hello, and welcome to the 10,000 Things.
I'm Sam Ellis.
I'm Joe Low Today on the show, another quote from.
Eckhart from the power of now.
If you cannot be at ease with yourself when you are alone, you will seek a
relationship to cover up your unease.
You can be sure that the unease will then reappear in some other form within
the relationship, and you will probably hold your partner responsible for it.
Hmm.
So I wanted to, I read that when I was rereading for the hundredth
time, the Power of Now, and I wanted.
Mm.
That to lead us into a broader discussion of what I'm calling solitude versus
loneliness, Sam, you know, words, could you define solitude for our audience?
Okay.
My understanding is just the literal state of being alone.
Versus loneliness, which is a description of a feeling.
Isn't solitude, Ples kind of pleasurable?
Yeah.
So I was gonna say the, just the simplest denotation of the term
is just that state of not being in company with others, right?
But it has resonances or connotations such as an enjoyable peace and refuge or.
Uh, you know, a quiet, a cottage on the mos, right?
That's right.
You've gone away to the Dandenongs and you've got yourself an Airbnb
and you're writing your novel and you're, you're writing your
novel and the fire's crackling.
That's solitude.
Yes.
As opposed to you wake up and it's a Sunday morning and you're completely
on your own and you feel like no one cares and you can't reach anyone.
Yeah.
That's loneliness.
So I do wanna talk about the context is I'm completely alone at the
moment, as in I don't have a partner.
And that quote Yeah.
Is saying, if I can't be okay, if I can't turn my loneliness into solitude,
then there's no point even looking for a partner because I'll just be trying to
cover up the cracks of my loneliness and then they'll, the cracks will come through
and they'll ruin that relationship.
So what I'm saying, what I'm asking you Sam, is can you help
me find a way to solitude that is.
You know, bearable before, while I'm in this interregnum period.
In between relationships, can I make peace with being on my own?
There you go.
That's what I'm throwing out there.
Great.
Just a small task, and of course, eminently achievable in the next hour.
So we can do it.
We can do it.
Well, what I'll say is this, how much do you.
Well, how seriously do you take the, the quote in the first place, as you
know, does it reflect reality entirely?
You think?
Uh, I tend to, with things that I'm reading that's nonfiction,
spiritual kind of texts, yeah.
I tend to, um, treat them as if they know exactly what they're talking about.
And when I had a therapist, the therapist would say, I really wish you'd take
what I was saying a bit more with a grain of salt, because I would just.
Make out like she was a hundred percent correct.
So I'm probably the opposite of you probably is quite critical, but I
just swallowed that quote whole and the broader book about the power of
now, about the per the importance of being in the present moment.
I really swallow it quite whole and agree with it all.
Well, I think there's a ton of stuff in that book that I think
there's a ton of stuff in that book that rises to the level of.
At least, you know, true enough for working purposes, right?
Yeah.
So, you know, we can take statements provisionally.
We don't have to hold them to be true now and forever, but what we can do is
recognize that something has resonated with us and that it appears truthful,
that it appears to like fit with our experience, which is the, you know,
to, to some degree the best we can do.
Personally.
I do believe there is something resembling an objective reality out there, right?
But what we tend to experience it through language and through sensory perception
and that sort of thing, which all of which have been all demonstrated countless
times to be somewhat unreliable things.
Right?
And one of the unreliable feelings we have is loneliness,
but it is a marker of something.
It points to something.
And so I, I'm pretty satisfied with the quote.
I, I do feel that.
If you get into, well, even for that matter, a friendship or having children or
a, or a romantic partnership even without children, that you are nonetheless.
Uh, expecting something.
things you've assumed are okay to expect.
Things that have you maybe you've been told are okay to expect.
So, yeah.
And then there's other things that you don't even know
you're expecting from somebody.
So, yeah.
I mean to, and are those things reasonable to clarify in my experience
when I'm with my kids, I'm not lonely when I'm with my friends.
That was my next question.
Yeah.
When I'm with my friends, I'm not lonely, and the last
month or two I've been really.
Uh, digging into my friendships and reconnecting with people and inviting
myself around to people's houses and having a cuppa and going for a walk.
And I've really been quite successful in re-energizing the friendships
that I have and even starting some new ones or, uh, turning, uh, old
connections into new friendships.
And I'm, I'm, I'm thriving with that stuff.
but to, to paint a broader context, I'm an only child and I've known.
Aloneness my whole life.
Mm-hmm.
And I've often maybe most of the time experienced that as loneliness.
And you know, you're from a pretty big family.
I don't think you could conceive of the amount of time I was alone.
Yeah, no.
As a small child.
Yeah.
You know?
No, that's right.
And I can tell you this for sure, that there were times when I was in
the family home with, you know, well at times, one other sibling, uh.
Well, you know, my living memories don't really go back.
Prior to having, you know, a sibling, I don't really remember being
an only child, but I kind of do.
I kind of do a little bit, but there was nearly always two or
three or four others around, plus one or two parents plus friends of.
Siblings plus neighborhood kids, like it felt like it was impossible to
get a moment to yourself, like, yeah, so you might prize solitude, do you?
Yeah, and that's right.
And when I was in boarding school as well, there were very few moments to yourself.
And I would go and seek them out.
You know, it's like, grab a book and climb a tree.
Like I know it is like such a cliche, but I did that many times.
Uh, leaving aside, hang on, you'd read the book in the tree?
Yeah.
Like if it was a nice, it was a nice day and we didn't have that much
time off from like school and chores and ritual, you know, religious
because it was a ha Krishna Yeah.
So boarding school for new listeners.
Yeah.
So it was, it was a thoroughly.
Religious institution through and through, but it also was fulfilling
its duty to like give us, you know, the Western curriculum in full, you know,
all audited by the state government.
'cause you have to, to get the funding right.
And.
When we went to high school, like a state school after this, after
a series of high schools, our academic standards were excellent.
Where there was a gap between us and our peers was just culturally and
like the kind of the way we talked and lots of things, but it was what I'm
painting of a picture of a childhood that was both idyllic at times.
Books in trees, always friends around, uh, and always lots to do.
Healthy physical activities, chores, et cetera, but also, uh, some
rough stuff that went on, right?
So the, and that some of this is covered in the earlier episodes,
corporal punishment and you know, the violence between students of
course, which a somewhat normal part of school in the eighties.
But I really treasured the time I had alone because there was nearly
always someone in the dorm room or like, you can't even have a shower
by yourself in boarding school.
'cause it's like you're doing it at the same time as everybody else.
And like just to read a fucking book by yourself was like.
A privilege and also like, um, you don't kind of don't wanna get
caught sitting around 'cause someone will find something for you to do.
Mm.
You know, like idle hands, the devil's work, et cetera.
Um, and then when at home from boarding school, yeah.
Again, there was nearly always kids around.
A lot was always noise.
And I would get a bit annoyed with it at times.
And what would I do?
so I've given you.
A character from pa, maybe an Enid Blyton book or Anne of Green
Gables up in a tree reading a book.
I'll give you a character from, uh, Jane Austen or Emily Bronte, uh,
or, you know, w Weathering Heights.
I would, uh, leave the house and sometimes no matter what the weather conditions and
go for a long ramble in the hills around.
The place.
Oh, wow.
That is very weathering heights.
Yeah.
And you know, maybe take a book and a snack with me and yeah.
This is solitude from a young age, solitude in a positive life.
Yeah.
I experienced it that way.
And then after a few hours of that, maybe half a day, maybe a whole day, I'd be
quite happy to go and have some company.
And I'd appreciate the company of those people again, who were just getting on my
nerves, you know, only a few hours before.
Mm.
See, I, yeah, as a, as an only child, I.
It just went deep into my imagination.
Yeah.
I can see you in your room reading ro dah.
Sure.
So Ro dah was my ultimate.
Well, he's pretty good.
Oh, he's unsurpassed.
Yeah.
As far as I'm concerned.
Yeah.
but yeah, reading ro dah, going deep into my imagin now,
my imagination was powerful.
Yeah.
And as a 45-year-old, it caused me, causes me a lot of problems.
Your imagination is powerful, but people take that as a positive, but it is not.
Exclusively a positive to have a powerful imagination.
Wow.
You powerful.
You can be plagued by dark thoughts and yeah.
A powerful imagination combined with bipolar disorder, uh, is
challenging to say the least.
But yeah, maybe I should have channeled it.
I tried to be a filmmaker.
Maybe I should have channeled it more.
Um, but I'm here talking to you, so you know, we're putting
something out into the world.
Yeah.
And, um, yeah, but I, so I, what I'm trying to say is by
the time I became an adult.
I never really wanted to be alone.
Yeah.
And, and I, when I got to know you, you're like sort of not long out
of the family home, maybe just a year in a share house or something.
You know, you're in the Bachelor of Creative Arts, you've got loads of
friends, you're very sort of man about campus, pretty, you know, engaged
with this, that, and the other.
Um, you know, doing stuff, projects and Yeah.
Playing sport and making things.
Yeah.
I had, I always had hundreds of friends.
Always and lots of occupations.
Yeah.
I had hundreds of friends.
I would pull people together to make films and Yeah.
Yeah.
I was always playing cricket and I, you know, I, that's how I dealt with
the fact that I didn't wanna be alone is to surround myself with hundreds
of friends, plus ideally a girlfriend.
Of course.
Yeah.
But see, back then, the girlfriend.
Thing was much less of a factor.
Mm.
Because there was just so much, there's so many house parties
every weekend and there's so much socializing during the week.
And I could pop around to another friend's house on a Sunday abo and
there'd be 10 people there, you know, uh, rehashing the night before Totally.
When you were an under, it was almost like, it was almost like,
it was great having a girlfriend.
And I, like, I lived with mine for most of my uni years, but it was also like.
Well, this can get a lit in the way a little bit of, yeah, there's so
much, and I, I don't mean of like spreading your wild o wild oats,
I just mean of just, just being absolutely rabidly social like I was.
Yeah, that's me too.
So that's turned into, oh, things got dark.
You know, we bought a house out in the suburbs and I became a
practicing alcoholic and yeah, I drank every night in isolation.
Even though I was surrounded by two kids and a partner, I drank
myself into isolation for years.
and I'm, I'm trying to rebuild my life.
I mean, 10 years, nearly 10 years without a drink, but I'm still trying to rebuild
that few years of isolation out in the suburbs and nearly 10 years without
like a long term committed relationship.
Like, yeah.
And yeah, nothing that's gone past six months.
Relationship wise in, uh, in 10 years.
So theory, in theory in this time, you've been rewired To
a large degree, I would say.
Yeah.
But I'm, what I'm saying is I need to accept Eckhart's quote, which
is I just need to completely make my peace with being on my own.
And then if I meet someone and that person can be a bonus, but
at the moment they'll still be.
A huge balm to this gaping wound of aloneness and loneliness that I have.
And that's not good.
'cause it creates clinging, the Buddhist would call it probably clinging.
Yes.
It creates attachment.
Yes.
Again, the Buddhist would probably use that phrase.
Yes.
And And it gives women the ick 'cause they're like, oh god, this
guy's so desperate, you know?
Well, I would say it didn't give you the ick when you encountered that in partners.
Yeah, sure.
I'm not, yeah, I'm not justifying it.
I'm saying I No, no, no.
I know you're not, but what I'm saying is what was your reaction to
having a partner that was like that?
Yeah, we all pushed them away.
Don't we always push the clingy ones away?
Um, yeah.
That's just a natural reaction.
But it was considered especially egregious in a bloke to be like that.
Yeah.
It was almost considered normal, I would say 20, 25 years ago,
the clingy girlfriend was almost like, that's what it is.
Yeah.
Well, if you think about Wayne's World, yeah.
I already broke up with you six months ago, Stacey.
Yeah.
I don't even own a gun, let alone many guns.
An entire Yeah, that would necessitate an entire gun rack.
It's a great, it's a great quote.
Oh no, it's Stacey.
She's pulling me in with her tractor beam.
Yeah.
That was the ultimate clingy girlfriend depiction in a nineties movie.
Um, yeah.
And every, we all thought it was funny, but I'm basically, and you know what, I've
Stacey, you, I've been Stacey since then.
I've always thought I was Wayne, but it turns out I was Stacey, bro.
You were Stacey all along.
Yeah.
And this, and this is the thing about, I'm not gonna say it's a misogynist trope,
but it was a little, and, but I don't think Mike Myers intended it that way.
I think it was just, he was just playing it for laughs.
Right?
Yeah.
Any, any darkness in that is, oh, please don't read into Wayne's World too much.
No, but what I will say is this.
That like all my experience of masculine projections about the
other gender when you're operating in a binary framework is it's nearly
always a reflection of your own shit.
Yeah.
And this is a classic example.
It's like, uh, yucky, the clingy girlfriend, but what I now know about
attachment theory and trauma and blah blah blah and all this stuff, and
or just Alan Bottons latest quote in the School of Life, you know?
On YouTube, he's sort of given up on doing videos.
He just puts text on there, which is fine.
It always, it just reads it in my head, in his voice anyway, and he was
making a great point on there about, you know, when you've had a difficult
childhood with attachment problems.
Option one, seek unavailable partners or intermittently available,
or people that are mean to you.
And option two, find a decent human being.
Uh, who cares for you genuinely?
And then drive them absolutely insane by being expert at finding fault with them.
And like, getting turned off by Yeah, pushing them away.
Pushing them away, making them feel like, what, where did it,
where did, where did I go wrong?
What's wrong with me?
Blah, blah, blah.
Until eventually they recover some perspective and are
like, it's not me, it's you.
I wish it were otherwise, but we have to call it a day because this isn't
good for me and it's not good for you.
Uh, it could have been.
You know, I hope you figure it out.
I've had that conversation a few times now.
Yeah.
And then option three, of course, which is explain to someone you
are getting close to or, but maybe even before you get close to them.
Hey, this is what I'm, like, I have a history of, you know, in my case I
chose, well, I chose a few partners over the years who were a little bit
unavailable and a little bit careless with my feelings, and I kind of didn't.
Didn't mind it in some ways because.
That did feel a little bit more comfortable than the girl who just looked
me in the eyes and be like, I like you.
I think you're a decent person.
I want to go.
And, and I'm just like, oh, yeah.
Terrible.
Terrifying.
Yeah.
Option three, explain your deficiencies.
Yeah.
And say maybe we can work through this.
I think he says in that quote, and I'll put it in the show notes, but
he, um, says, I have an illness.
I have an illness basically because my childhood was fucked up.
I push away anyone who's nice to me and I only go for unavailable people.
And what I wanna work on with you is this illness that I have, but
I'm really fucked up and yeah.
And I want to try that with the next person I meet.
For sure.
I wanna as a send them that little brief article as a really
conscious strategy of like.
There's no guarantees in life anyway.
Even if you're a relatively healthy person, attachment wise, relationships can
obviously still go wrong, but, and people can go into them without big attachment
wounds or whatever, but they might have expectations that just aren't realistic,
like, um, the amount of time that person's willing to spend hanging out or the amount
of the activities they're willing to do.
So sooner or later there's a negotiation.
Sooner or later you have to enter into like.
A conscious conversation about what sort of relationship you, you know,
is gonna work for both people.
So, you know, I think it's not a bad idea.
Trying to have that conversation sooner and explain your malfunctions if possible.
But first Sam, before I do any of that, I need to be completely
at peace with being on my own.
Okay.
So here's where I'd have a slight exception with the quote, right?
So I think it's important that you, yeah, I do tend to agree with the idea that we.
If we're trying to find wholeness or whatever, or like I'm.
Oh, okay.
So on one extreme of the spectrum, we can all agree it's absolutely
not okay to go like, oh, I'm fucked up and have a great big hole in my
life, and you are gonna fill it.
Right?
So that's, that's clear that that's, I've done that for 10 years.
Yeah, that's bad.
Doesn't work.
I've probably done that my whole adult life actually.
Yeah.
Same.
Exactly what was it?
I'm really fucked up.
There's a great big hole inside of me.
Yeah.
You are going to fill it.
Yeah.
It's like, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
That pretty much sums up my dating for 25 years, so we can agree that that's.
A not workable B, not the right thing to do to another human being.
Yeah.
But how to not do that at the moment feels very, uh, sure.
Challenging to say the least.
But what I wanna do is try and push you more towards the gray area
here, which is not the clearly, not the clearly out, right?
There's a lot of talk of green lights and orange lights and red lights,
which I think and flags, right?
And these things are good to have right?
People probably.
People do need to have red flags and orange flags, right?
And you need to have them.
We all need to have them.
But there's this gray area of like, okay, if you take that, this
doctrine about relationships really seriously, then you might end up
going to the other extreme, which is.
I must more or less be completely healthy and have no needs whatsoever.
And only then should I enter into a relationship, which is, well, the way,
which is a bit too far the other way.
Right?
The way Eckhart Toll writes and things.
Yeah, that's exactly what he would say.
Yeah.
I think there's a level of sort of like he is a very much a basically everything.
All your suffering needs to be serving your awakening into the present moment.
A full awakening, spiritual awakening.
And, and sure, I can, I can get to that.
Okay, sure.
Everything that happens to you needs to be serving your awakening.
And if it's not, you know, then you're fucking it up basically.
And he's very, he's very black.
Well, maybe that's why I keep rereading him 'cause he's so black
and white and so I know everything.
Plus I know all these theories that I can't prove, and I'm just
gonna claim that they're true and.
I that appeals to me.
You know, I think that's fine, but I think we need to sort of identify
an area which is that Okay, two things can be true at the same time.
The first one being that we need to be able to supply our own sort of
basic needs to some degree, right?
And not require a ton of maintenance from others.
Right.
But I can kind of agree with that.
But what's the line between having sort of no requirements that you
could or would place on anybody else?
And the kind of normal human experience of like having interrelated needs and
obligations and so on, which is what we normally encounter in friendships and,
and working relationships and uh, and family relationships and all of it, right?
So it seems to me he's creating a bit of a platonic spiritual ideal here,
which is like cool and everything.
How well it serves as a viable model.
Maybe it's an, it's an ideal or an aspiration to keep in mind, but
what's the messy gray area of like acceptable in Betweenness here?
So, for example, if a person such me, for example, I believe that I have
a level of emotional generosity that I've always had and getting older and
having more resources, more wisdom, more patience, I think with others and myself.
I don't think I need a partner to be, to have no emotional
needs, to have no blind spots.
I don't, I don't think I need them to not need me at all.
I think a little is, you know.
Okay.
So what extent is, okay, so do you know what that makes me think of?
Yeah.
Um, Chelsea Hotel, Leonard Cohen, and I need you.
I don't need you all that.
Driving around.
Yeah.
You know, we never did say, I need you, I don't need you, and all that.
Driving around it's like, yeah, I can be so needy.
It's like I am needy at, at the moment I don't have a partner, but
the moment I get one, like all of the emotional stuff that I try and process.
On my own or with friends, I'll then immediately want to
try and process it with them.
Hmm.
And, uh, a friend, a male friend of mine, but then you turn
around and wanna watch the test.
Yeah.
Then I just want to check, once I've done all my processing, then I want
to check out and watch live sport.
Yeah.
Um mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Anyway, and I, I tend to find women that are wonderful, really wonderful
to talk to, like about deep stuff.
Yeah.
Like in fact, for sure.
You know, I remember I was briefly dating a Japanese woman.
And there was just no depth to the conversation.
And it, it didn't last long at all.
And I don't, I don't know the exact reason, but she didn't want to
get into any deep conversations.
Okay.
So it wa it wasn't a lack of vocab or fluency or anything like that?
No, no.
Not at all.
Just a cultural difference about what you talk about?
Uh, I mean, it's surely that's the kind of thing that might
change over a, over a long period.
Also, I think that it's possible to mistake the kind of, when you, when
people like you and me, we can gain.
We can experience like a level of emotional intimacy
with people like quite, yeah.
Quickly.
And I think there's something to be said for taking your time with that as well.
Yeah, you're right.
Like, sorry, I mean to explain she was reserved and I didn't know how to,
like basically I want to have a really intense first date with someone where
they start to tell me all their trauma.
And just go from there.
Yeah.
And just trauma dump.
Sure.
And like get into the full on childhood shit and Yeah, me too.
I would tend to go with that.
Yeah.
So when I come across someone who's say physically attractive, but doesn't
want to go deep in conversation, I can't, it just doesn't last long.
I want to confide in someone and have them confide in me.
What did she wanna talk about?
I'm curious.
Not much.
It was very shallow, superficial, like.
Conversation.
Was she a designer or something?
Was she a Uh, I can't even remember.
It was only a couple of dates.
I think I remember you mentioning them.
She had a wonderful fashion sense and looked amazing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I was like, wow.
Like you are like the best dressed woman I've ever gone on a date with.
Amazing.
But then we'd go to talk and there'd be nothing.
Yeah.
That is rough.
Yeah.
Um, but it was just an example of, I, I, I tell myself I'm shallow.
But actually when presented with a really attractive woman who doesn't
have much to say on a date, Shani did.
Yeah.
I'm not that shallow.
I'm actually not.
Yeah.
Well, to make a joke, Shani is only skin deep.
Yeah.
Something like that.
Like look.
Mic shall only go so far.
Yeah.
So, so in the last 10 years, because when you're having the heart to heart
right, and you really like swapping stories and you know, the, everything's
making, everything you're saying is landing and everything they're
saying is landing and everything they say, like they, they understand.
They get what I'm saying.
I get what they, it's, it's a wonderful thing and a per a person with like,
Who's, you know, well, shy of the 10 suddenly seems intensely hot.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Like it, it, it is like a huge, and I know that it's definitely assisted to lift
my score in the past, and, and I don't mean to talk about, by the way, shout
out to Lou, pointing out quite rightly that there was a level of commodified
language going on in the the attraction episode, which is exactly right now.
I felt like I was doing that quite consciously in.
A sort of ironic way.
Yeah, ironic.
Like I'm, I'm acknowledging that you don't actually just
see people as numbers out of 10.
No, I see that.
I see them that way much less as time goes by, but it was never a
strong thing in me to begin with.
But also it was an, you know, the fact is we have to acknowledge that
there is a process that's been going on since at least Marks wrote about.
Economics and the human condition, which is the commodification of
human beings is like a process that's been entrained for quite some time.
And we are really on the pointy end of the commodification of human
people might have been rating other people out of 10 for attractiveness
since they could count to 10.
Sam.
They might have been doing it since then.
It doesn't mean you should do it.
No, no, I agree.
And that I think they've been doing it since the invention of marriage markets
like, which is a long, long thing.
What what I'm trying to say is I don't necessarily think that this.
Disposable and sort of ratings attitude towards other human
beings is necessarily a new thing.
I just think that the app, the app thing has turned what relationships were always,
to some degree marketized, but I think it's just brought it to an extreme.
Yeah, and and I think that one of the results of it.
Is part of what you are experiencing, and I wonder how much you are like
this was preexisting make, see, back in the day, I'd have meet someone great.
Have a deep conversation, hang out a few times, more and more.
Deep conversation, more and more hanging out, having a wonderful time.
Then it'd be like, all right, now we're gonna drive out in the ute.
We're gonna drive out to a salt lake and we're gonna drop some acid.
Yeah.
And then we'd go really deep on acid for like 10 hours on a salt lake.
Sure.
And then like, 'cause I was always trying to get as deep as possible.
Yeah.
To the next level, next level.
And yeah.
In my twenties when I could still take drugs, I would do that.
And then you'd have this incredible experience with someone Yeah.
Of like LSD connection and, um, yeah.
So that's the other thing is that there was always substances up
until I was 35 involved in the connection, whether it was, yeah.
Few glasses of.
Red wine or Sure.
Or Alice, big Alice d trip or whatever.
Well, weed that can, that can, yeah.
And so for the last 10 years, it hasn't been that.
Um, yeah.
And, but you are pretty good at getting to the, the like altered consciousness
anyway and like accessing the circuitry.
And I am too, and I can trip on sober conversations with people and like
really my head's doing fun things.
Right.
But, but what I've also learned is that I really, I really value.
Uh, feeling grounded around people and it's not, it's difficult for me to do
and people that can help me a little bit with that or that, where I find it
easier to stay grounded around them.
Do you, I value that.
Do you find these podcast conversations grounding?
Yeah.
How do you find the podcast conversation compared to the chat
we have before we do the show?
Which one's more grounding?
Uh, about the same because like one is more private.
Not that there's a ton we would say there, we wouldn't say here, but yeah.
Maybe to our, uh, detriment.
Yeah.
I'm probably, I'm probably, I'm interested in having less and less
stuff that I won't talk about.
So like, yeah, little by little, but when, but when it.
No, it's the same kind of thing because there's a ritual around it.
Like I'm no longer, yeah, I'm no longer setting up the gear.
I'm no longer like making tea or making sure the space is appropriate because
I find these chats extremely cathartic.
Yeah.
It's like the best version of a chat with a friend because I'm having to
think clearly 'cause I'm being recorded instead of my wooly like distracted and
I can't do anything else at the same time, like, yes, we're not on our phones.
It's ritualized, it's set aside.
It's a sacred space.
It's a lot closer to the therapy door than Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
You're right.
So he is grounding in that way.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
And so it, it greatly reduces my sense of loneliness.
Yes.
Um, yes, but like, yeah, exactly the irony.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, for me it makes me think of another of a Neil Young
Line from a song, well I had an Elis Morisset line, so perfect.
Which is, I'll do mine first, which is I need a crowd of people,
but I can't face him day to day.
Oh shit.
I thought I knew Neil pretty well, but, so that always resonated with
me and like I noticed at work.
Um, I was in a shared office with like 10 other people.
Mm-hmm.
And then this opportunity came up to get my own little office and I jumped at that.
And then they, yeah.
Um, I would've, I did it for a few months and I was isolated.
It's funny though, isn't it, with my childhood being an only child
and being so lonely, you'd think I'd always wanna be around people,
but other people are so annoying.
Yeah.
And I'm annoying and I become conscious of how I'm, and how I'm being
annoying and that gets on my nerves.
And then I did the few months in the shared office and then.
Sorry.
I did the, about a year in a share office, a few months in a
solo office and then back, went back to the floor two weeks ago.
They put me back in the shared office and the first day I could have like, did
they vic you from your private office?
I could've like tore my own hair out, just overhearing someone's
conversation that I didn't need to hear.
Noise canceling.
Oh, like.
I, but it's, I need a crowd of people, as in I'm not okay on my
own, but I can't face 'em day to day, as in people are so annoying.
Do you think, well, that is a great lyric.
What song is it from?
It it goes on to say, get Out Town.
Think.
Ah, get Out Town.
Oh, is it from like on the Beach or something?
Yeah, from On the Beach.
Yeah.
But I couldn't tell you the exact track.
Oh, I'm just glad I was able to guess the album.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That'll do me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's good.
Yeah, it's.
Okay.
So to give people context, Neil is a bit of a sense of introspective lad, isn't he?
Yeah, he is.
Yeah.
He's shaky as his biography with title.
He has, uh, what was his epilepsy?
He had epilepsy.
Yep.
Yeah, like some other people we know and he.
I think he spent a lot of time on his own and I, but as you
say, he was more comfortable around others while being alone.
And I know that, well, he also wrote the song, A Man Needs a Maid.
A Man Needs a Maid About, it's just someone to keep my house
clean, cook my meals, and go away.
Yeah.
Which is a real.
It's either a real head scratcher of a song that you've gotta do a bit of
work with, or it's just plain not cool.
But either way, it's really, it was the sixties, it was the six,
uh, early seventies, but yeah, no, I think that was sixties harvest.
No.
Harvest was like 72, wasn't it?
72, was it?
Yeah.
Okay.
Well anyways, but the point is Neil, he was married to Peggy for a long time.
They divorced only the last few years and.
I think he, put it this way, when I go down to Cafe Flow and sit with my
surface and get a bit of work done, or some just do a bit of riding or, or
just, just waste time on the internet in the company of others, I so happy.
I feel great.
I feel perfect like no needs.
But what?
But what about if you wake up in your bed and stay in your bed on your phone?
How do you feel then?
Awful.
Yeah.
I, I cannot do that.
Yeah.
So I need to have something in my calendar for that day, even if it's
drive to the beach, go for a walk.
Yeah.
I've started, if I wake up and there's nothing on my agenda, I spiral so quickly.
Okay.
My mental health just nose dives.
I, I don't, but I will say I have, I've done four, five
mornings on the phone for about.
10 to 20 the last few morning.
And I have gotten thoroughly annoyed with myself more enough to overcome
the compulsion and just, yeah, like, ugh, I'm pissing myself off right now.
'cause the truth is I don't have nothing to do.
Like, and maybe part of this is easier for me because I've got,
my children are a bit younger.
we both work a similar schedule.
I'm talking about Saturdays and Sundays only, but this is the thing on Saturday,
Saturdays and Sundays when I don't have my kids, so once a fortnight.
So on Saturdays and Sundays I've got like two usually too much to do and it
often involves being around other people.
So I get.
You know, like if there's sport or something like incidental
socialization there and then usually by the end of Saturday I'm like
very happy to be by myself and you know, and then see that phrase.
Very happy to be by myself.
Yeah.
I don't think I've ever uttered that.
I used to be like it a lot less.
I'll say that because.
Like I'd kind of in a way, wish the 20, my twenties never ended and the house
parties never stopped and Oh, I've, but ironic, ironically, back in the day I
was over the house parties and the drugs.
Yeah.
And decided to have it got boring a kid at 28, 29.
Yeah.
Decided to have a kid because I was like, yeah, I've seen this whole scene.
I was been repeated however many times.
I was bored with it by exactly the same age, but I persisted
for for a few more years.
Yeah.
You sat around a fire at a house party talking shit.
One time I was bored with it by 25.
Yeah, it got repetitive, but at least it was an option.
Now there's no option for a house party.
No.
We've discussed this before.
It's all dead and gone and there's, we've discussed whether on the show,
whether there was secret dinner parties we weren't getting invited to.
Probably not, but I'm convinced there's no secret dinner parties.
There's very few anyway.
And we put it this way the other day.
Right.
Someone suggest like, uh, I think it was my mate.
Benedict Sibley maybe, but he was like, oh, you know, we'll get you this little
science, art, art room table here.
Four chairs.
Perfect.
It's just enough you can, you know, you can put on a pot of soup, you know, you.
Some fresh, some good fresh bread.
You know, maybe a little dessert.
Dinner parties.
Doesn't have to be a big deal.
Sam, where's this?
In your apartment?
Yeah, just right here in the apartment.
Oh, yeah.
'cause that's, I was gonna ask you about that.
So you've got your own place now?
Mm-hmm.
How is it loneliness or solitude?
Solitude.
The only time it's loneliness is when.
There's something that'ss quite specific.
Usually that's troubling me.
Mm.
Like I've been put off by something.
Uh, and, or there's like a, you know, there's a, there's a little
something that needs dealing with, you know, with another person or there's
something I'm procrastinating, I'll feel lonely then sometimes interesting.
But basically the second I take action, it just disappears.
And then the other thing is, Sometimes when there's not a
particular thing to do or take action and whatever, then it can hit me.
Right?
But it doesn't hang around for that long, I find, um, although I have
jumped on the phone with people, um, and had some like, oh, phone chats.
Yeah, I've had some phones.
Old school.
Yeah, old school.
Bringing it back.
What do you just call 'em?
You text them first.
Maybe a text first.
Yeah.
You gotta do the text first these days, or they think it's an emergency, but
I ju No, but I just, I just do the ring and just hang up after a couple.
So it's like, it's not like no one's in hospital or anything.
It's just like, ring, ring, ring, ring, eh, hang up.
Yeah.
They'll get me if they, if they want, uh, I do, I just feel like I just
send the bat signal and people, people take it up about 70% of the time.
Yeah.
And when they don't, I don't find myself hanging.
I'm just like, yeah, it's cool.
Do you pace the apartment while you're on the phone?
Yeah, you gotta pace, right?
Gotta pace.
I'm a lunatic on the phone.
I was thinking though, if you were lonely, you could always just walk out
and just walk the length of High Street.
I do.
Yeah.
You see, do some people watching?
I do.
Which I, I could probably do in Footscray too, but I don't Yeah,
there's some good streets near you.
Yeah.
I could walk down Barkley Street.
There's always some interesting people, but I am antisocial.
Essentially.
I'm antisocial, but I need people.
This is why I always come to the conclusion that I
need an intimate partner.
City streets are great.
I, I would, I'm not happy in a, in the small town unless I've got places to
be where I know people are gonna be.
But in a big city like this.
I, I like to just walk around and be in the company of benevolent strangers.
I love the shit out of it.
I'm a townie through and these, yeah, I should probably go and sit in more
cafes and bro, it's the greatest.
Yeah.
Like, and, and just, you know, 'cause I, and I'd kind of prefer it to the
pub as well and where the pub feels like there's more of an expectation
to be outgoing and like all that.
And I don't always feel like it.
Like the job, my job takes a lot of my social energy.
This is the thing.
If I was doing an admin job instead or something, which in some ways
I would prefer, I would probably have quite a lot more latent.
Yeah, I do quite a lot of interaction at work with clients and at.
Yeah.
It's why I generally don't wanna record on a weeknight.
I wanna record on a Sunday when I've had a day off of social interaction.
Yeah.
And then I freshen up on a Sunday and I'm ready to talk.
But yeah.
Yeah.
You've had had to, tonight we're here on a weeknight because
we've, it's had to squeeze it in.
It's unusual.
Yeah.
Let, let us know whether the, the, the spiritual alignment of Joe
after work is satisfactory or not.
Listeners.
Yeah.
It's um, mm.
But see, I have, I'm no good in the mornings.
The first few hours of the day, I'm basically, oh no.
I love to be alone in the morning.
Yeah, yeah.
But I really look forward to no one bothering me, but I've lined it up, so
I often have clients at 9:00 AM Yeah.
And I, they help me.
They get me outta myself.
So, yeah, like my client this morning, we went for a kick of the footy and it get,
it got me outta my own shit, you know?
Um, and I've gotta say, people are good at getting you out of your own shit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Especially when their lives are usually harder than mine.
Yeah.
Um, big, big time, you know, so, and I can have a whinge about my life, which
is sort of appropriate for my job Yeah.
As a peer support worker.
Yeah.
Um, but then their whinge is usually often worse, so then I feel better.
Yes.
You know?
Yes.
Um, so yeah, I think it's, it's, um.
Yeah, that job is kind of, can be kind of therapeutic, but it
drains the other people do drain some energy outta me, of course.
And it's possible to feel socially drained and lonely at the same time.
I've definitely experienced that, but I will say within the context of, you know,
marriage and two kids and in the same house that I felt lonely there more often.
Um, but even then I was getting.
The, I was getting probably the writer, the writer, managed solitude.
Not usually too much loneliness.
And so, yeah, I mean, I lived, I've lived on my own for 10 years.
so none of those women I've dated in the last 10 years have I cohabitated with.
Yeah.
But the loneliest I've ever felt was.
Hm.
Um, while still married.
Yeah.
Partner and two kids and just drunk on the couch.
Yeah.
The worst like that I can.
And drunk on the couch every night.
Yeah.
That was the loneliest I've ever been.
Um, I'm less lonely than that now, even on a Sunday morning with nothing to do.
This was my question.
You know, obviously the Kris Christofferson song is, uh,
Chris Kristofferson's song Sunday Morning Coming Down is, it's a
profound song about loneliness.
Um.
And that one hit me hard when I, on Mondays in Geelong, when the pub was shut.
'cause I worked there six days a week and yeah, Mondays were weird
and I was sleeping alone in a big empty backpackers up top of the pub.
And yeah, my girlfriend was in India and you know.
Yeah, of course she was.
And I was around people all the time until suddenly total people drought
on Monday because it was new again, because it was not, of course she
was, and 'cause it was not my town.
I didn't really have, she was flitting through a market in Marrakesh to
quote you from the last episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Maybe somewhere in Tanger.
Yeah.
And you were writing a brilliant song to her and Yeah, I actually
did write some good ones Yeah.
In that time.
But, um, oh, not the, that's the perfect girlfriend is the
girlfriend who's not there.
Oh, of course the, the perfect object.
We talked about this with Dylan, but yeah, the, the, the, the
perfect object of, of projection.
And so this is what I'll say, right?
You're not struggling that much in terms of balancing the personal
needs and the needs of others, uh, and keeping things relatively tidy
in your friendships and so forth.
So I'm not seeing a whole lot of pathological behavior there, right?
So, so what I begin to think about is that this, this, I'm not sure.
Yes, there's a separate issue of like difficult feelings you experience
when alone that you find easier to palliate in the company of others.
Right.
So there's that.
It's nice to wake up in a bed and someone else's bare.
Yeah, it can be.
But that's all I'm saying.
Sure.
I get it.
And then, but then there's this other piece which is, so you are able to be.
Y you know, be around friends, it's, it's successful for the most part.
You're able to make plans, initiate plans, carry them out.
Um, you are not doing a thing, which a lot of people are doing apparently
at the moment, which is making plans and then flaking on them constantly.
You're not doing that, so sounds like anxiety.
It sounds like social anxiety, it's anxiety, it's a, it's
attachment stuff, I believe.
Which, and also just exhaustion as well.
Yeah.
The kids are posting on TikTok.
Yes.
I don't have to go to that thing that I had planned.
Right.
Yeah.
The joy of missing out.
Yeah.
But there's, there's also, part of it is if you haven't found, if you haven't
found it, if there's a lot, if you feel like it's work to be around others.
For like, even just for a so-called joyful social occasion, then may I suggest
your friends are expecting too much of you, or you are expecting too much of
yourself, or, but like I said, I've gone hard on re-energizing my friendships
because you're not experiencing that.
Right?
That's what I'm saying, that the, yeah, I've gone hard on
the last couple of months.
I've like, Hey, um, this game of football's on, I'm
gonna come to your house.
Uh, I'm gonna bring a bottle of Coke and just sit on your couch.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, and then the person is obviously hap
hopefully happy to hear from me.
Yeah.
Um, and then I go around and I find people alarming, like, um, oh, sure.
Like they've, they've been watching some crazy shit on YouTube and
they want to talk to me about it.
I'm like, whoa, this is really full on.
But I realized if you're gonna avoid all the people watching crazy shit on
YouTube, you're gonna have no friends.
Yes.
So I just, I, yes, I have to accept that people, and sometimes you are the crazy
person who's been watching crazy shit.
Yeah, that's right.
Or I banned myself from YouTube, but like, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I have to accept that.
People are gonna have their foibles and people are gonna have their
anxieties that they wanna share.
And that's part of friendship is you accept that rather than,
well, that person's weird.
I'm never gonna see them again.
Well, this brings me back full circle to how perfect and how splendidly happy
in your aloneness do you need to be?
This is the thing perfectly, according to Eckhart.
Yeah.
Well, so he's asking too much.
This is what I mean.
And then I think, and then on the other end of the.
Spectrum.
I think what might be troubling some of these younger people really feeling like
relief when a social occasion is canceled.
They might just genuinely be physically tired from, you know, having to work
two jobs just to fucking survive in this fucked up economy, but of society
rather that they might, I think that.
Uh, they might be feeling too much expectation to be like I often did, to be
like on and to be a certain version of me, like a shiny like together version of me.
And I think the only difference in wisdom really between 25 and 45 is that I don't.
I don't feel the need to be as shiny and as on, and I find it
easier to just be myself and be real and it's taken a long time.
Um, and that's it.
Yeah.
There were times I felt very lonely, even though I was the life of the party.
Like that kind of stuff doesn't hit me so much now.
But the quote I wanted to, to give you before the trade, you, the
Neil Trade, you Alanis for Neil.
All I need now is intellectual intercourse, a soul to
dig the hole much deeper.
Remember that one?
I've never heard that one, but Well, that was you with your like,
Hey, we've dated a few times now let's do acid on the salt flat.
Yeah.
You are like, you're like, girl, let's go deeper.
It's like, it's like the, it's the equivalent of like, let's get out the s
and m gear like on night five, you know?
Yeah.
It's like, well, we need to go further with this.
Do you think I need to change that slow, Sam?
No, not necessarily.
I don't think you're probably as pedal to the metal now as you would be.
Also like, 'cause I could be dating a very fashionable Japanese woman.
I know.
I mean, it did occur to me.
And also two years in, she might be like ready to go deep.
Yeah.
I could have waited.
Yeah.
It might be the long game with some people, you know, talking
cowboy hats, cowboy boots.
Do you know what, just miniskirts.
Maybe have a superficial girlfriend for six, 12 months.
Try it out.
Mm.
And then you never know.
'cause no one's actually superficial what I discovered.
Yeah.
I, I dated a couple of people that were.
I thought quite different.
To me, I thought they were like just sort of, you know, they liked partying,
they liked costumes and outfits and stuff, and I liked that that stuff too.
So, hey, let's hang out.
But I assumed that I was like the deeper soul with With more of the head.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that they were a little more superficial.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I didn't necessarily lack respect for them.
I'm not making it sound like I do, but the truth is I was
just like, oh no, no, no, no.
Their skills and preferences and abilities are like in a slightly different area.
And they were really good at like this one girl in particular, for example,
was really good at making costumes and like yeah, she was very intelligent.
So fashion, fashion type people.
Yeah.
And she was very intelligent.
Um.
But we just weren't necessarily interested in some of the same conversations.
But you know what?
We actually got along quite well.
But then what I did find out is no, no, no, no.
I wasn't The deeper soul.
No one's a deeper soul than anyone else.
Like everybody's got the same basic needs.
Maybe people are better at accessing it or expressing it.
Yes.
But like, you know, some people are more comfortable in that chat, but
a lot of the time what can sound deep might actually in fact be.
Be shallower than, than it's, you know, than it seems.
But maybe there's nothing wrong with that approach anyway.
And like, see, see how it goes.
But, but what you were saying before about friends and like sometimes people
need to express anxieties and like.
Uh, be weird and, and you just gotta accept it.
Yeah.
I'm like, sounds like you're ready for a relationship, Joe.
Well, that the problem is they express their anxieties and then that triggers
my anxiety, and then I have to go talk to chat GPT about it, to calm the fuck down.
Okay.
And obviously I, so then I'm hanging out with a friend, but I'm talking
to chat GPT just to calm down.
Well, obviously I can't just give you some useless advice.
Dismissive advice, which is Well try not to make their feelings about you.
Yeah, yeah.
For starters, and like sometimes it's trauma dumping, but.
If you know how to contain it, right, it doesn't hit you the same way
and like, that's a sort of skill.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I could never be a, um, a therapist.
Well, you know, maybe, maybe because like I get triggered and then I'm
completely distracted once I'm triggered.
No.
Well, the reason I look, it's going really well.
The friends thing is going really well.
Yeah.
Maybe what you're saying is I could approach meeting a new partner, like I'm
approaching these friendships Exactly.
Of like, let's, let's hang out, let's Yeah.
Get to know each other, you know?
Yeah.
I think the number one thing, I don't think you lack the
skills, the disposition, the, the generosity of spirit, any of that.
I think you are eminently, uh, like outfitted with the necessary things.
Like you've, you know, you, I think you're willing to invest.
And you don't, you're not, you, you recognize that you're not just here
to get something and, and you're capable of being honest with, you
know, with yourself about most things.
In other words, you've actually got a lot of stuff that many people would
wish for and that maybe they don't, haven't always had with a partner.
And, but, but here's the thing.
I just think the only, it's like, oh, but, but when it's a romantic, it's
all different and it all fucks up.
Right?
But I think it's coming out of like.
Treating it like a different thing because what I always find when we're
talking about, you know, intimate relationships and friendships,
like often having, discussing them separately, I often find myself going,
I think that's true for intimate, like for sexual relationships too.
Or we're talking about sexual relationships.
I often find myself going, I think that's true for friendships as
well, and, and I've realized that like for example, my attachment.
Trauma that has, I've realized that 46 has fucking massively impacted my life.
Mm.
And has left some serious, we did an episode on Attachment Sam,
but I still don't understand it.
Well, we need to go.
I don't, as my friend go back around as a friend of the show,
Liv said, attachment's great, but what the fuck do you do about it?
Yeah.
Well, she's absolutely right.
Like, it's great to know that I've got anxious, avoid attachment, but
what's the practical next step?
And I'll be like, oh, but it's uh, shit, I don't know.
Well, it's.
It's the, the next practical step is you, you have sort of, you have a
combination of cognitive and physical behavioral strategies for, recognizing
ahead of time, reducing, minimizing where they can't be avoided, et cetera.
And.
Uh, the ability to have actual conversations because you don't experience
terror as much and the, you know, some self-awareness, the ability to explain
yourself, so that behavior that can be mystifying, hurtful, puzzling to
others, you can actually account for it to some degree and better at avoiding
it and also better at when I feel the.
To withdraw that, I'm able to do it kindly rather than just all of
a sudden and just disappear and Oh, I've done that so many times.
Yeah, totally.
Just vanishing on people.
I'm out and I was, I need to talk to you.
I now no longer feel anything for you, even though Totally.
I was saying all those things like, and I was never running off with someone else.
I was just running off and it was brutal.
No, I never ran off with someone else either.
No, no.
Like, like I was like, I need to be with no one right now.
I woke up at 4:00 AM and realized I felt nothing for you.
Pretty much despite that deep month we just had together.
I've realized that you are a human being with needs that aren't so different
to mine, and I find that intolerable.
Yeah, it was just brutal.
But you know what I realized, what I was trying to go with this
earlier was I found that these things happened in friendships too.
And so what I'm saying is some of the same problems, in fact all the
same stuff, impact relationships and friendships equally, if we're not
treating them as different things and like I think we're creating too much of
a compartmentalization in the culture.
Okay.
But also in your own mind, so what you just said earlier is Right,
approaching these things the same way.
Yeah.
Because you don't know.
Ultimately, whether it's a friendship or it's gonna be something more intimate
like also, or it can be a friendship with a sexual dimension, and That's correct.
A relationship or That's right.
Or it's a, or it's a friend, or it's a friendship that can
sometimes catch you unawares.
And then I'm including with people that I'm not sexually attracted to
where all, there can be moments of like extraordinary intimacy that you haven't
experienced necessarily with a partner.
So it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, like.
I think creating separations between these things is a bit unhelpful.
Right.
So we need to wrap it up, Sam.
Yeah.
But what you're saying is you don't really love the Eckhart quote.
It's a bit No, I like it.
It's a bit too absolute for you.
No, I think it's right.
I just think beware of like drawing the wrong conclusion that we have to be
like islands of perfect self-sufficiency before we go anywhere near other people.
Yeah.
What it's made me reflect on is.
I've got all those coping strategies.
I am 45.
Yeah.
If I wake up on a Sunday and I dunno what to do, I drive to the beach and go for a
walk and I'm okay an hour later, you know?
So that's my, sounds good.
Um.
Yeah, that's my worst case scenario kind of thing, is that's how bad it gets is
I'm having a sad guy walk on Williamstown Beach and I'm sad and lonely, and then
get my heart rate up a little bit, get a few steps in and I'm feeling a bit better.
Next thing you know, that's my worst case.
That's the worst thing that ever happens to me.
Yeah.
Back in the day you'd be pacing for hours.
Yeah.
Maybe days, right?
I was the same.
I could find no refuge anywhere.
So I have the coping mechanisms, but I just don't wanna be coping all the time.
I want to be, yeah.
Not just surviving.
I wanna be thriving, Sam.
A hundred percent.
Well, if you have the fortune or misfortune to stumble into
another romantic relationship, can I suggest don't, yeah.
Don't immediately turn all the needs towards them.
In fact, consciously don't do that.
And it's like, yeah, when and when you're invited, like it sounds
like I could call you alone in your apartment and have a phone chat.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So when you are the thing you would like, Hey, okay, I am gonna get the
girlfriend to help me with this.
It's like, well, maybe she's not the right person anyway.
Yeah, yeah.
But also spread the load or she's a good enough person or the right
person, but not the only right person.
Yeah.
Spread the fucking load.
'cause also, but when you, I've experienced this before where I'm
like, a person has been really good at meeting my emotional needs.
But they're the main person doing that.
And then it's, oh, it's like, oh shit.
Now I'm depending far too much on this person.
And that creates a feeling of guilt and like, and guilt causes avoidance.
Like, you know, now you, no, it seems so much more obvious to
me than it did when I was 20.
Were, I mean, well, I was a hundred percent very much a wife guy,
you know, like all through, but.
Uh, then I'd be, I would alternate that with just like sudden
unexplained disappearances.
'cause I'm like, I just didn't understand when I needed to be
alone and I didn't understand that I would've been just as happy having
that conversation with somebody else.
And like I had my unconscious just had to like, get ahold of me and cause
me to be so uncomfortable before I would just act on that knowledge.
I dunno if I'd be like that now or not.
Honestly, I, I couldn't say, but I, I don't think I was necessarily
all that healthier than you when it came to relationships that there,
my solitude was fine, but when it came to relationships, I think just
a lot of the same anxieties really.
And so I think, yeah, I mean, I've kind of tended to date the
craziest, most unstable, most intense person I could find.
Mm.
Yeah, without naming names.
That was my early twenties and it was amazing.
Yeah.
Like the highs were so high.
Yeah.
And I've done it since and it's like what?
It's an addiction for me, like a substance.
And it's also someone who's still got some problems in their, like
serious problems in their twenties.
It's a way different prospect to someone who's still got some
serious problems in their forties.
You know what I'm saying?
Like it's, they've probably got like me coping strategies for those same problems.
Exactly.
So, so the person who was a bit nuts.
At 25 is probably quite fine now, but if they, if they're still super intense
at like, and up and down and all over the place at 45 in relationships,
it's like, it's a bit of a lookout.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'll remember that.
But having said that, maybe there's a wild Absolutely.
Uh, uncontainable person is even more dysfunctional in
relationships than you that.
Is the absolute right fit for you?
You never know.
It's, it's possible.
Alright, well I wanna go and find her, Sam, and let's just leave it there and um,
thanks for having me in your apartment.
You're welcome.
See you mate.
See ya.