WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.613 --> 00:00:04.633 CJ: Welcome to Build and Learn. 00:00:04.633 --> 00:00:05.543 My name is CJ. 00:00:05.985 --> 00:00:08.725 Colin: And I'm Colin, and today we're joined by Chris Traganos, 00:00:08.745 --> 00:00:12.495 who now leads the developer and app store evangelism program at Amazon. 00:00:12.645 --> 00:00:13.525 Welcome to the show, Chris. 00:00:14.425 --> 00:00:16.025 Trag: Hey, CJ, Colin, thanks for having me. 00:00:16.663 --> 00:00:17.413 CJ: Absolutely. 00:00:17.722 --> 00:00:23.566 So I think some people know Chris and I had a close relationship working as 00:00:23.566 --> 00:00:27.946 colleagues at Stripe, but now Chris is at a different company, a different place. 00:00:27.946 --> 00:00:29.426 And so let's yeah. 00:00:30.176 --> 00:00:33.846 How would you reintroduce yourself in your new role, in your new like situation? 00:00:34.646 --> 00:00:35.396 Trag: Yeah, for sure. 00:00:35.411 --> 00:00:36.554 Probably online coming through. 00:00:36.606 --> 00:00:39.693 I would say the last couple years I've probably known more as trag, 00:00:39.723 --> 00:00:40.909 like on social media and stuff. 00:00:40.961 --> 00:00:44.498 Growing up with this like confusion Greek name suddenly realizing people 00:00:44.498 --> 00:00:45.998 just call you by your slack handle. 00:00:46.208 --> 00:00:47.798 Trag has actually been so helpful. 00:00:47.978 --> 00:00:49.402 it's just like short whatever. 00:00:49.402 --> 00:00:52.353 So Yeah, it's, it's yeah, us, us immigrant names. 00:00:52.418 --> 00:00:53.348 So yeah, so I'm Chris. 00:00:53.498 --> 00:00:57.605 I lead I'm head of developer evangelism at Amazon, so that's like 00:00:57.605 --> 00:01:02.020 Amazon App Store and the different devices that folks buy from Amazon, 00:01:02.020 --> 00:01:04.646 so fire tv, fire tablets all that. 00:01:04.796 --> 00:01:08.756 And so, yeah, I got a, I got a global team of developer evangelists and 00:01:08.756 --> 00:01:10.586 trying really hard to get developers. 00:01:10.636 --> 00:01:13.678 Submitting and kind of building apps for Amazon customers. 00:01:13.763 --> 00:01:17.397 I joined recently, so I joined last last fall in the fall. 00:01:17.397 --> 00:01:19.797 So I joined in September last year in 2022. 00:01:20.517 --> 00:01:24.342 And prior to that I led developer advocacy at Stripe where CJ and I met. 00:01:24.353 --> 00:01:26.268 And so was there for about four years. 00:01:26.306 --> 00:01:27.759 Really focus on the same things, right? 00:01:27.759 --> 00:01:30.369 Like trying to show developers how. 00:01:31.374 --> 00:01:35.652 Kind of get the most out of the APIs and products we were we were launching. 00:01:35.682 --> 00:01:38.292 And so that was, that was also a blast. 00:01:38.322 --> 00:01:41.196 And prior to that, some other programs, Evernote some crazy 00:01:41.356 --> 00:01:43.906 Colin: Which is actually where you and I met was Evernote. 00:01:44.346 --> 00:01:44.916 Trag: Oh my gosh. 00:01:44.926 --> 00:01:52.356 I think we did a developer hackathon on Devpost in like 20 14, 20 13. 00:01:52.801 --> 00:01:54.781 It was like this global online hackathon. 00:01:55.151 --> 00:01:58.721 Colin: I was doing a startup where we were trying to build like the one 00:01:58.721 --> 00:02:01.331 integration, the one API to rule all APIs. 00:02:01.386 --> 00:02:05.376 And so we would just go to API hackathons and try to use our own 00:02:05.376 --> 00:02:08.856 tool to like build stuff, you know, and just show that we were really 00:02:08.861 --> 00:02:11.466 good at API integrations in general. 00:02:11.956 --> 00:02:16.049 So we built an integration with Evernote, where back in 2014, people, 00:02:16.049 --> 00:02:19.109 I don't think were really using it to store photos as much, but I used 00:02:19.109 --> 00:02:20.939 it pretty exclusively for photos. 00:02:21.359 --> 00:02:26.049 And so we analyzed every photo in your Evernote and then took all the colors out 00:02:26.489 --> 00:02:28.439 so you could search your notes by color. 00:02:28.454 --> 00:02:29.774 Trag: Yes, yes. 00:02:29.969 --> 00:02:33.509 Colin: So we got to go to the Evernote developer conference and present on 00:02:33.509 --> 00:02:35.279 stage and do all that kind of stuff. 00:02:35.309 --> 00:02:38.579 And so I think we got, I don't know if we, we didn't place actually, 00:02:38.579 --> 00:02:41.671 but but we were in like the top, you know, finalist for that. 00:02:41.676 --> 00:02:42.541 So that was really fun. 00:02:42.541 --> 00:02:44.832 And that's when, when your name popped up, I was like, wait a 00:02:44.832 --> 00:02:46.572 minute, I know Chris from somewhere 00:02:47.397 --> 00:02:50.770 Trag: Yeah, that was actually that was a great time cuz yeah, back then you know, 00:02:50.770 --> 00:02:52.870 Evernote, I joined pretty early Evernote. 00:02:52.875 --> 00:02:54.790 It's the first kind of, I think a hundred employees. 00:02:54.795 --> 00:02:55.150 We were. 00:02:55.450 --> 00:02:58.736 In this tiny former auto garage in downtown Mountain View. 00:02:58.781 --> 00:03:02.141 Hilariously, we were subleasing part of that, part of our space 00:03:02.141 --> 00:03:03.581 to the original WhatsApp team, 00:03:04.241 --> 00:03:06.401 And when we got too big, we like kicked them out of the 00:03:06.401 --> 00:03:07.841 office cuz we needed more space. 00:03:07.841 --> 00:03:11.531 And so I feel like that early Evernote stage was fun because yeah, it was a note 00:03:11.531 --> 00:03:16.452 taking app, but there was it was basically cold war technology for image recognition. 00:03:16.452 --> 00:03:19.752 And so we had handwriting recognition and we also had all these. 00:03:19.818 --> 00:03:22.728 Machine learning APIs where you could say like, show me recipes. 00:03:22.728 --> 00:03:25.668 So there was like all this stuff in the backend that we started Yeah. 00:03:25.668 --> 00:03:29.238 Seeing developers build these integrations that we like kind of 00:03:29.238 --> 00:03:32.958 treating a note as a a, as a data store, not just as a note that you could 00:03:32.958 --> 00:03:35.044 throw in mixed, mixed media and notes. 00:03:35.049 --> 00:03:37.449 I think the space too, like this, when I think about when we 00:03:37.449 --> 00:03:39.159 started, there was no Apple Notes. 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:40.359 There was no Google Docs. 00:03:40.419 --> 00:03:44.644 The thought of like real time editing, like we take for granted the, the things 00:03:44.709 --> 00:03:48.549 you can do with collaborators, both through APIs and like live in the app. 00:03:48.598 --> 00:03:52.378 And yeah, when people talk about like the, like note syncing, like syncing documents 00:03:52.378 --> 00:03:54.148 now I'm like, it is really, really hard. 00:03:54.978 --> 00:03:55.378 CJ: Hmm. 00:03:55.693 --> 00:03:55.993 Trag: Yeah. 00:03:55.993 --> 00:03:59.397 So, no, it's yeah, that was, yeah, so I guess, I guess to that point, like 00:03:59.397 --> 00:04:05.637 I've, I've been in dev, I've been doing dev rail since about 29, 20 10. 00:04:06.387 --> 00:04:08.746 And so my background's a web developer. 00:04:08.845 --> 00:04:12.134 Really more on the front end, like designs kind of part of that really 00:04:12.134 --> 00:04:16.934 old stage where flash was dying and we kind of went all into web standards, A 00:04:16.934 --> 00:04:20.834 List Apart, Jeff Zeldman, Eric Meyer, like really going that, that direct. 00:04:21.509 --> 00:04:24.869 And so I just totally fell in love with the concept of like, I 00:04:24.869 --> 00:04:28.552 can make any website look exactly like the comp, but using actual 00:04:28.552 --> 00:04:30.532 semantics and, and, and web markup. 00:04:30.537 --> 00:04:34.732 And so I did that for a while, but one of my jobs, I was working at Harvard, 00:04:34.732 --> 00:04:38.662 I was a webmaster for, that's like such an old word, for harvard.edu. 00:04:39.232 --> 00:04:43.042 And half of that challenge was getting all these separate graduate schools to 00:04:43.042 --> 00:04:45.736 submit content to like the main website. 00:04:46.696 --> 00:04:48.736 Because the news is always like from the different schools. 00:04:48.736 --> 00:04:52.006 And so that was my first taste of Dev Rel where I'd run a monthly developer 00:04:52.006 --> 00:04:55.786 meetup where you're trying to like win hearts and minds across the university 00:04:55.791 --> 00:04:59.896 of like, Hey, the business school should totally hook into like this new, this new 00:04:59.896 --> 00:05:02.746 form or api we have to submit content. 00:05:02.896 --> 00:05:04.696 And if you do that, like it's great for your org. 00:05:04.701 --> 00:05:09.376 And so I got a taste of that and actually joined Evernote just as a senior 00:05:09.376 --> 00:05:11.536 web dev like to to run evernote.com. 00:05:12.646 --> 00:05:18.206 And the way I fell backwards into Dev Rel is they, there's like a API spec, 00:05:18.226 --> 00:05:21.796 it was like a pdf and they're like, hey, could you make like a, maybe like a slash 00:05:21.801 --> 00:05:23.866 developer section on the site for that? 00:05:24.046 --> 00:05:29.866 And I just fell in love with the concept of using Evernote in a way that wasn't 00:05:29.871 --> 00:05:31.906 originally intended, like as a backend. 00:05:31.911 --> 00:05:34.427 And I don't know, like just, I just fell in love with the idea of 00:05:34.427 --> 00:05:37.602 devrel and it's been way too long. 00:05:39.402 --> 00:05:42.582 The burnout rate for Dev Rel is 18 months and, and I see folks come and 00:05:42.582 --> 00:05:44.112 go and I'm like, what is wrong with me? 00:05:44.387 --> 00:05:48.968 CJ: Yeah, it's funny, it's like it sounds like part of, part of that launching 00:05:48.968 --> 00:05:53.058 off point was events too, and I remember you in the past claiming the, the role 00:05:53.058 --> 00:05:56.988 as like hype man for the api, like API hype, man, going to events and just 00:05:56.988 --> 00:06:00.228 trying to like, get people excited about what they can build, which I 00:06:00.228 --> 00:06:04.398 think is a pretty critical part of, you know, advocacy and developer relations. 00:06:04.398 --> 00:06:07.905 But I'm, I'm curious like what you think might be the most rewarding. 00:06:08.510 --> 00:06:10.610 , is it kind of seeing devs adopt stuff? 00:06:10.610 --> 00:06:13.025 Is it seeing the success on the company side or yeah. 00:06:13.025 --> 00:06:15.684 Like what, what what about that excites you the most? 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:18.169 Trag: so it, yeah, it's, it's a good point. 00:06:18.169 --> 00:06:21.220 So I would say what drew me to dev relations. 00:06:21.220 --> 00:06:25.813 So I remember being at a hackathon, like at Tufts University like, you 00:06:25.813 --> 00:06:30.853 know, a decade or so ago, and there was, his name's Paul Lair and he 00:06:30.853 --> 00:06:32.489 worked at a company called Eco Nest. 00:06:32.494 --> 00:06:33.784 This small startup in Boston. 00:06:34.394 --> 00:06:37.849 and he just got on stage to all these, like CS students, a couple designers in 00:06:37.849 --> 00:06:42.349 the room, and he, he just like showed their, they had a music API and they broke 00:06:42.349 --> 00:06:46.279 down like every song, like they could extract the beats per minute, the chorus, 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:48.139 the bridge, there was all this stuff. 00:06:48.139 --> 00:06:50.239 And he, he did this really tight demo. 00:06:50.239 --> 00:06:53.959 It was just a couple minutes, but he took like a popular r and b 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:58.618 song and then he, he fetched a Led Zeppelin, John Bonham drum track. 00:06:59.098 --> 00:07:02.039 And it was kind of wild cause it was like, yeah, it was all tech in the back. 00:07:03.043 --> 00:07:06.343 But what he was showing you is like, what was possible, and just 00:07:06.343 --> 00:07:09.283 to watch like myself and everyone in the room, it's like, it's just 00:07:09.283 --> 00:07:10.792 like that like the sparks of joy. 00:07:10.792 --> 00:07:11.782 You're like, oh my gosh. 00:07:11.787 --> 00:07:16.732 Like that's like rethinking what you can do as, and that's just, I think I really 00:07:16.732 --> 00:07:19.664 fell in love with Dev Rel as a tool then. 00:07:20.354 --> 00:07:23.736 I would say over time, what was interesting is I know in dev relations, 00:07:23.736 --> 00:07:28.211 dev advocacy, there's this tension of, you know, are we here to We get inspired. 00:07:28.211 --> 00:07:30.731 We love to teach people how to code, how to show people new things. 00:07:30.736 --> 00:07:33.851 But we also, like, I don't know many devs who work for nonprofits. 00:07:33.851 --> 00:07:36.371 There's a couple, but most of us do work for a business. 00:07:36.371 --> 00:07:40.241 And so I think I've always tried to remind myself like, at the end of the 00:07:40.241 --> 00:07:44.951 day, we have to be like an accelerant for whatever, like our, our team and 00:07:44.951 --> 00:07:47.021 our company's top like goals are. 00:07:47.351 --> 00:07:50.967 And so it's that challenge of like, your best work is when you're just 00:07:50.967 --> 00:07:52.497 passionate and you're loving the topic. 00:07:53.862 --> 00:07:57.676 but you know, you, you gotta figure out how to get how to marry the 00:07:57.676 --> 00:08:01.698 individual advocates passions with and myself with what is the most important 00:08:01.698 --> 00:08:02.868 thing we could be doing right now. 00:08:02.868 --> 00:08:06.888 And so I think oscillating between massive companies and tiny hacky 00:08:06.888 --> 00:08:10.439 startups has helped me like kind of, I don't have the answer fully, but 00:08:10.829 --> 00:08:12.179 I guess the answer is, it depends. 00:08:12.246 --> 00:08:12.622 So yeah. 00:08:12.622 --> 00:08:15.399 Yeah, it's a good point on business versus like just focusing on. 00:08:16.609 --> 00:08:21.229 Colin: I mean, APIs have only taken off and so I think most devrels today 00:08:21.229 --> 00:08:25.999 are probably doing something around an API products cuz companies built it. 00:08:25.999 --> 00:08:27.649 Now we gotta get people to use it. 00:08:27.979 --> 00:08:30.289 We gotta create the docs, we gotta do all these things. 00:08:30.739 --> 00:08:34.459 In your role today, it sounds like you're trying to get people to build 00:08:34.459 --> 00:08:36.979 software that runs on devices, right? 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:39.859 And hardware, whether it's tablets or or fire. 00:08:40.129 --> 00:08:43.459 How has that been different for you in terms of there's not 00:08:43.459 --> 00:08:45.609 necessarily like a rest endpoint. 00:08:45.624 --> 00:08:47.004 That you're advocating for. 00:08:47.004 --> 00:08:51.834 It's more of this like there's a full software release cycle there of getting 00:08:51.834 --> 00:08:54.354 people to build full on apps There. 00:08:55.464 --> 00:08:55.704 Trag: Yeah. 00:08:55.704 --> 00:08:58.014 No, it's, it's a, it's a good, it's a good question, right? 00:08:58.014 --> 00:08:59.544 Cause you think like there. 00:09:01.339 --> 00:09:05.520 In Dev, like you can be working for you know, an API focused, comp api, first 00:09:05.520 --> 00:09:07.110 company you could be working for forever. 00:09:07.110 --> 00:09:07.380 Evernote. 00:09:07.380 --> 00:09:11.790 It was interesting, like the, the revenue value was actually the more 00:09:11.795 --> 00:09:15.150 that devs like yourself were building these interesting personal scripts 00:09:15.150 --> 00:09:19.770 and use cases, or a lot of devs were taking Evernote in, like building custom 00:09:19.775 --> 00:09:22.170 workflows for companies as a backend. 00:09:22.620 --> 00:09:27.540 That argument is like, we could see the more you connected, 00:09:27.545 --> 00:09:28.500 authorized third party. 00:09:29.340 --> 00:09:32.370 The more likely you were gonna stay paying for Evernote Premium. 00:09:32.430 --> 00:09:36.900 And you, you, you just, the stickiness factor was essential, right? 00:09:36.900 --> 00:09:40.280 Like, if it is like notion or any of these type of Google for work a great 00:09:40.297 --> 00:09:44.006 corollary where I have everything connected into my, into Google. 00:09:44.006 --> 00:09:47.216 Work flows, Google forms Google scr like Google Scripts automating 00:09:47.216 --> 00:09:48.176 things on different ends. 00:09:48.176 --> 00:09:50.546 And so the more it's just indispensable. 00:09:51.026 --> 00:09:52.436 It's just, it's a no-brainer to pay. 00:09:53.666 --> 00:09:57.896 And I think shifting to Stripe, it was interesting, like Stripe went 10 years 00:09:57.988 --> 00:10:01.118 nine, 10 years without really much devrel. 00:10:01.138 --> 00:10:04.751 Like there was Derell where they were kind of like voice of the developer really in 00:10:04.751 --> 00:10:06.534 sync with the product team, dog fooding. 00:10:06.544 --> 00:10:09.964 Maybe like an annual conference, but a lot of stripe, like the tools made 00:10:09.964 --> 00:10:14.044 sense, the dogs were clear, and devs were like, just give me what I want. 00:10:14.584 --> 00:10:17.044 As stripes started building like a. 00:10:18.664 --> 00:10:22.984 A network of apps on top of their platform, the storytelling got harder. 00:10:22.984 --> 00:10:25.684 And so I think it depends on the stage of the company. 00:10:25.805 --> 00:10:28.985 Like devrel is just gonna be different when you are a tiny 00:10:28.990 --> 00:10:31.955 startup trying to win big customers. 00:10:31.955 --> 00:10:36.295 And it's also gonna be different like at an Amazon where, I mean, just imagine all 00:10:36.335 --> 00:10:37.745 the customers we have around the world. 00:10:37.745 --> 00:10:40.884 They are buying multiple Amazon products, Amazon devices, and. 00:10:41.739 --> 00:10:45.279 The, the thing we center on is like, how do we make sure our customers 00:10:45.284 --> 00:10:49.368 have like absolutely everything at like in their hands, like being able 00:10:49.368 --> 00:10:52.708 to access their content and so the developer, it's, it's broad, right? 00:10:52.708 --> 00:10:56.361 It's everything from massive companies that you use and entertainment all 00:10:56.361 --> 00:10:58.491 the way to like productivity apps. 00:10:58.491 --> 00:11:02.391 That, there's a lot of apps that, like Fire OS is based on 00:11:02.391 --> 00:11:04.237 the Android open source project. 00:11:04.567 --> 00:11:09.457 And so, A lot of those apps you see are gonna have a very similar experience 00:11:09.457 --> 00:11:10.949 to something on like Google Play. 00:11:10.957 --> 00:11:15.577 With the difference of monetization, like probably all of us have 00:11:15.700 --> 00:11:17.470 Amazon account payment on file. 00:11:17.470 --> 00:11:21.820 So you can imagine the opportunity for something for Amazon devices and the 00:11:21.820 --> 00:11:27.794 app store is if you invest in bringing your app over into essentially a third 00:11:27.794 --> 00:11:31.980 party marketplace, you're getting in front of Amazon customers who are very. 00:11:32.880 --> 00:11:35.547 For their favorite apps to also be on these devices. 00:11:35.547 --> 00:11:36.957 And so yeah, it's fun. 00:11:36.957 --> 00:11:38.067 It's like, it's, it's, it's a mix. 00:11:38.067 --> 00:11:41.438 Cuz there are, the APIs are more like sign in, like authentication, like you're 00:11:41.438 --> 00:11:43.178 signing in with your Amazon account. 00:11:43.208 --> 00:11:45.369 There's payments, like, so your payments on file. 00:11:45.374 --> 00:11:48.139 Think like, if you have like prime video, you're, you're 00:11:48.139 --> 00:11:49.635 ordering, you're buying in-app. 00:11:49.755 --> 00:11:51.195 In-app subscription's probably the big one. 00:11:51.206 --> 00:11:54.876 But also, yeah, like knowing did my package come and so for me it's like, 00:11:54.881 --> 00:11:56.406 it's a meaty, it's a meaty challenge. 00:11:56.406 --> 00:11:57.526 It's, I like it. 00:11:58.431 --> 00:11:59.987 I at Stripe, definitely. 00:11:59.987 --> 00:12:03.827 One upside is just the idea that it was API first. 00:12:03.896 --> 00:12:05.606 You almost were given too much. 00:12:05.656 --> 00:12:08.516 You, you were almost given so much information, like you as a developers, 00:12:08.516 --> 00:12:12.506 like trying to figure out, okay, how do I stitch this up to get what I need done? 00:12:12.599 --> 00:12:16.289 And then switching to something, which is like, at the end of the day, really 00:12:16.289 --> 00:12:20.091 what matters is that customers have a ton of awesome apps in their hands. 00:12:20.096 --> 00:12:20.661 They can use. 00:12:21.556 --> 00:12:24.336 and so trying to make sure devs feel like that they're very 00:12:24.336 --> 00:12:25.776 successful, they have what they need. 00:12:25.867 --> 00:12:29.767 CJ: How does the strategy change, like in terms of engagement with devs? 00:12:29.772 --> 00:12:30.307 Like I. 00:12:31.277 --> 00:12:32.347 . I just know the perspective of Stripe. 00:12:32.347 --> 00:12:35.737 Like this is the only place I've done advocacy and a lot of, I would say our 00:12:35.737 --> 00:12:38.507 team leans pretty heavily on content. 00:12:38.507 --> 00:12:40.205 We do engage with the community. 00:12:40.205 --> 00:12:43.535 We have like a strong product feedback cycle and we're very 00:12:43.540 --> 00:12:47.255 involved in the product, but leaning on content heavily to help increase 00:12:47.255 --> 00:12:49.865 awareness and adoption of the APIs. 00:12:49.985 --> 00:12:52.565 It has been pretty successful for us. 00:12:52.565 --> 00:12:55.835 Like how does that strategy change if you are standing up a new. 00:12:56.945 --> 00:12:59.465 that is like advocating for an app store versus standing up. 00:12:59.465 --> 00:13:04.835 Maybe if you're like, you know, advocate number one at a tiny startup, 00:13:05.135 --> 00:13:06.995 that that is like an API product. 00:13:06.995 --> 00:13:07.565 Like what? 00:13:07.595 --> 00:13:07.835 Yeah. 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:09.095 What are your kind of thoughts there? 00:13:10.115 --> 00:13:10.475 Trag: Yeah. 00:13:10.475 --> 00:13:10.685 Right. 00:13:10.685 --> 00:13:11.225 That, that's it. 00:13:11.225 --> 00:13:11.975 It's, it is a good flag. 00:13:11.975 --> 00:13:17.397 Like when I did dev, like at m io, we're trying to like pitch a 00:13:17.397 --> 00:13:20.607 use case that wasn't in the market yet, like cross platform chat. 00:13:21.177 --> 00:13:24.147 Really trying to, like half of it was advocating to Slack and 00:13:24.147 --> 00:13:26.367 Microsoft Teams and Cisco WebEx. 00:13:26.367 --> 00:13:29.637 Like, Hey, like this isn't a zero sum game. 00:13:29.637 --> 00:13:32.127 The more there's interoperability, the better. 00:13:32.132 --> 00:13:34.707 And we also happen to have pretty good gateways to sync it all. 00:13:34.712 --> 00:13:39.057 And so that was more like trying so hard to get to get noticed, like 00:13:39.057 --> 00:13:43.543 trying to really build Like developer fascinating tool, you know, tools 00:13:43.543 --> 00:13:46.003 that devs are like, oh my gosh, this is saving me so much time. 00:13:46.273 --> 00:13:50.143 I think at Amazon, like Amazon customers, like I have confidence. 00:13:50.143 --> 00:13:51.763 There are so many customers across the world. 00:13:51.763 --> 00:13:57.435 They love and purchase tons of content apps devices, all that. 00:13:57.565 --> 00:14:04.090 I think for us, one thing that I didn't expect to be such a benefit, Amazon 00:14:04.090 --> 00:14:05.911 apps apps in the Amazon App store. 00:14:05.911 --> 00:14:10.196 So think like your fire tv, fire tablet any of those echo shows that have screen 00:14:10.566 --> 00:14:11.630 anything kind of like with a screen. 00:14:11.630 --> 00:14:13.965 Those apps can be built with so Android. 00:14:13.970 --> 00:14:16.718 So Android apps most likely will you know, they'll work on 00:14:16.723 --> 00:14:18.386 F os react native developers. 00:14:18.386 --> 00:14:22.304 Like if you are building anything where you can end up having an apk and end up 00:14:22.304 --> 00:14:25.874 built, if you've already built an app, like it's the se, you gotta segment. 00:14:26.839 --> 00:14:29.954 , it's perfect if you already have a pretty solid app on other platforms. 00:14:30.028 --> 00:14:33.478 You know, app stores are becoming unbundled and, and we have the upside 00:14:33.478 --> 00:14:36.058 of, we've been doing this for, we've been all in on the Android open 00:14:36.058 --> 00:14:37.768 source project for over a decade. 00:14:38.038 --> 00:14:41.668 And so for us it's great because the use case is probably like, 00:14:41.998 --> 00:14:42.958 we've got tons of customers. 00:14:42.963 --> 00:14:44.338 We're on multiple platforms. 00:14:44.338 --> 00:14:48.048 We'd love to get in front of a very passionate customer base that 00:14:48.048 --> 00:14:49.488 is always looking for new apps. 00:14:49.488 --> 00:14:50.508 And so for that, it's. 00:14:51.618 --> 00:14:54.648 Like, we're going to Droid Con, we're going to react native conferences. 00:14:54.648 --> 00:14:59.028 We're writing a lot of new content on okay, how to take your React native 00:14:59.033 --> 00:15:03.036 app and integrate our our, our SDK for, for in-app purchase, et cetera. 00:15:03.041 --> 00:15:06.126 So for us it's like, I'm so used to for, you know, for Stripe, it's 00:15:06.126 --> 00:15:09.966 like you got your Ruby crew, you got some like native device developers. 00:15:09.971 --> 00:15:13.956 But the end of the day, like it's, it's payment architects and maybe 00:15:13.956 --> 00:15:17.443 like dev agencies that are really thinking deeply about payment. 00:15:18.568 --> 00:15:20.818 Evernote, it was more like SaaS companies trying to think like 00:15:20.818 --> 00:15:22.517 maybe we also add an integration. 00:15:22.532 --> 00:15:26.162 That message IO is mostly like interoperability chat, so IT departments. 00:15:26.162 --> 00:15:29.192 And so I think for me it's been interesting of like it's much 00:15:29.192 --> 00:15:31.322 broader, applicable audience. 00:15:31.369 --> 00:15:34.819 And the show don't tell things important. 00:15:34.819 --> 00:15:39.049 Like it's really helping devs understand the opportunity and then showing 00:15:39.054 --> 00:15:40.609 them like examples of how they can. 00:15:41.404 --> 00:15:44.524 Through, through code samples and a ton of talks, we're submitting a lot of 00:15:44.524 --> 00:15:49.661 talks like walking through Flutter, react native Android, Kotlin related use cases. 00:15:49.666 --> 00:15:53.031 And so yeah, the polyglot aspect of this place is wild. 00:15:53.031 --> 00:15:53.455 But I love it. 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:56.302 It's like me and my team we're having a lot of fun right now. 00:15:56.772 --> 00:16:01.602 Like I haven't been a Microsoft Windows user for years, obviously vs. 00:16:01.602 --> 00:16:01.992 Code. 00:16:01.992 --> 00:16:04.362 And some of those, you know, GitHub, I've, they've been 00:16:04.362 --> 00:16:05.622 bringing me back into their orbit. 00:16:05.622 --> 00:16:07.062 But right now, like I. 00:16:07.797 --> 00:16:11.427 Install so you can, you know, on Windows 11 in the Microsoft store, you can 00:16:11.427 --> 00:16:12.897 install actually the Amazon app store. 00:16:12.967 --> 00:16:18.827 But any popular Android apps, you can install it and, and it's running like 00:16:18.827 --> 00:16:20.348 it's really performant in the battery. 00:16:20.348 --> 00:16:23.168 Like, it's kind of like you're using Android apps, like your favorite 00:16:23.168 --> 00:16:26.858 productivity to do apps, but that were built for phones, but, or tablets. 00:16:26.858 --> 00:16:30.038 But you're using it on like a two gigahertz or more device. 00:16:30.248 --> 00:16:31.388 And so that's been interesting. 00:16:31.388 --> 00:16:32.038 It's like I. 00:16:33.128 --> 00:16:35.416 the linnux sub the lin windows subsystem for Linux. 00:16:35.416 --> 00:16:38.206 I have like a buntu running when I'm testing some new betas. 00:16:38.206 --> 00:16:41.773 We have and I also have a ton of Android apps, and they feel just like apps. 00:16:41.773 --> 00:16:45.793 It's, it's almost like a VMware or something, but it, it is more native than 00:16:45.883 --> 00:16:47.623 you would think in like a virtual machine. 00:16:47.623 --> 00:16:52.603 And so that's been wild to me because you're starting to get past, like these 00:16:52.603 --> 00:16:56.383 apps live on this platform, these apps live on that platform, like, yeah. 00:16:56.548 --> 00:16:56.818 Colin: code 00:16:57.313 --> 00:17:04.153 Trag: Yeah, it's just code and these processors kind of all have Yeah. 00:17:04.153 --> 00:17:06.853 Like the, the kind of lineage is coming back together of like, at the end of 00:17:06.853 --> 00:17:11.503 the day it is just processing either on an arm trip arm or apple chip or Intel. 00:17:11.503 --> 00:17:15.212 And so yeah, it's it's a fun time right now to like watch 00:17:15.212 --> 00:17:15.962 how these things play out. 00:17:15.962 --> 00:17:16.352 For sure. 00:17:18.062 --> 00:17:18.377 CJ: Very cool. 00:17:18.707 --> 00:17:20.537 Is this is your new team? 00:17:20.543 --> 00:17:24.397 How is it organized and also like are you under marketing? 00:17:24.402 --> 00:17:25.507 Are you under engineering? 00:17:25.507 --> 00:17:30.324 And Yeah, like I think there's a lot of benefits and trade-offs depending 00:17:30.324 --> 00:17:32.334 on like where a dev team lands. 00:17:32.724 --> 00:17:37.554 And so, yeah, I, I'm curious where your current setup is, and then maybe 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.344 if you could speak to some of the trade-offs of like where you put dev 00:17:40.584 --> 00:17:42.384 and like how that impacts things. 00:17:42.389 --> 00:17:46.104 And it, and some companies, like you report directly to the ceo, whereas 00:17:46.104 --> 00:17:49.374 like other places you might be buried under some sales or marketing. 00:17:50.424 --> 00:17:50.664 Trag: Yeah. 00:17:50.664 --> 00:17:54.000 It, it is, it's a, it's such a like hot and button topic because 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:57.540 I mean, folks have their, you know, they're, I would say two things. 00:17:57.540 --> 00:18:01.440 People have their opinions on what dev dev advocates are like for whatever good 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:05.550 or bad experience they've had with a dev advocate like , that is pretty much 00:18:05.550 --> 00:18:09.330 set in stone unless they're convinced otherwise in a different experience later. 00:18:09.540 --> 00:18:10.410 And I also think dev. 00:18:11.310 --> 00:18:16.583 In marketing versus, so I've, I've, I've built dev teams under the CTO 00:18:16.583 --> 00:18:18.114 o yeah, directly under the ceo. 00:18:18.188 --> 00:18:21.458 I've been directly under partnerships and business development. 00:18:21.504 --> 00:18:24.988 I've been under marketing and at Stripe, obviously it was directly under 00:18:24.988 --> 00:18:30.598 engineering, and so it's kind of wild, like your tactics and your focus shifts. 00:18:32.398 --> 00:18:35.578 but I do think you're still really fighting on behalf of 00:18:35.578 --> 00:18:38.518 the developer experience and you're acting as developer zero. 00:18:38.518 --> 00:18:40.408 So yeah, Amazon, it's interesting. 00:18:40.408 --> 00:18:41.878 It's, it's it's whole business units, right? 00:18:41.878 --> 00:18:45.238 So under Amazon devices, like the one benefit, it's different 00:18:45.238 --> 00:18:46.678 than I've done Dev anywhere else. 00:18:46.683 --> 00:18:51.337 Whereas, you know, my colleagues are, I got folks in business 00:18:51.342 --> 00:18:53.537 development, like they're working with the top partners, right? 00:18:53.837 --> 00:18:59.237 I am working directly with all the tpms and lead engineers, like on the s E K. 00:19:00.422 --> 00:19:06.017 . And so I, I dunno, I guess in the big company I just assumed more silos, but I'm 00:19:06.017 --> 00:19:09.677 working hand in hand with folks because we kind of all roll up into the business 00:19:09.677 --> 00:19:12.171 unit, which is like apps and partnerships. 00:19:12.231 --> 00:19:15.797 And so you don't have that like centralized model where one 00:19:15.802 --> 00:19:17.762 part of the company is this one part of the company does that. 00:19:17.987 --> 00:19:20.627 It's like, you know, we're delivering a unit and that includes 00:19:20.627 --> 00:19:24.836 everything from the hardware to the software to the backend infra and. 00:19:25.841 --> 00:19:27.431 That's been surprisingly awesome. 00:19:27.431 --> 00:19:30.216 So and some of the folks I'm working directly with, my manager, like 00:19:30.456 --> 00:19:33.426 they all have backgrounds in like, you know, the Xbox gaming unit. 00:19:33.696 --> 00:19:36.967 I got some folks who've worked at like sports gaming, big partner 00:19:36.967 --> 00:19:38.725 apps like some media brands. 00:19:38.730 --> 00:19:41.665 And so this is kind of wild cuz obviously in you're like usually 00:19:41.665 --> 00:19:46.375 an API team or your, it's a v like coming from SaaS and going into this. 00:19:46.435 --> 00:19:47.185 It's been interesting. 00:19:47.273 --> 00:19:49.553 Yeah, Roku, it was, we were Dev rel. 00:19:51.548 --> 00:19:54.488 Worked hand in hand every day with the SDK team in engineering, but we 00:19:54.488 --> 00:19:58.298 were under partnerships and so it was kind of like we had the solutions 00:19:58.303 --> 00:20:00.428 architects that would help us sometimes. 00:20:00.428 --> 00:20:04.868 But pretty much we were really working on like go to market, like launches for new 00:20:04.868 --> 00:20:06.818 features, building a ton of sample code. 00:20:06.888 --> 00:20:08.868 At Evernote it just oscillated like Evernote. 00:20:08.868 --> 00:20:12.528 In the beginning it was just like a pet project of the ceo and it was 00:20:12.528 --> 00:20:16.528 under, I think we reported up into had a platform, the API team in. 00:20:17.778 --> 00:20:21.163 . And then after a couple years we moved to partnerships where it shifted to, 00:20:21.163 --> 00:20:28.423 like, it went from really focusing on change logs, updates like API reliance 00:20:28.428 --> 00:20:32.383 to what are the most important things we can do, content and code samples 00:20:32.383 --> 00:20:34.633 wise that would move the needle. 00:20:34.633 --> 00:20:38.743 And so that was more opportunistic, like how could we get apps that 00:20:39.193 --> 00:20:40.723 consumers love to integrate with us? 00:20:42.228 --> 00:20:44.158 and then, yeah, so it totally depends. 00:20:44.158 --> 00:20:48.778 Like, and I think what I've noticed is some, some dev advocates will be 00:20:48.778 --> 00:20:50.488 vitriolic about being under marketing. 00:20:50.488 --> 00:20:51.958 Like, and I get it, like I get it too. 00:20:51.958 --> 00:20:54.697 Like if you've gone to if you have a CS degree or if you've worked 00:20:54.697 --> 00:20:58.071 your butt off to like learn, learn your learn code yourself. 00:20:58.281 --> 00:20:59.211 I totally get this thing. 00:20:59.216 --> 00:21:02.451 I'm like, oh, like a lot of the hangups in our industry is like 00:21:02.451 --> 00:21:06.921 people's fear of self-identity, like that burning insecurity. 00:21:06.921 --> 00:21:09.231 I think that fuels a lot of that Dev advocates. 00:21:10.086 --> 00:21:13.221 . What if people know that I'm not legit or whatever things we tell ourselves. 00:21:13.221 --> 00:21:17.031 And what I've noticed is what's helped me at least, is like I'm 00:21:17.031 --> 00:21:19.161 very comfortable with ambiguity. 00:21:19.221 --> 00:21:23.931 Like I know, like I don't necessarily know like, am I in eng? 00:21:23.961 --> 00:21:25.011 Am I in bd? 00:21:25.011 --> 00:21:25.431 Am I? 00:21:25.431 --> 00:21:28.581 But I do know like what we have to get done like for the 00:21:28.581 --> 00:21:29.691 next six months to a year. 00:21:29.691 --> 00:21:33.531 And that's worked great for me is because a lot of the arguments will be like 00:21:33.586 --> 00:21:35.266 like red flags for me is when someone. 00:21:36.196 --> 00:21:39.166 We need to know really clear lanes, kind of like we need to know 00:21:39.166 --> 00:21:41.056 exactly what you can and can't do. 00:21:41.154 --> 00:21:43.664 Or if, if someone in Dev Advocacy's doing it, you're like, Hmm. 00:21:43.884 --> 00:21:47.874 If you're doing that, then suddenly like the best dev advocates I know 00:21:47.874 --> 00:21:52.824 oscillate between content work, community efforts, and product. 00:21:53.334 --> 00:21:56.514 And if you just say, oh, we're only top of funnel, or, oh, we're. 00:21:57.504 --> 00:22:00.504 A really technical cause We gotta prove to people we're, you know, 00:22:00.504 --> 00:22:02.270 we are not your average advocate. 00:22:02.270 --> 00:22:06.170 Suddenly, like your hangups are messing up, like the community just 00:22:06.170 --> 00:22:09.680 needs what they need and you're kind of making it about yourself. 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.885 And so, yeah, it's a, it's a quirky, quirky industry with a, with a 00:22:13.885 --> 00:22:15.325 boatload of characters for sure. 00:22:15.325 --> 00:22:16.345 Myself included, 00:22:18.062 --> 00:22:22.812 CJ: In terms of keeping those advocates motivated and advocating for advocates 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:25.539 it sounds like that's like a big component to it, is understanding what 00:22:25.539 --> 00:22:29.739 they want, how they wanna operate, and, you know, moving from doing, just 00:22:29.739 --> 00:22:32.979 working on change logs, that kind of sounded almost like busy work, right? 00:22:32.979 --> 00:22:36.879 Like, oh, we're just gonna keep focusing on change logs and making, you know, 00:22:36.879 --> 00:22:39.789 little fixes to the docs over, like, switching that to like, oh, let's 00:22:39.789 --> 00:22:43.839 do a bunch of video content or live streams or speaking at conferences. 00:22:43.852 --> 00:22:45.592 It, it definitely seems like. 00:22:45.673 --> 00:22:49.123 Keeping the folks motivated by giving them projects they're passionate 00:22:49.123 --> 00:22:55.153 about is pretty like a pretty proven track record of, or like, you know, 00:22:55.153 --> 00:22:57.343 approach to having a successful team. 00:22:57.348 --> 00:23:00.553 But is there, is there more to it than that kind of just giving 00:23:00.553 --> 00:23:02.013 people projects they wanna work on? 00:23:02.993 --> 00:23:03.563 Trag: Yeah, I think. 00:23:04.433 --> 00:23:07.867 Yeah, managing dev advocates or dev, like sdk engineers, like 00:23:07.867 --> 00:23:09.077 however your team's formed. 00:23:09.133 --> 00:23:11.503 I get so much joy from it, but it is, I'm not gonna lie, it's 00:23:11.593 --> 00:23:14.383 definitely one of the hardest parts of my career for a couple reasons. 00:23:14.383 --> 00:23:18.073 One is like, you have expectations from leadership on like what your team's gonna 00:23:18.073 --> 00:23:22.933 deliver, and leadership has a thought on your team, should be focused on adoption, 00:23:22.933 --> 00:23:26.973 or your team should really be focused on awareness and adoption, and others 00:23:26.978 --> 00:23:28.413 are like, you are the community team. 00:23:28.413 --> 00:23:29.073 What I've found. 00:23:31.023 --> 00:23:35.485 Keeping high performing dev advocates in like convincing them to join 00:23:35.485 --> 00:23:38.185 your team, like courting them from other big companies is hard, right? 00:23:38.185 --> 00:23:42.085 Like, there's one which is pay is super variable based on region. 00:23:42.085 --> 00:23:45.415 It's, it's getting better, but like based on region and based on the company. 00:23:45.415 --> 00:23:48.535 So like that's one thing is a fear of like, oh my gosh, like what if I go to 00:23:48.535 --> 00:23:52.105 my next Dev l job and I'm like losing my engineering street credit and I 00:23:52.105 --> 00:23:53.635 can't get a software engineering job. 00:23:53.747 --> 00:23:56.019 . I think a lot of it people are probably gonna roll their eyes, but 00:23:56.019 --> 00:24:00.264 the mentality I use as so Stripe was an engineering manager for about 00:24:00.269 --> 00:24:02.514 10 to 12 advocates kind of global. 00:24:02.514 --> 00:24:05.844 They were all over, and the attitude I took when it took to managing 00:24:05.849 --> 00:24:08.703 them was Kind of like a lot of the articles I've read about what it's 00:24:08.703 --> 00:24:10.633 like to manage Peloton instructors. 00:24:11.103 --> 00:24:15.033 And so when I think of it as like advocates, they just, by nature, you 00:24:15.033 --> 00:24:19.298 have to accept managing them is gonna be different than managing an api, heads 00:24:19.298 --> 00:24:22.958 down engineering team because they're putting themselves out there every day. 00:24:23.018 --> 00:24:27.078 They're giving talks, they're dog fooding, giving the product team a lot of feedback. 00:24:28.218 --> 00:24:32.643 It is exhausting to like be out there, especially when everyone has 00:24:32.643 --> 00:24:35.373 comments and thoughts and opinions on what you are and aren't doing. 00:24:35.673 --> 00:24:38.433 And the way I think of it is, like I do, the phrase that sticks in my head 00:24:38.438 --> 00:24:41.163 is like, they're our on-screen talent. 00:24:41.163 --> 00:24:43.743 Like they are putting some out there. 00:24:43.743 --> 00:24:47.960 There's an aspect of them of like, they are a narrative on top of our product how 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:51.470 they carry themselves in social media, the things they're passionate about, 00:24:51.470 --> 00:24:52.880 the things I wish like we can pretend. 00:24:53.775 --> 00:24:56.261 , there's, there's boundaries between you you know, your work 00:24:56.261 --> 00:24:57.252 life and your personal life. 00:24:57.257 --> 00:25:01.695 But as an advocate, unfortunately, you do have folks making up their mind 00:25:01.700 --> 00:25:05.415 about what you are, what you focus on, and really like what your out, you 00:25:05.415 --> 00:25:08.775 know, what your actual output and the things that you devote your time to. 00:25:09.075 --> 00:25:13.515 And so I think what I try to do is, Yeah, I spend a lot of time, like when I'm 00:25:13.515 --> 00:25:17.295 hiring someone onto a team, I already kind of want to know like what motivates them? 00:25:17.295 --> 00:25:18.525 Is it building in public? 00:25:18.855 --> 00:25:23.835 Is it convincing themselves that they are still a competent engineer because their 00:25:23.835 --> 00:25:25.665 last company gave them a lot of hangups? 00:25:25.875 --> 00:25:28.793 Is it they got great stage presence, but they really want to take themselves 00:25:28.823 --> 00:25:33.714 to the next level in their mastery of building like app architecture. 00:25:33.714 --> 00:25:34.404 And so I think. 00:25:35.644 --> 00:25:36.669 I am very fluid. 00:25:36.669 --> 00:25:41.409 Where I am fine for an advocate to spike in community or to really 00:25:41.409 --> 00:25:44.833 go deep in product and almost be seen as like one of the leads for 00:25:44.838 --> 00:25:46.303 like some engineering project. 00:25:46.813 --> 00:25:52.333 I think what I try to do is motivate them in a way that it's just like 00:25:52.333 --> 00:25:54.313 intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. 00:25:54.313 --> 00:25:54.973 It's so hard. 00:25:54.973 --> 00:25:57.943 Like if I just go to an advocate and tell them, you are to do 00:25:57.943 --> 00:25:59.833 this by this day, top down style. 00:26:01.703 --> 00:26:02.154 I don't know. 00:26:02.159 --> 00:26:05.743 I just, I personally, you don't get my best work if it is just 00:26:05.743 --> 00:26:09.313 like, this is the task, this is your job, QA it, or whatever. 00:26:09.363 --> 00:26:16.033 I think with advocates you gotta try to marriage like for some time 00:26:16.443 --> 00:26:18.873 your personal goals, company goals, my goals are gonna be aligned. 00:26:19.278 --> 00:26:20.178 I'm gonna help you. 00:26:20.178 --> 00:26:23.148 I'm gonna fight like hell to be an advocate for the advocates. 00:26:23.388 --> 00:26:27.978 I want you to get a bigger following if that matters to you, I want you to be 00:26:27.983 --> 00:26:32.148 able to go launch your own startup, be a dev instructor, whatever you want to do. 00:26:33.648 --> 00:26:38.058 And I also kind of want you to like really help us get to the 00:26:38.058 --> 00:26:39.498 next level with what we gotta hit. 00:26:39.798 --> 00:26:42.708 And so for me, if it does, like I really wanna do a video guide, 00:26:43.038 --> 00:26:46.368 a video series on this, and I think this is how we can measure. 00:26:47.108 --> 00:26:48.408 and this is gonna help me work with product. 00:26:48.498 --> 00:26:49.428 I'm like, that's great. 00:26:49.968 --> 00:26:52.688 Whereas another dev might go I think we're really going to need to 00:26:52.688 --> 00:26:54.548 go deeper in our samples offering. 00:26:54.548 --> 00:26:58.778 And so what I try to do is like on a quarterly basis, like dream big, which 00:26:58.778 --> 00:27:02.348 each advocate like really trying to think of like the things that back 00:27:02.353 --> 00:27:04.298 in their head and back in their mind. 00:27:04.508 --> 00:27:08.913 And I'm also kind of bringing up nudges and things that would be helpful. 00:27:08.913 --> 00:27:13.533 And usually what we end up find, like landing on, on a monthly cadence is. 00:27:14.628 --> 00:27:17.662 kind of the areas they areas for growth and like ways they 00:27:17.667 --> 00:27:18.878 can put points on the board. 00:27:18.878 --> 00:27:20.018 I know it's a sports analogy. 00:27:20.048 --> 00:27:21.458 Sorry, that was a lot of talking 00:27:21.558 --> 00:27:25.038 But yeah, I think a lot about, like, it totally depends per advocate, 00:27:25.428 --> 00:27:29.118 but the collective of the team, you tend to have, everyone does spike in 00:27:29.123 --> 00:27:32.898 different areas, which if you average it out, that's how you end up with 00:27:32.949 --> 00:27:35.079 a world class dev advocate team. 00:27:35.084 --> 00:27:36.489 Even if it's just like yourself. 00:27:36.669 --> 00:27:39.309 Right now, it's just like me and a co, you know, we're a very small. 00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:44.769 but I also know show don't tell aspect is how you grow a team 00:27:44.810 --> 00:27:46.238 to the size it, it should be. 00:27:48.633 --> 00:27:49.563 Colin: Yeah, that's really interesting cuz. 00:27:50.498 --> 00:27:53.858 Kind of touched on this idea that dev advocacy can be so many different 00:27:53.858 --> 00:27:56.468 things, even in one team, right? 00:27:56.468 --> 00:28:00.398 You have SDKs, which might be more, someone's rolling up their 00:28:00.398 --> 00:28:02.618 sleeves and figuring out how do we generate these better? 00:28:02.948 --> 00:28:06.218 How do we make sure like, oh, our PHP one's not as good as our ruby one. 00:28:06.218 --> 00:28:07.118 We're getting feedback. 00:28:07.478 --> 00:28:10.748 You're working with product to return that feedback to the 00:28:10.748 --> 00:28:11.948 team that's building those STKs. 00:28:11.948 --> 00:28:14.468 You're helping people with contents. 00:28:14.468 --> 00:28:15.338 You're doing all these things. 00:28:15.338 --> 00:28:18.518 I think we kind of touched on this in our episode with Lindsay Barrett. 00:28:19.218 --> 00:28:22.218 about technical support and technical support managers, and 00:28:22.218 --> 00:28:26.448 there's this, you kind of touched on this as well, of worrying about 00:28:26.448 --> 00:28:27.858 losing their engineering chops. 00:28:27.858 --> 00:28:32.328 Or maybe even I'll, I'll just say dev advocacy almost seeing as like less 00:28:32.333 --> 00:28:36.198 than being an engineer when really it, you know, I think there's a. 00:28:36.788 --> 00:28:39.728 Perception of that, when really the job is just so different. 00:28:39.818 --> 00:28:43.688 It's just a different job with different skills, and you need to be 00:28:43.688 --> 00:28:45.188 able to do some of that engineering. 00:28:45.638 --> 00:28:50.228 Would you recommend dev advocacy as as a path for someone getting into 00:28:50.228 --> 00:28:54.008 programming, or do you recommend that they, you know, kind of go down the stint 00:28:54.038 --> 00:28:59.609 of be an engineer somewhere for a little bit and then head over into advocacy if 00:28:59.614 --> 00:29:02.738 that's something that they're interested in, or, or does it work either way? 00:29:03.878 --> 00:29:06.608 Trag: I would say that question is no, no doubt. 00:29:06.608 --> 00:29:10.838 The most polarizing conversation like question that comes up in 00:29:11.168 --> 00:29:12.818 like folks who lead Deval teams. 00:29:12.864 --> 00:29:14.743 I think we're, oh, I'm, I'll just be honest with you. 00:29:14.743 --> 00:29:19.468 I'm really torn on it because on one side I have met tens of thousands of 00:29:19.468 --> 00:29:23.278 amazing developers that came to, like, I met you a decade ago at a hackathon, 00:29:23.518 --> 00:29:26.578 and now you're like the lead at an amazing developer first company. 00:29:26.878 --> 00:29:28.768 Like all of us start somewhere. 00:29:29.878 --> 00:29:34.378 Myself, I started as a web developer, got invited, was asked by my company, can 00:29:34.378 --> 00:29:36.868 you fly to Brazil and run a dev event? 00:29:36.868 --> 00:29:38.098 And suddenly I fell in love. 00:29:38.158 --> 00:29:41.992 Like I, my eyes were open to I absolutely love dev and dev advocacy. 00:29:41.997 --> 00:29:46.992 Where I'm torn is, I think a lot of companies go, okay, start off 00:29:46.992 --> 00:29:48.773 in dev do a bootcamp, do whatever. 00:29:48.833 --> 00:29:51.683 Learn how to code build in public. 00:29:51.683 --> 00:29:55.084 And then eventually, like a lot of people think, , it's kind of 00:29:55.089 --> 00:29:57.173 a way to get into development. 00:29:57.393 --> 00:30:04.043 I think what's tricky is it's double hard for these folks where they're trying to 00:30:04.043 --> 00:30:09.623 like learn how to code, but they haven't had a lot of lessons learned of like 00:30:09.653 --> 00:30:15.203 working side by side with engineers with a p i, architects with different folks. 00:30:15.203 --> 00:30:18.533 And so I, I guess where I'm torn is like, honestly the crux 00:30:18.533 --> 00:30:19.883 of Derell, the tension I feel. 00:30:21.503 --> 00:30:24.503 You know that, going back to the nonprofit question, are we, here is 00:30:24.503 --> 00:30:30.083 our purpose to teach people how to code, how to get into the industry? 00:30:30.203 --> 00:30:34.507 Sharing our personal stories, like we're almost like influencer first approach, 00:30:34.512 --> 00:30:38.701 like which does open the door, which does bring more opportunities or is 00:30:38.701 --> 00:30:44.192 my job to really show developers who I know are judging and watching what 00:30:44.197 --> 00:30:47.611 I'm doing and will turn the live stream off if I can't load it, like run a web. 00:30:48.676 --> 00:30:52.186 Service like am I trying to show them we are dead serious about 00:30:52.186 --> 00:30:55.992 like engine engineering excellence and we have your back and we know 00:30:55.992 --> 00:30:57.102 what the hell we're talking about. 00:30:57.222 --> 00:31:01.542 Where I'm torn is it does depend on the company and so, and it does, I guess go 00:31:01.542 --> 00:31:07.212 back to the, the org question cuz I'm so proud of the folks that have gone 00:31:07.212 --> 00:31:11.232 to the industry and have like really like, had a lot of launches and, and, 00:31:11.232 --> 00:31:13.692 and grew up into a role, but I also. 00:31:15.027 --> 00:31:18.237 Developers, the audience is some of the most critical, opinionated 00:31:18.237 --> 00:31:19.257 folks I've ever dealt with. 00:31:19.317 --> 00:31:24.057 And I know that if myself or someone on my team is giving a, a talk 00:31:24.062 --> 00:31:25.647 that the code hasn't been reviewed. 00:31:25.679 --> 00:31:27.504 We haven't dog food ourself. 00:31:27.804 --> 00:31:31.768 It's a lot of I don't wanna say fluffs not the right word, but it's like really? 00:31:31.837 --> 00:31:32.677 What's backpack? 00:31:32.677 --> 00:31:33.157 No books. 00:31:33.157 --> 00:31:33.337 Right? 00:31:33.337 --> 00:31:37.717 Like really low on content that could get a dev to take the action. 00:31:38.437 --> 00:31:39.967 I'm pretty critical of myself. 00:31:39.967 --> 00:31:43.574 And so that's, I think where I'm torn is yeah, the influencer based devrel 00:31:43.974 --> 00:31:46.718 versus the building in public devrel. 00:31:46.736 --> 00:31:51.429 And I think it depends on, is the goal to get, I don't know. 00:31:51.429 --> 00:31:55.674 I, I, I don't wanna be definitive on it cuz it really depends on 00:31:55.674 --> 00:31:56.947 the situation and the company. 00:31:56.958 --> 00:31:59.148 I, I feel like I can have a stronger opinion in 00:31:59.373 --> 00:31:59.613 Colin: Yeah. 00:32:00.768 --> 00:32:04.608 Well, I think this is similar to the paths that engineers have to take anyway. 00:32:04.608 --> 00:32:07.428 I mean, there's the whole, do I go down the manager track? 00:32:07.428 --> 00:32:08.988 Do I stay as an ic? 00:32:09.438 --> 00:32:13.518 But I think dev advocacy is another, you know, branch on that as well. 00:32:13.523 --> 00:32:16.137 Whether you start there, you end up there I think. 00:32:16.697 --> 00:32:20.567 Just looking from the sidelines, I'd think that it's not a very 00:32:20.567 --> 00:32:23.747 productive conversation to compare the two as to which one's better. 00:32:23.837 --> 00:32:26.897 I think they're just different and different people are gonna be drawn 00:32:26.897 --> 00:32:31.187 to different things, and so we can let the internet debate this conversation. 00:32:31.207 --> 00:32:33.557 I, I would've, I would've started with this question if 00:32:33.557 --> 00:32:34.787 I knew it was so polarizing, 00:32:35.317 --> 00:32:37.357 Trag: Well, and I think on top of that, the, the, the other one you 00:32:37.357 --> 00:32:41.827 just touched on is also equally, I would personally say I've been pretty 00:32:42.097 --> 00:32:43.797 unconventional about the manager question. 00:32:43.802 --> 00:32:48.204 So at Evernote, like very, so I was I was a web developer and then 00:32:48.204 --> 00:32:52.914 I became a developer advocate 10, so years ago, and it was still. 00:32:54.609 --> 00:32:55.329 AWS was just coming out. 00:32:55.329 --> 00:32:57.279 It was kind of like a different, we're still, everyone was still like 00:32:57.279 --> 00:32:58.539 still figuring it out in the field. 00:32:58.539 --> 00:32:58.959 What the hell? 00:32:59.289 --> 00:33:00.069 How the hell the job was. 00:33:00.609 --> 00:33:03.369 And so I very quickly grew up into a leadership role. 00:33:03.374 --> 00:33:08.064 I was like, Director of Ations, I was 25, I don't know. 00:33:08.157 --> 00:33:08.997 Yeah, I was 25. 00:33:08.997 --> 00:33:11.787 I had no idea what I was doing. 00:33:12.387 --> 00:33:16.887 And then I jumped into Roku, where I came in as an executive. 00:33:16.887 --> 00:33:18.717 I was the youngest executive in their company. 00:33:18.957 --> 00:33:21.507 And it was very much like, very away from the tactics. 00:33:21.507 --> 00:33:26.286 It was like, how are we gonna develop the strategy to then roll out the details? 00:33:26.286 --> 00:33:29.696 And so you just think differently when you're developing hardware. 00:33:29.696 --> 00:33:30.666 You have to be waterfall. 00:33:31.491 --> 00:33:33.531 , you have to ship this device for Black Friday. 00:33:33.861 --> 00:33:37.281 And so software decisions have to be made in the lockdown. 00:33:37.281 --> 00:33:40.041 There is no sass, like, oh, we can push the button later. 00:33:40.401 --> 00:33:43.971 And so to answer like what I'm saying there is like I went to this thing where, 00:33:43.971 --> 00:33:47.931 because I work well with people, because I think I'm a pretty, I think fairly 00:33:47.931 --> 00:33:50.871 high empathy, high eq, I care to a fault. 00:33:51.081 --> 00:33:53.661 I grew very senior, quickly to senior. 00:33:53.991 --> 00:33:56.836 And so actually at Stripe I jumped back into ic. 00:33:56.836 --> 00:33:58.006 So it's like Stripe hired me. 00:33:58.786 --> 00:34:01.156 A developer advocate, like I thought the job was cool. 00:34:01.156 --> 00:34:02.176 I loved the product. 00:34:02.626 --> 00:34:06.706 I had made an idiot mistake and turned down stripe a decade before 00:34:06.706 --> 00:34:08.026 when they were like nine people. 00:34:08.206 --> 00:34:09.016 And so I was like, you know what? 00:34:09.196 --> 00:34:11.146 Yeah, I'd love to just go back to being a dev advocate. 00:34:11.146 --> 00:34:13.015 Like I felt overwhelmed by the strategy. 00:34:13.015 --> 00:34:17.095 And so that four year stripe process Yeah, the first year I was icy. 00:34:17.335 --> 00:34:17.455 Yeah. 00:34:17.455 --> 00:34:21.625 I stepped up eventually when they asked me to lead the team, but I have really 00:34:21.625 --> 00:34:26.935 appreciated every five years they're so oscillating between senior IC and manager. 00:34:29.100 --> 00:34:32.455 and I know that's not for everyone, but for my career it's actually been great. 00:34:32.455 --> 00:34:35.965 Like I've had a lot of mentors older than I, like, tell me like there 00:34:35.965 --> 00:34:39.635 was that point in their career when they could keep going more senior. 00:34:39.641 --> 00:34:42.591 Definitely golden handcuffs pay wise, but they lost that. 00:34:42.591 --> 00:34:45.993 Like con Marie, like that Marie Condo, like, does your job, especially your 00:34:45.993 --> 00:34:48.393 technical job or Derell job, give you joy? 00:34:48.783 --> 00:34:52.473 And I think like I've benefited from being able to just shake it up. 00:34:53.878 --> 00:34:57.438 . And so for me, if some, like, I don't know, like I, I could see myself going 00:34:57.438 --> 00:35:02.804 back into a startup and going icy or like, you know just like a team of one 00:35:02.809 --> 00:35:04.634 until it makes sense to grow it up again. 00:35:04.746 --> 00:35:09.261 What I will say is I not to put CJ on the spot here, so cj, CJ and I were peers, 00:35:09.261 --> 00:35:13.461 and then I became, I kind of took over the team and CJ ended up reporting it to me. 00:35:13.461 --> 00:35:16.941 And one thing I really appreciated about CJ was two specific things. 00:35:18.576 --> 00:35:21.306 He was very intentional about like, I am a developer advocate. 00:35:21.846 --> 00:35:24.806 I, I'm a software engineer who also happens to be a dev advocate. 00:35:24.811 --> 00:35:27.426 And I think that was, that authentic approach was really 00:35:27.426 --> 00:35:28.626 appreciated in the community. 00:35:28.956 --> 00:35:29.976 It's not one or the other. 00:35:29.976 --> 00:35:33.306 It's like, I'm gonna keep my chops up and that's going to 00:35:33.366 --> 00:35:34.686 really help developers learn. 00:35:34.686 --> 00:35:37.926 The other thing I appreciated that most people, as they're growing 00:35:37.926 --> 00:35:39.336 their career, have a hard time doing. 00:35:39.336 --> 00:35:43.643 He is like cj not spot, but he was like, I wanna stay in ic. 00:35:43.673 --> 00:35:47.543 Like, Really wanna see an IC and I don't think the 00:35:47.543 --> 00:35:48.593 management track is right for me. 00:35:48.593 --> 00:35:52.973 And that honestly helped so much for someone to have that type of 00:35:54.263 --> 00:35:58.913 clear voyance, like most people don't get intentional like that. 00:35:58.928 --> 00:36:00.571 I dunno, CJ if you wanna touch on that at all, 00:36:01.126 --> 00:36:04.455 CJ: Yeah, I mean I had a little bit of experience managing at a previous 00:36:04.455 --> 00:36:07.605 role and it was not a good fit. 00:36:07.845 --> 00:36:13.374 I had The awful experience of having to let somebody go and 00:36:13.434 --> 00:36:16.264 that kind of just yeah, I was like, I never wanna do that again. 00:36:16.264 --> 00:36:17.674 I never wanna be in that position again. 00:36:17.764 --> 00:36:21.934 And I, yeah, I love just getting into flow and executing on projects and 00:36:21.934 --> 00:36:25.363 so yeah, I think it's totally okay if you wanna stay in IC forever. 00:36:25.483 --> 00:36:28.273 And it's also totally okay if you wanna be a manager or if you wanna like do this 00:36:28.273 --> 00:36:30.823 pendulum thing and swing back and forth. 00:36:30.890 --> 00:36:33.467 So that might be a good, good spot to wrap up. 00:36:33.467 --> 00:36:34.067 What do you say? 00:36:34.462 --> 00:36:34.852 Trag: Yeah. 00:36:34.852 --> 00:36:37.262 I really appreciate you both and yeah, it's been fun to listen 00:36:37.262 --> 00:36:40.170 to the podcast and yeah, having y'all's conversational approach. 00:36:40.590 --> 00:36:42.630 CJ: Thanks Aton for joining Trag. 00:36:42.660 --> 00:36:46.907 I know there's a million things that I've learned from you over the past several 00:36:46.907 --> 00:36:51.856 years, and so continuing to be able to just you know, rack your brain, has 00:36:51.861 --> 00:36:54.856 been, has been great, even though it's been a, it's been a few months since 00:36:54.856 --> 00:36:56.356 we've, we've had a chance to catch up. 00:36:56.356 --> 00:36:58.126 So thanks again. 00:36:58.126 --> 00:37:00.241 Really appreciate you coming on and yeah, everything that 00:37:00.241 --> 00:37:01.291 you've done for me in my career. 00:37:01.697 --> 00:37:03.857 Colin: Thanks for listening to Build and Learn. 00:37:03.977 --> 00:37:05.257 We will catch you next time. 00:37:06.392 --> 00:37:06.542 CJ: Bye.