MELODY: So there's a moment from one of our conversations that's been living rent-free in my head. 

FAITH: Okay, which moment is this? 

MELODY: So it's the one where, you know, there's something happened to me and then you reacted like as if a fire alarm had just gone off. And then I'm like, oh yeah, well, I barely lifted an eyebrow.

FAITH: This actually sounds like a lot of conversations that we have, so you're gonna have to be a bit more specific.

MELODY: Well, I will. But before that, welcome to Life in the Grey, a Mums At The Table podcast where we grapple with the psychological factors that shape how we relate to others. I'm Melody, a writer, a communicator, and project leader for Mums At The Table.

FAITH: And I'm Faith. I am a content creator that creates content that intersects psychology and spirituality, and you can find most of my work on Instagram at Hope Channel Singapore. 

MELODY: Okay, so context. 

FAITH: Context. 

MELODY: This was for an event that I was actually helping out with creating the online ticketing platform. I had done it, I sent the live URL to someone else, let's call them our favourite pseudonym, Jo, and to promote as we had discussed. So I was in charge of doing the ticketing platform and they were going to promote it. Sent it on, nothing. Crickets. A few days later, obviously, someone from the organising committee was then asking about the link, its promotion, what is happening, right? So instead of acknowledging that they had received it days ago from me and hadn't sent it, Jo declared in the group chat, oh, I was waiting for Melody to tell me that the URL was ready. It was ready days ago.

FAITH: I remember this story. Yes. And I remember that when you said that she had declared this in a group chat, despite having been given the information a few days ago, I was, I was like ready to take up.

MELODY: You were livid.

FAITH: Yes. I was like, let's ride at dawn. Okay. How dare she throw you under the bus? I was, I was ready to brainstorm all the different ways that we can, we could repair, quote unquote, right, your reputation or even like throw shade back while still not looking like we're throwing shade because, you know, we want to still maintain professionalism. Right. And I realised that you were not in the same frame of mind as me. In fact, you were quite unbothered. And that was when I realised, would it be that you did not consider what Jo did to be of any significant consequence?

MELODY: That was the interesting thing, because, you know, when you said all of that and the reality was, is that I felt all of those emotions as well. It wasn't like, you know, I'm just like lying in the beach and not thinking about anything. I did think that when I first got that, I'm like, “What in the world did you just do?” I was, I was quite indignant as well. But then, you know, as you started becoming equally indignant and wanting to do all of the things that I thought maybe we should have done as well, I started thinking about it a little bit more. And then it's just like, you know what, do I really need to repair the reputation harm, quote unquote? Do I really need to do anything here? And I thought about it further while we were still having the conversation. So this is happening in split seconds. But I just thought, you know what, I don't really care.

FAITH: It wasn't worth the kind of investment of energy and time, right? Because confrontation takes energy, takes time. And we have to consider whether or not the investment is worth it, I think. And I wonder also if some part of it was that when we can hold space for each other's experiences and emotions, then suddenly the weight of those feelings aren't as heavy anymore and they don't loom on us so much. So I'm wondering if like maybe because we both could hold that experience together for you, and then suddenly it doesn't feel so intense. And then you can then start to think, wait, if it's not that intense anymore, is this really worth pursuing?

MELODY: Yeah, it really wasn't something that was worth pursuing because number one, it was not for work. So professional reputation isn't quite at stake. It was for something that I was doing as a hobby. And how those people saw me, I don't really care. Like it doesn't really bother me because I'm not trying to hope to get business from them in future or whatever it is. And the reality is that yes, it was delayed a few days, but the impact on the event itself actually is minimal. Yes, we didn't promote it for four days, la-di-da. And so I'm just thinking about the impact of all of that. And I'm like, well, it really doesn't make a difference. And then I'm thinking to burn the bridge with Jo, to then let everyone see about how nit-picky I am about all of the different things. I was like, well, I think this is an instance in which I probably don't need to speak up per se.

FAITH: I also realised that I went into this whole we ride at dawn because a lot of this also came from my own projection of this experience based on my life. Think when you came to the conclusion that no, this is not something that you want to pursue, I had to make a decision. I was like, wait, why is she not pursuing this? Is she not taking care of herself? No, maybe I need to stand up for her. And then I thought, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Faith, are you standing up for her or are you trying to ride at dawn because this experience spoke to your lived experience. But right now, it's not you that's living through it. And no-one other than Melody knows the best at what she needs. And you got to ask yourself, do you trust her? Do you trust what conclusions she comes to about how she's going to process this?

MELODY: It's very interesting that you've come to this because we've had similar conversations like this before. It's interesting because I know that we have conversations where you have told me basically, you need to be more assertive. You need to really stand up for yourself more. You need to fight back, you know, and similar situations. And I'm going like, yes, I would fight back, but I don't really feel like I need to fight back in this situation. And to a certain extent, I'm glad that it's come to this because it's an insight as well as to why you were pushing for me to be so assertive. It's because you're coming from how you would react. And I'm coming from the fact that, you know, I don't really care. Whereas you're trying to say you should care. And it's that contrast about why you care and why I don't care and who's right or who's wrong.

FAITH: There really isn't a right or wrong. I would suggest this, right? It's more of choices and it's more of me realising that I want to protect you. I want to protect the people that I love and I care for. But when I insist on a pathway, is it really for their benefit or is it just because I'm trying to alleviate the feelings of discomfort or the fear that I have for an imaginary future, right? But again, you are not a child. So even if you chose to step away and maybe at that moment, maybe who knows, right? But maybe at that moment, it might have been more helpful to speak up. It's still not my life to live. It's yours. It's your life and it's your experience and it's your decision. And my role is to support you, is to ask questions, but it's not to step in and try to control what you do.

MELODY: Although there was one time I did control what you did.

FAITH: Wait, which one was that? 

MELODY: It just made me think about the time when I was back in Singapore and we were going to attend a workout together, right? And we turned up and then we discovered that the event was cancelled. And then the facilitators there told us it was cancelled.

FAITH: Yeah, I remember this one because sometimes you do want to step in and say, okay, hang on Faith, time to stop. You're going around in circles right now and then you kind of have to stop.

MELODY: Yeah, because they were there to inform people that it was cancelled, right? Which it turned out was just you and I, because the regulars were already in a WhatsApp group, so the facilitators could already message them. And you kept trying to tell them to understand that the organisers who had our contact details could have easily contacted us earlier on the day to tell us it was cancelled, instead of sending the facilitators down to tell us in person in the evening when the event was already meant to happen.

FAITH: And they got defensive. I could actually sense that they were getting defensive, but I couldn't help myself. The part of myself that just wanted to bring up and highlight, you know, amplify this gap in the system. I was trying to get them to realise because a part of me is thinking if they as facilitators can also see the gaps, that's when they can bring it up to the organisers and maybe as a whole, this whole system can be improved, this whole process can be improved. And I kept trying to highlight it to them and they kept pushing back, pushing back. And I was like, I could see that I was not getting anywhere and I couldn't stop myself.

MELODY: Yes, I could see it too. The two of you were just going around in circles and you were saying the same thing, using different words. And you know what? Yeah, I basically just stepped in. And that was like, you know what? I need to escape. I'm hungry. Let's go for dinner.

FAITH: So maybe that's the thing. When it starts to go round in circles, perhaps that's an indication that this is not the right pathway to pick.
MELODY: That's an interesting decision to make because it is a split-second decision. You have to decide whether, okay, firstly, you have to decide whether you assert yourself, whether you stand up for yourself, whether you speak up, whether you don't. And then after you've spoken up, do you decide then to back off, to not back off when you're in the middle of this?But for someone watching as well, do you then encourage the person to assert themselves or do you just back off and do you say, hey, let's just leave? It's a split-second decision to make and it's hard. It can be really, really hard.

FAITH: Yeah. And I wish that there was a guideline or a template, like a flowchart that we can easily go like, if this happens, yes or no, then what happens next? Yes or no? And so we know exactly what to do. At this moment, I haven't found one yet, but I think if anyone out there has got something that has worked for them, I would love to find out what it is and then maybe it could work for me too.

MELODY: It's, yeah, what you mentioned about that flowchart, right? So I don't have a flowchart. I'm not going to offer you one. But in my head, in a way of how I do it, when I decide to defend myself or when I decide to escape. All right. Context here is that I hate confrontations. So I'm the kind of person where when people cut in front of me in a queue, I just suck it up. I let it slide. It's like, fine, you go ahead. I'm not going to assert myself. I'm not going defend myself. But this is where the flowchart comes in. When my son is around, that's where it makes a difference because I want him to be more assertive, right? I want him to learn to speak up for himself. So when people cut in front of both of us, I tell them then that they need to go back to the back of the queue. So I guess for me, you know, there are times to debate, there are times to advocate, there are times to fight for our rights and there are times to escape and let it slide. And how I decided is, I guess, the kind of role model I want to be. Because for me, then that's the impact, right? If it just impacts me, I'll let it slide. But the impact as a role model to how it would influence my son, then that's when I decide that, you know, I need to teach my son about advocating. And well, I guess the other thing I hope that I'll be able to teach him as well is to be able to tell the difference and decide when he should assert himself and when he should just let it slide and let it escape as well.

FAITH: Well, this is Life in the Grey, a Mums At The Table podcast and I encourage you to share your thoughts with us. You can email us at hello@mumsatthetable.com or you can just leave a comment on whichever platform you're listening to us on right now. And if this episode resonated, if it helped untangle something for you, do let us know. And you could really also help us by sharing it with one other person whom you think might need to hear it. We'll be back next month for more, again, on Life in the Grey.

MELODY: Bye!