WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.250 --> 00:00:00.970 Michele: Hey, Colleen. 00:00:01.468 --> 00:00:02.338 Colleen: Hey, Michelle. 00:00:02.838 --> 00:00:07.608 Michele: It has been recently brought to my attention that last week was our 100th 00:00:07.608 --> 00:00:10.848 episode and we forgot to talk about that. 00:00:11.348 --> 00:00:12.038 Colleen: Yes. 00:00:12.068 --> 00:00:12.638 Yes. 00:00:12.668 --> 00:00:17.838 I realized that on Tuesday, the day, the episode aired people were like, 00:00:17.868 --> 00:00:19.128 oh, it's your hundredth episode? 00:00:19.128 --> 00:00:20.268 Are you doing something special? 00:00:20.268 --> 00:00:22.818 I was like, no, no, we're not. 00:00:24.108 --> 00:00:26.718 Michele: I feel like it was the kind of reaction you get from people after they've 00:00:26.718 --> 00:00:29.685 been married for like five years or so. 00:00:29.685 --> 00:00:31.725 Like after that point, you're kind of like, oh great. 00:00:31.725 --> 00:00:34.565 We just had our seventh anniversary, like, cool. 00:00:34.935 --> 00:00:36.105 Do you want to fold laundry together? 00:00:36.135 --> 00:00:42.255 Like man hundred episodes. 00:00:42.860 --> 00:00:44.240 Colleen: That sounds crazy. 00:00:44.450 --> 00:00:45.920 I am. 00:00:46.422 --> 00:00:48.852 I find that hard to believe and it's very cool. 00:00:48.872 --> 00:00:51.962 Michele: It's kind of wild to think about where we've come from. 00:00:52.142 --> 00:00:55.259 And I don't know, I guess it kind of makes me think of where 00:00:55.259 --> 00:00:56.639 we're at, where we're going to. 00:00:56.962 --> 00:01:00.439 I think we realized at a certain point that we have of unintentional 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:05.109 story arcs that we have gone on, I guess, do you go on a story arc? 00:01:05.109 --> 00:01:06.339 I guess here it goes on a journey. 00:01:06.339 --> 00:01:06.609 Right? 00:01:06.609 --> 00:01:10.059 We learned that from StoryBrand, but um, we had these sort of 00:01:10.089 --> 00:01:14.882 unintentional arcs and I still feel like our show is stronger when we 00:01:14.882 --> 00:01:17.162 stuck to those unintentional arcs. 00:01:17.162 --> 00:01:20.732 And of course, anyone with a communications or like writing or anything 00:01:20.732 --> 00:01:23.219 background is probably like, yeah. 00:01:25.191 --> 00:01:26.001 Colleen: Obviously. 00:01:26.099 --> 00:01:28.409 Michele: Um, Yeah, podcasting one-on-one. 00:01:28.909 --> 00:01:32.509 But, yeah, I mean, I guess so when we, let's talk about this for a minute. 00:01:32.509 --> 00:01:36.219 So when we started out, it was, I had just moved to Denmark. 00:01:36.267 --> 00:01:40.287 We'd been running for six years at that point. 00:01:40.787 --> 00:01:48.204 You were a consultant and for at least a year at that point had been 00:01:48.204 --> 00:01:52.074 like, trying to like dedicate one day a week to side projects to try 00:01:52.074 --> 00:01:54.399 to get uh, SaaS off the ground. 00:01:54.899 --> 00:01:55.109 Colleen: Yeah. 00:01:55.609 --> 00:01:59.539 Michele: And that, I mean, I feel like your kind of journey with that. 00:01:59.539 --> 00:02:03.399 And eventually, like, I guess, I guess it was like maybe like a month after 00:02:03.399 --> 00:02:08.039 we started that you decided to focus on simple file upload because it was on 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:09.569 the, you needed for your own clients. 00:02:09.569 --> 00:02:13.369 You were tired of building image, uploading every single time. 00:02:13.869 --> 00:02:15.249 Colleen: Yeah, I think that was right. 00:02:15.519 --> 00:02:15.699 Yeah. 00:02:15.729 --> 00:02:16.599 That sounds about right. 00:02:17.097 --> 00:02:17.397 Michele: Yeah. 00:02:17.397 --> 00:02:21.644 And so then we, followed you on that journey basically for six months. 00:02:21.644 --> 00:02:23.504 Well, I guess when we started out, we did, like, we tried to 00:02:23.504 --> 00:02:24.794 do like 15 minutes of each of us. 00:02:26.019 --> 00:02:26.499 I don't know. 00:02:26.559 --> 00:02:27.789 I guess we got tired of that. 00:02:27.789 --> 00:02:31.809 And we like, and we also realized when we prepared for it, we were too stilted. 00:02:31.809 --> 00:02:35.739 And um, it'd be kind of interesting to go back and listen to those, to 00:02:35.739 --> 00:02:40.569 hear us like experimenting with format before we decided to have no format. 00:02:42.729 --> 00:02:43.329 Screw it. 00:02:43.419 --> 00:02:43.719 Yeah. 00:02:43.764 --> 00:02:44.994 Colleen: We just decided to stop. 00:02:45.129 --> 00:02:47.199 Michele: Um, And then you, so you launched. 00:02:47.699 --> 00:02:48.749 And got customers. 00:02:48.779 --> 00:02:52.769 And bought a twenty dollar bagel in February of 2021. 00:02:53.579 --> 00:02:57.989 And, and that was also around the time that I started writing my book. 00:02:58.492 --> 00:03:02.092 And so then there's like, last spring, there's kind of the arc of 00:03:02.092 --> 00:03:05.752 you trying to like get your first customers, start to like grow simple 00:03:05.752 --> 00:03:07.522 file uploads, still doing consulting. 00:03:08.022 --> 00:03:12.419 Um, I'm writing the book, figuring out how to write a book, how to market a book. 00:03:12.924 --> 00:03:16.314 Having a lot of self doubt and angst about that. 00:03:16.815 --> 00:03:22.105 And then you kind of, I guess, got a little bit disillusioned with simple 00:03:22.105 --> 00:03:24.655 file upload and in a way, and like, you know, there's some financial 00:03:24.655 --> 00:03:26.875 pressures and you were like, you know what, I just need to take a job. 00:03:28.145 --> 00:03:33.995 You took a job and then you had that job for like three weeks or something like. 00:03:34.425 --> 00:03:35.265 Colleen: No. 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:39.570 Michele: A month, you were totally like um, Adam Scott's character in parks 00:03:39.570 --> 00:03:42.140 and rec where he liked, I don't know if you've seen parks and rec, like, so 00:03:42.140 --> 00:03:45.470 there's this running meme that he like takes a job, at an accounting firm. 00:03:45.470 --> 00:03:48.350 And then like on his first day he tells them he actually has to quit. 00:03:48.350 --> 00:03:50.240 And this happens several times. 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:56.540 Um, And then, so you took a job and then people are like, wait, Colleen is 00:03:56.540 --> 00:03:59.210 for hire uh, let me offer her a job. 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:04.145 So then you got all these jobs off, which led to working on hammer stone 00:04:04.649 --> 00:04:06.179 because it's like funded by a client. 00:04:06.179 --> 00:04:09.389 So now you're actually founder of two different things. 00:04:09.509 --> 00:04:14.872 And then did you stop doing work for other clients when you started on hammer stone? 00:04:14.872 --> 00:04:16.552 Like, do you have other clients at this point? 00:04:16.955 --> 00:04:19.025 Colleen: Yeah, I have one, one kind of 00:04:19.325 --> 00:04:19.745 Michele: Okay. 00:04:20.435 --> 00:04:24.455 This seems pretty common for people who are consultants to have like one client 00:04:24.455 --> 00:04:26.699 that kind of just hangs on no matter. 00:04:27.449 --> 00:04:31.819 Colleen: Yeah, I think, okay, so we lasted like a big update 00:04:31.999 --> 00:04:33.259 at new year's, right, which is 00:04:33.594 --> 00:04:35.144 Michele: I was Like six months ago, Colleen. 00:04:35.709 --> 00:04:36.189 Colleen: Oh my gosh. 00:04:36.189 --> 00:04:38.709 That was June, and that was six months ago. 00:04:39.219 --> 00:04:44.859 So I feel like if we look at, if we want to like look back, I think for 00:04:44.859 --> 00:04:50.452 you, when we started the podcast, you were kind of, you like had 00:04:50.452 --> 00:04:52.603 your business in obscurity, like 00:04:52.723 --> 00:04:53.833 Michele: Yeah, I guess so. 00:04:54.330 --> 00:04:54.720 Yeah. 00:04:55.225 --> 00:04:55.615 Colleen: You guess? 00:04:55.615 --> 00:04:56.035 So. 00:04:56.215 --> 00:04:56.455 No. 00:04:56.455 --> 00:04:57.385 No, for sure, so. 00:05:01.075 --> 00:05:05.005 Michele: I was in an obscure artisanally crafted founder. 00:05:05.514 --> 00:05:10.344 Colleen: Well, I feel like we are so now active on the internet. 00:05:10.764 --> 00:05:16.404 I feel like before that, I mean, you guys were running a super successful 00:05:16.404 --> 00:05:18.684 SAS, like before we started the podcast. 00:05:18.714 --> 00:05:22.824 I mean, not kind of well-known in the bootstrap. 00:05:23.329 --> 00:05:24.079 Michele: Yeah, I guess so. 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:27.829 Yeah, I guess we had been to micro con once, like, and I talked to 00:05:27.829 --> 00:05:29.569 people on Twitter a little bit. 00:05:29.599 --> 00:05:29.929 Like. 00:05:30.109 --> 00:05:34.129 Yeah, but I guess I didn't really feel like a part of the community. 00:05:34.349 --> 00:05:35.729 I didn't really feel like I have. 00:05:36.377 --> 00:05:39.167 Like, as I felt like, you know, a part of like, you know, the independent, 00:05:39.167 --> 00:05:44.101 like software worlds, but yeah, I guess I didn't really uh, I dunno, I dunno. 00:05:44.101 --> 00:05:46.891 I didn't feel like I had like a ton of, you know, community beyond, 00:05:46.931 --> 00:05:51.091 beyond the couple of people I knew and sort of some small communities. 00:05:51.593 --> 00:05:54.691 Colleen: So when I look at like your story, through this 00:05:54.691 --> 00:05:57.271 podcast journey to me, for you. 00:05:57.271 --> 00:05:59.881 I mean, you guys were already successful doing over. 00:06:00.131 --> 00:06:01.181 You say this publicly, right? 00:06:01.181 --> 00:06:07.421 Like over a million before, um, We started the podcast, but I think for you, so for 00:06:07.421 --> 00:06:11.261 me, when I think of the podcast, like, I think for you, it's more personal and for 00:06:11.441 --> 00:06:12.041 Michele: Hmm. 00:06:12.071 --> 00:06:12.731 Colleen: business. 00:06:13.233 --> 00:06:15.093 So you. 00:06:15.842 --> 00:06:16.502 W okay. 00:06:16.592 --> 00:06:19.892 Relative obscurity, I didn't mean to make you feel bad. 00:06:19.892 --> 00:06:21.722 I feel like no one who you were, no one knew 00:06:21.797 --> 00:06:21.977 Michele: I 00:06:21.977 --> 00:06:25.277 was a beside Japan only release of a founder. 00:06:27.212 --> 00:06:27.662 Colleen: Right. 00:06:28.922 --> 00:06:32.012 But that's, what's so interesting about it is like it also, it brings 00:06:32.012 --> 00:06:34.682 home the point that, that those of us, a lot of us are trying to build 00:06:34.682 --> 00:06:35.942 in public and be active on Twitter. 00:06:35.942 --> 00:06:38.402 And those things are good, but there's a lot of people like you and Mathias who 00:06:38.402 --> 00:06:40.202 are running million dollar plus sasses 00:06:40.347 --> 00:06:41.487 Michele: And there's more of us too. 00:06:41.487 --> 00:06:43.947 Like I have friends who are in this position who are not. 00:06:44.950 --> 00:06:45.370 Colleen: Right. 00:06:45.820 --> 00:06:49.690 But I think for you, this has been kind of like an interesting personal 00:06:50.193 --> 00:06:53.943 uh, experience because we started the podcast and I feel like you really 00:06:53.943 --> 00:06:57.843 quickly started engaging with the community and became like a really 00:06:57.843 --> 00:07:03.167 active, well-respected member in kind of the bootstrapping indie hacking, 00:07:03.167 --> 00:07:04.607 whatever you want to call it community. 00:07:05.107 --> 00:07:08.972 And, that was kind of like a stepping stone to the book. 00:07:09.422 --> 00:07:15.062 And then obviously the book U S you know, speed wrote that and like we're so, and 00:07:15.062 --> 00:07:19.412 have been so active on podcast and the book, and then of course the burnout. 00:07:19.527 --> 00:07:23.937 Michele: I think was that really coming sort of to reus was like that, you 00:07:23.937 --> 00:07:27.987 know, I think when, when we started the podcast, I had just moved to a foreign 00:07:27.987 --> 00:07:29.667 country in the middle of a pandemic. 00:07:30.057 --> 00:07:34.126 So I, didn't have any friends. 00:07:34.216 --> 00:07:38.276 You know, my in-laws here of course, like, so I had family, but I basically 00:07:38.276 --> 00:07:42.229 just needed people to talk to um, and to feel like I had friends. 00:07:42.733 --> 00:07:47.123 And yeah, I think kind of the burnout was a little bit of like, you know, there's 00:07:47.483 --> 00:07:51.773 some instances where people were kind of, putting me on a pedestal a little bit. 00:07:51.773 --> 00:07:53.723 And I was like, oh God, like, I don't want this. 00:07:53.723 --> 00:07:55.013 I was like, I'm not in this to be famous. 00:07:55.013 --> 00:07:55.883 I just want friends. 00:07:57.623 --> 00:07:59.453 Um, So I, Yeah. 00:07:59.453 --> 00:08:02.388 I guess that kind of drove that a little bit, but also, you know, the 00:08:02.388 --> 00:08:05.468 book also came out of being like, you know, I used to just hop in a phone 00:08:05.468 --> 00:08:09.298 call with people if they had questions about doing like product strategy or 00:08:09.388 --> 00:08:15.154 user research, or kind of anything sort of related to that and being, you 00:08:15.154 --> 00:08:19.144 know, six to nine hours, time zone wise away like that just wasn't as possible. 00:08:19.144 --> 00:08:23.338 And so then that made writing a book more important because it was a way for 00:08:23.338 --> 00:08:27.868 me to sort of scale myself when I just genuinely didn't have the ability in my 00:08:27.868 --> 00:08:33.172 calendar to do, you know, just have those sort of impromptu phone calls with people 00:08:33.172 --> 00:08:35.042 from Twitter anymore, unfortunately. 00:08:35.544 --> 00:08:35.934 Colleen: Yeah. 00:08:36.434 --> 00:08:39.824 Um, and so then the book and then like all the accumulated burnout 00:08:39.824 --> 00:08:41.294 and like recovering from that. 00:08:41.774 --> 00:08:45.524 So that's kinda what I meant when I said, I feel like for you, it's kind of 00:08:45.524 --> 00:08:46.784 like been more of a personal journey. 00:08:46.784 --> 00:08:47.264 And for me it's 00:08:47.524 --> 00:08:48.034 Michele: Yeah. 00:08:48.694 --> 00:08:51.304 Though, I mean, so speaking about, I mean uh, where we're going, I 00:08:51.304 --> 00:08:55.610 think actually for me, it's going to be more of a business journey. 00:08:57.080 --> 00:09:00.470 We're actually for a reason that I don't know, if I don't 00:09:00.470 --> 00:09:02.720 think I told you yet, actually. 00:09:03.213 --> 00:09:05.133 Colleen: I'm on pins and needles over here. 00:09:05.163 --> 00:09:05.583 Geez. 00:09:05.763 --> 00:09:06.063 Okay. 00:09:06.063 --> 00:09:08.193 Michelle, we're like 10 minutes into the podcast. 00:09:08.193 --> 00:09:08.253 I 00:09:08.413 --> 00:09:08.783 Michele: burying 00:09:08.973 --> 00:09:10.173 Colleen: to but you're 00:09:10.543 --> 00:09:11.533 Michele: Totally burying the lead. 00:09:12.043 --> 00:09:16.867 Um, We are making our first hire, like full-time hire. 00:09:17.365 --> 00:09:18.745 Colleen: Oh, that's wonderful. 00:09:18.745 --> 00:09:20.305 I'm so happy for you. 00:09:20.585 --> 00:09:24.028 Michele: The next yeah, six months or so that's going to be me figuring 00:09:24.028 --> 00:09:29.308 that out, an us, you know, going from being a two person only company 00:09:29.338 --> 00:09:31.618 to a three person company, of course. 00:09:31.618 --> 00:09:35.278 Plus, you know, we still have, you know, contractors, I still get like a VA. 00:09:35.278 --> 00:09:35.458 Right. 00:09:35.458 --> 00:09:38.458 I feel like that's kind of, part of it is like I got, I finally got a VA last 00:09:39.088 --> 00:09:41.998 January and of course, you know, we always had an accountant and a lawyer before. 00:09:42.748 --> 00:09:48.875 Felt a little bit different, and so us kind of very slowly branching out into 00:09:48.875 --> 00:09:50.945 not being, you know, just the two of us. 00:09:50.945 --> 00:09:53.875 And, we also decided to go through SOC two. 00:09:53.875 --> 00:09:59.055 So there's kind of a, there's a lot of actually business stuff going on. 00:09:59.055 --> 00:10:05.010 And I think the book and kind of all of that sort, stuff is going to be a little 00:10:05.010 --> 00:10:07.710 bit less of a focus also because, you. 00:10:07.710 --> 00:10:09.980 know, I'm, you know, the, the book is written. 00:10:09.980 --> 00:10:12.830 I'm not writing the newsletter really any more just to update people when 00:10:12.830 --> 00:10:14.520 I'm doing like a talk or something. 00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:17.610 I am going to conferences, which I'm super excited about. 00:10:18.533 --> 00:10:20.153 yeah kind of less of a focus. 00:10:20.153 --> 00:10:21.593 Colleen: kind of person are you hiring 00:10:21.653 --> 00:10:27.053 Michele: Um, so a combination, their title will be contents and support engineer. 00:10:27.323 --> 00:10:33.073 So a combination of technical support, and also um, like 00:10:33.073 --> 00:10:35.233 basically developer focused content. 00:10:35.233 --> 00:10:40.543 So like creating sample projects, creating tutorials on how to do things like from a, 00:10:40.993 --> 00:10:45.283 you know, a developer's perspective of, if you need to build an app that, you know, 00:10:45.283 --> 00:10:46.963 let someone look up their congressperson. 00:10:47.623 --> 00:10:50.623 Here's a sample app and rails that lets you do that. 00:10:50.623 --> 00:10:52.993 For example, that's like a full tutorial on how somebody 00:10:52.993 --> 00:10:54.073 could build that, for example. 00:10:54.575 --> 00:10:57.305 Colleen: So you were prepared to pay a developer salary. 00:10:57.335 --> 00:10:57.995 Michele: Yes. 00:10:58.461 --> 00:10:58.761 Colleen: Okay. 00:10:58.791 --> 00:11:01.401 So you're hiring, you're essentially kind of like what Aaron does a Tuple. 00:11:01.486 --> 00:11:01.731 Right? 00:11:01.731 --> 00:11:05.451 It sounds like, Like developer, marketer, content, e. 00:11:05.961 --> 00:11:07.461 Michele: Uh, It will be different than Aaron's role. 00:11:07.461 --> 00:11:07.971 I kinda, yeah. 00:11:08.001 --> 00:11:12.771 I mean, in that same sort of content engineering space of like, building tools 00:11:12.771 --> 00:11:18.395 and resources for developers, I feel like Aaron's role is a bit different and 00:11:18.395 --> 00:11:21.455 also this one is, half support as well. 00:11:22.146 --> 00:11:22.986 Colleen: Half support. 00:11:22.986 --> 00:11:23.256 Okay. 00:11:23.256 --> 00:11:27.606 So will they also help Mathias with like tech stuff or no? 00:11:27.916 --> 00:11:29.146 Will they be on call. 00:11:29.146 --> 00:11:30.706 and how will you handle that 00:11:31.111 --> 00:11:31.291 Michele: I 00:11:31.291 --> 00:11:31.591 think we have. 00:11:32.536 --> 00:11:33.636 Not now. 00:11:34.326 --> 00:11:34.686 Yeah. 00:11:34.686 --> 00:11:35.136 I think it's two. 00:11:35.136 --> 00:11:37.746 I think really what would be helpful is like somebody, you 00:11:37.746 --> 00:11:39.366 know, we get a support request. 00:11:39.366 --> 00:11:41.946 It's like, Hey, I'm having trouble with your Python library. 00:11:41.946 --> 00:11:46.516 And like, it's something that like I can do a little bit of very basic API 00:11:46.516 --> 00:11:50.384 troubleshooting, but, um, not too much. 00:11:50.384 --> 00:11:53.974 And so, and like, if we could just you know, take that off of Mathias has 00:11:53.974 --> 00:11:55.244 plate I think that would really help. 00:11:55.694 --> 00:11:57.194 Um, like I've gotten help. 00:11:57.224 --> 00:12:00.344 you know, I have the VA, I have a bookkeeper, we have an accountant. 00:12:00.344 --> 00:12:04.934 We have like lawyer, like I've, I've gotten some help on some of the sort 00:12:04.934 --> 00:12:08.564 of low hanging fruit tasks for me, but Mathias hasn't really gotten that help. 00:12:09.164 --> 00:12:11.804 Um, And so I think that's kind of where we're hoping that 00:12:11.804 --> 00:12:13.034 they will plug in and also. 00:12:13.774 --> 00:12:18.274 You know, but also, you know, grow in that role, um, as well, but then also 00:12:18.274 --> 00:12:19.654 both of us have to figure out how to be. 00:12:19.654 --> 00:12:20.764 managers because 00:12:21.094 --> 00:12:23.224 Colleen: It's only one person, you don't really have to be. 00:12:23.314 --> 00:12:23.794 Michele: yeah. 00:12:24.304 --> 00:12:24.634 Yeah. 00:12:24.634 --> 00:12:24.934 I know. 00:12:24.934 --> 00:12:27.424 But both of us were like, Oh we just love that, it's just the two of us and 00:12:27.424 --> 00:12:29.104 it's, there's no drama and it's so calm. 00:12:29.104 --> 00:12:29.464 Like, 00:12:29.914 --> 00:12:33.574 so I know, I know I'm just saying we, both of us will have to 00:12:33.574 --> 00:12:35.974 figure out like how to do that. 00:12:35.974 --> 00:12:38.074 We'll probably have to have a lot more process, like you 00:12:38.074 --> 00:12:39.274 know, actually have to have like 00:12:39.453 --> 00:12:39.873 Colleen: Oh my gosh. 00:12:39.873 --> 00:12:40.383 This is so. 00:12:40.544 --> 00:12:45.784 Michele: uh, like, uh, actually prioritize all of our issues and to do's and like, 00:12:45.814 --> 00:12:47.694 I'll have to do some actual PM-ing. 00:12:47.724 --> 00:12:53.027 so, And then, you, know, how SOC two changes our business, like the 00:12:53.027 --> 00:12:56.417 intent of doing that is not to grow it's to, again, lighten the load 00:12:56.417 --> 00:12:59.597 for Mathis so that he doesn't have to be spending hours in security 00:12:59.597 --> 00:13:01.607 reviews for our enterprise customers. 00:13:01.607 --> 00:13:05.702 And instead we can just send them over SOC two audit report. 00:13:05.732 --> 00:13:09.672 And, hopefully that saves a lot of time, but then again, 00:13:09.672 --> 00:13:12.222 whenever we make improvements to our product, it tends to grow. 00:13:12.222 --> 00:13:13.482 And so then it's always like, 00:13:13.747 --> 00:13:14.107 Colleen: Oh, 00:13:14.412 --> 00:13:15.432 Michele: So now we have to deal with that. 00:13:15.672 --> 00:13:16.182 I know. 00:13:16.182 --> 00:13:16.302 I'm 00:13:16.302 --> 00:13:16.662 sorry. 00:13:16.662 --> 00:13:16.812 I 00:13:16.812 --> 00:13:17.952 just, yeah, I sound terrible. 00:13:17.982 --> 00:13:18.372 I know. 00:13:18.372 --> 00:13:20.112 It's so it's so it's so hard. 00:13:20.112 --> 00:13:23.292 But you know, I mean, we're recording today. 00:13:23.292 --> 00:13:28.182 It's almost eight o'clock for me, like, you know, I have a family, like, you know. 00:13:28.182 --> 00:13:32.394 It's just a constant negotiation between, balancing like, you 00:13:32.394 --> 00:13:34.644 know, life and, the business. 00:13:34.644 --> 00:13:39.174 And um, and yes, I recognize it's an enviable position to be in 00:13:39.174 --> 00:13:40.344 and I should not be complaining. 00:13:40.394 --> 00:13:43.214 It's just, it's a challenge of like making ourselves more 00:13:43.214 --> 00:13:46.574 efficient and automating and yeah. 00:13:47.077 --> 00:13:51.607 Colleen: I feel like you can absolutely complain because you do have challenges. 00:13:51.812 --> 00:13:54.512 Michele: I mean, we've realized we haven't gone on a work free 00:13:54.512 --> 00:13:57.072 vacation, for eight years. 00:13:57.572 --> 00:13:58.292 Colleen: Eight years. 00:13:58.382 --> 00:13:58.682 Yeah. 00:13:59.177 --> 00:14:02.143 I was giving you a hard time, but I mean, you were here and you, you 00:14:02.153 --> 00:14:04.673 guys like, yeah, I saw, I saw you. 00:14:04.853 --> 00:14:09.083 So, I mean, I understand, I mean, I saw you and like how you, because 00:14:09.083 --> 00:14:13.638 it's just the two of you, you can never be fully disconnected ever. 00:14:13.968 --> 00:14:14.478 I get that. 00:14:14.478 --> 00:14:15.858 That is a real stress. 00:14:15.858 --> 00:14:17.268 And that is a real challenge. 00:14:17.298 --> 00:14:19.878 I am really proud of you for trying to hire someone. 00:14:19.878 --> 00:14:21.108 I think it's going to be amazing. 00:14:21.948 --> 00:14:24.948 But speaking of your crazy schedule, people ask me what you 00:14:24.948 --> 00:14:27.258 do all day and I have no idea. 00:14:27.618 --> 00:14:33.078 So um, I got a suggestion, not for this episode, but like for a future 00:14:33.078 --> 00:14:38.298 episode, like to do a day in the life of Michelle as the co-founder of , because 00:14:38.298 --> 00:14:40.038 I'm like she works all the time. 00:14:40.693 --> 00:14:42.583 I literally don't know what she does. 00:14:43.138 --> 00:14:46.458 Michele: Like keep like a diary or, oh God, should I become a tick tocker, 00:14:46.558 --> 00:14:49.168 who's like, here's my day in the life. 00:14:49.198 --> 00:14:49.858 And now this 00:14:49.963 --> 00:14:50.173 Colleen: how to 00:14:50.188 --> 00:14:51.178 Michele: do my dance now. 00:14:51.418 --> 00:14:52.168 Um. 00:14:52.783 --> 00:14:54.253 Colleen: But it was like a real question. 00:14:54.253 --> 00:14:56.803 Cause I was like, I don't, no one knows what you do. 00:14:57.238 --> 00:14:58.618 Michele: What would you say you 00:14:58.753 --> 00:14:59.983 Colleen: like a big mystery. 00:15:01.303 --> 00:15:02.743 What would you do here? 00:15:03.535 --> 00:15:06.375 I don't mean my response was, I was like, I think she just negotiated 00:15:06.405 --> 00:15:07.755 enterprise contracts all day. 00:15:07.788 --> 00:15:09.528 Michele: I do spend a lot of time on that. 00:15:09.818 --> 00:15:12.908 I do a lot of time with, yeah. 00:15:13.118 --> 00:15:14.318 I mean, negotiating contracts. 00:15:14.318 --> 00:15:16.988 It's a lot of, like product type work too. 00:15:16.988 --> 00:15:21.548 I mean, so lately, you know, I'm chasing down data files for 00:15:21.578 --> 00:15:25.118 redistricted, congressional districts and state legislative districts, like 00:15:25.448 --> 00:15:31.355 um, you know, today I was talking to a potential data vendor trying 00:15:31.355 --> 00:15:32.765 to license some of their data. 00:15:33.268 --> 00:15:36.058 You know, of course, talk to the person we're to hire. 00:15:36.058 --> 00:15:37.288 I mean, I was also like, 00:15:37.790 --> 00:15:37.970 Colleen: oh, 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:38.540 Michele: oh yeah. 00:15:38.570 --> 00:15:43.460 oh, yeah, no, I mean, we haven't verbally agreed to um, oh yeah. 00:15:43.460 --> 00:15:44.570 I guess I should make that clear. 00:15:44.570 --> 00:15:44.810 Yeah. 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:45.973 It's like, Yeah. 00:15:45.973 --> 00:15:48.558 And they've been consulting for us for a month. 00:15:49.383 --> 00:15:50.733 So when it seems like it's a good fit. 00:15:50.853 --> 00:15:53.454 So I guess, yeah, I mean, it, I mean, okay. 00:15:53.484 --> 00:15:57.114 But like your story of everything going on with hammer stone and refined 00:15:57.114 --> 00:15:59.964 in the workshop, I mean, that's just like, that's really interesting. 00:15:59.964 --> 00:16:02.394 That's more interesting than my life to me, quite frankly. 00:16:02.394 --> 00:16:03.354 So like, I would rather 00:16:05.914 --> 00:16:06.184 Colleen: No. 00:16:06.244 --> 00:16:07.324 I mean, it is very interesting. 00:16:07.324 --> 00:16:08.164 Like I have a little. 00:16:09.144 --> 00:16:10.494 Like, yeah. 00:16:10.524 --> 00:16:14.154 I have a lot going on, like I do and things for me because of 00:16:14.154 --> 00:16:15.834 where I am change frequently. 00:16:16.164 --> 00:16:16.854 So 00:16:16.874 --> 00:16:18.224 Michele: growth stage of things. 00:16:18.434 --> 00:16:18.984 Colleen: The beginning. 00:16:18.984 --> 00:16:19.854 Exciting. 00:16:19.884 --> 00:16:20.184 Yeah. 00:16:20.184 --> 00:16:21.174 Like, is it going to work? 00:16:21.174 --> 00:16:23.064 Is it not, how fast are we going to grow? 00:16:23.114 --> 00:16:24.464 No, it is very exciting. 00:16:24.464 --> 00:16:27.044 And I get that and what I'm doing is, really cool and 00:16:27.044 --> 00:16:29.324 very fun and very energizing. 00:16:30.014 --> 00:16:33.001 But anyway, Yeah, I realized I have no idea what you do. 00:16:33.091 --> 00:16:34.231 I was like, I don't really know. 00:16:34.291 --> 00:16:37.811 I mean, she just eats bond bonds and pick strawberries all day. 00:16:38.651 --> 00:16:39.101 Kidding. 00:16:39.101 --> 00:16:41.801 I know you work all day, but that is like, the thing is like you work all 00:16:41.801 --> 00:16:42.731 day, but I don't know what you do. 00:16:43.271 --> 00:16:45.011 Um, yeah. 00:16:45.263 --> 00:16:46.403 Michele: Diary or something. 00:16:46.508 --> 00:16:47.498 Colleen: Maybe it would be fun. 00:16:47.498 --> 00:16:48.308 I think you should. 00:16:48.308 --> 00:16:49.988 I think like maybe for like a day or 00:16:50.103 --> 00:16:51.273 Michele: I'm going to just do a lot of like 00:16:51.303 --> 00:16:52.203 operational. 00:16:53.198 --> 00:16:53.618 stuff. 00:16:53.618 --> 00:16:56.228 I mean, you know, I mean, do customer support, like I 00:16:56.738 --> 00:16:58.688 follow up on invoices, right? 00:16:58.688 --> 00:17:01.208 Like, you know, just make sure like the sort of that house 00:17:01.208 --> 00:17:04.358 is in order with contracts and invoices and everything like that. 00:17:04.514 --> 00:17:08.824 I mean, replying to customers, negotiating contracts, doing, you 00:17:08.824 --> 00:17:11.614 know, product touching stuff, right. 00:17:11.614 --> 00:17:16.744 Writing content, you know, writing guides about how people can use our product. 00:17:17.286 --> 00:17:21.006 Yeah, and then I, you know, admittedly, I do a lot of podcasting, too, which 00:17:21.106 --> 00:17:25.996 is probably too much, but I'm I'm kind of excited for it to shift from like 00:17:26.416 --> 00:17:29.746 talking about the book on podcasts, which I will still do, but like 00:17:29.776 --> 00:17:31.486 more so like going to conferences. 00:17:31.486 --> 00:17:33.466 To what we said, like of why I do this, you know. 00:17:33.766 --> 00:17:36.316 First of all, the reason why we do this podcast is to force us to 00:17:36.316 --> 00:17:37.606 talk to one another every week. 00:17:38.116 --> 00:17:40.666 Everybody listening, I'm sorry, this podcast is not for you. 00:17:40.666 --> 00:17:46.853 It's for Colleen and I um, but then really it's, you know, to make friends. 00:17:46.883 --> 00:17:47.123 Right. 00:17:47.273 --> 00:17:52.313 So I'm excited to just talk to people in person, which, what 00:17:52.313 --> 00:17:54.773 a novelty um, at a conference. 00:17:55.926 --> 00:17:56.226 Yeah. 00:17:56.256 --> 00:17:59.239 That's that's me for like, Six months. 00:17:59.239 --> 00:17:59.989 to a year. 00:18:00.439 --> 00:18:01.069 hope is kind 00:18:01.189 --> 00:18:02.029 Colleen: Six months. 00:18:02.239 --> 00:18:02.449 Yeah. 00:18:02.479 --> 00:18:05.899 Cause we probably won't do another check-in until, oh my gosh. 00:18:06.199 --> 00:18:06.559 I can't. 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:06.769 Okay. 00:18:06.769 --> 00:18:09.519 First of all, yeah, six months from now, we'll probably do it 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:11.769 next year, 2023, which is weird. 00:18:12.273 --> 00:18:13.683 So a lot's going to change 00:18:14.556 --> 00:18:15.336 Michele: I mean for you. 00:18:15.396 --> 00:18:15.606 Yeah. 00:18:15.606 --> 00:18:19.686 I mean, the big thing for you is like you have this like cliff coming up in 00:18:19.686 --> 00:18:26.309 August of does Colleen have to go back and get more clients again, or can she 00:18:26.309 --> 00:18:32.509 stay full-time on hammer stone or refine or whatever we're calling it these days. 00:18:33.379 --> 00:18:33.739 Okay. 00:18:33.779 --> 00:18:34.259 Colleen: Refine. 00:18:34.259 --> 00:18:37.066 Here's the deal, Aaron talked about this, I'm committing To refine. 00:18:37.066 --> 00:18:40.046 No, like it's not that I don't appreciate what you're saying, but I 00:18:40.046 --> 00:18:44.319 feel like you, you give suggestions about things, would matter when we're 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:45.699 in a million dollar business and 00:18:45.749 --> 00:18:48.659 Michele: Yeah, but you don't want to get a cease and desist from somebody like right. 00:18:48.973 --> 00:18:49.693 That's not fun. 00:18:49.693 --> 00:18:51.043 I know people who that's happened too. 00:18:51.043 --> 00:18:54.973 We got one for one of our freaking like a mobile app we made once, we got 00:18:54.973 --> 00:18:59.023 a cease and desist because somebody had a trademark on two words in 00:18:59.023 --> 00:19:03.736 our phrase, just did it takes five seconds, go do a trademark search. 00:19:03.736 --> 00:19:08.806 You don't actually have to file the trademark, but just go do the search 00:19:08.806 --> 00:19:13.986 before you commit to refine so that you know, that it's at least available. 00:19:14.486 --> 00:19:14.846 Colleen: Yeah. 00:19:14.956 --> 00:19:17.746 Michele: That's actually, that's also the kind of thing like I deal 00:19:17.746 --> 00:19:20.246 with was you know, one point I was filing the trademark application and 00:19:20.246 --> 00:19:21.626 then, you know, I'm not a lawyer. 00:19:21.626 --> 00:19:22.406 And so I filed it wrong. 00:19:22.406 --> 00:19:25.706 And so that actually had to, you know, ask our lawyer to go do it and like, 00:19:26.453 --> 00:19:30.403 just, I don't know, like little stuff like that, but it's actually important. 00:19:30.673 --> 00:19:31.003 to. 00:19:31.349 --> 00:19:31.769 Colleen: Yeah. 00:19:32.516 --> 00:19:36.686 Yeah, so since we last did an update was January. 00:19:36.686 --> 00:19:38.669 So this is June today. 00:19:38.729 --> 00:19:39.539 Oh my goodness. 00:19:40.036 --> 00:19:44.926 So the next six months for me, it will a lot will change because in the next six 00:19:44.926 --> 00:19:50.638 months, we are going to, I mean, we're all in on refine and so, or hammer stone, 00:19:50.638 --> 00:19:53.728 whatever we call it, but I'm going to call it, refine for the immediate future. 00:19:54.118 --> 00:19:55.348 We're all in on refined. 00:19:55.378 --> 00:19:59.158 So it's going to be getting this product off the ground. 00:19:59.308 --> 00:20:05.468 I mean, it's just going to be head down, try all the things and get this out there. 00:20:05.468 --> 00:20:06.608 So it's going to be really exciting. 00:20:06.938 --> 00:20:09.438 I think a lot is going to change between now and January. 00:20:09.941 --> 00:20:10.181 Yeah. 00:20:10.211 --> 00:20:13.031 Even I've already started kind of making the shift. 00:20:13.541 --> 00:20:17.141 We hired a contractor, a rails guy, and he's amazing. 00:20:17.621 --> 00:20:22.961 And so he is doing more of the technical work right now, so I 00:20:22.961 --> 00:20:24.941 can focus on more of the business. 00:20:25.511 --> 00:20:29.471 So I still, yeah, so I still have to do a lot of technical work, but 00:20:29.501 --> 00:20:34.056 before it was like a hundred percent like 40 hours a week technical. 00:20:34.116 --> 00:20:34.506 Right. 00:20:34.776 --> 00:20:37.566 Whereas if we're going to grow this as a business, like I have to business. 00:20:37.689 --> 00:20:41.709 So it's an interesting thing though, because as I do more business, I'm 00:20:41.709 --> 00:20:43.209 not getting those consulting dollars. 00:20:43.209 --> 00:20:48.519 So my actual personal income goes down so I can focus on building the business. 00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:53.009 Which is exactly what I want to be doing, but also it's kind of like, oh, okay. 00:20:53.249 --> 00:20:54.509 Like good to, good to know. 00:20:55.529 --> 00:20:57.029 Good to, good to see. 00:20:57.029 --> 00:21:00.840 So yeah, so the next six months for me, or this is definitely going to be 00:21:01.342 --> 00:21:04.372 hammer stone, scale back consulting. 00:21:04.876 --> 00:21:09.316 And my sister was here this weekend, and she is off maternity leave. 00:21:09.706 --> 00:21:12.646 And so she is ready to start working on simple file upload 00:21:12.646 --> 00:21:13.696 again from a marketing person. 00:21:14.446 --> 00:21:16.816 So she has all kinds of ideas and she's all excited. 00:21:17.236 --> 00:21:19.006 So I'm going to let her run with that. 00:21:19.006 --> 00:21:21.886 So hopefully she can, you know, run with that and see if we can 00:21:21.906 --> 00:21:24.816 Michele: But you just said you're all in on Hammerstone, but then you 00:21:24.816 --> 00:21:28.686 just told me that you've got this resource coming back online, so to 00:21:28.686 --> 00:21:32.946 speak, and she's going to be focusing on simple file upload and not refine. 00:21:33.446 --> 00:21:33.776 Colleen: Right. 00:21:33.986 --> 00:21:34.996 So I think all in. 00:21:36.086 --> 00:21:38.966 I mean, I'm working a lot right now. 00:21:38.966 --> 00:21:43.010 If I can scale back consulting, I think I'm going to have time to do 00:21:43.010 --> 00:21:47.096 both because remember my business partner has a job and a half already, 00:21:47.336 --> 00:21:50.926 so I think I will have, we'll see. 00:21:50.926 --> 00:21:54.696 I mean, I'm, you know, obviously open to managing things differently if I 00:21:54.696 --> 00:21:59.723 need to, but I think I will have time for both um, once a consult goes away. 00:21:59.723 --> 00:22:04.433 And then I can a simple file, upload revenue to offset what 00:22:04.433 --> 00:22:05.723 I'm not making from consulting. 00:22:06.227 --> 00:22:06.557 Michele: Right. 00:22:06.557 --> 00:22:10.697 So I think, I remember last time we talked about the work your sister 00:22:10.697 --> 00:22:16.599 was doing, you were basically putting the leftover profit into her work. 00:22:17.096 --> 00:22:18.686 Is that still how you're thinking about that? 00:22:19.186 --> 00:22:19.516 Colleen: Yeah. 00:22:19.546 --> 00:22:19.906 For now. 00:22:20.399 --> 00:22:23.529 Michele: What is it like, what is the revenue level of simple file upload 00:22:23.529 --> 00:22:24.759 right now, if you're, are you still 00:22:25.056 --> 00:22:28.400 Colleen: It's like, yeah, it's not, I mean maybe if it actually makes like 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:29.630 crazy money, I'll stop sharing it. 00:22:29.630 --> 00:22:29.810 Yeah. 00:22:29.810 --> 00:22:32.180 It's right around fifth, try to run 1500. 00:22:32.212 --> 00:22:34.252 Michele: so it's been about that level for like a year now. 00:22:34.252 --> 00:22:35.452 Like it got to like 13. 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:40.670 Colleen: No, it got to like, I mean, it's, if you look at the graph, it is growing, 00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:43.550 but it's growing like 35 bucks a month. 00:22:43.910 --> 00:22:44.540 So. 00:22:45.190 --> 00:22:49.356 Yeah, it's been stagnant for, I wouldn't say a year, but she went 00:22:49.356 --> 00:22:54.193 on maternity leave in September and I think September was the last 00:22:54.193 --> 00:22:55.573 time we really thought about it. 00:22:55.963 --> 00:22:58.063 So, and it's been relatively stagnant. 00:22:58.063 --> 00:23:00.523 It's grown like 200 MRR since September. 00:23:00.703 --> 00:23:05.286 So it's been pretty low um, just hanging out, but we haven't, I mean, she and 00:23:05.286 --> 00:23:06.066 I were talking about this weekend. 00:23:06.066 --> 00:23:08.436 We haven't done anything on it since september. 00:23:08.935 --> 00:23:13.968 Michele: I mean, that's 1500 bucks a month that you did not have previously, which 00:23:14.285 --> 00:23:14.675 Colleen: And 00:23:14.898 --> 00:23:17.268 Michele: over months of not doing 00:23:17.675 --> 00:23:19.115 Colleen: yeah, totally. 00:23:19.325 --> 00:23:24.295 So the thought is like, if she can put her full effort into marketing that cause it's 00:23:24.655 --> 00:23:29.275 really, I mean, nothing is ever feature complete, but it's feature complete ish. 00:23:29.335 --> 00:23:31.585 So she's going to kind of put all of her time and effort in. 00:23:32.290 --> 00:23:33.520 And see where we can go with that. 00:23:33.520 --> 00:23:37.330 And then I'm going to be primarily focused on hammer stone and see where we 00:23:37.330 --> 00:23:42.790 can go with hammer stone and hopefully, know, the stars will align, to, to do. 00:23:43.291 --> 00:23:45.121 Michele: Where Is Refine at? 00:23:45.301 --> 00:23:51.631 like, like, so last we talked with Erin, you had sold two licenses. 00:23:51.721 --> 00:23:52.771 Is that the pre-sold 00:23:53.067 --> 00:23:54.777 Colleen: I pre-sold two rails licenses. 00:23:54.777 --> 00:23:56.517 I want to say I figured it out. 00:23:56.517 --> 00:24:00.087 Cause I wanted to know what our MRR was and I think it's like three, if 00:24:00.087 --> 00:24:01.973 we take, so we sell annual licenses. 00:24:01.977 --> 00:24:02.427 I think we've, 00:24:02.511 --> 00:24:03.441 Michele: ARR then? 00:24:03.687 --> 00:24:08.567 Colleen: ARR I think is like, I think we've sold five licenses total. 00:24:09.071 --> 00:24:09.461 Michele: Oh, 00:24:09.867 --> 00:24:10.167 Colleen: Yeah. 00:24:10.211 --> 00:24:11.081 Michele: I guess it Includes us. 00:24:11.081 --> 00:24:11.411 Right. 00:24:11.427 --> 00:24:12.267 Colleen: Includes you guys. 00:24:13.641 --> 00:24:17.631 licenses total, not including the two like productized consulting contracts we had. 00:24:18.471 --> 00:24:24.370 So, yeah, so there's a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of uh, of opportunity 00:24:24.370 --> 00:24:27.450 there and it's already, I mean, we've already sold five licenses, 00:24:27.450 --> 00:24:30.480 which is pretty cool because we only have one product that's done 00:24:30.981 --> 00:24:33.081 Michele: And so, I mean, you said you're going to be shifting more 00:24:33.081 --> 00:24:34.491 towards doing business stuff. 00:24:34.521 --> 00:24:35.031 Like 00:24:35.112 --> 00:24:36.132 Colleen: business. 00:24:36.441 --> 00:24:37.991 Michele: what kind. 00:24:38.736 --> 00:24:39.756 business. 00:24:39.756 --> 00:24:40.206 stuff. 00:24:40.222 --> 00:24:40.702 Colleen: it's 00:24:40.746 --> 00:24:44.136 Michele: are you going to learn how to do this nebulous 00:24:44.196 --> 00:24:46.026 business stuff. 00:24:46.352 --> 00:24:47.582 Colleen: I feel so good about this. 00:24:47.582 --> 00:24:49.082 I feel like I know exactly what to do. 00:24:49.586 --> 00:24:49.856 Isn't it. 00:24:49.999 --> 00:24:50.959 Michele: W which is. 00:24:51.681 --> 00:24:55.521 Colleen: Okay, well, first thing, Aaron and I are completely redoing the landing 00:24:55.521 --> 00:24:59.601 page because if you go to our landing page, you can't really tell what the thing 00:24:59.601 --> 00:25:01.311 is or what it does or why you'd buy it. 00:25:01.881 --> 00:25:05.211 We are going to do um, we got MailChimp set up, so we're going to do like 00:25:05.211 --> 00:25:06.591 a marketing automation sequence. 00:25:06.591 --> 00:25:10.081 And it's going to be like how to do XYZ with refined, like 00:25:10.261 --> 00:25:12.931 friendly, friendly marketing emails. 00:25:13.682 --> 00:25:17.132 You know how to get that report, your boss wants with refine, how 00:25:17.132 --> 00:25:20.582 to let your user search by XYZ with refined stuff like that. 00:25:21.079 --> 00:25:24.036 Um, I have other stuff on my list. 00:25:24.066 --> 00:25:25.926 Those are two big ones to start. 00:25:25.986 --> 00:25:26.166 Oh. 00:25:26.166 --> 00:25:27.546 And the calls, the calls. 00:25:27.726 --> 00:25:29.796 So we have a, we have an email list of 500 people. 00:25:30.786 --> 00:25:33.936 So we're going to like pump that list and get, get on the phone with people. 00:25:34.371 --> 00:25:36.411 We have a call scheduled for Friday. 00:25:36.857 --> 00:25:39.107 He was scheduled last week, but he had to cancel last minute, 00:25:39.107 --> 00:25:40.457 which is totally makes sense. 00:25:40.697 --> 00:25:43.607 So we're trying to do one a week right now and we'll pick that 00:25:43.607 --> 00:25:45.227 pace up, like once we get going. 00:25:45.227 --> 00:25:48.655 But the big push for us right now is the calls and the 00:25:48.655 --> 00:25:49.915 understanding what people need. 00:25:50.335 --> 00:25:52.762 I'm trying to do this thing where I'm doing like a founding 00:25:52.762 --> 00:25:54.052 customers on the rail side. 00:25:54.052 --> 00:25:58.012 So I'm going to take five pre-orders only, and those five 00:25:58.012 --> 00:25:59.182 pre-orders are going to be like. 00:25:59.842 --> 00:26:00.952 Beta testers. 00:26:00.952 --> 00:26:03.082 And they're going to kind of be like founding customers. 00:26:03.292 --> 00:26:06.592 So they get to be, they could have like private slack channel access 00:26:06.592 --> 00:26:10.992 to us and they get to be involved in the product roadmap and figuring 00:26:10.992 --> 00:26:14.472 out like what we build and what, how it ends up integrating with rails 00:26:14.472 --> 00:26:16.092 applications and all that stuff. 00:26:16.422 --> 00:26:18.462 So, um, yeah, 00:26:19.351 --> 00:26:20.011 Michele: Oh, interesting. 00:26:20.431 --> 00:26:23.341 I remember, um, you know, Jesse Hanley from bento. 00:26:23.341 --> 00:26:24.121 I think he's still. 00:26:24.774 --> 00:26:28.755 I don't know if all of his customers or a subset of them, but I certainly a lot 00:26:28.755 --> 00:26:31.725 of them get access to a discord with him. 00:26:32.535 --> 00:26:35.355 Like just as like a regular thing. 00:26:36.345 --> 00:26:37.965 People seem to really like that. 00:26:38.025 --> 00:26:41.535 I mean, I guess you're kind of risking that you're going to get at all hours. 00:26:41.535 --> 00:26:44.385 So I don't know how he manages that but that might be an 00:26:44.385 --> 00:26:45.615 interesting thing to ask him. 00:26:45.786 --> 00:26:46.206 Colleen: Yeah. 00:26:46.296 --> 00:26:49.236 I mean, we're, we have such a, with five people, I think it'll be fine. 00:26:49.236 --> 00:26:51.096 And maybe we'll do that on the Laravel of Alside too. 00:26:51.096 --> 00:26:55.435 I got to ask, what he wants to do, because we do have to balance like all 00:26:55.435 --> 00:26:58.608 the inquiries um, against our time. 00:26:58.638 --> 00:27:04.398 But I think at this early stages, like pushing those one-on-one interactions is 00:27:04.398 --> 00:27:07.368 really what's going to move the product forward and we can, you know, figure 00:27:07.368 --> 00:27:09.678 out exactly what people need build that. 00:27:10.176 --> 00:27:12.876 Michele: I think, we talked about how the list you felt like it was actually, 00:27:12.876 --> 00:27:20.053 it was like the developers who are not actually the end by, of the product. 00:27:20.053 --> 00:27:23.796 And so I'm curious, like, how are you going to, and maybe we're getting too in 00:27:23.796 --> 00:27:26.826 the weeds for this conversation today, but like, how are you going to get to the 00:27:26.826 --> 00:27:29.136 people who would actually be the buyers? 00:27:29.218 --> 00:27:30.448 Colleen: I'm not sure yet. 00:27:30.508 --> 00:27:33.118 I think we'll just start reaching out to these people one by one. 00:27:33.168 --> 00:27:35.328 Once we get them on the phone, like that's the question you asked? 00:27:36.030 --> 00:27:37.350 Can you, can you, make this decision? 00:27:37.380 --> 00:27:38.370 Can you buy this? 00:27:38.610 --> 00:27:40.620 Like, who is the person who would make this decision? 00:27:40.620 --> 00:27:42.030 Like who is your end user? 00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:44.550 Um, cause we have two real use cases. 00:27:44.550 --> 00:27:49.240 We have the use case where you have, kind of, we talked about it a little 00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:52.210 bit on the pod next, last week, where you have the developer who implements 00:27:52.210 --> 00:27:56.080 it and they're trying to allow their marketing team to build reports. 00:27:56.110 --> 00:28:00.400 That's when use case, which is a completely different use case from like 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:02.470 my real estate clients where it's forward. 00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:02.920 It's user. 00:28:03.668 --> 00:28:09.128 So for them refine is so their users can come in and filter on properties. 00:28:09.630 --> 00:28:10.860 Michele: Oh, interesting. 00:28:11.508 --> 00:28:12.318 You have real estate 00:28:12.345 --> 00:28:16.095 Colleen: my client, so my consulting client is a real estate company 00:28:16.395 --> 00:28:20.968 and we have like uh, they have, a really poor, like fuzzy search 00:28:20.968 --> 00:28:22.678 situation that just did not work. 00:28:22.978 --> 00:28:25.888 And so refined is perfect for them because users come in and they're like, 00:28:25.888 --> 00:28:30.868 I want a three bedroom house and, you know, Mechanicsville, Pennsylvania 00:28:31.168 --> 00:28:32.968 that was listed within the past week. 00:28:33.058 --> 00:28:35.248 That is literally the perfect use case for refine. 00:28:35.748 --> 00:28:38.568 Michele: You know, it's funny as a, we have a lot of customers who are also 00:28:38.568 --> 00:28:41.601 real estate companies, like you know, searching for apartments or houses or 00:28:41.601 --> 00:28:47.631 whatever, wouldn't it be so awesome if like there happens to be a real estate 00:28:48.856 --> 00:28:52.036 website that uses both geocoding and 00:28:52.278 --> 00:28:52.858 Colleen: Yeah. 00:28:53.358 --> 00:28:53.751 Michele: That would be 00:28:53.873 --> 00:28:54.383 Colleen: Yeah. 00:28:54.863 --> 00:28:57.563 Honestly, Now that I'm telling you this, I'm like maybe we're 00:28:57.743 --> 00:28:59.123 reaching out to the wrong people. 00:28:59.626 --> 00:29:02.356 Maybe we shouldn't be, I mean, developers, maybe that's they, 00:29:02.806 --> 00:29:07.036 maybe we need to like focus on niche markets, like real estate company. 00:29:07.741 --> 00:29:08.011 Michele: Yeah. 00:29:08.011 --> 00:29:09.391 I mean, if they've found it difficult to 00:29:09.743 --> 00:29:10.353 Colleen: Oh, yeah. 00:29:11.003 --> 00:29:12.023 Michele: Maybe a 00:29:12.349 --> 00:29:13.489 Colleen: That's an interesting idea. 00:29:13.993 --> 00:29:16.873 Michele: Does it, our friend, um, Chris with jet boost, doesn't 00:29:16.873 --> 00:29:20.353 he do a lot of like filtering and sorting stuff for jet boost. 00:29:20.473 --> 00:29:20.833 Right. 00:29:20.979 --> 00:29:21.819 Colleen: Yeah, I think so. 00:29:22.316 --> 00:29:23.846 Michele: I feel Like you should talk to him about this. 00:29:24.056 --> 00:29:27.246 Cause his, I mean, of course his customers are all on, sorry, they're on Webflow. 00:29:27.246 --> 00:29:29.016 They're not on jet boost deck was, is his product. 00:29:29.016 --> 00:29:29.166 right. 00:29:29.166 --> 00:29:32.106 But like adding, filtering and searching for web flow. 00:29:32.106 --> 00:29:33.126 And I was, I'm wondering if you could. 00:29:34.127 --> 00:29:38.467 If talking to him might be helpful for you in understanding like the 00:29:38.467 --> 00:29:43.140 use cases a bit in terms of like how people discover they have this problem. 00:29:43.221 --> 00:29:43.611 Like, 00:29:43.802 --> 00:29:44.522 Colleen: a great idea. 00:29:44.612 --> 00:29:45.302 I will. 00:29:45.342 --> 00:29:45.642 Um. 00:29:45.771 --> 00:29:48.044 Michele: But like it's definitely kind of similar. 00:29:48.524 --> 00:29:48.884 Yeah. 00:29:49.516 --> 00:29:50.356 Colleen: that's a great idea. 00:29:50.416 --> 00:29:51.496 I should, I should ask him. 00:29:51.796 --> 00:29:55.807 And like, now that I'm talking to you, I mean, If we want to niche down, 00:29:56.401 --> 00:29:59.221 this might be, this might be the way. 00:29:59.341 --> 00:30:00.721 This is a really interesting idea. 00:30:00.751 --> 00:30:01.681 I like this idea. 00:30:02.126 --> 00:30:02.456 Hmm. 00:30:02.906 --> 00:30:03.266 Yeah. 00:30:03.746 --> 00:30:04.106 Okay. 00:30:04.404 --> 00:30:05.154 Michele: Who's going to pay you. 00:30:05.304 --> 00:30:05.574 Right. 00:30:05.574 --> 00:30:05.724 You 00:30:05.736 --> 00:30:06.186 Colleen: Yeah. 00:30:06.246 --> 00:30:07.056 There's a plan. 00:30:07.134 --> 00:30:08.874 Michele: on demographics and 00:30:09.126 --> 00:30:09.636 Colleen: I've just, I, 00:30:09.636 --> 00:30:11.796 it was just this idea that I was like, oh, the real 00:30:12.024 --> 00:30:12.894 Michele: Talk to them. 00:30:13.386 --> 00:30:13.806 Colleen: think this is 00:30:13.909 --> 00:30:16.129 Michele: Talk to them, even though your client. 00:30:16.266 --> 00:30:16.716 Colleen: Talk to 00:30:16.819 --> 00:30:16.999 Michele: right. 00:30:16.999 --> 00:30:22.541 Well, so me for the next six months, you know, figuring out calm, 00:30:22.541 --> 00:30:26.555 sustainable growth, ish direction. 00:30:29.095 --> 00:30:30.475 That sounded better in my head. 00:30:30.475 --> 00:30:35.065 And then it came out and I was like that, that, that is not, um, no, but, you know, 00:30:35.065 --> 00:30:39.175 being, you know, just continuing to be a sustainable company, but maybe with a 00:30:39.175 --> 00:30:41.515 bit calmer from our perspective, right. 00:30:42.265 --> 00:30:45.235 Even though, as we tackle these big things, like learning how to manage 00:30:45.235 --> 00:30:50.065 and, and, you know, going through, um, SOC two audit, which is kind of a VFD. 00:30:50.665 --> 00:30:55.123 And then for you, it's, figuring out how to business, which has been the, been 00:30:55.123 --> 00:30:59.023 the thing kind of from the beginning, but now I feel like you're, you know, I feel 00:30:59.023 --> 00:31:00.253 like you're in the major leagues now. 00:31:00.283 --> 00:31:00.583 Right? 00:31:00.583 --> 00:31:03.836 Like this, this, is it time to business. 00:31:04.016 --> 00:31:06.266 You know, kind of get down to business, right? 00:31:06.296 --> 00:31:06.566 Yeah. 00:31:07.060 --> 00:31:07.480 Yeah. 00:31:07.976 --> 00:31:11.156 Well, I think that wraps us up for today. 00:31:11.663 --> 00:31:15.683 And also, so, I mean, this is our hundredth episode and it's still our 101. 00:31:17.198 --> 00:31:20.858 A hundred and first I can't speak my own language anymore. 00:31:21.218 --> 00:31:30.045 Um, Episode, I am still, I just so filled with sort of a, awe and 00:31:30.045 --> 00:31:34.965 gratitude that we have all these people who listen and support our show. 00:31:35.045 --> 00:31:38.353 I mean, Yeah, it just still, still kind of blows my mind. 00:31:38.353 --> 00:31:41.183 So, we want to give a huge, thanks to all of our listeners 00:31:41.183 --> 00:31:45.383 who become software socialites and listen, and support our show. 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:49.150 Uh, You can become a supporter for $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year 00:31:49.150 --> 00:31:51.760 at software social.dev/supporters. 00:31:52.275 --> 00:31:57.195 Our supporters are Chris from chipper CI, the daringly handsome Kevin Griffin, Mike 00:31:57.195 --> 00:32:03.315 from gently used domains, Dave from re cut, max of online or not, Stefan from talk 00:32:03.315 --> 00:32:05.655 to Stefan, Brendan Andre of bright bits, 00:32:05.715 --> 00:32:10.725 Aaron from Tupelo, Alex Hilman from the tiny MBA, Ramy from memo.fm, 00:32:10.755 --> 00:32:12.885 Jane and Benedikt from user list, 00:32:12.945 --> 00:32:17.585 Kendall Morgan, Ruben Gamez of signwell, Cory Haines of swipewell, 00:32:17.585 --> 00:32:19.835 Mike Wade of crowd sentury, 00:32:20.238 --> 00:32:23.958 Nate Ritter of room steals, Anna Maste of subscribed sense, 00:32:24.018 --> 00:32:28.878 Geoff Roberts from outseta, Justin Jackson from mega maker, Jack Ellis and 00:32:28.878 --> 00:32:34.338 Paul Jarvis from fathom analytics, Matthew from appointment reminder, Andrew Culver 00:32:34.338 --> 00:32:40.008 at bullet train, John Koster, Alex of corso systems, Richard from stunning, 00:32:40.128 --> 00:32:42.318 Josh, the annoyingly pragmatic founder, 00:32:42.978 --> 00:32:48.558 Ben from consent kit, John from credo and editor ninja, cam Sloan, Michael 00:32:48.558 --> 00:32:55.308 Koper of nusii proposals, Chris from URL box, Caeli of tosslet, Greg park 00:32:55.308 --> 00:33:00.768 from traitlab, Adam from rails auto-scale, Lana and Alex from recapsy, 00:33:00.768 --> 00:33:04.391 Joe Masilotti of railsdev.com, 00:33:04.721 --> 00:33:05.951 Proud mama from Opelnet, LLC, 00:33:06.986 --> 00:33:13.706 Anna from cradle, Arvid Kahl, James Sauers from castaway.fm, 00:33:13.976 --> 00:33:15.896 Nathan of develop your UX, 00:33:15.956 --> 00:33:22.286 Jessica Malnik, Damian Moore of audio audit podcast checker, Eldon from nodlestudios, 00:33:22.586 --> 00:33:25.166 and Mitchell Davis from recruit kit. 00:33:25.716 --> 00:33:30.208 Damn feeling the love, feeling the love. 00:33:30.857 --> 00:33:31.307 Yeah. 00:33:31.713 --> 00:33:32.493 Colleen: Thank you for listening. 00:33:33.097 --> 00:33:33.547 Michele: All right. 00:33:33.607 --> 00:33:34.567 Well, oh, I guess. 00:33:34.627 --> 00:33:37.657 Oh, we should probably say, I think, I think we might've one more. 00:33:37.657 --> 00:33:42.099 So, so we're coming up on this summer and Colleen and I will both be traveling 00:33:42.609 --> 00:33:44.889 and both be traveling sequentially. 00:33:44.949 --> 00:33:48.579 So I don't think we're either one of us is going to be able to 00:33:48.579 --> 00:33:50.079 like re we'll be like in this. 00:33:50.873 --> 00:33:53.393 Well, we're not gonna be the same place, but have like the ability to record 00:33:53.393 --> 00:33:55.793 together for like five weeks or something. 00:33:56.273 --> 00:34:01.823 So we're going to be doing a lot of guests over the next couple of weeks. 00:34:01.883 --> 00:34:05.467 I'm really excited about these, conversations. 00:34:05.527 --> 00:34:09.457 And I hope you guys enjoy it as well, but then Colleen and I will be back, 00:34:09.964 --> 00:34:13.324 uh, August, end of July together. 00:34:14.886 --> 00:34:16.266 Colleen: Oh, and I'll have big updates 00:34:16.334 --> 00:34:17.024 Michele: the deadline. 00:34:17.196 --> 00:34:17.916 Colleen: be exciting. 00:34:17.984 --> 00:34:20.684 Michele: of all going to be on pins and needles for the next, 00:34:21.187 --> 00:34:22.807 uh, yeah. 00:34:22.859 --> 00:34:23.459 Colleen: Twitters. 00:34:23.549 --> 00:34:24.749 I will be tweeting a lot. 00:34:25.251 --> 00:34:27.681 Michele: I hope you all Cause I, I will get the updates there too. 00:34:28.071 --> 00:34:32.811 Um, So we will regroup in August and we will find out has Colleen 00:34:32.811 --> 00:34:37.881 learned to business and has Michelle learned to manage tune in? 00:34:37.941 --> 00:34:42.011 Um, But yeah, in the meantime, having some friends come by and. 00:34:43.401 --> 00:34:44.571 I hope you'll enjoy that as well.