[00:00:07.13 - 00:00:10.00] Good morning, good afternoon and good evening.
[00:00:10.00 - 00:00:14.08] My name is Andreas Konstantinou and I'd like to welcome you to the Rethink Culture
[00:00:14.08 - 00:00:18.17] Podcast, the podcast that shines the spotlight on leaders of businesses that
[00:00:18.17 - 00:00:21.03] people love to work for.
[00:00:21.03 - 00:00:27.11] I sometimes like to say I'm an unintentional micromanager turned
[00:00:27.11 - 00:00:28.22] intentional servant leader.
[00:00:28.22 - 00:00:33.00] I'm also the founder of Rethink Culture, which is a company that helps businesses
[00:00:33.00 - 00:00:36.08] turn their culture into a KPI and therefore manage and improve their
[00:00:36.08 - 00:00:37.10] culture.
[00:00:37.18 - 00:00:43.16] But most importantly, today I have the pleasure of welcoming fellow
[00:00:43.16 - 00:00:46.23] workplace culture geek, as I would say.
[00:00:46.23 - 00:00:50.20] Gustavo Razzetti, he's a workplace culture consultant, author and speaker.
[00:00:50.20 - 00:00:53.20] He's the founder and CEO of Fearless Culture.
[00:00:54.03 - 00:00:55.19] I love the word fearless.
[00:00:55.19 - 00:00:59.05] It's a consultancy that helps organizations design better workplace
[00:00:59.05 - 00:01:00.01] culture.
[00:01:00.01 - 00:01:05.01] He's worked for 30 plus years on the topic with a diverse range of organizations from
[00:01:05.01 - 00:01:09.07] Fortune 500 companies to startups and nonprofits.
[00:01:09.11 - 00:01:14.23] He's written a book called Remote Not Distant, which explains how to run a
[00:01:14.23 - 00:01:16.23] remote organization.
[00:01:17.00 - 00:01:20.19] And he's also the creator of Culture Design Canvas and framework used by a
[00:01:20.19 - 00:01:25.05] number of teams to design and improve their organizational culture.
[00:01:25.05 - 00:01:28.13] And he tells me he loves scuba diving.
[00:01:28.20 - 00:01:31.09] And I'm taking my children to scuba diving this summer.
[00:01:31.09 - 00:01:35.08] So we were exchanging stories about scuba diving.
[00:01:35.08 - 00:01:38.12] And he also does kayaking, road cycling, cooking.
[00:01:38.12 - 00:01:39.10] And much more.
[00:01:39.10 - 00:01:43.15] And with that, very welcome to Rethink Culture podcast, Gustavo.
[00:01:43.15 - 00:01:47.15] Hey, Andreas and everyone who's joining, I'm very excited to be in here.
[00:01:47.15 - 00:01:49.02] Thank you for hosting me.
[00:01:49.02 - 00:01:54.05] So tell us a bit more, what is Fearless Culture and what drove you to create
[00:01:54.05 - 00:01:55.14] Fearless Culture, Gustavo?
[00:01:55.14 - 00:02:01.15] I would say that Fearless Culture is more of an accelerator of positive culture
[00:02:01.15 - 00:02:02.19] change.
[00:02:02.19 - 00:02:08.00] And you mentioned the word fearless, and I came to that term many years ago while
[00:02:08.00 - 00:02:13.16] researching on how Navy SEALs basically prepare their team members.
[00:02:13.16 - 00:02:18.04] And one of the things that's important, fearless or fearlessness is not the
[00:02:18.04 - 00:02:19.15] absence of fear.
[00:02:19.15 - 00:02:21.10] It's actually how we
[00:02:21.10 - 00:02:26.08] recognize fear as a powerful emotion and we're able to overcome it.
[00:02:26.08 - 00:02:30.19] And that's basically in the Navy SEALs training they say if you don't take care
[00:02:30.19 - 00:02:35.10] of fear into account you are going to be get killed.
[00:02:35.10 - 00:02:39.21] So fear is an emotion that's telling us that something is about to happen and that
[00:02:39.21 - 00:02:44.19] emotion can help us better prepare, better react and be ready for action and of
[00:02:44.19 - 00:02:48.19] course hopefully not to be killed but to help other people thrive.
[00:02:48.19 - 00:02:49.16] And that's what we do.
[00:02:49.16 - 00:02:54.19] We are a consulting firm, but we also train people, consultants, corporate
[00:02:54.19 - 00:02:59.08] executives across the world with our framework to make sure that not only us,
[00:02:59.08 - 00:03:04.02] but many other people can drive positive culture change.
[00:03:04.03 - 00:03:12.12] And what drove you or what's the path that took you to creating Fearless Culture?
[00:03:12.12 - 00:03:19.21] Like, how, where did you grow up and what were your early influences that kind of
[00:03:19.21 - 00:03:21.11] pointed you in the direction of culture?
[00:03:21.12 - 00:03:25.04] For me, I mean, every time people ask me, why have you done X, Y and Z?
[00:03:25.04 - 00:03:31.02] I always tell that the plan came after the serendipity of different events.
[00:03:31.14 - 00:03:36.14] So two things first, I've been involved in culture in two aspects.
[00:03:36.14 - 00:03:43.19] First, as a former consultant in marketing and innovation, and then as a former CEO,
[00:03:43.19 - 00:03:45.09] I run many companies.
[00:03:45.09 - 00:03:49.01] So I had to deal with culture, whether I like it or not.
[00:03:49.01 - 00:03:55.07] And I realized at some point that many organizations, they are looking for better
[00:03:55.07 - 00:03:57.14] talent, for better ideas, et cetera.
[00:03:57.14 - 00:04:02.17] So they care a lot about the outcome and they forget that the potential is there,
[00:04:02.17 - 00:04:06.15] but what they don't have is the right culture that can amplify that talent,
[00:04:06.15 - 00:04:08.17] those resources, those ideas.
[00:04:08.17 - 00:04:12.06] So that's basically what shifted my career.
[00:04:12.08 - 00:04:15.11] There was one pivotal moment.
[00:04:15.11 - 00:04:18.07] I was selected to be part of a three month.
[00:04:18.07 - 00:04:24.08] program in Stanford about culture change or about change overall, a leadership.
[00:04:24.08 - 00:04:28.08] And I was basically working with people at Google, Bank of America, and so on and so
[00:04:28.08 - 00:04:33.23] forth, helping them drive that culture change and then see, and through all those
[00:04:33.23 - 00:04:37.22] learnings and experiences, say, Hey, I want to turn this into my new practice.
[00:04:37.22 - 00:04:40.11] And that's how I got started.
[00:04:40.22 - 00:04:46.07] The, going back to your other question, what was my childhood influence, if any,
[00:04:46.07 - 00:04:51.15] I remember my grandparent, he was a doctor, he was a successful one.
[00:04:51.15 - 00:04:58.02] And once he was offered to run a huge hospital, but because of the politics and
[00:04:58.02 - 00:05:03.07] everything that he had to sacrifice, had he basically accepted the position, he
[00:05:03.07 - 00:05:04.16] decided to decline it.
[00:05:04.16 - 00:05:07.07] It was a very well-paying position, very powerful.
[00:05:07.07 - 00:05:11.16] So for me, that was an inspiration throughout my career that we need to stick
[00:05:11.16 - 00:05:14.15] to who we are and not take shortcuts.
[00:05:14.15 - 00:05:16.04] And if something must...
[00:05:16.04 - 00:05:20.01] might help us grow but it's not who we are, well you need to decline and say no
[00:05:20.01 - 00:05:22.00] and stick to your path.
[00:05:22.00 - 00:05:25.19] When was there a time that you had to stick to your path in creating culture?
[00:05:26.12 - 00:05:34.01] Well, many times, without getting into confidential things, but for example, I
[00:05:34.01 - 00:05:40.23] worked with clients in the past and I observed CEOs from companies really being
[00:05:40.23 - 00:05:46.03] completely disrespectful to people, part of the team in front of me, and they did
[00:05:46.03 - 00:05:46.21] it for two reasons.
[00:05:46.21 - 00:05:51.21] First, because they didn't respect their team, and second, because they want to
[00:05:51.21 - 00:05:55.22] show in front of me that, hey, I'm the guy in charge, I'm the powerful guy.
[00:05:55.23 - 00:06:00.10] And I was immediately at the risk of losing my job because it wasn't my company
[00:06:00.10 - 00:06:04.18] at that time, whatever stood up and say, Hey, look, you're the boss.
[00:06:04.18 - 00:06:08.07] It's your company, but these people, you don't own them and you need to treat them
[00:06:08.07 - 00:06:09.14] with respect.
[00:06:09.14 - 00:06:13.12] And if they fail, it's your role to prepare them so they can do a great job,
[00:06:13.12 - 00:06:16.04] not to basically make them feel like trash.
[00:06:16.04 - 00:06:16.23] Right.
[00:06:17.05 - 00:06:22.08] And I was never fired for that, but I have a lot of interesting kind of conversation
[00:06:22.08 - 00:06:25.07] with that people then reaching out to my
[00:06:25.07 - 00:06:30.05] boss and basically getting all the pushback, but in the end they took it,
[00:06:30.05 - 00:06:30.13] right?
[00:06:30.13 - 00:06:35.17] So I learned that many times people are afraid of speaking up because of the
[00:06:35.17 - 00:06:39.18] consequences, but the worst consequence is remorse.
[00:06:39.18 - 00:06:43.06] Like considering, hey, I could have done something about this and I didn't.
[00:06:43.06 - 00:06:48.07] So I always try to live my life, not always, but I try most of the time to
[00:06:48.07 - 00:06:50.15] speak up and train other people to do so.
[00:06:50.15 - 00:06:57.16] And in your work, talking about leaders and I would say intentional leaders, do
[00:06:57.16 - 00:07:04.00] you get approached by the CEOs who think they need to, or where they need to change
[00:07:04.00 - 00:07:09.06] our culture or by the people working for the CEOs who are saying there's something
[00:07:09.06 - 00:07:10.12] here we need to fix?
[00:07:10.12 - 00:07:15.16] Some people that reach out simply want to continue improving their culture.
[00:07:15.16 - 00:07:18.00] So there's a, let's say one third.
[00:07:18.00 - 00:07:22.23] And then the other two thirds are people who want to improve their culture.
[00:07:22.23 - 00:07:26.23] Some because they realize it's really bad and some because they think they have a
[00:07:26.23 - 00:07:29.02] lot of room for improvement.
[00:07:29.08 - 00:07:30.13] Who reaches out?
[00:07:30.13 - 00:07:37.18] Sometimes are HR or CEOs, but in the end, we always, I like to talk to the CEO
[00:07:37.18 - 00:07:41.03] before committing to engaging with a client.
[00:07:41.03 - 00:07:45.05] The same way that clients choose who they want to work with, we have the right as
[00:07:45.05 - 00:07:48.00] consultants to choose which clients we want to take.
[00:07:48.00 - 00:07:52.06] So we do a lot of due diligence on our end as well to make sure that we have clients
[00:07:52.06 - 00:07:54.07] that are coachable, if you know what I mean.
[00:07:54.15 - 00:07:56.09] And do you find that?
[00:07:58.13 - 00:08:03.23] I mean, let me reflect personally.
[00:08:03.23 - 00:08:15.07] So if a CEO is not willing to recognize that culture reflects leadership and that
[00:08:15.07 - 00:08:21.10] some of the issues with culture might stem from their own behavior, that is a very
[00:08:21.10 - 00:08:23.08] difficult CEO to work with.
[00:08:23.08 - 00:08:25.23] Do you find like...
[00:08:26.00 - 00:08:32.04] Are you able to change people, like people who are initially reluctant to see their
[00:08:32.04 - 00:08:37.09] own mistakes or do you just see it as black and white?
[00:08:37.09 - 00:08:42.06] So are leaders able to change and see their own blind spots in how they're
[00:08:42.06 - 00:08:47.18] creating unintentionally harmful cultures, do you think?
[00:08:47.18 - 00:08:51.22] I try to avoid seeing the world in black and white to your point, right?
[00:08:51.22 - 00:08:56.04] There's not either you're in one camp or the other and I always tell the people
[00:08:56.04 - 00:09:00.21] that I train to like if all the leaders and all the organizations were perfect
[00:09:00.21 - 00:09:03.18] then they wouldn't need us, right?
[00:09:04.18 - 00:09:09.13] For me the most important thing I try to understand is the positive intent.
[00:09:10.05 - 00:09:13.09] Leaders are not going to change fast and many are going to struggle and many
[00:09:13.09 - 00:09:16.07] they're going to like progress is more like a...
[00:09:16.07 - 00:09:21.16] convoluted shape, it's not a linear thing as we try to think all the time.
[00:09:21.16 - 00:09:27.03] So leaders are usually less perfect than we were taught or books tell us about them
[00:09:27.03 - 00:09:29.23] because leading is a very complicated thing.
[00:09:29.23 - 00:09:35.04] Most leaders suck and that's a reality and that's not going to change anytime soon.
[00:09:35.04 - 00:09:39.06] If we start from that premise, it's easier rather than to see leaders with a
[00:09:39.06 - 00:09:42.19] perfectionist mindset and then when they're not there, this leader doesn't
[00:09:42.19 - 00:09:44.11] know how to lead, right?
[00:09:44.11 - 00:09:45.10] Second,
[00:09:45.10 - 00:09:53.21] Leadership is a very lonely activity and our role is to help leaders not being
[00:09:53.21 - 00:09:54.16] forced to change.
[00:09:54.16 - 00:09:59.10] When we see them as the same way leaders try to fix people that's wrong, we as
[00:09:59.10 - 00:10:02.07] consultants shouldn't try to fix leaders.
[00:10:03.08 - 00:10:06.23] For many reasons, first because people change because they want to so we don't
[00:10:06.23 - 00:10:12.03] change people, we help them spark that, give them tools or stuff for them to
[00:10:12.03 - 00:10:14.05] decide which path they want to take.
[00:10:14.08 - 00:10:18.00] And second, the more many people feel that you're trying to fix them, hey, you don't
[00:10:18.00 - 00:10:19.13] know how to lead, but I'm the expert.
[00:10:19.13 - 00:10:24.08] Never let a, I lead, but many consultants never led a company and they want to tell
[00:10:24.08 - 00:10:26.03] a CEO how to run a business, right?
[00:10:26.03 - 00:10:29.22] And so the guys are gonna shut down and that's not gonna work.
[00:10:29.22 - 00:10:35.02] So for me, the key filter where I draw a line is first, values are these people
[00:10:35.02 - 00:10:37.11] that have some basic ethics.
[00:10:37.11 - 00:10:41.13] They have a, they're good people who at least they try to be and work on that.
[00:10:41.13 - 00:10:44.02] And third, are they open to listening?
[00:10:44.07 - 00:10:45.08] Hmm.
[00:10:45.11 - 00:10:49.18] For example, when I run workshops, I always tell clients when I'm facilitating,
[00:10:49.18 - 00:10:53.05] when I'm in front of your crowd, whether it is with your executive team or others,
[00:10:53.05 - 00:10:55.13] I need to have full autonomy.
[00:10:55.13 - 00:10:58.17] If you're going to try to act as the leader in front, then we're not going to
[00:10:58.17 - 00:10:59.17] work together.
[00:10:59.17 - 00:11:05.02] And that's 90 % of the time I get a yes, you have, I'm going to, and then I take
[00:11:05.02 - 00:11:05.14] the client.
[00:11:05.14 - 00:11:07.11] When people say, no, no, I'm the leader.
[00:11:07.11 - 00:11:12.07] Well, you are leading the business, but let me help you lead how to become more
[00:11:12.07 - 00:11:13.15] aware about your culture.
[00:11:13.15 - 00:11:14.01] Yeah.
[00:11:14.01 - 00:11:21.13] And do you see when you work with an organization to improve its culture, do
[00:11:21.13 - 00:11:25.10] you see that change in the culture and or do you see that change in the leader?
[00:11:25.10 - 00:11:26.19] Like who changes first?
[00:11:27.07 - 00:11:30.12] It's a chicken or egg situation, so I would say both, right?
[00:11:30.12 - 00:11:32.08] Both need to happen at the once.
[00:11:32.08 - 00:11:38.05] First of all, leaders play a very important role in shaping culture, but
[00:11:38.05 - 00:11:40.19] they are not the only factor.
[00:11:40.19 - 00:11:44.18] So putting the blame that if the culture is broken is just because of leader,
[00:11:44.18 - 00:11:48.08] that's basically getting rid of response.
[00:11:48.08 - 00:11:51.21] For example, how does a culture become toxic?
[00:11:51.21 - 00:11:55.14] Not just because one leader is acting toxically.
[00:11:55.14 - 00:12:00.05] But the other guys, especially the direct reports, are not only not doing anything,
[00:12:00.05 - 00:12:03.19] but actually looking to the other side or copying the same behaviors.
[00:12:03.20 - 00:12:08.01] So if, for example, a leader is not acting well and the other leaders are not pushing
[00:12:08.01 - 00:12:14.04] back, they are responsible as much, if not more, than the leader in first place.
[00:12:14.10 - 00:12:16.23] Another thing is the culture needs to push back.
[00:12:16.23 - 00:12:22.05] I remember working with a large bank in which all the C...
[00:12:22.05 - 00:12:27.23] basically leaders of let's say technology, digital marketing and so on and so forth
[00:12:27.23 - 00:12:34.19] operations, human resources were basically trying to improve certain things but
[00:12:34.19 - 00:12:38.23] afraid of basically pushing back to the leader, right?
[00:12:38.23 - 00:12:44.23] And I helped them say, well, why don't you go together not to revolt but if you
[00:12:44.23 - 00:12:49.15] present and build your case together versus one by one, it's gonna be
[00:12:49.15 - 00:12:56.01] much difficult for the CEO to fire all at once versus seeing that there's a united
[00:12:56.01 - 00:12:56.20] front.
[00:12:56.20 - 00:13:02.02] So in that case the culture of that team helped change the leader.
[00:13:02.22 - 00:13:05.20] So it's a two-way street that's how we will seal it.
[00:13:05.20 - 00:13:09.03] It's not one or the other we need to work on both ends.
[00:13:09.03 - 00:13:12.16] Yeah, that must have been a big shock for that leader, but hopefully it was all for
[00:13:12.16 - 00:13:13.19] the better.
[00:13:15.02 - 00:13:17.19] So Gustavo, a quick digression.
[00:13:17.19 - 00:13:22.12] I wanted to focus on you so we can get to know you a little bit better.
[00:13:22.12 - 00:13:28.05] So we talked in the pre-show about two lies and one, two truths and one lie in no
[00:13:28.05 - 00:13:28.20] particular order.
[00:13:28.20 - 00:13:30.07] And I know you've thought about these.
[00:13:30.07 - 00:13:35.06] So what is two truths and one lie in no particular order about Gustavo?
[00:13:35.14 - 00:13:39.05] Yeah, and thank you for giving me a heads up so I could prepare not much, but at
[00:13:39.05 - 00:13:42.23] least to have... A first fact.
[00:13:43.01 - 00:13:47.00] I'm number six out of seven siblings.
[00:13:48.15 - 00:13:54.20] Second, I cooked, I interned at a professional kitchen in a professional
[00:13:54.20 - 00:13:57.18] restaurant with a very renowned chef.
[00:13:57.21 - 00:14:03.20] And third, I got lost in the Patagonia and had to spend one night in the middle of
[00:14:03.20 - 00:14:09.01] nowhere when it was snowing without any food, water, whatever, and survived.
[00:14:09.03 - 00:14:14.08] So, before, in the pre-show you told me you're from Argentina originally.
[00:14:14.15 - 00:14:18.08] So, I would guess that is true.
[00:14:18.13 - 00:14:26.21] And I would also guess that you got lost in Patagonia with like nothing to eat for
[00:14:26.21 - 00:14:27.19] a night.
[00:14:27.19 - 00:14:32.14] I'm sure that was very scary, but it sounds true.
[00:14:32.14 - 00:14:34.20] And I would also guess that
[00:14:34.20 - 00:14:36.00] your second point...
[00:14:36.00 - 00:14:38.12] that I cook in a professional kitchen.
[00:14:38.18 - 00:14:45.06] you also said you like to cook, so I think the first one is the lie.
[00:14:45.21 - 00:14:47.10] Yeah, you're right.
[00:14:47.21 - 00:14:51.16] But people don't get it because one thing is liking to cook and another thing is to
[00:14:51.16 - 00:14:54.01] cook in a professional setting.
[00:14:54.01 - 00:14:58.12] But actually we are seven siblings and I'm number five, not six.
[00:14:58.12 - 00:14:59.14] So it's not...
[00:14:59.14 - 00:15:00.16] So very close.
[00:15:02.05 - 00:15:04.15] All right, what's your favorite dish by the way?
[00:15:06.13 - 00:15:10.22] I have so many that I don't know where to get started but duck à l'orange comes to
[00:15:10.22 - 00:15:13.11] mind that's one of my favorite dishes.
[00:15:13.11 - 00:15:17.03] Have you thought about what's the commonality between culture and cooking?
[00:15:17.03 - 00:15:18.00] I do.
[00:15:18.00 - 00:15:22.19] And I always like to joke with my clients that when they say, well, we don't know
[00:15:22.19 - 00:15:24.23] how we're going to take our culture to the next level.
[00:15:24.23 - 00:15:28.21] So I tell them, give me the ingredients you have, and I'm going to help you out
[00:15:28.21 - 00:15:32.22] the same way that sometimes I get invited to a friend's house and say, well, tell me
[00:15:32.22 - 00:15:36.03] what you have in the kitchen, in the, in the fridge, wherever.
[00:15:36.03 - 00:15:38.09] And I'm going to create some recipe with that.
[00:15:38.09 - 00:15:38.14] No.
[00:15:38.14 - 00:15:43.16] So I think that's important thing about culture, which is a, instead of trying to
[00:15:43.16 - 00:15:45.04] expect and say,
[00:15:45.04 - 00:15:49.20] companies should be X, Y, and Z and impose morals, I'm more into understanding
[00:15:49.20 - 00:15:55.05] each company requires its own recipe and I try to understand where the assets, their
[00:15:55.05 - 00:15:59.20] ingredients and help them cook some interesting dish that's authentic,
[00:15:59.20 - 00:16:04.03] hopefully fulfilling and positive for that particular company.
[00:16:04.03 - 00:16:09.04] Alright and I imagine unlike a fridge which can be really low sometimes, a
[00:16:09.04 - 00:16:13.22] company always has ingredients that you can use to remix into something that's
[00:16:13.22 - 00:16:15.02] tasteful, right?
[00:16:15.02 - 00:16:16.00] Absolutely.
[00:16:16.00 - 00:16:20.04] I haven't found yet an organization that doesn't have anything that you can build
[00:16:20.04 - 00:16:21.04] from.
[00:16:21.04 - 00:16:24.21] And one of the issues that companies get stuck when they try to improve their
[00:16:24.21 - 00:16:28.23] culture, they talk about change, like everything's wrong, we need to change, but
[00:16:28.23 - 00:16:30.19] nothing's completely wrong.
[00:16:30.19 - 00:16:34.18] Our role is to identify what are the things that we want to keep, that we want
[00:16:34.18 - 00:16:36.04] to build off.
[00:16:36.05 - 00:16:39.12] And then also what are the things that we need to get rid of and what are the things
[00:16:39.12 - 00:16:40.08] that we need to improve.
[00:16:40.08 - 00:16:45.13] But not only focusing on the fixing the problem without identifying what's working
[00:16:45.13 - 00:16:46.10] first.
[00:16:46.10 - 00:16:50.20] So I want to start with some specific questions.
[00:16:50.20 - 00:16:55.04] One of them relates to your book, which for those watching us, it's right on your
[00:16:55.04 - 00:16:57.19] background, Remote Not Distant.
[00:16:57.19 - 00:17:02.10] So what, firstly, what led you to start working on remote teams?
[00:17:02.10 - 00:17:08.02] Is your team remote or was there something else that got you to work on remote teams?
[00:17:08.03 - 00:17:13.22] No, remote for me it's another layer, remote or hybrid.
[00:17:14.01 - 00:17:20.01] And basically my book is a roadmap for designing culture through a lens of a
[00:17:20.01 - 00:17:22.23] hybrid reality, which is the new reality.
[00:17:23.02 - 00:17:29.10] And basically what the pandemic and the aftermath of it brought to the equation is
[00:17:29.10 - 00:17:34.12] that we've been talking about autonomy and flexibility as critical pillars of any
[00:17:34.12 - 00:17:36.14] thriving culture.
[00:17:36.14 - 00:17:41.04] And this basically has helped us prove our hypothesis, right?
[00:17:41.04 - 00:17:45.00] When people talk about working remotely, you need to be more intentional about
[00:17:45.00 - 00:17:46.01] culture.
[00:17:46.01 - 00:17:48.03] In the past, you assume lots of things.
[00:17:48.03 - 00:17:52.06] Now you need to design those more intentionally so people can collaborate.
[00:17:52.21 - 00:17:59.11] Second, giving people freedom to decide when, how, and where they want to work
[00:17:59.11 - 00:18:00.00] from.
[00:18:00.00 - 00:18:04.10] So basically the different aspects and showing that you don't need an office to
[00:18:04.10 - 00:18:05.17] build culture.
[00:18:05.17 - 00:18:11.02] It helps, it's just another ingredient of your, let's say, toolkit or ingredients of
[00:18:11.02 - 00:18:13.15] your fridge, if you may.
[00:18:13.15 - 00:18:16.19] However, there are many companies that don't have an office and really
[00:18:16.19 - 00:18:17.13] successful.
[00:18:17.13 - 00:18:21.19] There are companies that have always worked in an office and they have not so
[00:18:21.19 - 00:18:26.13] good cultures and there are companies that mix both scenarios and they can have a
[00:18:26.13 - 00:18:27.04] good office.
[00:18:27.04 - 00:18:29.23] So it's not where and how you do it.
[00:18:29.23 - 00:18:34.21] It's basically the culture you want to build and make sure you can achieve it.
[00:18:34.22 - 00:18:39.22] So what would you say to companies that after COVID insist everyone has to come
[00:18:39.22 - 00:18:41.08] back to the office?
[00:18:42.05 - 00:18:43.11] What's your experience?
[00:18:43.11 - 00:18:45.21] That they are in deep trouble for two reasons.
[00:18:45.21 - 00:18:54.03] First of all, there's a recent study that was released last week that shows that
[00:18:54.03 - 00:18:59.12] most of the companies that are forcing people return to office are companies that
[00:18:59.12 - 00:19:03.06] their stocks are basically bad.
[00:19:03.06 - 00:19:08.12] And it shows that instead of trying to understand why their stock are basically
[00:19:08.12 - 00:19:12.19] not in good shape, they're using these to blame people, right?
[00:19:12.19 - 00:19:16.17] So that's a very interesting kind of stuff.
[00:19:16.17 - 00:19:22.13] And second is when companies are trying to impose something like everything in life,
[00:19:22.13 - 00:19:23.15] it's going to backfire.
[00:19:23.15 - 00:19:27.05] People don't want to be pushed to a certain element.
[00:19:27.18 - 00:19:34.06] When the pandemic hit, organizations had to basically adapt to remote work and
[00:19:34.06 - 00:19:38.19] people were able not only to keep business floating, but actually they took it to the
[00:19:38.19 - 00:19:39.23] next level.
[00:19:39.23 - 00:19:41.00] So why?
[00:19:41.00 - 00:19:45.21] If that was in the middle of a pandemic, without the technology, without training,
[00:19:45.21 - 00:19:50.01] without experience, companies stay afloat and even more than that.
[00:19:50.01 - 00:19:54.04] Why now that they have the chance to give people freedom, they're going to remove
[00:19:54.04 - 00:19:55.01] that freedom.
[00:19:55.01 - 00:19:58.06] So when I was in a crisis, you helped me now that I can choose.
[00:19:58.06 - 00:20:00.19] I don't want to give you that benefit.
[00:20:00.19 - 00:20:02.08] It's ridiculous.
[00:20:02.13 - 00:20:03.23] Yeah, it's a good point.
[00:20:03.23 - 00:20:08.03] My other company is also a remote company, fully remote.
[00:20:08.06 - 00:20:13.07] And I was explaining to when people ask, I was explaining, you know, we develop a set
[00:20:13.07 - 00:20:20.07] of rituals that replace the need for people to be next to each other and
[00:20:20.07 - 00:20:23.11] communicate in the way that they would do when they are in a physically safe
[00:20:23.11 - 00:20:24.04] environment.
[00:20:24.06 - 00:20:33.13] Can you talk to us about some of the rituals remote teams can use that support
[00:20:33.13 - 00:20:35.21] their collaboration as if they were in the same office?
[00:20:36.07 - 00:20:37.09] Yeah, definitely.
[00:20:37.09 - 00:20:42.01] For me, it's going back to the being intentional element.
[00:20:42.01 - 00:20:49.00] So I remember when I worked in an office in larger companies, you might chit chat
[00:20:49.00 - 00:20:52.04] with someone, but that doesn't mean that you had a culture with people.
[00:20:52.04 - 00:20:54.04] You just happened to be there.
[00:20:54.06 - 00:21:01.09] And interruptions, which are an issue, were also much more prevalent in a
[00:21:01.09 - 00:21:02.20] physical space.
[00:21:02.20 - 00:21:04.12] So talking about rituals.
[00:21:04.12 - 00:21:06.07] It all depends what you try to achieve.
[00:21:06.07 - 00:21:11.03] One thing that we use with teams, which is really effective, it's called the washing
[00:21:11.03 - 00:21:12.10] instructions.
[00:21:12.15 - 00:21:16.17] So one of the things that's missing is that if we don't know our colleagues and
[00:21:16.17 - 00:21:21.22] how they work, how can we basically improve those relationships?
[00:21:22.00 - 00:21:25.10] And the washing instruction is the same way that your clothes come with a label
[00:21:25.10 - 00:21:29.04] that tells, Hey, don't iron it, don't bleach, whatever.
[00:21:29.04 - 00:21:30.00] So you take care.
[00:21:30.00 - 00:21:33.10] We need to understand how people want to be taken care of.
[00:21:33.10 - 00:21:38.00] Some people are early risers, some people like to work later at night, some people
[00:21:38.00 - 00:21:42.05] have family responsibilities that they need to take care of, some people like
[00:21:42.05 - 00:21:47.00] impromptu meetings to brainstorm, some people like more structure cadence, some
[00:21:47.00 - 00:21:51.12] people like to work asynchronously and maybe use Slack or email, while other
[00:21:51.12 - 00:21:52.17] people have in person meetings.
[00:21:52.17 - 00:21:54.11] So there are a lot of preferences.
[00:21:54.11 - 00:21:57.23] Some people like to make decisions on their own, others like to bring everyone
[00:21:57.23 - 00:21:59.03] together to get their thoughts.
[00:21:59.03 - 00:22:01.06] So there are many ways of working.
[00:22:01.11 - 00:22:04.21] So by doing that, each team member shares their preferences.
[00:22:04.21 - 00:22:07.02] So why are they washing instructions?
[00:22:07.02 - 00:22:10.04] That's the first part to get to know each other.
[00:22:10.04 - 00:22:15.12] However, teams need to find some common ground because if you work in one way, I
[00:22:15.12 - 00:22:19.11] want to work in another way, we're not going to basically be successful.
[00:22:19.15 - 00:22:24.12] So then we codify the team washing instructions, which is finding common
[00:22:24.12 - 00:22:28.12] ground between our personal preferences and what's good for the team.
[00:22:28.12 - 00:22:30.12] That's a powerful ritual.
[00:22:30.12 - 00:22:32.07] It helps understand each other.
[00:22:32.07 - 00:22:36.12] It helps bring people together, but then it improves collaboration because we
[00:22:36.12 - 00:22:40.04] understand like, what's the meeting that we're going to locate for collaboration
[00:22:40.04 - 00:22:40.12] time?
[00:22:40.12 - 00:22:43.16] What are the best channels that we're going to use for one or another thing?
[00:22:43.16 - 00:22:47.16] How are we going to make decisions as a team and so on and so forth.
[00:22:48.00 - 00:22:53.19] When you go into a company or into a client, what's usually one thing that you
[00:22:53.19 - 00:22:56.16] say, yeah, I've seen that before, I know how to fix that?
[00:22:56.16 - 00:23:00.21] What's one of the low hanging fruit for improving culture?
[00:23:00.21 - 00:23:05.17] I think that I try not to express it in that way, if you know what I mean, like
[00:23:05.17 - 00:23:11.23] we have a tendency of connect what we see to our personal experience.
[00:23:11.23 - 00:23:15.23] And sometimes we might be rushing, you know, you mentioned earlier in our
[00:23:15.23 - 00:23:20.14] previous informal conversation that you do an assessment, you have a tool to assess
[00:23:20.14 - 00:23:21.10] cultures.
[00:23:21.10 - 00:23:25.12] And the worst thing that we can do is assess the culture and say, this is the
[00:23:25.12 - 00:23:27.08] culture before we actually get into that.
[00:23:27.08 - 00:23:27.13] No.
[00:23:27.13 - 00:23:28.06] So.
[00:23:29.12 - 00:23:33.11] So I'm going to reframe a little bit the answer in the sense of where the things
[00:23:33.11 - 00:23:35.08] that we observe a lot.
[00:23:35.08 - 00:23:40.14] First, people have a perfectionist mindset when it comes to culture.
[00:23:40.14 - 00:23:42.22] And that basically creates a lot of issues.
[00:23:42.22 - 00:23:46.15] Perfectionism in the sense that they think that there are some companies have perfect
[00:23:46.15 - 00:23:48.20] cultures and they have not.
[00:23:48.20 - 00:23:51.16] And I can tell you have seen no perfect culture.
[00:23:51.16 - 00:23:52.22] Culture is human.
[00:23:52.22 - 00:23:54.06] It's always evolving.
[00:23:54.06 - 00:23:57.17] You make progress here, you screw up there, so it's a...
[00:23:57.17 - 00:24:00.03] It's a living animal.
[00:24:00.03 - 00:24:04.17] So, that perfectionism first makes people feel really ashamed about their own company
[00:24:04.17 - 00:24:07.08] because they know they're, it's like a family.
[00:24:07.08 - 00:24:12.03] You know that that uncle that doesn't behave well in breathing, you have this.
[00:24:12.03 - 00:24:16.21] So for me, the quick win is to acknowledge, Hey guys, you're not perfect.
[00:24:16.21 - 00:24:17.14] Cool down.
[00:24:17.14 - 00:24:18.14] That's okay.
[00:24:18.14 - 00:24:21.05] And then let's start, as I mentioned earlier, what's working.
[00:24:21.05 - 00:24:22.17] What are the good things that you have?
[00:24:22.17 - 00:24:23.10] What are the best?
[00:24:23.10 - 00:24:27.00] So trying to deep dive and make them acknowledge
[00:24:27.00 - 00:24:29.00] the things that they do that really work.
[00:24:29.00 - 00:24:33.00] Maybe not at the company level, maybe to a point there's a team that runs meetings
[00:24:33.00 - 00:24:35.17] really effectively and we can learn from them.
[00:24:35.17 - 00:24:40.01] Maybe there's another team that has a ritual that's really powerful to create
[00:24:40.01 - 00:24:42.23] emotional connection and build psychological safety.
[00:24:42.23 - 00:24:47.14] Well, maybe we can escalate it and maybe scale it across the organization, for
[00:24:47.14 - 00:24:48.10] example.
[00:24:48.11 - 00:24:54.00] So you look for what works and you multiply that within the company.
[00:24:54.00 - 00:24:56.15] That's a quick win, exactly. So things that
[00:24:56.15 - 00:25:01.12] the company have already shown that it's working for that company, well, what if we
[00:25:01.12 - 00:25:04.03] can scale that practice across the board?
[00:25:04.03 - 00:25:06.04] That could be another one way.
[00:25:06.07 - 00:25:07.14] How about meetings?
[00:25:07.14 - 00:25:09.02] How do you help companies have
[00:25:12.11 - 00:25:15.03] is what we do at least half of the time if you're a
[00:25:15.03 - 00:25:16.01] manager in a company?
[00:25:16.01 - 00:25:18.03] Yeah, the meetings, there are two things.
[00:25:18.03 - 00:25:21.06] First, we try to understand what's their meeting culture.
[00:25:21.06 - 00:25:26.14] So every organization has a culture and a meeting culture and one shapes the other,
[00:25:26.14 - 00:25:27.21] if you know what I mean.
[00:25:27.21 - 00:25:33.06] So their organizations, that meetings are for example, driven by power, right?
[00:25:33.06 - 00:25:37.10] It's not about the meeting itself, but it's about someone that has to show power
[00:25:37.10 - 00:25:40.08] and the meeting revolves around that leader.
[00:25:40.08 - 00:25:45.02] The meeting doesn't start until that person arrives, or if it started, it
[00:25:45.02 - 00:25:47.15] restarts when that person shows up.
[00:25:47.15 - 00:25:51.05] It's designed to please a particular stakeholder.
[00:25:51.05 - 00:25:55.05] The people want to be involved because if they're not invited, they feel that
[00:25:55.05 - 00:25:58.13] they're not powerful or not important within the organization.
[00:25:58.13 - 00:26:03.11] For example, then there are other companies that have more tribal informal
[00:26:03.11 - 00:26:07.08] types of meetings, like a...
[00:26:07.08 - 00:26:13.08] IKEA, for example, has something that they have very long meetings, not structured.
[00:26:13.20 - 00:26:18.08] They spend a lot of time talking about each other, about personal things before
[00:26:18.08 - 00:26:19.21] they get into work.
[00:26:19.21 - 00:26:24.18] And interestingly, IKEA has long staircases in most of their offices to
[00:26:24.18 - 00:26:28.13] promote that encounters that are more informal.
[00:26:28.17 - 00:26:32.13] Then you have other companies that are more structured, very disciplined, like
[00:26:32.13 - 00:26:36.04] Netflix, that meetings start and end on time.
[00:26:36.04 - 00:26:38.22] They only invite the people that need to be there.
[00:26:38.22 - 00:26:42.20] They use meeting to discuss but no decisions are made within the meeting.
[00:26:42.20 - 00:26:45.16] So they have a very structured, they always have an agenda.
[00:26:45.16 - 00:26:48.03] Well, so that's the first thing that we're trying to understand.
[00:26:48.03 - 00:26:52.03] What's the meeting culture and within that meeting culture, what are the areas that
[00:26:52.03 - 00:26:52.22] we can improve.
[00:26:54.15 - 00:26:57.05] And how do you make meetings more inclusive?
[00:26:57.22 - 00:27:06.04] What would a meeting look like that gives everyone, makes them feel heard and
[00:27:06.04 - 00:27:10.02] understood, that they feel they're part of the decision, that they walk out with a
[00:27:10.02 - 00:27:13.05] smile, feeling that it was a good outcome?
[00:27:13.07 - 00:27:18.09] I think in order to increase participation first invite the right people, right?
[00:27:18.09 - 00:27:23.01] If you invite 20 people to a meeting, even if you try to facilitate it as wonderful
[00:27:23.01 - 00:27:29.01] as you can, there's only so much time that people can have to spend on that meeting.
[00:27:29.16 - 00:27:34.12] Another thing that's important is have only the people that want to be there.
[00:27:34.12 - 00:27:39.07] So we apply the, and explain this in my book, the rule of two clicks.
[00:27:39.07 - 00:27:42.12] So if you're in a meeting that you're invited and
[00:27:42.12 - 00:27:47.16] you don't think the meetings are adding value to you or you're not adding value to
[00:27:47.16 - 00:27:51.21] the meeting, you can choose to basically go somewhere else.
[00:27:51.21 - 00:27:56.13] And you click twice, first to leave the meeting and second to confirm that you
[00:27:56.13 - 00:27:57.12] want to leave the meeting.
[00:27:57.12 - 00:27:58.19] So you go somewhere else.
[00:27:58.19 - 00:28:04.19] So by doing that, giving people the choice to opt out, then the people who are in the
[00:28:04.19 - 00:28:06.03] meeting really want to be there.
[00:28:06.03 - 00:28:10.06] So they're not a distraction that helps increase participation and then
[00:28:10.06 - 00:28:11.11] facilitation.
[00:28:11.11 - 00:28:16.00] You don't need to hire a professional facilitator, but companies need to train
[00:28:16.00 - 00:28:19.16] people how to facilitate those conversations, right?
[00:28:19.16 - 00:28:21.02] That are very important.
[00:28:22.03 - 00:28:25.00] Moving to another topic, feedback.
[00:28:25.08 - 00:28:29.11] I know you have a specific framework for giving feedback.
[00:28:29.13 - 00:28:33.13] What are the two or three things that are really important to know when giving
[00:28:33.13 - 00:28:33.23] feedback?
[00:28:35.00 - 00:28:38.17] The most important thing is a good thing about something I wrote this weekend,
[00:28:38.17 - 00:28:45.00] which is unsolicited feedback doesn't work and people keep trying it over and over
[00:28:45.00 - 00:28:48.19] and research shows that people don't want to receive unsolicited feedback.
[00:28:48.19 - 00:28:52.16] Not only they're not going to act on it, but actually it's going to backfire.
[00:28:52.16 - 00:28:53.21] They're going to get pissed off.
[00:28:53.21 - 00:28:55.00] They're going to shut down.
[00:28:55.00 - 00:28:56.22] So that's not going to work.
[00:28:57.00 - 00:29:02.01] One of the most important shifts in terms of feedback is creating a culture in which
[00:29:02.01 - 00:29:04.13] people request,
[00:29:04.13 - 00:29:07.13] proactively requests feedback.
[00:29:07.14 - 00:29:12.23] For example, Patagonia, they train managers to start requesting feedback from
[00:29:12.23 - 00:29:17.13] other team members and not just, hey, give me feedback, but being very intentional
[00:29:17.13 - 00:29:19.21] when and how to ask feedback.
[00:29:19.21 - 00:29:22.16] When they do that, three things happens.
[00:29:22.16 - 00:29:27.01] First, people see, hey, my leader cares about improving and learning because
[00:29:27.01 - 00:29:28.20] they're requesting feedback.
[00:29:28.21 - 00:29:30.03] Second,
[00:29:30.06 - 00:29:34.16] leaders are sending the right signal saying, hey, feedback matters in this
[00:29:34.16 - 00:29:34.23] company.
[00:29:34.23 - 00:29:37.01] That's why we are asking for it.
[00:29:37.01 - 00:29:41.21] And third, the people start following through and say, hey, look, my leader is
[00:29:41.21 - 00:29:42.18] asking for feedback.
[00:29:42.18 - 00:29:43.16] They're taking it.
[00:29:43.16 - 00:29:45.05] Well, I'm going to do exactly the same.
[00:29:45.05 - 00:29:48.18] So it cascades and create a culture of feedback.
[00:29:48.18 - 00:29:54.01] And the third tip is to focus feedback more on the system.
[00:29:54.01 - 00:29:59.21] So we train teams to tackle feedback collectively rather than
[00:29:59.21 - 00:30:04.21] Andreas giving feedback to Gustavo and Gustavo to Andreas and so on and so forth
[00:30:04.21 - 00:30:07.06] is how can we improve as a team?
[00:30:07.06 - 00:30:12.11] So focusing on the norms and rules, the system, the more collective practices that
[00:30:12.11 - 00:30:16.23] are going to help us improve together versus focusing on individual performance.
[00:30:16.23 - 00:30:24.03] When you improve the culture, individual performance improves all at the same time.
[00:30:24.03 - 00:30:24.18] You know what I mean?
[00:30:25.00 - 00:30:33.16] Where do you stand on treating top performers differently or focusing on
[00:30:34.00 - 00:30:37.22] people who are the best in the organization versus focusing on everyone
[00:30:37.22 - 00:30:39.08] and helping them be a little better?
[00:30:39.21 - 00:30:44.19] I think that we need to work on a high performing culture, not in high performing
[00:30:44.19 - 00:30:45.19] people.
[00:30:46.06 - 00:30:48.13] And when we do that, two things happen.
[00:30:48.13 - 00:30:53.22] First, high performers, we have people that are exceptional in different areas,
[00:30:53.22 - 00:30:56.00] in sport, in profession, whatever.
[00:30:56.00 - 00:30:57.11] And we want those.
[00:30:57.11 - 00:31:02.05] However, many times those comes at a very expensive price for the organization.
[00:31:02.05 - 00:31:06.16] So the price could be, they come with toxic behaviors and people look to
[00:31:06.16 - 00:31:10.19] the other side because that person brings a lot of clients, they sale a lot so
[00:31:10.19 - 00:31:15.10] well but they're maybe taking shortcuts maybe they are, I don't know, bribing people
[00:31:15.10 - 00:31:19.23] because we've seen this or whatever or they are being egotistical or selfish or
[00:31:19.23 - 00:31:24.14] creating things or they're assholes in nature and they're harming the culture so
[00:31:24.14 - 00:31:26.15] what's the price you're willing to pay?
[00:31:26.15 - 00:31:31.17] Second I've seen many people so-called high-performers that are busy collecting
[00:31:31.17 - 00:31:35.17] the credit for the work of many people that happen to do it
[00:31:35.17 - 00:31:39.15] but they're the ones who present, they're the ones who stay in front of the crowd,
[00:31:39.15 - 00:31:42.11] but they're not the only ones who did the work.
[00:31:42.11 - 00:31:47.05] And third, it's safer and more effective, more than safer, more effective to have a
[00:31:47.05 - 00:31:52.08] high performing team culture because you want everyone to raise up versus having
[00:31:52.08 - 00:31:54.13] one people that are giving their best here.
[00:31:54.13 - 00:31:56.18] And then the rest of the team is not there.
[00:31:56.18 - 00:31:59.20] And the more you create a gap between these guys and the other,
[00:31:59.20 - 00:32:02.06] these guys are going to under deliver.
[00:32:02.14 - 00:32:05.04] It's like I mentioned that I grew in a...
[00:32:05.04 - 00:32:10.12] in a large family and if your parents are saying, look at that guy, your brother is
[00:32:10.12 - 00:32:14.12] better than you are, well, you keep saying that, you're not gonna motivate the other
[00:32:14.12 - 00:32:20.04] people to step up, you're gonna demotivate them and they go, okay, take care of the
[00:32:20.04 - 00:32:21.04] high performers.
[00:32:21.04 - 00:32:24.21] And what are the ingredients of a culture?
[00:32:24.21 - 00:32:28.05] So I know you have your Culture Design Canvas.
[00:32:28.08 - 00:32:35.09] What are the key elements someone needs to consider when creating an intentional
[00:32:35.09 - 00:32:36.00] culture?
[00:32:36.00 - 00:32:41.01] For me, it's like the way the tool was born and I think it's important, like how it
[00:32:41.01 - 00:32:45.00] started, because you like the history and you mentioned the question, the how...
[00:32:45.00 - 00:32:51.08] it's that many people still think that culture is about having a purpose or having a set
[00:32:51.08 - 00:32:52.06] of core values.
[00:32:52.06 - 00:32:53.13] And that's about it.
[00:32:53.13 - 00:32:57.09] And in my experience, culture is something more comprehensive.
[00:32:57.09 - 00:33:01.20] And that's why we, I came up with this model, the Culture Design Canvas.
[00:33:01.20 - 00:33:02.11] And.
[00:33:02.15 - 00:33:05.10] As through an evolution, I've been testing the different elements.
[00:33:05.10 - 00:33:12.04] Now it has 10 building blocks, 10 areas, but they are basically three main areas
[00:33:12.04 - 00:33:14.03] that those elements capture.
[00:33:14.03 - 00:33:17.09] And that's what I call the ABCs of culture.
[00:33:17.09 - 00:33:23.00] The A stands for alignment, B belonging and C collaboration.
[00:33:23.05 - 00:33:29.20] Alignment is purpose, values, priorities and behaviors that we reward and behaviors
[00:33:29.20 - 00:33:31.04] that we punish.
[00:33:31.07 - 00:33:36.00] The B, Belonging, it's psychological safety, feedback and rituals, which you
[00:33:36.00 - 00:33:37.01] mentioned.
[00:33:37.01 - 00:33:40.19] And the C, Collaboration, it's how do we make decisions?
[00:33:40.20 - 00:33:45.03] How do we manage our meetings and our collaboration asynchronously and
[00:33:45.03 - 00:33:46.00] synchronously?
[00:33:46.00 - 00:33:49.09] And what are the norms and rules that guide our behavior?
[00:33:49.09 - 00:33:54.23] Do you think any company size needs to be thinking about culture or is it for like
[00:33:54.23 - 00:33:58.11] 50 people or maybe 500 people and up?
[00:33:58.11 - 00:34:04.01] I think everyone should be thinking about culture and especially if you're a startup
[00:34:04.01 - 00:34:08.18] and you're going to be growing in the next few years, you need to design your culture
[00:34:08.18 - 00:34:09.23] way ahead.
[00:34:09.23 - 00:34:14.07] Not when you grow up, but you need to design the culture before you grow up.
[00:34:14.07 - 00:34:19.05] So you let the culture and business take you in the right direction.
[00:34:19.05 - 00:34:21.17] Airbnb is a perfect example of that.
[00:34:21.17 - 00:34:27.08] They had a very clearly defined culture since they started and then they evolved it.
[00:34:27.08 - 00:34:27.17] But...
[00:34:27.17 - 00:34:31.00] They were very clear about the type of culture they want to build and that has
[00:34:31.00 - 00:34:33.05] helped Airbnb succeed.
[00:34:34.05 - 00:34:38.18] I mentioned I do a lot of training and consulting and I have people that are
[00:34:38.18 - 00:34:43.01] small teams, five, 10 teams, and they have benefit of using the Culture Design Canvas
[00:34:43.01 - 00:34:45.17] to map and evolve their culture.
[00:34:45.17 - 00:34:51.03] So you don't need to be a 5,000 or 50,000 employee organization to think about
[00:34:51.03 - 00:34:52.01] culture.
[00:34:52.15 - 00:34:55.21] Do you have any questions for me or is there a question I forgot to ask?
[00:34:55.21 - 00:34:58.14] Because I know you write a lot, you read a lot.
[00:34:59.03 - 00:35:03.10] No, I would like to hear, I mean, I always say when I join a podcast that I think
[00:35:03.10 - 00:35:06.00] it's important to hear both point of views.
[00:35:06.00 - 00:35:09.04] So I would like to hear some of your perspectives on the things I've been
[00:35:09.04 - 00:35:13.22] saying, what are the things that maybe you agree and why, and if you disagree or if
[00:35:13.22 - 00:35:17.01] you're unclear, how different also to share with the audience so it becomes like
[00:35:17.01 - 00:35:18.19] they can compare notes and...
[00:35:19.15 - 00:35:23.23] No, I think like I was telling you earlier, where we seem to be aligned in
[00:35:23.23 - 00:35:25.22] how we think about culture.
[00:35:27.05 - 00:35:30.18] I started this podcast because I was...
[00:35:32.16 - 00:35:39.02] disinfatuated or maybe frustrated by the fact that the leaders who were getting the
[00:35:39.02 - 00:35:44.01] attention were the leaders that were prioritizing their own benefit, you know,
[00:35:44.01 - 00:35:47.18] how much money am I going to raise for my startup and how much money am I going to
[00:35:47.18 - 00:35:52.22] make by selling my business or look at this cool technology I've produced and
[00:35:52.22 - 00:35:55.04] these are the leaders that often get praised.
[00:35:55.04 - 00:35:59.15] But we don't have the servant leaders often get praised and this was my calling
[00:35:59.15 - 00:36:01.21] I felt I had to do something about.
[00:36:02.01 - 00:36:06.16] And, you know, like, who's out there?
[00:36:07.04 - 00:36:12.06] Like, Netflix has a book about culture and we know about Southwest Airlines culture.
[00:36:12.06 - 00:36:19.11] And maybe there's like very few examples that unless you start digging into
[00:36:19.11 - 00:36:23.14] workplace culture, you won't find any of these leaders.
[00:36:23.23 - 00:36:28.12] And they don't talk about themselves because they're not the ones that want to
[00:36:28.12 - 00:36:29.14] steal the limelight.
[00:36:29.14 - 00:36:34.19] They're the ones that are happier behind the scenes helping people, you know, be
[00:36:34.19 - 00:36:38.03] more of themselves and have a more fulfilling life and have a more
[00:36:38.03 - 00:36:40.10] fulfilling, especially work life.
[00:36:40.16 - 00:36:45.12] And the other thing that I've realized from discussions with a lot of leaders
[00:36:45.12 - 00:36:49.13] like yourself, you know, people who create intentional cultures or help others create
[00:36:49.13 - 00:36:56.03] intentional cultures, is that the benefit is far more wide ranging than the
[00:36:56.03 - 00:36:57.18] immediate workplace environment.
[00:36:57.18 - 00:37:02.16] Because when someone's in a place that they love to work,
[00:37:02.16 - 00:37:04.17] their family will recognize it.
[00:37:04.17 - 00:37:08.10] Their family will see the positive effects in that person.
[00:37:08.10 - 00:37:13.08] And so as a leader, you are a multiplier, you have such a positive effect of making
[00:37:13.08 - 00:37:14.20] people's lives...
[00:37:17.14 - 00:37:22.20] more fullfilling and their family as well and their community as well.
[00:37:22.20 - 00:37:28.19] So I think I was actually... I'll do a quick digression.
[00:37:28.19 - 00:37:30.14] I was in a, in a,
[00:37:30.14 - 00:37:38.09] concert of Coldplay yesterday, you know, this one of the most streamed bands on
[00:37:38.09 - 00:37:47.00] Spotify and what was very interesting about Coldplay was the lead singer was in
[00:37:47.00 - 00:37:49.01] a sense a role model,
[00:37:49.02 - 00:37:53.11] a societal role model because he was explaining how we need to be more
[00:37:53.11 - 00:37:59.06] considerate about the environment, the group is financing a lot of environmental
[00:37:59.06 - 00:38:05.23] actions, reforesting and picking up garbage from the oceans and all sorts of
[00:38:05.23 - 00:38:06.17] things.
[00:38:06.17 - 00:38:12.17] And people like musicians, like Coldplay, they have immense influence in the world,
[00:38:12.17 - 00:38:13.19] as we know.
[00:38:13.19 - 00:38:18.11] It's very rare for them to be role models about, you know,
[00:38:18.23 - 00:38:24.22] helping us understand what we should be more thoughtful about, the same applies to
[00:38:24.22 - 00:38:26.11] corporate leaders.
[00:38:27.00 - 00:38:30.18] And corporate leaders, the larger the company, the more influence they have in
[00:38:30.18 - 00:38:34.22] the world, in their employees, but also their families and their community.
[00:38:34.22 - 00:38:43.09] And so we should have higher standards for their role models and what these leaders
[00:38:43.09 - 00:38:48.06] stand up to and definitely not just about
[00:38:48.07 - 00:38:55.01] themselves and their accomplishments, but the people that work for them.
[00:38:55.22 - 00:38:56.08] Definitely.
[00:38:56.08 - 00:39:03.00] And I like that approach that a organization's impact goes well beyond
[00:39:03.00 - 00:39:03.23] their business.
[00:39:03.23 - 00:39:09.03] No, like Coldplay doesn't just influence people music preferences and fun, but it
[00:39:09.03 - 00:39:12.09] can actually drive positive societal change.
[00:39:12.09 - 00:39:17.13] So to your point, true leaders are those who really not only want to model the
[00:39:17.13 - 00:39:22.10] right things to help the company, but also to help society because they know how big
[00:39:22.10 - 00:39:24.11] they know their employees families.
[00:39:24.11 - 00:39:25.05] I love that.
[00:39:25.05 - 00:39:27.02] You just mentioned that's a great point.
[00:39:27.02 - 00:39:27.21] Yeah, yeah.
[00:39:27.21 - 00:39:35.02] And we often forget that and it goes along with seeing people only as part of their
[00:39:35.02 - 00:39:39.04] work outfit and not as part of their full self.
[00:39:39.05 - 00:39:42.10] You know, people don't talk about what's happening in their life, they don't share
[00:39:42.10 - 00:39:46.16] emotions, they don't share that there might be something in their life which is
[00:39:46.16 - 00:39:48.20] actually making their work life very difficult.
[00:39:48.20 - 00:39:53.00] They're trying to hide all that because of fear.
[00:39:53.14 - 00:39:56.11] Going back to your, you know, the name of your...
[00:39:56.11 - 00:39:57.18] consultancy.
[00:39:58.21 - 00:40:07.16] So there's a lot of educating we need to do and there's a lot of as a result
[00:40:07.16 - 00:40:13.08] there's a lot of positive impact we can do if we can just touch a few leaders who
[00:40:13.08 - 00:40:14.19] touch many or even tens of thousands of people and can make their life better.
[00:40:14.19 - 00:40:18.06] touch many or even tens of thousands of people and can make their life better.
[00:40:18.06 - 00:40:21.20] For me that's a calling beyond any...
[00:40:22.08 - 00:40:27.16] any other in my life because of the ability to, you know, if I can help a few
[00:40:27.16 - 00:40:34.05] leaders or a few hundreds of leaders and businesses create more intentional
[00:40:34.05 - 00:40:38.11] cultures, create businesses like Seth Godin says that...
[00:40:40.14 - 00:40:42.08] then how much better
[00:40:42.08 - 00:40:49.04] would this world be if people had a more fulfilling half of their life, half of
[00:40:49.04 - 00:40:50.00] their waking life.
[00:40:50.00 - 00:40:50.18] Absolutely.
[00:40:50.18 - 00:40:55.18] And I'm, when people say I want to change the world, I don't want to change the
[00:40:55.18 - 00:40:56.04] world.
[00:40:56.04 - 00:41:01.02] I would like to, but I like to influence the people that I work with so they can
[00:41:01.02 - 00:41:03.10] influence the people that they work with and so on and so forth.
[00:41:03.10 - 00:41:07.13] So I think it's more of a chain reaction, so to speak.
[00:41:08.15 - 00:41:09.23] Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:10.00 - 00:41:11.20] That's Rethink Culture for me.
[00:41:14.16 - 00:41:17.13] So, so going back to rethinking what...
[00:41:17.13 - 00:41:21.17] When you see someone, when you see a leader, client or non-client,
[00:41:21.17 - 00:41:25.04] What's one thing you really want to whisper to their ear that would help them
[00:41:25.04 - 00:41:27.18] be more intentional about the culture they're building?
[00:41:27.18 - 00:41:33.02] For me the most important thing is they need to let go of the baby, right, so don't
[00:41:33.02 - 00:41:38.03] attach to ego to that baby the same way that parents know like I always say that
[00:41:38.03 - 00:41:44.04] people say look in Facebook yesterday someone was telling my kid is they don't
[00:41:44.04 - 00:41:47.05] say my kid graduated from high school.
[00:41:47.05 - 00:41:50.11] They say we are high school graduates.
[00:41:50.11 - 00:41:56.03] No, no, you're not, your kid, you know what I mean, so parents today are trying to get
[00:41:56.03 - 00:42:00.23] a credit or take credit for their contribution to whatever the kids and yeah
[00:42:00.23 - 00:42:04.19] they help them, they raise them, blah blah, but I think that leaders need to
[00:42:04.19 - 00:42:09.07] stop talking about what they do and acknowledge what people do because of what
[00:42:09.07 - 00:42:10.02] they did.
[00:42:10.02 - 00:42:14.21] So instead of saying we win this, acknowledge the other because when you do
[00:42:14.21 - 00:42:19.11] that you're gonna let your kids grow in the right direction versus feel like this
[00:42:19.11 - 00:42:21.11] is all about because of my parents.
[00:42:22.06 - 00:42:25.03] And that act of letting go is not just...
[00:42:25.03 - 00:42:30.17] a metaphor or nice wording, but actually you don't own your company.
[00:42:30.17 - 00:42:36.01] I was working with a high growth startup that VC complained all the time about
[00:42:36.01 - 00:42:37.13] people are not taking ownership.
[00:42:37.13 - 00:42:39.22] People are not making decisions, blah, blah, blah.
[00:42:39.22 - 00:42:43.05] But then he was always referring to the company as his baby.
[00:42:43.05 - 00:42:44.21] He was saying, this is my baby.
[00:42:44.21 - 00:42:47.09] No one is as invested as I am.
[00:42:47.09 - 00:42:49.04] No one knows all the risk I'm taking.
[00:42:49.04 - 00:42:52.21] If I screw up that... so well, if you don't let go of that, how do you want people to
[00:42:52.21 - 00:42:53.15] own something?
[00:42:53.15 - 00:42:53.21] Right?
[00:42:53.21 - 00:42:56.19] You need to give it away so they can own it.
[00:42:57.12 - 00:42:58.09] Yeah.
[00:42:58.09 - 00:43:01.09] You're laughing because it probably reminds you of someone else actually.
[00:43:01.09 - 00:43:03.01] No, but it's totally true.
[00:43:03.01 - 00:43:08.16] Start by sharing, you know, sharing a bit of what you're eating.
[00:43:08.16 - 00:43:10.16] It's not your identity.
[00:43:10.17 - 00:43:13.07] Everyone is invested in it.
[00:43:13.15 - 00:43:14.17] Yeah.
[00:43:14.17 - 00:43:18.07] And ownership, people need to own something, they cannot own something that
[00:43:18.07 - 00:43:20.00] you don't let go of.
[00:43:20.06 - 00:43:22.12] Totally, totally.
[00:43:22.12 - 00:43:29.21] Gustavo, what is a book you would recommend we read or something that you
[00:43:29.21 - 00:43:31.09] want to point our attention to?
[00:43:31.10 - 00:43:34.21] I would name maybe books that people already read or known.
[00:43:34.21 - 00:43:40.16] So rather than that, I would, if you don't mind, I would slightly change the
[00:43:40.16 - 00:43:41.15] approach.
[00:43:41.15 - 00:43:45.14] Instead of recommending books, I would recommend people to spend more time with
[00:43:45.14 - 00:43:45.22] people.
[00:43:45.22 - 00:43:48.20] So read life, read life.
[00:43:48.20 - 00:43:53.22] Like I think that we forget the power of observation.
[00:43:53.23 - 00:43:57.21] I love research because of, but the most important piece of learning doesn't come
[00:43:57.21 - 00:43:59.13] from book, doesn't come from research.
[00:43:59.13 - 00:44:01.15] It comes from actual experience.
[00:44:01.16 - 00:44:07.05] And sometimes leaders or consultants don't spend as much time
[00:44:07.05 - 00:44:11.03] on the trenches, like with people and not, Hey guys, what do you want?
[00:44:11.03 - 00:44:13.01] But basically get there.
[00:44:13.01 - 00:44:13.22] Like...
[00:44:14.13 - 00:44:17.20] Like for example, how many leaders don't actually go to their factories and
[00:44:17.20 - 00:44:22.19] manufacturing places to not just to see and talk to the manufacturing plant
[00:44:23.15 - 00:44:28.11] leader, but basically to see how people are working, observe them, go and eat the
[00:44:28.11 - 00:44:31.12] food they eat to see exactly because that's part of your culture.
[00:44:31.12 - 00:44:34.07] Do they have time to actually eat and pause?
[00:44:34.07 - 00:44:36.22] What are the safety measurements in place?
[00:44:36.22 - 00:44:40.21] That kind of stuff so get immersed with people because you're gonna learn a lot
[00:44:40.21 - 00:44:46.14] from that for sure and of course continue reading and... But that would be my my two
[00:44:46.14 - 00:44:47.05] cents
[00:44:47.05 - 00:44:53.03] That is very human and that's very real and it reminds me that we shouldn't be
[00:44:53.03 - 00:44:56.05] listening to... until the other person stop...
[00:44:59.10 - 00:45:02.22] to connect and understand the humanity in the
[00:45:02.22 - 00:45:04.13] other person.
[00:45:05.15 - 00:45:11.03] Gustavo, thank you so much for spending that time with us and being gracious with
[00:45:11.03 - 00:45:12.08] your time.
[00:45:12.10 - 00:45:17.19] And same thing for everyone who's been watching us on YouTube or listening to us
[00:45:17.19 - 00:45:19.10] all this time.
[00:45:20.14 - 00:45:22.12] You can...
[00:45:22.12 - 00:45:27.00] tell your friends about this episode if you want to help us you can leave a comment on
[00:45:27.00 - 00:45:31.16] your favorite podcast application, you can email me directly with any comments at
[00:45:31.16 - 00:45:38.18] andreas{rethinkculture.co, if you just listened but didn't watch we do have a
[00:45:38.18 - 00:45:49.03] YouTube channel so you can see us in flesh and blood on YouTube and I sincerely wish
[00:45:49.03 - 00:45:50.08] that
[00:45:50.18 - 00:45:56.03] everyone listening can help in their own small ways create a happier, healthier
[00:45:56.15 - 00:45:59.15] workplace for you and for those around you.
[00:45:59.16 - 00:46:02.14] So thank you Andreas for hosting me and thank you everyone for joining.
[00:46:02.14 - 00:46:06.02] For those who are watching the recording, we are here with you.