WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.710 --> 00:00:09.320 Matt: It's the WP Minute Plus, your home for long form discussions with WordPress 00:00:09.350 --> 00:00:14.030 professionals and industry experts covering our favorite topic, WordPress. 00:00:14.390 --> 00:00:15.390 Be sure to follow us. 00:00:15.500 --> 00:00:17.759 Search for WP Minute in your favorite podcast app. 00:00:18.060 --> 00:00:21.420 Follow this podcast and our five minute weekly edition. 00:00:21.850 --> 00:00:22.630 Or head to thewpminute. 00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:26.070 com slash subscribe and join the newsletter. 00:00:26.310 --> 00:00:29.020 I'm told it's like a warm WordPress blanket that gets 00:00:29.020 --> 00:00:30.110 delivered to your doorstep. 00:00:30.410 --> 00:00:31.020 Every week. 00:00:31.300 --> 00:00:32.850 Looking for all things WordPress? 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:35.120 The WP Minute has you covered. 00:00:38.210 --> 00:00:41.610 This episode of the WP Minute Plus is brought to you by our friends at 00:00:41.660 --> 00:00:47.089 OmniSend, the top rated email and SMS marketing platform for WordPress stores. 00:00:47.470 --> 00:00:50.939 With OmniSend, you'll be launching pre built e commerce automations in no 00:00:50.939 --> 00:00:55.330 time, as well as intuitively segmenting customers based on their shopping 00:00:55.330 --> 00:01:00.394 behavior and Even trying out SMS or push notifications all from the same platform. 00:01:00.834 --> 00:01:04.955 More than 100, 000 e commerce brands use OmniSend to drive sales and build 00:01:04.965 --> 00:01:08.945 better customer relationships, converting their customers with quick to create 00:01:09.065 --> 00:01:11.664 highly relevant emails and texts. 00:01:11.704 --> 00:01:14.265 Are you ready to start building campaigns that really sell 00:01:14.265 --> 00:01:15.264 and convert your customers? 00:01:15.274 --> 00:01:18.155 Find out more at OmniSend. 00:01:18.185 --> 00:01:18.525 com. 00:01:18.525 --> 00:01:19.485 That's OmniSend. 00:01:19.525 --> 00:01:19.935 com. 00:01:19.975 --> 00:01:22.914 O M N I S E N D. 00:01:22.925 --> 00:01:22.955 com. 00:01:22.955 --> 00:01:24.307 OmniSend. 00:01:24.307 --> 00:01:25.659 com. 00:01:26.050 --> 00:01:28.810 And give your brand the boost it deserves. 00:01:39.330 --> 00:01:40.400 Marc: Hey Mark, welcome to the program. 00:01:40.500 --> 00:01:41.620 Hey Matt, how are ya? 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:42.650 Matt: I'm doing well. 00:01:42.850 --> 00:01:46.680 The last time you and I chatted, well, technically the last time you and I 00:01:46.710 --> 00:01:50.720 chatted was only a few weeks ago on the first WP Minute Roundtable, but 00:01:50.720 --> 00:01:55.999 the last time you and I had a therapy session like this was back on the Matt 00:01:56.210 --> 00:02:00.560 Report when we talked about a very popular app, ServerPress at the time. 00:02:01.150 --> 00:02:01.960 Recovering well. 00:02:02.555 --> 00:02:03.045 I take it. 00:02:03.565 --> 00:02:04.065 Marc: Yeah. 00:02:04.085 --> 00:02:08.055 Um, and, and, uh, had I known we would describe it as a therapy session, I 00:02:08.055 --> 00:02:11.255 would have taken the room here at the co work that had a sofa in it and, 00:02:11.505 --> 00:02:16.594 uh, and told you about my mother, but, um, who, by the way, is a fantastic 00:02:16.595 --> 00:02:20.554 woman and just in case she's listening. 00:02:20.555 --> 00:02:20.865 Yeah. 00:02:21.024 --> 00:02:23.555 She, well, even if she's not, she is a fantastic woman. 00:02:23.555 --> 00:02:25.865 And I actually won the parent lottery. 00:02:25.865 --> 00:02:26.985 There's no doubt about that. 00:02:27.005 --> 00:02:28.520 So, um, Yeah. 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:28.690 Nice. 00:02:29.539 --> 00:02:31.339 Matt: Uh, so where is Mark these days? 00:02:31.349 --> 00:02:32.070 What are you doing? 00:02:32.070 --> 00:02:32.360 What's your 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:32.810 Marc: roles? 00:02:32.829 --> 00:02:35.649 So these days I'm wearing a couple of hats. 00:02:35.690 --> 00:02:42.279 I am handling marketing and also sales and marketing for, uh, sales and 00:02:42.309 --> 00:02:46.969 marketing for a web hosting managed WordPress host, uh, called Site District, 00:02:46.989 --> 00:02:48.640 which is out here on the West Coast. 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:55.400 And then I am, uh, the marketing lead for main WP, which is a. 00:02:55.615 --> 00:03:01.115 Uh, WordPress dashboard management, um, kind of ecosystem plugin. 00:03:01.555 --> 00:03:01.975 Yeah. 00:03:02.155 --> 00:03:03.515 So when you, when you, 00:03:04.035 --> 00:03:07.844 Matt: when I get a whole like host of ideas that I want to talk about, you 00:03:07.844 --> 00:03:11.195 are trying to get them out of me in the green room before we hit record. 00:03:11.195 --> 00:03:14.444 But that's not the kind of podcast host I am, Mark. 00:03:14.665 --> 00:03:15.235 Marc: No, I'm just kidding. 00:03:15.715 --> 00:03:18.505 I like to be prepared before I wing everything and sound like an idiot. 00:03:18.945 --> 00:03:19.795 So, you know. 00:03:21.290 --> 00:03:22.110 Matt: How did you approach? 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:26.150 Did you approach these brands as like a, cause I've seen this around and 00:03:26.150 --> 00:03:31.010 I'm just curious, uh, I've seen the title fractional CMO or, you know, 00:03:31.019 --> 00:03:35.189 fractional marketing person, fractional, this being used a lot these days. 00:03:35.190 --> 00:03:37.380 And, and I really think about that. 00:03:37.705 --> 00:03:42.945 Phrase and I really think about like the future of human labor This is gonna get 00:03:42.945 --> 00:03:47.524 deep like I think about the the the future of human labor and artificial intelligence 00:03:47.525 --> 00:03:51.025 I hear a lot of people saying things like well AI is not gonna lose make you lose 00:03:51.025 --> 00:03:54.254 jobs But you're gonna be elevated and like the things you're really really good at 00:03:54.265 --> 00:03:57.865 that's what people are gonna hire you for And then I wonder, well, is that 40 hours 00:03:57.865 --> 00:03:59.565 a week of my really, really goodness? 00:03:59.845 --> 00:04:05.045 Or can I bring 10 hours a week to four different brands of my really goodness? 00:04:05.234 --> 00:04:05.435 Right. 00:04:05.435 --> 00:04:06.865 And my, my big vocabulary there. 00:04:07.004 --> 00:04:10.155 So we're not going to talk about AI yet, but tell me how you approach 00:04:10.155 --> 00:04:13.075 these two roles and have like these split, these split minds. 00:04:13.590 --> 00:04:14.020 Well, 00:04:14.050 --> 00:04:17.860 Marc: um, first we have to go back a little bit, um, I'll give 00:04:17.860 --> 00:04:18.800 you a little bit of backstory. 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:23.060 So when we shut down ServerPress, uh, you know, as one might imagine, 00:04:23.109 --> 00:04:27.640 uh, this is the therapy part of it, um, I, I kind of had to do a lot of 00:04:27.660 --> 00:04:30.890 self reflection and decide what I wanted to do and where I wanted to be. 00:04:30.900 --> 00:04:34.880 And the conclusion I had come to, uh, interestingly enough was I wanted to 00:04:34.880 --> 00:04:36.420 step away from WordPress altogether. 00:04:37.080 --> 00:04:43.630 I had actually felt that WordPress had grown, had evolved to this point 00:04:43.640 --> 00:04:48.030 that I didn't feel that there was like a real place in it for me. 00:04:48.049 --> 00:04:52.929 And what I mean by that is I like to, I like to get my hands dirty. 00:04:53.030 --> 00:04:56.570 I like to get into the nitty gritty and understand things and be part of 00:04:56.570 --> 00:05:00.109 the creative process and be able to make suggestions that actually don't 00:05:00.109 --> 00:05:05.810 go through, you know, 500 levels of approval and discussion and then end up 00:05:05.810 --> 00:05:09.740 falling on somebody's desk that just sits there forever and nothing ever happens. 00:05:10.090 --> 00:05:16.149 I am, of course, talking about the, the corporate, you know, kind of, uh, world. 00:05:16.650 --> 00:05:18.349 And that never appealed to me. 00:05:18.400 --> 00:05:22.344 And I kind of had felt, I think, At that point that, that there wasn't 00:05:22.344 --> 00:05:23.945 really much of that out there. 00:05:24.005 --> 00:05:24.885 I was wrong. 00:05:25.094 --> 00:05:27.594 And part of it was I was probably, you know, making a 00:05:27.594 --> 00:05:28.724 bit of an emotional decision. 00:05:28.984 --> 00:05:30.294 So I took about six months off. 00:05:30.294 --> 00:05:32.054 I took about six months away from WordPress. 00:05:32.934 --> 00:05:37.604 And if I'm being honest, I think, uh, Jonathan Wold over at, uh, 00:05:37.624 --> 00:05:38.905 he's working on Guildenberg. 00:05:38.924 --> 00:05:41.174 He and I talked early on about Guildenberg. 00:05:41.174 --> 00:05:43.664 And I thought, hey, this sounds really cool. 00:05:44.215 --> 00:05:46.565 You know, maybe I'll keep an eye on what's going on. 00:05:46.585 --> 00:05:47.565 And, um. 00:05:47.844 --> 00:05:50.255 And he talked me into attending WordCamp U. 00:05:50.255 --> 00:05:50.515 S. 00:05:50.594 --> 00:05:54.414 last year in San Diego, which was the first WordCamp, you know, 00:05:54.414 --> 00:05:57.405 big WordCamp after, after COVID. 00:05:58.265 --> 00:06:03.664 And I was approached by Matt over at Site District, and he came to 00:06:03.664 --> 00:06:06.294 me and said, Have you ever thought about getting into WordPress hosting? 00:06:06.295 --> 00:06:08.915 And I said, Yes, I have, and no, I'm not interested. 00:06:09.565 --> 00:06:10.875 And he said, Why not? 00:06:10.925 --> 00:06:13.344 And he said, Because nobody does WordPress hosting right. 00:06:13.685 --> 00:06:16.965 And I went on this whole litany of You know, things that I hated about 00:06:16.965 --> 00:06:19.414 WordPress hosting, all these things. 00:06:19.905 --> 00:06:23.754 And, and there might've been a little bit of, you know, once again, 00:06:23.754 --> 00:06:26.905 I just kind of felt like there was no place for me there yet. 00:06:26.945 --> 00:06:29.655 And, uh, and he had me look at his dashboard. 00:06:29.655 --> 00:06:32.175 He had me look at what he had been building over the last 10 years. 00:06:32.175 --> 00:06:35.315 And I thought, Hmm, this is really fascinating what he's built. 00:06:35.805 --> 00:06:39.325 And he said, would you like to, you know, help me market this? 00:06:39.325 --> 00:06:40.305 I've been doing it for. 00:06:40.460 --> 00:06:44.420 Nine years we're growing, you know on word of mouth and I'd like to do a little 00:06:44.420 --> 00:06:50.590 bit more than that and I said sure and so I got involved in that and Then I 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:53.850 started becoming more and more active again and saying hey there are other 00:06:53.850 --> 00:06:59.939 things here that I can do It has not outgrown me and my and my skill set yet 00:07:00.449 --> 00:07:08.775 but I don't know that I can do any one thing, I would rather just find companies 00:07:08.795 --> 00:07:15.575 that I really like that are kind of engineered extremely well and they just 00:07:15.575 --> 00:07:17.245 need a little bit of help here and there. 00:07:17.735 --> 00:07:22.895 And so that, you know, uh, it started with there and it just kind of evolved 00:07:22.895 --> 00:07:27.545 into, you know, I've known Dennis over at MainWP since they had just started. 00:07:28.115 --> 00:07:32.530 Um, at ServerPress, we used to, uh, Sponsor WordCamps, 00:07:32.570 --> 00:07:34.849 uh, as you probably remember. 00:07:34.869 --> 00:07:39.340 And, uh, I met Dennis at MainWP back at WordCamp Orlando. 00:07:39.340 --> 00:07:42.589 I don't know, 2014 or 2015 or something like that. 00:07:42.589 --> 00:07:43.859 They were just getting going. 00:07:44.339 --> 00:07:46.619 And, uh, we had our tables next to each other. 00:07:47.510 --> 00:07:49.889 Seemed like, I don't know if it was coincidence or by 00:07:50.080 --> 00:07:51.520 design after the first year. 00:07:51.900 --> 00:07:53.780 And we got to form this, this friendship. 00:07:53.810 --> 00:07:58.900 And, uh, then Dennis and I started talking and I said, Hey! 00:07:58.985 --> 00:08:02.715 You know, actually he said to me, Hey, you know, we could use some help in marketing. 00:08:02.715 --> 00:08:03.525 Would you be interested? 00:08:03.525 --> 00:08:07.425 And I was, once again, it was like, I really like this company. 00:08:07.544 --> 00:08:13.935 I really like the people here and I like what it represents, my core values. 00:08:13.954 --> 00:08:17.854 And so I got into doing that too. 00:08:17.854 --> 00:08:20.795 And it's, you know, for me, one of my biggest core values is, is this a 00:08:20.795 --> 00:08:23.075 company that focuses on customer first? 00:08:23.725 --> 00:08:29.555 Kind of mentality, you know, and and rather than money first or or, 00:08:29.594 --> 00:08:31.665 you know, what's our ROI or that? 00:08:31.665 --> 00:08:33.074 I mean, we always look at ROI. 00:08:33.084 --> 00:08:35.944 Don't get me wrong, you know, anybody tells you they don't is 00:08:35.944 --> 00:08:38.084 lying But how do we get there? 00:08:38.094 --> 00:08:42.694 And if the first tenant of of that philosophy is Customer service 00:08:42.714 --> 00:08:45.635 then I'm kind of right there and then if their product is rock 00:08:45.635 --> 00:08:47.785 solid Then I'm really right there. 00:08:47.785 --> 00:08:52.600 And so I feel very fortunate To be involved with these, you know, with these 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:58.510 situations and I'm and I'm, you know, kind of over my My licking my wounds of 00:08:58.540 --> 00:09:01.939 of server press at this point and and seeing that there are actually a lot 00:09:01.939 --> 00:09:06.969 of opportunities out there for people who may be more like me not interested 00:09:06.970 --> 00:09:12.250 in getting Out there into the corporate world and having to, to deal with that 00:09:12.270 --> 00:09:16.920 and want to just get their hands dirty and, and be part of the creative process 00:09:16.930 --> 00:09:21.429 where their opinion holds a little bit more weight than it might in a big machine 00:09:21.520 --> 00:09:23.900 with a lot of cogs and, and, uh, and 00:09:23.909 --> 00:09:24.399 Matt: gears. 00:09:24.850 --> 00:09:27.449 There's a lot of value in, of course. 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:33.270 Obviously your back catalog of, you know, successes and failures in the WordPress 00:09:33.280 --> 00:09:37.040 space, running a business, building a product, knowing all sort of end to 00:09:37.040 --> 00:09:43.370 end of that, you know, I've never built a product as widely used as let's say 00:09:43.370 --> 00:09:49.069 server press, uh, or had that kind of, you know, momentum, but I think that. 00:09:49.265 --> 00:09:51.935 You know, and I'll, I'll put ourselves a little bit on a pedestal here because 00:09:51.935 --> 00:09:57.045 I think it's important that other folks listening to this recognize that they 00:09:57.045 --> 00:10:01.315 have the same abilities or close to that, that you and I both share, which 00:10:01.315 --> 00:10:05.665 is again, running a business, building a product, knowing the marketing, knowing 00:10:05.675 --> 00:10:10.555 what the customer needs in a product and being able to articulate that in 00:10:10.555 --> 00:10:14.115 your marketing and your sales process, but now doing it for another brand, 00:10:14.475 --> 00:10:16.395 you know, largely, I guess this is why. 00:10:16.885 --> 00:10:18.435 Gravity Forms hired me, right? 00:10:18.475 --> 00:10:22.005 I've been doing it forever, ran a business, ran an agency, 00:10:22.005 --> 00:10:23.945 built products, marketed, right? 00:10:23.945 --> 00:10:27.245 So they look at that and go, Oh, you can relate the things that our 00:10:27.245 --> 00:10:31.685 engineering team and our product teams and our customer support teams need 00:10:31.685 --> 00:10:33.995 to communicate with our end users. 00:10:34.515 --> 00:10:39.024 Um, and I think that obviously that's the advantage and the flexibility. 00:10:39.165 --> 00:10:43.694 That that you have and I think that this is where I was going with the crazy AI 00:10:44.055 --> 00:10:48.655 hypothesis before was there are a lot of people out there that that have these. 00:10:49.130 --> 00:10:54.810 I don't know, pocketed skill sets that don't demand a 40 hour a week job. 00:10:54.810 --> 00:10:58.210 I mean, they could or whatever, but I think there's flexibility, 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:03.330 particularly in the WordPress space for good people to represent brands, 00:11:03.860 --> 00:11:08.829 not, not like influencers, you know, like Instagram influencers, but like 00:11:09.350 --> 00:11:11.600 people that are people that are. 00:11:12.920 --> 00:11:16.989 Understand the WordPress space, which is not easy because you had 00:11:16.999 --> 00:11:20.849 to be around for literally 20 years to know like where it's, where it 00:11:20.849 --> 00:11:22.439 started and where it's at today. 00:11:22.899 --> 00:11:26.289 I don't have a direct question there, but I'm curious if you feel the same way. 00:11:26.289 --> 00:11:29.289 And if you feel the same, maybe positivity for somebody listening 00:11:29.289 --> 00:11:32.579 to this and say, yeah, you can do this too with these skillsets. 00:11:32.979 --> 00:11:33.579 Yeah, I, 00:11:33.680 --> 00:11:34.540 Marc: I agree. 00:11:34.579 --> 00:11:39.220 Um, and I think a large part of that and one of the things that I don't know that 00:11:39.220 --> 00:11:45.569 I, I probably did, uh, at a subconscious level, but then, then actively, you 00:11:45.569 --> 00:11:50.829 know, kept an eye on it, but managing your personal brand is really huge, 00:11:50.899 --> 00:11:52.449 especially in the WordPress community. 00:11:52.449 --> 00:11:56.410 So part of that is, you know, being obviously community oriented, 00:11:56.420 --> 00:12:01.059 which if you're personal, you know, when I say managing, that really 00:12:01.059 --> 00:12:02.569 has to be a part of who you are. 00:12:02.739 --> 00:12:03.129 Right? 00:12:03.129 --> 00:12:07.930 You, you can't fake that you are community oriented if you're not. 00:12:07.930 --> 00:12:10.829 You can fake it for a little while, but you can't do it forever. 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:15.569 You, you know, you have to, you know, in the WordPress community, actually caring 00:12:15.579 --> 00:12:18.749 about your fellow WordPresser matters. 00:12:19.270 --> 00:12:25.225 Knowing what is important to them and knowing your demographic is important. 00:12:25.615 --> 00:12:29.485 But if you don't have a personal brand that you've built up over the years, 00:12:29.495 --> 00:12:31.955 it does become more difficult for me. 00:12:32.445 --> 00:12:36.114 Um, I was fortunate that people came to me, but that was because 00:12:36.115 --> 00:12:38.364 I had, you know, in a way curated. 00:12:38.859 --> 00:12:43.469 the part of my personality that fit, that fit the WordPress community. 00:12:43.790 --> 00:12:47.510 They are, they are a very big part of me, but there are a lot of parts 00:12:47.510 --> 00:12:50.019 of me that are not relevant to the WordPress community that I don't 00:12:50.020 --> 00:12:51.279 bring to the WordPress community. 00:12:51.760 --> 00:12:56.160 And, and kind of being able to tap into that, I think to a 00:12:56.160 --> 00:12:57.979 degree can make you desirable. 00:12:58.094 --> 00:13:02.704 And I think that there are a lot of people out there, you are a perfect example that, 00:13:02.745 --> 00:13:07.314 you know, uh, I, I don't know how you came to be with Gravity Forms, but I'm 00:13:07.324 --> 00:13:11.035 sure that if you offered your services, they snatched you up in a second. 00:13:11.064 --> 00:13:14.314 If you didn't offer your services and they came to you, it's because, you 00:13:14.314 --> 00:13:15.675 know, you're Matt Medeiros, right? 00:13:15.684 --> 00:13:17.125 So, um. 00:13:17.339 --> 00:13:20.699 Either way, uh, you know, you've done the same thing. 00:13:20.699 --> 00:13:28.240 You've curated your personal brand and that has what has helped you to accomplish 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:29.839 what you have and be where you're 00:13:29.839 --> 00:13:30.199 Matt: at. 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:33.819 I've seen a lot of founders try to fake, like just to interject 00:13:33.819 --> 00:13:34.809 on what you were saying before. 00:13:35.130 --> 00:13:39.844 There's a lot of folks that That forced themselves into being like, 00:13:40.114 --> 00:13:42.905 can you like, Hey, I'm a founder. 00:13:42.975 --> 00:13:45.605 People told me I have to do this social media thing. 00:13:45.625 --> 00:13:46.875 I have to talk about it. 00:13:46.875 --> 00:13:50.914 And I've seen this and experienced it with, with founders that I've worked 00:13:50.915 --> 00:13:55.444 with who are, you know, they, it's just like, it's just like, here comes January. 00:13:55.454 --> 00:13:56.745 Everyone's going to get back to the gym. 00:13:57.210 --> 00:13:59.600 And then by like March, they're like, ah, this sucks. 00:14:00.500 --> 00:14:01.319 Where's that pizza? 00:14:01.319 --> 00:14:03.200 I'm going back to that pizza, you know? 00:14:03.460 --> 00:14:07.490 And I see the same thing happen over and over again with founders. 00:14:07.990 --> 00:14:11.619 I call it like founder marketing, like hire somebody like myself or 00:14:11.619 --> 00:14:14.090 like Mark to fill that gap for you. 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:17.850 Because you're not going to be good at it and you don't even need to focus on it. 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:18.490 Right. 00:14:18.500 --> 00:14:22.700 Get somebody in the place that understands both ends and don't 00:14:22.710 --> 00:14:26.509 force it because forcing it just is then just the worst thing to do. 00:14:26.970 --> 00:14:27.330 Yeah. 00:14:27.420 --> 00:14:27.700 Marc: Yeah. 00:14:27.760 --> 00:14:28.489 I agree. 00:14:28.489 --> 00:14:33.620 And I mean, back in the day, I kind of think that this is, um, I, I remember 00:14:33.629 --> 00:14:37.670 back in the nineties when I was running a internet service provider and, and 00:14:37.680 --> 00:14:39.500 the Cisco people sent someone out. 00:14:39.694 --> 00:14:43.395 And, you know, because we were, you know, looking at routers and things like that. 00:14:43.704 --> 00:14:45.435 And they sent out a team of people. 00:14:45.435 --> 00:14:49.114 They sent out, you know, a sales manager and a sales engineer. 00:14:49.275 --> 00:14:53.905 I loved the sales engineer because this was the guy who could speak the language 00:14:53.905 --> 00:14:57.714 of the engineers and he could speak the language of the marketers and the 00:14:57.714 --> 00:15:03.195 salespeople and, and bring it to a level that those of us who were just starting 00:15:03.195 --> 00:15:08.275 to learn what routing was and all that could understand at a rudimentary level. 00:15:08.750 --> 00:15:14.200 And I always was fascinated with that position because I felt like that's what 00:15:14.210 --> 00:15:20.600 bridges that gap between the, the genius of an engineer who speaks engineering 00:15:20.690 --> 00:15:25.080 and, you know, everything is a 10 page document on how something works. 00:15:25.810 --> 00:15:29.790 And, and the person who doesn't understand that 10 page document, there's 00:15:29.790 --> 00:15:31.700 that guy who bullet points it, right? 00:15:31.990 --> 00:15:34.090 And, and says, this is what it'll do for you. 00:15:34.090 --> 00:15:36.740 And this is how it will benefit you, et cetera. 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.949 And I've always, I've always been fascinated with that position. 00:15:39.949 --> 00:15:43.159 And I've always felt like that's kind of one of the roles that I kind of 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:48.210 fall into is, you know, I, I would never be able to engineer a platform. 00:15:48.460 --> 00:15:53.000 Like Site District, I would never be able to engineer a, a, uh, plug in 00:15:53.010 --> 00:15:56.210 like, uh, main WP or desktop server. 00:15:56.210 --> 00:15:59.180 I was never, I would not be able to engineer that, but I 00:15:59.180 --> 00:16:00.320 could tell you what it does. 00:16:00.330 --> 00:16:01.459 I could tell you how it works. 00:16:01.460 --> 00:16:02.980 I could tell you how it benefits you. 00:16:03.210 --> 00:16:05.290 I could tell you why it works and all of that. 00:16:05.650 --> 00:16:07.580 And I think that's a really important role. 00:16:07.580 --> 00:16:10.160 And I think once again, there are a lot of people out there that, 00:16:10.190 --> 00:16:14.580 that maybe don't realize that that's, that may be their forte. 00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:17.130 And that's really an, it's like a translator. 00:16:17.255 --> 00:16:17.965 Essentially. 00:16:18.445 --> 00:16:18.775 Matt: Yeah. 00:16:19.055 --> 00:16:19.285 Yeah. 00:16:19.285 --> 00:16:23.615 I think about, uh, I have three young kids, young boys, and I think 00:16:23.615 --> 00:16:28.045 about that same scenario of like the sales engineer and just like my, 00:16:28.865 --> 00:16:30.165 okay, back to the therapy session. 00:16:31.765 --> 00:16:37.550 Just like my, my life of growing up, it was like, Computers like consumer desktops 00:16:37.650 --> 00:16:40.010 were just coming in to play, right? 00:16:40.010 --> 00:16:46.380 Like I had to, to play a game on my dad's computer, I had to run DOS 00:16:46.390 --> 00:16:48.569 prompts and put in a disc, right? 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:50.329 And get that thing going. 00:16:50.329 --> 00:16:53.620 So as a kid, when, you know, parents weren't looking like, you didn't 00:16:53.620 --> 00:16:54.939 just turn on your PlayStation. 00:16:55.130 --> 00:16:57.900 No, you had to run a command to get this thing going. 00:16:57.930 --> 00:16:59.860 And what the hell, I didn't know what I was doing. 00:16:59.860 --> 00:17:01.060 So I'm like reading a manual. 00:17:01.250 --> 00:17:03.280 Trying all these things and all of a sudden the game comes on. 00:17:03.280 --> 00:17:06.099 I'm like, Oh my God, I, I figured out this computer thing. 00:17:06.450 --> 00:17:07.349 Fast forward. 00:17:07.349 --> 00:17:11.789 I mean, building computers, uh, working at circuit city, which really started to 00:17:11.789 --> 00:17:18.410 fuse the gap of I'm a sales guy and I'm helping people buy their, again, first 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:24.319 computers back then when each computer was like 4, 000 and you were just making 00:17:24.530 --> 00:17:29.440 tons of money as a salesperson and like showing people, here's how you set this 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:30.950 up, here's how you set up a home network. 00:17:31.305 --> 00:17:32.345 Here's how you do all this stuff. 00:17:32.595 --> 00:17:37.545 Then I worked at an ISP, blah, blah, blah, blah, like, and I start to wonder, Am I 00:17:37.545 --> 00:17:43.635 gonna be able to get my kids to, like, know the fundamentals of computing and 00:17:43.685 --> 00:17:48.364 understanding, because now, oh my god, I just start to think about, like, ChatGPT. 00:17:48.364 --> 00:17:52.795 I'm letting my, my kids draw with ChatGPT, and I'm like, holy shit, 00:17:52.795 --> 00:17:58.710 I'm skipping a massive amount of, like, Microsoft Paint, you know, 00:17:59.320 --> 00:18:01.450 move the mouse and draw it yourself. 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:04.810 And now my kids are just making chat GPT, make these crazy images. 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:09.449 And I'm wondering like, wow, how do I get them rooted in the hands 00:18:09.449 --> 00:18:12.180 on fundamentals of computing? 00:18:12.530 --> 00:18:15.510 So that they don't skip all that because that was what was super 00:18:15.510 --> 00:18:19.100 valuable to me anyway, and I assume to you is as well Yeah, 00:18:19.409 --> 00:18:22.729 Marc: yeah, and did did I know that you worked at circuit city because 00:18:22.739 --> 00:18:24.519 you and I share that in our history? 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:27.049 I think maybe we probably talked about it. 00:18:27.280 --> 00:18:31.090 We may have talked about it and and uh, man Of course, I worked at 00:18:31.090 --> 00:18:34.610 circuit city before they had personal computers for sale at circuit city. 00:18:34.610 --> 00:18:39.360 So, um, Uh, so I was I was in the audio visual, uh, department. 00:18:39.649 --> 00:18:44.080 But, you know, I, the way that I break it down for things like that, um, 00:18:44.149 --> 00:18:48.649 and, and this may be a little bit off topic of what you just stated, but I 00:18:48.649 --> 00:18:50.360 break everything down to mechanics. 00:18:50.849 --> 00:18:55.779 So, whether it's electronic or whatever, there's this logical progression, right? 00:18:55.780 --> 00:19:01.815 And so, if you teach your kids mechanics, how to do mechanical things, fix a 00:19:01.815 --> 00:19:06.404 motor, or, or whatever it might be, you know, and understanding what those parts 00:19:06.405 --> 00:19:10.735 are, or you teach them biology, because the body is a human machine, right? 00:19:10.975 --> 00:19:16.610 If you teach people how machines work, at a mechanical level, which is a 00:19:16.610 --> 00:19:20.320 little bit easier to understand because you're looking and seeing things and 00:19:20.320 --> 00:19:23.250 you're touching things and you're putting things together and making 00:19:23.250 --> 00:19:24.899 them work and seeing how they interact. 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:27.650 And, you know, for me, I'm a big clock guy. 00:19:27.670 --> 00:19:32.749 I have about 30, uh, mechanical clocks that I've collected over the years and 00:19:32.749 --> 00:19:38.625 my watches are all mechanical watches and, you know, and, and I, I I, you know, 00:19:38.635 --> 00:19:43.915 gears fascinate me, but if you can look at things, it's a lot easier to visualize 00:19:43.935 --> 00:19:49.625 things, and if you can understand how those work, then it makes it easy to 00:19:49.625 --> 00:19:55.555 translate to computers and things like that, because it's still just a logical 00:19:55.555 --> 00:19:59.135 progression and how parts interact with each other, and while you may not see 00:19:59.375 --> 00:20:03.405 mechanical things work within each other, there's still something going on there. 00:20:04.235 --> 00:20:07.775 And, and I guess in a way that that's what goes into critical thinking that goes 00:20:07.775 --> 00:20:10.895 into a lot of things that are important. 00:20:10.925 --> 00:20:16.265 And so going back to your showing your kids chat GPT and skipping Microsoft 00:20:16.284 --> 00:20:20.664 paint and all that stuff, if you've taught them how mechanics work, if you've taught 00:20:20.664 --> 00:20:22.890 them, How to build things with Legos. 00:20:22.910 --> 00:20:25.910 If you've taught them how to, you know, when I was a kid, we had Legos and erector 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.580 sets and, you know, and, and all of that. 00:20:29.370 --> 00:20:31.780 And I worked on engines with my dad constantly. 00:20:32.210 --> 00:20:36.659 And if you can understand that, then the rest of it just is just 00:20:36.659 --> 00:20:41.520 another way to apply that knowledge and that, and that experience. 00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:45.570 And once you see that it makes things click a lot easier. 00:20:45.820 --> 00:20:46.150 Yeah. 00:20:46.340 --> 00:20:49.410 Matt: I think I want to go back to. 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:54.909 Uh, the feeling of, of the feeling of maybe WordPress isn't for me anymore. 00:20:54.919 --> 00:20:59.019 I mean, you sort of coming off of, you know, your sabbatical or going 00:20:59.020 --> 00:21:01.229 into the sabbatical of six months or whatever, you're taking time 00:21:01.229 --> 00:21:02.239 off, you're done with this stuff. 00:21:02.509 --> 00:21:07.089 What, what was it about WordPress that you're, you know, obviously besides 00:21:07.089 --> 00:21:11.950 the, the stresses of our last interview, but what was it about WordPress? 00:21:11.950 --> 00:21:12.940 You were like, yeah, this is not for me. 00:21:12.940 --> 00:21:14.340 Was it, was it the software? 00:21:15.105 --> 00:21:18.835 Like, man, this thing is moving in a weird direction, or was it something else? 00:21:19.385 --> 00:21:19.605 I, 00:21:19.675 --> 00:21:23.095 Marc: I, well, you know, I think that part of it was there was 00:21:23.135 --> 00:21:24.335 a little bit of disconnect. 00:21:24.335 --> 00:21:29.404 Understand that we, that we had been dealing with two years of COVID, and 00:21:29.404 --> 00:21:35.104 there was that disconnect of no events, no real interactions with people. 00:21:35.594 --> 00:21:40.560 You kind of felt Or I, I shouldn't say you, I should say I felt, let's 00:21:40.560 --> 00:21:46.320 go to therapy once again, I feel as though I felt disconnected and 00:21:46.320 --> 00:21:48.360 like I was an island unto myself. 00:21:48.580 --> 00:21:52.139 And while I did interact with the people that I had established 00:21:52.139 --> 00:21:55.060 contacts with, a lot of those people had moved on to other things. 00:21:55.060 --> 00:21:57.870 There are some people that I know that are still running agencies, but they're 00:21:57.870 --> 00:21:59.470 not necessarily working with WordPress. 00:22:00.520 --> 00:22:05.500 Um, and, and it just felt far more fragmented to me. 00:22:06.089 --> 00:22:06.649 Add. 00:22:07.690 --> 00:22:14.600 On top of that, the fact that it did feel like everything was, had kind of 00:22:14.600 --> 00:22:20.859 evolved to this corporate, not a lot of room for startups, not a lot of room for 00:22:20.860 --> 00:22:25.830 people who are bootstrapping it, kind of feeling, which once again is, is because 00:22:25.830 --> 00:22:30.090 we're operating in a vacuum, because we're disconnected from everything, it just, 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:36.990 you know, it felt Like things were going in a direction that that it's not that 00:22:36.990 --> 00:22:40.970 I didn't think that that's the direction they should go Necessarily it was more 00:22:40.989 --> 00:22:47.129 that I didn't feel like there was a place for me in That particular the particular 00:22:47.129 --> 00:22:52.580 phase of evolution that WordPress was was in and going towards I mean the reality 00:22:52.580 --> 00:22:58.890 is those of us who have been around since 2013 or 2010 like I have or whatever. 00:22:59.310 --> 00:23:05.990 I think most of us We knew where WordPress was going, we've had 00:23:05.990 --> 00:23:10.030 conversations ad nauseum about, you know, the fact that it was getting 00:23:10.030 --> 00:23:13.510 bigger and bigger and was going more and more towards, you know, catering 00:23:13.510 --> 00:23:18.709 to the big corporate interests because it had to, because we have these events 00:23:18.709 --> 00:23:23.439 that cost money and these big corporate entities can afford to pay for them. 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:25.899 And that's just natural progression. 00:23:26.090 --> 00:23:27.389 You can't fault. 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:28.840 anything for that. 00:23:30.740 --> 00:23:33.920 So for me, it wasn't that I had any resentment or any hatred 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:35.630 or any, or any disappointment. 00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:41.040 It was, this is how things go and this is not where I feel 00:23:41.040 --> 00:23:42.639 comfortable or where I thrive. 00:23:43.300 --> 00:23:48.839 So, um, so it was more a matter of that, you know, I, I have. 00:23:49.715 --> 00:23:54.145 been, you know, made of enough, you know, enough trips around the sun 00:23:54.175 --> 00:23:57.425 to kind of know where my strengths are, where my weaknesses are. 00:23:57.425 --> 00:24:01.565 And I'm, I, I'm also at this point in my life where I'm not going to spend a lot of 00:24:01.575 --> 00:24:04.105 time trying to make up for my weaknesses. 00:24:04.124 --> 00:24:09.915 I'm just going to focus on my strengths because, you know, Reality is, I'm on 00:24:10.034 --> 00:24:13.985 kind of the last half of my life, so, you know, I'm not going to spend a 00:24:13.985 --> 00:24:16.014 lot of time on, on that kind of thing. 00:24:16.465 --> 00:24:16.775 Yeah, 00:24:16.785 --> 00:24:20.345 Matt: having critical focus on, on areas that are really going 00:24:20.345 --> 00:24:23.854 to, whatever, resonate you or, or make you feel satisfied. 00:24:23.854 --> 00:24:25.565 I mean, I, I'm sort of in the same boat. 00:24:26.740 --> 00:24:31.240 This is my first, uh, just under a year at Gravity Forms and went to WordCamp 00:24:31.250 --> 00:24:34.270 US in DC this, this past summer. 00:24:34.270 --> 00:24:39.350 And it was the first time that I've seen WordCamp from the, 00:24:39.540 --> 00:24:40.790 the sponsorship side, right? 00:24:40.790 --> 00:24:43.860 I never did it with my, with my small agency. 00:24:43.870 --> 00:24:48.280 And when I was at Pagely for three years, we never did it except for Pressnomics, 00:24:48.290 --> 00:24:50.340 which was a whole event that they ran. 00:24:50.929 --> 00:24:56.100 But I agree, man, the I'm curious, curious isn't even the right word. 00:24:56.110 --> 00:25:02.390 Like I am bearish on where word camps are going in the future 00:25:02.390 --> 00:25:05.320 because the costs are insane. 00:25:05.999 --> 00:25:12.180 And the return on investment, like you said earlier, whew, boy, like if I was 00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:18.620 a smaller shop, like a, a, a barn tube plugins or, uh, paid memberships, pro 00:25:18.620 --> 00:25:22.910 Lyft or LMS, like these folks that are out there that you have great businesses, 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:25.139 solid businesses for many years. 00:25:26.009 --> 00:25:32.450 To get into like a WordCamp US, you're talking 30, 40, 000 minimum 00:25:32.689 --> 00:25:36.639 to sponsor, to be there, to have like a few members of your team there. 00:25:37.070 --> 00:25:38.760 Insanity, right? 00:25:38.780 --> 00:25:42.909 You'll never get that money back from, from that three day event. 00:25:43.379 --> 00:25:45.069 And that's just, that's like nothing. 00:25:45.249 --> 00:25:47.030 They have the bigger, I mean, hosting or. 00:25:47.515 --> 00:25:49.555 Uh, foundation plus sponsor of the WP minute. 00:25:49.585 --> 00:25:52.505 Like their booth was massive, right? 00:25:53.315 --> 00:25:59.205 And I told them, hey, guys, the for the TV that you all rented for that booth in D. 00:25:59.205 --> 00:26:04.534 C., you could sponsor the WP minute for an entire year at my highest level for 00:26:04.564 --> 00:26:07.555 the money that you spend at these events. 00:26:07.905 --> 00:26:08.945 Marc: And that's evergreen. 00:26:08.995 --> 00:26:11.675 And that's evergreen content that they're investing in with 00:26:11.675 --> 00:26:11.865 Matt: you. 00:26:11.985 --> 00:26:12.965 Yeah, 100%. 00:26:13.365 --> 00:26:15.119 And it makes me wonder, like, you know. 00:26:15.850 --> 00:26:19.520 You know, sometimes people get into the theory crafting of, of automatic 00:26:19.520 --> 00:26:25.440 and it's, uh, you know, uh, uh, overlordness of, of the space, but I 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:29.150 don't even think automatic would do it if all of these events, if all of 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:30.580 these sponsors pulled out of the events. 00:26:30.580 --> 00:26:36.375 I mean, how much Could they afford to run a 3, 000 person, you know, 00:26:36.405 --> 00:26:39.795 event like this with, with these, with these events coming, it'd be like a 00:26:39.795 --> 00:26:42.445 hundred K minimum for these big brands. 00:26:42.445 --> 00:26:47.724 It's, it's, it's insanity spinning back to, let's talk about the 00:26:47.724 --> 00:26:49.945 software, uh, of WordPress. 00:26:50.474 --> 00:26:52.324 I have been at 20. 00:26:52.355 --> 00:26:53.855 We talked about this on the, on the round table. 00:26:53.855 --> 00:26:55.014 I think we touched upon it anyway. 00:26:55.024 --> 00:26:59.284 I think 2024, which is the most recent WordPress default theme is one of the 00:26:59.284 --> 00:27:02.105 most important themes, um, that the. 00:27:02.310 --> 00:27:05.610 That the core of WordPress has released in in quite some time 00:27:06.110 --> 00:27:07.960 because I think it's going to allow. 00:27:08.805 --> 00:27:12.335 Users to get into the site building experience using blocks 00:27:12.335 --> 00:27:13.835 using the site editor, et cetera. 00:27:14.215 --> 00:27:18.415 It's fairly good looking It's got a lot of options a lot of rough edges still 00:27:18.974 --> 00:27:25.504 I see people still like pushing against blocks and site editing and Block based 00:27:25.504 --> 00:27:28.614 themes where you land on that spectrum. 00:27:28.614 --> 00:27:32.254 It's gonna lead into another part of the discussion But where do you lean in to 00:27:32.254 --> 00:27:36.605 the discussion of block based themes in the future of site editing with WordPress? 00:27:37.120 --> 00:27:39.909 Marc: I think it's the way that it has to go, whether we like it or not. 00:27:39.990 --> 00:27:44.220 I, you know, I think that, uh, you know, look, you brought up DOS. 00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:45.530 I'm an old DOS guy. 00:27:45.540 --> 00:27:47.120 You know, I like command line. 00:27:47.149 --> 00:27:48.290 I like text. 00:27:48.300 --> 00:27:52.060 If you ask me what the ideal website is, it's something that's like 00:27:52.069 --> 00:27:53.890 Craigslist, only more organized. 00:27:53.959 --> 00:27:56.109 I mean, you know, so like, I don't want graphics. 00:27:56.110 --> 00:27:56.910 I can design that. 00:27:56.940 --> 00:27:59.090 I, yeah, I just want the information. 00:27:59.120 --> 00:27:59.460 Right. 00:27:59.760 --> 00:28:00.520 But that's me. 00:28:00.910 --> 00:28:05.970 I think we have a few issues here, and, and one is, first of all, you 00:28:05.970 --> 00:28:11.769 know, uh, Matt Mullenweg, uh, several years ago, you know, and, and once 00:28:11.769 --> 00:28:14.709 in a while it comes up again as a, as a theme, which is, you know, the 00:28:14.710 --> 00:28:16.320 Wix and Squarespace thing, right? 00:28:16.810 --> 00:28:19.280 And, and, you know, we have to compete with that. 00:28:19.290 --> 00:28:24.880 Now, WordPress is 43 percent of, or 42%, or however you want to look at 00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:31.825 it, it's still the majority of, a huge market share with the next person, the 00:28:31.825 --> 00:28:34.155 next competitor being way behind that. 00:28:34.824 --> 00:28:35.345 Um, 00:28:35.574 --> 00:28:40.024 Matt: and also being Shopify, which is not even a pure publishing platform. 00:28:40.175 --> 00:28:43.095 Marc: I don't even know what to call Shopify other than just e commerce. 00:28:43.115 --> 00:28:43.524 Right. 00:28:43.604 --> 00:28:47.574 And, and, and so you've got that to compete with. 00:28:48.014 --> 00:28:50.674 And the only way that you're going to get. 00:28:52.110 --> 00:28:56.610 New people interested is if they can drag and drop. 00:28:56.610 --> 00:28:58.740 I brought up the experience that I had. 00:28:58.780 --> 00:29:02.489 I had the experience with, on the elevator with that, that woman who 00:29:02.509 --> 00:29:08.200 just attacked us in, in Phoenix because we worked for WordPress and she tried 00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:09.539 to use it and absolutely hated it. 00:29:09.539 --> 00:29:12.470 And I cannot tell you the vitriol that came out of her mouth. 00:29:12.520 --> 00:29:16.920 I mean, it, it is not safe for people of my age to hear. 00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:21.640 And so it was kind of an insane sort of experience. 00:29:22.115 --> 00:29:27.575 But I, but I think that the thing, I think one of the things is though 00:29:27.575 --> 00:29:29.265 we are asking the wrong question. 00:29:29.375 --> 00:29:33.865 And I think that Dragon, I remember when we went from DOS to Windows and 00:29:33.865 --> 00:29:35.245 everyone was like, Oh, I hate Windows. 00:29:35.245 --> 00:29:36.095 I hate this and that. 00:29:36.095 --> 00:29:38.115 And you know, I hate the graphic interface and blah, blah, blah. 00:29:38.115 --> 00:29:39.774 But look at what's become the market share. 00:29:40.255 --> 00:29:40.735 Okay. 00:29:40.775 --> 00:29:45.795 You have Mac and you have Windows, you know, you have a smaller, uh, 00:29:45.805 --> 00:29:47.955 group of people who like Linux, but. 00:29:48.145 --> 00:29:51.415 Ask how many people who use Linux are running command line all the time. 00:29:51.415 --> 00:29:54.275 They're using a graphical interface drag and drop too. 00:29:54.285 --> 00:29:58.495 So it's just the way, it's just the way that things are going to go. 00:29:59.385 --> 00:30:05.014 The question is how do we really compete to where it's super easy? 00:30:05.815 --> 00:30:10.205 To get to that drag and drop interface, because the thing with Wix and the thing 00:30:10.205 --> 00:30:14.215 with, with Squarespace is you sign up and you're dragging and dropping immediately 00:30:14.645 --> 00:30:19.665 with WordPress, you have to go to a backend and it kind of reminds me of the, 00:30:19.675 --> 00:30:22.105 the analogy I like to use is, is that of. 00:30:22.285 --> 00:30:24.095 an iPhone versus an Android. 00:30:24.525 --> 00:30:27.285 It's not super well known, but some people know this. 00:30:27.745 --> 00:30:32.234 iPhone, when they created their phones, it was designed with 00:30:32.454 --> 00:30:35.345 touch in mind from the get go. 00:30:35.345 --> 00:30:42.185 So it processes touch first, whereas Android was designed first, then they 00:30:42.795 --> 00:30:46.675 found out about Apple's designs, and so then they added touch and all of that. 00:30:47.020 --> 00:30:48.830 as a secondary process. 00:30:49.330 --> 00:30:53.190 So if you, even today, if you sit with an Android, and I'm an Android 00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:56.769 user, but if you have an Android next to an iPhone, and you drag, and you 00:30:56.769 --> 00:31:01.620 do all this stuff, you'll find that the touch response on an Apple, on an 00:31:01.630 --> 00:31:04.300 iPhone, is faster than on an Android. 00:31:04.330 --> 00:31:07.220 Android makes up for that in, you know, code enhancements, 00:31:07.330 --> 00:31:10.020 but of course processing enhancements and things like that. 00:31:10.530 --> 00:31:14.120 I think that that's the issue that we run into with WordPress. 00:31:14.120 --> 00:31:16.179 WordPress is that cool. 00:31:17.590 --> 00:31:23.260 Block editor and everything is designed in the back end as a secondary process 00:31:24.150 --> 00:31:28.509 Whereas Wix and Squarespace they were designed with that drag and drop as the 00:31:28.509 --> 00:31:34.929 primary process first So it will always be faster now speed is important But if 00:31:34.929 --> 00:31:39.980 it's also more complicated, that's where you run into problems And that's what we 00:31:39.990 --> 00:31:45.820 have to do with WordPress is we have to accept that Graphical editing is here, you 00:31:45.820 --> 00:31:55.350 know Like it or not, we have to make it so that it's easy first, and speed will come. 00:31:56.310 --> 00:32:00.139 Ease of use has to be like at the forefront, and right now there's 00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:03.270 still a little brain damage that you have to go through in order to get to 00:32:03.270 --> 00:32:08.739 that point, whereas these other quote unquote competitors are far easier. 00:32:08.740 --> 00:32:11.629 You, you log in, you sign up, and you're ready to go. 00:32:13.070 --> 00:32:17.040 Now the bigger question to me, and I, I, I know I'm going on here, the bigger 00:32:17.040 --> 00:32:21.830 question to me though is, and this is a question that I think web hosting 00:32:21.830 --> 00:32:25.929 companies need to ask, is how do we continue to make websites relevant? 00:32:27.570 --> 00:32:32.300 And the reason I say that is because you look at something like Facebook. 00:32:32.910 --> 00:32:37.630 I can set up a Facebook business page and have engagement in less than an hour. 00:32:39.170 --> 00:32:44.390 How do you compete with that, even if it doesn't look great, right? 00:32:44.810 --> 00:32:48.560 A website takes a little bit of work, and then you have to drive traffic to it, 00:32:48.560 --> 00:32:51.690 and you have to do all these things, and you have to, you know, even if you have 00:32:51.700 --> 00:32:56.180 the best SEO on planet Earth, and every page scores 100, and all these things, 00:32:56.869 --> 00:33:00.269 you're still going to build up to getting traffic, whereas with something like a 00:33:00.270 --> 00:33:04.410 Facebook or some other social media, it's very easy to get engagement very quickly. 00:33:05.050 --> 00:33:10.690 And when we look at You know, how do we get more users to our platform? 00:33:11.420 --> 00:33:16.070 We tend to go on this feeding frenzy of people that are already, you know, 00:33:16.070 --> 00:33:18.300 having websites or, or things like that. 00:33:18.699 --> 00:33:21.820 But how long is it going to be before people change their thinking to, I 00:33:21.830 --> 00:33:24.750 don't need a website anymore, I can just put up a Facebook business page. 00:33:24.750 --> 00:33:25.859 It's already happening. 00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:29.510 And, and that's what we need to do, I think. 00:33:29.595 --> 00:33:34.335 Personally, that we need to focus on how do we keep websites relevant? 00:33:34.345 --> 00:33:35.035 What can we do? 00:33:35.035 --> 00:33:35.635 That's unique. 00:33:36.135 --> 00:33:39.685 You know, there's of course e commerce and things like that, but, but I think that 00:33:39.685 --> 00:33:45.135 that's actually the next biggest threat to our ecosystem and it's, it's from 00:33:45.144 --> 00:33:50.225 outside of the WordPress world and outside of website development and web hosting. 00:33:51.195 --> 00:33:51.525 Matt: Yeah. 00:33:51.525 --> 00:33:55.515 And when you put a, there was just the crazy thread, um, I'll try to 00:33:55.515 --> 00:33:56.675 remember to put it in the show notes. 00:33:56.675 --> 00:33:57.574 I don't know if you caught it. 00:33:57.584 --> 00:33:59.025 It was of course, like kind of. 00:33:59.485 --> 00:34:02.715 Propaganda ish from a, uh, AI writing tool. 00:34:03.105 --> 00:34:06.795 Uh, I don't know if you saw it on Twitter, Matt Mullenweg, Mullenweg actually 00:34:06.795 --> 00:34:10.465 retweeted somebody else's response to it, but the guy pretty much came out, 00:34:10.495 --> 00:34:14.814 you know, he owns the AI writing tool and he's like, look what I did, we stole 00:34:14.824 --> 00:34:19.644 millions of dollars worth of traffic from our competitors, you know, and he just. 00:34:19.935 --> 00:34:23.685 You read the thread and it's just like, all we, all we did air quotes was, 00:34:24.175 --> 00:34:28.665 you know, take the site map, break it down into HRFs to see what the top 00:34:28.665 --> 00:34:31.015 content was, feed it into our machine. 00:34:31.015 --> 00:34:32.394 And it created a bunch of content. 00:34:32.394 --> 00:34:34.915 And over the course of a year, we started outranking our 00:34:34.915 --> 00:34:36.744 competitors, yada, yada, yada. 00:34:36.745 --> 00:34:40.105 And it blew up because of like, you know, it was fanfare and it was millions 00:34:40.105 --> 00:34:43.865 of dollars worth of traffic allegedly, you know, and, and somebody else cited, 00:34:43.865 --> 00:34:49.334 well, you know, really what the, the real issue here is, is Google allowing this. 00:34:49.875 --> 00:34:56.015 You know to happen and in stating in us that the only way to get traffic to our 00:34:56.015 --> 00:35:00.845 website is Search right and then they're gonna tax you on it by putting ads in 00:35:00.845 --> 00:35:05.264 place and you have to buy ads to get that traffic And then it just flips around in 00:35:05.264 --> 00:35:09.705 like this crazy New York Stock Exchange type of fashion and whoever's paying more 00:35:09.705 --> 00:35:11.275 is gonna get it yada yada yada, right? 00:35:11.635 --> 00:35:16.135 And that's the real impact on the open web and You know, if you threw 00:35:16.135 --> 00:35:21.875 search out the window, you know, this is, this is a lot harder, right? 00:35:21.895 --> 00:35:26.595 It's the same, your example of Facebook page is like the same 00:35:27.065 --> 00:35:34.395 stance, you know, web users or web agencies or web professionals tried 00:35:34.535 --> 00:35:36.715 to reinforce with our customers. 00:35:37.164 --> 00:35:38.585 That is rented land. 00:35:38.635 --> 00:35:42.075 You don't want that because the algorithm can change at any time. 00:35:42.085 --> 00:35:43.735 You don't own it, et cetera, et cetera. 00:35:44.120 --> 00:35:49.240 That's like the same flag we're going to be trying to fly for websites, you know, 00:35:49.340 --> 00:35:54.080 in the future and there's a big, this happened, this is happening across the 00:35:54.080 --> 00:35:58.109 board on all areas of, of, of content. 00:35:58.120 --> 00:36:03.010 I mean, look at news, most people are going to get it in a filtered fashion 00:36:03.010 --> 00:36:08.660 coming out of, let's say Google news or yahoo news or facebook news or facebook 00:36:08.890 --> 00:36:10.820 algorithm or twitter algorithm, right? 00:36:10.830 --> 00:36:11.999 So it's already like. 00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:15.850 What is the open web to an average user, right? 00:36:16.070 --> 00:36:18.950 Like when they're reading and consuming content, it's already 00:36:18.950 --> 00:36:20.800 coming out of another algorithm. 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:25.199 It's not, but even to you and me, it's happening because it's not like you 00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:28.939 and I are searching, let's find a new website about, you know, this news source. 00:36:29.100 --> 00:36:29.860 We don't do that. 00:36:29.860 --> 00:36:31.520 We just let the algorithm tell us. 00:36:32.040 --> 00:36:35.750 Um, and this is also happening in, because I live in two 00:36:35.750 --> 00:36:39.799 worlds, WordPress and podcasting, because they're both open source. 00:36:40.045 --> 00:36:46.185 Publishing, you know, one's written, one's audio, but YouTube is finally like 00:36:46.435 --> 00:36:51.935 or Google is finally reinvesting back into into podcasting and now they're 00:36:51.935 --> 00:36:56.355 allowing folks to have their YouTube channels will just consume an RSS feed. 00:36:56.355 --> 00:36:58.975 I don't want to get like super technical into this, but just like 00:36:58.975 --> 00:37:00.355 you would go and give your RSS. 00:37:00.375 --> 00:37:02.975 Podcasts, RSS feed to Apple or Spotify. 00:37:03.005 --> 00:37:04.675 Now you're going to do that in YouTube. 00:37:04.715 --> 00:37:08.075 If you have a YouTube account and it's just going to scoop up the RSS feed. 00:37:08.485 --> 00:37:12.575 The issue is, is, you know, you have all of these hosting platforms 00:37:12.575 --> 00:37:17.305 that for podcasting that have, let's say dynamic ad insertion or like 00:37:17.334 --> 00:37:21.505 other ad mechanisms for the creator to make money, YouTube is saying. 00:37:21.700 --> 00:37:22.650 That is not allowed. 00:37:22.730 --> 00:37:23.890 We're going to strip that out. 00:37:24.220 --> 00:37:27.490 Uh, you're not, and even if it gets in there and we find out probably from the 00:37:27.490 --> 00:37:29.510 algorithm, it gets demonetized, right? 00:37:29.510 --> 00:37:32.380 And they're only going to want their ad platform in. 00:37:32.959 --> 00:37:35.679 And then you have all these podcasters who are like, Oh, great. 00:37:35.690 --> 00:37:37.610 Now I can have a video podcast. 00:37:37.669 --> 00:37:41.040 Well, no, you don't, don't want for that. 00:37:41.100 --> 00:37:44.890 Like, don't let that be your goal because the only place it'll be available. 00:37:45.385 --> 00:37:47.255 is YouTube, right? 00:37:47.275 --> 00:37:52.365 And people just don't get it that when you feed the machine, we're losing 00:37:52.565 --> 00:37:54.425 the opportunity for open publishing. 00:37:55.175 --> 00:37:59.494 I mean, at the end of the day, I think the one, can you imagine, can you 00:37:59.495 --> 00:38:06.005 imagine 20, 30 years ago, if RSS, the technology was allowed to flourish, 00:38:06.035 --> 00:38:12.045 if like everyone just had an RSS feed and technology was built on top of RSS 00:38:12.045 --> 00:38:15.225 feed, like follower count feeds and. 00:38:15.855 --> 00:38:19.455 It would be amazing, but what the, what the big tech companies that would say, 00:38:19.455 --> 00:38:20.725 no, no, no, get that the hell out of here. 00:38:20.735 --> 00:38:24.185 We don't want anybody to see this RSS thing, right? 00:38:24.185 --> 00:38:26.314 Cause now that, that means people could talk to each other 00:38:26.315 --> 00:38:27.304 and they could share data. 00:38:27.305 --> 00:38:27.965 We don't want that. 00:38:28.225 --> 00:38:31.854 We want it all plumbed through our, uh, algorithm. 00:38:31.854 --> 00:38:34.160 And it's, um, It's it's crazy. 00:38:34.170 --> 00:38:35.460 There's no question there either. 00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:38.760 It's just like I started to think about what the heck's happening to the web 00:38:39.490 --> 00:38:41.440 Marc: Yeah, but that's a hard sales pitch, isn't it? 00:38:41.470 --> 00:38:44.249 Yeah, because here's here's the reality the reality of things is 00:38:44.249 --> 00:38:49.099 that you can't empathize or feel something till you've been through it 00:38:49.350 --> 00:38:53.350 Mm hmm, you can fake empathize it But until you've been through it, right? 00:38:53.380 --> 00:38:56.410 You, you can't really, you can't really feel it. 00:38:56.830 --> 00:38:59.380 People make decisions based on what they feel. 00:38:59.830 --> 00:39:05.200 So unless you've been screwed by a Google algorithm or a Facebook algorithm, or 00:39:05.205 --> 00:39:09.640 somebody's algorithm, or a Gutenberg block, or a Gutenberg block or, 00:39:09.700 --> 00:39:13.720 you know, or, or, or something like that, it's, it's a hard sales pitch. 00:39:13.720 --> 00:39:15.090 And, and, and. 00:39:15.725 --> 00:39:19.315 I mean, this is something, when it comes to me marketing, this is something 00:39:19.315 --> 00:39:20.455 that I struggle with every day. 00:39:20.635 --> 00:39:26.025 How do, for instance, and, and, you know, this is not necessarily, you know, 00:39:26.075 --> 00:39:29.005 I, I don't want to like, hey, this is our product and you want to buy it. 00:39:30.665 --> 00:39:35.325 But a struggle that I have, for instance, with mainwp is mainwp is 00:39:35.325 --> 00:39:39.625 kind of, I think, the only plugin that is, you own it, you own the 00:39:39.625 --> 00:39:42.410 data, you own, Everything about it. 00:39:42.410 --> 00:39:46.360 It's not a SaaS, it's not hosted on a cloud or anything like that. 00:39:46.390 --> 00:39:47.410 You have everything. 00:39:47.410 --> 00:39:47.740 Right. 00:39:48.160 --> 00:39:50.350 How do you pitch that so it's meaningful to somebody? 00:39:50.350 --> 00:39:54.310 Well, it's not meaningful to them until they've lost their data or until 00:39:54.610 --> 00:39:59.920 to, to, or, or the, or, uh, a cloud service hikes up their prices or, 00:39:59.950 --> 00:40:03.490 you know, or a SaaS model hikes up their prices or something like that. 00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:07.210 Then all of a sudden it becomes meaningful because you felt it. 00:40:07.770 --> 00:40:08.080 Right? 00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:12.760 We vote for whoever we want as a, you know, in a political party because 00:40:12.770 --> 00:40:17.870 we felt something that burned us in a certain way and that becomes our one 00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:20.190 issue that we vote on or vote against. 00:40:20.979 --> 00:40:26.410 And, and so that's a tough pitch when you say, look, yeah, you can 00:40:26.410 --> 00:40:32.610 set up your Facebook page in an hour and have engagement in an hour, but 00:40:32.670 --> 00:40:36.290 you don't own any of that data and they're collecting all kinds of stuff. 00:40:36.895 --> 00:40:40.635 And you never know when they're going to suddenly start charging for that and 00:40:40.635 --> 00:40:44.965 you don't know this and you don't know that Because you're on their platform 00:40:45.005 --> 00:40:50.484 and until we've all experienced a certain amount of that It's it's very difficult 00:40:50.495 --> 00:40:55.195 to sell people and when you Bring up the average user, you know, the average user, 00:40:55.245 --> 00:40:58.865 they just want to get on their computer, go to the web, find what they want to 00:40:58.865 --> 00:41:00.755 find and get what they want to get. 00:41:01.155 --> 00:41:02.104 And, and that's it. 00:41:03.014 --> 00:41:05.994 Matt: Let me wrap it up with the two call to actions. 00:41:07.174 --> 00:41:10.324 Then we didn't, we didn't really talk too much about, about your businesses, 00:41:10.324 --> 00:41:11.395 but I, but I want to give you. 00:41:11.810 --> 00:41:12.800 I do want to give you some air time. 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:13.880 It's fantastic conversation. 00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:15.560 I mean, it went by in seconds. 00:41:16.010 --> 00:41:17.599 Mainwp, mainwp. 00:41:17.600 --> 00:41:19.380 com, sitedistrict. 00:41:19.410 --> 00:41:19.700 com. 00:41:19.700 --> 00:41:22.339 Mainwp, I'm just looking at the functionality. 00:41:22.350 --> 00:41:28.210 You can start for free and then going pro is starting at monthly 00:41:28.210 --> 00:41:34.380 29 bucks a month, manager sites, 32 extensions, site district, sitedistrict. 00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:36.160 com, WordPress hosting. 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:38.110 You are the sales guy there. 00:41:38.120 --> 00:41:39.900 If somebody reaches out, they can, they can chat with you. 00:41:40.290 --> 00:41:41.390 Marc: Yeah, they can chat with me. 00:41:41.430 --> 00:41:44.990 Um, what I really like to do with Site District because it is a unique platform 00:41:45.010 --> 00:41:48.990 is I like to set up one on one demos with, with them, like in a Zoom session. 00:41:48.990 --> 00:41:51.980 So we're not interested in super fast growth. 00:41:52.019 --> 00:41:55.740 We're interested, we fancy ourselves as a collaborative host. 00:41:56.060 --> 00:41:59.320 So we're not just a utility that's just there to host your space. 00:41:59.349 --> 00:42:04.789 We're there to help you get your online presence working as efficiently 00:42:04.809 --> 00:42:06.509 and as securely as possible. 00:42:06.939 --> 00:42:09.949 And we have a ton of tools in the dashboard that. 00:42:10.135 --> 00:42:15.125 Nobody else has, and you can get started for free and, and build a 00:42:15.125 --> 00:42:19.265 whole site and use 100 percent of our functionality for free with, with 00:42:19.265 --> 00:42:21.105 really pretty much no restrictions. 00:42:21.245 --> 00:42:26.014 But, um, but I do prefer to sit down and get to know our customers 00:42:26.055 --> 00:42:27.324 kind of one on one with that. 00:42:27.334 --> 00:42:28.055 So, yeah, 00:42:28.135 --> 00:42:29.715 Matt: I did the same thing at Pagely. 00:42:29.715 --> 00:42:33.455 If you go to the pricing page at Site District, you can play with some sliders. 00:42:33.865 --> 00:42:36.565 Uh, websites start for 25 bucks a month. 00:42:36.905 --> 00:42:39.025 Uh, I brought it all the way to the end. 00:42:39.095 --> 00:42:45.505 7, 144, which is, uh, in enterprise world, not that bad 00:42:45.505 --> 00:42:48.254 Marc: because 00:42:48.255 --> 00:42:51.685 Matt: I've seen some bills before at Pagely for some big brands 00:42:51.685 --> 00:42:53.345 and seven grand isn't that bad. 00:42:53.654 --> 00:42:58.195 Marc: Uh, yeah, but I will also, I will also say not that I feel that that we're 00:42:58.195 --> 00:43:03.135 limited, but I would say that we really cater to, I'd say we're a good host for 00:43:03.135 --> 00:43:05.045 about 90 percent of the people out there. 00:43:05.465 --> 00:43:08.175 But there are some instances where we might say. 00:43:08.305 --> 00:43:09.285 We're not the host for you. 00:43:09.285 --> 00:43:10.635 And we're happy to say that too. 00:43:10.665 --> 00:43:14.825 We, you know, we really are interested in customer retention 00:43:15.175 --> 00:43:16.485 and slow, steady growth. 00:43:16.525 --> 00:43:21.564 And, and, um, and so, uh, we're very frank with our customers. 00:43:21.734 --> 00:43:25.455 They know exactly where we stand and, and, uh, we're, we're happy 00:43:25.455 --> 00:43:28.645 to help them with their online presence if, if we're a good fit, 00:43:29.475 --> 00:43:29.735 Matt: cool. 00:43:29.795 --> 00:43:30.605 mainwp. 00:43:30.635 --> 00:43:31.695 com site, district. 00:43:31.845 --> 00:43:32.305 com mark. 00:43:32.305 --> 00:43:33.095 Thanks for hanging out today. 00:43:33.690 --> 00:43:34.030 Marc: All right. 00:43:34.070 --> 00:43:34.580 Thanks, Matt. 00:43:37.650 --> 00:43:39.100 Matt: That's it for today's episode. 00:43:39.150 --> 00:43:41.950 Get the weekly newsletter at TheWPMinute. 00:43:41.950 --> 00:43:43.800 com Slash subscribe. 00:43:43.900 --> 00:43:46.989 Want to support the show and join a Slack group filled with 00:43:46.989 --> 00:43:48.460 WordPress professionals like you? 00:43:48.860 --> 00:43:53.389 Talk about the news, 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