1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,030 Isabelle Roughol: Hey, it's Isabelle. 2 00:00:01,049 --> 00:00:03,389 This is a little bit extra for the podcast feed. 3 00:00:03,570 --> 00:00:06,420 This is actually the audio of a LinkedIn livestream. 4 00:00:06,659 --> 00:00:14,020 I just did with Lauren Razavi, who is a digital nomad, author, expert 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,494 activist, about working across borders. 6 00:00:16,924 --> 00:00:21,985 And she and I are friends and together we have something like 20 years of experience 7 00:00:21,985 --> 00:00:27,134 of working remotely and across borders and in a distributed or remote team. 8 00:00:27,395 --> 00:00:30,625 And so we got into what that means and how you can make it work in 9 00:00:30,625 --> 00:00:34,565 your organizations now that so many people are working remotely and want 10 00:00:34,565 --> 00:00:36,265 to stick with it past the pandemic. 11 00:00:36,535 --> 00:00:39,745 So that's something we did on LinkedIn Live. 12 00:00:40,315 --> 00:00:44,725 So you can see the video as well on LinkedIn or on YouTube, or you 13 00:00:44,725 --> 00:00:46,315 can just listen to the audio here. 14 00:00:46,495 --> 00:00:49,345 And if you're interested in this kind of stuff, we're going to be doing 15 00:00:49,345 --> 00:00:51,175 another one next week, same time. 16 00:00:51,175 --> 00:00:55,075 So that's Wednesday July 14th, 1:00 PM london time. 17 00:00:55,075 --> 00:00:58,525 So that's 2:00 PM in Europe and that's 8:00 AM in New York. 18 00:00:58,775 --> 00:01:04,045 So look to my LinkedIn, look to the newsletter, and all my social feeds to 19 00:01:04,045 --> 00:01:05,995 get the links or the YouTube channel. 20 00:01:06,295 --> 00:01:11,045 So again, that's me and Lauren Razavi talking about remote and distributed 21 00:01:11,065 --> 00:01:12,715 and hybrid work and how to make it work. 22 00:01:12,715 --> 00:01:16,735 And next week, we'll be talking about how to build a global career, the 23 00:01:16,735 --> 00:01:20,005 thing that you need to think about, the things that you need to think about, 24 00:01:20,215 --> 00:01:24,980 uh, right now, if you're thinking about transforming your career and taking 25 00:01:24,980 --> 00:01:28,880 it in a direction that gives you a little bit more freedom of location. 26 00:01:29,190 --> 00:01:33,240 So that's what we'll be getting into next week since apparently everyone is 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,050 quitting their job right now because they don't want to go back to the office. 28 00:01:36,350 --> 00:01:36,680 All right. 29 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:37,820 I'll let you listen. 30 00:01:38,330 --> 00:01:39,140 And I'll talk to you soon. 31 00:01:42,093 --> 00:01:43,053 Hello? 32 00:01:43,083 --> 00:01:44,223 Hello everyone. 33 00:01:44,253 --> 00:01:46,533 We are live, I believe. 34 00:01:46,563 --> 00:01:50,643 Hi, I'm Isabelle Roughol and I am joined today by Lauren. 35 00:01:50,643 --> 00:01:51,273 Hi Lauren. 36 00:01:51,303 --> 00:01:51,843 How are you? 37 00:01:52,313 --> 00:01:53,183 Lauren Razavi: Hi, Isabelle. 38 00:01:53,213 --> 00:01:53,963 I'm doing very well. 39 00:01:53,963 --> 00:01:54,533 Thank you. 40 00:01:54,683 --> 00:01:56,483 Thanks for, thanks for having me here. 41 00:01:56,813 --> 00:01:58,853 Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, this is so much more fun to be doing 42 00:01:58,853 --> 00:02:02,633 this, uh, with company rather than, uh, rather than on my own. 43 00:02:02,643 --> 00:02:05,758 I find so much better than a monologue. 44 00:02:05,778 --> 00:02:08,508 um, introduce yourself to, to get us going, I guess. 45 00:02:09,998 --> 00:02:10,298 Lauren Razavi: Yeah. 46 00:02:10,298 --> 00:02:14,378 So my name is Lauren Razavi and I'm a writer and activist. 47 00:02:14,408 --> 00:02:17,348 Um, I'm currently writing a book about digital nomads, 48 00:02:17,378 --> 00:02:18,908 which is called global natives. 49 00:02:18,968 --> 00:02:24,038 Uh, and that's coming out in September and I'm a tech policy fellow at the Tony 50 00:02:24,038 --> 00:02:28,478 Blair Institute for global change, looking at remote work and the future of cities. 51 00:02:29,703 --> 00:02:30,873 Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, congratulations on that. 52 00:02:30,873 --> 00:02:32,703 I thought that was a, that was a recent announcement. 53 00:02:32,703 --> 00:02:33,453 That's really cool. 54 00:02:33,803 --> 00:02:37,233 And I look forward to reading the book and definitely having you on 55 00:02:37,233 --> 00:02:38,613 the podcast when that comes out. 56 00:02:39,123 --> 00:02:42,933 Um, and I'm, I mean, if you're following me on LinkedIn, uh, on 57 00:02:42,933 --> 00:02:46,413 YouTube, you kind of already know who I am, but, I'm Isabelle Roughol, I 58 00:02:46,413 --> 00:02:51,538 am the founder, producer, one woman behind the one woman show that is 59 00:02:51,598 --> 00:02:56,728 a borderline, which has podcast and newsletter or community, uh, media for, 60 00:02:57,118 --> 00:03:01,468 um, defiant global citizens covering kind of lives, lived across borders. 61 00:03:01,888 --> 00:03:09,028 Um, and I was in my previous life, the, um, international editor at LinkedIn on 62 00:03:09,028 --> 00:03:14,208 this very platform, um, hence, uh, being here quite a bit and, and having this 63 00:03:14,208 --> 00:03:17,898 experience of managing um, a remote team. 64 00:03:17,928 --> 00:03:20,928 And so I was, as I was saying in a post announcing this, uh, the two 65 00:03:20,928 --> 00:03:24,918 of us together have like a couple of decades of experience of doing all the 66 00:03:24,918 --> 00:03:27,768 things people have been doing during a pandemic, you know, working remotely 67 00:03:27,768 --> 00:03:29,058 and on the zoom and all of that. 68 00:03:29,058 --> 00:03:31,848 And, and around across time zones and borders. 69 00:03:32,208 --> 00:03:35,448 Um, so that's what we're going to get into today. 70 00:03:35,868 --> 00:03:39,498 Um, let's start by defining some terms and I want to say hello to everyone. 71 00:03:39,498 --> 00:03:43,548 I can't even keep up with the chat, but I love seeing everyone mentioning the 72 00:03:43,548 --> 00:03:45,108 country that they're from like Turkey. 73 00:03:45,618 --> 00:03:46,638 Pakistan. 74 00:03:47,058 --> 00:03:48,708 Um, that's awesome. 75 00:03:48,888 --> 00:03:50,208 So hello everyone. 76 00:03:50,208 --> 00:03:53,418 By the way, we'll be taking questions to like drop them in the stream. 77 00:03:53,478 --> 00:03:55,878 Uh, we'll absolutely be answering them. 78 00:03:56,208 --> 00:03:58,668 Um, Cameroon Bangladesh. 79 00:03:58,668 --> 00:03:59,238 It's so cool. 80 00:03:59,568 --> 00:04:01,878 Um, so yeah, right. 81 00:04:02,148 --> 00:04:02,718 Lauren Razavi: Sorry. 82 00:04:02,958 --> 00:04:04,618 Super borderless crowd we have 83 00:04:04,618 --> 00:04:04,788 Isabelle Roughol: with them. 84 00:04:04,818 --> 00:04:06,998 I know, I know Somali land, man. 85 00:04:06,998 --> 00:04:07,598 That's cool. 86 00:04:07,598 --> 00:04:12,668 That's like, uh, one of those like countries that are, um, are, 87 00:04:12,968 --> 00:04:16,568 you know, countries, there's a whole documentary about that. 88 00:04:16,568 --> 00:04:18,308 It's really fascinating places that don't exist. 89 00:04:18,938 --> 00:04:20,768 Um, all right. 90 00:04:20,768 --> 00:04:21,068 So. 91 00:04:22,068 --> 00:04:26,058 Uh, Danielle, I love these, uh, seeing these followers, uh, come back. 92 00:04:26,088 --> 00:04:26,328 All right. 93 00:04:26,328 --> 00:04:27,738 So let's get into our topic. 94 00:04:27,768 --> 00:04:30,258 Let's um, define some terms. 95 00:04:30,678 --> 00:04:31,848 What do we mean? 96 00:04:31,968 --> 00:04:35,478 Uh, you're the one that taught me the difference between remote and distributed. 97 00:04:35,478 --> 00:04:38,058 And now there's a new word hybrid as everywhere. 98 00:04:38,148 --> 00:04:39,138 Can you define what those are? 99 00:04:39,688 --> 00:04:40,558 Lauren Razavi: Yeah, sure. 100 00:04:40,558 --> 00:04:44,278 So I kind of think to put the human face on this, it probably makes sense 101 00:04:44,278 --> 00:04:48,478 to talk about how my experience in your experience is a little bit different. 102 00:04:48,538 --> 00:04:53,968 So, uh, you were working, uh, for LinkedIn and kind of building this 103 00:04:53,968 --> 00:04:58,678 international team, um, and very much working in the remote context, but if 104 00:04:58,678 --> 00:05:02,398 I'm correct, like you had colleagues in offices around the world, right? 105 00:05:02,778 --> 00:05:03,318 Yes. 106 00:05:03,318 --> 00:05:03,628 Isabelle Roughol: Yes. 107 00:05:03,628 --> 00:05:06,558 So often, um, editors would be kind of alone. 108 00:05:07,383 --> 00:05:11,193 As an editor in the office, but there were other functions around. 109 00:05:11,193 --> 00:05:14,853 So they weren't working, you know, from home from, you know, the company was, was 110 00:05:14,853 --> 00:05:16,653 present and had an office and all of that. 111 00:05:16,653 --> 00:05:21,543 But then our boss was in New York and the bulk of the organization 112 00:05:21,543 --> 00:05:22,563 was in the United States. 113 00:05:23,658 --> 00:05:24,108 Lauren Razavi: Cool. 114 00:05:24,198 --> 00:05:29,598 So, yeah, for me, when I was a managing editor for Google, um, and I did a 115 00:05:29,598 --> 00:05:32,988 couple of other roles for Google kind of over the years, but I was working, 116 00:05:33,048 --> 00:05:35,418 uh, as part of a distributed team. 117 00:05:35,778 --> 00:05:39,738 And essentially I think the difference is really in, uh, to be remote. 118 00:05:39,798 --> 00:05:43,068 You have to be remote from something, whereas distributed. 119 00:05:43,558 --> 00:05:48,628 Uh, is just kind of like remote by design, if you like is it's distributed by design. 120 00:05:48,658 --> 00:05:52,078 So the team that I was running and the teams that I've worked as part of 121 00:05:52,108 --> 00:05:54,208 in tech has been fully distributed. 122 00:05:54,358 --> 00:05:58,198 So there was no kind of like monitor sitting in the office, uh, sort of 123 00:05:58,198 --> 00:05:59,938 not located with the remote work. 124 00:06:00,623 --> 00:06:03,833 But instead of the entire team was completely distributed. 125 00:06:03,833 --> 00:06:07,883 So everybody was working from home or from their own co-working space. 126 00:06:08,123 --> 00:06:11,513 So I think this is a sort of an interesting thing for us to think about 127 00:06:11,513 --> 00:06:15,803 now, because there's been a lot of talk this past year about remote work for 128 00:06:15,803 --> 00:06:20,513 obvious reasons, but actually the move that I think businesses need to be making 129 00:06:20,543 --> 00:06:23,033 is towards more distributed structures. 130 00:06:23,333 --> 00:06:26,483 Um, meaning that you're sort of designing for the people who aren't in the room. 131 00:06:27,068 --> 00:06:31,778 Every single time, uh, you kind of make a decision, uh, or do something. 132 00:06:32,318 --> 00:06:36,518 And now, uh, with things sort of beginning to reopen, et cetera, we have 133 00:06:36,548 --> 00:06:41,918 the rise of hybrid work, which is sort of parts in the office and part remote. 134 00:06:42,038 --> 00:06:45,218 Um, and I think we're going to dig into that a little bit and 135 00:06:45,218 --> 00:06:49,088 kind of like the do's and don'ts, uh, in our conversation today. 136 00:06:49,178 --> 00:06:54,248 Um, but I think the biggest thing to be aware of, uh, is that remote. 137 00:06:54,963 --> 00:06:56,223 Um, so sorry. 138 00:06:56,403 --> 00:06:59,463 Remote suggests, uh, being remote from something. 139 00:06:59,643 --> 00:07:03,123 Distributed suggests that everyone's kind of on equal fitting. 140 00:07:03,183 --> 00:07:06,383 Uh, and that actually there, perhaps isn't an office that, uh, 141 00:07:06,383 --> 00:07:08,123 that people can gather in, I'm 142 00:07:08,123 --> 00:07:12,773 Isabelle Roughol: sensing a bit of a, um, preference in the way that you're 143 00:07:13,073 --> 00:07:15,413 in the way you're, you're describing. 144 00:07:15,743 --> 00:07:17,603 Why do you think that distributed as better than that? 145 00:07:18,213 --> 00:07:20,853 Or do you, that's kind of what I'm getting, but yeah. 146 00:07:21,253 --> 00:07:24,813 Lauren Razavi: Yeah, I definitely do because, um, I think remote is kind of 147 00:07:24,813 --> 00:07:27,453 this half step on the way to distributed. 148 00:07:27,483 --> 00:07:31,203 So we're kind of in this environment now where everybody is talking 149 00:07:31,203 --> 00:07:33,953 about remote work, but kind of not taking the conversation. 150 00:07:34,443 --> 00:07:37,533 Beyond that idea of not being located somewhere. 151 00:07:37,773 --> 00:07:41,223 Whereas if you think more about teams, if you think more about kind 152 00:07:41,223 --> 00:07:44,703 of redesigning and future-proofing businesses, uh, it's really a 153 00:07:44,703 --> 00:07:46,743 distributed mindset you need to have. 154 00:07:46,953 --> 00:07:50,853 So in practice, that means making sure that you're kind of redesigning 155 00:07:50,853 --> 00:07:55,233 functions, so that decisions aren't being made by like the three people who 156 00:07:55,233 --> 00:07:59,973 are in an office and then sort of being reported to the 20 people who are not. 157 00:08:00,503 --> 00:08:02,783 Uh, in the office who are remote workers. 158 00:08:03,143 --> 00:08:07,193 Um, so we need to master, uh, asynchronous communication. 159 00:08:07,473 --> 00:08:11,483 ie not, uh, making decisions in a room together, but instead, uh, 160 00:08:11,513 --> 00:08:14,713 kind of communicating in a more thoughtful and intentional way. 161 00:08:15,253 --> 00:08:19,933 Um, and it's really, really important, um, to, uh, get really 162 00:08:19,933 --> 00:08:21,553 serious about documentation. 163 00:08:21,583 --> 00:08:24,883 So there are some great companies out there, her leaders in the 164 00:08:24,883 --> 00:08:27,073 remote world, um, like get lab. 165 00:08:27,698 --> 00:08:33,998 Ghost and WordPress, um, who create extensive documentation and really 166 00:08:33,998 --> 00:08:37,868 document every decision and process, review that stuff and make it 167 00:08:37,868 --> 00:08:43,118 useful for every employee or entire teams within the organization. 168 00:08:43,298 --> 00:08:44,198 And it labs case. 169 00:08:44,198 --> 00:08:47,648 A lot of that stuff is actually fully public, so anyone can access it and 170 00:08:47,648 --> 00:08:51,698 kind of gain from their knowledge of how to, how to design a business 171 00:08:51,698 --> 00:08:53,048 in this way and how to work in this. 172 00:08:53,898 --> 00:08:54,918 Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, that's awesome. 173 00:08:54,948 --> 00:08:57,768 You were reminding me, um, there's a former colleague of mine. 174 00:08:57,858 --> 00:09:01,848 Uh, Brian SU um, I don't know if he's here, but I'll, I'll share his stuff. 175 00:09:01,848 --> 00:09:02,088 He did. 176 00:09:02,118 --> 00:09:07,203 He does his great, like, um, He's a data guy and he does, he's great, 177 00:09:07,203 --> 00:09:09,873 like Tik TOK, videos and videos on LinkedIn about what it's like to work. 178 00:09:10,053 --> 00:09:13,413 And he had a hilarious one the other day about like finding who's the owner 179 00:09:13,413 --> 00:09:15,333 on a particular project or product. 180 00:09:15,663 --> 00:09:17,793 And like, that's really basic information. 181 00:09:17,793 --> 00:09:20,913 But I remember being so frustrated, it would take me like over a 182 00:09:20,913 --> 00:09:23,613 day of like emailing around and all of that to find out because. 183 00:09:24,348 --> 00:09:25,728 Like in the room with these people. 184 00:09:25,728 --> 00:09:30,618 So you never know, you can't just go up to someone's desk and find that information. 185 00:09:30,618 --> 00:09:32,538 So the documentation is so important. 186 00:09:33,018 --> 00:09:37,758 Um, you reminded me also of a conversation that I feel like we didn't have enough. 187 00:09:38,058 --> 00:09:41,628 Um, especially, you know, when people started talking about how, you know, 188 00:09:41,738 --> 00:09:45,618 the pandemic had revealed remote work, everyone was going to get back to that. 189 00:09:45,618 --> 00:09:46,698 Cause it was so much better. 190 00:09:46,938 --> 00:09:48,408 And people talk about how it's so much better. 191 00:09:49,158 --> 00:09:53,328 You know, for working parents or for people who are disabled and, 192 00:09:53,328 --> 00:09:56,568 and maybe cannot, um, you know, access the office as easily. 193 00:09:57,138 --> 00:10:00,408 The thing that bothered me with that, and it gets to what you're talking 194 00:10:00,408 --> 00:10:04,068 about remote versus distributed, is if you're just remote, you're also 195 00:10:04,068 --> 00:10:05,748 remote from the centers of power. 196 00:10:05,988 --> 00:10:08,898 And so I protect, you know, we're S we're pretending that we're making 197 00:10:08,898 --> 00:10:12,468 work more accessible, but actually we're still marginalizing people who 198 00:10:12,558 --> 00:10:17,208 can't be there physically, um, in the room with the decision-makers. 199 00:10:18,588 --> 00:10:19,008 Lauren Razavi: Hm. 200 00:10:19,308 --> 00:10:19,668 Yeah. 201 00:10:19,698 --> 00:10:21,138 I, I think I agree with that. 202 00:10:21,138 --> 00:10:26,058 Like, um, so much of, uh, designing for this new world of work is 203 00:10:26,058 --> 00:10:30,228 really about questioning hierarchy and reassessing where power lies. 204 00:10:30,318 --> 00:10:35,028 Um, I think we've seen a huge pushback actually to a bigger extent than, uh, than 205 00:10:35,028 --> 00:10:37,878 I was expecting from workers who want. 206 00:10:38,568 --> 00:10:43,158 Who wants flexibility, her sort of, I guess like renegotiating the kind of 207 00:10:43,158 --> 00:10:47,718 standard contract or the standard terms of what it means to be an employee. 208 00:10:48,008 --> 00:10:49,728 And I think that's really important. 209 00:10:50,058 --> 00:10:53,988 I think that, uh, there are a lot of managers who perhaps want people back in 210 00:10:53,988 --> 00:10:58,548 the office because they're not quite sure how to be a manager in a remote context. 211 00:10:58,548 --> 00:11:01,788 And it would be easier to just kind of get everyone back where they can see them. 212 00:11:02,148 --> 00:11:04,098 But actually I think like the whole. 213 00:11:04,693 --> 00:11:09,103 The whole, like negotiation of work has changed and we're seeing all over 214 00:11:09,103 --> 00:11:13,003 the U S right now, um, people quitting their jobs, uh, because they're not 215 00:11:13,003 --> 00:11:16,783 happy with how their companies are kind of transitioning, uh, or sort 216 00:11:16,783 --> 00:11:18,253 of adjusting to this new world. 217 00:11:18,553 --> 00:11:20,173 Um, I think we're going to keep seeing that. 218 00:11:20,173 --> 00:11:23,503 I do think that there's been quite a big power shift over the past year 219 00:11:23,713 --> 00:11:27,613 from companies setting the tone and setting all the rules to individuals. 220 00:11:27,753 --> 00:11:30,053 now Um, it's, it's kind of up to you. 221 00:11:30,053 --> 00:11:34,523 Like what you can, uh, like what you, what you want to get out of, work how you want 222 00:11:34,523 --> 00:11:36,293 it to fit in with the rest of your life. 223 00:11:36,653 --> 00:11:39,743 And I guess I'm completely biased on this because as somebody who's been a 224 00:11:39,743 --> 00:11:44,153 remote worker for such a long time and the digital nomad, I really believe that 225 00:11:44,153 --> 00:11:48,323 people should be able to sort of have the freedom to define their own lives. 226 00:11:48,563 --> 00:11:52,073 Um, and that work should fit into that rather than be the kind of 227 00:11:52,073 --> 00:11:55,978 leading force that defines Absolutely everything else that you're able to do. 228 00:11:56,998 --> 00:11:57,718 Isabelle Roughol: It's funny. 229 00:11:57,748 --> 00:11:59,248 Um, yeah, you're absolutely right. 230 00:11:59,248 --> 00:12:02,188 I feel like a pandemic has just been like this kind of like watershed where 231 00:12:02,188 --> 00:12:05,218 a lot of things that were brewing, you know, we're just accelerated, which 232 00:12:05,218 --> 00:12:07,048 is true in a lot of, in loving areas. 233 00:12:07,468 --> 00:12:12,358 Um, but I, you know, it's funny cause it's a decision that I made just before 234 00:12:12,358 --> 00:12:16,918 the pandemic, uh, for, for myself to, um, leave a corporate job and, you know, 235 00:12:16,918 --> 00:12:18,268 kind of figure things out on my own. 236 00:12:18,598 --> 00:12:22,108 And um, so many people now are coming to me being like, oh, how did you do this? 237 00:12:22,108 --> 00:12:22,468 Like, why. 238 00:12:23,253 --> 00:12:25,503 Uh, you know, give me some pointers and everything. 239 00:12:25,503 --> 00:12:28,713 And you're talking about the difficulty of managing remotely, uh, hit me up 240 00:12:28,713 --> 00:12:32,553 because I did that for years with hiring and managing, I think we'll 241 00:12:32,553 --> 00:12:39,083 do another, like another life because there are many, many, uh, You know, 242 00:12:39,113 --> 00:12:40,353 tips and tricks for doing that. 243 00:12:40,373 --> 00:12:43,343 But I think the fundamental one is, trust. 244 00:12:43,673 --> 00:12:47,483 Um, like the old world of work, if you're still thinking I'm a 245 00:12:47,483 --> 00:12:50,153 manager, therefore I'm the boss therefore I tell you what you do. 246 00:12:50,363 --> 00:12:53,963 That's never going to work in a distributed or remote or hybrid world. 247 00:12:53,963 --> 00:12:54,203 Right? 248 00:12:54,203 --> 00:12:57,533 Like you first, you got to empower the individual. 249 00:12:57,683 --> 00:13:00,483 You gotta hire people that you can trust that, you know, are, smart 250 00:13:00,483 --> 00:13:03,653 and are going to do the right thing And you just gotta let go of the 251 00:13:03,653 --> 00:13:05,353 illusion of control because you have. 252 00:13:06,463 --> 00:13:07,173 none 253 00:13:07,803 --> 00:13:08,553 Lauren Razavi: tastefully. 254 00:13:08,763 --> 00:13:13,773 I actually said to a client recently, um, you know, like if you can't trust your 255 00:13:13,773 --> 00:13:19,233 workers to get the work done and kind of like handle their own hours, et cetera, 256 00:13:19,593 --> 00:13:23,223 uh, then like the problem that you have is not really about getting people back 257 00:13:23,223 --> 00:13:25,113 to the office and working set hours. 258 00:13:25,113 --> 00:13:28,893 The problem you have is that you're not actually building trust with 259 00:13:28,893 --> 00:13:30,213 the people that you're employing. 260 00:13:30,273 --> 00:13:33,693 Um, I think that's, that's really fundamental because without. 261 00:13:34,338 --> 00:13:36,738 You get very, very toxic company culture. 262 00:13:36,918 --> 00:13:40,848 And I think that's applicable whether it's in an office or in a virtual environment. 263 00:13:41,318 --> 00:13:41,558 Yeah. 264 00:13:41,708 --> 00:13:41,828 I'm 265 00:13:41,828 --> 00:13:43,718 Isabelle Roughol: loving what I'm saying here. 266 00:13:43,798 --> 00:13:46,418 I'm learning how to make comments, show up on the screen. 267 00:13:46,418 --> 00:13:47,078 This is really cool. 268 00:13:47,348 --> 00:13:50,018 Um, so I think you're absolutely right. 269 00:13:50,018 --> 00:13:50,168 I'm. 270 00:13:51,468 --> 00:13:54,438 The human interaction, the human element is super important. 271 00:13:54,798 --> 00:14:01,068 Um, I think where a lot of organizations, um, are, are wrong is, um, when they 272 00:14:01,068 --> 00:14:05,118 think, oh, we're just going to go, um, distributed or remote to like save money. 273 00:14:05,418 --> 00:14:08,838 Cause yeah, you're not, uh, you know, you're not paying for real estate. 274 00:14:08,838 --> 00:14:12,858 You're not paying for an office, but you better have a really good travel budget. 275 00:14:12,888 --> 00:14:14,508 Like right now, obviously. 276 00:14:15,193 --> 00:14:18,193 Uh, it's not possible in a lot of places for a lot of reason, but when I was 277 00:14:18,193 --> 00:14:23,773 building my, my global team, um, you know, we, I first, when I started out 278 00:14:23,773 --> 00:14:27,793 before I was a manager, um, we were a much smaller team and my boss was in 279 00:14:27,793 --> 00:14:30,943 New York and I was in Paris at the time. 280 00:14:31,303 --> 00:14:33,403 And, um, I had a quarterly trip. 281 00:14:34,893 --> 00:14:35,643 Part of the deal. 282 00:14:35,643 --> 00:14:40,233 I was in New York every two, three months, because I had to, especially 283 00:14:40,233 --> 00:14:43,653 in the beginning when you don't really know people, I had to gel with them. 284 00:14:44,043 --> 00:14:49,173 Uh, and every is also like about motivation and inspiration. 285 00:14:49,173 --> 00:14:52,143 Every trip kind of charged me up for the next three months 286 00:14:52,143 --> 00:14:53,823 and like really motivated me. 287 00:14:53,823 --> 00:14:56,943 Cause it can be hard to be kind of isolated. 288 00:14:57,183 --> 00:14:59,943 And then when I built my own team, same, you know, I mean, yeah, I did a 289 00:14:59,943 --> 00:15:02,043 lot of interviewing hiring remotely. 290 00:15:02,403 --> 00:15:03,183 Um, but. 291 00:15:03,823 --> 00:15:06,703 You know, I try to go and visit the offices too. 292 00:15:06,853 --> 00:15:10,993 We would find like a central city that we could all, uh, join in. 293 00:15:10,993 --> 00:15:14,923 And then we would have, um, yearly kind of offsite, like big, you know, 294 00:15:14,983 --> 00:15:16,723 everyone like 50 of us together. 295 00:15:17,083 --> 00:15:21,133 Um, you know, socializing, you know, working, but also just getting 296 00:15:21,133 --> 00:15:22,183 to know each other as people. 297 00:15:22,183 --> 00:15:23,113 I think that's super simple. 298 00:15:23,778 --> 00:15:24,168 Um, 299 00:15:24,258 --> 00:15:25,428 Lauren Razavi: I totally agree. 300 00:15:25,428 --> 00:15:28,488 I think it's, um, it's a bit of a nuance that's being missed in a 301 00:15:28,488 --> 00:15:31,998 lot of the conversation about, um, the switch to remote right now. 302 00:15:32,028 --> 00:15:35,718 It's like, just because you may not have the same level of office 303 00:15:35,718 --> 00:15:40,038 space as before doesn't mean that there's no in-person interaction. 304 00:15:40,068 --> 00:15:43,638 It just sort of means that you have to reassess what the value and the 305 00:15:43,638 --> 00:15:45,408 purpose of those interactions are. 306 00:15:45,618 --> 00:15:50,868 So I think a really good example is, um, the company automatic, uh, who. 307 00:15:51,383 --> 00:15:55,403 Uh, founded what pro they're the creators behind, uh, what press.com? 308 00:15:55,883 --> 00:16:00,893 Um, those guys organize a grand meetup, I think is the language that they use, 309 00:16:00,893 --> 00:16:04,973 but they bring together all 1500 of their employees who are based in something 310 00:16:04,973 --> 00:16:06,803 like 70 countries around the world. 311 00:16:07,043 --> 00:16:08,333 They bring them together in one place. 312 00:16:09,083 --> 00:16:13,823 And then that's a very sort of intensive in-person experience, a sort of company 313 00:16:13,823 --> 00:16:18,443 retreat, um, which obviously costs a lot of money, but also delivers a lot 314 00:16:18,443 --> 00:16:22,583 of value because, uh, these team members are able to kind of come together in 315 00:16:22,583 --> 00:16:27,533 person, have a really like pleasant social time while also kind of getting to know 316 00:16:27,943 --> 00:16:30,173 one another, um, more professionally. 317 00:16:30,593 --> 00:16:34,613 Uh, and then when they kind of go away, when they go back to home or less kind of 318 00:16:34,613 --> 00:16:36,833 remote work environment, those relations. 319 00:16:37,303 --> 00:16:38,463 Are a lot stronger. 320 00:16:38,463 --> 00:16:42,183 You're able to remember sort of have these shared memories of that 321 00:16:42,183 --> 00:16:45,453 time at dinner or when somebody had too many glasses of wine. 322 00:16:45,753 --> 00:16:49,983 Um, and I think that side of things is really, really important and I'll just, 323 00:16:49,983 --> 00:16:53,743 um, I'm going to keep like cheerleading for get lab, um, because they truly, 324 00:16:53,743 --> 00:16:55,203 really like doing everything right. 325 00:16:55,203 --> 00:17:01,023 I think, um, but uh, those guys make available, um, a fund so that members of 326 00:17:01,023 --> 00:17:05,403 their teams are able to, um, basically go through a small, a short price. 327 00:17:05,918 --> 00:17:09,188 Uh, and then be able to be funded by the company to go visit a 328 00:17:09,188 --> 00:17:12,458 colleague in another city or another country and things like that. 329 00:17:12,458 --> 00:17:16,448 I think, um, companies can sometimes be a bit resistant to it because they envision 330 00:17:16,478 --> 00:17:21,368 absolutely everybody taking a trip every other week, but in practice, like people 331 00:17:21,368 --> 00:17:23,018 don't want to travel all the time. 332 00:17:23,018 --> 00:17:24,578 They're probably just going to take a couple hours. 333 00:17:24,998 --> 00:17:25,208 Pay. 334 00:17:25,208 --> 00:17:25,568 Yeah. 335 00:17:25,838 --> 00:17:28,958 And then that's, again, going to be really, really meaningful for sort 336 00:17:28,958 --> 00:17:32,558 of having that, um, that colleague relationship that I think a lot 337 00:17:32,558 --> 00:17:36,098 of people, which is completely understandable after the last year and 338 00:17:36,098 --> 00:17:40,838 a half, uh, seeing remote work as an incredibly isolating and lonely thing. 339 00:17:41,078 --> 00:17:44,948 Whereas I think that the kind of next stage, if we say we've done remote 340 00:17:44,948 --> 00:17:48,428 work during a pandemic, the next stage is going to be distributed work. 341 00:17:48,768 --> 00:17:52,268 I think it's just a really, really exciting time to be an employee or to 342 00:17:52,268 --> 00:17:53,978 be running a team or running a business. 343 00:17:54,663 --> 00:17:55,083 Isabelle Roughol: Yeah. 344 00:17:55,413 --> 00:17:58,773 Um, like Margaret is saying, you know, it started remote enough to six months. 345 00:17:58,773 --> 00:18:00,363 I've only met two of my coworkers. 346 00:18:00,633 --> 00:18:02,283 One was in a parking lot. 347 00:18:02,523 --> 00:18:07,353 Um, man, I, I cannot imagine starting a gig remotely right now, like props 348 00:18:07,353 --> 00:18:09,063 to you because that is really hard. 349 00:18:09,063 --> 00:18:11,433 And that's something that, um, you know, when I, again, when I was. 350 00:18:12,103 --> 00:18:12,763 Uh, remotely. 351 00:18:12,763 --> 00:18:17,143 The one thing that we always did is like, week one is in-person onboarding. 352 00:18:17,173 --> 00:18:19,393 You know, I fly to them, they fly to me. 353 00:18:19,393 --> 00:18:23,863 We fly to somewhere in comment in New York or whatever, but, but we are, um, getting 354 00:18:23,863 --> 00:18:25,153 together and that's really important. 355 00:18:25,153 --> 00:18:29,443 So starting remotely, um, is hard, but I love what you're saying about like, 356 00:18:29,463 --> 00:18:31,053 like meeting someone in a parking lot. 357 00:18:31,053 --> 00:18:33,833 That's actually something, um, I've noticed quite a few people doing. 358 00:18:34,313 --> 00:18:35,843 Um, you know, during the pandemic it's yeah. 359 00:18:35,843 --> 00:18:39,623 The offices were closed, uh, but you, you could still, you know, have 360 00:18:39,623 --> 00:18:42,203 several people, especially in big cities from the company in the same 361 00:18:42,203 --> 00:18:45,083 city, and there's nothing stopping you, you know, meeting for a walk 362 00:18:45,083 --> 00:18:46,973 in a park or something like that. 363 00:18:47,273 --> 00:18:52,433 Um, what I do like about, you know, not having to work in the office and I noticed 364 00:18:52,433 --> 00:18:56,003 something that a lot of people are big fans of is, you know, working in coffee 365 00:18:56,003 --> 00:19:00,843 shops, working in coworking spaces, working in, um, I don't know if you 366 00:19:00,853 --> 00:19:02,493 experienced that when you were at Google. 367 00:19:02,553 --> 00:19:08,073 One thing that frustrated me frustrated me working in tech is that it felt, um, 368 00:19:08,913 --> 00:19:13,443 Divorced from the community because a lot of the people and that's, you know, 369 00:19:13,443 --> 00:19:16,263 that's a whole other issue, but a lot of the people who work in tech kind 370 00:19:16,263 --> 00:19:21,123 of have the same backgrounds, the same age, um, you know, the same interests. 371 00:19:21,453 --> 00:19:27,313 And so the chances that you're going to meet, uh, Older person, 372 00:19:27,553 --> 00:19:31,093 an immigrant, a, uh, someone who works in a completely different 373 00:19:31,093 --> 00:19:33,583 field, um, end up being pretty low. 374 00:19:33,583 --> 00:19:36,703 And since you're working like all the time, and you're having 375 00:19:36,703 --> 00:19:40,903 your meals in the office as well, because food is provided, um, you're 376 00:19:40,903 --> 00:19:42,793 just, yeah, you're in that bubble. 377 00:19:43,033 --> 00:19:47,323 And that disconnects you from your users, from your customers, from your 378 00:19:47,323 --> 00:19:50,323 community, from the people you're doing this work for in the first place. 379 00:19:51,768 --> 00:19:52,218 Lauren Razavi: Hm. 380 00:19:52,458 --> 00:19:56,058 Yeah, I have to say, um, my experience was pretty different, 381 00:19:56,058 --> 00:19:58,788 but that's probably because I was never in an office for Google. 382 00:19:58,998 --> 00:20:03,108 Um, so I was working, uh, first of all, like my first contract for 383 00:20:03,108 --> 00:20:06,618 Google, um, gave me a very strange impression of the world because, um, 384 00:20:06,918 --> 00:20:08,838 I was kind of fresh out of university. 385 00:20:08,988 --> 00:20:10,908 It was a project being run by two. 386 00:20:11,413 --> 00:20:17,113 But us distributed women leaders, uh, within the company in different locations. 387 00:20:17,203 --> 00:20:21,433 Um, and we were basically able to, um, to just collaborate in 388 00:20:21,433 --> 00:20:24,943 this distributed fashion, I guess this would have been like 2014. 389 00:20:25,303 --> 00:20:28,633 Um, but we were able to kind of collaborate in this distributed fashion, 390 00:20:28,663 --> 00:20:30,673 um, which to me felt incredibly intuitive. 391 00:20:31,198 --> 00:20:35,368 Um, and so we were kind of able to, uh, to do that. 392 00:20:35,368 --> 00:20:38,728 And the team was very, very diverse and very, very international. 393 00:20:38,848 --> 00:20:42,928 Um, later on, when I was leading a team, I made a real conscious 394 00:20:42,928 --> 00:20:47,368 effort to be working with people across borders and across cultures. 395 00:20:47,668 --> 00:20:50,788 Um, because I was running creative teams and creativity. 396 00:20:50,818 --> 00:20:54,028 Definitely it doesn't just remain within one nation's borders. 397 00:20:54,478 --> 00:20:57,498 Um, so yeah, I think that for me, although I. 398 00:20:58,003 --> 00:21:01,963 I sort of heard from, from colleagues, uh, have, have worked from the big tech 399 00:21:01,963 --> 00:21:05,863 companies about these kinds of experiences of really like living at the office. 400 00:21:06,223 --> 00:21:09,973 Um, I would say that my experience was very, very different because I was a 401 00:21:09,973 --> 00:21:11,693 remote worker throughout, throughout that. 402 00:21:12,693 --> 00:21:13,143 Isabelle Roughol: Yeah. 403 00:21:13,533 --> 00:21:14,913 Um, yeah, that's great. 404 00:21:14,943 --> 00:21:20,628 I, um, I hate to be that person who's now going to complain about like the free 405 00:21:20,628 --> 00:21:22,158 gym and the free meals and everything. 406 00:21:22,788 --> 00:21:23,688 It was wonderful. 407 00:21:23,688 --> 00:21:25,508 And the commute, the company was wonderful. 408 00:21:25,518 --> 00:21:26,838 The people I met there were wonderful. 409 00:21:27,108 --> 00:21:30,198 There is, there is that sense that, you know, after a while that you're, 410 00:21:30,348 --> 00:21:31,788 yeah, you're in a bubble really. 411 00:21:31,818 --> 00:21:34,158 Um, and, um, and it's good to get out. 412 00:21:34,338 --> 00:21:37,518 Um, I'm at was making another, uh, good point. 413 00:21:37,518 --> 00:21:43,488 And then we have a question from Martella, um, On on, uh, young people 414 00:21:43,518 --> 00:21:47,538 kind of needing, I mean, he's talking about students, but you can kind 415 00:21:47,538 --> 00:21:50,958 of extend that as well to younger professionals needing the structure 416 00:21:50,958 --> 00:21:53,058 and the discipline of an office. 417 00:21:53,058 --> 00:21:55,818 And I also think about them, like just needing to be able to 418 00:21:55,818 --> 00:22:00,918 absorb, um, the codes of the, of working life and the mentorship. 419 00:22:00,918 --> 00:22:06,378 Like, how do you, how do you get that as a really young, uh, worker? 420 00:22:06,738 --> 00:22:09,318 Um, if you're not in the physical presence of other people, 421 00:22:09,318 --> 00:22:09,978 if you're just behind you. 422 00:22:11,533 --> 00:22:14,313 Lauren Razavi: I think it really comes down to whether the company 423 00:22:14,313 --> 00:22:17,823 that you're working for has in fact designed their distributed systems. 424 00:22:17,823 --> 00:22:21,723 Well, whether in fact you're going to get that structure and discipline, 425 00:22:21,843 --> 00:22:25,503 but I think people just instinctively think comes from the office, but does 426 00:22:25,503 --> 00:22:29,223 not always, depending on like the company you're working for, but if it's 427 00:22:29,223 --> 00:22:30,753 a distributed company and they have. 428 00:22:31,308 --> 00:22:35,508 Processes in place, you will get exactly the same value, um, that you 429 00:22:35,508 --> 00:22:39,348 would expect from the office in that way of the structure of the discipline, 430 00:22:39,678 --> 00:22:44,028 um, of kind of meeting people, um, and learning the kind of ropes. 431 00:22:44,088 --> 00:22:47,358 Um, I really don't think that changes in a natural environment. 432 00:22:47,358 --> 00:22:49,398 I just think that it's really grounded. 433 00:22:49,958 --> 00:22:53,708 Um, because previous generations had that experience that somehow, 434 00:22:53,708 --> 00:22:57,158 you know, the office water cooler is where all the best ideas come from. 435 00:22:57,458 --> 00:23:00,218 Um, and I guess my response to that is like, there are an awful lot of 436 00:23:00,218 --> 00:23:03,668 water coolers on the internet and you can be in your pajamas while 437 00:23:03,668 --> 00:23:05,348 you, uh, while you access them. 438 00:23:05,828 --> 00:23:09,548 Um, that's, that's a very, uh, sort of remote first mentality. 439 00:23:09,788 --> 00:23:11,408 But in fact, um, I can't remember. 440 00:23:11,428 --> 00:23:12,428 I was recommending this to you. 441 00:23:12,428 --> 00:23:13,628 The other day is about that. 442 00:23:13,628 --> 00:23:14,828 There's, um, there's a book. 443 00:23:15,503 --> 00:23:18,713 I think it's cool managing talent in the networked age. 444 00:23:18,773 --> 00:23:23,453 And it's a re like Reid Hoffman of LinkedIn is one of the, 445 00:23:23,573 --> 00:23:25,163 um, the authors of that book. 446 00:23:25,463 --> 00:23:29,243 And in it, they essentially argued that, um, the future of careers, 447 00:23:29,603 --> 00:23:33,173 uh, is going to be more about the kind of networks you cultivate as an 448 00:23:33,173 --> 00:23:37,763 individual, rather than about, um, working for a particular company and 449 00:23:37,763 --> 00:23:39,323 sort of playing by that one company. 450 00:23:40,253 --> 00:23:43,343 I really think that's true and it really reflects my experience. 451 00:23:43,373 --> 00:23:45,773 Like I've been a remote worker since 2010. 452 00:23:45,923 --> 00:23:48,353 I've been a digital nomad since 2013. 453 00:23:48,683 --> 00:23:53,743 And yeah, I have not a tool struggled with not having a physical 454 00:23:53,743 --> 00:23:56,713 presence in an office for more than, you know, the occasional 455 00:23:56,713 --> 00:23:58,663 week, maybe, uh, every year or two. 456 00:23:59,083 --> 00:24:00,793 Um, in fact, I've really been able to. 457 00:24:01,583 --> 00:24:05,723 Take advantage and I guess not get distracted by some of the distractions, 458 00:24:05,723 --> 00:24:09,383 the office politics, um, and just really kind of forge my own path. 459 00:24:09,683 --> 00:24:12,053 And I'd really encourage anyone who is worried about that. 460 00:24:12,053 --> 00:24:15,863 Particularly younger people to just stop kind of, um, stuck kind 461 00:24:15,863 --> 00:24:17,233 of like thinking about the next. 462 00:24:17,648 --> 00:24:22,868 And just stop thinking about how you can embed yourself in communities 463 00:24:22,868 --> 00:24:26,468 and industries and things that you'll really passionate and excited about. 464 00:24:26,738 --> 00:24:31,058 I think there's a huge opportunity for a more kind of bespoke individual 465 00:24:31,058 --> 00:24:33,488 to you, uh, career in the future. 466 00:24:33,878 --> 00:24:37,988 Um, and yeah, if you're, if your current company really sucks at remote work, 467 00:24:38,168 --> 00:24:40,868 like choose another thing that right 468 00:24:40,868 --> 00:24:41,048 Isabelle Roughol: now. 469 00:24:41,458 --> 00:24:42,058 Yeah. 470 00:24:42,058 --> 00:24:42,508 Yeah. 471 00:24:42,538 --> 00:24:44,398 And, um, and there are. 472 00:24:45,188 --> 00:24:49,988 As you said, like the, your, your, uh, professional activity networking, 473 00:24:49,988 --> 00:24:53,468 your learning, doesn't have to be either within the company that 474 00:24:53,468 --> 00:24:54,878 employs you, that you work for. 475 00:24:55,118 --> 00:24:58,328 Um, you know, there are professional events, there are networks, or, you 476 00:24:58,328 --> 00:25:02,258 know, in London and parts of hacks hackers, which is a group before, 477 00:25:02,558 --> 00:25:05,828 um, people who work kind of at intersection of media and technology, 478 00:25:05,828 --> 00:25:07,268 which is, which is my sweet spot. 479 00:25:07,538 --> 00:25:11,258 Um, there are, you know, there's just a lot of different organizations 480 00:25:11,258 --> 00:25:13,878 that, that you can join and you can have that physical. 481 00:25:13,878 --> 00:25:13,928 Yeah. 482 00:25:14,413 --> 00:25:18,463 Um, interaction, uh, you know, like what, what Khalid was saying, which is, 483 00:25:18,523 --> 00:25:23,743 uh, uh, you know, that the socializing aspect, um, can be challenging. 484 00:25:25,053 --> 00:25:29,643 When you're working, um, uh, remotely, uh, but yes, the comment is too long 485 00:25:29,643 --> 00:25:32,463 from the screen, but yes, you have slack, you have activities, you have things 486 00:25:32,463 --> 00:25:35,223 that you can do in person, for sure. 487 00:25:35,633 --> 00:25:38,903 Lauren Razavi: If I can just, um, add something that I think something, uh, 488 00:25:38,913 --> 00:25:43,643 that, you know, whether you're a new employee, an old employee, whether 489 00:25:43,643 --> 00:25:45,383 you're a manager, whether you're a boss. 490 00:25:45,413 --> 00:25:48,173 I really think that something everyone should be thinking about 491 00:25:48,173 --> 00:25:52,403 right now with the teams is designing rituals to kind of facilitate. 492 00:25:52,863 --> 00:25:53,973 That social side. 493 00:25:54,333 --> 00:25:57,033 And now that sounds like it's just going to be absolutely terrible. 494 00:25:57,033 --> 00:26:01,023 But the reason that I'm actually saying it to everybody here is because I don't 495 00:26:01,023 --> 00:26:02,643 think those things work very well. 496 00:26:02,643 --> 00:26:04,533 Just as a top-down kind of thing. 497 00:26:04,533 --> 00:26:07,233 Like P like the people who run the company, telling 498 00:26:07,233 --> 00:26:08,223 you how it's going to work. 499 00:26:08,493 --> 00:26:10,203 I think a lot of it builds from the Boston. 500 00:26:10,233 --> 00:26:11,733 It's more like grassroots. 501 00:26:12,003 --> 00:26:17,033 Um, and so for example, um, arranging like a monthly town hall, Where 502 00:26:17,043 --> 00:26:20,783 everybody can kind of get together for an hour and maybe there's some 503 00:26:20,783 --> 00:26:23,873 kind of structure, but the main idea is so that anyone can bring anything 504 00:26:23,873 --> 00:26:28,733 they're struggling with, to the table on like a company level or organizing a 505 00:26:28,733 --> 00:26:32,543 couple of hours each week where you're doing co-working sprints via zoom. 506 00:26:32,543 --> 00:26:34,133 So you, a bunch of you can log in together. 507 00:26:34,633 --> 00:26:38,533 Someone does a bit of an introduction, um, and you just kind of worked 508 00:26:38,533 --> 00:26:41,833 together and you know what, you perhaps know what you're working on and kind 509 00:26:41,833 --> 00:26:45,313 of can collaborate live a little bit like you might in the office. 510 00:26:45,703 --> 00:26:48,283 Um, these kinds of things can just really, really help to 511 00:26:48,283 --> 00:26:49,813 actually build company culture. 512 00:26:49,813 --> 00:26:54,413 And . When I've worked, um, on like loads of different projects, 513 00:26:54,623 --> 00:26:56,123 this is like really important. 514 00:26:56,123 --> 00:27:00,023 If you aren't meeting in person is to still kind of understand what your 515 00:27:00,023 --> 00:27:04,463 check-in points are and to have those more informal and kind of casual interactions, 516 00:27:04,493 --> 00:27:06,653 um, day to day or week to week as well. 517 00:27:06,893 --> 00:27:09,473 So like, rather than feeling bad, if you may, to something that's really 518 00:27:09,473 --> 00:27:14,123 not working, like really feel empowered to suggest something and perhaps. 519 00:27:14,743 --> 00:27:18,853 Oh, so be the one who sets things up and then rotate running it amongst colleagues, 520 00:27:19,803 --> 00:27:22,953 Isabelle Roughol: there was a, you reminded me of, um, one, one such 521 00:27:22,983 --> 00:27:24,333 ritual that I absolutely loved. 522 00:27:24,363 --> 00:27:26,733 It was in person, but it could absolutely work out remotely. 523 00:27:26,973 --> 00:27:30,393 Uh, and this was what, um, pulse, which was a startup 524 00:27:30,393 --> 00:27:32,163 that LinkedIn acquired back in. 525 00:27:32,283 --> 00:27:32,733 Gosh. 526 00:27:33,418 --> 00:27:34,498 13, I think. 527 00:27:34,798 --> 00:27:38,848 Um, and then when he first joined the company, um, I wasn't one of their 528 00:27:38,848 --> 00:27:41,188 all hands in, uh, in San Francisco. 529 00:27:41,548 --> 00:27:45,508 And, um, they had this tradition, uh, where kind of everyone could 530 00:27:45,508 --> 00:27:48,928 speak up and say, you know, whatever that was on their mind, but it 531 00:27:48,928 --> 00:27:51,838 was, um, I like, I wish I wonder. 532 00:27:52,168 --> 00:27:54,208 And it was like the, the sentence had to start by. 533 00:27:54,238 --> 00:27:58,558 I like, or I wish or wonder, and it just like created this, like, um, 534 00:27:59,363 --> 00:28:03,003 Kind of amazing a brainstorm where people like, you know, I like, you 535 00:28:03,003 --> 00:28:04,083 know, this new product feature. 536 00:28:04,263 --> 00:28:06,573 I wonder why, you know, we're not doing this whatever. 537 00:28:06,573 --> 00:28:09,843 And, um, it just, I was such so wonderful. 538 00:28:09,903 --> 00:28:13,503 Uh, and it, you know, it's a simple ritual, but it just gives people like 539 00:28:13,503 --> 00:28:16,533 that framework to rather than just say, Hey, tell us what you think, 540 00:28:16,563 --> 00:28:19,143 which can be a little bit like, oh, 541 00:28:20,828 --> 00:28:22,868 Lauren Razavi: Maybe just one more thing to add to that. 542 00:28:22,988 --> 00:28:27,548 Um, since I know what both members of a London writers Salum, I think those 543 00:28:27,548 --> 00:28:33,308 guys are really interesting example of sort of building, um, remote or 544 00:28:33,338 --> 00:28:36,698 industry infrastructure, actually outside the bounds of the company. 545 00:28:37,153 --> 00:28:42,313 So if I can say really, really briefly, um, essentially at these awesome people 546 00:28:42,313 --> 00:28:46,873 who run Lyndon right to Salah and, um, Matt and Pearl, when the whole world 547 00:28:46,873 --> 00:28:50,203 went into lockdown last year, they decided to kind of move, I think what 548 00:28:50,203 --> 00:28:54,583 were like monthly events online and they started writer's hour, which you 549 00:28:54,583 --> 00:28:56,593 can check out on writers, iowa.com. 550 00:28:56,983 --> 00:28:58,933 And basically it's a free writing spring. 551 00:28:59,443 --> 00:29:04,483 At, I think it's 8:00 AM and like four different times zones, every weekday and 552 00:29:04,483 --> 00:29:07,903 it's grown so that there are hundreds of people, um, who are attending 553 00:29:07,903 --> 00:29:10,063 these, these sessions every single day. 554 00:29:10,333 --> 00:29:15,193 Um, and so this is kind of like in my view, a writing community infrastructure, 555 00:29:15,553 --> 00:29:20,023 um, and it's really, really cool to just kind of have these things in a remote 556 00:29:20,023 --> 00:29:24,013 context that you can show up to and that you can kind of feel in, in community. 557 00:29:24,548 --> 00:29:25,478 Um, around. 558 00:29:25,688 --> 00:29:29,858 So I think the kind of takeaway, uh, the reason that I bring this up as an X, as 559 00:29:29,858 --> 00:29:34,298 an example is because if it doesn't feel right to do that within your current 560 00:29:34,298 --> 00:29:38,168 team or your current company, as in, come up with a ritual and start something 561 00:29:38,468 --> 00:29:42,698 also look more widely actually at your industry and have a think about whether 562 00:29:42,698 --> 00:29:44,638 you could do something like writers. 563 00:29:45,238 --> 00:29:48,268 For the marketing community or for the tech community. 564 00:29:48,538 --> 00:29:50,998 Um, and really like, don't be afraid to experiment. 565 00:29:51,028 --> 00:29:53,668 Like we're in a playground of experimentation right now. 566 00:29:53,698 --> 00:29:55,438 Nobody knows what the hell they're doing. 567 00:29:55,768 --> 00:29:59,278 And those of us who've been the remote working for a decade. 568 00:29:59,278 --> 00:30:00,808 So everything's up for grabs. 569 00:30:00,838 --> 00:30:01,078 Like 570 00:30:02,028 --> 00:30:03,258 Isabelle Roughol: it changes so quickly, right? 571 00:30:03,258 --> 00:30:06,288 Because the technology changes. 572 00:30:06,318 --> 00:30:08,358 And so what was, uh, you know, I studied. 573 00:30:08,878 --> 00:30:12,808 Uh, working remotely, you know, like you, even before LinkedIn, I was, 574 00:30:12,868 --> 00:30:16,078 I was working on a project between the Figaro and the New York times. 575 00:30:16,078 --> 00:30:21,478 So, you know, newsroom in piracy, Paris in newsroom, in New York, that was in 2009. 576 00:30:21,748 --> 00:30:23,518 Oh my gosh, we weren't doing zooms. 577 00:30:23,518 --> 00:30:27,058 Like, and so, um, but still somehow we, we know we managed to work. 578 00:30:27,058 --> 00:30:30,868 So the, the, the technology is going to keep changing and therefore the ways 579 00:30:30,868 --> 00:30:32,158 that we work are going to keep changing. 580 00:30:32,278 --> 00:30:34,648 Uh, we have tons of great, like great questions coming in. 581 00:30:34,648 --> 00:30:37,678 I can't even keep up with, uh, so we're going to go really quick. 582 00:30:38,658 --> 00:30:42,888 Uh, fire round, like really quickly, um, lightning round, sorry. 583 00:30:43,128 --> 00:30:47,688 Um, Marcella Marcella who's uh, hi, who's a member of borderline. 584 00:30:47,688 --> 00:30:52,158 So you can do like her and support the work@borderlinepod.com slash subscribe. 585 00:30:52,188 --> 00:30:54,198 That was by my a plug. 586 00:30:54,708 --> 00:30:57,078 Um, any tips on how to fix remotely? 587 00:30:57,078 --> 00:30:57,378 What was. 588 00:30:58,178 --> 00:30:59,798 Broken in the office, right? 589 00:30:59,798 --> 00:31:03,338 If you just take a dysfunctional team in the office and you just make it a 590 00:31:03,338 --> 00:31:04,928 home team, they're still dysfunctional. 591 00:31:05,258 --> 00:31:09,158 Um, I think, and then I'm going to, uh, send it to you, Lauren. 592 00:31:09,158 --> 00:31:11,468 But I think one thing that's interesting is actually. 593 00:31:12,633 --> 00:31:13,953 It's a great diagnostic tool. 594 00:31:14,373 --> 00:31:15,933 What was broken about your team? 595 00:31:15,933 --> 00:31:18,903 Was it because it was in the office and the office wasn't 596 00:31:18,903 --> 00:31:22,803 working or is it something else that, you know, that remains when 597 00:31:22,803 --> 00:31:24,243 you're no longer in the office? 598 00:31:24,243 --> 00:31:25,293 Like, what was it that was broken? 599 00:31:25,293 --> 00:31:28,833 So I, you know, being able to kind of, uh, change the environment, that's 600 00:31:28,833 --> 00:31:32,793 kind of your variable in the experiment to kind of understand, uh, better. 601 00:31:32,823 --> 00:31:34,143 What, what is going on? 602 00:31:34,533 --> 00:31:36,483 Um, Lauren, do you have suggestions? 603 00:31:37,593 --> 00:31:41,673 Lauren Razavi: Yeah, I totally agree with, um, I totally agree with that 604 00:31:41,673 --> 00:31:43,593 with your assessment there, Isabel. 605 00:31:43,653 --> 00:31:48,633 Um, I think maybe the only thing that I would add is that I truly think 606 00:31:48,633 --> 00:31:55,118 that, um, some companies, uh, Like not, you cannot fix them essentially. 607 00:31:55,128 --> 00:32:01,578 Like I think that, uh, if you, it really depends, it depends on the exact 608 00:32:01,578 --> 00:32:03,318 nature of the dysfunction, of course. 609 00:32:03,528 --> 00:32:07,728 But, um, I wouldn't say that, um, a team that was already dysfunctional 610 00:32:07,728 --> 00:32:12,078 in the office and is sort of trying to translate exactly what they were doing. 611 00:32:12,818 --> 00:32:14,198 Into a virtual environment. 612 00:32:14,498 --> 00:32:16,808 I don't think there's, there's going to be a change there. 613 00:32:17,258 --> 00:32:20,498 Um, I do think there's an opportunity for employees. 614 00:32:20,558 --> 00:32:24,458 Um, and any team member, really bit to just kind of like step 615 00:32:24,458 --> 00:32:28,438 forward and say, Hey, can we have some honest conversations about. 616 00:32:29,048 --> 00:32:30,818 Working and what's not working. 617 00:32:31,058 --> 00:32:35,378 And maybe actually the tend to remote work gives you a bit more of an 618 00:32:35,378 --> 00:32:40,118 ability to diva because it's like the reason to stop the conversation. 619 00:32:40,268 --> 00:32:43,538 Whereas perhaps a couple of years ago that wouldn't have been possible 620 00:32:43,598 --> 00:32:47,078 because where is the space to, to kind of talk about the dysfunction. 621 00:32:48,288 --> 00:32:48,648 Isabelle Roughol: Yeah. 622 00:32:48,648 --> 00:32:53,388 And you have a, your sponsor uh, Metalla from, uh, McKayla, uh, as well. 623 00:32:53,658 --> 00:32:56,718 Um, yeah, suggesting, you know, you need to understand the diversity of 624 00:32:56,718 --> 00:32:58,848 each of your team members and, uh, yeah. 625 00:32:58,848 --> 00:33:01,038 That's something that maybe you weren't able to do in the office because there 626 00:33:01,038 --> 00:33:04,458 were too many people around and, uh, it could get awkward, but you can 627 00:33:04,458 --> 00:33:07,248 actually have a lot more one-on-one conversations and understand kind 628 00:33:07,248 --> 00:33:08,598 of where everybody's coming from. 629 00:33:08,838 --> 00:33:11,958 Um, when you do that, when you do that remotely, and again, if you're in the 630 00:33:11,958 --> 00:33:13,308 same city, you can just go out for coffee. 631 00:33:13,748 --> 00:33:17,528 But if you're not, um, you know, you can do that via zoom and whatnot. 632 00:33:17,528 --> 00:33:19,208 I mean, we do, we do everything on Cigna. 633 00:33:19,208 --> 00:33:20,288 Now we do therapy on zoom. 634 00:33:20,288 --> 00:33:23,048 We certainly can do, uh, you know, one-on-one with a manager. 635 00:33:23,468 --> 00:33:27,068 Uh, in fact, uh, that's I did for a long time, I'm going to take a couple more 636 00:33:27,068 --> 00:33:29,138 questions, send your final questions. 637 00:33:29,138 --> 00:33:31,388 And I'm realizing we're already a half an hour, but there's so much 638 00:33:31,418 --> 00:33:34,268 good stuff here that I'm happy to continue unless you need to run. 639 00:33:34,628 --> 00:33:35,438 Um, Lauren. 640 00:33:36,913 --> 00:33:37,303 All right. 641 00:33:37,353 --> 00:33:38,833 Let's, let's take a little bit more time. 642 00:33:38,983 --> 00:33:43,543 Um, I like this cache this question from a Manuel because, uh, how can I 643 00:33:43,543 --> 00:33:45,013 present myself as a credible person? 644 00:33:45,013 --> 00:33:47,803 If I'm to work from Ghana for someone abroad? 645 00:33:48,403 --> 00:33:51,193 Uh, I mean, your being from Ghana doesn't make you any less 646 00:33:51,193 --> 00:33:53,503 credible than a, than anyone else. 647 00:33:53,503 --> 00:33:57,103 I mean, the beauty of remote distributed work is, um, is that 648 00:33:57,103 --> 00:33:58,423 you can do it from anywhere now. 649 00:33:58,423 --> 00:33:59,083 The challenges. 650 00:33:59,863 --> 00:34:05,473 Find, um, is like, even if some companies are increasingly either open to remote 651 00:34:05,473 --> 00:34:10,153 work, but they still want to hire, um, in a country where they have a legal 652 00:34:10,153 --> 00:34:13,063 structure where they have an office where they have, uh, where they're 653 00:34:13,063 --> 00:34:17,983 incorporated, uh, you know, for tax reason for, uh, social insurance, social 654 00:34:17,983 --> 00:34:19,993 benefits, everything kind of reason. 655 00:34:20,173 --> 00:34:22,033 So that's, that might be the challenge. 656 00:34:22,213 --> 00:34:24,913 I know Lauren, you were telling me the other day about some interesting 657 00:34:24,943 --> 00:34:26,633 innovations that are happening in that. 658 00:34:27,798 --> 00:34:30,828 Lauren Razavi: Yeah, sorry, I'll try and keep it brief, but essentially that 659 00:34:30,928 --> 00:34:36,078 a lot of new startups popping up at the moment, um, which are targeting companies 660 00:34:36,078 --> 00:34:40,788 that want to recruit people from overseas and helping them make sure that they are 661 00:34:41,418 --> 00:34:45,888 contracting with people as freelances in a completely like compliant way. 662 00:34:46,098 --> 00:34:50,238 So this like intermediary platform, uh, for an example, I think one that 663 00:34:50,268 --> 00:34:52,818 I've come across is, is Hey portal. 664 00:34:53,398 --> 00:34:57,208 Dot IO, H E Y portal.io. 665 00:34:57,508 --> 00:34:58,738 Um, that's just one example. 666 00:34:58,738 --> 00:35:02,278 There are many of them now, but essentially these, uh, these companies 667 00:35:02,278 --> 00:35:07,078 are popping up so that they are able to, um, sort of be the intermediary 668 00:35:07,078 --> 00:35:11,308 step between people like Emmanuelle and perhaps like a European or an 669 00:35:11,308 --> 00:35:15,498 American company, um, who wants to be able to work with him, but actually 670 00:35:15,498 --> 00:35:17,208 don't want to set up a local office. 671 00:35:17,958 --> 00:35:21,618 Um, this kind of stuff basically makes it so that a company can sort of run 672 00:35:21,618 --> 00:35:27,048 a global payroll, um, of freelances, um, and be able to kind of like, uh, 673 00:35:27,078 --> 00:35:31,248 comply with all of the local regulations in whichever country somebody is in. 674 00:35:31,668 --> 00:35:36,198 Um, one thing I would say just a really practical level is, um, be really, 675 00:35:36,198 --> 00:35:39,768 really careful with American job applications in particular, because 676 00:35:39,768 --> 00:35:41,298 a lot of them ask you for that. 677 00:35:41,833 --> 00:35:45,643 Lots and lots of information, lots and lots of time and energy. 678 00:35:45,943 --> 00:35:50,443 Um, and then don't even stay anywhere, but that only open to like us citizens. 679 00:35:50,533 --> 00:35:53,183 Um, I've actually been caught out with that, uh, with, uh, 680 00:35:53,923 --> 00:35:55,483 the media organization before. 681 00:35:55,483 --> 00:35:58,483 So I always want to like warn people against it. 682 00:35:58,543 --> 00:36:01,423 Like, there's nothing wrong with like getting on the phone or sending 683 00:36:01,423 --> 00:36:05,233 an email to just try and clarify before you send it an application. 684 00:36:05,373 --> 00:36:05,703 Isabelle Roughol: Yeah. 685 00:36:05,703 --> 00:36:07,923 I, I had a friend who like just kind of went through the whole 686 00:36:07,923 --> 00:36:11,383 process and was like, Hey, by the way, I don't have to FISA that. 687 00:36:11,383 --> 00:36:13,033 You're going to need, like, are you going to sponsor me? 688 00:36:13,143 --> 00:36:15,903 I went through the whole process and like, at the very end, they were 689 00:36:15,903 --> 00:36:18,423 like, oh, we can't make this work. 690 00:36:19,083 --> 00:36:22,953 You know, legally, um, and often that's because the hiring managers, 691 00:36:22,953 --> 00:36:25,713 you know, they want who they want for their team, for their project. 692 00:36:25,713 --> 00:36:26,973 They seek your skills are amazing. 693 00:36:27,183 --> 00:36:29,133 They have no idea how immigration works. 694 00:36:29,163 --> 00:36:31,683 If they're not immigrants themselves, they've never encountered it. 695 00:36:31,863 --> 00:36:35,643 They have no idea how complex and restrictive it is. 696 00:36:35,733 --> 00:36:37,533 Um, the way that we understand. 697 00:36:38,313 --> 00:36:41,643 Um, and so they just want to go for what they want to go for in 698 00:36:41,643 --> 00:36:44,373 like the very end of the process when HR is drawing up the paper. 699 00:36:44,373 --> 00:36:46,143 So like, Nevermind. 700 00:36:46,443 --> 00:36:49,203 Um, so yeah, pick up the phone cause you don't want to waste your time. 701 00:36:49,233 --> 00:36:50,523 Like your time is precious. 702 00:36:50,523 --> 00:36:52,233 Your job searching time is precious. 703 00:36:52,413 --> 00:36:54,393 If anyone thinks you're not credible coming from Ghana. 704 00:36:54,423 --> 00:36:54,843 Oh my God. 705 00:36:54,843 --> 00:36:56,223 You do not want to work for them. 706 00:36:56,223 --> 00:36:58,383 Like that sounds dreadful. 707 00:36:58,713 --> 00:36:59,853 Um, all right. 708 00:36:59,853 --> 00:37:01,683 I'm going to like go through will quick. 709 00:37:01,683 --> 00:37:04,113 This is a great comment, which is too long for the screen, but 710 00:37:04,353 --> 00:37:05,763 check out the common stream. 711 00:37:05,763 --> 00:37:07,623 Cause there's some great stuff coming up. 712 00:37:07,623 --> 00:37:07,853 I'm just. 713 00:37:08,973 --> 00:37:10,503 Pull out the questions. 714 00:37:11,103 --> 00:37:14,073 Um, there's a question. 715 00:37:14,073 --> 00:37:14,943 I see a question, mark. 716 00:37:14,943 --> 00:37:15,603 I bring it up. 717 00:37:15,903 --> 00:37:19,203 Um, how are people managing their teams back to the office? 718 00:37:19,203 --> 00:37:19,923 That's the whole point. 719 00:37:19,923 --> 00:37:21,783 We don't want them back to the office. 720 00:37:21,783 --> 00:37:22,293 Do we. 721 00:37:25,353 --> 00:37:25,833 Lauren Razavi: Yeah. 722 00:37:25,983 --> 00:37:29,373 And so the second part of the question they investing in remote 723 00:37:29,373 --> 00:37:31,203 software with COVID and mine too. 724 00:37:31,233 --> 00:37:35,343 So I do think that a lot of companies have sort of already made that shift 725 00:37:35,343 --> 00:37:39,033 in terms of like, if your company didn't have a zoom subscription 726 00:37:39,063 --> 00:37:40,713 in March 20, 20, or April. 727 00:37:40,863 --> 00:37:40,983 Yeah. 728 00:37:41,568 --> 00:37:42,798 They probably got one. 729 00:37:42,888 --> 00:37:45,438 I think we're going to see a lot of that stuff stick around. 730 00:37:45,768 --> 00:37:47,808 Um, and that does open up new opportunities. 731 00:37:47,808 --> 00:37:52,188 Even if some people do go back to an office to work in new ways to work 732 00:37:52,188 --> 00:37:55,818 with a broader kind of cross section of people, um, perhaps globally. 733 00:37:57,003 --> 00:38:01,893 But yeah, I think that, um, in my view, like, uh, getting the teams back to 734 00:38:01,893 --> 00:38:06,303 the office, I literally trying to go back to what things were like in 2019. 735 00:38:06,603 --> 00:38:08,493 Um, doesn't make a lot of business sense. 736 00:38:08,553 --> 00:38:11,103 Like it's probably not going to get the best out of your teams. 737 00:38:11,403 --> 00:38:15,363 Um, it's probably not like the best approach if you want to kind of retain 738 00:38:15,363 --> 00:38:18,813 your talented workers and make sure that they're happy and make sure that 739 00:38:18,813 --> 00:38:21,093 you are competitive in this new realm. 740 00:38:22,053 --> 00:38:22,413 Isabelle Roughol: One. 741 00:38:23,808 --> 00:38:27,618 Um, solution that we haven't really talked about all that much is hybrid. 742 00:38:27,648 --> 00:38:27,918 Right. 743 00:38:27,918 --> 00:38:29,718 So you're partly back in the office. 744 00:38:30,108 --> 00:38:32,468 Partly not, I don't know. 745 00:38:32,468 --> 00:38:36,698 I'm a little skeptical on that because if it's another, um, the company, was it, 746 00:38:36,788 --> 00:38:41,498 um, some big tech Silicon valley company and it was like, oh, you know, people are 747 00:38:41,498 --> 00:38:43,538 going to come back on Monday, Tuesday. 748 00:38:43,538 --> 00:38:47,198 So state I'm like, how is that any more flexible, you know, you're 749 00:38:47,198 --> 00:38:50,788 still putting a kind of a rigid structure in place that does. 750 00:38:51,508 --> 00:38:56,248 Take into account people's, you know, kind of personal, um, situation. 751 00:38:56,458 --> 00:38:59,968 So yeah, you have to be in the office less, but you're still restricted 752 00:39:00,028 --> 00:39:03,898 in a way that a lot of people are just not really willing to do. 753 00:39:03,898 --> 00:39:06,568 Like, we don't have the whistle at the top of the factory telling 754 00:39:06,568 --> 00:39:07,708 us when to come in anymore. 755 00:39:07,708 --> 00:39:08,548 Like that's, that's. 756 00:39:10,053 --> 00:39:14,583 Lauren Razavi: Yeah, I think, um, it, it sort of opens the, uh, opens the door 757 00:39:14,583 --> 00:39:18,513 for that to be quite a big problem in terms of presenteeism as well, because 758 00:39:18,753 --> 00:39:23,913 if you're working two or three days a week at the office, um, then, uh, you may 759 00:39:23,913 --> 00:39:27,903 well find that the managers who really wanted you to come back to the office are 760 00:39:27,903 --> 00:39:29,373 actually quite insistent that you are. 761 00:39:29,918 --> 00:39:32,438 Staying until you've finished your work on those days. 762 00:39:32,468 --> 00:39:35,168 Like I'm, I'm hearing kind of stories from, from different 763 00:39:35,588 --> 00:39:36,628 friends around the world. 764 00:39:36,638 --> 00:39:40,118 It's kind of being told they need to work from the office for two days a week. 765 00:39:40,298 --> 00:39:43,088 And that ends up being two 12 hour days in the office. 766 00:39:43,508 --> 00:39:47,918 And then the rest of the time, a sort of normal working day from home and 767 00:39:47,918 --> 00:39:50,378 that, but is hybrid failure like that. 768 00:39:50,838 --> 00:39:55,698 The polar opposite of what a successful hybrid work model looks like. 769 00:39:56,028 --> 00:39:59,778 Um, and yeah, I think it's really important that, uh, employees, 770 00:39:59,778 --> 00:40:03,048 that team members are in fact, like holding their companies to account 771 00:40:03,048 --> 00:40:07,668 on that because, uh, it is going to just kind of breed a toxic culture. 772 00:40:07,698 --> 00:40:12,768 It's going to make it much, much worse human experience to work for that company. 773 00:40:13,128 --> 00:40:15,918 And even if you decide that you're going, if you're not going to stand 774 00:40:15,918 --> 00:40:19,518 for it, I think we all kind of have this obligation to educate patients. 775 00:40:20,043 --> 00:40:23,193 On what it is that we want as individual humans right now. 776 00:40:23,523 --> 00:40:26,793 Um, and there's definitely an opportunity for that, uh, on companies 777 00:40:26,793 --> 00:40:30,033 that are misstepping, uh, in terms of that, that return to the office. 778 00:40:30,473 --> 00:40:30,743 Isabelle Roughol: Mm. 779 00:40:31,043 --> 00:40:35,543 And that's true too, when you're working from home or you're working from. 780 00:40:36,973 --> 00:40:39,073 Uh, you know, coworking space, whatever, but especially if you're 781 00:40:39,073 --> 00:40:42,283 working from home, which is, did they stretches and stretches because you 782 00:40:42,283 --> 00:40:44,803 know, you wake up you're right at your computer, you know, you don't 783 00:40:44,803 --> 00:40:46,843 really have that commute, whatever. 784 00:40:46,843 --> 00:40:49,813 So, uh, and, and it's easy to just. 785 00:40:50,673 --> 00:40:54,933 Not have that disconnect from work to home because often that's 786 00:40:54,933 --> 00:40:57,753 literally like sitting on a different side of a couch or something like, 787 00:40:58,383 --> 00:41:01,223 um, so, so it is definitely, you know, something to keep in mind. 788 00:41:01,253 --> 00:41:06,093 I think we're all still, you know, both managers and police self-employed as well. 789 00:41:06,363 --> 00:41:08,463 Uh, that's certainly my experience at the moment. 790 00:41:09,723 --> 00:41:12,423 Well, you know, we're all kind of figuring out what the, where 791 00:41:12,423 --> 00:41:13,713 the, where the boundaries are. 792 00:41:13,923 --> 00:41:17,253 I like the idea that I know something you talk about a lot at like, you 793 00:41:17,253 --> 00:41:20,493 know, forget work-life balance is more about like harmony and how did 794 00:41:20,493 --> 00:41:23,313 it to kind of kind of fit together. 795 00:41:23,613 --> 00:41:27,093 But that's often used as an excuse to just be like, oh, sure. 796 00:41:27,093 --> 00:41:31,363 I can work at 11:00 PM because, you know, I took a break at 2:00 PM to 797 00:41:31,953 --> 00:41:33,843 pick up my kids or go to the gym. 798 00:41:33,843 --> 00:41:36,933 Like, it's not kind of where, um, I want to go. 799 00:41:38,133 --> 00:41:40,623 I realize we're we're at 40 minutes. 800 00:41:41,013 --> 00:41:42,543 I think we're going to close it for today. 801 00:41:42,543 --> 00:41:43,713 Anything else that you want to. 802 00:41:44,823 --> 00:41:45,603 Touch on Lauren. 803 00:41:46,173 --> 00:41:49,203 Lauren Razavi: I think I just want to respond to, um, Mikhail's question, 804 00:41:49,233 --> 00:41:53,973 which is how many hours a week will be ideal in the hybrid workspace. 805 00:41:54,003 --> 00:41:56,853 Um, because it's actually a really important point about distributed 806 00:41:56,853 --> 00:42:01,113 work is that, uh, we should stop thinking about work in terms of time. 807 00:42:01,728 --> 00:42:03,578 And instead think about output. 808 00:42:03,968 --> 00:42:09,018 So what, are the goals that you need to achieve and how quickly, not how 809 00:42:09,018 --> 00:42:10,308 many hours are you going to work? 810 00:42:10,698 --> 00:42:15,138 How many hours you work is an input and what you actually get done is the output. 811 00:42:15,528 --> 00:42:17,388 Um, and a lot of asynchronous. 812 00:42:18,108 --> 00:42:19,518 Um, communicators. 813 00:42:19,518 --> 00:42:23,388 A lot of distributed companies, um, are actually really, really bullish 814 00:42:23,448 --> 00:42:27,198 on, uh, having no interest in, in the number of hours that you're spending. 815 00:42:27,228 --> 00:42:30,078 I, if you're, if you're being paid for 40 hours a week, but you're 816 00:42:30,078 --> 00:42:33,198 getting your work done perfectly and 10, that's fine for them. 817 00:42:33,288 --> 00:42:34,398 And they're not going to argue with it. 818 00:42:34,728 --> 00:42:36,798 Um, I think was just a kind of useful framing. 819 00:42:37,098 --> 00:42:41,178 The final thing that I'd just like to say is I'm very bad at self promotion, but I 820 00:42:41,178 --> 00:42:45,498 have a newsletter if you'd like keep in touch and buddy, uh, you'll find me at. 821 00:42:46,153 --> 00:42:52,333 L Ross that's L a Zed or Z for the Americans, uh, dot dot com. 822 00:42:52,543 --> 00:42:54,373 Um, that's totally free of charge. 823 00:42:54,403 --> 00:42:58,033 So please feel free to, uh, sign up and drop me an email sometime 824 00:42:58,033 --> 00:42:59,703 and reply if, uh, if you fancy 825 00:42:59,743 --> 00:42:59,863 Isabelle Roughol: time. 826 00:43:00,453 --> 00:43:01,023 Absolutely. 827 00:43:01,023 --> 00:43:02,823 It is a great newsletter. 828 00:43:02,913 --> 00:43:04,173 I read it every week. 829 00:43:04,473 --> 00:43:06,513 Um, so strong recommend. 830 00:43:06,783 --> 00:43:10,873 Um, and to your point, um, one, one kind of final point I wanted to make as well. 831 00:43:11,718 --> 00:43:15,378 I'm aware that, you know, a lot of the conversation we're having is around, um, 832 00:43:15,408 --> 00:43:20,298 professional kind of jobs, which can be more self guided, which, uh, where you 833 00:43:20,298 --> 00:43:23,538 have a little bit more, um, freedom. 834 00:43:23,778 --> 00:43:28,488 Um, then, uh, some of the, um, more hourly job, which again are 835 00:43:28,518 --> 00:43:29,988 based two things on that one. 836 00:43:29,988 --> 00:43:34,698 I saw that, um, LinkedIn recently, uh, did some, uh, put out some 837 00:43:34,698 --> 00:43:39,798 research around kind of the fastest growing remote work, um, in. 838 00:43:40,583 --> 00:43:42,983 The United States, I think it was, but, but it applies really 839 00:43:42,983 --> 00:43:46,673 everywhere and it's not all, uh, you know, it's not all professional. 840 00:43:46,703 --> 00:43:49,463 Desk-based, it's, you know, there there's a lot of other things. 841 00:43:49,823 --> 00:43:52,823 Um, the other, you know, when you were pointing out, you know, not 842 00:43:52,823 --> 00:43:54,683 doing by the hour, reminded me. 843 00:43:54,833 --> 00:44:00,203 It has been, the system has been, uh, for decades in Marsay, in the south 844 00:44:00,203 --> 00:44:04,253 of France with, um, waste collection so that the garbage collectors 845 00:44:04,673 --> 00:44:07,223 are paid, not by the hour, but by. 846 00:44:08,253 --> 00:44:11,853 When is the garbage collected, and if you can do it and if you can do it 847 00:44:11,853 --> 00:44:16,773 in 10 hours, Why we're just going to leave you on your truck for another 12. 848 00:44:16,773 --> 00:44:18,783 Like, just so you're, you've put in the hours. 849 00:44:18,783 --> 00:44:19,443 That's ridiculous. 850 00:44:19,773 --> 00:44:23,463 Now would that, unfortunately in Marsay that's often meant that 851 00:44:23,493 --> 00:44:26,343 the job has half-assed because then they could get out early. 852 00:44:26,463 --> 00:44:28,803 So there is that question of quality control. 853 00:44:28,983 --> 00:44:33,003 Um, but if you fix that, then it's absolutely, um, something, something 854 00:44:33,003 --> 00:44:36,003 that can be done that just reminded me of, I'm also terrible at self 855 00:44:36,003 --> 00:44:37,683 promotion, but I'm going to do it anyway. 856 00:44:38,013 --> 00:44:41,703 Um, you, my work is@borderlinepod.com. 857 00:44:42,663 --> 00:44:46,533 You can find the podcast, which, uh, just had a great episode. 858 00:44:46,653 --> 00:44:49,263 If I'm a see, saw myself come out yesterday, uh, which I 859 00:44:49,263 --> 00:44:51,513 loved, there's a newsletter that you can subscribe to there. 860 00:44:51,513 --> 00:44:52,413 A lot of it is free. 861 00:44:52,413 --> 00:44:54,723 You can support it, uh, with a paid membership. 862 00:44:54,783 --> 00:44:58,323 Actually, a lot of it is free and, uh, and, uh, yeah, I 863 00:44:58,323 --> 00:44:59,463 hope you'll, you'll join us. 864 00:44:59,463 --> 00:44:59,793 There. 865 00:44:59,793 --> 00:45:03,303 There's a community of, of global citizens talking about work and 866 00:45:03,303 --> 00:45:06,633 life and immigration and all these things that happen in the 867 00:45:06,633 --> 00:45:10,953 spaces between, uh, countries and cultures, where a lot of us live now. 868 00:45:11,688 --> 00:45:12,678 Including the two of us. 869 00:45:14,718 --> 00:45:15,078 All right. 870 00:45:15,078 --> 00:45:16,068 Well, thanks everyone. 871 00:45:16,098 --> 00:45:17,358 We're gonna sign off. 872 00:45:17,448 --> 00:45:20,028 Um, we'll be back. 873 00:45:20,028 --> 00:45:20,838 We'll be back next week. 874 00:45:20,838 --> 00:45:21,438 Same time. 875 00:45:21,558 --> 00:45:25,728 We're going to keep doing this, um, uh, throughout the summer, minus a 876 00:45:25,728 --> 00:45:29,148 few weeks where we'll be on holiday, but, um, we'll, we'll keep talking 877 00:45:29,238 --> 00:45:31,368 about working across borders. 878 00:45:31,398 --> 00:45:32,868 So stay tuned for the day. 879 00:45:33,588 --> 00:45:33,768 And 880 00:45:33,768 --> 00:45:35,928 Lauren Razavi: feel free, feel free to get in touch with us. 881 00:45:35,928 --> 00:45:38,298 If there's something in particular you'd like to hear us talk about, 882 00:45:38,298 --> 00:45:40,428 because I would very happy to do that. 883 00:45:40,668 --> 00:45:41,148 Totally 884 00:45:41,148 --> 00:45:42,408 Isabelle Roughol: drop it in the comments. 885 00:45:42,648 --> 00:45:46,068 My email is ISA isa@borderlinepod.com. 886 00:45:46,398 --> 00:45:48,678 Um, you know, get in touch. 887 00:45:51,318 --> 00:45:52,128 Lauren Razavi: Thanks guys. 888 00:45:52,308 --> 00:45:52,668 Bye