[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee

[00:00:14] Dan: You are, and unlike me, as you can tell, uh, you, you, I've got, um, I have a little bit of, bit of the lug at the moment, so my voice is not really podcast ready, but, uh, 

[00:00:24] Pia: Or you should be on a different type of podcast. It, it sounds a bit sexy.

[00:00:29] Dan: Premium services? Yeah. Maybe, maybe. But, um, yeah, it's, it's been around, there's, as we always say, one of the sort of stock phrases in Britain is, oh, there's something, there's not something nasty going around.

[00:00:41] Pia: Yeah, exactly. And you've got it.

[00:00:42] Dan: Yeah, I've got it. Exactly. So it grabbed me. So yes. But, uh, but things are, things are getting, things are improving here and

[00:00:48] Pia: You're getting a bit of light,

[00:00:49] Dan: Getting a bit of light. Exactly.

[00:00:51] Pia: Uh, spring is springing and so it must be time to go back to Italy then, must be yearning a bit of blue

[00:00:56] Dan: We'd start to pine a little bit more at this time of year and it's, um, beautiful. In the, we're being sort of a ginger and a blonde, we, we don't, don't do sun very well. Um, so we, so the, those shoulder seasons may and September are lovely. So we'll be back for a little bit of time there, which is very, we're very lucky.

[00:01:13] Pia: And you were telling me that when you were last down there, you were ogling at some very large

[00:01:20] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. We do this, it's, it's a strange thing. We started doing this on holiday. We're sort of just, whenever you're in a city on the coast, you can sort of like Genoa, you can, you go down and look at these immense boats and the fun thing is you can Google them. And find out who owns them and find out what they, what they were last sold for, and how much they cost to rent per week and everything. So, but they're insanely enormous. But I've always find it fun to look at the people on and around those places often in Immaculate shorts and, uh, sort of what would be sort of, um, what's the word? Branded, um, polo shirts and things like that. So they're, they're all looking so young and healthy and, and sort of, um, uh, leaping about the face. And also some very scary looking bodyguards on some of them, particularly the Russian oligarch owns, uh, owned, um, owned yachts. But, um, yeah, so that's fun. And of course, Is a brilliant setup for our show today. Um,

[00:02:17] Pia: is. Because I didn't have to go very far to, cuz we thought, what goes on below deck? What happens on those boats? So what's the teamwork like? And so, My lovely nephew, Jens Lee, um, has spent the last five years working on those boats. So we thought we'd get him onto the show to tell us a little bit like what, what's the teamwork? Like, what's, what's the, what's some of the challenges that you face? So he's, let's, let's go over now and hear from him and, um, and understand some of his pirate stories.

[00:02:53] 

[00:02:53] Dan: Jens, thank you so much for joining us. It's lovely to see 

[00:03:00] Jens: Well of privilege. Thank you very much for having me. I'm a longtime listener and this is so very special.

[00:03:07] Pia: Oh,

[00:03:09] Dan: Well, yeah, thank you. As you've made us, you make us feel so grown up.

[00:03:12] Pia: and, and I'll say, and you are my, um, you are my, my favorite nephew as well, which of course I know then every, all my other nephews and nieces be, what about me? What.

[00:03:21] Dan: Hold on a 

[00:03:22] Jens: Yeah, 

[00:03:23] Dan: Yes. Excellent. So you come clearly from excellent stock and I'm now gonna test that by giving you a question, uh, a um, conversation starter card, which I have, I have in my hand a little pack. I've given them a little shuffle. Um, and I've gotta pluck one. Come on, let's go. oh, this is a sweet one, one small thing that makes my day better. 

[00:03:43] Jens: Oh, I'm gonna guess this could be quite boring. Well, one answer is definitely at the minute. It was a, it's a run, which I think is pretty, boring. But, what else? Off the top of my head,

[00:03:54] Dan: Let's talk about that because I think, you know, you are, you were gonna find that you travel a fair bit. How, where, how far do you tend to run? How do you keep up your discipline? What, what, what do you do? What does that look like? Just dive into that little habit for a minute for us 

[00:04:07] Jens: Yeah, no, for sure. So it all depends if I'm at home or at sea. When you're running. Sea, its can be quite, uh, treacher, especially on a treadmill. The, uh, on you, on the high seas. It goes, the, the gradients go from, I think from, you know, a couple of meters to, you know, to below. So it's usually only a matter of minutes before you know, I fall off or, or, you know, But at home? At home, I'm a bit, it's a bit more intensified. It's, um, you know, I try and do, uh, at least 10 K every, you know, two or three, three days or so, and it's just, it's nothing, it's nothing for, it's, it's just personal, you know, no real goal set's. Just, you know, to get in better shape and, you know, have a healthier mind. I think it, and, um,

[00:04:46] Pia: It is like, so Dan, Dan and I have read this book called Atomic Habits. That's why we're asking, which is a really good, like all those little things that you do that just actually just as you say, keep you in, keep you in good shape. and um, and a good for the mine too.

[00:05:00] Dan: Yeah, and I think the fact that you've made the treadmill sound, uh, actually treacherous already, it probably sets us up for the conversation.

[00:05:09] Pia: So Jens, you, you are, you are a real life mariner, which , which is very exciting and have, and have made a career at sea. And that, that, that's why we really wanted to. Get you on the show to talk about how teams and people organize themselves on a very large vessel, which you're going to tell us more about. So tell us, bring us into your world. Tell us a little bit about what you do, how you got there, and you.

[00:05:41] Jens: Okay. Yeah. So, um, a little bit about me. Um, I think, well, I grew up in the middle of the countryside, many, many, uh, miles away from the sea with two very sort of adventurous parents, uh, which I think sort of began my spark early on in life. Um, I sort of, growing up, I made sort of, um, quite bold choices, I think. My siblings sort of testified to that, you know, whether it would be random food choices or, or, or, or clothing or something like that. I'm sure even you Pia, that you can testify.

[00:06:12] Uh, but one sort of bold choice in particular was to, um, to leave university about four and a half years ago. Uh, I wasn't very happy with my life or where it was going, so I thought, you know, I, I hit, hit a crossroad as, you know, so many people do at that age, and I had to sort of, um, strip myself down and, and sort of walk around naked and sort of figure out, you know, figure out, you know, who I was and what I valued in life. And that's what eventually left, led me to, um, uh, to the sea, to yachting. 

[00:06:43] You know, so I fast forward five years, 2018, and I enjoy the industry. I joined as a, you know, as a, as a greenie as I'd call it. You know, for you, you don't understand that Greenie as someone who has no experience at all. Um, bit of, bit of background in sailing. I wasn't, you know, the best I'd say, uh, but I naturally felt that side, side of the, of the industry. so offering up my services as, as a sort pro bono, again, experience and now sort of, you know, five years later, I'm now working as a, a deck engineer. Just actually newly promoted tech engineer onboard at a nice 85 meter luxurious yacht.

[00:07:21] And, I mean, along the way I've had some immeasurable experience. You know, I've worked from, um, small little sailing bases, as I've said, to a hundred meter megayachts I've gone from living in a, in a, in a, in a naval military base to, to living in thriving sort of metropolis, to sailing across the Atlantic, to working in heavy, uh, industrial shipyards, um, you know, to catering for world leaders and a-list Hollywood stars and, uh, you know, meeting pirates and ex special forces. It's crazy and yeah, and even actually I managed to beat the prince at volleyball, which that's the one I'm particularly proud of.

[00:07:58] But finally, you know, making lifelong friend and even saving it for, so it really has been an adventure of a lifetime.

[00:08:06] Dan: Jens, you made me, whenever we are in Italy, we spend a lot of time in gen and we al we always make time to wander down to the docks there to do some yachter spotting as we call it. So we wander on the quay, and you see these incredible vessels and you know, we're just peering at people like you on board, wondering what their life is like. So this is a great chance to sort of catch up. Take us just double click on that a little bit. Describe the, I mean, 85 meters is even quite Yeah. Take us down into the thing. Villa Deck. It's quite even hard to imagine 85 meters of boat, 

[00:08:40] Jens: Absolutely. I, I'm, cause I've always been sort of curious about what people's sort of outside perspective of it is really. So, um, I mean it's, I've always said to friends and. Family. It's like a, it's a bit like a boarding school in a way. Um, you know, you have that sort of, um, you know, uh, structure of, of, you know, the captain being headmaster, you know, whether or not he's, you know, strict or not, the way you run to boat. And then, yeah, you are living with your, you know, your camp, your cabin mates, your buddies, and you're just getting up to all, all, all sorts of mischief. And it's, you know, it's. a real adventure. 

[00:09:20] I mean, I think I said one of the reasons why I love it is because it's, um, you know, you've got no idea what day it is on board or what the date is really when you're in the midst of all these sort of things and the time you have that when you've got, you know, a piña colada or something or holiday, it's, you know, you rock up to these, um, these places are, you know, very remote and it's hard to get to, and, and you sort of integrate yourself into, into their culture.

[00:09:44] It's, it's so special because obviously you're not just working together, you're also living together. So you spend 24 hours in each other's company, which has its, it definitely has its pros and it also has, you know, a few cons. You know, you're working on quite a large tin pot on the sea. So person personalities, emotions, everything's amplified for better and for worse. So it's about how, how you manage that and go along with the ride.

[00:10:13] Pia: So how long is like a tour that you may not, you may be together for? 

[00:10:18] Jens: I love, I loved how you said tool.

[00:10:20] Pia: it's like a tour of

[00:10:22] Jens: it, it, the paces sound very, very hard. Very, yeah. It all depends on the, on your rank, on your, your, uh, so I mean, for me personally, I'm carry on three, I do three months on board, and I now have one month off. I mean, some people will do two months on and two months off or four months on and two months off. It all varies.

[00:10:42] Dan: And Jens, you, you are attached to a single vessel, aren't you? At the moment? Is the, is most of the crew the same? They would be working on that boat for that. that, that vessel, that time. And I believe that sometimes the owner is on board, but other times they'll, this may not be the case for yours. They'll lease it out to other people. So you get different owners as well sometimes on these, these bo different families, different guests if you like as well. So some, there's different elements of stability and change, I'm guessing, in terms of the makeup of the people on board.

[00:11:11] Jens: Yeah, no. Hundred percent. Uh, you know, at the end, it's, it's a business. So, you know, the owner, whoever is, wants to at least, you know, make money or cover its costs. So he'll, um, my boat, it's, it's a charter and, um, we'll, um Try to, you know, 4, 5, 6 charges a season. And then, uh, in that, in that free time, it'll either be filled with the owner or, or downtime for the crew ready to have a bit of fun.

[00:11:35] Pia: And tell me a bit about your role as a deck engineer. Do you have a team?

[00:11:39] Jens: Yeah I do do, I have two teams essentially as a deck engineer. My sort of, um, responsibility would be to, both help the engineers and the deck. So as a deck engineer, I suppose to summon up would be to cover all the sort of aspects, all sort of mechanical, uh, anything with a motor on deck essentially. So that's range from trains to, to jet skis, to, to tenders, to e fools, all the toys, making sure, you know, they're all topped up. There's no, everything operates well. No, nothing has, you know, fault or any holes in the side or, and then it's just to, you know, as, and when, uh, just add down into, you know, wherever I'm needed ready. So I'm sort. The, the middle man is what people call me, uh, or the link, uh, to both departments. 

[00:12:28] Pia: And this, and this might actually, I've written a lot of listeners would be, would, would relate to this. You're working intensely together. Do you find it difficult sometimes to switch to work mode when you've been mate mode, you've been friends and these are, these are the people that you hang out with for, you know, two or three months and then effectively, I would imagine you've actually gotta give instructions or you've gotta work together. 

[00:12:54] Jens: it's difficult, I think, I think it takes time to sort of be able to separate, uh, your working in your personal lives, especially with friends. I mean, I would say I'm, I'm, I have a very calm temperament, you know, there's, there's a, there's very little that pisses me off, but uh, so I think that's definitely, definitely think that's what benefits me. Uh, but yeah, I've seen it many times where people can't quite switch off from work and personal and, you know, that's when things clash. Personal, you know, outside of work and inside of work. And it's, um, not great, but. You just have to be very open. You know, you can't be sensitive and you've gotta be sort of almost quite, not confrontational, but just very honest about how you feel. 

[00:13:36] Pia: I'm gonna ask you another question. You mentioned rather glibly pirates. Yeah, so there are some dangers at sea I think that would be interesting to explore because the type of teamwork is, there must be like day-to-day stuff and then there must be sort of slightly extraordinary stuff. And I would've thought the weather plays a big part in that. But also, I hadn't actually anticipated that there would be pirates out there. I didn't think that happened in modern day. But obviously it, obviously it does.

[00:14:03] Jens: Yeah. so I'll, you, we were, we are going through the coast of Somalia

[00:14:08] Dan: I I was gonna say, you didn't go near Somalia, did you?

[00:14:10] Jens: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very bra, very brazen. And uh, luckily, I mean, luckily we had these guys on board, the ex special forces. We like five of them, and that was all, that was a very cool experience in itself. So picking them up in the dead of night, they're sort, and then go into this sort of military war to pick up the weapons. And then eventually we usually set passage. So we're going through the sewer, but obviously you have one part which is to be honest, it's a, a lot of fishermen or skewers, you know, who are very interested in a nice shiny, uh, you know, hundred million pound, pound yachts, they investigate.

[00:14:44] And it was just, we had this one instance where, you know, usually it's two, you know, two guys on the, uh, sort of circling around the yacht three, no longer than a couple of minutes. Uh, and then we were, we had three or four days in, and we had two sort of scooters with five people on it, which immediately seemed a little bit sketchy. And, uh, they followed us. You know, they, you know, they're at about 30 knots and we were averaging about 18, and they were following us for a good, you know, 14 hours. And then it wasn't until the guy called Dusty, who was a team leader of the ex Special Forces team, got out his sort of, his AK 47 on top of the helipad and just blazed off a magazine firing into the air.

[00:15:27] Dan: Just. Little subtle show of strength,

[00:15:31] Jens: And you saw, and you just saw them fuck off and, and that was that really. But it's a weird one cause it is quite exciting, but obviously you don't really want anything to happen. Uh, but it's, it's all, it's, it's those, those are the sort of moments I actually really, I really love, the sort of the, on your edge, on edge of your sea, adrenaline and sort of pumping, and that's what this industry sort of provides. It gives you those sort of, um, a very abnormal experiences and sort of thank yourself moments.

[00:15:55] Dan: Well, Jens I want to take you to the other end of the fun spectrum, if that's okay. Um, how, if you, if you now look at how the, the vessel is, how it's run, what's the process of actually Saying, right, this is what we gotta do, this is the service we're gonna offer. This is, this is the things that are gonna happen? 

[00:16:11] Jens: That's all down to obviously the captain. So the captain goes through the management company to, uh, the owner, um, so in terms of guest, so if you want charter guests coming on board, the boat is advertised through the charter brokerage, and then once they officially have a, you know, a price of put in place, they then go to the captain who says, Look, these guys want to, you know, go to Barbados for two weeks. And then that plan descends, handed to the captain, he sort of approves how feasible it is and then him, the chief officer, his right hand man or woman, then discuss all the sort of formalities, which then gets passed down to us. 

[00:16:46] Pia: It's quite like the military in some respects, isn't it? There's that, chain of command. 

[00:16:49] Jens: Yeah. Hundred percent. It's uh, well I think it's probably that if your comes from a commercial background of you, a tanker or cruiser, they're very much more military based. They like everything, you know, to, to the dot. But if he's come up through the ranks of the yachter, you'd find that most of them are a little bit more relaxed.

[00:17:06] Pia: Do you get a different captain for each tour of duty as such?

[00:17:11] Jens: Uh, so the boat, you would usually have two captains. Uh, it would say every captain is on for two months and then they have two months on, uh, holiday. And then like just, I guess they're there until they quit or until they get fired, and that would be by the, by the owner.

[00:17:25] it's quite nice going back to a boat where you know the crew, it, it becomes pretty much a family sort of thing. I think if you're constantly sort of chipping and chopping through, it'd make it quite exhausting having all that sort of small talk and all that sort of 

[00:17:38] Pia: And what, what do you think like when you see newbies gr other greenies coming onto the boat with you, what do you know now are the characteristics of like a team player that really makes it work well?

[00:17:50] Jens: Good question. it's a, it's a very physical sort of based job, so I think, you know, people who, who definitely aren't watching the clock, this job sort, you know, the ends when it ends. So, you know, it's not about, you know, job and knock. People very much, you know, pulling, pulling their weight, you know, way until, um, after hours shut.

[00:18:09] A lot of the job is just common sense, really. So it's not asking what to do, it's just about, you know, just going and doing it and, you know, uh, so I have a lot of times where people just take their own initiative and it, and uh, you know, just passion I suppose, You know, no fuss cuz it's, there is, there is drama. There's so much drama with it. And you know, don't get me wrong, everyone loves a bit of drama, and it's gonna happen when you're on a boat with lots of horny young people drunk all the time. But, um, 

[00:18:35] Pia: That's the below deck piece.

[00:18:37] Dan: Yes. 

[00:18:37] Jens: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and that and that and that's also below that, it's interesting cause that's what's given people an insight. I know I've never really seen you that many episodes gauge it, but um, it's definitely opened people's eyes up to what they think yachting is. And some people may come and realize, actually this isn't what I was expecting at all. And others might, you know, be equally as, you know, as happy to, oh, this is, this is much better than what I was seeing on, on the TV. 

[00:19:02] Dan: I'm really interested. I'm actually gonna just return to something Jens, so I, I just think this is, cohabiting, getting on, being matey and then working together, and I know Pia asked about it earlier. are there any sort of mechanisms for what we would call doing a retro, sort of, right, okay, how did that go? You know, look back on, they've gotten to anything better or, where you might have to give a crewmate some feedback or no, mate, that's, that shouldn't be there. That caused a problem because there's so and so Is there, does the, do those things arise? I know it was, we're sort of revisiting a little bit, but I'm fascinated by this thing where I feel it can be done very well when you're, getting on, you know them well, or it can sometimes get in the way. 

[00:19:40] Jens: Like anything really, it's the same as, you know, any sort of normal job. It's no different. It's, you know, you'd be doing it through, through, as I have, we have these annual appraisals, or weekly appraisals or, or you know, monthly things that we know, we get called up to our HOD's office, you know, for a spanking or for, you know, a good job well done. and he would go through, you know, everything, you know from your, not just your work side, but also your personal side. How, how well are you settling into the boats with the boys, with the team, with the girls, whoever it is? Um, cause that's such an important aspect.

[00:20:13] You know, you can work very well with, um, all these guys, but, you know, if you don't really get along with professionally, if you don't, you know, work well them professionally, but if you don't really get along well with anyone on board, then you, you stick out like a sore thumb. 

[00:20:25] Dan: And actually Jens, I wanted also to dive into this deck engineer role because, reading recently, there's a lot of people now because of everything so dispersed and the structure of organizations is dissolving, the high actual hierarchy structure is less important than the formal networks inside organizations. So you get a lot of these people who are sort of between two, they're sort of nodes really in these networks, but they're between two groups. And you are, as a deck engineer, it sounds like you are in that position where you are seeing both sides of things. What are your approaches other than being a bloody good bloke, um to sort of balancing those things when there is tension between those two groups, how, how do you, how do you go about that?

[00:21:04] Jens: To be honest, I've been very lucky with the boats I've been on, uh, and there hasn't been a huge amount of tension between the departments. Uh, and that's mostly down to, you know, the captain having, creating a very good atmosphere on, throughout the boat. And I would say I've been, so I can't, I mean, anything I can see is how I sort of try and be around people within, you know, within a close proximity, you know, for three or four months at a time. And that's just by being, um, just trying, being, you know, as helpful as possible. You know, even if it's just as small as a thing as keeping a door open for someone or, or, or, you know, or staying, you know, our, or or covering someone's watch when they're, when they're on, you know, on duty. Uh, it generally sort of all these small things sort of, um, play a big role. And I believe that's what everyone's sort of been doing on this last boat. And it creates a very positive atmosphere on board. 

[00:21:52] Pia: And also from what you're saying, yes you are actually, and it's probably a natural tendency of yours, but it probably makes a big difference, you build good networks with other people through those reciprocal acts, you're thinking of other people and you're helping, and that then you know, you're not annoying people by using your rank and title to show who's higher up in the pecking order, you're actually building those relationships with people, which is so key. And that's a bit like a rookie mistake that people make, is that actually you gotta give a lot more in order to be able to get those relationships back. And if you can do that early on, makes it easier.

[00:22:31] Jens: Yeah, no, I completely agree. I think you, it's, and it's man management. It's, I think, you know, I think that's one of the most important things about if you wanna be a leader in this, in industry. It's I mean, I'll, I'll give my old captain a shout out. Ben Heath, he was, he was brilliant at it. He made you. Very, very at ease in the work, you know, working personal, which obviously just makes you very much more comfortable than yourself and, and, you know, makes you work a lot more, um, efficient.

[00:22:56] Now, I think if you're gonna have someone who, who know if you're doing your job and you have someone who generally puts you on edge, probably gonna clock it up at some point, it's something you can usually do in your sleep. So it's just, just shows, you know, the importance of how good man management can be. And I think that's, that is crucial, especially, you know, as a captain, to be able to switch off. at the end of the day and sit down and just chat and have fun and laugh as a, as a person and not as a captain.

[00:23:20] So there aren't any egos because as a captain, you can sort of be on a boat and, and think you're almost like God, you know, you walk high and mighty, and, and it, it happens in the past where they use their control or abuse their power and, you know, it's, uh, affects it in a negative way.

[00:23:34] Pia: It's quite an intense learning experience from what you're talking about. I mean, you're getting a lot of young people on, in, in the boarding school, floating your way around the world, but you, you know, there's so much richness there to be had.

[00:23:49] Jens: We've just, we're a bunch of young people running a, you know, with hundreds of millions of pounds in our sort of responsibilities, you know, traveling around the world and it's, it's such an adventure, you know, I think that's why I love it, really. It's just, I was a, my past life because it's just, I couldn't recommend it more for anyone who, who is listening, who would be interested to, to get into the industry. Because it gives you, not only just give you great independence and, and, and freedom, it just, life. It's just life lessons.

[00:24:19] I think when you, when you look back 80 plus or, or whatever it is, you know, you look back on those experiences and this is the thing that provides that, and it's. All the ab, all the abnormal, abnormal opportunities. And it's, uh, makes, makes your life very rich with, you know, very special memories.

[00:24:36] Dan: Well, it's, it's a, you've painted a lovely picture and, uh, we are, we're all about human connections. I, the, what I'm left with, Jens, is that this is a really intense, it's like human connections boiled down into some concentrated thing. And, uh, so yeah, and you've given us a real flavor of that. And, um, and it's just, it's, it's great to hear. It sounds like you, you've made some, made a bold choice a little while back, and you've, you've been, it's really serving you well, which is, um, which is very pleasing to hear, so thank you for sharing that with us.

[00:25:06] Jens: No, my pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you for Thank you for having me.

[00:25:09] Dan: Great. Well keep listening, Jens.

[00:25:11] Pia: And maybe we might be calling you captain one day.

[00:25:13] Jens: yeah, yeah. Fingers crossed.

[00:25:15] Dan: Indeed. , Excellent. Thanks so much Yas. Thanks for being on the show.

[00:25:19] Jens: Thank you guys.

[00:25:20] 

[00:25:23] Pia: I loved how Jens led off by talking about his bold choices. Here he was, a man that was landlocked and, and chose a career in the sea. But, you know, making the way he described at the beginning, and I think that would appeal to many listeners who, you know, sometimes the course of our life doesn't go the way that we necessarily expect it. And you have to make bold choices. And they are, they are. And I thought that is a real leadership trait, both with people and by ourselves.

[00:25:54] Dan: I Loved that actually, I wrote that down a big letter because to be honest with you, I don't think I did as a young person make bold choices. I think I sort of, probably made some brave choices in terms of the amount of effort I was gonna have to put into some of the things I chose. But that's not quite the same as a bold choice of deciding to be different. I love the way you sort of talked about his choice of clothing and all kinds of things. Just he stood out and I, I think that's, um, it's really encouraging to hear when people are able to do that. And that it also maintain in later life, no, it's not that late in terms of y Jens, but just sort of put someone on a different path that is non-conventional, but brings them Happiness. It is. I thought, I thought that was a delightful part of that conversation.

[00:26:35] Pia: And that sort of ties back, I think, quite a lot to remember Lucy Hovanec talking about being purpose, follow your purpose. And I think it was just couched in a, in a slightly different way. So it's a really, really good reminder.

[00:26:48] Jens also talked about emotions getting amplified and, and I don't think that was a, a hormonal thing that was actually , that was just, you know, ev everyone below deck. And so he then talked about the stakeholder relationships that you need to keep and, and in our words, I'd call that, reciprocity, you know, give and take. You need something, I'm gonna help you,

[00:27:11] Dan: it's that part of social capital, isn't it? That, that reciprocity. And he, he seemed, he seemed naturally able to go first. I love the way he said, holding a door open for someone. How simple is that? I mean, it's so love, lovely. But, but that's just, I think it's something we haven't taught that much on the show, but how do you build that social capital and, and in, in those places where emotions are amplified, I'm sure that those little things just never go unnoticed. And that, that reciprocity part, um, to help you to, um, you know, bond and bridge, I think of the technical words around social capital, um, often used, but, you know, building your own team and actually bridging across to others through that, um, through that approach. I thought that was really good.

[00:27:52] And actually it made me realize that this is a really strange situation. You're on a luxury yacht out in the ocean, but some of these things are eternal about how you connect with others. You know, there's a, the captain does have a, have a role in creating the tone from the top, but ultimately it's down to you and how you can build those relationships. And I, I was, it was really interesting to see when everything's amplified that those things, those basic human abilities to connect, um, really come to the fore. And Jens was clearly quite adept at it.

[00:28:24] Pia: I, I loved how he called. It just really, it's a floating boarding school. It was just all , all these people together. Um, but I think the analogy is, I mean, you know, many corporations, many businesses, many organizations, they're the same. They, you know, they're, they're people together, getting on or not getting on and, um, and facing all of those challenges. I did, there's slightly different challenges. I mean, he's got the weather. He listed pirates and a-listers, you know. They were different. Different to the normal run of the mill.

[00:28:57] Dan: Yeah, true, true. uh, yeah, those strange influences on, on the team were, that was a different list wasn't it, from the, from the norm. But, uh, but great to hear how he deals with it and with such aplomb, I have to say. So, um, you see, that sounded very deft. So yeah, wonderful to talk to him and just see how another, how other teams play out in this wonderful world of, uh, where we're trying to help, uh, humans connect. So, absolutely great to hear from Jens.

[00:29:22] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net, just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:29:44] Pia: And is goodbye from me.