Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello.
Welcome, Amanda.
I'm super excited to have you here.
Yes.
Glad
Amanda: to be here.
Anke: And I, you know, I just love it.
Like, you just kind of look as if you've just come in from the
outside, which I know you're not.
So
Amanda: Uh, yep.
I very much did.
Anke: Let people know where outside is for you, like, where you're based, it.
And, um, you know, what's your business with dogs?
Yeah.
Amanda: Well, you wouldn't know based off what I'm wearing, but I'm actually based
out of, um, Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.
However, it is, um, February, so we are getting a little chilly.
Um, it got down to the thirties last night, but we I guess I'm
acclimated now, so 40 degree weather is is enough for a winter hat.
Um, But, yes, I moved down, um, from Upstate New York, uh, to start a dog
business, a dog training business.
I had spent a lot of time trying to figure out what I wanted
that business to look like.
Um, and so I had decided that I wanted to do something where that I got owners
and dogs working together and having fun while also experiencing Better behavior.
So, um, less about focusing on training like work and more
focusing on training like fun.
Having fun with your dog and, yeah, enjoying your time together
while also getting the benefits of good behavior back home.
I love that.
I
Anke: I love it.
So you get to hang out with people's dogs all day.
I think that's just
Amanda: Yes.
Yep.
That's that's a lot of the job.
It's great.
Anke: I love it.
I love it.
So you get to go you go walk you walk people's dogs, and then if they go like,
what on earth have you done to these dogs?
They're all of a sudden much better behave, then you know, that's how you get
Amanda: your training clients.
Right?
Exactly.
Yep.
I get to hang out with the dog, spend time.
I almost made, um, T shirts that said I'm your dog's other best friend.
Um, but, yeah, it's it's been a lot of fun both connecting with the dogs and then,
um, Having that connection lead to getting the dogs and the owners more connected.
Anke: I love it.
Love it.
So now when it comes to dog training, you have an approach
that, you know, is probably, un unfortunately, not that commonly known.
Tell us a little bit about it.
What what is it and, you know, how is it different from what people might be
Amanda: familiar with?
Yeah.
So I studied under and learned from Kevin Bien who, uh, Uh, develop the dog model or
the training model, natural dog training.
Um, and his approach to how he developed it and also the training model
itself is very different from other training models that are out there.
Um, I did have the benefit of not Being extremely well versed in other
training models, because I didn't come to him as a trainer originally.
I came to him as an owner with a human and Dog aggressive dog or dog reactive dog.
And, um, the thing that really connected me to his work was
because it was different.
I would read about, um, different training models, um, like the the
dominance training or force training, um, e collar training, The the clicker or,
um, all positive reinforcement training.
And A lot of it, to me, spoke to the idea of being in control of your dog.
And for me, I had grown up, um, Um, you know, carrying around a veterinary
textbook before I could read.
I wanted to save dogs.
I wanted to help dogs.
For me, it was much more about having a connection and a
real relationship with my dog.
Um, so that want, that desire had led me to trainers who
who utilize methods like that.
Um, and, eventually, we Found Kevin, and he taught us, um, you know,
the real, um, the real nuts and bolts of how to to really get that
that we were seeking with our dogs.
So I think, um, the biggest difference would be that natural dog training is
about forming a relationship, a mutually beneficial relationship where both
parties are getting what they want.
Not only are you getting the behavior that you're looking brought out
of your dog, but the dog is also getting everything that they want
out of the relationship with you.
So it's, um, very fulfilling.
Anke: Yeah.
I mean, I must say to, like, for for transparency, for clarity, uh, I
stumbled across natural dog training.
And, uh, when I was like you know, when I had my little layout
and I was like, I don't know.
None of this stuff.
I'm finding out made sense.
And it was literally this moment where I was like, oh, for the first time,
something actually makes sense here.
You know?
And, um, and the the sort of the things you do as the person in this in this
relationship, uh, are quite call them let's call them counterintuitive if we
call intuitive what we're kind of used to.
Right?
So not counterintuitive if you know what's behind it.
But if you read some other stuff, you know, and you kind of like, people told
you you've gotta do this and you've gotta do that, and all of a sudden
this comes along and goes, oh, no.
You actually do the opposite.
Like, tell us a little bit about, like, you know, what the what you
were sharing before about, you know, getting the dogs to come back.
So instead of chasing off them and yelling after them.
Like, you run the other way.
Amanda: Right.
Right?
So Well, and it's funny it's funny that you say counterintuitive because
if we really got down to it, These behaviors and what natural dog training
the exercises are different things.
They're actually all based off intuition and And into the
that's why I put it in the wall.
Think we're right.
I think we're so far Yeah.
Separated from from the nature within ourselves that that's why
it's become counterintuitive.
Yes.
Um, so what Kevin learned it through watching and observing the dogs, and
that's how and then, again, used his intuition to infer what was going
on and then eventually, Um, then went the more scientific approach of
of experimenting and saying, okay.
If I do this, then the dog does this and this.
So, um, 1 of the the the main components for me, um, and, again,
I learned this Through a friend's daughter who ended up, um, or at
least I learned what to label it.
Through a friend's daughter, She actually struggled with with drug addiction,
and she went to a drug rehab program.
And they had this exercise, um, that they I believe they called
it intention without reservation.
Um, and so the the, Um, the people in the rehab were learning to almost
develop their own sense of willpower or or reestablish their own willpower.
And it it's very as she was explaining it, it it really resonated with me for exactly
what we're doing with the dogs, um, Um, when it comes to natural dog training.
So when you're giving your dog a command or trying to get your dog
to elicit a certain behavior, Um, the most important thing is not
what you're saying or even what your body language is necessarily doing.
Um, the most important thing is your emotional state inside and how you are
feeling and what you are thinking about when you are Speaking that command.
Um, so going back to the dogs running away, so most people in that situation,
Their dog has either gotten off the leash or they're they're they're off
leash, and the dog is now running towards something that they don't
want them to be running towards.
Um, Um, you know, put yourself in that moment.
How are you feeling?
Um, if you're feeling afraid and you're feeling scared and you're
thinking in your head, oh my god.
Don't go that way.
Don't Don't run that way.
Oh my gosh.
They're not they're running away.
They're running away.
Um, even as you're calling out to them, you know, hey.
Come back.
Come back, Fido.
If you're feeling and thinking those things, the dog is picking up on that.
The dog is not the dog doesn't know English.
The dog doesn't speak our language.
The dog doesn't have, Um, you know, the same language capabilities
that we do and the same prefrontal cortex to to process the information
that you are shouting at it.
However, it does have the, um, inner workings to process emotionally
what you're thinking and feeling.
And so when when you're calling out to them but you're afraid that
they're not gonna come back, what they're hearing from you is run away.
If you're sitting there thinking, oh my god.
They're running away.
Running away.
All they're feeling is I'm running away.
If you're afraid of something, then that fear is reinforced in them.
I I need to run away.
There's something to be afraid of.
So they have no understanding that, oh, they just want me to come back.
They're afraid because there's cars, you know, up ahead or because they're afraid
they're gonna lose me in the woods or They they don't understand any of that.
They just understand that you are now afraid and that they're getting
a feeling of you, of insecurity, that you're not gonna be able to To to
catch them, um, and it just becomes this self self fulfilling cycle.
The dog's running away, and then most of the time, you know,
again, instinct is to chase it.
Um, and then you get into the prey predator dynamic, which
is If I'm you know, who's the prey and who's the predator?
If you're chasing your dog, you are establishing in that moment that your
dog is the prey and you are the predator.
Well, what's the prey's job?
It's not to turn around and come to the predator.
That would be horrible.
The the prey's job is to run away and get and stay away and and evade.
Um, so simply by understanding, you know, the intention without
reservation, which once you understand the prey predator dynamic And you
are confident in what you're doing, which again so prey predator.
If you want the dog to chase you, then you have to take on the role of prey.
So you have to embody a prey energy.
Um, so, again, uh, as I was explaining to you with the the other 2 dogs, I'm
gonna make my my voice very high pitched.
Bye bye.
And I'm going to like, I'm saying bye bye not because they understand what bye
bye means, but I wanna get in my body and my Intention of I'm about to leave you.
I'm about to run away.
Bye bye.
Um, so the bye bye is for me.
However, the high pitched voice, The sound mimicking a prey animal,
um, and then I turn and I run away.
I run.
So now now the dog is in this, oh my gosh.
They're running away.
I gotta go get them.
And that's exactly what I'm feeling and thinking is I'm I they're gonna get me.
This dog is gonna get me.
I gotta go run.
I gotta go hide.
And so My intention now becomes exactly what I need it to be for them to come
to me as opposed to running away.
So intention without reservation is is a A very important, um, tool, and
it's very important to understand how that works with the dog if you want
to establish a true rapport Where your dog is actually listening to you.
It's a game changer.
Always listening.
Yes.
But
Anke: that is a game changer.
Right?
I mean, I I I kinda do it with, like, my massive puppy.
You know?
I have a puppy.
Like, she's a horse.
Like, she's 18 months old.
Is this it?
Small.
Right?
But but it's like when she's goofing how you know, I kind of do that just
for, you know, just for the fun of it.
So often when she's running around her, and I just kind of, like, I
crouch down, open my arms, kinda round myself, like and I don't say anything.
Like, invariably, she'll stop what she's doing and she'll come in towards me.
That You know?
Because, like, I'm, like, little, and I'm, like, kind of welcoming,
like, arms open and just, like, bouncing out, and she will I'll pray.
Time.
You know?
And it I like I literally have experienced that.
I can a hundred percent confirm that that is how it works.
You know, even though it's kind of like the opposite of what we're being
told, you know, with that, like, you've got, you know, you've gotta be and
I think that sort of sense of, like, you have to tell the dog and you have
to tell them off and you have to, you know, I think that's the opposite.
Like, that is so predator
Amanda: like Well, again, put put yourself in the dog's shoes.
So imagine you know nothing about English.
You don't Speak their language.
And you're so say you're in a foreign country and you come up to somebody
and something scares you or you see something attractive further out and
you start to move Towards that, and then all of a sudden, the person behind
you is yelling at you and chasing you.
What are you gonna feel?
What are you gonna think in that moment?
Are you gonna run towards them?
I mean, unless you have, like, a background in Krav Maga, judo, whatever,
like and you you're gonna go fight them.
Um, no.
You're gonna run away.
You're gonna keep going.
Like, why would I turn around and run towards that?
Why would I direct my energy towards something that is acting in that way.
It just makes no again, when it comes down to it, that
actually makes no logical sense.
When you like, we would think the logical Cool thing to do
is to, yeah, you know, no.
Don't go that way.
Come back here.
It's it makes no sense even if you do really put it into a human.
Even in a human perspective, that doesn't make any sense.
Um, but it always comes back to that that insecure need for control.
Um, but it's like, What works better?
Um, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar.
I'm I'm gonna get the dog to come to me and do what I want If it
feels good for the dog to do so.
If it doesn't feel good for the dog to do what I want, which is essentially
what we're using the treats for, oh, it feels good to do that Trick
because I get a treat at the end.
Not because I enjoy doing the trick.
I just want the treat.
And natural dog training takes that a step further and says, okay.
Well, We can make the dog feel good without the food.
We can give it a fulfilling feeling of moving well with us,
of nurturing those those hunt instincts, that prey predator dynamic.
So a dog feels good when it's chased and caught a prey animal.
That's what it's been doing its whole life up until we put it in a little sweater
and gave it food in a bowl and said, okay.
You're retired.
You don't have to hunt anymore.
Well, guess what?
They still have the hunting instincts.
They still have the entire evolutionary drive to hunt, and Natural dog training
gives them an answer to that problem.
It takes that into account instead of just, here, do this, and I'll
I'll bribe you with food, or Here, do this, and you won't get in trouble,
which neither of those things are very motivating in the end.
Yeah.
Anke: Actually, the the there's a question that pops up.
Like, because especially with intention without reservation, and I've experienced
like, I've totally experienced that sense.
Like, yeah, you can't you cannot fool your dog.
Right?
So you can you can kind of, you know, pretend to be, you know,
all all confident and whatever.
And, I mean, I had it, like, when especially my first dog
when he got he got bitten.
Right?
So and then, uh, on on the back of that, you know, obviously, I was
totally surprised in that moment.
So I definitely looking back, I'm like, oh god.
He probably thought more useless.
You know?
He would have thought, like you know, I was like, oh, boy.
Did I have to like, I would have you know, if if he had rational
thoughts like that, he definitely would have lost trust in me that day.
He was like, oh, I can't rely on that 1.
Right?
So because I was just, like, so surprised and so, like, you know?
I mean, I did I did pull him out, so it wasn't that I kinda just left him there
as I did pull him out of the situation.
But but, yeah, I was certainly not grounded and calm in the situation.
And so, basically, on the back of that, he was then very wary of of
other male dogs in confined spaces.
Right?
So now knowing that we won't have space and he's gonna just throw himself at
whoever comes at him, you know, like dogs, never people but other dogs.
You know?
I was then the 1 like, I'd be scanning the horizon, you know,
kind of trying to you know?
And I'm thinking
Amanda: You you joined into the hunt.
Now now he knows what the hunt is.
I know.
And so now you're both out there looking for a
win.
Anke: I'm like, see, now that's where my question comes in.
Right?
So because now I'm scared of another incident like that because
but on the back of the experience.
Right?
So now he probably has the same thing going on, you know, and on and he will
notice that I'm, like, tense even though I'm consciously and I probably put all my
effort in not showing it and not being it.
And still, I'm looking whether I can see another dog coming somewhere.
Right?
Well, and and How do you break through that cycle?
Because if I don't get through that cycle, he will always read that.
Like, he will always perceive that from me and which will make a part of
Amanda: whatever you're feeling.
Anke: How do I fix my end of this.
Amanda: So so, again, intention without reservation.
So going in right now, your intention or the way you described your intention in
your intention in those moments is, again, you're you're joining in on the hunt.
You're you're gatewaying and magnetizing The oncoming male dog.
With you're scanning for it.
You're looking for it.
And if you find 1, your whole body is gonna be like, oh my god.
Oh my god.
There's a dog.
What we do.
What we gotta do, and he's just all he's picking up on is mom's afraid.
I feel the fear.
She's look oh, it's all centered at this 1 dog.
I gotta go get him.
I gotta go.
That's that's where all my energy needs to go.
That's how you know, this this is this is what's going on.
That's that's the communication that's going on in that moment.
So if you wanna change the communication, you have to change your intention.
So first thing you gotta do is get yourself in a place where you're Confident
that if you encounter another male dog, you know exactly what you're gonna do.
Um, so this happens a lot because a lot of the dogs that I walk are dog reactive.
Um, or sometimes I don't even the owners aren't even aware or don't even see.
Um, and you also if you're getting approached especially by an off leash dog
that's not even around an owner, You have no idea what that dog's gonna do or how
it's gonna act or what's gonna happen.
So for me, when I'm out with my dog or any other dog, it's If
a dog approaches us, I am no.
Like, I put my hand out.
I the whole thing is you're not coming over here.
Like, you don't wanna come over here?
There's there's nothing you want over here?
You're not coming.
And it's not a, oh my god.
I hope you don't come over here.
It's you're not coming over here.
You're gonna stay right over there.
You're gonna stay right where you are, and you're not gonna come over here.
Now can that fail and the thing charged me?
But in the back of my mind, I'm Okay.
If that happens and, again, I try not to think about that in the
moment because you wanna let your body take over muscle memory anyway.
Plus, you don't wanna be thinking, Oh, but what if it attacks me?
Because then I'm communicating to the dog I'm with that it might come
attack us and the other dog, instead of feeling that wall of resistance of
you shall not pass, the the Gandalf, you shall not pass, it's not happening.
Um, you know, he get He can pick up on that sliver of insecurity of of,
you know, my intention faltering, my me having that reservation of, oh,
he might actually cross that road.
Um, but, again, it's it's if it's an off leash dog, um, you know, I don't have to
worry as much because my dog's on leash.
So if something happens, it's I'm not at fault.
Um, again, of course, I don't want something to happen, so
it's I will use my my legs.
I'll kick it away.
I'll circle around.
Um, 1 thing I know as a natural dog trainer is to keep things moving.
A lot of people wanna stop and get their dog in a sit or stop movement,
which actually heightens, Um, the intensity and the the electricity
in the moment so you wanna keep things moving as much as possible.
Um, so a lot of times when I encounter a an off leash dog.
I won't run.
I won't move away fast, but I'll start circling or I'll start moving
and just keeping the flow going, Um, to kinda just not let everything come
to a head or not let everything stop.
So there's a lot of different things you can do in the moment, but
the biggest thing is to just make sure, Um, you are confident in what
you're gonna do in that situation.
So if you have an idea, have a plan of, okay.
If this happens again, I know how I'm gonna handle the situation.
Then you're no longer scanning.
You're no longer worrying.
You're no longer um, if you see another dog, a male dog or
somebody approaching and It's, oh, we're just gonna keep moving.
We're gonna get out and go over to that way or where I'm not worried about it.
The more you worry about it, the more the dog's gonna worry about it.
If you can rectify Worry.
By creating by being active, by actively, proactively, um, addressing
it, That's how you're gonna get that intention set within yourself.
And then, again, the dog will fall right in line.
It's gonna be like, okay.
You know, mom's got this.
I don't All I'm picking up from mom is confidence and fun, and we're gonna enjoy
our walk no matter what we encounter.
Yeah.
No.
That's
Anke: I mean, definitely, like, over the years, like, I mean, like, these
days, I mean, I always say that, like, I like, it's it's through that
process that I've come to recognized a level of assertiveness in me
that I didn't realize was there.
You know?
Because I'm not what he was saying before.
Like, I'm the same now.
I'm just like, you're not you're not coming.
Right.
You know?
And it's almost like you don't you don't have to say anything.
Right?
You don't have to, like, you don't have to yell at the other dog.
It's is like like Yeah.
You will not
Amanda: Usually, if I'm if I'm vocalizing, it's because there is an
owner present, and so I'm letting the owner know even though I'm talking to
the dog, I'm letting the owner know that they need to get control of their
dog or they need to avoid or they need to, um, it's very much on that.
Like, That's usually the only time I'm vocalizing.
If there's no other human present, then, yeah, it's pure body language and movement
of, yep, cool, hi, nice to see you.
You're gonna stay right over there.
We're gonna walk on by.
Like, there's there's no play happening.
Don't come over.
You know?
There's nothing to see here.
We're just on a walk, and and you you you're better off
staying on that side of the road.
Thank you very much.
Yeah.
Anke: And it makes it just yeah.
It makes just so much of a different so where can can people go and find
out more about natural doctrine and connect with you and really
explore the, you know, sort of
Amanda: but the other way.
Right?
Um, I mean, first and foremost, I like like you, um, I when I
read Kevin's book, uh, Your Dog is Your Mirror, it it it clicked.
Everything just clicked.
It made sense.
I had gone to school for human psychology, and I had a bunch of
questions about even human behavior at that point, and a lot of the answers
before I even got to the dog end really made sense and and really resonated.
Um, it was a very Like, this is this is what I've been looking for.
This is what makes this answers those questions that I've been internally
wrestling with for a long time.
Um, so definitely start, um, with the book, uh, Your Dog is Your Mirror.
If if the information resonates or if you wanna learn more or find more
digestible, Um, it is it is pretty.
It it's a dense read.
Um, there's a lot to munch on in there, and it's it.
It's you I mean, quote after quote after quote where you're just gonna
spend a lot of time just marinating on just the 1 couple sentences.
Um, it's such a good book.
It's got so much in there.
Uh, there's also his website, um, natural dog training dot com that has, Um, his
blog where he has a lot of his posts are up on there, um, that just go over,
uh, so many different topics, Especially if you wanna get into more of the the
theoretical side of really piecing together, um, how he came up with this
theory and and the The complexities and the simplicities of the theory are there.
Um, if you wanna get more into the nitty gritty hands on working with your dog,
Um, there is, uh, the natural dog training study group, um, where you can actually
communicate directly with, um, a bunch of his apprentices, A bunch of the the
trainers that have worked with him.
Uh, if you wanna get in contact with me, um, and do some 1 on like, a Consult
or 1 on 1, um, learning the the 5 core exercises that Kevin taught, Um, and
working on rehabilitating your dog.
Or, again, maybe there's no problems.
Maybe you just wanna foster a a better connection or really understand that
communication, um, that prey predator dynamic, um, the the those kinds
of things, the intention without reservation, um, you wanna, you know,
Work with your dog without even having to use commands and different things.
Um, my website is doggies day off dot com.
Uh, all my services are on there.
Um, again, Um, my phone number, I'm on Instagram, all that fun stuff.
But, definitely, I I would highly recommend starting
with your dog, Dejumeir.
Um, I think that's a great place to start.
Anke: Awesome.
I'll put, obviously, the links are gonna be in the show notes and
below this video if you're, um, watching it through the newsletter.
So thank you.
Thank you so much.
Um, Yeah.
I definitely feel this needs to be out there in a in a much bigger way.
And so whatever we can do to do that, I think, uh, let's do
it.
Amanda: Yes.
And thank you so much for putting all this effort and work into your your
podcast, your business, um, so that there is, You know, and having me on
here so that I can help get that out there, um, that's definitely I think
we share that in common, uh, a goal to get more more eyes and ears and And
and mine's into natural dog training.
Perfectly absolutely.
Anke: So thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.