Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's still me Kevin,
Rob: and it's still me, Rob.
Kevin: How dare they start Star Trek in the middle of a comedy
festival is all I have to say, Rob.
Rob: Look, look, Discovery had an uphill battle with me anyway, and it's
it's not doing itself any favours.
It's making it very hard for me to love by putting it on during the busiest time of
the independent theatre, comedy, improv, cabaret, burlesque scene in Melbourne,
to chuck it on right smack bang in the middle of four weeks of fun and hell,
and do you want to come see my show?
Have you seen my show?
What's going on?
Oh, it's a tough festival.
It's a quiet festival.
It's a tough festival.
It's a fun festival.
Yes.
Kevin: For any of our listeners who may be outside of Melbourne, the Melbourne
Comedy Festival is on at the moment, which is always a busy time for Rob.
And so all this week I've been like, you watched it yet?
Have the Trek yet?
every time I asked, I felt like, you know, I am, I am raising the bar for
what this episode has to do to be a good time for Rob Lloyd and not a chore.
Rob: Look, if there was any way for me to enjoy watching Discovery, it
is watching it knowing that I'll get to talk about it with you.
You are go, oh, listeners, you are not going to have our usual sort of, like,
Kevin: It's not going to be unvarnished praise?
Rob: You're gonna be dragging me along.
You're gonna dragging me through this entire season, kevin.
And me, like a perpetual teenager, going, Are we, are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Kevin: Star Trek Prodigy Season 2 will be along soon enough to provide respite.
Rob: Very excited.
Very excited to get back into the, into Prodigy and, and travel, with,
uh, Janeway, which is the real Janeway.
Kevin: Mmm!
But we're here to talk about the two first episodes of season five of Star Trek
Discovery, episode one, Red Directive, and episode two, Under the Twin Moons.
In Red Directive, there is a secret mission.
They don't know why they're on the secret mission, but they must go on it.
It's very red.
There is, there's a desert planet and a lot of scooter bikes that have been teased
for, it feels like, more than a year.
It feels like more than a year we saw the first trailer with this.
Scooter bikes in the desert, so it was good to finally see where that was.
Rob: When the big trailer came out, they were pushing this scooter bike
sequence, so it's been, um, glad it's right at the top end of the season
to go, Here it is, this is what we've been promising you for, over a year.
Kevin: And at the end, uh, two starships nose down into the planet's surface,
and that, that is the thing we will be talking about in the second half of this
episode, that, that moment of contact – first contact, you might call it – of
Starships bumping into large objects.
Rob: I was gonna say double contact, but there's a little
bit of, a, a hint of sauciness connected to it, which, you know.
Would you expect any less from me, Kevin Yank?
Kevin: So, this episode, Red Directive, big picture, what'd you make of it?
Rob: Okay, so right off the bat, I think I've made it very clear.
I am not the biggest Discovery fan.
Um, I tried in vain to go back and finish season four in preparation for this.
I got two episodes in and I couldn't do it.
Kevin: Did the recap at the start make any sense to you at all?
Cause I it and I was like, if I hadn't seen those episodes, I would
not know what this was saying to me.
Rob: Look, I have no idea what the major threat was.
I get a sense of stuff that's happening.
We definitely hit season five and things are changing.
The norm has changed.
So, we've got Tilly moving on to teaching.
Uh, there's few shows out there, television movies that really
capture the reality of teaching.
Uh, Dangerous Minds with Michelle Pfeiffer does not do it.
Uh, Boston Public does not do it.
Um, Abbott Elementary does a pretty good job of it.
But to have Tilly as a teacher going, I really love teaching!
I'm there going, oh, sweet summer child.
That is one element to a very, very complex rainbow wheel of color shading.
Kevin: Tell me how realistic the tipsy near miss in her quarters
was, that, uh, I wonder how often that happens between tired teachers.
Rob: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that, that hit home so hard.
The reality of that was true.
Um, yeah, we've got Saru is now in a relationship and contemplating moving on.
Book has moved on, so there's definitely a shift and a change within the, the norm of
Discovery, so we hit the ground running.
Um, but there are still things that are, you know, situation normal.
We still have the captain of our starship going on missions, deadly, dangerous
missions, right in the middle of it.
I'm going you've got crew to do that.
Stay on your ship.
Do your job as a captain.
Come on, Michael.
Kevin: I would buy that back when they were in the kirk era, but they have gone
so far into the future that you would expect one of the first things they told
Captain Burnham upon arrival in the 29th century was, Look, you can't the missions
Rob: can't do it.
Kevin: do around here.
Rob: We have, people to do that for you.
Kevin: But it's not just her; we've got this Captain Rayner
who's also pretty gung ho.
So it seems the norm.
Maybe it's come back around like fashion, Rob.
Rob: Look, everything comes back.
Kevin: The Federation is so small now, they, they, they have so few people.
They need the captains on the missions, because who else is going to do it?
Rob: Exactly, yeah, it's, it's not them that are wrong, it's me that's wrong.
That's very true, Kevin.
So yes, usual balance of domestic drama and, issues of, you know,
where the characters are at.
All the characters in some way, shape or form will always doubt their place in
the universe and where they are going.
That's a big thing in Discovery, more so than any other show.
Kevin: Do I deserve this?
Am I in the right place?
Rob: Yeah.
What, what is my place in this universe?
It's a big especially with Burnham.
I mean, it's been a whole journey from, you know, uh, traitor to captain.
And that was the whole point of it.
which we've talked about, you know, you've said many times, the whole
point Of the show was, let's watch someone grow into becoming a captain.
Um, so that means we go through their trials and
tribulations, their ups and downs.
And I did feel like I was coming in very much at the end of, everything
else seemed like I didn't miss much.
It's just like, oh, this is where we are now.
But the Michael and Book thing, I very much felt this sense of okay, they've
gone through some stuff because they were, like, inseparable for, like,
Kevin: I mean the short version is they were even more inseparable.
They were very much a couple in love and then they had a very strong difference of
opinion when Book's planet got destroyed
Rob: That's right.
Kevin: Wanted to, um, Resolve that through revenge if necessary,
but whatever means necessary.
And he stole a, he stole a bomb from Starfleet and set it off,
uh, and, uh, it didn't even work.
So he took the risk and now he's paying the price.
He's, he was sentenced to, uh, community service, thankfully.
Rob: The impotence of toxic masculinity on show even in the you
know, the 34th or whatever century.
But yeah, I was very intrigued because they, um, they dropped the main threat for
this, uh, season, which relates directly back to an obscure, uh, Next Gen episode.
Kevin: Och!
The Chase, season 6 episode 20 of The Next Generation.
One of my favourite episodes of TNG, just because of big piece of world building
it does of going, okay, this thing that has been admittedly conspicuous about
Star Trek all this time, we are going to attempt to explain it by putting
a big, a big puzzle piece into place.
And it was a one off episode and it was never used again until now.
So I'm glad that it's back and that we're it.
Rob: And especially so far in the future, so it's so separated from,
um, the canon that's been established the 90s and recently to just go—
Because it, from what it looks like, it's massive shape changing.
And normally that type of you know, continuity changing stuff as well that
we normally have happen near the end of an animated Star Trek series and then
it just turns out to be, you know, AI.
Kevin: Yeah.
So in the years um, early years of Star Trek The Next Generation,
when Star Trek was just becoming popular again, I remember that this
conversation of, Okay, but why are all of the aliens still humans in makeup?
Can't we do better than that?
Uh, like, there was this sense in the Next Gen era that maybe
we could be shooting for more.
We're not in the 1960s anymore, the budgets are a little higher.
Do we lack the imagination?
And the fans at the time, as I remember it, the fans at the time made up
this sort of lore of like this beta canon lore of the Preservers or the,
actually the Preservers is a name that was, uh, that Spock mentioned in a
original series episode called, uh, the Paradise Syndrome, in season three.
This is the one where There's, uh, an asteroid coming to destroy a planet
where there happens to be Native American Indian tribes on it, inexplicably.
Rob: Sure!
Kevin: Captain Kirk loses his memory and becomes one of the
Rob: Oh yeah, we've talked about that
Kevin: Spock and McCoy need to work together in order to avert disaster.
Rob: Kirk gets married and has, like, his wife's pregnant and then they both die?
Yeah.
Kevin: It's very sad.
But, um, at the end they manage to reactivate this obelisk
that, uh, diverts the asteroid.
Spock says, The obelisk is a marker, just as I thought.
It was left by a super race known as the Preservers.
They passed through the galaxy rescuing primitive cultures, which were in danger
of extinction and seeding them, so to speak, where they could live and grow.
And McCoy says, I always wondered why there were so many humanoids
scattered throughout the galaxy.
And spock said, so have I.
Apparently, the Preservers account for a number of them.
Then when, uh, when The Chase came out in Next Generation, Ronald D.
Moore, who, you know, famous for his work on Deep Space
Nine and Battlestar Galactica,
Rob: And then went on to do For All Mankind, which is amazing.
I'd love to talk to you about that.
Kevin: So he wrote or co wrote this, this episode, The Chase, and he said, um,
he's considered but intentionally did not specify that the ancient humanoids seen
in The Chase were in fact the Preservers.
But there's always been this, you know, this, um, this flirtation with this idea
that there was this great super race that is responsible for all these humanoids.
Is there one called the Preservers?
Are there two?
The Preservers, who did the Indians, and the Progenitors now,
who did the original seeding.
Yeah, this was something that fans were talking about even before
the show was talking about it.
And then, now the show is kind of going, alright, we'll make it official.
Uh, and it's really fun for that reason for me.
Rob: Yeah, and I think it's, um, Look, it is a good way to, to be the to have that
as the arc for the entire final season of Discovery, which in many ways, you know,
was the big bang restart, reboot of, uh, modern Star Trek within the last 15 years.
It very, you know, it has to take credit for that because everything
that has come since is because of Discovery, you know, positive or
negative, no matter where you stand.
So to have its final season focus on something about the actual entire origins
Kevin: I love it.
They have managed to find a big question left unanswered in Star Trek and
they're spending a whole season on it.
I couldn't be happier about
Rob: It's going to be, yeah, interesting to see whether it's
explored deeply or they try and
you know, the Indiana Jones style chase to find these,
Kevin: right.
And at the end they go, actually, we don't want the answers.
We, shouldn't know.
Rob: We shouldn't know, yes.
Why does, what, what does God want with a starship?
Or what do the Progenitors want with a human looking, Uh
Kevin: Well that's interesting to me as well, like, all the times that Star
Trek has, has, I would say, uh, ill advisedly gone, let's go in search of
God, or, the devil, or, you know, this, uh, religious, um, explanation for the
Rob: Which was a very Roddenberry thing, wasn't it?
Kevin: Yeah, it was so odd.
I guess, late in life, that is what he was interested in.
And, and I thought it never worked to, it never played to Star Trek's strengths.
But this stuff is kind of, I think, exploring the same sort of
theme, but in a science, Science, capital S science fiction way.
Like, what if all of the things that we often attribute to religion
actually had a scientific explanation and that mean to our sense of self
and our sense of, uh, the galaxy?
That, that is Star Trek for me.
Rob: Look, and it's, it's a double edged sword, and it's a, it's
a thin line you have to walk.
It has been explored in many different, I mean, everything old is
new again when it comes to sci fi.
But, you know, stuff like, uh, Doctor Who explored that quite a bit, because back
in the 70s there was a lot of theories about, like, the chariots of the god
type thing, where, you know, ancient Earth civilization was actually Um,
inspired by aliens visiting thousands of years ago and giving them knowledge.
That's like, whole part of it.
That was explored in a lot of, a couple of Doctor who, stories back in the day.
Kevin: I mean, that's, ultimately what Stargate's about as well,
Rob: Exactly.
Yeah.
And um, even with the dangers of it, it's stuff like, um, Prometheus.
Where they take this B grade concept from Aliens and Alien and try to,
um, When Ridley Scott comes back and goes, I want to make my own version
of 2001, but with, you know, B grade, you know, um, Alien monsters.
And so brings in, you know, all, you know, all the space jockeys and turning
them into these creatures that go from civilization to civilization, giving
them knowledge or taking it away, it can either work or fail, depending on how
it's well thought out, so it's a thin line that Discovery is working on, but I'm
Kevin: gonna, is, is there, is there a there there?
Like, do they ultimately have something to say with this platform,
I is what we're looking for.
Rob: And that's the thing, isn't it?
Yeah, they have to say something other than what Michael Burnham
feels, and that's going to be very interesting to see how they do that.
Kevin: The Chase had a the original episode in Next Gen, The Chase had a
funny ending that, like, it was, um, first of all, it was like a multi race,
uh, like, right now in Discovery, we've got the the Starfleet racing against
these two, um, kind of renegades.
And we don't really know their story yet,
Rob: The two thieves.
Kevin: race.
In the chase, it was a Starfleet versus the Klingons versus the
Cardassians versus the Romulans.
All four of these groups were, were independently chasing down clues.
And they, they ultimately could only find the solution by putting
their, their knowledge together.
Um, and then the Romulans walked in at the last minute and said,
we've shadowing you all under cloak.
Ha ha ha.
Rob: Ha ha ha!
Kevin: And, uh, and standing in the back row was this extra who now
is a whole character in Discovery.
Rob: I hope that actor gets some sort of like, you know, recognition.
Yeah.
Kevin: They recast him for the older, the older version of him in holographic
form, but it's a pretty good match.
And the funny is, you go back and look on Memory Alpha, and the, the
role, which has been retitled Vellek, because he wasn't even named in the
Rob: He was just Romulan In the background.
Kevin: Yeah, so now it's named Vellek, but it still says Unknown performer.
Rob: Ha
Kevin: know, at least as far as fandom is concerned, we have
no idea who played that part.
Rob: In the original.
Kevin: And it's entirely possible that the producers of Star Trek
don't know who played that part.
It may be lost to history
Rob: Well, yeah man.
Kevin: that they're using their likeness and putting a box around him on a
view screen and going, I hope this guy doesn't, you know, come around and sue us.
Rob: Or maybe that's why they, because there were a couple of
others around there, why did they specifically pick the one that they have
Kevin: One would hope they figured out who he is and done a deal with him.
Rob: Well, they've done pretty well with hunting down, like,
former, uh, character actors who
had bit parts and have even moved on from acting to come back to do
voices of their character who was killed in original Lower Deck one.
Kevin: It was a non speaking role, so it literally would have been a
day player who put up in makeup.
And, uh, do they keep track of those names?
I don't know.
Rob: Yeah, maybe, like you know, in old school, hard copy, paper trail, have to
have a name of the ex, because that's the thing, you get paid, you don't get
paid as much if you're not talking.
As soon as you say any line, you have to get paid more.
So that would have been the lowest of low, you know, schmo
working actor being on in makeup.
I mean, it's a hell of a job to get paid a little bit of money, make to
look like an alien and stand around on the set for a day in the 90s.
Kevin: Yeah.
And then, 30 years later
Rob: So what— Hopefully it wasn't Crispin Glover, because we don't
want to go through that issues again from Back to the Future 2.
Kevin: All right.
I've got a few like highlights.
Let's rapid fire through these.
So, um, first I noted, this is the first episode of Discovery where
the Star Trek splash screen of the ship flying around the nebula at the
and making the, the Delta happens.
That's how long it's been since we've had a new episode of Discovery.
They, they've started doing that since season four of Discovery.
Uh, so seeing the ship, um, Spore jump in and then,
take off actually delightful.
Rob: And was, yeah, and it was Discovery because I've mostly
been seeing it in Strange New Worlds where it's the enterprise.
Kevin: yep.
And yeah, it's, uh, it's in all the other ones as well.
Lower Dex does it in animated form with, uh, the koala hidden in the
nebula, but yeah, they're doing it.
Uh, this, this episode opens with a warp seen from the outside, so it's
kind of like a push in on space, and there's a bit of twinkling, and then
we go into the twinkling, and we see a ship in a warp bubble, and then go
into the warp bubble, and it's Burnham standing on the back of the, the ship.
And uh, that, having just watched it recently, that effect of warp seen
from the outside is almost exactly what is established in Star Trek
Beyond, the last feature film of Star
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: We see, in the opening moments of that film as well, we see the
Enterprise warping from the outside of the warp bubble, and it looks exactly
like that, so I enjoyed the consistency.
Rob: Excellent.
I'm going to say I'm a huge, I'm a huge fan of, for me, the highlight
was David Cronenberg back as, as our mysterious architect in the background.
I mean, yeah, he's not an incredible actor, but he just, the gravity
that he has as this old Canadian filmmaker pushing boundaries of body
horror, um, is, is just, I mean, I absolutely having a ball going, I'm
in Star Trek, I'm friggin lovin it.
Kevin: I like it every time.
They have centered him in this year's plot, so we're gonna see
a lot of him, I suspect, which
Delightful, yes.
Rob: Very welcome.
Kevin: Red directive.
What do you think of this concept of a red directive?
Because I, I both love and hate that it is never fully explained.
They never stop and say a red directive is dot, dot, dot, dot.
It's just a bunch of people going, this is a red directive, so stop arguing with me.
And they all Oh, it's a red directive.
Okay.
Rob: To use it in the title and be so vague about it, kinda shat me up the wall.
But, this is the type of thing that happens with me and
Discovery all the friggin time.
So, if you're gonna bring in a new directive thing, say
what the friggin hell it is.
Come on, don't just, I know you all seem important and seem,
you know, see the gravity of it.
We can't see the gravity of it, because we don't know what it is.
Kevin: I have to say it feels like, section 31 all over again to
It's this, it's this shadowy side of like, okay, Starfleet is telling
people what to do and saying you're not allowed to know why.
It's the it's the covert ops of Starfleet and initially we are asked to accept that
it's for the greater good, but inevitably, when they introduce something like this,
the only interesting place to take it is absolute power corrupts absolutely, and
we end up at war with Section 31's fleet of robot ships, and, um, I don't know
if I want to go down that road again.
So, I hope the red directive is used sparingly and briefly
and never heard from again.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's, in that case of bringing in Section 31 always is at odds in some ways
with that, you know, shining vision of the future, um, that, and it's always
finding that balance of do you need a little bit of that darkness to keep
the light of Federation, but how much manipulation does this underworld lead?
It's very much like a Dark Knight type of situation where there's so much
machinations underneath that everything's far too clever for its own good.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: So finding that balance is going to be interesting.
Kevin: In the next episode, I think, uh, Captain Rayner says, I've been
on seven red directives already.
And I'm just like, Whoa, okay.
That's too many red directives.
don't care what it is.
too many.
Rob: It takes away the importance of it.
You go, well, I've done seven.
Well, I've done 20.
All right, you know, let's, stop comparing red directives.
okay?
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, we meet our, our antagonists, let's say In the uh, in the season,
uh, Moll and L'ak, and L'ak's head is initially transparent when he takes off
his helmet on the ship, which is cool.
I, I don't know if there's going to be a story there, but they seem to be
making a point of reminding us that we don't know what species L'ak is.
Rob: Yeah, because he's a little bit first season Discovery Klingon looking.
It'll be interesting to see if they are the, because they don't
seem to be like the main threat.
They're just like, um, they, they seem to be sort of like just, you
know, soldiers of fortune, but not really helping anybody out.
Just moving place to place, doing this thing, and they've just
seemed to have stumbled across this major universal important thing.
Um.
There doesn't seem to be any sort of like, overarching, um,
purpose for what they're doing.
And even if they did, it seems a little bit out of character for these two, who
just seem to be, you know, scraping along the best they can within this future.
Kevin: The whole sequence on the desert planet looked very expensive to me.
I, I noted that they put this episode on YouTube for free,
at least in the United States.
So, seems to have been this strategy of this is, we're going to attempt to
attract some new audience with this and spend a lot of money to do it.
Um, the fact that they were teasing these speeder, desert speeder bikes a year ago,
speaks to that for me as well, that like, this is a set piece episode in the season.
I'm expecting, we won't see Discovery looking this expensive
until maybe the season finale.
Rob: Yeah, they've, yeah, pretty much used up all their money now,
and spread it sparingly so they can use it again for the final
Kevin: There were, there were like five 10 minute sequences where I was watching
going this is all amazing and beautiful and I'm pretty sure I haven't seen a
flesh and blood actor in five minutes.
All CG.
Rob: Exactly, exactly.
Definitely bringing that cinematic feel to the, uh, to the small screen, um, and
to really just make people go, Ooh, ah, as opposed to what we like about Star
Trek, we go, Ooh, ah, when there's people sitting around talking about policy.
Kevin: We had Fred the synth asking how we can make an excellent deal today, Moll
L'ak, after on the sounds of their names.
Rob: Elements of Data, obviously, but also a little bit of Vorta, just
Kevin: Yeah, he could play a Vorta, couldn't he?
Rob: A little bit of a sinister Vorta, had a, had an element of,
Kevin: He was a slimy android.
Rob: Not full Jeffrey Combs, and not fully batshit crazy Iggy Pop, but um,
but definitely an element of Vorta there.
Kevin: I should ask, as a Deep Space Nine fan, did you recognize that
ancient humanoid Progenitor in the still shot from Next Generation?
Because the actress who plays it is also, she came back to play the
Founder, the head of the Founders.
Rob: I was having a good look when it came I went, oh that's an
interesting looking creature, I haven't seen The Chase obviously.
Um, and then I went, ooh, is that, she looks a little bit
Kevin: voice, it's definitely her, yeah.
Before she was the Founder, she was the ancient humanoid from The Chase.
Rob: Who would have thought Star Trek likes to bring actors
back to play different roles?
Kevin: The split screen, uh, moment in, on the speeder bikes where they're,
they're bickering back and forth and then the split, the screen splits,
and uh, made me sit back in my seat and kind of go, I don't hate it.
I don't love it.
My partner, Jess, kind of went, nah, they lost me.
That is too silly.
Uh, and to me, it, it just added to this feeling that I think is the biggest
challenge for Discovery is that the technology needs to be so advanced
that so much stuff feels magical, and there's this, there's this feeling
that there are no rules and anything could happen and so nothing matters.
And when the split screens came in, I kind of went, this is almost, um,
uh, it's like a meta version of that, is that this show has no format.
So when it breaks the format, you're almost like, is it breaking the format?
Or is the fact that there is no format, there is no consistent
style, is that what Discovery is?
Is it, it's a playground for whatever idea they have that week.
Rob: Pretty much, and I think that's what's been its challenge in really
connecting with um, Yeah, and that's what's made it easy for people who aren't
real big Star Trek fans to connect to it, um, because they don't have that lore, us
ingrained in it for so long, we're there going, but you just, you're not following
any of the things been established, and it's not charming, it's infuriating.
And like you said, yeah, it is a case of, it feels like Harry Potter, that
just everything appears when they need it
Kevin: A beautiful analogy.
Yes, absolutely.
Everything works when you need it.
When Burnham falls through the hole in the ship and is immediately enveloped
by an instant space suit that has a jet pack that can take her over to
the cloaked ship that she can land on.
I was just like, I am enjoying this.
Like, it is entertaining and a little funny, like, and it's played well.
When she gets hit by the space degree and goes, Oh, that didn't feel good.
Like, I did laugh.
But Star Trek has always had rules, and I don't know if I'm just a grumpy, old Star
Trek fan, or if there needs to be rules for the, the rule breaking to matter.
Rob: Yeah, I mean, it has taken away a little bit, I mean, with weekly sci
fi, we, you know, the redshirt problem was always a major issue, because you
go, well, those guys are gonna die, because we're not losing Spock or Kirk,
but it was that case of, because of this technology, they're invincible,
so being hit by space debris and just doing like a John McClane line from Die
Hard of, oh that's gonna hurt, um, and also like the moment of the threat of
we're in warp, we've got this tractor beam, Burnham's on the back of it, you
gotta get out of it, Oh I'm flying away.
And then she just flies into the bridge of Discovery is warped in
and just walks straight ahead.
I'm going, you're trying to
Kevin: out breath, Rob.
She's out of breath.
Rob: Is she though?
I think she's out of one breath she gets straight back into it.
And that for me, I just went, I'm like throwing my plate up in the
air, I'm throwing my water at the screen going, this is ridiculous.
You just want it to look cool and you've taken away any threat, any
type of danger at all, because this person is a god and can do no wrong.
Kevin: Then there's the avalanche and uh, the ships nose down in the desert,
which, which, like everything else in this episode, looked really cool, was
entertaining, I don't know, uh, In research for this episode, I have watched
a lot of other starship crashes, and they were much more violent than this one.
There's that brace, brace, brace, moment, and the ship hits the ground, and everyone
kind of just shifts in their seat.
They didn't even shake the camera particularly hard.
And I thought to myself, if this isn't dangerous, if, if flying a starship
into the desert is not dangerous.
What is dangerous in this world at this point?
Rob: it did end up on a jaunty 45 degree angle and move slightly up down.
It looked cool, but yeah, there's so much, especially, I mean,
Kevin: At least fall out of your chair.
There were people standing who, you know, they didn't, like they shifted,
but they didn't really stumble.
Rob: It's more of a, a movie thing, because they've got, we've got
the money now, let's do a crash, as opposed to back in the 60s
or even the 90s where they went.
Well, in the 60s they went, well, we can't have the ship land every day, we don't
have the money, let's create beaming.
Um, and in the 90s they're going, we've still got to save our money, so let's use
the same stock footage of ships flying.
Um, it's definitely a movie thing, but in all crashes
previously, there's fatalities.
No matter what happens, whether you're injured or some people are
hurt, but people die every time the crash happens in, in Star Trek.
That's the threat.
You lose, sure, they're unknowns in the background,
but you lose one or two people.
They break a leg or hurt themselves, but one or two people die.
This one, they didn't even get kicked out of their seat!
Kevin: Yeah.
But, I don't know, bombastic opening to the season.
I like what they're doing with the plot.
That, that problem of nothing matters has been true for more
than a season now, so it's not new.
Uh, but I, I sure wish they, they, I sure wish they would have made more of
a starship crashing into the desert.
So, uh, we'll, we'll talk about that.
The one thing they did do with it, though, is when the ship warped back or, or jumped
back to, uh, Starfleet Headquarters, there was, uh, sand floating off of its hull
into space, and I loved the look of that.
At first I thought it was just kind of like steam, and I thought it
was something new they were doing with the spore jump effect, and I
thought that looked really cool.
I regret that there isn't, you know, spores floating off the surface
of the ship every time it jumps now, because it looked awesome.
But anyway, that is Red Directive.
Let's briefly talk about Under the Twin Moons before we share our
other examples of starship crashes.
Rob: Yeah, this one was more of a, uh, a two hander, so it was definitely focusing
on, Saru's final mission before he becomes ambassador and goes off to get married,
as, uh, some cultures would call it.
And so like, you know, Saru and Burnham again, oh, who would
have thought, but, um, Yeah.
Burnham and Saru going on this, uh, vital mission to find out a bit more
about where the possible location of this planet where the thing
is with the thing with the thing.
Kevin: I really enjoyed the two hander with Saru and Burnham.
I mean the you gave me my second chance, and what am I gonna do without
a first officer like you stuff?
It is laid on a bit thick, but it is mostly earned from me having watched
the four seasons up until now.
And just the fun of the romp through the forest, action Saru
and all that sort of stuff was fun.
I really enjoyed Burnham wrestling with the decisions
she was making on the planet.
Like she wanted to sacrifice herself to the drones rather than sending
Saru, but ultimately she made the hard choice and seeing her grit her
teeth and go, Oh, I might regret this.
And then it turning out to be the right decision.
Like all of that stuff, uh, along with the science team on the ship, like,
working in real time with them unravel the puzzle of the electromagnetic field.
All of that felt like A grade Star Trek to me, and I really enjoyed it.
Rob: Action with science is always a good balance with Star Trek.
We've got the people doing the actiony stuff and they need the scientists
to work at double speed, triple speed to sort out this problem.
So it's science and action hand in hand always works well.
Kevin: We're losing our foot here.
Oh my god, who lost their foot?
No, no.
It's a it's
Rob: a turn
Kevin: He he he he he
Rob: It's always great seeing Doug Jones flex his action muscles.
But yeah, it is that case of, there's always that element for me of Star Trek
of, I love the, the regimented formal nature of everything, and so when
emotions are conveyed, for me it hits more powerfully because it's seeping through
Kevin: Right, it needs cracked, cracking through the surface, uh, unintentionally.
Rob: You know,
Kevin: Oh, here's the part of the day where I'm going to profess
my feelings to my co workers.
Rob: So yeah, so it's so much more powerful at the end of Star Trek 2
when it's even like with the death of spock and the the trauma of seeing
him die in, you know, radiation.
But that moment where his voice cracks on human, that's where you lose your shit,
because you could see, you can see how much this has affected Kirk, but he keeps
it in, whereas Burnham cries at the drop of a hat, and it's I know that drama has
evolved, but they, were able to keep that up, even with Next Gen, some of those
connections with, with, uh, you know, the, the community that was created within The
Next Gen, uh, cast, and the emotions they displayed in a, in in that capacity was
incredible, but Burnham is very much a case of I'm so frustrated, I'm so angry.
What am I going to do without you?
It's, it's very laid on thick, and it's very hard for me to connect with.
Kevin: I'll agree that it's, it's still there in a way that I wish
that it wasn't, but I think they have toned it down a step, at least in this
episode, in a way that I appreciate.
And, and that, that moment behind the rock when, when you see Burnham send
her first officer potentially to his death, and she is expressing emotion,
not to someone, but to herself.
Um, and it's, it, it is seeping out of her professional demeanor,
like, that is the moment I've been craving more of in, in Discovery.
Rob: Yeah, it's, I mean, it's a masterclass as well from Doug Jones
and that's why he is the best at what he does because he plays that
element of Spock, Data element of not being as emotional as the human.
But because of that, that affords him this beautiful range and nuance
to how he expresses his emotion.
Plus under layers and layers of makeup, he is just a superstar of conveying
emotion through character work.
Kevin: but those those boots as well.
Man, am loving how much full body Saru we're getting this well, because
he looks twice as alien when you see his, feet and legs as well.
Rob: How can he run in those things?
I'm there going Bryce Dallas Howard, how can you beat a T
Rex in heels in Jurassic World?
Um, her and Doug Jones should get together and have a hundred
meter dash and see who, who wins.
Oh, my god.
Kevin: That's right.
Um, the Ready Room after show this episode talks, uh, talks about
the running in the forest stuff.
And Doug Jones, um, gives credit to his stunt guy who is shown
in a behind the scenes clip.
They, they put a conveyor belt on the floor of the forest, uh, to
enable the person to run faster.
So it's a stunt guy in the tall boots running on a conveyor belt
in the forest past the camera.
And, uh, it looks great, but wow.
It's quite a, quite a physical feat.
Rob: Yeah, those sequences I really liked.
I'm watching it there going, this is, This is, this is, you know, I'm not
saying it with chagrin, I'm not saying it you know, biting my lip going, alright,
I'm there going, no, this is good Star Trek, this is, this is, you know, sure,
they just put their hand out and they, and they, you know, um, uh, accio their
guns, going, Oh, for heaven's sake, that's just, that's just fancy for no
reason, you have holster, I don't care if you're three million years in the future.
You can have your gun in a holster.
It's all right.
Oh my gosh.
Stop showing off so much.
Kevin: Turn out the lights when you leave the room.
Rob: I love the, I love the, I was a bit, excited, but I
realized the money wasn't there.
The big statues, and like huge hand coming out of the, foresty jungle
was really fascinating, and the head creeping out of the earth was great.
And I was hoping, like, when they looked at it and they went, oh
no, and the eye kind of opened, I went, is that head gonna move?
I was really excited going, that would be, oh, okay, no, there's
just creatures inside it that just look probes and, you know.
But yeah, I had that element of, yeah, yeah, come on.
I don't want to just see bikes one week.
I want to see huge, rock like creatures come out.
Oh, okay, no.
We've just got the probes.
Kevin: We had the desert last week when we had the forest this week.
Are we gonna have the ice planet next week and the week after?
Rob: Follow the George Lucas, uh, color plate of planets.
So, yep, have, have, uh, sand and green and let's have either ice or lava.
Kevin: Well we're going to Trill, so we know we we're having the
caverns with the blue liquid next.
Rob: We will have the caverns and the blue liquid, love a good bit of Trill action.
But, um, Saru using his, his, uh, darts to knock out all the probes was a little
bit cartoon 80s, uh, series for me.
Kevin: I, I appreciate the payoff, like, they made a big deal of Saru
getting those darts two seasons ago, hasn't really amounted to much, so I'm
glad they used it before they send off the character onto his next mission.
Rob: Now, do we know that Doug is out, or is he just, is he still in
it, just not on the ship every week?
Kevin: Um, it is, unclear.
Certainly his interview on the Ready Room, was a farewell interview, but Wil
Wheaton was very careful to say, This is your last week on the USS Discovery as
first officer, so I think it's gonna be a Tilly situation, um, where they come
and go as their availability dictates.
Rob: Of course.
Kevin: Yeah.
This is a feeling I get from modern Star Trek in general and it's the
difference from the 1980s and 90s when we had 24 episode seasons and
actors were locked into contracts and if you're making 24 episodes a year
you don't have time to do much else.
That is your full time job.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: Here in, in the 2020s, We're doing ten episodes, it's being shot in two or
three months, and the rest of the year is your time, and, and you are using your
platform on Star Trek as an actor to get other gigs, and you're becoming more and
more famous, more and more expensive, more and more difficult to schedule,
and, so, I am as a viewer, I can't escape the feeling as these characters
sometimes are not present, sometimes are mentioned off screen, um, that this
is, kind of a side gig for everyone.
I just don't feel the commitment and dedication professionally that
we used to get from our Star Trek.
I don't know if I have a legitimate grievance there as an audience member.
But, uh, but yeah.
I want Tig Notaro every single week.
She's either on the show or she's not.
Rob: Of course!
Kevin: And the fact that half the cast are guest stars kind of bothers me in a way.
And this isn't just a Discovery thing.
It's, it's even happening in Strange New Worlds.
Rob: Look, well it is, I mean, I mean, for me Discovery has always
been, it hasn't been an ensemble, it's been Michael Burnham.
It's been the Michael Burnham show, and everyone else is a supporting character.
Um, but it is, you brought up a very, uh, important issue, and it's definitely
come into light, uh, last year with, I'm sorry to get a bit, uh, serious from the
outside world, but the writers' strike and the actors' strike showed that, um,
the way that we consume our entertainment has changed so much, uh, over the decades,
and especially at the moment, where in a form of consuming entertainment
that we haven't fully understood or set up regulations for, so it's kind
of been dictated by studios and these faceless, um, rich, uh, Um, white guys
who are doing it for money and profit as opposed to, uh, artistic endeavour.
So finding that balance has always been tough ever since, you know, theatre
was created or acting was created.
But it has become a case of we're not looking at actors who are making
big bucks, millions of dollars.
These are, these are jobbing actors.
Kevin: Yeah.
I certainly don't blame the actors for taking other jobs and
pursuing their career and doing what they need to pay the bills.
It is unfortunate, I guess, if I'm complaining about anything,
it is the system that you describe
Rob: Mmm,
Kevin: prevents actors from making, uh, the living they deserve when they are on
the biggest Star Trek show, uh, going.
Rob: Yeah.
I mean, you know, to get your equity card you need to have worked so many jobs and
to, yeah, To earn enough money just to have health care as an actor, you need to
earn a certain amount of money every year.
And most actors, the 95 percent of actors who are working in America
at the moment, um, don't have enough money for a sustainable, uh, career.
And that's horrifying.
Even someone like Doug Jones, who is an established performer, uh, a trailblazer
when it comes to physical performance, you know, practical performance.
Um, they've gotta, these aren't superstars, these aren't Leonardo
DiCaprio's or stuff like that, these are actors working from job to job.
And if their, if, if their schedules have been dropped from 24 episodes a year to
just 10, they've got so much free time, and they can't just stick around and
wait, they, like you said, they've gotta, they've gotta earn their, their their
money, they've gotta, pay their rent.
They've got to be able to, you know, if they get sick, they need
to be able to pay to get healed.
Kevin: In some ways, they're like, this is the cost of things getting better.
Like, I mean, we had Anson Mount somewhat absent from season two of
Strange New Worlds because his wife was having a baby and he was a new father.
And, and you read back to the original series, and the movies and Next Generation
era and people could not take time away to be with their family when they were having
kids and marriages collapsed because.
The number of divorces created by Star Trek is probably in
into the three figures by now.
And the fact that in today's, um, modern way of making prestige television,
people can and do take time away, I mean, I can't argue against that.
As a selfish audience member it makes a difference.
There is a cost.
Rob: And it does and it does make it harder to make, you know, when you
see characters 24 episodes a season for seven seasons, whether they're,
you know, and that, whether they're incredible episodes or dud episodes,
whether they're just in the background or whether they're a crucial character
in it, they are there just from being for there for so long in your face, you, they
become an in, in, you know, connected, interwoven with your heart, but cutting
it down from 24 to 10 at the most.
Yeah, when those characters leave And move, it's harder to
have that emotional connection.
Even like in season one of, um, Strange New Worlds, where we had, uh, uh,
you know, a character loss, it was heartbreaking, but you're there going,
well, this character was wonderful and lovely, and I'm glad that, uh, he's
been coming back in other roles over season two, but you're there going,
it's powerful, but it's not really hitting hard, because they've only
been around for six, seven episodes.
Kevin: Discovery's gonna end, and it's gonna have made 50 episodes of television
and that barely more than two seasons of Star Trek The Next Generation.
Star Trek The Next Generation was only just getting good by
the end of season two, so wonder, it's no wonder these shows,
Rob: And that's the thing, like, the big rule back, the big rule back in the
day was you had to hit 100 episodes for syndication, was that Yeah, so that was,
episode, TV shows, especially genre shows, always going, we gotta hit that 100.
Cause that's where residuals, that's where, you know, the real money comes in.
Because that's the money that will keep on coming through advertising,
through cable, through all that type of stuff, where the show will just keep
on running and that's how actors like Sarah Michelle Gellar, Um, can keep on
working but they get a large chunk of their money from residuals and that's a
big issue with streaming at the moment.
There's no, there's no transparency about how many people are watching, how
much money the streamers are making and so therefore how much money is deserved
to the actors and producers and, oh sorry, and the um, production crew.
Kevin: So back to Under the Twin Moons, apart the jaunt on the planet, the other
big, like, there were two other elements to this episode, there was Rayner's trial,
his retirement, and his appointment as first officer of Discovery next week.
I'm looking forward to that, how that's gonna go.
I think that will be an interesting and entertaining change from Saru.
Rob: I like Rayner.
Look, he's a pain In the arse, but that's what the show needs.
It needs someone who doesn't just adore Burnham.
Someone
Kevin: Some some non sentimentality, please.
Rob: Oh, oh, please?
Can we please?
There's a, there's a, there's a show in the 80s called V.
I don't know if you ever watched V.
I loved
Kevin: I've never watched it, no.
Rob: Yeah, so it's about lizard aliens who come to Earth disguised as humans
and try and, you know, uh, Say they're bringing all this technology, but in the
end, they're just trying to harvest us all and take them back, take us back for food.
It was very much an analogy of World War II.
It came out in the early 80s.
Anyway, all the characters were very clean cut, you know, all white, you
know, white hat brigade type of heroes.
And they did like tele movies, and about halfway through the third, the
second tele movie, they introduced a character called Ham Tyler, played
by the great Michael Ironside.
I don't know if Michael Ironside's ever done a Star Trek, he's
definitely, you know, done his fair share of uh, genre work.
Kevin: So he'd fit right in is what you're saying.
Rob: Yeah, and he, but he came in as like a ynerna character.
Ham Tyler came into V and he was a mercenary.
He was, you know, He he did all the underhanded nasty stuff that all the other
pure white hat characters wouldn't do.
And that was what the show needed.
It needed a character to come in who gets down in the dirt, gets gritty, who,
you know, is a little bit of an anti hero, which we use as a phrase nowadays.
But this is what I see in Rayner.
Rayner's that character who isn't involved in the sycophantic, oh, I love you.
No, I love you.
I love you.
He's there going, this is bullshit.
Um, I'm not gonna do what you say.
Ha
Kevin: Can we go, can we stop talking about our feelings
and walk forward please?
He did that twice the first episode and it was great.
Rob: Yeah, and like, like we didn't even see him for these first sequences.
He's just a voice, a voice, in a uh, with a tractor beam ship.
Um, and the, the trial scene was amazing.
I just love it, he's just there going, this is crap.
I don't like any of this.
And swearing, I'm going, okay, I'm not a big fan of swearing in Star Trek.
But I'm going,
Kevin: No, it could have done without it, But still,
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And like just there going, we all think this at some point, you know, even during
the beautiful episode of, uh, Strange New Worlds Season 2 with the trial.
We're just screaming at Rebecca Romijn going, just say this is all crap.
Just stand up and walk out.
You don't deserve to be put on trial.
But he said it, he's there going, you know,
Kevin: is politics.
Rob: It's all politics, and going, great, love it, Yeah, and he, and, Yeah, he's
the perfect balance for, for Burnham.
Burnham doesn't need someone just telling her how wonderful she is, need someone
Kevin: is too sentimental for her own good, and Rayner is not
sentimental enough for his own good.
Rob: Yeah, he's, he, he's the pragmatist, uh, she's the sentimentalist.
Sentimentalist?
Sentimentalist, yeah.
Um, So I'm very interested to see where that goes.
And, um, some interesting stuff going on with Book.
They're trying to make it seem
Kevin: Moll is Book's mentor's daughter, which I just wrote, small galaxy.
This is the small galaxy problem we get in Star Trek.
Everyone is related to everyone.
Yeah.
Rob: With you saying that, saying it back to me now, I make sense of it, but for
me, all I can hear when you say that is your Rick Moranis in Spaceballs going,
I was your former brother's sister's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
Kevin: Book took the name of his mentor.
There has been a long line of couriers named Cleveland Booker,
and and there's always a Cleveland Booker in the neighborhood.
So the Book that we know just took on that mantle from his mentor.
But what we are, what we learned this week is that Moll was the daughter
of the previous Cleveland Booker.
Rob: Yeah, they tried to put in all this effort, to go, This is
the daughter of a guy I knew.
Kevin: I never
Rob: I went, Oooooh, this is important?
Yeah,
Kevin: I gotta say, it's one thing to go, look, for plot, for plot reasons,
we, these two people have to have met, even though it's a great big galaxy.
But at least from what we've seen this week, it doesn't actually mean much.
So why bend over backwards to make that happen?
Oh, well, I guess we'll see next week.
Rob: Look, and continuing on with the magic, going, Okay, here's a photo of,
or an image of this particular character.
Okay, de age it.
You know, what, 12 years?
And the hair color changes?
I'm get the hell out of
Kevin: computer knows that she did a bleach job.
Rob: It's, oh my god, it's just like, yeah, it's like in um, Blade Runner,
where they have a really dodgy, grainy photo, and all that Uh, Harrison Ford has
to do is say, enhance, enhance, oh okay, and that clears up the photo as well?
Get the hell out of here, you're using, you're using science
fiction as magic, yeah, it's
Kevin: more true every day with these AI models, Rob.
Rob: Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, alright, okay, okay.
Okay, okay, sorry, my, my AI is glitching, I'm not really here, I'm still in bed.
Kevin: Oh,
Rob: is the AI avatar of me.
Kevin: Let's talk about crashing starships.
Rob: Yes!
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Let's
Kevin: You go first.
You go first.
What comes to mind?
Rob: Okay, well, I won't go with the obvious one.
Are we going timeline or are we just going wibbly wobbly
Kevin: Just go wibbly wobbly.
We're finding our feet again.
Rob: Well, I kind of am going from original series.
I'm jumping into the movies and I'm jumping into the kelvin timeline.
I'm going into the film that dare not speak its name because it's a piece of
arse, but I will talk about Into Darkness.
Kevin: Yesssss.
Rob: It's got the big, because it does what all the Michael Bay movies did.
Are we gonna have a big crash just out in the middle of nowhere?
No, it's more exciting if it happens in a city!
Kevin: In a city!
I am glad you want to talk about this one because, um, yeah, I have
such mixed feelings about this one.
I rewatched it.
It is an impressive piece of CG.
Rob: It looks amazing.
Kevin: looks amazing.
The chase through San Francisco looks amazing.
I never think back to this fondly because the movie has
already lost me by this point.
Rob: Oh God.
It completely.
In some ways?
Oh, Sorry.
Sorry.
I'm projecting.
Yeah.
Kevin: But on its own, this is an incredible sequence.
The thing that I remember the most about it is before I saw this movie,
I saw the posters for this movie, and I saw trailers for this movie.
And the posters had the silhouette of a Starfleet ship with a saucer
and two nacelles kind of nosing down.
I think one even had it plowing through San Francisco Bay with, uh,
kicking up the water in front of it.
So it was again, a silhouette backlit.
Rob: That image was shared around a lot.
Kevin: Yeah, and certainly the final trailer, it has a brief clip of
something moving through the skyscrapers of San Francisco for half a second.
And then later in the trailer, it has the iconic saucer plowing through
the water, kicking it up backlight.
And in In all of the marketing for this movie, we are led to believe
that is the Enterprise crashing.
There are lines from Scotty that says, The ship!
It's dead!
We're going down!
All of the clips in the, in the marketing lead us to believe this
is gonna be an Enterprise crash.
And so we as audience all showed up expecting, bracing ourselves
for the Enterprise crash sequence.
And this is a J.
J.
Abrams bit of, uh, sleight of hand, where, uh, he played a trick on us.
And in the same way that they did not admit until the movie was out that
Benedict Cumberbatch was playing Khan,
Rob: No, he's John…
Kevin: John
Rob: Harriman.
John Harriman!
That's gee.
No, no, he's not Khan, he's not Khan at all.
Sure it's on IMDB, but no, no, no.
He's this new character that you've never heard of before,
but we're going to invest in.
Kevin: But yeah, this personally, and I can't really explain it, but it bothered
me more than the Khan thing, was in movie, Enterprise, you know, it loses
all power, it's plummeting towards the earth, you're like, here it goes, here
we go, we're gonna have the crash,
Rob: Thing from the footage!
Kevin: And then at the last minute, Kirk sacrifices himself, reconnects
the engine, and the ship like, lifts up above the cloud layer and all is saved.
And then the big, bad ship, the, the Vengeance, I think it's called,
swooshes past and under, uh, because it's, it's had all of the torpedoes
exploded in it, it crashes, and Khan deliberately directs it towards San
Francisco as his last act of revenge.
And I was, wow, this is all impressive, but sitting in the cinema, I was sitting
there going, huh, they tricked us.
The Enterprise isn't going to crash.
I was, I was all ready to mourn my friend, the Enterprise once
and nope, it's a bait and switch.
And now bring myself to care.
Rob: And then they just went, just wait until the next movie, we'll
blow up the Enterprise again.
Kevin: I dare say this crash has the most implied carnage associated with it.
Like, is the most deadly crash we've seen in Star Trek.
And not a lot is made of it.
It's like, at the end, it's like, Wow, we managed to bring Kirk back to life.
Weren't we lucky?
And no mention made of the doubtless thousands of people killed in
the San Francisco incident.
Rob: You have knocked down so many towers.
Oh my god, yeah, there are so many people, there are people in that!
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: Yeah, it's like the Superman movie with, um, Henry Cavill, Man of Steel.
Everyone got so angry because there's so much carnage and so many people die.
Because the big thing about Superman is he tries to save
people while fighting a big bad.
And he just doesn't do that in this one.
It's just the case of the same thing going, wow, look at that.
Kirk's alive.
Isn't that amazing?
No, no collateral damage at all.
Well.
Kevin: Yeah, just to, uh, correct myself for any listeners
screaming, it was John Harrison, in
Rob: Harrison, not
Kevin: Harriman must have been some admiral that I'm thinking
of somewhere along the way.
Rob: Look, if anything, it would have been more shocking if his big
reveal at the end of being trapped in there, oh, when he said, I am Khan.
Nobody knew who Khan was in the movie.
He said, you know, I am John Harrison.
And they go, oh my god, not you?
That would have been made more sense because it would have made
sense in the reality of that.
Anyway, it's such a dumb, it's to quote Benoit Blanc in The
Glass Onion, It's just dumb.
It's just dumb.
Sorry.
Kevin: It is spectacular, and the sequence on the Enterprise before it
doesn't crash is also spectacular, like they lose artificial gravity and
is spinning in the air and, uh, people are having to run along the walls and,
and jump over, uh, great chasms in the ship that exist for some reason.
It's a of fun, uh, it's a lot of fun, but this ship, this movie is quite mindless.
And, uh, in the end, I can't let myself care about it because it is so
shocking what happens in san Francisco at the end and is not dealt with or
reckoned with in any way that, uh, I have to just kind of let the, this
movie blow over me and not matter.
Rob: Look, Chris Pine survived, alright, so just some
perspective, could you, Kevin?
Okay, how about you?
What's your, um, what's your big crash?
Kevin: I'm gonna take us to almost the opposite, in a way.
This is an episode of Star Trek Voyager Season 5, Episode 6, called Timeless.
And the entire episode is about trying to avoid a starship crash.
It opens on an icy planet and two people in snowsuits who turn out to be, uh,
older harry Kim and older Chakotay, they
Rob: That's right, yes!
Kevin: are on the surface of a glacier and the camera zooms out and you see the
Voyager is trapped underneath the ice.
Rob: I do remember that one.
Kevin: They, they developed a quantum slipstream drive to try and get home.
It, it didn't fully work and the ship crashed and Harry Kim blames
himself because he was in the Delta Flyer with Chakotay at the front,
feeding them corrections, course corrections, so that they could make
it safely through the slipstream.
He messed up and the entire crew perished.
And now he and Chakotay have come back 15 years later to find the Voyager
and to change history by, uh, getting the doctor and his mobile emitter and
getting, uh, Seven of Nine's body, which has the ability to, well, it has
the information they need to send a message through time back to Seven of
Nine at the moment of the accident to correct the coordinates that he sent.
And so the, the entire episode is flashing back and forth between this future where
they are, are grimly making their last ditch attempt as fugitives on the run
who have stolen, uh, time message sending technology and the Delta Flyer in order
to save their, their family, um, by changing history and flashing back to
the moments leading up to this crash.
And it's, they, they do some beautiful, uh, interplay between these two threads.
There's a moment where Chakotay, um, sits down on the ice filled bridge of
Voyager and replays the last captain's log, uh, that's in the console.
And it's, it's Janeway saying, I want to recommend all of my crew for,
for citations for Valor or whatever.
Rob: Except Harry Kim.
Except He's, he's not getting a citation or a promotion.
Go play clarinet.
Kevin: Then we flash back and we watch Janeway actually record that log
after we've heard it on the bridge.
Uh, so that, that delightful kind of time travel shenanigans is going on here.
There's some weird, like, they The Doctor cuts open, we don't see it.
Off screen, The Doctor slices up, uh, Seven of Nine's body and then for
several long scenes, holding a chunk of her skull in his hand as he's like
scanning it for the information they need and it's really kind of grisly.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: And there is one cut that is almost a match cut between the
chunk of her skull and we cut to Seven of Nine in the past speaking,
and it is so like, oh, disturbing.
Um, great episode.
We do, ultimately, at the risk of spoiling the episode, their plan doesn't go
right the first time, and so we get to see the crash, and in the 1990s budget
restrictions that they had, they did a marvelous job of the, the ship kind
of, you know, brushing against the top of an icy mountain before, like, going
down and hitting, in a way that feels real hard, that ice, and it's kicking
up snow everywhere, and it's skidding along the surface, and then we cut away.
We don't see the aftermath.
We don't see people thrown out of their chairs or anything like that.
All we then see is the icy remains on the bridge 15 years later, but
Rob: Cause this is all, all CGI, um,
Kevin: All CGI on a TV budget, but boy does It look good.
It holds up even though they, like, this is one of the episodes I would
love to see a, an HD remake of someday, but even in the 4x3 standard
definition quality that we're stuck with for Voyager, it still looks great.
Rob: Yeah, I do remember that episode.
I do like, you know, those what if stories of Star Trek where they
can delve into being a little bit darker and the, the, horrors of what
is potential and then there's the reset, reset at the end to go back.
Whew, well, that's what it could have been but that's not what our world is now.
We'll wait for Discovery where it's that.
Um, but yeah, it's that and you know, trying to make uh, Harry
Kim a bit more interesting.
I think he had facial hair at in this episode as well.
Kevin: Yeah, this is one of the meatier episodes for, uh,
Garrett Wang to play with.
He gets to play old, um, kind of damaged Harry Kim who blames himself and has been
through a lot of therapy that didn't work.
Rob: Uh, clearly.
Kevin: It's a good one.
It's standalone.
If you're listening to this, listener, And you're like, Oh, I watched some Voyager,
or I've never watched some Voyager.
You could watch this one all by itself.
There no connections to, uh, to canon and, uh, it's a good one.
Rob: And I love the threat of it.
It's like crashing a starship onto a planet, no matter what planet
it is, is gonna cause some damage.
It's not just as easy as putting on shields and, you know, being on a 45
jaunty angle and getting dirt on you.
That's the big thing that focuses in the Discovery episode, isn't it?
They go, oh, we've got to get out all this sand.
Oh, we've got sand.
So much sand is in the ship.
Uh,
Kevin: Yeah.
In Voyager, they make a point of saying decks decks 10 through 14 are now deck 10.
Uh, they, they were compacted on, uh.
Rob: Ha ha ha.
So yes, from what I remember, I love it when they go dark in these type
of stories so that they can really explore how these characters cope with
unimaginable horror in these situations.
Because space is, yes, it's liberating and it's freedom and it's exploration
and it's positive and hope, but also it's dangerous, it's deadly, it's
horrifying, and can cause some real horrific Yeah, talk about Dave Cronenberg,
that's some body horror right there.
Kevin: Should we talk about the big one?
Rob: Let's do it!
Let's do it, Star Trek Generations.
This is an epic crash and this is very much a case of this is the first Next
Generation movie with all our stuff.
Let's do a big crash and it's a balance of CGI and so
Kevin: It's a real model.
Yeah.
Rob: thing they pushed in the making of.
I remember they released back in the day, like teaser VHS's where you'd get
a making of, of Star Trek Generations VHS that would come with a newspaper or
you'd get it from the, news agency and you could watch, okay there's this big
sequence and they'd show the, Teaser of
Kevin: made this model for us.
We hand painted every tree.
Yeah.
Rob: Yeah, every tree and every color scheme of shading on the, on the
saucer, uh, part of, uh, the Enterprise, and it was huge, it's not like a,
a mini model, it's like a massive saucer that they flew into this, um,
uh, designed, uh, uh, wilderness.
Kevin: The overriding impression that this one leaves me with is that
it's, it's bigger than you expect.
Like so many of the, other crashes, you're like, Oh, this might be big.
And then the show kind of just rises to your expectations.
This one rises to your expectations and then keeps going.
How long it lasts.
Once they're on the ground it just becomes this rolling earthquake and we
from scene to scene, from room to room as people are like holding each other
and the whole thing is shaking and that feeling of I am in an earthquake
and at some point this is going to stop and that's going to be bad too.
That dread of the ending of it um, when you're in the middle of it
is something that none of these other ones ever quite achieve.
Rob: No.
It definitely splits it into two.
There's the, and both are equally deadly and horrifying.
It is not only the crash into the planet, but then when you're in the planet, The
momentum that's built up and how you stop.
So it's two parts of Oh my god we're gonna crash, we're gonna crash into this
planet and then it's the case of we're on the planet now and we have got this
carnage going along and there's yeah like you said they extend it out they go this
happens and this happens and this happens while they're just coming to a halt.
And it goes on for so long.
It's a perfect capture of what a crash landing of a Federation ship, only half.
It's only even half of the ship crash.
Kevin: Yeah, the stardrive section goes up in a big ball of light before this.
Rob: Definitely.
Kevin: Uh, it's one of my favorite Deanna Troi beats when she's at the
conn, and a lot has been snickeringly made in, in, in cynical fan circles
about, you know, the one time they put Deanna at the conn, she crashes the ship.
Rob: Ha, ha, ha, ha.
Kevin: But I, I just love that moment once they're on the ground and she's
still at her station, and I think it's Data, but someone is like hugging
her and she's crying, in her, at her station while she's still trying
to do her best to save this ship.
It is so touching.
In this moment of high, high spectacle.
The thing that sticks with me is an emotional beat
Rob: Yeah.
And it's really, it's the sacri I mean, it's what they do in the movies.
There's a, there's gag that goes around in the community going,
Oh, it's a Star Trek movie, better blow up the Enterprise, again.
Um, but this was a
Kevin: There have been a few.
Rob: Yes, there's been a statement of It's, it's the, the Enterprise
is like the kenny of, um, South
Kevin: It is, it's the character that you can rebuild after you kill them off.
And it's the, it's the cheapest way to give the audience that sense of loss.
Rob: Exactly.
Um, but it is that case of, it was the big moment of going, we're moving to
the movies right now, and so what you've known of Star Trek Next Generation
has changed, and so a big step is, you've known this ship, this bridge for
seven years, and we are destroying it.
There's that final moment with Riker and, um, and, and Picard on the ship to say
goodbye, on the deck to say goodbye to it, and then we come, and then in many ways, I
mean, um, for me, I don't know if you feel the same way, the Enterprises after that
in First Contact and, uh, Nemesis and, uh, Insurrection were never as iconic.
They were, they were more Batmobile, you know?
The, like, slicker and sexier, but
Kevin: like the E.
I think the E is as good as they could have possibly made it.
It is a worthy successor, but it's never quite the same.
I
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it is that monumental moment of loss.
We, you know, you do lose something, you do lose people, and, you know,
feel the importance of a crash.
Because if, if it just nobody's lost and all you need to do is clean off
sand, it takes away any type of drama, any importance, any, uh, stakes.
Mmm, stakes.
So yeah.
Kevin: Well, there you go.
Those are, those are our highlights of crashes past.
There have been others.
Um, like you said, we had Into Darkness and Star Trek Beyond made a big, you
know, show of dismantling the Enterprise and having a saucer crash of its own.
But, uh, we'll leave that as an exercise for the listener
to go and revisit that one.
Rob: And I always bring up Star Trek IV, so the, you know, the, um, the Klingon
ship crashing into, uh, San Francisco Bay.
Kevin: Mm, absolutely.
All right.
Well, it's good to be back, Rob.
I look forward to, uh, our next outing on Discovery.
I high hopes for this season, like, in a way that Discovery has my
expectations low, and this is so far quite good for Discovery, so I
think I'm gonna enjoy this season.
Rob: Yeah, look, I'm, I'm not as invested in this show or this crew as, as, as you.
Um, there are moments that I'm liking.
I'm liking Cronenberg, I've always loved Doug Jones, um, uh, there's
some, there's, there's stuff in there that I will be intrigued, but I'm very
interested to talk to you about it, because we've never done, like, everything
we've reviewed so far, I've loved!
Kevin: I know.
Just in the same way that um, this is the first Discovery, that used that stinger,
that animated opening at the start.
I, I had to check myself and realize of 50 episodes of this show that
we did, all of them came after the last episode of Discovery.
So this is our first time actually talking about Discovery here.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we, we started halfway through the first
Kevin: New Worlds.
Yeah.
Rob: Strange New Worlds, so it's, it's, and, and I've loved Strange New Worlds,
um, you, you got me onto Lower Decks, and I'm friggin loving Lower Decks,
and, and Prodigy as well was a surprise one that I'm particularly loving.
I know there's a lot of anger out there with where Star Trek's going, but, I've
found nothing but joy and positivity of it that connects to the ethos of what we
love about Star Trek at the height of the 60s and the height of the 90s, which a
lot of people see as, you know, gospel, and you can't, uh, obtain that again.
But, um, it's interesting to come to a Star Trek that I am not a fan of but
to talk about it week to week, I'm very interested to see where it goes and,
and what conversations I can have with you, and hopefully the people listening
enjoy it as much as I am doing it.
Here with you.
Kevin: Well, until next week, Rob.
Rob: See you around the galaxy!