WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.049 --> 00:00:06.519 ​ CJ: Welcome to Build and Learn. 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:07.539 My name is CJ. 00:00:07.906 --> 00:00:10.906 Colin: And I'm Colin, and today we are talking about the new 00:00:11.066 --> 00:00:14.056 HackerRank report for 2023. 00:00:15.233 --> 00:00:19.238 CJ: Before we get into that, we wanted to just talk about, I mean, you and 00:00:19.238 --> 00:00:24.368 I both want to build eventually some sort of like side hustle income and 00:00:24.428 --> 00:00:27.548 it sounds like you heard a really inspiring episode of a podcast. 00:00:27.548 --> 00:00:30.471 I need to catch up on that that Art of Product episode. 00:00:30.471 --> 00:00:30.961 But yeah. 00:00:31.201 --> 00:00:33.871 So who was on it and what were they talking about? 00:00:35.371 --> 00:00:38.291 Colin: Yeah, so this is Art of Product episode 218. 00:00:38.311 --> 00:00:43.903 It was Ben Orenstein talking to Adam Wathan of Tailwind and many, many 00:00:43.903 --> 00:00:48.088 other things, but you know, I think both of us have done this for a while. 00:00:48.088 --> 00:00:53.338 I used to listen to Founders Quest from HoneyBadger and I listened to Build 00:00:53.338 --> 00:00:58.373 Your SaaS and Art of Product where you know, Ben and and also Derrick 00:00:58.373 --> 00:01:01.943 and I think Derrick might come back to the show at some point, but you know, 00:01:01.943 --> 00:01:05.873 they've been building in the open and with Build Your SaaS, they were building 00:01:05.873 --> 00:01:09.833 Transistor in the open, which is what we use for podcast hosting and you know, 00:01:09.833 --> 00:01:13.343 they're doing really well and it's just kind of cool to listen back to it and. 00:01:14.343 --> 00:01:17.243 I've always had this desire to build something. 00:01:17.246 --> 00:01:19.879 And I think we talked about in the last few episodes ago about going 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:23.514 to the Rails SaaS conference, which I didn't end up going to after all. 00:01:23.514 --> 00:01:27.714 But like, just being in that world, you know, you see other people building things 00:01:27.714 --> 00:01:29.664 on top of the tools that we use every day. 00:01:30.114 --> 00:01:33.204 And I actually think this will be a good segue into what we talk about 00:01:33.209 --> 00:01:37.764 later today, which is that the demand for these skills is not going away. 00:01:37.830 --> 00:01:39.840 There's only more people looking to do it. 00:01:39.907 --> 00:01:44.096 But in that episode, they really just get into like, what does it take to build 00:01:44.101 --> 00:01:49.366 like a developer education or developer content business whether that's through 00:01:49.396 --> 00:01:55.316 something like a course or you know, courses, books, YouTube and I think it 00:01:55.786 --> 00:01:58.831 probably won't surprise you or anyone listening that it takes a long time for 00:01:58.831 --> 00:02:01.231 that quote unquote, overnight success. 00:02:02.156 --> 00:02:02.476 CJ: Mm-hmm. 00:02:03.106 --> 00:02:07.494 Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that cuz, so Peter Levels it's like levels.Io, 00:02:07.914 --> 00:02:09.244 he's built a whole bunch of stuff. 00:02:09.244 --> 00:02:10.788 Famous for the remote. 00:02:10.818 --> 00:02:11.268 Okay. 00:02:11.268 --> 00:02:12.808 Or like the, the nomad list. 00:02:12.808 --> 00:02:13.031 Colin: Mm-hmm. 00:02:13.681 --> 00:02:14.191 CJ: Stuff. 00:02:14.551 --> 00:02:18.661 And recently he's been working on a bunch of like AI tools. 00:02:18.661 --> 00:02:20.821 So like the, I think the first one was interior ai. 00:02:20.821 --> 00:02:25.231 And now he has like all these, like you can upload images of your, of yourself, 00:02:25.236 --> 00:02:28.441 and then it'll build avatars for you in like all these different genres. 00:02:28.921 --> 00:02:31.441 And he made like insane revenue. 00:02:32.566 --> 00:02:35.536 Basically in like 72 hours of launching this. 00:02:36.076 --> 00:02:39.449 And a lot of people talk about how like, okay, you know, 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:41.129 that's an overnight success. 00:02:41.134 --> 00:02:45.479 But then he posted today, he posted a screenshot of GitHub and 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:49.739 his GitHub squares are just rock solid for like the entire year. 00:02:50.069 --> 00:02:53.009 And this is like his 10th year on his get up history. 00:02:53.009 --> 00:02:53.819 So it's like, okay. 00:02:54.989 --> 00:02:58.619 He's successful and all these people are kind of like, whatever, not yeah, they're, 00:02:58.619 --> 00:03:02.279 they're looking up to him and saying like, oh yeah, you're lucky or whatever. 00:03:02.279 --> 00:03:06.919 But the reality is that he, you know, created that luck by just 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:10.909 taking so many swings and, you know, just going up to bat so many times. 00:03:10.918 --> 00:03:13.510 Colin: Yeah, you, I mean, we talked about this in some other episodes too, but it's 00:03:13.510 --> 00:03:15.490 the reps that you're putting in, right? 00:03:15.490 --> 00:03:18.880 It's it like doing it once, like working on a project in a, in 00:03:18.880 --> 00:03:22.210 a weekend and then throwing it away is not gonna get you there. 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:25.510 Adam Wathan was talking a lot about how, like when they dropped their 00:03:25.510 --> 00:03:32.530 Refactoring UI book, it was after years of creating very useful free tweets, right? 00:03:32.530 --> 00:03:36.140 Like, how to do this thing in CSS. 00:03:36.140 --> 00:03:36.410 Right. 00:03:36.410 --> 00:03:38.845 And it's similar to like what we talked about in the content creation 00:03:38.845 --> 00:03:42.940 episode where you've been putting out these like very specific little like, 00:03:43.090 --> 00:03:47.590 you know, nuggets of information on Ruby, like what does this command do? 00:03:47.590 --> 00:03:50.080 What does this, you know, how do you use this class method? 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:50.740 Things like that. 00:03:50.761 --> 00:03:53.944 But it was like laying that groundwork and not expecting anything 00:03:53.944 --> 00:03:55.954 in return for a very long time. 00:03:55.959 --> 00:03:57.284 Just building that audience. 00:03:57.347 --> 00:04:01.337 And he wasn't necessarily building an audience just to like, be like, all 00:04:01.337 --> 00:04:02.987 right, it's time to settle to my audience. 00:04:02.992 --> 00:04:05.477 You know, he's doing it because he truly loves what he is working on. 00:04:06.152 --> 00:04:08.672 And he just like, this is exciting and I wanna share it with people. 00:04:08.672 --> 00:04:10.322 And then other people are like, oh, I didn't know that. 00:04:10.472 --> 00:04:13.982 You know, you could do that in css, or that making something 00:04:14.012 --> 00:04:16.442 look nice in HTML could be done. 00:04:16.652 --> 00:04:17.012 You know? 00:04:17.252 --> 00:04:17.942 So simply 00:04:18.442 --> 00:04:19.002 CJ: Right. 00:04:20.082 --> 00:04:25.637 And I mean, if we need any sort of metrics around success, I think today or 00:04:25.637 --> 00:04:30.827 yesterday, tailwind crossed, bootstrap in terms of like N P M downloads. 00:04:30.832 --> 00:04:34.332 So it is like now like the number one CSS framework or whatever. 00:04:34.332 --> 00:04:36.865 Colin: That's very interesting cuz we're gonna talk a lot about 00:04:36.865 --> 00:04:38.695 trends in languages and stuff today. 00:04:38.695 --> 00:04:41.269 But when I was trying to think back, there's a lot of we'll just 00:04:41.274 --> 00:04:44.479 say that right now, this is being recorded in November of 2022. 00:04:44.530 --> 00:04:48.250 There's a lot of tumultuous activity going on with Twitter right now, 00:04:48.790 --> 00:04:51.910 and I think back to the fact that like people were trying to ask like 00:04:51.910 --> 00:04:53.710 what innovations Twitter has done. 00:04:54.220 --> 00:04:56.800 And I think back to the early days of Twitter where people were. 00:04:57.640 --> 00:05:00.100 Again, throwing things out there to see what sticks and 00:05:00.100 --> 00:05:02.020 bootstrap came from Twitter. 00:05:02.050 --> 00:05:03.700 Like, which is awesome. 00:05:03.700 --> 00:05:06.536 And like for a long time every website looked like that. 00:05:06.538 --> 00:05:09.923 And now you're getting everyone kind of moving over to Tailwind and the 00:05:09.928 --> 00:05:15.483 kind of old guard is changing over into Tailwind, but like, I mean, if you've 00:05:15.483 --> 00:05:19.833 built something like Tailwind, you're gonna have a very loyal following 00:05:19.833 --> 00:05:22.863 that you can continue to build products for, which is great for Adam. 00:05:22.863 --> 00:05:24.956 And and I'm blanking on his partner's name. 00:05:25.642 --> 00:05:26.342 Steve Shoger. 00:05:26.362 --> 00:05:26.932 That's right. 00:05:27.325 --> 00:05:31.015 CJ: Yeah, I like just, I'm rebuilding my personal site. 00:05:31.015 --> 00:05:32.725 It's like almost ready to go. 00:05:33.325 --> 00:05:37.895 And I'm using Tailwind and I'm realizing that I'm actually like learning CSS 00:05:37.915 --> 00:05:42.265 too through Tailwind because I, I mean, anytime you wanna tweak anything 00:05:42.265 --> 00:05:45.775 that doesn't fit directly, I, so I, I use a lot of, like, the components 00:05:45.775 --> 00:05:47.476 directly from Tailwind UI the like 00:05:47.501 --> 00:05:48.781 Colin: Which is another product. 00:05:48.781 --> 00:05:49.221 Yeah. 00:05:49.221 --> 00:05:49.621 Another. 00:05:50.486 --> 00:05:53.741 CJ: Well, honestly, like, before Tailwind UI came out, I was like, 00:05:53.771 --> 00:05:57.551 oh man, that's, I would probably never pay for Bootstrap, right. 00:05:57.656 --> 00:05:57.986 Colin: Right. 00:05:58.122 --> 00:06:01.581 CJ: Tailwind UI comes out, it's all these beautiful components that are pre-built 00:06:01.581 --> 00:06:03.021 for you that you just copy and paste. 00:06:03.411 --> 00:06:07.071 And it's a no-brainer for me who is like a person that doesn't want 00:06:07.071 --> 00:06:08.271 to think too much about design. 00:06:08.691 --> 00:06:11.770 But yeah, for this personal site, there was a few things that I wanted 00:06:11.770 --> 00:06:15.430 to customize and tweak, and there wasn't perfect components in there. 00:06:15.435 --> 00:06:18.970 And I was like, oh my God, in my accidentally like learning CSS right now. 00:06:18.970 --> 00:06:22.420 Like, okay, here's how you do, like, you know, nested grids 00:06:22.487 --> 00:06:23.750 and like, you know, sizing. 00:06:24.855 --> 00:06:26.415 Colin: That's like the deep end of CSS too. 00:06:26.495 --> 00:06:30.125 I feel like how we used to learn and teach c s s and design 00:06:30.125 --> 00:06:31.565 was very different than today. 00:06:31.565 --> 00:06:34.715 Like most people start with tailwind and go backwards, unlearn 00:06:34.715 --> 00:06:39.815 c s s versus, you know, we both kind of grew up with c s s and. 00:06:40.550 --> 00:06:44.420 As it evolved and things like css, zengarden, and all these different sites 00:06:44.420 --> 00:06:47.750 where it was like the whole idea was that you should be able to replace the style 00:06:47.750 --> 00:06:49.130 sheet and completely change the page. 00:06:49.135 --> 00:06:53.755 Like that does not exist today with components and you know, style 00:06:53.755 --> 00:06:54.865 components and things like that. 00:06:54.865 --> 00:06:59.604 Everything's so tightly styled, but again, it allows you to drop that component 00:06:59.604 --> 00:07:01.224 in from Tailwind ui, which is great. 00:07:01.644 --> 00:07:01.794 CJ: Mm. 00:07:02.484 --> 00:07:05.244 Colin: I have paid for bootstrap themes over time. 00:07:06.084 --> 00:07:07.824 I guess they kind of came with components. 00:07:07.824 --> 00:07:12.684 It was always pretty painful to figure out where, you know, gonna start at 00:07:12.684 --> 00:07:16.044 this tag and take this until this tag and go copy and paste it and 00:07:16.044 --> 00:07:18.984 hope it looks fine in the other site. 00:07:19.004 --> 00:07:21.524 I think a lot of WordPress sites were built that way too. 00:07:21.584 --> 00:07:23.839 But yeah, I think, I think it's cool. 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:27.927 I think you've dipped your toe in like personally creating a lot of content 00:07:27.927 --> 00:07:31.407 on YouTube and things like that, but I think it'll be cool to, for us to 00:07:31.407 --> 00:07:34.827 think about what kinds of products we can both, or not even products, but 00:07:34.827 --> 00:07:39.747 like courses or experiences that we can kind of build that, you know, might 00:07:39.957 --> 00:07:44.301 generate some side income or continue to develop ourselves as developers as well. 00:07:45.150 --> 00:07:48.840 Can you give us a quick overview of what Hacker Rank is and how companies use it? 00:07:49.335 --> 00:07:49.875 CJ: Yeah. 00:07:49.875 --> 00:07:54.314 I think a good way to explain it might be that it is sort of like a filter. 00:07:54.929 --> 00:07:58.469 For candidates that want to work at a company. 00:07:58.469 --> 00:08:03.771 So as part of you know, the interview or candidate process, a company might 00:08:03.771 --> 00:08:09.511 have several different, like algorithmic or coding challenges where you have. 00:08:09.558 --> 00:08:13.038 You have to like write some code and submit your answer to a problem 00:08:13.278 --> 00:08:15.481 through the hacker rank interface. 00:08:15.520 --> 00:08:20.530 And then, you know how, like how fast the code runs and if you 00:08:20.535 --> 00:08:23.860 pass all the tests and like, did you meet all of their standards? 00:08:23.865 --> 00:08:27.087 They're looking for sort of you know, signal on all of those 00:08:27.087 --> 00:08:32.187 different things to see if you pass their rubric in order to move on. 00:08:32.337 --> 00:08:36.887 And Maybe an onsite or go on to more serious interviews where the 00:08:36.887 --> 00:08:38.327 company might make more investments. 00:08:38.327 --> 00:08:41.717 So it's kind of like a scalable way to filter people out. 00:08:41.726 --> 00:08:44.536 Another one is like leet code, where a bunch of people just, I mean it's, 00:08:44.836 --> 00:08:49.186 there's these websites where you can go and just do a bunch of algorithmic solve 00:08:49.191 --> 00:08:54.436 problems basically and submit your code to try to, you know, I dunno, reverse a 00:08:54.436 --> 00:08:59.162 linked list, for instance, or, you know find the bug in this c plus plus program. 00:08:59.361 --> 00:09:02.901 Colin: Before we jump into, and I think the reason why we brought this up is that 00:09:02.901 --> 00:09:09.051 we saw that Ruby specifically was falling on their results, and so you had flagged 00:09:09.051 --> 00:09:12.861 us on Twitter and we said, let, let's talk about it a little bit more on the show. 00:09:12.861 --> 00:09:16.431 So before we get into that, I want to set their methodology. 00:09:16.431 --> 00:09:21.111 So basically we're gonna talk about like what they see as the top demand and the 00:09:21.111 --> 00:09:23.451 top preference for software languages. 00:09:23.522 --> 00:09:26.642 On the employer demand side, they're basically looking at 00:09:26.642 --> 00:09:30.102 hacker rank assessment tests, where specific languages were required 00:09:30.153 --> 00:09:31.803 or specific library questions. 00:09:32.223 --> 00:09:35.793 And then on the supply side, they basically ask people who 00:09:35.793 --> 00:09:39.603 are taking the tests, like what their proficiency and preferences. 00:09:39.603 --> 00:09:43.443 So like you might say like, yeah, this test is in Java, but I prefer to write 00:09:43.443 --> 00:09:45.393 it Python or go, or whatever that might. 00:09:46.983 --> 00:09:48.483 that's kind of just the methodology. 00:09:48.483 --> 00:09:51.854 They did some industry level trends as well which we can talk about. 00:09:51.854 --> 00:09:54.595 But they, so they were kind of looking at assessments on a whole. 00:09:54.621 --> 00:09:59.914 But like we mentioned before the demand for almost everything is growing. 00:09:59.974 --> 00:10:02.654 It's just not everything is growing at the same pace. 00:10:02.703 --> 00:10:05.013 So there's some interesting things we can dive into. 00:10:05.893 --> 00:10:08.454 CJ: Yeah, I was also surprised too that like a lot. 00:10:09.584 --> 00:10:12.964 Employers did not require a specific language on the test. 00:10:13.054 --> 00:10:18.694 So only about one in five assessments required, like some specific language, 00:10:19.264 --> 00:10:23.284 which if you're at home and you're thinking, or you're walking your 00:10:23.284 --> 00:10:25.174 dog or you're driving your car, or whatever you're doing while you're 00:10:25.174 --> 00:10:30.003 listening to us and you're thinking like, oh, I I, I know Ruby really well 00:10:30.003 --> 00:10:35.643 and I know r and I know Swift, but I don't know Java or Python, I think. 00:10:36.538 --> 00:10:38.643 That should give you a little bit more confidence that like it, 00:10:38.703 --> 00:10:42.093 you don't actually need to know a specific programming language. 00:10:42.093 --> 00:10:46.173 Or at least, you know, 80% of employers might not require 00:10:46.173 --> 00:10:48.753 that, you know, a specific programming language to get hired. 00:10:49.173 --> 00:10:54.063 And in fact, I remember when I started my job at my vr, I did not know Python, 00:10:54.333 --> 00:10:57.933 and I was hired on as like a, you know, senior software engineer that 00:10:57.933 --> 00:10:59.943 was gonna write Python codes 24 7. 00:10:59.943 --> 00:11:05.058 So like, When I tweeted about this, someone said, oh, I've been doing PHP a 00:11:05.058 --> 00:11:09.168 ton and I've been learning Ruby on the side, but I am nervous about learning 00:11:09.168 --> 00:11:13.008 Ruby if it's gonna fall in, you know, if it's falling in preference or whatever. 00:11:13.008 --> 00:11:16.359 So yeah, all to say like, if you know one language or if 00:11:16.359 --> 00:11:19.309 you know a couple languages, you're gonna be in a good place. 00:11:19.379 --> 00:11:19.649 So. 00:11:20.119 --> 00:11:20.809 Colin: Definitely. 00:11:20.839 --> 00:11:21.109 Yeah. 00:11:21.109 --> 00:11:26.540 So like, I guess to set the stage there the volume of the, what they 00:11:26.540 --> 00:11:30.860 saw the top five languages was Java, Python, sql, which I wouldn't 00:11:30.860 --> 00:11:32.270 really, I mean, it's a language, but. 00:11:33.030 --> 00:11:35.320 You use SQL in all of these languages? 00:11:35.369 --> 00:11:37.109 C plus plus and JavaScript. 00:11:37.109 --> 00:11:41.099 So, you know, JavaScript makes up type script, JavaScripts, all the React 00:11:41.099 --> 00:11:43.019 stuff that's happening, react native. 00:11:43.079 --> 00:11:45.219 So you get a little bit of mobile development in there. 00:11:45.288 --> 00:11:49.148 I don't see Kotlin on here, so I imagine Java and Kotlin might, 00:11:50.208 --> 00:11:51.498 might be under the same one. 00:11:51.498 --> 00:11:52.698 But I do see Swift. 00:11:53.328 --> 00:11:55.669 I don't see objective C Ruby's on here. 00:11:55.669 --> 00:12:01.054 I don't know what this graph represents cause it's the tiniest sliver, 77. 00:12:01.884 --> 00:12:08.114 Sum of monthly active tests was 77 in Ruby versus 20,000 in Java. 00:12:08.183 --> 00:12:11.303 CJ: Yeah, like the, the other hot take, I mean, I think you mentioned this, but 00:12:11.373 --> 00:12:15.333 when we're thinking about these numbers, this is just about employers that are 00:12:15.333 --> 00:12:19.533 using this specific software hacker rank to filter out their candidates. 00:12:19.538 --> 00:12:25.323 And so, I, I remember that when you interview at Google, you are 00:12:25.323 --> 00:12:28.533 only allowed to interview in three languages, at least for like the full 00:12:28.538 --> 00:12:33.303 stack or backend or whatever roles you can do Java, Python or c plus plus. 00:12:33.308 --> 00:12:34.693 And I'm pretty sure that's it. 00:12:34.762 --> 00:12:36.022 For the front end role. 00:12:36.532 --> 00:12:37.372 Yeah, exactly. 00:12:37.377 --> 00:12:40.822 In the front end, the front end role is JavaScript, but like there's 00:12:40.822 --> 00:12:44.422 a chance that, you know, I don't know if Google's using this, but. 00:12:45.542 --> 00:12:49.222 You know, some massive company, Oracle or Salesforce or something is like, oh 00:12:49.222 --> 00:12:52.972 yeah, we're just going to, you know, we do, you know, 9,000 assessments 00:12:52.972 --> 00:12:56.122 every month and we let people pick between Java, Python, and c plus plus. 00:12:56.122 --> 00:12:57.802 And so that's why we see it skewed this way. 00:12:58.372 --> 00:13:00.682 Colin: Yeah, this feels like a little bit of a bias, right? 00:13:00.682 --> 00:13:04.222 Because when I think about Ruby companies and Ruby culture in general, 00:13:04.222 --> 00:13:08.272 I think it hacker rank and leet code is kind of the antithesis of it. 00:13:08.272 --> 00:13:12.022 And that's not to say that we shouldn't be good at algorithmic things or 00:13:12.382 --> 00:13:14.632 computer sciencey type questions, but. 00:13:15.292 --> 00:13:20.333 It's just kind of counter to the the job descriptions I've seen the hiring 00:13:20.333 --> 00:13:22.023 processes that I've been a part of. 00:13:22.074 --> 00:13:24.114 So, you know, take it with a grain of salt. 00:13:24.114 --> 00:13:27.144 It's very similar to what we looked at with the Stack Overflow survey where 00:13:28.479 --> 00:13:31.659 there's a little bit of a confirmation bias where it's like people who go to 00:13:31.659 --> 00:13:33.529 Stack Overflow are looking for an answer. 00:13:33.579 --> 00:13:36.369 They're not necessarily going there as their homepage every day and then 00:13:36.369 --> 00:13:37.699 deciding like, what should I do here? 00:13:37.751 --> 00:13:39.731 It's not like a Twitter for developers. 00:13:39.731 --> 00:13:44.241 It's, it's like, I have a problem and I'm hoping someone can help me with that. 00:13:44.311 --> 00:13:47.311 What other highlights do we see coming out of. 00:13:48.991 --> 00:13:56.631 CJ: Well, I think it's interesting to look at all of the go and type script gains. 00:13:57.021 --> 00:14:00.610 I think go, I mean like obviously go is super fun to write and it's 00:14:00.610 --> 00:14:02.360 picking up speed type script. 00:14:03.255 --> 00:14:06.970 Is a really popular front end language and I think a lot of 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.570 companies and products are building more and more on the front end. 00:14:11.140 --> 00:14:15.580 And so I, you know, maybe five years ago you would have one front 00:14:15.580 --> 00:14:19.720 end engineer to every three backend engineers or something like that, right? 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:24.460 And like now you need more front-end engineers or some in maybe potentially 00:14:24.460 --> 00:14:26.800 fewer backend engineers depending on what stack you're using. 00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:32.482 So I that, that's the type script gains seem like they make sense to me. 00:14:32.552 --> 00:14:37.402 Colin: Yeah, go assessments grew by 300% type script by 392%. 00:14:38.092 --> 00:14:42.472 Granted, when I look at the sum of these numbers, it's like from 160 to 500. 00:14:42.652 --> 00:14:44.882 So we're still not even cracking a thousand. 00:14:44.952 --> 00:14:50.012 But you see companies like GitHub has moved largely from Ruby to go. 00:14:50.082 --> 00:14:53.627 They still have Ruby, I'm sure, but you end up with that. 00:14:54.927 --> 00:14:58.047 But again, I don't know that GitHub uses Hacker Rank, so they may not 00:14:58.047 --> 00:14:59.937 be represented in this either. 00:15:00.417 --> 00:15:00.777 CJ: Right. 00:15:00.897 --> 00:15:01.137 Yep. 00:15:01.900 --> 00:15:06.071 Colin: Swift and Ruby Assessments volume declined for 2022. 00:15:06.071 --> 00:15:10.541 Swift volume is only 80% of what it was, Ruby going down 66%. 00:15:11.081 --> 00:15:15.401 Again, the numbers are so small though that I don't know. 00:15:15.581 --> 00:15:18.701 You know, they, they note that developers have gradually shifted away from 00:15:18.701 --> 00:15:22.451 Ruby, and it's not just surprising to find it fading a bit more here. 00:15:22.991 --> 00:15:26.441 I don't know that like you, and you definitely cannot 00:15:26.441 --> 00:15:28.541 call swift dead like that is. 00:15:29.146 --> 00:15:31.876 The language that you would write an iOS app today. 00:15:31.906 --> 00:15:34.846 Like, I don't think someone's gonna pick up objective C if it's their 00:15:34.846 --> 00:15:38.434 first time you know, unless you used to write objective C for those things. 00:15:38.489 --> 00:15:38.969 CJ: I don't know. 00:15:38.969 --> 00:15:42.962 I wonder if that the swift trend is potentially tied to React 00:15:42.967 --> 00:15:46.352 native and people like, oh yeah, if you can write type script and 00:15:46.352 --> 00:15:47.732 you can write react native code, 00:15:47.952 --> 00:15:48.512 Colin: Right? 00:15:49.642 --> 00:15:51.012 Probably has more to do with it, right? 00:15:51.012 --> 00:15:56.352 Cuz if you are gonna build like a Kotlin app, a Swift app, and then a web app, you 00:15:56.352 --> 00:16:01.812 got a lot of code bases going on instead of that kind of mono repo mobile app. 00:16:02.502 --> 00:16:02.637 CJ: Yeah. 00:16:02.967 --> 00:16:06.047 The other thing to keep in mind too is that like when we looked at the 00:16:06.047 --> 00:16:11.777 Stack Overflow survey, even though certain languages were like decreasing 00:16:11.777 --> 00:16:16.697 in popularity, their salaries were still very high or like increasing. 00:16:16.697 --> 00:16:21.977 And so in my mind I, I see this swift decline as like two things, like one, 00:16:22.377 --> 00:16:26.597 maybe fewer people are actually writing their iOS apps in their Mac apps in 00:16:26.597 --> 00:16:33.017 Swift and two, If you know Swift, then you could probably demand a really high 00:16:33.017 --> 00:16:36.407 salary because you're the one who's gonna be writing all this bridging code 00:16:36.407 --> 00:16:39.377 between like, you know, makos and React 00:16:39.567 --> 00:16:41.717 Colin: you're supporting an existing Swift app, right? 00:16:41.747 --> 00:16:43.847 That they're like, oh, we need to go find somebody. 00:16:43.847 --> 00:16:48.297 I remember this when, oh man, flash was going away. 00:16:48.321 --> 00:16:49.426 And I was afl. 00:16:49.936 --> 00:16:52.685 I build myself as an Adobe Flex developer and. 00:16:53.370 --> 00:16:57.450 The amazing thing is I got so many projects because Flex kind 00:16:57.450 --> 00:17:01.620 of immediately fell out of favor with just JavaScript, right? 00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:05.250 Became the thing, and all of a sudden I was getting all these requests for people 00:17:05.250 --> 00:17:09.480 who had paid some company to build them a flex app, and they couldn't adopt it. 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:12.360 And I, I think Salesforce was pushing Flex for a really long time, which 00:17:12.360 --> 00:17:16.320 is why I got into it and just Wow. 00:17:16.350 --> 00:17:17.100 Like it's. 00:17:17.805 --> 00:17:20.525 It's weird to think about that, but yeah, it's gonna be like Fortran 00:17:20.525 --> 00:17:24.505 developers and things like that, are in demand to support legacy systems. 00:17:24.565 --> 00:17:28.295 And mobile apps are in, by no means legacy systems yet, but 00:17:28.625 --> 00:17:31.065 if someone's not supporting it, then that's, that's a big one. 00:17:31.135 --> 00:17:35.005 You mentioned this with being able to, to test in three different 00:17:35.005 --> 00:17:38.845 languages, but the top skill that's in demand is problem solving. 00:17:38.845 --> 00:17:42.985 And I think we can all agree in all these surveys that it doesn't matter 00:17:42.985 --> 00:17:44.455 necessarily what language you're in. 00:17:44.965 --> 00:17:49.720 If you can problem solve, and like you said with your job at my vr, 00:17:50.515 --> 00:17:54.565 pick up Python as you go because you know kind of how to solve that. 00:17:56.290 --> 00:17:56.665 CJ: Yeah, totally. 00:17:56.665 --> 00:17:58.855 And I, the other, the other interesting one was that machine 00:17:58.855 --> 00:18:03.535 learning is just crushing it, like, you know, problem solving. 00:18:03.865 --> 00:18:08.575 I think obviously everyone wants that even outside of software development, right? 00:18:08.580 --> 00:18:12.685 Like you're, you'll want people that are smart, that are on your team 00:18:12.730 --> 00:18:15.449 Colin: Tech support PMs, any of those things. 00:18:15.674 --> 00:18:16.334 CJ: Exactly. 00:18:16.544 --> 00:18:21.155 And so right on the tails of problem solving is machine learning in holy 00:18:21.155 --> 00:18:25.944 moly, this like last couple months we've been seeing just onslaught of 00:18:25.944 --> 00:18:30.214 machine learning apps and projects and things coming out that are so cool. 00:18:30.286 --> 00:18:32.326 All of the stuff that levels, like Peter Levels did. 00:18:33.241 --> 00:18:39.879 Super neat, but also like Jasper AI and or yeah, like the copy, copy ai, all of these 00:18:39.879 --> 00:18:45.799 different machine learning tools that help you author blog posts or create images or 00:18:45.868 --> 00:18:47.078 Colin: GitHub co-pilot. 00:18:47.573 --> 00:18:47.933 CJ: Yep. 00:18:48.023 --> 00:18:52.324 Github co-pilot and there's like ghost writer that's on Replit. 00:18:52.344 --> 00:18:55.624 All of these different machine learning tools are just like mind blowing. 00:18:55.624 --> 00:18:58.944 Colin: Did you see the announcement the GitHub voice announcement, 00:18:59.724 --> 00:19:02.574 CJ: No, I need to catch up on GitHub Universe. 00:19:02.964 --> 00:19:03.324 Colin: Yeah. 00:19:03.954 --> 00:19:06.204 I don't know if it's gonna be a thing that actually gets released 00:19:06.209 --> 00:19:09.384 as much as like a research project, but being able to kind of dictate 00:19:09.384 --> 00:19:11.454 what you want to do and like vs. 00:19:11.459 --> 00:19:13.354 Code is like just doing it. 00:19:13.423 --> 00:19:14.233 CJ: That's mind blowing. 00:19:16.003 --> 00:19:16.098 Yeah. 00:19:16.518 --> 00:19:21.397 if you haven't already seen to Emily Shea, she's a old friend of mine. 00:19:21.402 --> 00:19:27.067 She has a talk called Whale Quench where, so she had some like really bad rsi. 00:19:27.136 --> 00:19:32.146 Injuries and so she started like voice coding a long time ago. 00:19:32.146 --> 00:19:35.026 I'm like, I think like 2013, 2014 or something. 00:19:35.596 --> 00:19:40.276 And she has this talk that she gives about using, I think it's dragon. 00:19:40.866 --> 00:19:44.826 Dragon something, dragon dictate or whatever to write code. 00:19:45.066 --> 00:19:50.106 And it is so cool how they just use all these different words that represent 00:19:50.106 --> 00:19:53.916 letters or commands and then like are able to compose them in certain ways. 00:19:53.916 --> 00:19:57.066 It sounds like they're speaking a completely different, like alien language. 00:19:57.121 --> 00:19:57.541 Colin: Wow. 00:19:58.111 --> 00:20:01.831 I'm sure it's similar to like a stenographer, like in a court, right? 00:20:01.831 --> 00:20:05.671 Where they're like typing super fast and they, they have all these shortcuts and 00:20:06.301 --> 00:20:07.771 CJ: Yes, exactly. 00:20:07.771 --> 00:20:08.311 Exactly. 00:20:08.311 --> 00:20:12.361 So I can imagine that, you know, one day writing code becomes like that. 00:20:12.361 --> 00:20:15.031 You know, when you're live streaming and you're explaining all the stuff 00:20:15.031 --> 00:20:18.211 that you're doing, you're already saying it, and you have to type 00:20:18.211 --> 00:20:20.461 it and you have to think about the syntax and you have to think about 00:20:20.461 --> 00:20:21.481 like all these different things. 00:20:21.481 --> 00:20:24.991 If you could just say it, that would be, yeah, that would be pretty killer. 00:20:25.712 --> 00:20:29.582 Colin: number three, top skill in demand is near and dear 00:20:29.582 --> 00:20:30.692 to both of our hearts here. 00:20:30.692 --> 00:20:32.312 Rest APIs, which. 00:20:32.972 --> 00:20:34.712 You just can't escape them these days. 00:20:34.762 --> 00:20:35.062 CJ: Yeah. 00:20:35.067 --> 00:20:40.192 And I think even like REST API goes beyond just, or beyond APIs all the way into. 00:20:41.032 --> 00:20:45.472 A standard web application, like even when you're, you know, the browser 00:20:45.472 --> 00:20:49.312 is going to request the page and it's giving back H T M L and like what 00:20:49.317 --> 00:20:52.342 are the content types and what is the serialization and des sterilization, 00:20:52.342 --> 00:20:55.792 how do you hydrate and is this server side rendered or client Yeah, exactly. 00:20:55.792 --> 00:20:57.472 Like all of, yeah, exactly. 00:20:57.472 --> 00:21:01.972 Authentication and cookies and headers and all of that stuff is like part of, 00:21:02.092 --> 00:21:03.982 or it's like a super set of rest APIs. 00:21:03.982 --> 00:21:04.222 Right. 00:21:04.222 --> 00:21:04.462 And I 00:21:04.462 --> 00:21:04.882 think. 00:21:05.632 --> 00:21:09.532 You know, testing people on what they know about rest APIs makes a lot of sense 00:21:09.532 --> 00:21:12.382 to me because it's so fundamental to web 00:21:13.072 --> 00:21:13.432 Colin: Yeah. 00:21:13.852 --> 00:21:16.522 What I, what I love about this is that they say that it shows 00:21:16.527 --> 00:21:19.112 sustained drama, free demand growth. 00:21:19.141 --> 00:21:20.561 And I think this is because it. 00:21:21.541 --> 00:21:24.961 Kind of devoid of the language battles and all these things 00:21:24.961 --> 00:21:27.121 that happened at the same time. 00:21:27.121 --> 00:21:31.771 Like I feel like GraphQL was trying to overtake rest APIs for a while and 00:21:31.771 --> 00:21:35.671 we've just been this back and forth on, you know, whether or not that's 00:21:35.676 --> 00:21:37.171 gonna be the new paradigm or not. 00:21:37.176 --> 00:21:39.071 Cause there's a lot of pros and cons to both. 00:21:39.122 --> 00:21:42.422 But I don't see GraphQL on this top skills and demand. 00:21:42.422 --> 00:21:44.072 You know, I know Shopify uses it. 00:21:44.072 --> 00:21:45.162 I know GitHub uses it. 00:21:45.162 --> 00:21:50.622 CJ: I also read that as like drama free, meaning like boring, like Yeah, 00:21:50.622 --> 00:21:55.077 it's, it's like a nice way to say like, yes, this is just like the bread and 00:21:55.077 --> 00:21:58.747 butter boring stuff that everyone needs to know and kind of like table stakes 00:21:58.815 --> 00:22:00.855 Colin: I think we all agree on that, which is crazy. 00:22:00.945 --> 00:22:03.135 That's like our, that's how we break bread now. 00:22:03.435 --> 00:22:05.925 It's like, hey, we're having a conversation about 00:22:05.930 --> 00:22:06.585 something we don't agree. 00:22:06.585 --> 00:22:07.945 Let's bring up rest APIs. 00:22:08.016 --> 00:22:11.976 And at the bottom, the, the fifth one is also I would imagine very drama free, 00:22:11.976 --> 00:22:14.596 which is HTML, CSS and Java Script. 00:22:14.647 --> 00:22:16.747 Just like plain vanilla. 00:22:16.747 --> 00:22:17.977 Everything's built that way. 00:22:17.977 --> 00:22:19.487 It's the bricks, the foundation. 00:22:19.538 --> 00:22:23.759 But between rest APIs and HTML and css, we get the, the slightly more 00:22:23.764 --> 00:22:26.409 drama filled skill, which is react. 00:22:26.459 --> 00:22:32.279 Which I think the drama more comes from just the, the number of libraries and 00:22:32.969 --> 00:22:37.049 angular and all these other different options that you can go down these days. 00:22:37.569 --> 00:22:42.464 CJ: Yeah, it's like centralized and you know, does Versace own it 00:22:42.464 --> 00:22:44.264 or does you know, Facebook own it? 00:22:44.269 --> 00:22:45.374 Is it unowned? 00:22:45.404 --> 00:22:48.224 You know, there's all this like remix versus Next JS stuff 00:22:48.229 --> 00:22:49.844 going on in the React community. 00:22:49.844 --> 00:22:51.174 So, yeah. 00:22:51.244 --> 00:22:51.914 totally. 00:22:52.904 --> 00:22:56.384 Colin: Yeah, I would say like we used to have that kind of drama in the 00:22:56.474 --> 00:23:01.214 rails in Ruby Land, but we haven't, I guess we we're, we're not afraid 00:23:01.214 --> 00:23:04.454 of drama in that world either, but, you know, it hasn't, hasn't been 00:23:04.454 --> 00:23:06.714 as much since like the MEB days or. 00:23:06.783 --> 00:23:10.383 You know, different forks of rails and ruby and all that kind of stuff. 00:23:10.383 --> 00:23:12.984 But so yeah, it looks like in general, like I would definitely 00:23:12.984 --> 00:23:14.514 take a look at these top five skills. 00:23:14.574 --> 00:23:17.844 And I think they also mentioned just that like people are really 00:23:17.934 --> 00:23:21.694 looking at adding data science to their skillset no matter what you do. 00:23:21.763 --> 00:23:25.543 I'm working on a project right now where I'm like, wishing I had more data science 00:23:25.543 --> 00:23:27.483 background because I'm trying to find. 00:23:28.598 --> 00:23:29.478 Interesting data sets. 00:23:29.598 --> 00:23:32.628 I have a giant data set how do I find out what's interesting? 00:23:33.288 --> 00:23:34.458 CJ: Yeah, totally. 00:23:34.518 --> 00:23:38.207 Or you can, it's easier now to like come up with a question and be like I wonder 00:23:38.207 --> 00:23:46.497 how many, you know, voters in this state didn't vote this year because of their 00:23:46.497 --> 00:23:47.907 coffee preference change or whatever. 00:23:47.907 --> 00:23:51.537 Like you can there, I forget what website it is, but there's, there's 00:23:51.537 --> 00:23:55.756 another kind of machine learning site where you can just like give 00:23:55.756 --> 00:23:59.686 it your question and then it'll spit out the sequel that you need to run. 00:24:00.166 --> 00:24:00.736 Colin: Nice. 00:24:02.271 --> 00:24:05.222 CJ: But yeah, the data scientists that I've worked with at Stripe have just been 00:24:05.222 --> 00:24:08.552 like, mind-blowingly good at this stuff and some of the dashboards they make, I'm 00:24:08.552 --> 00:24:13.022 like, how in the, like, I, I thought that I was okay at sql, but holy moly, this is 00:24:13.027 --> 00:24:18.200 like, yeah, some really mind-blowing you know, insights that they can figure out. 00:24:18.205 --> 00:24:22.476 It's like knowing the question and then also being able to translate that 00:24:22.481 --> 00:24:25.585 question into like the code that you need to write and then being able to 00:24:26.195 --> 00:24:31.096 validate and verify, like, okay, yes, that answer does line up with the question. 00:24:32.071 --> 00:24:36.061 Colin: Yeah, the thing that I'm gonna just throw out, this is for free for anyone who 00:24:36.061 --> 00:24:40.471 wants to build it cuz I don't even know where to start, is that I think about this 00:24:40.471 --> 00:24:42.451 a lot with rest APIs and integrations. 00:24:42.451 --> 00:24:47.431 Like, I don't know why we couldn't have a DALL-E for integrations at some point. 00:24:47.431 --> 00:24:51.541 Like if the docs and the spec is good enough and you know what the 00:24:51.541 --> 00:24:52.921 models are and you know it all. 00:24:53.941 --> 00:24:56.776 If I just want to integrate with a thing, why are we writing all 00:24:56.776 --> 00:24:57.836 this glue code all the time? 00:24:57.886 --> 00:25:00.166 Especially when like GitHub co. 00:25:00.256 --> 00:25:01.696 Like sometimes I'll write a test. 00:25:03.176 --> 00:25:06.736 Or rather, I'll write the code and then I'll write a comment in the spec 00:25:06.796 --> 00:25:11.566 and in rspec it almost always lately has like just written the test for me. 00:25:11.926 --> 00:25:15.766 Now I go back and I tear it down and read like think through what it's 00:25:15.766 --> 00:25:19.696 doing so that I'm not just blindly accepting it, but I'm like, yeah, that 00:25:19.701 --> 00:25:21.406 is exactly what I was trying to do. 00:25:21.436 --> 00:25:25.516 And I don't know if it's aware, if it's more aware because I 00:25:25.516 --> 00:25:27.016 just wrote the code for it. 00:25:27.016 --> 00:25:29.356 And obviously in this case I didn't write the test first 00:25:29.956 --> 00:25:33.331 because, But I would be curious if he goes the other way around, like, can I write 00:25:33.331 --> 00:25:37.811 the test first and then go into the class and see if it'll help me generate that? 00:25:37.882 --> 00:25:40.102 And it kind of depends on what you're building, but I think it would be 00:25:40.102 --> 00:25:45.662 really cool, like if, like with levels, like he's generating interiors for 00:25:45.667 --> 00:25:47.222 people based on their current interior. 00:25:47.222 --> 00:25:50.312 Like why can't we say like, I want Slack and Twitter to talk to each. 00:25:51.092 --> 00:25:53.682 Dolly, tell me what you think that should look like 00:25:53.807 --> 00:25:54.417 CJ: Mm-hmm. 00:25:54.497 --> 00:25:54.817 Mm. 00:25:55.352 --> 00:25:58.352 Colin: and just keep pressing generate until it gets to where we want it. 00:25:59.362 --> 00:25:59.657 CJ: Totally. 00:25:59.867 --> 00:26:02.176 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 00:26:02.176 --> 00:26:02.926 And I think you're right. 00:26:02.926 --> 00:26:07.396 Like co-pilot seems to have gotten better over the last six months of using it. 00:26:07.636 --> 00:26:13.846 And now I'm definitely finding where like if I am writing an interface in one 00:26:13.946 --> 00:26:18.496 file and then I'm using the interface in another file, like it, it gets 00:26:18.496 --> 00:26:20.386 smarter about all the different things. 00:26:20.391 --> 00:26:25.906 So like one example was, I was saying like, Oh, I, on my video model, I 00:26:25.906 --> 00:26:31.486 have a view count and initially GitHub was auto completing to like video 00:26:31.486 --> 00:26:36.166 dot views, but as soon as I added view count to the other file, it like 00:26:36.171 --> 00:26:39.616 changed its auto completion suggestion to be view count instead of views. 00:26:39.616 --> 00:26:43.426 And it just, yeah, it, it's getting, it's getting smarter for sure, which is pretty 00:26:43.576 --> 00:26:46.186 Colin: And we've always had like IntelliSense, but this is like a 00:26:46.186 --> 00:26:49.336 next level where it's like trying to think one more step further. 00:26:49.816 --> 00:26:52.396 Like, oh, I'm gonna map all these values for you. 00:26:52.401 --> 00:26:53.296 I'm like, oh, that was nice. 00:26:53.296 --> 00:26:54.316 I wouldn't have thought to do that. 00:26:55.591 --> 00:26:56.191 CJ: Exactly. 00:26:56.191 --> 00:26:58.741 And a lot of that intelligence was powered by having a really 00:26:58.741 --> 00:27:00.261 strongly typed language. 00:27:00.266 --> 00:27:00.331 Right? 00:27:00.331 --> 00:27:02.731 Like if you're writing in C Sharp and you have in Intes sense, like 00:27:02.986 --> 00:27:03.106 Colin: Yeah. 00:27:03.106 --> 00:27:03.646 You know what 00:27:03.751 --> 00:27:03.961 CJ: Cause 00:27:04.066 --> 00:27:04.426 Colin: you have. 00:27:05.101 --> 00:27:05.701 CJ: Exactly. 00:27:05.701 --> 00:27:09.031 But like the fact that it can do it without types is kind of wild. 00:27:09.271 --> 00:27:12.111 So yeah. 00:27:13.411 --> 00:27:15.901 Colin: So I think all these kind of lead up into what you were 00:27:15.901 --> 00:27:20.051 mentioning at the top of the show about tech layoffs and demand. 00:27:20.102 --> 00:27:21.422 They definitely saw this. 00:27:21.452 --> 00:27:25.652 I would say this probably was compiled before a lot of the layoffs happened, but. 00:27:26.042 --> 00:27:29.982 That tech hiring and pretty much everything else hit headwinds in 2022. 00:27:30.032 --> 00:27:31.742 The economy has slowed down. 00:27:31.742 --> 00:27:36.482 There are people talking about recession, however, they do see an overall trend 00:27:36.542 --> 00:27:38.442 of tech industry continuing to grow. 00:27:38.473 --> 00:27:40.123 I don't know if in their case that means. 00:27:40.513 --> 00:27:44.263 More assessments or more job descriptions or what that is. 00:27:44.263 --> 00:27:47.773 But you know, I know a lot of big companies are having q, you 00:27:47.773 --> 00:27:49.873 know, hiring phrases through q1. 00:27:50.293 --> 00:27:54.643 So in my mind, like it's the holiday season, definitely take a 00:27:54.643 --> 00:27:56.443 break, things like that coming up. 00:27:57.013 --> 00:27:59.323 But it's also a really good time to sharpen your tools, 00:27:59.323 --> 00:28:01.063 learn some new skills like. 00:28:01.918 --> 00:28:05.218 Go find some courses, watch some YouTube videos, check out 00:28:05.218 --> 00:28:06.848 CJ's channel, things like that. 00:28:06.898 --> 00:28:13.378 Because when those start to, I guess, thaw out and hiring freezes and, you know, I 00:28:13.378 --> 00:28:17.578 think being ready for those, if you're new to the industry or looking to make a 00:28:17.578 --> 00:28:22.308 career change I wouldn't necessarily go off of this list of programming languages, 00:28:22.308 --> 00:28:24.078 but I would look at the top skills. 00:28:24.648 --> 00:28:28.098 And maybe think about, you know, adding some machine learning or, you know, 00:28:28.098 --> 00:28:31.638 even just do a fun project on and see if you even like working with, you 00:28:31.638 --> 00:28:33.448 know, those kinds of models and things. 00:28:33.499 --> 00:28:36.849 Sentiment analysis is a good place to usually start on a project like that. 00:28:37.789 --> 00:28:38.179 CJ: Mm. 00:28:39.439 --> 00:28:40.339 Yeah, it's interesting. 00:28:40.949 --> 00:28:44.118 The one of the things that they call out in the state of the industry 00:28:44.118 --> 00:28:49.488 in the report is a breakdown of the different types of candidates. 00:28:49.518 --> 00:28:53.448 And again, this could be skewing based on the companies that are on here 00:28:53.448 --> 00:28:54.648 or whatever, but it, it's like, oh. 00:28:55.578 --> 00:28:58.968 The assessments are incre, like the number of assessments are increasing 00:28:58.968 --> 00:29:04.428 for data scientists and decreasing a lot for full stack engineers. 00:29:04.548 --> 00:29:08.418 And I think that peer signal of just like, okay, data science is 00:29:08.418 --> 00:29:10.398 in, software engineers are out. 00:29:10.848 --> 00:29:16.368 I think it's much harder to pivot into a data science role from, you know, 00:29:16.548 --> 00:29:21.558 someone who's outside of tech than it is for a software engineer who's like 00:29:21.678 --> 00:29:25.817 relative or like somewhat interested in data to be like, okay, yeah. 00:29:25.817 --> 00:29:26.807 Like I'm, I'm now. 00:29:27.437 --> 00:29:30.767 Have learned a little bit more sequel and I know how to mess around with some 00:29:30.767 --> 00:29:32.517 of these hugging face model things. 00:29:32.517 --> 00:29:33.857 The hugging face transformers. 00:29:33.857 --> 00:29:36.857 That was like in the Stack Overflow survey. 00:29:36.862 --> 00:29:38.117 We were like, what is this? 00:29:39.287 --> 00:29:39.647 Yeah. 00:29:39.677 --> 00:29:45.797 I think the, also the, the Open AI API has gotten, I mean, it's, it's making it 00:29:45.797 --> 00:29:48.917 surprisingly easy to interact with these. 00:29:49.577 --> 00:29:50.117 Models. 00:29:50.122 --> 00:29:53.957 So like just hitting up G p T three through an API and saying like, 00:29:54.497 --> 00:29:55.907 do this thing, here's my prompt. 00:29:55.907 --> 00:29:59.687 And then getting back the data over an API is like kind of crazy because 00:29:59.687 --> 00:30:04.387 you can build a lot of these you know, tools that are writing copy for you or 00:30:04.477 --> 00:30:07.297 building blog posts or, you know, help me 00:30:08.257 --> 00:30:11.207 suggest a bunch of different titles for this video or whatever. 00:30:11.276 --> 00:30:15.626 Colin: Facebook Research Division released like a video where they 00:30:15.626 --> 00:30:18.636 can actually, based on a prompt, they can generate video now. 00:30:19.566 --> 00:30:20.346 So, 00:30:20.586 --> 00:30:21.066 CJ: That's super 00:30:21.216 --> 00:30:24.576 Colin: and when I think about Peter levels, what he did with the interior, 00:30:24.576 --> 00:30:27.876 like you're talking about content like text, text is pretty cheap. 00:30:27.876 --> 00:30:32.196 Like the, I think they were tweeting about their server rendering bills 00:30:32.316 --> 00:30:37.056 for rendering out all of these interiors and like, I really want to 00:30:37.056 --> 00:30:40.806 go try it with my, my house, just to like, I'll have to see if he's got 00:30:40.806 --> 00:30:42.396 like a mid-century modern feature. 00:30:42.756 --> 00:30:46.566 It's like, I just want, you know, super minimal clean lines. 00:30:46.866 --> 00:30:49.096 Tell me what, and then next tell me what furniture to buy. 00:30:49.166 --> 00:30:50.261 CJ: That's totally coming, right? 00:30:50.261 --> 00:30:52.271 Like, yeah. 00:30:53.171 --> 00:30:53.501 Yeah. 00:30:53.501 --> 00:30:54.461 It's, I don't know. 00:30:54.611 --> 00:30:59.291 Well, I, I wonder too, like all that, the Facebook's prowess, I wonder how 00:30:59.531 --> 00:31:03.611 impacted it's gonna be through all of these layoffs from Meta and the fact 00:31:03.611 --> 00:31:06.851 that like, I think they got dinged pretty hard for all of their investment 00:31:06.851 --> 00:31:08.771 that they put into the Metaverse. 00:31:09.371 --> 00:31:11.531 And so I think there was a lot of cool stuff that was coming 00:31:11.531 --> 00:31:14.081 out of that that could have been really, really interesting. 00:31:14.351 --> 00:31:16.961 And it's a bummer that that innovation. 00:31:18.191 --> 00:31:20.051 A little slow, maybe a little bit. 00:31:20.051 --> 00:31:20.441 I don't know. 00:31:20.621 --> 00:31:20.741 We'll 00:31:21.686 --> 00:31:25.286 Colin: Yeah, I mean, he's not been shy about saying that he's not backing down 00:31:25.286 --> 00:31:28.586 from the metaverse, but the amount of money that they had been pouring into it 00:31:28.586 --> 00:31:33.246 was more, I don't know if it's more than all of the iPhones put together, but it. 00:31:33.806 --> 00:31:34.746 It's considerable. 00:31:34.751 --> 00:31:37.436 Like it's, it's on like Apollo mission level budget. 00:31:37.555 --> 00:31:42.265 Literally, like I actually think it was more than the whole Apollo program. 00:31:42.265 --> 00:31:45.235 Like I'll have to find these stats so I'm not completely making this 00:31:45.235 --> 00:31:48.445 up, but like the amount of money that they spent has been insane and they 00:31:48.445 --> 00:31:49.945 don't have a lot to show for it yet. 00:31:50.485 --> 00:31:53.845 But, you know, if you think that's where we're gonna go, like we're talking 00:31:53.845 --> 00:31:58.225 about talking to our computers, I still think that talking to a computer and 00:31:58.225 --> 00:31:59.785 things like AR are probably gonna. 00:32:00.670 --> 00:32:05.530 Before we get, you know, this kind of slightly dystopian like coding inside 00:32:05.530 --> 00:32:10.390 of a VR headset and like, you know, but at the same time you and I are 00:32:10.390 --> 00:32:14.560 separated by a whole country and being able to like put on two headsets and, 00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:19.330 you know, jump into even like what does a podcast studio look like in vr, right? 00:32:19.335 --> 00:32:22.060 And having all the stuff that we need and the mixers and all that 00:32:22.060 --> 00:32:23.600 stuff would be kind of interesting. 00:32:24.155 --> 00:32:24.645 CJ: What? 00:32:24.645 --> 00:32:26.775 Yeah, I was super skeptical of this whole metaverse thing. 00:32:26.775 --> 00:32:30.645 I was like, it's not gonna, I don't see how this is gonna take hold as 00:32:30.825 --> 00:32:35.055 the gaming sort of, oh, you're gonna, you know, join with your friends and 00:32:35.055 --> 00:32:37.845 hang out with them and like, you're gonna sit at a table and visit or 00:32:37.905 --> 00:32:39.135 have, you know, like your Zoom call. 00:32:39.495 --> 00:32:43.995 But when I heard about the idea that this VR headset could sort of replace your 00:32:43.995 --> 00:32:48.885 computer monitor and like you could use that as a way to visualize everything. 00:32:49.695 --> 00:32:52.185 That really kind of blew my mind a little bit. 00:32:52.190 --> 00:32:55.455 Cause I was like, oh, now you just have like infinite space 00:32:55.455 --> 00:32:56.985 for what you want to see. 00:32:57.015 --> 00:33:00.345 And like then you can start having the input to your brain. 00:33:00.405 --> 00:33:03.615 Like the bandwidth of the input to your brain just goes up so much 00:33:03.615 --> 00:33:06.645 because now you can just start sucking in a, a bunch of different things. 00:33:06.645 --> 00:33:09.465 Like for instance, during this call, like while we're recording 00:33:09.465 --> 00:33:11.335 this, I'm command tabbing. 00:33:11.355 --> 00:33:15.345 I have two giant monitors up and I'm command tapping between the hacker 00:33:15.345 --> 00:33:19.305 rank survey, between our notes for the podcast and between the Zencaster 00:33:19.305 --> 00:33:24.555 recording studio and like being able to just kinda like look around and see all 00:33:24.555 --> 00:33:26.205 of that would be pretty, pretty cool. 00:33:26.790 --> 00:33:26.985 Colin: Totally. 00:33:27.405 --> 00:33:30.285 And I, I think like what that would look like for programming, 00:33:30.345 --> 00:33:34.155 like even when we take the voice component of that and like, show me. 00:33:35.230 --> 00:33:37.725 Like you can just describe a data set like we were saying, and then 00:33:37.725 --> 00:33:39.465 just show me the summary of it. 00:33:39.465 --> 00:33:43.485 Or, or like, I want the item to describe it now, assign that to a variable 00:33:43.485 --> 00:33:45.105 and I'm gonna use that in my app. 00:33:45.105 --> 00:33:45.285 Right. 00:33:45.285 --> 00:33:46.035 Things like that. 00:33:46.035 --> 00:33:49.215 So I think we should definitely do an episode on the Metaverse. 00:33:49.275 --> 00:33:51.325 I think there's a lot of fun things to talk about there. 00:33:51.396 --> 00:33:55.656 Whether we, and I think we haven't touched it, but like there's some similar. 00:33:56.501 --> 00:34:00.731 With Metaverse and like Crypto and NFTs and Web three and all that 00:34:00.731 --> 00:34:03.851 kind of stuff, which we might need to find a guest for Web three. 00:34:03.941 --> 00:34:08.531 I don't know that I have not touched it for a lot of reasons, but I'm a 00:34:08.536 --> 00:34:11.351 little bit of a crypto skeptic on a lot of that stuff, but I think 00:34:11.351 --> 00:34:14.861 there's some interesting things to talk about with the future for sure. 00:34:15.231 --> 00:34:16.311 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:34:16.491 --> 00:34:16.821 Yeah. 00:34:16.851 --> 00:34:18.590 I think all, all fun topics. 00:34:18.590 --> 00:34:22.820 They're all super fun topics and like whatever, you know, just to, I think I 00:34:22.825 --> 00:34:26.919 get excited about what the future holds and what the possibilities are and yeah. 00:34:26.979 --> 00:34:29.909 So I think it's gonna be an exciting decade ahead of us despite the 00:34:29.909 --> 00:34:31.469 current economic environment. 00:34:31.994 --> 00:34:32.714 Colin: Absolutely. 00:34:32.984 --> 00:34:36.534 So well, thanks for listening to this episode of Build and Learn. 00:34:36.560 --> 00:34:41.115 As always, you can head over to buildandlearn.dev to check out all the 00:34:41.115 --> 00:34:42.855 links and resources in the show notes. 00:34:43.965 --> 00:34:45.465 CJ: That's all for this episode, folks. 00:34:45.615 --> 00:34:46.395 We'll see you next time.