Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
, people, this is an interesting, , and rather exceptional
podcast we have coming up.
I just want to give a disclaimer.
There will be some potential triggers in here.
We'll be talking about, , suicide, suicidal ideation, and also some
aspects of the supernatural.
So if any of these three things are trigger points for
you, please switch off now.
Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our
audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up,
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really, really helps us to make the pro.
To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries,
books, and other courses, please go to rupertisakson.
com.
So now let's jump in.
Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free, where we talk to people
who have lived and are living self-actualized lives of all kinds.
And what can we learn from them?
Today, Emily K's daughter you're gonna think I'm nuts.
Emily doesn't just talk to animals.
She talks to the stones, the mountains, the trees, the lot.
And those of you who know me will know that I'm actually quite skeptical of
this because in the work that I do with horses and with autism, I get a lot of
people coming and saying, oh, I'm an animal communicator and blah, blah, blah.
And usually my bullshit meter goes, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
And the reason it does that is because frequently the reports of what the animals
are saying or whatever is often somehow negative towards the humans or something.
And I, in my time with the Bushman the sun in the Kalahari where
there's a lot of direct animal communication going on, those kinds
of things are never the message.
They're always much more within the animals sphere of reference
of which we are peripheral, not.
Central.
And so this idea that, well, you know, my rider doesn't ride me well enough, or
something like that, just always struck me as sort of one human to another human,
sort of using the horse as a, you know, way to criticize another human basically.
But the fact is that communication with nature is a real thing and has been a real
thing ever since humanity has been here.
Because guess what?
We're part of nature.
And if you've spent any time with hunting and gathering people, some of
you listening have, you will know that the way in which they communicate with
the environment around them, anima and inanimate is appears supernatural.
However they would posit and I think I would posit having spent
a lot of time with them, that it's not supernatural, it's natural,
it's just that it's happening on a level that we have forgotten, lost
the need for, become deaf to, et cetera in post agricultural society.
So anyway, that was a long preamble to say that Emily is one of the
few people I've met who seems to have an unbroken connection.
Despite being within our society.
And I find this fascinating and I want her to talk to us about it.
So, and, and how really this has defined her life and, and
her livelihood and everything.
So, Emily, welcome.
I hope I did you justice.
Tell us who you are, what you do.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Thank you for having me here.
And as you and I know but maybe the listeners do not, is that you helped me
a great deal by, by saying that, this way of relating to your surroundings
which I have recently just given the concept name empathic inter being that
that is a natural state for human being.
So maybe I'm not the weirdo after all.
And that was both very devastating for my ego and helpful for myself.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, sorry.
I'll try to stroke your ego.
No, no.
We inate of course.
No,
Emelie Cajsdotter: once we got it crashed, please don't put it together again.
Yes, it's, it's hard to know where to begin.
An answer to that question.
Start,
Rupert Isaacson: start at the beginning.
Okay.
You, I forgot to say that you're in Sweden.
You are in a very natural place in, in Western Sweden.
But take us back to your beginning because I know that you were not always
raised in nature that no, not at all.
How did this evolve for you to start as a small girl?
And just take us on the journey, please.
Emelie Cajsdotter: I think when people see the work I do today, which
is living in nature, working with biodiversity, communicating with all
sorts of living entities it's easy to think that I grew up in the countryside
in very sort of loving and caring environment, but it was the opposite.
I don't mean to blame anyone by saying that it wasn't loving and caring.
It, it was a, a great destructive mess as I think why,
Rupert Isaacson: why
Emelie Cajsdotter: or civilization in many places are.
My father I grew up in a highrise building in the outskirts of Gothenburg in Sweden.
One of these high rise building with sort of 10 floors and several doors in.
And I had a key around my neck because, there weren't
really very many adults around.
And it was this sort of concrete jungle type environment.
And my father, who most likely today would have been given some sort of
diagnosis within the autistic spectrum, was a researcher in abstract mathematics.
And that he could do, he was apparently very, very
intelligent in that narrow field.
And he lived his life on that very fine line.
That fine line.
Didn't include any social skills any capacity to at all interact
with his surroundings including me.
And he died when I was five in what was most likely suicide.
He had asthma and he mixed his asthma medicines so that he suffocated and died.
And I was five at the time, and I was with him when that happened.
So I would say that that had a huge impact on me and still do.
It's like there are things that you sort of get over and that there are things
that you learn to integrate in your being.
And I would say that that would be one of those.
Rupert Isaacson: Does that mean you actually watched him die?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, I watched him die.
Rupert Isaacson: Can please, if it's all right, take us through that, because
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that could mean so many things.
Can you, can you be as clear as you can be?
What, what happened?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Well, I was five and people think, tend to think that children are
very unaware of what happens around them, especially in a younger age.
And I have very clear memories from a very young age, and maybe because
those are my links to my ancestral memories and maybe I, my being would
be more alert to really collect them somehow knowing that he would pass.
This was not the only complication.
My mother was not really equipped for the role of having children.
And she knew that she knew that that was, this was really not at all doable for
her for various reasons, but she grew up in a, in a generation where having
a husband and children is what you do.
So.
It, it was what it was.
She couldn't really at all deal with having children.
So, and since my father was also incapable of any kind of care it was
my mother's mother, that grandmother that would basically raise me.
And she was a psychic healer.
So thi this is the, this is the little pool.
Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly, you were an only child?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
I think maybe, I mean, as much inspiration I got from this upbringing, I, it
might also be a good thing that there weren't a lot of kids in this situation.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And then the second thing, this grandmother.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Your mother's mother.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Also in the tower block there in
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah, in another highrise building.
Actually, not in the beginning, but after my father died and she realized
that this is all gonna go to pot she moved to another highrise building.
Where, where was she
Rupert Isaacson: before that?
Was she more in the country or, or No,
Emelie Cajsdotter: she was in the middle of the city as well.
Her interesting dream was always to become a mathematician.
She was also highly intelligent in that measurable way that
makes sense for mathematics, if
Rupert Isaacson: well, all these people working for Saab.
I know that Gotham, no,
Emelie Cajsdotter: none of none of them were
Rupert Isaacson: center for the Saab.
Emelie Cajsdotter: My father was working in the university and my
mother was working in the university too, because she has this whatever
unusual skill with languages.
So she speaks seven languages.
And your mother?
Yes.
They all have like racing heads.
Rupert Isaacson: Is your mother still around?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Okay.
And so, so did my grandmother, but my grandmother being born
sort of, well more than a hundred years ago she was never allowed to
pursue in any studies of that kind.
Rupert Isaacson: And when you say she was a psychic healer, sorry,
I'm, there's a journalist in me.
I've gotta piece all puzzle pieces together first before we.
Psychic Keila.
How did you know?
How did she know?
And in that urban context, that's million
Emelie Cajsdotter: dollar question.
She was very good at looking into people's future, and I didn't
really like that because she
Rupert Isaacson: would do that as a party trick.
She'd do that for a living.
No, no, no.
People came
Emelie Cajsdotter: to ask her for help and she never charged money.
She had some other daily,
Rupert Isaacson: but how did that evolve?
How did it evolve that, did she go around saying, oh, and by the way,
you, oh no, people just, you're gonna blow your nose next Tuesday week.
Or like, how did people find out and how did, I
Emelie Cajsdotter: don't know because I was so young, but they just, they just
knew and they just, and people would were
Rupert Isaacson: around coming to her.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
They would come to her.
And I, they never
Rupert Isaacson: asked.
She never told how it evolved.
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, actually I never really thought of it
until you ask now, to be honest.
Anyway.
She would very good at, at that's, that's brilliant.
No, she would see people's future.
And I found that a bit uncomfortable because it, it raised the question
in me whether there actually is a, a set destiny or not.
And I didn't really like that.
Mm.
So I didn't want her to see anything about me.
Some, she said a few things anyway, because she just couldn't stop herself.
And, and so far she's been correct.
But she also believed in all sorts of guardian, angels,
reincarnation all of these things.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you know how she evolved these beliefs?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Because it doesn't sound like it was in the family culture.
The family culture was very cerebral and very intellectual.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
I have no idea where that comes from.
Was she religious?
Interesting thing is that on my father's side his sister has almost
the same qualities and nobody knows where that comes from either.
Okay.
So
Rupert Isaacson: strange northern people.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Yes.
And she was such a good healer that if I was at home and she was at home and I
had a headache because I had migraines for as long as I can remember, and
I would have a migraine coming on, I would call her and she would just do
something that I wouldn't know over the phone and the headache would go.
And, and to me that was always normal and.
And when I started to have experiences myself and, and, and being confused and
scared and overwhelmed, I would tell her logically she would be the one to tell.
And she would always tell me that it's normal.
She never made a big deal out of it.
She never made me feel special, and she never made me feel wrong.
So, thinking about it afterwards, I think that approach of this
is fine, this is normal was very helpful in whatever happened later.
Rupert Isaacson: And she never, she never asked, told you, or you never
asked, where does this come from, granny?
You know how No.
Okay.
There.
No, it just felt
Emelie Cajsdotter: natural and normal.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And before my father died he went to her and asked
her if she could look after me.
And she saw him dying.
She told me that years later she saw him dying and didn't want to believe it.
Mm-hmm.
So, but she didn't want to upset him, so she said, yes, of course I will.
And then he died.
So, she would be my sort of human contact, but she, I think she taught
me so many things, and maybe one of the most important things she
taught me, because she later ended up committing suicide as well, but then
I was 17 years old is that there is nothing black and white in this life.
Mm-hmm.
It's not that.
How could she teach me all the things that has proven to be so helpful
throughout my life and still not being able to live with herself?
How, how is that possible?
And, and how can my father who I felt some strange bond to, although he
could never show emotions in the usual way, he could definitely radiate love.
How could he kill himself?
And I come to this soothing free conclusion after
dealing with this for years.
Is that because all of it is possible at the same time?
It's, yes.
My grandmother could teach me all these things and she still
couldn't live with herself.
And both are true.
And although they are completely contradictory they can definitely
coexist within the same human being.
And it doesn't affect my love for her or for any other of my
highly destructive family members.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's just go back to, I, I want to delve into, in, in
a moment what we think the motives.
'cause I suspect the motives for each of them to take their own lives
were probably a little different.
And I think this is a, a worthwhile topic to explore for the reasons that you just
mentioned, and that many things can exist simultaneously, including timelines.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
You
Rupert Isaacson: know, having, again, spent a lot of time
with indigenous people.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
And I think for, sorry, for a modern, civilized human being you could say
that this was a harsh learning curve.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes,
Emelie Cajsdotter: for sure.
But maybe a small chart
Rupert Isaacson: because, you know, you also rely on your parents to
Emelie Cajsdotter: but maybe that's what it takes to break down this linear mind.
Rupert Isaacson: Right, right.
And linear, I think is the word there, because if one thinks of time as, as
vertical, which indigenous people tend to that, as far as I've been aware,
then as you say, things are happening simultaneously, past, present, and future.
We think of it obviously very much as linear.
And are brought up to think that way.
And of course it's comforting.
I feel more to, and I'm all about comfort.
I think comfort is good to think of it as vertical.
But let's just go back to, I just want to now dial us back to your father.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Yes, please.
Rupert Isaacson: You are you, you said, you say you, were you in
the room with him when he died?
Like, did you see him die?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I saw him almost die which also is a storyline.
He had taken those medications, he mixed his medications, and later I
was told that he'd mixed them several times before and ended up in hospital.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: So I understand that he, to some
extent, knew what he was doing.
And this was between Christmas and New Year's.
And I remember that Christmas, I was clinging onto him in a way that I would
never do because, because he wasn't physically accessible as a father.
You couldn't sit on his lap.
You couldn't hug him.
He didn't, that, that's not how you interacted with him.
But and, and for me, that was fine.
But on that Christmas, I remember like really grasping him, like holding on.
Legs and arms and clothes and whatever.
So, so somehow I knew and, and, and he knew that, that there,
there is a parting coming.
And when it actually happened, he was sitting on the bed in the bedroom
looking out through the window.
And outside of these windows in this flat, we were on the third
floor, were this amazing old tool.
Although we were in the city beach trees, like huge, very dark stamps.
And, and it took me many years to fully understand how present they were.
It's like, yeah, you think you're alone and, and you're
vulnerable and very exposed.
You are when you're a kid and everything is falling apart.
But those trees, they were there and they helped much more than,
than I was aware of at the time.
So they were also there.
So he's looking out of the window at the trees and so am I, he's not looking
at me, we're not having any contact.
And I understand that he can't breathe and he's about to fall,
so he collapses on the floor.
So I see him collapse on the floor and I think that he is
still in his body as that happens.
And sometime around that time, the neighbors comes and they take me out
and they, and they say that, oh, he's, he, he only has difficulty swallowing.
I know that he's dying.
But I think the fact that I, at that point in time didn't see his spirit
leaving left me in a state of something that later turned into quite an extreme
workaholic personality where I spent many years trying to save and rescue, I
dunno how many individuals and animals, mainly, I mean, we have a sanctuary here.
And I'm not saying that that's wrong, but in adult years I
understood that within me.
He wasn't really fully dead.
It took me years to accept that he was.
So, every time I got a chance to save someone, there was hope for him.
And every time I couldn't, I had to face this bottomless pain
of accepting that he's gone.
So you could say that that story went on past that point.
Although after his death, quite shortly after, I could see him sitting in the
living room, always in the yellow pajamas.
I have no idea why he would always have those clothes on.
But and, and I could talk to him and I realized that he is dead.
But he's visible to me sometimes.
I can't control it.
I can't ask him to come.
But sometimes he comes.
And you mentioned the reason for him choosing to die, and, and I
think he answered that in, in one of those early meeting points.
Then I went on into my own self-destructiveness.
So
Rupert Isaacson: you can't go on, you just gotta tell us what that is.
You can't drop that and leave it.
No,
Emelie Cajsdotter: no, no, no.
I'm gonna go.
Okay.
But what, what he said is that the difference between
you and me is the words.
And what I understand from that sentence is that.
Yes.
I also live a life that is quite a thin thread that goes
far out from what's normal.
But I have a way to reconnect to the common world of fellow human
beings, which is through the words.
And he didn't he left a box of equations that no one could solve.
He never expressed himself except that one time after death.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think he left because he found it to painful to be here?
Do you think he left because he felt he could do his work
better from another place?
Do you think it was an act of, was it an act of distress, him taking his life?
Or was it an act of
logical creativity to sort of go to the next professional phase or something?
What, what, what, what do you
Emelie Cajsdotter: I always felt it was more on the desperate side.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: What, what was it that he found so painful, do you think?
Because if he had the job in the university and he could exist
in that mathematical world.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
You know, he had to, and then
Emelie Cajsdotter: he had been offered a job at Stanford University
too, so he could have gone deeper.
Mm-hmm.
And probably met more people that wouldn't find him so odd.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: But he, he chose not to which is unexplainable.
But I think what I continue to explore after this and still do,
is the isolation of modern humans.
Mm-hmm.
I think there is a specific pain in isolation that may not be like emotional
heartbreak, the type of pain or anxiety, pain or those things that we can phrase,
but another overwhelming pain that is both inside and outside and might be the reason
why we feed ourselves so much stimuli and why we are so costly for this planet.
And I, I think for him that isolation was, very obvious and maybe the things
that more so-called normal people would do to suit that pain didn't work for him.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think in another, perhaps more authentic human
context he'd have been All right.
And if so, what would that context have been and what would his
role have been, do you think?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I think when I live with animals, any
other species, I notice that when you remove the filter of linear
thinking, you also remove hierarchy.
And when you remove hierarchy based on values everyone seemed to have a
unique role that is unmeasurable in value and uncomparable with anyone else.
And what I also notice is an obvious acceptance that you're
not meant to be anything else that would be stupid to be honest.
So it seems like everyone else except the modern human, linear
society is making maximum use of.
Individual capacity one way or another which means that you don't have to
do things that you're not meant to or that you're not cut out to be able to.
Which means that if he lived in, in a, in a herd of horses, he could
probably have spent his whole life diving into this far, far, far
away place of abstract mathematics.
And someone else would make sure that the wolves don't eat him or that they
do get to the water place and that he does get to sleep sometimes thinks that
he could never really do for himself as a human being would maybe in a
different society be okay because it would fit somebody else's unique role,
Rupert Isaacson: I guess.
Right.
My question there though is that he was, he was clearly valued, right?
He had a job at the university so people saw the value of
his mathematical brilliance.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
But I think it's in the relate, in the, in the possibility to relate to others.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Right.
So the, the professional context not being enough, even if you're
surrounded by your fellow nerds.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Yes.
And, and, and if you look at so I think we've all along been
looking for the same thing, but my approach is completely different.
I think when,
when I would try to explain any of what empathic, inter being would be.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's not, it's not being psychic, it's not reading
something, it's not interpreting someone.
It is for a moment fully with all senses, experience the
other one's reality from within.
And that can only happen if I am available to the same extent for the other one.
Rupert Isaacson: So feeling gotten
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Feeling seen.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
So I exist in you and you exist in me, and I think that is
probably our original context.
Mm.
And when we lose that.
We begin to experience some sort of alienation that is
harder for some than others.
But I would say that a lot of states of being that is normal
in, in modern human life is maybe a symptom of lack of empathic
inter being and not normal at all.
I I, I've heard you talk sometimes and you seem to often mention
that joy is a natural state.
I would agree.
And so what every other species that I've met so far.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: So why do we have so little joy?
And, and, and why does it disappear in such an early, why do we stop
playing earlier and earlier?
We do.
Rupert Isaacson: I think, I think we're told to, I think we're conditioned.
Yeah.
But in our, in our natural state, I don't think we do.
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.
So, so there are lots of things that we take for granted as a normal maturing of
a human being that might not be at all.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Yeah.
There's, well, I put away childish things.
I'm like, fuck that.
I mean, really, honestly I'm just thinking as, you know, I'm, I'm
just imagining, I'm projecting in my imagination your father as being, say
in the Kalahari or, you know, east Africa or Paleolithic, even Neolithic
Europe, you know, and I'm imagining him.
Organizing the construction of a stone circle
Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly that, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: and so those are my questions, you know, it's like, okay,
who built those ancient observatories that now we realize go back way
further than we thought they did?
You know, with the new findings that Gobekli Tepi and earlier archeological
things that are, that are now rewriting the whole human history thing from when
I was an archeologist and historian at university, which is, you know,
starts with the Sumer 6,000 years ago.
It's mm-hmm.
You know, Goli, Tepi, they now know is 6,000 years older than that, and they
just found another one close and there's this new one in Indonesia that's older
and these were being organized by people.
And you could say, well, yeah, he was doing that at the university in Goberg.
Yeah.
But not in a way, but in a way that was isolated.
Okay, you must sit here in this department of mathematics or
this department of physics at the end of this corridor in a box.
And you, and now do your equations.
Put them in a box.
Yeah, exactly.
Rather than.
Observe the heavens.
Mm-hmm.
Show us how to observe the heavens.
Exactly.
Be our mad, beautiful druid who emanates love.
Yes, we will absolutely make sure that there's venison for you because
we need to understand why that strange light in the sky is coming.
We need you to make those calculations for us please.
And we realize that that's gonna take you, you know, five months of
just sort of more or less sitting in your heart while we bring you things
and we are going to work on healing you and we are going to love you.
Exactly.
And let you be.
Emelie Cajsdotter: That would've worked is my, that would've
Rupert Isaacson: worked.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I get it.
I get it.
Because, you know, he must have had a great joy like I could
imagine when he was in flow and he was in the zone with his Oh,
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.
When he was flow, flow, he would gallop around in the living room
and jump up and down and make little noises which was hilarious to watch.
Okay.
So he, he did express himself, but not, not the way you would
expect an adult man of his age to.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So he was playing among the fractals and the fib sequence
and the beauty of creation.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But unable to
Emelie Cajsdotter: gallop on the spot like a horse.
Fantastic.
Something
Rupert Isaacson: autistic behaviors.
Yeah.
No, a, a amazing.
Okay.
So he leaves.
Mm-hmm.
You are there when that happens.
You are five.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's go on from there.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, the thing is you might think, think that lots
of things happened after, but I would say that a lot of things also happened
before, and, and I know that they happened before because this is such a
cut in my timeline, so I know how old I am depending on if he's alive or not.
So I know that before the age of five I have this obsessive, I
would call it obsessive fascination with the end of consciousness.
So my thought that I can't let go of to the point of having panic
attacks and not being able to sleep is is the universe expanding or not?
This is what I think about constantly.
But I can't really phrase it because I'm too young.
But this is, this is on.
Why
Rupert Isaacson: would that have mattered to you?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I have no idea.
But it did, I mean, it was a matter of life and death.
I could not stop thinking about it.
And, and I still find it fascinating.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you ask your dad, did you ask those adults around you because
they seem to have been the people who would've also thought of such questions?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Maybe we did, did discuss some of it.
I don't know.
But what I do remember is this constant thought and finally
coming to the conclusion that maybe the universe is expanding.
I think I came to that conclusion because that was the easier for my mind.
So I.
If it was expanding, it would have an edge because otherwise there wouldn't be
a sort of something that would expand.
Expand.
And if you come to the edge, if you come to the edge, how can you get past the
edge and remain aware of that happening?
How can you cross the boundary into what is non-existent and still exist beyond it?
And then I, I would go to that point and then I would sit and tell
myself the word eternity, eternity, eternity, until I got so dizzy and,
and would hyperventilate and panic.
And then I, and then I had this pile of Donald Duck magazines.
'cause I learned to read when I was really young.
Sort of, I remember sort of instant.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah, yeah.
And, and I would turn on the light, look at Donald Duck for some reason.
Donald Duck.
My mind would calm down and, and, and understand exactly what I was looking at.
Then I would close the lamp and I would start all over again.
And I would've nightmares and, and, and scream and cry.
And, but I could not, I was so drawn to, to that Okay.
Sort of far end of the, of, of what was still accessible to my mind.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And I still is yes, I'm still extremely fascinated of what
happens when we expand ourselves beyond what is possible for the, for the mind.
I st I still find that very fascinating, but maybe not to this or maybe
I still do get anxiety from it.
I don't know actually, but I did when I was young.
So that was before he died.
You would think that you would have all these existential thoughts because you
experience death, but that started before.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So you are dealing with the idea of the limits of consciousness very, very young.
Then your father does die.
Yeah.
Can you take us through the rest of your childhood now go into
your childhood, into adolescence.
Take us on that journey.
Emelie Cajsdotter: After my father died, I, I had a real fear.
I mean.
Existential anxiety is something because you choose it somehow.
But this was real fear because I knew that I was left with my mother, whom
I was terrified of because she really had these temper tantrums and fits
that was completely unpredictable.
Okay.
So I was really really afraid of being home, of going home alone.
And because I grew up in this neighborhood where it was this sort of high rise
buildings is usually for people who for some reason don't have a lot
of money or they have other issues.
So there would be quite a lot of alcoholics and drug addicts
and other broken families.
Even
Rupert Isaacson: though your dad had a good job at the university and so on.
Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Could he have afforded something different or,
Emelie Cajsdotter: I don't know.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Interesting questions
Rupert Isaacson: because yeah.
You associate university professors with living in nicer neighborhoods and things
Emelie Cajsdotter: like that.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
That was never explained to you?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
But okay.
You're in a slightly depressed neighborhood and
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.
Which means that there are lots of other kids with broken homes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And we find each other and form some sort of family of our own.
So, that I would say was quite helpful.
Okay.
And I could explain to them that I don't dare to go home by myself.
My mother threatened to kill herself and because to me that was a real threat.
It could happen.
Yeah.
I didn't want to find her dead, so I made sure I always had a friend coming
with me if I was going home after school.
Okay.
And from the age of seven, I started to ride in a riding school.
Rupert Isaacson: Why, how did that happen?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I just wanted to be near animals.
I always wanted to be near animals, but my why
Rupert Isaacson: riding?
Why ponies?
Why horses?
Why not dogs?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I didn't really care about riding.
It was just a pool.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And who organized that for you?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I think it was my grandmother.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: She was behind a lot of those sort of doesn't,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
It doesn't sound like a decision your mom would've made at that
Emelie Cajsdotter: point.
No.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And because we're in the city and the stable
is in the city, so I cycle there.
So I cycle to the stable almost every day.
And I'm with a friend in another high rise building and her mother is working
as a, she doesn't know who her father is.
So she lives alone with her mother.
And her mother is a waitress in a bar that at that time started to have drag shows.
And this was new in the time.
Right.
And I, I still love drag shows after this.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
How can you not?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: He doesn't love a good drag show.
Much of
Emelie Cajsdotter: everything, right?
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: But anyway, joy.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm an autism dad and we have
a whole career before this podcast in helping people with neurodivergence,
either who are professionals in the field.
Are you a therapist?
Are you a caregiver?
Are you a parent?
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
I really didn't know what to do.
So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
Temple Grandin.
And she told me what to do.
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal.
Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings.
If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
approach, it's called Movement Method.
You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply.
It's almost laughably simple.
The important thing is to begin.
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
Grandin and see what results can follow.
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
com Sign up as a gold member.
Take the online movement method course.
It's in 40 countries.
Let us know how it goes for you.
We really want to know.
We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Since I couldn't really go home most of the time
and she didn't have a father and she was working nights, um mm-hmm.
My friend's mother would take both my friend and me with her to her work.
Ah.
So we would hide behind this huge velvet, courteous and look at these big guys when
they were putting on loose tits and Yeah.
Makeup and glittery dresses and yeah.
I, I, I love that.
I still love the feeling of sort of, because we knew that we
were a bit too young to be there
Rupert Isaacson: shapeshifting and role play.
Yes.
Interesting.
Yes, yes.
That shamanic process of transformation.
Yes.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And I loved it.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And there was some, there was something in there and they
were happy and they were friendly and and sort of courageous in their own way.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Non-judgmental, absolutely.
Supportive of each other.
It
Emelie Cajsdotter: was amazing.
I didn't know that that world existed.
Rupert Isaacson: How old are you now at this point?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm probably like 7, 8, 9 years old.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: That sort of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: And you, you found you're cycling to a.
When you're not going to drag shows and at school you are, you're
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Drag shows or, and writing school
Rupert Isaacson: brings, brings drag hunting the idea of drag.
Yeah.
And when you are exposed to the ponies at this point, are you talking to them?
Are they talking to you?
Or does this come later?
Well,
Emelie Cajsdotter: this, this begins this begins I to begin.
Do you
Rupert Isaacson: remember the first time?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, definitely.
Please,
Rupert Isaacson: please tell us.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
This is a riding school that is an image of civilization.
This is in the middle of the city.
All the horses are tied up in stalls.
There are almost no fields.
They're in a very traditional regime.
This riding school has changed now to something totally different, but back
then a regime that is based on obedience.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Like you do as you're told, or you will be sold or killed.
Yeah.
And, and the horses that come naturally, they come to this riding school with
quite a lot of energy or vital force, although a lot of them come through
horse tradesmen and they've had a troublesome past before they end.
Well, you know how it is.
Rupert Isaacson: I do.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And then they get broken down quite quickly.
You, you see how they start with this natural.
Playfulness taking initiative, making contact, all of these things.
And you see that fall off them as they stay on this writing school.
And then eventually they will develop some sort of physical lameness or
other issue, or they will become really aggressive and then they're gone.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: This was, this was the situation.
And so one day this pony comes to this writing school and she's small pony, a
chestnut mare, really, really aggressive.
And in the world of linear hierarchy it's very important.
Who's the boss?
The whole idea is about that.
So a horse that makes you frightened needs to know whose boss basically,
so to deal with her aggression, she's met with more aggression.
Sure.
And usually that will make one part give up.
And usually that part is the horse because they have a very bad starting
point because they were slave in the slave trade to begin with.
So, but this pony doesn't give up.
She attacks back and she really attacks back.
And if people keep beating her to the point that she's not attacking back
anymore, she just freezes and waits.
She never submits, she never shows any sign of submission.
So then people start to, and this is the writing school teachers, they
start to try to give her sweetss.
This is around the time when, when horses were given sugar cubes.
So they would put out their hands and give her sugar cubes and she would
bite the hand, refuse the sugar cube, making a statement of that and leaving.
So this horse begins to really fascinate me.
Because for me, yes, I do have a good time at the drag shows and
I love being with my friends, but inside this, I am, I am breaking,
because I'm terrified of my mother.
I'm terrified of being home.
I feel no sense of value whatsoever.
I have this unnameable grief over my father that I can't understand or phrase.
I anyway have all these existential thoughts that can't stop
because my mind is racing just like on all my ancestry lines.
So it's very hard to be me.
So
I'm beginning to, I would say, lose myself at this time.
Mm-hmm.
And I also begin to feel that may be dying is the only way out.
'cause I know that dying is a way out.
It's present.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: you've observed it.
Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: So, and I'm not really afraid of that.
As much as I have no bloody clue how to live in this society.
So when I see this pony who obviously is impossible to break
down, it makes me very curious.
What, what is her strength?
What is her motivation?
Why, why is she, because for most of us, it's like the lack
of punishment becomes the reward.
Is that Sure.
Is she all
Rupert Isaacson: right with a child on her back?
Like it does she, that's
Emelie Cajsdotter: what throw She throws them off.
Rupert Isaacson: She throws them off.
Okay.
So, and 'cause that was gonna be my question too, about some of these ponies
that come, okay, they're not having a nice time in the writing school, but do they.
Enjoy to some degree the relationship with the children that come.
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm sure some do.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, some horses that I meet in riding schools now and, and I definitely would
say that there are riding schools doing a fabulous job of merging these worlds.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And when I meet riding school horses that are really content
in the setting, they're in, I would say they always describe that they have
this group of students that they really relate to and they feel that they totally
matter in how these individuals evolve.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Would be very similar.
Exactly.
They're generous.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
They're generous.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: But this is not the case with this pony.
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.
And this is not the case, the way that place is being run at that time.
Rupert Isaacson: So you become fascinated with this pony.
What Then
Emelie Cajsdotter: I become fascinated because what is it that
she has that nobody else have?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: How, how, why is she not breaking down and
how can she be so courageous?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
' Emelie Cajsdotter: cause she knows that she's going to be bitten and treated
horribly, but somehow for her, it's worth it rather than losing herself.
Mm-hmm.
So.
Why does she like picks this, this fight?
Mm-hmm.
So I go down to her stable and I don't dare to go in
because they're tied in stalls.
And what she does is that she looks at these people with her ears forward, and
then when they go in, she kicks them into the wall and don't let them out.
And sometimes she bites people's stomachs and she don't let go.
And, and I've seen that happen and they sort of scream and many
people have to go in and take them out and it's quite terrifying.
So I don't dare to go in, but I'm totally fascinated and I think that
this original genuine fascination without an agenda might be one of
the keys to what's gonna happen next.
Because basically my question to her is, who are you?
It's not, can you please change?
Why are you doing this?
Why can't you behave?
It's who I really want to know who she is.
And now when the horse is here years later, have started a school
in empathic into being for humans, this is the question that we work
with the most, the curiosity to really meet the essence of another
living, being without any other want.
Not because I want something of you, not because I want it to lead
to anywhere, just because I want.
To be where, where you are somehow.
So this is what I feel when I stand outside of her stable.
And then something happens that I would say is grace.
And, and maybe because I was so ready to give up.
I mean, I wanted to die anyway, so I don't really have a lot to lose
in having my image of the world torn down as I probably would have
if I was in a really good place.
Because what happens is that this invisible plexiglass wall that is
usually between each one of us in this type of society, meaning that I can see
you and I can relate to you, I can hear what you're saying, and I can to some
extent, through my biological design.
Also I do have mirror neurons.
So if you were sad, I would be sad, but I wouldn't know what it's like to be you.
It would always be how I feel when something happens to you and how I
interpret what happens to me when something happens to you, right?
In this case, this, this rule is taken off.
So.
Instantly and without any warning or preparation, I know
exactly how it is to be her.
It doesn't mean that I forget that I'm also Emily.
I know that I'm standing on the stable floor and, and observing her, but so
I know what is me and I know what is her, but all of a sudden I'm in her
and I'm also in her observing me.
So it's like I do feel exactly how it is to be her, but she also
feels exactly how it is to be me.
And all of these things are happening simultaneously without
any stress of comprehending all of that at the same time.
But what I do find, and I'm 11 at this time.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: What is frightening to me is that all of a sudden, my
entire foundation of how I've built, my way of looking at reality is gone.
It literally feels like someone pulls the carpet and you're standing
on a completely different floor.
And what is inside of her is this intense sadness and feeling of
being completely misunderstood.
And regardless of how high you scream and how strongly you
express yourself, no one hears you.
It, it, it, it's, it's like screaming inside of, you know, one
of those little boxes that has is soundproof so nothing comes out.
And that sense of extreme powerlessness was really overwhelming to me.
Now, when her feeling of extreme powerlessness hits me, it hits me in a
spot where I am forced to see myself.
Because if I, if I am completely experiencing you, I also have to have
this complete honesty in experiencing me, because now I'm being seen with
the same eyes from, from the other one.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm also faced with my own inner state unmasked my own desperation
feeling of never fitting in and not knowing how to live this life.
All of this is coming crashing in at exactly the same time.
And, and I, I realized what is what you would think that there is a
emerging, but it isn't because that will be a projection and this is not
so, and then she has this image of.
A big barn type building.
And I would never know if this building existed for real or if it is symbolic.
I can't tell.
But there is an image of a barn and a low wooden door.
I would say that any old Swedish wooden barn could look a bit like that.
And in this image, she is being forced to go in through this small narrow
door with some sort of whip or cane, or there is something long and narrow
and the feeling is to refuse to go into something that will diminish you.
And, and I'll never forget that feeling for as long as I live.
I think which answered my question.
Who, who are you?
Why are you so strong?
Well, this is her strength.
She refuses to adapt herself to a destructive
circumstance, and she never did
Rupert Isaacson: what happened to her in the end.
Emelie Cajsdotter: What happened to her in the end was that she got COPD,
which is chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and was going to be put down.
My grandmother realized that if this pony dies, maybe so will my granddaughter.
So, okay.
Rupert Isaacson: So you build a relationship with this pony?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Yes.
Because after this event, this, this happened, I don't know
for how long this went on.
Probably not very long in linear time, is my guess.
Not that anyone on the outside would notice.
You would just see a girl standing in a stable and a horse eating hay.
Right.
And it's completely life altering forever.
And, and I realized that there is another way I realized that there is something,
there is a way outta this isolation.
Rupert Isaacson: You go and tell your grandmother this,
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Immediately.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Not immediately, I think, but at some point
Rupert Isaacson: soon-ish.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Say, Hey granny, I've had this kind of Yes, yes.
And that
Emelie Cajsdotter: I feel this.
Exactly.
And then she would say, oh, well that's normal, and continue
with whatever she's doing.
Okay.
Usually what motor?
Okay,
Rupert Isaacson: so, so the, the horse develops a chronic ailment.
It's heading for a bullet job.
Probably.
Emelie Cajsdotter: I, I become her groom.
You know how it is in writing schools?
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Emelie Cajsdotter: I realized that this pony holds a key and in my Presumably she
Rupert Isaacson: doesn't pin you against the wall and rip your guts out.
She
Emelie Cajsdotter: does.
She does.
Yes, she does.
Every
Rupert Isaacson: time.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Almost.
This, this, this is also an interesting part and an important part.
Rupert Isaacson: How do you survive?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Lots of bruises.
She, I feel that she holds the key outta this reality, so I can't let go of her.
I understand that.
What she shows me is that that key is equally in me as it is in her.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: But with my linear mind, I need her to not
lose myself is my beginning point.
So I clinging on to this pony.
And the way to do that is to be her groom.
She hates being groomed.
Okay.
And I hang onto her like a drowning man to, you know, this sort of life vest.
And she begins to test me.
And I think that from a linear perspective, we tend to see
testing as a, as a power game.
Like you test someone until you know who's boss and then that sorted.
But what if the test is about who are you?
Do you know at all what you're made of?
What if that is the test?
And it's not about power at all, because if we remove the
hierarchy it's good for everyone.
Like literally everyone on the planet that I am the sort of utmost
honest, complete version of myself because that is my gift to this life.
And, and I'm broken and, and, and I want to die.
And I'm terrified of everything.
And, and I'm not in a good state.
Mm-hmm.
So this pony doesn't want to be groomed.
She doesn't want me to clinging on for emotional support.
She can't give any of that.
She knows that.
I have to find that in me.
So she brings me to this difficult test where most people sell their
horses, which is the test of endurance.
It's like, okay, so now you had a glimpse of what's possible?
Are you prepared to do the work?
So am I trustworthy to her?
Am I trustworthy to myself?
How do I deal with fear?
All of these things.
I go to her stable every day.
She bites and kicks me almost every day.
And after a year and a half and, and I begin to develop this love for her and I
begin to realize that that sort of love doesn't need any confirmation whatsoever.
And after a year and a half, she puts her muscle on my shoulder for two minutes.
And I'll never forget that either because I didn't.
Go there every day for a year and a half for her to do that.
She, she never needed to give me anything back.
And that was extremely helpful.
If, if I didn't go through those years with her, I would never work with animals
that has PTSD or go through these healing processes that takes 5, 6, 7, 10 years.
Maybe the first five without any results that you could see.
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.
After she puts her muzzle on your, on your shoulder, what, what happens
then to her, to you, to you both
Emelie Cajsdotter: Quite shortly after that, she gets sick.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And you could easily see how a horse would develop
a lung disease in an environment that is almost only indoors.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, totally.
I mean, it's, it's a known thing with overly stable horses.
Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And you could also maybe add an element of Chinese medicine
into the equation where lung diseases is considered, in some cases relating
to inherent fear and deep grief.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Emelie Cajsdotter: So, and what I saw was also a horse that constantly fought
for her integrity and she preserved that.
Hmm.
But that also means that during all the time that you do that,
because you're in a war I.
Hmm.
You don't do all these other things.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
That's exhaust.
Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And, and you don't live your life.
Right.
You don't thrive.
You don't develop your your qualities and talents.
You don't make friends, you survive.
You do every whatever it takes to survive, but you emotionally depleted.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And exhausted.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: So she's going to be put down for this.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: My grandmother interferes and buys this horse,
and at this point I'm 14 years old.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Have you been riding her?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
That works.
She's not throwing
Rupert Isaacson: you off?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, she's not throwing me off.
She's brilliant.
She runs really fast, you know, she, she takes the bit and just
takes off and, and I love it.
Rupert Isaacson: So by then, you guys have worked out a
relationship of riding together too?
Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
That was the sort of easy part, I would say.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Emelie Cajsdotter: it was.
And she
Rupert Isaacson: was chucking other people off before, right?
Yes.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, she was.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
But by now, she's, she's accepted you and you guys are cool together to what?
Yes.
Emelie Cajsdotter: We're even doing dressage together.
We are doing some sort of, you know, when there is this Christmas or Easter
or whatever, we are doing little things, you know, doing the quad
Rupert Isaacson: drills and the display and that.
Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Like these sort of mirror things when one tiny, because she
was very small, she's doing all these things and another big horse with the same
color is doing the same thing and Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Part the, yeah, yeah,
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.
That's the name.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.
So you guys work out some harmonious mm-hmm.
We do.
Relationship that she carries you, she agrees to carry you.
Yep.
Then she gets sick And your, your grandmother buys the pony.
Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: She buys the pony and I am over the moon because now I
think that it's all solved and over.
Right?
Yeah.
'cause I have no idea what you're in for.
When an animal decides to become your teacher, it's never over.
Right?
So she's being taken from the riding school and put in the
stable in the countryside where she can be outside all the time.
It's this open, stable, she can go in and out.
All the stress is taken away.
So in my world, all that's gonna happen next is that she's gonna
be well and everyone is will in
Rupert Isaacson: after.
Emelie Cajsdotter: She gets much worse because at that point, I don't know that
when you have a stress related disease of some sort, and you come to a place where
you are safe, everything comes crushing up to the surface at the same time.
Now, this is what I tell people when I'm out working and this happens to
them now I can be supportive of that.
But this is the first time it happens to me, so I have no idea.
So I try everything because now the old desperation is back.
If she dies, my life is over.
There is no opening to the world of non isolation.
And, and in the meantime, this door that opened between us in our first meeting
never really closed because it's like this double swinging door that is like this.
So if I'm with near an animal that isn't feeling well, all of
a sudden I turn into that animal.
This, I, I can't control this going in and out.
Rupert Isaacson: This is happening to you?
Yes.
From this point on with other animals?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Particularly animals that are not feeling well, that, that's
the only pattern I can see.
Mm-hmm.
I'm terrified of it and I don't really talk about it.
Yeah.
And then I try every treatment under the sun to heal this pony, like
alternative treatment, vet medicine.
Any other vet that someone heard of and Well, you know.
You go through it a lot because you're terrified.
And
Rupert Isaacson: well, it's also the quest you're called to you, you,
you, you are, you have to in a way.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Yes, yes.
Yeah, yeah.
And she responds to absolutely nothing.
And to me it's incomprehensible.
Why can't she get better from anything at all?
Then there is divine interference.
Divine interference comes in a form of a short notice in the local newspaper.
And it's my mother who spots it.
I mean, we really don't have much contact and it doesn't work very well.
But she, she spots this notice in the newspaper that says a veterinarian
from New Zealand is coming to Sweden to give a series of lectures in the
subject chronic pulmonary diseases in horses and alternative treatments
of, I mean, that is not happening.
That's too precise.
So my mother says, maybe you should go to this.
And yeah, I'm going to that lecture.
I don't listen to the lecture at all because my only focus is I need to
get this man to come and see the pony.
So directly after the lecture, I run to this old man and, and saying, you,
you have to come and see my pony.
And he says, yes, fine.
We can go tomorrow.
I can borrow a car.
And we go and see your pony because she's in the outskirts
of, she's now outside of the city.
And I take a bus out every day and cycle every day.
So two hours traveling every day to go to this pony.
It's still, the test of endurance is on, right?
And so we are supposed to meet the following day in a cafe.
And yeah, I go to the cafe and he says, well, the car broke
down so we can't go to your pony.
But now you have a choice.
Either you go back to school and make your teachers happy.
I wasn't too keen on school.
So it wasn't hard for me to skip.
Or you stay here and I will tell you about what I do.
And I didn't realize that this was one of these crossroads that really
matters because I was just desperate wanting the pony to get better.
So I thought, I don't want to lose connection to this guy.
So I stay.
And this man spent a full day talking to this kid about what he's doing,
which includes healing Chinese medicine, homeopathy all sorts of
energetically based treatments basically.
And during this whole day when we sit in this cafe, I begin to.
Remember something because somehow none of this is new to me.
This is something that some part of me already know, and all of
a sudden I understand that I am meant to do something similar.
This is why I get drawn in and out of animals because I'm meant
to be able to do something.
So, and it was such a huge relief to find that foundation
in me already at the age of 14.
Rupert Isaacson: Dot, dot, dot.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
So, then the next day, the car is fixed.
So he says, now we can go to the pony, because now the car works.
And she responds like clockwork to the treatment.
Rupert Isaacson: What does he do?
Emelie Cajsdotter: He puts needles he gives acupuncture and gives her a mixture
of herbs amongst them I know is Chili pepper because I have to go and buy it.
And she just immediately responds to that.
What was the
Rupert Isaacson: name of this bat?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Sorry, what was his name?
Tony Frith.
I'm, I'm, I don't know if he's still alive.
Rupert Isaacson: Tony Frith.
I might look him up later.
Emelie Cajsdotter: He, he is in New Zealand.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.
Please go on.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
And and he stays for another one or two weeks in Sweden.
So I follow him as an assistant.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
'cause
Emelie Cajsdotter: I really want to learn as much as possible, and he's
very kind in taking this kid on.
And I also realized that being such her name was period means the tiny one was
such a great teacher that the timing of healing, she's not sick because of me.
She's not sacrificing herself for my teaching, but the timing of
her disease and what I have to learn is absolutely brilliant.
And somehow she knows that because she doesn't have that fear that I
have, she has completely given herself to her destiny in a way that is at
that point, still unknown to me.
I mean, I struggle to keep everything together.
And then he, this, this vet, he leaves me with a bunch of acupuncture needles,
flies back to the other side of the world and says, now the rest is up to you.
And, and around the same time, my mother says the same thing.
My mother, who at that point suffers from a great depression.
She can't get outta bed.
I remember neighbors having to come in to sort of lift her around.
She was in a really bad state.
She was in a destructive relationship.
Plenty of those.
But this one may be a bit more particular.
And she tells me this is without anger.
She just says, I, I can't look after you.
Which, which is obvious.
I, I, I will give you a bank account card and the money, the grant you
get from the government each month for having a kid, which is about $80,
it's like you will get that amount of money that I would get for you.
And you just have to, you, you have to find a way.
Rupert Isaacson: And grandmother, is it still around at this point?
Emelie Cajsdotter: She's still around, but she is not really
feeling very well in herself either.
So I get more or less financially independent at that age.
Rupert Isaacson: This is what, nineteen eighty two, eighty three?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm born 74.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
It's a bit later then it's like Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's like late eighties.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And then and I have one talent that I don't have
to work for, and that is painting.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: So I become a portrait painter and financially
support me and this pony mm-hmm.
By painting portraits from that day on.
Okay.
Which I continued to do until.
I started to do this as a full-time living.
I mean, I don't have time to paint now, but hopefully I will go hide
somewhere at some point and continue.
Rupert Isaacson: Bit like me in writing.
Yeah.
Yes.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Okay.
Time.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So you are now 15, 16.
Emelie Cajsdotter: 14.
Rupert Isaacson: 14.
This happens at 14?
Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And meanwhile, adolescence has happened.
Puberty's happened.
Yeah.
And has that further opened up any kind of portals in your
perception, or has that changed any?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
That door I, I'm, I'm calmer with it because now I understand
that it has a context.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: But what happens in, in adolescence is that it becomes
messier meaning messies, maybe not, confusing is maybe a better word
because it's never, I never had, I had one really frightening experience,
but, and I brought that on myself.
We could do that one too.
It's a short one, but, but all good boys.
Yeah.
All my experiences with, with ancestors, with other species with.
It always comes from a source that has kindness.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: I, I've, I've never had an encounter with Ill intent
Rupert Isaacson: except for one you say?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, except for one.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Tell us that one.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
It was in this time when all of a sudden I could sit on the tram and
I would be in a different place.
I would see people that would be deceased or in amongst other people.
It, it, it was, it is like many doors going like this as adolescents is, even
if you don't add spirituality to it.
Right.
So, and, and I realized that I have to do something about this and, and, and
this only one bad event I have is when I have decided to not listen to any of it.
I have this short period, very short, maybe a few days
when I decide to be normal.
Get an education, get a proper job get myself a, you know, secure
foundation, not based on all these other things that no one can see or feel.
And and, and I decide to, you know, cut your hair and go and
get a job, that sort of thing.
So I, I decide to be normal and stop this bullshit nonsense.
And and at night when I'm just about to go to sleep and the room
is dark, I see this headless figure coming close, closer to the bed.
And it's really scary because it's just, it's just moving and I
can't, I can't communicate with it and I can't stop it from moving.
And any sort of prayer or way to try to get to a a center point doesn't work.
And I turn on the lamp and it doesn't work.
This, this, this being is just moving close.
I get sort of heart palpitations when I speak about it.
Now it's getting to here when I realize that, wait a minute, this
figure that I'm looking at, this headless figure is me, it's my body.
I am, I'm, I'm killing myself.
Okay?
Because the feeling was that this, this individual would come and suffocate me.
Hmm.
It's like, and ever since that experience, it is like, okay, I
promise I will never do anything normal and secure in my whole life.
So, and the
Rupert Isaacson: figure, when you have that realization,
the figure sort of evaporates.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Yeah.
They just wasn't there anymore.
Rupert Isaacson: So.
Interesting.
Are you still 14 or are you a bit older at this point?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm around that like 15.
Rupert Isaacson: Are you having relationships at this point
or are you very much a loner?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm a loner at this point, and I am slightly
uninterested in romantic relationships because my friends who has that, they
become slightly boring in my eyes.
Right.
They, they start to sort of sit inside and hold hands and
they're not out on adventures.
And and
Rupert Isaacson: are people, are people observing you, other
types of relationship too?
So are people observing, you say doing acupuncture on your pony, which
back then would've been something very new and so, and are people
now asking you to do similar things or are you kind of in isolation?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm, I'm in isolation in the sense that
I'm, I'm just doing this for me.
Mm-hmm.
The things I do for others is portrait painting.
Okay.
But I've always had friends.
And still do always lots and lots of friends.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And so you're not
Rupert Isaacson: isolated in that regard.
You are having relationships just not romantic.
Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And then I moved school, this is like now I'm probably 16.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And now, now the pony is back on track.
I mean, she's healed from her disease.
And, and I know what I'm meant to be doing.
So now it's climbed up from this, there is no way for me,
I need to die sort of thing.
I'm not there.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: But in this awakening, I become very provocative.
Because all of a sudden I don't need to conform.
Right?
This whole story of you have to go to school, otherwise you will end up a tramp.
That doesn't work for me anymore because I know what I'm meant to be doing.
So I know that there is a way.
So all this obey or you shall be doomed has no effect.
And because I'm stronger I dare to sort of test my surroundings.
So, so now I, I turn into a much more sort of feisty type of person.
And I begin to study Dao de Ching.
For some reason, I find this tiny little Dao de Ching book written translated
by a guy called Steven Mitchell.
And I still read this book because I love that particular translation.
And I begin to question every single thing around me and I go to this
school because you change school at that age in Sweden, and I want to
focus on biology because I think that maybe that would make sense to me.
I, I realized that I will need typewriting biology and English.
So I, this is before you have computer science in school.
And, and this is true.
These are the only things that I ever needed and eventually not,
maybe not biology in the same as much as English and typewriting.
And I find like-minded friends that are questioning society in a very.
Non-aggressive way.
It's like we will protest against the traffic in the inner city of Gothenburg
by dancing samba in the middle of the street so no one can pass us.
It's a lot of playfulness.
It's not that sort of hatred driven protesting.
And amongst those friends is a person that I really owe gratitude to.
And that is a guy who is a musician in the Samba band.
It's lots of samba dancing.
And he, the
Rupert Isaacson: samba is so Swedish.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, yeah.
No, but you know, it was the military coup in what was his name?
Pinochet.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah,
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.
Those refugees.
The kids born in that flight from Chile.
From Chile would be about my age.
These, that's the samba squad.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And anyway, and this is the first time since my
father that I meet an absolute person.
This, this samba musician is completely in a world of his own.
We never really spoke because you couldn't he always had these headphones
on and he was always playing samba on everything on the table, on his body,
on his teeth, on his bag on the lessons outside of the lessons in the canteen.
And what I noticed with him doing that was that obviously
he was 100% true to himself.
Mm-hmm.
He wasn't playing samba.
He was samba.
Got it.
And because he was it, no one could have an opinion about that.
He just was who he is.
Mm.
So no one ever asked him to stop.
No one told him that your life is doomed and you should all be a sort of in poverty
and hell unless you start listening to your teachers, they let him be.
So, I, I noticed his way through the world in school and that Okay, if
he can do that, I can do that too.
I'm not meant to play samba.
I'm meant to do something completely different.
I'm meant to do empathic into being with other species and, and if I'm 100% true
to that, without making any excuses, the world is not going to stop me.
This was so incredibly helpful that I actually found this guy's phone number
a couple of years ago and, and, and wrote him a text to say thank you.
And he said, oh I didn't realize that that would affect anyone else,
but, but he had come to exactly the same conclusions for himself.
He just,
Rupert Isaacson: what, what have he got on to do by the way, out of interest?
Emelie Cajsdotter: He, he is still a samba musician.
He is in some really good orchestras playing with some really good sort
of well-known Swedish musician.
He can make a living out of it.
Mm-hmm.
And he has a samba school in Rio.
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
Okay.
So, you are now heading for college?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
This is sort of college, I suppose.
College.
Okay.
When, when you are sort of 16 to 19, kind of what's
Rupert Isaacson: interesting to me so far is that with the possible exception
of the pony, and I presume you are trail riding the pony in the forest.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: So far the forest has not entered the story.
And I remember when I went to Sweden at 12 years old, I was taken that I,
I was in a choir and the choir went on tour in Sweden for, for some reason.
And so I found myself there and I remember thinking, oh my God, this
is such a beautiful place and.
The forest, of course, being everywhere.
And so I remember going to Gothenburg.
Mm-hmm.
Because I think that's actually, that was our entry point now that
I think, yeah, we, we went on the boat and we entered at Gothenburg.
I don't care.
Gothenburg was a city, but I was coming from London.
It's like it's not a
Emelie Cajsdotter: city.
Yeah.
No, it's not a city, it's a town.
Rupert Isaacson: And so you know, the forest is like there, you know,
every, like, it's not like London where you'd have to, you know, cycle
for half a day to get to the city.
It's like, no, the forest, it's there.
So even if you're in a high rise in Gothenburg, the forest is accessible.
It's close.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
No, the forest is actually in it all along because me.
Okay.
So, so just dial us
Rupert Isaacson: back to the forest.
When does the forest enter your life and how
Emelie Cajsdotter: it starts with these big beach trees?
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: It definitely does.
And a constant feeling of the forest being home.
Right.
And I would say that that's still the nature type that, well, I love
all nature types not right, but it's, it's ecosystem, but is really close
Rupert Isaacson: that you grew up in.
Absolutely, yes.
And,
Emelie Cajsdotter: and I remember also seeing these big floaty
almost whiteish, big round things floating between the trees.
I, I, I still am to this day, don't know what that is, but
like some sort of forest spirits.
They wouldn't be there all the time, but the times that I had seen
them I, I just love that feeling.
So did they ever
Rupert Isaacson: talk to you?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, those never did.
It was just a presence.
Okay.
But I also began to see what we in Sweden called little people like small
forest spirits or nature spirits.
Rupert Isaacson: At what, at, at what age do you see them and how does
Emelie Cajsdotter: around this 14, 15, 16.
Around the time when, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: As you may know, if you've been following my work,
we are also horsey folk here.
And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of
the old classical dressage masters.
This is something which is often very confusing for people.
We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear.
If you'd like to learn to train your horse in the manner of the old masters and
really have fun and joy for you and your equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.
com Sign up as a premium member.
and begin to take the Helios Harmony course, which will take you from zero
to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing on the spot in hand on the ground.
And then from there, you can develop out to anywhere you want to.
Heliosharmony.
com to unlock the secrets of the old masters.
Okay.
That's interesting to me.
Not younger because, you know, I think, I think no, but I was never really young
kids report seeing things like this.
But then it, they stopped seeing them usually at adolescents?
No,
Emelie Cajsdotter: I was in the city.
I saw mainly dead relatives and,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
So, so you, when you were a kid, dead relatives, and then as
soon as you, you managed to get out to the country with this?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: You began little people.
Yes.
Did the little people talk to you?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: What do they say?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, it's a lot about healing generosity,
how to help nature, I would say.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Like an embodiment of helping nature the way I Can you, can you
Rupert Isaacson: remember, do certain conversations or interactions stand out?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.
Not really, but I, I remember like learning about different plants and.
These sort of things.
So when I realized that I no longer need to be obedient and I was almost
never in school anymore except a few days a week to get inspired by samba
friends, then I would be out in the forest looking for forest spirits.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Would you always find them?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.
And that wasn't really the point.
I think the point was that it was such an, it just felt like a quest that made sense
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
When, when you found them
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: How did you find, like, what was, I think they
Emelie Cajsdotter: find you,
Rupert Isaacson: how they'd appear.
Emelie Cajsdotter: They, they would just appear as, as sort of almost
like being one with a stone or a tree or, and they would sort of come out
Rupert Isaacson: and say, Hey, how's it going?
Or what would, what would the initial,
Emelie Cajsdotter: I would feel respect for them because they're sort of, they're
tough and a bit sharp and, and I wouldn't sort of, if I would, would see them, it
would feel like a huge sort of thing.
And I would never dare to sort of ask anything more than having got the chance.
Would you
Rupert Isaacson: greet them?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, I, I would greet them.
Rupert Isaacson: And how would you greet them?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I would greet them, like I would greet
anything like, I, I see you.
Rupert Isaacson: And to which they would say
Emelie Cajsdotter: sort of noticing me wordless
Rupert Isaacson: and then saying, alright, I.
Emily, we've got something to teach you.
I'm gonna teach you about this plant now.
Yes.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
It could be like that.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
Any physical interaction?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No,
not except sort of things disappearing and moving and those sort of things,
Rupert Isaacson: but not physically touching you.
No.
And then talk to us about the variety.
What do they look like?
Emelie Cajsdotter: They look like an embodiment of, like a
personalized embodiment of nature.
They don't really look like humans, but
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So you're not seeing a little, because we say little people,
one thinks of a small person.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
But I think we make them more human.
Rupert Isaacson: Would you see them as human through your mind's eye?
Is that how you
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, but they would have similar shapes to humans, meaning
that they could have arms and legs.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Arms, legs, eyes, mouth.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And always small.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Those types.
Always small.
Rupert Isaacson: What other types were they?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, but other types, like more, more fairy types that
would be more transparent and bigger.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about those.
How do you, how they appear, how do you interact with them?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I am.
So it feels like always feels disrespectful to talk
about them, but I will try
Rupert Isaacson: indeed.
But I think people need, people need these conversations.
I
Emelie Cajsdotter: know.
Rupert Isaacson: If we don't talk about it, then it's also bullshit, right.
Because either we're relegating it to fantasy.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
No, I, we're,
Rupert Isaacson: we're, we're, we're bringing this kind of superstitious Awe.
Yeah.
Which is often around the sort of fairy thing that, that you're not
allowed to refer to them directly.
The good people.
The, yeah.
This people that you know, and therefore they're sort of slightly threatening as
like, what about just talking about them?
Because we need, by
Emelie Cajsdotter: the little ones the, the small people fee are sharp.
I think they need to be sharp with humans because we tend to
not really stick to our word
Rupert Isaacson: well because we, we, we, yeah.
We, we bulldoze their environments and create,
Emelie Cajsdotter: if they decide to go into really helping you, yes.
They, they probably want to make sure that you're actually going to turn up.
Okay.
We, we have a class here where the entire content comes from them in
relating to plant medicine from a completely different perspective.
Actually not using the plants like we think about using plants and
they teach much more about in the relationship with the plant already
there is a healing sort of Right.
And, and there it's very important to actually show up,
to come on time to come on all.
The different classes and not just sort of seeing it as a,
Rupert Isaacson: did you, did you meet the same entities as
individuals often, or was it always a different individual every time?
Emelie Cajsdotter: In this particular class, it's the same one.
Rupert Isaacson: No, but I'm talking about back you in, in the forest.
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, some would be repetitively similar,
the same and some would be new.
Rupert Isaacson: So there would be definitely relationships that Yes.
Carried over.
You knew the same entity.
Yes.
Over time.
What was the longest running relationship that you had there?
Emelie Cajsdotter: That would've been for a number of years?
When for as long as this pony was in the same area, though, I would
be around the, in the same forests.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm talking about a particular individual being
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Yes.
Can
Rupert Isaacson: can, can you talk to us about a particular individual being that
you related to over a number of years and what the course of that relationship was?
Because I think, let's say in, in like a fairy story, the idea is you, you might
have an encounter in the forest with a supernatural being and it's usually
either a one-off or with some sort of test involved or some sort of relationship
with some sort of wish granting or showing you a quest and then gone.
But very rarely do you read about Cinderella just going open around
for a cup of tea, you know, with.
The nature spirits, you know, for the next 30 years.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
'cause the important test isn't such a interesting story maybe.
Rupert Isaacson: Right, exactly.
So, but so, so I'm more interested, yeah.
I'm interested in the relationship.
I want to know,
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm thinking about one that I would consider male in, in
the energy that would be helpful in the, in the time where when Ude was
directly, when her healing started after the vet and stuff that would
sort of show himself on and off.
And the subject, and I'm, I'm really trying to think about it now, was a
lot about healing and helping animals.
And the same here, I'm thinking about one, there's also male type in a specific
place where there are refer trees.
And I don't know the number of years on that one because
I've been here for long now.
And then the woman type one that is designing the course for us,
that's for a year and a half.
That's a shorter one.
Rupert Isaacson: The male ones.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Were coming out of stones, trees,
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.
Rupert Isaacson: But which,
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mainly trees.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Do you remember which tree?
Which type of tree?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Oh.
And then there was the one who helped with clar, like making it more open
in this in the empathic communication.
That was a juniper tree.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Male or female
Emelie Cajsdotter: trees?
Male fur trees juniper trees.
Pine trees.
Rupert Isaacson: And they could be male or female?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Spirits of water?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about them.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Like really playful and
Like a sense of sort of water fairies.
Rupert Isaacson: Male, female?
Both.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Both.
A actually less of a gender
Rupert Isaacson: and
Emelie Cajsdotter: me.
Rupert Isaacson: What would the lesson normally be or the teaching
or the interaction be with the water.
I,
Emelie Cajsdotter: I think there, there are all these lessons that are with
and through water as memory carrier.
Rupert Isaacson: Memory carrier, ah, liquid intelligence, right?
Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: But that wouldn't be them, that would be the water.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: I think in a way
they, they're so close to us.
It's just like
another dimension and a slightly different intention maybe.
They seem to be somehow less dense than us, and their time
seems slightly different.
But I think not always when you meet them, you are sort of targeted as their focus.
It's like sometimes they would come out and, and, and teach and share something
because I would be worried about a sick animal and I wouldn't know what to do
and they would maybe know what to do.
But it could also just be that we, we we're both living here, they're
living in the same stream that I'm also living close to, and sometimes for
some reason, we can interact and meet.
But it doesn't necessarily involve tests or quests or teachings.
It, it can do.
But I think more than that, it's like, it's just, they're just there because they
live their lives there just like we do.
For some reason we, we've cut them out of our way of experiencing reality.
But, but maybe that's because we relate to just one segment of time.
Of time, space.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I'm, I'm So when you were, when you were roaming around the forest as a young woman
did you encounter other people who also saw and interacted with these entities?
Or were you the only one?
No,
Emelie Cajsdotter: I, I would be the only one until I met
Maori people in New Zealand.
I would be quite alone on that
Rupert Isaacson: because, 'cause quite a lot of people in Scandinavia
are still quite connected to the land and the forest.
Why do you think you, you were isolated in that, that there weren't like
a small community of people, like, oh, you see them too, type thing.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Maybe more people saw them, but we didn't
speak about it for some reason, or because my life was so much
in the city.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Who was the first person you confided to that you were having these interactions?
Your grandmother?
Emelie Cajsdotter: My grandmother, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And she went, oh yeah, that's totally normal.
Yeah, I see.
I see him all the time.
Okay.
So you had some sort of moral support, some sort of validation with that?
Yes.
Did you tell your mother?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.
Okay.
We, we almost didn't speak I ran away from home at the age of 1516.
We, we didn't communicate
Rupert Isaacson: right.
Got it.
I'm so, but the grandmother there.
And then what about friends?
Did you tell them.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, probably did.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And what did they say?
Emelie Cajsdotter: They didn't make a thing out of it,
Rupert Isaacson: did some say?
Please can introduce, I mean, I would've been like, please introduce me.
I'm, I'm, I would like,
Emelie Cajsdotter: no, I can't, I can't remember anyone saying that.
Rupert Isaacson: I can't imagine saying anything else.
You know?
I mean, it's like
Emelie Cajsdotter: there is a, a great interest in them now actually.
Yeah.
But it hasn't really been until now,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, as I remember being acutely aware of
all sorts of energies around me or through childhood and adolescent
and occasionally glimpsing things.
No, no sorts of interactions as you've described, but glimpses and then, and
feelings and emotions and feeling that I should now go over there and, you
know, indeed there would be something over there, but not an entity if
you like, an experience perhaps.
But then it wasn't until I became obviously drawn in with the sun and the
bushman and all of that, that I got shown certain things and but usually, but always
through the intercession of a shaman.
I'm just trying to think if I've, I've had interactions with what I
would imagine would be mischievous ghosts and sprites and things.
Mm-hmm.
A bit, but not, particularly in Ireland, but not
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm not surprised about that
Rupert Isaacson: and a couple of us, but you know what I mean?
So we all have, but it, it would've been intriguing to me to say, if, you
know, and I'm, I'm lucky enough, I know I am gonna go into the forest with you
in, in, in a, in a matter of weeks.
So, fantastic.
And I would like to be introduced in whatever way, please.
Mm-hmm.
Because my feeling is that it's time to have these conversations openly.
I think we're, we're finally at a juncture in our society where a conversation
like this is not either dismissed as fancy or delusion or psychosis.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, true.
However,
Rupert Isaacson: psychosis is, I think, a ne a necessary and natural
part of looking at reality in order to see beyond linear dimension.
The difficulty is how you, that we, but now, you know, and now with people
using psychoactive plants in our society and that sort of thing, suddenly,
suddenly people are allowed to have these conversations because they're now
seeing the same sorts of entities that, oh, I did Ira and I saw that one too.
And but, and this is now suddenly post covid kind of entered the
mainstream, but it's very recent.
But I do feel that the, that's why I'm asking these.
Very direct sort of question.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, no, I, I like the direct question and I don't
Rupert Isaacson: want to waste my time with it.
Do you think it's real?
I want to know what they said, what they look like, what the intention is.
Here's a question.
Do you think more of them are showing themselves now?
Do you think that there's a, obviously we've been destroying nature for
a long time, but not quite on the level that we are currently.
Yeah.
Do they have an agenda?
Do they have a, would they be fine if we cut the forest down anyway?
No.
Emelie Cajsdotter: They wouldn't be fine if we cut it down anyway.
But it wouldn't make them give up.
Rupert Isaacson: Would they, would they cease to exist?
If, if, if you're a furry spirit and you cut the fur tree
down, do you cease to exist?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.
You don't cease to exist.
You might not live, have that place as a base, but your intention to help
restoring nature would be enhanced almost.
Rupert Isaacson: Why do they care about nature?
I mean, you could say, okay, well, they live in it.
They are it, but I think why do they give a shit?
I mean, if, if we destroy ourselves in nature, presumably
nature will come back and
Emelie Cajsdotter: if they can't do anything else,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's, it's like,
Rupert Isaacson: like a mother's love.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
It seems like the source of this life, if you.
Of any story from any animal plant forest spirit ancestor it
seems like whoever created this did do it with a loving intent.
That was gonna be
Rupert Isaacson: my question.
It are they manifestations of love?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
In a way, I think it seems like the intent is love.
And if we are connected to that source, that intent is living through us,
regardless if I am a human or a dog or a fairy or the furry or whatever.
And then it seems like whatever goes against these care for the living
space, it's like, it seems like we, in a linear society, we, we care so much
about development that we're going to develop spiritually, and then we
will get more enlightened, and then eventually we will never be reborn again.
And whatsoever you never hear those stories from, from anyone else.
What you hear is that the miracle.
That life is even possible is the meaning.
So you don't need anything beyond life.
So to help create and uphold the living space is like the most
sacred thing you could ever do.
And to not do that just doesn't make sense at all.
So if, if, if a human somehow goes against maybe with an immature version
of a creative potential we start to destroy things around us instead
then they don't hate us for that.
But obviously we are in great need of help because if we are preventing living
space from expanding and, and for life to be lived in its own fullness, then.
Then maybe we are the ones to reach out to.
And, and, and with our hierarchical way of seeing ourselves as the sort of
crown of creation we might think that every, everyone else who is alive has no
consciousness, no awareness of anything, and all in the end, aspire to be human.
And, and I like to differ.
They don't judge us, but they also don't praise us.
But we obviously we are a bit lost and we need all the help
we can get in being included.
Again,
Rupert Isaacson: are these entities ageless or do they like us?
Do they live and die?
Emelie Cajsdotter: They, they seem to live and die but maybe in a
slightly different time span of things
Rupert Isaacson: give us like
Emelie Cajsdotter: maybe aging slower.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But is there a point at which, say for example, they
Emelie Cajsdotter: can, they look like the same age forever, but I
can still see that some of them look old and some of them look young
Rupert Isaacson: and do some, do they say, do some of them say, I'm about to pass?
Or do others say, I've only just got here?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Hmm.
I never asked.
Rupert Isaacson: Would you?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Could I know,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, I, in this podcast, I want to get through your bio
and we haven't even gotten to, I know that, you know, you spent time in the
Middle East and, and, and then come back.
Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Sequence,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold the fairies for now.
I'm gonna request that we do a separate podcast, just about that.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
' Rupert Isaacson: cause that's its own universe and there's a lot of
things I would like to add and share.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Particularly in terms of time, things in the
Kalahari and so on and so on.
Curious
Emelie Cajsdotter: about that.
Rupert Isaacson: I think if we do that, that's gonna be the entire
podcast and it should actually.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm intrigued.
I want to do one on ferry so bad.
Please.
Can we?
Yes, we can.
Okay.
Alright.
So, okay.
You're talking to, oh, one last thing, it Scandinavia.
And I've, I've gotta ask trolls.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Not, not the sort of fairytale trolls I would never have seen,
Rupert Isaacson: but would you say that there's a troll thing
that's different to the other entities that you're talking about?
Yes.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
But not, not, it wouldn't be bad.
It would just be sort of big and more,
Rupert Isaacson: more mountainy.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Not ancestral memories passed down by farming people
of hunter gatherers who were there beforehand and perhaps wiped out or
consigned to the forest, who then become the troll in the imagination.
The troll actually is the nature spirit.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I would believe both are possible.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So perhaps some amalgamation of the two?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
I, I think a lot of things are, especially when they're being told about
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Emelie Cajsdotter: because, because with the empathic into being,
you experience something and then you pass it on and in the past
Rupert Isaacson: and imagine things.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
And, and in the passing on it will go through my entire conditioning.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Got it.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Whether I like it or not, and I can try to be as true as I
can to the source, but I also have to respect that I am also my genetic self.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And I, I guess if everything is light and everything is
love, and everything is energy, then we're going to see that through the prism of
the lens that we are, which means that we'll interpret it to look like this
or to look like that, or to say this,
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes, they have.
And how they keep, keep telling their stories.
Rupert Isaacson: I am so tempted to just go down this rabbit hole right now.
Troll.
I'm, I'm sorry.
It's, I really wanna talk about you, but now it's like, well,
I wanna talk about trolls.
What are their stories quickly before we go back to you.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, but I think as humans, we always
think that we hold the sort of centerpiece of, of, of the stories.
And, and well, we are
Rupert Isaacson: the storytelling ape, right?
That is us.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
And, and we are the sort of we interpret everything else, but we hold the sort
of facts, and we don't, I mean, they would have their ancestry lines and
stories on how they got to earth and, and the role that they're playing
and what they tell their children.
Right.
Which would affect,
Rupert Isaacson: we've got to revisit this 'cause everything you say.
Then I say, well, what are they telling their children?
What are their stories?
How did they get to earth?
What do they think about aliens?
You know?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, I think it's like we, we live a, a modern human being.
We have a very very limited experience of time.
I mean, we stick to one version and I mean, it's difficult enough,
so you can easily see how that would feel a full lifetime.
But I still think we're,
I Yeah.
No,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I agree.
I'm, I, I, I'm loving, privileged to live with people a bit who
are absolutely of the place.
Who do not see themselves as the top of a hierarchy in nature.
Who that I do know that that's the authentic human way to be.
And that's honestly the only way to be happy.
Because to be inauthentic is to be unhappy.
Right.
And we know that in our culture, we are desperately unhappy.
Emelie Cajsdotter: We are.
Rupert Isaacson: Is, is why aren't these, why aren't these entities
showing themselves to everybody?
Wouldn't it just be easier if they just showed up in the living
room constantly and like, boy lads out there, plant a tree.
Come on.
Emelie Cajsdotter: But maybe they do.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: I mean, maybe it's not they, do they,
Rupert Isaacson: like, do they walk around your living room or do you have
to go into the forest to see them?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I wouldn't say that they tend to be in the living room.
They tend to be in nature.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Quite close.
But your, your living room is not far from nature.
Right.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly.
Exactly.
So they, they would be around,
Rupert Isaacson: is there anyone around you right now?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm, no.
Not in here.
No.
Rupert Isaacson: If there was a,
Emelie Cajsdotter: in the, around the barn Just before
Rupert Isaacson: there were,
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What did they say?
Emelie Cajsdotter: They, they were helping out with chickens.
Rupert Isaacson: What were they doing with the chickens?
Emelie Cajsdotter: It seems like a lot of things that we think is happening
by themselves, like leaves moving
cleaning, helping water it's, it's like all these things that
we think is just sort of randomly happening, like in a machinery.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: They seem to be involved in
Rupert Isaacson: What were they doing with the chickens specifically?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, the chicken barn is, is just about to be cleansed.
So they were just around some chickens that are a little
bit weaker and sort of moving
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Things around accordingly.
Rupert Isaacson: Man, I gotta, we, we gotta revisit this.
We've gotta revisit this a lot.
Okay.
Listeners, we are going to, I'm not gonna let Emily get away with not talking to
us in depth about fairies and trolls and these 'cause I mean, the thought of having
to live without that is just too painful.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, I know.
But let's,
Rupert Isaacson: let's just move on now in your life so you're dancing
samba, you're talking to fairies, you're giving acupuncture to your
horse, you're becoming a biologist
Emelie Cajsdotter: horse.
Why not?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What happens next?
Now, you're a young woman.
You head out into the world and
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: The pony retires, by the way, dies.
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, no.
The pony is there.
The pony lives until the age of 36.
Perfect.
And may And, and, and, and is the one who is founding this
whole sanctuary before she dies.
Okay, got it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So she,
Emelie Cajsdotter: so her, her dream is fulfilled when she dies.
She is very content.
Rupert Isaacson: Super.
Okay, so, so take us now.
You're at university, what happens next?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Not university.
It's like a college thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
Emelie Cajsdotter: I realize that university will say
Rupert Isaacson: potato.
Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Because the subjects I'm into is not there, so.
Okay.
And I'm not really very good at sitting still indoors.
It totally actually does not work at all.
What happens is that or the next thing I guess that happens is
that my grandmother kills herself.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: When, no, at some point since I was very young I
always felt that I I couldn't really recognize myself in the mirror.
It was a bit confusing.
I should be, have red or black hair and it didn't make sense that I was
blonde at that time and I knew that I had some sort of connection to Ireland,
so I knew that I had to go there.
Rupert Isaacson: How did you know that?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I just knew
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: That it's there.
There is something about Ireland that I have to visit.
So my grandmother would naturally say, oh, maybe you have a past
life there, so could be normal.
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: also from my point of view, actually, I mean, we know that
all of us living between the North Sea, the Baltic, the Irish Sea, the
Northwest Atlantic, we're basically all the same tribal folk who've been,
Emelie Cajsdotter: we are
Rupert Isaacson: going back and forth and back and forth.
So you think, oh, I'm from Sweden.
That's so far from Ireland.
It's like, no, it's not, you know?
Yeah.
It, it, people were traveling back and forth and we're all
Viking Kelts sort of thing.
So pre presume.
Okay, so let's say it's in your ancestry.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Somehow it's in my ancestry and I go to Ireland and, and hitchhike
around Ireland at, I think I'm 16.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Or
Emelie Cajsdotter: 17 maximum 16 maybe.
And that is a very good experience because I begin to realize that
I can trust my own feet sort of.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And maybe that is what my grandmother is picking up on because
she has made a promise to my father to look after me, and maybe she feels that
she doesn't have to look after me anymore.
I dunno.
But she tries to kill herself after an argument with my grandfather.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: That I think deeply puts her in a situation of
questioning her whole life and.
Again, if we look at the women in that side of the family, they are upper middle
class, highly intelligent, and have no area to express themselves at all.
They are housewives and they hate it.
Her mother was the first woman in Sweden who studied to become a doctor then.
Not a nurse, but a doctor.
Then she married someone and well, she was in the class where the first
two in women, so there would be a few.
And then her husband, she got married, her husband forbade her to continue the
studies, and she was then left with this husband, no education, lots of kids.
And eventually she divorced in a time when no one did that.
Rupert Isaacson: This is your great-grandmother?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
So her dream is unfulfilled in a way, and that is passed on to my
grandmother's dream who is unfulfilled.
And she ends up in the same situation.
The only story that is possible to embody is the housewife outline.
And although she's doing this healing and all these other things, she,
she has other dreams and she has this growing bitterness, I would
say, that I could feel from her.
And she puts her entire effort into her family.
And
Rupert Isaacson: what was her husband?
What did your grandfather do?
Emelie Cajsdotter: He was an introvert professionally.
Yeah.
He was some sort of, yeah.
He was a professional introvert.
He was a, in, in a, he was some sort of lawyer.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: All in the head.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And he was a really good at playing the violin.
Now, in, in an argument my grandmother forbade him to play violin, so
he bought a cottage up in the mountains outside of Gothenburg
where he would go and play violin.
And then why would
Rupert Isaacson: she forbid him from playing violin?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, there are so many questions.
I guess when you begin to not live your story, you
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Want other people.
Do I prevent
Emelie Cajsdotter: others from doing the same?
It's my, maybe my only
Rupert Isaacson: Did he prevent her from having a career or anything,
or was it just that she felt,
Emelie Cajsdotter: I don't know.
I, I don't know if he personally did or if it was just a patriarchal
society and he became a face of that.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Emelie Cajsdotter: I would've been too young to 'cause by,
Rupert Isaacson: by the sort of 1960s when your grandmother would've been in, say,
her sixties or fifties, surely that was breaking apart post World War ii, and,
Emelie Cajsdotter: but I think it's all these other things, our self image
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Our
Emelie Cajsdotter: ancestral stories that continue until they don't.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: All of these things.
An argument.
It turned out that my grandfather, she put all her efforts into the family.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Trying to create a meaning.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Somehow is my conclusion.
And it turned out that he had a love affair years back.
Mm-hmm.
And somehow that, although that wasn't such a big thing, it wouldn't be
such a big thing by my standards, but somehow it cracked a hole and made
everything just lose its value for her.
Rupert Isaacson: Even at that age.
Even at that, even
Emelie Cajsdotter: at that age, she was 81 when she killed herself.
So she did a full attempt and my grandfather found her.
He, she made him promise not to save her, but he couldn't keep that promise.
So she survived and she was naturally she was in the hospital being
guarded by a nurse because they considered her so suicidal that
they didn't dare to leave her alone.
And all she wanted was to die.
And me, my mother and grandfather was called to her bed and the
doctor said, you have to make a decision as her closest kin.
We can keep guarding her for as long as she lives.
But that would mean that we force her to live.
If we let her out from here, most likely she will try again,
and maybe she will succeed.
And the choice has to be yours.
And without even looking at each other, and I mean, we are not people
that would communicate the rest of the time, so it's not that we get on.
But we all simultaneously, I'm 17 at the time say that we have to let her loose.
We can't force her to live.
It's undignified, it's impossible.
So it wasn't that many months after that she succeeded in killing herself.
Rupert Isaacson: And your grandfather then lived alone for the rest of his life.
My
Emelie Cajsdotter: grandfather, after this happened, also being blamed for
the whole thing in a letter became blind only days after she died and was
taken to an old people's home where he sadly ended up starving to death
because he couldn't live with himself after this event and also was not in a
position of being able to kill himself.
So he died very slowly in a state of deep suffering.
Rupert Isaacson: He just stopped eating.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Course.
So poor people.
Gosh.
Yes.
Emelie Cajsdotter: It
Rupert Isaacson: just seems so unnecessary to
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's unnecessary.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Around when you could just be in the forest talking to the little people.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, I know, I know.
It is unnecessary.
This, this whole.
Belief in suffering.
Pain I believe we all have in our lives.
And, and it, it's also even helpful as much as we don't feel it at the time.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: But suffering, I would say something totally different.
Yeah.
In suffering, we have choices.
We might not, so it seems to be a
Rupert Isaacson: blindness, a blindness to the, the, the, as you
said, the joy of creation of if, if, if those nature entities are there,
trying to draw our attention back to it constantly and saying, you know,
Emelie Cajsdotter: there is another way.
It's like this constantly saying, there is another way.
It will make you a little happier.
Rupert Isaacson: Everything doesn't better personal.
Yeah.
It's like, why, why is it wanting to be about me?
Yeah.
But it's hard if Yeah.
Little people are not talking to you.
But although it seems that they sort of were to your grandmother, so,
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.
And did you see this Exactly, this reasoning is what came to me after her
death e except of course, this huge grief.
But how could she have all that?
And it still wasn't possible to live in herself.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Does that mean that everything she said was wrong?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Or is life just a lot more complex?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's 'cause it would seem, it would seem, if you had your eyes open to
those dimensions of reality, that it would be hard to remain bitter because.
Just too interesting.
You know?
I mean, it's like, yeah, you might, but I, it's also though,
Emelie Cajsdotter: it's also a constant, you know, all of these spiritual
traditions where you have constant, like in, in, in Islam and in the
surface they have thicker and you have meditation and this remembrance, you
know, we have to constantly work on remembering the source because, so
Rupert Isaacson: shamanic rituals,
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.
Without the meaning.
We don't, we are overwhelmed, again, with the reality around us.
So I think it's not really enough to feel it once and then it's there.
It, it's helpful to feel it once, because then it's easier
to find it the second time.
And if we find it the second time, it's easier the third time.
But we still have to live with this person that we are with a genetic story
that is up to me to transform as I play my part in my little chunk of time.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And, and she has given me a huge freedom.
So, although her story is tragic in very many ways, she also, maybe
she couldn't open those doors for her, but she could open them for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
So she does that.
You go and then you go to Ireland shortly after.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
I go to Ireland and I start to work and live in Ireland on and off.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And what do you do?
What do you do in Ireland?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I start by by riding young Kura pos in the middle of Kura.
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
In the, on the Baren?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
On in the, like, yeah.
In, in county Galway Kamara in a place called Cael.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, I know, I know what that is.
Yeah.
Okay.
And that's to know
Emelie Cajsdotter: an old Celtic woman in county Mayo, near a small town called
Anne who she doesn't live anymore.
Her name was Bina McLaughlin, and she was a fierce thing.
Celtic speaking herb, woman shepherd original human being.
And we became friends.
A very stormy type of friendship because I think that would be the only way you could
have a friendship with such a character.
But I became her sort of friend and student on and off for
years as well of on and off.
Yeah.
I would travel on and off too, the student of of the Celtic traditions
of herbs and nature, spirits and any other, everything she did.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And it was mind blowing to meet.
I, I'm, I mean, I'm 17 and.
I know that I'm meant to be doing this, and I've seen that it's
possible to follow your path, but to see someone elderly, she was in her
seventies when I got to know her.
Really doing that and sort of standing up for it and being completely outcast,
but still, yeah, it's possible.
I mean, she, yes, she really showed me it's possible.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And you would sort of come and go from her homestead meanwhile,
her job breaking training horses.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, and, and I also, I mean, I'm still supposed
to be in school in Sweden and I have the pony to look after.
Okay.
So I'm sort of circling around these things.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And where do you go from that point?
Emelie Cajsdotter: From that point, there is one experience that is so
important that it has to be thrown in.
At this point, you know, I'm protesting against everything in, in a sort of.
Not angry way, but I'm dancing constantly.
I'm always at some sort of party drinking tons of alcohol.
Ne never taking any drugs because I figured out two things.
If I find a drug that soothes my inner pain, I will be on it forever.
So someone like me, it cannot try heroin.
It's, no, it would, yeah.
' Rupert Isaacson: cause the problem is it works.
Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, it works.
And I realized that it would work brilliantly on me, so I can't take it.
Yeah.
And I would not be strong enough to come off it.
Yeah.
And number two, if I would take any other drug, it would be like disrespecting all
these experiences that I'm already having.
Mm-hmm.
So no drugs but a lot of dancing and drinking and not much sleep.
Very, very intense living because I explore all these areas at the same time.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And then for some reason, and I'm also, I have
this istic story in my family, you know, of all these women trying
to find a way and unsuccessfully living very unfulfilled lives.
So this is also a topic that is constantly with me.
So one day I decide to start to live in celibacy
and it's not for moral reasons and it's not with a timeframe.
It's not a sort of vow but I want to try it.
So I decide, I think I'm 18, maybe I decide to live in celibacy and why this is
so important because I think it is about identity and what prevents us from finding
our dreams could be all sorts of things.
And so I'm out in a bar, drinking and dancing as usual, and I'm
being chatted up by some guy, and I tell him halfway through the
conversation that, oops, wait a minute.
He probably thinks that we are gonna go back after this to his place.
I need to tell him that I'm in celibacy not to disappoint him.
So I say, by the way, nothing more is gonna happen tonight
because I'm in celibacy.
And the change in his face all of it, it was like watching the
sort of arm of a clock just shift.
And I became a person.
We, we became friends for years after that until I left Gothenburg, actually.
And I remember walking outta that pub in the middle of the night, in the
middle of Gothenburg City Center, seeing all these advertisements, you know,
all these newspapers and films and half naked women all looking the same.
And realized with full insight that this is not my story.
This, this total freedom of not belonging to having to fulfill that story
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Is one of maybe the most important things
that ever happened to me.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Because somehow I, I, I got out of not only my, my
family's story of the women's roles, but that whole cultural expectation
and it never really came back.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you stay in celibacy for the rest of your life?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, I stayed in celibacy for maybe six months.
I can't even, it wasn't even a big thing to break it, it was
just that I eventually met someone that I wanted to break it with.
Right, right.
But that wasn't the point.
Yeah.
I see what the point was that I realized that it's my choice.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And, and it totally changes the way people perceive me.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
It's,
it's interesting that, as you say, to go out and see all the advertising and
the, you know, now it would be even more
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Intense with social media.
You are bombarded by them, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, you are, you are.
Okay.
So
Emelie Cajsdotter: I think that makes sense in all the other stories.
Rupert Isaacson: So you are liberated.
You, you have this kind of, wow, I don't have to be.
Shackled to those expectations?
No.
It's,
Emelie Cajsdotter: it's got nothing to do with me.
Rupert Isaacson: What happens next?
Emelie Cajsdotter: What happens next?
Is that school is finishing.
And I have honestly not spent much time in it, but I'm so happy when
it's over because I know that I'm never going to be in a building again.
And, and my feeling throughout school, the later years is that I
understand what the teachers want.
I understand what I need to give them to get good grades, but if I
do that for reasons I can't explain.
If I do that, I'm going to lose something else.
And what I will lose is going to prevent me from doing what I'm meant to be doing.
So I'm resisting every possible attempt to
Rupert Isaacson: colonize you?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Yes.
And, and to me, it's a fight for my life.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's, I begin to understand the ponies
fight in the writing scheme.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's exactly what I was thinking of.
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's a, it's a real fight.
You, it's, and it's constant, it's daily to not be drawn into a reality that
I might never be able to get out of.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So you leave school?
Emelie Cajsdotter: I leave school.
And as we leave school, which in Sweden, you finish school around in June.
Earlier that spring, two friends of mine are going to Greenland.
They're going to Greenland fishing and hunting and camping and just being
there for like two, three months.
And for some reason they ask me if I want to come with them, which
of course I, I always found it very hard to resist an adventure.
Rupert Isaacson: Irresistible.
Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, it's irresistible.
So, so I go to Greenland with them, and that is life altering again,
because we are hunting and fishing and camping and out in nature without
seeing traces of humans for weeks.
And finally I begin to feel good like this underlying pain that has
always followed me through life is not there when I'm in the wilderness.
So I finally realized that maybe nothing is wrong with me, maybe
I'm just in the wrong environment.
Rupert Isaacson: How long are you out in Greenland for?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, first we are there for like two months, and then
they start working in a fish factory.
So they stay for a year, but I know that I have to go back to this pony
and I know I want to study acupuncture.
And so I traveled by myself for the last month and hitchhiking with a cargo ship.
To the north of Greenland and camping then by myself, which is even better from
this wilderness experience perspective.
And also meeting amazing people like the people on the cargo ship.
There was a moment when the cargo ship left shore and I realized that
I'm the only woman, woman aboard, and there are no mobile phones.
This is before all of that.
Not sure they would work there anyway.
And Hmm.
Was this really such a smart idea?
But it was a smart idea because there were amazing people.
Rupert Isaacson: Were they Greenlanders or were they, was it mixed?
Emelie Cajsdotter: They were a mixed crew of Danish and Greenlandic in wheat.
Rupert Isaacson: When you're camping up by yourself in the north of Greenland,
what are the, what, who do, what are the nature entities that you meet?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, first I think with Greenland is the vastness.
It's so huge.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And so all of a sudden, your human perspective
is put in the right place.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: You are tiny.
You are surrounded by species that were there for so long before you.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: That it's just, that is sort of calming and, and the nature
spirits would be, except that there are no trees, but there would be similar
beings coming out of the nature there.
Definitely.
Rupert Isaacson: Anyone that sticks in your memory in particular?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No actually not because the whole thing was
Rupert Isaacson: Did they come and converse with you and show you things
or not in the same way that you'd encountered them in the forest in Sweden?
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.
It would be similar.
And it's helping sort of where to find water, how to find, you know, they
know the land, but they know everyone.
Rupert Isaacson: And they're friendly to you.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
They're sort of harsh and friendly.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Sort of like Scandinavians.
Yes.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Were the Irish fairies different?
I mean, I've gone back to the, I can't stop it.
I've got
Emelie Cajsdotter: no, I I, I would agree that there is a remarkable
sense of cheekiness on the Irish side.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, we got it.
We gotta go back to this.
Alright.
I'm gonna force myself to stick to the timeline.
Now you, you, you have this, you, you go deeply into the wilderness in Greenland.
This is amazing.
Yes.
You go, but then you go back, you wanna study acupuncture, you wanna,
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.
Then I go back and as I fly back to Gothenburg in only four hours as it takes,
the shock for the system to go back into a city is the final sort of, alright.
And now Emily, you are out of the city for everything that this place has given you.
And as correct that it was probably in the preciseness exactly how it should be.
This is the end of city life forever.
And it was,
Rupert Isaacson: where'd you go then?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Oh, I did some sort of odd jobs here and there working in
stables and barns and with cows and horses and whatever to, and then I
went to the place where I live now.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: So I was 21 when I moved to where I am now.
And decided to.
Sorry, because I failed so completely in that.
My idea was to hide from the world.
Rupert Isaacson: Well done.
Yes,
Emelie Cajsdotter: well done.
And, and really grow potatoes, be, you know, self-sufficient, live
in a sort of cyclic, harmonious relationship with nature and never
be seen again, sort of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: And some of those things went really well, but the never
seen again, part went totally bad.
Rupert Isaacson: Why did that go bad?
Why did that not happen?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Because that's not what I really wanted.
And that's not what I It's
Rupert Isaacson: also not, it's not human.
Yeah.
Really.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Oh, no, it's, I think what it was is that when you
have an awakening of any kind as a human being, especially if it is
empathically and you realize what we've done to this planet, I mean, we
can't really make any excuses for that.
I mean, we have done a lot of destructive things.
I think one way of looking at it is if I go into hiding and try to
interfere as little as possible, I will reverse some of that harm.
But then when you communicate with other species, that's not what they say.
They constantly convey that the way for humans is to step back in.
Yeah.
It's, we're not, we're not supposed to be less involved.
We're already shut off to, as much as is doable that's not the way forward, the
way forward seem to interact, step back in somehow live and, and, and share this
life with everyone else who is here.
Rupert Isaacson: How does that evolve though, that, that you go from
this sort of lone, a hippie girl open to things that other people don't seem to
opening up to offer other people courses in how to do this?
Also running this big animal rescue it's afer old jump.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
But the, the essence has always remained, I'm still in the same
sort of tiny shoebox house, and there is nothing glamorous about it.
It's not a huge profit.
So people are employed.
It's volunteers.
No, but what
Rupert Isaacson: I, what I mean is it's, it sort of, it's a big jump to go to
saying, yeah.
Reaching out to your fellow man and saying, I can show you how to do this.
I can show you how to.
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's, it's huge.
And if it was to relate this way, how, how
Rupert Isaacson: did that happen?
Emelie Cajsdotter: It was the horses that started it.
I blame them.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Emelie Cajsdotter: But what, what really happened is maybe we, we
need another podcast for that too.
Rupert Isaacson: We certainly need another podcast.
Yes.
Emelie Cajsdotter: But that was when I began to dream.
The more you spend time with other species reality, you realize that
the human linear hierarchy and domination is like a disease.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: So if that is the only way to interact with
domesticated animals, then I have to stop living with domesticated animals.
And since I love all these animals that live here, and I can't really
let them loose in the forest because that's not the society we are in, then
I'm desperate to find another way.
So I put the question out to the universe basically saying is domination
necessary in the handling of animals?
Because I really, really need to know.
And then I begin to dream.
I begin to dream about New Zealand and go to the Maori people.
I dream about Jordan and end up with the, with the Hashemite royal horses in
Jordan and other parts of the world to.
That eventually becomes a story of what, what is, when there is no hierarchy
and domination, what actually could be.
And as that happens I think, and I think that would maybe be
another podcast as well to maybe dive into some of those events.
Then you realize that you don't get such an adventure given to
you just to keep it for yourself.
It doesn't mean that you're on a mission.
It doesn't mean that I believe that I'm right and, and others are wrong.
It's, it's none of that.
It's not a missionary thing.
But it would be wrong not to make it available then.
I wouldn't have done my part.
Rupert Isaacson: So anyone who's listened this far is gonna go, what happened in
Jordan and what happened with Amari.
Alright, ready?
Emelie Cajsdotter: We'll get to that.
We'll get to that.
Well, we're
Rupert Isaacson: somewhat over the two hour mark.
My Yeah.
What I think we should do is, I think we should pause.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: But I'm gonna pause with a couple of questions and I
promise every listener provided Emily agrees, which I'm gonna force it to
'cause I'm guilt people 'cause I'm hot.
Emelie Cajsdotter: I owe you anyway for bringing me back into humanity.
Rupert Isaacson: Well.
Yeah.
Dunno if that's necessarily a good thing, but
Emelie Cajsdotter: it's a good thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
We
Emelie Cajsdotter: have to believe,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, questions come to mind.
Like you end up in Jordan with the king's horses, blah, blah.
But I mean, that's hierarchical and
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, exactly.
And that's sort of divine sense of humor,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
And you end up with a novel you never
Emelie Cajsdotter: thought you would find a warrior
Rupert Isaacson: society.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Also hierarchical.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Very.
Rupert Isaacson: So there's gonna be questions, clearly
there's some paradoxical interesting stuff there, right?
Yes.
So here's what I want to do.
I want to pause and formulate the questions, and I want to soon Bri
get to the next phase of the story.
So part two.
Yeah.
And also to listeners after that, after I've nailed her down on the, the, those
travels and then what she learned then how she's brought that back to Sweden and
what the classes are that you can attend.
For example I'm going to be following Emily onto a sacred mountain and.
Talk to the mountain with her.
Yes.
This June, 2025.
And I think we, I think we're full.
Are we not with it
Emelie Cajsdotter: seems like we're a bit over full, but you never know.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, what I'm, what I'm thinking is I
think we'll do it again, right?
Yeah.
So, those of you who'd like to follow Emily onto a sacred mountain in Western
Sweden, I dunno how you could resist.
There will be, there will be more.
Alright.
In the meantime, like how that stuff,
Emelie Cajsdotter: and I'm also, I'm double checking with everyone
who is booked onto this one to make sure that they're coming.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And, and if there are any, if there are any cancellations
or I will let everybody know.
But given that we are going to reconvene, people will just from here want to
know how they can contact you now.
So can you just please give everyone your contact info?
Like how, how do people?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Or
Rupert Isaacson: more or less,
Emelie Cajsdotter: We have two websites that has quite a lot on them.
The reason there is two is that because one is related to the sanctuary and
the nonprofit organization and one is related to how I also the, the
courses and the classes and the school, because that is taxed differently.
So because of the tax department, we have two,
Rupert Isaacson: but if people want to
Emelie Cajsdotter: interline, so one is if somebody wants
Rupert Isaacson: to do a course with you on.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Then it is the how the fuck
Rupert Isaacson: to talk to the mountain, let alone the plants and the horses.
What, yes.
What's that website?
Emelie Cajsdotter: That website is miyo the way of compassion.com.
Rupert Isaacson: One more time.
Emelie Cajsdotter: MIO miyo.
The way.
Rupert Isaacson: MIO miyo.
The
Emelie Cajsdotter: way of compassion.
Rupert Isaacson: The way of compassion.com.
MIO, the way of compassion.com.
Okay.
Yes.
Mio was, and your emails on there, right?
Horse?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Mio was a horse that really put things into practice how non-hierarchical
system can be put into practice.
So, okay.
And then the nonprofit and where you sort of learn about the
sanctuary and storytelling and these things is friends of miyo.com,
friends
Rupert Isaacson: of miyo, MIO Yeah.
Dot com All
man.
I can't wait to get there.
Mm-hmm.
What an extraordinary, what an extraordinary human you are.
Alright.
I'm going to go
Emelie Cajsdotter: see how all these things that are in one way
really negative and hard, they really also play a part, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, sure.
And I mean, it's.
To me, what, what comes across is that the tragedy is not that difficult.
Things happen.
The tragedy is that life is not lived as life should be lived.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly.
Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: So that, that deep joy, you know, it just goes back to that,
that image of your, your grandfa of your father rather if he had
lived in the authentic human pre agricultural perhaps way mm-hmm.
Imagining him mapping out, you know, a stone circle
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
With
Rupert Isaacson: it for the ex with the excited participation
of the whole community.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
And, and, and the tragedy in that he's one of so many, it's not that,
it's sort of a few Yeah, no, exactly.
That, that falls out.
It, it's the majority that actually we've managed to create
a system where almost no one
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And we're, we're supposed to be not only in relationship to
each other because we're of the planet, we're of the ecosystem.
We're supposed to be in constant interspecies relation with about
300, 400 species surrounding us.
We're supposed to be in constant relation with That's just animal species.
Yes.
In constant relation with.
Our environment and we're not, and we are grief stricken.
I think we're, I don't see how it's possible to not be mentally ill.
I consider myself mentally ill.
Mentally.
Yes,
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.
No, definitely
Rupert Isaacson: to because of just the reaction to the extreme
pain of having to live that way.
And I'm lucky, I mean, I was on my horses in the forest earlier
today looking at road air.
Yeah.
And even with that, you know, there's the limitations that are involved, you know?
Yep.
So, and this thing of non-hierarchical is so interesting because while it is
true that while I'm riding my horse, I actually very much would like them
to go the way I need them to go.
And, you know, when there's a car coming on the road, you know, not wander out into
the middle of the road, get, it doesn't
Emelie Cajsdotter: exclude that because what exactly,
Rupert Isaacson: it's, it doesn't
Emelie Cajsdotter: exclude that, it,
Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's that feeling of okay, do, do we feel that we both
kind of want to do this together?
Exactly.
If we do, then okay, let's work out just as if I'm gonna follow you up a mountain.
Yeah.
Your gaff, it's your hood, you know that mountain.
I'm following you.
We've agreed.
Because it would be just absurd for me to try and lead that mountain.
'cause I dunno, the mountain, you know, similarly, if, if you're walking in
my hood on the way to the supermarket, I'll probably show you the way
just 'cause I want to know the way.
But, but
Emelie Cajsdotter: in balance of hierarchy comes when we put a different value on it.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Well it's, it's deferring to expertise.
It's deferring to, experience, it's saying, well, you know, okay, I,
I need to learn about this thing.
Let's say it's acupuncture, you know?
Okay.
I dunno from it, and Emily does, but I'm gonna defer to her expertise.
That's just common sense.
And of course, as people get older, you know, one wants to defer to
elders because they know more.
And we, and all of that is gone.
You know, we don't, we put our old people in, old people parking, and
I know, it's just, it's just like we couldn't get it more wrong.
And obviously, you know, many people have said this over the
generations, we're not the first.
But it, it is so interesting when you bring it into the focus
of a life, you know, and you talk about your grandparents and
even up there
on the edge of civilization, which, you know, Sweden is mm-hmm.
Because there is a point like Canada, there's a point
beyond which it sort of stops.
Mm-hmm.
Even there.
Well, you know, so I think what we would, what I'd like to revisit Okay.
In episode two is obviously the rest of the story, and then how
from your travels, you get the sanctuary going and what you do there.
And then I promise, promise, promise listeners, we are going to do a
set, a series, a little series on fairies, nids, dryads, trolls.
Yes.
And we're gonna go down that rabbit hole time and we're gonna do it unashamedly.
And we're goingly and I don't give a shit whether or not
anyone thinks it's real or not.
I couldn't give a flying monkeys because I not,
Emelie Cajsdotter: neither can I, I I just enjoy, enjoy, I think,
Rupert Isaacson: oh, it's such a relief to me that one can
actually have that conversation.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
No, if it was up to what people I, if
Rupert Isaacson: you think we're away with a fair, wouldn't even have begun.
We're, yeah.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
And we're not hiding it, so
go listen to something else.
You know, it's like when people want to make animals here more obedient or
whatever, if they're on a class, it's like, no, you can go to any farm all
over the world and people and animals will do exactly what you want them to do.
Now you are in the one place when that's not gonna happen.
Just don't be here.
It's not that hard.
Woo.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And, and you know, in, in terms of the safe functionality, again, like there I am
teaching somebody some dressage, or there I am serving an autistic kid on my horse.
Yeah, sure.
I need, I absolutely need that full buy-in from my client partner.
Yes.
However, I don't want to be his boss.
I am completely uninterested in being anybody's boss,
Emelie Cajsdotter: and I'm sure he's perfectly happy to be part of that team
a a lot easier when you do it together.
Rupert Isaacson: One thing that is really interesting with this is I have
learned to hear when a horse is saying no, and at first I thought that that
was not something you would be allowed to respect, or if you did, there'd
be this unraveling of everything and
Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly.
Chaos
Rupert Isaacson: and people would be killed.
And then I was absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
No.
Is not no forever any more than if you say to me, Rupert, do you
wanna walk the dog right now?
Or Rupert, do you wanna cup of tea right now?
I might say yes, or I might say no, but if I say no, it doesn't
mean I never want a cup of tea.
You know, it just means a particular moment.
Right.
And, and to learn to discern in, in, in, in that way.
And of course in the hunter gathering context, the animals do have that
autonomy, but in agriculture they don't.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, exactly.
There's something happening in that shift.
Rupert Isaacson: And so, you know, if we can be now able to sort of
post agriculture, be able to bring ourselves back into that relationship.
But not only as hunters
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: Or as medicine, but just in interaction.
But that doesn't also have to be an extreme thing.
Oh, now we're not allowed to ride the horses anymore.
Even put a bit in your mouth.
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's not that it's not that easy,
Rupert Isaacson: too extreme
Emelie Cajsdotter: or it's, it's, it's changing your intention.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's not so much changing the outer circumstance
as you might first think.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
But it's very rare to have a conversation like this in which
that type of discernment is made.
Usually when one has a conversation like this, it's one
extreme or the other extreme.
Yes.
It's so incredibly refreshing, Emily, to be able to talk about stuff
that sounds completely nuts from an absolutely common sensical point of view.
So that then one can get to, well, is it okay to ride my
horse or is it okay to Yes.
You know, for us all to be setting these flexible boundaries
with each other mm-hmm.
Species.
And I think, you know, where I was at the beginning of this, where I was
saying, you know, when people say I'm an animal communicator or whatever,
and I'm always so skeptical because it always seems I personal to that human.
It's like, is it really?
You know
Emelie Cajsdotter: what,
Rupert Isaacson: to me?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
And, and I think maybe.
What you are unaware of or what people are unaware of is that maybe
the actual contact point was real.
But the minute my brain picks up on what I'm experiencing,
my interpretation starts.
And if I'm unaware of that, I will believe in my interpretation.
So I will actually think that the horse is really saying that because my brain
is so fast in experiencing everything as real, whether it's true or not,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, I was just having a conversation, actually, oddly
enough, with another Swedish friend who I'm gonna be doing a podcast
with, and her autistic daughter, who I've known for many, many years.
And, and Lena, her daughter is a Helena, is, is is her mother.
They live in New York, but they're Swedes non-speaking.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of people listening will be aware of the current thing going
wrong called the telepathy tapes.
I dunno if you've come across those, but
Emelie Cajsdotter: heard about them.
Rupert Isaacson: Very, very worth listening to.
Massively.
But basically yes, people not speaking, it turns out seeming to be able to
do it on a, on a telepathic level.
Okay.
And then speaking through people they love, parents trusted, but then realizing
that sometimes what the p the as the P.
People pick up and become a filter then exactly what you said, the
interpretation and thoughts of the person who's then the filter begin to cloud.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: What's said and then what ends up being said might or might
not be what the original person was.
Yeah.
People are learning how to navigate this.
Mm-hmm.
Fascinating.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: That we could do the same with animals.
Emelie Cajsdotter: Definitely.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright, well, okay.
We better make another date, haven't we?
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: In that case, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hit the end recording button.
So, listeners just know this is only the first one.
I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
If you did, please help us to make more.
Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up.
If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson.
com.
And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with.
autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism.
There's a whole range of cool stuff.
Putting a show together like this is not an easy task.
If you'd like to support us, please consider going to our Patreon page
and showing us some love there.
Even the smallest donation, it really helps us to keep the good content coming.
So go to rupertisakson.
com and click on the Patreon link.
Not to mention our excellent merch.
Please go to our shop and check out some of our really cool
rock and roll themed merch.
T shirts, hoodies, all that sort of thing.
rupertisatson.
com, it's all there.
I can't wait for our next guest and also to meet you there.
In the meantime, remember, live free.
Ride free.