WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.172 --> 00:00:06.522 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Welcome back, CJ. 00:00:06.992 --> 00:00:11.302 Happy birthday to Rails 20th anniversary. 00:00:11.442 --> 00:00:14.092 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: That is a surprisingly mature framework. 00:00:14.102 --> 00:00:15.352 If I do say so myself. 00:00:15.482 --> 00:00:16.742 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: is, it's two decades. 00:00:16.772 --> 00:00:18.082 it almost can drink. 00:00:19.342 --> 00:00:19.622 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Yes. 00:00:19.653 --> 00:00:24.873 Recently I've been reflecting a lot about the future of rails and wondering 00:00:24.873 --> 00:00:29.243 about, you know, how easy it is to hire people who want to use rails. 00:00:29.243 --> 00:00:33.283 There's a few projects coming up where, it might be something that I sort of build as 00:00:33.283 --> 00:00:35.313 a microsite and hand over to someone else. 00:00:35.343 --> 00:00:40.053 And I want to use rails to do that, but I'm also like, maybe there's not 00:00:40.053 --> 00:00:41.173 going to be someone to maintain it. 00:00:41.223 --> 00:00:44.623 And I don't know, is that a concern that you've bumped into from other folks or. 00:00:44.928 --> 00:00:45.508 Thought about 00:00:45.808 --> 00:00:46.608 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: not so much. 00:00:46.608 --> 00:00:50.958 Like I think, like you said, the maintainability and like finding 00:00:50.958 --> 00:00:54.578 people who know Rails, there's like this convention that is 00:00:54.588 --> 00:00:57.268 not in most frameworks, even. 00:00:57.498 --> 00:00:57.888 net. 00:00:58.638 --> 00:01:02.118 JavaScript, things like that, where you can build your structure any way you want. 00:01:02.588 --> 00:01:06.218 So if you build it in rails, like someone who's familiar with rails 00:01:06.218 --> 00:01:07.478 is going to be able to pick it up. 00:01:07.538 --> 00:01:12.888 And I think the death of that community is very much, largely overblown. 00:01:12.888 --> 00:01:16.428 Like just because rails conf isn't going to be happening anymore. 00:01:16.438 --> 00:01:17.102 It does not mean that. 00:01:17.103 --> 00:01:20.723 That all of a sudden, all these 20 years of rails veterans are 00:01:20.723 --> 00:01:23.473 going to just disappear and they're going to switch frameworks. 00:01:23.513 --> 00:01:25.283 They're going to, they're going to go to rails world. 00:01:25.283 --> 00:01:26.783 They're going to go to Ruby comps. 00:01:26.813 --> 00:01:29.003 They're going to go to blue Ridge Ruby. 00:01:29.003 --> 00:01:31.783 They're going to go to, you know, mountain West Ruby or whatever, 00:01:31.793 --> 00:01:32.933 you know, all those different ones. 00:01:32.993 --> 00:01:35.693 I think you'll be able to find some people to support it 00:01:36.011 --> 00:01:36.431 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: totally. 00:01:36.531 --> 00:01:36.851 Yeah. 00:01:36.861 --> 00:01:41.891 I am also very optimistic and hopeful, that, the community will continue to grow. 00:01:41.891 --> 00:01:46.121 With the future of rails and with large language models, helping 00:01:46.121 --> 00:01:50.621 us write code is the power of convention over configuration. 00:01:51.021 --> 00:01:56.611 is so much stronger when you're using an LLM and you're in a framework that 00:01:56.951 --> 00:02:01.271 expects, you know, these conventions, because the predictability of 00:02:01.271 --> 00:02:05.661 the way to implement something is influenced by like all of the past art. 00:02:05.711 --> 00:02:09.021 And so being able to look at most rails apps and like. 00:02:09.541 --> 00:02:13.861 Squint your eyes a bit and see, okay, they're all roughly the same shape. 00:02:14.091 --> 00:02:18.691 And so if I want to do something that is similar than, you know, co pilot should 00:02:18.701 --> 00:02:22.651 be able to just spit out the things that you want for rails, whereas it might be 00:02:22.661 --> 00:02:27.721 much harder in other languages, especially like really bespoke new funky languages or 00:02:28.061 --> 00:02:29.501 when you're in a really funky environment. 00:02:29.586 --> 00:02:30.056 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: for sure. 00:02:31.306 --> 00:02:31.616 Yeah. 00:02:31.856 --> 00:02:32.636 I'm curious. 00:02:32.646 --> 00:02:34.826 What is your rails origin story? 00:02:34.956 --> 00:02:36.406 How did you get into rails? 00:02:37.211 --> 00:02:37.701 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: yeah. 00:02:38.421 --> 00:02:40.801 In college. 00:02:41.316 --> 00:02:49.496 I took a class about databases and it was like, go implement, or learn a 00:02:49.496 --> 00:02:53.806 bunch of different types of databases, learn about the cap theorem and how to 00:02:53.816 --> 00:02:57.406 set up relational databases, what are no SQL databases and things like that. 00:02:57.406 --> 00:03:02.946 And at the very end, the project was like, To go set up a rails application 00:03:02.966 --> 00:03:08.016 and use associations, rails associations, and try to like, just see the power 00:03:08.016 --> 00:03:10.646 of, an ORM and what it can give you. 00:03:10.646 --> 00:03:13.436 And so my first ever experience was touching it. 00:03:13.486 --> 00:03:20.716 I think probably this was probably like 2009, 2010 ish. 00:03:20.796 --> 00:03:24.796 but then I didn't really do anything serious with it until 2013. 00:03:24.866 --> 00:03:25.306 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Nice. 00:03:26.736 --> 00:03:26.996 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Yeah. 00:03:27.006 --> 00:03:27.526 What about you? 00:03:27.801 --> 00:03:31.071 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: I can't remember how I first found it because I. 00:03:31.436 --> 00:03:33.096 I was already starting to use it. 00:03:33.106 --> 00:03:38.846 So in two, let's see, in college, I was the editor of the web 00:03:38.846 --> 00:03:40.686 editor of the college newspaper. 00:03:41.386 --> 00:03:44.536 And we were using a platform called college publisher, which 00:03:44.546 --> 00:03:46.926 was like all the schools used it. 00:03:47.536 --> 00:03:50.796 And what was cool is that then college publisher would go sell ads. 00:03:51.216 --> 00:03:55.336 Against all these newspapers and then put them in the website and we would make 00:03:55.466 --> 00:03:57.236 commission make some money off of that. 00:03:57.616 --> 00:04:01.446 MTV bought College Publisher and they won. 00:04:01.446 --> 00:04:06.031 They took away all of the ad revenue from everybody And they just plastered 00:04:06.131 --> 00:04:11.671 it with MTV ads, like they thought that was their target demo, And so we decided 00:04:11.671 --> 00:04:16.741 as a newspaper to start our own software and probably not the greatest idea in 00:04:16.741 --> 00:04:21.191 the world, but we decided to build our own CMS, for publishing the newspaper. 00:04:21.261 --> 00:04:25.191 And that was when I remember, I actually wish I had it on my shelf 00:04:25.191 --> 00:04:30.091 here, but I've been and I have a stack of my first Ruby on Rails books. 00:04:30.531 --> 00:04:33.881 that, It's very timely and they're hard to give up even though they're 00:04:33.881 --> 00:04:35.811 like comically out of date now. 00:04:36.291 --> 00:04:42.011 but I remember going to RailsConf in 2007 and I don't know if it was 00:04:42.011 --> 00:04:47.471 2007 or 2008, but someone got up on stage and demoed this like Rails app 00:04:47.541 --> 00:04:52.371 wrapped around Git and letting you like create pull requests and see comments. 00:04:52.921 --> 00:04:54.991 And that was like the early version of GitHub. 00:04:55.946 --> 00:04:59.856 And it was really cool because this was like back when Y was 00:04:59.856 --> 00:05:01.196 still going to Rails confs. 00:05:01.216 --> 00:05:05.226 And there were a lot of people who I just did not know who they were. 00:05:05.226 --> 00:05:07.896 And they were not really well known at the time. 00:05:09.756 --> 00:05:10.946 So then we fast forward. 00:05:10.966 --> 00:05:15.286 I remember specifically leaving that first Rails book on an airplane. 00:05:15.451 --> 00:05:16.511 and I'm a college student. 00:05:16.511 --> 00:05:19.191 So you know, it's not insignificant to like, Oh, I got to go buy 00:05:19.191 --> 00:05:20.911 this computer book again. 00:05:20.911 --> 00:05:22.541 And so I went and bought it again. 00:05:22.541 --> 00:05:27.131 I hope someone found it and came to, to be a Rails developer 00:05:27.131 --> 00:05:28.231 after they found that book. 00:05:28.271 --> 00:05:28.951 But, yeah. 00:05:29.786 --> 00:05:32.926 We built the CMS, we ran it for two years, because I think I 00:05:32.926 --> 00:05:34.706 was like sophomore, junior year. 00:05:35.186 --> 00:05:37.846 And then we quickly realized that I'm going to graduate and 00:05:37.846 --> 00:05:39.246 no one can support this thing. 00:05:39.756 --> 00:05:44.266 And we moved to WordPress, and I left the Rails world for a little while, and went 00:05:44.276 --> 00:05:46.286 full throttle into the WordPress world. 00:05:46.836 --> 00:05:52.926 but I think since then, the newspaper's been on WordPress and still rocking. 00:05:52.996 --> 00:05:56.396 and then I've come back to Rails many times since then. 00:05:56.843 --> 00:05:58.693 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: In terms of like use cases, a 00:05:58.693 --> 00:06:00.623 newspaper is a great use case for 00:06:00.623 --> 00:06:01.043 WordPress. 00:06:01.273 --> 00:06:03.053 CMS, easy to edit, whatever. 00:06:03.173 --> 00:06:03.923 but yeah. 00:06:03.923 --> 00:06:04.183 Wow. 00:06:04.183 --> 00:06:07.213 So you've been in the, in and around rails for a super long time. 00:06:07.213 --> 00:06:07.613 That's so 00:06:07.898 --> 00:06:09.028 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Yeah, it feels like a long time. 00:06:09.028 --> 00:06:11.148 I know that we used to have a Reno RB group. 00:06:11.208 --> 00:06:15.738 I know that I think maybe even Twitter helped me get into Rails, just because 00:06:15.738 --> 00:06:18.338 I think it was built on Rails in the early days, or at least Ruby. 00:06:18.338 --> 00:06:20.968 And so it was the known quantity. 00:06:20.968 --> 00:06:24.298 And I No, that I was on Twitter pretty early. 00:06:24.298 --> 00:06:26.048 I don't know when those all intersected. 00:06:26.378 --> 00:06:29.598 It's like I could have ended up in Django and my path would be very different. 00:06:29.708 --> 00:06:33.318 Or like I found with WordPress, it was just that you're not likely 00:06:33.318 --> 00:06:36.658 to find a programmer who's going to be running the newspaper versus 00:06:36.668 --> 00:06:40.028 someone who can do WordPress plugins and themes and stuff like that. 00:06:40.058 --> 00:06:41.408 So just made sense. 00:06:42.868 --> 00:06:45.078 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: I remember one of the first startup weekends. 00:06:45.088 --> 00:06:49.238 I don't know if you remember the year that startup weekends was kicked off 00:06:49.358 --> 00:06:52.168 in Reno, but, we did the hackathon. 00:06:52.388 --> 00:06:57.408 and then I remember being at the collective, like working on our 00:06:57.408 --> 00:06:59.008 startup after startup weekend. 00:06:59.078 --> 00:07:03.458 And there was a Reno RB talk that night at the collective. 00:07:03.498 --> 00:07:05.588 And this was like back when we were in the upstairs 00:07:05.678 --> 00:07:06.498 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: The clubhouse. 00:07:07.408 --> 00:07:10.188 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: yeah, clubhouse, like locations, many locations ago. 00:07:10.578 --> 00:07:12.828 And someone gave a talk on Capybara. 00:07:13.203 --> 00:07:17.773 And also like just, I think it was, yeah, just like different test frameworks that 00:07:17.773 --> 00:07:19.633 they were using and having success with. 00:07:20.063 --> 00:07:22.713 So it's probably 2010, 11 ish. 00:07:23.133 --> 00:07:27.093 And I remember thinking, Whoa, like Ruby is such a cool thing. 00:07:27.093 --> 00:07:30.943 And we were building like our startup weekend hackathon tool with net. 00:07:31.343 --> 00:07:33.833 And I was like, Yeah. 00:07:33.883 --> 00:07:36.983 I was like embarrassed that we were using like a corporate, you know, not the 00:07:36.983 --> 00:07:39.393 cool, hot new frameworks, that Ruby was. 00:07:39.453 --> 00:07:42.013 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Yeah, it was a golden era, I think, for 00:07:42.233 --> 00:07:44.043 software and like the internet. 00:07:44.653 --> 00:07:46.713 Just like people building things for fun. 00:07:46.993 --> 00:07:52.713 I feel like some of that is coming back around I think like less AI pendant 00:07:52.723 --> 00:07:56.033 startups I don't think we need more of those in the world as much as we need 00:07:56.033 --> 00:08:01.073 these like fun little internet toys and Things that you just do for fun and I 00:08:01.073 --> 00:08:06.608 think Yeah, we'll see where that comes, but like 2008, 2012, like that four year 00:08:06.608 --> 00:08:12.388 period was just like such a golden era for frameworks and tools built all on rails 00:08:12.388 --> 00:08:16.258 or built, you know, tangentially, or, you know, things like node knockout node 00:08:16.258 --> 00:08:18.318 was starting to come up around then too. 00:08:18.948 --> 00:08:21.478 so yeah, happy birthday to rails. 00:08:22.548 --> 00:08:22.808 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Yeah. 00:08:22.938 --> 00:08:23.488 Very cool. 00:08:23.588 --> 00:08:24.078 Very cool. 00:08:26.058 --> 00:08:29.238 I wanted to just like chat a little bit about reading and writing 00:08:29.238 --> 00:08:31.908 cultures and what your experience was with them and what I've seen. 00:08:32.388 --> 00:08:36.958 this sort of started because there's a few cultural habits and things that 00:08:37.058 --> 00:08:40.888 I picked up from Stripe that I really like, and that I'm trying to bring over 00:08:40.918 --> 00:08:45.618 to craftwork, the latest of which being a decision document where you work 00:08:45.618 --> 00:08:50.488 together in written word on a shared Google doc to try to come to a decision. 00:08:51.458 --> 00:08:55.348 I remember when I first started at Stripe being insanely intimidated by how much 00:08:55.358 --> 00:08:57.068 reading and how much writing there was. 00:08:57.598 --> 00:09:00.148 Many things if you wanted to get them done, the way that you 00:09:00.148 --> 00:09:01.948 did that was by writing a doc. 00:09:02.583 --> 00:09:05.833 A lot of stuff doesn't really happen without, support and 00:09:05.833 --> 00:09:07.323 stakeholder buy in and whatever. 00:09:07.323 --> 00:09:09.433 And when you're at a small company, you can just make a 00:09:09.433 --> 00:09:10.743 comment and then it happens. 00:09:11.123 --> 00:09:13.643 Whereas at a bigger company, you need a little bit more organization. 00:09:13.643 --> 00:09:17.683 And so by writing a doc, you can get stakeholder buy in and iterate on the 00:09:17.693 --> 00:09:20.243 thinking behind the doc and other things. 00:09:20.243 --> 00:09:24.103 But I do remember thinking, wow, this is a ton of reading. 00:09:24.163 --> 00:09:28.243 And like the first month of Stripe, I probably read more than I had, 00:09:28.243 --> 00:09:31.722 like in the previous several years combined, just, pouring over, whether 00:09:31.722 --> 00:09:36.419 it was like onboarding or new, Teams would publish newsletters on a weekly 00:09:36.419 --> 00:09:37.859 cadence of here's what we met about. 00:09:37.859 --> 00:09:38.909 Here's the progress we made. 00:09:38.909 --> 00:09:39.619 Here's where we're at. 00:09:39.629 --> 00:09:40.939 Here's what we're thinking for the future. 00:09:40.959 --> 00:09:41.669 Here's what's next. 00:09:42.129 --> 00:09:45.629 there were so many different cultural things around reading and writing. 00:09:45.629 --> 00:09:46.099 And I don't know. 00:09:46.099 --> 00:09:48.139 I think it's a interesting to learn from. 00:09:48.139 --> 00:09:52.439 And I'm curious, like in your, in your career so far, would you say 00:09:52.439 --> 00:09:55.699 that the companies that you've worked with and for have had a really 00:09:55.699 --> 00:09:57.689 strong reading and writing culture? 00:09:57.689 --> 00:09:58.999 And what does that look like for you? 00:09:59.964 --> 00:10:02.044 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Yeah, I think the last couple of companies, 00:10:02.044 --> 00:10:05.784 especially with the advent of notion, I know like when I worked with 00:10:05.784 --> 00:10:08.174 Strava, they use Dropbox paper a lot. 00:10:08.554 --> 00:10:10.304 it was just docs and docs. 00:10:10.354 --> 00:10:13.944 at Orbit, we had a pretty heavy notion culture because it was 00:10:13.944 --> 00:10:15.434 so both reading and writing. 00:10:16.014 --> 00:10:21.914 Because we were distributed from San Francisco all the way to East Europe. 00:10:21.934 --> 00:10:26.884 Especially I think with the async nature of work to be able to, again, like outline 00:10:26.884 --> 00:10:31.144 all the things, get stakeholder buy in, also get any sorts of side effects that 00:10:31.144 --> 00:10:36.394 maybe you didn't think about that someone else has experience with things like that. 00:10:36.434 --> 00:10:42.694 and at discord, we do things like, PRDs for product review, RFCs for technical 00:10:42.704 --> 00:10:44.594 things before we write any code. 00:10:45.034 --> 00:10:46.164 it's definitely interesting. 00:10:46.304 --> 00:10:49.794 And it's funny that When we talk a little bit later about what we're working on, 00:10:50.384 --> 00:10:54.514 there is that, like how much meta work do you do versus doing the work, but 00:10:54.524 --> 00:10:58.424 in bigger companies, you can't just ship it without any consideration for 00:10:58.424 --> 00:11:04.744 what it's going to do to the user, to the team, to how a lot of people expect 00:11:04.744 --> 00:11:06.714 things to work today, things like that. 00:11:06.714 --> 00:11:10.824 So I think it does help to fully flesh things out and then pump the 00:11:10.824 --> 00:11:13.714 brakes a little bit and just make sure that you thought through things. 00:11:14.219 --> 00:11:14.659 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: totally. 00:11:14.689 --> 00:11:19.789 It sounds like, uh, Amazon's working backwards culture seems 00:11:19.789 --> 00:11:23.339 pretty powerful to where they I think they write the press release. 00:11:23.359 --> 00:11:26.969 I didn't know about the fact document, but like writing a press release of 00:11:26.969 --> 00:11:31.669 what the new product will be announced, like how it will be announced and then 00:11:31.669 --> 00:11:34.299 writing a frequently asked questions document that kind of helps you think 00:11:34.309 --> 00:11:37.099 about what people ask about that. 00:11:37.554 --> 00:11:38.244 is interesting. 00:11:38.814 --> 00:11:44.424 Another thing that I've heard of Amazon doing on the dev side is like starting 00:11:44.424 --> 00:11:48.634 with an API design document or like almost starting with an open API spec. 00:11:48.974 --> 00:11:52.174 I think they use something else called Swifty or something, but, starting 00:11:52.174 --> 00:11:56.624 with that open API spec, writing the examples, writing, here's the 00:11:56.624 --> 00:11:59.074 arguments that go in, here's the response you're going to get back. 00:11:59.589 --> 00:12:02.979 And then using that as a sort of guiding document. 00:12:03.469 --> 00:12:06.129 both are examples of working backwards, but, yeah, I don't know. 00:12:06.149 --> 00:12:08.549 Both of those sort of seem useful. 00:12:10.029 --> 00:12:10.349 I don't know. 00:12:10.699 --> 00:12:14.069 Sometimes it can be tricky and feel a little bit fake to try to write a press 00:12:14.069 --> 00:12:16.139 release, like before you know the product. 00:12:16.659 --> 00:12:19.381 it's almost you're doing a, Oh, gosh. 00:12:19.381 --> 00:12:19.951 What is it like? 00:12:19.951 --> 00:12:22.511 Sometimes in an interview, you'll do role playing or they're like, okay, now 00:12:22.511 --> 00:12:25.271 I'm going to be the customer and you're going to be the salesperson or whatever. 00:12:25.271 --> 00:12:26.291 try to sell me on this thing. 00:12:26.301 --> 00:12:28.071 It's okay, this feels a little bit cheesy 00:12:28.106 --> 00:12:28.816 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Sell me this 00:12:28.921 --> 00:12:29.171 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: right? 00:12:30.191 --> 00:12:31.121 Yeah, exactly. 00:12:31.191 --> 00:12:31.851 Exactly. 00:12:31.956 --> 00:12:34.546 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: like the FAQ document though, because it's putting 00:12:34.546 --> 00:12:36.626 yourself in the shoes of the customer. 00:12:37.296 --> 00:12:41.496 And even if it like, say it's something we're working on, if you 00:12:41.536 --> 00:12:45.256 can't write a press release about it, should you be building it? 00:12:45.296 --> 00:12:48.166 Is it going to improve the customer experience? 00:12:48.166 --> 00:12:50.066 Is it going to improve some bottom line? 00:12:50.066 --> 00:12:52.416 Is it going to, is it going to move the needle at all? 00:12:52.601 --> 00:12:57.141 If you really can't write that post, there's probably some reflection to do. 00:12:57.721 --> 00:13:01.311 when we build things and we announce them, we write these posts in our 00:13:01.461 --> 00:13:03.501 Discord developer server called DDevs. 00:13:04.041 --> 00:13:07.361 And we almost always write a changelog thing. 00:13:07.361 --> 00:13:09.371 And most of the time, it gets written afterwards. 00:13:09.961 --> 00:13:13.081 but I have this saying that I don't know where I picked up. 00:13:13.121 --> 00:13:15.841 I'm sure it's from somewhere where it's begin with the end in mind. 00:13:16.531 --> 00:13:21.771 And it's very similar to working backwards in the Amazon way, but I have taken to 00:13:21.771 --> 00:13:27.971 like writing the docs first or once I see a PRD or an RFC, I think okay, and this 00:13:27.971 --> 00:13:31.671 is like for developer products, but this could be the same for what is the, what 00:13:31.672 --> 00:13:33.021 does the instruction manual look like? 00:13:33.021 --> 00:13:34.601 What does the user update look like? 00:13:34.601 --> 00:13:35.401 Whatever it might be. 00:13:35.831 --> 00:13:38.581 And just writing the docs first, because then. 00:13:39.216 --> 00:13:42.206 If you try to explain someone how they're going to use it or how it's 00:13:42.206 --> 00:13:45.706 going to affect them, you're going to anticipate the questions that they have. 00:13:45.716 --> 00:13:47.246 You're going to put yourself in their shoes. 00:13:47.766 --> 00:13:48.446 what about this? 00:13:48.446 --> 00:13:49.126 And what about this? 00:13:49.126 --> 00:13:52.196 And that way you're not like, announce the thing and then be 00:13:52.206 --> 00:13:54.126 inundated with reactive comms. 00:13:54.126 --> 00:13:57.096 And you guys didn't think about this or, you know, what other things are 00:13:57.096 --> 00:13:59.846 you going to put out that you know, are half baked or something like that. 00:14:02.086 --> 00:14:05.646 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: you think that, being a documentarian or being 00:14:05.646 --> 00:14:09.146 a docs writer becomes harder when. 00:14:09.601 --> 00:14:14.021 You might not have the same developer experience, like not having like actually 00:14:14.031 --> 00:14:16.411 built the, build stuff in the past. 00:14:16.411 --> 00:14:19.411 Like I could imagine it being really hard to be that thoughtful and 00:14:19.541 --> 00:14:23.861 anticipating someone's questions if I hadn't used a rest API, but I'm 00:14:23.861 --> 00:14:25.301 trying to write the docs for rest API. 00:14:25.302 --> 00:14:26.681 I 00:14:26.776 --> 00:14:28.476 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: that's, there's like lots of layers there 00:14:28.476 --> 00:14:31.416 because like it depends on what the rest of the API is even doing, right? 00:14:31.416 --> 00:14:36.836 if you've never implemented subscriptions in Stripe, do you know the gotchas? 00:14:36.846 --> 00:14:39.356 Do you know the things you have to consider and like dunning 00:14:39.366 --> 00:14:41.466 periods and failed cards? 00:14:41.466 --> 00:14:45.646 And the API design is probably not going to show you all those things because those 00:14:45.646 --> 00:14:47.296 are like things that happen in real life. 00:14:47.826 --> 00:14:51.766 I like to think of it almost like TDD where like writing the docs first is 00:14:51.796 --> 00:14:56.166 the test first and maybe it's, you're literally writing tests first or, 00:14:56.546 --> 00:15:01.356 instead of an API design, I think just writing in pure words and like painting 00:15:01.356 --> 00:15:03.826 a picture of what the dream state is. 00:15:04.226 --> 00:15:08.166 I do think it gets into that meta work of Oh, we have to move fast 00:15:08.186 --> 00:15:09.546 and we can't get the dream state. 00:15:09.546 --> 00:15:10.856 So what does half look like? 00:15:10.856 --> 00:15:13.396 And it's would you write a press release for half of this thing? 00:15:13.466 --> 00:15:16.806 are you going to be triumphantly celebrating this thing if 00:15:16.806 --> 00:15:20.586 it's only half, or is it only celebratory if it's fully finished? 00:15:21.706 --> 00:15:22.986 so I think it's important. 00:15:22.986 --> 00:15:23.256 I think. 00:15:23.446 --> 00:15:27.726 what you're calling out is just like making it inherent in the culture that 00:15:27.726 --> 00:15:32.096 this is something we do here versus Colin does this and CJ does this, but 00:15:32.096 --> 00:15:33.816 everyone else is doing their own thing. 00:15:34.336 --> 00:15:37.016 you know, what does that culture look like and how can you build that? 00:15:37.256 --> 00:15:40.716 You mentioned a few other things like five 15s meeting notes. 00:15:40.876 --> 00:15:43.256 How do all those kind of roll up into this? 00:15:45.026 --> 00:15:47.696 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: think there are also, other cultural things like, 00:15:47.706 --> 00:15:51.746 okay, if we have a meeting coming up cause there's a Google calendar event 00:15:51.756 --> 00:15:56.136 for it, then in the description of the calendar event, there's a link to a doc. 00:15:56.576 --> 00:16:00.186 It's expected that you've read the doc before left comments and we've 00:16:00.196 --> 00:16:04.736 had like a thoughtful discussion and we have everything out on the table, 00:16:05.246 --> 00:16:08.976 before we actually meet and then once we meet, there's also like notes of 00:16:08.976 --> 00:16:10.326 who said what during the meeting. 00:16:10.861 --> 00:16:14.241 With action items at the bottom, and you've you've gone in with a clear, 00:16:14.361 --> 00:16:18.681 agenda of what you want to, brainstorm or make a decision about or whatever. 00:16:18.731 --> 00:16:21.521 and then you come out of the meeting with clear, next steps and 00:16:21.571 --> 00:16:25.591 who's owning what and, you know, or deeper connection, in some way, 00:16:25.611 --> 00:16:27.471 deeper collaboration in some way. 00:16:27.981 --> 00:16:31.981 So that like meeting notes is another one where I'm that I am trying to bring 00:16:32.391 --> 00:16:36.521 to the crew like, all right, before we meet, let's always have an agenda that 00:16:36.531 --> 00:16:40.491 has like several things on it when we meet, we'll go over those things after 00:16:40.491 --> 00:16:44.641 we meet there's action items and there's, you know, things that are everyone 00:16:44.641 --> 00:16:46.331 at the meeting can take away from it. 00:16:46.731 --> 00:16:50.031 so that becomes also like a living artifact of What was the decision 00:16:50.031 --> 00:16:52.641 that was made and why, and what were like some of the thoughts that 00:16:52.721 --> 00:16:55.761 were behind it and why, we do have a lot of documentation in notion. 00:16:55.771 --> 00:16:58.471 That's just you know, company documentation about like holidays 00:16:58.471 --> 00:17:03.451 and, you know, how do you book a trip and how do you, I don't know, like 00:17:03.461 --> 00:17:06.951 basic stuff in notion, but, yeah, that's also really valuable though. 00:17:07.001 --> 00:17:08.871 having consistency. 00:17:09.396 --> 00:17:14.156 And, I don't know, just standard processes about how things work and 00:17:14.156 --> 00:17:18.726 should work and, maybe like documenting processes too, in Notion is valuable. 00:17:18.776 --> 00:17:20.496 I don't know, another one that comes to mind too is readme. 00:17:20.496 --> 00:17:24.586 in your GitHub, readme for your project, does it have all the 00:17:24.586 --> 00:17:25.836 instructions to get set up? 00:17:25.986 --> 00:17:27.926 Does it have all the instructions for, like, how to use the 00:17:27.926 --> 00:17:29.056 tools that are inside of that? 00:17:29.456 --> 00:17:31.446 Code base and, and so on. 00:17:31.446 --> 00:17:34.216 So yeah, lots of little different writing artifacts. 00:17:34.216 --> 00:17:36.746 I've been trying to rack my brain about, it's been a while, but like 00:17:36.746 --> 00:17:40.016 just other things that, that I really liked from Stripe even before 00:17:40.016 --> 00:17:41.476 that, I think my VR had a pretty. 00:17:42.786 --> 00:17:45.496 like more of a deck heavy culture where it was like, okay, 00:17:45.496 --> 00:17:46.166 we're going to have a meeting. 00:17:46.166 --> 00:17:49.176 So let's put together a Google slides presentation. 00:17:49.226 --> 00:17:51.416 Everyone's like responsible for a slide and you have to go in 00:17:51.416 --> 00:17:53.916 and add bullets about X, Y, or Z. 00:17:54.076 --> 00:17:55.556 so yeah, there's definitely like different ways to 00:17:55.556 --> 00:17:56.676 do it, but 00:17:56.726 --> 00:17:57.976 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: the deck one is interesting. 00:17:57.976 --> 00:18:02.846 Like we have multiple teams and multiple all hands and to be honest Like I would 00:18:02.846 --> 00:18:07.926 prefer a bulleted pre read and then if there's stuff to show and deck and all 00:18:07.926 --> 00:18:11.006 that stuff Like that's one thing but if the all hands is the first time ever 00:18:11.006 --> 00:18:16.716 hearing about it Like I don't Yet no questions I have and during these usually 00:18:16.716 --> 00:18:18.666 we have questions in a separate session. 00:18:19.166 --> 00:18:24.196 so there is time for that, but I do enjoy like the pre reads ahead of time. 00:18:24.216 --> 00:18:27.576 So you're not like coming into a meeting and everyone only has, you know, some 00:18:27.576 --> 00:18:30.936 people are coming in late and some people can't make it and some people on PTO 00:18:30.946 --> 00:18:35.886 and in bigger companies like having both the pre read and the post read means 00:18:35.886 --> 00:18:39.866 that if you missed it, you can just read that and you can comment on async. 00:18:40.276 --> 00:18:41.226 If you. 00:18:41.826 --> 00:18:44.566 And I think that creates a healthier culture than, you know, a lot of 00:18:44.566 --> 00:18:47.716 people say Oh, if you're not in the office, you're probably not, you 00:18:47.716 --> 00:18:49.036 know, as connected to your team. 00:18:49.036 --> 00:18:50.386 And you're probably not going to get promoted. 00:18:50.866 --> 00:18:53.666 It's that's because you've got a really in person culture. 00:18:53.726 --> 00:18:55.466 And if you missed it, you missed it. 00:18:55.966 --> 00:18:57.146 And no one's taking notes. 00:18:57.156 --> 00:19:01.616 Cause I think there's like that, even in boards and stuff for like nonprofits. 00:19:01.616 --> 00:19:05.436 And so it feels like the secretary seems to be the job that nobody wants. 00:19:05.636 --> 00:19:06.236 And. 00:19:06.471 --> 00:19:09.801 Sometimes it's a literal role and sometimes it rotates between all the 00:19:09.801 --> 00:19:13.911 board members of who's writing the minutes or the notes for the meeting 00:19:14.371 --> 00:19:19.611 and That feels like something AI could solve a little bit like let's just have 00:19:20.081 --> 00:19:25.281 once this is good enough Have it write the notes for us We have an AI that does 00:19:25.291 --> 00:19:28.801 this and it also pulls out the action items and who talked and who did what? 00:19:30.011 --> 00:19:31.501 So that's super nice 00:19:32.456 --> 00:19:33.396 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Which one are you using? 00:19:33.871 --> 00:19:37.376 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: It's homegrown It's only, it's like internal, like 00:19:37.386 --> 00:19:39.806 only inside of our like team discords. 00:19:39.816 --> 00:19:40.066 Yeah. 00:19:41.326 --> 00:19:41.746 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: that's cool. 00:19:41.756 --> 00:19:45.486 I just recently tried tactic with a Q out. 00:19:45.576 --> 00:19:48.586 there's a few that I'm just like bouncing between just experimenting and trying 00:19:48.586 --> 00:19:50.766 to see Which is the least intrusive? 00:19:50.816 --> 00:19:54.116 Because I find that like when there have been a couple that I've tried 00:19:54.116 --> 00:19:57.186 that join the Google, like the Google Meet call or the Zoom call, 00:19:57.186 --> 00:19:58.466 it joins as like a separate person. 00:19:58.466 --> 00:20:00.876 It's who is this creepy like other person? 00:20:00.896 --> 00:20:03.536 And there's others that are much less intrusive where it's like a Google Chrome 00:20:03.536 --> 00:20:05.426 extension that just happens to be there. 00:20:05.427 --> 00:20:07.051 Oh, 00:20:07.116 --> 00:20:08.226 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: you want other people on the 00:20:08.226 --> 00:20:09.556 call to know that's happening. 00:20:09.556 --> 00:20:11.406 Like these are all internal calls. 00:20:11.406 --> 00:20:14.006 So we all, and they joined the discord. 00:20:14.016 --> 00:20:16.016 So like this bot joins the discord. 00:20:16.576 --> 00:20:17.536 We are discord. 00:20:17.536 --> 00:20:18.326 So we can. 00:20:18.631 --> 00:20:23.721 Record the audio, send it over, you know, and I think because we home built it, it's 00:20:23.721 --> 00:20:27.601 not like we're sending all of our private meetings off to open AI or whatever. 00:20:27.651 --> 00:20:32.141 and then it afterwards creates a notion doc with all the notes. 00:20:32.591 --> 00:20:36.741 It has some fun flair where it then takes all the people who are in there 00:20:36.741 --> 00:20:41.411 and based on their behaviors creates a screen play based on how people 00:20:41.411 --> 00:20:43.331 were like acting in the meeting. 00:20:43.881 --> 00:20:48.401 they're like, this person, in the theme of, Deadpool, and this person was 00:20:48.401 --> 00:20:52.941 Deadpool, this person was Wolverine, and yeah, it's just really, it's very much 00:20:52.941 --> 00:20:56.521 like, when it works, it's pretty funny, and then above that, it has the action 00:20:56.521 --> 00:20:58.261 items and the actual meeting notes. 00:20:59.451 --> 00:20:59.831 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Nice. 00:20:59.881 --> 00:21:00.381 I like that. 00:21:00.411 --> 00:21:01.491 It's like adding, yeah. 00:21:01.491 --> 00:21:02.971 Adding a little bit of a RIS to 00:21:02.971 --> 00:21:03.841 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Little whimsy. 00:21:03.841 --> 00:21:04.301 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: the culture. 00:21:04.691 --> 00:21:05.031 Yeah. 00:21:05.721 --> 00:21:10.151 the last thing that I wanted to mention too, before we move on, is that like one 00:21:10.161 --> 00:21:16.531 of the behaviors that I recognize from some of the like higher level engineers 00:21:16.651 --> 00:21:21.051 that I worked with, at Stripe, it's like L4, L5 at other places, I think 00:21:21.051 --> 00:21:27.091 they would be considered like L6, L7 is that they send internal newsletters. 00:21:27.431 --> 00:21:31.591 So whether, whatever meetings happen, maybe you like take the meeting notes 00:21:31.591 --> 00:21:34.611 and you send an email after with just to the people who were at that meeting, 00:21:34.611 --> 00:21:37.171 or maybe to the teams that were at that meeting about here's what we talked about. 00:21:37.181 --> 00:21:38.071 And here's what we're going to do. 00:21:38.641 --> 00:21:42.911 and then the really like high functioning folks would take, those meeting notes. 00:21:43.641 --> 00:21:48.111 And, maybe over the course of a month, synthesize all of those 00:21:48.141 --> 00:21:51.771 and then publish an internal only newsletter that would be sent to a 00:21:51.771 --> 00:21:53.171 Google group that anybody could join. 00:21:53.761 --> 00:21:56.381 and that gave them a lot of visibility. 00:21:56.611 --> 00:21:59.601 And it also was like a way to just like brag about their team. 00:21:59.601 --> 00:22:01.031 So it like elevated their team. 00:22:01.041 --> 00:22:04.431 And yeah, if you're out there and you're you know, mid level and you want to 00:22:05.581 --> 00:22:08.891 get promoted, I think this is a pretty effective way to Get discovered is to 00:22:08.891 --> 00:22:13.061 write an internal newsletter that is, you know, bragging about your own team. 00:22:13.311 --> 00:22:13.761 So 00:22:14.126 --> 00:22:14.346 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Yeah. 00:22:14.346 --> 00:22:17.626 I don't think I think in startups you don't see as much of this type 00:22:17.626 --> 00:22:20.746 of culture and stuff cause they're small and they got to move fast. 00:22:20.756 --> 00:22:24.866 But there's this habit of when you're, whether you're fundraising or 00:22:24.866 --> 00:22:28.796 bootstrapping or whatever you're doing, usually it's given as investor advice, 00:22:28.806 --> 00:22:32.376 which is everyone you're meeting and talking to you ask if they can, if you 00:22:32.376 --> 00:22:36.236 can put them on your newsletter, or say Hey, do you want to get updates? 00:22:36.696 --> 00:22:38.006 You're not asking for money. 00:22:38.176 --> 00:22:39.696 Like you say, Hey, I want to have coffee. 00:22:39.696 --> 00:22:43.116 I want to, you know, give you a pitch, but maybe you're asking for advice. 00:22:43.466 --> 00:22:45.976 Similarly, if you want money, ask for advice. 00:22:46.386 --> 00:22:49.396 If you want advice, ask for money type of situation. 00:22:49.396 --> 00:22:52.216 So ask if you can be like, Hey, maybe it's not the right time for you. 00:22:52.686 --> 00:22:53.656 Can I put you on updates? 00:22:53.666 --> 00:22:56.931 If you're bootstrapping, it's also valuable because then when you're. 00:22:57.311 --> 00:22:59.431 Putting out updates on Oh, I'm trying to do this thing. 00:22:59.431 --> 00:23:01.251 I'm trying to hire, I'm trying to do whatever. 00:23:01.251 --> 00:23:05.831 Like you now have this list that you can use when you do a beta, when 00:23:05.831 --> 00:23:08.681 you do a Kickstarter, when you do whatever, you now have this following 00:23:08.681 --> 00:23:11.391 and maybe it's Twitter, maybe it's email, whatever that might be. 00:23:11.711 --> 00:23:14.451 but it's more like building public that you can control and 00:23:14.451 --> 00:23:15.961 creates a list and a following. 00:23:15.961 --> 00:23:18.961 And, I've been talking to somebody who's trying to start a coworking 00:23:18.961 --> 00:23:22.811 space and I'm like, you can't open on day one with no customers. 00:23:22.931 --> 00:23:25.351 you need to have pre sold this place. 00:23:25.381 --> 00:23:31.061 people need to be having pre committed to the first three months and you open full, 00:23:31.111 --> 00:23:35.381 do not maybe half full, but I see posts of Oh, I'm starting a business and I have 00:23:35.381 --> 00:23:38.871 no customers on day one and I've spent two years coding and no one's ever seen it. 00:23:39.371 --> 00:23:42.221 or coworking space opens and it's three months in and we 00:23:42.221 --> 00:23:43.401 haven't had a single tour. 00:23:43.401 --> 00:23:46.551 This is where you got to write down and talk about what you're working on. 00:23:46.901 --> 00:23:48.291 and I think all of this helps, right? 00:23:48.291 --> 00:23:51.121 There's these internal newsletters, external newsletters. 00:23:51.511 --> 00:23:55.471 If you're a one person team, create your own little council that you're talking to 00:23:55.471 --> 00:23:58.101 and documenting and getting feedback from. 00:23:59.426 --> 00:24:00.466 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: I love that idea. 00:24:00.466 --> 00:24:01.226 I'm going to steal that. 00:24:01.236 --> 00:24:04.286 The like investor updates, but like to 00:24:04.481 --> 00:24:04.811 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Yeah. 00:24:05.186 --> 00:24:07.766 I want the, the board of the personal board of directors, right? 00:24:08.436 --> 00:24:08.966 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: yes. 00:24:09.106 --> 00:24:09.456 Yeah. 00:24:09.596 --> 00:24:10.176 So good. 00:24:10.196 --> 00:24:10.786 So good. 00:24:11.596 --> 00:24:11.996 cool. 00:24:12.176 --> 00:24:13.126 What are you building? 00:24:13.156 --> 00:24:14.196 What are you working on these days? 00:24:14.196 --> 00:24:14.606 Colin? 00:24:14.706 --> 00:24:17.386 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Yeah, this one kind of follows up with this, but 00:24:17.436 --> 00:24:21.766 I hit a point yesterday where I was like, I just need to start writing. 00:24:21.886 --> 00:24:25.506 so I'm working on a big docs project again, and I realized that I was 00:24:25.506 --> 00:24:29.116 like getting caught up in answering questions and in some cases, 00:24:29.116 --> 00:24:32.036 like verifying that some of these things work the way that they do. 00:24:32.466 --> 00:24:35.986 I was doing a little bit of reorganizing Asana tickets and then I spent like an 00:24:35.986 --> 00:24:40.126 hour in Asana and I was like okay that was an hour that I did not get actual 00:24:40.126 --> 00:24:44.136 work done like the meta work sometimes is the work when you're like delegating 00:24:44.136 --> 00:24:48.596 and having a team but like I'm the one who's going to be writing these docs so 00:24:48.616 --> 00:24:54.341 I like closed everything put myself in do not disturb and just Turned on some good 00:24:54.341 --> 00:24:59.341 music and just started writing and I got like Surprisingly like a good skeleton 00:24:59.341 --> 00:25:04.281 and everything built out And like I think I was telling myself like let's get this 00:25:04.281 --> 00:25:08.431 done by the in two weeks from now And I think I'm gonna get done like tomorrow 00:25:08.821 --> 00:25:12.731 Which will be at least like a first draft so that then the team can go read it 00:25:13.226 --> 00:25:17.796 And a lot of it in what we just talked about is stuff that has not shipped yet. 00:25:18.206 --> 00:25:22.356 And so I want to document and point out like this doesn't work the way 00:25:22.356 --> 00:25:27.046 we think it does, or we're missing something or Hey, like this thing 00:25:27.046 --> 00:25:30.196 that we're doing is going to like by the time this episode comes out, 00:25:30.206 --> 00:25:31.456 hopefully all of this will have shipped. 00:25:31.456 --> 00:25:37.016 So I can talk about it, but like some of it is Hey, this breaking change does 00:25:37.036 --> 00:25:38.856 affect people more than we think it will. 00:25:38.856 --> 00:25:42.196 And this is the guide that they're going to have to follow to, to do that upgrade. 00:25:43.246 --> 00:25:43.696 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Nice. 00:25:44.386 --> 00:25:47.916 It's exciting when you like get a big chunk of work done that you 00:25:47.916 --> 00:25:50.856 didn't, that you thought might take longer, but, yeah, it worked out to 00:25:50.856 --> 00:25:51.646 be much, 00:25:51.866 --> 00:25:53.706 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: I've got all the raw material already. 00:25:53.706 --> 00:25:57.336 It's just it's easy to feel like you're being productive by moving it around 00:25:57.826 --> 00:26:02.486 and it's no, like we need to turn this into gold now and do the work. 00:26:03.616 --> 00:26:04.106 How about you? 00:26:04.216 --> 00:26:04.696 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Totally. 00:26:05.616 --> 00:26:06.386 Oh gosh. 00:26:06.486 --> 00:26:11.156 doing a big refactor, changing a bunch of things from enums to models still. 00:26:11.206 --> 00:26:16.806 And, yeah, anyone who's done that knows that there is, it's like a three PR 00:26:16.806 --> 00:26:21.226 process at least to make the new field, migrate all the data from the old field 00:26:21.226 --> 00:26:24.296 to the new field, deprecate the old field. 00:26:24.901 --> 00:26:27.751 make sure you're not using the old field, update all the tests and 00:26:27.751 --> 00:26:31.831 then remove the old field, drop the column and then move on from there. 00:26:31.851 --> 00:26:38.191 and we've got I think we ended up touching like 20 different models and like of 00:26:38.191 --> 00:26:40.531 those lots and lots of different stuff. 00:26:40.531 --> 00:26:41.401 very close, but, 00:26:41.901 --> 00:26:43.781 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Are you doing that model by model, 00:26:43.791 --> 00:26:45.161 like three PRS per model? 00:26:45.161 --> 00:26:49.921 Or are you doing one giant, make all the new columns across all the 00:26:49.921 --> 00:26:52.221 models and then migrate all the data? 00:26:53.161 --> 00:26:54.871 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: It's a little bit of both. 00:26:54.941 --> 00:27:00.441 I did like a big group together at once and then updated like the 00:27:00.461 --> 00:27:02.091 integration points for all of those. 00:27:02.401 --> 00:27:04.841 And now I'm doing another big group and then I'm doing, I'll 00:27:04.851 --> 00:27:06.171 be able to do the last big group, 00:27:06.181 --> 00:27:09.681 but yeah, it's, it was interesting trying to think through how to attack it. 00:27:09.691 --> 00:27:13.351 Cause depending on where you start, it can end up being like, 00:27:13.721 --> 00:27:15.271 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: This code's dependent on this code. 00:27:16.231 --> 00:27:16.941 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: exactly. 00:27:16.981 --> 00:27:17.461 Yeah. 00:27:17.511 --> 00:27:20.231 The first in the first time I went through, it was like. 00:27:21.201 --> 00:27:24.921 It was actually like seven or eight PRS that were all, you know, a couple 00:27:24.921 --> 00:27:26.501 of hundred lines here and there. 00:27:26.841 --> 00:27:30.031 And then the second time I did it, I was like, Oh, I think I could do more. 00:27:30.051 --> 00:27:31.771 Let me just bite off, like a whole big chunk. 00:27:32.141 --> 00:27:36.641 And so that PR was like 1500 lines or something and touched a hundred files. 00:27:36.691 --> 00:27:39.371 And there was like two or three bugs that fell out of it. 00:27:39.391 --> 00:27:43.791 And so that one was like, obviously a little bit more cowboy ish. 00:27:43.841 --> 00:27:45.991 But, yeah, I think just, yeah. 00:27:46.981 --> 00:27:47.201 Yeah. 00:27:47.251 --> 00:27:47.621 doing it in 00:27:47.621 --> 00:27:48.071 chunks. 00:27:48.091 --> 00:27:48.861 So we're almost there. 00:27:48.901 --> 00:27:51.011 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: I'm sure the first one taught you how to do the 00:27:51.011 --> 00:27:53.441 next one in a slightly different way. 00:27:54.811 --> 00:27:55.211 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Yeah. 00:27:55.991 --> 00:27:58.851 There's a lot of, so have you ever used the strong migrations Okay. 00:27:58.901 --> 00:27:59.171 Yeah. 00:27:59.171 --> 00:28:03.141 So the, I'm like pretty new to it, but what's nice about it is like, 00:28:03.971 --> 00:28:07.141 It helps avoid these like foot guns of okay, I'm dropping a column. 00:28:07.141 --> 00:28:10.261 And then I'm trying to use that data from that column to populate a new column or 00:28:10.261 --> 00:28:11.531 something, or I'm renaming something. 00:28:11.531 --> 00:28:14.411 And it, when you try to run the migration, it's oh, actually 00:28:14.451 --> 00:28:15.721 you should do this in two steps. 00:28:15.761 --> 00:28:17.081 And here's the steps that you should do. 00:28:17.081 --> 00:28:19.601 And first you should add a check constraint in one migration. 00:28:19.601 --> 00:28:22.531 And then in another migration, different transaction or whatever, 00:28:22.581 --> 00:28:27.611 You check the check constraint, change the nullability of the column, and 00:28:27.611 --> 00:28:28.881 then re add the check constraint. 00:28:28.881 --> 00:28:32.551 And so it makes it so that you have less downtime instead of 00:28:32.551 --> 00:28:34.026 just being like, All right. 00:28:34.026 --> 00:28:34.776 I'm deploying now. 00:28:34.776 --> 00:28:35.656 Everyone hold on. 00:28:36.641 --> 00:28:39.801 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Insert the hold on to your butts gif right here 00:28:40.096 --> 00:28:40.956 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Yeah, exactly. 00:28:40.966 --> 00:28:41.426 Yeah. 00:28:41.636 --> 00:28:44.956 You get like a flood of errors from production that like are just 00:28:44.986 --> 00:28:46.826 transient do it like mid deploy or 00:28:46.826 --> 00:28:47.306 whatever. 00:28:47.676 --> 00:28:51.386 So yeah, I think we definitely had a handful, but I tried 00:28:51.386 --> 00:28:53.126 my best to minimize like the 00:28:53.426 --> 00:28:54.496 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Yeah, I know I've used it. 00:28:54.496 --> 00:28:59.066 I don't know under the hood how it works, but I, it reminds me a lot of 00:28:59.066 --> 00:29:06.236 like terraform plan versus apply where it's let's do a dry run of this and 00:29:06.236 --> 00:29:09.636 see if there's anything that we didn't think about or like how long would 00:29:09.636 --> 00:29:14.246 it simulated, like how long would it take simulation like wise so that we 00:29:14.246 --> 00:29:16.236 can plan around downtime or whatever. 00:29:16.856 --> 00:29:18.996 but if, have you used terraform at all? 00:29:20.056 --> 00:29:20.326 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: just a 00:29:20.326 --> 00:29:20.826 little bit. 00:29:20.926 --> 00:29:22.956 yeah, just experimenting for some striped 00:29:22.956 --> 00:29:23.806 content, but 00:29:24.026 --> 00:29:26.986 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Yeah, when it works, it's you feel so powerful. 00:29:27.026 --> 00:29:29.276 Like you're just like, all right, I'm planning this thing and we're 00:29:29.276 --> 00:29:32.136 creating all these services and all these boxes and all these databases. 00:29:32.606 --> 00:29:35.856 And you're just like, terraform it up, terraform it down. 00:29:35.976 --> 00:29:36.826 it's very nice. 00:29:37.826 --> 00:29:38.486 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: That's so cool. 00:29:38.486 --> 00:29:41.046 I, yeah, I do remember feeling you know, when you like grab the little 00:29:41.046 --> 00:29:44.846 scale, auto scale bar and you're like, all right, let's auto scale 00:29:44.846 --> 00:29:46.566 this thing up to 10 boxes or whatever. 00:29:46.796 --> 00:29:49.436 It's so funny because you feel so powerful. 00:29:49.496 --> 00:29:50.646 And also I don't know. 00:29:50.646 --> 00:29:54.936 I it, because when I was doing this in the past, I was the one 00:29:54.936 --> 00:29:56.586 paying for the Heroku boxes. 00:29:56.826 --> 00:29:59.556 It always made me nervous to be like, all right, we're gonna scale this up to 00:29:59.556 --> 00:30:01.986 20, You know, 20 workers right now to chew through 00:30:02.121 --> 00:30:04.081 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: just thrown money into a fire. 00:30:04.986 --> 00:30:05.916 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: yes, exactly. 00:30:05.921 --> 00:30:09.346 Terraform is gasoline to the money fire that is like AWS 00:30:09.501 --> 00:30:09.941 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Yeah. 00:30:10.771 --> 00:30:14.461 I'm sure that there are still startups, but there was one called cloudability. 00:30:14.491 --> 00:30:18.051 They probably are still around that manages your, watches your cloud spend 00:30:18.051 --> 00:30:22.111 and like detects anomalies, which I feel like in an AI world and all this, 00:30:22.151 --> 00:30:25.481 it should be so much easier, like just send all your cloud watch logs to 00:30:26.161 --> 00:30:30.501 something and be like, do you tell me if we see a spike in price or like this 00:30:30.501 --> 00:30:34.961 box is running and no traffic's going to it and you know, all that stuff. 00:30:34.961 --> 00:30:36.201 So cool. 00:30:36.536 --> 00:30:38.726 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: along those lines, I like totally got saved the 00:30:38.726 --> 00:30:40.676 other day by open AI's spend limit. 00:30:41.056 --> 00:30:45.046 I think I put my platform limit at 20 bucks and I wrote a background 00:30:45.046 --> 00:30:49.556 job or I kicked off a background job to re summarize all of my articles. 00:30:49.616 --> 00:30:52.026 And, And all the podcast episodes or 00:30:52.026 --> 00:30:56.436 something, and it went through and while it was doing it, there was like a bug and 00:30:56.446 --> 00:31:00.606 sidekick was just retrying the job over and over and over until I spent 20 bucks. 00:31:01.116 --> 00:31:05.766 I was like, oops, like I just kept retrying to summarize and like 00:31:06.436 --> 00:31:08.926 when the summary came back from opening, I like wasn't going in the 00:31:08.936 --> 00:31:11.236 database because there was no field. 00:31:12.026 --> 00:31:12.416 I was like, 00:31:12.426 --> 00:31:14.246 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: They're just like, throw this data away, go get it 00:31:14.246 --> 00:31:16.186 again, throw it away, go get it again. 00:31:16.221 --> 00:31:18.841 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Yeah, try again, but yeah, there was, I 00:31:18.841 --> 00:31:21.371 don't know, I've got some videos on YouTube probably from about a year 00:31:21.371 --> 00:31:28.281 ago that was how I built my like, summarization for articles on my website. 00:31:29.666 --> 00:31:33.046 It was, it's so funny looking at it because back then the context windows 00:31:33.046 --> 00:31:35.876 were so small that I had to do this crazy chunking thing where it was 00:31:35.886 --> 00:31:39.776 like break up the entire article into 20 different chunks, summarize 00:31:39.776 --> 00:31:43.456 each of the chunks and then summarize the summaries into a new summary. 00:31:43.736 --> 00:31:46.326 And now it's just just take the entire thing, throw it at GPT four. 00:31:46.346 --> 00:31:48.356 And it gives you a beautiful summary. 00:31:48.366 --> 00:31:50.436 That's a thousand times better than what we had before. 00:31:50.656 --> 00:31:51.236 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Amazing. 00:31:52.786 --> 00:31:53.866 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: yeah, crazy 00:31:54.206 --> 00:31:54.786 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Yep. 00:31:55.216 --> 00:31:58.696 On the learning front, I'm very excited about the book you're reading, but I'll 00:31:58.696 --> 00:32:01.136 quickly tease mine because I just got it. 00:32:01.246 --> 00:32:02.706 I have not started reading it yet. 00:32:03.196 --> 00:32:08.306 I'm blaming Aaron Francis and, more Ian Landsman for this one, but I use 00:32:08.406 --> 00:32:11.186 Obsidian in the most messiest books. 00:32:12.016 --> 00:32:12.946 inconsistent way. 00:32:13.546 --> 00:32:17.976 And he has been running into this, trying to find the perfect 00:32:18.006 --> 00:32:20.606 notes, obsidian sinking situation. 00:32:20.996 --> 00:32:22.716 And he keeps mentioning the Paris system. 00:32:22.716 --> 00:32:25.156 So I picked up the Paris system book. 00:32:25.706 --> 00:32:29.636 I don't really want to do this like whole second brain, huge, like repository 00:32:29.636 --> 00:32:33.106 I have to keep up, but I want to add some sort of structure and I have 00:32:33.106 --> 00:32:35.056 not successfully stuck to something. 00:32:35.086 --> 00:32:40.896 So this area, the Paris stands for like project area responsibility, and then 00:32:41.196 --> 00:32:42.716 It's something else for the last A. 00:32:43.126 --> 00:32:47.416 and we'll talk about it more in the future episode I think once I get through it. 00:32:48.416 --> 00:32:51.066 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: I also want to read this and I'm just now 00:32:51.066 --> 00:32:53.346 starting to get curious enough that I think I'm going to start one. 00:32:53.796 --> 00:32:55.726 Mike just showed me he's using log sack. 00:32:55.746 --> 00:32:58.766 I think, other people that I've seen use obsidian. 00:32:59.286 --> 00:33:03.476 And I was noticing that I have been taking notes that have nothing to do 00:33:03.476 --> 00:33:08.016 with work, but are like stuff about life, like people that we run into or 00:33:08.206 --> 00:33:11.636 like parents of our kids, friends that I want to be like thoughtful about. 00:33:11.636 --> 00:33:15.286 those interactions or networking and, maybe we have stuff going on with the 00:33:15.286 --> 00:33:18.546 rental property or whatever, like just things that are happening, vacation, 00:33:18.566 --> 00:33:20.966 whatever, like stuff that's happening that I want to take notes about that 00:33:20.966 --> 00:33:24.666 I want to be linked together and right now I'm literally just sending myself 00:33:24.926 --> 00:33:25.086 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: yeah. 00:33:25.086 --> 00:33:26.376 We gotta upgrade that game. 00:33:27.351 --> 00:33:27.851 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: I know. 00:33:27.851 --> 00:33:28.191 Yeah. 00:33:28.191 --> 00:33:32.471 And so I, part of it for me though, is that it has to be easy to 00:33:32.491 --> 00:33:34.451 update on mobile and on a desktop. 00:33:35.171 --> 00:33:36.471 and so I don't know. 00:33:37.641 --> 00:33:39.381 Yeah, maybe let's like do 00:33:39.381 --> 00:33:39.471 an 00:33:39.636 --> 00:33:42.456 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: do an episode on, second braining for sure. 00:33:42.581 --> 00:33:43.751 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: yes, yeah. 00:33:43.881 --> 00:33:45.101 definitely worth digging into. 00:33:45.121 --> 00:33:46.661 I was actually going to ask you right before we started 00:33:46.661 --> 00:33:47.781 about a second brand. 00:33:47.911 --> 00:33:49.101 I didn't know that Paris system was 00:33:49.311 --> 00:33:51.741 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: It's one of the many, one of the many that are out there. 00:33:51.761 --> 00:33:54.751 So I'm not sure if I'll stick to it, but I've also gone down the rabbit 00:33:54.761 --> 00:33:59.491 hole of Asana and notion and people use their notion to organize their 00:33:59.501 --> 00:34:03.351 life and have all these like trackers and notes and stuff like that. 00:34:03.771 --> 00:34:06.771 And I've paid for a few of them to see like how their templates work 00:34:06.771 --> 00:34:08.541 and how that, and it becomes this. 00:34:09.131 --> 00:34:12.881 meta work again of maintaining and grooming your notion. 00:34:12.941 --> 00:34:14.871 I need a system that can get out of my way. 00:34:14.971 --> 00:34:18.331 but, yeah, I think, what book are you reading? 00:34:18.451 --> 00:34:22.851 And I'm curious how far you are because it's one of my favorite books. 00:34:23.821 --> 00:34:24.471 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Oh, really? 00:34:24.511 --> 00:34:24.851 Okay. 00:34:24.851 --> 00:34:25.171 Yeah. 00:34:25.171 --> 00:34:29.391 So I just finished this book called unreasonable hospitality. 00:34:29.896 --> 00:34:31.296 it is amazing. 00:34:31.466 --> 00:34:32.406 Mike recommended it. 00:34:32.406 --> 00:34:35.146 We're actually reading it as like a book club, like a company book club. 00:34:35.836 --> 00:34:36.956 And, yeah. 00:34:37.616 --> 00:34:40.186 So what was your introduction to this or like, how did you 00:34:40.571 --> 00:34:44.291 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: So I found it, Somewhat through co working so like 00:34:44.311 --> 00:34:47.721 I guess it shouldn't be surprising but like hospitality I mean co working and 00:34:47.731 --> 00:34:52.341 hospitality is like the new buzzword right now Where everyone went from like we are 00:34:52.361 --> 00:34:56.091 community instead of just office space and then now it's like really focused on 00:34:56.091 --> 00:35:00.161 hospitality Which I think is swinging too far in another direction where they're 00:35:00.161 --> 00:35:05.041 like, you need to have baristas and like these 4, 000 espresso machines on site. 00:35:05.061 --> 00:35:08.221 And it's I know none of you are making enough money to afford this. 00:35:08.231 --> 00:35:10.551 So it's just throwing good after bad, I think. 00:35:12.081 --> 00:35:15.231 Similar to restaurants, though, you have such low margins. 00:35:15.231 --> 00:35:19.421 And what I love about this book is it comes from one of the founders of 11 00:35:19.421 --> 00:35:22.036 Madison Park, which is on my website. 00:35:22.266 --> 00:35:24.136 bucket list of restaurants to go to. 00:35:24.596 --> 00:35:29.096 just this idea of someone expects one thing, but then you do one thing times 00:35:29.096 --> 00:35:32.706 a hundred, and you didn't need to, and you're not charging for it, you 00:35:32.716 --> 00:35:34.986 did it to bring surprise and delight. 00:35:35.366 --> 00:35:37.966 and yeah, I just think like some of the stories that they 00:35:37.966 --> 00:35:39.506 do are like, so over the top. 00:35:39.521 --> 00:35:40.931 But also so amazing. 00:35:41.501 --> 00:35:45.771 so I think it makes a lot of sense for you and, you know, in the team to be 00:35:45.791 --> 00:35:50.491 doing this, cause there's a lot there where people don't expect little moments 00:35:50.491 --> 00:35:54.231 of surprise and delight when interacting with somebody across the text message 00:35:54.231 --> 00:35:58.491 or, you know, checking into an Airbnb or, you know, any of those steps along the 00:35:58.491 --> 00:36:00.211 way are opportunities for that surprise. 00:36:01.421 --> 00:36:01.871 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Totally. 00:36:02.261 --> 00:36:06.151 the book is all about how to form authentic human connection with. 00:36:06.781 --> 00:36:10.431 The people that you're serving and that, by doing so you will 00:36:10.451 --> 00:36:12.621 see outside unexpected returns. 00:36:13.161 --> 00:36:17.791 And, so the, there are so many really fun examples throughout 00:36:17.791 --> 00:36:21.011 the book that they give about, just insane stuff that they do. 00:36:21.061 --> 00:36:25.241 you know, one example might be if someone is sitting down to dinner 00:36:25.241 --> 00:36:28.071 and they mentioned that they have to get up midway to go feed the meter. 00:36:28.436 --> 00:36:30.576 they'll just ask Oh, what does your car look like? 00:36:30.576 --> 00:36:31.236 And where'd you park? 00:36:31.306 --> 00:36:32.686 And then they'll take care of it. 00:36:32.686 --> 00:36:35.656 They're just like, go out, feed the meter for you so that you don't have to get 00:36:35.656 --> 00:36:38.146 up and go and little things like that. 00:36:38.166 --> 00:36:42.976 Also, you know, someone mentions that it's their birthday to the reservationist the 00:36:42.976 --> 00:36:47.286 day before, then when you come in, they've already like Googled your name, they know 00:36:47.286 --> 00:36:50.546 what you look like and they can welcome you by name and say happy birthday, 00:36:50.546 --> 00:36:53.626 welcome, and bring you in, take your coat. 00:36:54.216 --> 00:36:56.336 You sit down, have your dinner. 00:36:56.366 --> 00:36:59.266 And then after your dinner, they already know which coat is yours through all 00:36:59.266 --> 00:37:00.566 these different like little systems 00:37:00.566 --> 00:37:03.046 that they've built to scale their like hospitality. 00:37:03.576 --> 00:37:06.846 and yeah, I think it's, it was really inspiring. 00:37:06.846 --> 00:37:09.776 And also there's this, role at the company that they've created 00:37:09.776 --> 00:37:12.536 called a dream weaver, which is like a person who is responsible for 00:37:12.536 --> 00:37:17.566 building these ad hoc one off magical moments or like moments of delight. 00:37:18.406 --> 00:37:22.766 There was a couple of people that I worked with at Stripe, Edwin and SMCA 00:37:22.806 --> 00:37:28.816 Sam, who would go on Twitter and people would post about like their experience 00:37:28.816 --> 00:37:31.906 with Stripe and they would come up with these like crazy over the top things. 00:37:31.906 --> 00:37:34.856 And so like Chris Oliver, they sent him like this massive, 00:37:34.876 --> 00:37:36.436 like one of those giant checks. 00:37:36.456 --> 00:37:39.206 Cause he like made a joke about you know, what if the Stripe API had 00:37:39.206 --> 00:37:40.516 like this giant check thing and. 00:37:41.661 --> 00:37:44.861 Other people, they sent you know, little, there was one that I think 00:37:44.891 --> 00:37:47.171 it was like a skateboard shop or something, and they sent them like 00:37:47.481 --> 00:37:51.441 a skateboard, like a little finger skateboard deck with like their own logos. 00:37:51.441 --> 00:37:56.911 And, yeah, just like really interesting ways to, be unreasonable about how 00:37:56.911 --> 00:38:00.011 you serve your customers and how you like show up for them individually. 00:38:00.491 --> 00:38:02.031 and just build that authentic connection, 00:38:02.331 --> 00:38:04.341 which I think really goes a long way. 00:38:04.651 --> 00:38:07.011 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: there was a little bit of this like movement with 00:38:07.011 --> 00:38:11.501 delivering happiness from Tony Hsieh and Zappos because they're, they also 00:38:11.501 --> 00:38:14.811 believed very much in this and it was funny because someone at the collective 00:38:14.811 --> 00:38:17.871 was like, that, that, I just read the book and there's no way that would happen. 00:38:17.871 --> 00:38:22.131 And, somehow this was in the earlier days of Twitter when you could tweet 00:38:22.161 --> 00:38:25.411 and actually cut through some of the noise, but I think he tweeted at, 00:38:25.911 --> 00:38:31.671 Zappos and GaryVee That like, I bet they won't send us a pizza and they 00:38:31.671 --> 00:38:33.981 both sent pizzas to the collective. 00:38:34.351 --> 00:38:37.821 And the funny thing was like Gary V sent a local pizza place. 00:38:38.581 --> 00:38:43.071 Someone from Gary V's team probably found a local place and sent a pizza and 00:38:43.071 --> 00:38:48.271 Zappos sent like Domino's, but we got two pizzas and, It was interesting because 00:38:48.271 --> 00:38:51.711 like we were not necessarily customers of either of them, but it was that, 00:38:51.721 --> 00:38:55.451 that, I think that was really popular and in vogue at the time of doing things 00:38:55.451 --> 00:38:56.801 that people don't expect and all that. 00:38:56.801 --> 00:39:00.361 But I think the important thing is that like they truly care about doing it. 00:39:00.741 --> 00:39:04.241 When I see it happening and some of the coworking and stuff, it's Oh, 00:39:04.241 --> 00:39:08.771 our, we got a building and we threw Ikea in it and no one's showing up. 00:39:08.781 --> 00:39:12.691 So now we're going to, Community wash and say, Oh, but we're so focused on 00:39:12.691 --> 00:39:14.931 community and they don't really mean it. 00:39:15.091 --> 00:39:17.701 And so then community was like, Oh, community didn't work. 00:39:17.701 --> 00:39:19.221 So now let's do hospitality. 00:39:19.221 --> 00:39:21.491 And it's almost like hospitality washing. 00:39:21.491 --> 00:39:23.541 It's okay, how can you, how is that possible? 00:39:23.541 --> 00:39:27.241 Like you're still offering this amazing experience, but like you can tell that 00:39:27.241 --> 00:39:30.731 they, with this dream weaver role and every little interaction, like they have 00:39:30.741 --> 00:39:35.701 baseball signs to be able to tell people things, when it's time to refill water, 00:39:35.701 --> 00:39:36.871 instead of yelling across the street. 00:39:36.871 --> 00:39:40.791 The space or having someone even have to ask for water that they're just, 00:39:41.181 --> 00:39:44.951 they're anticipating, or like we talked about earlier, like what their needs are 00:39:45.561 --> 00:39:48.121 versus doing it to make another dollar. 00:39:48.131 --> 00:39:50.241 Like they know this is going to cost them. 00:39:50.661 --> 00:39:53.391 But when you're thinking about where am I going to go to dinner for a 00:39:53.391 --> 00:39:57.521 celebration, a big moment in my life, like the meter one is a good example. 00:39:57.531 --> 00:40:01.441 The people are spending 500 a person on dinner to have to go 00:40:01.441 --> 00:40:03.321 out and put money in the meter. 00:40:03.456 --> 00:40:05.816 Seems like a mismatch of the experience. 00:40:05.826 --> 00:40:07.376 So that is a simple thing. 00:40:07.386 --> 00:40:08.726 The pizza one I really loved. 00:40:08.726 --> 00:40:12.016 We're like, we're in New York and we never got to have New York pizza. 00:40:12.066 --> 00:40:15.396 So they like send out someone, they get pizza, bring it to the chef. 00:40:15.406 --> 00:40:19.086 The chef like does it up a little bit, doesn't change it too much, but does 00:40:19.096 --> 00:40:22.536 fancy presentation and they're like, you know, here's your full dinner. 00:40:22.536 --> 00:40:25.076 But then also we wanted to really make sure you had some 00:40:25.076 --> 00:40:26.406 New York pizza before you left. 00:40:27.521 --> 00:40:29.561 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Both Colin and I have read it and remembered, 00:40:29.681 --> 00:40:33.751 several stories, but the book is just jam packed with like dozens and 00:40:33.751 --> 00:40:36.771 dozens of different stories of like how they delighted their customers. 00:40:36.771 --> 00:40:39.121 So I think it's a great way to get inspired too, if this is 00:40:39.131 --> 00:40:41.851 something that interests you about Oh, how could I do that for my. 00:40:42.456 --> 00:40:43.526 Whatever, fill in the blank 00:40:43.526 --> 00:40:43.936 business, 00:40:44.236 --> 00:40:45.666 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: And it doesn't have to cost money either. 00:40:45.676 --> 00:40:48.646 Like I think some of those are expensive options, but they 00:40:48.646 --> 00:40:50.076 have high ticket customers. 00:40:50.086 --> 00:40:56.506 So like even little thoughts like, you know, in our case when members come 00:40:56.506 --> 00:41:01.096 in, like we could just say hi, but like taking that extra time, like when we 00:41:01.096 --> 00:41:05.466 do tours, I do look people up and if, especially if they're software people, 00:41:05.476 --> 00:41:09.446 cause I don't think they expect us to know who or what their companies are. 00:41:09.446 --> 00:41:14.141 And it's if we know what the company is, if, It helps because I'm in software, 00:41:14.141 --> 00:41:17.731 so I know these companies like it, it just goes a little bit further and I 00:41:17.741 --> 00:41:22.931 guarantee nine times out of 10 we end up getting that member more than if they 00:41:22.931 --> 00:41:26.151 went to some other place and they're like, didn't even have a greeting at 00:41:26.151 --> 00:41:29.971 the door and there's no one there to even figure out what the next step is. 00:41:30.371 --> 00:41:32.771 You could just meet this, the anticipation, but 00:41:32.771 --> 00:41:33.961 you're going that next step. 00:41:34.411 --> 00:41:35.581 And it could be an email. 00:41:35.581 --> 00:41:36.611 It could be a phone call. 00:41:36.611 --> 00:41:40.391 It could just be like remembering something about somebody and 00:41:40.401 --> 00:41:43.931 bringing it back around and having them be heard or seen. 00:41:44.391 --> 00:41:49.211 it doesn't have to be these huge, grandiose, things that cost money. 00:41:50.331 --> 00:41:50.711 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Yep. 00:41:50.881 --> 00:41:51.321 Totally. 00:41:52.651 --> 00:41:53.031 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Cool. 00:41:53.181 --> 00:41:53.931 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: highly recommend. 00:41:54.531 --> 00:41:54.691 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Yeah. 00:41:54.691 --> 00:41:56.941 We'll put some links for sure for that one. 00:41:56.991 --> 00:42:00.251 and the Paris system we'll do the build and learn book club, the Paris system. 00:42:01.691 --> 00:42:02.111 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: nice. 00:42:02.211 --> 00:42:03.131 Yeah, let's do it. 00:42:03.731 --> 00:42:03.991 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: Very 00:42:04.141 --> 00:42:05.501 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: You can head over to build and learn. 00:42:05.501 --> 00:42:11.411 dev to check out those links and resources and transcripts and 00:42:11.421 --> 00:42:12.671 all the notes from this episode. 00:42:12.701 --> 00:42:15.021 Thank you so much for listening and hanging out. 00:42:15.481 --> 00:42:16.091 colin_1_08-01-2024_100949: We'll see you next time. 00:42:18.001 --> 00:42:18.491 cj_1_08-01-2024_130949: Bye friends.