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Hi, Joe.
Welcome to the
Honest Money Show.
How are you?
Thank you
for having me.
Yeah, I'm very good.
Thank you.
It's a real pleasure.
Earlier on this year,
you released a video
that went viral, and,
It's such a pleasure
to have you on.
I really like
how you presented
the idea
that you've
put forward.
So for the listeners,
it is,
the video is called
What's the Problem?
And I guess
I want to start
with that.
So over to you, Joe.
Let's,
let's talk about this
problem.
Okay.
Well, I mean,
the problem is that
a big red
button exists,
and that big red
button allows
the people
that have access to it
to collect money
in a variety of ways.
And so it gives them
exorbitant privilege
in, in the
financial system over
and above
everybody else,
which is
fundamentally wrong.
And it's the existence
of the flick of this
big red button
that precipitates
all the issues
that we see around
ourselves today.
And so,
you know,
the social
deterioration,
you know, from
very explicit things
to much less explicit
things are all due to
are all just
downstream consequences
of the fact
that this big
red button exists
and is abused.
And if you
remove the
big red button
and you separate
money and state,
so that nobody
can print for free,
someone else
has to work for
and you resolve all
of these issues.
And so there is nothing
more important
than fixing the money.
If you fix the money,
you fix the world.
And the video is is
it's just a story.
It just to start
an accessible story
for everybody,
whether you're a child
or an old person with,
you know,
or whether you have any
financial experience
at all, doesn't matter.
You can watch it
because it's
just a story.
And humans
understand stories
and you understand,
after 30 minutes,
the importance
of having
an incorruptible money.
And what happens
when you don't?
And what happens
when you don't is
you end up with a world
like today.
And well,
when you do have
incorruptible money,
you have
human flourishing.
And that is
what we have
in our future.
Once we do
separate money
and stay
with the matter.
Humor
I would summarize it
like that.
And if you haven't
watched the video
already, please do.
Please do watch it
and then share it
with share it
with friends.
You will understand
after 30 minutes
why Bitcoin
is so important.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I've already
shared it
with so many family
and friends
and it just a light
goes off.
And that's all that
I can hope for.
If you can just spark
that curiosity enough
for them to continue
learning about it,
I feel the
I guess
half of
the work is done right.
What I love
in the video
that you've done, Joe,
is you've really
humanized the problem,
in a way, like you've
presented this
very heavy
topic
in a very human
and empathetic way.
But I want to
talk about
because you have
a background in, in,
in finance, like
you are
from a
traditional finance,
background.
And I'm curious
to know the backstory.
Is this problem
something that you
were always aware
of throughout
your studies
in your career? No.
No, it's it's,
I mean,
I studied physics
at university,
and then
then I, at 21 joined
Goldman Sachs,
and I was there
for five years
and then five years
at other
big investment banks.
But you tend
you tend
not to learn,
get taught
about money at school
for obvious reasons.
Yeah.
If somebody has access
to a big red button
and they constantly
abuse it,
it behooves them
to not educate
the population
that they have
a big red button
and they abuse it.
And so we are not
taught at
at school
or at university,
even even if you
studied economics
and I didn't
study economics,
even if you
studied economics,
you would get
taught inflation
is good,
inflation is good,
is Keynesian economics,
which is just
total nonsense,
absolute
total nonsense.
And so we have
a population
even in the
financial sector.
He was taught
the wrong thing,
actively taught
the wrong thing,
taught to not question
the fact that a big
red button exists,
and to
actually celebrate
that the big
red button exists,
because without it
we would be
impoverished,
which is 180 degrees.
Incorrect.
And so
when you go into
into finance,
when you have
a background
and not, you're either
starting with
no knowledge
or you're starting
with the
wrong knowledge,
and then
you go into the
financial sector
and you become very,
very specialized
very quickly
because you would join.
Well, for me,
I joined an equity
derivatives desk,
but there'd be
100 different desks
in an investment
bank with very niche
focus
on a particular
type of product
within the product
suite offered
by investment banks,
which is,
you know,
layers and layers down
from the money printer.
And so you, you
learn about your,
your particular area
and you become
an expert
in your
particular area,
but not not
not the big picture.
And no one's
really questioned
the big picture
because the banks
are the beneficiaries
of the big red button.
So,
you know,
it's like that.
It's like that
saying you can't
you can't
convince somebody.
You can't get someone
to understand something
their incentivized
not to understand.
Yeah, absolutely.
And this is why
the financial sector
was also pushed
back on Bitcoin for
or tried to undermine
the credibility
of bitcoin
over the last 15 years
until they
could actually
make money out of it.
And now they
can make money
out of it.
Now it's a
legitimate asset class.
Latest first listener.
And so,
you know,
even the whole time
I was at
the investment banks,
you were very aware
of quantitative easing
because I
went through the 2008
financial crisis there,
and the banks
only survived
because of the money
printing,
because of
the backing of
the governments
and the central banks.
So the only reason
the banking
sector survived.
And so the direct
beneficiaries of this,
because of the
framework
and because
the lack of,
consideration
or understanding
or awareness of
Austrian economics
and Bitcoin,
you just treat it
just it's just normal.
It's like,
you know, you're
fish, you're
fish in water.
You don't question
the water,
you don't question
what's outside
the fishbowl.
And so it was
only after
leaving finance
when I spent
ten years there.
And, and I left,
started a quantitative
hearing company with a,
with a colleague
focused on sports.
We write
algorithms and,
and mathematical
modeling sports
and then used
real time engineering.
Even going through
that process
as an entrepreneur,
it was much more
eye opening
because you're not
you're not
within the safety
net of the investment
bank. You're yeah.
You're thrown
right to the other end.
It's like
you've gone
from being
a direct beneficiary
of the money printing.
Yes.
Being the last person
to benefit
for the money fintech,
because there's no
there's no bailouts
for the
small businesses.
There's no bailouts
for the small business
owners.
It's like
they're on
the receiving end
of all the policies
from the
from the government.
And, you know,
a great example of that
is, you know,
during Covid,
you know,
small businesses
have to close.
The big businesses
can stay open.
You know,
there's this
there's not
a single set of rules
for everybody.
And when you're a,
you know,
an entrepreneur trying
to build a business,
you're taking risks,
you're
investing capital,
you're
trying to find product
market fit,
reach, profitability,
to find customers.
You're
doing all of this
by having to do
those things yourself.
And you
become much
more aware of,
the economic backdrop
and the risks
that you are
now subjected
to that
you weren't
subject to before.
Right,
because you're further
from the
money printing.
But even then,
you have to have
enough contact points
with Bitcoin for it
to sort of stick.
And you've
probably gone
through the same thing.
And it was it,
you know,
the first time
someone tells you
about Bitcoin
it's very rare.
You go
absolutely I get it.
Yeah.
You know
because you're
either dismissive.
You're starting
from the wrong place.
You're hearing it
from the wrong person
at the wrong time.
It's not quite
relevant for you.
Yeah absolutely.
The first time
I heard about
it was 2017,
and I just dismissed it
until last year.
But yeah,
most people do.
Most people do
because it's
so you either
don't recognize
there's a problem
that needs a solution.
So the solution
comes along
and you go, so what?
Right.
And
in my case,
I actually did so
it's so funny.
I remember this today.
I watched a documentary
from two from 1996
about this problem.
So this
this problem
is not a new problem.
They've been
people talking
about it for since,
since it commenced.
And and
many politicians
have warned against it.
Many economists
have warned against it.
But I never connected
the problem
to the solution.
And that is Bitcoin
being the solution.
Until
until just recently.
And I think that gap
still exists
for many people.
Oh yeah. Absolutely.
Absolutely does.
And
you know, I
suffer from
that as well
because you like
if Bitcoin
has all
these qualities,
you know,
unless you recognize
this is shortfall
in the
existing solution,
you don't recognize
the improvement.
And so it took 2 or 3
interactions.
But it was only in 2020
that Bitcoin really
hit home for me.
And since then
I've just been
learning more
and more about it,
spending more
and more time
on more of my
time on it.
But you reached
the point
that it
sounds like
you're right,
either
already through this,
through the event
horizon of this,
or very close to
it is up once
the penny drops
sufficiently,
you realize this.
Nothing else
is important.
This is the only thing
that matters.
Yes, the only thing I
fix is ever had.
I think once you.
Realize that,
you just don't go back.
It just.
And it's
like this moment.
It's like it's
one way door
to a new world.
I realize that
you've been able
to connect the dots
in such a way
that it's
become obvious.
It's become obvious
to critical thinking,
and it's not a belief.
It's not a,
it's not
something you're
going to change
your mind on
because it's
taken rigorous,
critical thinking
to get there.
And therefore your
realization is,
hang on a minute.
Everybody's
going to figure
this out.
And once
everything's a.
Matter of time.
It's a matter of time.
And then once
everyone figures
this out,
you know,
the world changes.
But not everyone
figures it out
in one go.
You know,
you've got 8
billion people.
And this is
this is an S-curve
of of adoption.
But it's not an S-curve
of adoption with churn.
It's not it's not like,
Facebook, for example.
I mean,
I'm not picking face.
I'm just it's
the first one
that came to mind.
You know,
they probably have.
I would imagine
I'll get these numbers
horribly wrong.
Half the world's
population
have a
Facebook account.
Maybe most of them
use it.
You know,
most of them have
created a Facebook
kind of
at some point
in the past,
used it for a bit
and then churned.
And now they don't
use Facebook.
No churn with Bitcoin.
Once you get Bitcoin,
you never go back.
It becomes
you're not just
a perpetual user,
a perpetual holder.
You actively
work to drive
the network.
Yeah,
because I just wasn't.
Thinking the world
until you that
you that
help accelerate
and you build
and what tends
to happen with bitcoin
and I realize we're
just jumping
straight
to the solution
here I do
we can come back.
But there
I'm the and
you've probably
seen this yourself.
The people who
find bitcoin
tend to be
the more
motivated people
the most in client
agency.
High agency people.
Absolutely.
And what do you get
when you have higher
agency people becoming
convinced
about something?
They make stuff happen.
They build businesses,
they educate others,
they drive
adoption forward.
And that's exactly the
segment of
the population
you would want
to initially
adopt something
which has a zero
churn rate,
which eventually
is going to
consume the world
because just
happens faster.
It's like it becomes
a self-fulfilling
outcome.
Yeah.
So yeah, I've got.
I just want to comment
that. Yeah.
Good. Oh, good.
I just
I just wanted to go
back on something
you said
to just create
clarity for listeners.
So when we say
there's zero churn
rate in Bitcoin,
we're not talking
about bitcoin the asset
or the token.
We're talking about
bitcoin the protocol.
So once you
you can buy
and sell Bitcoin
and or lose
money in Bitcoin
and never
come back to it.
But what are we talking
about here
specifically
is understanding
Bitcoin the protocol.
Yes. Yeah.
So it's the
it's having the penny
drop with Bitcoin.
You never met
anyone who
has been a bitcoin
and then decided that
all this bitcoins is
not for me.
It is.
It doesn't happen.
If you knew it is.
It's a one way
it's a one way door.
And it takes just
a little bit of work
to get started
and it becomes
infectious.
It's a it's
a positive
infectious disease
risk okay.
But but
and so I like
like you said but the
but the
the the real problem
we have
is trying to get people
to understand
why it's important.
Because if
you understand
why it's important,
then you have
some motivation
to then go and do that
little bit of work
to start the
ball rolling.
But it's
like the same issue
that I had is,
you know,
you have this thing,
but you don't know
where it slots
into your worldview.
Like if I
if I bring this
new piece
of technology to you,
you think, like,
that sounds great.
Why it
why is it relevant?
Like if you
don't understand
the problem, you don't
you don't recognize
the solution.
And so the,
the, the
focus of the video
is literally just to
help everyone
understand
what's the problem
and do it in a,
in a way
that connects upfront
to us for everybody,
something that
impacts them
in their lives
because it impacts
everybody
in almost
every respect.
So
it's sort of connecting
the real outcomes
in your lives.
Back to the money
printing in a way,
which is
would be very hard
to do
the other way around.
It's very hard
to take
all of the
things we see
in our lives,
the deterioration
in all of
these different
aspects of society
and life in general,
and to reverse engineer
where those must
have come from.
That's a very
hard thing to do.
It's much easier
to run it the other way
around and say,
well, imagine
we had this
far off Ireland
and we started in
a certain place,
and then we made some
one key decision.
What does that mean?
What does that
that mean?
What does that mean?
And then you end up
with all these issues.
And then
and that is very clear.
Like we all just
came from them
when the big
red button, that's it.
You know,
and then you abstract
the entire
financial system away
just to
this big red book
that they can
just press,
because the system
is super complicated
and largely
inaccessible outside
of a small number of
people who have spent
the time
and the energy,
and typically have
a highly
academic background
so they can understand
the terminology
that deliberately
obfuscated terminology
used, etc.
try to understand
how the banking system
works.
It's not relevant
for most people.
The simple thing is
there's a big
red button.
They press it,
they print more money,
or they press it
and they change
the censorship
resistant nature
of the money.
So that's it.
Everyone can understand
that concept.
You don't
have to understand
what quantitative
easing actually is
and practice stuff
to understand
how the banking
system works.
Nothing abstract
that all away
big red button.
No one should have
a big red button. Easy.
Yeah.
And that's and that's.
Yeah, that's the video.
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Today you.
Yeah.
Let's let's start
with something
like low
hanging fruit,
something that
everyone can relate to
and that is inflation.
So in Australia
we have a cost
of living crisis.
Inflation is one
of the issues
that we're dealing
with among many.
So what can you
what can you teach us
about inflation
and how that is related
to the big red button?
It's entirely due
to the big red button.
Inflation
is not because of
some foreign dictator
or greedy businessmen
or anything like that.
It's just not.
It's because
you print money
and we all,
we all know this
deep down, right?
We've all
it we've seen.
I mean,
certainly in the UK,
I assume it's
similar in Australia.
You get taught about
World War One,
World War two,
the causes
of World War two, and,
you know,
linking that back
to hyperinflation
in Germany
in World War one.
And there's
many other instances
of hyperinflation
everywhere else
since, including
recent ones
in South America
and continue
banks around the world.
But it's just
money printing.
So less
you print, more money,
it debase the currency.
All the prices go up.
Simple as that.
If you don't
print money,
the prices go down.
And so
what is
we've been conditioned
and gaslit by
Keynesian economics
and the central banks
to consider
that inflation
is a necessity.
And so
all the central banks
around the world to say
we need to state
we need to target,
2% inflation
every year.
They started
in New Zealand.
I'm sorry.
It started
in Asia, right.
New Zealand,
the island long
for far, far away.
Yeah.
But but but they
they all justify
the choice of 2%
because everyone else
chooses 2%.
That's it.
That's that's explain
why we need
2% inflation.
And the answer is well
everyone else uses
2% targets.
Well that's not a
that's not a reason.
That's not a reason
why we need it.
Just because you all do
it doesn't make it
the correct thing.
But there's
another aspect to it
there.
They get to
measure it as well.
And so they
get to target 2%
and decide
how to measure it.
And they change
how they measure it.
So, you know,
they'll tell you it's
targeting 2%,
but it'll
actually be 3%.
But you know, it's 10%
because you feel 10%
in the shops.
It feels 10%.
Because they
when the price of stuff
goes up,
they take it
out of the
calculation basket
and they replace it
with something cheap.
And the logic
would be, well,
because the price
went up too much.
People don't buy
chicken anymore.
They buy pork.
So we replace chicken
because the price has
gone up with pork,
which didn't go
up as much,
and therefore
inflation is lower.
It's like that's not
how it works guys.
That's not
how it works.
And so it the, the,
the fact that a
we need inflation
is incorrect.
Be the way that
they measure
and report
it's corrupted.
And so it mismatches
our expectations
for it.
But let's,
let's dig into
why we don't
need inflation.
And there and also
why inflation,
why inflation exists
because of
what they do.
And so the first thing
is to think about
a scenario
where nobody could
print money.
If nobody could
print money,
there is no way
to inflate
the monetary supply.
And so
what happens over time
is that prices go down.
And this is
this is very logical,
but entirely opposite
to everyone's life
experience today.
Prices go down
because of
human action,
because people
people try to become
more productive
over time.
They try to outcompete
each other
in a free market.
And so
there's an example
in the
in the video where I,
and I,
and I should say
this, this
the presentation
is built
on the shoulders
of all
the great work done
by all the Bitcoiners
around the world
over the last ten,
15 years.
To this.
There's a section here
where the islanders
are figuring out how
to live on the island.
And this is just
Jeff Booth's
price of tomorrow,
which I would encourage
everybody to read
in two minutes.
I mean, it's
it's a horrible
compromise
and what he's written,
but it gets the key.
It gets the key,
components across.
And that's
when you have
a free market
with perfect money,
IP money,
people come in for free
prices go down
and quality goes up,
and that happens
forever.
And they have
the opposite.
We have the opposite.
We have prices going.
Up and quality
going down forever.
I need all that.
Well okay.
Well how
how have we gone from
what should be
obviously true
to something
to, to
what we see today
and perhaps
you just run
through why
this is obviously true.
If we have.
So I just give you the
same example
in the video.
You know,
you have people
washed up on an island
and a starting again
for the first
half of the day
is just trying
to survive
so that
everybody, individual
is trying to fight,
trying to
catch their own fish
for food.
They're trying to
cut down trees
for firewood
and build materials
and build their
own houses.
Super inefficient
because I'm terrible.
Fish in
it are terrible things.
But I'm all right.
Cook down trees, right?
But everybody is
is just scratching
a living, right?
Focusing on themselves.
But humans
being humans,
if they realize that
some people
are better at fishing,
some people are better
than trees
and some people
are better at building,
so they specialize.
So now they can produce
half them
twice the amount
and half the time
you increase
the amount of good
to be available
to everybody.
And now everyone
that has to
actively trade
with each other.
Because,
you know,
I only have wood,
I can't eat wood.
I need to sell them
with some fish.
And now you have
an active economy
where quantities
going up.
So prices begin to fall
and quality is going up
because we're
focusing on things
and we're better at it.
I could build,
I can create
better building
materials out of wood
than you could,
because I'm
specialized in it
and I get better at it.
Over time,
I improve my practices,
I become
more efficient,
I build better tools
so now I can increase
the quantity further,
or I can reduce
the cost of producing.
And so prices go
down, quality goes up.
And this is
just natural.
And and there's
lots of wood cutters,
lots of fishermen.
There's lots of people
building houses.
And so when you're
making a decision about
swapping
your production,
your productive output
for something else,
that decision is based
on a combination
of price and quality.
I want the highest
quality
at the lowest price.
So everyone's competing
on a combination
of the two,
which drives prices
lower on quality
higher.
This is like
basic stuff.
Like we all know
this to be true.
Like if we are up
on an island today,
this is exactly
what we.
Okay, so human action
in a free market
with perfect
money is prices
go down forever
and quality
goes up forever.
That's true.
So why the hell does
a world
not work like that?
And the world doesn't
work like that
because they
print money.
And so
if you think about
those interactions
on the island,
every interaction,
every economic
interaction
is a price signal
to everybody else.
So let's
say the
there were
two homebuilders.
I'm making it I'm
making this
making stuff now.
So imagine
there's two
homebuilders
and one of them
falls ill.
So the other one
says,
well I've got
no competition anymore
and I've put
my prices up.
And now everyone's
paying more
for the house.
That's a price signal
to the rest
of the market
that there is.
He's making
a greater level
of profitability
versus his inputs.
It's a signal
that someone else
on the island,
maybe someone else,
should become a home
builder
and go and compete
with this guy
that has
a price signal.
And so somebody stops
cutting down wood
and they go and focus
on house building.
They bring more
supply to the market.
They compete
with this guy.
They put his margins
under pressure.
They make him produce
more high
quality output.
This is free
market economics.
Right.
And so
in a free market,
the fact that people
trade with one another
and yet
the prices are visible
to people
is, is the signal
that drives
long term productivity.
Okay.
And then
compare that with
the ability
for somebody
to print extra money.
So now if we
think about
oh one more thing
I should say
is that
you should think about
the prices
falling over time
as society's
productivity accruing
to the money.
So the fact
of competition
and technological
innovation drives
all of the prices
for all of the products
and services lower.
The money
you have today
would buy more tomorrow
than it does today.
You would have
deflation
in an economy.
Yeah, right.
We're taught
that it's bad.
We're taught it.
But now
deflation is bad.
If you're leveraged
to the eyeballs,
which the
system is leveraged
to the eyeballs
because it's a debt
based system,
and that's the only way
it can survive
in a inflationary
Keynesian world.
Right.
So it's bad if you're
if you're indebted
hugely rich.
The world is
if you were thinking
about how the world
actually likes
the natural
state of wealth
is deflation.
And
the argument would be,
well, people wouldn't
spend money
in a deflationary
environment,
but we already know
that's totally not
total nonsense.
Because you have
a smartphone,
you have a TV,
you spend money
on credit cards.
All of these
things would be cheaper
if you waited a year.
You get
the same technology
for much lower price
in a year's time,
but you don't do it.
You don't wait a year
to buy a TV
or a smartphone
or a new laptop.
You don't.
The price appears
to be the same
in a year's time
because it's twice
as good
through
technological
innovation.
But if you bought
the same product
in a year's time,
it would be
50% cheaper.
So why don't you just
wait a year?
You don't
wait a year
because of the
utility value.
Because you want that,
because it
makes you more either
makes you happier
in some way
or it
makes you
more productive.
Yeah,
you could be
more productive
because you buy
a laptop
to allow you
to do work
and host podcasts
around the world
to unlock
more economic access
for yourself.
You spend money
on a credit card
and then you pay
20% annual
interest on it.
Why would you do that?
Just wait a month.
Spend it
in a month's time.
This is deflation.
You don't do it.
It's not a human,
it's a human.
What deflation
does is drive
higher quality
decision making.
Because for the
very first time, you're
in a situation where
you have the option
to retain your money,
because right now
you can't
retain your money
because it's melting.
It buys
less in years
time than it
does today.
So you feel
the constant pressure
to either spend
or speculate
to try and protect
that car of your money.
Whereas if you know,
in a year's time
the money's going to be
going to pay
at least
the same amount
and probably three
4% more
because
of the productivity
gains
occurring through
the free market,
because the prices
are falling,
then you start
to think, okay.
I mean, I'm
not in a position
to make better
quality decisions
around my spending
and around investment.
I'm not going to waste
my money frivolously
on stuff I don't
need today.
And and
think about
the quality of
the upgrading, decision
making quality
that brings
to a society.
And yes,
you would see a drop
in spending
if a society
went to a deflation
we want immediately,
but the drop
in spending
would be a good thing.
You wouldn't
be spending
money on stuff
that is unproductive
or unnecessary.
You funnel more capital
to the things
that is unproductive,
unnecessary,
which then compound
very, very quickly
because good decisions
allow more
good decisions,
a lot more
good decisions.
And very quickly
you end up
with an economy
that's far stronger
and far bigger
than one, which is
driven from inflation.
So deflation
is absolutely
the natural state
of the world.
It is
where we need
to return to
as humanity,
would very quickly put
the whole of the
economy on
a much stronger
footing very,
very quickly.
And I'll caveat that
with it's
extremely difficult
to get there
when you are leveraged
to the eyeballs,
like all
the governments
and companies, etc..
So it depends on
your starting point.
But if you're starting
from zero,
deflation
is that natural?
Is not shock.
And so you you were
wanting to understand
where inflation
comes from.
Then it's like
if this is the
natural state,
like how do we not
how do we not get
this productivity
accruing to the money?
One last point
I should say,
because the
productivity accrues
to the money,
you don't have to be
productive yourself
to benefit.
You know,
if you're also or young
and you are
not contributing
productively
to society, you
are still benefiting.
And this is what's
wonderful
about capitalism,
actual capitalism,
not what we live
in today.
Yeah, actual capitalism
is that
the productivity
accrues to the money,
right?
Everyone's
working in their
own self-interest
to the benefit
of everybody else.
And it's exactly
the same with Bitcoin.
Everybody is reacting
to price signals
in capitalism
and trying to make
good decisions,
which leads
to competition,
innovation,
technological
evolution,
driving prices
lower and raising
living standards
for everybody.
It's amazing.
This is just
people alone.
Leave people alone
and things
resolve themselves.
It's the interactions,
the interference
and the corruption
of the money
which makes everything
deteriorate.
And so,
you know, imagine
we go from the island
scenario now
and instead of
someone not being able
to print money,
someone is actually
able to print money.
And so they
have a big red button,
they press the
big red button
and they print
all money
for the government.
Now, when
the government
prints money,
it it belongs
to the government.
And I'm
using government
and central bank
interchangeably
because I
for most people
it doesn't matter
because that
the central banks
are independent,
but they're
not independent at all,
nominally.
So to try and give
some level
of credibility
around the fact
that they just abused
the money
on behalf of
the government, but
they can be received
the mandates
can be rescinded,
changed by
the government,
etc., whenever.
So they're
not independent.
But when you
print money
goes into the coffers
of the government,
and then
for that money
to enter the economy,
it has to go
from the government
to those people
connected
closely to
the government.
So typically
the banking sector,
but it could
be directorates,
you know,
pharmaceutical
companies, all
these sorts of things.
They are the
first recipients
of that freshly
printed money.
But if you go back
to thinking about that,
the price
signals
for the home builders,
if there's suddenly
an increase in demand
for the houses
and there's only
those two suppliers,
the prices
will start going up
and it'll be a signal
to other people
that again,
there is extra
profitability here.
I should become a home
builder too,
and compete
for this
extra profitability.
But there is demand.
If instead
the government
comes along
and it's
got freshly
printed money
and it spends it
with the companies
close to
the government,
it looks like demand.
But it's not demand,
it's just fresh money.
It's just extra money,
but it causes
the prices to go up
in those areas
connected to
the government,
which is a signal
to everybody else
in the
in the economy,
there's a demand
supply imbalance,
there's extra
profitability to
compete for.
And you
begin to suck in
active capital
and motivated
entrepreneurs
from other parts
of the economy
closer to
the government.
But they're only
being pulled
close to the government
because you printed
extra money.
It wasn't demand.
And so you're pulling
the most productive
people in society away
from other areas
of the economy
where they
were contributing
competition
to go and fight
for something
that's not real.
And so the prices
stop declining
in the other parts
of the economy
because there's
less competition,
there's less focus,
there's
less innovation.
And so if you
think about
what that means
for the deflation,
deflation
begins to slow.
You don't get the
rapid technology
increases that accrue
to the money.
You begin to undermine
the productivity gains
in the free market
that previously
were occurring
to the money.
And the more
you do this, you more
the undermine them.
So just by
printing money
you erode
the purchasing power.
Increase of the money.
Yeah.
Without even thinking
about
the negative impact
on top of that,
of all this extra money
washing around
in the economy.
Right.
So that's the
that's the first one
is the misallocation
of cattle.
The second is when
when those businesses
have received money
from the government
and they've made
profits,
they have to run
their business
using humans.
Material input costs,
interacting
with other businesses.
So they begin to spend
with other people
in the economy,
and those people spend
with other people.
And eventually
all this extra money
gradually washes
through the
whole economy.
But the net impact is
that it
starts to increase
the input costs
for everybody,
because there's more
there's more money,
not more demand.
There's just
more money.
And so when
the input costs go up,
whether it's human
or energy or raw
material inputs
for everyone,
every business
is reliant on those.
It doesn't matter
what business you are.
So if you
are thinking about
a previous state
where you had a price
for your service
or product
and the other
input cost,
and you made sufficient
profitability
given the competition
in the market,
that the profitability
justified you
being the entrepreneur
because
it's not riskless,
it's a lot of stress.
A hassle
doesn't suit everybody.
All right.
You're
employing people,
but you justify enough
and you make
as much profit
as you can
while delivering
the highest
quality service
at the lowest price
to to make the books
balance, giving
you competition,
as you talked
about in
the free market,
if your input costs
start to increase,
your profit margins
getting eroded.
So now you're left
with the choice, right?
You need that profit
margin to justify
running the business.
If you make
less profit,
you start to think,
well, I,
I can't justify
running this business
anymore.
I'll just close it
down.
I'll go and work
for someone else.
They can take the risk.
And if you do that,
you reduce competition
in the market
and prices
start going up
or they stop declining.
So
for every
business, you now
have to make
a decision.
It's like,
how do I reinstate
the previous profit
margin I had?
This is not me
being greedy.
This is just me
reacting to the fact
that the input costs
have gone up.
And so now
I have a choice.
I can either
if you think
about a product,
I can either
just pass on the prices
directly
to the customer.
So I keep the product
the same size,
same quality.
My input costs
have gone up,
so I just
raise the price
like very visible
inflation.
The alternative
is to say, well,
I don't want to
put the price up.
So I'll keep the same
quality of product,
the same price,
I'll just make
it 10% smaller.
I have,
which is Shrinkflation,
which we also say,
yeah, you know,
chocolate bars
constantly getting
smaller.
For example, for.
Us it's chips, chips,
bags like crisps.
I don't know
what you call.
Them or a
full. Of it.
All of that for that.
And this is the same
thing.
This is
this is
just shrinkflation.
So you've got
visible inflation
where the price goes
up, you've got semi
visible inflation
and it's semi visible
because sometimes
you don't notice
or you're tricked into
just thinking,
questioning
your own memories
about how big
it used to be.
Other currencies
because it's
a very gradual process.
But then third one
is to say well,
I don't want to make it
smaller
and I don't want to
increase the price.
What if
I could keep the
product the same size,
same price,
and I just compromise
on the inputs
to try and reduce them,
reduce
the cost of them again?
And the easiest
way to do
that is just
to fire people.
You just
find a way
to have fewer
humans involved
in producing.
So you fire them,
you increase
unemployment.
Fresh problem
for the government
to deal with
or you compromise
on the quality.
And so if you
think about a
physical product,
they'll start
to break sooner
because the
the components
they used to use,
they've replaced with,
lower
quality components.
And so it
looks the same.
But instead of lasting
two years it now
last one year
and you have
to rebuy it.
That's still inflation.
You're having to buy it
more frequently.
It still costs the same
but it's a
worse product.
And so this is
why we start
to feel like
everything
is deteriorating
around us.
Right.
And this is
hidden inflation
because
the price doesn't
look like it's changed.
It's not obvious
the products change,
but the quality has
been compromised.
And if you think about
other types
of products,
they're not
all mechanical
products like that
would incorporate
a food as well.
So now
you know
a food manufacturer
is trying to move
to ever lower quality
food.
Components,
the fresh ingredients
just replace it.
Increasing levels
of industrialized
sludge, the products,
the looks the same.
It's just unhealthy
for us.
Increasingly unhealthy.
And then we start
consuming things
we should never
be consuming.
About meat
in the supermarket.
Meat in
the supermarket here is
is like 87% pork.
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
And this is
the deterioration
caused by the big
red button.
Then this causes
health crises.
Why do you think.
Why do I think
we have an obesity
crisis?
This only started
50 years ago.
Right
now, half the
population to this.
It's because we're
consuming stuff
we shouldn't
be consuming.
But it's because
of the money printer.
This is inflation.
So people think,
you know, inflation is
price is changing.
Inflation
is everything.
It's visible inflation
price is going up.
It's semi
visible inflation
through shrinkflation.
And there's
hidden inflation
where it's
quality deterioration
and negative outcomes
for the population
across
all range of things
but largely health.
And so that
that is inflation
right.
But it's all because
somebody printed
extra money.
That's it.
You do not get
those things
when somebody cannot
print money for free.
Yeah.
That's so heavy
because in Australia,
one of the one
of the problems
we have at the moment,
we have a massive
cost of living process.
And if you think
about Maslow's
hierarchy of needs,
the two
the two areas
that I hit
the most is housing
and food.
So, you know,
our supermarkets
are very much
being the scapegoats
of of this problem.
And people are blaming
big corporations.
That is
being big supermarkets,
not understanding
that there's
a much bigger
sort of problem
behind the scenes.
So yeah.
So yeah, we you
also I mean
this is not to
give everyone a pass.
You will always find
some people
who will try
and take advantage
of any situation.
Yeah.
That is not to say
all price increases
are only ever due
to the big red.
But some people
think, oh,
this is
a good opportunity
for me to jack
the prices up.
Okay.
To think otherwise
would be naive.
The fundamental driver
of all of this
is the corruption
of the money.
And you also talk about
housing. For
instance,
if a third
the third big
impact of inflation.
So the first is
the distortion
of the free market.
The second is
is inflation
in the cost of living
and the
negative impacts.
Then that brings to you
as humans
the the third is
is asset inflation.
And you guys know
the Australian House.
How does the market
spin off.
Yeah five feet.
We
we love our property.
Why is it the property.
It's I guess
it's the
Australian dream
to own your own home.
It's also
the way that
many people sort of.
And it was well,
there's a bias
with a lot of our
financial advisors
really liking property
as an asset class.
I'm not sure
where it came from,
but there's definitely
like the
Australian dream.
And it's also
an asset class
that's very well
understood.
It's done
very well in Australia.
So when it's done
well for other people,
other people
that are interested
in understanding it
and getting into it,
I don't
I don't know that
I can answer that
any better.
Well,
I get
the Australian treat
that makes sense.
Everyone should be able
to own their own home.
It's increasingly
difficult
because of the
second thing.
And the second
thing is,
I mean,
you talk about it
being sort of a
store of value.
Yeah.
That's that's what
I should have said.
Store value.
The house
was the store of value
very much is today the,
the yeah.
People want to store
their wealth
primarily in their home
and be set for life
and be able to retire
that.
But why
why do you have
to store
the wealth
in the house?
Because
the money's broken.
If you were
able to store
your value,
still store
your value
in the money,
you wouldn't
need to store it
in the house.
Like drop it.
Like if you could.
If you could go out,
do a day's work
and keep that money
and know
that tomorrow
is not going
to buy less
in ten years
time, it's
not going to be worth
30% of
what it is today.
If it
retained its value,
retained its
purchasing power,
you wouldn't
need to put it in
anything else,
because that's
your economic battery,
that the money
should be an accruing
economic battery.
I do a day's work today
that represents
one day
of my economic energy.
That's going to buy
3% more
tomorrow, 3%
more than that
in two years
time, etc., etc.
because the
the productivity
of the population
should be accruing
to the money.
And therefore
when I earn it,
it's adding
to my storage
and I can call on that
whenever I need to.
That's how I stole
my value,
is that we don't do
that.
We're not able
to do that
because someone's
printing it for free.
And, you know,
in a year's time
it's going to
be worthless.
You know, in ten years
time could be worth
a fraction
of what it is today.
So your
your question is like,
how do I protect it?
I buy a house,
I buy an extra house,
and I rent it out.
What you're doing
that is just trying
to get
a better store of value
for the money,
because
the money's broken.
You don't
you don't necessarily
go through that
explicit
thought process,
but that's
what you're doing.
That is what
you're doing,
whether you're
aware of it or not.
And why
this is the case is
that when they printing
extra money,
they're inflating
the monetary supply.
The costs of everything
are going up.
Your economic output,
which you get paid
for in Aussie dollars.
Someone else is
printing for free.
And so that
slice of the share
of the overall pie of
the economy
is declining.
There's somebody
present
printing their bit
for free.
Right.
So this
feeling
of productivity,
the stealing the
the purchasing power.
But by printing
this extra money,
it causes the prices
of everything to go up,
including the houses.
So if you think
about the
housing stock,
the housing stock
is not fixed
in supply like Bitcoin.
The housing stock is
absolutely elastic.
You can build
as many houses
as you want
given,
especially given the
space in Australia.
Lots.
Of space.
To play.
So we don't necessarily
have that everywhere.
But you're
not really constrained
from a,
space perspective.
You're constrained
from a population
perspective
and the
value of the houses.
So as houses are worth
more in money,
you increase
the supply of them
as home builders.
Yeah.
Because you
can even generate
a greater
profitability.
But by printing
more money
and you've got
a reasonable
from day one,
from one day
to the next,
the housing stock
doesn't really change.
It takes time
to build a house
as planning leases.
But if you just go
and print more money
and if you divide
the the money
by the number of houses
or houses
just worth more,
the houses have
become more valuable.
You just printed
more money. And so
when you compare
that with
just leaving your money
in the
in the bank account,
it's better
to buy a house
because at
then at least it's
the value of it
is sort of expanding
when measured
in the thing,
the extra stuff
they're printing
rather than fixed.
It's just a proxy
store of value
to try and protect
you against
the money printer.
And this is
why the house prices
are going up forever.
And it's just
printing more money.
And the longer
that goes on,
it becomes
you have the money
printer driving it,
but it also becomes,
driven by speculation
as well
and by leverage,
because the
banking sector
will offer
you loans
to buy the houses
because they
keep going up.
And so
you can go
and get a loan
for a second house,
but you get a loan
for the second house
helps you drive
the house.
Prices are faster,
right?
They become
a speculative
asset class,
not where you live.
Homes, a, just
utility tax. Yeah.
Sorry.
Oh that's good.
Hopefully.
Yes. It
they're
they're liabilities
not assets.
When you live somewhere
you pay property tax
you pay
there's maintenance.
There's all of these
different things.
Like sorry I gotta ask
I got to ask
what dog is it?
What breed of a dog?
It sounds like
a small dog.
I think
she's she's a toy.
A toy cockapoo.
Yeah.
She's she's she's tidy.
She's not.
He's very alert.
I'm sorry. I listen.
I could tell
by the bark
that it was
a small dog.
I have a miniature
schnauzer,
and he's very yappy.
A lovely,
very lovely breed.
Yeah. Sorry.
Sorry about that.
I forgot where we were.
I hope you don't.
No, no no, no.
So we were
talking about the
the house prices
going up.
Yes. Yeah.
And so the house price,
the housing sector
becomes speculative.
And this is why
you see on Australian
TV all there I,
I'm, I'm
making
an assumption here
I, I'm assuming it's
the same as the UK.
We have
you know
lots of property shows
and buy
to let portfolios
and rebuilding
our house and all.
Of this stuff,
reality shows, home
maintenance
and improvement.
It's all over
Australia.
Because you're
buying them.
This is store value.
You then realize
you may not even
realize why,
but buying
being more leverage
to the housing
market
is a better thing.
Because if I borrow
money cheaper
than the rate
at which
they're printing it,
I can buy more
houses, benefit
from the
monetary debasement,
and repay the loans.
But you're just driving
the underlying cause,
which is,
the direct result
of the money printing.
But that hurts your
everyday family
because your
everyday family,
as you said,
is suffering
from the cost
of living crisis.
They're getting
squeezed
by visible,
semi visible
and hidden inflation.
Their health
is being undermined
at the same time
as they're
they're trying to
buy a house.
But now the houses
are more expensive
when measured
in their
daily earnings,
because they're
also driven
by speculation
that the
money printing.
So I'm
struggling to afford
my day to day living.
I know it's
more expensive
to buy a house,
so I can't buy
a house anymore
unless
my wife also works.
If we both work,
then we can afford
to live
and afford a house
while taking on
a load of debt.
But if we both work,
we don't have
time for children.
There's more
stresses in our life
and we start to see
the breakdown
of the nuclear family.
We can't make
the economics
work anymore
to have children
or have as
many children
as we wanted
to be able to live
and keep the roof
over your head.
And so you have
fewer children
and you have
more family breakdowns.
There's just more
stresses, like
you're undermining
the,
the nuclear family
through the money
printer.
And this is all
this is all engineers.
This is like
the system is corrupted
because it's the
money printer
and it's
it's everywhere.
And you can see it.
It's just it's it's
absolutely everywhere.
But then it has second
it has knock
on impacts.
So when you
have fewer children
and this is why you see
declining birth
rates everywhere
in the West,
right?
It's because
women have been told.
Right.
The most important
thing is
to have a career
go out,
you know, be
independent, strong.
It's like family
is the most
important thing.
Family and dogs.
I think we may
have to cut this,
cut this vet out,
but here he is.
I'm sorry.
I like this bit.
Yeah. Like,
If family's most
important thing,
family is.
And
but but the whole
the last 50 years
has been about
driving women
into the workforce
to ensure they can keep
the money
printer on the road,
to ensure
that they can keep
the benefit
of the access
to the money printer
because they need to
increase the tax base.
So it doesn't look
like they're just
printing money
for free,
which is exactly
what they're doing.
Yeah. And then
because you have
declining birth
rates everywhere,
the pension system
doesn't work.
The pension system is
absolutely insolvent
everywhere.
And so
the way the pensions
typically work
and I can't speak
to Australia,
but how they would work
in the UK
is that
there's no
sense of an
investment vehicle
or something like that
from the government
is that
you pay in
and someone else
gets the money,
the retiree gets you
money,
you're not paying
into a central thing
that's invested
and it accrues over
time.
It's like
money earned money out.
But the pension system
and the promises
made associated
with that to the amount
when you get to retire
and the
the quality of life
you will have
when you retire.
Those promises
were made
a long time ago,
but the demographic
shifts means
you still
have people
coming through,
but there's not enough
young people
to support
the older people.
The older people
are living longer.
The younger people
are increasingly
unhealthy,
struggling to own
any assets,
underpaid,
less engaged
with society,
just overworked.
The system is broken,
right?
There is no way
to balance
the promises
you've made
with the inputs
coming through with
the demographics.
And so what happens
is it goes bust,
it goes bust.
Unless you continue
to push back
the retirement age
and you continue
to undermine
the quality,
the real value
of what
you pay in retirement.
So it doesn't
work anymore.
So the people working
now will never
get to retire,
because it won't exist,
because it can't exist.
And so
you have all of these,
secondary
and tertiary impacts.
But if you
think about also
the people who
the people
who aren't
in a position
to buy a house.
So either they're
poorer and can
and can't,
won't be able
to get their deposit
together, can't
get access to,
leverage, etc.
or they're
just younger,
not ready
to buy a house.
They increasingly
disengage
because they see
the house prices
going up.
They see the cost
of living pressure.
And you think,
I'm never
going to be able
to buy a house?
Yeah,
I've heard some stats
in in Australia
recently that it takes
ten years
and two months
at this point in
time to save
up for a deposit,
which is a very
long time,
and that the average
first home
buyer now is 50.
I need to validate
this and verify
that I'm not just
making things up,
but it
it sounds accurate.
Yeah,
but is that normal?
Absolutely not.
Because what
you tend to do
is you buy
a house first,
then you have children.
So if you
make it harder
to buy a house
and settle down,
you push back
the ability
for people
to have children.
And so you just
exacerbate everything.
Again.
And if you come
to the conclusion,
I'm never going
to be able
to buy a house,
what does that mean
for you?
Decision making wise?
It's like, okay, well,
there's no
point saving.
So I'll just start
going on holiday.
I'll live my best life.
I'll yellow.
Build up, right? Yeah.
If you don't plan
for the long term,
you don't sacrifice.
You put off
getting married.
Part of
having children.
You think
about your quality
of decision
making of
spend
that we're
talking about
before it deteriorates,
because you're
not investing
future productivity
investing and you're
enjoying yourself.
Yeah.
And then if you're
struggling
even further, what you
it is struggling
to survive
and everything's
getting more expensive.
Your wages are lagging
behind.
You cannot save at all.
You're living paycheck
to paycheck.
You're probably living
in debt.
There's no way out.
And so you start
making bad decisions.
It's like
alcoholism or
drug abuse or whatever.
And then you have
a mental health crisis
for everybody.
It's all
because of the money
printer.
It's all the
direct result
of the money printing,
and it's
destroying society.
But yeah, and this is
and this is,
this is how everything
is just
and all the issues
we see analyze
because of the big
red button ecosystem.
You take that away.
Root cause.
The root cause,
if you take that away,
these things
all resolve themselves.
And this is why
I like Bitcoin.
I say
if you fix the money,
you fix the world
because you
absolutely do.
Because the
the world is broken,
because the money is.
But it's really not
obvious.
It's really,
really not obvious.
But when we talk it
through like this,
it should be entirely
logical.
And, you know,
people should be
hopefully listening,
go, well,
yeah, of course.
But unless.
You know.
That you can show
unless you can
show someone the map,
they don't know how to
go from A to B,
but once you know
how to go from A to B,
you don't
forget it again.
It's like you see it,
you see it once,
you remember
it forever.
And this is why,
you know, once,
once P once
the penny drops
a Bitcoin
is it
changes everything.
So the first time
you go from thinking
the world
is deteriorating,
I don't understand why.
I don't understand
how I protect myself,
my family,
the people I care about
to a position of yeah,
the world
is deteriorating.
I know exactly why,
and I absolutely can't
protect myself,
my family and the
people I care about.
And that protection
is Bitcoin.
Yeah.
Well let's talk
about bitcoin.
Yeah.
And the conflict
between
the comprehensive
for free.
And the can't sensory
can't censor it
in any way.
So even even the money
you have like
because
everything we've
talked about
there is about
quantity of money.
It's not about
the other aspects
of aspects of money.
And you guys will know
this as well.
Is it.
We feel it in the UK
increasingly over
the West.
The money you keep in
the bank
is absolutely not
yours. It's not.
To get permission.
And you get permission.
To access it.
And if you're lucky.
Yeah, yeah,
you, you,
you want to
do something,
you have to
convince them
they should
let you do it,
which is bonkers.
Absolutely bonkers.
You're working
for something
someone else can
print for free,
and someone
can stop using
whenever they want.
How's that logical?
Yeah,
it seems like
an extreme
case, because, I mean,
across the
whole population,
it hasn't happened
entirely across
the board,
but we have had
many instances
of the banking
of just normal,
everyday citizens.
We're not able
to withdraw cash
without being asked
all sorts of questions.
So, yeah.
And then,
yeah.
If you just.
It's a matter of time.
Yeah.
You don't have
to be to back
suffer from it.
Just try my online
transaction.
Just try and go
into the bank and say,
can I withdraw
all my money?
And they'll say, no,
okay.
Or what's it for?
It doesn't matter
what it's for.
It's my money.
And the reality is
it's your money.
If the government
says it's okay
and the bank
says it's okay
if you require
someone else's
permission,
you are not wealthy.
You're
you have to be
self sovereign.
And Bitcoin is
perfect money.
They can't print it
for free
and they can't censor
you. Hold it yourself.
You don't even need
to keep it in the bank.
The fact that we keep
money in the bank
is as a
result of the money
being imperfect.
It's not the way
it should be.
Perfect money is paper.
Money is something
you should just
hold yourself.
Why would you?
You need to give
someone else
your money.
That doesn't make
any sense.
Yeah, it's money, but.
Oh yeah,
I remember
Andras
Antonopoulos said
very early on
that there's
we don't even have
an instance
in this world
where you can pay
someone, anyone
in the world
or locally
without going through
a third party,
without going
through a company.
So there's
no more like,
I can't,
you know,
we go out to
a restaurant,
have dinner,
split the bill.
I want to send
you money.
It has to go
through a company
you just seem so like.
And we've accepted it
as as something normal.
We've been
disintermediated from
the money,
and it's been a
deliberate action.
And this is why
there's a war on cash.
There's a war on cash.
Because they can't
disintermediate cash.
I can give you
some Aussie dollars
and no one's
taking the fee out
the middle.
No one is censoring it.
No one is protecting me
or protecting you.
But they come by.
We make a digital.
They have to
pass through
third party.
And therefore you have
total surveillance,
you have total control,
and you get to charge
everybody
for everything.
And that's
how you subjugate
the population.
This is just
about control,
control
and stealing
as much money
as possible
through a combination
of inflation
and centralization.
Yeah.
For phase
it Bitcoin solves
all of this.
Bitcoin solves
all of it.
Not only does it just
does it fix the world
right.
It empowers everybody.
It removes
it removes
the state's ability
to control your life.
It defunds the state
because the state
cannot take
the money from you
because they
never had it
in the first place.
You own the money
yourself.
No one can stop
you sending
or receiving it
to anybody,
anywhere in the world
at any time,
at the speed of light.
No one can even prove
you have it,
and they absolutely
cannot take it off
you unless you choose
to give it to them.
So it massively reduces
the power of the state.
And so,
you know,
we are in a creeping,
we're creeping towards
total dystopia
around the world,
actually in the West,
with ever
bigger governments,
ever greater level of
interference,
etc., etc..
Now this is,
this is the cause.
They can control
the money
because they can
take the money
whenever they want.
If you remove
the ability
for them to do that.
All right.
Sorry.
She's she's reacting
to the conversation.
She's an impressive
ultimate that you like.
And if you
remove that ability
to do that
then they have
to start acting
in the interest
of the population.
And this is
this is what is.
So this is
why I think
Bitcoin is
as a segment,
so optimistic
because they feel like
they have a greater
level of control
in their lives
for the first time.
They have
a bright future
ahead of them
because they can see
what everyone else
is going
to figure out
over time.
And they also know
that once everyone else
figures it out,
the problems
resolve themselves
because, yeah. This is.
Because, well,
what happens is
Bitcoin is start
turning elections.
And you see this
in the States.
And so Trump came out
and he was explicitly
pro crypto.
This is a much
broader base.
But he was explicitly
separating Bitcoin
from crypto
and create
a Bitcoin
strategic reserve.
And saying
that he wants
the US to be
the number
one superpower
when it comes
to Bitcoin.
Whereas the Democrats
were fighting it.
Okay.
And anti crypto
army were trying
to kill
all the
bitcoin businesses
through shadow
banking, interference
regulation.
The SEC has been
has been trying
to create
just difficulties for
bitcoin companies
through time
enforced and through
regulation
through enforcement,
not communication.
And so
what happens is
Trump wins
all the votes.
He wins all the votes.
Democrats win
no votes from Bitcoin
because the most
important thing
is fixing the money.
So Bitcoin has
become one issue.
Voters
I'm sorry I.
That's all right
I'm sorry.
We're gonna have to
fuck this down.
Give me one second.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
No problem at all.
And, yeah, I'm.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry about that.
I mean, no, no.
Not at all.
I don't know,
I don't know
what's gotten into
normal.
She's fast asleep,
up till
about lunchtime.
I think she's
getting triggered
by the conversation.
I have tried
talking about
the problem,
and she's like.
She's just wanting
to give
the sound effect
that she's, you know,
very supportive
of of this.
I'm sorry.
I hope it hasn't.
Ruined the ruin
the podcast for you.
Hopefully not. At all.
I did edit that out.
And so we're
talking about the,
so we're talking about
the votes.
So I guess we can.
Restart it,
restart it here.
And so
the Democrats win
no votes
because no one is a
single issue voter
against Bitcoin,
but almost
every Bitcoin
or is a single issue
voter for Bitcoin.
So the path
to the candidate
who is pro Bitcoin
wins all the votes.
And so there's no point
fighting bitcoin.
It becomes table stakes
in the next elections
around the world.
You've got to be
pro bitcoin.
Or if you lose votes
politicians don't like
not winning elections.
So they'll be
pro bitcoin.
This is just
what's going to happen.
And the more bitcoin
you have,
the bigger
that block of votes
that you're winning.
And it means
the candidates
have to be pro bitcoin
more explicitly
pro Bitcoin.
You even get candidates
who are bitcoin less.
And once you are
a bitcoin
I've never
met a candidate.
I've never met
a bitcoin a
who thinks a
bigger government
is a good idea, right?
It's about
less government.
It's about
more sovereignty.
And so eventually
everyone's going
to be a Bitcoin
way before
everyone's a bitcoin.
Bitcoin is are
going to represent
a sufficiently large
but still small block
of the
voting population
that it changes
candidates behavior.
And we're
going to start
having Bitcoin
is in politics.
So government
starts to fall.
You run on a smaller
government ticket
and you
gradually remove
the interference
of the state
because they realize
you can't buy Bitcoin.
And they realize
the logical thing
is to embrace Bitcoin
because it gives you
a competitive
advantage.
This is what's
going to happen
to every country
in the world.
And so as big
as Bitcoin is,
you can be
massively optimistic
about the future
because you know
you know
we're going to win
this resolves
this result.
This resolves itself.
There is
it's a question
of how long it takes
and the planet
takes between now
and there.
But we know where
it's going.
We know that's the.
Path that I'm always
speculating on.
So I do
speculate on Bitcoin,
just not the way
that people,
the traders
would think.
I speculate on Bitcoin.
It's more about
what's that path
going to look like,
what countries
are going
to be friendly
towards it versus
not friendly
towards it.
Will it be
civil unrest?
Are we going to
have an evolution
or a revolution soon?
These are all thoughts
that keep me
up at night.
Yeah, and I don't
I don't have
the answer.
That I'm.
Used to them
all because it's
it's less
about logic and
it's more about
human emotion
as those
things play out.
But I think
game theory wins.
Human action wins.
People tend
to do things
that are
in their interest
to do.
You learn lessons
from other people.
If you fight back,
you lose.
Yeah, stop.
And if you
ignore Bitcoin,
you get left behind.
For this.
There isn't
a neutral strategy.
Yeah.
It's like
it's like goes out to
on the internet.
It's like
you can choose
to ignore those things.
But if you do
you either end up dead
or out competed.
So you don't
ignore them.
You you
engage with them.
And this is the same
as is
what's going to happen
to Bitcoin
over the next
decades
as it washes
around the world
and washes
washes society clean,
I would say.
I want to ask you, Joe,
do you think
because sometimes
I'm trying to
think of
questions to ask like
I see this solution
very clearly.
I see the problem
very clearly.
But someone who is
entirely new to this,
I think they might
be thinking like,
are we too idealistic?
I would,
I encourage you
to watch the video
because I don't think
there'll be
anything in the video
they disagree with.
And if you can
watch that video
and you agree
with every step of it
and you use
your own critical
thinking
at the end
of the video,
you will know
that you don't want
to be on
one side of the aisle,
but that one
side of the island
is so much better
than reality.
Better
than where we are
currently.
You already know
you don't want to be
on that side
of the island,
but that was
better than we are
where we are today.
I am convinced
you've got there
on your own.
This is all just
critical thinking.
It's all it is.
Do you know is
Bitcoin is if
we always say
don't trust, verify and
with Bitcoin
you're just encouraged.
Everyone encourages you
to not trust anybody
and to deliver
to do your
own thinking.
And at the core of this
is it's all just
natural human action.
Think about what
you would do
in those scenarios.
Well, that's
kind of special.
Give me hope.
Yeah, well,
it gives me hope
about the adoption
because I do
worry about,
you know, Australia
and how that's going
to unfold here.
And whether, you know,
people will be open to
whether governments
will be friendly.
But I do
ultimately believe
that most people
are inherently good,
and most people want
what's best
for themselves
and everyone else.
And that,
I guess truth
will prevail.
Well, incentives
prevail.
Yeah.
Human action
will take hold.
And when I'm
with Bitcoin,
you unlock a global
free market
because no one could
stop your trading
with anybody.
No one can even
no one even has to know
you've traded
with somebody else.
There has to be
anybody in between.
And in exactly
the same ways.
Capitalism is
everybody working
free market capitalism,
not the distortions
we have today
where you have more
and more government
interference,
introducing regulations
and disruptions
to the free market.
But free market
capitalism is
everyone just working
in their
own self-interest,
which ultimately
benefits everybody else
because the product is
your cruise
to the money.
Okay,
Bitcoin is exactly
the same.
The entire
Bitcoin network
is everyone
just working
in their
own self-interest,
but it benefits
everybody else
because it
makes Bitcoin
more secure,
more accepted,
more trusted by people
through the passage
of time, etc., etc.
you can't beat up.
You can't beat a system
either.
You fight it,
but you'll lose.
The right thing to do
is to engage with it
and make it a
competitive advantage.
Fear
and understand it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And by doing that,
you strengthen
the network.
You strengthen
and help it win faster.
And so it wins
this.
Then it's it's
not it's not in doubt.
It's just how long
it's going to take.
Yeah.
People
people may
struggle with
the cause.
It's technology.
You have an adoption
period.
It's like it's
like it might seem
clunky or hard to use
or of a
high, steep learning
curve, these
different things.
But that's no different
for the internet.
30 years ago,
you wouldn't know them
say that of
the internet.
Now,
you know,
it's really difficult
to get online.
You know, it's
not it's super easy.
It
you live your
lives online.
It is shopping online.
I do banking online.
It's easy.
It's frictionless.
That was not the case.
There is
think about Bitcoin
exactly the same way.
There is time.
Going to be super easy
even in the world.
Yeah you it
it's just your early.
You're early
and you're
dealing with those
early fractions
for those early
fractions are
what represents
the opportunity.
Once you one
penny is dropped
and you know
everyone else
is going to get it
once.
That was going to be
my next question
for you
is any listeners
that don't yet own
any Bitcoin
or don't understand
much about it
other than, you know,
listening,
watching with
your video,
do you think
they've missed
the boat?
No, no.
But let me ask
you this.
Are they going to
stop printing money?
No.
Never.
Ever.
So the
Aussie dollar
is going to zero.
So are you.
Well, I late know
early.
Yeah. Early.
Absolutely.
Because the dollar
the Aussie dollar is
is not worth zero yet.
It's going to
be worth zero
because they'll
never stop printing
the purchasing
power of you
dollars
is going to zero.
And you know this
because you don't
keep money in the bank
because it's melting.
You know,
everyone
already knows this.
Everyone knows
you don't keep money
in the bank
for ten years.
You definitely don't
keep money in the bank
for 50 years.
Won't be
worth anything.
I thought you were
singling me out.
Like I don't
keep money.
In the bank.
You know, this?
Yeah. Sorry, sorry.
Are you trying.
To $5 range attack me?
Joe?
Yeah, but all.
Reactivity
that's come across.
I think it's.
No, no, no, it's
funny tone.
I meant,
I meant in general
people.
This is not new.
People know.
This is why
they buy the house.
Yeah.
Because the money
is broken.
And so
if the
money's broke now
they're just
going to continue
to print money.
It's more of the same
until it's
not worth anything.
And so sometimes
sometimes people
ask me for
and I don't talk
about price
predictions.
But sometimes
people say, well,
what's your price
prediction?
I say,
the only thing I say,
but I wouldn't normally
say the Aussie dollar.
I'd say something else.
But yeah, my price
prediction is
Aussie dollars
going to zero?
I so you don't
want to own it.
You want to own the
thing they can't print,
and now
no one can take off
you and stop
you sending.
And then everyone
in the world
is going to accept
what they
and it's going to be
the money.
It's going to be
the money of the world.
Why would I want to
own anything else?
Why would I want
to own a house?
Why would I want to own
a second house
that goes down
when measured in debt?
Right.
So so think about
think about
the decision
making for
the Australian people
where they've gone
from realizing
they can't keep money,
can't keep
the purchasing
power of the money.
So they buy the houses,
the housing market
gets inflated
and the houses
represent more
than their core
utility value to
to the family.
Now,
when you're thinking
about your
portfolio of houses,
you think,
oh, well, that's
going up in value
because it's worth
more Aussie dollars
every year.
I think
that's a good
investment.
If you measured it
in Bitcoin,
it's losing money.
It's going down
in value every year.
And so as soon
as your unit
of internal
unit of account
switches to Bitcoin,
you realize
the housing
is terrible investment.
Why on.
Earth might. Why.
Why on earth
would I be
buying houses
that lose money
over time?
I'll buy a loan.
The house I live in
because it has utility
value for me,
but I'm selling
the rest of them.
I'm selling them.
I'm keep it in bitcoin
because if
I don't do that,
I'm losing bitcoin.
I'm losing money.
And so what happens is
you demonetize all the
proxies for the value
that have taken
the place
of the money
over the last 50 years,
and Bitcoin
just consumes
everything.
It Demonetize
is all of these
all of these
asset classes,
because
the asset classes
have been purchased,
not because of
their intrinsic,
not because
intrinsic is
not the right word,
not because
of their utility value,
that because
they're being used
as a
better store of value,
because the money
is broken.
So if you fix money,
do you monetize
all these things?
This is like natural,
logical outcomes.
I've just fixing
the money.
Yeah.
Now that you've
said intrinsic,
I have to ask you,
Joe, can you
I just have to
I think this is
a lot of people
get hung up with this.
Bitcoin has no
intrinsic value.
Okay.
Well I would go back to
I thought
you were gonna
ask a
different question. No.
Oh really?
What you going to say?
You did.
You do
I think you can say
is there such thing
as intrinsic value?
Well, I have
an opinion on that.
But.
Okay.
Well, yeah, I'm
just saying, if.
I believe in
subjective value,
I don't believe in
intrinsic value,
but yeah. 100%.
And I'm not
so obviously true.
If you're drowning,
do you want a gold bar
or a life jacket?
Life jacket.
So how is the range
and how is there
any such thing
as intrinsic value.
There's not.
It has utility.
But there's
no such thing
as intrinsic value.
Full stop.
A single example proves
that's the case.
Okay.
It's about
what you want
at a given time.
Given
the circumstances.
It's entirely
subjective.
So to say
Bitcoin doesn't
have intrinsic value,
nothing has
nothing at all
has intrinsic value.
Okay.
What Bitcoin does have
is it
has proof of work.
So when you have she.
Loves proof of work.
I will cut this bit
back in and go.
Okay okay.
I didn't.
Right.
Sorry I have
to start again.
So I said Bitcoin
as proof of work.
Money printing
does not have
proof of work.
You can press a key
on a keyboard
and create more money.
Nothing goes into that
with bitcoin.
You cannot
print it for free.
And this is one of the
this is one of
the issues
that people have
is like
why is
Bitcoin valuable?
And I would
get into question why
I think gold
is valuable.
No one seems
to question
that gold is valuable.
But why is gold
gold valuable?
Because it
has a
series of qualities
that make it
an acceptable money.
Historically
the best, approximate,
the best, the best
evolution of money
that we've had
available to us
on Earth.
However,
it's compromised.
It's not portable.
We can't send it over
the internet.
It's hard to verify.
I can't pay for
small amounts in it
because how do you pay?
How do you keep
changing gold?
How do you even pay
for it?
A bag of chips
and gold.
You couldn't do. That.
Can't digitalize it.
You can't carry it
in your pocket.
So?
So clearly it fails on
so many different
measures.
It's not good money,
it's just the best
money we had
because it's not good
money.
Had a paper layer
put over the top of it
until you put
all the gold
in the gold vaults
need issue receipts
against the gold.
And then you say
you can come
and swap the receipt
for the gold
whenever you want,
but no one ever did,
because no
one wants the gold
because it's clunky and
impractical.
So you just end
it with fiat money.
And then over time,
they realize
they could just
print more
of that money
because no one ever
asked for the gold.
And then when someone
calls their bluff,
they just severed
the convertibility.
And now we just use
not only money.
That's the history
of the
financial sector,
the history of
the monetary
sector of the last
since 1971.
Like the severed
that link in 71.
That's why
we use paper.
So it's called
because gold,
imperfect money,
bitcoins, perfect money
because paper money.
And so you can
send it over
the internet,
you can hold it
yourself.
It's infinitely
divisible.
It lasts forever.
You know,
you don't need
you don't need,
you don't need the,
PayPal.
It is the paper layer.
It's the paper
layer in the money.
It's everything.
There's
no separation anymore
between currency
and money.
Paper is the currency.
Gold is the money.
Bitcoin is one
and the same thing.
It solves.
It's perfect money.
It's the perfection
of money.
So you don't
need anything else.
You don't need
anything else at all.
And so when.
I ask.
I'm so sorry.
It's okay
to come back
to the answer
in the question.
Like so.
If you have
convinced yourself
that gold is valuable,
then you're going
to love Bitcoin
because gold
is valuable,
because it feels
those characteristics
of a money
good enough
or better than anything
else. Right?
But still imperfect.
But one of the core
characteristics is,
you can't print it,
you can't print gold,
you can't
print it for free.
You've got to go
and decide to mine.
You've got to do
some work.
You've got to
do proof of work
to bring gold
into circulation.
You've got to
go in mining,
you've got to expend
energy, you've got
to expend resources
to go and
get gold
out of the ground,
and you'll make
a small profit
margin on doing so.
But similarly,
if it was,
if the cost of
getting gold out
the ground was
really low,
more people
would compete
to do so, right?
And then you would have
the erosion
of the profit margin,
like any other
thing in society.
But also as the
gold price goes up,
you could
dig more out
of the ground.
So it's a hard
it's was
like a hard money,
but it has soft edges.
It's in a supply
because basically
all the money
or the gold
already exists.
It's just
an economical
to excavate it
unless
the price goes up
and as the price
goes up,
the supply goes up.
But but
the whole construct
there is you're
expanding energy,
doing proof of work
to bring
gold into existence
above the surface.
And that's along with
its characteristics is
what gives gold value.
Right.
And this is people
probably listening
gold obviously.
Obviously
that's the case. Okay.
Well great.
Bitcoin is exactly
the same apart
from it's better.
So you're mining
Bitcoin.
There's a fixed
amount of Bitcoin
that will ever exist.
And that gold right.
There's an unknown
amount of gold
in the planet.
And the gold
is absolutely infinite.
The universe.
It's just that
we can't reach it.
Bitcoin is
absolutely finite.
Will ever be
will forever be finite.
And
you can't mine
more of it
as the price goes up.
And so it's
absolutely scarce.
It's absolutely hard.
It's totally inelastic.
And so
there's there's
nothing like that
in the entire universe,
but it's secured
by energy.
So instead of,
you know, digging
massive holes
in the ground,
expanding huge
amounts of energy,
destroying the planet,
getting all
the gold out,
you're using,
mining infrastructure,
electronic mining
infrastructure.
It's just electronic.
It's just
electrical energy.
That's all it is.
And you're
just getting
a random number.
It's 100%
efficient energy money.
You're not destroying
the planet.
You're
saving the planet
through Bitcoin mining
because Bitcoin mining
incentivizes
renewable energies
infrastructure
globally,
lowering the cost
of energy
for everybody,
stabilizing
grids,
bringing economic
empowerment to
to company
to communities
all around the world
that wouldn't
be able to monetize
this stranded,
stranded
energy resources
they have access to
Bitcoin fixes
everything,
including
the environment
and
and that should
be very clear
why that has value.
And the more people
that miner,
the more people
that compete for it.
Free market process,
not like gold mining.
You don't get
the rights to mine it.
If you know
the politicians,
you don't get to
with the rights.
It's free
for everybody,
everywhere in the world
to compete
to mine Bitcoin.
You just got
to try and do it
on the most economical
basis possible.
So you want computers
and the lowest
cost energy,
which is the energy
that already exists.
This is why
you get to build out
the renewables grid.
Because if a river
is flowing
the energy exists.
It's just not
being monetized.
So build
the infrastructure
to monetize it.
You have green energy
and so
yeah Bitcoin
absolutely has value.
And the more people
that mine it,
the more secure
the network,
the more decentralized
the network is
around the world.
So no one country
controls it.
No one country
can impact
it materially
to any degree.
The amount of
total power
used to mine
Bitcoin is in excess
of any combination
of nation states
could possibly
put together.
So you can't
compromise the network
and the more people
join it,
the more secure
it becomes,
the more valuable
it becomes.
So more people join it,
the more decentralized
it becomes.
You can't beat it.
Why do you?
Why would you
expand energy
doing anything else?
Yeah.
Why did you take.
In a life on its own.
And my bitcoin
is that Bitcoin
ultimately demonetized.
Is gold as well.
Gold
cult is ten times
the size of Bitcoin
is bonkers.
Gold is just terrible.
Really inefficient
energy money.
Bitcoin is perfect
energy money.
So yeah.
So I want yes. Yeah.
So it doesn't have
intrinsic value
but it has
it has real world
energy value.
Someone's had
to expend energy
to bring that
into existence.
Yeah.
Not press
a key on the keyboard.
I wanted to
ask you, Joe.
And I'm going
to read your quote of
my note notebook.
I don't misquote you,
but once you, you once
you called Bitcoin
the most asymmetric
bet of all time.
What did you
mean by that?
Because it can
only lose 100%.
The most
you can lose is 100%,
but the most
it's going to go
up is forever,
because they're
never going
to stop printing money.
So when you measure it
in something
that someone's
going to print forever
and ultimately print
an infinite amount
of it,
it's going up forever.
So if you
if you
want to think
about how I stole
my economic
energy forever,
you have to
use Bitcoin.
There's no alternative.
And it's
the most asymmetric
bet of all time
because
most people
have no idea.
But it's
entirely obvious
once you connect
the dots.
And so
the total global
asset base
of everything
is about 1000 trillion
top market real estate,
the bond
market collectibles
all gold
thousand trillion.
Bitcoin is 2 trillion.
So it's 0.2%
and everything.
We've already
talked about
the decisions
you make
when you understand
Bitcoin.
You don't buy
the other stuff.
You sell the
other stuff
about bitcoin.
And so yeah.
So if you are
adamant in your view
that Bitcoin is perfect
money,
that everyone
in the world
is ultimately going
to understand,
and once
they understand,
they never go back,
then ultimately
everybody understands
one day.
And if everyone
understands,
everyone thinks
like you
and they don't
want anything
other than Bitcoin.
So for that
to be 0.2%
of everything right now
is ridiculous.
That's what I mean
by the greatest
asymmetrical power
of all time.
And it happens.
Yeah, it happens once.
This is a
civilizational change.
You don't
you don't go back.
Yeah. Go back.
There's
there's a quote
by an Australian
Bitcoin
called Peter
Dunn with that
I absolutely love.
And he said it's
not the big that eat
the small.
It's the fast
that eat the slow.
And I love that quote
for Bitcoin
because yeah
for obvious reasons.
Bitcoin.
Cannot eat everything.
You
you can't fight
incentives
long term.
And it's a
competitive vantage
for everybody.
And humans are humans.
You can't fake
human action.
You can try
and put structures
in place
that restrict
human action.
But we all know
those structures break.
That's what history is.
History
is about
putting structures
in and around humans
to constrain
what they do naturally.
And the last year
period of time,
and then the collapse
Bitcoin is
is a humanity upgrade.
A big one.
Big one.
And it removed I.
Never thought yeah,
I never thought
I would ever seen
anything like this
in my lifetime.
And I just
feel grateful
every single day
that I'm alive
to see this happen.
Like, it just.
Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, yeah.
I think we look back
in our old
age, hopefully,
I mean, hopefully
as we get to old age,
not hopefully
this happens.
And think,
how is it
not just so obvious?
How is it
not so obvious as quick
as most people haven't,
haven't even done
a small amount of work.
Yeah.
And so
my encouragements
everyone would be
just to just start,
start
reading something,
watch
what's the problem
then watch a few
more videos
and you'll connect
the dots and
hopefully never look.
Never look back
and then
take control
of your life again.
Be optimistic
about the future.
Absolutely.
And I
don't want to keep
you much longer
because we're
already quite
long into this podcast.
But the last question
I want to ask you,
Joe, is
a speculative one,
but it's
you're speculating
on your own self.
Okay.
And where
like where
do you hope to see
Bitcoin in
the next ten years.
As an active medium
of exchange?
That's the
missing piece
right now.
For us.
It's seen as
increasingly
a store of value,
especially pushed
by the financial,
participants,
financial players,
etc., etc.
it's absolutely not.
It's money.
It's peer to peer
electronic cash.
It's not something
you put in evolve
to never touch
Bitcoin
is going to become
the medium
of exchange globally.
We're just trying
to remove
those frictions
at this point,
it is coming.
You're never going
to need to.
In my view,
you're never going
to need
to sell your bitcoin
because one day
you'll just
spend it all
your shopping in it.
You pay mortgage in it,
the mortgage would be
a lot smaller.
And it is today.
I bet you'll use it.
It's peer
to peer
electronic cash,
but it's your long term
economic battery.
It is everything.
It's your
store of value.
It's the medium
of exchange.
And ultimately
it's how you think.
It's your it's
going to be
your unit of account.
You don't think in
Aussie dollars anymore.
We think in Bitcoin
that's that's
where it's going.
It just takes time.
And so my
my personal focus
next ten years
how do we help.
How do we fix
medium of exchange.
I have a feeling
it will happen.
And I'll tell you why.
There's
this one little clue
that happened
in BlackRock's,
letter 2025 letter
to the investors
and shareholders.
Small line
that says
if US doesn't
get its debt
under control,
it's going to lose
the world
reserve currency status
to Bitcoin.
And he didn't say
the Chinese yuan.
He said bitcoin.
So it's almost like
America
has an incentive
to push this.
F well yeah I guess
there's a slight nuance
there as well because
you can have
you could have
they could have
easily said gold.
Right.
And that
that wouldn't make gold
the medium of exchange.
It would just be
the reserve
currency is what you
would hold
in your vault.
Yeah.
So where are you
going with this?
And so yeah,
I mean that's
absolutely true.
Bitcoin
will replace the dollar
as the global reserve
currency
is the wrong thing.
It's currency on money.
At some point
in the future.
That's not ready.
No one's ready
for that.
Yeah the infrastructure
is not ready for that.
Yeah.
So many fiat currencies
will die completely
before then.
And I,
I believe
we're going to see
a reduction
in number
of fiat currencies
we have globally
over time.
And they will either
move to the dollar
or bitcoin,
especially as the
dollar promotes
as the US promotes
stablecoins
which can then eat
fiat currencies
all over the world.
Dollar is
fiat currencies
very easily
on, low cost
payment rails instantly
everyone will
have a choice.
It's the dollar
or bitcoin,
but the choice
of the US,
it will be the dollar
built on bitcoin,
because the US knows
the only way
out of being solvency.
It finds itself in
is by owning Bitcoin.
And so the way
that they all going
gold in Fort Knox,
they already
are the biggest bitcoin
holders in the world.
And they know
they're staffed.
Their administration
staff full of bitcoins.
They know
Bitcoin is
the only way out.
So you've got to own
as much bitcoin
as quickly as possible.
And you're
collateralize
the dollar with bitcoin
by doing so
drive Bitcoin adoption
globally in Bitcoin
becomes partner
to the dollar
and helps cement
the dollar's position
as the
global reserve currency
for a number of years
to come.
But ultimately
Bitcoin it's
the dollar.
Because why would
I want to use
the dollar when I
can just use Bitcoin.
But by
enabling the dollar
to retain its
primary status
for longer
than it should,
it makes the world
aware
and very comfortable
with Bitcoin.
So then why do you
need the dollar?
That's how I see the
how I see
the future playing.
Now obviously
I'm going to be
totally wrong,
but that's
the marketplace
of money.
That's that's
how I see it.
As I see it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well yeah,
this conversation
has given me so much
to think about,
and I'm very grateful
that you came
on the show.
Oh my. Pleasure.
Thank, thank you.
Thank you
for your time.
Lot lots
for,
people to think about.
And I'll drop some
links in the,
the podcast description
and yeah, thanks again.
Okay.
Well thank you,
thank you.
That's it for this week
on the Honest Money
Show.
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