WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.151 --> 00:00:02.581 hello, and welcome to the 10,000 Things. 00:00:02.911 --> 00:00:03.871 I'm Sam Ellis. 00:00:04.321 --> 00:00:07.441 I'm Joe Low Today on the show, another quote from. 00:00:07.936 --> 00:00:10.816 Eckhart from the power of now. 00:00:11.656 --> 00:00:15.496 If you cannot be at ease with yourself when you are alone, you will seek a 00:00:15.496 --> 00:00:17.836 relationship to cover up your unease. 00:00:18.376 --> 00:00:22.486 You can be sure that the unease will then reappear in some other form within 00:00:22.486 --> 00:00:26.896 the relationship, and you will probably hold your partner responsible for it. 00:00:28.036 --> 00:00:28.996 Hmm. 00:00:29.056 --> 00:00:32.656 So I wanted to, I read that when I was rereading for the hundredth 00:00:32.656 --> 00:00:35.656 time, the Power of Now, and I wanted. 00:00:35.731 --> 00:00:35.791 Mm. 00:00:36.691 --> 00:00:42.811 That to lead us into a broader discussion of what I'm calling solitude versus 00:00:42.841 --> 00:00:47.855 loneliness, Sam, you know, words, could you define solitude for our audience? 00:00:49.265 --> 00:00:49.505 Okay. 00:00:49.505 --> 00:00:55.325 My understanding is just the literal state of being alone. 00:00:56.045 --> 00:00:59.675 Versus loneliness, which is a description of a feeling. 00:01:00.245 --> 00:01:03.065 Isn't solitude, Ples kind of pleasurable? 00:01:03.245 --> 00:01:03.545 Yeah. 00:01:03.545 --> 00:01:07.235 So I was gonna say the, just the simplest denotation of the term 00:01:07.655 --> 00:01:13.325 is just that state of not being in company with others, right? 00:01:13.685 --> 00:01:23.940 But it has resonances or connotations such as an enjoyable peace and refuge or. 00:01:24.860 --> 00:01:27.980 Uh, you know, a quiet, a cottage on the mos, right? 00:01:27.980 --> 00:01:28.400 That's right. 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:31.820 You've gone away to the Dandenongs and you've got yourself an Airbnb 00:01:31.940 --> 00:01:34.370 and you're writing your novel and you're, you're writing your 00:01:34.370 --> 00:01:35.930 novel and the fire's crackling. 00:01:36.530 --> 00:01:37.520 That's solitude. 00:01:37.700 --> 00:01:37.820 Yes. 00:01:37.820 --> 00:01:42.410 As opposed to you wake up and it's a Sunday morning and you're completely 00:01:42.410 --> 00:01:45.980 on your own and you feel like no one cares and you can't reach anyone. 00:01:45.980 --> 00:01:46.250 Yeah. 00:01:46.340 --> 00:01:47.060 That's loneliness. 00:01:47.060 --> 00:01:51.170 So I do wanna talk about the context is I'm completely alone at the 00:01:51.170 --> 00:01:53.180 moment, as in I don't have a partner. 00:01:53.915 --> 00:01:55.355 And that quote Yeah. 00:01:55.355 --> 00:02:00.725 Is saying, if I can't be okay, if I can't turn my loneliness into solitude, 00:02:01.385 --> 00:02:06.485 then there's no point even looking for a partner because I'll just be trying to 00:02:06.485 --> 00:02:11.675 cover up the cracks of my loneliness and then they'll, the cracks will come through 00:02:11.675 --> 00:02:13.085 and they'll ruin that relationship. 00:02:13.085 --> 00:02:16.445 So what I'm saying, what I'm asking you Sam, is can you help 00:02:16.445 --> 00:02:18.875 me find a way to solitude that is. 00:02:19.505 --> 00:02:23.675 You know, bearable before, while I'm in this interregnum period. 00:02:23.885 --> 00:02:28.655 In between relationships, can I make peace with being on my own? 00:02:28.865 --> 00:02:29.315 There you go. 00:02:29.315 --> 00:02:30.305 That's what I'm throwing out there. 00:02:30.395 --> 00:02:30.755 Great. 00:02:30.785 --> 00:02:35.945 Just a small task, and of course, eminently achievable in the next hour. 00:02:36.245 --> 00:02:37.655 So we can do it. 00:02:37.865 --> 00:02:38.405 We can do it. 00:02:38.945 --> 00:02:40.925 Well, what I'll say is this, how much do you. 00:02:41.825 --> 00:02:45.395 Well, how seriously do you take the, the quote in the first place, as you 00:02:45.395 --> 00:02:47.795 know, does it reflect reality entirely? 00:02:47.855 --> 00:02:48.335 You think? 00:02:48.845 --> 00:02:53.375 Uh, I tend to, with things that I'm reading that's nonfiction, 00:02:53.525 --> 00:02:55.355 spiritual kind of texts, yeah. 00:02:55.355 --> 00:03:01.055 I tend to, um, treat them as if they know exactly what they're talking about. 00:03:01.625 --> 00:03:04.835 And when I had a therapist, the therapist would say, I really wish you'd take 00:03:04.835 --> 00:03:07.400 what I was saying a bit more with a grain of salt, because I would just. 00:03:08.135 --> 00:03:10.415 Make out like she was a hundred percent correct. 00:03:10.745 --> 00:03:14.375 So I'm probably the opposite of you probably is quite critical, but I 00:03:14.675 --> 00:03:18.402 just swallowed that quote whole and the broader book about the power of 00:03:18.402 --> 00:03:21.342 now, about the per the importance of being in the present moment. 00:03:21.342 --> 00:03:25.062 I really swallow it quite whole and agree with it all. 00:03:25.212 --> 00:03:27.672 Well, I think there's a ton of stuff in that book that I think 00:03:27.672 --> 00:03:30.342 there's a ton of stuff in that book that rises to the level of. 00:03:30.972 --> 00:03:34.122 At least, you know, true enough for working purposes, right? 00:03:34.122 --> 00:03:34.182 Yeah. 00:03:34.182 --> 00:03:36.732 So, you know, we can take statements provisionally. 00:03:36.972 --> 00:03:41.412 We don't have to hold them to be true now and forever, but what we can do is 00:03:41.412 --> 00:03:46.092 recognize that something has resonated with us and that it appears truthful, 00:03:46.092 --> 00:03:51.072 that it appears to like fit with our experience, which is the, you know, 00:03:51.072 --> 00:03:52.752 to, to some degree the best we can do. 00:03:52.962 --> 00:03:53.382 Personally. 00:03:53.382 --> 00:03:57.042 I do believe there is something resembling an objective reality out there, right? 00:03:57.177 --> 00:04:01.707 But what we tend to experience it through language and through sensory perception 00:04:01.707 --> 00:04:05.847 and that sort of thing, which all of which have been all demonstrated countless 00:04:05.847 --> 00:04:07.647 times to be somewhat unreliable things. 00:04:07.647 --> 00:04:07.947 Right? 00:04:08.007 --> 00:04:11.847 And one of the unreliable feelings we have is loneliness, 00:04:11.937 --> 00:04:14.397 but it is a marker of something. 00:04:14.457 --> 00:04:15.747 It points to something. 00:04:16.407 --> 00:04:18.477 And so I, I'm pretty satisfied with the quote. 00:04:18.477 --> 00:04:20.457 I, I do feel that. 00:04:21.552 --> 00:04:28.392 If you get into, well, even for that matter, a friendship or having children or 00:04:28.392 --> 00:04:33.252 a, or a romantic partnership even without children, that you are nonetheless. 00:04:34.377 --> 00:04:35.967 Uh, expecting something. 00:04:36.155 --> 00:04:39.515 things you've assumed are okay to expect. 00:04:39.785 --> 00:04:42.605 Things that have you maybe you've been told are okay to expect. 00:04:42.605 --> 00:04:42.845 So, yeah. 00:04:42.845 --> 00:04:45.005 And then there's other things that you don't even know 00:04:45.005 --> 00:04:46.445 you're expecting from somebody. 00:04:46.475 --> 00:04:46.955 So, yeah. 00:04:46.955 --> 00:04:50.255 I mean to, and are those things reasonable to clarify in my experience 00:04:50.255 --> 00:04:54.125 when I'm with my kids, I'm not lonely when I'm with my friends. 00:04:54.125 --> 00:04:55.205 That was my next question. 00:04:55.205 --> 00:04:55.325 Yeah. 00:04:55.325 --> 00:04:57.365 When I'm with my friends, I'm not lonely, and the last 00:04:57.365 --> 00:04:58.535 month or two I've been really. 00:04:59.105 --> 00:05:02.885 Uh, digging into my friendships and reconnecting with people and inviting 00:05:02.885 --> 00:05:06.185 myself around to people's houses and having a cuppa and going for a walk. 00:05:06.185 --> 00:05:10.895 And I've really been quite successful in re-energizing the friendships 00:05:10.895 --> 00:05:16.535 that I have and even starting some new ones or, uh, turning, uh, old 00:05:16.565 --> 00:05:18.185 connections into new friendships. 00:05:18.185 --> 00:05:20.915 And I'm, I'm, I'm thriving with that stuff. 00:05:21.107 --> 00:05:27.047 but to, to paint a broader context, I'm an only child and I've known. 00:05:27.557 --> 00:05:29.297 Aloneness my whole life. 00:05:29.747 --> 00:05:29.987 Mm-hmm. 00:05:30.137 --> 00:05:34.877 And I've often maybe most of the time experienced that as loneliness. 00:05:35.687 --> 00:05:38.567 And you know, you're from a pretty big family. 00:05:38.567 --> 00:05:41.717 I don't think you could conceive of the amount of time I was alone. 00:05:41.957 --> 00:05:42.587 Yeah, no. 00:05:42.737 --> 00:05:43.907 As a small child. 00:05:43.967 --> 00:05:44.537 Yeah. 00:05:44.537 --> 00:05:44.557 You know? 00:05:44.597 --> 00:05:45.407 No, that's right. 00:05:45.407 --> 00:05:48.017 And I can tell you this for sure, that there were times when I was in 00:05:48.017 --> 00:05:52.607 the family home with, you know, well at times, one other sibling, uh. 00:05:52.982 --> 00:05:55.352 Well, you know, my living memories don't really go back. 00:05:55.352 --> 00:05:58.232 Prior to having, you know, a sibling, I don't really remember being 00:05:58.232 --> 00:06:00.482 an only child, but I kind of do. 00:06:00.482 --> 00:06:04.682 I kind of do a little bit, but there was nearly always two or 00:06:04.682 --> 00:06:11.522 three or four others around, plus one or two parents plus friends of. 00:06:12.137 --> 00:06:17.657 Siblings plus neighborhood kids, like it felt like it was impossible to 00:06:17.657 --> 00:06:21.587 get a moment to yourself, like, yeah, so you might prize solitude, do you? 00:06:21.677 --> 00:06:22.997 Yeah, and that's right. 00:06:22.997 --> 00:06:27.827 And when I was in boarding school as well, there were very few moments to yourself. 00:06:28.397 --> 00:06:30.227 And I would go and seek them out. 00:06:30.437 --> 00:06:32.627 You know, it's like, grab a book and climb a tree. 00:06:32.627 --> 00:06:35.747 Like I know it is like such a cliche, but I did that many times. 00:06:36.287 --> 00:06:40.367 Uh, leaving aside, hang on, you'd read the book in the tree? 00:06:40.697 --> 00:06:41.057 Yeah. 00:06:41.147 --> 00:06:46.277 Like if it was a nice, it was a nice day and we didn't have that much 00:06:46.307 --> 00:06:51.497 time off from like school and chores and ritual, you know, religious 00:06:51.497 --> 00:06:53.147 because it was a ha Krishna Yeah. 00:06:53.267 --> 00:06:54.917 So boarding school for new listeners. 00:06:54.977 --> 00:06:55.217 Yeah. 00:06:55.217 --> 00:06:56.837 So it was, it was a thoroughly. 00:06:57.422 --> 00:07:02.642 Religious institution through and through, but it also was fulfilling 00:07:02.642 --> 00:07:06.932 its duty to like give us, you know, the Western curriculum in full, you know, 00:07:07.532 --> 00:07:09.092 all audited by the state government. 00:07:09.152 --> 00:07:10.742 'cause you have to, to get the funding right. 00:07:11.162 --> 00:07:11.642 And. 00:07:12.182 --> 00:07:15.662 When we went to high school, like a state school after this, after 00:07:15.662 --> 00:07:19.142 a series of high schools, our academic standards were excellent. 00:07:19.412 --> 00:07:22.922 Where there was a gap between us and our peers was just culturally and 00:07:22.922 --> 00:07:27.692 like the kind of the way we talked and lots of things, but it was what I'm 00:07:27.812 --> 00:07:32.972 painting of a picture of a childhood that was both idyllic at times. 00:07:33.242 --> 00:07:38.642 Books in trees, always friends around, uh, and always lots to do. 00:07:39.527 --> 00:07:45.077 Healthy physical activities, chores, et cetera, but also, uh, some 00:07:45.077 --> 00:07:46.637 rough stuff that went on, right? 00:07:46.637 --> 00:07:49.457 So the, and that some of this is covered in the earlier episodes, 00:07:49.727 --> 00:07:53.537 corporal punishment and you know, the violence between students of 00:07:53.537 --> 00:07:56.297 course, which a somewhat normal part of school in the eighties. 00:07:56.630 --> 00:08:01.220 But I really treasured the time I had alone because there was nearly 00:08:01.220 --> 00:08:04.670 always someone in the dorm room or like, you can't even have a shower 00:08:04.670 --> 00:08:05.990 by yourself in boarding school. 00:08:06.020 --> 00:08:08.600 'cause it's like you're doing it at the same time as everybody else. 00:08:09.110 --> 00:08:13.200 And like just to read a fucking book by yourself was like. 00:08:13.940 --> 00:08:19.190 A privilege and also like, um, you don't kind of don't wanna get 00:08:19.190 --> 00:08:22.790 caught sitting around 'cause someone will find something for you to do. 00:08:22.820 --> 00:08:22.850 Mm. 00:08:23.030 --> 00:08:26.300 You know, like idle hands, the devil's work, et cetera. 00:08:26.630 --> 00:08:30.230 Um, and then when at home from boarding school, yeah. 00:08:30.230 --> 00:08:31.820 Again, there was nearly always kids around. 00:08:31.820 --> 00:08:32.990 A lot was always noise. 00:08:33.740 --> 00:08:35.870 And I would get a bit annoyed with it at times. 00:08:35.870 --> 00:08:36.740 And what would I do? 00:08:37.373 --> 00:08:38.333 so I've given you. 00:08:39.413 --> 00:08:42.323 A character from pa, maybe an Enid Blyton book or Anne of Green 00:08:42.323 --> 00:08:44.183 Gables up in a tree reading a book. 00:08:44.183 --> 00:08:50.093 I'll give you a character from, uh, Jane Austen or Emily Bronte, uh, 00:08:50.153 --> 00:08:52.433 or, you know, w Weathering Heights. 00:08:52.493 --> 00:08:57.323 I would, uh, leave the house and sometimes no matter what the weather conditions and 00:08:57.323 --> 00:09:00.023 go for a long ramble in the hills around. 00:09:00.458 --> 00:09:01.118 The place. 00:09:01.178 --> 00:09:01.658 Oh, wow. 00:09:01.658 --> 00:09:03.068 That is very weathering heights. 00:09:03.188 --> 00:09:03.818 Yeah. 00:09:03.818 --> 00:09:06.938 And you know, maybe take a book and a snack with me and yeah. 00:09:06.938 --> 00:09:10.538 This is solitude from a young age, solitude in a positive life. 00:09:10.868 --> 00:09:11.258 Yeah. 00:09:11.258 --> 00:09:12.368 I experienced it that way. 00:09:12.368 --> 00:09:17.708 And then after a few hours of that, maybe half a day, maybe a whole day, I'd be 00:09:17.828 --> 00:09:19.538 quite happy to go and have some company. 00:09:19.538 --> 00:09:23.258 And I'd appreciate the company of those people again, who were just getting on my 00:09:23.258 --> 00:09:25.358 nerves, you know, only a few hours before. 00:09:26.288 --> 00:09:26.318 Mm. 00:09:26.348 --> 00:09:29.588 See, I, yeah, as a, as an only child, I. 00:09:29.663 --> 00:09:32.393 It just went deep into my imagination. 00:09:32.538 --> 00:09:32.828 Yeah. 00:09:32.833 --> 00:09:33.053 Yeah. 00:09:33.053 --> 00:09:35.813 I can see you in your room reading ro dah. 00:09:36.473 --> 00:09:36.923 Sure. 00:09:36.953 --> 00:09:38.453 So Ro dah was my ultimate. 00:09:39.143 --> 00:09:40.223 Well, he's pretty good. 00:09:41.093 --> 00:09:42.383 Oh, he's unsurpassed. 00:09:42.503 --> 00:09:42.833 Yeah. 00:09:42.833 --> 00:09:44.003 As far as I'm concerned. 00:09:44.063 --> 00:09:44.453 Yeah. 00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:47.640 but yeah, reading ro dah, going deep into my imagin now, 00:09:47.640 --> 00:09:49.770 my imagination was powerful. 00:09:50.190 --> 00:09:50.520 Yeah. 00:09:50.520 --> 00:09:53.820 And as a 45-year-old, it caused me, causes me a lot of problems. 00:09:53.820 --> 00:09:57.315 Your imagination is powerful, but people take that as a positive, but it is not. 00:09:58.020 --> 00:10:00.145 Exclusively a positive to have a powerful imagination. 00:10:00.145 --> 00:10:00.345 Wow. 00:10:00.345 --> 00:10:00.745 You powerful. 00:10:00.745 --> 00:10:02.730 You can be plagued by dark thoughts and yeah. 00:10:02.730 --> 00:10:06.870 A powerful imagination combined with bipolar disorder, uh, is 00:10:06.870 --> 00:10:08.280 challenging to say the least. 00:10:08.280 --> 00:10:10.230 But yeah, maybe I should have channeled it. 00:10:10.290 --> 00:10:11.580 I tried to be a filmmaker. 00:10:11.700 --> 00:10:13.860 Maybe I should have channeled it more. 00:10:13.980 --> 00:10:16.860 Um, but I'm here talking to you, so you know, we're putting 00:10:16.860 --> 00:10:17.910 something out into the world. 00:10:18.180 --> 00:10:18.390 Yeah. 00:10:18.420 --> 00:10:23.040 And, um, yeah, but I, so I, what I'm trying to say is by 00:10:23.040 --> 00:10:24.270 the time I became an adult. 00:10:24.765 --> 00:10:26.925 I never really wanted to be alone. 00:10:27.165 --> 00:10:27.495 Yeah. 00:10:27.495 --> 00:10:31.575 And, and I, when I got to know you, you're like sort of not long out 00:10:31.575 --> 00:10:35.175 of the family home, maybe just a year in a share house or something. 00:10:35.655 --> 00:10:38.295 You know, you're in the Bachelor of Creative Arts, you've got loads of 00:10:38.295 --> 00:10:43.305 friends, you're very sort of man about campus, pretty, you know, engaged 00:10:43.305 --> 00:10:44.655 with this, that, and the other. 00:10:45.465 --> 00:10:48.585 Um, you know, doing stuff, projects and Yeah. 00:10:48.585 --> 00:10:50.835 Playing sport and making things. 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:51.040 Yeah. 00:10:51.585 --> 00:10:51.855 Yeah. 00:10:51.855 --> 00:10:53.535 I had, I always had hundreds of friends. 00:10:54.300 --> 00:10:56.220 Always and lots of occupations. 00:10:56.640 --> 00:10:57.180 Yeah. 00:10:57.180 --> 00:10:58.200 I had hundreds of friends. 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:00.765 I would pull people together to make films and Yeah. 00:11:01.230 --> 00:11:01.560 Yeah. 00:11:01.560 --> 00:11:05.820 I was always playing cricket and I, you know, I, that's how I dealt with 00:11:05.820 --> 00:11:09.660 the fact that I didn't wanna be alone is to surround myself with hundreds 00:11:09.660 --> 00:11:11.700 of friends, plus ideally a girlfriend. 00:11:12.330 --> 00:11:12.660 Of course. 00:11:12.660 --> 00:11:12.720 Yeah. 00:11:12.750 --> 00:11:14.430 But see, back then, the girlfriend. 00:11:15.150 --> 00:11:17.760 Thing was much less of a factor. 00:11:17.760 --> 00:11:17.790 Mm. 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.210 Because there was just so much, there's so many house parties 00:11:21.210 --> 00:11:23.910 every weekend and there's so much socializing during the week. 00:11:23.910 --> 00:11:27.270 And I could pop around to another friend's house on a Sunday abo and 00:11:27.270 --> 00:11:32.190 there'd be 10 people there, you know, uh, rehashing the night before Totally. 00:11:32.190 --> 00:11:35.820 When you were an under, it was almost like, it was almost like, 00:11:35.880 --> 00:11:37.320 it was great having a girlfriend. 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:41.670 And I, like, I lived with mine for most of my uni years, but it was also like. 00:11:42.030 --> 00:11:44.790 Well, this can get a lit in the way a little bit of, yeah, there's so 00:11:45.215 --> 00:11:48.180 much, and I, I don't mean of like spreading your wild o wild oats, 00:11:48.180 --> 00:11:52.740 I just mean of just, just being absolutely rabidly social like I was. 00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:53.850 Yeah, that's me too. 00:11:53.850 --> 00:11:57.660 So that's turned into, oh, things got dark. 00:11:57.660 --> 00:12:00.480 You know, we bought a house out in the suburbs and I became a 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:05.040 practicing alcoholic and yeah, I drank every night in isolation. 00:12:05.040 --> 00:12:08.280 Even though I was surrounded by two kids and a partner, I drank 00:12:08.700 --> 00:12:10.890 myself into isolation for years. 00:12:11.233 --> 00:12:13.363 and I'm, I'm trying to rebuild my life. 00:12:13.423 --> 00:12:17.983 I mean, 10 years, nearly 10 years without a drink, but I'm still trying to rebuild 00:12:18.043 --> 00:12:21.973 that few years of isolation out in the suburbs and nearly 10 years without 00:12:21.973 --> 00:12:24.163 like a long term committed relationship. 00:12:24.163 --> 00:12:24.523 Like, yeah. 00:12:24.523 --> 00:12:26.923 And yeah, nothing that's gone past six months. 00:12:26.943 --> 00:12:30.123 Relationship wise in, uh, in 10 years. 00:12:30.123 --> 00:12:33.333 So theory, in theory in this time, you've been rewired To 00:12:33.333 --> 00:12:34.893 a large degree, I would say. 00:12:34.953 --> 00:12:35.133 Yeah. 00:12:35.133 --> 00:12:38.583 But I'm, what I'm saying is I need to accept Eckhart's quote, which 00:12:38.583 --> 00:12:41.973 is I just need to completely make my peace with being on my own. 00:12:41.973 --> 00:12:46.563 And then if I meet someone and that person can be a bonus, but 00:12:46.563 --> 00:12:48.303 at the moment they'll still be. 00:12:48.718 --> 00:12:54.028 A huge balm to this gaping wound of aloneness and loneliness that I have. 00:12:54.388 --> 00:12:55.258 And that's not good. 00:12:55.258 --> 00:12:59.128 'cause it creates clinging, the Buddhist would call it probably clinging. 00:12:59.278 --> 00:12:59.578 Yes. 00:12:59.578 --> 00:13:00.808 It creates attachment. 00:13:00.808 --> 00:13:01.228 Yes. 00:13:01.228 --> 00:13:03.208 Again, the Buddhist would probably use that phrase. 00:13:03.238 --> 00:13:03.628 Yes. 00:13:03.688 --> 00:13:07.228 And And it gives women the ick 'cause they're like, oh god, this 00:13:07.228 --> 00:13:08.968 guy's so desperate, you know? 00:13:08.998 --> 00:13:13.828 Well, I would say it didn't give you the ick when you encountered that in partners. 00:13:14.578 --> 00:13:15.148 Yeah, sure. 00:13:15.153 --> 00:13:17.488 I'm not, yeah, I'm not justifying it. 00:13:17.518 --> 00:13:18.658 I'm saying I No, no, no. 00:13:18.658 --> 00:13:20.938 I know you're not, but what I'm saying is what was your reaction to 00:13:20.938 --> 00:13:22.288 having a partner that was like that? 00:13:22.318 --> 00:13:23.668 Yeah, we all pushed them away. 00:13:23.668 --> 00:13:25.768 Don't we always push the clingy ones away? 00:13:25.978 --> 00:13:26.788 Um, yeah. 00:13:26.788 --> 00:13:27.928 That's just a natural reaction. 00:13:27.933 --> 00:13:31.768 But it was considered especially egregious in a bloke to be like that. 00:13:32.308 --> 00:13:32.578 Yeah. 00:13:32.578 --> 00:13:35.368 It was almost considered normal, I would say 20, 25 years ago, 00:13:35.368 --> 00:13:37.918 the clingy girlfriend was almost like, that's what it is. 00:13:38.428 --> 00:13:38.698 Yeah. 00:13:38.698 --> 00:13:41.338 Well, if you think about Wayne's World, yeah. 00:13:41.863 --> 00:13:43.633 I already broke up with you six months ago, Stacey. 00:13:43.903 --> 00:13:44.203 Yeah. 00:13:44.208 --> 00:13:44.448 Yeah. 00:13:44.773 --> 00:13:47.923 I don't even own a gun, let alone many guns. 00:13:47.923 --> 00:13:50.923 An entire Yeah, that would necessitate an entire gun rack. 00:13:50.923 --> 00:13:52.303 It's a great, it's a great quote. 00:13:52.603 --> 00:13:53.923 Oh no, it's Stacey. 00:13:53.923 --> 00:13:55.423 She's pulling me in with her tractor beam. 00:13:55.678 --> 00:13:55.968 Yeah. 00:13:55.973 --> 00:13:56.503 Yeah. 00:13:56.533 --> 00:13:59.893 That was the ultimate clingy girlfriend depiction in a nineties movie. 00:14:00.303 --> 00:14:01.053 Um, yeah. 00:14:01.053 --> 00:14:03.693 And every, we all thought it was funny, but I'm basically, and you know what, I've 00:14:03.693 --> 00:14:06.303 Stacey, you, I've been Stacey since then. 00:14:06.693 --> 00:14:09.988 I've always thought I was Wayne, but it turns out I was Stacey, bro. 00:14:09.993 --> 00:14:11.133 You were Stacey all along. 00:14:11.193 --> 00:14:11.283 Yeah. 00:14:11.283 --> 00:14:14.823 And this, and this is the thing about, I'm not gonna say it's a misogynist trope, 00:14:14.883 --> 00:14:19.203 but it was a little, and, but I don't think Mike Myers intended it that way. 00:14:19.203 --> 00:14:22.083 I think it was just, he was just playing it for laughs. 00:14:22.083 --> 00:14:22.533 Right? 00:14:22.623 --> 00:14:23.103 Yeah. 00:14:23.103 --> 00:14:26.403 Any, any darkness in that is, oh, please don't read into Wayne's World too much. 00:14:26.403 --> 00:14:27.663 No, but what I will say is this. 00:14:28.438 --> 00:14:34.648 That like all my experience of masculine projections about the 00:14:34.648 --> 00:14:38.998 other gender when you're operating in a binary framework is it's nearly 00:14:38.998 --> 00:14:40.558 always a reflection of your own shit. 00:14:40.708 --> 00:14:41.068 Yeah. 00:14:41.068 --> 00:14:42.628 And this is a classic example. 00:14:42.628 --> 00:14:47.188 It's like, uh, yucky, the clingy girlfriend, but what I now know about 00:14:47.188 --> 00:14:53.368 attachment theory and trauma and blah blah blah and all this stuff, and 00:14:53.368 --> 00:14:56.758 or just Alan Bottons latest quote in the School of Life, you know? 00:14:56.812 --> 00:14:58.582 On YouTube, he's sort of given up on doing videos. 00:14:58.582 --> 00:15:00.322 He just puts text on there, which is fine. 00:15:01.132 --> 00:15:04.162 It always, it just reads it in my head, in his voice anyway, and he was 00:15:04.162 --> 00:15:08.062 making a great point on there about, you know, when you've had a difficult 00:15:08.062 --> 00:15:09.532 childhood with attachment problems. 00:15:09.532 --> 00:15:14.842 Option one, seek unavailable partners or intermittently available, 00:15:14.842 --> 00:15:16.582 or people that are mean to you. 00:15:16.732 --> 00:15:20.891 And option two, find a decent human being. 00:15:21.281 --> 00:15:23.261 Uh, who cares for you genuinely? 00:15:23.381 --> 00:15:28.166 And then drive them absolutely insane by being expert at finding fault with them. 00:15:28.481 --> 00:15:30.521 And like, getting turned off by Yeah, pushing them away. 00:15:30.671 --> 00:15:33.881 Pushing them away, making them feel like, what, where did it, 00:15:33.881 --> 00:15:35.651 where did, where did I go wrong? 00:15:35.861 --> 00:15:36.821 What's wrong with me? 00:15:36.821 --> 00:15:37.451 Blah, blah, blah. 00:15:37.451 --> 00:15:39.551 Until eventually they recover some perspective and are 00:15:39.551 --> 00:15:41.351 like, it's not me, it's you. 00:15:42.041 --> 00:15:46.391 I wish it were otherwise, but we have to call it a day because this isn't 00:15:46.391 --> 00:15:47.921 good for me and it's not good for you. 00:15:48.341 --> 00:15:49.481 Uh, it could have been. 00:15:50.006 --> 00:15:51.446 You know, I hope you figure it out. 00:15:51.686 --> 00:15:53.276 I've had that conversation a few times now. 00:15:53.276 --> 00:15:53.636 Yeah. 00:15:53.726 --> 00:15:58.136 And then option three, of course, which is explain to someone you 00:15:58.136 --> 00:16:01.106 are getting close to or, but maybe even before you get close to them. 00:16:01.106 --> 00:16:07.526 Hey, this is what I'm, like, I have a history of, you know, in my case I 00:16:07.526 --> 00:16:12.296 chose, well, I chose a few partners over the years who were a little bit 00:16:12.296 --> 00:16:17.456 unavailable and a little bit careless with my feelings, and I kind of didn't. 00:16:17.771 --> 00:16:19.871 Didn't mind it in some ways because. 00:16:20.651 --> 00:16:24.581 That did feel a little bit more comfortable than the girl who just looked 00:16:24.581 --> 00:16:26.531 me in the eyes and be like, I like you. 00:16:26.531 --> 00:16:28.061 I think you're a decent person. 00:16:28.301 --> 00:16:28.721 I want to go. 00:16:28.721 --> 00:16:30.581 And, and I'm just like, oh, yeah. 00:16:30.641 --> 00:16:31.121 Terrible. 00:16:31.751 --> 00:16:32.351 Terrifying. 00:16:32.381 --> 00:16:32.711 Yeah. 00:16:32.771 --> 00:16:35.231 Option three, explain your deficiencies. 00:16:35.471 --> 00:16:35.531 Yeah. 00:16:35.531 --> 00:16:36.971 And say maybe we can work through this. 00:16:36.971 --> 00:16:39.731 I think he says in that quote, and I'll put it in the show notes, but 00:16:39.941 --> 00:16:41.616 he, um, says, I have an illness. 00:16:42.451 --> 00:16:45.661 I have an illness basically because my childhood was fucked up. 00:16:45.781 --> 00:16:49.561 I push away anyone who's nice to me and I only go for unavailable people. 00:16:49.561 --> 00:16:54.691 And what I wanna work on with you is this illness that I have, but 00:16:54.691 --> 00:16:56.131 I'm really fucked up and yeah. 00:16:56.131 --> 00:16:58.141 And I want to try that with the next person I meet. 00:16:58.141 --> 00:16:58.861 For sure. 00:16:59.011 --> 00:17:02.041 I wanna as a send them that little brief article as a really 00:17:02.041 --> 00:17:03.751 conscious strategy of like. 00:17:04.376 --> 00:17:06.176 There's no guarantees in life anyway. 00:17:06.176 --> 00:17:09.896 Even if you're a relatively healthy person, attachment wise, relationships can 00:17:09.896 --> 00:17:15.056 obviously still go wrong, but, and people can go into them without big attachment 00:17:15.056 --> 00:17:18.776 wounds or whatever, but they might have expectations that just aren't realistic, 00:17:18.776 --> 00:17:23.636 like, um, the amount of time that person's willing to spend hanging out or the amount 00:17:23.636 --> 00:17:24.956 of the activities they're willing to do. 00:17:25.226 --> 00:17:26.816 So sooner or later there's a negotiation. 00:17:26.816 --> 00:17:28.356 Sooner or later you have to enter into like. 00:17:28.916 --> 00:17:32.336 A conscious conversation about what sort of relationship you, you know, 00:17:32.336 --> 00:17:33.656 is gonna work for both people. 00:17:33.866 --> 00:17:36.296 So, you know, I think it's not a bad idea. 00:17:36.296 --> 00:17:40.616 Trying to have that conversation sooner and explain your malfunctions if possible. 00:17:40.676 --> 00:17:44.306 But first Sam, before I do any of that, I need to be completely 00:17:44.306 --> 00:17:45.536 at peace with being on my own. 00:17:45.866 --> 00:17:46.136 Okay. 00:17:46.136 --> 00:17:49.046 So here's where I'd have a slight exception with the quote, right? 00:17:49.106 --> 00:17:55.206 So I think it's important that you, yeah, I do tend to agree with the idea that we. 00:17:56.276 --> 00:18:00.296 If we're trying to find wholeness or whatever, or like I'm. 00:18:01.616 --> 00:18:01.946 Oh, okay. 00:18:02.036 --> 00:18:05.636 So on one extreme of the spectrum, we can all agree it's absolutely 00:18:05.636 --> 00:18:08.426 not okay to go like, oh, I'm fucked up and have a great big hole in my 00:18:08.426 --> 00:18:09.506 life, and you are gonna fill it. 00:18:09.506 --> 00:18:09.776 Right? 00:18:09.776 --> 00:18:12.356 So that's, that's clear that that's, I've done that for 10 years. 00:18:12.386 --> 00:18:13.466 Yeah, that's bad. 00:18:13.556 --> 00:18:13.976 Doesn't work. 00:18:14.156 --> 00:18:15.956 I've probably done that my whole adult life actually. 00:18:16.076 --> 00:18:16.376 Yeah. 00:18:16.826 --> 00:18:17.156 Yeah. 00:18:17.186 --> 00:18:17.666 Same. 00:18:17.896 --> 00:18:19.126 Exactly what was it? 00:18:19.126 --> 00:18:20.356 I'm really fucked up. 00:18:20.386 --> 00:18:22.006 There's a great big hole inside of me. 00:18:22.066 --> 00:18:22.186 Yeah. 00:18:22.426 --> 00:18:23.446 You are going to fill it. 00:18:23.776 --> 00:18:24.856 You are going to fill it. 00:18:24.861 --> 00:18:25.031 Yeah. 00:18:25.036 --> 00:18:25.336 Yeah. 00:18:25.336 --> 00:18:26.206 It's like, yeah. 00:18:26.206 --> 00:18:26.216 Yeah. 00:18:26.266 --> 00:18:26.716 Okay. 00:18:26.716 --> 00:18:30.526 That pretty much sums up my dating for 25 years, so we can agree that that's. 00:18:31.856 --> 00:18:35.516 A not workable B, not the right thing to do to another human being. 00:18:35.516 --> 00:18:35.636 Yeah. 00:18:35.636 --> 00:18:40.946 But how to not do that at the moment feels very, uh, sure. 00:18:41.366 --> 00:18:42.656 Challenging to say the least. 00:18:42.656 --> 00:18:45.596 But what I wanna do is try and push you more towards the gray area 00:18:45.596 --> 00:18:49.676 here, which is not the clearly, not the clearly out, right? 00:18:49.676 --> 00:18:52.646 There's a lot of talk of green lights and orange lights and red lights, 00:18:52.646 --> 00:18:54.386 which I think and flags, right? 00:18:54.476 --> 00:18:56.876 And these things are good to have right? 00:18:57.176 --> 00:18:57.986 People probably. 00:18:59.036 --> 00:19:01.676 People do need to have red flags and orange flags, right? 00:19:02.186 --> 00:19:03.536 And you need to have them. 00:19:03.536 --> 00:19:04.376 We all need to have them. 00:19:05.336 --> 00:19:09.896 But there's this gray area of like, okay, if you take that, this 00:19:09.896 --> 00:19:14.336 doctrine about relationships really seriously, then you might end up 00:19:14.336 --> 00:19:15.716 going to the other extreme, which is. 00:19:17.231 --> 00:19:21.731 I must more or less be completely healthy and have no needs whatsoever. 00:19:21.851 --> 00:19:25.451 And only then should I enter into a relationship, which is, well, the way, 00:19:25.451 --> 00:19:26.951 which is a bit too far the other way. 00:19:26.956 --> 00:19:27.106 Right? 00:19:27.106 --> 00:19:29.201 The way Eckhart Toll writes and things. 00:19:29.261 --> 00:19:30.881 Yeah, that's exactly what he would say. 00:19:31.331 --> 00:19:31.631 Yeah. 00:19:31.661 --> 00:19:37.241 I think there's a level of sort of like he is a very much a basically everything. 00:19:37.691 --> 00:19:41.021 All your suffering needs to be serving your awakening into the present moment. 00:19:41.261 --> 00:19:43.211 A full awakening, spiritual awakening. 00:19:43.691 --> 00:19:45.701 And, and sure, I can, I can get to that. 00:19:45.761 --> 00:19:46.751 Okay, sure. 00:19:46.871 --> 00:19:49.901 Everything that happens to you needs to be serving your awakening. 00:19:50.381 --> 00:19:53.501 And if it's not, you know, then you're fucking it up basically. 00:19:53.501 --> 00:19:55.481 And he's very, he's very black. 00:19:55.481 --> 00:19:57.881 Well, maybe that's why I keep rereading him 'cause he's so black 00:19:57.881 --> 00:20:00.101 and white and so I know everything. 00:20:00.101 --> 00:20:03.701 Plus I know all these theories that I can't prove, and I'm just 00:20:03.701 --> 00:20:04.996 gonna claim that they're true and. 00:20:05.771 --> 00:20:06.851 I that appeals to me. 00:20:06.851 --> 00:20:10.301 You know, I think that's fine, but I think we need to sort of identify 00:20:10.301 --> 00:20:14.858 an area which is that Okay, two things can be true at the same time. 00:20:14.858 --> 00:20:17.318 The first one being that we need to be able to supply our own sort of 00:20:17.318 --> 00:20:19.238 basic needs to some degree, right? 00:20:19.238 --> 00:20:21.968 And not require a ton of maintenance from others. 00:20:21.968 --> 00:20:22.328 Right. 00:20:22.778 --> 00:20:24.518 But I can kind of agree with that. 00:20:24.668 --> 00:20:30.548 But what's the line between having sort of no requirements that you 00:20:31.148 --> 00:20:33.158 could or would place on anybody else? 00:20:34.028 --> 00:20:42.458 And the kind of normal human experience of like having interrelated needs and 00:20:42.458 --> 00:20:46.088 obligations and so on, which is what we normally encounter in friendships and, 00:20:46.088 --> 00:20:51.368 and working relationships and uh, and family relationships and all of it, right? 00:20:51.398 --> 00:20:55.748 So it seems to me he's creating a bit of a platonic spiritual ideal here, 00:20:55.748 --> 00:20:58.178 which is like cool and everything. 00:20:59.063 --> 00:21:01.043 How well it serves as a viable model. 00:21:01.223 --> 00:21:05.333 Maybe it's an, it's an ideal or an aspiration to keep in mind, but 00:21:05.333 --> 00:21:10.163 what's the messy gray area of like acceptable in Betweenness here? 00:21:11.003 --> 00:21:16.643 So, for example, if a person such me, for example, I believe that I have 00:21:16.643 --> 00:21:22.583 a level of emotional generosity that I've always had and getting older and 00:21:22.583 --> 00:21:28.253 having more resources, more wisdom, more patience, I think with others and myself. 00:21:29.453 --> 00:21:33.413 I don't think I need a partner to be, to have no emotional 00:21:33.413 --> 00:21:34.793 needs, to have no blind spots. 00:21:34.793 --> 00:21:38.303 I don't, I don't think I need them to not need me at all. 00:21:38.543 --> 00:21:39.863 I think a little is, you know. 00:21:39.953 --> 00:21:40.403 Okay. 00:21:40.523 --> 00:21:45.023 So what extent is, okay, so do you know what that makes me think of? 00:21:45.053 --> 00:21:45.443 Yeah. 00:21:45.773 --> 00:21:50.573 Um, Chelsea Hotel, Leonard Cohen, and I need you. 00:21:51.098 --> 00:21:53.228 I don't need you all that. 00:21:53.228 --> 00:21:54.158 Driving around. 00:21:54.338 --> 00:21:54.638 Yeah. 00:21:54.788 --> 00:21:58.538 You know, we never did say, I need you, I don't need you, and all that. 00:21:58.538 --> 00:22:02.168 Driving around it's like, yeah, I can be so needy. 00:22:03.008 --> 00:22:08.558 It's like I am needy at, at the moment I don't have a partner, but 00:22:08.558 --> 00:22:13.958 the moment I get one, like all of the emotional stuff that I try and process. 00:22:14.768 --> 00:22:17.948 On my own or with friends, I'll then immediately want to 00:22:17.948 --> 00:22:19.268 try and process it with them. 00:22:19.298 --> 00:22:19.538 Hmm. 00:22:19.808 --> 00:22:22.148 And, uh, a friend, a male friend of mine, but then you turn 00:22:22.148 --> 00:22:23.093 around and wanna watch the test. 00:22:24.113 --> 00:22:24.893 Yeah. 00:22:24.893 --> 00:22:28.583 Then I just want to check, once I've done all my processing, then I want 00:22:28.583 --> 00:22:30.083 to check out and watch live sport. 00:22:30.503 --> 00:22:30.803 Yeah. 00:22:31.403 --> 00:22:32.153 Um mm-hmm. 00:22:32.213 --> 00:22:32.543 Yeah. 00:22:32.603 --> 00:22:37.703 Anyway, and I, I tend to find women that are wonderful, really wonderful 00:22:37.703 --> 00:22:40.613 to talk to, like about deep stuff. 00:22:40.913 --> 00:22:41.183 Yeah. 00:22:41.188 --> 00:22:43.013 Like in fact, for sure. 00:22:43.523 --> 00:22:46.853 You know, I remember I was briefly dating a Japanese woman. 00:22:47.528 --> 00:22:49.568 And there was just no depth to the conversation. 00:22:49.568 --> 00:22:51.758 And it, it didn't last long at all. 00:22:51.968 --> 00:22:54.488 And I don't, I don't know the exact reason, but she didn't want to 00:22:54.488 --> 00:22:56.108 get into any deep conversations. 00:22:56.138 --> 00:22:56.348 Okay. 00:22:56.348 --> 00:22:59.438 So it wa it wasn't a lack of vocab or fluency or anything like that? 00:22:59.513 --> 00:22:59.918 No, no. 00:22:59.918 --> 00:23:00.548 Not at all. 00:23:00.548 --> 00:23:03.758 Just a cultural difference about what you talk about? 00:23:04.448 --> 00:23:06.218 Uh, I mean, it's surely that's the kind of thing that might 00:23:06.218 --> 00:23:08.198 change over a, over a long period. 00:23:08.258 --> 00:23:14.198 Also, I think that it's possible to mistake the kind of, when you, when 00:23:14.288 --> 00:23:16.688 people like you and me, we can gain. 00:23:18.068 --> 00:23:20.948 We can experience like a level of emotional intimacy 00:23:20.948 --> 00:23:22.898 with people like quite, yeah. 00:23:22.898 --> 00:23:23.558 Quickly. 00:23:23.888 --> 00:23:27.188 And I think there's something to be said for taking your time with that as well. 00:23:27.368 --> 00:23:28.028 Yeah, you're right. 00:23:28.058 --> 00:23:33.488 Like, sorry, I mean to explain she was reserved and I didn't know how to, 00:23:34.328 --> 00:23:38.318 like basically I want to have a really intense first date with someone where 00:23:38.318 --> 00:23:39.998 they start to tell me all their trauma. 00:23:40.958 --> 00:23:42.398 And just go from there. 00:23:42.428 --> 00:23:42.488 Yeah. 00:23:42.488 --> 00:23:43.658 And just trauma dump. 00:23:43.958 --> 00:23:44.048 Sure. 00:23:44.048 --> 00:23:47.168 And like get into the full on childhood shit and Yeah, me too. 00:23:47.258 --> 00:23:48.218 I would tend to go with that. 00:23:48.248 --> 00:23:48.878 Yeah. 00:23:48.878 --> 00:23:48.888 Yeah. 00:23:48.938 --> 00:23:53.528 So when I come across someone who's say physically attractive, but doesn't 00:23:53.528 --> 00:23:58.058 want to go deep in conversation, I can't, it just doesn't last long. 00:23:58.058 --> 00:24:02.108 I want to confide in someone and have them confide in me. 00:24:02.168 --> 00:24:03.398 What did she wanna talk about? 00:24:03.638 --> 00:24:04.148 I'm curious. 00:24:04.148 --> 00:24:04.778 Not much. 00:24:04.778 --> 00:24:08.348 It was very shallow, superficial, like. 00:24:09.518 --> 00:24:10.298 Conversation. 00:24:10.298 --> 00:24:11.828 Was she a designer or something? 00:24:11.828 --> 00:24:13.988 Was she a Uh, I can't even remember. 00:24:13.988 --> 00:24:15.488 It was only a couple of dates. 00:24:15.968 --> 00:24:17.948 I think I remember you mentioning them. 00:24:18.428 --> 00:24:21.158 She had a wonderful fashion sense and looked amazing. 00:24:21.163 --> 00:24:21.698 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:24:21.698 --> 00:24:23.108 And I was like, wow. 00:24:23.258 --> 00:24:26.648 Like you are like the best dressed woman I've ever gone on a date with. 00:24:26.708 --> 00:24:27.308 Amazing. 00:24:27.548 --> 00:24:30.578 But then we'd go to talk and there'd be nothing. 00:24:31.958 --> 00:24:32.318 Yeah. 00:24:32.378 --> 00:24:32.813 That is rough. 00:24:34.178 --> 00:24:34.448 Yeah. 00:24:34.448 --> 00:24:40.538 Um, but it was just an example of, I, I, I tell myself I'm shallow. 00:24:41.603 --> 00:24:45.533 But actually when presented with a really attractive woman who doesn't 00:24:45.533 --> 00:24:49.013 have much to say on a date, Shani did. 00:24:49.013 --> 00:24:49.283 Yeah. 00:24:49.283 --> 00:24:50.153 I'm not that shallow. 00:24:50.333 --> 00:24:51.083 I'm actually not. 00:24:51.143 --> 00:24:51.383 Yeah. 00:24:51.413 --> 00:24:53.483 Well, to make a joke, Shani is only skin deep. 00:24:53.963 --> 00:24:54.173 Yeah. 00:24:54.653 --> 00:24:55.433 Something like that. 00:24:55.493 --> 00:24:55.913 Like look. 00:24:56.188 --> 00:24:57.688 Mic shall only go so far. 00:24:57.748 --> 00:24:58.468 Yeah. 00:24:58.623 --> 00:25:02.338 So, so in the last 10 years, because when you're having the heart to heart 00:25:02.338 --> 00:25:06.928 right, and you really like swapping stories and you know, the, everything's 00:25:06.928 --> 00:25:08.938 making, everything you're saying is landing and everything they're 00:25:08.938 --> 00:25:12.358 saying is landing and everything they say, like they, they understand. 00:25:12.358 --> 00:25:13.348 They get what I'm saying. 00:25:13.498 --> 00:25:19.108 I get what they, it's, it's a wonderful thing and a per a person with like, 00:25:19.478 --> 00:25:23.528 Who's, you know, well, shy of the 10 suddenly seems intensely hot. 00:25:23.953 --> 00:25:24.818 Yeah, yeah, definitely. 00:25:24.818 --> 00:25:29.528 Like it, it, it is like a huge, and I know that it's definitely assisted to lift 00:25:29.528 --> 00:25:34.088 my score in the past, and, and I don't mean to talk about, by the way, shout 00:25:34.088 --> 00:25:38.588 out to Lou, pointing out quite rightly that there was a level of commodified 00:25:38.588 --> 00:25:42.848 language going on in the the attraction episode, which is exactly right now. 00:25:42.848 --> 00:25:46.148 I felt like I was doing that quite consciously in. 00:25:47.303 --> 00:25:48.863 A sort of ironic way. 00:25:48.893 --> 00:25:49.463 Yeah, ironic. 00:25:49.463 --> 00:25:51.773 Like I'm, I'm acknowledging that you don't actually just 00:25:51.773 --> 00:25:53.453 see people as numbers out of 10. 00:25:53.483 --> 00:25:54.623 No, I see that. 00:25:54.623 --> 00:25:58.583 I see them that way much less as time goes by, but it was never a 00:25:58.763 --> 00:26:00.203 strong thing in me to begin with. 00:26:00.743 --> 00:26:06.053 But also it was an, you know, the fact is we have to acknowledge that 00:26:06.053 --> 00:26:09.983 there is a process that's been going on since at least Marks wrote about. 00:26:11.318 --> 00:26:14.468 Economics and the human condition, which is the commodification of 00:26:14.468 --> 00:26:17.828 human beings is like a process that's been entrained for quite some time. 00:26:18.098 --> 00:26:20.808 And we are really on the pointy end of the commodification of human 00:26:20.808 --> 00:26:23.678 people might have been rating other people out of 10 for attractiveness 00:26:23.678 --> 00:26:24.848 since they could count to 10. 00:26:24.848 --> 00:26:25.208 Sam. 00:26:25.568 --> 00:26:27.188 They might have been doing it since then. 00:26:27.188 --> 00:26:28.448 It doesn't mean you should do it. 00:26:28.478 --> 00:26:29.498 No, no, I agree. 00:26:29.528 --> 00:26:32.228 And that I think they've been doing it since the invention of marriage markets 00:26:32.288 --> 00:26:33.728 like, which is a long, long thing. 00:26:33.998 --> 00:26:37.088 What what I'm trying to say is I don't necessarily think that this. 00:26:37.438 --> 00:26:40.678 Disposable and sort of ratings attitude towards other human 00:26:40.678 --> 00:26:42.448 beings is necessarily a new thing. 00:26:42.448 --> 00:26:49.258 I just think that the app, the app thing has turned what relationships were always, 00:26:49.258 --> 00:26:53.758 to some degree marketized, but I think it's just brought it to an extreme. 00:26:54.088 --> 00:26:56.848 Yeah, and and I think that one of the results of it. 00:26:57.113 --> 00:27:02.243 Is part of what you are experiencing, and I wonder how much you are like 00:27:02.273 --> 00:27:06.533 this was preexisting make, see, back in the day, I'd have meet someone great. 00:27:06.773 --> 00:27:10.643 Have a deep conversation, hang out a few times, more and more. 00:27:10.643 --> 00:27:13.763 Deep conversation, more and more hanging out, having a wonderful time. 00:27:13.763 --> 00:27:16.643 Then it'd be like, all right, now we're gonna drive out in the ute. 00:27:16.703 --> 00:27:19.943 We're gonna drive out to a salt lake and we're gonna drop some acid. 00:27:20.108 --> 00:27:20.168 Yeah. 00:27:20.678 --> 00:27:24.428 And then we'd go really deep on acid for like 10 hours on a salt lake. 00:27:24.458 --> 00:27:24.968 Sure. 00:27:25.028 --> 00:27:28.238 And then like, 'cause I was always trying to get as deep as possible. 00:27:28.238 --> 00:27:28.298 Yeah. 00:27:28.328 --> 00:27:29.528 To the next level, next level. 00:27:29.528 --> 00:27:30.188 And yeah. 00:27:30.308 --> 00:27:34.058 In my twenties when I could still take drugs, I would do that. 00:27:34.478 --> 00:27:38.678 And then you'd have this incredible experience with someone Yeah. 00:27:38.768 --> 00:27:42.428 Of like LSD connection and, um, yeah. 00:27:42.428 --> 00:27:45.158 So that's the other thing is that there was always substances up 00:27:45.158 --> 00:27:48.458 until I was 35 involved in the connection, whether it was, yeah. 00:27:48.488 --> 00:27:49.218 Few glasses of. 00:27:49.673 --> 00:27:50.808 Red wine or Sure. 00:27:50.813 --> 00:27:53.063 Or Alice, big Alice d trip or whatever. 00:27:53.063 --> 00:27:54.713 Well, weed that can, that can, yeah. 00:27:54.773 --> 00:27:57.203 And so for the last 10 years, it hasn't been that. 00:27:57.413 --> 00:27:58.313 Um, yeah. 00:27:58.313 --> 00:28:01.643 And, but you are pretty good at getting to the, the like altered consciousness 00:28:01.643 --> 00:28:04.223 anyway and like accessing the circuitry. 00:28:04.343 --> 00:28:09.683 And I am too, and I can trip on sober conversations with people and like 00:28:09.683 --> 00:28:11.663 really my head's doing fun things. 00:28:11.663 --> 00:28:11.873 Right. 00:28:12.293 --> 00:28:15.953 But, but what I've also learned is that I really, I really value. 00:28:16.358 --> 00:28:20.828 Uh, feeling grounded around people and it's not, it's difficult for me to do 00:28:21.428 --> 00:28:26.258 and people that can help me a little bit with that or that, where I find it 00:28:26.258 --> 00:28:27.528 easier to stay grounded around them. 00:28:27.528 --> 00:28:28.253 Do you, I value that. 00:28:28.253 --> 00:28:29.723 Do you find these podcast conversations grounding? 00:28:30.308 --> 00:28:30.698 Yeah. 00:28:31.058 --> 00:28:33.728 How do you find the podcast conversation compared to the chat 00:28:33.728 --> 00:28:35.138 we have before we do the show? 00:28:35.678 --> 00:28:36.968 Which one's more grounding? 00:28:37.208 --> 00:28:41.288 Uh, about the same because like one is more private. 00:28:41.288 --> 00:28:44.678 Not that there's a ton we would say there, we wouldn't say here, but yeah. 00:28:44.678 --> 00:28:46.868 Maybe to our, uh, detriment. 00:28:47.768 --> 00:28:48.068 Yeah. 00:28:48.068 --> 00:28:48.078 Yeah. 00:28:48.128 --> 00:28:52.298 I'm probably, I'm probably, I'm interested in having less and less 00:28:52.298 --> 00:28:53.678 stuff that I won't talk about. 00:28:53.678 --> 00:28:57.458 So like, yeah, little by little, but when, but when it. 00:28:58.508 --> 00:29:01.328 No, it's the same kind of thing because there's a ritual around it. 00:29:01.388 --> 00:29:03.818 Like I'm no longer, yeah, I'm no longer setting up the gear. 00:29:04.208 --> 00:29:08.708 I'm no longer like making tea or making sure the space is appropriate because 00:29:08.708 --> 00:29:10.988 I find these chats extremely cathartic. 00:29:10.988 --> 00:29:11.198 Yeah. 00:29:12.008 --> 00:29:16.718 It's like the best version of a chat with a friend because I'm having to 00:29:16.718 --> 00:29:22.448 think clearly 'cause I'm being recorded instead of my wooly like distracted and 00:29:22.448 --> 00:29:25.898 I can't do anything else at the same time, like, yes, we're not on our phones. 00:29:25.928 --> 00:29:27.578 It's ritualized, it's set aside. 00:29:27.878 --> 00:29:28.868 It's a sacred space. 00:29:28.868 --> 00:29:32.413 It's a lot closer to the therapy door than Yeah. 00:29:32.618 --> 00:29:33.253 Yeah, you're right. 00:29:33.253 --> 00:29:33.488 You're right. 00:29:33.548 --> 00:29:35.048 So he is grounding in that way. 00:29:35.228 --> 00:29:36.038 Yeah, that's right. 00:29:36.043 --> 00:29:36.053 Yeah. 00:29:36.073 --> 00:29:39.758 And so it, it greatly reduces my sense of loneliness. 00:29:39.963 --> 00:29:40.473 Yes. 00:29:40.623 --> 00:29:44.433 Um, yes, but like, yeah, exactly the irony. 00:29:44.823 --> 00:29:45.093 Yeah. 00:29:45.303 --> 00:29:49.083 Um, yeah, for me it makes me think of another of a Neil Young 00:29:49.083 --> 00:29:51.873 Line from a song, well I had an Elis Morisset line, so perfect. 00:29:51.903 --> 00:29:55.413 Which is, I'll do mine first, which is I need a crowd of people, 00:29:55.413 --> 00:29:57.033 but I can't face him day to day. 00:29:57.813 --> 00:29:58.653 Oh shit. 00:29:58.653 --> 00:30:04.095 I thought I knew Neil pretty well, but, so that always resonated with 00:30:04.095 --> 00:30:05.505 me and like I noticed at work. 00:30:06.395 --> 00:30:09.155 Um, I was in a shared office with like 10 other people. 00:30:09.155 --> 00:30:09.245 Mm-hmm. 00:30:09.485 --> 00:30:13.800 And then this opportunity came up to get my own little office and I jumped at that. 00:30:14.675 --> 00:30:15.515 And then they, yeah. 00:30:15.635 --> 00:30:19.085 Um, I would've, I did it for a few months and I was isolated. 00:30:19.085 --> 00:30:21.785 It's funny though, isn't it, with my childhood being an only child 00:30:21.785 --> 00:30:24.335 and being so lonely, you'd think I'd always wanna be around people, 00:30:24.665 --> 00:30:27.395 but other people are so annoying. 00:30:27.665 --> 00:30:27.935 Yeah. 00:30:27.935 --> 00:30:30.905 And I'm annoying and I become conscious of how I'm, and how I'm being 00:30:30.905 --> 00:30:32.315 annoying and that gets on my nerves. 00:30:32.315 --> 00:30:36.545 And then I did the few months in the shared office and then. 00:30:37.025 --> 00:30:37.385 Sorry. 00:30:37.385 --> 00:30:39.605 I did the, about a year in a share office, a few months in a 00:30:39.605 --> 00:30:42.605 solo office and then back, went back to the floor two weeks ago. 00:30:42.605 --> 00:30:46.620 They put me back in the shared office and the first day I could have like, did 00:30:46.620 --> 00:30:47.825 they vic you from your private office? 00:30:47.825 --> 00:30:53.675 I could've like tore my own hair out, just overhearing someone's 00:30:53.675 --> 00:30:55.565 conversation that I didn't need to hear. 00:30:55.625 --> 00:30:56.585 Noise canceling. 00:30:57.455 --> 00:30:57.695 Oh, like. 00:30:58.490 --> 00:31:02.540 I, but it's, I need a crowd of people, as in I'm not okay on my 00:31:02.540 --> 00:31:07.160 own, but I can't face 'em day to day, as in people are so annoying. 00:31:07.520 --> 00:31:09.230 Do you think, well, that is a great lyric. 00:31:09.230 --> 00:31:09.980 What song is it from? 00:31:10.595 --> 00:31:13.850 It it goes on to say, get Out Town. 00:31:14.270 --> 00:31:14.600 Think. 00:31:14.630 --> 00:31:16.400 Ah, get Out Town. 00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:18.255 Oh, is it from like on the Beach or something? 00:31:18.255 --> 00:31:19.070 Yeah, from On the Beach. 00:31:19.070 --> 00:31:19.190 Yeah. 00:31:19.220 --> 00:31:20.750 But I couldn't tell you the exact track. 00:31:20.900 --> 00:31:22.730 Oh, I'm just glad I was able to guess the album. 00:31:22.730 --> 00:31:23.295 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:31:23.300 --> 00:31:24.110 That'll do me. 00:31:24.115 --> 00:31:24.710 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:31:24.710 --> 00:31:25.160 It's good. 00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:25.640 Yeah, it's. 00:31:26.195 --> 00:31:26.465 Okay. 00:31:26.465 --> 00:31:31.385 So to give people context, Neil is a bit of a sense of introspective lad, isn't he? 00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:32.130 Yeah, he is. 00:31:32.130 --> 00:31:32.140 Yeah. 00:31:32.140 --> 00:31:35.555 He's shaky as his biography with title. 00:31:35.555 --> 00:31:37.535 He has, uh, what was his epilepsy? 00:31:37.535 --> 00:31:38.285 He had epilepsy. 00:31:38.285 --> 00:31:38.555 Yep. 00:31:38.615 --> 00:31:42.125 Yeah, like some other people we know and he. 00:31:42.850 --> 00:31:45.700 I think he spent a lot of time on his own and I, but as you 00:31:45.700 --> 00:31:49.180 say, he was more comfortable around others while being alone. 00:31:49.540 --> 00:31:51.940 And I know that, well, he also wrote the song, A Man Needs a Maid. 00:31:51.940 --> 00:31:54.460 A Man Needs a Maid About, it's just someone to keep my house 00:31:54.460 --> 00:31:56.260 clean, cook my meals, and go away. 00:31:56.320 --> 00:31:56.380 Yeah. 00:31:56.380 --> 00:31:57.400 Which is a real. 00:31:57.995 --> 00:32:00.665 It's either a real head scratcher of a song that you've gotta do a bit of 00:32:00.665 --> 00:32:03.695 work with, or it's just plain not cool. 00:32:03.695 --> 00:32:07.835 But either way, it's really, it was the sixties, it was the six, 00:32:07.925 --> 00:32:10.625 uh, early seventies, but yeah, no, I think that was sixties harvest. 00:32:10.655 --> 00:32:10.805 No. 00:32:10.805 --> 00:32:12.060 Harvest was like 72, wasn't it? 00:32:12.060 --> 00:32:12.905 72, was it? 00:32:12.995 --> 00:32:13.385 Yeah. 00:32:13.445 --> 00:32:13.805 Okay. 00:32:14.195 --> 00:32:18.875 Well anyways, but the point is Neil, he was married to Peggy for a long time. 00:32:18.905 --> 00:32:21.965 They divorced only the last few years and. 00:32:22.925 --> 00:32:27.622 I think he, put it this way, when I go down to Cafe Flow and sit with my 00:32:27.622 --> 00:32:32.242 surface and get a bit of work done, or some just do a bit of riding or, or 00:32:32.242 --> 00:32:37.222 just, just waste time on the internet in the company of others, I so happy. 00:32:37.282 --> 00:32:39.052 I feel great. 00:32:39.292 --> 00:32:43.612 I feel perfect like no needs. 00:32:43.612 --> 00:32:43.972 But what? 00:32:44.542 --> 00:32:47.932 But what about if you wake up in your bed and stay in your bed on your phone? 00:32:47.932 --> 00:32:48.682 How do you feel then? 00:32:49.072 --> 00:32:49.462 Awful. 00:32:49.822 --> 00:32:50.032 Yeah. 00:32:50.032 --> 00:32:51.622 I, I cannot do that. 00:32:51.712 --> 00:32:51.982 Yeah. 00:32:52.162 --> 00:32:55.732 So I need to have something in my calendar for that day, even if it's 00:32:55.852 --> 00:32:57.682 drive to the beach, go for a walk. 00:32:57.982 --> 00:32:58.252 Yeah. 00:32:58.257 --> 00:33:03.022 I've started, if I wake up and there's nothing on my agenda, I spiral so quickly. 00:33:03.082 --> 00:33:03.352 Okay. 00:33:03.412 --> 00:33:05.872 My mental health just nose dives. 00:33:05.992 --> 00:33:10.462 I, I don't, but I will say I have, I've done four, five 00:33:10.462 --> 00:33:11.647 mornings on the phone for about. 00:33:13.432 --> 00:33:16.072 10 to 20 the last few morning. 00:33:16.132 --> 00:33:20.992 And I have gotten thoroughly annoyed with myself more enough to overcome 00:33:20.992 --> 00:33:25.432 the compulsion and just, yeah, like, ugh, I'm pissing myself off right now. 00:33:25.792 --> 00:33:27.712 'cause the truth is I don't have nothing to do. 00:33:27.922 --> 00:33:32.812 Like, and maybe part of this is easier for me because I've got, 00:33:33.442 --> 00:33:34.582 my children are a bit younger. 00:33:35.176 --> 00:33:36.856 we both work a similar schedule. 00:33:37.336 --> 00:33:40.441 I'm talking about Saturdays and Sundays only, but this is the thing on Saturday, 00:33:40.446 --> 00:33:43.576 Saturdays and Sundays when I don't have my kids, so once a fortnight. 00:33:43.606 --> 00:33:49.606 So on Saturdays and Sundays I've got like two usually too much to do and it 00:33:49.606 --> 00:33:51.406 often involves being around other people. 00:33:51.736 --> 00:33:52.306 So I get. 00:33:54.421 --> 00:33:56.941 You know, like if there's sport or something like incidental 00:33:56.941 --> 00:34:00.901 socialization there and then usually by the end of Saturday I'm like 00:34:00.961 --> 00:34:06.481 very happy to be by myself and you know, and then see that phrase. 00:34:06.631 --> 00:34:08.341 Very happy to be by myself. 00:34:08.371 --> 00:34:08.701 Yeah. 00:34:09.031 --> 00:34:10.561 I don't think I've ever uttered that. 00:34:11.461 --> 00:34:12.991 I used to be like it a lot less. 00:34:12.991 --> 00:34:14.041 I'll say that because. 00:34:14.791 --> 00:34:19.471 Like I'd kind of in a way, wish the 20, my twenties never ended and the house 00:34:19.471 --> 00:34:24.271 parties never stopped and Oh, I've, but ironic, ironically, back in the day I 00:34:24.271 --> 00:34:26.401 was over the house parties and the drugs. 00:34:26.611 --> 00:34:26.881 Yeah. 00:34:26.941 --> 00:34:30.031 And decided to have it got boring a kid at 28, 29. 00:34:30.121 --> 00:34:30.361 Yeah. 00:34:30.421 --> 00:34:33.601 Decided to have a kid because I was like, yeah, I've seen this whole scene. 00:34:33.691 --> 00:34:35.191 I was been repeated however many times. 00:34:35.191 --> 00:34:37.951 I was bored with it by exactly the same age, but I persisted 00:34:37.951 --> 00:34:39.331 for for a few more years. 00:34:39.361 --> 00:34:39.961 Yeah. 00:34:40.021 --> 00:34:40.321 Yeah. 00:34:40.351 --> 00:34:42.511 You sat around a fire at a house party talking shit. 00:34:43.201 --> 00:34:44.971 One time I was bored with it by 25. 00:34:45.151 --> 00:34:48.181 Yeah, it got repetitive, but at least it was an option. 00:34:48.181 --> 00:34:49.861 Now there's no option for a house party. 00:34:49.861 --> 00:34:49.921 No. 00:34:49.921 --> 00:34:50.881 We've discussed this before. 00:34:50.881 --> 00:34:53.911 It's all dead and gone and there's, we've discussed whether on the show, 00:34:53.911 --> 00:34:56.551 whether there was secret dinner parties we weren't getting invited to. 00:34:56.551 --> 00:34:59.311 Probably not, but I'm convinced there's no secret dinner parties. 00:34:59.311 --> 00:35:00.271 There's very few anyway. 00:35:00.721 --> 00:35:03.691 And we put it this way the other day. 00:35:03.691 --> 00:35:03.991 Right. 00:35:03.991 --> 00:35:05.731 Someone suggest like, uh, I think it was my mate. 00:35:05.858 --> 00:35:10.448 Benedict Sibley maybe, but he was like, oh, you know, we'll get you this little 00:35:10.928 --> 00:35:13.268 science, art, art room table here. 00:35:13.538 --> 00:35:14.468 Four chairs. 00:35:15.128 --> 00:35:15.818 Perfect. 00:35:16.208 --> 00:35:20.438 It's just enough you can, you know, you can put on a pot of soup, you know, you. 00:35:21.233 --> 00:35:23.183 Some fresh, some good fresh bread. 00:35:23.573 --> 00:35:25.103 You know, maybe a little dessert. 00:35:25.463 --> 00:35:26.003 Dinner parties. 00:35:26.003 --> 00:35:26.993 Doesn't have to be a big deal. 00:35:26.993 --> 00:35:28.133 Sam, where's this? 00:35:28.133 --> 00:35:28.853 In your apartment? 00:35:28.853 --> 00:35:30.143 Yeah, just right here in the apartment. 00:35:30.563 --> 00:35:30.893 Oh, yeah. 00:35:30.953 --> 00:35:32.513 'cause that's, I was gonna ask you about that. 00:35:32.513 --> 00:35:33.803 So you've got your own place now? 00:35:33.863 --> 00:35:34.073 Mm-hmm. 00:35:34.583 --> 00:35:36.533 How is it loneliness or solitude? 00:35:37.283 --> 00:35:37.883 Solitude. 00:35:38.513 --> 00:35:41.093 The only time it's loneliness is when. 00:35:41.678 --> 00:35:44.588 There's something that'ss quite specific. 00:35:44.648 --> 00:35:45.998 Usually that's troubling me. 00:35:46.538 --> 00:35:46.838 Mm. 00:35:46.838 --> 00:35:48.938 Like I've been put off by something. 00:35:49.658 --> 00:35:54.098 Uh, and, or there's like a, you know, there's a, there's a little 00:35:54.428 --> 00:35:58.148 something that needs dealing with, you know, with another person or there's 00:35:58.148 --> 00:36:01.448 something I'm procrastinating, I'll feel lonely then sometimes interesting. 00:36:01.448 --> 00:36:05.318 But basically the second I take action, it just disappears. 00:36:05.408 --> 00:36:08.874 And then the other thing is, Sometimes when there's not a 00:36:08.874 --> 00:36:14.064 particular thing to do or take action and whatever, then it can hit me. 00:36:14.064 --> 00:36:14.424 Right? 00:36:15.774 --> 00:36:20.604 But it doesn't hang around for that long, I find, um, although I have 00:36:20.604 --> 00:36:26.214 jumped on the phone with people, um, and had some like, oh, phone chats. 00:36:26.274 --> 00:36:27.144 Yeah, I've had some phones. 00:36:27.204 --> 00:36:27.804 Old school. 00:36:27.864 --> 00:36:28.489 Yeah, old school. 00:36:28.729 --> 00:36:29.129 Bringing it back. 00:36:29.529 --> 00:36:29.809 Bringing it back. 00:36:29.809 --> 00:36:30.714 What do you just call 'em? 00:36:30.714 --> 00:36:31.644 You text them first. 00:36:32.424 --> 00:36:33.534 Maybe a text first. 00:36:33.564 --> 00:36:33.774 Yeah. 00:36:33.774 --> 00:36:36.594 You gotta do the text first these days, or they think it's an emergency, but 00:36:36.594 --> 00:36:39.834 I ju No, but I just, I just do the ring and just hang up after a couple. 00:36:39.834 --> 00:36:42.804 So it's like, it's not like no one's in hospital or anything. 00:36:42.804 --> 00:36:45.444 It's just like, ring, ring, ring, ring, eh, hang up. 00:36:45.594 --> 00:36:45.924 Yeah. 00:36:45.984 --> 00:36:49.314 They'll get me if they, if they want, uh, I do, I just feel like I just 00:36:49.314 --> 00:36:53.994 send the bat signal and people, people take it up about 70% of the time. 00:36:54.174 --> 00:36:54.324 Yeah. 00:36:54.564 --> 00:36:58.044 And when they don't, I don't find myself hanging. 00:36:58.044 --> 00:36:59.124 I'm just like, yeah, it's cool. 00:36:59.184 --> 00:37:00.789 Do you pace the apartment while you're on the phone? 00:37:01.749 --> 00:37:03.339 Yeah, you gotta pace, right? 00:37:03.429 --> 00:37:04.089 Gotta pace. 00:37:04.329 --> 00:37:05.409 I'm a lunatic on the phone. 00:37:05.469 --> 00:37:08.529 I was thinking though, if you were lonely, you could always just walk out 00:37:08.529 --> 00:37:10.149 and just walk the length of High Street. 00:37:10.149 --> 00:37:10.394 I do. 00:37:11.334 --> 00:37:11.484 Yeah. 00:37:11.484 --> 00:37:12.924 You see, do some people watching? 00:37:13.074 --> 00:37:13.374 I do. 00:37:13.434 --> 00:37:16.554 Which I, I could probably do in Footscray too, but I don't Yeah, 00:37:16.554 --> 00:37:17.694 there's some good streets near you. 00:37:17.754 --> 00:37:17.994 Yeah. 00:37:17.994 --> 00:37:19.134 I could walk down Barkley Street. 00:37:19.134 --> 00:37:22.314 There's always some interesting people, but I am antisocial. 00:37:22.314 --> 00:37:22.854 Essentially. 00:37:22.854 --> 00:37:24.264 I'm antisocial, but I need people. 00:37:24.264 --> 00:37:26.964 This is why I always come to the conclusion that I 00:37:26.964 --> 00:37:28.254 need an intimate partner. 00:37:28.494 --> 00:37:29.514 City streets are great. 00:37:29.544 --> 00:37:33.684 I, I would, I'm not happy in a, in the small town unless I've got places to 00:37:33.684 --> 00:37:34.944 be where I know people are gonna be. 00:37:35.214 --> 00:37:36.384 But in a big city like this. 00:37:36.674 --> 00:37:40.859 I, I like to just walk around and be in the company of benevolent strangers. 00:37:40.859 --> 00:37:41.909 I love the shit out of it. 00:37:41.909 --> 00:37:44.429 I'm a townie through and these, yeah, I should probably go and sit in more 00:37:44.429 --> 00:37:46.469 cafes and bro, it's the greatest. 00:37:46.829 --> 00:37:47.009 Yeah. 00:37:47.009 --> 00:37:49.979 Like, and, and just, you know, 'cause I, and I'd kind of prefer it to the 00:37:49.979 --> 00:37:53.819 pub as well and where the pub feels like there's more of an expectation 00:37:53.819 --> 00:37:55.529 to be outgoing and like all that. 00:37:55.529 --> 00:37:56.669 And I don't always feel like it. 00:37:56.969 --> 00:37:58.919 Like the job, my job takes a lot of my social energy. 00:37:59.339 --> 00:38:00.089 This is the thing. 00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:03.509 If I was doing an admin job instead or something, which in some ways 00:38:03.509 --> 00:38:06.779 I would prefer, I would probably have quite a lot more latent. 00:38:07.409 --> 00:38:11.909 Yeah, I do quite a lot of interaction at work with clients and at. 00:38:12.434 --> 00:38:12.644 Yeah. 00:38:12.644 --> 00:38:15.074 It's why I generally don't wanna record on a weeknight. 00:38:15.074 --> 00:38:19.004 I wanna record on a Sunday when I've had a day off of social interaction. 00:38:19.034 --> 00:38:19.484 Yeah. 00:38:19.604 --> 00:38:22.004 And then I freshen up on a Sunday and I'm ready to talk. 00:38:22.004 --> 00:38:22.309 But yeah. 00:38:22.454 --> 00:38:22.604 Yeah. 00:38:22.604 --> 00:38:24.554 You've had had to, tonight we're here on a weeknight because 00:38:24.554 --> 00:38:25.629 we've, it's had to squeeze it in. 00:38:25.629 --> 00:38:25.909 It's unusual. 00:38:25.914 --> 00:38:25.934 Yeah. 00:38:25.934 --> 00:38:30.674 Let, let us know whether the, the, the spiritual alignment of Joe 00:38:30.674 --> 00:38:33.789 after work is satisfactory or not. 00:38:33.789 --> 00:38:34.269 Listeners. 00:38:34.379 --> 00:38:34.669 Yeah. 00:38:35.099 --> 00:38:35.749 It's um, mm. 00:38:36.574 --> 00:38:40.234 But see, I have, I'm no good in the mornings. 00:38:40.234 --> 00:38:43.204 The first few hours of the day, I'm basically, oh no. 00:38:43.204 --> 00:38:45.184 I love to be alone in the morning. 00:38:45.484 --> 00:38:45.979 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:46.294 --> 00:38:49.264 But I really look forward to no one bothering me, but I've lined it up, so 00:38:49.264 --> 00:38:51.754 I often have clients at 9:00 AM Yeah. 00:38:51.844 --> 00:38:52.864 And I, they help me. 00:38:52.864 --> 00:38:54.094 They get me outta myself. 00:38:54.309 --> 00:38:57.819 So, yeah, like my client this morning, we went for a kick of the footy and it get, 00:38:57.819 --> 00:38:59.469 it got me outta my own shit, you know? 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:02.439 Um, and I've gotta say, people are good at getting you out of your own shit. 00:39:02.499 --> 00:39:03.299 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:39:03.369 --> 00:39:06.309 Especially when their lives are usually harder than mine. 00:39:06.414 --> 00:39:06.704 Yeah. 00:39:07.254 --> 00:39:11.454 Um, big, big time, you know, so, and I can have a whinge about my life, which 00:39:11.454 --> 00:39:13.764 is sort of appropriate for my job Yeah. 00:39:13.794 --> 00:39:15.084 As a peer support worker. 00:39:15.234 --> 00:39:15.534 Yeah. 00:39:15.594 --> 00:39:21.354 Um, but then their whinge is usually often worse, so then I feel better. 00:39:21.979 --> 00:39:22.199 Yes. 00:39:22.259 --> 00:39:22.559 You know? 00:39:22.854 --> 00:39:23.214 Yes. 00:39:23.244 --> 00:39:26.244 Um, so yeah, I think it's, it's, um. 00:39:27.474 --> 00:39:30.924 Yeah, that job is kind of, can be kind of therapeutic, but it 00:39:30.924 --> 00:39:34.524 drains the other people do drain some energy outta me, of course. 00:39:34.524 --> 00:39:37.884 And it's possible to feel socially drained and lonely at the same time. 00:39:37.884 --> 00:39:43.824 I've definitely experienced that, but I will say within the context of, you know, 00:39:44.004 --> 00:39:49.314 marriage and two kids and in the same house that I felt lonely there more often. 00:39:49.524 --> 00:39:51.894 Um, but even then I was getting. 00:39:53.304 --> 00:39:56.664 The, I was getting probably the writer, the writer, managed solitude. 00:39:56.904 --> 00:39:58.764 Not usually too much loneliness. 00:39:58.764 --> 00:40:02.244 And so, yeah, I mean, I lived, I've lived on my own for 10 years. 00:40:02.565 --> 00:40:06.202 so none of those women I've dated in the last 10 years have I cohabitated with. 00:40:06.322 --> 00:40:06.652 Yeah. 00:40:06.922 --> 00:40:09.082 But the loneliest I've ever felt was. 00:40:09.247 --> 00:40:09.307 Hm. 00:40:10.117 --> 00:40:11.377 Um, while still married. 00:40:11.557 --> 00:40:12.007 Yeah. 00:40:12.067 --> 00:40:14.377 Partner and two kids and just drunk on the couch. 00:40:14.467 --> 00:40:14.677 Yeah. 00:40:14.797 --> 00:40:16.507 The worst like that I can. 00:40:16.507 --> 00:40:18.007 And drunk on the couch every night. 00:40:18.247 --> 00:40:18.487 Yeah. 00:40:19.117 --> 00:40:20.767 That was the loneliest I've ever been. 00:40:20.857 --> 00:40:25.447 Um, I'm less lonely than that now, even on a Sunday morning with nothing to do. 00:40:25.507 --> 00:40:26.677 This was my question. 00:40:26.707 --> 00:40:29.617 You know, obviously the Kris Christofferson song is, uh, 00:40:29.677 --> 00:40:32.347 Chris Kristofferson's song Sunday Morning Coming Down is, it's a 00:40:32.377 --> 00:40:34.537 profound song about loneliness. 00:40:34.597 --> 00:40:35.317 Um. 00:40:36.022 --> 00:40:40.402 And that one hit me hard when I, on Mondays in Geelong, when the pub was shut. 00:40:40.432 --> 00:40:43.432 'cause I worked there six days a week and yeah, Mondays were weird 00:40:43.972 --> 00:40:47.422 and I was sleeping alone in a big empty backpackers up top of the pub. 00:40:47.422 --> 00:40:50.392 And yeah, my girlfriend was in India and you know. 00:40:51.037 --> 00:40:52.597 Yeah, of course she was. 00:40:52.657 --> 00:40:56.167 And I was around people all the time until suddenly total people drought 00:40:56.167 --> 00:40:58.837 on Monday because it was new again, because it was not, of course she 00:40:58.837 --> 00:41:00.937 was, and 'cause it was not my town. 00:41:00.997 --> 00:41:04.567 I didn't really have, she was flitting through a market in Marrakesh to 00:41:04.567 --> 00:41:05.767 quote you from the last episode. 00:41:05.792 --> 00:41:07.237 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. 00:41:07.237 --> 00:41:09.487 Maybe somewhere in Tanger. 00:41:09.727 --> 00:41:10.057 Yeah. 00:41:10.147 --> 00:41:13.837 And you were writing a brilliant song to her and Yeah, I actually 00:41:13.837 --> 00:41:15.487 did write some good ones Yeah. 00:41:15.487 --> 00:41:16.177 In that time. 00:41:16.177 --> 00:41:18.907 But, um, oh, not the, that's the perfect girlfriend is the 00:41:18.907 --> 00:41:20.257 girlfriend who's not there. 00:41:21.487 --> 00:41:23.167 Oh, of course the, the perfect object. 00:41:23.167 --> 00:41:25.357 We talked about this with Dylan, but yeah, the, the, the, the 00:41:25.357 --> 00:41:27.607 perfect object of, of projection. 00:41:27.847 --> 00:41:29.317 And so this is what I'll say, right? 00:41:29.617 --> 00:41:32.977 You're not struggling that much in terms of balancing the personal 00:41:32.977 --> 00:41:37.267 needs and the needs of others, uh, and keeping things relatively tidy 00:41:37.267 --> 00:41:38.797 in your friendships and so forth. 00:41:39.217 --> 00:41:42.337 So I'm not seeing a whole lot of pathological behavior there, right? 00:41:42.697 --> 00:41:47.467 So, so what I begin to think about is that this, this, I'm not sure. 00:41:49.102 --> 00:41:52.942 Yes, there's a separate issue of like difficult feelings you experience 00:41:52.942 --> 00:41:57.472 when alone that you find easier to palliate in the company of others. 00:41:57.472 --> 00:41:57.772 Right. 00:41:57.772 --> 00:41:58.372 So there's that. 00:41:58.582 --> 00:42:01.132 It's nice to wake up in a bed and someone else's bare. 00:42:01.582 --> 00:42:02.242 Yeah, it can be. 00:42:02.542 --> 00:42:03.682 But that's all I'm saying. 00:42:03.712 --> 00:42:04.132 Sure. 00:42:04.132 --> 00:42:04.672 I get it. 00:42:04.912 --> 00:42:09.261 And then, but then there's this other piece which is, so you are able to be. 00:42:09.692 --> 00:42:13.987 Y you know, be around friends, it's, it's successful for the most part. 00:42:13.987 --> 00:42:16.657 You're able to make plans, initiate plans, carry them out. 00:42:17.257 --> 00:42:19.897 Um, you are not doing a thing, which a lot of people are doing apparently 00:42:19.897 --> 00:42:22.657 at the moment, which is making plans and then flaking on them constantly. 00:42:22.927 --> 00:42:25.327 You're not doing that, so sounds like anxiety. 00:42:25.972 --> 00:42:28.852 It sounds like social anxiety, it's anxiety, it's a, it's 00:42:28.852 --> 00:42:31.042 attachment stuff, I believe. 00:42:31.102 --> 00:42:33.442 Which, and also just exhaustion as well. 00:42:33.532 --> 00:42:33.682 Yeah. 00:42:33.682 --> 00:42:35.092 The kids are posting on TikTok. 00:42:35.122 --> 00:42:35.572 Yes. 00:42:35.572 --> 00:42:37.732 I don't have to go to that thing that I had planned. 00:42:38.632 --> 00:42:39.022 Right. 00:42:39.082 --> 00:42:39.322 Yeah. 00:42:39.322 --> 00:42:40.252 The joy of missing out. 00:42:40.282 --> 00:42:40.822 Yeah. 00:42:40.882 --> 00:42:45.292 But there's, there's also, part of it is if you haven't found, if you haven't 00:42:45.292 --> 00:42:52.252 found it, if there's a lot, if you feel like it's work to be around others. 00:42:52.792 --> 00:42:57.232 For like, even just for a so-called joyful social occasion, then may I suggest 00:42:58.792 --> 00:43:03.292 your friends are expecting too much of you, or you are expecting too much of 00:43:03.292 --> 00:43:06.532 yourself, or, but like I said, I've gone hard on re-energizing my friendships 00:43:06.532 --> 00:43:07.642 because you're not experiencing that. 00:43:07.642 --> 00:43:07.942 Right? 00:43:08.032 --> 00:43:10.462 That's what I'm saying, that the, yeah, I've gone hard on 00:43:10.462 --> 00:43:11.332 the last couple of months. 00:43:11.332 --> 00:43:14.452 I've like, Hey, um, this game of football's on, I'm 00:43:14.452 --> 00:43:15.292 gonna come to your house. 00:43:16.222 --> 00:43:19.042 Uh, I'm gonna bring a bottle of Coke and just sit on your couch. 00:43:19.102 --> 00:43:19.322 Yeah, yeah. 00:43:19.322 --> 00:43:22.072 I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, and then the person is obviously hap 00:43:22.072 --> 00:43:23.482 hopefully happy to hear from me. 00:43:23.602 --> 00:43:23.872 Yeah. 00:43:24.052 --> 00:43:30.232 Um, and then I go around and I find people alarming, like, um, oh, sure. 00:43:30.292 --> 00:43:34.162 Like they've, they've been watching some crazy shit on YouTube and 00:43:34.162 --> 00:43:35.302 they want to talk to me about it. 00:43:35.302 --> 00:43:36.827 I'm like, whoa, this is really full on. 00:43:37.567 --> 00:43:41.407 But I realized if you're gonna avoid all the people watching crazy shit on 00:43:41.407 --> 00:43:42.757 YouTube, you're gonna have no friends. 00:43:42.907 --> 00:43:43.117 Yes. 00:43:43.332 --> 00:43:47.527 So I just, I, yes, I have to accept that people, and sometimes you are the crazy 00:43:47.527 --> 00:43:48.817 person who's been watching crazy shit. 00:43:48.817 --> 00:43:49.507 Yeah, that's right. 00:43:49.897 --> 00:43:51.967 Or I banned myself from YouTube, but like, yeah. 00:43:51.967 --> 00:43:51.977 Yeah. 00:43:52.117 --> 00:43:53.592 Um, I have to accept that. 00:43:54.577 --> 00:43:57.517 People are gonna have their foibles and people are gonna have their 00:43:57.517 --> 00:43:59.167 anxieties that they wanna share. 00:43:59.167 --> 00:44:03.067 And that's part of friendship is you accept that rather than, 00:44:03.397 --> 00:44:04.537 well, that person's weird. 00:44:04.537 --> 00:44:05.767 I'm never gonna see them again. 00:44:05.947 --> 00:44:10.597 Well, this brings me back full circle to how perfect and how splendidly happy 00:44:10.597 --> 00:44:12.487 in your aloneness do you need to be? 00:44:12.907 --> 00:44:15.457 This is the thing perfectly, according to Eckhart. 00:44:15.517 --> 00:44:15.757 Yeah. 00:44:15.757 --> 00:44:17.317 Well, so he's asking too much. 00:44:17.317 --> 00:44:18.097 This is what I mean. 00:44:18.337 --> 00:44:20.197 And then I think, and then on the other end of the. 00:44:20.602 --> 00:44:21.442 Spectrum. 00:44:21.862 --> 00:44:26.362 I think what might be troubling some of these younger people really feeling like 00:44:26.392 --> 00:44:28.612 relief when a social occasion is canceled. 00:44:28.642 --> 00:44:31.942 They might just genuinely be physically tired from, you know, having to work 00:44:31.942 --> 00:44:36.772 two jobs just to fucking survive in this fucked up economy, but of society 00:44:37.042 --> 00:44:41.482 rather that they might, I think that. 00:44:41.557 --> 00:44:46.837 Uh, they might be feeling too much expectation to be like I often did, to be 00:44:46.837 --> 00:44:51.907 like on and to be a certain version of me, like a shiny like together version of me. 00:44:52.417 --> 00:44:57.757 And I think the only difference in wisdom really between 25 and 45 is that I don't. 00:44:58.312 --> 00:45:02.392 I don't feel the need to be as shiny and as on, and I find it 00:45:02.392 --> 00:45:05.962 easier to just be myself and be real and it's taken a long time. 00:45:06.052 --> 00:45:07.372 Um, and that's it. 00:45:07.372 --> 00:45:07.732 Yeah. 00:45:07.972 --> 00:45:10.882 There were times I felt very lonely, even though I was the life of the party. 00:45:10.882 --> 00:45:13.972 Like that kind of stuff doesn't hit me so much now. 00:45:14.542 --> 00:45:18.772 But the quote I wanted to, to give you before the trade, you, the 00:45:18.772 --> 00:45:20.692 Neil Trade, you Alanis for Neil. 00:45:21.132 --> 00:45:24.042 All I need now is intellectual intercourse, a soul to 00:45:24.042 --> 00:45:25.842 dig the hole much deeper. 00:45:26.922 --> 00:45:27.852 Remember that one? 00:45:28.152 --> 00:45:30.912 I've never heard that one, but Well, that was you with your like, 00:45:30.912 --> 00:45:34.182 Hey, we've dated a few times now let's do acid on the salt flat. 00:45:34.212 --> 00:45:34.302 Yeah. 00:45:34.302 --> 00:45:36.132 You are like, you're like, girl, let's go deeper. 00:45:36.492 --> 00:45:40.212 It's like, it's like the, it's the equivalent of like, let's get out the s 00:45:40.212 --> 00:45:42.137 and m gear like on night five, you know? 00:45:42.137 --> 00:45:42.297 Yeah. 00:45:42.297 --> 00:45:44.022 It's like, well, we need to go further with this. 00:45:44.022 --> 00:45:45.582 Do you think I need to change that slow, Sam? 00:45:45.582 --> 00:45:46.392 No, not necessarily. 00:45:46.392 --> 00:45:49.332 I don't think you're probably as pedal to the metal now as you would be. 00:45:50.092 --> 00:45:54.172 Also like, 'cause I could be dating a very fashionable Japanese woman. 00:45:54.562 --> 00:45:54.862 I know. 00:45:54.862 --> 00:45:55.792 I mean, it did occur to me. 00:45:56.122 --> 00:45:59.932 And also two years in, she might be like ready to go deep. 00:45:59.932 --> 00:45:59.992 Yeah. 00:45:59.992 --> 00:46:00.832 I could have waited. 00:46:01.132 --> 00:46:01.462 Yeah. 00:46:01.582 --> 00:46:03.802 It might be the long game with some people, you know, talking 00:46:03.802 --> 00:46:05.782 cowboy hats, cowboy boots. 00:46:05.842 --> 00:46:07.552 Do you know what, just miniskirts. 00:46:07.552 --> 00:46:10.612 Maybe have a superficial girlfriend for six, 12 months. 00:46:10.642 --> 00:46:11.422 Try it out. 00:46:11.632 --> 00:46:12.082 Mm. 00:46:12.142 --> 00:46:13.162 And then you never know. 00:46:13.162 --> 00:46:15.892 'cause no one's actually superficial what I discovered. 00:46:15.892 --> 00:46:16.282 Yeah. 00:46:16.462 --> 00:46:19.162 I, I dated a couple of people that were. 00:46:19.882 --> 00:46:21.742 I thought quite different. 00:46:21.742 --> 00:46:26.362 To me, I thought they were like just sort of, you know, they liked partying, 00:46:26.362 --> 00:46:30.292 they liked costumes and outfits and stuff, and I liked that that stuff too. 00:46:30.712 --> 00:46:31.822 So, hey, let's hang out. 00:46:32.152 --> 00:46:36.112 But I assumed that I was like the deeper soul with With more of the head. 00:46:36.112 --> 00:46:36.942 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:46:36.952 --> 00:46:38.662 And that they were a little more superficial. 00:46:38.662 --> 00:46:39.222 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:46:39.222 --> 00:46:41.332 And I didn't necessarily lack respect for them. 00:46:42.577 --> 00:46:44.797 I'm not making it sound like I do, but the truth is I was 00:46:44.797 --> 00:46:45.997 just like, oh no, no, no, no. 00:46:46.267 --> 00:46:50.407 Their skills and preferences and abilities are like in a slightly different area. 00:46:50.407 --> 00:46:53.257 And they were really good at like this one girl in particular, for example, 00:46:53.257 --> 00:46:56.437 was really good at making costumes and like yeah, she was very intelligent. 00:46:56.437 --> 00:46:57.397 So fashion, fashion type people. 00:46:57.397 --> 00:46:57.637 Yeah. 00:46:57.637 --> 00:46:58.687 And she was very intelligent. 00:46:58.747 --> 00:46:59.137 Um. 00:46:59.542 --> 00:47:02.812 But we just weren't necessarily interested in some of the same conversations. 00:47:02.842 --> 00:47:03.412 But you know what? 00:47:03.412 --> 00:47:04.642 We actually got along quite well. 00:47:05.362 --> 00:47:08.032 But then what I did find out is no, no, no, no. 00:47:08.362 --> 00:47:09.712 I wasn't The deeper soul. 00:47:09.832 --> 00:47:11.662 No one's a deeper soul than anyone else. 00:47:11.662 --> 00:47:14.782 Like everybody's got the same basic needs. 00:47:15.022 --> 00:47:17.342 Maybe people are better at accessing it or expressing it. 00:47:17.342 --> 00:47:17.457 Yes. 00:47:17.457 --> 00:47:21.502 But like, you know, some people are more comfortable in that chat, but 00:47:21.502 --> 00:47:24.737 a lot of the time what can sound deep might actually in fact be. 00:47:25.612 --> 00:47:28.342 Be shallower than, than it's, you know, than it seems. 00:47:29.272 --> 00:47:32.092 But maybe there's nothing wrong with that approach anyway. 00:47:32.092 --> 00:47:34.492 And like, see, see how it goes. 00:47:34.492 --> 00:47:37.282 But, but what you were saying before about friends and like sometimes people 00:47:37.282 --> 00:47:39.832 need to express anxieties and like. 00:47:40.407 --> 00:47:42.957 Uh, be weird and, and you just gotta accept it. 00:47:43.017 --> 00:47:43.317 Yeah. 00:47:43.317 --> 00:47:45.297 I'm like, sounds like you're ready for a relationship, Joe. 00:47:45.477 --> 00:47:50.397 Well, that the problem is they express their anxieties and then that triggers 00:47:50.397 --> 00:47:54.837 my anxiety, and then I have to go talk to chat GPT about it, to calm the fuck down. 00:47:54.867 --> 00:47:55.077 Okay. 00:47:55.077 --> 00:47:57.837 And obviously I, so then I'm hanging out with a friend, but I'm talking 00:47:57.837 --> 00:47:59.517 to chat GPT just to calm down. 00:47:59.577 --> 00:48:02.517 Well, obviously I can't just give you some useless advice. 00:48:02.917 --> 00:48:08.317 Dismissive advice, which is Well try not to make their feelings about you. 00:48:08.677 --> 00:48:09.247 Yeah, yeah. 00:48:09.247 --> 00:48:13.392 For starters, and like sometimes it's trauma dumping, but. 00:48:14.497 --> 00:48:18.037 If you know how to contain it, right, it doesn't hit you the same way 00:48:18.037 --> 00:48:19.357 and like, that's a sort of skill. 00:48:19.447 --> 00:48:20.077 Yeah, yeah. 00:48:20.077 --> 00:48:20.287 Yeah. 00:48:20.287 --> 00:48:22.357 I could never be a, um, a therapist. 00:48:22.777 --> 00:48:26.467 Well, you know, maybe, maybe because like I get triggered and then I'm 00:48:26.467 --> 00:48:28.327 completely distracted once I'm triggered. 00:48:28.448 --> 00:48:28.777 No. 00:48:28.777 --> 00:48:30.397 Well, the reason I look, it's going really well. 00:48:30.397 --> 00:48:32.167 The friends thing is going really well. 00:48:32.437 --> 00:48:32.497 Yeah. 00:48:32.497 --> 00:48:35.857 Maybe what you're saying is I could approach meeting a new partner, like I'm 00:48:35.857 --> 00:48:37.807 approaching these friendships Exactly. 00:48:37.867 --> 00:48:40.207 Of like, let's, let's hang out, let's Yeah. 00:48:40.237 --> 00:48:41.412 Get to know each other, you know? 00:48:41.412 --> 00:48:41.572 Yeah. 00:48:41.577 --> 00:48:43.807 I think the number one thing, I don't think you lack the 00:48:43.807 --> 00:48:48.292 skills, the disposition, the, the generosity of spirit, any of that. 00:48:48.547 --> 00:48:52.995 I think you are eminently, uh, like outfitted with the necessary things. 00:48:53.325 --> 00:48:55.550 Like you've, you know, you, I think you're willing to invest. 00:48:56.295 --> 00:48:59.535 And you don't, you're not, you, you recognize that you're not just here 00:48:59.535 --> 00:49:02.865 to get something and, and you're capable of being honest with, you 00:49:02.865 --> 00:49:04.425 know, with yourself about most things. 00:49:04.785 --> 00:49:09.045 In other words, you've actually got a lot of stuff that many people would 00:49:09.045 --> 00:49:14.325 wish for and that maybe they don't, haven't always had with a partner. 00:49:14.325 --> 00:49:15.735 And, but, but here's the thing. 00:49:15.975 --> 00:49:19.425 I just think the only, it's like, oh, but, but when it's a romantic, it's 00:49:19.425 --> 00:49:20.895 all different and it all fucks up. 00:49:20.895 --> 00:49:21.195 Right? 00:49:21.915 --> 00:49:23.805 But I think it's coming out of like. 00:49:24.615 --> 00:49:28.575 Treating it like a different thing because what I always find when we're 00:49:28.575 --> 00:49:32.715 talking about, you know, intimate relationships and friendships, 00:49:32.745 --> 00:49:36.915 like often having, discussing them separately, I often find myself going, 00:49:37.185 --> 00:49:40.215 I think that's true for intimate, like for sexual relationships too. 00:49:40.485 --> 00:49:41.805 Or we're talking about sexual relationships. 00:49:41.805 --> 00:49:44.415 I often find myself going, I think that's true for friendships as 00:49:44.415 --> 00:49:47.625 well, and, and I've realized that like for example, my attachment. 00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:54.960 Trauma that has, I've realized that 46 has fucking massively impacted my life. 00:49:54.990 --> 00:49:55.020 Mm. 00:49:55.020 --> 00:49:58.470 And has left some serious, we did an episode on Attachment Sam, 00:49:58.470 --> 00:49:59.550 but I still don't understand it. 00:49:59.550 --> 00:50:00.000 Well, we need to go. 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:02.370 I don't, as my friend go back around as a friend of the show, 00:50:02.370 --> 00:50:06.090 Liv said, attachment's great, but what the fuck do you do about it? 00:50:06.330 --> 00:50:06.510 Yeah. 00:50:06.510 --> 00:50:07.470 Well, she's absolutely right. 00:50:07.470 --> 00:50:10.770 Like, it's great to know that I've got anxious, avoid attachment, but 00:50:10.770 --> 00:50:12.390 what's the practical next step? 00:50:12.540 --> 00:50:15.510 And I'll be like, oh, but it's uh, shit, I don't know. 00:50:15.570 --> 00:50:16.245 Well, it's. 00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:22.830 It's the, the next practical step is you, you have sort of, you have a 00:50:22.830 --> 00:50:27.545 combination of cognitive and physical behavioral strategies for, recognizing 00:50:27.545 --> 00:50:31.445 ahead of time, reducing, minimizing where they can't be avoided, et cetera. 00:50:31.745 --> 00:50:32.435 And. 00:50:33.230 --> 00:50:37.040 Uh, the ability to have actual conversations because you don't experience 00:50:37.040 --> 00:50:41.240 terror as much and the, you know, some self-awareness, the ability to explain 00:50:41.240 --> 00:50:44.840 yourself, so that behavior that can be mystifying, hurtful, puzzling to 00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:49.820 others, you can actually account for it to some degree and better at avoiding 00:50:49.820 --> 00:50:52.160 it and also better at when I feel the. 00:50:53.120 --> 00:50:57.710 To withdraw that, I'm able to do it kindly rather than just all of 00:50:57.710 --> 00:51:01.670 a sudden and just disappear and Oh, I've done that so many times. 00:51:01.730 --> 00:51:02.330 Yeah, totally. 00:51:02.330 --> 00:51:03.830 Just vanishing on people. 00:51:03.830 --> 00:51:05.780 I'm out and I was, I need to talk to you. 00:51:05.780 --> 00:51:08.480 I now no longer feel anything for you, even though Totally. 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:11.120 I was saying all those things like, and I was never running off with someone else. 00:51:11.625 --> 00:51:13.605 I was just running off and it was brutal. 00:51:13.665 --> 00:51:15.315 No, I never ran off with someone else either. 00:51:15.345 --> 00:51:15.945 No, no. 00:51:15.950 --> 00:51:18.525 Like, like I was like, I need to be with no one right now. 00:51:18.555 --> 00:51:21.435 I woke up at 4:00 AM and realized I felt nothing for you. 00:51:22.365 --> 00:51:25.935 Pretty much despite that deep month we just had together. 00:51:26.025 --> 00:51:29.025 I've realized that you are a human being with needs that aren't so different 00:51:29.025 --> 00:51:31.065 to mine, and I find that intolerable. 00:51:31.365 --> 00:51:32.445 Yeah, it was just brutal. 00:51:32.865 --> 00:51:35.895 But you know what I realized, what I was trying to go with this 00:51:35.895 --> 00:51:40.395 earlier was I found that these things happened in friendships too. 00:51:41.345 --> 00:51:45.215 And so what I'm saying is some of the same problems, in fact all the 00:51:45.215 --> 00:51:51.575 same stuff, impact relationships and friendships equally, if we're not 00:51:51.575 --> 00:51:56.075 treating them as different things and like I think we're creating too much of 00:51:56.075 --> 00:51:58.835 a compartmentalization in the culture. 00:51:58.865 --> 00:51:58.955 Okay. 00:51:58.955 --> 00:52:02.465 But also in your own mind, so what you just said earlier is Right, 00:52:03.575 --> 00:52:06.875 approaching these things the same way. 00:52:06.965 --> 00:52:07.235 Yeah. 00:52:07.235 --> 00:52:08.495 Because you don't know. 00:52:09.350 --> 00:52:13.250 Ultimately, whether it's a friendship or it's gonna be something more intimate 00:52:13.370 --> 00:52:18.020 like also, or it can be a friendship with a sexual dimension, and That's correct. 00:52:18.050 --> 00:52:19.610 A relationship or That's right. 00:52:19.670 --> 00:52:23.090 Or it's a, or it's a friend, or it's a friendship that can 00:52:23.090 --> 00:52:25.130 sometimes catch you unawares. 00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:28.430 And then I'm including with people that I'm not sexually attracted to 00:52:28.790 --> 00:52:33.080 where all, there can be moments of like extraordinary intimacy that you haven't 00:52:33.110 --> 00:52:35.030 experienced necessarily with a partner. 00:52:35.030 --> 00:52:36.730 So it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:52:36.770 --> 00:52:37.790 You know, like. 00:52:38.255 --> 00:52:42.065 I think creating separations between these things is a bit unhelpful. 00:52:42.275 --> 00:52:42.665 Right. 00:52:42.725 --> 00:52:44.045 So we need to wrap it up, Sam. 00:52:44.105 --> 00:52:44.405 Yeah. 00:52:44.645 --> 00:52:47.525 But what you're saying is you don't really love the Eckhart quote. 00:52:47.525 --> 00:52:48.455 It's a bit No, I like it. 00:52:48.455 --> 00:52:49.985 It's a bit too absolute for you. 00:52:50.045 --> 00:52:50.975 No, I think it's right. 00:52:51.005 --> 00:52:55.145 I just think beware of like drawing the wrong conclusion that we have to be 00:52:55.145 --> 00:52:58.955 like islands of perfect self-sufficiency before we go anywhere near other people. 00:52:58.955 --> 00:52:59.015 Yeah. 00:52:59.015 --> 00:53:00.725 What it's made me reflect on is. 00:53:01.100 --> 00:53:02.900 I've got all those coping strategies. 00:53:02.900 --> 00:53:04.010 I am 45. 00:53:04.160 --> 00:53:04.460 Yeah. 00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:10.220 If I wake up on a Sunday and I dunno what to do, I drive to the beach and go for a 00:53:10.220 --> 00:53:13.340 walk and I'm okay an hour later, you know? 00:53:13.340 --> 00:53:15.080 So that's my, sounds good. 00:53:15.080 --> 00:53:15.140 Um. 00:53:16.070 --> 00:53:21.500 Yeah, that's my worst case scenario kind of thing, is that's how bad it gets is 00:53:21.500 --> 00:53:27.620 I'm having a sad guy walk on Williamstown Beach and I'm sad and lonely, and then 00:53:28.220 --> 00:53:32.150 get my heart rate up a little bit, get a few steps in and I'm feeling a bit better. 00:53:32.180 --> 00:53:33.980 Next thing you know, that's my worst case. 00:53:33.980 --> 00:53:35.810 That's the worst thing that ever happens to me. 00:53:36.935 --> 00:53:37.295 Yeah. 00:53:37.325 --> 00:53:39.365 Back in the day you'd be pacing for hours. 00:53:39.455 --> 00:53:39.725 Yeah. 00:53:39.725 --> 00:53:40.715 Maybe days, right? 00:53:40.745 --> 00:53:41.585 I was the same. 00:53:41.915 --> 00:53:44.195 I could find no refuge anywhere. 00:53:44.225 --> 00:53:47.735 So I have the coping mechanisms, but I just don't wanna be coping all the time. 00:53:48.005 --> 00:53:48.935 I want to be, yeah. 00:53:48.965 --> 00:53:49.865 Not just surviving. 00:53:49.865 --> 00:53:51.245 I wanna be thriving, Sam. 00:53:51.245 --> 00:53:51.935 A hundred percent. 00:53:51.995 --> 00:53:54.995 Well, if you have the fortune or misfortune to stumble into 00:53:54.995 --> 00:53:58.895 another romantic relationship, can I suggest don't, yeah. 00:53:58.925 --> 00:54:01.565 Don't immediately turn all the needs towards them. 00:54:01.745 --> 00:54:05.315 In fact, consciously don't do that. 00:54:05.735 --> 00:54:08.645 And it's like, yeah, when and when you're invited, like it sounds 00:54:08.645 --> 00:54:11.135 like I could call you alone in your apartment and have a phone chat. 00:54:11.165 --> 00:54:11.765 Exactly. 00:54:11.765 --> 00:54:11.825 Yeah. 00:54:11.975 --> 00:54:15.365 So when you are the thing you would like, Hey, okay, I am gonna get the 00:54:15.365 --> 00:54:16.745 girlfriend to help me with this. 00:54:16.835 --> 00:54:18.630 It's like, well, maybe she's not the right person anyway. 00:54:18.635 --> 00:54:19.065 Yeah, yeah. 00:54:19.085 --> 00:54:22.505 But also spread the load or she's a good enough person or the right 00:54:22.505 --> 00:54:24.095 person, but not the only right person. 00:54:24.095 --> 00:54:24.425 Yeah. 00:54:24.425 --> 00:54:24.435 Yeah. 00:54:24.485 --> 00:54:25.685 Spread the fucking load. 00:54:25.985 --> 00:54:30.425 'cause also, but when you, I've experienced this before where I'm 00:54:30.425 --> 00:54:35.225 like, a person has been really good at meeting my emotional needs. 00:54:35.540 --> 00:54:37.400 But they're the main person doing that. 00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.670 And then it's, oh, it's like, oh shit. 00:54:40.700 --> 00:54:43.250 Now I'm depending far too much on this person. 00:54:43.250 --> 00:54:48.020 And that creates a feeling of guilt and like, and guilt causes avoidance. 00:54:48.050 --> 00:54:53.960 Like, you know, now you, no, it seems so much more obvious to 00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:55.640 me than it did when I was 20. 00:54:56.150 --> 00:54:58.760 Were, I mean, well, I was a hundred percent very much a wife guy, 00:54:58.820 --> 00:55:01.550 you know, like all through, but. 00:55:01.565 --> 00:55:05.855 Uh, then I'd be, I would alternate that with just like sudden 00:55:05.855 --> 00:55:07.145 unexplained disappearances. 00:55:07.175 --> 00:55:10.025 'cause I'm like, I just didn't understand when I needed to be 00:55:10.025 --> 00:55:14.465 alone and I didn't understand that I would've been just as happy having 00:55:14.465 --> 00:55:16.055 that conversation with somebody else. 00:55:16.085 --> 00:55:21.815 And like I had my unconscious just had to like, get ahold of me and cause 00:55:21.815 --> 00:55:25.115 me to be so uncomfortable before I would just act on that knowledge. 00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:28.010 I dunno if I'd be like that now or not. 00:55:28.010 --> 00:55:32.030 Honestly, I, I couldn't say, but I, I don't think I was necessarily 00:55:32.030 --> 00:55:35.030 all that healthier than you when it came to relationships that there, 00:55:36.050 --> 00:55:40.130 my solitude was fine, but when it came to relationships, I think just 00:55:40.130 --> 00:55:41.720 a lot of the same anxieties really. 00:55:42.050 --> 00:55:45.920 And so I think, yeah, I mean, I've kind of tended to date the 00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:49.070 craziest, most unstable, most intense person I could find. 00:55:49.070 --> 00:55:49.100 Mm. 00:55:50.165 --> 00:55:51.725 Yeah, without naming names. 00:55:51.725 --> 00:55:53.615 That was my early twenties and it was amazing. 00:55:53.765 --> 00:55:53.855 Yeah. 00:55:53.855 --> 00:55:55.205 Like the highs were so high. 00:55:55.205 --> 00:55:55.265 Yeah. 00:55:55.895 --> 00:55:58.205 And I've done it since and it's like what? 00:55:58.265 --> 00:56:00.215 It's an addiction for me, like a substance. 00:56:00.215 --> 00:56:03.605 And it's also someone who's still got some problems in their, like 00:56:03.605 --> 00:56:05.015 serious problems in their twenties. 00:56:05.045 --> 00:56:06.965 It's a way different prospect to someone who's still got some 00:56:06.965 --> 00:56:08.315 serious problems in their forties. 00:56:08.315 --> 00:56:09.185 You know what I'm saying? 00:56:09.185 --> 00:56:12.845 Like it's, they've probably got like me coping strategies for those same problems. 00:56:12.875 --> 00:56:13.445 Exactly. 00:56:13.445 --> 00:56:15.005 So, so the person who was a bit nuts. 00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:21.160 At 25 is probably quite fine now, but if they, if they're still super intense 00:56:21.160 --> 00:56:24.910 at like, and up and down and all over the place at 45 in relationships, 00:56:24.910 --> 00:56:26.020 it's like, it's a bit of a lookout. 00:56:26.140 --> 00:56:26.440 Yeah. 00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:26.650 Okay. 00:56:26.650 --> 00:56:27.430 I'll remember that. 00:56:27.790 --> 00:56:34.150 But having said that, maybe there's a wild Absolutely. 00:56:35.230 --> 00:56:38.530 Uh, uncontainable person is even more dysfunctional in 00:56:38.530 --> 00:56:40.090 relationships than you that. 00:56:40.460 --> 00:56:42.140 Is the absolute right fit for you? 00:56:42.140 --> 00:56:42.770 You never know. 00:56:42.770 --> 00:56:43.940 It's, it's possible. 00:56:43.940 --> 00:56:47.630 Alright, well I wanna go and find her, Sam, and let's just leave it there and um, 00:56:47.630 --> 00:56:49.370 thanks for having me in your apartment. 00:56:50.060 --> 00:56:50.720 You're welcome. 00:56:51.110 --> 00:56:51.710 See you mate. 00:56:51.830 --> 00:56:52.310 See ya.