,575
biotech program, but

1027
00:39:45,575 --> 00:39:46,085
Stephen M. Perry: it was a, oh no.

1028
00:39:46,325 --> 00:39:47,495
In vitro diagnostic.

1029
00:39:47,495 --> 00:39:48,455
Is that what that was?

1030
00:39:48,455 --> 00:39:48,694
Yeah.

1031
00:39:48,754 --> 00:39:49,145
Basically

1032
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,745
Roger Lias: the, the technology is
still fundamentally the same now for

1033
00:39:52,745 --> 00:39:56,075
a lot of these blood glucose monitors
for, for diabetes, but we had tests

1034
00:39:56,075 --> 00:39:58,984
for cholesterol and acetaminophen
poisoning and all sorts of things.

1035
00:39:59,254 --> 00:40:02,345
I'll tell you one day about the clinical
trials at Cook Hospital in Chicago.

1036
00:40:02,345 --> 00:40:02,884
That was fun.

1037
00:40:03,095 --> 00:40:03,365
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.

1038
00:40:03,365 --> 00:40:06,214
But now you're at a company
in ox where we're actually the

1039
00:40:06,214 --> 00:40:07,993
world's number one.

1040
00:40:07,993 --> 00:40:09,180
professional services

1041
00:40:09,180 --> 00:40:11,370
Stephen M. Perry: firm
for combination products.

1042
00:40:11,370 --> 00:40:16,470
So this is, you know, a, a, a
high value biologic in some type

1043
00:40:16,470 --> 00:40:19,950
of dose delivery system that's
classified as a medical device.

1044
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,190
And there's a whole other set
of regulations called part four

1045
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:24,456
if you're in the us.

1046
00:40:24,456 --> 00:40:25,470
that kind of governs

1047
00:40:25,470 --> 00:40:26,880
Stephen M. Perry: these,
these combination product.

1048
00:40:27,660 --> 00:40:30,839
And what's funny is you're, you're
like, Hey, see, I just let me focus

1049
00:40:30,839 --> 00:40:34,649
on the biologics, but your background
is, is actually on that device side.

1050
00:40:34,649 --> 00:40:35,790
Roger Lias: Very early background.

1051
00:40:35,790 --> 00:40:36,060
Yeah, very

1052
00:40:36,060 --> 00:40:36,620
early background.

1053
00:40:36,620 --> 00:40:38,580
So I,  I then got an opportunity

1054
00:40:38,580 --> 00:40:39,180
Roger Lias: to move in.

1055
00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:39,359
Yeah.

1056
00:40:39,390 --> 00:40:39,745
We were doing.

1057
00:40:40,935 --> 00:40:44,444
Planograms for CVS and, you
know, Sunday supplements in

1058
00:40:44,444 --> 00:40:45,404
the Boston Globe and things.

1059
00:40:45,404 --> 00:40:45,629
But yeah.

1060
00:40:45,629 --> 00:40:47,565
But Dr. Nick, far from Dr. Nick

1061
00:40:47,565 --> 00:40:49,802
Lano runs our,  IVD program.

1062
00:40:49,802 --> 00:40:50,174
I think

1063
00:40:50,174 --> 00:40:53,055
Stephen M. Perry: he's got an opening,
Roger, so, oh, I say if, if the door

1064
00:40:53,055 --> 00:40:54,254
Roger Lias: opens, you
gotta walk through it.

1065
00:40:54,254 --> 00:40:54,495
Maybe

1066
00:40:54,495 --> 00:40:55,575
that's my next step.

1067
00:40:55,575 --> 00:40:56,115
So,  okay.

1068
00:40:56,115 --> 00:40:56,924
But yeah, I,

1069
00:40:56,924 --> 00:41:00,165
Roger Lias: I move, say long time
ago into the biologics manufacturing,

1070
00:41:00,194 --> 00:41:03,975
so I've been basically of my
37 years here, only the first.

1071
00:41:04,350 --> 00:41:05,340
Couple of years where Yeah.

1072
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,259
In that side of the,
that side of the fence.

1073
00:41:07,509 --> 00:41:08,910
alright, so that, that's

1074
00:41:08,910 --> 00:41:08,970
Stephen M. Perry: a

1075
00:41:08,970 --> 00:41:11,970
great word of wisdom,  is
when an opportunity

1076
00:41:11,970 --> 00:41:12,450
Stephen M. Perry: knocks,

1077
00:41:12,730 --> 00:41:15,540
go through the door,  run
through the door.

1078
00:41:15,540 --> 00:41:16,020
Stephen M. Perry: Absolutely.

1079
00:41:16,020 --> 00:41:16,380
And knock the

1080
00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:17,670
Roger Lias: damn door down if you have to.

1081
00:41:17,790 --> 00:41:17,970
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.

1082
00:41:18,180 --> 00:41:19,740
But if there's a hint of an opportunity.

1083
00:41:19,740 --> 00:41:23,040
Any, any other takeaways, any other
wisdom you'd give your younger self?

1084
00:41:23,105 --> 00:41:23,325
Oh

1085
00:41:23,705 --> 00:41:23,925
Roger Lias: boy.

1086
00:41:24,265 --> 00:41:24,485
Um.

1087
00:41:26,879 --> 00:41:30,359
That's probably a, a whole lot in,
you know, personal life and real life.

1088
00:41:30,359 --> 00:41:31,589
But no, I mean I've been very

1089
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:34,799
fortunate and I think,  again, the back to

1090
00:41:34,799 --> 00:41:37,620
Roger Lias: the culture and the
travel, take that travel opportunity

1091
00:41:37,649 --> 00:41:38,970
every opportunity you can get.

1092
00:41:38,970 --> 00:41:40,859
I think it's the, that great education.

1093
00:41:40,859 --> 00:41:44,040
I encourage, you know, my own kids
now, you know, in their early twenties.

1094
00:41:44,775 --> 00:41:46,605
Take it, do it, travel, get out there.

1095
00:41:46,695 --> 00:41:47,955
There's a big world out there.

1096
00:41:48,435 --> 00:41:49,395
That's great advice.

1097
00:41:49,575 --> 00:41:49,815
Yeah.

1098
00:41:50,085 --> 00:41:50,685
So yeah,

1099
00:41:50,685 --> 00:41:50,925
Stephen M. Perry: I'll,

1100
00:41:50,925 --> 00:41:51,645
Roger Lias: I'll leave it at that.

1101
00:41:51,675 --> 00:41:51,975
Okay.

1102
00:41:52,455 --> 00:41:52,665
Stephen M. Perry: Alright.

1103
00:41:52,665 --> 00:41:53,475
Well thanks everyone.

1104
00:41:53,565 --> 00:41:54,075
We appreciate

1105
00:41:54,075 --> 00:41:54,225
Roger Lias: it.

1106
00:41:54,225 --> 00:41:56,385
I, I haven't got long enough
to go over all the stumbles and

1107
00:41:56,385 --> 00:41:57,675
mistakes I've made, so Yeah.

1108
00:41:57,675 --> 00:41:57,885
That'll

1109
00:41:57,885 --> 00:41:58,725
Stephen M. Perry: be
a whole other podcast.

1110
00:41:58,725 --> 00:41:58,850
It would

1111
00:41:58,855 --> 00:42:00,495
Roger Lias: do a, a four
week series for that.

1112
00:42:00,495 --> 00:42:00,585
Stephen M. Perry: Yeah.

1113
00:42:00,585 --> 00:42:02,055
And I, and actually I like failure.

1114
00:42:02,055 --> 00:42:06,105
I mean, everyone I think's scared of
failure and it's like, look, when we're

1115
00:42:06,105 --> 00:42:10,095
running experiments at, at, for on
behalf of our clients here at Chime Ox.

1116
00:42:10,410 --> 00:42:12,870
And the experiment goes as planned.

1117
00:42:13,170 --> 00:42:14,279
We learn nothing.

1118
00:42:14,490 --> 00:42:15,509
We absolutely learn nothing.

1119
00:42:15,509 --> 00:42:15,870
Roger.

1120
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:15,960
Yeah.

1121
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:16,830
Embrace the suck.

1122
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,410
And so when the experiment fails,
we, we then investigate why.

1123
00:42:22,500 --> 00:42:26,160
And then we, we keep, you
know, asking why, why, why?

1124
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,859
And then eventually we
gain a new understanding.

1125
00:42:29,609 --> 00:42:33,660
And so where all the learning
occurs about product and process

1126
00:42:33,660 --> 00:42:37,350
knowledge, which ultimately benefits
the, the patient is when we fail.

1127
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:37,675
Absolutely.

1128
00:42:37,675 --> 00:42:39,600
So I think,  I think people need

1129
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:39,810
Stephen M. Perry: to.

1130
00:42:40,140 --> 00:42:41,190
Embrace failure.

1131
00:42:41,220 --> 00:42:41,520
Yep.

1132
00:42:41,580 --> 00:42:42,450
Dust yourself off.

1133
00:42:42,540 --> 00:42:42,870
Yep.

1134
00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:43,650
Dust yourself off.

1135
00:42:43,650 --> 00:42:44,069
Get up

1136
00:42:44,069 --> 00:42:45,060
and, and go.

1137
00:42:45,060 --> 00:42:47,040
And then,  I'd like Roger's advice.

1138
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:48,000
Stephen M. Perry: I'll, I'll end on that.

1139
00:42:48,299 --> 00:42:49,350
Schedule that trip.

1140
00:42:49,350 --> 00:42:51,000
Get out and see the world.

1141
00:42:51,089 --> 00:42:54,060
Roger Lias: Don't take things too
personally either in your business life.

1142
00:42:54,330 --> 00:42:56,370
There's, there's always reasons
behind it, especially if you're in

1143
00:42:56,370 --> 00:42:57,299
business development and things.

1144
00:42:57,299 --> 00:42:57,960
You gotta get used

1145
00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:58,900
to rejection.

1146
00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:00,779
But,  don't, don't, don't

1147
00:43:00,779 --> 00:43:01,859
Roger Lias: let the bastards get you down.

1148
00:43:01,859 --> 00:43:02,700
Excuse my language.

1149
00:43:03,095 --> 00:43:03,634
That's great.

1150
00:43:04,255 --> 00:43:04,515
Stephen M. Perry: All right.

1151
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:05,819
Thanks everybody.

1152
00:43:05,819 --> 00:43:06,450
Thank you, Roger.

1153
00:43:06,450 --> 00:43:06,990
Appreciate it.

1154
00:43:06,990 --> 00:43:07,290
Welcome.

1155
00:43:07,290 --> 00:43:07,770
Thanks Steve.

1156
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:08,430
Take care.

1157
00:43:10,950 --> 00:43:12,870
Announcer: Thank you for
joining us on the Orange Tea.

1158
00:43:13,290 --> 00:43:17,400
Remember, at OX we believe in
small, capable T-shaped teams

1159
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,370
driving innovation and progress
through broad and deep thinking.

1160
00:43:21,270 --> 00:43:24,690
Stay connected with us on LinkedIn, and
don't forget to subscribe to our podcast

1161
00:43:24,690 --> 00:43:26,580
on YouTube or your favorite listening app.

1162
00:43:27,170 --> 00:43:30,440
For more information about
KY Minox, visit KY minox.com.

1163
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:33,950
That's K-Y-M-A-N-O x.com.

1164
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,310
Let's continue building and
growing together with intention.

1165
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:39,380
Until next time on the orange Tea.