1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,667 < Intro > 2 00:00:05,667 --> 00:00:08,220 – Hello and welcome to another episode of Count Me In. 3 00:00:08,220 --> 00:00:12,000 Today we're diving headfirst into the complex and ever-evolving 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,500 world of cryptocurrencies. 5 00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:16,834 We're excited to have Jason Cozens with us. 6 00:00:16,834 --> 00:00:21,667 The CEO and founder of Glint,  a global fintech platform. 7 00:00:21,667 --> 00:00:25,000 He's an expert in cryptocurrencies and alternative currencies, 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,000 and he'll be sharing his extensive knowledge 9 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,334 about the current state of the market. 10 00:00:29,334 --> 00:00:30,840 Why cryptocurrencies exist, 11 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,667 in the first place, and their inherent risks. 12 00:00:33,667 --> 00:00:35,640 He'll also shed light on the appeal of gold, 13 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,667 as a stable, risk-off asset,  and how it's been modernized 14 00:00:39,667 --> 00:00:42,667 for everyday transaction  with technologies like Glint. 15 00:00:42,667 --> 00:00:45,167 So if you're curious about  the state of cryptocurrencies, 16 00:00:45,167 --> 00:00:46,833 or the power of gold, as an alternative, 17 00:00:46,833 --> 00:00:49,667 this episode is a treasure trove of information. 18 00:00:49,667 --> 00:00:51,000 Let's dive in. 19 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:56,333 < Music > 20 00:00:56,333 --> 00:00:57,660 Jason, I just want to thank you so much 21 00:00:57,660 --> 00:00:58,833 for coming on the podcast today. 22 00:00:58,833 --> 00:01:02,160 Really excited to have your expertise around cryptocurrencies 23 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,667 and alternative currencies, in the market. 24 00:01:04,667 --> 00:01:07,920 And maybe we can start off by  discussing cryptocurrencies 25 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,800 and the state of that market,  as it stands right now. 26 00:01:11,167 --> 00:01:16,167 – Yes, sure, well, I mean, before  we start looking at exactly 27 00:01:16,167 --> 00:01:17,400 the state of the market, now. 28 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:18,960 I think it's also important to understand 29 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:20,580 why the market even exists 30 00:01:20,580 --> 00:01:23,166 and, then, just to touch on that for a second. 31 00:01:23,166 --> 00:01:27,000 Why do we even have cryptocurrencies? 32 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,360 My movement into alternative  currencies started in 2008 33 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,520 like a lot of people's journeys did for this. 34 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,333 Where they realize that banks are not risk-free deposits of funds. 35 00:01:36,420 --> 00:01:38,500 When you put your money in the bank, it ceases to be yours. 36 00:01:38,500 --> 00:01:42,120 That money is put at risk, and it is lent out, 37 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:43,440 it's a liability of the bank. 38 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,000 And that's a problem for people and a problem for businesses 39 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,166 that have money, and want to be able to put it into those banks. 40 00:01:48,166 --> 00:01:53,666 And, of course, we get all kinds of insurances from the FDIC et cetera. 41 00:01:53,666 --> 00:01:56,220 But, at some point,  they're going to change the rules, 42 00:01:56,220 --> 00:01:59,280 and they've already passed legislation  called bail-in rather than bailout. 43 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,620 Which means that when, next time, 44 00:02:01,620 --> 00:02:05,499 there's a banking crisis, instead of  the government's bailing out the banks.   45 00:02:05,499 --> 00:02:08,833 They might say to, actually, "We're  going to do bail-in this time." 46 00:02:08,833 --> 00:02:10,999 Which means that if you've got a  significant amount of money, 47 00:02:10,999 --> 00:02:13,380 in the bank, they swap that for shares in the bank. 48 00:02:13,380 --> 00:02:15,540 Which you may or may not get  back in a few years' time, 49 00:02:15,540 --> 00:02:17,460 and that's what they did in Cyprus, they tried it. 50 00:02:17,460 --> 00:02:18,600 They've passed the legislation. 51 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,666 So it's something we've  all got to be cognizant of. 52 00:02:21,666 --> 00:02:26,499 And, then, of course, inflation, and very few commentators 53 00:02:26,499 --> 00:02:29,700 are talking about one of the biggest drivers for inflation, 54 00:02:29,700 --> 00:02:31,499 of course, is money printing. 55 00:02:31,499 --> 00:02:38,166 And inflation is now rip-roaring through the economy, it's affecting individuals. 56 00:02:38,166 --> 00:02:39,833 It's affecting businesses. 57 00:02:39,833 --> 00:02:42,360 I thought it was bad back in 2008, 58 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,999 when governments are trying  to keep it at around 2%. 59 00:02:44,999 --> 00:02:48,840 Over my lifetime, the dollar  has lost more than 85% 60 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,060 of its purchasing power,  let's just think about that. 61 00:02:51,060 --> 00:02:54,240 85% of its purchasing power, and that was before actually 62 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,832 the surge in inflation, I calculated that. 63 00:02:56,832 --> 00:02:59,666 And, so, there's a need or people have been looking for something 64 00:02:59,666 --> 00:03:01,680 to hedge against systemic risks. 65 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:02,666 They've been looking for something 66 00:03:02,666 --> 00:03:05,832 to hedge against inflation. 67 00:03:05,832 --> 00:03:08,040 And, also, generally speaking, 68 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:09,832 the financial system is getting better 69 00:03:09,832 --> 00:03:12,060 at payments and cross-border payments. 70 00:03:12,060 --> 00:03:15,780 But, again, they're looking for  efficiencies with that, too. 71 00:03:15,780 --> 00:03:18,332 So that's why we're in this space. 72 00:03:18,332 --> 00:03:22,332 Innovations around Bitcoin, model a lot on gold 73 00:03:22,380 --> 00:03:24,332 and other types of cryptocurrencies now, 74 00:03:24,332 --> 00:03:26,832 like Ethereum and even stablecoins, 75 00:03:26,832 --> 00:03:32,999 of what created what was a $3 trillion market. 76 00:03:32,999 --> 00:03:34,920 And, obviously, what we've seen this year 77 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,940 is that $3 trillion market completely collapsed 78 00:03:38,940 --> 00:03:41,832 to below a trillion dollars. 79 00:03:41,940 --> 00:03:44,460 Which is a huge drop for anybody involved 80 00:03:44,460 --> 00:03:46,165 in the cryptocurrency industry. 81 00:03:46,165 --> 00:03:49,680 But, yes, one trillion is still  better than the kick in the teeth, 82 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,665 and it's a significant industry, still, and I don't see it going away. 83 00:03:53,665 --> 00:03:56,832 And there's been a huge amount  of money invested in that. 84 00:03:56,832 --> 00:03:59,832 But we all know it's been volatile. 85 00:03:59,832 --> 00:04:04,332 We've seen that volatility on a weekly, sometimes, daily basis. 86 00:04:04,332 --> 00:04:07,440 We've seen huge swings in the value of Bitcoin. 87 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,832 For instance, it's gone down from $65,000 88 00:04:11,832 --> 00:04:18,832 down to, I think, we're currently at about $17,000, something like that. 89 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,960 And, again, that volatility is huge.   90 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,320 But previous to that, of  course, we saw huge gains. 91 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,998 I mean, it went from three or $4,000, 92 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,165 over a few years up to $65,000. 93 00:04:32,220 --> 00:04:35,498 So you can see the attraction and why people got involved in that. 94 00:04:35,498 --> 00:04:39,832 Hey, it's this fantastic growth story, 95 00:04:39,832 --> 00:04:41,498 and we can handle the volatility 96 00:04:41,498 --> 00:04:44,340 in the belief that that growth story is going to continue forever.   97 00:04:44,340 --> 00:04:45,998 But, I think, what happened 98 00:04:45,998 --> 00:04:48,831 when Russia invaded Ukraine was really telling. 99 00:04:48,831 --> 00:04:53,160 It was the time when we saw  that, actually, cryptocurrencies 100 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,498 are definitely what I consider a risk on asset. 101 00:04:56,498 --> 00:04:59,640 They're a speculative asset  that may or may not work, 102 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:01,998 may or may not stand the test of time. 103 00:05:01,998 --> 00:05:03,780 There's lots of optimism around it 104 00:05:03,780 --> 00:05:07,498 and, certainly, lots of ideas around how it can benefit society. 105 00:05:07,620 --> 00:05:10,831 But it's very much still a risky asset, 106 00:05:10,831 --> 00:05:13,500 as opposed to say something about  other alternatives like gold, 107 00:05:13,500 --> 00:05:15,998 which are just considered slightly more boring, 108 00:05:15,998 --> 00:05:18,120 but risk-off assets and stuff.   109 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,420 So when Ukraine was invaded by Russia, 110 00:05:21,420 --> 00:05:24,480 then we saw the crypto price plummet, 111 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,280 and we saw the gold price go up, for instance. 112 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:29,580 But there are lots of advantages around this. 113 00:05:29,580 --> 00:05:31,680 Apart from even the hedging against inflation 114 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,140 and the hedging against the systemic risk, 115 00:05:34,140 --> 00:05:36,660 and the payments technology,  just generally speaking. 116 00:05:36,660 --> 00:05:39,998 The tech, the ability to program these currencies, 117 00:05:39,998 --> 00:05:42,300 is what's exciting a lot of people, isn't it? 118 00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:45,664 So I definitely think that crypto is here to stay. 119 00:05:45,664 --> 00:05:48,664 But we've all got to understand what it is and understand its nature. 120 00:05:49,164 --> 00:05:50,880 – Yes, we do have to understand what it is. 121 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,200 Because you don't know it, 122 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,100 it doesn't seem as solid as something  like holding money in your hands. 123 00:05:56,100 --> 00:05:57,300 But then we all know that money 124 00:05:57,300 --> 00:05:58,664 doesn't have any backing anymore. 125 00:05:58,664 --> 00:06:00,840 And, as you've already mentioned, the inflation 126 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:03,600 and the things with banks  can be can be risky, as well. 127 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,300 So as organizations are looking at 128 00:06:06,300 --> 00:06:07,997 to getting into alternative currencies, 129 00:06:07,997 --> 00:06:09,600 are there benefits that they can look at? 130 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,700 You've already mentioned a lot of risks, 131 00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:14,100 but there have got to be  benefits to getting into this.   132 00:06:14,497 --> 00:06:17,831 – Yes, there are huge ones, as I said. 133 00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:22,497 I mean, some alternatives do  protect against inflation. 134 00:06:22,497 --> 00:06:24,960 I mean, you can't get any  worse than fiat currency, 135 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,120 in my mind, when it comes to inflation. 136 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,980 I mean, it's the most  terrible product in the world, 137 00:06:31,980 --> 00:06:33,664 when it comes to maintaining its purchasing power. 138 00:06:33,664 --> 00:06:38,664 So companies, especially ones who are long-term, doing well, 139 00:06:38,664 --> 00:06:39,831 where they put that money, 140 00:06:39,831 --> 00:06:42,120 in order to maintain your purchasing power. 141 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,164 Whether you're a company or an individual, 142 00:06:44,164 --> 00:06:47,664 you're having to make risky investments. 143 00:06:47,664 --> 00:06:49,500 Just to make sure you're maintaining 144 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:51,960 your purchasing power of  what's on your balance sheet, 145 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:53,497 and that really, for me, is wrong. 146 00:06:53,830 --> 00:06:55,497 So we've all got to look for 147 00:06:55,497 --> 00:06:58,164 how alternatives can help us make that fight. 148 00:06:58,164 --> 00:07:00,480 And, as I said, transactions and payments, 149 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,664 I mean, a lot of people are using cryptocurrencies for payments, 150 00:07:04,664 --> 00:07:06,660 and it could be stable  coins as well, for instance. 151 00:07:06,660 --> 00:07:08,100 Although we've got to remind ourselves 152 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:11,497 that a stablecoin is still backed  by the inferior, in my mind. 153 00:07:11,497 --> 00:07:13,497 And current fiat currency is no different 154 00:07:13,497 --> 00:07:14,664 just because it's a stablecoin, 155 00:07:14,664 --> 00:07:17,330 it's still losing, its purchasing power over time. 156 00:07:17,330 --> 00:07:21,664 But at least it has the technology wrapper around it with a stablecoin.   157 00:07:21,664 --> 00:07:25,080 So using cryptocurrencies, whether it's Bitcoin, 158 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,120 or a stablecoin, to be able to move value 159 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,163 from one part of the world to another, 160 00:07:29,163 --> 00:07:31,163 obviously, there's growing use of that. 161 00:07:31,163 --> 00:07:34,830 There's trillions of dollars' worth  of transactions, now, happening 162 00:07:34,830 --> 00:07:38,400 and, sometimes, they're used for in real need. 163 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,330 People trying to get money out of difficult regulatory environments. 164 00:07:42,330 --> 00:07:43,860 People are worried in China now 165 00:07:43,860 --> 00:07:46,330 about what's going on with their premier, 166 00:07:46,380 --> 00:07:50,340 and is it a good business,  friendly place anymore or not? 167 00:07:50,340 --> 00:07:52,997 And even though they've banned cryptocurrency, 168 00:07:52,997 --> 00:07:54,840 over there, mining et cetera. 169 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:56,163 A lot of companies are still 170 00:07:56,163 --> 00:07:58,330 trying to use that to move money offshore. 171 00:07:58,330 --> 00:08:02,830 But, then, just genuinely, trying to move money quickly, 172 00:08:02,830 --> 00:08:04,497 and it can be used for that. 173 00:08:04,497 --> 00:08:08,497 So, yes, they're all the benefits that we're all trying to find. 174 00:08:08,497 --> 00:08:12,420 I would say, though, that the idea that 175 00:08:12,420 --> 00:08:14,280 it's a get rich quick thing, 176 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,330 you got to decide what business you're in. 177 00:08:16,380 --> 00:08:20,496 Are you in the business of making widgets or providing this service? 178 00:08:20,496 --> 00:08:23,330 Or you're in the business of using your hard-earned profits 179 00:08:23,330 --> 00:08:25,080 to speculate in markets? 180 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,330 I don't really see that as a benefit. 181 00:08:27,663 --> 00:08:29,330 – Yes, that is really tough 182 00:08:29,330 --> 00:08:32,520 as you're trying to weigh the benefits versus the... 183 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,900 So you discuss a lot about  gold as a risk-off asset. 184 00:08:36,900 --> 00:08:39,660 And if anybody's heard you talk, in the news, 185 00:08:39,660 --> 00:08:41,663 you talk a lot about the benefits of having gold. 186 00:08:41,663 --> 00:08:43,380 And maybe we can talk a little bit about that, 187 00:08:43,380 --> 00:08:46,200 and how can that benefit organizations, 188 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,180 or people, or individuals who are looking 189 00:08:48,180 --> 00:08:53,663 to have a more not-as-risky  assets in their portfolio. 190 00:08:53,663 --> 00:08:56,160 – Sure, well, I mean, gold is valued, globally, 191 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,329 by just about everybody on this planet. 192 00:08:58,329 --> 00:09:01,829 No matter what culture or region that you're from. 193 00:09:01,829 --> 00:09:04,663 No matter what demographic you're in, 194 00:09:04,663 --> 00:09:06,480 everybody understands the value of gold. 195 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,000 Because gold has been the ultimate store of value 196 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,280 for, literally, thousands of years. 197 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,996 And it has a proven track record in holding its purchasing power. 198 00:09:15,996 --> 00:09:18,720 I mean, in the time, as I said, the dollar, 199 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,550 and the pound, and the euro, et cetera 200 00:09:20,550 --> 00:09:24,329 had lost 85% of their purchasing  power over my lifetime. 201 00:09:24,329 --> 00:09:27,496 Gold's purchasing power went up by over 500%. 202 00:09:27,496 --> 00:09:31,662 And, in fact, it still buys you what it did 2000 years ago, 203 00:09:31,662 --> 00:09:34,662 never mind just 50. 204 00:09:34,662 --> 00:09:37,620 So there is nothing that compares with gold, 205 00:09:37,620 --> 00:09:40,162 when it comes to store of value. 206 00:09:40,162 --> 00:09:43,162 But, of course, what about the medium of exchange? 207 00:09:43,162 --> 00:09:45,240 And a lot of people say, 208 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,760 "Well, gold, it's a great store of value, 209 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:49,829 but it's a useless medium of exchange." 210 00:09:49,829 --> 00:09:53,160 You can't exactly pop down to your local supplier 211 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,080 and buy some goods with your gold. 212 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:56,100 You can't chip that off, 213 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:58,350 they're not going to accept the coins, et cetera. 214 00:09:58,350 --> 00:10:00,780 Well, actually people need to wake up. 215 00:10:00,780 --> 00:10:03,180 There are lots of changes in the space 216 00:10:03,180 --> 00:10:05,520 and, certainly, Glint has built technology 217 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,329 that allows gold to be used as money. 218 00:10:07,329 --> 00:10:09,829 So, for instance, in Glint's case, 219 00:10:09,829 --> 00:10:11,940 what we've done is built a kind of payments 220 00:10:11,940 --> 00:10:14,820 and trading technology,  that effectively allows you 221 00:10:14,820 --> 00:10:20,040 to diversify some of your  working capital into gold. 222 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,162 So you can have a Euro wallet, a dollar wallet, a pound wallet, 223 00:10:23,162 --> 00:10:24,360 and a gold wallet. 224 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,162 You can buy as little as a penny, 225 00:10:26,162 --> 00:10:28,500 or a million, $10 million worth. 226 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:30,960 We've fractionalized the ownership of that gold, 227 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,829 so it's easy to use it as money. 228 00:10:33,829 --> 00:10:36,162 And we've even implemented payment instruments 229 00:10:36,162 --> 00:10:39,540 that allow people; this is  a MasterCard, for instance, 230 00:10:39,540 --> 00:10:41,829 linked to a Glint account, 231 00:10:41,829 --> 00:10:44,460 that allows me to spend my gold in real time. 232 00:10:44,460 --> 00:10:45,995 We're the first company in the world 233 00:10:45,995 --> 00:10:48,720 to enable physical gold, real allocated gold, 234 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,662 that I own, to be used in  payments in real-time like that.   235 00:10:53,662 --> 00:10:56,162 But you do have to be careful, like a lot of these things. 236 00:10:56,162 --> 00:10:58,020 With the cryptocurrencies or with gold, 237 00:10:58,020 --> 00:10:59,580 you got to be careful of the nuances, 238 00:10:59,580 --> 00:11:00,780 some of that can be very important. 239 00:11:00,780 --> 00:11:03,662 So when you buy gold, you got to ask yourself, 240 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:04,740 what kind of gold are you buying? 241 00:11:04,740 --> 00:11:05,520 Are you buying real gold 242 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,162 or are you buying paper gold? 243 00:11:07,162 --> 00:11:09,000 Is the gold that you're buying the physical gold? 244 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,980 Is it allocated to you? 245 00:11:10,980 --> 00:11:12,300 Do you legally own it? 246 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:15,540 Or is it unallocated gold, which you, kind of, own 247 00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:17,880 but it can be lent out by the custodian. 248 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:19,662 You don't really want that really, do you? 249 00:11:19,662 --> 00:11:22,828 Because when the music stops, it might not be there. 250 00:11:22,828 --> 00:11:26,328 Or are you buying futures options, derivatives? 251 00:11:26,328 --> 00:11:28,662 Are you buying ETFs? 252 00:11:28,662 --> 00:11:30,240 Where you're buying a share in a fund, 253 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:31,995 which may or may not be backed by gold. 254 00:11:31,995 --> 00:11:34,995 And I believe, and what we've built Glint around is that 255 00:11:34,995 --> 00:11:37,495 you should own allocated gold, that's gold that you own, 256 00:11:37,500 --> 00:11:39,161 and it's no one else's liability. 257 00:11:40,161 --> 00:11:42,240 But, yes, we've built this system 258 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,100 that allows it to be used as everyday money.  259 00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:50,828 And, so, whether it is diversifying  your portfolio, your savings. 260 00:11:50,828 --> 00:11:52,800 Whether it's allowing some of your ready money 261 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,661 to be stored somewhere safe, 262 00:11:54,661 --> 00:11:56,495 protecting you from inflation, et cetera. 263 00:11:56,495 --> 00:11:59,520 Or whether it's diversifying  some of your working capital, 264 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,828 your balance sheet, if you're a company, 265 00:12:01,828 --> 00:12:04,661 then there are lots of reasons why you might want to own gold 266 00:12:05,161 --> 00:12:06,660 – So this isn't something that many people 267 00:12:06,660 --> 00:12:08,828 are talking about or saying at all. 268 00:12:08,828 --> 00:12:13,440 And as you were saying that it made me think of the old days 269 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,660 where gold was the standard. 270 00:12:15,660 --> 00:12:17,760 Where everybody wanted to get their hands on it. 271 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,328 You had the gold rush in  San Francisco, California, 272 00:12:20,328 --> 00:12:23,661 in the 1800s, and all of those things. 273 00:12:23,661 --> 00:12:26,994 How can you have gold as your backing 274 00:12:26,994 --> 00:12:29,328 and still be able to spend with it. 275 00:12:29,328 --> 00:12:33,328 Even you have your card and the ways you described, 276 00:12:33,328 --> 00:12:36,494 but it seems like it can still tank just like everything else, right? 277 00:12:36,494 --> 00:12:38,994 – Well, it's really important to understand that when things 278 00:12:38,994 --> 00:12:43,661 are priced in dollars, or pounds, for instance, in the UK, or in euros. 279 00:12:43,661 --> 00:12:46,328 When they're priced in that fiat currency, 280 00:12:46,328 --> 00:12:48,828 then the confidence in those fiat currencies 281 00:12:48,828 --> 00:12:52,494 can, of course, go up and down as well. 282 00:12:52,494 --> 00:12:56,327 So the confidence in the dollar is going up and down every day 283 00:12:56,327 --> 00:12:58,494 but generally down. 284 00:12:58,494 --> 00:13:00,994 So it's up and down, up and down, generally down, and that's why 285 00:13:00,994 --> 00:13:02,827 its purchasing power is decreasing over time. 286 00:13:02,827 --> 00:13:06,161 But gold is just gold, it doesn't change. 287 00:13:06,161 --> 00:13:08,161 It's the same thing as it was yesterday, 288 00:13:08,161 --> 00:13:09,827 as it was 1000 years ago. 289 00:13:09,827 --> 00:13:12,900 It's created when two neutron  stars collide in space. 290 00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:14,580 So its nature, it cannot be changed, 291 00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:15,994 which is why we love it. 292 00:13:15,994 --> 00:13:19,327 Because, in my mind, anything that its nature is defined 293 00:13:19,327 --> 00:13:24,161 by human being is subject to change or subject to corruption, 294 00:13:24,161 --> 00:13:26,494 even if with the best intentions, originally. 295 00:13:26,494 --> 00:13:30,660 So, yes, you've got to understand that, effectively, if you're in gold, 296 00:13:30,660 --> 00:13:32,280 but you're working in a foreign currency, 297 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,827 then you've got to be aware of  those foreign currency fluctuations. 298 00:13:35,827 --> 00:13:38,660 But it hasn't tanked in 2000 years. 299 00:13:38,660 --> 00:13:39,660 Is it going to tank tomorrow? 300 00:13:39,660 --> 00:13:41,994 There's no way it's going to tank tomorrow; 301 00:13:41,994 --> 00:13:44,327 I can bet my life on it. 302 00:13:44,327 --> 00:13:48,827 It might drop by 10% or something like that, over time. 303 00:13:48,827 --> 00:13:53,494 It's medium monthly variation is half a percent or something like that. 304 00:13:53,494 --> 00:13:56,494 It's certainly not as volatile as cryptocurrency. 305 00:13:56,494 --> 00:13:59,494 Cryptocurrencies will get there someday, I'm sure over time, 306 00:13:59,494 --> 00:14:01,327 and more mass adoption 307 00:14:01,327 --> 00:14:06,360 and less affected by whales within the system, et cetera. 308 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,860 That's one of the advantages of gold 309 00:14:07,860 --> 00:14:09,494 is that it's owned by everybody. 310 00:14:09,494 --> 00:14:13,327 When I say everybody, it's owned by lots of people globally. 311 00:14:13,327 --> 00:14:15,827 And from the poorest person 312 00:14:15,827 --> 00:14:19,200 on the street, in some parts of the world, to central banks, 313 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,720 remember still back their currency, 314 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,000 they back their power by holding gold. 315 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,993 A lot of them do the U.S. still does. 316 00:14:25,993 --> 00:14:30,327 And Russia was building up gold over the last 10 years, so has China. 317 00:14:30,327 --> 00:14:33,327 I don't think there's any coincidence about that. 318 00:14:33,327 --> 00:14:37,080 Their actions today are, I'm sure, planned 319 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,160 and carefully thought through  over the previous decades. 320 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,000 And gold-backed money, until relatively recently, 321 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,220 I mean, I don't consider myself that old. 322 00:14:47,220 --> 00:14:49,827 But 1970 was when I was born 323 00:14:49,827 --> 00:14:52,327 and the dollar was backed by gold, then, 324 00:14:52,327 --> 00:14:55,827 and it was backed by gold until 1971. 325 00:14:55,827 --> 00:15:01,660 And I know some people might have, as I get older, I start to realize, 326 00:15:01,660 --> 00:15:05,040 I start to understand, now,  how whole generations of people 327 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,780 can be born into scenarios. 328 00:15:06,780 --> 00:15:09,180 Where they have no understanding 329 00:15:09,180 --> 00:15:11,520 or appreciation of what went just before them 330 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,280 and, actually, that can lead  to all kinds of challenges. 331 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,826 For instance, how many of the audience, 332 00:15:16,826 --> 00:15:18,160 who are listening to this podcast, 333 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,180 have had a mortgage on a property 334 00:15:21,180 --> 00:15:24,660 when interest rates were over 5%? 335 00:15:24,660 --> 00:15:27,160 Very few, I'm guessing. 336 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,993 And, yet, in my parent's generation, 337 00:15:29,993 --> 00:15:32,660 there were interest rates of up to 12%. 338 00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:34,980 And lots of people were used to paying mortgages 339 00:15:34,980 --> 00:15:38,326 with interest rates at around 5%. 340 00:15:38,326 --> 00:15:41,326 But gold-backed money, until 1971, 341 00:15:41,326 --> 00:15:43,440 and we didn't come off the gold standard 342 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:44,760 because gold wasn't very good. 343 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:45,826 We came off the gold standard 344 00:15:45,826 --> 00:15:47,826 because the very fact that gold was awesome. 345 00:15:47,826 --> 00:15:49,659 Nixon loved gold, 346 00:15:49,659 --> 00:15:52,826 but the problem was that they couldn't afford the Vietnam War. 347 00:15:52,826 --> 00:15:55,200 They couldn't afford the  promises to the electorate, 348 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:56,400 so they were printing money. 349 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,620 And De Gaulle, the French president, 350 00:15:58,620 --> 00:16:01,080 said, "I think you're printing more dollars 351 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,826 than you have gold, guys. 352 00:16:02,826 --> 00:16:03,960 So I'll tell you what I'm going to do. 353 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,826 I'm going to use my Navy to come into New York, 354 00:16:06,826 --> 00:16:09,659 and swap my pallet loads of dollars for gold." 355 00:16:09,659 --> 00:16:12,659 And that's what was happening in 1970, 1971, 356 00:16:12,659 --> 00:16:16,320 the amount of gold in Fort Knox was going down. 357 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,180 And Nixon was like, "We can't lose all our gold." 358 00:16:18,180 --> 00:16:21,159 So they went away to think about it 359 00:16:21,159 --> 00:16:23,992 and decided, "Let's just  come off the gold standard." 360 00:16:23,992 --> 00:16:25,980 And they did that, temporarily, 361 00:16:25,980 --> 00:16:28,159 it was supposed to be a temporary window. 362 00:16:28,159 --> 00:16:30,780 And, of course, Nixon ended up getting thrown out, 363 00:16:30,780 --> 00:16:34,992 and we live, today, with the repercussions, consequences, of that. 364 00:16:34,992 --> 00:16:36,659 Which is that we're off the gold standard. 365 00:16:36,659 --> 00:16:38,820 Governments, central banks, all over the world, 366 00:16:38,820 --> 00:16:42,326 print as much money as they want to their heart's content. 367 00:16:42,326 --> 00:16:45,326 And, actually, it ends up being the greatest tax 368 00:16:45,326 --> 00:16:46,992 that no one talks about. 369 00:16:46,992 --> 00:16:50,492 Because if you're a saver, if you're a responsible saver, 370 00:16:50,492 --> 00:16:51,826 and you're putting your money away. 371 00:16:51,826 --> 00:16:53,659 And you don't want to put it at risk, in the stock market, 372 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,826 because a company can go to zero. 373 00:16:55,826 --> 00:16:58,880 A fiat currency can go to zero, and they do. 374 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,825 So the dollar and the pound have already lost 85% the value, 375 00:17:01,860 --> 00:17:03,659 so they're nearly at zero, anyway. 376 00:17:03,659 --> 00:17:07,492 Gold never does, that's why people are already attracted to it.   377 00:17:07,492 --> 00:17:11,100 But what seems to have just gotten lost in translation 378 00:17:11,100 --> 00:17:12,780 or missed is that everyone's rushed 379 00:17:12,780 --> 00:17:16,659 towards creating alternatives based on technology, and dismissing gold. 380 00:17:16,659 --> 00:17:18,825 Without realizing that,  actually, companies like Glint, 381 00:17:18,825 --> 00:17:20,159 and we're not the only ones, 382 00:17:20,159 --> 00:17:22,620 there are stablecoins, and stuff like that, 383 00:17:22,620 --> 00:17:24,825 based on these types of things, 384 00:17:24,825 --> 00:17:29,325 but using technology to make the  ultimate form of money, the future. 385 00:17:29,325 --> 00:17:31,825 Back to the future of money I'd, maybe, call it. 386 00:17:31,825 --> 00:17:34,992 But, certainly, giving everybody their own personal gold standard. 387 00:17:34,992 --> 00:17:37,140 And our vision, certainly, is a world 388 00:17:37,140 --> 00:17:38,940 where everyone has an equal  opportunity to prosper. 389 00:17:38,940 --> 00:17:41,400 And we think that bottom-up returns 390 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,658 to [indistinct] money is the only way 391 00:17:43,658 --> 00:17:46,325 we're going to get to any kind of fair society, 392 00:17:46,325 --> 00:17:47,825 and governments are not going to do it. 393 00:17:47,825 --> 00:17:50,992 So private individuals, directors, and companies, 394 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:54,120 we need to take control of our money ourselves. 395 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:58,158 And, I think, this whole explosion in innovation and stuff 396 00:17:58,158 --> 00:18:00,660 is just fantastic for people and businesses. 397 00:18:00,660 --> 00:18:05,040 You can always rely on people's innovation to come to the rescue. 398 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:10,440 But there are challenges with all these things, as you've intuited. 399 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,158 There are problems, aren't there? 400 00:18:12,158 --> 00:18:15,420 With implementing these new things into businesses, 401 00:18:15,420 --> 00:18:17,280 and that people have got to be very careful 402 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:18,120 about what they're doing. 403 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:20,658 They want to think carefully  before they jump, I think. 404 00:18:20,658 --> 00:18:22,440 – They do have to think  carefully before they jump. 405 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,300 And that's a perfect segue thinking about 406 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:25,991 your accounting and finance team. 407 00:18:25,991 --> 00:18:28,440 Who would need to take into consideration 408 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,700 all of these elements, as they're putting these on the balance sheet. 409 00:18:32,700 --> 00:18:33,600 What are some considerations 410 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,180 that they do need to take into consideration 411 00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:37,800 as they're implementing this? 412 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,600 And are there best practices  they should think about? 413 00:18:39,825 --> 00:18:43,260 –Yes, sure, well, I mean, you've got  to be thinking about four things. 414 00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:45,900 You got to be thinking about the  volatility, this is a risk on. 415 00:18:45,900 --> 00:18:48,060 If you're cryptocurrencies it's a risk on assets, 416 00:18:48,060 --> 00:18:51,960 if it's gold, it has a  level of volatility as well. 417 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:53,400 So you got to be thinking about that. 418 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,940 You got to be thinking about  anti-money laundering issues, 419 00:18:56,940 --> 00:18:59,658 especially, around cryptocurrencies. 420 00:18:59,658 --> 00:19:02,100 Is there a possibility that the cryptocurrency 421 00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:03,991 you're bringing in to your business 422 00:19:03,991 --> 00:19:07,491 or to your life has been the proceeds of crime? 423 00:19:07,491 --> 00:19:11,158 You've got to look at the  regulatory issues around tax.   424 00:19:11,158 --> 00:19:13,824 Around the nature of money itself. 425 00:19:13,824 --> 00:19:16,260 Is it cryptocurrency or gold money? 426 00:19:16,260 --> 00:19:17,280 Or is it property? 427 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:18,824 Or is it security? 428 00:19:18,824 --> 00:19:20,280 And we've got to look at the systems 429 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,324 and processes we've got in the business. 430 00:19:22,324 --> 00:19:25,158 Because a lot of those are designed for the incumbent system, 431 00:19:25,158 --> 00:19:26,991 not for the new one. 432 00:19:26,991 --> 00:19:32,880 So, yes, we've got to look, very carefully, at those in a bit more detail. 433 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,740 So regulatory wise, well,  you can lobby governments 434 00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:39,720 to make changes and those businesses 435 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,940 that might be listening that  have some influence there. 436 00:19:41,940 --> 00:19:44,991 You got to be talking to  government officials about that. 437 00:19:44,991 --> 00:19:46,824 Obviously, there's been a lot of change, 438 00:19:46,824 --> 00:19:48,657 or concerns about what changes 439 00:19:48,657 --> 00:19:51,300 there are in the elections in the U.S. 440 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:54,300 and it's quite obvious that Republicans 441 00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:57,420 seem to be a little bit more  cryptocurrency friendly, 442 00:19:57,420 --> 00:19:58,800 compared to the Democrats. 443 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,657 But either way, both parties are going to see 444 00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:07,324 some clampdowns on the cryptocurrency industry. 445 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,657 My appeal to governments and regulators 446 00:20:09,657 --> 00:20:12,657 out there is stop being vague. 447 00:20:12,657 --> 00:20:16,324 Businesses and people need  regulatory clarity on this. 448 00:20:16,324 --> 00:20:20,280 So there are chances that, I  think, the problem in the U.S., 449 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,200 at the moment, and any government 450 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,660 where they don't have a leading majority, 451 00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:30,324 is that any crypto-related  bills might not get passed. 452 00:20:30,324 --> 00:20:33,324 Unless there's a bipartisan belief 453 00:20:33,324 --> 00:20:37,440 in what needs to get done, and that's an issue. 454 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:38,760 I don't want to get political about things. 455 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,800 But, generally speaking, two parties, 456 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,720 when they're so far away from each other, 457 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,324 and they can't find a good center then, actually, nothing gets done. 458 00:20:49,324 --> 00:20:51,324 But we do need that clarity. 459 00:20:51,324 --> 00:20:54,480 So I appeal to regulators and governments 460 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:55,990 around the world to try and do that. 461 00:20:55,990 --> 00:20:59,990 Because, I mean, the SEC chair, Gary Gensler, 462 00:20:59,990 --> 00:21:01,500 has said that he believes 463 00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:04,323 the majority of cryptocurrencies are securities, 464 00:21:04,323 --> 00:21:07,157 and in the UK they see it as property, 465 00:21:07,157 --> 00:21:10,657 and I'm sure a lot of your  listeners think it's money. 466 00:21:10,657 --> 00:21:12,657 So we've got to get to the bottom of that. 467 00:21:12,657 --> 00:21:15,480 But when you're diversifying your balance sheet 468 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,490 to include alternative assets, 469 00:21:17,490 --> 00:21:19,990 you've got the challenges  around your reporting currency, 470 00:21:19,990 --> 00:21:23,323 and what effect that might have on your EBTDA. 471 00:21:23,323 --> 00:21:26,323 Losses may occur, even if only temporarily. 472 00:21:26,323 --> 00:21:28,260 And, of course, when you're doing your audits 473 00:21:28,260 --> 00:21:29,460 and your accounts that can lead 474 00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:33,657 to quite a misleading view  or misleading information 475 00:21:33,657 --> 00:21:35,323 for readers of those financial statements. 476 00:21:35,323 --> 00:21:40,990 I mean, you can have a situation where your assets look great, 477 00:21:40,990 --> 00:21:45,823 because cryptocurrencies just shot up. 478 00:21:45,823 --> 00:21:49,156 Or it could be that the  cryptocurrencies just bottomed 479 00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:51,300 the day before you had to submit your accounts. 480 00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:53,760 So, what is happening? 481 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,656 How do you deal with that? 482 00:21:55,656 --> 00:21:57,823 Capital gains tax. 483 00:21:57,823 --> 00:22:01,490 I see gold as money, I don't see it as an investment, 484 00:22:01,490 --> 00:22:03,240 it's just a store of value. 485 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,156 And if you said to me, I'm in London, at the moment, 486 00:22:08,220 --> 00:22:10,656 so if you said, "Jason, come over to the States, 487 00:22:10,656 --> 00:22:14,490 and let's have a week here, let's discuss cryptocurrencies, 488 00:22:14,490 --> 00:22:18,823 and alternative currencies, and gold in more detail." 489 00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:21,540 I might buy £10,000 worth of dollars, 490 00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:26,156 and I take those dollars, maybe I've got 12 or $13,000. 491 00:22:26,156 --> 00:22:28,680 And I come to the U.S., and you get there, 492 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,989 and you say to me, "Hey, Jason, 493 00:22:30,989 --> 00:22:33,823 don't worry about spending anything, I'm feeling great. 494 00:22:33,823 --> 00:22:36,323 I just won the lottery, so  I'm paying for everything." 495 00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:38,340 And then I come back with my money after a week 496 00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:41,323 and the pound is, we've had another Brexit problem, 497 00:22:41,323 --> 00:22:44,880 or another prime minister has been elected 498 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,156 and another one has resigned, and the pound has plummeted. 499 00:22:48,156 --> 00:22:51,323 Suddenly, I now have 17,000, when I exchange 500 00:22:51,323 --> 00:22:54,489 my dollars back for pounds, I've got more pounds than I left with 501 00:22:54,489 --> 00:22:55,489 there's a capital gain there.   502 00:22:55,489 --> 00:22:58,260 But do I have to report that to  the tax authorities et cetera? 503 00:22:58,260 --> 00:23:03,480 There's lots of exemptions around  using money in relation to tax. 504 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,020 But there isn't with  cryptocurrencies or with gold. 505 00:23:07,020 --> 00:23:11,520 Because the traditional view  of gold is a bar of gold, 506 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,322 is an investment, traditionally. 507 00:23:13,322 --> 00:23:15,322 The views on cryptocurrencies are varied. 508 00:23:15,322 --> 00:23:17,989 So, as we say, some see them as different things. 509 00:23:17,989 --> 00:23:19,800 So you got to be careful about that. 510 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,489 And you've got to get your advice, 511 00:23:21,489 --> 00:23:24,780 in your own region, about  how we should be treated. 512 00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:26,400 And probably taking the safest approach 513 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,489 to say, "Well, we'll assume  there has to be a tax on this, 514 00:23:30,489 --> 00:23:31,989 a capital gains tax or whatever, 515 00:23:31,989 --> 00:23:33,180 we're going to put that money aside." 516 00:23:33,322 --> 00:23:37,489 Even if you don't submit it, every region has got to deal 517 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,822 with their own situations there, but you must be cognizant of it. 518 00:23:41,940 --> 00:23:43,860 and how do you track all the fees? 519 00:23:43,860 --> 00:23:47,822 How do you track the fluctuations  in the currency's value? 520 00:23:47,822 --> 00:23:50,322 I mean, with cryptocurrencies there can be quite big gas fees, 521 00:23:50,322 --> 00:23:53,489 for instance, around some things, and the fees can be different 522 00:23:53,489 --> 00:23:55,155 depending on what's going on the network 523 00:23:55,155 --> 00:23:57,300 or the blockchain is busy at the time, 524 00:23:57,300 --> 00:23:59,489 suddenly, those fees are going up. 525 00:23:59,489 --> 00:24:02,040 You've got a bit of a difficult situation 526 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,322 where you're trying to manage all of that, 527 00:24:05,322 --> 00:24:09,655 manage that volatility, manage the counterparty risk in terms of AML. 528 00:24:09,655 --> 00:24:12,540 So there are a couple of different approaches 529 00:24:12,540 --> 00:24:14,880 to this, though, you can take a hands-off approach 530 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:20,100 where you go, "Look, we're  going to take any crypto 531 00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:21,989 that comes to us as a business. 532 00:24:21,989 --> 00:24:23,100 We're not going to actively go out there 533 00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:26,155 and buy crypto but what we might  do is accept cryptocurrency, 534 00:24:26,155 --> 00:24:29,655 in lieu of payments of services or products. 535 00:24:29,655 --> 00:24:30,822 You might do that with gold, 536 00:24:30,822 --> 00:24:32,100 or you might do that with cryptocurrency. 537 00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:34,488 And what you could say, you could choose a vendor 538 00:24:34,488 --> 00:24:37,322 and exchange that for you automatically. 539 00:24:37,322 --> 00:24:40,155 So you might not even touch the cryptocurrency.   540 00:24:40,155 --> 00:24:43,320 You say, "Look, I still want the currency of my residence, 541 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,360 I still want my default currency 542 00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:47,822 for my accounts to come into our system. 543 00:24:47,822 --> 00:24:50,280 You can pay me in cryptocurrency or gold. 544 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,155 But my vendor or exchange that I'm working with 545 00:24:53,155 --> 00:24:55,322 will convert that to dollars that comes in and that's obviously 546 00:24:55,322 --> 00:24:57,060 the easiest way to deal with this. 547 00:24:57,060 --> 00:24:59,655 And, so, nothing really changes  for you in the back end. 548 00:24:59,655 --> 00:25:02,822 But if you do want to take that hands-on approach. 549 00:25:02,822 --> 00:25:04,440 You got to think about three things, 550 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,260 you've got to think about,  well, what treasury systems 551 00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:09,655 and processes do I have to put in place? 552 00:25:09,655 --> 00:25:12,821 What are my banking relationships going to say about this? 553 00:25:12,821 --> 00:25:13,655 Are they going to be happy 554 00:25:13,655 --> 00:25:15,660 that we're taking on cryptocurrencies about that? 555 00:25:15,660 --> 00:25:18,821 And they might not allow me to exchange it and bank it later. 556 00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:21,240 And some banks, increasingly, 557 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:22,988 they're more comfortable with things; 558 00:25:22,988 --> 00:25:25,155 alternatives, like gold and cryptocurrencies. 559 00:25:25,155 --> 00:25:27,155 But you've got to ask your question, 560 00:25:27,155 --> 00:25:29,155 what is my bank's attitude towards this? 561 00:25:29,155 --> 00:25:31,488 And then you've got to  choose who your vendors are. 562 00:25:31,488 --> 00:25:33,821 Are you going to be working with vendors like exchanges 563 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,655 or are you going to be working with your own wallets. 564 00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:39,480 There are challenges with both. 565 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,155 If you've got your own wallets, how are you managing access 566 00:25:42,155 --> 00:25:44,488 to those wallets and security around it? 567 00:25:44,488 --> 00:25:46,988 How are you dealing with... 568 00:25:46,988 --> 00:25:49,654 If you're working with an exchange, then, 569 00:25:49,654 --> 00:25:51,480 I mean, we've all seen some of the problems, 570 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,154 in the last 48 hours, with FTX. 571 00:25:55,154 --> 00:25:57,600 I mean, I think, it was Fortune Magazine. 572 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,340 I was just in the club, the other day, 573 00:25:59,340 --> 00:26:02,321 and I saw a Fortune Magazine and there's the founder of FTX, 574 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,654 on the cover, about he's going to be the future, 575 00:26:05,654 --> 00:26:09,488 and here we are with the company near collapse. 576 00:26:09,488 --> 00:26:12,321 And, so, who do you choose to work with, 577 00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:13,560 if you're working with a vendor? 578 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,321 So there's plenty to think about. 579 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:22,080 But it's important that any  business remains curious, 580 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,988 remains innovative, creative. 581 00:26:24,988 --> 00:26:30,321 And you got to start thinking  about this and doing this, 582 00:26:30,321 --> 00:26:32,340 because you'll find the right solution 583 00:26:32,340 --> 00:26:34,654 for your business if you take it seriously. 584 00:26:34,654 --> 00:26:39,987 And that can be the difference between success and failure. 585 00:26:39,987 --> 00:26:42,654 I mean, with inflation running in some countries that's anywhere 586 00:26:42,654 --> 00:26:45,487 between 10 and 80%, at the moment. 587 00:26:45,487 --> 00:26:48,321 This is the difference, and we live in a world that's very competitive. 588 00:26:48,321 --> 00:26:53,154 And, so, you've got to think out the box. 589 00:26:53,154 --> 00:26:55,440 I think, those people who embrace technology, 590 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,420 generally speaking, get  rewarded in the long term.   591 00:26:57,821 --> 00:27:00,154 – I agree with you, I think they will. 592 00:27:00,154 --> 00:27:02,654 And, like you said, you'd have  to know your local regulations 593 00:27:02,654 --> 00:27:05,640 like in the U.S. the FASB voted on October 12 594 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,700 that cryptocurrencies are  no longer intangible assets, 595 00:27:08,700 --> 00:27:10,320 their guidance has changed. 596 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:11,320 So you have to know that, 597 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,820 and you have to know how to account for that. 598 00:27:13,820 --> 00:27:19,154 And I know IFAC and all those  other places are trying to consider 599 00:27:19,154 --> 00:27:21,300 how you should view these or account for these. 600 00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:27,320 And, so, you have to know what your  local regulatory body is doing. 601 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,940 – Yes, and, as you say,  it's changing all the time. 602 00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:31,980 So Hong Kong, for instance, 603 00:27:31,980 --> 00:27:35,100 had a very strict attitude  towards cryptocurrencies. 604 00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:38,987 But then what happened is they saw money flowing to Singapore, 605 00:27:39,060 --> 00:27:42,820 which had taken a much more relaxed view on cryptocurrencies. 606 00:27:42,820 --> 00:27:44,220 And now the tables are turning, 607 00:27:44,220 --> 00:27:48,987 Hong Kong has just announced that it wants to be crypto-friendly. 608 00:27:48,987 --> 00:27:51,780 Singapore is starting to tighten up its regulations around that, 609 00:27:51,780 --> 00:27:54,987 and even saying that they might restrict it because of the volatility. 610 00:27:54,987 --> 00:27:59,820 And in April, here in the UK, the UK Government said that 611 00:27:59,820 --> 00:28:02,160 we were going to announce rules 612 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,620 to say that stablecoins can be recognized 613 00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:06,653 as a valid form of payment. 614 00:28:06,653 --> 00:28:07,920 I'm not quite sure what that means. 615 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,487 They, obviously, want Britain to become, now, a global hub 616 00:28:10,487 --> 00:28:12,420 for crypto asset technology and investment. 617 00:28:12,420 --> 00:28:13,320 But what does that really mean? 618 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,820 You're going to accept our  taxes in cryptocurrency? 619 00:28:16,860 --> 00:28:19,987 And, actually, that's something to mention, 620 00:28:19,987 --> 00:28:23,940 being able to pay your employee-related taxes, 621 00:28:23,940 --> 00:28:27,153 or your value-added taxes, your product taxes. 622 00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:31,986 I think early on, I sold a company to a business. 623 00:28:31,986 --> 00:28:38,320 One of the very first electronic  barter-based trade currencies, 624 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:44,486 and I was involved in that business for a few months, after the exit. 625 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,060 And they had a very simple approach, 626 00:28:48,060 --> 00:28:50,986 "Yes, I can get paid in  this alternative currency." 627 00:28:50,986 --> 00:28:52,986 But, at the end of the day, 628 00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:55,820 the government still wants to be paid in their currency. 629 00:28:55,820 --> 00:28:58,486 So you just have to, again, account for that. 630 00:28:58,486 --> 00:29:02,820 – Yes, so as we think about the future, look into our crystal ball. 631 00:29:02,820 --> 00:29:04,486 Do you think we're heading toward 632 00:29:04,620 --> 00:29:06,320 what the science fiction movies 633 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,653 always say, like "I'll pay you 20,000 credits, here you go." 634 00:29:10,653 --> 00:29:12,153 Or are we not going that direction? 635 00:29:12,153 --> 00:29:13,653 Do you think we'll get to that point, 636 00:29:13,653 --> 00:29:15,600 where everything will be virtual 637 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,880 or do you think we'll still  have some hard currency 638 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,153 that we'll be working with? 639 00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:23,820 – Well, I think, the term  is we always overestimate 640 00:29:23,820 --> 00:29:25,260 what can happen in the next five years 641 00:29:25,260 --> 00:29:27,653 and underestimate what  could happen in the next 20. 642 00:29:27,653 --> 00:29:31,819 And, I mean, I was involved in virtual reality, 643 00:29:31,819 --> 00:29:33,819 the first time it was called back in the '90s. 644 00:29:33,819 --> 00:29:36,153 And I see what's going on with Meta and Facebook 645 00:29:36,153 --> 00:29:38,340 and there's no way the virtual reality 646 00:29:38,340 --> 00:29:41,319 is going to deliver the kind of returns, 647 00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:43,986 and the kind of innovation that is needed. 648 00:29:43,986 --> 00:29:47,160 That is reflected with the enthusiasm 649 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,200 that people like Facebook have for it and stuff. 650 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,652 We're just a million miles away from where we need to be.   651 00:29:53,652 --> 00:29:57,000 And, so, it's the same with cryptocurrencies. 652 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,152 For instance, they need to mature, 653 00:29:58,152 --> 00:29:59,652 they need to get more mass adoption 654 00:29:59,652 --> 00:30:02,520 before their volatility will start to come down. 655 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,480 They can be considered valuable stores of value. 656 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,819 They're already a good medium of exchange-ish. 657 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,120 Transactions are still very high and costly, 658 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,220 in most of these cryptocurrencies. 659 00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:17,152 So there's still a lot of immaturity there, 660 00:30:17,152 --> 00:30:20,280 and I love the enthusiasm for it. 661 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,486 And I do think I'm singing  from the same hymn sheet, 662 00:30:23,486 --> 00:30:25,152 in terms of gold, for instance. 663 00:30:25,152 --> 00:30:29,986 But, I think, long-term there  will be lots of progress made 664 00:30:29,986 --> 00:30:31,380 and some progress that, maybe, 665 00:30:31,380 --> 00:30:33,720 some of the listeners are  even thinking about right now. 666 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,985 I mean, what's the effect of  quantum computing on finance? 667 00:30:37,985 --> 00:30:39,840 And you might say, "Well, what's  that got to do with finance?" 668 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,819 Well, it's got a lot to do with security. 669 00:30:42,819 --> 00:30:45,652 The idea that you could have two elements 670 00:30:45,652 --> 00:30:47,520 quantumly entangled with each other, 671 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,985 and then separated by great distances. 672 00:30:49,985 --> 00:30:52,819 I mean, I don't profess to know, 673 00:30:52,819 --> 00:30:55,020 I know a tiny amount is very dangerous. 674 00:30:55,020 --> 00:30:56,652 But the idea that you could have 675 00:30:56,652 --> 00:30:59,340 new security systems based on quantum computing, 676 00:30:59,340 --> 00:31:02,040 might mean, for instance,  that you can actually tell 677 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,100 whether or not this is a real  user accessing the system, 678 00:31:05,100 --> 00:31:09,819 when the system is on earth  and the person is on Mars. 679 00:31:09,819 --> 00:31:11,640 So, actually, there's no reason why, 680 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,985 for instance, currencies could be intergalactic. 681 00:31:14,985 --> 00:31:17,485 And whether that is a fiat system. 682 00:31:17,485 --> 00:31:19,740 Whether it is a cryptocurrency system. 683 00:31:19,740 --> 00:31:22,152 Whether it is a gold-based system. 684 00:31:22,152 --> 00:31:25,652 I don't think matters, I  think that the future leads. 685 00:31:25,652 --> 00:31:27,985 There is a huge amount of innovation 686 00:31:27,985 --> 00:31:30,985 and excitement, for me, as we move forward. 687 00:31:30,985 --> 00:31:33,152 I would say, though, fiat currencies 688 00:31:33,152 --> 00:31:35,485 all come to an end, they all. 689 00:31:35,485 --> 00:31:39,318 There is not one fiat currency  that stood the test of time ever. 690 00:31:39,318 --> 00:31:42,780 And we can see that they are becoming, 691 00:31:42,780 --> 00:31:45,318 right in front of our eyes, worthless. 692 00:31:45,318 --> 00:31:47,820 And, so, I think, that there will be an end 693 00:31:47,820 --> 00:31:50,152 to the U.S. dollar, the pound, and the euro. 694 00:31:50,152 --> 00:31:50,985 But when it will be? 695 00:31:51,060 --> 00:31:54,151 They'll probably last a lot longer  than we think they ever will.   696 00:31:54,151 --> 00:31:57,300 Gold will still be here and,  still, I think, a store of value. 697 00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:00,318 And with the technologies behind it, 698 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,280 it's a tantalizing opportunity 699 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,485 to be a fantastic global interstellar currency, 700 00:32:06,485 --> 00:32:08,985 based on the kind of technology we could bring forward. 701 00:32:08,985 --> 00:32:12,485 But I do think that blockchain and distributed ledger's, in general, 702 00:32:12,485 --> 00:32:16,985 can offer a huge amount of increased transparency and trustworthiness, 703 00:32:16,985 --> 00:32:19,485 in the long run, to make accountants 704 00:32:19,485 --> 00:32:21,600 and finance teams lives much easier. 705 00:32:22,651 --> 00:32:24,720 – I agree, and, Jason, I just  want to thank you, again, 706 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:25,651 for coming on the podcast. 707 00:32:25,651 --> 00:32:27,180 It's been great having this conversation. 708 00:32:27,180 --> 00:32:28,860 I know we could keep talking for a long time, 709 00:32:28,860 --> 00:32:31,818 but thanks for sharing your expertise with us, today. 710 00:32:31,818 --> 00:32:33,985 – Adam, it's been a pleasure, thank you. 711 00:32:34,151 --> 00:32:36,318 < Music > 712 00:32:36,318 --> 00:32:39,151 – This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast. 713 00:32:39,151 --> 00:32:41,984 Providing you with the latest  perspectives of thought leaders 714 00:32:41,984 --> 00:32:43,818 from the accounting and finance profession. 715 00:32:43,818 --> 00:32:46,484 If you like what you heard, and you'd like to be counted in 716 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,984 for more relevant accounting  and finance education. 717 00:32:48,984 --> 00:32:54,318 Visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.