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Aviation, what is going on? And welcome back to the Pilot to Pilot Podcast. My name is Justin Siems, and I am your host. Today's episode is a Textron Aviation episode, and big thanks to Textron Aviation for sponsoring the Pilot Pilot Podcast. This week, I'm joined by Jason Rhode, who shares the story of how he unconventionally entered the aviation space with the help of our friends at Textron Aviation.
I'm really excited for this episode to be released. I personally have flown what feels like almost every single aircraft Textron Aviation manufactured and has made, and my favorite, as everyone knows, is the one eighty two. I would love to have a one eighty two, you know, maybe a two zero six. You know, let's see let's see how the podcast goes. But aviation, I'm so excited to release Jason's episode.
It's awesome to see how textured aviation and business aviation can help someone in their professional career and also in their personal life. So I look forward to sharing this episode. Thank you so much. And without any further ado, here's Jason Rhode. Jason, what's going on, man?
Welcome to the Pilot to Pilot podcast.
Jason: Thanks for having me. Going on
Justin: Yeah. I'm excited to to have you on. I'm excited to share your aviation story. As you kinda mentioned in the intro, you know, this wasn't necessarily your goal. Right?
You didn't wake up as a kid one day or look up to the sky and be like, hey, there's an airplane, I wanna fly that. Right? This kinda came, flying the airlines and you realized there's gotta be a better way. Right? There has to be a better way.
And you found yourself flying your own airplanes, which I think is really cool because most people I've had on here, it's let's be honest, they're all professional pilots wanna fly for the airlines and they are looking at the skies thinking that's what I wanna do. But I think it's really cool that you have this story, so I look forward to to digging into that.
Jason: Sounds good. Yeah.
Justin: Yeah. It was like, I came to
Jason: it differently, that's for sure.
Justin: Yeah. But let's go ahead and talk about it. How I mean, obviously, you you mentioned the airlines, but without getting like too negative about the airlines because everyone has their own negative negative story about the airlines. But, you know, it's one thing of saying like, alright, cool. I'm gonna go fly something else, but there's nothing that actually going to do it.
Can you talk about the steps you took to actually, you know, make sure you do it? Like, how'd you find a flight school? How'd you find an airplane? How'd you do all that stuff?
Jason: Right. Well, so I had taken that interim step of thinking, you know, I'll just own a private jet and have some other guys fly it and then we'll use Charter to help keep it busy, offset some of the cost with the Lear 60, it didn't turn out that great. It turned out the more more you fly that, the more money you lose. But I just started hanging out with my pilots and being around the airplane and being in that space and just seeing what it's like going to these little airports in the middle of nowhere and just how efficient it was, how much more just reliable and whatnot than than being at the air at the mercy of the airlines. And I took a trip somewhere with one of our finance guys and he had just gotten his private license and he had four flight out and we're in my plane in the back.
And he showed me ForeFlight and how it all works. I was just like, wow. I love that. That's cool. That remains, incidentally, the the best piece of software I've ever used on any platform for any reason ever.
I just I don't even think I would have liked flying it. I don't think I would have gotten through the first few years without ForeFlight. Don't use it as much now with the avionics in the CJ3 plus but still it's a pretty powerful platform. So I went back to Austin after seeing his ForeFlight and all that and I took a Discovery flight. This is in I think June 2017.
And I was kind of hooked, but it's Austin and, you know, the flight school, there was kinda one sensible one there at Austin Berkshire. The guy's been around for a million years, was twenty five thousand hours in a January. And so I took a few classes from his school, but, you know, pre flight in the one seventy two when it's a 105 degrees outside, it's not cool.
Justin: Not ideal, not ideal.
Jason: Yeah. So I one day I had this lesson and I stopped back by the outfit that was managing my plane. And I I mean I was literally, you couldn't have got me more wet if you threw me in a pool, just soaked with sweat and I I go into the office there and sit down, the guy that runs the place, he just looked at me, he's like, what are you doing? You know, I think you can afford a plane. Some of them have air conditioning.
And I'm like, interesting. Okay. And I'm like, but how am I gonna he's like, don't worry about it. We got maintenance, we'll take care of it. I got a couple of guys that are really good instructors.
And I'm so thankful for that, because one, was what I ended up buying was a DA 40 with air conditioning. It was like seven or eight years old. And it's a delightful plane to fly, but it's it's different when you own a plane. I mean, I'm not knocking the standard schools and the experience you get there, you also need to learn if you're gonna really use it, you need to learn how to own a plane in addition to flying it. And the instructor that I ended up connected to was one of these gold sealed guys, doesn't need to do it, just loves doing it, tons and tons of instructing hours.
And so he got me through the private thing and we hopped all around Texas in different airports and whatnot. And then when I got to the instrument rating, hired a different kid, kind of stolen from the flight school and just said, hey, I wanna get through this thing fast. Let's just you're on call. Anytime I can fly, we're gonna go. And the coolest kind of winter of yeah, February 2018.
And it's a miss it's really weird to me that you can get your instrument rating without ever having flown in actual instrument conditions because it's just not the same as, you know, wearing the toggles and whatnot. Yeah. But this guy was great. He wanted the hours, he wanted the pay, I wanted the hours and so every time it was cloudy, we'd go up and we'd file to be just right in the middle of the 5,000 foot, you know, the cloud deck and it's not it's Texas, so it's pretty rare in that time of year you're getting ice. And so I had a got a ton of actual hours and I never would have been able to do that with a flight school plane.
But in this case, it was kinda all up to our discretion and knocked that out and and then, you know, it's kinda released into the wild.
Justin: Yeah. That's when you talk about training in the South, I think it's one of the benefits. Right? So I went to Columbus, I went to Ohio State, I tried flying in the wintertime, I probably flew like once in like four months because the freezing level just sits at the ground. It's like cool where it's ice everywhere.
Whereas you know, as we know, you go to the South, you can fly 3,000, 5,000 feet and you get close to it, but you're not in the icing level
Jason: Yeah.
Justin: Or the freezing level Right. Which is awesome. Yeah. That's a great setup. I mean, conditioning, I mean, especially in in Texas.
There's been I've been sitting in the back of a plane just cooking in Texas waiting to take off. Especially at a place like Austin, right? You might be like number 10 for takeoff. So you there's so much of your time right there just cooking right there. So having a an air conditioning is is unbelievable.
Jason: Yeah. You always see little guys with their doors kinda cracked open. Oh,
Justin: I used to stick my hand out a little window, just try to direct some air in there. It'd be like, oh, yeah. Please please. Yeah. I've been there.
Aviation, it obviously wasn't necessary, like your first love, your true love. But have you found it has it happened to where you have kind of maybe caught the bug or have you actually truly fallen in love with flying itself?
Jason: I I think I I for sure went through that phase. Right? When when you first get into it, you're in that discovery flight and then you do your solo and you're, it it is that is a wicked addiction. That is really hard to balance with whatever else I found it really hard to balance with whatever else you're doing. I was running a public company at the time, so took a lot took a lot of vacation days in that in that phase of things.
I think where it settled out to me now, I mean, you kinda touched on, I did not grow up like thinking I'll be a pilot, do this stuff, dreaming of being in the sky, it just never really even occurred to me. I'm hugely passionate about things with big engines, but for most of my life there were things that were on the ground and went fast rather than in the air and went fast. I think I would put it more of it's just really satisfying. Know, it is you know, I mentioned the motorcycle trips. It's figuring out how to okay, we're gonna go to Philadelphia, we're gonna do whatever it is, know, how am I gonna get I'm gonna need a fuel stop and where should I where should we go and which airport should we use and you know, what's the weather looking like and just thinking through all the stuff that you need to do to be safe and then the time efficiency that you gain from doing that is just incredible.
So the it's it's very satisfying at this point. It's it's I'm I'm not I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with it anymore the way that I was when I was learning. But I still enjoy it. And I mean, where my wife and I, our lifestyle is such that it would be very difficult to live the way that we do if I wasn't able to fly us around. Because we spend half the year in Telluride in Colorado and half the year or a little less than half the year in Santa Rosa, California.
Neither one of which are big airports in Telluride's kind of its own thing. Getting in and out of there. I mean, we literally picked it because it's easy for us to get there and it's hard for everybody else. So yeah, it's kind of a mix of things. It is fun, but it's really useful and it's also super satisfying.
Justin: Was there any hesitancy with your wife at all? You know, like, people can look at aviation and be like, this is, you know, if you don't know much about it, just think it's dangerous. Right? You hear stories about things happening, but was there any kind of like, you don't need to do it. Like, you don't need to do this.
Right? Like, we can afford to to fly. We can afford to charter. Like, you don't have to do this. Was there any of that?
Jason: Not I don't remember there being much of that. It was a different wife. But I don't know. My my that was my penultimate wife, the final wife. She might have tried to talk me out of it because she's not a huge fan of flying.
When she does fly, she would much prefer if I was sitting in the bag with her. The dog feels the same way. Actually, she's not a big fan of flying either. But again, I mean, it just our lifestyle wouldn't work without it at least it would be staggeringly more expensive without it.
Justin: You're right. Yeah, no, absolutely.
Jason: I get I get that mindset, but you can always point out it's like, okay, if we're going to drive at the time, maybe drive from Austin to Telluride, assuming you're well trained and you're in a well equipped airplane that's suitable for the mission, I'd be shocked to know that I'd be shocked to learn that driving is safer. It's very unlikely. Two lane roads across West Texas where you a 100% everybody's gonna be speeding.
Justin: Yeah. 100%. Yeah. You mentioned the D a 40. I'm guessing, as we're talking now, that's not the final plane that you have.
That's not the current plane you have. What kinda came next? And when you thought about airplanes, were you thinking kind of the big picture? Were you thinking of, you know, a a brand that has the ability to transition you from like, you know, one seventy two or one eighty two to a three ten or a light jet or the bigger jet? Was that kind of the in the back of your mind the goal that you had or you just kinda like, oh, this plane is cool, let me get that.
Oh, hey, this plane is cool, let me get that.
Jason: Well, so having had the DA 40, I kinda thought at the time I was thinking well, the time I was thinking, okay, we'll keep the Lear and that's what we use for real trips or whatever, but this is kind of fun. But at the same time there's places you can't get in and out of with a Lear and I really liked that DA 40 and so I thought, somebody showed me an article about, at the time it was a fairly new plane, the DA 62, a twin And I thought, that's gonna be the final plane, that's gonna be amazing. You could get to Northern Utah from Austin in five hours, no you can't. And so I ended up they were hard to buy at the time. Didn't there weren't very many of them in The US.
I ended up buying a used one that was literally serial number 10 and
Justin: No way. That's weird.
Jason: Don't know. It was the first one. Was the one on the cover of Flying magazine when it was new and it was the first one in The US. And somebody had flown it around for a while and I bought it from them, him, whoever it was. And serial number 10 is a low serial number in an airplane that is brand new in every aspect, right?
Totally different engine, all the things. Neat plane, fun to fly, super loud. I mean, it's funny because it's hard on the ground, they're so quiet. You know, you hit the button and it starts itself, you got the cockpit open, there's the propellers right there, really quiet and they stay you fall for that and you're like, oh, it was amazing, so quiet. And but when you're in the air, it's loud.
Interesting. Two propellers, you know, a few feet from your head. So it's and then, you know, you learn, well, okay, it would be five hours to Northern Utah but of course you're gonna have a fuel stop and of course it's the west. So the afternoon is gonna be super bumpy, so you slow down, there's probably thunderstorms you're going around. So now it's seven hours.
And yeah, no. And serial number 10, that's a lot of innovation in one package that it just there were a lot of things that I had to deal with. I think maybe they've got some maybe they got a lot of that sorted out now, but let me just tell you when your spouse is in the seat next to you and you look out and there's like coolant streaming down the side of the nasal, Don't worry about that. It's fine. It's not really what they wanna hear.
And it was fine, but it was a pain in the neck.
Justin: Yeah. You're like, it happens all the time. I promise you it's okay.
Jason: Yeah. Exactly. So it's like, shoot, that was a swing and a miss. So that that one I regret except for I did get the I got the multi rating because of that, which came in super handy later when we made the to change to Jaz. That one for sure at the time was not the right answer.
But it at least, you know, I had a fifty hour dual time requirement from insurance to be able to step up with that. Insurance companies do not love twins, twin propeller planes and I kind of get that in hindsight. But it gave me an I got enough. I got up to about two hundred and seventy, two hundred and eighty hours total and learned about TBMs and that, I did a little demo flight with a guy and I'm like, okay, this feels more right. This is a plane that has been around for a very long time and every few years they update it, upgrade it, make it better, make it more polished, whatever.
And it's just there's there's a ton of evolution there, not a ton of revolution. And I was really lucky, this is fall of twenty eighteen and like if I'd waited six or nine months later, never would have been able to get insurance. But it just happened to still be a really soft market and again, they gave me another fifty hour duel And of course, this simulator training and all that, which the simulator for a TBM is not amazing. The versus what the jets are. It's like night and day.
Yep. Big difference. So but I I in a lot of ways, that was a really great airplane for me and I literally never got on another commercial flight in The US after that. I took that thing all over the country. I used my fifty hour duel.
They're like, hey, let's go to Telluride, let's go to Aspen, let's go to Vail, let's do all the tricky approaches, let's nibble around the edges on bad weather and learn about that. And then, I mean, if you're doing a lot of flying in the mountains, it's really great airplane. You can get in and out of, you know, little short runways even at altitude like Steamboat Springs. It was really great. But one day, my now wife and I are coming back from Cape Cod, I think it's yeah, Cape Cod to Telluride and we had a 100 knot headwind.
And 300 knots with a 100 knot headwind makes for a very long day when you're going most of way across I the think we had three fuel stops and I was so tired. And at the time, I should mention, I had a Kodiak also.
Justin: Okay.
Jason: Which is a whole different story, super fun. And I was like, wait a minute, if we didn't have both the Kodiak and the TBM which was kind of having a hard time keeping current on both of them, then maybe we could get an M2. And started exploring around on that, like, okay, doesn't seem like it's that big of an upgrade on paper, you know, it's not it's a much bigger upgrade than it looks like on paper. Like that's the funniest thing. I used to spend a lot of time on the TBM OPA and now of course on CJP.
It's always on TBM, there was always the debate about like, Oh, really, you know, light jets, is that really that big of an upgrade? Yes. Yes, is. In every way. You're so much higher.
I mean, you still get a 100 knot headwinds, but if you're going 400 knots, that's a lot less of a big deal than if you're going 300 knots, you know. And being over the weather Being over the weather is huge, having heated leading edges is huge. I mean, it's so much quieter, it's so much more comfortable, the cabin pressurizes to a lower altitude. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. And I noticed at one point in the flight they took me on in the M2, I'm like, we're climbing at my cruise speed, right?
So there's a half an hour so you know, if you're going to 41,000 in M2, you're probably gonna spend better part of thirty minutes getting there. But you're going the TBM's cruise speed while you're doing that, pretty close. So I mean it really is a much bigger upgrade. They should the marketing folks should should tune up their their literature a little bit to make the comparison more what it actually is because it's it's night and day. I mean,
Justin: Did you go back to the TBM forums? You're like, hey, guys, this is much harder than you think. Like, you need to you need to really prepare for this.
Jason: Well, it's like the decision should be much easier than it is. I mean, than they seem they seem to want it to be. It's I wouldn't say it's harder. And in a way, it's easier because the sims that you get at flight safety, one, they work, right? Every single time I went to where I went to for the SIM training and the TBM, the thing was half busted.
Oh, we can't do that because this isn't work. I don't I don't I think the only thing I've ever had that was broken at flight safety was like the seat adjustment this past time. Yeah. You had to just kind of leave it where it was. That's it.
I mean, every single thing. That thing is amazing. It's the size of an apartment room and it moves around, you have to remind yourself you're in a sim so you're not pitting out, getting all stressed. It's really amazing. And so, you know, I did a few hours in the M2 with an in aircraft instructor just flying around and then went to the sim training.
It's just amazing, right? It's just such a leg up. And once I actually got to be the pilot for my own airplane, even though I had a mentor for a while, it just it was not a thing. I mean, the type rating is a thing. I think it helps a lot if you're a technical person, right?
The ground school stuff is you're in engineering mindset is not I didn't think it was especially intimidating. And the plane flies like a dream. So it's really down to can you fly the plane and run a checklist at the same time because you're gonna be a single pilot. Was
Justin: that important to you to find a single pilot plane? Like, did not wanna go any higher than that or was were you open to any kind of options?
Jason: No. I mean, I I really wanted to it's just from the convenience factor. I'm not opposed to having a a another pilot and I've occasionally, if we've had a really long flight, hire one, so I can just sit in the back and hang out with my wife because going all the way across the country, that's just more fun.
Justin: Yeah, for sure.
Jason: But no, it is important because otherwise, you either got to hire a guy, which is fine if you fly enough to justify that and that comes with some advantage as well, taking it to maintenance and this and that. But, you know, living in Telluride, well, there's nobody gonna live there and paying for them to live there would be exorbitant. It's a really expensive place to live. There's just no housing. And so you'd be flying around another guy all the time.
In in my case, it's like, you know, maybe if you lived in Wichita, you could probably find a contract pilot whenever you wanted without paying to fly him all over. But yeah, no, for sure, single pilot for a lot of reasons. I mean, CJs are just I feel like citations in general have just found the magic formula, at least in the five ten, five twenty five series, the operating cost, it's just remarkably lower. Yeah. You know, it's the fuel burn is amazing, it's, you know, all of that stuff.
So there's things that go along with the things that are single pilot that aren't necessarily single pilot in and of itself. But yeah, no, I I don't I don't really wanna fly along with somebody else. Again, not opposed to it now and again, but I don't wanna be required to do that.
Justin: Right. No. Totally get that. And I mean, that's the beauty of having being able to fly a single pilot plane. Right?
It's just to get up in your jet and go. Yeah. Then you don't have to worry about anyone else and you know you can count on yourself to get the job done. Yeah. When you got this plane, was there support from Textron Aviation?
Was it like, hey, here's a plane, go fly. Or was like, hey, here's a plane, hey, by the way, we recommend maybe, we we have a mentor pilot or we recommend, hey, this simulator is probably the better simulator to go to. We have a partnership with this team. Kinda talk about if there was any support that you got when you went through this purchase.
Jason: Oh, yeah. All the above. And so the m two, you know, we ordered a brand new one, inspected all out, super pretty, picked the the diamond stitch seating and and all of that. I don't know if you know Caleb Harshbarger. He's I don't know what his title is.
He seems like he does all sorts of stuff for Textron. Yes, Really, he's really great guy. You know, he got us hooked up with a demo flight and help you know, we went up to Wichita, picked everything out. And yeah, he so in the m two, I in my mind, you you could probably talk insurance into letting you go somewhere else, but really the only choice that makes any sense to me is flight safety. Because they have one that is it's the exact airplane.
There's no there's not a knob or a button that is different than the actual cockpit. It's very realistic. So he it's it's not always easy to get a training slot in in these outfits. And So he had that dialed in for a time that made sense to when I was gonna take delivery which was, you know, six months later. Got the delivery slot, got us all all the stuff where we picked out our paint and all the all the fun things keep you excited along the way.
And then, yeah, insurance again gave me a fifty hour fifty hour dual mentor time. And I'll circle back on insurance in just a second. But that was that was great. And yes, he I used I think I used pretty much everyone I used for that fifty hours was Textron Pilot. Learned a lot from all of them.
Mostly real similar, but everybody's always got a couple of little tips and tricks and things that you can learn from. So those guys were great. The flight safety thing is great. Not gonna lie, ground school is ground school no matter what airplane or no matter where you do it, it is no fun. But they do have they've now they didn't have it when I did the initial.
They now have an online version. So you can at least for my recurrence now, I don't have to sit there for hours and hours and hours, listen to some retired airline guy, you know, with his stories. I mean, it's a lot of time and not that much material for recurrent because it's the same plane. Hey, guess where the emergency exit is? Oh, it's in the back.
Justin: Oh, seems a lot. Alright, cool.
Jason: Yeah, I just want but the sim is incredible. I look forward to
Justin: seeing it because
Jason: in a it's just amazing. So yeah, and I mean, I should I said I'd circle back on insurance. When I wanted to go from the TBM to the M2, the insurance companies don't love jet transitions. I don't know why. It feels very irrational to me.
I think it's more about headlines like you Yeah. Jeff Jeff an issue, it's gonna be front page news and they don't wanna be the guy their boss calls going, what did you insure that guy for? Yeah. Why did you insure that? But eventually my broker found a different, you know, found a different underwriter and that just changed everything.
Like they were like, this guy's got seven hundred hours flying around in a TBM all over the country, not just flying in circles, getting hamburgers. Yeah. Bring us all the people like him all you want. That's great. So I mean, that was really because prior to that, the other guys, my existing carrier was talking about, like, oh, we gotta have four companies involved around the consortium, Bill's gonna be 6 figures for
Justin: insurance and
Jason: all that just went away when we found the right underwriter. So I wanted to mention that because if anybody is thinking about making that transition, you keep Badger and your broker, you know, get on CJP, ask people who they're using, who who worked with them during their transition and find the right guy. Because that that made all the difference.
Justin: Yeah. What was it like when you finally got to to go to Wichita to pick up your plane? You mentioned you got a brand new, like there's a lot of hype, right? You're building out, you're picking out colors, you're picking out seats, you're picking out of this. When you see it for the first time and the experience that you had doing it, it's gotta be so much different than, you know, when you when you bought your first plane, when you're go buy or when you're to go buy your Lear or whatever it may be.
Right?
Jason: Yeah. Yeah. It I mean, it's really neat. I mean, they roll out the red carpet and, you know, my wife, she did all the the picked out all the cosmetic stuff and it really was pretty. It was none of this beige, you know, kind of stuff going on.
It was it was a sharp airplane. Yeah. So yeah, it's a neat experience and, you know, walk you through all the stuff and then then I'm, you know, fly back to Austin with the mentor pilot and fly down to fly down to Tampa for the flight safety stuff. That's very cool. I mean, it was, you know, a month or so.
I hit it pretty hard to just let's get through that mentor thing quickly and also because I got a plane I get to fly, so that's cool. So yeah, we got through that
Justin: pretty right?
Jason: Yeah. It's a really exciting
Justin: I'd imagine at some point it kinda feels like, you know, this is your baby. Right? This is your jet. You're picking it up, you're flying it. When I had my four year old when we had a kid, you know, sometimes the hospital was like, alright, it's time to go.
Here's your kid. Go on your way. Is it similar when you buy a jet? Or is it like, hey, you need us, call us. We're here for you.
Like, please call us.
Jason: What was the line? Got Keanu Reeves, you got to have a license to drive a car, but any moron can have, you know, it's like I don't have children, but going home from the hospital with a new child seems like a lot scarier than an airplane.
Justin: It is, yeah. I'll
Jason: bet. No. I mean, again, you know, you've got a mentor pilot for the first fifty hours, I And, you know, Caleb would check-in on me or whatever. But it really like I said, the TBM transition, one, I was a much newer pilot. So by the time I went to the M two, I'd been all over the country, I'd been into all these airports.
So it was and and literally a 100% of my hours were behind Garmin glass. Yeah. I'm not doing the steam gauge thing. Just think it's such a great platform. So the avionics thing wasn't a big transition, the actual flying thing wasn't a bit now it's just a more capable airplane.
A lot of ways, it's easier to fly. Sure, it's a lot easier to land. My worst landing in a jet is better than my best landing in the the TBM. You know, they don't have the trigger in the gear. I mean, it's fine.
Justin: No, it's not
Jason: bad, but it's really You just plan it and walk away. So yeah. No. I didn't feel left on my own at all, but I also didn't feel like it was merely the step step function in learning and, you know, whatever. I there's just a lot of things that were already kinda gone by the wayside by the time I stepped up to the the jets.
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Download your personal copy of the final approach retirement guide at allworthairline.com/justin. Now, I think it's really interesting is you take these to some airports that a lot of people wanna take planes to that don't feel comfortable. Right? Like Telluride is known to be somewhat of a more difficult airport. I used to fly for NetJets.
I flew this the the Latitude a lot. We would go to Telluride all the time. None of that. Great place. Right?
But we only went one way in, one way out. Some people can do fly the other way going, I don't remember the runway at the top of my head, but some people come in the other way too. So to me, that's like, woah, woah, But if you're used to it
Jason: Yeah. You you train you train for it.
Justin: Yeah. Exactly.
Jason: It's yeah. Funny story about that. Funny you mentioned that jet. But they yeah. You're right.
They won't land two seven. So it's if you don't know the airport, it's a box canyon heading east. Pretty much you wanna land on Runway 9. Problem is in the afternoon, the winds always coming from the wrong direction. And so the wind is always coming from the west in the afternoon.
Justin: Every single time.
Jason: So now but yeah, that's that's one of the first things I did with the TBM with a proper instructor and then also with the m two and then again in the three plus. You know, let's go land 27. The safety thing, I my opinion on that in that airport is if you're not comfortable landing 27, you have no business going to Telluride because okay, it's a tight box canyon, it's a bunch of things. Definitely do if you're gonna do that, you should go in there with a mentor or it's really well modeled in the sim at flight safety now. It didn't used to be, but it's I mean, I can see little landmarks that I use on the ground in the sim that I use in real life.
Like there's the barn that I, you know, start my base leg. But the the thing I don't understand it, like so if you are circling to land two seven and you're not lined up, you're too high, you know, you've overshot a little bit, just go around. There's nothing to hit. Once you're facing west, there's nothing. It's a non event.
Justin: It's an easier go around, right?
Jason: Fly out the canyon and reconfigure and figure it out. If you're on Runway 9 and some yahoo, which happens, we don't have a tower. I mean, the most dangerous thing in that canyon is pilots. But if you're on 9 and somebody does something weird or a deer runs out on the runway and you've got to go around on 9, that's an event. You're gonna remember that one.
You know, it's not like land on 27. So I'm don't know, I'm biased because I've been in there in and out of there hundreds of times now.
Justin: Yeah.
Jason: But I I I don't know. I just I think people don't think that. I think it shows that a lot of times people don't think about it the way we were taught in school, which is assume every landing is a bulk landing, right? You're not on the ground until you're on the ground and in the hangar. And so if you're comfortable going into nine, and I know the fractionals, just their SOPs don't allow it, so it's nothing to do with what the Pilots Not wanna
Justin: even a chance.
Jason: Yeah. So anyway, it's interesting. But yeah, that's a great luxury again for why I'd rather be flying myself than, you know, sign up with one of the fractionals and have them tote me around.
Justin: Yeah. I mean, that's the beauty of being able to buy your own plane, fly your own plane. That's why people do it. In fact, when I was flying at the fractional, I was told that the biggest competition to them is actually buying your own jet. Right?
They don't consider necessarily flex jet or other other operators is people that buy their own plane just like you. And you get to go fly, do what you wanna do, do it safely, like you're talking about. But I think it's awesome. And I think it's awesome that not you're not just like flying to these airports and like you mentioned the first time you tell your idea, had a mentor. You had someone that is familiar with it.
You're not just going there in your plane be like, alright, oh, cool. Two seven, let's do it. Let's go, you know. It's, it's very much of, alright, is it safe to do it? Yes.
Do I need to get someone to help me do it? Yes. Then let's let's make it work.
Jason: Yeah. Let's do that a bunch of times until you're comfortable, and then let's go somewhere else and do it again.
Justin: Yeah. Where would you say, you know, if someone that goes on to tell you another time, which some people think is the most challenging, I'm sure you would have asked me a couple times as well, What would you say is one of the more difficult airports that you go into now? Is it just something that is unfamiliar to you? Or is it those Aspens? Is it those Tellurides with the the other factors like winds and turbulence and wind shear, and weather that comes into play?
Jason: Yeah. Those are all things. I mean, I I have the luxury. I'm flying my wife and I around for fun. So if it's really bad weather in the mountains, we're just not going.
Justin: Yeah.
Jason: I I mean, it's it's always some weather and it's always windy. But I try very hard to pay attention to that, you know, in modern training, the hazardous attitude stuff which is really where you really get into trouble. The airplane can do anything. You just don't put it in a stupid position. Yeah, no, there's lots of things that are challenging for different reasons.
I mean, Aspen, I landed three three in Aspen last summer, that was cool. That was kind of a non event after landing so many times in Telluride.
Justin: Yeah.
Jason: For me, probably the more intimidating thing is, you know, just really random flying in the Northeast. You know, it's so busy, air traffic control is slightly less patient and kind than what we get out in the West, a little less rolling with the punches up there. But it's super busy and if you get boxed in at Morristown with bad weather and all of that stuff, that's going to be exciting. And they're always trying to push you down and they're always like, Okay, maximum speed. You're like, Dude, I'm under your bravo.
I've got my maximum speed now. It's interesting. But yeah, so I just brief those real hard and I, you know, make sure you're not landing at your normal minimum fuel like you would do elsewhere. You bring in a lot of extra fuel because they're always pushing you down way too early. But I I find that more intimidating than mountain flying just because I've done so much of it.
Justin: Yeah. Exactly. Someone like me that has thousands of hours, some of the most stressful times for me is on the ground at Chicago O'Hare trying to taxi to my gate or taxi to the FBO. It's like, I mean, when I was flying Fractional at one point, it was, I think we had an hour and five minute taxi. We landed all the way to South, we had to go all the way to Signature and they took us to the left, to the right, up and down.
I was like, I can't read back this many frequency or this many instructions. What is going on?
Jason: Well, can you yeah. I don't know what, avionics you have, imagine in the days before, I I can't even imagine the the days before the, you know, you had it on four flight, you'd sit there with a taxi diagram that shows exactly where you are right. Yeah. That's on
Justin: a paper chart, there's no chance.
Jason: Right. Yeah.
Justin: Yeah. We had the this is in the Latitude, then we had the g 5,000. So I was like, alright, turn here, here, here, burp. Got it. Done.
Yeah. I can see it, I can do it. Yeah. Felt very comfortable doing that. In all these experiences that you've had, you know, business aviation is such a tool, not only personally, but also for your business.
Would you say you as a business owner, would your business be in the same position it is in today without having the access to these planes, without having the access to your plane?
Jason: Well, so so I'm I'm retired. I don't own anything. Yeah. I don't own a business, I don't run a business.
Justin: Right.
Jason: So when I was a CEO, I was the CEO of a public company. It's called Cirrus Logic. It's been around for a long time. And for me, when we started chartering and then also ultimately started chartering my own plane, it really was it was a game changer in a way that most people don't think about. So I had already been doing the job for ten years and when they when I got the CEO job, the guy that was our chairman, he told me, he's like, I've never seen anybody do it well for more than ten.
I've seen a lot of people do it for longer than ten but not well. He says, it just takes a ton of energy. And so I got to 10 and I didn't really have the right guy to take over for me yet. And one of the things that was the most frustrating about the business was just so much travel and as I mentioned, airlines being what they are. So having transitioned to private aviation, it extended my longevity as a CEO by four or five years.
I literally would have just guys, I can't do this anymore because it was so frustrating. And then on top of that, you talk about the efficiency of, know, gee, what time does the air carrier's flight go to San Francisco? Don't care. Gonna go right when we need to go. When the meeting's over, we're gonna go straight to the FBO and fly home.
So it's, you know, one less night away from home, which is huge when you travel as much as as I used to have to. Yeah. It's Yeah.
Justin: The meeting goes late, who cares, right?
Jason: Yeah. It's a complete game changer. And I think Yeah. Certainly the stories of many of the folks I know on CJP that do own their own business and fly themselves around for that. I mean, just the ultimate game changer.
I mean, it's just incredible.
Justin: What would you say is your favorite airplane you've ever owned?
Jason: I mean, the the one I have now. So the M two was amazing. And it worked for Telluride because mostly it's my wife and I and sometimes the dog. But for Hot and High, you're paying attention. You're doing a lot of fuel, like okay, you're probably not gonna go full fuel a lot.
So it's not a CJ three plus, that is the answer. But some gentleman that owned this thing had two pilots, was flying back to New Jersey on Easter, so you can imagine, you know, and I think all three of these guys are from New Jersey, so you can kind of imagine the external pressures going on. And he's trying to get back and there's 30 knots of gusty crust wind in this, I think 5,000 foot runway and multiple planes before these guys had had gone missed and gone elsewhere And they cleverly decided to try to land with wind shear in the area and 30 knot crosswinds and ended up in a ditch. Touchdown about halfway down the runway and ended up in a ditch. And so it's a pretty dramatic picture.
I saw this picture, was like, but I really want a three plus. So I call the guy well, I call the guy's broker, that's another thing. But I call the guy's broker and I'm like, oh, and he's pitching me on it. I'm like, well, so how many hours does it have after the repairs? He said zero.
I'm like, that's the wrong answer, man. I was hoping for like a 100. But I was in Austin and there's a company, it's up in Uvalde and that's what they do. It's actually the company that took some of the early CJs and turned them into they put different engines and turned them into what's called a and a lot of that stuff. And so one of the other things they do is they go buy scratch and dent planes and fix them up and sell them, which is what they did with this one.
They went and bought it. This was definitely on the higher end of things they normally do. Their hangar is amazing. Land of the Broken twice, it's incredible. All sorts of planes and rivets sticking out of them and it's interesting.
But I go out there and it's also beige. Wish I'd
Justin: The second time you said something
Jason: rotten It was so pretty. Yeah. This one's fine. I don't really care that much what my airplane looks like. It's a tool to do a job.
The three plus for coming out of Telluride, it might be the perfect plane. Because you can go well, I don't I don't ever go full fuel out of Telluride, you can get a long ways away. And, you know, the performance hot and high is just incredible. So I mean, really wanted this plane. And so we'd take it up and fly around go up to 45,000 feet.
I'm I'm on the left seat. This guy that that does this, this guy's company, I mean he's a proper test pilot. So I'm pretty comfortable. But still we get up to 45,000 feet, fly around a little bit, and go back, land in Uvalde. He's like, congratulations, you're a test pilot.
And I'm like, what? He's like, Yeah, I've never had it over 18,000 feet before. I'm like, You might have told me that buddy, because my wife's in the back. Like I didn't know that part.
Justin: Yeah, that's bad. That's not good.
Jason: But I mean, just again, given my bias that this is for utility, this is for solving a problem, getting to where we're trying to go. I mean, a three plus is just a dream. An amazing airplane. Mean, I get the airplane ADD like everybody else. But every time I look at it, there's just there's no for me, there's just not really anywhere to go from there that makes any sense.
Justin: Yeah.
Jason: Know, I we ours was in for maintenance past couple weeks and we had a wedding to go to, so we ended up chartering. We chartered a Citation 10, which if you've ever ridden a while I mean, I'm sure anyway, if you've ever ridden in one of those, that will make you look uncontrollably. Cause that is
Justin: You're like, how fast are we going
Jason: right now?
Justin: Does that say nine?
Jason: Like insanely fast. We went coast to coast in both directions without stopping. It was amazing.
Justin: Yep.
Jason: But then you said, okay, it's two Pilot's and it's this and it's that. Fuel burn and do I really need to go faster? Because I mean, know, hundred hours of me flying is actually a fair amount of flying in a year. I'd be hard pressed to keep insurance happy if I flew anything much faster. So yeah, no, I mean, I've loved other than that DA62, I think I've loved everything I've owned and flown.
The Kodiak was just That a was amazing. Landed on dirt strips and whatnot. But, no, this this is anyway, it's it's the right plane for me.
Justin: So when you found this plane, did you call him up? Would you call Textron up? You're like, hey, I got bad news and good news. Bad news is I need you to help me sell my m two. Good news is I'm still staying in the family.
I'm just I'm just moving up.
Jason: Well, did my one of my first calls was to Caleb going, dude, tell me I'm nuts or tell me I'm not nuts. Like what he's like, well, okay. That is actually a really reputable outfit. And I I kind of approached it like, okay, I'm gonna just treat it like a brand new airplane. The first year, you're gonna have a few things, you know, the first hundred hours, you're probably gonna have a few things.
I had more than a few things in that period. But they're sorted out. Textron's been great. My second call, so the M2 was part of Textron's pro ownership group.
Justin: Okay.
Jason: Which varies. There's a I guess there's a number of ways that model works. Some of them are just fully managed planes, like you buy the plane and Textron just does everything else. They get you contract pilots when you need one, deal with the service, they hang out, they do all the stuff. I don't use it for that.
But when I got the M2, what Caleb put me on to was this aspect of pro ownership where the only real cost to it is you have to commit to using Textron Service Center. But in exchange for that, you get a guy in the pro ownership group who knows everything about these planes and knows all the service center, he knows all the people, he knows really everything and all the the complicated stuff about when, what maintenance is gonna be due and how do you keep track of that. I'm sure I could figure that out, right? There's Sierra tracks or Sescom, whatever. There's tools for that, but that's not why I'm flying.
I don't wanna mess with that. I wanna show up, put gas in it and go. And so my second call, I think, was probably to my guy in the pro ownership group going, okay, I don't know how this works. If I buy a used airplane, can you still be my guy? Because I'm not otherwise, I'm not doing this.
Because I'm pretty sure I'm gonna need some help. Yeah. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna need some help. And he he was great. He was, yeah, of course, we'll do that.
So yeah, there was there was some of that.
Justin: But Where's the oh, keep going.
Jason: I'm outside. Sorry. I I got distracted out the window.
Justin: Oh, no. You're good. So you we mentioned Telluride. We've mentioned kind of going out to the Northeast. Where else do you frequent your plane?
Where else do you I guess, take it for fun or take it for vacation or take it the places you really wanna go.
Jason: So I mean, other than where we live, so California, we go to Austin still, we go to Telluride all the time. We chase concerts. We're both retired, so we kinda chase concerts.
Justin: Oh, cool.
Jason: So what's playing at Red Rocks? What's playing at Hollywood Bowl? What's playing wherever? We've kind of a list of shows we wanna see and just kind of try to plan around that. It's not necessarily the only thing we're gonna do, but we'll try to plan around, you know, here, we wanna go see the Foo Fighters at the end of September in Las Vegas.
You know, let's plan a trip around that, spend an extra couple of days or whatnot. Yeah. So that's big element of it. Skiing, we mostly stay where we are in Telluride, that's not so much. But it's really it's about moving around with the various places that we live.
And again, that would just be really obnoxious without it.
Justin: Yeah. Absolutely. Do you have a dream airport at all? Is there like, you know, a dream concert, you wanna see at a dream place and you wanna be able to fly yourself there? Or do you think you've flown to most of kind of like your dream airports?
Jason: I've probably done most of those. Yeah. I mean, the the ones that to me are interesting are the ones that would be hard to deal with without, you know, Telluride, Aspen, etcetera. It's the concert ones are usually kind of boring. You're going to I mean, it's not boring, but you're going to Hawthorne in LA or you're going to Centennial or Broomfield in Denver, you know, wherever it happens to be.
Those airports are, you know, I mean, it's still things to study and look at and whatnot, but they're not like, oh gee, how am I gonna get to Hawthorne? So that's but yeah, I always like going somewhere new. I've done I haven't done it so much in the Citation, but I did it a lot in the TBM where I do these Pilot and Paws trips.
Justin: Oh, cool. So That's
Jason: it's such a neat idea. Like somebody realized and mostly, like you show up in a jet to a Pilot and Pause mission and people are like, what? Because mostly it's it's it's pop ups and a lot of times it'll be, you know, four or five flights in a row to cause this this dog to get, you know, multiple states away where there's somebody to adopt it. Because a lot of the big shelters and and certain parts of the country have done a great job of getting a no kill status, whereas little town shelters along the border in Texas, they're horrible. So there's a lot of euthanasia.
And so people realize, well, we've a shortage of dogs in the Northeast. You know, they can find a little shelter in Texas that calls them when something adoptable shows up. And the string of people that would have otherwise been flying around in circles to do $100 hamburgers goes and picks up a dog. And it's something you know, it's so much more fun to have a mission than it is to just go up because you haven't gone up for a while. It's just really a lot cooler.
And so what's better than going to pick up some cute puppy and take it to its forever home? That's fun. And so I've only done a few of those in the Citation. We did a long one with one of the Mentor Pilots, right, when I got the three plus
Justin: from Texas
Jason: to Boise, Idaho. Those are because they take you to some random I mean, that was cool for me because it's like that's using the range of the plane and speed of the plane and Yeah. You've got a mission and it takes I mean, I bet your thing with net jets was kinda like that too because you probably woke up most days and didn't even know where you're going yet. And so then you gotta study it and think about it.
Justin: Halfway through the day, didn't know where you're going. Yeah. They'd be like, hey, you're going here. Alright. Cool.
You look over everything. Alright. Hey, actually you're gonna go here. Alright. Cool.
Let me look over there. Hey, wait. We're going over here. It's like, alright.
Jason: I mean, I I like I don't I probably wouldn't enjoy that it to that level, but I do like that aspect of doing the pilots and pause things because it causes you to step out and try different things. I have no reason to go to Hobbs, New Mexico, but I took a pit mix in there once.
Justin: Yeah. I was flying, I did aerial survey. I was flying a, a three ten all over kind of the country, you know. Flying and and serving whether it's oil fields or whether it's pipelines, government contracts, whatever it is. But we needed fuel, looked down, it's like, hey, there's Carlsbad, New Mexico.
Never been there before. I was like, alright, cool. What city do in Carlsbad, New Mexico? Oh, let's go to the caverns. It's one of the biggest caverns in the entire world and we got to go hike underneath it and that was one of the coolest things I ever did.
So it's like you said, you never know what you're gonna see when you go somewhere. It could be some random place like Carlsbad, New Mexico or it could be, you know, a place you find the best food you've ever had. It's really really cool that get to do that.
Jason: Yeah. Yeah. It is a neat thing. That used to be Yeah. When we were chartering for when I was still working, my investor relations gal and I, especially once it was my airplane and and the pilots that worked for me, they they would know and text me the day we're leaving like, what do you guys want on the plane for dinner?
It's like,
Justin: well Yeah.
Jason: We're in Maine. How about lobster? How about lobster and champagne? We'll sit in the back and take care of that.
Justin: Sounds like a dream flight, man. Lobster champagne, sign me up, right?
Jason: It's not bad. Yeah. It's not a bad way
Justin: to go. Yeah. My last question for you. I know the answer to there's two part question, but I know the answer to the first part. I was gonna ask what's your favorite airport to land at?
I'm guessing it's probably Telluride because that's where home was for a while. It could be if it's different, you can correct me. What's your favorite airport you land at or have landed at in your least favorite airport?
Jason: I mean, Telluride is really neat. Aspen is really neat. This is something very satisfying. Yeah. I'm sure you've been into Aspen a 100 times.
It's very easy to get behind the airplane on that approach, especially I don't understand why anybody flies the localizer now they got the RNAV because it's so much easier. Yeah. But still It's so cool when you get it just right and you're all configured just right, you don't get behind the airplane and it's just kinda cause everybody knows, your passengers for sure know that like, people are scared of that and it's when you just make it look like it was piece of cake, that that was really cool. Landing 33 last summer was really neat because the wind had kicked up and all of a sudden all the charter guys are diverting because they can't go into 33 and it's like, I guess we can. So that was really neat.
I would say what's the one in Arizona that's on top of the cliff? Sedona?
Justin: Oh, Sedona.
Jason: Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. And the little runway or the little cafe right on the airport.
Justin: It's such good food.
Jason: Fantastic. Yeah. So that's satisfying. Least favorite. Bravos are kind of a mixed bag.
I really don't like going into satellite airports that are under a Bravo. Okay. I'd rather like if I'm going to Dallas, I'd rather go to Love Field than, you know, Addison or or whatever where you're kinda out under the Bravo and waiting for your clearance and doing all that. I'd rather go into Love. Yeah.
But that's not true of all the I mean, I'm not going into LAX, right?
Justin: Yeah.
Jason: I'm just like lighting piles of cash on fire. And Hawthorne is right there and it's a really reasonable report for a three plus. Yeah. I don't I don't I I'm intimidated. I I hate to say it, but I am I have not yet.
I've always worked my around my way around having to go into Teterboro. I should bite the bullet one of these times, but so far I've But always engineered around
Justin: I'm a big Teterboro fan. I am a Teterboro truther. Intimidating because of like everything's just like boom boom boom boom boom and they sound so strict and everybody just let them do what they need to do. Just listen to what they say and it's it's great. It's easy.
You have like seven FBOs you can choose from. So if you don't like one, go to the other one. Right. But I love Tutor Bro. Was always fun.
Jason: Nice. Yeah. I'll Except
Justin: for the circle. I don't like the circle there. Yeah. I do
Jason: not like The circle, but that's yeah, you're gonna get that a lot. Yeah. And yeah, the fees are the fees are pretty special also. Yeah. Versus going into Morristown or or what's the one out on Long Island?
Those are both great. And Yeah. It's a good I don't I I think helicopters are kind of witchcraft and I I'm not sure about that. Can't agree But with the only time I will make an exception to that is if you're going into New York. There's something pretty awesome about landing your plane at Morristown and and there's blades got a helicopter waiting for you and they take you land That's right in about the coolest thing that you could do with with flying.
That's amazing. And I just think you probably saw it as well. There's all sorts of press the last day or so about now Joby, this vertical takeoff and landing, saying they just flew their first flight from Midtown out to JFK, I think. Yeah. So that's coming.
And so as an and that's gonna drive the price down a lot. So as a kind of the last mile combination with GA flying, I think that's gonna be really cool.
Justin: Yeah. I mean, just new technology is awesome. It's gonna be really exciting to see where things go, what airplane manufacturers do, and, yeah. It's gonna kind of the next I wanna say next frontier. It sounds cheesy, but I mean, kinda like you said, like that last mile of I mean, we've seen it.
Right? You land in Teterboro, you land in Midway, it takes you an hour to get downtown. It's like, alright, how do we speed that up? Alright. Well, we got Blade, but alright, well, this still takes a little bit of time.
That's still doesn't happen as often as we might want it to happen, but yeah, it'll be it'll be interesting to see what happens.
Jason: Yeah. I don't I don't wanna own anything where there was a ton of recent innovation, like I said about the TNA. And that's one of the things I love about the M two and the three plus as well. Yeah. You sit down in that plane and it's like this is this has evolved over many, many, many years of improve this, improve that, improve the other thing.
It really shows. It's very confidence building. But yeah, so once in a while, okay, then fly in the helicopter.
Justin: Yeah. I totally agree. I mean, I went from started my training in I did one flight in January, and I made it all the way up to the Latitude, and probably, like, 10 other Textron Aviation planes in between, and I felt comfortable in each one. You know, you could tell that those things were built off each platform and just continued to go. So it was really cool to do.
Yeah.
Jason: Very cool.
Justin: Well, Jason, I really appreciate your time. It's been a lot of fun. Like I said, most of the people I talked to are kinda like, you know, I wanna be an airline pilot. I wanna fly four net jets. It's really fun to talk about someone that has done some cool stuff in their life.
It's like, hey, you know, aviation can save me time. It can be fun and I can I can do this business aviation thing and then fly for fun on my own? So I really appreciate you coming on. I think was really cool to talk about and I wish you the best of luck in everything you do and hope you get to see every concert that you wanna see because you deserve it.
Jason: I appreciate it. If if this has allowed me to convince one person out there that CEOs don't eat babies babies for breakfast, then then my mission here is
Justin: I don't know, man. I'm a little skeptical still. Alright? I'm a little skeptical still now. But I appreciate your time and as I said earlier, you know, I'll send you a magazine or two.
So let me know your address and I'll send those out to you as soon as, you send that out.
Jason: Alright. I appreciate it, Justin. Nice to meet you.
Justin: Alright. Jason, thanks so much. I appreciate your time. Have a good one. Sure.
See you. Aviation, that's a wrap on today's episode. Thank you so much again to Textron Aviation for sponsoring the Pilot to Pilot podcast, and I look forward to seeing what we can do together in the future. It's gonna be a lot of fun and maybe hopefully fly some airplanes. That'd be really cool and that's the goal.
Get pilot the pilot in a plane. Aviation, I hope you're having a great day. And as always, happy flying. The pilot to pilot podcast is brought to you by ground school from the finer points, the indispensable training app for new and experienced pilots. Visit learnthefinerpoints.com backslash Justin to save 10% off your first year.