WEBVTT

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This file was generated by Descript 

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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, people, this is an interesting,
, and rather exceptional

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podcast we have coming up.

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I just want to give a disclaimer.

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There will be some
potential triggers in here.

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We'll be talking about, , suicide,
suicidal ideation, and also some

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aspects of the supernatural.

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So if any of these three
things are trigger points for

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you, please switch off now.

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Thanks for joining us.

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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

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The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our

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audience, for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do here,
please give it a thumbs up,

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like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really, really helps
us to make the pro.

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To find out about our certification
courses, online video libraries,

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books, and other courses,
please go to rupertisakson.

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com.

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So now let's jump in.

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Welcome back to Live Free, ride
Free, where we talk to people

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who have lived and are living
self-actualized lives of all kinds.

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And what can we learn from them?

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Today, Emily K's daughter
you're gonna think I'm nuts.

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Emily doesn't just talk to animals.

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She talks to the stones, the
mountains, the trees, the lot.

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And those of you who know me will know
that I'm actually quite skeptical of

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this because in the work that I do with
horses and with autism, I get a lot of

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people coming and saying, oh, I'm an
animal communicator and blah, blah, blah.

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And usually my bullshit meter
goes, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.

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And the reason it does that is because
frequently the reports of what the animals

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are saying or whatever is often somehow
negative towards the humans or something.

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And I, in my time with the Bushman
the sun in the Kalahari where

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there's a lot of direct animal
communication going on, those kinds

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of things are never the message.

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They're always much more within
the animals sphere of reference

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of which we are peripheral, not.

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Central.

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And so this idea that, well, you know,
my rider doesn't ride me well enough, or

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something like that, just always struck
me as sort of one human to another human,

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sort of using the horse as a, you know,
way to criticize another human basically.

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But the fact is that communication with
nature is a real thing and has been a real

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thing ever since humanity has been here.

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Because guess what?

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We're part of nature.

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And if you've spent any time with
hunting and gathering people, some of

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you listening have, you will know that
the way in which they communicate with

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the environment around them, anima
and inanimate is appears supernatural.

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However they would posit and I
think I would posit having spent

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a lot of time with them, that it's
not supernatural, it's natural,

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it's just that it's happening on a
level that we have forgotten, lost

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the need for, become deaf to, et
cetera in post agricultural society.

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So anyway, that was a long preamble
to say that Emily is one of the

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few people I've met who seems
to have an unbroken connection.

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Despite being within our society.

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And I find this fascinating and I
want her to talk to us about it.

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So, and, and how really this
has defined her life and, and

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her livelihood and everything.

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So, Emily, welcome.

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I hope I did you justice.

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Tell us who you are, what you do.

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Emelie Cajsdotter: Thank
you for having me here.

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And as you and I know but maybe the
listeners do not, is that you helped me

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a great deal by, by saying that, this
way of relating to your surroundings

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which I have recently just given the
concept name empathic inter being that

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that is a natural state for human being.

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So maybe I'm not the weirdo after all.

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And that was both very devastating
for my ego and helpful for myself.

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Rupert Isaacson: Oh, sorry.

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I'll try to stroke your ego.

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No, no.

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We inate of course.

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No,

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Emelie Cajsdotter: once we got it crashed,
please don't put it together again.

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Yes, it's, it's hard
to know where to begin.

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An answer to that question.

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Start,

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Rupert Isaacson: start at the beginning.

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Okay.

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You, I forgot to say
that you're in Sweden.

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You are in a very natural
place in, in Western Sweden.

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But take us back to your beginning
because I know that you were not always

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raised in nature that no, not at all.

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How did this evolve for you
to start as a small girl?

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And just take us on the journey, please.

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Emelie Cajsdotter: I think when
people see the work I do today, which

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is living in nature, working with
biodiversity, communicating with all

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sorts of living entities it's easy to
think that I grew up in the countryside

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in very sort of loving and caring
environment, but it was the opposite.

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I don't mean to blame anyone by saying
that it wasn't loving and caring.

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It, it was a, a great
destructive mess as I think why,

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Rupert Isaacson: why

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Emelie Cajsdotter: or
civilization in many places are.

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My father I grew up in a highrise building
in the outskirts of Gothenburg in Sweden.

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One of these high rise building with
sort of 10 floors and several doors in.

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And I had a key around my
neck because, there weren't

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really very many adults around.

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And it was this sort of concrete
jungle type environment.

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And my father, who most likely today
would have been given some sort of

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diagnosis within the autistic spectrum,
was a researcher in abstract mathematics.

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And that he could do, he
was apparently very, very

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intelligent in that narrow field.

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And he lived his life
on that very fine line.

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That fine line.

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Didn't include any social skills
any capacity to at all interact

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with his surroundings including me.

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And he died when I was five in
what was most likely suicide.

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He had asthma and he mixed his asthma
medicines so that he suffocated and died.

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And I was five at the time, and I
was with him when that happened.

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So I would say that that had a
huge impact on me and still do.

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It's like there are things that you sort
of get over and that there are things

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that you learn to integrate in your being.

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And I would say that that
would be one of those.

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Rupert Isaacson: Does that mean
you actually watched him die?

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Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, I watched him die.

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Rupert Isaacson: Can please, if it's
all right, take us through that, because

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Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah,

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Rupert Isaacson: that
could mean so many things.

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Can you, can you be as
clear as you can be?

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What, what happened?

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Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

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Well, I was five and people think,
tend to think that children are

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very unaware of what happens around
them, especially in a younger age.

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And I have very clear memories from
a very young age, and maybe because

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those are my links to my ancestral
memories and maybe I, my being would

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be more alert to really collect them
somehow knowing that he would pass.

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This was not the only complication.

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My mother was not really equipped
for the role of having children.

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And she knew that she knew that that was,
this was really not at all doable for

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her for various reasons, but she grew
up in a, in a generation where having

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a husband and children is what you do.

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So.

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It, it was what it was.

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She couldn't really at all
deal with having children.

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So, and since my father was also
incapable of any kind of care it was

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my mother's mother, that grandmother
that would basically raise me.

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And she was a psychic healer.

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So thi this is the,
this is the little pool.

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Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly,
you were an only child?

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Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

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I think maybe, I mean, as much inspiration
I got from this upbringing, I, it

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might also be a good thing that there
weren't a lot of kids in this situation.

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Rupert Isaacson: Right.

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And then the second
thing, this grandmother.

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Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: Your mother's mother.

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Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.

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Rupert Isaacson: Also in
the tower block there in

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Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah, in
another highrise building.

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Actually, not in the beginning, but
after my father died and she realized

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that this is all gonna go to pot she
moved to another highrise building.

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Where, where was she

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Rupert Isaacson: before that?

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Was she more in the country or, or No,

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Emelie Cajsdotter: she was in
the middle of the city as well.

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Her interesting dream was always
to become a mathematician.

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She was also highly intelligent
in that measurable way that

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makes sense for mathematics, if

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Rupert Isaacson: well, all
these people working for Saab.

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I know that Gotham, no,

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Emelie Cajsdotter: none
of none of them were

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Rupert Isaacson: center for the Saab.

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Emelie Cajsdotter: My father was
working in the university and my

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mother was working in the university
too, because she has this whatever

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unusual skill with languages.

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So she speaks seven languages.

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And your mother?

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Yes.

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They all have like racing heads.

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Rupert Isaacson: Is your
mother still around?

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Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Emelie Cajsdotter: Okay.

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And so, so did my grandmother,
but my grandmother being born

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sort of, well more than a hundred
years ago she was never allowed to

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pursue in any studies of that kind.

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Rupert Isaacson: And when you say
she was a psychic healer, sorry,

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I'm, there's a journalist in me.

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I've gotta piece all puzzle
pieces together first before we.

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Psychic Keila.

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How did you know?

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How did she know?

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And in that urban context, that's million

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Emelie Cajsdotter: dollar question.

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She was very good at looking into
people's future, and I didn't

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really like that because she

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Rupert Isaacson: would
do that as a party trick.

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She'd do that for a living.

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No, no, no.

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People came

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Emelie Cajsdotter: to ask her for
help and she never charged money.

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She had some other daily,

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Rupert Isaacson: but how did that evolve?

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How did it evolve that, did she go
around saying, oh, and by the way,

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you, oh no, people just, you're gonna
blow your nose next Tuesday week.

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Or like, how did people
find out and how did, I

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Emelie Cajsdotter: don't know because I
was so young, but they just, they just

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knew and they just, and people would were

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Rupert Isaacson: around coming to her.

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Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

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They would come to her.

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And I, they never

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Rupert Isaacson: asked.

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She never told how it evolved.

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Emelie Cajsdotter: No, actually
I never really thought of it

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until you ask now, to be honest.

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Anyway.

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She would very good at, at
that's, that's brilliant.

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No, she would see people's future.

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And I found that a bit uncomfortable
because it, it raised the question

00:11:12.885 --> 00:11:17.475
in me whether there actually
is a, a set destiny or not.

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And I didn't really like that.

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Mm.

00:11:20.475 --> 00:11:24.045
So I didn't want her to
see anything about me.

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Some, she said a few things anyway,
because she just couldn't stop herself.

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And, and so far she's been correct.

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But she also believed in all
sorts of guardian, angels,

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reincarnation all of these things.

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Rupert Isaacson: Do you know
how she evolved these beliefs?

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Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

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Okay.

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Rupert Isaacson: Because it doesn't
sound like it was in the family culture.

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The family culture was very
cerebral and very intellectual.

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Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:11:49.230 --> 00:11:50.880
I have no idea where that comes from.

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Was she religious?

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Interesting thing is that on my
father's side his sister has almost

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the same qualities and nobody
knows where that comes from either.

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Okay.

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So

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Rupert Isaacson: strange northern people.

00:12:03.815 --> 00:12:04.105
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

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Yes.

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And she was such a good healer that if
I was at home and she was at home and I

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had a headache because I had migraines
for as long as I can remember, and

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I would have a migraine coming on, I
would call her and she would just do

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something that I wouldn't know over
the phone and the headache would go.

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And, and to me that was always normal and.

00:12:29.975 --> 00:12:37.475
And when I started to have experiences
myself and, and, and being confused and

00:12:37.475 --> 00:12:42.755
scared and overwhelmed, I would tell her
logically she would be the one to tell.

00:12:42.845 --> 00:12:45.305
And she would always
tell me that it's normal.

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She never made a big deal out of it.

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She never made me feel special,
and she never made me feel wrong.

00:12:54.065 --> 00:12:58.235
So, thinking about it afterwards,
I think that approach of this

00:12:58.235 --> 00:13:04.785
is fine, this is normal was very
helpful in whatever happened later.

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Rupert Isaacson: And she never, she
never asked, told you, or you never

00:13:07.635 --> 00:13:09.465
asked, where does this come from, granny?

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You know how No.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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There.

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No, it just felt

00:13:12.465 --> 00:13:13.875
Emelie Cajsdotter: natural and normal.

00:13:14.220 --> 00:13:14.510
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:13:15.170 --> 00:13:21.785
Emelie Cajsdotter: And before my
father died he went to her and asked

00:13:21.785 --> 00:13:23.225
her if she could look after me.

00:13:24.005 --> 00:13:26.345
And she saw him dying.

00:13:26.345 --> 00:13:30.605
She told me that years later she saw
him dying and didn't want to believe it.

00:13:31.055 --> 00:13:32.315
Mm-hmm.

00:13:32.316 --> 00:13:36.246
So, but she didn't want to upset him,
so she said, yes, of course I will.

00:13:37.116 --> 00:13:38.826
And then he died.

00:13:39.816 --> 00:13:46.726
So, she would be my sort of human
contact, but she, I think she taught

00:13:46.726 --> 00:13:50.086
me so many things, and maybe one
of the most important things she

00:13:50.176 --> 00:13:54.676
taught me, because she later ended up
committing suicide as well, but then

00:13:54.676 --> 00:14:01.666
I was 17 years old is that there is
nothing black and white in this life.

00:14:02.266 --> 00:14:02.356
Mm-hmm.

00:14:02.726 --> 00:14:03.926
It's not that.

00:14:05.096 --> 00:14:10.196
How could she teach me all the things
that has proven to be so helpful

00:14:10.196 --> 00:14:14.126
throughout my life and still not
being able to live with herself?

00:14:14.816 --> 00:14:16.106
How, how is that possible?

00:14:17.066 --> 00:14:24.596
And, and how can my father who I felt
some strange bond to, although he

00:14:24.596 --> 00:14:29.426
could never show emotions in the usual
way, he could definitely radiate love.

00:14:30.796 --> 00:14:32.926
How could he kill himself?

00:14:33.886 --> 00:14:40.876
And I come to this soothing
free conclusion after

00:14:40.876 --> 00:14:41.896
dealing with this for years.

00:14:41.896 --> 00:14:45.526
Is that because all of it is
possible at the same time?

00:14:46.936 --> 00:14:48.226
It's, yes.

00:14:48.286 --> 00:14:51.256
My grandmother could teach me
all these things and she still

00:14:51.256 --> 00:14:52.246
couldn't live with herself.

00:14:52.246 --> 00:14:53.596
And both are true.

00:14:54.196 --> 00:14:58.216
And although they are completely
contradictory they can definitely

00:14:58.216 --> 00:15:00.616
coexist within the same human being.

00:15:00.676 --> 00:15:07.246
And it doesn't affect my love
for her or for any other of my

00:15:07.546 --> 00:15:10.076
highly destructive family members.

00:15:10.556 --> 00:15:13.406
Rupert Isaacson: Let's just go back
to, I, I want to delve into, in, in

00:15:13.406 --> 00:15:15.116
a moment what we think the motives.

00:15:15.476 --> 00:15:20.336
'cause I suspect the motives for
each of them to take their own lives

00:15:20.426 --> 00:15:21.776
were probably a little different.

00:15:21.776 --> 00:15:28.196
And I think this is a, a worthwhile topic
to explore for the reasons that you just

00:15:28.286 --> 00:15:32.966
mentioned, and that many things can exist
simultaneously, including timelines.

00:15:33.536 --> 00:15:33.716
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:15:33.956 --> 00:15:34.196
You

00:15:34.196 --> 00:15:36.656
Rupert Isaacson: know, having,
again, spent a lot of time

00:15:36.656 --> 00:15:37.976
with indigenous people.

00:15:38.396 --> 00:15:38.726
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:15:38.731 --> 00:15:43.706
And I think for, sorry, for a modern,
civilized human being you could say

00:15:43.706 --> 00:15:45.926
that this was a harsh learning curve.

00:15:46.406 --> 00:15:46.736
Rupert Isaacson: Yes,

00:15:46.736 --> 00:15:47.066
Emelie Cajsdotter: for sure.

00:15:47.456 --> 00:15:48.836
But maybe a small chart

00:15:48.836 --> 00:15:51.026
Rupert Isaacson: because, you know,
you also rely on your parents to

00:15:51.076 --> 00:15:55.846
Emelie Cajsdotter: but maybe that's what
it takes to break down this linear mind.

00:15:56.326 --> 00:15:57.136
Rupert Isaacson: Right, right.

00:15:57.226 --> 00:16:00.976
And linear, I think is the word there,
because if one thinks of time as, as

00:16:00.976 --> 00:16:05.806
vertical, which indigenous people tend
to that, as far as I've been aware,

00:16:06.046 --> 00:16:09.406
then as you say, things are happening
simultaneously, past, present, and future.

00:16:09.746 --> 00:16:12.056
We think of it obviously
very much as linear.

00:16:12.761 --> 00:16:14.351
And are brought up to think that way.

00:16:15.311 --> 00:16:16.571
And of course it's comforting.

00:16:17.021 --> 00:16:19.331
I feel more to, and I'm all about comfort.

00:16:19.331 --> 00:16:22.031
I think comfort is good to
think of it as vertical.

00:16:22.031 --> 00:16:26.501
But let's just go back to, I just want
to now dial us back to your father.

00:16:26.651 --> 00:16:27.011
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:16:27.011 --> 00:16:27.341
Yes, please.

00:16:27.341 --> 00:16:30.011
Rupert Isaacson: You are you, you
said, you say you, were you in

00:16:30.011 --> 00:16:31.121
the room with him when he died?

00:16:31.121 --> 00:16:32.291
Like, did you see him die?

00:16:32.341 --> 00:16:38.971
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I saw him
almost die which also is a storyline.

00:16:39.071 --> 00:16:45.491
He had taken those medications, he
mixed his medications, and later I

00:16:45.491 --> 00:16:49.331
was told that he'd mixed them several
times before and ended up in hospital.

00:16:49.631 --> 00:16:49.721
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:16:50.081 --> 00:16:52.601
Emelie Cajsdotter: So I
understand that he, to some

00:16:52.601 --> 00:16:54.581
extent, knew what he was doing.

00:16:55.511 --> 00:16:58.411
And this was between
Christmas and New Year's.

00:16:59.011 --> 00:17:04.111
And I remember that Christmas, I was
clinging onto him in a way that I would

00:17:04.111 --> 00:17:09.811
never do because, because he wasn't
physically accessible as a father.

00:17:09.811 --> 00:17:10.921
You couldn't sit on his lap.

00:17:10.921 --> 00:17:12.241
You couldn't hug him.

00:17:12.241 --> 00:17:14.641
He didn't, that, that's not
how you interacted with him.

00:17:15.301 --> 00:17:17.391
But and, and for me, that was fine.

00:17:17.391 --> 00:17:24.771
But on that Christmas, I remember like
really grasping him, like holding on.

00:17:25.746 --> 00:17:27.726
Legs and arms and clothes and whatever.

00:17:28.326 --> 00:17:34.631
So, so somehow I knew and, and,
and he knew that, that there,

00:17:34.631 --> 00:17:35.831
there is a parting coming.

00:17:36.101 --> 00:17:41.381
And when it actually happened, he
was sitting on the bed in the bedroom

00:17:41.441 --> 00:17:43.151
looking out through the window.

00:17:43.151 --> 00:17:45.941
And outside of these windows in
this flat, we were on the third

00:17:45.941 --> 00:17:50.321
floor, were this amazing old tool.

00:17:50.321 --> 00:17:56.261
Although we were in the city beach
trees, like huge, very dark stamps.

00:17:56.321 --> 00:18:03.521
And, and it took me many years to
fully understand how present they were.

00:18:04.061 --> 00:18:07.541
It's like, yeah, you think
you're alone and, and you're

00:18:07.541 --> 00:18:08.921
vulnerable and very exposed.

00:18:08.921 --> 00:18:11.051
You are when you're a kid and
everything is falling apart.

00:18:11.051 --> 00:18:16.461
But those trees, they were there
and they helped much more than,

00:18:17.121 --> 00:18:19.221
than I was aware of at the time.

00:18:19.281 --> 00:18:21.141
So they were also there.

00:18:21.501 --> 00:18:25.551
So he's looking out of the window at
the trees and so am I, he's not looking

00:18:25.551 --> 00:18:27.201
at me, we're not having any contact.

00:18:27.891 --> 00:18:31.731
And I understand that he can't
breathe and he's about to fall,

00:18:31.731 --> 00:18:33.501
so he collapses on the floor.

00:18:34.401 --> 00:18:40.141
So I see him collapse on the
floor and I think that he is

00:18:40.141 --> 00:18:43.711
still in his body as that happens.

00:18:44.986 --> 00:18:50.276
And sometime around that time, the
neighbors comes and they take me out

00:18:50.306 --> 00:18:53.996
and they, and they say that, oh, he's,
he, he only has difficulty swallowing.

00:18:53.996 --> 00:18:55.406
I know that he's dying.

00:18:56.126 --> 00:19:01.676
But I think the fact that I, at that
point in time didn't see his spirit

00:19:01.676 --> 00:19:10.496
leaving left me in a state of something
that later turned into quite an extreme

00:19:11.486 --> 00:19:17.946
workaholic personality where I spent
many years trying to save and rescue, I

00:19:17.946 --> 00:19:24.906
dunno how many individuals and animals,
mainly, I mean, we have a sanctuary here.

00:19:25.376 --> 00:19:30.536
And I'm not saying that that's
wrong, but in adult years I

00:19:30.536 --> 00:19:33.536
understood that within me.

00:19:34.376 --> 00:19:36.806
He wasn't really fully dead.

00:19:36.806 --> 00:19:38.786
It took me years to accept that he was.

00:19:39.416 --> 00:19:44.336
So, every time I got a chance to
save someone, there was hope for him.

00:19:45.236 --> 00:19:52.436
And every time I couldn't, I
had to face this bottomless pain

00:19:52.496 --> 00:19:54.776
of accepting that he's gone.

00:19:56.226 --> 00:20:00.296
So you could say that that
story went on past that point.

00:20:00.296 --> 00:20:05.096
Although after his death, quite shortly
after, I could see him sitting in the

00:20:05.096 --> 00:20:07.946
living room, always in the yellow pajamas.

00:20:07.946 --> 00:20:10.166
I have no idea why he would
always have those clothes on.

00:20:10.166 --> 00:20:14.976
But and, and I could talk to him
and I realized that he is dead.

00:20:15.026 --> 00:20:17.036
But he's visible to me sometimes.

00:20:17.036 --> 00:20:17.906
I can't control it.

00:20:17.906 --> 00:20:19.136
I can't ask him to come.

00:20:19.136 --> 00:20:20.336
But sometimes he comes.

00:20:21.176 --> 00:20:28.016
And you mentioned the reason for
him choosing to die, and, and I

00:20:28.016 --> 00:20:33.176
think he answered that in, in one
of those early meeting points.

00:20:34.046 --> 00:20:36.326
Then I went on into my
own self-destructiveness.

00:20:36.326 --> 00:20:36.386
So

00:20:36.401 --> 00:20:38.276
Rupert Isaacson: you can't go on,
you just gotta tell us what that is.

00:20:38.276 --> 00:20:40.136
You can't drop that and leave it.

00:20:40.141 --> 00:20:40.321
No,

00:20:40.321 --> 00:20:40.766
Emelie Cajsdotter: no, no, no.

00:20:40.766 --> 00:20:41.246
I'm gonna go.

00:20:41.561 --> 00:20:41.681
Okay.

00:20:41.731 --> 00:20:45.236
But what, what he said is
that the difference between

00:20:45.236 --> 00:20:47.316
you and me is the words.

00:20:48.846 --> 00:20:53.916
And what I understand from
that sentence is that.

00:20:54.521 --> 00:20:54.941
Yes.

00:20:54.941 --> 00:20:59.141
I also live a life that is
quite a thin thread that goes

00:20:59.141 --> 00:21:01.181
far out from what's normal.

00:21:01.551 --> 00:21:07.401
But I have a way to reconnect to
the common world of fellow human

00:21:07.401 --> 00:21:08.901
beings, which is through the words.

00:21:09.051 --> 00:21:16.381
And he didn't he left a box of
equations that no one could solve.

00:21:16.431 --> 00:21:21.831
He never expressed himself
except that one time after death.

00:21:23.871 --> 00:21:29.901
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think he left
because he found it to painful to be here?

00:21:29.901 --> 00:21:37.731
Do you think he left because
he felt he could do his work

00:21:38.481 --> 00:21:40.101
better from another place?

00:21:41.271 --> 00:21:46.461
Do you think it was an act of, was it
an act of distress, him taking his life?

00:21:46.461 --> 00:21:47.931
Or was it an act of

00:21:50.061 --> 00:21:56.541
logical creativity to sort of go to the
next professional phase or something?

00:21:56.541 --> 00:21:57.531
What, what, what, what do you

00:21:58.311 --> 00:22:00.831
Emelie Cajsdotter: I always felt
it was more on the desperate side.

00:22:01.161 --> 00:22:01.281
Okay.

00:22:02.241 --> 00:22:04.736
Rupert Isaacson: What, what was it
that he found so painful, do you think?

00:22:04.736 --> 00:22:07.586
Because if he had the job in the
university and he could exist

00:22:07.586 --> 00:22:09.026
in that mathematical world.

00:22:09.506 --> 00:22:09.626
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.

00:22:10.196 --> 00:22:10.826
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:22:10.826 --> 00:22:11.789
You know, he had to, and then

00:22:11.794 --> 00:22:14.846
Emelie Cajsdotter: he had been
offered a job at Stanford University

00:22:14.846 --> 00:22:16.766
too, so he could have gone deeper.

00:22:17.216 --> 00:22:17.366
Mm-hmm.

00:22:17.666 --> 00:22:21.206
And probably met more people
that wouldn't find him so odd.

00:22:21.211 --> 00:22:21.451
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:22:22.351 --> 00:22:28.626
Emelie Cajsdotter: But he, he chose
not to which is unexplainable.

00:22:28.766 --> 00:22:36.306
But I think what I continue to
explore after this and still do,

00:22:36.306 --> 00:22:42.216
is the isolation of modern humans.

00:22:42.966 --> 00:22:43.236
Mm-hmm.

00:22:43.326 --> 00:22:51.366
I think there is a specific pain in
isolation that may not be like emotional

00:22:51.456 --> 00:22:59.756
heartbreak, the type of pain or anxiety,
pain or those things that we can phrase,

00:22:59.786 --> 00:23:09.866
but another overwhelming pain that is both
inside and outside and might be the reason

00:23:09.866 --> 00:23:17.456
why we feed ourselves so much stimuli
and why we are so costly for this planet.

00:23:18.486 --> 00:23:27.786
And I, I think for him that isolation
was, very obvious and maybe the things

00:23:27.786 --> 00:23:34.896
that more so-called normal people would
do to suit that pain didn't work for him.

00:23:37.356 --> 00:23:42.276
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think in
another, perhaps more authentic human

00:23:42.276 --> 00:23:44.796
context he'd have been All right.

00:23:44.886 --> 00:23:48.186
And if so, what would that context
have been and what would his

00:23:48.186 --> 00:23:49.566
role have been, do you think?

00:23:51.336 --> 00:23:56.136
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I think
when I live with animals, any

00:23:56.136 --> 00:24:02.496
other species, I notice that when
you remove the filter of linear

00:24:02.496 --> 00:24:06.216
thinking, you also remove hierarchy.

00:24:06.996 --> 00:24:14.196
And when you remove hierarchy based
on values everyone seemed to have a

00:24:14.196 --> 00:24:21.756
unique role that is unmeasurable in
value and uncomparable with anyone else.

00:24:22.746 --> 00:24:26.676
And what I also notice is an
obvious acceptance that you're

00:24:26.676 --> 00:24:31.776
not meant to be anything else
that would be stupid to be honest.

00:24:32.356 --> 00:24:38.056
So it seems like everyone else
except the modern human, linear

00:24:38.056 --> 00:24:43.416
society is making maximum use of.

00:24:43.911 --> 00:24:49.121
Individual capacity one way or another
which means that you don't have to

00:24:49.121 --> 00:24:53.951
do things that you're not meant to or
that you're not cut out to be able to.

00:24:54.891 --> 00:25:00.861
Which means that if he lived in,
in a, in a herd of horses, he could

00:25:00.891 --> 00:25:05.901
probably have spent his whole life
diving into this far, far, far

00:25:05.901 --> 00:25:08.541
away place of abstract mathematics.

00:25:09.081 --> 00:25:14.181
And someone else would make sure that
the wolves don't eat him or that they

00:25:14.181 --> 00:25:18.331
do get to the water place and that he
does get to sleep sometimes thinks that

00:25:18.331 --> 00:25:23.351
he could never really do for himself
as a human being would maybe in a

00:25:23.351 --> 00:25:29.371
different society be okay because it
would fit somebody else's unique role,

00:25:30.481 --> 00:25:30.961
Rupert Isaacson: I guess.

00:25:31.051 --> 00:25:31.441
Right.

00:25:32.251 --> 00:25:35.581
My question there though is that he
was, he was clearly valued, right?

00:25:35.631 --> 00:25:38.661
He had a job at the university
so people saw the value of

00:25:38.661 --> 00:25:41.391
his mathematical brilliance.

00:25:42.081 --> 00:25:42.141
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

00:25:42.141 --> 00:25:45.951
But I think it's in the relate, in the,
in the possibility to relate to others.

00:25:46.011 --> 00:25:46.431
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:25:49.281 --> 00:25:49.581
Right.

00:25:49.581 --> 00:25:54.891
So the, the professional context
not being enough, even if you're

00:25:54.891 --> 00:25:56.386
surrounded by your fellow nerds.

00:25:56.616 --> 00:25:56.906
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

00:25:57.411 --> 00:25:57.981
Yes.

00:25:58.251 --> 00:26:02.941
And, and, and if you look at
so I think we've all along been

00:26:02.941 --> 00:26:06.181
looking for the same thing, but my
approach is completely different.

00:26:06.901 --> 00:26:08.011
I think when,

00:26:10.111 --> 00:26:17.341
when I would try to explain any of
what empathic, inter being would be.

00:26:17.911 --> 00:26:17.941
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:26:18.331 --> 00:26:23.251
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's not, it's
not being psychic, it's not reading

00:26:23.251 --> 00:26:26.911
something, it's not interpreting someone.

00:26:26.911 --> 00:26:34.711
It is for a moment fully with
all senses, experience the

00:26:34.711 --> 00:26:36.571
other one's reality from within.

00:26:37.921 --> 00:26:44.611
And that can only happen if I am available
to the same extent for the other one.

00:26:45.601 --> 00:26:46.426
Rupert Isaacson: So feeling gotten

00:26:46.856 --> 00:26:47.146
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

00:26:47.256 --> 00:26:47.546
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:26:47.851 --> 00:26:48.541
Feeling seen.

00:26:48.931 --> 00:26:49.351
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:26:49.351 --> 00:26:54.451
So I exist in you and you exist
in me, and I think that is

00:26:54.451 --> 00:26:57.661
probably our original context.

00:26:57.691 --> 00:26:57.721
Mm.

00:26:59.071 --> 00:27:02.251
And when we lose that.

00:27:03.891 --> 00:27:10.341
We begin to experience some
sort of alienation that is

00:27:10.371 --> 00:27:12.861
harder for some than others.

00:27:12.921 --> 00:27:18.171
But I would say that a lot of
states of being that is normal

00:27:18.231 --> 00:27:25.161
in, in modern human life is maybe
a symptom of lack of empathic

00:27:25.161 --> 00:27:27.651
inter being and not normal at all.

00:27:27.651 --> 00:27:31.941
I I, I've heard you talk sometimes
and you seem to often mention

00:27:31.941 --> 00:27:33.561
that joy is a natural state.

00:27:34.191 --> 00:27:35.031
I would agree.

00:27:35.061 --> 00:27:37.761
And so what every other
species that I've met so far.

00:27:37.791 --> 00:27:38.121
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:27:38.571 --> 00:27:41.151
Emelie Cajsdotter: So why
do we have so little joy?

00:27:41.911 --> 00:27:45.961
And, and, and why does it disappear
in such an early, why do we stop

00:27:46.051 --> 00:27:48.332
playing earlier and earlier?

00:27:48.636 --> 00:27:48.966
We do.

00:27:48.966 --> 00:27:51.126
Rupert Isaacson: I think, I think we're
told to, I think we're conditioned.

00:27:51.156 --> 00:27:51.216
Yeah.

00:27:51.426 --> 00:27:54.336
But in our, in our natural
state, I don't think we do.

00:27:54.516 --> 00:27:54.906
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

00:27:54.996 --> 00:28:00.156
So, so there are lots of things that we
take for granted as a normal maturing of

00:28:00.156 --> 00:28:02.946
a human being that might not be at all.

00:28:03.816 --> 00:28:04.566
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:28:04.776 --> 00:28:04.956
Yeah.

00:28:04.956 --> 00:28:07.536
There's, well, I put away childish things.

00:28:07.536 --> 00:28:08.496
I'm like, fuck that.

00:28:08.586 --> 00:28:11.886
I mean, really, honestly I'm just
thinking as, you know, I'm, I'm

00:28:11.886 --> 00:28:17.556
just imagining, I'm projecting in my
imagination your father as being, say

00:28:17.556 --> 00:28:25.446
in the Kalahari or, you know, east
Africa or Paleolithic, even Neolithic

00:28:25.446 --> 00:28:28.236
Europe, you know, and I'm imagining him.

00:28:29.181 --> 00:28:32.361
Organizing the construction
of a stone circle

00:28:32.871 --> 00:28:33.771
Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly that, you know,

00:28:35.331 --> 00:28:38.321
Rupert Isaacson: and so those are my
questions, you know, it's like, okay,

00:28:38.591 --> 00:28:43.991
who built those ancient observatories
that now we realize go back way

00:28:44.081 --> 00:28:46.091
further than we thought they did?

00:28:46.091 --> 00:28:51.101
You know, with the new findings that
Gobekli Tepi and earlier archeological

00:28:51.101 --> 00:28:56.441
things that are, that are now rewriting
the whole human history thing from when

00:28:56.441 --> 00:28:59.981
I was an archeologist and historian
at university, which is, you know,

00:29:00.221 --> 00:29:02.081
starts with the Sumer 6,000 years ago.

00:29:02.081 --> 00:29:02.351
It's mm-hmm.

00:29:02.951 --> 00:29:08.291
You know, Goli, Tepi, they now know is
6,000 years older than that, and they

00:29:08.291 --> 00:29:11.171
just found another one close and there's
this new one in Indonesia that's older

00:29:11.291 --> 00:29:13.541
and these were being organized by people.

00:29:13.601 --> 00:29:16.891
And you could say, well, yeah, he was
doing that at the university in Goberg.

00:29:17.221 --> 00:29:17.701
Yeah.

00:29:18.331 --> 00:29:21.121
But not in a way, but in
a way that was isolated.

00:29:21.181 --> 00:29:24.511
Okay, you must sit here in this
department of mathematics or

00:29:24.511 --> 00:29:28.621
this department of physics at the
end of this corridor in a box.

00:29:29.016 --> 00:29:31.951
And you, and now do your equations.

00:29:31.981 --> 00:29:33.091
Put them in a box.

00:29:33.511 --> 00:29:34.021
Yeah, exactly.

00:29:34.021 --> 00:29:34.981
Rather than.

00:29:36.226 --> 00:29:37.456
Observe the heavens.

00:29:38.026 --> 00:29:38.116
Mm-hmm.

00:29:38.566 --> 00:29:40.456
Show us how to observe the heavens.

00:29:40.606 --> 00:29:41.056
Exactly.

00:29:41.146 --> 00:29:45.136
Be our mad, beautiful
druid who emanates love.

00:29:45.636 --> 00:29:48.906
Yes, we will absolutely make sure
that there's venison for you because

00:29:49.056 --> 00:29:52.946
we need to understand why that
strange light in the sky is coming.

00:29:52.946 --> 00:29:55.046
We need you to make those
calculations for us please.

00:29:55.226 --> 00:29:58.946
And we realize that that's gonna
take you, you know, five months of

00:29:58.946 --> 00:30:01.736
just sort of more or less sitting in
your heart while we bring you things

00:30:02.156 --> 00:30:05.096
and we are going to work on healing
you and we are going to love you.

00:30:05.876 --> 00:30:06.326
Exactly.

00:30:06.336 --> 00:30:07.326
And let you be.

00:30:08.016 --> 00:30:09.691
Emelie Cajsdotter: That would've
worked is my, that would've

00:30:09.691 --> 00:30:09.771
Rupert Isaacson: worked.

00:30:09.936 --> 00:30:10.266
Yeah.

00:30:10.416 --> 00:30:11.046
Yeah, yeah.

00:30:11.046 --> 00:30:11.646
No, I get it.

00:30:11.646 --> 00:30:12.096
I get it.

00:30:12.096 --> 00:30:12.666
I get it.

00:30:13.086 --> 00:30:15.366
Because, you know, he must have
had a great joy like I could

00:30:15.366 --> 00:30:17.946
imagine when he was in flow and
he was in the zone with his Oh,

00:30:17.946 --> 00:30:18.156
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

00:30:18.186 --> 00:30:21.276
When he was flow, flow, he would
gallop around in the living room

00:30:21.276 --> 00:30:25.866
and jump up and down and make little
noises which was hilarious to watch.

00:30:26.196 --> 00:30:26.436
Okay.

00:30:28.716 --> 00:30:33.006
So he, he did express himself,
but not, not the way you would

00:30:33.036 --> 00:30:36.186
expect an adult man of his age to.

00:30:36.276 --> 00:30:36.726
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:30:36.726 --> 00:30:39.126
So he was playing among the
fractals and the fib sequence

00:30:40.261 --> 00:30:41.676
and the beauty of creation.

00:30:41.916 --> 00:30:42.156
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

00:30:42.516 --> 00:30:43.296
Rupert Isaacson: But unable to

00:30:43.326 --> 00:30:45.036
Emelie Cajsdotter: gallop
on the spot like a horse.

00:30:45.516 --> 00:30:45.786
Fantastic.

00:30:46.716 --> 00:30:47.226
Something

00:30:48.726 --> 00:30:49.686
Rupert Isaacson: autistic behaviors.

00:30:49.686 --> 00:30:49.836
Yeah.

00:30:49.836 --> 00:30:50.946
No, a, a amazing.

00:30:51.391 --> 00:30:51.681
Okay.

00:30:51.686 --> 00:30:52.266
Okay.

00:30:52.266 --> 00:30:54.306
So he leaves.

00:30:54.606 --> 00:30:54.786
Mm-hmm.

00:30:55.026 --> 00:30:56.346
You are there when that happens.

00:30:57.066 --> 00:30:57.786
You are five.

00:30:58.476 --> 00:30:58.746
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

00:30:58.986 --> 00:30:59.886
Rupert Isaacson: Let's go on from there.

00:31:00.621 --> 00:31:04.551
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, the thing
is you might think, think that lots

00:31:04.551 --> 00:31:07.551
of things happened after, but I would
say that a lot of things also happened

00:31:07.551 --> 00:31:11.511
before, and, and I know that they
happened before because this is such a

00:31:11.871 --> 00:31:16.971
cut in my timeline, so I know how old
I am depending on if he's alive or not.

00:31:17.601 --> 00:31:23.141
So I know that before the age
of five I have this obsessive, I

00:31:23.141 --> 00:31:29.281
would call it obsessive fascination
with the end of consciousness.

00:31:30.861 --> 00:31:36.591
So my thought that I can't let go
of to the point of having panic

00:31:36.591 --> 00:31:41.701
attacks and not being able to sleep
is is the universe expanding or not?

00:31:42.901 --> 00:31:45.181
This is what I think about constantly.

00:31:45.641 --> 00:31:47.651
But I can't really phrase
it because I'm too young.

00:31:47.681 --> 00:31:48.851
But this is, this is on.

00:31:48.971 --> 00:31:49.031
Why

00:31:49.031 --> 00:31:50.141
Rupert Isaacson: would
that have mattered to you?

00:31:50.531 --> 00:31:52.121
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I have no idea.

00:31:52.781 --> 00:31:55.061
But it did, I mean, it was
a matter of life and death.

00:31:55.061 --> 00:31:56.441
I could not stop thinking about it.

00:31:56.891 --> 00:31:58.211
And, and I still find it fascinating.

00:31:58.871 --> 00:32:01.721
Rupert Isaacson: Did you ask your dad, did
you ask those adults around you because

00:32:02.231 --> 00:32:05.711
they seem to have been the people who
would've also thought of such questions?

00:32:06.291 --> 00:32:06.591
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:32:06.591 --> 00:32:08.511
Maybe we did, did discuss some of it.

00:32:08.511 --> 00:32:09.081
I don't know.

00:32:09.081 --> 00:32:14.631
But what I do remember is this
constant thought and finally

00:32:14.631 --> 00:32:17.991
coming to the conclusion that
maybe the universe is expanding.

00:32:18.561 --> 00:32:22.791
I think I came to that conclusion
because that was the easier for my mind.

00:32:23.601 --> 00:32:24.321
So I.

00:32:24.756 --> 00:32:30.356
If it was expanding, it would have an
edge because otherwise there wouldn't be

00:32:30.356 --> 00:32:32.006
a sort of something that would expand.

00:32:32.066 --> 00:32:32.516
Expand.

00:32:33.626 --> 00:32:39.116
And if you come to the edge, if you come
to the edge, how can you get past the

00:32:39.116 --> 00:32:42.536
edge and remain aware of that happening?

00:32:43.736 --> 00:32:49.856
How can you cross the boundary into what
is non-existent and still exist beyond it?

00:32:50.816 --> 00:32:55.916
And then I, I would go to that
point and then I would sit and tell

00:32:55.916 --> 00:33:01.956
myself the word eternity, eternity,
eternity, until I got so dizzy and,

00:33:01.956 --> 00:33:04.236
and would hyperventilate and panic.

00:33:04.266 --> 00:33:09.936
And then I, and then I had this
pile of Donald Duck magazines.

00:33:10.716 --> 00:33:12.606
'cause I learned to read
when I was really young.

00:33:12.906 --> 00:33:14.196
Sort of, I remember sort of instant.

00:33:14.261 --> 00:33:14.551
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

00:33:14.706 --> 00:33:15.066
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah, yeah.

00:33:15.346 --> 00:33:19.331
And, and I would turn on the light,
look at Donald Duck for some reason.

00:33:19.331 --> 00:33:19.991
Donald Duck.

00:33:20.081 --> 00:33:23.981
My mind would calm down and, and, and
understand exactly what I was looking at.

00:33:24.341 --> 00:33:26.591
Then I would close the lamp and
I would start all over again.

00:33:27.821 --> 00:33:31.031
And I would've nightmares
and, and, and scream and cry.

00:33:31.031 --> 00:33:37.061
And, but I could not, I was
so drawn to, to that Okay.

00:33:37.151 --> 00:33:43.451
Sort of far end of the, of, of what
was still accessible to my mind.

00:33:43.661 --> 00:33:44.021
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

00:33:45.461 --> 00:33:50.311
Emelie Cajsdotter: And I still is yes,
I'm still extremely fascinated of what

00:33:50.311 --> 00:33:57.961
happens when we expand ourselves beyond
what is possible for the, for the mind.

00:33:57.961 --> 00:34:03.061
I st I still find that very fascinating,
but maybe not to this or maybe

00:34:03.061 --> 00:34:04.471
I still do get anxiety from it.

00:34:04.471 --> 00:34:07.201
I don't know actually, but
I did when I was young.

00:34:07.711 --> 00:34:09.181
So that was before he died.

00:34:09.181 --> 00:34:12.301
You would think that you would have all
these existential thoughts because you

00:34:12.301 --> 00:34:16.471
experience death, but that started before.

00:34:18.871 --> 00:34:19.171
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:34:19.651 --> 00:34:26.011
So you are dealing with the idea of the
limits of consciousness very, very young.

00:34:26.911 --> 00:34:28.711
Then your father does die.

00:34:29.161 --> 00:34:29.221
Yeah.

00:34:29.221 --> 00:34:32.041
Can you take us through the rest
of your childhood now go into

00:34:32.041 --> 00:34:34.561
your childhood, into adolescence.

00:34:34.591 --> 00:34:35.761
Take us on that journey.

00:34:38.221 --> 00:34:43.891
Emelie Cajsdotter: After my
father died, I, I had a real fear.

00:34:43.951 --> 00:34:44.371
I mean.

00:34:45.151 --> 00:34:48.931
Existential anxiety is something
because you choose it somehow.

00:34:48.931 --> 00:34:52.801
But this was real fear because I knew
that I was left with my mother, whom

00:34:52.861 --> 00:34:58.991
I was terrified of because she really
had these temper tantrums and fits

00:34:58.991 --> 00:35:00.581
that was completely unpredictable.

00:35:00.611 --> 00:35:00.641
Okay.

00:35:02.331 --> 00:35:08.301
So I was really really afraid of
being home, of going home alone.

00:35:09.201 --> 00:35:15.951
And because I grew up in this neighborhood
where it was this sort of high rise

00:35:15.951 --> 00:35:19.401
buildings is usually for people who
for some reason don't have a lot

00:35:19.401 --> 00:35:21.951
of money or they have other issues.

00:35:21.951 --> 00:35:24.231
So there would be quite a lot
of alcoholics and drug addicts

00:35:24.231 --> 00:35:25.221
and other broken families.

00:35:25.221 --> 00:35:25.341
Even

00:35:25.341 --> 00:35:27.561
Rupert Isaacson: though your dad had a
good job at the university and so on.

00:35:27.786 --> 00:35:27.986
Yeah.

00:35:28.251 --> 00:35:28.521
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

00:35:29.151 --> 00:35:31.281
Rupert Isaacson: Could he have
afforded something different or,

00:35:31.611 --> 00:35:32.361
Emelie Cajsdotter: I don't know.

00:35:32.751 --> 00:35:32.871
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:35:33.501 --> 00:35:34.461
Emelie Cajsdotter: Interesting questions

00:35:34.521 --> 00:35:34.941
Rupert Isaacson: because yeah.

00:35:34.941 --> 00:35:39.411
You associate university professors with
living in nicer neighborhoods and things

00:35:39.411 --> 00:35:39.686
Emelie Cajsdotter: like that.

00:35:39.686 --> 00:35:40.006
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

00:35:40.116 --> 00:35:40.406
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

00:35:41.566 --> 00:35:41.856
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:35:42.081 --> 00:35:43.371
That was never explained to you?

00:35:43.791 --> 00:35:43.851
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

00:35:44.241 --> 00:35:44.511
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:35:44.676 --> 00:35:45.351
But okay.

00:35:45.351 --> 00:35:47.721
You're in a slightly
depressed neighborhood and

00:35:47.771 --> 00:35:48.371
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

00:35:48.431 --> 00:35:52.511
Which means that there are lots
of other kids with broken homes.

00:35:52.571 --> 00:35:52.841
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:35:52.891 --> 00:35:56.941
Emelie Cajsdotter: And we find each other
and form some sort of family of our own.

00:35:58.781 --> 00:36:01.371
So, that I would say was quite helpful.

00:36:02.681 --> 00:36:02.971
Okay.

00:36:03.696 --> 00:36:06.936
And I could explain to them that
I don't dare to go home by myself.

00:36:06.936 --> 00:36:10.176
My mother threatened to kill herself and
because to me that was a real threat.

00:36:10.176 --> 00:36:10.896
It could happen.

00:36:11.041 --> 00:36:11.331
Yeah.

00:36:11.616 --> 00:36:14.586
I didn't want to find her dead, so I
made sure I always had a friend coming

00:36:14.586 --> 00:36:16.446
with me if I was going home after school.

00:36:17.046 --> 00:36:17.436
Okay.

00:36:17.636 --> 00:36:21.386
And from the age of seven, I
started to ride in a riding school.

00:36:22.496 --> 00:36:23.696
Rupert Isaacson: Why, how did that happen?

00:36:24.146 --> 00:36:26.696
Emelie Cajsdotter: I just
wanted to be near animals.

00:36:27.236 --> 00:36:29.591
I always wanted to be
near animals, but my why

00:36:29.591 --> 00:36:29.791
Rupert Isaacson: riding?

00:36:29.876 --> 00:36:30.416
Why ponies?

00:36:30.416 --> 00:36:31.016
Why horses?

00:36:31.016 --> 00:36:31.556
Why not dogs?

00:36:32.066 --> 00:36:33.596
Emelie Cajsdotter: I didn't
really care about riding.

00:36:33.596 --> 00:36:35.366
It was just a pool.

00:36:35.621 --> 00:36:35.911
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:36:37.586 --> 00:36:38.876
And who organized that for you?

00:36:39.966 --> 00:36:41.466
Emelie Cajsdotter: I think
it was my grandmother.

00:36:41.856 --> 00:36:42.126
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:36:44.396 --> 00:36:46.211
Emelie Cajsdotter: She was behind
a lot of those sort of doesn't,

00:36:46.211 --> 00:36:46.331
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:36:46.331 --> 00:36:48.536
It doesn't sound like a decision
your mom would've made at that

00:36:48.536 --> 00:36:48.746
Emelie Cajsdotter: point.

00:36:48.956 --> 00:36:49.286
No.

00:36:49.291 --> 00:36:49.301
No.

00:36:49.616 --> 00:36:49.826
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:36:50.436 --> 00:36:52.656
Emelie Cajsdotter: And because
we're in the city and the stable

00:36:52.656 --> 00:36:54.216
is in the city, so I cycle there.

00:36:54.246 --> 00:36:56.916
So I cycle to the stable almost every day.

00:36:57.456 --> 00:37:02.886
And I'm with a friend in another high
rise building and her mother is working

00:37:02.886 --> 00:37:04.806
as a, she doesn't know who her father is.

00:37:05.266 --> 00:37:06.796
So she lives alone with her mother.

00:37:06.796 --> 00:37:13.246
And her mother is a waitress in a bar that
at that time started to have drag shows.

00:37:13.246 --> 00:37:14.836
And this was new in the time.

00:37:14.836 --> 00:37:14.926
Right.

00:37:16.121 --> 00:37:19.271
And I, I still love drag shows after this.

00:37:19.751 --> 00:37:19.811
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:37:19.816 --> 00:37:20.226
How can you not?

00:37:21.401 --> 00:37:21.791
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:37:21.851 --> 00:37:22.961
Rupert Isaacson: He doesn't
love a good drag show.

00:37:23.021 --> 00:37:23.351
Much of

00:37:23.351 --> 00:37:24.131
Emelie Cajsdotter: everything, right?

00:37:24.131 --> 00:37:24.281
Yeah,

00:37:24.281 --> 00:37:24.881
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.

00:37:25.971 --> 00:37:26.436
Emelie Cajsdotter: But anyway, joy.

00:37:26.481 --> 00:37:26.691
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:37:27.051 --> 00:37:32.151
As you know, if you followed any of
my work, I'm an autism dad and we have

00:37:32.151 --> 00:37:38.711
a whole career before this podcast in
helping people with neurodivergence,

00:37:39.391 --> 00:37:41.611
either who are professionals in the field.

00:37:41.691 --> 00:37:42.531
Are you a therapist?

00:37:42.951 --> 00:37:44.221
Are you a caregiver?

00:37:44.611 --> 00:37:45.621
Are you a parent?

00:37:46.056 --> 00:37:48.086
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

00:37:49.526 --> 00:37:54.466
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

00:37:54.506 --> 00:37:56.136
I really didn't know what to do.

00:37:56.336 --> 00:38:01.606
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

00:38:01.646 --> 00:38:04.446
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

00:38:04.596 --> 00:38:05.486
Temple Grandin.

00:38:05.686 --> 00:38:07.326
And she told me what to do.

00:38:07.376 --> 00:38:11.616
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

00:38:11.966 --> 00:38:16.416
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

00:38:16.676 --> 00:38:20.426
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

00:38:20.766 --> 00:38:24.666
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

00:38:25.696 --> 00:38:30.136
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

00:38:30.356 --> 00:38:32.396
approach, it's called Movement Method.

00:38:33.056 --> 00:38:36.413
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

00:38:36.413 --> 00:38:38.676
It's almost laughably simple.

00:38:39.616 --> 00:38:42.316
The important thing is to begin.

00:38:43.246 --> 00:38:46.396
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

00:38:46.396 --> 00:38:49.686
Grandin and see what results can follow.

00:38:50.716 --> 00:38:53.646
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

00:38:55.916 --> 00:38:58.421
com Sign up as a gold member.

00:38:58.861 --> 00:39:01.751
Take the online movement method course.

00:39:02.241 --> 00:39:03.611
It's in 40 countries.

00:39:04.221 --> 00:39:06.281
Let us know how it goes for you.

00:39:06.481 --> 00:39:07.251
We really want to know.

00:39:07.261 --> 00:39:11.761
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

00:39:12.111 --> 00:39:15.391
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

00:39:16.381 --> 00:39:18.601
Emelie Cajsdotter: Since I couldn't
really go home most of the time

00:39:18.661 --> 00:39:22.286
and she didn't have a father and
she was working nights, um mm-hmm.

00:39:22.831 --> 00:39:27.031
My friend's mother would take both my
friend and me with her to her work.

00:39:28.441 --> 00:39:28.471
Ah.

00:39:28.471 --> 00:39:33.481
So we would hide behind this huge velvet,
courteous and look at these big guys when

00:39:33.481 --> 00:39:36.151
they were putting on loose tits and Yeah.

00:39:36.301 --> 00:39:39.661
Makeup and glittery dresses and yeah.

00:39:40.021 --> 00:39:40.566
I, I, I love that.

00:39:40.861 --> 00:39:43.021
I still love the feeling of
sort of, because we knew that we

00:39:43.021 --> 00:39:44.371
were a bit too young to be there

00:39:44.376 --> 00:39:46.321
Rupert Isaacson:
shapeshifting and role play.

00:39:46.326 --> 00:39:46.406
Yes.

00:39:47.701 --> 00:39:48.031
Interesting.

00:39:48.031 --> 00:39:48.121
Yes, yes.

00:39:48.121 --> 00:39:50.101
That shamanic process of transformation.

00:39:50.131 --> 00:39:50.281
Yes.

00:39:50.406 --> 00:39:51.486
Emelie Cajsdotter: And I loved it.

00:39:51.786 --> 00:39:52.206
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:39:52.921 --> 00:39:55.711
Emelie Cajsdotter: And there was some,
there was something in there and they

00:39:55.711 --> 00:40:00.991
were happy and they were friendly and
and sort of courageous in their own way.

00:40:01.021 --> 00:40:01.201
Yeah.

00:40:01.261 --> 00:40:02.521
Rupert Isaacson:
Non-judgmental, absolutely.

00:40:02.521 --> 00:40:03.601
Supportive of each other.

00:40:03.601 --> 00:40:03.661
It

00:40:04.201 --> 00:40:04.711
Emelie Cajsdotter: was amazing.

00:40:04.711 --> 00:40:07.531
I didn't know that that world existed.

00:40:07.771 --> 00:40:09.151
Rupert Isaacson: How old
are you now at this point?

00:40:09.641 --> 00:40:12.161
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm probably
like 7, 8, 9 years old.

00:40:12.191 --> 00:40:12.521
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:40:13.001 --> 00:40:13.466
Emelie Cajsdotter: That sort of thing.

00:40:13.526 --> 00:40:15.941
Rupert Isaacson: And you, you
found you're cycling to a.

00:40:16.646 --> 00:40:18.446
When you're not going to drag
shows and at school you are, you're

00:40:19.721 --> 00:40:19.941
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:40:20.331 --> 00:40:22.261
Drag shows or, and writing school

00:40:23.276 --> 00:40:25.046
Rupert Isaacson: brings, brings
drag hunting the idea of drag.

00:40:26.846 --> 00:40:27.086
Yeah.

00:40:27.086 --> 00:40:27.146
Yeah.

00:40:27.446 --> 00:40:32.901
And when you are exposed to the ponies
at this point, are you talking to them?

00:40:33.051 --> 00:40:33.831
Are they talking to you?

00:40:33.831 --> 00:40:34.701
Or does this come later?

00:40:34.701 --> 00:40:34.791
Well,

00:40:34.941 --> 00:40:40.156
Emelie Cajsdotter: this, this
begins this begins I to begin.

00:40:40.156 --> 00:40:40.396
Do you

00:40:40.556 --> 00:40:41.401
Rupert Isaacson: remember the first time?

00:40:41.491 --> 00:40:42.331
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, definitely.

00:40:42.381 --> 00:40:42.701
Please,

00:40:42.866 --> 00:40:43.496
Rupert Isaacson: please tell us.

00:40:43.676 --> 00:40:44.186
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:40:44.936 --> 00:40:50.156
This is a riding school that
is an image of civilization.

00:40:50.516 --> 00:40:52.286
This is in the middle of the city.

00:40:52.826 --> 00:40:55.286
All the horses are tied up in stalls.

00:40:55.286 --> 00:40:56.816
There are almost no fields.

00:40:57.726 --> 00:41:00.696
They're in a very traditional regime.

00:41:00.906 --> 00:41:04.986
This riding school has changed now to
something totally different, but back

00:41:04.986 --> 00:41:08.266
then a regime that is based on obedience.

00:41:08.686 --> 00:41:08.926
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:41:09.076 --> 00:41:12.106
Emelie Cajsdotter: Like you do as you're
told, or you will be sold or killed.

00:41:12.946 --> 00:41:13.456
Yeah.

00:41:13.496 --> 00:41:18.866
And, and the horses that come naturally,
they come to this riding school with

00:41:18.866 --> 00:41:22.556
quite a lot of energy or vital force,
although a lot of them come through

00:41:23.126 --> 00:41:26.816
horse tradesmen and they've had a
troublesome past before they end.

00:41:26.846 --> 00:41:27.716
Well, you know how it is.

00:41:28.046 --> 00:41:28.346
Rupert Isaacson: I do.

00:41:28.656 --> 00:41:32.496
Emelie Cajsdotter: And then they
get broken down quite quickly.

00:41:32.526 --> 00:41:35.646
You, you see how they
start with this natural.

00:41:36.476 --> 00:41:41.296
Playfulness taking initiative,
making contact, all of these things.

00:41:41.296 --> 00:41:45.076
And you see that fall off them as
they stay on this writing school.

00:41:46.196 --> 00:41:50.426
And then eventually they will develop
some sort of physical lameness or

00:41:50.426 --> 00:41:54.576
other issue, or they will become really
aggressive and then they're gone.

00:41:55.116 --> 00:41:55.296
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:41:56.086 --> 00:41:57.676
Emelie Cajsdotter: This
was, this was the situation.

00:41:57.676 --> 00:42:03.706
And so one day this pony comes to this
writing school and she's small pony, a

00:42:03.706 --> 00:42:07.006
chestnut mare, really, really aggressive.

00:42:08.146 --> 00:42:13.266
And in the world of linear
hierarchy it's very important.

00:42:13.266 --> 00:42:13.896
Who's the boss?

00:42:13.896 --> 00:42:15.546
The whole idea is about that.

00:42:16.236 --> 00:42:22.666
So a horse that makes you frightened
needs to know whose boss basically,

00:42:22.666 --> 00:42:28.216
so to deal with her aggression,
she's met with more aggression.

00:42:28.216 --> 00:42:28.306
Sure.

00:42:29.686 --> 00:42:33.016
And usually that will
make one part give up.

00:42:33.886 --> 00:42:38.596
And usually that part is the horse
because they have a very bad starting

00:42:38.596 --> 00:42:41.596
point because they were slave in
the slave trade to begin with.

00:42:42.886 --> 00:42:44.746
So, but this pony doesn't give up.

00:42:44.926 --> 00:42:48.706
She attacks back and
she really attacks back.

00:42:48.736 --> 00:42:53.566
And if people keep beating her to the
point that she's not attacking back

00:42:53.566 --> 00:42:56.386
anymore, she just freezes and waits.

00:42:56.836 --> 00:43:01.606
She never submits, she never
shows any sign of submission.

00:43:02.026 --> 00:43:05.566
So then people start to, and this
is the writing school teachers, they

00:43:05.566 --> 00:43:06.976
start to try to give her sweetss.

00:43:07.426 --> 00:43:10.606
This is around the time when, when
horses were given sugar cubes.

00:43:11.446 --> 00:43:15.456
So they would put out their hands and
give her sugar cubes and she would

00:43:15.666 --> 00:43:21.306
bite the hand, refuse the sugar cube,
making a statement of that and leaving.

00:43:22.626 --> 00:43:26.706
So this horse begins
to really fascinate me.

00:43:27.816 --> 00:43:32.736
Because for me, yes, I do have a
good time at the drag shows and

00:43:32.736 --> 00:43:39.816
I love being with my friends, but
inside this, I am, I am breaking,

00:43:41.256 --> 00:43:43.206
because I'm terrified of my mother.

00:43:43.206 --> 00:43:45.006
I'm terrified of being home.

00:43:45.516 --> 00:43:48.966
I feel no sense of value whatsoever.

00:43:48.966 --> 00:43:53.796
I have this unnameable grief over my
father that I can't understand or phrase.

00:43:54.366 --> 00:43:57.366
I anyway have all these existential
thoughts that can't stop

00:43:57.366 --> 00:44:01.866
because my mind is racing just
like on all my ancestry lines.

00:44:01.866 --> 00:44:04.116
So it's very hard to be me.

00:44:05.126 --> 00:44:05.786
So

00:44:08.306 --> 00:44:11.936
I'm beginning to, I would
say, lose myself at this time.

00:44:12.101 --> 00:44:12.521
Mm-hmm.

00:44:12.656 --> 00:44:18.866
And I also begin to feel that
may be dying is the only way out.

00:44:19.316 --> 00:44:21.356
'cause I know that dying is a way out.

00:44:21.596 --> 00:44:22.406
It's present.

00:44:22.406 --> 00:44:22.407
Yeah,

00:44:23.486 --> 00:44:23.817
Rupert Isaacson: you've observed it.

00:44:23.817 --> 00:44:23.818
Yeah.

00:44:23.818 --> 00:44:23.819
Yeah.

00:44:24.236 --> 00:44:29.576
Emelie Cajsdotter: So, and
I'm not really afraid of that.

00:44:31.266 --> 00:44:36.936
As much as I have no bloody clue
how to live in this society.

00:44:38.106 --> 00:44:42.816
So when I see this pony who
obviously is impossible to break

00:44:42.816 --> 00:44:44.706
down, it makes me very curious.

00:44:44.706 --> 00:44:46.956
What, what is her strength?

00:44:47.016 --> 00:44:49.056
What is her motivation?

00:44:49.086 --> 00:44:53.466
Why, why is she, because for
most of us, it's like the lack

00:44:53.466 --> 00:44:55.026
of punishment becomes the reward.

00:44:55.026 --> 00:44:55.641
Is that Sure.

00:44:55.721 --> 00:44:55.956
Is she all

00:44:55.956 --> 00:44:57.276
Rupert Isaacson: right
with a child on her back?

00:44:57.276 --> 00:44:58.441
Like it does she, that's

00:44:58.441 --> 00:44:59.676
Emelie Cajsdotter: what
throw She throws them off.

00:44:59.796 --> 00:45:00.456
Rupert Isaacson: She throws them off.

00:45:00.486 --> 00:45:00.876
Okay.

00:45:00.876 --> 00:45:04.506
So, and 'cause that was gonna be my
question too, about some of these ponies

00:45:04.506 --> 00:45:08.046
that come, okay, they're not having a nice
time in the writing school, but do they.

00:45:08.661 --> 00:45:11.991
Enjoy to some degree the relationship
with the children that come.

00:45:13.021 --> 00:45:14.146
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm sure some do.

00:45:14.146 --> 00:45:14.466
Mm-hmm.

00:45:14.546 --> 00:45:19.751
I mean, some horses that I meet in riding
schools now and, and I definitely would

00:45:19.751 --> 00:45:24.581
say that there are riding schools doing
a fabulous job of merging these worlds.

00:45:24.791 --> 00:45:25.091
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:45:25.281 --> 00:45:29.061
Emelie Cajsdotter: And when I meet riding
school horses that are really content

00:45:29.061 --> 00:45:33.741
in the setting, they're in, I would
say they always describe that they have

00:45:33.741 --> 00:45:38.361
this group of students that they really
relate to and they feel that they totally

00:45:38.361 --> 00:45:41.361
matter in how these individuals evolve.

00:45:41.811 --> 00:45:42.141
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:45:42.231 --> 00:45:43.551
Would be very similar.

00:45:43.556 --> 00:45:43.646
Exactly.

00:45:44.036 --> 00:45:44.886
They're generous.

00:45:45.436 --> 00:45:45.726
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

00:45:45.796 --> 00:45:46.486
They're generous.

00:45:46.486 --> 00:45:46.686
Okay.

00:45:46.686 --> 00:45:48.171
Rupert Isaacson: But this is
not the case with this pony.

00:45:48.261 --> 00:45:48.651
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

00:45:48.861 --> 00:45:52.191
And this is not the case, the way
that place is being run at that time.

00:45:53.211 --> 00:45:55.701
Rupert Isaacson: So you become
fascinated with this pony.

00:45:56.211 --> 00:45:56.601
What Then

00:45:56.751 --> 00:45:59.271
Emelie Cajsdotter: I become
fascinated because what is it that

00:45:59.271 --> 00:46:00.921
she has that nobody else have?

00:46:01.161 --> 00:46:01.641
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:46:01.671 --> 00:46:05.001
Emelie Cajsdotter: How, how,
why is she not breaking down and

00:46:05.301 --> 00:46:06.981
how can she be so courageous?

00:46:06.986 --> 00:46:07.286
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:46:07.611 --> 00:46:07.881
Mm-hmm.

00:46:08.001 --> 00:46:10.731
' Emelie Cajsdotter: cause she knows that
she's going to be bitten and treated

00:46:10.731 --> 00:46:16.881
horribly, but somehow for her, it's
worth it rather than losing herself.

00:46:16.881 --> 00:46:17.781
Mm-hmm.

00:46:17.782 --> 00:46:17.783
So.

00:46:18.201 --> 00:46:20.841
Why does she like picks this, this fight?

00:46:21.861 --> 00:46:21.951
Mm-hmm.

00:46:22.151 --> 00:46:26.411
So I go down to her stable
and I don't dare to go in

00:46:26.411 --> 00:46:27.761
because they're tied in stalls.

00:46:27.761 --> 00:46:31.451
And what she does is that she looks at
these people with her ears forward, and

00:46:31.451 --> 00:46:35.081
then when they go in, she kicks them
into the wall and don't let them out.

00:46:35.261 --> 00:46:38.261
And sometimes she bites people's
stomachs and she don't let go.

00:46:38.741 --> 00:46:41.051
And, and I've seen that happen
and they sort of scream and many

00:46:41.051 --> 00:46:43.211
people have to go in and take them
out and it's quite terrifying.

00:46:44.111 --> 00:46:50.381
So I don't dare to go in, but I'm
totally fascinated and I think that

00:46:50.381 --> 00:46:58.771
this original genuine fascination
without an agenda might be one of

00:46:58.861 --> 00:47:00.781
the keys to what's gonna happen next.

00:47:01.951 --> 00:47:07.381
Because basically my question
to her is, who are you?

00:47:08.401 --> 00:47:10.351
It's not, can you please change?

00:47:10.351 --> 00:47:11.581
Why are you doing this?

00:47:11.611 --> 00:47:12.691
Why can't you behave?

00:47:13.141 --> 00:47:15.991
It's who I really want to know who she is.

00:47:16.771 --> 00:47:21.511
And now when the horse is here
years later, have started a school

00:47:21.631 --> 00:47:25.741
in empathic into being for humans,
this is the question that we work

00:47:25.741 --> 00:47:32.401
with the most, the curiosity to
really meet the essence of another

00:47:32.401 --> 00:47:36.091
living, being without any other want.

00:47:37.021 --> 00:47:40.261
Not because I want something of
you, not because I want it to lead

00:47:40.261 --> 00:47:42.871
to anywhere, just because I want.

00:47:43.201 --> 00:47:45.781
To be where, where you are somehow.

00:47:47.341 --> 00:47:50.671
So this is what I feel when I
stand outside of her stable.

00:47:51.811 --> 00:47:59.401
And then something happens
that I would say is grace.

00:47:59.521 --> 00:48:05.251
And, and maybe because I
was so ready to give up.

00:48:06.091 --> 00:48:10.921
I mean, I wanted to die anyway, so
I don't really have a lot to lose

00:48:10.951 --> 00:48:17.831
in having my image of the world
torn down as I probably would have

00:48:17.861 --> 00:48:19.781
if I was in a really good place.

00:48:22.091 --> 00:48:27.341
Because what happens is that this
invisible plexiglass wall that is

00:48:27.341 --> 00:48:33.761
usually between each one of us in this
type of society, meaning that I can see

00:48:33.761 --> 00:48:39.371
you and I can relate to you, I can hear
what you're saying, and I can to some

00:48:39.371 --> 00:48:42.611
extent, through my biological design.

00:48:42.981 --> 00:48:45.681
Also I do have mirror neurons.

00:48:45.681 --> 00:48:50.541
So if you were sad, I would be sad, but
I wouldn't know what it's like to be you.

00:48:50.991 --> 00:48:56.541
It would always be how I feel when
something happens to you and how I

00:48:56.541 --> 00:49:01.251
interpret what happens to me when
something happens to you, right?

00:49:02.141 --> 00:49:06.101
In this case, this,
this rule is taken off.

00:49:06.941 --> 00:49:07.721
So.

00:49:08.156 --> 00:49:15.146
Instantly and without any
warning or preparation, I know

00:49:15.146 --> 00:49:17.246
exactly how it is to be her.

00:49:19.466 --> 00:49:23.216
It doesn't mean that I
forget that I'm also Emily.

00:49:24.056 --> 00:49:29.606
I know that I'm standing on the stable
floor and, and observing her, but so

00:49:29.606 --> 00:49:35.096
I know what is me and I know what is
her, but all of a sudden I'm in her

00:49:35.096 --> 00:49:37.406
and I'm also in her observing me.

00:49:38.096 --> 00:49:44.606
So it's like I do feel exactly
how it is to be her, but she also

00:49:44.606 --> 00:49:46.496
feels exactly how it is to be me.

00:49:47.366 --> 00:49:52.076
And all of these things are
happening simultaneously without

00:49:52.136 --> 00:49:55.286
any stress of comprehending
all of that at the same time.

00:49:56.156 --> 00:49:58.856
But what I do find, and
I'm 11 at this time.

00:49:59.456 --> 00:50:01.256
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:50:01.286 --> 00:50:06.146
Emelie Cajsdotter: What is frightening
to me is that all of a sudden, my

00:50:06.146 --> 00:50:12.056
entire foundation of how I've built,
my way of looking at reality is gone.

00:50:12.476 --> 00:50:17.516
It literally feels like someone
pulls the carpet and you're standing

00:50:17.516 --> 00:50:18.836
on a completely different floor.

00:50:19.586 --> 00:50:28.976
And what is inside of her is this
intense sadness and feeling of

00:50:28.976 --> 00:50:31.196
being completely misunderstood.

00:50:32.066 --> 00:50:37.286
And regardless of how high you
scream and how strongly you

00:50:37.286 --> 00:50:39.986
express yourself, no one hears you.

00:50:40.891 --> 00:50:44.666
It, it, it, it's, it's like
screaming inside of, you know, one

00:50:44.666 --> 00:50:50.196
of those little boxes that has is
soundproof so nothing comes out.

00:50:50.706 --> 00:50:58.246
And that sense of extreme powerlessness
was really overwhelming to me.

00:50:59.326 --> 00:51:05.086
Now, when her feeling of extreme
powerlessness hits me, it hits me in a

00:51:05.086 --> 00:51:08.056
spot where I am forced to see myself.

00:51:09.226 --> 00:51:14.746
Because if I, if I am completely
experiencing you, I also have to have

00:51:14.746 --> 00:51:20.656
this complete honesty in experiencing
me, because now I'm being seen with

00:51:20.656 --> 00:51:23.686
the same eyes from, from the other one.

00:51:23.686 --> 00:51:24.256
Mm-hmm.

00:51:24.616 --> 00:51:33.026
So I'm also faced with my own inner
state unmasked my own desperation

00:51:33.186 --> 00:51:36.096
feeling of never fitting in and
not knowing how to live this life.

00:51:36.156 --> 00:51:39.066
All of this is coming crashing
in at exactly the same time.

00:51:40.176 --> 00:51:45.116
And, and I, I realized what is what
you would think that there is a

00:51:45.476 --> 00:51:49.136
emerging, but it isn't because that
will be a projection and this is not

00:51:50.366 --> 00:51:55.286
so, and then she has this image of.

00:51:56.636 --> 00:51:59.306
A big barn type building.

00:51:59.306 --> 00:52:03.206
And I would never know if this building
existed for real or if it is symbolic.

00:52:03.206 --> 00:52:04.076
I can't tell.

00:52:04.586 --> 00:52:08.366
But there is an image of a
barn and a low wooden door.

00:52:08.366 --> 00:52:11.846
I would say that any old Swedish
wooden barn could look a bit like that.

00:52:12.806 --> 00:52:18.206
And in this image, she is being forced
to go in through this small narrow

00:52:18.206 --> 00:52:23.756
door with some sort of whip or cane,
or there is something long and narrow

00:52:24.686 --> 00:52:31.256
and the feeling is to refuse to go
into something that will diminish you.

00:52:33.366 --> 00:52:36.876
And, and I'll never forget that
feeling for as long as I live.

00:52:36.876 --> 00:52:39.996
I think which answered my question.

00:52:40.056 --> 00:52:41.556
Who, who are you?

00:52:41.856 --> 00:52:43.026
Why are you so strong?

00:52:43.026 --> 00:52:44.136
Well, this is her strength.

00:52:44.736 --> 00:52:49.056
She refuses to adapt
herself to a destructive

00:52:49.056 --> 00:52:50.856
circumstance, and she never did

00:52:51.846 --> 00:52:52.951
Rupert Isaacson: what
happened to her in the end.

00:52:53.646 --> 00:52:56.646
Emelie Cajsdotter: What happened to
her in the end was that she got COPD,

00:52:56.676 --> 00:53:02.196
which is chronic obstructive pulmonary
disease and was going to be put down.

00:53:03.346 --> 00:53:07.846
My grandmother realized that if this pony
dies, maybe so will my granddaughter.

00:53:07.876 --> 00:53:08.401
So, okay.

00:53:08.401 --> 00:53:10.276
Rupert Isaacson: So you build
a relationship with this pony?

00:53:10.396 --> 00:53:10.816
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:53:10.876 --> 00:53:11.386
Yes.

00:53:11.386 --> 00:53:15.316
Because after this event, this,
this happened, I don't know

00:53:15.316 --> 00:53:16.336
for how long this went on.

00:53:16.336 --> 00:53:19.396
Probably not very long in
linear time, is my guess.

00:53:20.056 --> 00:53:22.006
Not that anyone on the
outside would notice.

00:53:22.006 --> 00:53:25.336
You would just see a girl standing
in a stable and a horse eating hay.

00:53:25.396 --> 00:53:25.666
Right.

00:53:26.836 --> 00:53:29.236
And it's completely life altering forever.

00:53:29.476 --> 00:53:39.256
And, and I realized that there is another
way I realized that there is something,

00:53:39.286 --> 00:53:41.926
there is a way outta this isolation.

00:53:43.036 --> 00:53:44.626
Rupert Isaacson: You go and
tell your grandmother this,

00:53:44.816 --> 00:53:45.236
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:53:45.746 --> 00:53:46.376
Rupert Isaacson: Immediately.

00:53:46.626 --> 00:53:49.356
Emelie Cajsdotter: Not immediately,
I think, but at some point

00:53:49.566 --> 00:53:50.136
Rupert Isaacson: soon-ish.

00:53:50.436 --> 00:53:51.096
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:53:51.186 --> 00:53:52.957
Rupert Isaacson: Say, Hey granny,
I've had this kind of Yes, yes.

00:53:52.957 --> 00:53:53.181
And that

00:53:54.181 --> 00:53:54.741
Emelie Cajsdotter: I feel this.

00:53:54.966 --> 00:53:55.386
Exactly.

00:53:55.386 --> 00:53:58.086
And then she would say, oh,
well that's normal, and continue

00:53:58.086 --> 00:53:58.986
with whatever she's doing.

00:53:59.051 --> 00:53:59.341
Okay.

00:54:00.971 --> 00:54:02.221
Usually what motor?

00:54:03.276 --> 00:54:03.306
Okay,

00:54:03.306 --> 00:54:05.886
Rupert Isaacson: so, so the, the
horse develops a chronic ailment.

00:54:06.006 --> 00:54:07.206
It's heading for a bullet job.

00:54:07.596 --> 00:54:07.806
Probably.

00:54:08.961 --> 00:54:10.386
Emelie Cajsdotter: I, I become her groom.

00:54:10.386 --> 00:54:11.736
You know how it is in writing schools?

00:54:11.826 --> 00:54:12.066
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:54:12.426 --> 00:54:17.076
Emelie Cajsdotter: I realized that this
pony holds a key and in my Presumably she

00:54:17.076 --> 00:54:19.026
Rupert Isaacson: doesn't pin you
against the wall and rip your guts out.

00:54:19.026 --> 00:54:19.176
She

00:54:19.176 --> 00:54:19.536
Emelie Cajsdotter: does.

00:54:20.101 --> 00:54:20.441
She does.

00:54:20.441 --> 00:54:20.526
She does.

00:54:21.006 --> 00:54:21.606
Yes, she does.

00:54:21.606 --> 00:54:21.786
Every

00:54:21.786 --> 00:54:22.146
Rupert Isaacson: time.

00:54:22.396 --> 00:54:22.636
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

00:54:22.636 --> 00:54:23.206
Almost.

00:54:23.316 --> 00:54:26.896
This, this, this is also an
interesting part and an important part.

00:54:26.956 --> 00:54:27.796
Rupert Isaacson: How do you survive?

00:54:29.116 --> 00:54:30.076
Emelie Cajsdotter: Lots of bruises.

00:54:32.116 --> 00:54:39.196
She, I feel that she holds the key outta
this reality, so I can't let go of her.

00:54:40.036 --> 00:54:40.846
I understand that.

00:54:40.846 --> 00:54:44.926
What she shows me is that that key
is equally in me as it is in her.

00:54:44.926 --> 00:54:45.436
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:54:45.776 --> 00:54:50.246
Emelie Cajsdotter: But with my
linear mind, I need her to not

00:54:50.276 --> 00:54:52.346
lose myself is my beginning point.

00:54:52.406 --> 00:54:54.356
So I clinging on to this pony.

00:54:55.036 --> 00:54:58.156
And the way to do that is to be her groom.

00:54:58.156 --> 00:54:59.686
She hates being groomed.

00:55:00.586 --> 00:55:00.916
Okay.

00:55:00.916 --> 00:55:07.426
And I hang onto her like a drowning man
to, you know, this sort of life vest.

00:55:08.146 --> 00:55:10.306
And she begins to test me.

00:55:10.666 --> 00:55:14.446
And I think that from a linear
perspective, we tend to see

00:55:14.446 --> 00:55:16.636
testing as a, as a power game.

00:55:17.116 --> 00:55:20.836
Like you test someone until you know
who's boss and then that sorted.

00:55:21.466 --> 00:55:25.521
But what if the test is about who are you?

00:55:25.726 --> 00:55:27.646
Do you know at all what you're made of?

00:55:27.676 --> 00:55:28.906
What if that is the test?

00:55:29.626 --> 00:55:32.686
And it's not about power at
all, because if we remove the

00:55:32.686 --> 00:55:35.576
hierarchy it's good for everyone.

00:55:36.281 --> 00:55:41.891
Like literally everyone on the
planet that I am the sort of utmost

00:55:42.311 --> 00:55:47.951
honest, complete version of myself
because that is my gift to this life.

00:55:48.791 --> 00:55:51.941
And, and I'm broken and,
and, and I want to die.

00:55:51.941 --> 00:55:53.381
And I'm terrified of everything.

00:55:53.381 --> 00:55:55.181
And, and I'm not in a good state.

00:55:55.956 --> 00:55:56.376
Mm-hmm.

00:55:56.461 --> 00:55:58.451
So this pony doesn't want to be groomed.

00:55:58.451 --> 00:56:01.331
She doesn't want me to clinging
on for emotional support.

00:56:01.331 --> 00:56:03.041
She can't give any of that.

00:56:03.461 --> 00:56:04.361
She knows that.

00:56:04.361 --> 00:56:06.041
I have to find that in me.

00:56:07.061 --> 00:56:11.501
So she brings me to this difficult
test where most people sell their

00:56:11.501 --> 00:56:15.011
horses, which is the test of endurance.

00:56:16.361 --> 00:56:19.001
It's like, okay, so now you had
a glimpse of what's possible?

00:56:19.001 --> 00:56:20.741
Are you prepared to do the work?

00:56:22.301 --> 00:56:24.641
So am I trustworthy to her?

00:56:24.641 --> 00:56:26.441
Am I trustworthy to myself?

00:56:26.771 --> 00:56:28.601
How do I deal with fear?

00:56:28.941 --> 00:56:29.871
All of these things.

00:56:29.901 --> 00:56:31.671
I go to her stable every day.

00:56:31.671 --> 00:56:33.711
She bites and kicks me almost every day.

00:56:34.431 --> 00:56:41.391
And after a year and a half and, and I
begin to develop this love for her and I

00:56:41.391 --> 00:56:47.991
begin to realize that that sort of love
doesn't need any confirmation whatsoever.

00:56:49.191 --> 00:56:56.421
And after a year and a half, she puts her
muscle on my shoulder for two minutes.

00:56:57.081 --> 00:57:00.321
And I'll never forget that
either because I didn't.

00:57:00.816 --> 00:57:03.816
Go there every day for a year
and a half for her to do that.

00:57:05.496 --> 00:57:08.676
She, she never needed to
give me anything back.

00:57:09.516 --> 00:57:12.036
And that was extremely helpful.

00:57:12.036 --> 00:57:16.446
If, if I didn't go through those years
with her, I would never work with animals

00:57:16.446 --> 00:57:22.866
that has PTSD or go through these healing
processes that takes 5, 6, 7, 10 years.

00:57:23.636 --> 00:57:27.686
Maybe the first five without
any results that you could see.

00:57:29.696 --> 00:57:30.746
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.

00:57:30.746 --> 00:57:34.976
After she puts her muzzle on your,
on your shoulder, what, what happens

00:57:34.976 --> 00:57:38.516
then to her, to you, to you both

00:57:38.996 --> 00:57:40.586
Emelie Cajsdotter: Quite shortly
after that, she gets sick.

00:57:41.036 --> 00:57:41.426
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:57:41.876 --> 00:57:45.686
Emelie Cajsdotter: And you could
easily see how a horse would develop

00:57:46.016 --> 00:57:49.586
a lung disease in an environment
that is almost only indoors.

00:57:49.676 --> 00:57:50.261
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, totally.

00:57:50.541 --> 00:57:54.261
I mean, it's, it's a known
thing with overly stable horses.

00:57:54.371 --> 00:57:54.661
Yeah.

00:57:55.046 --> 00:57:59.636
Emelie Cajsdotter: And you could also
maybe add an element of Chinese medicine

00:57:59.636 --> 00:58:06.206
into the equation where lung diseases
is considered, in some cases relating

00:58:06.206 --> 00:58:09.506
to inherent fear and deep grief.

00:58:10.286 --> 00:58:10.616
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:58:12.096 --> 00:58:18.216
Emelie Cajsdotter: So, and what I saw
was also a horse that constantly fought

00:58:18.216 --> 00:58:20.856
for her integrity and she preserved that.

00:58:21.426 --> 00:58:21.516
Hmm.

00:58:21.846 --> 00:58:24.966
But that also means that during
all the time that you do that,

00:58:24.966 --> 00:58:26.226
because you're in a war I.

00:58:26.256 --> 00:58:26.316
Hmm.

00:58:27.126 --> 00:58:28.926
You don't do all these other things.

00:58:29.406 --> 00:58:29.676
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:58:29.681 --> 00:58:30.251
That's exhaust.

00:58:30.521 --> 00:58:30.811
Yeah.

00:58:31.446 --> 00:58:33.336
Emelie Cajsdotter: And, and
you don't live your life.

00:58:33.546 --> 00:58:33.786
Right.

00:58:34.116 --> 00:58:35.166
You don't thrive.

00:58:35.166 --> 00:58:38.476
You don't develop your
your qualities and talents.

00:58:38.476 --> 00:58:40.366
You don't make friends, you survive.

00:58:40.456 --> 00:58:46.306
You do every whatever it takes to
survive, but you emotionally depleted.

00:58:46.666 --> 00:58:46.816
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:58:47.506 --> 00:58:48.346
Emelie Cajsdotter: And exhausted.

00:58:48.676 --> 00:58:49.006
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:58:49.336 --> 00:58:52.246
Emelie Cajsdotter: So she's
going to be put down for this.

00:58:52.546 --> 00:58:52.696
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:58:53.296 --> 00:58:56.116
Emelie Cajsdotter: My grandmother
interferes and buys this horse,

00:58:56.116 --> 00:58:57.856
and at this point I'm 14 years old.

00:58:58.306 --> 00:58:58.636
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:58:59.616 --> 00:59:00.576
Have you been riding her?

00:59:00.936 --> 00:59:01.296
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:59:01.746 --> 00:59:02.226
That works.

00:59:02.231 --> 00:59:02.511
She's not throwing

00:59:02.526 --> 00:59:02.826
Rupert Isaacson: you off?

00:59:03.276 --> 00:59:04.266
Emelie Cajsdotter: No,
she's not throwing me off.

00:59:04.266 --> 00:59:04.956
She's brilliant.

00:59:04.956 --> 00:59:08.226
She runs really fast, you know,
she, she takes the bit and just

00:59:08.226 --> 00:59:09.696
takes off and, and I love it.

00:59:09.936 --> 00:59:11.856
Rupert Isaacson: So by then,
you guys have worked out a

00:59:11.856 --> 00:59:13.716
relationship of riding together too?

00:59:13.716 --> 00:59:13.776
Yeah.

00:59:14.166 --> 00:59:14.556
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

00:59:15.636 --> 00:59:17.286
That was the sort of
easy part, I would say.

00:59:17.406 --> 00:59:17.586
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

00:59:18.306 --> 00:59:18.666
Emelie Cajsdotter: it was.

00:59:18.671 --> 00:59:18.911
And she

00:59:18.911 --> 00:59:20.586
Rupert Isaacson: was chucking
other people off before, right?

00:59:20.586 --> 00:59:20.916
Yes.

00:59:20.916 --> 00:59:21.546
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, she was.

00:59:21.696 --> 00:59:21.876
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:59:21.941 --> 00:59:22.231
Okay.

00:59:23.211 --> 00:59:28.146
But by now, she's, she's accepted you
and you guys are cool together to what?

00:59:28.146 --> 00:59:28.236
Yes.

00:59:28.536 --> 00:59:30.006
Emelie Cajsdotter: We're
even doing dressage together.

00:59:30.006 --> 00:59:33.576
We are doing some sort of, you know,
when there is this Christmas or Easter

00:59:33.576 --> 00:59:35.916
or whatever, we are doing little
things, you know, doing the quad

00:59:35.916 --> 00:59:37.911
Rupert Isaacson: drills
and the display and that.

00:59:37.941 --> 00:59:38.231
Okay.

00:59:38.701 --> 00:59:42.576
Emelie Cajsdotter: Like these sort of
mirror things when one tiny, because she

00:59:42.576 --> 00:59:46.116
was very small, she's doing all these
things and another big horse with the same

00:59:46.116 --> 00:59:47.676
color is doing the same thing and Yeah.

00:59:48.366 --> 00:59:49.656
Rupert Isaacson: Part the, yeah, yeah,

00:59:49.716 --> 00:59:50.046
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.

00:59:50.051 --> 00:59:50.751
That's the name.

00:59:51.786 --> 00:59:52.536
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.

00:59:52.806 --> 00:59:56.406
So you guys work out
some harmonious mm-hmm.

00:59:57.336 --> 00:59:57.456
We do.

00:59:57.456 --> 01:00:00.186
Relationship that she carries
you, she agrees to carry you.

01:00:00.456 --> 01:00:00.666
Yep.

01:00:00.876 --> 01:00:03.636
Then she gets sick And your,
your grandmother buys the pony.

01:00:03.666 --> 01:00:04.026
Okay.

01:00:04.806 --> 01:00:08.736
Emelie Cajsdotter: She buys the pony
and I am over the moon because now I

01:00:08.736 --> 01:00:11.826
think that it's all solved and over.

01:00:11.886 --> 01:00:11.976
Right?

01:00:12.471 --> 01:00:12.761
Yeah.

01:00:13.041 --> 01:00:14.916
'cause I have no idea what you're in for.

01:00:14.916 --> 01:00:19.146
When an animal decides to become
your teacher, it's never over.

01:00:19.146 --> 01:00:19.476
Right?

01:00:20.366 --> 01:00:24.746
So she's being taken from the
riding school and put in the

01:00:24.746 --> 01:00:28.136
stable in the countryside where
she can be outside all the time.

01:00:28.496 --> 01:00:30.896
It's this open, stable,
she can go in and out.

01:00:31.256 --> 01:00:32.786
All the stress is taken away.

01:00:32.786 --> 01:00:36.206
So in my world, all that's gonna
happen next is that she's gonna

01:00:36.206 --> 01:00:38.006
be well and everyone is will in

01:00:38.366 --> 01:00:38.606
Rupert Isaacson: after.

01:00:40.061 --> 01:00:45.551
Emelie Cajsdotter: She gets much worse
because at that point, I don't know that

01:00:45.671 --> 01:00:50.381
when you have a stress related disease of
some sort, and you come to a place where

01:00:50.381 --> 01:00:55.691
you are safe, everything comes crushing
up to the surface at the same time.

01:00:56.321 --> 01:00:59.981
Now, this is what I tell people when
I'm out working and this happens to

01:00:59.981 --> 01:01:02.521
them now I can be supportive of that.

01:01:02.591 --> 01:01:05.531
But this is the first time it
happens to me, so I have no idea.

01:01:07.061 --> 01:01:10.421
So I try everything because now
the old desperation is back.

01:01:10.421 --> 01:01:12.071
If she dies, my life is over.

01:01:12.071 --> 01:01:17.071
There is no opening to the
world of non isolation.

01:01:17.071 --> 01:01:23.341
And, and in the meantime, this door that
opened between us in our first meeting

01:01:24.241 --> 01:01:29.851
never really closed because it's like this
double swinging door that is like this.

01:01:29.851 --> 01:01:33.646
So if I'm with near an animal
that isn't feeling well, all of

01:01:33.721 --> 01:01:35.311
a sudden I turn into that animal.

01:01:35.661 --> 01:01:38.391
This, I, I can't control
this going in and out.

01:01:38.781 --> 01:01:40.161
Rupert Isaacson: This is happening to you?

01:01:40.311 --> 01:01:40.611
Yes.

01:01:40.611 --> 01:01:42.256
From this point on with other animals?

01:01:42.256 --> 01:01:42.536
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:01:42.651 --> 01:01:43.041
Yes.

01:01:43.521 --> 01:01:43.641
Yeah.

01:01:43.851 --> 01:01:46.821
Particularly animals that are
not feeling well, that, that's

01:01:46.821 --> 01:01:47.991
the only pattern I can see.

01:01:48.771 --> 01:01:48.861
Mm-hmm.

01:01:48.861 --> 01:01:51.411
I'm terrified of it and I
don't really talk about it.

01:01:51.411 --> 01:01:51.471
Yeah.

01:01:52.821 --> 01:02:00.141
And then I try every treatment under
the sun to heal this pony, like

01:02:00.141 --> 01:02:01.941
alternative treatment, vet medicine.

01:02:02.331 --> 01:02:05.481
Any other vet that someone
heard of and Well, you know.

01:02:06.546 --> 01:02:08.406
You go through it a lot
because you're terrified.

01:02:09.186 --> 01:02:09.606
And

01:02:09.996 --> 01:02:12.306
Rupert Isaacson: well, it's also
the quest you're called to you, you,

01:02:12.306 --> 01:02:14.166
you, you are, you have to in a way.

01:02:14.196 --> 01:02:14.466
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:02:14.526 --> 01:02:15.336
Yes, yes.

01:02:15.336 --> 01:02:16.866
Yeah, yeah.

01:02:16.866 --> 01:02:18.666
And she responds to absolutely nothing.

01:02:18.666 --> 01:02:21.066
And to me it's incomprehensible.

01:02:21.066 --> 01:02:24.366
Why can't she get better
from anything at all?

01:02:25.626 --> 01:02:27.756
Then there is divine interference.

01:02:28.956 --> 01:02:33.696
Divine interference comes in a form of
a short notice in the local newspaper.

01:02:34.776 --> 01:02:36.336
And it's my mother who spots it.

01:02:36.336 --> 01:02:40.026
I mean, we really don't have much
contact and it doesn't work very well.

01:02:40.026 --> 01:02:47.376
But she, she spots this notice in the
newspaper that says a veterinarian

01:02:47.676 --> 01:02:52.566
from New Zealand is coming to Sweden
to give a series of lectures in the

01:02:52.566 --> 01:02:58.596
subject chronic pulmonary diseases
in horses and alternative treatments

01:02:58.656 --> 01:03:01.716
of, I mean, that is not happening.

01:03:01.746 --> 01:03:02.916
That's too precise.

01:03:03.556 --> 01:03:05.716
So my mother says, maybe
you should go to this.

01:03:06.586 --> 01:03:08.416
And yeah, I'm going to that lecture.

01:03:08.416 --> 01:03:12.046
I don't listen to the lecture at all
because my only focus is I need to

01:03:12.046 --> 01:03:13.606
get this man to come and see the pony.

01:03:14.906 --> 01:03:18.746
So directly after the lecture, I run
to this old man and, and saying, you,

01:03:18.746 --> 01:03:20.546
you have to come and see my pony.

01:03:21.176 --> 01:03:22.166
And he says, yes, fine.

01:03:22.166 --> 01:03:23.096
We can go tomorrow.

01:03:23.096 --> 01:03:24.026
I can borrow a car.

01:03:24.026 --> 01:03:26.186
And we go and see your pony
because she's in the outskirts

01:03:26.186 --> 01:03:27.566
of, she's now outside of the city.

01:03:28.751 --> 01:03:31.361
And I take a bus out every
day and cycle every day.

01:03:31.361 --> 01:03:34.421
So two hours traveling every
day to go to this pony.

01:03:34.781 --> 01:03:37.391
It's still, the test of
endurance is on, right?

01:03:38.471 --> 01:03:43.321
And so we are supposed to meet
the following day in a cafe.

01:03:43.501 --> 01:03:47.921
And yeah, I go to the cafe and
he says, well, the car broke

01:03:47.921 --> 01:03:49.811
down so we can't go to your pony.

01:03:50.811 --> 01:03:51.951
But now you have a choice.

01:03:52.931 --> 01:03:55.421
Either you go back to school
and make your teachers happy.

01:03:55.421 --> 01:03:57.491
I wasn't too keen on school.

01:03:58.131 --> 01:04:00.291
So it wasn't hard for me to skip.

01:04:01.011 --> 01:04:05.421
Or you stay here and I will
tell you about what I do.

01:04:06.831 --> 01:04:11.271
And I didn't realize that this was
one of these crossroads that really

01:04:11.271 --> 01:04:14.851
matters because I was just desperate
wanting the pony to get better.

01:04:14.851 --> 01:04:17.401
So I thought, I don't want to
lose connection to this guy.

01:04:17.401 --> 01:04:18.091
So I stay.

01:04:19.441 --> 01:04:25.611
And this man spent a full day talking
to this kid about what he's doing,

01:04:25.731 --> 01:04:32.161
which includes healing Chinese
medicine, homeopathy all sorts of

01:04:33.241 --> 01:04:35.581
energetically based treatments basically.

01:04:36.431 --> 01:04:40.866
And during this whole day when
we sit in this cafe, I begin to.

01:04:41.436 --> 01:04:46.866
Remember something because
somehow none of this is new to me.

01:04:46.866 --> 01:04:52.566
This is something that some part
of me already know, and all of

01:04:52.566 --> 01:04:59.286
a sudden I understand that I am
meant to do something similar.

01:05:00.156 --> 01:05:06.576
This is why I get drawn in and
out of animals because I'm meant

01:05:06.576 --> 01:05:07.896
to be able to do something.

01:05:10.456 --> 01:05:14.836
So, and it was such a huge
relief to find that foundation

01:05:14.836 --> 01:05:17.266
in me already at the age of 14.

01:05:22.336 --> 01:05:23.116
Rupert Isaacson: Dot, dot, dot.

01:05:24.886 --> 01:05:24.976
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:05:24.976 --> 01:05:27.856
So, then the next day, the car is fixed.

01:05:28.516 --> 01:05:31.216
So he says, now we can go to the
pony, because now the car works.

01:05:31.246 --> 01:05:34.216
And she responds like
clockwork to the treatment.

01:05:34.636 --> 01:05:35.356
Rupert Isaacson: What does he do?

01:05:35.696 --> 01:05:40.446
Emelie Cajsdotter: He puts needles he
gives acupuncture and gives her a mixture

01:05:40.446 --> 01:05:44.826
of herbs amongst them I know is Chili
pepper because I have to go and buy it.

01:05:45.636 --> 01:05:49.476
And she just immediately responds to that.

01:05:49.476 --> 01:05:49.851
What was the

01:05:49.956 --> 01:05:50.646
Rupert Isaacson: name of this bat?

01:05:51.546 --> 01:05:53.046
Emelie Cajsdotter:
Sorry, what was his name?

01:05:53.046 --> 01:05:54.036
Tony Frith.

01:05:54.096 --> 01:05:56.316
I'm, I'm, I don't know
if he's still alive.

01:05:56.616 --> 01:05:57.576
Rupert Isaacson: Tony Frith.

01:05:57.576 --> 01:05:58.806
I might look him up later.

01:05:59.051 --> 01:06:00.696
Emelie Cajsdotter: He,
he is in New Zealand.

01:06:02.916 --> 01:06:03.816
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.

01:06:04.806 --> 01:06:05.346
Please go on.

01:06:05.781 --> 01:06:06.111
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:06:06.231 --> 01:06:09.646
And and he stays for another
one or two weeks in Sweden.

01:06:09.646 --> 01:06:11.446
So I follow him as an assistant.

01:06:11.751 --> 01:06:12.041
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:06:12.041 --> 01:06:12.042
'cause

01:06:12.586 --> 01:06:14.626
Emelie Cajsdotter: I really want to
learn as much as possible, and he's

01:06:14.626 --> 01:06:17.116
very kind in taking this kid on.

01:06:17.946 --> 01:06:23.526
And I also realized that being such her
name was period means the tiny one was

01:06:23.526 --> 01:06:29.976
such a great teacher that the timing of
healing, she's not sick because of me.

01:06:29.976 --> 01:06:34.896
She's not sacrificing herself for
my teaching, but the timing of

01:06:34.896 --> 01:06:39.856
her disease and what I have to
learn is absolutely brilliant.

01:06:40.396 --> 01:06:44.956
And somehow she knows that because
she doesn't have that fear that I

01:06:44.956 --> 01:06:51.496
have, she has completely given herself
to her destiny in a way that is at

01:06:51.496 --> 01:06:53.956
that point, still unknown to me.

01:06:55.216 --> 01:06:57.346
I mean, I struggle to
keep everything together.

01:06:58.096 --> 01:07:03.616
And then he, this, this vet, he leaves
me with a bunch of acupuncture needles,

01:07:03.886 --> 01:07:07.786
flies back to the other side of the world
and says, now the rest is up to you.

01:07:09.976 --> 01:07:13.306
And, and around the same time,
my mother says the same thing.

01:07:13.306 --> 01:07:18.076
My mother, who at that point
suffers from a great depression.

01:07:19.246 --> 01:07:20.296
She can't get outta bed.

01:07:20.296 --> 01:07:23.266
I remember neighbors having to
come in to sort of lift her around.

01:07:23.266 --> 01:07:24.526
She was in a really bad state.

01:07:24.526 --> 01:07:26.266
She was in a destructive relationship.

01:07:26.956 --> 01:07:27.826
Plenty of those.

01:07:28.276 --> 01:07:30.346
But this one may be a bit more particular.

01:07:31.036 --> 01:07:33.766
And she tells me this is without anger.

01:07:33.766 --> 01:07:35.656
She just says, I, I can't look after you.

01:07:36.436 --> 01:07:37.516
Which, which is obvious.

01:07:37.996 --> 01:07:42.131
I, I, I will give you a bank account
card and the money, the grant you

01:07:42.131 --> 01:07:47.321
get from the government each month
for having a kid, which is about $80,

01:07:49.061 --> 01:07:52.931
it's like you will get that amount
of money that I would get for you.

01:07:52.961 --> 01:07:55.451
And you just have to, you,
you have to find a way.

01:07:55.961 --> 01:07:57.821
Rupert Isaacson: And grandmother,
is it still around at this point?

01:07:58.241 --> 01:08:00.671
Emelie Cajsdotter: She's still
around, but she is not really

01:08:00.671 --> 01:08:02.771
feeling very well in herself either.

01:08:03.221 --> 01:08:08.741
So I get more or less financially
independent at that age.

01:08:08.921 --> 01:08:10.756
Rupert Isaacson: This is what,
nineteen eighty two, eighty three?

01:08:11.301 --> 01:08:12.681
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm born 74.

01:08:12.981 --> 01:08:13.221
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:08:13.221 --> 01:08:14.816
It's a bit later then it's like Yeah.

01:08:14.816 --> 01:08:16.011
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's
like late eighties.

01:08:16.311 --> 01:08:16.581
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:08:17.901 --> 01:08:18.171
Okay.

01:08:18.711 --> 01:08:22.041
Emelie Cajsdotter: And then and I
have one talent that I don't have

01:08:22.041 --> 01:08:24.681
to work for, and that is painting.

01:08:25.106 --> 01:08:25.396
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:08:26.011 --> 01:08:31.771
Emelie Cajsdotter: So I become a
portrait painter and financially

01:08:31.771 --> 01:08:34.591
support me and this pony mm-hmm.

01:08:34.831 --> 01:08:37.051
By painting portraits from that day on.

01:08:38.011 --> 01:08:38.041
Okay.

01:08:38.101 --> 01:08:40.171
Which I continued to do until.

01:08:40.816 --> 01:08:44.026
I started to do this
as a full-time living.

01:08:45.106 --> 01:08:49.216
I mean, I don't have time to paint
now, but hopefully I will go hide

01:08:49.216 --> 01:08:50.656
somewhere at some point and continue.

01:08:52.126 --> 01:08:53.056
Rupert Isaacson: Bit like me in writing.

01:08:53.176 --> 01:08:53.386
Yeah.

01:08:53.386 --> 01:08:53.626
Yes.

01:08:54.581 --> 01:08:54.871
Emelie Cajsdotter: Okay.

01:08:55.461 --> 01:08:55.751
Time.

01:08:56.221 --> 01:08:56.511
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:08:56.511 --> 01:08:59.626
So you are now 15, 16.

01:08:59.956 --> 01:09:00.436
Emelie Cajsdotter: 14.

01:09:01.151 --> 01:09:01.231
Rupert Isaacson: 14.

01:09:01.246 --> 01:09:02.206
This happens at 14?

01:09:02.236 --> 01:09:02.356
Yeah.

01:09:02.476 --> 01:09:02.836
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:09:03.106 --> 01:09:03.376
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:09:03.526 --> 01:09:05.086
And meanwhile, adolescence has happened.

01:09:05.086 --> 01:09:06.166
Puberty's happened.

01:09:06.496 --> 01:09:06.616
Yeah.

01:09:06.616 --> 01:09:12.016
And has that further opened
up any kind of portals in your

01:09:12.256 --> 01:09:14.716
perception, or has that changed any?

01:09:15.616 --> 01:09:16.336
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:09:16.446 --> 01:09:20.956
That door I, I'm, I'm calmer
with it because now I understand

01:09:20.956 --> 01:09:22.276
that it has a context.

01:09:22.366 --> 01:09:22.426
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

01:09:23.106 --> 01:09:29.226
Emelie Cajsdotter: But what happens
in, in adolescence is that it becomes

01:09:29.226 --> 01:09:35.026
messier meaning messies, maybe not,
confusing is maybe a better word

01:09:35.026 --> 01:09:41.386
because it's never, I never had, I
had one really frightening experience,

01:09:41.926 --> 01:09:44.356
but, and I brought that on myself.

01:09:44.956 --> 01:09:45.976
We could do that one too.

01:09:46.036 --> 01:09:48.831
It's a short one, but, but all good boys.

01:09:49.141 --> 01:09:49.431
Yeah.

01:09:49.436 --> 01:09:55.366
All my experiences with, with
ancestors, with other species with.

01:09:56.041 --> 01:10:00.361
It always comes from a
source that has kindness.

01:10:00.961 --> 01:10:01.381
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:10:01.591 --> 01:10:06.601
Emelie Cajsdotter: I, I've, I've
never had an encounter with Ill intent

01:10:07.501 --> 01:10:08.761
Rupert Isaacson: except for one you say?

01:10:08.941 --> 01:10:09.811
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, except for one.

01:10:10.081 --> 01:10:10.381
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:10:10.381 --> 01:10:11.011
Tell us that one.

01:10:11.881 --> 01:10:12.271
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:10:12.481 --> 01:10:16.981
It was in this time when all of a
sudden I could sit on the tram and

01:10:16.981 --> 01:10:18.721
I would be in a different place.

01:10:19.111 --> 01:10:23.521
I would see people that would be
deceased or in amongst other people.

01:10:23.521 --> 01:10:29.311
It, it, it was, it is like many doors
going like this as adolescents is, even

01:10:29.311 --> 01:10:30.991
if you don't add spirituality to it.

01:10:31.021 --> 01:10:31.411
Right.

01:10:32.571 --> 01:10:38.631
So, and, and I realized that I have to
do something about this and, and, and

01:10:38.631 --> 01:10:45.201
this only one bad event I have is when I
have decided to not listen to any of it.

01:10:46.261 --> 01:10:51.761
I have this short period,
very short, maybe a few days

01:10:52.241 --> 01:10:54.461
when I decide to be normal.

01:10:55.581 --> 01:11:00.601
Get an education, get a proper
job get myself a, you know, secure

01:11:00.601 --> 01:11:04.921
foundation, not based on all these other
things that no one can see or feel.

01:11:05.461 --> 01:11:09.756
And and, and I decide to, you
know, cut your hair and go and

01:11:09.756 --> 01:11:10.956
get a job, that sort of thing.

01:11:13.006 --> 01:11:18.016
So I, I decide to be normal and
stop this bullshit nonsense.

01:11:18.076 --> 01:11:23.616
And and at night when I'm just
about to go to sleep and the room

01:11:23.616 --> 01:11:28.716
is dark, I see this headless figure
coming close, closer to the bed.

01:11:30.426 --> 01:11:32.796
And it's really scary because
it's just, it's just moving and I

01:11:32.796 --> 01:11:36.936
can't, I can't communicate with it
and I can't stop it from moving.

01:11:37.316 --> 01:11:43.946
And any sort of prayer or way to try to
get to a a center point doesn't work.

01:11:45.046 --> 01:11:47.026
And I turn on the lamp
and it doesn't work.

01:11:47.056 --> 01:11:49.696
This, this, this being
is just moving close.

01:11:49.696 --> 01:11:51.766
I get sort of heart palpitations
when I speak about it.

01:11:51.766 --> 01:11:57.106
Now it's getting to here when I
realize that, wait a minute, this

01:11:57.106 --> 01:12:02.896
figure that I'm looking at, this
headless figure is me, it's my body.

01:12:02.896 --> 01:12:05.956
I am, I'm, I'm killing myself.

01:12:06.856 --> 01:12:07.096
Okay?

01:12:07.126 --> 01:12:10.786
Because the feeling was that this, this
individual would come and suffocate me.

01:12:10.991 --> 01:12:11.071
Hmm.

01:12:11.236 --> 01:12:16.396
It's like, and ever since that
experience, it is like, okay, I

01:12:16.396 --> 01:12:19.486
promise I will never do anything
normal and secure in my whole life.

01:12:25.961 --> 01:12:26.446
So, and the

01:12:26.446 --> 01:12:27.976
Rupert Isaacson: figure, when
you have that realization,

01:12:27.976 --> 01:12:29.236
the figure sort of evaporates.

01:12:29.241 --> 01:12:29.461
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:12:29.466 --> 01:12:29.716
Yeah.

01:12:29.716 --> 01:12:30.916
They just wasn't there anymore.

01:12:31.756 --> 01:12:31.966
Rupert Isaacson: So.

01:12:31.966 --> 01:12:32.506
Interesting.

01:12:33.496 --> 01:12:35.626
Are you still 14 or are you
a bit older at this point?

01:12:36.496 --> 01:12:37.906
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm
around that like 15.

01:12:39.196 --> 01:12:40.936
Rupert Isaacson: Are you having
relationships at this point

01:12:40.936 --> 01:12:42.196
or are you very much a loner?

01:12:43.096 --> 01:12:47.026
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm a loner
at this point, and I am slightly

01:12:47.026 --> 01:12:52.336
uninterested in romantic relationships
because my friends who has that, they

01:12:52.336 --> 01:12:54.286
become slightly boring in my eyes.

01:12:54.586 --> 01:12:54.796
Right.

01:12:55.346 --> 01:12:58.226
They, they start to sort of
sit inside and hold hands and

01:12:58.226 --> 01:12:59.396
they're not out on adventures.

01:12:59.396 --> 01:13:00.786
And and

01:13:00.841 --> 01:13:04.051
Rupert Isaacson: are people,
are people observing you, other

01:13:04.051 --> 01:13:05.041
types of relationship too?

01:13:05.041 --> 01:13:08.161
So are people observing, you say
doing acupuncture on your pony, which

01:13:08.161 --> 01:13:12.511
back then would've been something
very new and so, and are people

01:13:12.511 --> 01:13:16.141
now asking you to do similar things
or are you kind of in isolation?

01:13:16.651 --> 01:13:19.861
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm, I'm in
isolation in the sense that

01:13:19.861 --> 01:13:21.541
I'm, I'm just doing this for me.

01:13:21.546 --> 01:13:21.946
Mm-hmm.

01:13:22.471 --> 01:13:24.961
The things I do for others
is portrait painting.

01:13:25.056 --> 01:13:25.346
Okay.

01:13:27.291 --> 01:13:30.801
But I've always had friends.

01:13:32.331 --> 01:13:36.051
And still do always lots
and lots of friends.

01:13:36.171 --> 01:13:36.441
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:13:36.711 --> 01:13:37.601
Emelie Cajsdotter: And so you're not

01:13:37.601 --> 01:13:38.741
Rupert Isaacson: isolated in that regard.

01:13:38.741 --> 01:13:40.571
You are having relationships
just not romantic.

01:13:40.571 --> 01:13:40.631
Yeah.

01:13:40.991 --> 01:13:41.351
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:13:41.561 --> 01:13:41.771
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:13:42.161 --> 01:13:48.131
Emelie Cajsdotter: And then I moved
school, this is like now I'm probably 16.

01:13:48.311 --> 01:13:48.401
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:13:49.331 --> 01:13:51.371
Emelie Cajsdotter: And now,
now the pony is back on track.

01:13:51.371 --> 01:13:53.291
I mean, she's healed from her disease.

01:13:53.781 --> 01:13:56.691
And, and I know what
I'm meant to be doing.

01:13:57.561 --> 01:14:00.741
So now it's climbed up from
this, there is no way for me,

01:14:00.741 --> 01:14:01.971
I need to die sort of thing.

01:14:01.971 --> 01:14:02.691
I'm not there.

01:14:02.696 --> 01:14:02.966
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:14:03.891 --> 01:14:11.931
Emelie Cajsdotter: But in this
awakening, I become very provocative.

01:14:13.651 --> 01:14:15.991
Because all of a sudden
I don't need to conform.

01:14:16.321 --> 01:14:16.621
Right?

01:14:16.651 --> 01:14:22.531
This whole story of you have to go to
school, otherwise you will end up a tramp.

01:14:23.011 --> 01:14:26.281
That doesn't work for me anymore because
I know what I'm meant to be doing.

01:14:26.281 --> 01:14:27.991
So I know that there is a way.

01:14:28.891 --> 01:14:33.601
So all this obey or you shall
be doomed has no effect.

01:14:33.941 --> 01:14:39.351
And because I'm stronger I dare
to sort of test my surroundings.

01:14:39.351 --> 01:14:45.981
So, so now I, I turn into a much
more sort of feisty type of person.

01:14:47.361 --> 01:14:49.671
And I begin to study Dao de Ching.

01:14:50.751 --> 01:14:55.101
For some reason, I find this tiny little
Dao de Ching book written translated

01:14:55.101 --> 01:14:56.571
by a guy called Steven Mitchell.

01:14:57.141 --> 01:15:00.141
And I still read this book because
I love that particular translation.

01:15:01.191 --> 01:15:09.271
And I begin to question every single
thing around me and I go to this

01:15:09.631 --> 01:15:13.601
school because you change school at
that age in Sweden, and I want to

01:15:13.601 --> 01:15:18.311
focus on biology because I think that
maybe that would make sense to me.

01:15:19.501 --> 01:15:23.401
I, I realized that I will need
typewriting biology and English.

01:15:23.401 --> 01:15:26.941
So I, this is before you have
computer science in school.

01:15:27.731 --> 01:15:28.541
And, and this is true.

01:15:28.601 --> 01:15:31.931
These are the only things that I
ever needed and eventually not,

01:15:32.321 --> 01:15:35.621
maybe not biology in the same as
much as English and typewriting.

01:15:37.271 --> 01:15:44.351
And I find like-minded friends that
are questioning society in a very.

01:15:44.801 --> 01:15:46.751
Non-aggressive way.

01:15:47.441 --> 01:15:51.191
It's like we will protest against the
traffic in the inner city of Gothenburg

01:15:51.191 --> 01:15:55.361
by dancing samba in the middle of
the street so no one can pass us.

01:15:55.481 --> 01:15:57.341
It's a lot of playfulness.

01:15:57.341 --> 01:16:01.091
It's not that sort of
hatred driven protesting.

01:16:01.801 --> 01:16:08.201
And amongst those friends is a person
that I really owe gratitude to.

01:16:08.201 --> 01:16:13.721
And that is a guy who is a
musician in the Samba band.

01:16:13.811 --> 01:16:15.041
It's lots of samba dancing.

01:16:15.941 --> 01:16:16.931
And he, the

01:16:16.931 --> 01:16:18.221
Rupert Isaacson: samba is so Swedish.

01:16:19.031 --> 01:16:19.182
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, yeah.

01:16:19.766 --> 01:16:24.611
No, but you know, it was the
military coup in what was his name?

01:16:24.611 --> 01:16:25.301
Pinochet.

01:16:26.081 --> 01:16:26.112
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah,

01:16:26.411 --> 01:16:26.681
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.

01:16:26.891 --> 01:16:28.001
Those refugees.

01:16:28.061 --> 01:16:32.831
The kids born in that flight from Chile.

01:16:33.071 --> 01:16:34.811
From Chile would be about my age.

01:16:34.961 --> 01:16:36.821
These, that's the samba squad.

01:16:37.331 --> 01:16:37.631
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:16:38.801 --> 01:16:41.861
Emelie Cajsdotter: And anyway, and
this is the first time since my

01:16:41.861 --> 01:16:44.021
father that I meet an absolute person.

01:16:45.101 --> 01:16:48.821
This, this samba musician is
completely in a world of his own.

01:16:48.821 --> 01:16:53.481
We never really spoke because you
couldn't he always had these headphones

01:16:53.481 --> 01:16:58.491
on and he was always playing samba on
everything on the table, on his body,

01:16:58.491 --> 01:17:05.091
on his teeth, on his bag on the lessons
outside of the lessons in the canteen.

01:17:05.586 --> 01:17:10.416
And what I noticed with him
doing that was that obviously

01:17:10.416 --> 01:17:12.696
he was 100% true to himself.

01:17:13.116 --> 01:17:13.206
Mm-hmm.

01:17:13.446 --> 01:17:15.216
He wasn't playing samba.

01:17:15.606 --> 01:17:17.016
He was samba.

01:17:17.286 --> 01:17:17.556
Got it.

01:17:17.766 --> 01:17:21.606
And because he was it, no one
could have an opinion about that.

01:17:22.326 --> 01:17:25.086
He just was who he is.

01:17:26.016 --> 01:17:26.046
Mm.

01:17:26.046 --> 01:17:27.666
So no one ever asked him to stop.

01:17:28.086 --> 01:17:32.826
No one told him that your life is doomed
and you should all be a sort of in poverty

01:17:32.826 --> 01:17:36.406
and hell unless you start listening
to your teachers, they let him be.

01:17:38.176 --> 01:17:45.406
So, I, I noticed his way through the
world in school and that Okay, if

01:17:45.406 --> 01:17:47.566
he can do that, I can do that too.

01:17:48.246 --> 01:17:50.016
I'm not meant to play samba.

01:17:50.736 --> 01:17:52.626
I'm meant to do something
completely different.

01:17:52.656 --> 01:17:58.596
I'm meant to do empathic into being with
other species and, and if I'm 100% true

01:17:58.596 --> 01:18:03.306
to that, without making any excuses,
the world is not going to stop me.

01:18:05.301 --> 01:18:11.271
This was so incredibly helpful that I
actually found this guy's phone number

01:18:11.271 --> 01:18:14.931
a couple of years ago and, and, and
wrote him a text to say thank you.

01:18:15.621 --> 01:18:19.441
And he said, oh I didn't realize
that that would affect anyone else,

01:18:19.441 --> 01:18:23.041
but, but he had come to exactly
the same conclusions for himself.

01:18:24.061 --> 01:18:24.421
He just,

01:18:24.421 --> 01:18:26.491
Rupert Isaacson: what, what have he got
on to do by the way, out of interest?

01:18:26.716 --> 01:18:28.441
Emelie Cajsdotter: He, he
is still a samba musician.

01:18:28.501 --> 01:18:33.621
He is in some really good orchestras
playing with some really good sort

01:18:33.621 --> 01:18:35.301
of well-known Swedish musician.

01:18:35.301 --> 01:18:36.216
He can make a living out of it.

01:18:36.216 --> 01:18:36.566
Mm-hmm.

01:18:36.646 --> 01:18:38.271
And he has a samba school in Rio.

01:18:38.661 --> 01:18:39.291
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

01:18:42.036 --> 01:18:42.326
Okay.

01:18:42.986 --> 01:18:47.001
So, you are now heading for college?

01:18:47.091 --> 01:18:47.241
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:18:47.241 --> 01:18:48.771
This is sort of college, I suppose.

01:18:48.771 --> 01:18:49.071
College.

01:18:49.131 --> 01:18:49.551
Okay.

01:18:49.551 --> 01:18:51.861
When, when you are sort of
16 to 19, kind of what's

01:18:51.861 --> 01:18:55.206
Rupert Isaacson: interesting to me so
far is that with the possible exception

01:18:55.206 --> 01:18:59.541
of the pony, and I presume you are
trail riding the pony in the forest.

01:18:59.961 --> 01:19:00.441
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:19:00.771 --> 01:19:03.081
Rupert Isaacson: So far the
forest has not entered the story.

01:19:03.081 --> 01:19:08.901
And I remember when I went to Sweden
at 12 years old, I was taken that I,

01:19:08.906 --> 01:19:14.511
I was in a choir and the choir went on
tour in Sweden for, for some reason.

01:19:14.931 --> 01:19:19.611
And so I found myself there and I
remember thinking, oh my God, this

01:19:19.611 --> 01:19:23.601
is such a beautiful place and.

01:19:25.026 --> 01:19:26.466
The forest, of course, being everywhere.

01:19:26.676 --> 01:19:28.356
And so I remember going to Gothenburg.

01:19:29.016 --> 01:19:29.106
Mm-hmm.

01:19:29.151 --> 01:19:31.386
Because I think that's actually,
that was our entry point now that

01:19:31.386 --> 01:19:34.236
I think, yeah, we, we went on the
boat and we entered at Gothenburg.

01:19:34.716 --> 01:19:35.046
I don't care.

01:19:35.046 --> 01:19:36.846
Gothenburg was a city, but
I was coming from London.

01:19:36.846 --> 01:19:37.446
It's like it's not a

01:19:37.471 --> 01:19:37.511
Emelie Cajsdotter: city.

01:19:37.511 --> 01:19:37.671
Yeah.

01:19:37.971 --> 01:19:39.216
No, it's not a city, it's a town.

01:19:39.456 --> 01:19:42.166
Rupert Isaacson: And so you know,
the forest is like there, you know,

01:19:42.256 --> 01:19:45.256
every, like, it's not like London
where you'd have to, you know, cycle

01:19:45.256 --> 01:19:47.386
for half a day to get to the city.

01:19:47.386 --> 01:19:49.276
It's like, no, the forest, it's there.

01:19:49.516 --> 01:19:54.826
So even if you're in a high rise in
Gothenburg, the forest is accessible.

01:19:54.826 --> 01:19:55.726
It's close.

01:19:55.846 --> 01:19:56.206
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:19:56.206 --> 01:19:58.726
No, the forest is actually
in it all along because me.

01:19:59.236 --> 01:19:59.296
Okay.

01:19:59.296 --> 01:20:00.166
So, so just dial us

01:20:00.166 --> 01:20:00.886
Rupert Isaacson: back to the forest.

01:20:01.756 --> 01:20:03.886
When does the forest
enter your life and how

01:20:05.056 --> 01:20:06.886
Emelie Cajsdotter: it starts
with these big beach trees?

01:20:07.426 --> 01:20:07.876
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:20:08.376 --> 01:20:09.426
Emelie Cajsdotter: It definitely does.

01:20:09.426 --> 01:20:15.366
And a constant feeling
of the forest being home.

01:20:15.756 --> 01:20:16.146
Right.

01:20:17.436 --> 01:20:24.066
And I would say that that's still
the nature type that, well, I love

01:20:24.066 --> 01:20:27.516
all nature types not right, but it's,
it's ecosystem, but is really close

01:20:27.516 --> 01:20:28.416
Rupert Isaacson: that you grew up in.

01:20:28.416 --> 01:20:29.226
Absolutely, yes.

01:20:29.226 --> 01:20:29.316
And,

01:20:30.006 --> 01:20:33.876
Emelie Cajsdotter: and I remember
also seeing these big floaty

01:20:34.536 --> 01:20:38.736
almost whiteish, big round things
floating between the trees.

01:20:38.766 --> 01:20:41.256
I, I, I still am to this day,
don't know what that is, but

01:20:41.796 --> 01:20:44.736
like some sort of forest spirits.

01:20:45.801 --> 01:20:48.831
They wouldn't be there all the
time, but the times that I had seen

01:20:48.831 --> 01:20:52.981
them I, I just love that feeling.

01:20:52.981 --> 01:20:53.496
So did they ever

01:20:53.496 --> 01:20:53.941
Rupert Isaacson: talk to you?

01:20:54.751 --> 01:20:55.741
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, those never did.

01:20:55.741 --> 01:20:56.881
It was just a presence.

01:20:57.631 --> 01:20:57.721
Okay.

01:20:57.721 --> 01:21:04.991
But I also began to see what we in
Sweden called little people like small

01:21:05.171 --> 01:21:07.661
forest spirits or nature spirits.

01:21:07.846 --> 01:21:11.621
Rupert Isaacson: At what, at, at
what age do you see them and how does

01:21:12.371 --> 01:21:14.711
Emelie Cajsdotter: around this 14, 15, 16.

01:21:15.011 --> 01:21:17.771
Around the time when, yeah.

01:21:18.101 --> 01:21:20.081
Rupert Isaacson: As you may know,
if you've been following my work,

01:21:20.111 --> 01:21:22.511
we are also horsey folk here.

01:21:23.016 --> 01:21:27.506
And we have been training horses for
many, many years in the manner of

01:21:27.556 --> 01:21:30.716
the old classical dressage masters.

01:21:31.146 --> 01:21:33.936
This is something which is
often very confusing for people.

01:21:34.326 --> 01:21:39.326
We shine a light on that murky, difficult
stuff and make it crystal clear.

01:21:39.586 --> 01:21:44.416
If you'd like to learn to train your
horse in the manner of the old masters and

01:21:44.416 --> 01:21:50.216
really have fun and joy for you and your
equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.

01:21:50.216 --> 01:21:52.546
com Sign up as a premium member.

01:21:52.866 --> 01:21:56.876
and begin to take the Helios Harmony
course, which will take you from zero

01:21:57.346 --> 01:22:02.476
to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing
on the spot in hand on the ground.

01:22:03.066 --> 01:22:06.776
And then from there, you can
develop out to anywhere you want to.

01:22:07.736 --> 01:22:08.476
Heliosharmony.

01:22:08.986 --> 01:22:12.656
com to unlock the secrets
of the old masters.

01:22:13.061 --> 01:22:13.391
Okay.

01:22:13.391 --> 01:22:14.141
That's interesting to me.

01:22:14.141 --> 01:22:17.261
Not younger because, you know, I think,
I think no, but I was never really young

01:22:17.261 --> 01:22:19.091
kids report seeing things like this.

01:22:19.091 --> 01:22:22.091
But then it, they stopped seeing
them usually at adolescents?

01:22:22.091 --> 01:22:22.151
No,

01:22:22.201 --> 01:22:23.011
Emelie Cajsdotter: I was in the city.

01:22:23.011 --> 01:22:25.621
I saw mainly dead relatives and,

01:22:27.136 --> 01:22:27.426
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

01:22:28.606 --> 01:22:32.431
So, so you, when you were a
kid, dead relatives, and then as

01:22:32.431 --> 01:22:34.771
soon as you, you managed to get
out to the country with this?

01:22:34.831 --> 01:22:35.281
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:22:35.671 --> 01:22:36.991
Rupert Isaacson: You began little people.

01:22:36.991 --> 01:22:37.231
Yes.

01:22:37.231 --> 01:22:38.341
Did the little people talk to you?

01:22:38.851 --> 01:22:39.241
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:22:39.481 --> 01:22:40.141
Rupert Isaacson: What do they say?

01:22:40.771 --> 01:22:44.891
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, it's
a lot about healing generosity,

01:22:44.891 --> 01:22:46.511
how to help nature, I would say.

01:22:46.811 --> 01:22:47.051
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:22:47.321 --> 01:22:50.416
Emelie Cajsdotter: Like an embodiment of
helping nature the way I Can you, can you

01:22:50.421 --> 01:22:53.561
Rupert Isaacson: remember, do certain
conversations or interactions stand out?

01:22:54.061 --> 01:22:54.421
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

01:22:54.421 --> 01:22:58.591
Not really, but I, I remember like
learning about different plants and.

01:23:00.181 --> 01:23:00.841
These sort of things.

01:23:00.841 --> 01:23:05.761
So when I realized that I no longer
need to be obedient and I was almost

01:23:05.761 --> 01:23:11.011
never in school anymore except a few
days a week to get inspired by samba

01:23:11.011 --> 01:23:15.251
friends, then I would be out in the
forest looking for forest spirits.

01:23:15.821 --> 01:23:16.121
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:23:16.181 --> 01:23:17.201
Would you always find them?

01:23:17.591 --> 01:23:17.981
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

01:23:18.701 --> 01:23:19.721
And that wasn't really the point.

01:23:19.721 --> 01:23:24.971
I think the point was that it was such an,
it just felt like a quest that made sense

01:23:25.031 --> 01:23:25.541
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

01:23:26.166 --> 01:23:27.581
When, when you found them

01:23:27.941 --> 01:23:28.421
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:23:28.901 --> 01:23:31.696
Rupert Isaacson: How did you
find, like, what was, I think they

01:23:31.696 --> 01:23:31.976
Emelie Cajsdotter: find you,

01:23:32.291 --> 01:23:33.041
Rupert Isaacson: how they'd appear.

01:23:33.441 --> 01:23:38.811
Emelie Cajsdotter: They, they would
just appear as, as sort of almost

01:23:38.811 --> 01:23:45.381
like being one with a stone or a tree
or, and they would sort of come out

01:23:46.311 --> 01:23:47.901
Rupert Isaacson: and
say, Hey, how's it going?

01:23:47.901 --> 01:23:50.841
Or what would, what would the initial,

01:23:51.411 --> 01:23:54.231
Emelie Cajsdotter: I would feel respect
for them because they're sort of, they're

01:23:54.231 --> 01:24:03.651
tough and a bit sharp and, and I wouldn't
sort of, if I would, would see them, it

01:24:03.651 --> 01:24:05.901
would feel like a huge sort of thing.

01:24:06.471 --> 01:24:11.121
And I would never dare to sort of ask
anything more than having got the chance.

01:24:11.121 --> 01:24:11.316
Would you

01:24:11.321 --> 01:24:11.781
Rupert Isaacson: greet them?

01:24:12.801 --> 01:24:13.911
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes,
I, I would greet them.

01:24:14.241 --> 01:24:15.261
Rupert Isaacson: And how
would you greet them?

01:24:15.531 --> 01:24:16.641
Emelie Cajsdotter: I would
greet them, like I would greet

01:24:16.641 --> 01:24:17.841
anything like, I, I see you.

01:24:18.291 --> 01:24:19.821
Rupert Isaacson: And
to which they would say

01:24:19.871 --> 01:24:22.061
Emelie Cajsdotter: sort
of noticing me wordless

01:24:22.511 --> 01:24:25.061
Rupert Isaacson: and
then saying, alright, I.

01:24:25.871 --> 01:24:27.071
Emily, we've got something to teach you.

01:24:27.071 --> 01:24:28.391
I'm gonna teach you about this plant now.

01:24:28.396 --> 01:24:28.586
Yes.

01:24:28.691 --> 01:24:28.841
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:24:28.841 --> 01:24:29.621
It could be like that.

01:24:29.711 --> 01:24:30.641
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:24:30.641 --> 01:24:30.642
Okay.

01:24:31.331 --> 01:24:32.741
Any physical interaction?

01:24:33.701 --> 01:24:34.001
Emelie Cajsdotter: No,

01:24:36.161 --> 01:24:39.371
not except sort of things disappearing
and moving and those sort of things,

01:24:39.491 --> 01:24:41.351
Rupert Isaacson: but not
physically touching you.

01:24:41.351 --> 01:24:41.352
No.

01:24:42.466 --> 01:24:45.616
And then talk to us about the variety.

01:24:45.616 --> 01:24:46.636
What do they look like?

01:24:48.646 --> 01:24:50.746
Emelie Cajsdotter: They look
like an embodiment of, like a

01:24:50.746 --> 01:24:52.876
personalized embodiment of nature.

01:24:52.876 --> 01:24:55.516
They don't really look like humans, but

01:24:56.536 --> 01:24:56.806
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:24:56.806 --> 01:24:58.781
So you're not seeing a little,
because we say little people,

01:24:59.201 --> 01:25:00.736
one thinks of a small person.

01:25:00.916 --> 01:25:01.426
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:25:01.426 --> 01:25:03.886
But I think we make them more human.

01:25:05.176 --> 01:25:07.966
Rupert Isaacson: Would you see them
as human through your mind's eye?

01:25:07.966 --> 01:25:08.866
Is that how you

01:25:09.406 --> 01:25:12.286
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, but they would
have similar shapes to humans, meaning

01:25:12.286 --> 01:25:13.756
that they could have arms and legs.

01:25:13.786 --> 01:25:14.116
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:25:14.176 --> 01:25:16.126
Arms, legs, eyes, mouth.

01:25:16.876 --> 01:25:17.206
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:25:17.686 --> 01:25:17.956
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:25:18.706 --> 01:25:20.476
And always small.

01:25:22.306 --> 01:25:23.176
Emelie Cajsdotter: Those types.

01:25:23.176 --> 01:25:23.686
Always small.

01:25:25.096 --> 01:25:26.566
Rupert Isaacson: What
other types were they?

01:25:27.166 --> 01:25:30.766
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, but other
types, like more, more fairy types that

01:25:30.766 --> 01:25:33.166
would be more transparent and bigger.

01:25:34.006 --> 01:25:35.146
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about those.

01:25:35.806 --> 01:25:38.416
How do you, how they appear,
how do you interact with them?

01:25:40.006 --> 01:25:40.246
Emelie Cajsdotter: I am.

01:25:40.246 --> 01:25:43.366
So it feels like always
feels disrespectful to talk

01:25:43.366 --> 01:25:44.386
about them, but I will try

01:25:44.716 --> 01:25:45.046
Rupert Isaacson: indeed.

01:25:45.886 --> 01:25:48.346
But I think people need, people
need these conversations.

01:25:48.676 --> 01:25:48.796
I

01:25:48.796 --> 01:25:49.156
Emelie Cajsdotter: know.

01:25:49.456 --> 01:25:52.156
Rupert Isaacson: If we don't talk about
it, then it's also bullshit, right.

01:25:52.156 --> 01:25:55.216
Because either we're
relegating it to fantasy.

01:25:55.456 --> 01:25:55.876
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:25:55.876 --> 01:25:56.491
No, I, we're,

01:25:56.491 --> 01:26:00.046
Rupert Isaacson: we're, we're, we're
bringing this kind of superstitious Awe.

01:26:00.046 --> 01:26:00.106
Yeah.

01:26:00.496 --> 01:26:03.556
Which is often around the sort of
fairy thing that, that you're not

01:26:03.556 --> 01:26:04.996
allowed to refer to them directly.

01:26:04.996 --> 01:26:05.746
The good people.

01:26:05.746 --> 01:26:06.466
The, yeah.

01:26:06.826 --> 01:26:10.396
This people that you know, and therefore
they're sort of slightly threatening as

01:26:10.396 --> 01:26:13.006
like, what about just talking about them?

01:26:13.006 --> 01:26:14.771
Because we need, by

01:26:14.771 --> 01:26:18.036
Emelie Cajsdotter: the little ones
the, the small people fee are sharp.

01:26:18.036 --> 01:26:22.986
I think they need to be sharp
with humans because we tend to

01:26:22.986 --> 01:26:26.406
not really stick to our word

01:26:27.186 --> 01:26:27.906
Rupert Isaacson: well
because we, we, we, yeah.

01:26:27.906 --> 01:26:30.186
We, we bulldoze their
environments and create,

01:26:32.286 --> 01:26:36.186
Emelie Cajsdotter: if they decide
to go into really helping you, yes.

01:26:36.186 --> 01:26:39.636
They, they probably want to make sure
that you're actually going to turn up.

01:26:40.956 --> 01:26:41.046
Okay.

01:26:41.046 --> 01:26:46.276
We, we have a class here where the
entire content comes from them in

01:26:46.276 --> 01:26:50.236
relating to plant medicine from a
completely different perspective.

01:26:50.266 --> 01:26:54.706
Actually not using the plants like
we think about using plants and

01:26:54.706 --> 01:26:58.816
they teach much more about in the
relationship with the plant already

01:26:58.816 --> 01:27:00.616
there is a healing sort of Right.

01:27:01.076 --> 01:27:04.076
And, and there it's very
important to actually show up,

01:27:04.076 --> 01:27:06.776
to come on time to come on all.

01:27:07.526 --> 01:27:10.226
The different classes and not
just sort of seeing it as a,

01:27:10.856 --> 01:27:12.836
Rupert Isaacson: did you, did
you meet the same entities as

01:27:12.836 --> 01:27:15.686
individuals often, or was it always
a different individual every time?

01:27:16.006 --> 01:27:18.256
Emelie Cajsdotter: In this
particular class, it's the same one.

01:27:18.496 --> 01:27:20.716
Rupert Isaacson: No, but I'm talking
about back you in, in the forest.

01:27:20.806 --> 01:27:22.936
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, some
would be repetitively similar,

01:27:22.936 --> 01:27:24.586
the same and some would be new.

01:27:24.766 --> 01:27:27.286
Rupert Isaacson: So there would be
definitely relationships that Yes.

01:27:27.286 --> 01:27:27.856
Carried over.

01:27:27.856 --> 01:27:29.386
You knew the same entity.

01:27:29.536 --> 01:27:29.836
Yes.

01:27:29.836 --> 01:27:30.316
Over time.

01:27:31.006 --> 01:27:34.726
What was the longest running
relationship that you had there?

01:27:35.776 --> 01:27:37.836
Emelie Cajsdotter: That would've
been for a number of years?

01:27:37.886 --> 01:27:42.506
When for as long as this pony was
in the same area, though, I would

01:27:42.506 --> 01:27:44.156
be around the, in the same forests.

01:27:44.156 --> 01:27:47.456
Rupert Isaacson: I'm talking about
a particular individual being

01:27:47.786 --> 01:27:48.056
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:27:48.146 --> 01:27:48.296
Yes.

01:27:48.321 --> 01:27:48.541
Can

01:27:48.601 --> 01:27:51.626
Rupert Isaacson: can, can you talk to us
about a particular individual being that

01:27:51.626 --> 01:28:00.446
you related to over a number of years and
what the course of that relationship was?

01:28:01.046 --> 01:28:05.396
Because I think, let's say in, in like a
fairy story, the idea is you, you might

01:28:05.396 --> 01:28:11.096
have an encounter in the forest with
a supernatural being and it's usually

01:28:11.456 --> 01:28:19.616
either a one-off or with some sort of
test involved or some sort of relationship

01:28:19.616 --> 01:28:22.586
with some sort of wish granting or
showing you a quest and then gone.

01:28:23.336 --> 01:28:27.146
But very rarely do you read about
Cinderella just going open around

01:28:27.146 --> 01:28:29.096
for a cup of tea, you know, with.

01:28:29.531 --> 01:28:31.841
The nature spirits, you
know, for the next 30 years.

01:28:32.111 --> 01:28:32.381
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:28:32.591 --> 01:28:35.951
'cause the important test isn't
such a interesting story maybe.

01:28:36.371 --> 01:28:36.821
Rupert Isaacson: Right, exactly.

01:28:36.821 --> 01:28:38.591
So, but so, so I'm more interested, yeah.

01:28:38.591 --> 01:28:39.911
I'm interested in the relationship.

01:28:39.911 --> 01:28:40.571
I want to know,

01:28:42.851 --> 01:28:47.731
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm thinking about
one that I would consider male in, in

01:28:47.731 --> 01:28:53.281
the energy that would be helpful in
the, in the time where when Ude was

01:28:53.401 --> 01:28:58.481
directly, when her healing started
after the vet and stuff that would

01:28:58.481 --> 01:29:00.401
sort of show himself on and off.

01:29:00.461 --> 01:29:05.471
And the subject, and I'm, I'm really
trying to think about it now, was a

01:29:05.471 --> 01:29:08.231
lot about healing and helping animals.

01:29:08.951 --> 01:29:18.191
And the same here, I'm thinking about
one, there's also male type in a specific

01:29:18.191 --> 01:29:19.631
place where there are refer trees.

01:29:20.201 --> 01:29:24.281
And I don't know the number
of years on that one because

01:29:24.281 --> 01:29:25.331
I've been here for long now.

01:29:26.051 --> 01:29:33.491
And then the woman type one that
is designing the course for us,

01:29:33.491 --> 01:29:34.691
that's for a year and a half.

01:29:34.691 --> 01:29:35.861
That's a shorter one.

01:29:37.301 --> 01:29:40.961
Rupert Isaacson: The male ones.

01:29:41.141 --> 01:29:41.231
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.

01:29:41.471 --> 01:29:43.871
Rupert Isaacson: Were
coming out of stones, trees,

01:29:44.111 --> 01:29:44.441
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

01:29:45.041 --> 01:29:45.671
Rupert Isaacson: But which,

01:29:46.981 --> 01:29:47.821
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mainly trees.

01:29:48.481 --> 01:29:48.901
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:29:49.141 --> 01:29:50.371
Do you remember which tree?

01:29:50.701 --> 01:29:51.601
Which type of tree?

01:29:52.261 --> 01:29:52.501
Emelie Cajsdotter: Oh.

01:29:52.501 --> 01:29:56.581
And then there was the one who helped
with clar, like making it more open

01:29:56.581 --> 01:29:58.991
in this in the empathic communication.

01:29:58.991 --> 01:30:00.071
That was a juniper tree.

01:30:00.911 --> 01:30:01.241
Okay.

01:30:01.481 --> 01:30:02.011
Rupert Isaacson: Male or female

01:30:02.381 --> 01:30:02.731
Emelie Cajsdotter: trees?

01:30:03.216 --> 01:30:07.286
Male fur trees juniper trees.

01:30:07.466 --> 01:30:08.636
Pine trees.

01:30:09.236 --> 01:30:10.646
Rupert Isaacson: And they
could be male or female?

01:30:10.766 --> 01:30:11.426
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:30:12.056 --> 01:30:12.176
Okay.

01:30:14.216 --> 01:30:15.206
Rupert Isaacson: Spirits of water?

01:30:15.836 --> 01:30:16.316
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:30:17.906 --> 01:30:18.296
Yes.

01:30:18.626 --> 01:30:19.436
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about them.

01:30:19.666 --> 01:30:21.316
Emelie Cajsdotter: Like really playful and

01:30:24.616 --> 01:30:26.536
Like a sense of sort of water fairies.

01:30:27.676 --> 01:30:28.426
Rupert Isaacson: Male, female?

01:30:28.426 --> 01:30:28.786
Both.

01:30:29.176 --> 01:30:29.746
Emelie Cajsdotter: Both.

01:30:30.556 --> 01:30:32.206
A actually less of a gender

01:30:33.406 --> 01:30:33.916
Rupert Isaacson: and

01:30:34.036 --> 01:30:34.426
Emelie Cajsdotter: me.

01:30:34.576 --> 01:30:37.096
Rupert Isaacson: What would the
lesson normally be or the teaching

01:30:37.096 --> 01:30:39.136
or the interaction be with the water.

01:30:41.441 --> 01:30:41.561
I,

01:30:45.736 --> 01:30:49.546
Emelie Cajsdotter: I think there, there
are all these lessons that are with

01:30:49.546 --> 01:30:52.606
and through water as memory carrier.

01:30:53.536 --> 01:30:55.876
Rupert Isaacson: Memory carrier,
ah, liquid intelligence, right?

01:30:55.876 --> 01:30:55.936
Yeah.

01:30:56.716 --> 01:30:59.116
Emelie Cajsdotter: But that wouldn't
be them, that would be the water.

01:30:59.926 --> 01:31:00.256
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:31:00.556 --> 01:31:01.906
Emelie Cajsdotter: I think in a way

01:31:04.126 --> 01:31:06.886
they, they're so close to us.

01:31:07.711 --> 01:31:08.761
It's just like

01:31:10.861 --> 01:31:14.341
another dimension and a slightly
different intention maybe.

01:31:15.151 --> 01:31:17.941
They seem to be somehow less
dense than us, and their time

01:31:17.941 --> 01:31:19.261
seems slightly different.

01:31:20.251 --> 01:31:27.331
But I think not always when you meet them,
you are sort of targeted as their focus.

01:31:27.361 --> 01:31:32.581
It's like sometimes they would come out
and, and, and teach and share something

01:31:32.581 --> 01:31:36.481
because I would be worried about a sick
animal and I wouldn't know what to do

01:31:37.171 --> 01:31:39.661
and they would maybe know what to do.

01:31:40.231 --> 01:31:47.101
But it could also just be that we,
we we're both living here, they're

01:31:47.161 --> 01:31:52.501
living in the same stream that I'm
also living close to, and sometimes for

01:31:52.501 --> 01:31:55.381
some reason, we can interact and meet.

01:31:56.071 --> 01:32:01.391
But it doesn't necessarily involve
tests or quests or teachings.

01:32:01.391 --> 01:32:02.381
It, it can do.

01:32:02.721 --> 01:32:08.571
But I think more than that, it's like,
it's just, they're just there because they

01:32:08.571 --> 01:32:11.361
live their lives there just like we do.

01:32:11.831 --> 01:32:17.321
For some reason we, we've cut them out
of our way of experiencing reality.

01:32:18.581 --> 01:32:25.691
But, but maybe that's because we
relate to just one segment of time.

01:32:29.186 --> 01:32:30.506
Of time, space.

01:32:30.596 --> 01:32:31.046
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:32:31.046 --> 01:32:37.436
I'm, I'm So when you were, when you were
roaming around the forest as a young woman

01:32:37.616 --> 01:32:42.956
did you encounter other people who also
saw and interacted with these entities?

01:32:42.956 --> 01:32:44.696
Or were you the only one?

01:32:44.696 --> 01:32:44.756
No,

01:32:45.611 --> 01:32:47.756
Emelie Cajsdotter: I, I would
be the only one until I met

01:32:47.756 --> 01:32:49.136
Maori people in New Zealand.

01:32:49.136 --> 01:32:50.936
I would be quite alone on that

01:32:51.326 --> 01:32:53.306
Rupert Isaacson: because, 'cause
quite a lot of people in Scandinavia

01:32:53.336 --> 01:32:57.896
are still quite connected
to the land and the forest.

01:32:57.926 --> 01:33:02.666
Why do you think you, you were isolated
in that, that there weren't like

01:33:02.666 --> 01:33:06.326
a small community of people, like,
oh, you see them too, type thing.

01:33:08.156 --> 01:33:09.926
Emelie Cajsdotter: Maybe more
people saw them, but we didn't

01:33:09.926 --> 01:33:15.726
speak about it for some reason,
or because my life was so much

01:33:17.736 --> 01:33:18.546
in the city.

01:33:18.936 --> 01:33:19.326
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

01:33:20.586 --> 01:33:24.006
Who was the first person you confided to
that you were having these interactions?

01:33:24.576 --> 01:33:25.206
Your grandmother?

01:33:25.566 --> 01:33:26.346
Emelie Cajsdotter: My grandmother, yes.

01:33:26.766 --> 01:33:28.866
Rupert Isaacson: And she went,
oh yeah, that's totally normal.

01:33:29.256 --> 01:33:29.706
Yeah, I see.

01:33:29.706 --> 01:33:30.246
I see him all the time.

01:33:30.276 --> 01:33:30.636
Okay.

01:33:30.696 --> 01:33:33.726
So you had some sort of moral support,
some sort of validation with that?

01:33:33.861 --> 01:33:34.081
Yes.

01:33:34.101 --> 01:33:34.986
Did you tell your mother?

01:33:35.676 --> 01:33:35.886
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

01:33:36.216 --> 01:33:36.486
Okay.

01:33:37.176 --> 01:33:41.306
We, we almost didn't speak I ran
away from home at the age of 1516.

01:33:42.056 --> 01:33:43.556
We, we didn't communicate

01:33:43.621 --> 01:33:43.971
Rupert Isaacson: right.

01:33:44.031 --> 01:33:44.371
Got it.

01:33:44.471 --> 01:33:46.486
I'm so, but the grandmother there.

01:33:46.486 --> 01:33:48.166
And then what about friends?

01:33:48.166 --> 01:33:48.856
Did you tell them.

01:33:49.651 --> 01:33:50.491
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, probably did.

01:33:50.491 --> 01:33:50.881
Yes.

01:33:51.031 --> 01:33:51.781
Rupert Isaacson: And what did they say?

01:33:52.921 --> 01:33:54.271
Emelie Cajsdotter: They
didn't make a thing out of it,

01:33:55.531 --> 01:33:56.251
Rupert Isaacson: did some say?

01:33:56.251 --> 01:33:59.671
Please can introduce, I mean, I
would've been like, please introduce me.

01:33:59.671 --> 01:34:00.751
I'm, I'm, I would like,

01:34:00.961 --> 01:34:04.051
Emelie Cajsdotter: no, I can't, I
can't remember anyone saying that.

01:34:04.771 --> 01:34:06.601
Rupert Isaacson: I can't
imagine saying anything else.

01:34:06.601 --> 01:34:06.901
You know?

01:34:06.901 --> 01:34:07.351
I mean, it's like

01:34:07.561 --> 01:34:11.566
Emelie Cajsdotter: there is a, a
great interest in them now actually.

01:34:11.566 --> 01:34:11.846
Yeah.

01:34:11.901 --> 01:34:14.031
But it hasn't really been until now,

01:34:15.261 --> 01:34:19.341
Rupert Isaacson: you know, as I
remember being acutely aware of

01:34:20.631 --> 01:34:24.711
all sorts of energies around me or
through childhood and adolescent

01:34:24.711 --> 01:34:27.411
and occasionally glimpsing things.

01:34:27.566 --> 01:34:32.781
No, no sorts of interactions as you've
described, but glimpses and then, and

01:34:32.781 --> 01:34:38.391
feelings and emotions and feeling that
I should now go over there and, you

01:34:38.391 --> 01:34:43.431
know, indeed there would be something
over there, but not an entity if

01:34:43.431 --> 01:34:44.871
you like, an experience perhaps.

01:34:45.431 --> 01:34:51.061
But then it wasn't until I became
obviously drawn in with the sun and the

01:34:51.061 --> 01:34:57.431
bushman and all of that, that I got shown
certain things and but usually, but always

01:34:57.431 --> 01:34:58.781
through the intercession of a shaman.

01:34:59.561 --> 01:35:04.241
I'm just trying to think if I've,
I've had interactions with what I

01:35:04.241 --> 01:35:09.131
would imagine would be mischievous
ghosts and sprites and things.

01:35:09.136 --> 01:35:09.306
Mm-hmm.

01:35:09.586 --> 01:35:13.061
A bit, but not, particularly
in Ireland, but not

01:35:13.211 --> 01:35:14.531
Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm
not surprised about that

01:35:14.591 --> 01:35:16.961
Rupert Isaacson: and a couple
of us, but you know what I mean?

01:35:16.961 --> 01:35:20.171
So we all have, but it, it would've
been intriguing to me to say, if, you

01:35:20.171 --> 01:35:24.401
know, and I'm, I'm lucky enough, I know
I am gonna go into the forest with you

01:35:24.401 --> 01:35:26.711
in, in, in a, in a matter of weeks.

01:35:26.711 --> 01:35:27.791
So, fantastic.

01:35:28.091 --> 01:35:30.641
And I would like to be introduced
in whatever way, please.

01:35:30.641 --> 01:35:30.731
Mm-hmm.

01:35:31.031 --> 01:35:36.791
Because my feeling is that it's time
to have these conversations openly.

01:35:37.611 --> 01:35:44.751
I think we're, we're finally at a juncture
in our society where a conversation

01:35:44.751 --> 01:35:53.931
like this is not either dismissed
as fancy or delusion or psychosis.

01:35:54.351 --> 01:35:54.861
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, true.

01:35:54.921 --> 01:35:55.101
However,

01:35:55.671 --> 01:36:01.281
Rupert Isaacson: psychosis is, I
think, a ne a necessary and natural

01:36:01.641 --> 01:36:07.881
part of looking at reality in order
to see beyond linear dimension.

01:36:08.301 --> 01:36:13.221
The difficulty is how you, that we,
but now, you know, and now with people

01:36:13.221 --> 01:36:16.731
using psychoactive plants in our society
and that sort of thing, suddenly,

01:36:16.731 --> 01:36:20.151
suddenly people are allowed to have
these conversations because they're now

01:36:20.151 --> 01:36:23.541
seeing the same sorts of entities that,
oh, I did Ira and I saw that one too.

01:36:23.541 --> 01:36:26.511
And but, and this is now suddenly
post covid kind of entered the

01:36:26.511 --> 01:36:27.921
mainstream, but it's very recent.

01:36:28.341 --> 01:36:31.461
But I do feel that the,
that's why I'm asking these.

01:36:32.106 --> 01:36:33.696
Very direct sort of question.

01:36:33.701 --> 01:36:35.556
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, no, I, I
like the direct question and I don't

01:36:35.556 --> 01:36:36.696
Rupert Isaacson: want to
waste my time with it.

01:36:36.726 --> 01:36:37.806
Do you think it's real?

01:36:38.136 --> 01:36:44.736
I want to know what they said, what
they look like, what the intention is.

01:36:45.156 --> 01:36:45.876
Here's a question.

01:36:45.876 --> 01:36:48.486
Do you think more of them
are showing themselves now?

01:36:49.116 --> 01:36:54.276
Do you think that there's a, obviously
we've been destroying nature for

01:36:54.276 --> 01:36:59.316
a long time, but not quite on
the level that we are currently.

01:36:59.316 --> 01:36:59.376
Yeah.

01:36:59.706 --> 01:37:00.696
Do they have an agenda?

01:37:00.696 --> 01:37:06.036
Do they have a, would they be fine
if we cut the forest down anyway?

01:37:06.516 --> 01:37:07.056
No.

01:37:07.976 --> 01:37:09.866
Emelie Cajsdotter: They wouldn't
be fine if we cut it down anyway.

01:37:09.866 --> 01:37:11.756
But it wouldn't make them give up.

01:37:11.761 --> 01:37:13.346
Rupert Isaacson: Would they,
would they cease to exist?

01:37:13.346 --> 01:37:15.716
If, if, if you're a furry
spirit and you cut the fur tree

01:37:15.716 --> 01:37:16.886
down, do you cease to exist?

01:37:17.366 --> 01:37:17.696
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

01:37:17.696 --> 01:37:18.926
You don't cease to exist.

01:37:19.406 --> 01:37:26.366
You might not live, have that place
as a base, but your intention to help

01:37:26.366 --> 01:37:29.156
restoring nature would be enhanced almost.

01:37:30.176 --> 01:37:31.616
Rupert Isaacson: Why do
they care about nature?

01:37:31.616 --> 01:37:33.356
I mean, you could say,
okay, well, they live in it.

01:37:33.356 --> 01:37:35.456
They are it, but I think
why do they give a shit?

01:37:35.456 --> 01:37:38.036
I mean, if, if we destroy
ourselves in nature, presumably

01:37:38.036 --> 01:37:39.296
nature will come back and

01:37:39.296 --> 01:37:42.206
Emelie Cajsdotter: if they
can't do anything else,

01:37:42.776 --> 01:37:42.956
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

01:37:43.406 --> 01:37:44.816
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's, it's like,

01:37:48.056 --> 01:37:48.956
Rupert Isaacson: like a mother's love.

01:37:49.466 --> 01:37:49.706
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:37:49.706 --> 01:37:52.676
It seems like the source
of this life, if you.

01:37:53.981 --> 01:38:00.801
Of any story from any animal
plant forest spirit ancestor it

01:38:00.801 --> 01:38:10.701
seems like whoever created this
did do it with a loving intent.

01:38:11.301 --> 01:38:11.901
That was gonna be

01:38:11.901 --> 01:38:12.681
Rupert Isaacson: my question.

01:38:12.681 --> 01:38:15.201
It are they manifestations of love?

01:38:15.921 --> 01:38:16.521
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:38:17.321 --> 01:38:22.721
In a way, I think it seems
like the intent is love.

01:38:22.841 --> 01:38:30.821
And if we are connected to that source,
that intent is living through us,

01:38:31.486 --> 01:38:38.801
regardless if I am a human or a dog
or a fairy or the furry or whatever.

01:38:38.801 --> 01:38:46.841
And then it seems like whatever goes
against these care for the living

01:38:46.841 --> 01:38:55.181
space, it's like, it seems like we, in
a linear society, we, we care so much

01:38:55.181 --> 01:38:59.681
about development that we're going
to develop spiritually, and then we

01:38:59.681 --> 01:39:03.041
will get more enlightened, and then
eventually we will never be reborn again.

01:39:03.041 --> 01:39:07.031
And whatsoever you never hear those
stories from, from anyone else.

01:39:07.271 --> 01:39:10.661
What you hear is that the miracle.

01:39:11.471 --> 01:39:13.811
That life is even possible is the meaning.

01:39:13.811 --> 01:39:16.901
So you don't need anything beyond life.

01:39:17.291 --> 01:39:23.171
So to help create and uphold the
living space is like the most

01:39:23.171 --> 01:39:25.271
sacred thing you could ever do.

01:39:25.751 --> 01:39:28.991
And to not do that just
doesn't make sense at all.

01:39:29.771 --> 01:39:37.571
So if, if, if a human somehow goes
against maybe with an immature version

01:39:37.571 --> 01:39:41.871
of a creative potential we start
to destroy things around us instead

01:39:42.381 --> 01:39:46.371
then they don't hate us for that.

01:39:46.861 --> 01:39:53.431
But obviously we are in great need of
help because if we are preventing living

01:39:53.431 --> 01:40:02.431
space from expanding and, and for life
to be lived in its own fullness, then.

01:40:03.106 --> 01:40:06.676
Then maybe we are the
ones to reach out to.

01:40:06.736 --> 01:40:11.416
And, and, and with our hierarchical
way of seeing ourselves as the sort of

01:40:11.686 --> 01:40:17.276
crown of creation we might think that
every, everyone else who is alive has no

01:40:17.276 --> 01:40:21.716
consciousness, no awareness of anything,
and all in the end, aspire to be human.

01:40:22.296 --> 01:40:24.636
And, and I like to differ.

01:40:24.636 --> 01:40:27.486
They don't judge us, but
they also don't praise us.

01:40:27.876 --> 01:40:33.126
But we obviously we are a bit
lost and we need all the help

01:40:33.126 --> 01:40:34.956
we can get in being included.

01:40:34.956 --> 01:40:35.316
Again,

01:40:36.156 --> 01:40:39.226
Rupert Isaacson: are these entities
ageless or do they like us?

01:40:39.226 --> 01:40:40.006
Do they live and die?

01:40:40.516 --> 01:40:43.316
Emelie Cajsdotter: They, they seem
to live and die but maybe in a

01:40:43.316 --> 01:40:46.166
slightly different time span of things

01:40:46.856 --> 01:40:47.816
Rupert Isaacson: give us like

01:40:48.656 --> 01:40:50.816
Emelie Cajsdotter: maybe aging slower.

01:40:51.386 --> 01:40:51.776
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:40:52.136 --> 01:40:54.311
But is there a point at
which, say for example, they

01:40:54.311 --> 01:40:56.396
Emelie Cajsdotter: can, they look
like the same age forever, but I

01:40:56.396 --> 01:40:59.276
can still see that some of them
look old and some of them look young

01:40:59.516 --> 01:41:02.396
Rupert Isaacson: and do some, do they say,
do some of them say, I'm about to pass?

01:41:02.396 --> 01:41:04.376
Or do others say, I've only just got here?

01:41:04.976 --> 01:41:05.636
Emelie Cajsdotter: Hmm.

01:41:06.056 --> 01:41:07.016
I never asked.

01:41:07.616 --> 01:41:08.156
Rupert Isaacson: Would you?

01:41:09.026 --> 01:41:09.296
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:41:09.296 --> 01:41:09.776
Could I know,

01:41:11.282 --> 01:41:15.872
Rupert Isaacson: you know, I, in this
podcast, I want to get through your bio

01:41:15.872 --> 01:41:18.722
and we haven't even gotten to, I know
that, you know, you spent time in the

01:41:18.722 --> 01:41:20.642
Middle East and, and, and then come back.

01:41:20.642 --> 01:41:20.912
Yeah.

01:41:22.082 --> 01:41:22.682
Emelie Cajsdotter: Sequence,

01:41:23.162 --> 01:41:23.492
Rupert Isaacson: right.

01:41:23.492 --> 01:41:26.612
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna
hold the fairies for now.

01:41:27.632 --> 01:41:31.742
I'm gonna request that we do a
separate podcast, just about that.

01:41:32.497 --> 01:41:32.787
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:41:33.307 --> 01:41:35.732
' Rupert Isaacson: cause that's its
own universe and there's a lot of

01:41:35.732 --> 01:41:40.062
things I would like to add and share.

01:41:40.602 --> 01:41:40.962
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.

01:41:41.202 --> 01:41:42.822
Rupert Isaacson: Particularly
in terms of time, things in the

01:41:42.822 --> 01:41:45.402
Kalahari and so on and so on.

01:41:45.402 --> 01:41:45.612
Curious

01:41:45.972 --> 01:41:46.332
Emelie Cajsdotter: about that.

01:41:46.392 --> 01:41:48.462
Rupert Isaacson: I think if we do
that, that's gonna be the entire

01:41:48.462 --> 01:41:50.112
podcast and it should actually.

01:41:50.532 --> 01:41:50.652
Mm-hmm.

01:41:50.842 --> 01:41:51.472
And I'm intrigued.

01:41:51.472 --> 01:41:53.542
I want to do one on ferry so bad.

01:41:53.542 --> 01:41:53.872
Please.

01:41:53.872 --> 01:41:54.322
Can we?

01:41:54.837 --> 01:41:55.218
Yes, we can.

01:41:55.552 --> 01:41:55.612
Okay.

01:41:55.612 --> 01:41:56.002
Alright.

01:41:56.212 --> 01:41:58.102
So, okay.

01:41:58.102 --> 01:42:04.372
You're talking to, oh, one
last thing, it Scandinavia.

01:42:04.442 --> 01:42:06.542
And I've, I've gotta ask trolls.

01:42:07.412 --> 01:42:07.772
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:42:07.772 --> 01:42:11.042
Not, not the sort of fairytale
trolls I would never have seen,

01:42:12.002 --> 01:42:14.222
Rupert Isaacson: but would you
say that there's a troll thing

01:42:14.222 --> 01:42:16.862
that's different to the other
entities that you're talking about?

01:42:16.867 --> 01:42:16.927
Yes.

01:42:17.282 --> 01:42:17.552
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:42:17.552 --> 01:42:19.232
But not, not, it wouldn't be bad.

01:42:19.232 --> 01:42:21.932
It would just be sort of big and more,

01:42:22.952 --> 01:42:23.792
Rupert Isaacson: more mountainy.

01:42:24.062 --> 01:42:24.272
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:42:25.832 --> 01:42:30.602
Rupert Isaacson: Not ancestral
memories passed down by farming people

01:42:30.602 --> 01:42:34.892
of hunter gatherers who were there
beforehand and perhaps wiped out or

01:42:34.922 --> 01:42:38.402
consigned to the forest, who then
become the troll in the imagination.

01:42:38.822 --> 01:42:40.862
The troll actually is the nature spirit.

01:42:41.282 --> 01:42:43.722
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I
would believe both are possible.

01:42:43.992 --> 01:42:44.322
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:42:44.322 --> 01:42:46.152
So perhaps some amalgamation of the two?

01:42:46.362 --> 01:42:46.782
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:42:47.322 --> 01:42:50.502
I, I think a lot of things are,
especially when they're being told about

01:42:50.952 --> 01:42:51.162
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

01:42:52.002 --> 01:42:54.852
Emelie Cajsdotter: because, because
with the empathic into being,

01:42:54.852 --> 01:42:59.502
you experience something and then
you pass it on and in the past

01:42:59.502 --> 01:42:59.857
Rupert Isaacson: and imagine things.

01:43:00.952 --> 01:43:01.192
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:43:01.192 --> 01:43:05.362
And, and in the passing on it will
go through my entire conditioning.

01:43:05.482 --> 01:43:05.692
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:43:05.692 --> 01:43:06.082
Got it.

01:43:06.362 --> 01:43:09.182
Emelie Cajsdotter: Whether I like it or
not, and I can try to be as true as I

01:43:09.182 --> 01:43:15.692
can to the source, but I also have to
respect that I am also my genetic self.

01:43:15.692 --> 01:43:15.932
Right.

01:43:15.932 --> 01:43:18.122
Rupert Isaacson: And I, I guess if
everything is light and everything is

01:43:18.122 --> 01:43:23.162
love, and everything is energy, then we're
going to see that through the prism of

01:43:23.162 --> 01:43:26.852
the lens that we are, which means that
we'll interpret it to look like this

01:43:26.852 --> 01:43:28.352
or to look like that, or to say this,

01:43:28.397 --> 01:43:28.977
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes, they have.

01:43:29.737 --> 01:43:32.522
And how they keep, keep
telling their stories.

01:43:35.702 --> 01:43:38.102
Rupert Isaacson: I am so tempted to
just go down this rabbit hole right now.

01:43:38.642 --> 01:43:38.792
Troll.

01:43:40.227 --> 01:43:41.012
I'm, I'm sorry.

01:43:41.192 --> 01:43:43.927
It's, I really wanna talk about
you, but now it's like, well,

01:43:43.927 --> 01:43:44.882
I wanna talk about trolls.

01:43:46.862 --> 01:43:50.492
What are their stories quickly
before we go back to you.

01:43:50.642 --> 01:43:52.472
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, but
I think as humans, we always

01:43:52.472 --> 01:43:56.702
think that we hold the sort of
centerpiece of, of, of the stories.

01:43:56.702 --> 01:43:57.487
And, and well, we are

01:43:57.492 --> 01:43:58.622
Rupert Isaacson: the
storytelling ape, right?

01:43:58.622 --> 01:43:59.222
That is us.

01:43:59.282 --> 01:43:59.432
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:43:59.432 --> 01:44:04.392
And, and we are the sort of we interpret
everything else, but we hold the sort

01:44:04.392 --> 01:44:09.672
of facts, and we don't, I mean, they
would have their ancestry lines and

01:44:09.852 --> 01:44:14.382
stories on how they got to earth and,
and the role that they're playing

01:44:14.382 --> 01:44:15.882
and what they tell their children.

01:44:16.572 --> 01:44:16.932
Right.

01:44:16.962 --> 01:44:18.132
Which would affect,

01:44:18.192 --> 01:44:21.522
Rupert Isaacson: we've got to revisit
this 'cause everything you say.

01:44:21.522 --> 01:44:23.082
Then I say, well, what are
they telling their children?

01:44:23.082 --> 01:44:23.982
What are their stories?

01:44:23.982 --> 01:44:24.972
How did they get to earth?

01:44:25.032 --> 01:44:26.142
What do they think about aliens?

01:44:26.382 --> 01:44:26.592
You know?

01:44:31.632 --> 01:44:35.592
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, I think it's like
we, we live a, a modern human being.

01:44:35.592 --> 01:44:39.182
We have a very very
limited experience of time.

01:44:39.182 --> 01:44:43.472
I mean, we stick to one version
and I mean, it's difficult enough,

01:44:43.472 --> 01:44:46.592
so you can easily see how that
would feel a full lifetime.

01:44:46.592 --> 01:44:48.722
But I still think we're,

01:44:50.797 --> 01:44:51.212
I Yeah.

01:44:51.212 --> 01:44:51.392
No,

01:44:51.392 --> 01:44:52.142
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I agree.

01:44:52.142 --> 01:44:56.192
I'm, I, I, I'm loving, privileged
to live with people a bit who

01:44:56.522 --> 01:44:58.352
are absolutely of the place.

01:44:59.222 --> 01:45:02.612
Who do not see themselves as the
top of a hierarchy in nature.

01:45:02.612 --> 01:45:07.112
Who that I do know that that's
the authentic human way to be.

01:45:07.112 --> 01:45:09.692
And that's honestly the
only way to be happy.

01:45:09.692 --> 01:45:11.552
Because to be inauthentic
is to be unhappy.

01:45:11.552 --> 01:45:11.822
Right.

01:45:12.002 --> 01:45:15.332
And we know that in our culture,
we are desperately unhappy.

01:45:15.602 --> 01:45:16.022
Emelie Cajsdotter: We are.

01:45:16.312 --> 01:45:19.762
Rupert Isaacson: Is, is why aren't
these, why aren't these entities

01:45:19.762 --> 01:45:21.142
showing themselves to everybody?

01:45:21.142 --> 01:45:23.302
Wouldn't it just be easier if
they just showed up in the living

01:45:23.302 --> 01:45:26.722
room constantly and like, boy
lads out there, plant a tree.

01:45:26.722 --> 01:45:27.052
Come on.

01:45:27.232 --> 01:45:28.072
Emelie Cajsdotter: But maybe they do.

01:45:28.912 --> 01:45:29.362
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:45:29.692 --> 01:45:30.712
Emelie Cajsdotter: I mean,
maybe it's not they, do they,

01:45:31.222 --> 01:45:32.902
Rupert Isaacson: like, do they walk
around your living room or do you have

01:45:32.902 --> 01:45:34.192
to go into the forest to see them?

01:45:34.612 --> 01:45:36.592
Emelie Cajsdotter: I wouldn't say that
they tend to be in the living room.

01:45:36.592 --> 01:45:38.572
They tend to be in nature.

01:45:38.962 --> 01:45:39.202
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:45:39.382 --> 01:45:39.952
Quite close.

01:45:39.952 --> 01:45:41.632
But your, your living room
is not far from nature.

01:45:41.632 --> 01:45:41.752
Right.

01:45:41.767 --> 01:45:42.257
Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly.

01:45:42.472 --> 01:45:42.862
Exactly.

01:45:42.862 --> 01:45:44.122
So they, they would be around,

01:45:44.452 --> 01:45:45.862
Rupert Isaacson: is there
anyone around you right now?

01:45:46.912 --> 01:45:47.452
Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm, no.

01:45:47.452 --> 01:45:48.022
Not in here.

01:45:48.022 --> 01:45:48.322
No.

01:45:50.332 --> 01:45:50.933
Rupert Isaacson: If there was a,

01:45:51.087 --> 01:45:52.882
Emelie Cajsdotter: in the,
around the barn Just before

01:45:53.482 --> 01:45:53.692
Rupert Isaacson: there were,

01:45:54.472 --> 01:45:54.712
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.

01:45:55.192 --> 01:45:55.882
Rupert Isaacson: What did they say?

01:45:55.932 --> 01:45:58.452
Emelie Cajsdotter: They, they
were helping out with chickens.

01:45:58.872 --> 01:46:00.102
Rupert Isaacson: What were
they doing with the chickens?

01:46:00.592 --> 01:46:03.652
Emelie Cajsdotter: It seems like a lot
of things that we think is happening

01:46:03.652 --> 01:46:06.922
by themselves, like leaves moving

01:46:07.372 --> 01:46:11.157
cleaning, helping water it's,
it's like all these things that

01:46:11.157 --> 01:46:15.297
we think is just sort of randomly
happening, like in a machinery.

01:46:15.302 --> 01:46:15.612
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:46:16.107 --> 01:46:17.397
Emelie Cajsdotter: They
seem to be involved in

01:46:17.817 --> 01:46:19.707
Rupert Isaacson: What were they
doing with the chickens specifically?

01:46:20.382 --> 01:46:23.172
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, the chicken
barn is, is just about to be cleansed.

01:46:23.172 --> 01:46:26.262
So they were just around some
chickens that are a little

01:46:26.262 --> 01:46:30.132
bit weaker and sort of moving

01:46:30.882 --> 01:46:31.272
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:46:31.602 --> 01:46:32.712
Emelie Cajsdotter: Things
around accordingly.

01:46:32.982 --> 01:46:35.202
Rupert Isaacson: Man, I gotta,
we, we gotta revisit this.

01:46:35.252 --> 01:46:37.082
We've gotta revisit this a lot.

01:46:37.772 --> 01:46:38.072
Okay.

01:46:38.072 --> 01:46:45.332
Listeners, we are going to, I'm not gonna
let Emily get away with not talking to

01:46:45.332 --> 01:46:51.422
us in depth about fairies and trolls and
these 'cause I mean, the thought of having

01:46:51.422 --> 01:46:53.282
to live without that is just too painful.

01:46:53.552 --> 01:46:53.702
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, I know.

01:46:54.122 --> 01:46:54.657
But let's,

01:46:54.872 --> 01:46:58.282
Rupert Isaacson: let's just move on
now in your life so you're dancing

01:46:58.282 --> 01:47:01.162
samba, you're talking to fairies,
you're giving acupuncture to your

01:47:01.162 --> 01:47:03.442
horse, you're becoming a biologist

01:47:06.652 --> 01:47:06.772
Emelie Cajsdotter: horse.

01:47:06.772 --> 01:47:07.042
Why not?

01:47:09.472 --> 01:47:09.652
Yeah.

01:47:09.652 --> 01:47:11.032
Rupert Isaacson: What happens next?

01:47:11.332 --> 01:47:12.262
Now, you're a young woman.

01:47:12.262 --> 01:47:13.822
You head out into the world and

01:47:14.242 --> 01:47:14.482
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:47:15.382 --> 01:47:17.842
Rupert Isaacson: The pony
retires, by the way, dies.

01:47:18.152 --> 01:47:18.602
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, no.

01:47:18.752 --> 01:47:19.592
The pony is there.

01:47:19.622 --> 01:47:21.962
The pony lives until the age of 36.

01:47:21.962 --> 01:47:22.172
Perfect.

01:47:22.742 --> 01:47:26.552
And may And, and, and, and is
the one who is founding this

01:47:26.552 --> 01:47:27.692
whole sanctuary before she dies.

01:47:27.992 --> 01:47:28.682
Okay, got it.

01:47:28.892 --> 01:47:29.102
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:47:29.102 --> 01:47:29.402
So she,

01:47:29.402 --> 01:47:32.642
Emelie Cajsdotter: so her, her
dream is fulfilled when she dies.

01:47:32.642 --> 01:47:34.112
She is very content.

01:47:35.222 --> 01:47:35.342
Rupert Isaacson: Super.

01:47:35.642 --> 01:47:39.362
Okay, so, so take us now.

01:47:40.292 --> 01:47:42.482
You're at university, what happens next?

01:47:42.572 --> 01:47:43.262
Emelie Cajsdotter: Not university.

01:47:43.262 --> 01:47:44.642
It's like a college thing.

01:47:45.002 --> 01:47:45.332
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.

01:47:45.512 --> 01:47:47.102
Emelie Cajsdotter: I realize
that university will say

01:47:47.102 --> 01:47:47.642
Rupert Isaacson: potato.

01:47:47.702 --> 01:47:47.852
Yeah.

01:47:47.952 --> 01:47:50.472
Emelie Cajsdotter: Because the
subjects I'm into is not there, so.

01:47:50.502 --> 01:47:50.772
Okay.

01:47:51.352 --> 01:47:54.532
And I'm not really very good
at sitting still indoors.

01:47:54.922 --> 01:47:57.142
It totally actually does not work at all.

01:47:58.072 --> 01:48:02.922
What happens is that or the next
thing I guess that happens is

01:48:02.922 --> 01:48:05.732
that my grandmother kills herself.

01:48:05.822 --> 01:48:05.912
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:48:06.712 --> 01:48:14.492
Emelie Cajsdotter: When, no, at
some point since I was very young I

01:48:14.492 --> 01:48:19.552
always felt that I I couldn't really
recognize myself in the mirror.

01:48:19.552 --> 01:48:20.752
It was a bit confusing.

01:48:21.172 --> 01:48:25.402
I should be, have red or black hair
and it didn't make sense that I was

01:48:25.402 --> 01:48:30.982
blonde at that time and I knew that I
had some sort of connection to Ireland,

01:48:30.982 --> 01:48:32.422
so I knew that I had to go there.

01:48:33.022 --> 01:48:33.922
Rupert Isaacson: How did you know that?

01:48:34.252 --> 01:48:35.032
Emelie Cajsdotter: I just knew

01:48:35.392 --> 01:48:35.782
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:48:36.772 --> 01:48:37.792
Emelie Cajsdotter: That it's there.

01:48:37.792 --> 01:48:40.012
There is something about
Ireland that I have to visit.

01:48:41.017 --> 01:48:43.507
So my grandmother would naturally
say, oh, maybe you have a past

01:48:43.507 --> 01:48:45.367
life there, so could be normal.

01:48:45.367 --> 01:48:45.457
Well,

01:48:45.457 --> 01:48:48.697
Rupert Isaacson: also from my point of
view, actually, I mean, we know that

01:48:48.697 --> 01:48:52.717
all of us living between the North
Sea, the Baltic, the Irish Sea, the

01:48:52.747 --> 01:48:56.347
Northwest Atlantic, we're basically
all the same tribal folk who've been,

01:48:56.737 --> 01:48:57.127
Emelie Cajsdotter: we are

01:48:57.247 --> 01:48:58.537
Rupert Isaacson: going back
and forth and back and forth.

01:48:58.537 --> 01:48:59.647
So you think, oh, I'm from Sweden.

01:48:59.647 --> 01:49:00.637
That's so far from Ireland.

01:49:00.637 --> 01:49:01.717
It's like, no, it's not, you know?

01:49:02.197 --> 01:49:02.497
Yeah.

01:49:02.497 --> 01:49:04.957
It, it, people were traveling
back and forth and we're all

01:49:04.957 --> 01:49:06.517
Viking Kelts sort of thing.

01:49:06.517 --> 01:49:07.597
So pre presume.

01:49:07.657 --> 01:49:09.337
Okay, so let's say it's in your ancestry.

01:49:09.877 --> 01:49:10.057
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:49:10.057 --> 01:49:15.547
Somehow it's in my ancestry and I
go to Ireland and, and hitchhike

01:49:15.547 --> 01:49:18.427
around Ireland at, I think I'm 16.

01:49:18.997 --> 01:49:19.297
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:49:19.297 --> 01:49:19.327
Or

01:49:19.627 --> 01:49:22.247
Emelie Cajsdotter: 17 maximum 16 maybe.

01:49:23.087 --> 01:49:28.187
And that is a very good experience
because I begin to realize that

01:49:28.187 --> 01:49:30.347
I can trust my own feet sort of.

01:49:30.827 --> 01:49:31.037
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:49:32.177 --> 01:49:35.237
Emelie Cajsdotter: And maybe that is what
my grandmother is picking up on because

01:49:35.237 --> 01:49:40.847
she has made a promise to my father to
look after me, and maybe she feels that

01:49:40.847 --> 01:49:42.197
she doesn't have to look after me anymore.

01:49:42.197 --> 01:49:42.647
I dunno.

01:49:42.847 --> 01:49:49.277
But she tries to kill herself after
an argument with my grandfather.

01:49:49.572 --> 01:49:49.862
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:49:51.062 --> 01:49:54.122
Emelie Cajsdotter: That I think
deeply puts her in a situation of

01:49:54.662 --> 01:49:57.722
questioning her whole life and.

01:49:59.162 --> 01:50:04.862
Again, if we look at the women in that
side of the family, they are upper middle

01:50:04.862 --> 01:50:13.562
class, highly intelligent, and have
no area to express themselves at all.

01:50:14.802 --> 01:50:17.362
They are housewives and they hate it.

01:50:18.362 --> 01:50:23.522
Her mother was the first woman in Sweden
who studied to become a doctor then.

01:50:23.522 --> 01:50:24.752
Not a nurse, but a doctor.

01:50:24.752 --> 01:50:30.572
Then she married someone and well,
she was in the class where the first

01:50:30.572 --> 01:50:32.312
two in women, so there would be a few.

01:50:32.762 --> 01:50:37.172
And then her husband, she got married,
her husband forbade her to continue the

01:50:37.172 --> 01:50:44.582
studies, and she was then left with this
husband, no education, lots of kids.

01:50:44.612 --> 01:50:48.242
And eventually she divorced in
a time when no one did that.

01:50:48.487 --> 01:50:49.742
Rupert Isaacson: This is
your great-grandmother?

01:50:49.862 --> 01:50:50.402
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:50:50.762 --> 01:50:55.622
So her dream is unfulfilled in a
way, and that is passed on to my

01:50:55.622 --> 01:50:57.392
grandmother's dream who is unfulfilled.

01:50:57.392 --> 01:50:58.982
And she ends up in the same situation.

01:50:59.462 --> 01:51:07.442
The only story that is possible to
embody is the housewife outline.

01:51:08.342 --> 01:51:11.642
And although she's doing this healing
and all these other things, she,

01:51:12.152 --> 01:51:16.682
she has other dreams and she has
this growing bitterness, I would

01:51:16.682 --> 01:51:18.032
say, that I could feel from her.

01:51:18.962 --> 01:51:22.292
And she puts her entire
effort into her family.

01:51:22.292 --> 01:51:22.772
And

01:51:22.777 --> 01:51:23.337
Rupert Isaacson: what was her husband?

01:51:23.552 --> 01:51:24.542
What did your grandfather do?

01:51:24.852 --> 01:51:27.322
Emelie Cajsdotter: He was
an introvert professionally.

01:51:27.652 --> 01:51:27.832
Yeah.

01:51:27.892 --> 01:51:28.972
He was some sort of, yeah.

01:51:29.122 --> 01:51:30.532
He was a professional introvert.

01:51:30.982 --> 01:51:34.222
He was a, in, in a, he
was some sort of lawyer.

01:51:34.552 --> 01:51:34.702
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:51:35.242 --> 01:51:35.932
Emelie Cajsdotter: All in the head.

01:51:36.067 --> 01:51:36.487
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:51:36.627 --> 01:51:40.732
Emelie Cajsdotter: And he was a
really good at playing the violin.

01:51:41.872 --> 01:51:45.852
Now, in, in an argument my grandmother
forbade him to play violin, so

01:51:45.852 --> 01:51:49.992
he bought a cottage up in the
mountains outside of Gothenburg

01:51:49.992 --> 01:51:51.912
where he would go and play violin.

01:51:51.912 --> 01:51:52.332
And then why would

01:51:52.332 --> 01:51:53.892
Rupert Isaacson: she forbid
him from playing violin?

01:51:54.312 --> 01:51:56.442
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well,
there are so many questions.

01:51:56.442 --> 01:52:02.772
I guess when you begin to
not live your story, you

01:52:03.642 --> 01:52:03.702
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:52:03.702 --> 01:52:03.705
Want other people.

01:52:03.705 --> 01:52:04.062
Do I prevent

01:52:04.242 --> 01:52:05.592
Emelie Cajsdotter: others
from doing the same?

01:52:05.592 --> 01:52:06.972
It's my, maybe my only

01:52:07.212 --> 01:52:10.007
Rupert Isaacson: Did he prevent her
from having a career or anything,

01:52:10.067 --> 01:52:11.247
or was it just that she felt,

01:52:11.647 --> 01:52:12.007
Emelie Cajsdotter: I don't know.

01:52:12.287 --> 01:52:16.122
I, I don't know if he personally
did or if it was just a patriarchal

01:52:16.122 --> 01:52:18.552
society and he became a face of that.

01:52:20.592 --> 01:52:21.072
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:52:21.282 --> 01:52:23.202
Emelie Cajsdotter: I would've
been too young to 'cause by,

01:52:23.202 --> 01:52:29.442
Rupert Isaacson: by the sort of 1960s when
your grandmother would've been in, say,

01:52:29.442 --> 01:52:35.287
her sixties or fifties, surely that was
breaking apart post World War ii, and,

01:52:35.947 --> 01:52:39.312
Emelie Cajsdotter: but I think it's
all these other things, our self image

01:52:40.062 --> 01:52:40.212
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

01:52:40.212 --> 01:52:40.272
Our

01:52:41.292 --> 01:52:44.742
Emelie Cajsdotter: ancestral stories
that continue until they don't.

01:52:44.742 --> 01:52:45.372
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:52:46.452 --> 01:52:47.592
Emelie Cajsdotter: All of these things.

01:52:48.342 --> 01:52:49.122
An argument.

01:52:49.122 --> 01:52:54.072
It turned out that my grandfather, she
put all her efforts into the family.

01:52:54.702 --> 01:52:54.732
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:52:55.332 --> 01:52:57.132
Emelie Cajsdotter: Trying
to create a meaning.

01:52:57.277 --> 01:52:57.697
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:52:58.127 --> 01:53:00.562
Emelie Cajsdotter:
Somehow is my conclusion.

01:53:00.562 --> 01:53:03.412
And it turned out that he
had a love affair years back.

01:53:03.472 --> 01:53:03.592
Mm-hmm.

01:53:05.092 --> 01:53:09.502
And somehow that, although that wasn't
such a big thing, it wouldn't be

01:53:09.502 --> 01:53:18.272
such a big thing by my standards, but
somehow it cracked a hole and made

01:53:18.272 --> 01:53:21.662
everything just lose its value for her.

01:53:23.007 --> 01:53:23.897
Rupert Isaacson: Even at that age.

01:53:23.897 --> 01:53:24.897
Even at that, even

01:53:24.897 --> 01:53:27.512
Emelie Cajsdotter: at that age,
she was 81 when she killed herself.

01:53:28.462 --> 01:53:32.212
So she did a full attempt
and my grandfather found her.

01:53:33.002 --> 01:53:36.722
He, she made him promise not to save
her, but he couldn't keep that promise.

01:53:36.722 --> 01:53:42.642
So she survived and she was naturally
she was in the hospital being

01:53:42.762 --> 01:53:48.372
guarded by a nurse because they
considered her so suicidal that

01:53:48.372 --> 01:53:49.632
they didn't dare to leave her alone.

01:53:50.802 --> 01:53:53.832
And all she wanted was to die.

01:53:54.192 --> 01:53:59.052
And me, my mother and grandfather
was called to her bed and the

01:53:59.052 --> 01:54:02.892
doctor said, you have to make
a decision as her closest kin.

01:54:03.672 --> 01:54:08.302
We can keep guarding her
for as long as she lives.

01:54:08.362 --> 01:54:10.372
But that would mean that
we force her to live.

01:54:11.522 --> 01:54:15.272
If we let her out from here,
most likely she will try again,

01:54:15.302 --> 01:54:16.742
and maybe she will succeed.

01:54:17.652 --> 01:54:19.242
And the choice has to be yours.

01:54:19.302 --> 01:54:23.052
And without even looking at each
other, and I mean, we are not people

01:54:23.052 --> 01:54:26.532
that would communicate the rest of
the time, so it's not that we get on.

01:54:27.472 --> 01:54:32.127
But we all simultaneously, I'm 17 at the
time say that we have to let her loose.

01:54:32.127 --> 01:54:34.047
We can't force her to live.

01:54:34.047 --> 01:54:36.177
It's undignified, it's impossible.

01:54:37.807 --> 01:54:43.147
So it wasn't that many months after
that she succeeded in killing herself.

01:54:44.197 --> 01:54:46.717
Rupert Isaacson: And your grandfather
then lived alone for the rest of his life.

01:54:46.717 --> 01:54:46.777
My

01:54:46.777 --> 01:54:50.947
Emelie Cajsdotter: grandfather, after
this happened, also being blamed for

01:54:50.947 --> 01:54:57.577
the whole thing in a letter became
blind only days after she died and was

01:54:57.577 --> 01:55:02.257
taken to an old people's home where
he sadly ended up starving to death

01:55:02.287 --> 01:55:06.997
because he couldn't live with himself
after this event and also was not in a

01:55:06.997 --> 01:55:08.677
position of being able to kill himself.

01:55:08.677 --> 01:55:13.587
So he died very slowly in
a state of deep suffering.

01:55:13.822 --> 01:55:14.602
Rupert Isaacson: He just stopped eating.

01:55:15.072 --> 01:55:15.362
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

01:55:15.792 --> 01:55:16.082
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:55:16.932 --> 01:55:17.352
Course.

01:55:17.412 --> 01:55:18.152
So poor people.

01:55:18.222 --> 01:55:18.512
Gosh.

01:55:18.772 --> 01:55:18.992
Yes.

01:55:19.252 --> 01:55:19.472
Emelie Cajsdotter: It

01:55:19.647 --> 01:55:21.477
Rupert Isaacson: just
seems so unnecessary to

01:55:21.747 --> 01:55:22.527
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's unnecessary.

01:55:22.587 --> 01:55:22.647
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:55:22.647 --> 01:55:24.987
Around when you could just be in the
forest talking to the little people.

01:55:25.017 --> 01:55:25.707
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, I know, I know.

01:55:25.707 --> 01:55:26.607
It is unnecessary.

01:55:26.607 --> 01:55:28.377
This, this whole.

01:55:29.172 --> 01:55:31.872
Belief in suffering.

01:55:32.892 --> 01:55:35.382
Pain I believe we all have in our lives.

01:55:35.802 --> 01:55:39.972
And, and it, it's also even helpful as
much as we don't feel it at the time.

01:55:40.242 --> 01:55:40.572
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:55:40.792 --> 01:55:43.372
Emelie Cajsdotter: But suffering, I
would say something totally different.

01:55:44.722 --> 01:55:44.992
Yeah.

01:55:45.142 --> 01:55:47.062
In suffering, we have choices.

01:55:47.902 --> 01:55:49.462
We might not, so it seems to be a

01:55:49.462 --> 01:55:52.942
Rupert Isaacson: blindness, a
blindness to the, the, the, as you

01:55:52.942 --> 01:55:57.472
said, the joy of creation of if, if,
if those nature entities are there,

01:55:57.472 --> 01:56:01.492
trying to draw our attention back to
it constantly and saying, you know,

01:56:02.152 --> 01:56:02.842
Emelie Cajsdotter: there is another way.

01:56:02.842 --> 01:56:04.852
It's like this constantly
saying, there is another way.

01:56:04.852 --> 01:56:06.082
It will make you a little happier.

01:56:06.622 --> 01:56:07.822
Rupert Isaacson: Everything
doesn't better personal.

01:56:08.362 --> 01:56:08.782
Yeah.

01:56:08.842 --> 01:56:11.392
It's like, why, why is it
wanting to be about me?

01:56:11.452 --> 01:56:11.812
Yeah.

01:56:13.012 --> 01:56:14.632
But it's hard if Yeah.

01:56:14.632 --> 01:56:15.682
Little people are not talking to you.

01:56:15.682 --> 01:56:19.942
But although it seems that they sort
of were to your grandmother, so,

01:56:21.292 --> 01:56:21.682
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

01:56:21.682 --> 01:56:25.522
And did you see this Exactly, this
reasoning is what came to me after her

01:56:25.522 --> 01:56:27.712
death e except of course, this huge grief.

01:56:28.312 --> 01:56:30.442
But how could she have all that?

01:56:31.132 --> 01:56:35.812
And it still wasn't
possible to live in herself.

01:56:36.322 --> 01:56:36.412
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:56:36.412 --> 01:56:38.572
Emelie Cajsdotter: Does that mean
that everything she said was wrong?

01:56:39.262 --> 01:56:39.712
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:56:39.832 --> 01:56:42.982
Emelie Cajsdotter: Or is
life just a lot more complex?

01:56:43.402 --> 01:56:43.792
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:56:44.332 --> 01:56:44.662
Yeah.

01:56:44.662 --> 01:56:47.662
It's 'cause it would seem, it would
seem, if you had your eyes open to

01:56:47.962 --> 01:56:52.582
those dimensions of reality, that it
would be hard to remain bitter because.

01:56:53.632 --> 01:56:54.502
Just too interesting.

01:56:54.507 --> 01:56:54.777
You know?

01:56:54.857 --> 01:56:57.292
I mean, it's like, yeah, you
might, but I, it's also though,

01:56:58.942 --> 01:57:03.532
Emelie Cajsdotter: it's also a constant,
you know, all of these spiritual

01:57:03.532 --> 01:57:08.482
traditions where you have constant,
like in, in, in Islam and in the

01:57:08.482 --> 01:57:12.832
surface they have thicker and you have
meditation and this remembrance, you

01:57:12.832 --> 01:57:16.582
know, we have to constantly work on
remembering the source because, so

01:57:17.122 --> 01:57:18.202
Rupert Isaacson: shamanic rituals,

01:57:18.322 --> 01:57:18.712
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

01:57:18.952 --> 01:57:19.857
Without the meaning.

01:57:19.857 --> 01:57:23.812
We don't, we are overwhelmed,
again, with the reality around us.

01:57:23.812 --> 01:57:30.502
So I think it's not really enough
to feel it once and then it's there.

01:57:30.502 --> 01:57:33.382
It, it's helpful to feel it
once, because then it's easier

01:57:33.382 --> 01:57:34.552
to find it the second time.

01:57:34.552 --> 01:57:37.672
And if we find it the second
time, it's easier the third time.

01:57:37.672 --> 01:57:44.632
But we still have to live with this
person that we are with a genetic story

01:57:44.632 --> 01:57:52.072
that is up to me to transform as I play
my part in my little chunk of time.

01:57:52.072 --> 01:57:52.702
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:57:53.332 --> 01:57:58.972
Emelie Cajsdotter: And, and she
has given me a huge freedom.

01:57:59.692 --> 01:58:07.612
So, although her story is tragic
in very many ways, she also, maybe

01:58:08.182 --> 01:58:11.752
she couldn't open those doors for
her, but she could open them for me.

01:58:12.202 --> 01:58:12.592
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:58:13.942 --> 01:58:14.392
Okay.

01:58:14.902 --> 01:58:15.322
Okay.

01:58:15.322 --> 01:58:16.402
So she does that.

01:58:17.422 --> 01:58:19.522
You go and then you go
to Ireland shortly after.

01:58:20.207 --> 01:58:20.657
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:58:20.657 --> 01:58:25.037
I go to Ireland and I start to work
and live in Ireland on and off.

01:58:25.487 --> 01:58:25.787
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:58:26.027 --> 01:58:26.687
And what do you do?

01:58:26.687 --> 01:58:27.587
What do you do in Ireland?

01:58:27.887 --> 01:58:32.437
Emelie Cajsdotter: I start by by riding
young Kura pos in the middle of Kura.

01:58:33.127 --> 01:58:33.577
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.

01:58:33.577 --> 01:58:34.282
In the, on the Baren?

01:58:34.987 --> 01:58:35.347
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

01:58:35.347 --> 01:58:37.297
On in the, like, yeah.

01:58:37.357 --> 01:58:41.287
In, in county Galway Kamara
in a place called Cael.

01:58:41.707 --> 01:58:43.117
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, I
know, I know what that is.

01:58:43.117 --> 01:58:43.417
Yeah.

01:58:43.567 --> 01:58:43.837
Okay.

01:58:43.837 --> 01:58:44.217
And that's to know

01:58:45.267 --> 01:58:50.157
Emelie Cajsdotter: an old Celtic woman
in county Mayo, near a small town called

01:58:50.372 --> 01:58:52.177
Anne who she doesn't live anymore.

01:58:52.177 --> 01:58:57.217
Her name was Bina McLaughlin,
and she was a fierce thing.

01:58:57.377 --> 01:59:03.367
Celtic speaking herb, woman
shepherd original human being.

01:59:03.487 --> 01:59:05.077
And we became friends.

01:59:05.077 --> 01:59:08.287
A very stormy type of friendship because I
think that would be the only way you could

01:59:08.287 --> 01:59:10.237
have a friendship with such a character.

01:59:10.727 --> 01:59:13.427
But I became her sort of friend
and student on and off for

01:59:13.427 --> 01:59:16.307
years as well of on and off.

01:59:16.307 --> 01:59:16.487
Yeah.

01:59:16.487 --> 01:59:20.917
I would travel on and off too, the
student of of the Celtic traditions

01:59:20.917 --> 01:59:26.287
of herbs and nature, spirits and
any other, everything she did.

01:59:27.187 --> 01:59:27.487
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:59:27.488 --> 01:59:27.489
Mm-hmm.

01:59:28.122 --> 01:59:30.277
Emelie Cajsdotter: And it
was mind blowing to meet.

01:59:30.277 --> 01:59:32.917
I, I'm, I mean, I'm 17 and.

01:59:33.712 --> 01:59:36.382
I know that I'm meant to be doing
this, and I've seen that it's

01:59:36.382 --> 01:59:40.702
possible to follow your path, but to
see someone elderly, she was in her

01:59:40.702 --> 01:59:41.992
seventies when I got to know her.

01:59:42.872 --> 01:59:47.972
Really doing that and sort of standing
up for it and being completely outcast,

01:59:47.972 --> 01:59:51.032
but still, yeah, it's possible.

01:59:51.032 --> 01:59:53.612
I mean, she, yes, she really
showed me it's possible.

01:59:55.112 --> 01:59:55.412
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:59:55.412 --> 01:59:58.312
And you would sort of come and
go from her homestead meanwhile,

01:59:58.312 --> 02:00:01.072
her job breaking training horses.

02:00:02.722 --> 02:00:05.512
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, and, and
I also, I mean, I'm still supposed

02:00:05.512 --> 02:00:08.482
to be in school in Sweden and
I have the pony to look after.

02:00:08.717 --> 02:00:09.007
Okay.

02:00:09.592 --> 02:00:12.982
So I'm sort of circling
around these things.

02:00:13.162 --> 02:00:13.492
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:00:13.912 --> 02:00:16.792
And where do you go from that point?

02:00:18.592 --> 02:00:22.102
Emelie Cajsdotter: From that point,
there is one experience that is so

02:00:22.102 --> 02:00:24.802
important that it has to be thrown in.

02:00:25.852 --> 02:00:29.842
At this point, you know, I'm protesting
against everything in, in a sort of.

02:00:30.472 --> 02:00:33.652
Not angry way, but I'm dancing constantly.

02:00:33.652 --> 02:00:37.872
I'm always at some sort of
party drinking tons of alcohol.

02:00:37.942 --> 02:00:41.992
Ne never taking any drugs
because I figured out two things.

02:00:42.322 --> 02:00:46.042
If I find a drug that soothes my
inner pain, I will be on it forever.

02:00:46.042 --> 02:00:49.852
So someone like me, it cannot try heroin.

02:00:50.002 --> 02:00:52.027
It's, no, it would, yeah.

02:00:52.147 --> 02:00:52.987
' Rupert Isaacson: cause
the problem is it works.

02:00:53.057 --> 02:00:53.347
Yeah.

02:00:53.727 --> 02:00:54.347
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, it works.

02:00:54.982 --> 02:00:58.222
And I realized that it would work
brilliantly on me, so I can't take it.

02:00:58.312 --> 02:00:58.552
Yeah.

02:00:59.152 --> 02:01:01.132
And I would not be strong
enough to come off it.

02:01:02.032 --> 02:01:02.092
Yeah.

02:01:02.092 --> 02:01:07.372
And number two, if I would take any other
drug, it would be like disrespecting all

02:01:07.372 --> 02:01:09.502
these experiences that I'm already having.

02:01:10.432 --> 02:01:10.582
Mm-hmm.

02:01:10.822 --> 02:01:16.922
So no drugs but a lot of dancing
and drinking and not much sleep.

02:01:17.372 --> 02:01:21.872
Very, very intense living because I
explore all these areas at the same time.

02:01:22.382 --> 02:01:22.412
Rupert Isaacson: Oh.

02:01:23.042 --> 02:01:26.852
Emelie Cajsdotter: And then for
some reason, and I'm also, I have

02:01:26.852 --> 02:01:31.772
this istic story in my family, you
know, of all these women trying

02:01:31.772 --> 02:01:36.542
to find a way and unsuccessfully
living very unfulfilled lives.

02:01:37.172 --> 02:01:39.692
So this is also a topic
that is constantly with me.

02:01:39.692 --> 02:01:45.062
So one day I decide to
start to live in celibacy

02:01:47.732 --> 02:01:51.992
and it's not for moral reasons
and it's not with a timeframe.

02:01:52.917 --> 02:01:56.747
It's not a sort of vow
but I want to try it.

02:01:57.047 --> 02:02:02.897
So I decide, I think I'm 18, maybe I
decide to live in celibacy and why this is

02:02:02.897 --> 02:02:07.427
so important because I think it is about
identity and what prevents us from finding

02:02:07.427 --> 02:02:10.277
our dreams could be all sorts of things.

02:02:10.877 --> 02:02:14.507
And so I'm out in a bar, drinking
and dancing as usual, and I'm

02:02:14.507 --> 02:02:18.617
being chatted up by some guy, and
I tell him halfway through the

02:02:18.617 --> 02:02:20.267
conversation that, oops, wait a minute.

02:02:20.267 --> 02:02:23.777
He probably thinks that we are gonna
go back after this to his place.

02:02:24.107 --> 02:02:26.537
I need to tell him that I'm in
celibacy not to disappoint him.

02:02:27.197 --> 02:02:30.227
So I say, by the way, nothing
more is gonna happen tonight

02:02:30.227 --> 02:02:31.697
because I'm in celibacy.

02:02:32.597 --> 02:02:37.017
And the change in his face all
of it, it was like watching the

02:02:37.017 --> 02:02:39.807
sort of arm of a clock just shift.

02:02:40.347 --> 02:02:42.177
And I became a person.

02:02:44.577 --> 02:02:49.527
We, we became friends for years after
that until I left Gothenburg, actually.

02:02:50.247 --> 02:02:53.787
And I remember walking outta that pub
in the middle of the night, in the

02:02:53.787 --> 02:02:58.257
middle of Gothenburg City Center, seeing
all these advertisements, you know,

02:02:58.257 --> 02:03:02.217
all these newspapers and films and
half naked women all looking the same.

02:03:03.087 --> 02:03:07.047
And realized with full insight
that this is not my story.

02:03:08.307 --> 02:03:14.907
This, this total freedom of not
belonging to having to fulfill that story

02:03:15.237 --> 02:03:15.567
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

02:03:15.877 --> 02:03:18.307
Emelie Cajsdotter: Is one of
maybe the most important things

02:03:18.307 --> 02:03:19.537
that ever happened to me.

02:03:19.867 --> 02:03:20.077
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

02:03:20.077 --> 02:03:21.097
Mm-hmm.

02:03:21.097 --> 02:03:27.967
Emelie Cajsdotter: Because somehow
I, I, I got out of not only my, my

02:03:27.967 --> 02:03:35.137
family's story of the women's roles,
but that whole cultural expectation

02:03:35.137 --> 02:03:36.937
and it never really came back.

02:03:37.627 --> 02:03:39.517
Rupert Isaacson: Did you stay in
celibacy for the rest of your life?

02:03:39.757 --> 02:03:42.547
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, I stayed
in celibacy for maybe six months.

02:03:42.547 --> 02:03:45.757
I can't even, it wasn't even a
big thing to break it, it was

02:03:45.757 --> 02:03:48.667
just that I eventually met someone
that I wanted to break it with.

02:03:48.937 --> 02:03:49.627
Right, right.

02:03:49.987 --> 02:03:51.727
But that wasn't the point.

02:03:51.967 --> 02:03:52.387
Yeah.

02:03:52.387 --> 02:03:56.017
I see what the point was that
I realized that it's my choice.

02:03:56.707 --> 02:03:56.977
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

02:03:58.452 --> 02:04:02.797
Emelie Cajsdotter: And, and it totally
changes the way people perceive me.

02:04:04.237 --> 02:04:04.897
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

02:04:05.617 --> 02:04:06.187
It's,

02:04:08.947 --> 02:04:13.867
it's interesting that, as you say, to
go out and see all the advertising and

02:04:13.867 --> 02:04:16.507
the, you know, now it would be even more

02:04:17.317 --> 02:04:17.617
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

02:04:17.917 --> 02:04:19.027
Intense with social media.

02:04:19.957 --> 02:04:21.847
You are bombarded by them, you know?

02:04:21.967 --> 02:04:23.947
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
no, you are, you are.

02:04:24.877 --> 02:04:25.297
Okay.

02:04:25.297 --> 02:04:25.867
So

02:04:26.377 --> 02:04:29.167
Emelie Cajsdotter: I think that
makes sense in all the other stories.

02:04:29.437 --> 02:04:30.457
Rupert Isaacson: So you are liberated.

02:04:30.457 --> 02:04:34.087
You, you have this kind of,
wow, I don't have to be.

02:04:34.477 --> 02:04:36.517
Shackled to those expectations?

02:04:36.517 --> 02:04:36.577
No.

02:04:36.577 --> 02:04:36.787
It's,

02:04:36.907 --> 02:04:38.257
Emelie Cajsdotter: it's
got nothing to do with me.

02:04:38.767 --> 02:04:39.757
Rupert Isaacson: What happens next?

02:04:40.627 --> 02:04:41.707
Emelie Cajsdotter: What happens next?

02:04:41.767 --> 02:04:44.347
Is that school is finishing.

02:04:45.217 --> 02:04:49.597
And I have honestly not spent much
time in it, but I'm so happy when

02:04:49.597 --> 02:04:53.077
it's over because I know that I'm
never going to be in a building again.

02:04:53.107 --> 02:05:01.597
And, and my feeling throughout
school, the later years is that I

02:05:01.597 --> 02:05:03.787
understand what the teachers want.

02:05:04.807 --> 02:05:09.937
I understand what I need to give
them to get good grades, but if I

02:05:09.937 --> 02:05:12.727
do that for reasons I can't explain.

02:05:13.177 --> 02:05:16.417
If I do that, I'm going
to lose something else.

02:05:17.047 --> 02:05:21.697
And what I will lose is going to prevent
me from doing what I'm meant to be doing.

02:05:23.917 --> 02:05:29.857
So I'm resisting every possible attempt to

02:05:30.247 --> 02:05:30.787
Rupert Isaacson: colonize you?

02:05:31.402 --> 02:05:31.622
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:05:31.777 --> 02:05:32.257
Yes.

02:05:32.282 --> 02:05:35.497
And, and to me, it's a fight for my life.

02:05:35.977 --> 02:05:36.217
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:05:36.457 --> 02:05:39.367
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's, I
begin to understand the ponies

02:05:39.367 --> 02:05:40.507
fight in the writing scheme.

02:05:40.507 --> 02:05:40.687
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:05:40.692 --> 02:05:40.742
Yeah.

02:05:40.747 --> 02:05:41.947
That's exactly what I was thinking of.

02:05:42.052 --> 02:05:44.047
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's
a, it's a real fight.

02:05:44.107 --> 02:05:49.517
You, it's, and it's constant, it's daily
to not be drawn into a reality that

02:05:49.517 --> 02:05:51.497
I might never be able to get out of.

02:05:52.847 --> 02:05:53.387
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:05:53.822 --> 02:05:55.082
So you leave school?

02:05:55.592 --> 02:05:56.192
Emelie Cajsdotter: I leave school.

02:05:56.192 --> 02:06:00.582
And as we leave school, which in Sweden,
you finish school around in June.

02:06:01.242 --> 02:06:05.302
Earlier that spring, two friends
of mine are going to Greenland.

02:06:06.122 --> 02:06:09.782
They're going to Greenland fishing
and hunting and camping and just being

02:06:09.782 --> 02:06:11.582
there for like two, three months.

02:06:12.182 --> 02:06:15.932
And for some reason they ask me
if I want to come with them, which

02:06:15.932 --> 02:06:19.142
of course I, I always found it
very hard to resist an adventure.

02:06:19.147 --> 02:06:19.597
Rupert Isaacson: Irresistible.

02:06:19.597 --> 02:06:19.877
Okay.

02:06:20.077 --> 02:06:21.392
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, it's irresistible.

02:06:21.392 --> 02:06:28.382
So, so I go to Greenland with them,
and that is life altering again,

02:06:29.312 --> 02:06:33.932
because we are hunting and fishing
and camping and out in nature without

02:06:33.932 --> 02:06:36.092
seeing traces of humans for weeks.

02:06:36.772 --> 02:06:44.212
And finally I begin to feel good
like this underlying pain that has

02:06:44.212 --> 02:06:49.372
always followed me through life is
not there when I'm in the wilderness.

02:06:50.722 --> 02:06:55.552
So I finally realized that maybe
nothing is wrong with me, maybe

02:06:55.552 --> 02:06:58.102
I'm just in the wrong environment.

02:07:01.072 --> 02:07:02.362
Rupert Isaacson: How long
are you out in Greenland for?

02:07:02.692 --> 02:07:05.512
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, first we are
there for like two months, and then

02:07:05.512 --> 02:07:07.042
they start working in a fish factory.

02:07:07.042 --> 02:07:10.972
So they stay for a year, but I know
that I have to go back to this pony

02:07:10.972 --> 02:07:12.742
and I know I want to study acupuncture.

02:07:12.742 --> 02:07:18.662
And so I traveled by myself for the last
month and hitchhiking with a cargo ship.

02:07:19.637 --> 02:07:25.697
To the north of Greenland and camping
then by myself, which is even better from

02:07:25.697 --> 02:07:27.887
this wilderness experience perspective.

02:07:29.067 --> 02:07:32.847
And also meeting amazing people
like the people on the cargo ship.

02:07:33.147 --> 02:07:36.897
There was a moment when the cargo
ship left shore and I realized that

02:07:36.897 --> 02:07:41.757
I'm the only woman, woman aboard,
and there are no mobile phones.

02:07:41.757 --> 02:07:43.287
This is before all of that.

02:07:44.217 --> 02:07:45.777
Not sure they would work there anyway.

02:07:45.777 --> 02:07:46.797
And Hmm.

02:07:46.977 --> 02:07:49.107
Was this really such a smart idea?

02:07:52.887 --> 02:07:55.047
But it was a smart idea because
there were amazing people.

02:07:56.277 --> 02:07:58.287
Rupert Isaacson: Were they Greenlanders
or were they, was it mixed?

02:07:58.737 --> 02:08:03.867
Emelie Cajsdotter: They were a mixed
crew of Danish and Greenlandic in wheat.

02:08:04.047 --> 02:08:07.347
Rupert Isaacson: When you're camping up
by yourself in the north of Greenland,

02:08:10.857 --> 02:08:15.837
what are the, what, who do, what are
the nature entities that you meet?

02:08:18.627 --> 02:08:23.997
Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, first I
think with Greenland is the vastness.

02:08:23.997 --> 02:08:26.037
It's so huge.

02:08:26.042 --> 02:08:26.352
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

02:08:27.657 --> 02:08:31.407
Emelie Cajsdotter: And so all of
a sudden, your human perspective

02:08:31.407 --> 02:08:33.027
is put in the right place.

02:08:33.387 --> 02:08:33.507
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

02:08:34.197 --> 02:08:35.007
Emelie Cajsdotter: You are tiny.

02:08:35.457 --> 02:08:40.767
You are surrounded by species that
were there for so long before you.

02:08:40.767 --> 02:08:41.577
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

02:08:43.902 --> 02:08:49.692
Emelie Cajsdotter: That it's just, that
is sort of calming and, and the nature

02:08:49.692 --> 02:08:55.452
spirits would be, except that there are
no trees, but there would be similar

02:08:55.842 --> 02:08:58.452
beings coming out of the nature there.

02:08:59.802 --> 02:09:00.282
Definitely.

02:09:00.612 --> 02:09:04.302
Rupert Isaacson: Anyone that sticks
in your memory in particular?

02:09:04.812 --> 02:09:08.302
Emelie Cajsdotter: No actually
not because the whole thing was

02:09:10.762 --> 02:09:12.682
Rupert Isaacson: Did they come and
converse with you and show you things

02:09:12.742 --> 02:09:17.272
or not in the same way that you'd
encountered them in the forest in Sweden?

02:09:17.962 --> 02:09:18.022
Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

02:09:18.022 --> 02:09:18.892
It would be similar.

02:09:20.512 --> 02:09:26.092
And it's helping sort of where to find
water, how to find, you know, they

02:09:26.092 --> 02:09:29.002
know the land, but they know everyone.

02:09:31.612 --> 02:09:32.752
Rupert Isaacson: And
they're friendly to you.

02:09:33.532 --> 02:09:33.922
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:09:36.622 --> 02:09:38.242
They're sort of harsh and friendly.

02:09:38.512 --> 02:09:38.872
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:09:39.292 --> 02:09:41.002
Sort of like Scandinavians.

02:09:41.237 --> 02:09:41.397
Yes.

02:09:42.217 --> 02:09:42.437
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:09:45.022 --> 02:09:46.492
Rupert Isaacson: Were the
Irish fairies different?

02:09:46.552 --> 02:09:48.442
I mean, I've gone back
to the, I can't stop it.

02:09:48.622 --> 02:09:48.952
I've got

02:09:48.952 --> 02:09:53.632
Emelie Cajsdotter: no, I I, I would
agree that there is a remarkable

02:09:53.632 --> 02:09:55.602
sense of cheekiness on the Irish side.

02:09:56.017 --> 02:09:58.032
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, we got it.

02:09:58.032 --> 02:09:59.172
We gotta go back to this.

02:09:59.262 --> 02:09:59.472
Alright.

02:09:59.987 --> 02:10:00.467
Alright.

02:10:00.702 --> 02:10:02.892
I'm gonna force myself
to stick to the timeline.

02:10:02.892 --> 02:10:08.502
Now you, you, you have this, you, you go
deeply into the wilderness in Greenland.

02:10:08.532 --> 02:10:09.312
This is amazing.

02:10:09.762 --> 02:10:10.062
Yes.

02:10:10.422 --> 02:10:13.302
You go, but then you go back, you
wanna study acupuncture, you wanna,

02:10:13.362 --> 02:10:13.632
Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.

02:10:13.752 --> 02:10:20.712
Then I go back and as I fly back to
Gothenburg in only four hours as it takes,

02:10:21.162 --> 02:10:27.192
the shock for the system to go back into
a city is the final sort of, alright.

02:10:27.252 --> 02:10:32.022
And now Emily, you are out of the city for
everything that this place has given you.

02:10:32.052 --> 02:10:36.312
And as correct that it was probably in
the preciseness exactly how it should be.

02:10:36.822 --> 02:10:40.452
This is the end of city life forever.

02:10:41.122 --> 02:10:41.692
And it was,

02:10:43.072 --> 02:10:43.762
Rupert Isaacson: where'd you go then?

02:10:44.842 --> 02:10:47.702
Emelie Cajsdotter: Oh, I did some sort
of odd jobs here and there working in

02:10:47.702 --> 02:10:51.932
stables and barns and with cows and
horses and whatever to, and then I

02:10:51.932 --> 02:10:53.252
went to the place where I live now.

02:10:53.942 --> 02:10:54.272
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:10:54.662 --> 02:10:57.752
Emelie Cajsdotter: So I was 21
when I moved to where I am now.

02:10:57.802 --> 02:10:59.872
And decided to.

02:11:02.017 --> 02:11:04.687
Sorry, because I failed
so completely in that.

02:11:05.647 --> 02:11:08.167
My idea was to hide from the world.

02:11:08.737 --> 02:11:09.157
Rupert Isaacson: Well done.

02:11:09.262 --> 02:11:09.482
Yes,

02:11:09.752 --> 02:11:10.282
Emelie Cajsdotter: well done.

02:11:12.182 --> 02:11:18.967
And, and really grow potatoes, be,
you know, self-sufficient, live

02:11:18.967 --> 02:11:22.717
in a sort of cyclic, harmonious
relationship with nature and never

02:11:22.717 --> 02:11:23.827
be seen again, sort of thing.

02:11:24.037 --> 02:11:24.367
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:11:24.557 --> 02:11:26.897
Emelie Cajsdotter: And some of those
things went really well, but the never

02:11:26.897 --> 02:11:29.177
seen again, part went totally bad.

02:11:29.447 --> 02:11:30.677
Rupert Isaacson: Why did that go bad?

02:11:30.677 --> 02:11:31.787
Why did that not happen?

02:11:32.087 --> 02:11:34.157
Emelie Cajsdotter: Because
that's not what I really wanted.

02:11:34.867 --> 02:11:37.092
And that's not what I It's

02:11:37.172 --> 02:11:38.267
Rupert Isaacson: also not, it's not human.

02:11:38.357 --> 02:11:38.657
Yeah.

02:11:38.657 --> 02:11:38.957
Really.

02:11:39.017 --> 02:11:43.697
Emelie Cajsdotter: Oh, no, it's, I
think what it was is that when you

02:11:43.697 --> 02:11:48.467
have an awakening of any kind as
a human being, especially if it is

02:11:48.467 --> 02:11:52.427
empathically and you realize what
we've done to this planet, I mean, we

02:11:52.457 --> 02:11:55.967
can't really make any excuses for that.

02:11:56.177 --> 02:11:59.087
I mean, we have done a
lot of destructive things.

02:11:59.477 --> 02:12:05.537
I think one way of looking at it
is if I go into hiding and try to

02:12:05.537 --> 02:12:09.827
interfere as little as possible,
I will reverse some of that harm.

02:12:11.612 --> 02:12:15.602
But then when you communicate with
other species, that's not what they say.

02:12:16.412 --> 02:12:21.452
They constantly convey that the
way for humans is to step back in.

02:12:22.442 --> 02:12:22.532
Yeah.

02:12:22.532 --> 02:12:25.352
It's, we're not, we're not
supposed to be less involved.

02:12:25.352 --> 02:12:31.652
We're already shut off to, as much as is
doable that's not the way forward, the

02:12:31.652 --> 02:12:38.492
way forward seem to interact, step back
in somehow live and, and, and share this

02:12:38.492 --> 02:12:40.292
life with everyone else who is here.

02:12:40.592 --> 02:12:43.472
Rupert Isaacson: How does that
evolve though, that, that you go from

02:12:46.202 --> 02:12:52.532
this sort of lone, a hippie girl open to
things that other people don't seem to

02:12:54.542 --> 02:13:00.332
opening up to offer other people
courses in how to do this?

02:13:00.782 --> 02:13:06.662
Also running this big animal
rescue it's afer old jump.

02:13:07.592 --> 02:13:07.682
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:13:08.342 --> 02:13:12.062
But the, the essence has always
remained, I'm still in the same

02:13:12.062 --> 02:13:18.482
sort of tiny shoebox house, and
there is nothing glamorous about it.

02:13:18.542 --> 02:13:20.312
It's not a huge profit.

02:13:20.312 --> 02:13:21.512
So people are employed.

02:13:21.512 --> 02:13:22.202
It's volunteers.

02:13:22.202 --> 02:13:22.562
No, but what

02:13:22.562 --> 02:13:26.492
Rupert Isaacson: I, what I mean is it's,
it sort of, it's a big jump to go to

02:13:28.532 --> 02:13:29.702
saying, yeah.

02:13:29.822 --> 02:13:32.072
Reaching out to your fellow man and
saying, I can show you how to do this.

02:13:32.072 --> 02:13:32.822
I can show you how to.

02:13:33.527 --> 02:13:34.277
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's, it's huge.

02:13:34.277 --> 02:13:36.222
And if it was to relate this way, how, how

02:13:36.222 --> 02:13:36.702
Rupert Isaacson: did that happen?

02:13:37.322 --> 02:13:38.687
Emelie Cajsdotter: It was
the horses that started it.

02:13:38.687 --> 02:13:39.317
I blame them.

02:13:39.587 --> 02:13:39.947
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:13:40.467 --> 02:13:43.872
Emelie Cajsdotter: But what, what
really happened is maybe we, we

02:13:43.872 --> 02:13:45.192
need another podcast for that too.

02:13:45.402 --> 02:13:46.392
Rupert Isaacson: We certainly
need another podcast.

02:13:46.392 --> 02:13:46.482
Yes.

02:13:46.532 --> 02:13:50.372
Emelie Cajsdotter: But that
was when I began to dream.

02:13:51.752 --> 02:13:56.942
The more you spend time with other
species reality, you realize that

02:13:56.942 --> 02:14:02.922
the human linear hierarchy and
domination is like a disease.

02:14:03.072 --> 02:14:03.312
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

02:14:03.552 --> 02:14:07.032
Emelie Cajsdotter: So if that
is the only way to interact with

02:14:07.032 --> 02:14:12.522
domesticated animals, then I have to
stop living with domesticated animals.

02:14:13.632 --> 02:14:17.322
And since I love all these animals
that live here, and I can't really

02:14:17.322 --> 02:14:22.332
let them loose in the forest because
that's not the society we are in, then

02:14:22.872 --> 02:14:24.732
I'm desperate to find another way.

02:14:25.722 --> 02:14:31.242
So I put the question out to the
universe basically saying is domination

02:14:31.242 --> 02:14:32.952
necessary in the handling of animals?

02:14:32.982 --> 02:14:35.112
Because I really, really need to know.

02:14:36.252 --> 02:14:37.932
And then I begin to dream.

02:14:38.922 --> 02:14:43.482
I begin to dream about New Zealand
and go to the Maori people.

02:14:43.932 --> 02:14:48.942
I dream about Jordan and end up with
the, with the Hashemite royal horses in

02:14:48.942 --> 02:14:52.512
Jordan and other parts of the world to.

02:14:52.902 --> 02:15:00.252
That eventually becomes a story of what,
what is, when there is no hierarchy

02:15:00.252 --> 02:15:02.322
and domination, what actually could be.

02:15:03.252 --> 02:15:07.722
And as that happens I think,
and I think that would maybe be

02:15:07.722 --> 02:15:11.982
another podcast as well to maybe
dive into some of those events.

02:15:13.182 --> 02:15:18.312
Then you realize that you don't
get such an adventure given to

02:15:18.312 --> 02:15:22.212
you just to keep it for yourself.

02:15:22.752 --> 02:15:24.702
It doesn't mean that you're on a mission.

02:15:24.702 --> 02:15:28.332
It doesn't mean that I believe that
I'm right and, and others are wrong.

02:15:28.792 --> 02:15:30.292
It's, it's none of that.

02:15:30.352 --> 02:15:32.032
It's not a missionary thing.

02:15:32.842 --> 02:15:38.452
But it would be wrong not
to make it available then.

02:15:38.452 --> 02:15:39.802
I wouldn't have done my part.

02:15:40.642 --> 02:15:44.242
Rupert Isaacson: So anyone who's listened
this far is gonna go, what happened in

02:15:44.242 --> 02:15:46.372
Jordan and what happened with Amari.

02:15:46.402 --> 02:15:48.412
Alright, ready?

02:15:49.042 --> 02:15:49.672
Emelie Cajsdotter: We'll get to that.

02:15:49.672 --> 02:15:49.676
We'll get to that.

02:15:49.762 --> 02:15:50.032
Well, we're

02:15:50.032 --> 02:15:51.382
Rupert Isaacson: somewhat
over the two hour mark.

02:15:51.412 --> 02:15:51.652
My Yeah.

02:15:51.832 --> 02:15:54.502
What I think we should do
is, I think we should pause.

02:15:54.982 --> 02:15:55.402
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:15:55.612 --> 02:15:57.862
Rupert Isaacson: But I'm gonna pause
with a couple of questions and I

02:15:57.862 --> 02:16:02.122
promise every listener provided Emily
agrees, which I'm gonna force it to

02:16:02.152 --> 02:16:04.282
'cause I'm guilt people 'cause I'm hot.

02:16:04.372 --> 02:16:06.352
Emelie Cajsdotter: I owe you anyway
for bringing me back into humanity.

02:16:06.622 --> 02:16:06.832
Rupert Isaacson: Well.

02:16:07.327 --> 02:16:07.597
Yeah.

02:16:12.132 --> 02:16:14.137
Dunno if that's necessarily
a good thing, but

02:16:14.767 --> 02:16:15.547
Emelie Cajsdotter: it's a good thing.

02:16:15.667 --> 02:16:16.057
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:16:16.057 --> 02:16:16.267
We

02:16:16.267 --> 02:16:16.687
Emelie Cajsdotter: have to believe,

02:16:19.267 --> 02:16:20.617
Rupert Isaacson: you know,
questions come to mind.

02:16:20.617 --> 02:16:24.727
Like you end up in Jordan with
the king's horses, blah, blah.

02:16:24.727 --> 02:16:27.577
But I mean, that's hierarchical and

02:16:27.787 --> 02:16:28.477
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, exactly.

02:16:28.477 --> 02:16:31.237
And that's sort of divine sense of humor,

02:16:31.417 --> 02:16:31.807
Rupert Isaacson: right.

02:16:31.807 --> 02:16:32.917
And you end up with a novel you never

02:16:32.917 --> 02:16:34.117
Emelie Cajsdotter: thought
you would find a warrior

02:16:34.117 --> 02:16:34.867
Rupert Isaacson: society.

02:16:35.197 --> 02:16:35.677
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:16:35.827 --> 02:16:36.967
Rupert Isaacson: Also hierarchical.

02:16:37.327 --> 02:16:37.477
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:16:37.897 --> 02:16:38.167
Very.

02:16:38.887 --> 02:16:42.547
Rupert Isaacson: So there's
gonna be questions, clearly

02:16:42.547 --> 02:16:45.142
there's some paradoxical
interesting stuff there, right?

02:16:45.562 --> 02:16:45.782
Yes.

02:16:45.837 --> 02:16:48.357
So here's what I want to do.

02:16:49.767 --> 02:16:57.207
I want to pause and formulate the
questions, and I want to soon Bri

02:16:57.207 --> 02:16:59.067
get to the next phase of the story.

02:16:59.157 --> 02:17:00.057
So part two.

02:17:00.717 --> 02:17:00.897
Yeah.

02:17:01.257 --> 02:17:11.307
And also to listeners after that, after
I've nailed her down on the, the, those

02:17:11.307 --> 02:17:15.087
travels and then what she learned then
how she's brought that back to Sweden and

02:17:15.087 --> 02:17:18.207
what the classes are that you can attend.

02:17:19.047 --> 02:17:23.817
For example I'm going to be following
Emily onto a sacred mountain and.

02:17:24.657 --> 02:17:25.947
Talk to the mountain with her.

02:17:26.427 --> 02:17:26.817
Yes.

02:17:26.817 --> 02:17:28.977
This June, 2025.

02:17:28.977 --> 02:17:31.647
And I think we, I think we're full.

02:17:31.677 --> 02:17:32.907
Are we not with it

02:17:32.907 --> 02:17:35.157
Emelie Cajsdotter: seems like we're
a bit over full, but you never know.

02:17:35.277 --> 02:17:36.987
Rupert Isaacson: Well, what
I'm, what I'm thinking is I

02:17:36.987 --> 02:17:38.937
think we'll do it again, right?

02:17:38.937 --> 02:17:39.057
Yeah.

02:17:39.447 --> 02:17:47.607
So, those of you who'd like to follow
Emily onto a sacred mountain in Western

02:17:47.607 --> 02:17:49.407
Sweden, I dunno how you could resist.

02:17:50.427 --> 02:17:52.167
There will be, there will be more.

02:17:52.227 --> 02:17:52.677
Alright.

02:17:53.547 --> 02:17:55.587
In the meantime, like how that stuff,

02:17:55.587 --> 02:17:57.447
Emelie Cajsdotter: and I'm also,
I'm double checking with everyone

02:17:57.447 --> 02:18:00.417
who is booked onto this one to
make sure that they're coming.

02:18:00.477 --> 02:18:00.807
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:18:00.807 --> 02:18:03.357
And, and if there are any, if
there are any cancellations

02:18:03.357 --> 02:18:04.557
or I will let everybody know.

02:18:04.977 --> 02:18:10.747
But given that we are going to reconvene,
people will just from here want to

02:18:10.747 --> 02:18:12.217
know how they can contact you now.

02:18:12.217 --> 02:18:14.887
So can you just please give
everyone your contact info?

02:18:15.577 --> 02:18:16.597
Like how, how do people?

02:18:17.017 --> 02:18:17.377
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:18:17.382 --> 02:18:17.542
Or

02:18:18.052 --> 02:18:18.817
Rupert Isaacson: more or less,

02:18:19.687 --> 02:18:23.437
Emelie Cajsdotter: We have two
websites that has quite a lot on them.

02:18:23.887 --> 02:18:28.057
The reason there is two is that because
one is related to the sanctuary and

02:18:28.057 --> 02:18:34.477
the nonprofit organization and one
is related to how I also the, the

02:18:34.477 --> 02:18:37.897
courses and the classes and the school,
because that is taxed differently.

02:18:38.587 --> 02:18:41.437
So because of the tax
department, we have two,

02:18:43.147 --> 02:18:44.167
Rupert Isaacson: but if people want to

02:18:45.007 --> 02:18:46.777
Emelie Cajsdotter: interline,
so one is if somebody wants

02:18:46.777 --> 02:18:48.312
Rupert Isaacson: to do
a course with you on.

02:18:48.952 --> 02:18:50.182
Emelie Cajsdotter: Then
it is the how the fuck

02:18:50.182 --> 02:18:53.152
Rupert Isaacson: to talk to the mountain,
let alone the plants and the horses.

02:18:53.452 --> 02:18:53.842
What, yes.

02:18:54.592 --> 02:18:55.492
What's that website?

02:18:55.762 --> 02:19:00.052
Emelie Cajsdotter: That website
is miyo the way of compassion.com.

02:19:01.732 --> 02:19:02.452
Rupert Isaacson: One more time.

02:19:02.902 --> 02:19:03.742
Emelie Cajsdotter: MIO miyo.

02:19:04.522 --> 02:19:05.032
The way.

02:19:05.032 --> 02:19:05.807
Rupert Isaacson: MIO miyo.

02:19:05.807 --> 02:19:05.808
The

02:19:06.487 --> 02:19:07.767
Emelie Cajsdotter: way of compassion.

02:19:08.027 --> 02:19:10.642
Rupert Isaacson: The
way of compassion.com.

02:19:11.422 --> 02:19:14.572
MIO, the way of compassion.com.

02:19:14.692 --> 02:19:14.752
Okay.

02:19:14.752 --> 02:19:14.962
Yes.

02:19:14.962 --> 02:19:16.852
Mio was, and your emails on there, right?

02:19:16.852 --> 02:19:16.972
Horse?

02:19:17.842 --> 02:19:17.932
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:19:17.982 --> 02:19:22.832
Mio was a horse that really put things
into practice how non-hierarchical

02:19:22.832 --> 02:19:24.182
system can be put into practice.

02:19:24.217 --> 02:19:24.438
So, okay.

02:19:25.562 --> 02:19:30.242
And then the nonprofit and where
you sort of learn about the

02:19:30.242 --> 02:19:36.192
sanctuary and storytelling and
these things is friends of miyo.com,

02:19:36.197 --> 02:19:36.437
friends

02:19:36.537 --> 02:19:38.682
Rupert Isaacson: of miyo, MIO Yeah.

02:19:38.777 --> 02:19:39.597
Dot com All

02:19:49.117 --> 02:19:49.337
man.

02:19:49.812 --> 02:19:51.102
I can't wait to get there.

02:19:53.262 --> 02:19:53.352
Mm-hmm.

02:19:53.592 --> 02:19:57.222
What an extraordinary, what an
extraordinary human you are.

02:19:58.362 --> 02:19:58.812
Alright.

02:19:59.412 --> 02:19:59.897
I'm going to go

02:20:00.357 --> 02:20:03.642
Emelie Cajsdotter: see how all
these things that are in one way

02:20:03.642 --> 02:20:07.572
really negative and hard, they
really also play a part, you know?

02:20:08.142 --> 02:20:09.042
Rupert Isaacson: Well, sure.

02:20:09.042 --> 02:20:11.952
And I mean, it's.

02:20:13.572 --> 02:20:17.502
To me, what, what comes across is that
the tragedy is not that difficult.

02:20:17.502 --> 02:20:18.342
Things happen.

02:20:19.152 --> 02:20:24.012
The tragedy is that life is not
lived as life should be lived.

02:20:24.222 --> 02:20:24.792
Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly.

02:20:25.427 --> 02:20:25.917
Exactly.

02:20:26.382 --> 02:20:29.862
Rupert Isaacson: So that, that deep joy,
you know, it just goes back to that,

02:20:34.092 --> 02:20:39.312
that image of your, your grandfa
of your father rather if he had

02:20:40.722 --> 02:20:48.427
lived in the authentic human pre
agricultural perhaps way mm-hmm.

02:20:50.407 --> 02:20:53.292
Imagining him mapping out,
you know, a stone circle

02:20:54.402 --> 02:20:54.582
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

02:20:54.582 --> 02:20:54.672
With

02:20:55.002 --> 02:20:57.552
Rupert Isaacson: it for the ex
with the excited participation

02:20:57.552 --> 02:20:58.752
of the whole community.

02:20:58.992 --> 02:20:59.352
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:20:59.357 --> 02:21:07.812
And, and, and the tragedy in that
he's one of so many, it's not that,

02:21:07.812 --> 02:21:10.393
it's sort of a few Yeah, no, exactly.

02:21:10.393 --> 02:21:11.622
That, that falls out.

02:21:11.652 --> 02:21:17.262
It, it's the majority that
actually we've managed to create

02:21:17.262 --> 02:21:19.182
a system where almost no one

02:21:19.452 --> 02:21:19.932
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

02:21:21.522 --> 02:21:24.162
And we're, we're supposed to
be not only in relationship to

02:21:24.162 --> 02:21:26.562
each other because we're of the
planet, we're of the ecosystem.

02:21:26.562 --> 02:21:29.652
We're supposed to be in constant
interspecies relation with about

02:21:30.012 --> 02:21:32.082
300, 400 species surrounding us.

02:21:32.082 --> 02:21:35.352
We're supposed to be in constant
relation with That's just animal species.

02:21:35.712 --> 02:21:35.802
Yes.

02:21:35.802 --> 02:21:35.803
Yes.

02:21:36.252 --> 02:21:37.422
In constant relation with.

02:21:38.127 --> 02:21:41.247
Our environment and we're not,
and we are grief stricken.

02:21:41.247 --> 02:21:44.907
I think we're, I don't see how it's
possible to not be mentally ill.

02:21:44.907 --> 02:21:46.407
I consider myself mentally ill.

02:21:46.407 --> 02:21:46.617
Mentally.

02:21:46.617 --> 02:21:47.037
Yes,

02:21:47.277 --> 02:21:47.697
Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

02:21:47.757 --> 02:21:48.507
No, definitely

02:21:48.717 --> 02:21:52.347
Rupert Isaacson: to because of
just the reaction to the extreme

02:21:52.347 --> 02:21:57.447
pain of having to live that way.

02:21:57.537 --> 02:22:00.627
And I'm lucky, I mean, I was on
my horses in the forest earlier

02:22:00.627 --> 02:22:01.857
today looking at road air.

02:22:02.397 --> 02:22:02.637
Yeah.

02:22:03.597 --> 02:22:07.317
And even with that, you know, there's the
limitations that are involved, you know?

02:22:07.377 --> 02:22:07.467
Yep.

02:22:08.517 --> 02:22:13.167
So, and this thing of non-hierarchical
is so interesting because while it is

02:22:13.167 --> 02:22:15.687
true that while I'm riding my horse,
I actually very much would like them

02:22:15.687 --> 02:22:16.977
to go the way I need them to go.

02:22:16.977 --> 02:22:20.607
And, you know, when there's a car coming
on the road, you know, not wander out into

02:22:20.607 --> 02:22:21.552
the middle of the road, get, it doesn't

02:22:21.552 --> 02:22:22.912
Emelie Cajsdotter: exclude
that because what exactly,

02:22:23.222 --> 02:22:23.817
Rupert Isaacson: it's, it doesn't

02:22:23.907 --> 02:22:24.447
Emelie Cajsdotter: exclude that, it,

02:22:24.807 --> 02:22:29.037
Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's that feeling
of okay, do, do we feel that we both

02:22:29.037 --> 02:22:30.327
kind of want to do this together?

02:22:30.567 --> 02:22:30.807
Exactly.

02:22:30.807 --> 02:22:34.527
If we do, then okay, let's work out just
as if I'm gonna follow you up a mountain.

02:22:34.887 --> 02:22:35.127
Yeah.

02:22:35.277 --> 02:22:37.347
Your gaff, it's your hood,
you know that mountain.

02:22:37.347 --> 02:22:38.187
I'm following you.

02:22:38.337 --> 02:22:38.997
We've agreed.

02:22:38.997 --> 02:22:42.027
Because it would be just absurd for
me to try and lead that mountain.

02:22:42.027 --> 02:22:45.207
'cause I dunno, the mountain, you know,
similarly, if, if you're walking in

02:22:45.207 --> 02:22:48.447
my hood on the way to the supermarket,
I'll probably show you the way

02:22:48.447 --> 02:22:49.552
just 'cause I want to know the way.

02:22:49.552 --> 02:22:49.917
But, but

02:22:50.097 --> 02:22:53.277
Emelie Cajsdotter: in balance of hierarchy
comes when we put a different value on it.

02:22:53.427 --> 02:22:53.877
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

02:22:53.877 --> 02:22:56.367
Well it's, it's deferring to expertise.

02:22:56.367 --> 02:23:01.072
It's deferring to, experience, it's
saying, well, you know, okay, I,

02:23:01.077 --> 02:23:02.757
I need to learn about this thing.

02:23:02.997 --> 02:23:04.197
Let's say it's acupuncture, you know?

02:23:04.227 --> 02:23:04.527
Okay.

02:23:04.627 --> 02:23:08.617
I dunno from it, and Emily does, but
I'm gonna defer to her expertise.

02:23:08.617 --> 02:23:09.997
That's just common sense.

02:23:10.237 --> 02:23:14.347
And of course, as people get older,
you know, one wants to defer to

02:23:14.467 --> 02:23:16.177
elders because they know more.

02:23:16.457 --> 02:23:18.797
And we, and all of that is gone.

02:23:18.857 --> 02:23:21.707
You know, we don't, we put our old
people in, old people parking, and

02:23:21.707 --> 02:23:26.627
I know, it's just, it's just like
we couldn't get it more wrong.

02:23:27.677 --> 02:23:30.047
And obviously, you know, many
people have said this over the

02:23:30.047 --> 02:23:31.367
generations, we're not the first.

02:23:31.367 --> 02:23:34.307
But it, it is so interesting
when you bring it into the focus

02:23:34.307 --> 02:23:36.827
of a life, you know, and you
talk about your grandparents and

02:23:38.957 --> 02:23:40.577
even up there

02:23:42.857 --> 02:23:47.417
on the edge of civilization,
which, you know, Sweden is mm-hmm.

02:23:47.777 --> 02:23:49.577
Because there is a point
like Canada, there's a point

02:23:49.637 --> 02:23:51.317
beyond which it sort of stops.

02:23:51.677 --> 02:23:51.767
Mm-hmm.

02:23:52.007 --> 02:23:52.997
Even there.

02:23:58.697 --> 02:24:05.777
Well, you know, so I think what we
would, what I'd like to revisit Okay.

02:24:05.777 --> 02:24:11.927
In episode two is obviously the
rest of the story, and then how

02:24:11.927 --> 02:24:17.207
from your travels, you get the
sanctuary going and what you do there.

02:24:17.717 --> 02:24:21.947
And then I promise, promise, promise
listeners, we are going to do a

02:24:21.947 --> 02:24:26.717
set, a series, a little series
on fairies, nids, dryads, trolls.

02:24:27.077 --> 02:24:27.377
Yes.

02:24:28.342 --> 02:24:35.687
And we're gonna go down that rabbit hole
time and we're gonna do it unashamedly.

02:24:35.687 --> 02:24:39.017
And we're goingly and I don't
give a shit whether or not

02:24:39.017 --> 02:24:40.247
anyone thinks it's real or not.

02:24:40.247 --> 02:24:43.522
I couldn't give a flying
monkeys because I not,

02:24:43.522 --> 02:24:46.697
Emelie Cajsdotter: neither can I,
I I just enjoy, enjoy, I think,

02:24:48.142 --> 02:24:51.587
Rupert Isaacson: oh, it's such
a relief to me that one can

02:24:51.587 --> 02:24:53.057
actually have that conversation.

02:24:53.117 --> 02:24:53.447
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:24:55.037 --> 02:24:56.402
No, if it was up to what people I, if

02:24:56.402 --> 02:24:57.887
Rupert Isaacson: you think we're away
with a fair, wouldn't even have begun.

02:24:57.887 --> 02:24:59.237
We're, yeah.

02:25:02.502 --> 02:25:02.722
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:25:03.227 --> 02:25:04.607
And we're not hiding it, so

02:25:08.957 --> 02:25:10.457
go listen to something else.

02:25:10.457 --> 02:25:14.447
You know, it's like when people want
to make animals here more obedient or

02:25:14.447 --> 02:25:18.017
whatever, if they're on a class, it's
like, no, you can go to any farm all

02:25:18.017 --> 02:25:21.257
over the world and people and animals
will do exactly what you want them to do.

02:25:21.527 --> 02:25:23.957
Now you are in the one place
when that's not gonna happen.

02:25:24.227 --> 02:25:25.517
Just don't be here.

02:25:26.117 --> 02:25:26.897
It's not that hard.

02:25:29.237 --> 02:25:29.417
Woo.

02:25:32.387 --> 02:25:32.687
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:25:32.687 --> 02:25:37.337
And, and you know, in, in terms of the
safe functionality, again, like there I am

02:25:37.337 --> 02:25:41.897
teaching somebody some dressage, or there
I am serving an autistic kid on my horse.

02:25:41.897 --> 02:25:42.347
Yeah, sure.

02:25:42.347 --> 02:25:46.517
I need, I absolutely need that
full buy-in from my client partner.

02:25:46.517 --> 02:25:46.607
Yes.

02:25:47.027 --> 02:25:50.327
However, I don't want to be his boss.

02:25:51.582 --> 02:25:54.677
I am completely uninterested
in being anybody's boss,

02:25:54.797 --> 02:25:57.677
Emelie Cajsdotter: and I'm sure he's
perfectly happy to be part of that team

02:25:58.217 --> 02:26:00.577
a a lot easier when you do it together.

02:26:00.847 --> 02:26:03.607
Rupert Isaacson: One thing that is
really interesting with this is I have

02:26:03.607 --> 02:26:10.207
learned to hear when a horse is saying
no, and at first I thought that that

02:26:10.207 --> 02:26:13.987
was not something you would be allowed
to respect, or if you did, there'd

02:26:13.987 --> 02:26:15.937
be this unraveling of everything and

02:26:15.942 --> 02:26:16.342
Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly.

02:26:16.432 --> 02:26:16.782
Chaos

02:26:16.842 --> 02:26:17.617
Rupert Isaacson: and
people would be killed.

02:26:17.647 --> 02:26:19.147
And then I was absolutely not.

02:26:19.177 --> 02:26:20.107
Absolutely not.

02:26:20.107 --> 02:26:20.827
Absolutely not.

02:26:20.827 --> 02:26:21.097
No.

02:26:21.097 --> 02:26:24.277
Is not no forever any more than
if you say to me, Rupert, do you

02:26:24.277 --> 02:26:25.477
wanna walk the dog right now?

02:26:25.477 --> 02:26:27.727
Or Rupert, do you wanna
cup of tea right now?

02:26:27.727 --> 02:26:30.127
I might say yes, or I might say
no, but if I say no, it doesn't

02:26:30.127 --> 02:26:31.387
mean I never want a cup of tea.

02:26:32.162 --> 02:26:35.263
You know, it just means
a particular moment.

02:26:36.727 --> 02:26:37.027
Right.

02:26:37.027 --> 02:26:40.267
And, and to learn to discern
in, in, in, in that way.

02:26:40.367 --> 02:26:43.277
And of course in the hunter gathering
context, the animals do have that

02:26:43.607 --> 02:26:46.277
autonomy, but in agriculture they don't.

02:26:46.607 --> 02:26:47.117
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, exactly.

02:26:47.117 --> 02:26:49.217
There's something happening in that shift.

02:26:50.027 --> 02:26:53.987
Rupert Isaacson: And so, you know,
if we can be now able to sort of

02:26:53.987 --> 02:26:58.697
post agriculture, be able to bring
ourselves back into that relationship.

02:26:59.117 --> 02:27:00.737
But not only as hunters

02:27:01.307 --> 02:27:02.027
Emelie Cajsdotter: No, exactly.

02:27:02.027 --> 02:27:06.827
Rupert Isaacson: Or as medicine,
but just in interaction.

02:27:06.947 --> 02:27:09.107
But that doesn't also have
to be an extreme thing.

02:27:09.287 --> 02:27:11.057
Oh, now we're not allowed
to ride the horses anymore.

02:27:11.057 --> 02:27:12.047
Even put a bit in your mouth.

02:27:15.662 --> 02:27:17.072
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's not
that it's not that easy,

02:27:17.162 --> 02:27:17.642
Rupert Isaacson: too extreme

02:27:18.242 --> 02:27:20.642
Emelie Cajsdotter: or it's, it's,
it's changing your intention.

02:27:20.942 --> 02:27:21.152
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

02:27:21.242 --> 02:27:24.002
Emelie Cajsdotter: It's not so much
changing the outer circumstance

02:27:24.002 --> 02:27:25.832
as you might first think.

02:27:26.102 --> 02:27:26.882
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

02:27:27.722 --> 02:27:31.322
But it's very rare to have a
conversation like this in which

02:27:31.322 --> 02:27:33.032
that type of discernment is made.

02:27:33.272 --> 02:27:36.302
Usually when one has a
conversation like this, it's one

02:27:36.302 --> 02:27:37.622
extreme or the other extreme.

02:27:37.622 --> 02:27:37.952
Yes.

02:27:38.042 --> 02:27:38.312
Yes.

02:27:38.362 --> 02:27:45.592
It's so incredibly refreshing,
Emily, to be able to talk about stuff

02:27:45.592 --> 02:27:49.372
that sounds completely nuts from an
absolutely common sensical point of view.

02:27:50.752 --> 02:27:54.982
So that then one can get to,
well, is it okay to ride my

02:27:54.982 --> 02:27:56.662
horse or is it okay to Yes.

02:27:56.902 --> 02:28:01.042
You know, for us all to be
setting these flexible boundaries

02:28:01.042 --> 02:28:02.332
with each other mm-hmm.

02:28:02.572 --> 02:28:03.352
Species.

02:28:04.042 --> 02:28:07.672
And I think, you know, where I was
at the beginning of this, where I was

02:28:07.672 --> 02:28:10.042
saying, you know, when people say I'm
an animal communicator or whatever,

02:28:10.042 --> 02:28:14.212
and I'm always so skeptical because it
always seems I personal to that human.

02:28:14.212 --> 02:28:15.372
It's like, is it really?

02:28:15.462 --> 02:28:15.912
You know

02:28:16.362 --> 02:28:16.542
Emelie Cajsdotter: what,

02:28:18.102 --> 02:28:18.462
Rupert Isaacson: to me?

02:28:18.912 --> 02:28:19.212
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

02:28:19.212 --> 02:28:20.682
And, and I think maybe.

02:28:21.867 --> 02:28:26.217
What you are unaware of or what
people are unaware of is that maybe

02:28:26.217 --> 02:28:28.617
the actual contact point was real.

02:28:29.247 --> 02:28:33.057
But the minute my brain picks
up on what I'm experiencing,

02:28:33.057 --> 02:28:34.557
my interpretation starts.

02:28:35.037 --> 02:28:38.667
And if I'm unaware of that, I
will believe in my interpretation.

02:28:38.667 --> 02:28:44.587
So I will actually think that the horse
is really saying that because my brain

02:28:44.587 --> 02:28:52.027
is so fast in experiencing everything
as real, whether it's true or not,

02:28:52.207 --> 02:28:54.727
Rupert Isaacson: you know, I was just
having a conversation, actually, oddly

02:28:54.727 --> 02:28:57.397
enough, with another Swedish friend
who I'm gonna be doing a podcast

02:28:57.397 --> 02:29:01.357
with, and her autistic daughter,
who I've known for many, many years.

02:29:01.357 --> 02:29:05.257
And, and Lena, her daughter is
a Helena, is, is is her mother.

02:29:05.257 --> 02:29:08.107
They live in New York, but
they're Swedes non-speaking.

02:29:08.467 --> 02:29:09.367
Mm-hmm.

02:29:09.418 --> 02:29:12.058
A lot of people listening will be
aware of the current thing going

02:29:12.058 --> 02:29:13.528
wrong called the telepathy tapes.

02:29:13.928 --> 02:29:15.998
I dunno if you've come across those, but

02:29:16.298 --> 02:29:16.898
Emelie Cajsdotter: heard about them.

02:29:17.048 --> 02:29:18.638
Rupert Isaacson: Very,
very worth listening to.

02:29:18.668 --> 02:29:19.118
Massively.

02:29:19.448 --> 02:29:24.968
But basically yes, people not speaking,
it turns out seeming to be able to

02:29:24.968 --> 02:29:27.638
do it on a, on a telepathic level.

02:29:27.878 --> 02:29:28.568
Okay.

02:29:28.598 --> 02:29:36.548
And then speaking through people they
love, parents trusted, but then realizing

02:29:36.638 --> 02:29:39.338
that sometimes what the p the as the P.

02:29:40.478 --> 02:29:45.848
People pick up and become a filter
then exactly what you said, the

02:29:45.848 --> 02:29:49.508
interpretation and thoughts of the person
who's then the filter begin to cloud.

02:29:50.288 --> 02:29:50.498
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yep.

02:29:50.548 --> 02:29:52.798
Rupert Isaacson: What's said and then
what ends up being said might or might

02:29:52.798 --> 02:29:54.508
not be what the original person was.

02:29:54.688 --> 02:29:54.748
Yeah.

02:29:55.048 --> 02:29:57.058
People are learning how to navigate this.

02:29:57.328 --> 02:29:57.418
Mm-hmm.

02:29:58.018 --> 02:29:58.798
Fascinating.

02:29:59.398 --> 02:29:59.518
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

02:29:59.578 --> 02:30:01.678
Rupert Isaacson: That we could
do the same with animals.

02:30:02.668 --> 02:30:03.148
Emelie Cajsdotter: Definitely.

02:30:07.108 --> 02:30:09.328
Rupert Isaacson: Alright, well, okay.

02:30:09.328 --> 02:30:10.948
We better make another date, haven't we?

02:30:11.248 --> 02:30:11.518
Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

02:30:11.668 --> 02:30:17.188
Rupert Isaacson: In that case, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna hit the end recording button.

02:30:17.248 --> 02:30:20.416
So, listeners just know
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02:30:20.416 --> 02:30:23.796
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02:30:24.626 --> 02:30:28.376
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