WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:54.583 --> 00:01:56.293 Duke: Okay, Corey, you mind if I give the intro this time? 00:01:57.193 --> 00:01:57.913 CJ: Oh man. 00:01:58.113 --> 00:02:00.503 So we're gonna, we're gonna change things up. 00:02:00.503 --> 00:02:00.973 Let's do it. 00:02:02.177 --> 00:02:05.867 Duke: So I have been involved in a lot of conversations over the past 00:02:05.867 --> 00:02:08.567 little bit about engagement managers. 00:02:08.567 --> 00:02:10.637 I've just had a lot more people who are new to the ecosystem 00:02:10.637 --> 00:02:12.137 who are curious about the role. 00:02:12.387 --> 00:02:15.057 , I've talked to people about the differences about PMs and ems and so 00:02:15.147 --> 00:02:17.547 Corey and I thought maybe it would be a cool idea since we've done 00:02:17.547 --> 00:02:20.877 the admin, the ba, the architect, the implementation consultant. 00:02:20.877 --> 00:02:25.527 Maybe we do an episode that talks exclusively about engagement managers. 00:02:25.532 --> 00:02:26.187 What do you say, Corey? 00:02:26.997 --> 00:02:28.107 CJ: Yeah, let's do it Duke. 00:02:29.053 --> 00:02:31.693 . Duke: So I guess the first question obviously is, what 00:02:31.693 --> 00:02:33.643 does an engagement manager do? 00:02:34.143 --> 00:02:34.773 CJ: Yeah, man. 00:02:34.773 --> 00:02:36.123 So that's a really good question. 00:02:36.123 --> 00:02:39.713 I'm going to punt that one to you and let you start it off, 00:02:40.370 --> 00:02:45.397 Duke: my interactions with engagement managers has been when a project has 00:02:45.397 --> 00:02:50.340 big teams on both sides, So you're, you have an organization in all its 00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:52.010 stakeholders in a ServiceNow deployment. 00:02:52.402 --> 00:02:56.405 And the partner, the services partner has a bunch of people 00:02:56.405 --> 00:02:57.725 coming to the table as well, right? 00:02:57.725 --> 00:03:00.725 So you've got an architect, you've got devs, you've got, you know, 00:03:00.725 --> 00:03:04.235 maybe BA people, some QA people, and 00:03:04.797 --> 00:03:05.272 CJ: people. 00:03:05.332 --> 00:03:05.902 Duke: Exactly. 00:03:05.902 --> 00:03:07.792 Now does everybody just talk to everybody? 00:03:07.882 --> 00:03:08.122 Yeah. 00:03:08.122 --> 00:03:09.832 A couple of BS people for sure. 00:03:11.812 --> 00:03:12.202 Yeah. 00:03:12.258 --> 00:03:14.478 but does everybody talk to everybody? 00:03:14.795 --> 00:03:17.885 No, everything kind of filters up on, both sides, right? 00:03:17.885 --> 00:03:20.945 There's a prime person on the customer side, and there's a prime 00:03:20.945 --> 00:03:23.962 person on the, service provider side. 00:03:24.532 --> 00:03:31.335 And I would say that prime person is the engagement manager on the services side. 00:03:31.825 --> 00:03:32.155 CJ: Got 00:03:32.305 --> 00:03:34.945 Duke: is, it is the face of the project. 00:03:35.392 --> 00:03:35.882 CJ: Okay. 00:03:36.122 --> 00:03:39.092 Duke: From the on the delivery side, the customer has a face too, right? 00:03:39.092 --> 00:03:40.202 That's the prime stakeholder. 00:03:40.202 --> 00:03:42.752 The person who calls all the shots, the person you're doing it for. 00:03:42.757 --> 00:03:45.595 The person who's most involved in the day-to-day, But what do you call the 00:03:45.600 --> 00:03:47.065 equivalent of that on the delivery side? 00:03:47.065 --> 00:03:51.048 The person who answers for everybody else, and I say, that's an engagement 00:03:51.048 --> 00:03:53.688 manager, and we're gonna see there's gonna be some gray areas, right? 00:03:53.688 --> 00:03:56.208 Because a lot of people have probably been in situations where it's like, 00:03:56.238 --> 00:03:58.578 oh, I know that person, but they didn't call themselves an engagement manager. 00:03:58.868 --> 00:04:01.988 Nevertheless, that's the role they're playing in that moment, 00:04:02.382 --> 00:04:02.802 CJ: all right. 00:04:02.832 --> 00:04:03.072 Okay. 00:04:03.072 --> 00:04:03.882 I'll follow you now. 00:04:04.092 --> 00:04:07.932 So it's basically, so we're looking at the engagement manager that whether 00:04:07.932 --> 00:04:12.852 or not you're actually actually dubbed that, those specific words as the person 00:04:12.852 --> 00:04:18.972 who is manag the engagement and talking to the other side of the other size 00:04:18.972 --> 00:04:20.772 person who's managing that engagement. 00:04:20.862 --> 00:04:21.102 Right. 00:04:21.102 --> 00:04:21.642 Like just to. 00:04:21.882 --> 00:04:25.722 Just kind of trying to herd all the cats and keep everything in line and 00:04:25.722 --> 00:04:27.498 making sure it gets to the goal line. 00:04:27.588 --> 00:04:29.388 So then let's ask this question, dude. 00:04:29.418 --> 00:04:31.968 What's the difference between an EM and a pm? 00:04:32.387 --> 00:04:35.637 Duke: Okay, so I would, uh, Colleen falling in line with what an 00:04:35.837 --> 00:04:36.737 engagement manager does, right? 00:04:36.737 --> 00:04:41.787 They're the, the face of the project and a PM can sometimes be that as well, 00:04:41.932 --> 00:04:42.422 CJ: Okay. 00:04:42.657 --> 00:04:45.417 Duke: but we also know PMs that aren't that person. 00:04:46.063 --> 00:04:47.023 CJ: True, right? 00:04:47.023 --> 00:04:51.250 Like so I, okay, so I, so the right, cuz the PM is often a lot 00:04:51.250 --> 00:04:55.330 more in tune with the deliverable side of it and not necessarily 00:04:55.330 --> 00:04:57.670 managing the project as a concept, 00:04:58.330 --> 00:05:02.913 Duke: So I would say it's kind of like the EM is acting as the face of the project, 00:05:02.913 --> 00:05:04.623 the single source of accountability. 00:05:05.253 --> 00:05:09.200 Um, and also the prime, faced organizer. 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:14.090 And when I say that, I mean it in the ways that all that the PM is not. 00:05:14.090 --> 00:05:18.210 So a PM might be like, well I know that we have to do all these workshops 00:05:18.210 --> 00:05:19.250 and they have to be in sequence. 00:05:19.250 --> 00:05:21.380 Cause each one relies on the, on the previous. 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:27.270 And I know that that must become before we do a, deliver deliverables review. 00:05:27.390 --> 00:05:30.180 And that happens to happen before we do a whatever. 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:31.050 Okay. 00:05:31.470 --> 00:05:36.742 So the PM is gonna like, organize all that Structure the work, but the em, I think 00:05:36.742 --> 00:05:41.862 is the person who's gonna be like, okay, so first workshop is about discovery, 00:05:41.867 --> 00:05:44.412 so we're gonna need your ser, someone from your server team, someone from 00:05:44.412 --> 00:05:47.652 your network team, and blah, blah, blah. 00:05:47.745 --> 00:05:49.575 How do we go about finding those people? 00:05:49.808 --> 00:05:51.938 Customer, can you please gimme a list of their names? 00:05:51.938 --> 00:05:53.168 I'm gonna go get this organized. 00:05:53.168 --> 00:05:54.428 We'll send out an invite. 00:05:55.478 --> 00:05:56.228 You see what I mean? 00:05:56.408 --> 00:05:57.548 Like they're the people. 00:05:57.548 --> 00:06:02.768 The motive force, the people who will actually do compulsively do the things 00:06:02.802 --> 00:06:05.375 that the organization of it requires. 00:06:05.718 --> 00:06:06.498 make any sense. 00:06:07.083 --> 00:06:09.213 CJ: Yeah, I, I think I'm following this right. 00:06:09.213 --> 00:06:14.853 So the em is, is the person, right, who is charged with not just the 00:06:14.853 --> 00:06:16.473 deliverables of the project, right? 00:06:16.473 --> 00:06:17.703 Because that's the project manager. 00:06:17.703 --> 00:06:20.793 The project manager is calling people like me as an architect, 00:06:20.793 --> 00:06:22.563 saying, Hey, did you do this thing? 00:06:22.568 --> 00:06:23.583 When is it gonna be complete? 00:06:23.883 --> 00:06:26.553 One of your developers gonna finish their stories, right? 00:06:26.553 --> 00:06:27.663 Like that sort of thing. 00:06:28.083 --> 00:06:31.653 And they're reporting up to the em, the em, em is basically calling the 00:06:31.653 --> 00:06:34.713 other side, like, Hey, all right, so we've got these things scheduled, 00:06:34.713 --> 00:06:36.093 or do you have your people ready? 00:06:36.093 --> 00:06:39.273 These things we're gonna do, we need to report up the management on this 00:06:39.278 --> 00:06:42.513 date, and you know, we're gonna make sure we have this presentation done 00:06:42.513 --> 00:06:45.303 for 'em so they can understand the value and where we are in this thing. 00:06:45.483 --> 00:06:50.493 And really just kind of being that single source of truth for the project from 00:06:50.763 --> 00:06:53.313 that per that side of, of the engagement. 00:06:53.618 --> 00:06:54.068 Duke: It's a shame. 00:06:54.068 --> 00:06:56.528 I gotta think about this in terms of like when it goes wrong, right? 00:06:56.528 --> 00:06:59.708 But when an implementation starts going wrong and a customer has like 00:06:59.708 --> 00:07:02.738 significant issues that they wanna address, like I had a customer once 00:07:02.738 --> 00:07:06.679 where the partner came in, they had like a team of bas, they had a team of 00:07:06.679 --> 00:07:08.419 developers, but they were all offshore. 00:07:08.659 --> 00:07:10.729 And so it was basically requirements gathering. 00:07:10.729 --> 00:07:15.287 Went to the BAS in our meetings and then we come in the next day or the 00:07:15.287 --> 00:07:19.037 next few days and we'd, we'd see the development and it was all wrong. 00:07:19.677 --> 00:07:20.237 CJ: Right, 00:07:20.710 --> 00:07:24.170 Duke: And it was just like, do we, do we scream at the bas? 00:07:24.300 --> 00:07:28.794 No, it was fundamentally a problem with the structure of the project. 00:07:28.794 --> 00:07:31.134 It was like, oh, you can't talk to the developers cuz they're 00:07:31.134 --> 00:07:32.004 in a different time zone. 00:07:32.154 --> 00:07:33.894 Well, excuse me, who's the customer here? 00:07:34.794 --> 00:07:35.004 Right? 00:07:35.009 --> 00:07:37.704 But we're having that conversation with the engagement manager. 00:07:37.824 --> 00:07:39.354 We're not happy about this. 00:07:39.804 --> 00:07:40.374 CJ: Right. 00:07:40.464 --> 00:07:41.514 Duke: not happy about. 00:07:42.084 --> 00:07:45.474 Who's got the authority to make this thing change? 00:07:46.014 --> 00:07:46.314 CJ: Hmm. 00:07:46.794 --> 00:07:49.164 Duke: Okay, so the engagement manager says, you write, you're absolutely right. 00:07:49.164 --> 00:07:51.084 Let's get an onshore developer into the mix. 00:07:51.084 --> 00:07:53.244 Let's, you know, maybe we don't need as many bas or 00:07:53.244 --> 00:07:54.234 whatever, you know what I mean? 00:07:54.234 --> 00:07:57.384 But they have, they, like, on top of being the face, they also have the authority 00:07:57.384 --> 00:08:00.464 to , change the parameters of the project. 00:08:00.884 --> 00:08:03.164 CJ: So the chief stakeholder for the delivery side? 00:08:03.434 --> 00:08:04.874 Duke: Yes, absolutely. 00:08:05.114 --> 00:08:05.504 Absolutely. 00:08:05.504 --> 00:08:08.214 And I the perfect metaphor in my mind is just the face. 00:08:08.574 --> 00:08:09.114 CJ: Yeah. 00:08:09.339 --> 00:08:09.639 Duke: Right. 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:12.849 When we, when when you and I talk, I talk to your face, you talk to my 00:08:12.849 --> 00:08:15.939 face, you don't talk to my hands, you don't talk to my feet, even 00:08:15.939 --> 00:08:19.179 though they're, you know, critical in whatever it is we do together, right? 00:08:19.179 --> 00:08:21.249 But it's just like we talk to each other's face. 00:08:21.254 --> 00:08:23.739 This is the, the engagement managers is that face 00:08:24.371 --> 00:08:25.271 CJ: that makes sense to me. 00:08:25.276 --> 00:08:27.551 All right, so I'm, I'm seeing a distinction now, right? 00:08:27.551 --> 00:08:30.341 Like between the engagement manager and the project manager, because 00:08:30.346 --> 00:08:34.091 the project manager does have a different manifest sort of, duty in the 00:08:34.091 --> 00:08:35.591 project than the engagement manager. 00:08:35.944 --> 00:08:38.194 All right, so what makes a good engagement manager? 00:08:38.822 --> 00:08:39.312 Duke: Okay. 00:08:39.317 --> 00:08:41.042 What makes a good engagement manager? 00:08:41.042 --> 00:08:44.994 So when I look at the, of the successful implementations and the engagement 00:08:44.994 --> 00:08:50.391 managers that I've enjoyed working with and like just everything went smooth is a 00:08:50.391 --> 00:08:55.401 certain amount of confidence and charisma, the intangibles of human behavior, 00:08:55.426 --> 00:08:57.676 ? we like this person, we don't know why is this cool to hang out 00:08:57.676 --> 00:08:59.296 with them, this person, right? 00:09:00.686 --> 00:09:04.819 Like the people who are, that are naturally likable. 00:09:05.404 --> 00:09:06.004 CJ: Right, 00:09:06.094 --> 00:09:08.794 Duke: and charismatic, when they walk into the room, everybody 00:09:08.794 --> 00:09:10.234 notices that they walk into the room. 00:09:10.564 --> 00:09:12.514 When they talk, everybody else goes quiet. 00:09:12.814 --> 00:09:13.204 Right. 00:09:13.524 --> 00:09:16.374 they have that intangible presence about them. 00:09:16.794 --> 00:09:17.034 CJ: Press. 00:09:17.334 --> 00:09:17.904 I like that. 00:09:18.114 --> 00:09:18.564 Duke: Right. 00:09:18.744 --> 00:09:20.724 The gravitas, that's the word you use, right? 00:09:21.144 --> 00:09:21.774 CJ: yeah, yeah. 00:09:21.774 --> 00:09:22.914 The grandma's house. 00:09:22.944 --> 00:09:23.394 Duke: Yeah. 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:25.134 There's, there's a presence about 'em. 00:09:25.134 --> 00:09:28.314 And it helps because you're about to walk into a place and tell them 00:09:28.314 --> 00:09:30.114 like a new way of living essentially. 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:31.329 CJ: Yeah. 00:09:31.359 --> 00:09:33.939 And you're gonna have to make them understand, you're gonna 00:09:33.939 --> 00:09:34.989 have to convince them of it. 00:09:34.989 --> 00:09:35.169 Right. 00:09:35.169 --> 00:09:36.399 Like you want them to agree with 00:09:36.534 --> 00:09:38.784 Duke: Yeah, there's a persuasiveness about it. 00:09:38.941 --> 00:09:41.791 and so obviously the more naturally persuasive you are, the more 00:09:41.796 --> 00:09:43.201 success you're gonna have with that. 00:09:43.261 --> 00:09:47.191 And I also think of charisma in terms of like a coolness and a calmness, 00:09:47.191 --> 00:09:51.711 Because a lot of their value is if and when things start getting uncomfortable. 00:09:52.011 --> 00:09:56.511 Like the customer is really pissed off about, okay, well how come I can, how 00:09:56.511 --> 00:09:58.341 come we can never talk to the developers? 00:09:58.341 --> 00:10:00.951 Because all your developers are offshore and you're only giving me 00:10:01.131 --> 00:10:05.721 people onshore who can't tell me what's going on with the developers, and I'm 00:10:05.721 --> 00:10:07.551 pissed, and now it's your problem. 00:10:08.272 --> 00:10:08.632 CJ: right. 00:10:08.632 --> 00:10:12.022 And then this in person slides in, it's like, oh, whoa, calm down. 00:10:12.217 --> 00:10:14.527 Duke: No, you're, you know what, no, I, that's absolutely, 00:10:14.527 --> 00:10:15.637 you're absolutely right. 00:10:16.117 --> 00:10:18.367 That's a terrible, place for us to be in. 00:10:18.547 --> 00:10:22.059 So, I have the authorization to change the parameters. 00:10:22.059 --> 00:10:24.879 This project, I'm acting all like, I'm like, I got the 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:25.839 confidence charisma, right? 00:10:25.839 --> 00:10:27.549 But, but you see what I mean? 00:10:27.549 --> 00:10:30.849 They have to be the kind of person who is in the middle of the storm. 00:10:31.149 --> 00:10:32.439 They can just handle it. 00:10:33.339 --> 00:10:34.569 They can get yelled at. 00:10:34.899 --> 00:10:38.799 They can be the person who has the finger pointed into their chest. 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:39.879 You know what I mean? 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:41.199 They will receive. 00:10:41.381 --> 00:10:47.291 the anger, the discomfort, the negative energies of when things start going wrong. 00:10:47.652 --> 00:10:51.462 CJ: So, I mean, the next thing too for me right then is that this person needs to 00:10:51.462 --> 00:10:55.369 be trusted, not just by the organization that they're representing, but also 00:10:55.369 --> 00:10:57.559 with the client organization too, right? 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:01.489 The client has to trust that they have the authority on their side of the 00:11:01.489 --> 00:11:06.092 fence to get things done and the um, the, on the deployment side, right? 00:11:06.092 --> 00:11:09.812 They have to have that trust internally that when they come to, 00:11:09.962 --> 00:11:13.647 you know, internally and say, Hey, This client is really on the lash. 00:11:13.647 --> 00:11:16.827 We really need to talk 'em down, and to do that, we need to change 00:11:16.827 --> 00:11:18.387 our development methodology. 00:11:18.507 --> 00:11:21.507 They need to have that trust internally to be able to make that happen. 00:11:22.216 --> 00:11:25.061 Duke: I think also an exceptional level of narrative building, 00:11:25.431 --> 00:11:25.921 CJ: Okay. 00:11:26.261 --> 00:11:29.231 Duke: if, especially on longer projects, it really matters 00:11:29.231 --> 00:11:32.771 that everybody understands the successes that we've had so far. 00:11:33.011 --> 00:11:33.461 CJ: Yeah. 00:11:33.461 --> 00:11:33.941 Right. 00:11:33.971 --> 00:11:34.421 Duke: know what I mean? 00:11:34.421 --> 00:11:35.621 So we keep the momentum up. 00:11:35.621 --> 00:11:38.392 It's not like, Christmas where everybody's waiting until the night 00:11:38.392 --> 00:11:41.422 before the go live to see if we get something cool under the tree. 00:11:41.917 --> 00:11:42.397 CJ: Yeah, no. 00:11:42.397 --> 00:11:42.667 Right. 00:11:42.667 --> 00:11:45.157 Like by the, it is, none of this stuff should be a surprise. 00:11:45.397 --> 00:11:45.607 Right. 00:11:45.607 --> 00:11:48.367 And I think, I think sometimes we, you know, we, we forget 00:11:48.367 --> 00:11:50.947 about that when we're, when we're actually doing deployments, right? 00:11:51.067 --> 00:11:54.074 Or any kind of, uh, a project, the, the outcome of this 00:11:54.074 --> 00:11:55.574 should never be a surprise. 00:11:55.574 --> 00:11:58.221 Like there should never be a point in the project, That. 00:11:58.806 --> 00:12:03.006 We are uncertain what's going to happen next week or next month or 00:12:03.006 --> 00:12:05.046 next sprint or what have you, right? 00:12:05.046 --> 00:12:06.606 Like all this stuff should be communicated. 00:12:06.606 --> 00:12:09.186 Everybody should be more withstanding for major things, right? 00:12:09.186 --> 00:12:10.356 I mean, things pop up, right? 00:12:10.356 --> 00:12:13.146 Like this feature might be a little harder to develop than we thought. 00:12:13.446 --> 00:12:17.356 But at the end of the day, if the go live is on May 1st, we should know 00:12:17.356 --> 00:12:22.846 that we are gonna be able to hit May 1st date or not way before May 1st. 00:12:23.082 --> 00:12:26.112 we shouldn't be surprised on April 15th that we can't hit May 1st. 00:12:26.322 --> 00:12:27.432 That's the project Fair. 00:12:27.922 --> 00:12:30.112 And, and telling that story to your stakeholders and telling 00:12:30.112 --> 00:12:31.762 that story to your clients, right? 00:12:31.762 --> 00:12:35.609 Like, so do they understand where we are, I think is one of the most critical skills 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:37.769 of a, of an engagement manager, right? 00:12:37.769 --> 00:12:39.569 Because that's so perception, right? 00:12:39.569 --> 00:12:43.026 Like, can, could really throw a project off, we could be doing 00:12:43.031 --> 00:12:46.912 everything well, but if our client thinks that we're screwing up, like 00:12:46.912 --> 00:12:47.662 that's all that really matters. 00:12:48.277 --> 00:12:48.757 Duke: that's right. 00:12:48.757 --> 00:12:51.397 , it's like constant pulse checks, how do you feel about us going and, 00:12:51.402 --> 00:12:52.747 and, and it, you see what I mean? 00:12:52.747 --> 00:12:57.217 How like there's, a part of this that is beyond the project manager, So how do you 00:12:57.217 --> 00:13:00.307 feel about how things are going to, do you feel like you're being listened to? 00:13:00.307 --> 00:13:05.227 Like, are we going after the outcomes that we originally thought, you know, 00:13:05.227 --> 00:13:08.197 a pulse check and, and that has nothing to do with cost, schedule, scope. 00:13:08.437 --> 00:13:09.607 Well, maybe scope, I don't know. 00:13:09.787 --> 00:13:10.867 But you know what I mean. 00:13:10.867 --> 00:13:14.567 It feels like it's beyond just the, we are off schedule, 00:13:14.766 --> 00:13:15.126 CJ: Yeah. 00:13:15.171 --> 00:13:17.601 Duke: we are, but maybe everybody's happy about it because we're 00:13:17.601 --> 00:13:19.731 factoring for something else. 00:13:19.761 --> 00:13:20.061 But 00:13:20.091 --> 00:13:20.691 CJ: Yeah, maybe. 00:13:20.691 --> 00:13:24.231 Maybe we scope creeped a little bit and it was acceptable scope creep, so 00:13:24.231 --> 00:13:25.491 that put us off schedule a little bit. 00:13:25.491 --> 00:13:26.991 But everybody's okay with that, right? 00:13:27.171 --> 00:13:28.101 Because know what they're getting. 00:13:28.101 --> 00:13:30.651 We've communicated the value of what they're getting, and we've 00:13:30.651 --> 00:13:34.911 communicated extensively on how that that additional value took us off scope 00:13:34.911 --> 00:13:36.831 and off schedule, and everybody's fine. 00:13:36.941 --> 00:13:37.501 Right? 00:13:37.581 --> 00:13:42.694 Duke: now what I also know is to talk about narrative, capability is, somebody 00:13:42.694 --> 00:13:46.364 who can build a good narrative, kind of understands what their audience wants. 00:13:46.524 --> 00:13:46.814 I. 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:47.649 CJ: Yeah. 00:13:48.344 --> 00:13:51.724 Duke: Okay, so I was in a meeting, this is like one of my clients I was 00:13:51.724 --> 00:13:55.397 at, and, I was kind of like the Far Architect episode, remember, I, I was 00:13:55.402 --> 00:13:59.357 like the independent architect that was just there to like, be advice 00:13:59.357 --> 00:14:02.237 for the customer and not trying to scale up my operations there. 00:14:02.867 --> 00:14:07.787 And they had a, a, a large partner in with a large team, very large team. 00:14:08.297 --> 00:14:11.374 And it was just kind of in the opening phases of the project. 00:14:11.554 --> 00:14:15.624 And , the prime stakeholder on the customer side said something like, and 00:14:15.654 --> 00:14:19.624 this is the consultants we brought in and the engagement manager, like 00:14:19.624 --> 00:14:21.874 flat out interrupted her on the call. 00:14:22.414 --> 00:14:24.514 And said, oh no, I have to stop you there. 00:14:24.574 --> 00:14:29.707 I have, I have to stop you there because, we're not just consultants, we're partners 00:14:29.947 --> 00:14:34.177 and it, diminishes what we offer to your organization if you call us consultants. 00:14:34.417 --> 00:14:38.167 And so we have to be called partners for this implementation 00:14:38.172 --> 00:14:39.457 because that's what we are for you. 00:14:39.457 --> 00:14:40.207 And I'm just like, you know what? 00:14:40.207 --> 00:14:42.907 A partner wouldn't have interrupted me in the middle of my speech, in 00:14:42.907 --> 00:14:45.487 front of my peers to say that. 00:14:51.002 --> 00:14:51.602 CJ: Yes. 00:14:51.632 --> 00:14:52.052 Okay. 00:14:52.052 --> 00:14:56.522 Right, and that, I think that is one of the right tact would be another one of 00:14:56.522 --> 00:14:58.082 the skills that an engagement manager. 00:14:58.142 --> 00:14:58.802 I have, right? 00:14:59.342 --> 00:15:03.032 The ability to know when, when to speak up and when not to, right? 00:15:03.112 --> 00:15:05.962 Duke: it was, it is an entirely bad narrative. 00:15:06.062 --> 00:15:08.722 You completely miss the fact that if you want to be the partner, 00:15:08.722 --> 00:15:09.712 prove you're the partner. 00:15:09.712 --> 00:15:12.102 Don't just like demand to be, you know what I mean? 00:15:12.997 --> 00:15:14.377 CJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:15:14.542 --> 00:15:15.322 Duke: I demand you. 00:15:15.812 --> 00:15:16.792 Perceive me in this way. 00:15:17.162 --> 00:15:17.652 Well 00:15:18.044 --> 00:15:18.374 CJ: No, 00:15:18.549 --> 00:15:18.829 Duke: man. 00:15:20.414 --> 00:15:20.744 CJ: no. 00:15:20.744 --> 00:15:22.724 Like you don't, you need to do the thing, right? 00:15:22.729 --> 00:15:27.069 Like if you do the thing, then we will think you are the, person, right? 00:15:27.069 --> 00:15:30.099 Who does the thing, that's what it comes down to, I don't tell people that 00:15:30.099 --> 00:15:31.839 I'm a ServiceNow architect by going in. 00:15:31.844 --> 00:15:35.202 I talk to 'em and they're like, man, that guy, ServiceNow architect, they get it. 00:15:35.287 --> 00:15:37.927 man, you've nailed more about ServiceNow than anybody I've ever met. 00:15:37.927 --> 00:15:38.917 And I'm like, great, thank you. 00:15:39.007 --> 00:15:39.577 I appreciate that. 00:15:39.577 --> 00:15:42.914 I didn't tell you that though, but you just got it, and then, I don't know, like 00:15:42.914 --> 00:15:46.124 it's one of the things, and it's, you know, like limit of a tangent, right? 00:15:46.124 --> 00:15:49.274 Because I talk a little bit about, you know, myself for a minute, but 00:15:49.274 --> 00:15:53.504 one of the things that I, that I often get told when I come into a, uh, an 00:15:53.504 --> 00:15:57.314 engagement, right, is that nobody ever talks about these things like you do. 00:15:58.144 --> 00:15:58.384 Right. 00:15:58.384 --> 00:16:01.654 Or nobody ever just this aspect of thing. 00:16:01.714 --> 00:16:02.194 Right? 00:16:02.404 --> 00:16:05.922 And I feel like that's the thing that engagement managers are supposed to 00:16:05.927 --> 00:16:10.617 bring to the table as well, the ability to talk about the project in a way 00:16:10.617 --> 00:16:14.097 that's different from the way that your technical folks are talking about it. 00:16:14.321 --> 00:16:17.651 Even your architect, even your project manager, like and it goes back to 00:16:17.651 --> 00:16:18.671 that narrative building, right? 00:16:18.821 --> 00:16:21.431 The ability to, to really take the confidence, right? 00:16:21.436 --> 00:16:25.541 That calm, cool collectiveness that they have and project 00:16:25.541 --> 00:16:27.191 it out to the client, right? 00:16:27.191 --> 00:16:31.961 So that they now also feel confident in this implementation, right? 00:16:31.961 --> 00:16:35.231 They now are home and cool about it, right? 00:16:36.216 --> 00:16:38.346 Duke: and just being able to see it in other people. 00:16:38.346 --> 00:16:41.586 Like, you know, when you can tell like, that person is uncomfortable. 00:16:41.826 --> 00:16:44.766 So that means I have a job to do if I'm the engagement manager. 00:16:44.771 --> 00:16:48.792 Like I've gotta like, okay, I've gotta figure out why they look uncomfortable. 00:16:49.182 --> 00:16:49.422 CJ: yeah. 00:16:49.532 --> 00:16:50.052 Oh my God. 00:16:50.082 --> 00:16:53.382 Duke: not only that, but I've gotta like give them a pathway out of the discomfort. 00:16:53.682 --> 00:16:55.272 CJ: Yes, yes. 00:16:55.586 --> 00:16:56.396 oh my God, right? 00:16:56.796 --> 00:17:00.666 It's like build your enemy, a golden bridge upon which to retreat, right? 00:17:02.286 --> 00:17:03.816 and so like, it's the same thing here. 00:17:03.821 --> 00:17:05.556 When, when you're in a conference room, right? 00:17:05.556 --> 00:17:08.346 When you've got a bunch of stakeholders here and one of them who has 00:17:08.346 --> 00:17:10.176 a, maybe a, a influence, right? 00:17:10.176 --> 00:17:11.346 It is looking uncomfortable. 00:17:11.676 --> 00:17:13.416 You wanna figure that person out, right? 00:17:13.416 --> 00:17:16.806 You wanna figure out what's got them looking uncomfortable and what you need to 00:17:16.806 --> 00:17:19.176 do to get that person back to status quo. 00:17:19.574 --> 00:17:22.844 So you want to build them that bridge upon what you can retreat from 00:17:22.844 --> 00:17:24.914 that discomfort back to status quo. 00:17:24.914 --> 00:17:28.904 An engagement manager has to recognize that in the moment and help them get back. 00:17:29.477 --> 00:17:33.797 Duke: So just add kind of like, um, you know, freelance psychologist to the 00:17:33.797 --> 00:17:36.797 whole engagement manager skill list. 00:17:38.147 --> 00:17:39.527 CJ: Man, but this is true, right? 00:17:39.527 --> 00:17:42.197 Like these things, you know, dude, these are the things that, uh, you 00:17:42.197 --> 00:17:45.017 know, they really intrigue me about the profession that I, I don't think. 00:17:45.312 --> 00:17:48.692 Are really covered all that often and, and, and, you know, at a macro level. 00:17:48.692 --> 00:17:50.432 So I I maybe it's the meta stuff, right? 00:17:50.432 --> 00:17:53.496 It's the meta details about what we do, , in terms of being 00:17:53.501 --> 00:17:56.136 ServiceNow professionals, right? 00:17:56.136 --> 00:18:00.289 But you do need to be a bit of a, person who can do a little bit, I guess a 00:18:00.289 --> 00:18:04.102 layman psychoanalysis, right in the moment, Might be able to understand when 00:18:04.102 --> 00:18:05.872 you're in the presence of who might be. 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:08.409 getting a little challenged by what you dream, right? 00:18:08.409 --> 00:18:11.799 And trying to understand, you know, what it was, you know, that, that they 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:14.919 picked up on, that they don't like, and how to, resolve that situation. 00:18:15.069 --> 00:18:17.661 Mention, These are the thi right, these, this is the difference. 00:18:17.661 --> 00:18:18.711 Sorry, I'm, I'm going on. 00:18:18.801 --> 00:18:21.141 But, uh, this is the, this is the difference, right? 00:18:21.141 --> 00:18:25.874 But that separates folks from being just a service developer and a consultant. 00:18:26.241 --> 00:18:29.871 Like when you're a consultant, you, you bring these additional skills, these 00:18:29.871 --> 00:18:32.091 additional sauce to the table, right? 00:18:32.091 --> 00:18:35.146 That a allow you to add that additional value in these ways. 00:18:35.456 --> 00:18:38.186 Duke: That's a great segue to the next point, because. 00:18:39.646 --> 00:18:42.826 Probably by now, our listeners have probably said, wait a minute. 00:18:42.846 --> 00:18:48.196 I know a lot of people who fill this kind of role look and act that way. 00:18:48.259 --> 00:18:50.449 but they don't call themselves engagement managers. 00:18:50.969 --> 00:18:56.889 And to, to that, I say, yeah, how many other ServiceNow jobs in our 00:18:56.889 --> 00:18:59.379 space can be an amalgam of two jobs. 00:18:59.769 --> 00:19:01.869 how many admins do you know can also dev? 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.469 How many bas do you know can also dev? 00:19:04.469 --> 00:19:08.172 How many like certified implementation, specialists for 00:19:08.542 --> 00:19:10.302 S SPM can also do I I T S M. 00:19:10.352 --> 00:19:15.386 We know that one body can encompass more than one role a lot of the times. 00:19:15.416 --> 00:19:19.406 So maybe we talk about some of the most likely places where EMS overlap. 00:19:21.706 --> 00:19:22.126 CJ: Yeah. 00:19:22.156 --> 00:19:25.039 Uh, so that's a, that's a good place, duke to, to segue actually. 00:19:25.139 --> 00:19:27.444 The first thing I'd say is independent consultant. 00:19:27.829 --> 00:19:31.776 Are typically, the a place where you'll find engagement manager like skills, 00:19:32.232 --> 00:19:36.422 I mean, especially if you are a person who is parachuted into a gig and 00:19:36.422 --> 00:19:37.952 you're the only person on it, right? 00:19:37.957 --> 00:19:39.962 Which often happens to me, right? 00:19:39.962 --> 00:19:43.862 Like when I'm an independent consultant, I sh I show up and I'm the only person 00:19:43.862 --> 00:19:47.386 on the, on that ServiceNow team, at least from an outside perspective, 00:19:47.386 --> 00:19:50.476 And so there's no pm, There's just me. 00:19:50.681 --> 00:19:53.591 He's an expert and them as a, uh, in a need. 00:19:53.891 --> 00:19:57.101 And then I gotta try to manage this whole thing. 00:19:57.101 --> 00:20:00.881 From what value are you looking to try to, uh, achieve the 00:20:00.881 --> 00:20:03.011 platform and how do we get there? 00:20:03.191 --> 00:20:06.971 How do we build the narrative, for the people above you that we're generating 00:20:06.971 --> 00:20:10.271 success so that you also look good while we're doing this and they don't look. 00:20:10.571 --> 00:20:13.031 Look like they're just throwing money into a hole because they hired 00:20:13.031 --> 00:20:15.161 a consultant on, on, and on, right? 00:20:15.161 --> 00:20:18.614 Like this whole skill set that we just talked about, that a, uh, em brings to 00:20:18.614 --> 00:20:23.367 the table as an independent consultant who's running a, a project, just by a 00:20:23.367 --> 00:20:25.017 virtue that you're the only person on it. 00:20:25.287 --> 00:20:27.477 You need to really have those skills as well. 00:20:28.404 --> 00:20:32.331 Duke: Yeah, I mean really what else would you be if you are your own 00:20:32.331 --> 00:20:33.831 face for your own set of services? 00:20:33.836 --> 00:20:34.191 Right? 00:20:34.386 --> 00:20:34.686 CJ: Right. 00:20:35.091 --> 00:20:36.561 Duke: who else flies cover for you? 00:20:36.561 --> 00:20:38.571 who else like stands in front of the customer for you? 00:20:38.571 --> 00:20:41.421 So if you're an indie consultant, especially one who has like the prime 00:20:41.421 --> 00:20:45.337 relationship with the customer, you are basically your own engagement manager. 00:20:45.751 --> 00:20:46.241 CJ: Yeah. 00:20:46.301 --> 00:20:47.501 Duke: that is for sure. 00:20:47.931 --> 00:20:53.681 the second place where we see the most overlap is, project managers, and I've 00:20:53.681 --> 00:20:58.451 always been of the opinion that the best project managers are natural engagement 00:20:58.451 --> 00:21:02.891 managers, and the best engagement managers are also project managers. 00:21:02.891 --> 00:21:06.971 Just get those two skills aligned to the same person and magic happens. 00:21:07.504 --> 00:21:07.714 CJ: Yeah. 00:21:07.714 --> 00:21:10.597 I mean we, as we've just discussed, right, there is a little bit of, 00:21:10.597 --> 00:21:14.037 overlap there, just naturally, because they're both managing. 00:21:14.662 --> 00:21:17.027 Large swaths of the, of the project. 00:21:17.027 --> 00:21:22.124 And so I do agree that, you best, EMS are going to be good PMs, right. 00:21:22.304 --> 00:21:27.374 Though I will say that I'm not sure that I want my EM being a PM because 00:21:27.379 --> 00:21:31.124 I think they're far too valuable to be managing the nuances of a 00:21:31.124 --> 00:21:33.044 project like a project manager is. 00:21:34.064 --> 00:21:34.184 Duke: Hmm. 00:21:34.534 --> 00:21:36.234 I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on that. 00:21:36.504 --> 00:21:36.984 CJ: Oh, yeah. 00:21:39.114 --> 00:21:43.764 Duke: And I would recall back to the episode we did with Pat Fuller, 00:21:44.224 --> 00:21:44.714 CJ: Okay. 00:21:44.937 --> 00:21:46.797 Duke: we're gonna put a link to that in the description below. 00:21:46.827 --> 00:21:47.817 Everybody take a shot. 00:21:49.697 --> 00:21:55.181 , but Pat Fuller is, me, the pinnacle of both sides in one person, 00:21:55.361 --> 00:21:57.431 like exquisite project manager. 00:21:57.554 --> 00:22:01.364 has everything laid out in Excel, nose down to the day when all this stuff 00:22:01.364 --> 00:22:05.001 has to get done by, where she's getting the resources from, how much she's 00:22:05.001 --> 00:22:09.891 spent on it, how much she has extra for wiggle room, all that pm goodness. 00:22:10.461 --> 00:22:13.731 But she also does it from an engagement management perspective because she is 00:22:13.731 --> 00:22:15.711 the face of this thing getting done. 00:22:16.371 --> 00:22:19.311 She just understands the structure of the work to get it done. 00:22:19.881 --> 00:22:23.574 And, Pat's the kind of person where the C-suite, someone from the C-suite 00:22:23.574 --> 00:22:29.197 calls her up, cio, c o o, Hey Pat, take care of this 15 million thing for us, 00:22:29.544 --> 00:22:30.684 make it go faster. 00:22:30.771 --> 00:22:31.311 The end. 00:22:32.751 --> 00:22:33.561 And, uh, 00:22:33.941 --> 00:22:34.431 CJ: Yeah. 00:22:34.461 --> 00:22:35.001 Duke: you know what I mean? 00:22:35.001 --> 00:22:39.076 And she's got, all of the, authority to change the parameters of the project. 00:22:39.379 --> 00:22:40.849 or the parameters for success. 00:22:40.849 --> 00:22:45.329 She's has the project plan, she made it herself, so she knows it implicitly and 00:22:45.334 --> 00:22:49.169 she's got that confidence in charisma and the cool under calm and the, the narrative 00:22:49.169 --> 00:22:51.029 building and the hyper organization. 00:22:51.256 --> 00:22:54.041 and, and she just talks about that on top of all the other things, on 00:22:54.041 --> 00:22:56.381 top of schedule, cost, and scope. 00:22:56.802 --> 00:23:02.267 CJ: Absolutely true, and I totally agree with you that Pat Fuller can , be my em n 00:23:02.267 --> 00:23:09.257 pm any of the week twice on Sunday, there are very few Pat Fullers in this world. 00:23:10.367 --> 00:23:11.597 Duke: That I will give you. 00:23:12.882 --> 00:23:17.052 CJ: and I think, unless you have the skillset of a path Fuller, then I do 00:23:17.052 --> 00:23:22.392 think that I want my, em more focused on managing the engagement as a whole and 00:23:22.397 --> 00:23:28.362 make sure that the success is communicated versus, um, maybe managing some of 00:23:28.362 --> 00:23:32.052 the nuances and, and ensuring that my developers are building stories on time. 00:23:32.706 --> 00:23:32.826 Duke: Hmm. 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:37.149 CJ: I want them holistically engaged narrative as, as you mentioned, 00:23:37.149 --> 00:23:40.209 like, you know, a couple minutes ago, The narrative, I think is much more 00:23:40.209 --> 00:23:43.379 important then the stories, , are, that are getting built, , it's why we're 00:23:43.379 --> 00:23:45.809 building the stories, how we're building the stories, and what we're gonna 00:23:45.809 --> 00:23:47.339 accomplish by building those stories. 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:49.679 Somebody's gotta spin their yarn, right? 00:23:49.679 --> 00:23:53.069 And somebody's gotta build those decks and have those meetings with management 00:23:53.069 --> 00:23:56.169 to make sure that they all, come away feeling, feeling warm and fuzzy. 00:23:56.439 --> 00:23:59.499 And you can't do that, right if you're always making sure that 00:23:59.499 --> 00:24:00.909 everybody's managing to the date. 00:24:01.141 --> 00:24:05.461 it's your job to when, when they didn't manage the date or they're, 00:24:05.731 --> 00:24:09.181 or they're, uh, you know, somebody should be telling you, Hey, we're not 00:24:09.181 --> 00:24:10.711 going to be able to meet the date. 00:24:10.981 --> 00:24:11.221 Right? 00:24:11.226 --> 00:24:14.671 And that's when you gotta go do the em thing with the client, right? 00:24:14.671 --> 00:24:16.621 Like, oh crap, all right, so we're not gonna let me get it 00:24:16.621 --> 00:24:18.001 out in front of this, right? 00:24:18.001 --> 00:24:21.782 And so now you gotta send a narrative on why you didn't, you're not 00:24:21.787 --> 00:24:24.211 gonna hit the date, and how you're going to correct for it and why it 00:24:24.211 --> 00:24:27.091 should, you shouldn't be alarmed and why it's not a big deal, right? 00:24:27.271 --> 00:24:32.041 I want my em to be able to do that quickly without having to deal with the nuance 00:24:32.071 --> 00:24:37.151 of whether or not this is, , potentially a misstate or maybe they're, you know, 00:24:37.151 --> 00:24:40.474 folks are a little hypersensitive or, worried about, you know what I mean? 00:24:40.504 --> 00:24:43.444 Like worried about like whether or not this is real or make belief. 00:24:43.774 --> 00:24:44.044 Right. 00:24:44.044 --> 00:24:48.664 I just, I want them working on the narrative in case it is real. 00:24:49.014 --> 00:24:52.704 Duke: I guess where it's like I, I idealize 'em in the same body because as 00:24:52.709 --> 00:24:57.827 soon as we discover that this thing is gonna go off the rails, then go broker 00:24:57.827 --> 00:25:02.348 the reconciliation with the customer and not have this scenario where it's like, 00:25:02.717 --> 00:25:05.057 okay, the PM now has to tell the EM. 00:25:05.537 --> 00:25:08.252 That this is off the rails and then the EM goes to the customer. 00:25:08.576 --> 00:25:12.956 if those can both be in the same body and they have such an overlap of skillset. 00:25:13.676 --> 00:25:14.516 Anyway, sorry. 00:25:14.516 --> 00:25:14.576 I 00:25:15.456 --> 00:25:16.336 CJ: No, no, I mean, 00:25:16.406 --> 00:25:17.846 Duke: to disagree, I guess, but 00:25:18.406 --> 00:25:19.756 CJ: no, I'm, I'm with you on that too. 00:25:19.886 --> 00:25:22.216 I, I mean, like, I get where you're coming from on it, right. 00:25:22.216 --> 00:25:25.399 And I think, I guess if it's a smaller project, then it makes sense to have 00:25:25.399 --> 00:25:27.019 both of those folks in the same body. 00:25:27.319 --> 00:25:31.136 But I do think on the larger project, I want my em separate, I want them managing 00:25:31.136 --> 00:25:35.422 fires and, spinning narratives, you know, throughout the entirety of the, of the 00:25:35.422 --> 00:25:37.732 project that not necessarily focused on. 00:25:37.797 --> 00:25:39.897 ensuring that the stories get delivered on time. 00:25:40.167 --> 00:25:40.377 Duke: Okay. 00:25:40.377 --> 00:25:42.317 Well we got a few minutes, more time. 00:25:42.704 --> 00:25:46.857 so I thought maybe what we would do is talk about If we have listeners 00:25:46.857 --> 00:25:50.148 or at the start of their Service Now career and they say, oh, EMS for 00:25:50.153 --> 00:25:52.047 me, what do you gotta keep in mind? 00:25:52.436 --> 00:25:52.766 CJ: Huh? 00:25:53.336 --> 00:25:53.696 Yeah. 00:25:53.726 --> 00:25:54.146 Okay. 00:25:54.169 --> 00:25:57.139 if you know you're at the, starting your career and you think, man, I really want 00:25:57.139 --> 00:26:00.822 to be an em, one of the first things you need to do right, is to underst to 00:26:00.822 --> 00:26:03.852 understand like that skillset, like we talked about, that you need to bring to 00:26:03.852 --> 00:26:07.632 the table when you are an em, that means you gotta be really confident and, and 00:26:07.632 --> 00:26:09.312 comfortable talking in front of people. 00:26:09.317 --> 00:26:14.262 People who have a lot of power, typically in a situation, Like, you gotta realize 00:26:14.472 --> 00:26:16.362 that you're going to be the, the face. 00:26:16.687 --> 00:26:20.071 Right of a deployment, talking to the other face, of the folks who 00:26:20.071 --> 00:26:21.241 are asking you to do the thing. 00:26:21.241 --> 00:26:24.617 Typically that face is gonna have a, degree of power in the situation. 00:26:24.617 --> 00:26:27.497 So you have to, you know, be confident in those spaces. 00:26:28.187 --> 00:26:31.667 Like, that's one of the things, you know, probably, maybe the, maybe the number 00:26:31.667 --> 00:26:33.377 one thing from my, from a perspective, 00:26:33.902 --> 00:26:38.072 Duke: I'd also wager that engagement manager is not something that you 00:26:38.072 --> 00:26:42.536 walk into, you have to have done something of a similar scale. 00:26:42.851 --> 00:26:43.571 CJ: Sales. 00:26:44.276 --> 00:26:44.906 Duke: Yeah. 00:26:45.176 --> 00:26:45.386 Yeah. 00:26:45.386 --> 00:26:48.926 But you, you, I think you would've had to have been in charge of some kind of 00:26:48.926 --> 00:26:54.469 like multi-person objective, where it You are the person who is going to, face 00:26:54.469 --> 00:26:59.449 the fire if the thing fails and there's 20 other people working on it with you. 00:26:59.922 --> 00:27:00.337 CJ: I can see 00:27:00.352 --> 00:27:03.352 Duke: don't, I don't think you go from school to engagement manager. 00:27:03.667 --> 00:27:04.387 CJ: Yeah. 00:27:04.597 --> 00:27:04.927 Yeah. 00:27:04.927 --> 00:27:05.887 No, I, I agree. 00:27:05.887 --> 00:27:10.387 I I think you do need some real world experience and, doing some things right 00:27:10.387 --> 00:27:12.097 before you can be an engagement manager. 00:27:12.097 --> 00:27:12.787 Absolutely. 00:27:12.922 --> 00:27:16.697 But I do think sales is one of the places that I've seen successful 00:27:16.697 --> 00:27:18.287 engagement managers come from, right? 00:27:18.287 --> 00:27:21.137 Because it's sort of like a similar skillset, right? 00:27:21.142 --> 00:27:23.567 Like you want confidence, you know, charisma. 00:27:23.867 --> 00:27:25.457 You want to be able to tell the story. 00:27:25.457 --> 00:27:25.712 Three, right? 00:27:25.712 --> 00:27:26.852 You need to be organized. 00:27:26.852 --> 00:27:30.752 You need to be, really, um, confident in situations where you don't 00:27:30.752 --> 00:27:32.672 necessarily have all the power, right? 00:27:32.672 --> 00:27:35.772 And other people do,, and you gotta be able to push too because you're 00:27:35.772 --> 00:27:37.332 trying to close the deal, right? 00:27:37.332 --> 00:27:39.522 Like when you're in sales situation, you're trying to close the deal. 00:27:39.672 --> 00:27:43.272 When you're in em, you're really trying to get your client to buy your narrative. 00:27:43.807 --> 00:27:43.987 Right. 00:27:43.987 --> 00:27:47.497 And so that, so that they really believe that everything's going, 00:27:47.497 --> 00:27:49.387 and that, that's not to say you should be tricking them, right. 00:27:49.387 --> 00:27:50.047 But you know what I mean? 00:27:50.047 --> 00:27:51.877 Like you're selling a narrative. 00:27:51.882 --> 00:27:53.977 You want the client to buy into it, right? 00:27:53.977 --> 00:27:55.657 And that's just like sales, in my opinion. 00:27:55.657 --> 00:27:56.497 You want to close the deal. 00:27:56.497 --> 00:27:58.657 You want to get the client to, to buy the narrative. 00:27:58.897 --> 00:28:01.897 So I, so I see, you've got some, some successful year 00:28:02.137 --> 00:28:03.967 years in sales under your belt. 00:28:04.207 --> 00:28:07.587 I think a transition to em is probably, not too hard. 00:28:08.257 --> 00:28:13.327 Duke: And I'd say if you had informal project management experience or 00:28:13.567 --> 00:28:17.017 perhaps you have a military career where you had command, right. 00:28:17.852 --> 00:28:18.132 CJ: a goal. 00:28:18.132 --> 00:28:18.612 Yeah. 00:28:18.797 --> 00:28:20.027 Duke: That that would be a real, 00:28:20.222 --> 00:28:20.642 CJ: Yep. 00:28:20.924 --> 00:28:25.621 Duke: but more generally if it's many, many people, except you get all the 00:28:25.621 --> 00:28:30.421 blame if it all goes wrong, I think is like, is the fingerprint for a good ya? 00:28:30.916 --> 00:28:32.866 CJ: So if your husband to a family. 00:28:33.901 --> 00:28:34.951 Duke: Well, you know what I'm saying? 00:28:34.951 --> 00:28:37.201 Like, you know that expression like if you wanna get something done, 00:28:37.201 --> 00:28:40.081 give it to a busy person because they just, there's certain people who 00:28:40.081 --> 00:28:42.541 just figure out ways to get it done. 00:28:42.541 --> 00:28:44.191 Figure out ways to success. 00:28:44.731 --> 00:28:45.001 CJ: Right. 00:28:45.286 --> 00:28:47.236 Duke: and you kind of gotta be one of those people. 00:28:47.444 --> 00:28:47.834 CJ: yeah. 00:28:47.834 --> 00:28:48.584 Agree, right? 00:28:48.794 --> 00:28:51.044 Like there's, all right, you gotta be constantly pushing, right? 00:28:51.044 --> 00:28:51.854 you can't be scared. 00:28:51.854 --> 00:28:54.534 There's no room for fear, when you're an em, right? 00:28:54.684 --> 00:28:57.354 And it goes back to that, that confidence and charisma, right? 00:28:57.354 --> 00:28:57.624 Like you. 00:28:57.699 --> 00:28:59.829 Duke: coolness under pressure is just like, okay, I'm, yeah. 00:28:59.829 --> 00:29:00.609 I'm getting yelled at. 00:29:00.609 --> 00:29:01.299 They're super mad. 00:29:01.299 --> 00:29:03.309 I can see that they're just, you know, and they're yelling at me. 00:29:04.344 --> 00:29:05.124 CJ: Right, right. 00:29:05.564 --> 00:29:07.614 So, so, so it's like, okay, so what do we do? 00:29:07.764 --> 00:29:08.004 Right? 00:29:08.004 --> 00:29:08.544 Like, what do we do? 00:29:08.549 --> 00:29:12.174 All right, so the one thing we don't do right is get mad and yell back. 00:29:12.879 --> 00:29:13.539 Duke: Oh, for sure. 00:29:13.539 --> 00:29:13.749 Yeah. 00:29:13.749 --> 00:29:16.029 That would be, it's called that Plan Z. 00:29:16.539 --> 00:29:17.529 CJ: Yeah, exactly. 00:29:17.529 --> 00:29:17.829 Right. 00:29:17.829 --> 00:29:20.709 But if you don't have the experience in these situations, maybe that 00:29:20.709 --> 00:29:21.909 is your first impulse, right. 00:29:21.909 --> 00:29:24.459 Is to get mad and yell back and that's not what you want to do. 00:29:24.639 --> 00:29:24.879 Right. 00:29:24.879 --> 00:29:30.369 So, yeah, I mean the, some accountability and, and situations previously, I do 00:29:30.369 --> 00:29:34.852 think is an important skill to have when thinking about coming in em. 00:29:35.882 --> 00:29:37.866 Duke: At least from my perspective, and I've, been on 00:29:37.866 --> 00:29:39.546 stuff that hasn't gone so well. 00:29:39.636 --> 00:29:40.056 You know what I mean? 00:29:40.056 --> 00:29:41.106 I can, I can admit that. 00:29:41.106 --> 00:29:44.556 I think if you're not em and you want to know how EMS do it, I would 00:29:44.561 --> 00:29:46.201 say you gotta shut off that part. 00:29:46.201 --> 00:29:47.351 That's gonna take it personal. 00:29:47.356 --> 00:29:47.641 Right. 00:29:47.821 --> 00:29:48.901 it's not personal. 00:29:49.104 --> 00:29:54.354 They just have a lot of emotional energy behind the outcome and. 00:29:54.569 --> 00:29:55.979 Just let them go. 00:29:56.019 --> 00:29:57.729 don't try and calm them down 00:29:57.927 --> 00:29:58.417 CJ: Yeah. 00:29:58.592 --> 00:30:02.132 Duke: and certainly by interrupting them, I, I'd say like, listen, 00:30:02.137 --> 00:30:04.642 intently is strategy number one. 00:30:04.642 --> 00:30:05.422 Listen intently. 00:30:05.422 --> 00:30:07.792 If they're in a point where they're like yelling and very, 00:30:07.797 --> 00:30:10.382 very frustrated and take notes. 00:30:11.612 --> 00:30:14.282 Because if they're giving it to you once, when they're angry, 00:30:14.282 --> 00:30:16.766 like they won't appreciate asking you to repeat themselves, right? 00:30:16.766 --> 00:30:18.476 So just take notes as they're talking. 00:30:19.031 --> 00:30:20.771 And make sure that they feel heard. 00:30:20.771 --> 00:30:24.834 I think once they're, once they feel heard, that's step one to getting them, 00:30:25.014 --> 00:30:26.134 CJ: Man there, there's just. 00:30:26.194 --> 00:30:28.204 Duke: amicable to to, to how you're gonna steer it. 00:30:28.234 --> 00:30:28.804 You know what I mean? 00:30:29.194 --> 00:30:29.674 CJ: Yeah. 00:30:30.004 --> 00:30:32.944 And the, the more we talk about this, right, it just, it goes back 00:30:32.944 --> 00:30:36.304 and I think we did a, an episode or two on soft skills, right? 00:30:36.304 --> 00:30:41.364 And it just really, underscores for me, like important, these soft skills 00:30:41.364 --> 00:30:42.744 are as you advance your career. 00:30:43.259 --> 00:30:46.199 Right, because I don't think em is like an inch level career, 00:30:46.469 --> 00:30:47.999 But when you start to, right. 00:30:48.179 --> 00:30:50.781 You know, but when you start to look at these steps, right? 00:30:50.961 --> 00:30:54.647 Something like independent consultant, em and things of that nature 00:30:54.677 --> 00:30:56.117 are ServiceNow architect, right? 00:30:56.204 --> 00:30:57.524 these are spots where. 00:30:57.819 --> 00:31:01.899 Those soft skills really do come into play and people expect a little 00:31:02.019 --> 00:31:05.949 bit more than just you being able to recite the technical literature, right. 00:31:05.949 --> 00:31:09.214 that you re remember, like, you know, yeah, I can, can, can you write a glide 00:31:09.214 --> 00:31:10.594 query, you know, with your eyes closed? 00:31:10.594 --> 00:31:11.104 Sure. 00:31:11.109 --> 00:31:12.274 But a lot of people can do that. 00:31:12.274 --> 00:31:15.499 and the CEO that you're talking to who doesn't really care, right? 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:18.119 They, they wanna know how, how is what's in it for me? 00:31:18.439 --> 00:31:20.659 how is the thing that you're about to do that I'm asking you to do 00:31:20.664 --> 00:31:21.979 that I'm about to pay you for? 00:31:22.249 --> 00:31:22.459 Right. 00:31:22.459 --> 00:31:28.216 Like, gonna make my life better and easier and tell me in three minutes, And, and 00:31:28.221 --> 00:31:31.866 so I, I do really think that those off skills like the folks who have them and 00:31:31.866 --> 00:31:35.949 the folks who don't write like that, that schism really starts to show itself as 00:31:35.949 --> 00:31:37.699 you start to, um, elevate your career. 00:31:38.156 --> 00:31:41.336 Duke: I just love the fact that you said soft skills too, because if there's ever a 00:31:41.336 --> 00:31:43.616 role that was almost entirely soft skills. 00:31:44.321 --> 00:31:44.741 CJ: Yeah, 00:31:45.011 --> 00:31:48.611 Duke: You know, unless you take my advice and say a good pm a good EM is also a 00:31:48.611 --> 00:31:50.651 good pm, then you need the hard skills of, 00:31:51.521 --> 00:31:52.761 CJ: a project management, right? 00:31:52.761 --> 00:31:53.041 Yeah. 00:31:53.236 --> 00:31:55.154 Duke: management, all the artifacts and whatnot. 00:31:55.154 --> 00:32:00.121 But man, but I have seen EMS that aren't PMs and they're just all, 00:32:00.121 --> 00:32:03.871 that person, that person everybody loves to love, can't stay mad at 'em, 00:32:03.984 --> 00:32:07.194 inspires confidence even though they're not the ones turning the wrenches. 00:32:07.824 --> 00:32:08.274 CJ: Yeah. 00:32:08.439 --> 00:32:12.936 , And, as these, um, projects, as the spend, starts to, um, ratchet up, right? 00:32:12.941 --> 00:32:15.799 Like, the job of that engagement manager just gets more and more, I. 00:32:16.659 --> 00:32:17.049 Right. 00:32:17.049 --> 00:32:22.099 Because if you're spending 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 million on a, on a project, the 00:32:22.099 --> 00:32:27.319 person who can spend that narrative and keep everybody focused and calm and 00:32:27.324 --> 00:32:30.339 confident in the project is worth Right. 00:32:30.419 --> 00:32:32.179 Ament to that project. 00:32:32.962 --> 00:32:36.449 Because the one thing that will start to destabilize a project 00:32:36.454 --> 00:32:37.859 is a lack of confidence in it. 00:32:38.372 --> 00:32:40.262 Duke: And that always starts somewhere, right? 00:32:40.612 --> 00:32:41.002 CJ: Yeah. 00:32:41.356 --> 00:32:43.516 Duke: it starts with maybe a communication breakdown. 00:32:43.516 --> 00:32:48.052 Like how come all of our devs are always somewhere else in different time 00:32:48.052 --> 00:32:49.462 zones and we can never talk to them, 00:32:50.062 --> 00:32:50.452 CJ: Right. 00:32:50.572 --> 00:32:53.609 Duke: figure out what went wrong on their side, And that could be something where 00:32:53.609 --> 00:32:56.759 I'm still happy for a little while until it starts getting really frustrating. 00:32:57.389 --> 00:33:00.456 CJ: Yeah, exactly And it could just be one thing that takes it from 00:33:00.456 --> 00:33:02.256 happy to frustrating too, right? 00:33:02.256 --> 00:33:05.832 If the thing is big enough, and you need somebody to come in and 00:33:06.072 --> 00:33:07.752 you know, narrative that away. 00:33:08.176 --> 00:33:11.326 or somebody to come in with the authority to recognize, well, someone who could 00:33:11.326 --> 00:33:15.076 come in and recognize whether or not this is a situation where something needs 00:33:15.076 --> 00:33:18.816 to be done or someone needs to listen, that's step number one, Because there 00:33:18.821 --> 00:33:22.506 are situations where your client is gonna be upset, but this is just a listening 00:33:22.511 --> 00:33:25.746 situation where they want to yell at somebody and they really just want to 00:33:25.751 --> 00:33:27.196 vent, their trouble with the project. 00:33:27.196 --> 00:33:27.346 Right? 00:33:27.346 --> 00:33:28.786 And you're gonna listen to some of those things. 00:33:28.786 --> 00:33:31.366 You're gonna hear those things and you're gonna calm 'em down, right? 00:33:31.366 --> 00:33:34.006 And you're gonna tell 'em everything's gonna be fine and they're gonna be happy, 00:33:34.206 --> 00:33:37.896 But then there are other situations where you need to do something and 00:33:38.016 --> 00:33:40.386 that them needs to be able to tell the difference between the two. 00:33:40.779 --> 00:33:44.919 is this a situation where we need to lose a couple of points of profit in order to 00:33:44.919 --> 00:33:49.509 move development back on shore because this client's gonna walk otherwise, right? 00:33:49.509 --> 00:33:54.329 Your em needs to know, that person is going to be the person who, who, reports 00:33:54.329 --> 00:33:56.146 back internally and says, Hey, right? 00:33:56.146 --> 00:33:59.776 we need to lose a couple points right here and we need to bring, we need to bring 00:33:59.776 --> 00:34:03.286 development back internally and need our all stars on this thing for two weeks. 00:34:03.764 --> 00:34:05.984 and that, and again, right, that's that trust thing that 00:34:05.984 --> 00:34:07.124 we talked about earlier, right? 00:34:07.124 --> 00:34:10.226 Like the internals are going to, uh, internal folks are going to trust this 00:34:10.226 --> 00:34:14.349 person and give them that without a, without a, uh, without blinking, right? 00:34:14.354 --> 00:34:17.229 Because they know that this, that's the skillset that they hire. 00:34:17.511 --> 00:34:18.051 Duke: All right. 00:34:18.056 --> 00:34:18.631 Wow. 00:34:21.376 --> 00:34:22.826 CJ: I mean, that got good at the end. 00:34:22.891 --> 00:34:23.311 Duke: Yeah. 00:34:25.336 --> 00:34:28.546 Behind the camera people every behind the microphone. 00:34:28.546 --> 00:34:31.006 Corey and I were like, how are we gonna fill 30 minutes 00:34:31.006 --> 00:34:33.976 on, on engagement managers? 00:34:33.981 --> 00:34:36.286 And here we are at like, uh, 40 minutes of record. 00:34:36.376 --> 00:34:36.706 So, 00:34:36.992 --> 00:34:40.472 CJ: Well, duke, episode 82, and we still don't have it. 00:34:40.952 --> 00:34:42.272 Still don't have a outro. 00:34:42.422 --> 00:34:43.232 Duke: ah, someday. 00:34:45.182 --> 00:34:45.422 All right. 00:34:45.422 --> 00:34:45.812 Thanks folks. 00:34:45.812 --> 00:34:46.532 We'll see you on the next one.