Isabelle Roughol: Hey, it's Isabelle.
This is a little bit extra for the podcast feed.
This is actually the audio of a LinkedIn livestream.
I just did with Lauren Razavi, who is a digital nomad, author, expert
activist, about working across borders.
And she and I are friends and together we have something like 20 years of experience
of working remotely and across borders and in a distributed or remote team.
And so we got into what that means and how you can make it work in
your organizations now that so many people are working remotely and want
to stick with it past the pandemic.
So that's something we did on LinkedIn Live.
So you can see the video as well on LinkedIn or on YouTube, or you
can just listen to the audio here.
And if you're interested in this kind of stuff, we're going to be doing
another one next week, same time.
So that's Wednesday July 14th, 1:00 PM london time.
So that's 2:00 PM in Europe and that's 8:00 AM in New York.
So look to my LinkedIn, look to the newsletter, and all my social feeds to
get the links or the YouTube channel.
So again, that's me and Lauren Razavi talking about remote and distributed
and hybrid work and how to make it work.
And next week, we'll be talking about how to build a global career, the
thing that you need to think about, the things that you need to think about,
uh, right now, if you're thinking about transforming your career and taking
it in a direction that gives you a little bit more freedom of location.
So that's what we'll be getting into next week since apparently everyone is
quitting their job right now because they don't want to go back to the office.
All right.
I'll let you listen.
And I'll talk to you soon.
Hello?
Hello everyone.
We are live, I believe.
Hi, I'm Isabelle Roughol and I am joined today by Lauren.
Hi Lauren.
How are you?
Lauren Razavi: Hi, Isabelle.
I'm doing very well.
Thank you.
Thanks for, thanks for having me here.
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, this is so much more fun to be doing
this, uh, with company rather than, uh, rather than on my own.
I find so much better than a monologue.
um, introduce yourself to, to get us going, I guess.
Lauren Razavi: Yeah.
So my name is Lauren Razavi and I'm a writer and activist.
Um, I'm currently writing a book about digital nomads,
which is called global natives.
Uh, and that's coming out in September and I'm a tech policy fellow at the Tony
Blair Institute for global change, looking at remote work and the future of cities.
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, congratulations on that.
I thought that was a, that was a recent announcement.
That's really cool.
And I look forward to reading the book and definitely having you on
the podcast when that comes out.
Um, and I'm, I mean, if you're following me on LinkedIn, uh, on
YouTube, you kind of already know who I am, but, I'm Isabelle Roughol, I
am the founder, producer, one woman behind the one woman show that is
a borderline, which has podcast and newsletter or community, uh, media for,
um, defiant global citizens covering kind of lives, lived across borders.
Um, and I was in my previous life, the, um, international editor at LinkedIn on
this very platform, um, hence, uh, being here quite a bit and, and having this
experience of managing um, a remote team.
And so I was, as I was saying in a post announcing this, uh, the two
of us together have like a couple of decades of experience of doing all the
things people have been doing during a pandemic, you know, working remotely
and on the zoom and all of that.
And, and around across time zones and borders.
Um, so that's what we're going to get into today.
Um, let's start by defining some terms and I want to say hello to everyone.
I can't even keep up with the chat, but I love seeing everyone mentioning the
country that they're from like Turkey.
Pakistan.
Um, that's awesome.
So hello everyone.
By the way, we'll be taking questions to like drop them in the stream.
Uh, we'll absolutely be answering them.
Um, Cameroon Bangladesh.
It's so cool.
Um, so yeah, right.
Lauren Razavi: Sorry.
Super borderless crowd we have
Isabelle Roughol: with them.
I know, I know Somali land, man.
That's cool.
That's like, uh, one of those like countries that are, um, are,
you know, countries, there's a whole documentary about that.
It's really fascinating places that don't exist.
Um, all right.
So.
Uh, Danielle, I love these, uh, seeing these followers, uh, come back.
All right.
So let's get into our topic.
Let's um, define some terms.
What do we mean?
Uh, you're the one that taught me the difference between remote and distributed.
And now there's a new word hybrid as everywhere.
Can you define what those are?
Lauren Razavi: Yeah, sure.
So I kind of think to put the human face on this, it probably makes sense
to talk about how my experience in your experience is a little bit different.
So, uh, you were working, uh, for LinkedIn and kind of building this
international team, um, and very much working in the remote context, but if
I'm correct, like you had colleagues in offices around the world, right?
Yes.
Isabelle Roughol: Yes.
So often, um, editors would be kind of alone.
As an editor in the office, but there were other functions around.
So they weren't working, you know, from home from, you know, the company was, was
present and had an office and all of that.
But then our boss was in New York and the bulk of the organization
was in the United States.
Lauren Razavi: Cool.
So, yeah, for me, when I was a managing editor for Google, um, and I did a
couple of other roles for Google kind of over the years, but I was working,
uh, as part of a distributed team.
And essentially I think the difference is really in, uh, to be remote.
You have to be remote from something, whereas distributed.
Uh, is just kind of like remote by design, if you like is it's distributed by design.
So the team that I was running and the teams that I've worked as part of
in tech has been fully distributed.
So there was no kind of like monitor sitting in the office, uh, sort of
not located with the remote work.
But instead of the entire team was completely distributed.
So everybody was working from home or from their own co-working space.
So I think this is a sort of an interesting thing for us to think about
now, because there's been a lot of talk this past year about remote work for
obvious reasons, but actually the move that I think businesses need to be making
is towards more distributed structures.
Um, meaning that you're sort of designing for the people who aren't in the room.
Every single time, uh, you kind of make a decision, uh, or do something.
And now, uh, with things sort of beginning to reopen, et cetera, we have
the rise of hybrid work, which is sort of parts in the office and part remote.
Um, and I think we're going to dig into that a little bit and
kind of like the do's and don'ts, uh, in our conversation today.
Um, but I think the biggest thing to be aware of, uh, is that remote.
Um, so sorry.
Remote suggests, uh, being remote from something.
Distributed suggests that everyone's kind of on equal fitting.
Uh, and that actually there, perhaps isn't an office that, uh,
that people can gather in, I'm
Isabelle Roughol: sensing a bit of a, um, preference in the way that you're
in the way you're, you're describing.
Why do you think that distributed as better than that?
Or do you, that's kind of what I'm getting, but yeah.
Lauren Razavi: Yeah, I definitely do because, um, I think remote is kind of
this half step on the way to distributed.
So we're kind of in this environment now where everybody is talking
about remote work, but kind of not taking the conversation.
Beyond that idea of not being located somewhere.
Whereas if you think more about teams, if you think more about kind
of redesigning and future-proofing businesses, uh, it's really a
distributed mindset you need to have.
So in practice, that means making sure that you're kind of redesigning
functions, so that decisions aren't being made by like the three people who
are in an office and then sort of being reported to the 20 people who are not.
Uh, in the office who are remote workers.
Um, so we need to master, uh, asynchronous communication.
ie not, uh, making decisions in a room together, but instead, uh,
kind of communicating in a more thoughtful and intentional way.
Um, and it's really, really important, um, to, uh, get really
serious about documentation.
So there are some great companies out there, her leaders in the
remote world, um, like get lab.
Ghost and WordPress, um, who create extensive documentation and really
document every decision and process, review that stuff and make it
useful for every employee or entire teams within the organization.
And it labs case.
A lot of that stuff is actually fully public, so anyone can access it and
kind of gain from their knowledge of how to, how to design a business
in this way and how to work in this.
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, that's awesome.
You were reminding me, um, there's a former colleague of mine.
Uh, Brian SU um, I don't know if he's here, but I'll, I'll share his stuff.
He did.
He does his great, like, um, He's a data guy and he does, he's great,
like Tik TOK, videos and videos on LinkedIn about what it's like to work.
And he had a hilarious one the other day about like finding who's the owner
on a particular project or product.
And like, that's really basic information.
But I remember being so frustrated, it would take me like over a
day of like emailing around and all of that to find out because.
Like in the room with these people.
So you never know, you can't just go up to someone's desk and find that information.
So the documentation is so important.
Um, you reminded me also of a conversation that I feel like we didn't have enough.
Um, especially, you know, when people started talking about how, you know,
the pandemic had revealed remote work, everyone was going to get back to that.
Cause it was so much better.
And people talk about how it's so much better.
You know, for working parents or for people who are disabled and,
and maybe cannot, um, you know, access the office as easily.
The thing that bothered me with that, and it gets to what you're talking
about remote versus distributed, is if you're just remote, you're also
remote from the centers of power.
And so I protect, you know, we're S we're pretending that we're making
work more accessible, but actually we're still marginalizing people who
can't be there physically, um, in the room with the decision-makers.
Lauren Razavi: Hm.
Yeah.
I, I think I agree with that.
Like, um, so much of, uh, designing for this new world of work is
really about questioning hierarchy and reassessing where power lies.
Um, I think we've seen a huge pushback actually to a bigger extent than, uh, than
I was expecting from workers who want.
Who wants flexibility, her sort of, I guess like renegotiating the kind of
standard contract or the standard terms of what it means to be an employee.
And I think that's really important.
I think that, uh, there are a lot of managers who perhaps want people back in
the office because they're not quite sure how to be a manager in a remote context.
And it would be easier to just kind of get everyone back where they can see them.
But actually I think like the whole.
The whole, like negotiation of work has changed and we're seeing all over
the U S right now, um, people quitting their jobs, uh, because they're not
happy with how their companies are kind of transitioning, uh, or sort
of adjusting to this new world.
Um, I think we're going to keep seeing that.
I do think that there's been quite a big power shift over the past year
from companies setting the tone and setting all the rules to individuals.
now Um, it's, it's kind of up to you.
Like what you can, uh, like what you, what you want to get out of, work how you want
it to fit in with the rest of your life.
And I guess I'm completely biased on this because as somebody who's been a
remote worker for such a long time and the digital nomad, I really believe that
people should be able to sort of have the freedom to define their own lives.
Um, and that work should fit into that rather than be the kind of
leading force that defines Absolutely everything else that you're able to do.
Isabelle Roughol: It's funny.
Um, yeah, you're absolutely right.
I feel like a pandemic has just been like this kind of like watershed where
a lot of things that were brewing, you know, we're just accelerated, which
is true in a lot of, in loving areas.
Um, but I, you know, it's funny cause it's a decision that I made just before
the pandemic, uh, for, for myself to, um, leave a corporate job and, you know,
kind of figure things out on my own.
And um, so many people now are coming to me being like, oh, how did you do this?
Like, why.
Uh, you know, give me some pointers and everything.
And you're talking about the difficulty of managing remotely, uh, hit me up
because I did that for years with hiring and managing, I think we'll
do another, like another life because there are many, many, uh, You know,
tips and tricks for doing that.
But I think the fundamental one is, trust.
Um, like the old world of work, if you're still thinking I'm a
manager, therefore I'm the boss therefore I tell you what you do.
That's never going to work in a distributed or remote or hybrid world.
Right?
Like you first, you got to empower the individual.
You gotta hire people that you can trust that, you know, are, smart
and are going to do the right thing And you just gotta let go of the
illusion of control because you have.
none
Lauren Razavi: tastefully.
I actually said to a client recently, um, you know, like if you can't trust your
workers to get the work done and kind of like handle their own hours, et cetera,
uh, then like the problem that you have is not really about getting people back
to the office and working set hours.
The problem you have is that you're not actually building trust with
the people that you're employing.
Um, I think that's, that's really fundamental because without.
You get very, very toxic company culture.
And I think that's applicable whether it's in an office or in a virtual environment.
Yeah.
I'm
Isabelle Roughol: loving what I'm saying here.
I'm learning how to make comments, show up on the screen.
This is really cool.
Um, so I think you're absolutely right.
I'm.
The human interaction, the human element is super important.
Um, I think where a lot of organizations, um, are, are wrong is, um, when they
think, oh, we're just going to go, um, distributed or remote to like save money.
Cause yeah, you're not, uh, you know, you're not paying for real estate.
You're not paying for an office, but you better have a really good travel budget.
Like right now, obviously.
Uh, it's not possible in a lot of places for a lot of reason, but when I was
building my, my global team, um, you know, we, I first, when I started out
before I was a manager, um, we were a much smaller team and my boss was in
New York and I was in Paris at the time.
And, um, I had a quarterly trip.
Part of the deal.
I was in New York every two, three months, because I had to, especially
in the beginning when you don't really know people, I had to gel with them.
Uh, and every is also like about motivation and inspiration.
Every trip kind of charged me up for the next three months
and like really motivated me.
Cause it can be hard to be kind of isolated.
And then when I built my own team, same, you know, I mean, yeah, I did a
lot of interviewing hiring remotely.
Um, but.
You know, I try to go and visit the offices too.
We would find like a central city that we could all, uh, join in.
And then we would have, um, yearly kind of offsite, like big, you know,
everyone like 50 of us together.
Um, you know, socializing, you know, working, but also just getting
to know each other as people.
I think that's super simple.
Um,
Lauren Razavi: I totally agree.
I think it's, um, it's a bit of a nuance that's being missed in a
lot of the conversation about, um, the switch to remote right now.
It's like, just because you may not have the same level of office
space as before doesn't mean that there's no in-person interaction.
It just sort of means that you have to reassess what the value and the
purpose of those interactions are.
So I think a really good example is, um, the company automatic, uh, who.
Uh, founded what pro they're the creators behind, uh, what press.com?
Um, those guys organize a grand meetup, I think is the language that they use,
but they bring together all 1500 of their employees who are based in something
like 70 countries around the world.
They bring them together in one place.
And then that's a very sort of intensive in-person experience, a sort of company
retreat, um, which obviously costs a lot of money, but also delivers a lot
of value because, uh, these team members are able to kind of come together in
person, have a really like pleasant social time while also kind of getting to know
one another, um, more professionally.
Uh, and then when they kind of go away, when they go back to home or less kind of
remote work environment, those relations.
Are a lot stronger.
You're able to remember sort of have these shared memories of that
time at dinner or when somebody had too many glasses of wine.
Um, and I think that side of things is really, really important and I'll just,
um, I'm going to keep like cheerleading for get lab, um, because they truly,
really like doing everything right.
I think, um, but uh, those guys make available, um, a fund so that members of
their teams are able to, um, basically go through a small, a short price.
Uh, and then be able to be funded by the company to go visit a
colleague in another city or another country and things like that.
I think, um, companies can sometimes be a bit resistant to it because they envision
absolutely everybody taking a trip every other week, but in practice, like people
don't want to travel all the time.
They're probably just going to take a couple hours.
Pay.
Yeah.
And then that's, again, going to be really, really meaningful for sort
of having that, um, that colleague relationship that I think a lot
of people, which is completely understandable after the last year and
a half, uh, seeing remote work as an incredibly isolating and lonely thing.
Whereas I think that the kind of next stage, if we say we've done remote
work during a pandemic, the next stage is going to be distributed work.
I think it's just a really, really exciting time to be an employee or to
be running a team or running a business.
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah.
Um, like Margaret is saying, you know, it started remote enough to six months.
I've only met two of my coworkers.
One was in a parking lot.
Um, man, I, I cannot imagine starting a gig remotely right now, like props
to you because that is really hard.
And that's something that, um, you know, when I, again, when I was.
Uh, remotely.
The one thing that we always did is like, week one is in-person onboarding.
You know, I fly to them, they fly to me.
We fly to somewhere in comment in New York or whatever, but, but we are, um, getting
together and that's really important.
So starting remotely, um, is hard, but I love what you're saying about like,
like meeting someone in a parking lot.
That's actually something, um, I've noticed quite a few people doing.
Um, you know, during the pandemic it's yeah.
The offices were closed, uh, but you, you could still, you know, have
several people, especially in big cities from the company in the same
city, and there's nothing stopping you, you know, meeting for a walk
in a park or something like that.
Um, what I do like about, you know, not having to work in the office and I noticed
something that a lot of people are big fans of is, you know, working in coffee
shops, working in coworking spaces, working in, um, I don't know if you
experienced that when you were at Google.
One thing that frustrated me frustrated me working in tech is that it felt, um,
Divorced from the community because a lot of the people and that's, you know,
that's a whole other issue, but a lot of the people who work in tech kind
of have the same backgrounds, the same age, um, you know, the same interests.
And so the chances that you're going to meet, uh, Older person,
an immigrant, a, uh, someone who works in a completely different
field, um, end up being pretty low.
And since you're working like all the time, and you're having
your meals in the office as well, because food is provided, um, you're
just, yeah, you're in that bubble.
And that disconnects you from your users, from your customers, from your
community, from the people you're doing this work for in the first place.
Lauren Razavi: Hm.
Yeah, I have to say, um, my experience was pretty different,
but that's probably because I was never in an office for Google.
Um, so I was working, uh, first of all, like my first contract for
Google, um, gave me a very strange impression of the world because, um,
I was kind of fresh out of university.
It was a project being run by two.
But us distributed women leaders, uh, within the company in different locations.
Um, and we were basically able to, um, to just collaborate in
this distributed fashion, I guess this would have been like 2014.
Um, but we were able to kind of collaborate in this distributed fashion,
um, which to me felt incredibly intuitive.
Um, and so we were kind of able to, uh, to do that.
And the team was very, very diverse and very, very international.
Um, later on, when I was leading a team, I made a real conscious
effort to be working with people across borders and across cultures.
Um, because I was running creative teams and creativity.
Definitely it doesn't just remain within one nation's borders.
Um, so yeah, I think that for me, although I.
I sort of heard from, from colleagues, uh, have, have worked from the big tech
companies about these kinds of experiences of really like living at the office.
Um, I would say that my experience was very, very different because I was a
remote worker throughout, throughout that.
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah.
Um, yeah, that's great.
I, um, I hate to be that person who's now going to complain about like the free
gym and the free meals and everything.
It was wonderful.
And the commute, the company was wonderful.
The people I met there were wonderful.
There is, there is that sense that, you know, after a while that you're,
yeah, you're in a bubble really.
Um, and, um, and it's good to get out.
Um, I'm at was making another, uh, good point.
And then we have a question from Martella, um, On on, uh, young people
kind of needing, I mean, he's talking about students, but you can kind
of extend that as well to younger professionals needing the structure
and the discipline of an office.
And I also think about them, like just needing to be able to
absorb, um, the codes of the, of working life and the mentorship.
Like, how do you, how do you get that as a really young, uh, worker?
Um, if you're not in the physical presence of other people,
if you're just behind you.
Lauren Razavi: I think it really comes down to whether the company
that you're working for has in fact designed their distributed systems.
Well, whether in fact you're going to get that structure and discipline,
but I think people just instinctively think comes from the office, but does
not always, depending on like the company you're working for, but if it's
a distributed company and they have.
Processes in place, you will get exactly the same value, um, that you
would expect from the office in that way of the structure of the discipline,
um, of kind of meeting people, um, and learning the kind of ropes.
Um, I really don't think that changes in a natural environment.
I just think that it's really grounded.
Um, because previous generations had that experience that somehow,
you know, the office water cooler is where all the best ideas come from.
Um, and I guess my response to that is like, there are an awful lot of
water coolers on the internet and you can be in your pajamas while
you, uh, while you access them.
Um, that's, that's a very, uh, sort of remote first mentality.
But in fact, um, I can't remember.
I was recommending this to you.
The other day is about that.
There's, um, there's a book.
I think it's cool managing talent in the networked age.
And it's a re like Reid Hoffman of LinkedIn is one of the,
um, the authors of that book.
And in it, they essentially argued that, um, the future of careers,
uh, is going to be more about the kind of networks you cultivate as an
individual, rather than about, um, working for a particular company and
sort of playing by that one company.
I really think that's true and it really reflects my experience.
Like I've been a remote worker since 2010.
I've been a digital nomad since 2013.
And yeah, I have not a tool struggled with not having a physical
presence in an office for more than, you know, the occasional
week, maybe, uh, every year or two.
Um, in fact, I've really been able to.
Take advantage and I guess not get distracted by some of the distractions,
the office politics, um, and just really kind of forge my own path.
And I'd really encourage anyone who is worried about that.
Particularly younger people to just stop kind of, um, stuck kind
of like thinking about the next.
And just stop thinking about how you can embed yourself in communities
and industries and things that you'll really passionate and excited about.
I think there's a huge opportunity for a more kind of bespoke individual
to you, uh, career in the future.
Um, and yeah, if you're, if your current company really sucks at remote work,
like choose another thing that right
Isabelle Roughol: now.
Yeah.
And, um, and there are.
As you said, like the, your, your, uh, professional activity networking,
your learning, doesn't have to be either within the company that
employs you, that you work for.
Um, you know, there are professional events, there are networks, or, you
know, in London and parts of hacks hackers, which is a group before,
um, people who work kind of at intersection of media and technology,
which is, which is my sweet spot.
Um, there are, you know, there's just a lot of different organizations
that, that you can join and you can have that physical.
Yeah.
Um, interaction, uh, you know, like what, what Khalid was saying, which is,
uh, uh, you know, that the socializing aspect, um, can be challenging.
When you're working, um, uh, remotely, uh, but yes, the comment is too long
from the screen, but yes, you have slack, you have activities, you have things
that you can do in person, for sure.
Lauren Razavi: If I can just, um, add something that I think something, uh,
that, you know, whether you're a new employee, an old employee, whether
you're a manager, whether you're a boss.
I really think that something everyone should be thinking about
right now with the teams is designing rituals to kind of facilitate.
That social side.
And now that sounds like it's just going to be absolutely terrible.
But the reason that I'm actually saying it to everybody here is because I don't
think those things work very well.
Just as a top-down kind of thing.
Like P like the people who run the company, telling
you how it's going to work.
I think a lot of it builds from the Boston.
It's more like grassroots.
Um, and so for example, um, arranging like a monthly town hall, Where
everybody can kind of get together for an hour and maybe there's some
kind of structure, but the main idea is so that anyone can bring anything
they're struggling with, to the table on like a company level or organizing a
couple of hours each week where you're doing co-working sprints via zoom.
So you, a bunch of you can log in together.
Someone does a bit of an introduction, um, and you just kind of worked
together and you know what, you perhaps know what you're working on and kind
of can collaborate live a little bit like you might in the office.
Um, these kinds of things can just really, really help to
actually build company culture.
And . When I've worked, um, on like loads of different projects,
this is like really important.
If you aren't meeting in person is to still kind of understand what your
check-in points are and to have those more informal and kind of casual interactions,
um, day to day or week to week as well.
So like, rather than feeling bad, if you may, to something that's really
not working, like really feel empowered to suggest something and perhaps.
Oh, so be the one who sets things up and then rotate running it amongst colleagues,
Isabelle Roughol: there was a, you reminded me of, um, one, one such
ritual that I absolutely loved.
It was in person, but it could absolutely work out remotely.
Uh, and this was what, um, pulse, which was a startup
that LinkedIn acquired back in.
Gosh.
13, I think.
Um, and then when he first joined the company, um, I wasn't one of their
all hands in, uh, in San Francisco.
And, um, they had this tradition, uh, where kind of everyone could
speak up and say, you know, whatever that was on their mind, but it
was, um, I like, I wish I wonder.
And it was like the, the sentence had to start by.
I like, or I wish or wonder, and it just like created this, like, um,
Kind of amazing a brainstorm where people like, you know, I like, you
know, this new product feature.
I wonder why, you know, we're not doing this whatever.
And, um, it just, I was such so wonderful.
Uh, and it, you know, it's a simple ritual, but it just gives people like
that framework to rather than just say, Hey, tell us what you think,
which can be a little bit like, oh,
Lauren Razavi: Maybe just one more thing to add to that.
Um, since I know what both members of a London writers Salum, I think those
guys are really interesting example of sort of building, um, remote or
industry infrastructure, actually outside the bounds of the company.
So if I can say really, really briefly, um, essentially at these awesome people
who run Lyndon right to Salah and, um, Matt and Pearl, when the whole world
went into lockdown last year, they decided to kind of move, I think what
were like monthly events online and they started writer's hour, which you
can check out on writers, iowa.com.
And basically it's a free writing spring.
At, I think it's 8:00 AM and like four different times zones, every weekday and
it's grown so that there are hundreds of people, um, who are attending
these, these sessions every single day.
Um, and so this is kind of like in my view, a writing community infrastructure,
um, and it's really, really cool to just kind of have these things in a remote
context that you can show up to and that you can kind of feel in, in community.
Um, around.
So I think the kind of takeaway, uh, the reason that I bring this up as an X, as
an example is because if it doesn't feel right to do that within your current
team or your current company, as in, come up with a ritual and start something
also look more widely actually at your industry and have a think about whether
you could do something like writers.
For the marketing community or for the tech community.
Um, and really like, don't be afraid to experiment.
Like we're in a playground of experimentation right now.
Nobody knows what the hell they're doing.
And those of us who've been the remote working for a decade.
So everything's up for grabs.
Like
Isabelle Roughol: it changes so quickly, right?
Because the technology changes.
And so what was, uh, you know, I studied.
Uh, working remotely, you know, like you, even before LinkedIn, I was,
I was working on a project between the Figaro and the New York times.
So, you know, newsroom in piracy, Paris in newsroom, in New York, that was in 2009.
Oh my gosh, we weren't doing zooms.
Like, and so, um, but still somehow we, we know we managed to work.
So the, the, the technology is going to keep changing and therefore the ways
that we work are going to keep changing.
Uh, we have tons of great, like great questions coming in.
I can't even keep up with, uh, so we're going to go really quick.
Uh, fire round, like really quickly, um, lightning round, sorry.
Um, Marcella Marcella who's uh, hi, who's a member of borderline.
So you can do like her and support the work@borderlinepod.com slash subscribe.
That was by my a plug.
Um, any tips on how to fix remotely?
What was.
Broken in the office, right?
If you just take a dysfunctional team in the office and you just make it a
home team, they're still dysfunctional.
Um, I think, and then I'm going to, uh, send it to you, Lauren.
But I think one thing that's interesting is actually.
It's a great diagnostic tool.
What was broken about your team?
Was it because it was in the office and the office wasn't
working or is it something else that, you know, that remains when
you're no longer in the office?
Like, what was it that was broken?
So I, you know, being able to kind of, uh, change the environment, that's
kind of your variable in the experiment to kind of understand, uh, better.
What, what is going on?
Um, Lauren, do you have suggestions?
Lauren Razavi: Yeah, I totally agree with, um, I totally agree with that
with your assessment there, Isabel.
Um, I think maybe the only thing that I would add is that I truly think
that, um, some companies, uh, Like not, you cannot fix them essentially.
Like I think that, uh, if you, it really depends, it depends on the exact
nature of the dysfunction, of course.
But, um, I wouldn't say that, um, a team that was already dysfunctional
in the office and is sort of trying to translate exactly what they were doing.
Into a virtual environment.
I don't think there's, there's going to be a change there.
Um, I do think there's an opportunity for employees.
Um, and any team member, really bit to just kind of like step
forward and say, Hey, can we have some honest conversations about.
Working and what's not working.
And maybe actually the tend to remote work gives you a bit more of an
ability to diva because it's like the reason to stop the conversation.
Whereas perhaps a couple of years ago that wouldn't have been possible
because where is the space to, to kind of talk about the dysfunction.
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah.
And you have a, your sponsor uh, Metalla from, uh, McKayla, uh, as well.
Um, yeah, suggesting, you know, you need to understand the diversity of
each of your team members and, uh, yeah.
That's something that maybe you weren't able to do in the office because there
were too many people around and, uh, it could get awkward, but you can
actually have a lot more one-on-one conversations and understand kind
of where everybody's coming from.
Um, when you do that, when you do that remotely, and again, if you're in the
same city, you can just go out for coffee.
But if you're not, um, you know, you can do that via zoom and whatnot.
I mean, we do, we do everything on Cigna.
Now we do therapy on zoom.
We certainly can do, uh, you know, one-on-one with a manager.
Uh, in fact, uh, that's I did for a long time, I'm going to take a couple more
questions, send your final questions.
And I'm realizing we're already a half an hour, but there's so much
good stuff here that I'm happy to continue unless you need to run.
Um, Lauren.
All right.
Let's, let's take a little bit more time.
Um, I like this cache this question from a Manuel because, uh, how can I
present myself as a credible person?
If I'm to work from Ghana for someone abroad?
Uh, I mean, your being from Ghana doesn't make you any less
credible than a, than anyone else.
I mean, the beauty of remote distributed work is, um, is that
you can do it from anywhere now.
The challenges.
Find, um, is like, even if some companies are increasingly either open to remote
work, but they still want to hire, um, in a country where they have a legal
structure where they have an office where they have, uh, where they're
incorporated, uh, you know, for tax reason for, uh, social insurance, social
benefits, everything kind of reason.
So that's, that might be the challenge.
I know Lauren, you were telling me the other day about some interesting
innovations that are happening in that.
Lauren Razavi: Yeah, sorry, I'll try and keep it brief, but essentially that
a lot of new startups popping up at the moment, um, which are targeting companies
that want to recruit people from overseas and helping them make sure that they are
contracting with people as freelances in a completely like compliant way.
So this like intermediary platform, uh, for an example, I think one that
I've come across is, is Hey portal.
Dot IO, H E Y portal.io.
Um, that's just one example.
There are many of them now, but essentially these, uh, these companies
are popping up so that they are able to, um, sort of be the intermediary
step between people like Emmanuelle and perhaps like a European or an
American company, um, who wants to be able to work with him, but actually
don't want to set up a local office.
Um, this kind of stuff basically makes it so that a company can sort of run
a global payroll, um, of freelances, um, and be able to kind of like, uh,
comply with all of the local regulations in whichever country somebody is in.
Um, one thing I would say just a really practical level is, um, be really,
really careful with American job applications in particular, because
a lot of them ask you for that.
Lots and lots of information, lots and lots of time and energy.
Um, and then don't even stay anywhere, but that only open to like us citizens.
Um, I've actually been caught out with that, uh, with, uh,
the media organization before.
So I always want to like warn people against it.
Like, there's nothing wrong with like getting on the phone or sending
an email to just try and clarify before you send it an application.
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah.
I, I had a friend who like just kind of went through the whole
process and was like, Hey, by the way, I don't have to FISA that.
You're going to need, like, are you going to sponsor me?
I went through the whole process and like, at the very end, they were
like, oh, we can't make this work.
You know, legally, um, and often that's because the hiring managers,
you know, they want who they want for their team, for their project.
They seek your skills are amazing.
They have no idea how immigration works.
If they're not immigrants themselves, they've never encountered it.
They have no idea how complex and restrictive it is.
Um, the way that we understand.
Um, and so they just want to go for what they want to go for in
like the very end of the process when HR is drawing up the paper.
So like, Nevermind.
Um, so yeah, pick up the phone cause you don't want to waste your time.
Like your time is precious.
Your job searching time is precious.
If anyone thinks you're not credible coming from Ghana.
Oh my God.
You do not want to work for them.
Like that sounds dreadful.
Um, all right.
I'm going to like go through will quick.
This is a great comment, which is too long for the screen, but
check out the common stream.
Cause there's some great stuff coming up.
I'm just.
Pull out the questions.
Um, there's a question.
I see a question, mark.
I bring it up.
Um, how are people managing their teams back to the office?
That's the whole point.
We don't want them back to the office.
Do we.
Lauren Razavi: Yeah.
And so the second part of the question they investing in remote
software with COVID and mine too.
So I do think that a lot of companies have sort of already made that shift
in terms of like, if your company didn't have a zoom subscription
in March 20, 20, or April.
Yeah.
They probably got one.
I think we're going to see a lot of that stuff stick around.
Um, and that does open up new opportunities.
Even if some people do go back to an office to work in new ways to work
with a broader kind of cross section of people, um, perhaps globally.
But yeah, I think that, um, in my view, like, uh, getting the teams back to
the office, I literally trying to go back to what things were like in 2019.
Um, doesn't make a lot of business sense.
Like it's probably not going to get the best out of your teams.
Um, it's probably not like the best approach if you want to kind of retain
your talented workers and make sure that they're happy and make sure that
you are competitive in this new realm.
Isabelle Roughol: One.
Um, solution that we haven't really talked about all that much is hybrid.
Right.
So you're partly back in the office.
Partly not, I don't know.
I'm a little skeptical on that because if it's another, um, the company, was it,
um, some big tech Silicon valley company and it was like, oh, you know, people are
going to come back on Monday, Tuesday.
So state I'm like, how is that any more flexible, you know, you're
still putting a kind of a rigid structure in place that does.
Take into account people's, you know, kind of personal, um, situation.
So yeah, you have to be in the office less, but you're still restricted
in a way that a lot of people are just not really willing to do.
Like, we don't have the whistle at the top of the factory telling
us when to come in anymore.
Like that's, that's.
Lauren Razavi: Yeah, I think, um, it, it sort of opens the, uh, opens the door
for that to be quite a big problem in terms of presenteeism as well, because
if you're working two or three days a week at the office, um, then, uh, you may
well find that the managers who really wanted you to come back to the office are
actually quite insistent that you are.
Staying until you've finished your work on those days.
Like I'm, I'm hearing kind of stories from, from different
friends around the world.
It's kind of being told they need to work from the office for two days a week.
And that ends up being two 12 hour days in the office.
And then the rest of the time, a sort of normal working day from home and
that, but is hybrid failure like that.
The polar opposite of what a successful hybrid work model looks like.
Um, and yeah, I think it's really important that, uh, employees,
that team members are in fact, like holding their companies to account
on that because, uh, it is going to just kind of breed a toxic culture.
It's going to make it much, much worse human experience to work for that company.
And even if you decide that you're going, if you're not going to stand
for it, I think we all kind of have this obligation to educate patients.
On what it is that we want as individual humans right now.
Um, and there's definitely an opportunity for that, uh, on companies
that are misstepping, uh, in terms of that, that return to the office.
Isabelle Roughol: Mm.
And that's true too, when you're working from home or you're working from.
Uh, you know, coworking space, whatever, but especially if you're
working from home, which is, did they stretches and stretches because you
know, you wake up you're right at your computer, you know, you don't
really have that commute, whatever.
So, uh, and, and it's easy to just.
Not have that disconnect from work to home because often that's
literally like sitting on a different side of a couch or something like,
um, so, so it is definitely, you know, something to keep in mind.
I think we're all still, you know, both managers and police self-employed as well.
Uh, that's certainly my experience at the moment.
Well, you know, we're all kind of figuring out what the, where
the, where the boundaries are.
I like the idea that I know something you talk about a lot at like, you
know, forget work-life balance is more about like harmony and how did
it to kind of kind of fit together.
But that's often used as an excuse to just be like, oh, sure.
I can work at 11:00 PM because, you know, I took a break at 2:00 PM to
pick up my kids or go to the gym.
Like, it's not kind of where, um, I want to go.
I realize we're we're at 40 minutes.
I think we're going to close it for today.
Anything else that you want to.
Touch on Lauren.
Lauren Razavi: I think I just want to respond to, um, Mikhail's question,
which is how many hours a week will be ideal in the hybrid workspace.
Um, because it's actually a really important point about distributed
work is that, uh, we should stop thinking about work in terms of time.
And instead think about output.
So what, are the goals that you need to achieve and how quickly, not how
many hours are you going to work?
How many hours you work is an input and what you actually get done is the output.
Um, and a lot of asynchronous.
Um, communicators.
A lot of distributed companies, um, are actually really, really bullish
on, uh, having no interest in, in the number of hours that you're spending.
I, if you're, if you're being paid for 40 hours a week, but you're
getting your work done perfectly and 10, that's fine for them.
And they're not going to argue with it.
Um, I think was just a kind of useful framing.
The final thing that I'd just like to say is I'm very bad at self promotion, but I
have a newsletter if you'd like keep in touch and buddy, uh, you'll find me at.
L Ross that's L a Zed or Z for the Americans, uh, dot dot com.
Um, that's totally free of charge.
So please feel free to, uh, sign up and drop me an email sometime
and reply if, uh, if you fancy
Isabelle Roughol: time.
Absolutely.
It is a great newsletter.
I read it every week.
Um, so strong recommend.
Um, and to your point, um, one, one kind of final point I wanted to make as well.
I'm aware that, you know, a lot of the conversation we're having is around, um,
professional kind of jobs, which can be more self guided, which, uh, where you
have a little bit more, um, freedom.
Um, then, uh, some of the, um, more hourly job, which again are
based two things on that one.
I saw that, um, LinkedIn recently, uh, did some, uh, put out some
research around kind of the fastest growing remote work, um, in.
The United States, I think it was, but, but it applies really
everywhere and it's not all, uh, you know, it's not all professional.
Desk-based, it's, you know, there there's a lot of other things.
Um, the other, you know, when you were pointing out, you know, not
doing by the hour, reminded me.
It has been, the system has been, uh, for decades in Marsay, in the south
of France with, um, waste collection so that the garbage collectors
are paid, not by the hour, but by.
When is the garbage collected, and if you can do it and if you can do it
in 10 hours, Why we're just going to leave you on your truck for another 12.
Like, just so you're, you've put in the hours.
That's ridiculous.
Now would that, unfortunately in Marsay that's often meant that
the job has half-assed because then they could get out early.
So there is that question of quality control.
Um, but if you fix that, then it's absolutely, um, something, something
that can be done that just reminded me of, I'm also terrible at self
promotion, but I'm going to do it anyway.
Um, you, my work is@borderlinepod.com.
You can find the podcast, which, uh, just had a great episode.
If I'm a see, saw myself come out yesterday, uh, which I
loved, there's a newsletter that you can subscribe to there.
A lot of it is free.
You can support it, uh, with a paid membership.
Actually, a lot of it is free and, uh, and, uh, yeah, I
hope you'll, you'll join us.
There.
There's a community of, of global citizens talking about work and
life and immigration and all these things that happen in the
spaces between, uh, countries and cultures, where a lot of us live now.
Including the two of us.
All right.
Well, thanks everyone.
We're gonna sign off.
Um, we'll be back.
We'll be back next week.
Same time.
We're going to keep doing this, um, uh, throughout the summer, minus a
few weeks where we'll be on holiday, but, um, we'll, we'll keep talking
about working across borders.
So stay tuned for the day.
And
Lauren Razavi: feel free, feel free to get in touch with us.
If there's something in particular you'd like to hear us talk about,
because I would very happy to do that.
Totally
Isabelle Roughol: drop it in the comments.
My email is ISA isa@borderlinepod.com.
Um, you know, get in touch.
Lauren Razavi: Thanks guys.
Bye