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I would get stopped in the street and I still

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I still get stopped in the street by guys

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these big guys come over to me and say you're

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you're Steve Biddulph aren't you

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and I I said yeah

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what what you gonna do to me

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you know you gonna break my head off

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ha ha ha ha ha

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and and I said

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that book that that

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that effing book of yours

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that that's the story of my life mate and

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and it it really helped me

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and I just wanna let you know I

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you know sometimes

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you know

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like I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for that

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welcome back to Raising Men

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one of the founding hypotheses of this whole project

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is that there is a quiet crisis happening with boys

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today across classrooms

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playgrounds and homes boys are falling behind in school

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they're struggling with identity

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and they're being forced

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to grow up in a world that's not quite sure

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what to do with masculinity anymore

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and my guest today Steve Biddulph

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has been one of the world's leading voices on this

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for over three decades he's a psychologist

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an educator and an author of two books

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Raising Boys and The New Manhood

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and those books have shaped how millions of parents

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and teachers understand

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male development his message is simple

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but I think profound if we want strong men

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we need to raise emotionally healthy young boys

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Steve welcome to raising men

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hi Shawn

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and hello to everyone that's watching

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or listening to this great to have some time with you

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well thanks so much

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and now how did you come to focus

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on boys and men and fatherhood

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and parenting and education for your career

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okay well

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long people who are watching this can see

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I've got grey hair and I'm seriously elderly and um

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geriatric now and so

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but in the 1970s I was a young um

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keen young guy um this

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this just graduated as a psychologist

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and I got recruited to a

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a new clinic that was being set up in a

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an industrial kind of town in Tasmania

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Australia

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and this clinic was doing something pretty radical

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it was seeing the whole family

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it was a family therapy clinic

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which in those days was a new idea

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and so we uh

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someone had a a kid with all

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with some kind of problems uh

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with the law or with with behaviour or something

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my boss said the whole family's gotta come

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we're not seeing kids on their own

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which is pretty sensible thing when you think about it

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um let's yeah

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I'm astonished that that was revolutionary

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but it absolutely is

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that seems like an obvious thing to do

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yeah cause in those days

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it was like you getting your car serviced

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you know you would

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you drop your kid at the psychologist to get them fixed

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and that that never worked but

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but anyhow we

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we got to see hundreds and hundreds of families

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and these were what we call

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I think you call it in the States as well

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blue collar families that's right

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um

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families

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parents who worked at the mill or worked on a farm

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or worked in the forest and um

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and what we found was that the mums were great

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the mums pretty much knew what they were doing

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um but the dads really struggled

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and and in

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in in the families that came to see us

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you could tell that dads they love their kids

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and they work their guts out

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all their life to provide for their kids and um

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but the when it came to actually relating to their kids

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they were kind of distant and stiff and awkward

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um and

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and so I'm so began to think well

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someone's gotta help the dads and um

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and then something happened Sean

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which was more personal that I was a

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a young I

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I was married with Sharon

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I had a farm and we had a

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um

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had um

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a little boy and we are ready to have another child and

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um and the

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the pregnancy of our much hoped for second child um

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miscarried and um

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and that's the thing that happens

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very common thing

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happens to millions of people every week

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um but it really knocked me around

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I don't I didn't understand it

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but it put my wife Sharon and I

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we kind of we had a

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kind of

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a grief reaction that was on a different timetable

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her grief was different to mine

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and she didn't want to talk to me

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and I I didn't know

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what was happening and I just got very

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very sort of depressed and

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and really affected by that

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and when I tried to talk to my friends

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they didn't they just didn't come through for me Shawn

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they just didn't know what to say

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and I began to realize well

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have I even got friends you know

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I thought these were my friends um

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us guys don't um

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we don't support each other properly and um

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and this began a lot

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a journey right into the whole thing

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Robert Bly had just written Iron John

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his book about men um

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the idea of father hunger and the father wound

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and so

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manhood was the book I wrote out of that experience and

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and so I it was it was personal

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but it was also something professional

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I saw the need for

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and manhood started 500 men's groups around Australia

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and I would get stopped

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I would get stopped in the street and I still

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I still get stopped in the street by guys

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these big guys come over to me and say

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you're you're Steve Biddulph

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aren't you and I

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I said yeah

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what what you gonna do to me

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you know you gonna break my head off hahaha

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and and I said that book that

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that that effing book of yours that

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that's the story of my life mate and

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and it

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it really helped me and I just wanna let you know I

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you know sometimes

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you know like

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I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for that book

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and that was just you know

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I'm a quiet sort of guy

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and I'm very unsure of anything that I do

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but this was very affirming message

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that we were onto something here

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and we had to we had to help the guys

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and the guys would respond to that

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and they would turn around

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you get you give a man the right help

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he will turn around you know and

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and um

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it's just that no one ever did that

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and so that was this that's enough of

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of the origin sort of I'd story but

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but that's that's where it began

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that is such a powerful story I

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I love it and I love that legacy that

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that you have

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I love the fact that you get recognized on the street

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that is that's

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that's fantastic hmm

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now you have argued that uh

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and I agree with this argument

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that boys might benefit from starting school later

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um but that

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you know that's a big kind of systematic change

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and I don't think we should be holding our breath

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waiting for the culture to catch up to this

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so since

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traditional school environments can disadvantage boys

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in in areas like

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like reading or behavioral expectations

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emotional development that sort of thing

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what do we

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what can we do to support our son's education when

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you know within the current system

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that funnels them into a situation that's

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frankly suboptimal yeah okay

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well we gonna take a while to unpack that one

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um sure

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because okay well

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we got a while first of all to understand um

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what's going on is that when

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when a little baby is still in the womb

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you know it was still inside his mum um

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if it's a boy baby in his

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his

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there's a point about third trim

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third sort of month of pregnancy

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the little testicles start to pop out and start to grow

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and straight away they make testosterone

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that's their job and they start making testosterone

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and they start shaping this little fetus into a boy

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baby

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and one of the main effects they have is that they

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they put the brakes on the testosterone

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slows down the development of a boy

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and whereas a little baby girl in the womb is kind of

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kind of surging on little baby boys grow more slowly

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and we have no idea why that is

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but at the moment of birth they're

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they're probably three

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three or four weeks less developed than baby girls

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wow that that's counter intuitive yeah

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yeah and um

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and maybe it's got something to do with that

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they've got extra things they need to

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to develop but we

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we don't know but the

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the result is that with a little baby boy

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he's a little bit harder to switch on in

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it's sort of like you know

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when you hold when mum's holding him and talking

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to him and you know

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how you going little fella

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you know you

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and tickling him and and smiling at him

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you have to work a little harder to get him

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on the outside and uh

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Richard Reeves who's written about the science of this

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it's it's

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you know that they're um

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they're even more likely to

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you know to die in

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in in early childhood um

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it's a vulnerability in boy babies

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and and so

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and by the time they are starting school

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it would coming to your question

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um so age 5 or so

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4 or 5 the difference

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between the boys and girls is from 6 to 12 months

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difference Sean

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so it's a you know enormous

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the gap gets bigger

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yeah at that age

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it gets bigger and and

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and then they slowly start to catch up

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but they don't catch up till they're about 22

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and so so it's a lifelong thing

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and so girls for instance

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have puberty um

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a year and a half to two years sooner than boys do

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um and

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but if we stay with our school be

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school starting what this means is that little boys are

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can be a year behind the girl that's sitting beside

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in the desk yeah

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and and that's not good and and

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and a year behind what that

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what they're behind in is two things um

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talking

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you know be able to put a sentence together

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and express themselves and

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and getting finger control

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you know

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picking up a pen and being able to do nice work

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in which

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and schools have traditionally been very big on

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you know neat work

280
00:11:15,666 --> 00:11:19,600
you know and answering the questions and and

281
00:11:19,966 --> 00:11:21,366
and so if you're a little boy

282
00:11:21,366 --> 00:11:23,366
and you just get this pretty immediate

283
00:11:23,533 --> 00:11:24,733
you know they're not silly

284
00:11:24,733 --> 00:11:25,300
they're not stupid

285
00:11:25,300 --> 00:11:27,366
they can see that those girls are so good at it

286
00:11:27,366 --> 00:11:28,966
you know um

287
00:11:29,133 --> 00:11:30,966
what can I do um

288
00:11:31,033 --> 00:11:33,833
and so very likely to get restless

289
00:11:34,533 --> 00:11:37,466
discouraged not be able to follow the teacher

290
00:11:37,566 --> 00:11:39,666
and the whole trajectory which of course

291
00:11:39,666 --> 00:11:43,000
ends up in not very good places sometimes

292
00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:46,666
and so I began when I wrote Raising Boys

293
00:11:46,666 --> 00:11:50,733
which was 1996 um

294
00:11:51,633 --> 00:11:53,866
I said don't send them

295
00:11:53,866 --> 00:11:55,266
if you if you got any doubts

296
00:11:55,266 --> 00:11:57,800
just hold your kid back um

297
00:11:57,866 --> 00:11:59,433
send them the following year

298
00:11:59,933 --> 00:12:02,533
and so many parents as I said

299
00:12:02,533 --> 00:12:03,133
Raising Boys

300
00:12:03,133 --> 00:12:05,833
is the top selling parenting book in the world

301
00:12:05,833 --> 00:12:08,833
so far this century and

302
00:12:08,833 --> 00:12:12,100
and it was massive particularly in Europe and

303
00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:14,533
and Asia and

304
00:12:14,733 --> 00:12:15,666
and so I

305
00:12:15,666 --> 00:12:20,266
I met someone who was a Scottish education bureaucrat

306
00:12:20,666 --> 00:12:23,300
he said your book gave us so much trouble

307
00:12:23,300 --> 00:12:24,433
he said we had

308
00:12:24,433 --> 00:12:28,000
like 10,000 families held their kids back

309
00:12:28,466 --> 00:12:30,166
the year your book came out

310
00:12:30,966 --> 00:12:33,266
we had to we had empty classrooms

311
00:12:33,266 --> 00:12:35,533
we had to build other classrooms in other places

312
00:12:35,533 --> 00:12:38,300
because they this great wave came through the next year

313
00:12:38,300 --> 00:12:40,733
yeah the year that gets implemented

314
00:12:40,733 --> 00:12:42,966
you don't have any boys in school no

315
00:12:42,966 --> 00:12:44,433
that's right that's extreme

316
00:12:44,433 --> 00:12:45,433
but yeah but but

317
00:12:45,433 --> 00:12:47,066
but I get you know

318
00:12:47,066 --> 00:12:50,366
I get stopped by mums and dads

319
00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:53,866
especially when I used to do my speaking tours

320
00:12:54,266 --> 00:12:55,866
and they say we did that

321
00:12:55,866 --> 00:12:59,566
we kept our son back and and he did great

322
00:12:59,566 --> 00:13:00,233
you know he

323
00:13:00,233 --> 00:13:01,966
he was a year more mature

324
00:13:02,366 --> 00:13:04,900
he could hold his own and um

325
00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:05,666
I'd never met

326
00:13:05,666 --> 00:13:08,100
in out of thousands of people who told me that

327
00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:10,933
I never met anyone who regretted doing that

328
00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:14,133
you know cause it paid off in high school as well

329
00:13:14,133 --> 00:13:15,833
and it does does that make sense Shawn

330
00:13:15,833 --> 00:13:17,666
just as a as a dad to you

331
00:13:17,666 --> 00:13:18,266
so yeah

332
00:13:18,266 --> 00:13:19,333
I mean what your

333
00:13:19,333 --> 00:13:22,700
your description of that problem is

334
00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:24,166
I mean it's like you're talking you're

335
00:13:24,166 --> 00:13:25,966
you're telling my story of my childhood

336
00:13:25,966 --> 00:13:31,466
I I have this distinct memory when I was quite young

337
00:13:31,466 --> 00:13:34,766
maybe kindergarten aged and I went

338
00:13:34,766 --> 00:13:37,233
my parents brought me over to a friend's house

339
00:13:37,233 --> 00:13:38,900
and they had a daughter my same age

340
00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:40,333
and we were sitting down

341
00:13:40,433 --> 00:13:42,566
and the parents were socializing

342
00:13:42,633 --> 00:13:45,166
and me and the daughter were hanging out

343
00:13:45,266 --> 00:13:47,633
and she had a bunch of coloring books

344
00:13:47,866 --> 00:13:50,533
and I was coloring with her

345
00:13:50,533 --> 00:13:53,166
and she colored beautifully

346
00:13:53,166 --> 00:13:56,500
she outlined the area that she wanted to color in

347
00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:58,466
the color that she wanted to use

348
00:13:58,466 --> 00:14:00,933
and then she was just filling it in

349
00:14:00,933 --> 00:14:03,600
and it was her pictures were gorgeous

350
00:14:03,966 --> 00:14:06,533
and I desperately wanted to be able to do

351
00:14:06,533 --> 00:14:08,633
that and she was getting on me like why

352
00:14:08,633 --> 00:14:10,666
you know stop coloring outside the lines

353
00:14:10,666 --> 00:14:12,133
stop coloring outside the lines

354
00:14:12,266 --> 00:14:14,166
and I couldn't physically do it

355
00:14:14,833 --> 00:14:14,866
I I

356
00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:15,066
I I

357
00:14:15,066 --> 00:14:16,533
I was so frustrated

358
00:14:16,533 --> 00:14:18,933
because I actually couldn't physically keep

359
00:14:19,466 --> 00:14:21,566
the crayon from going outside the lines

360
00:14:22,433 --> 00:14:27,233
and it it ended up I ended up in in school

361
00:14:27,233 --> 00:14:29,800
I I have a September birthday and in September

362
00:14:30,033 --> 00:14:33,500
you can kind of fall on that edge

363
00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:36,666
where you can be in the earlier school year

364
00:14:36,666 --> 00:14:37,766
or in the later school year

365
00:14:37,766 --> 00:14:42,266
and my parents put me in school early and and then

366
00:14:42,266 --> 00:14:44,133
and to make matters worse

367
00:14:44,133 --> 00:14:48,533
I was big for my age and I started skipping grades

368
00:14:49,033 --> 00:14:50,166
and I prided myself on that

369
00:14:50,166 --> 00:14:51,633
I was so smart that I'm skipping grades

370
00:14:51,633 --> 00:14:53,233
but my emotional development

371
00:14:53,233 --> 00:14:55,666
and my intellectual development

372
00:14:56,366 --> 00:15:01,866
diverged and I was and frankly

373
00:15:01,866 --> 00:15:05,866
the best thing that ever happened to me is

374
00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:09,333
after 8th grade my parents decided to put me in a

375
00:15:09,333 --> 00:15:11,133
I was in a public school for 8th grade

376
00:15:11,233 --> 00:15:14,433
and they decided to put me in a private school

377
00:15:14,866 --> 00:15:16,733
and the private school said

378
00:15:17,066 --> 00:15:19,066
we don't want him to go into 9th grade

379
00:15:19,066 --> 00:15:20,933
we want him to repeat 8th grade

380
00:15:21,833 --> 00:15:23,866
wow and that was actually a blow to me

381
00:15:23,866 --> 00:15:26,333
because it was such a an area of pride

382
00:15:26,333 --> 00:15:27,933
that I'd skipped all these grades when I was younger

383
00:15:27,933 --> 00:15:30,833
and did all that stuff and they said listen

384
00:15:31,066 --> 00:15:34,700
like he's just he's gonna fit in better if

385
00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:36,500
he repeats 8th grade and cause

386
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:38,533
he's not gonna be the youngest kid in class anymore

387
00:15:39,066 --> 00:15:41,800
and um

388
00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:43,433
and I I

389
00:15:43,433 --> 00:15:45,600
they could very well have cited your book

390
00:15:45,766 --> 00:15:47,500
it would not have surprised me

391
00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:50,266
and that's what they did

392
00:15:50,733 --> 00:15:52,666
and it was the best thing that ever happened to me

393
00:15:53,166 --> 00:15:54,266
it wow

394
00:15:54,266 --> 00:15:55,033
it just I

395
00:15:55,033 --> 00:15:58,933
I wasn't playing ketchup anymore and I didn't feel

396
00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:01,466
I felt so much I didn't even understand

397
00:16:01,466 --> 00:16:03,333
how much anxiety and stress I had

398
00:16:03,333 --> 00:16:07,433
associated with this having to perform at this level

399
00:16:07,433 --> 00:16:08,933
that I just wasn't ready for

400
00:16:09,833 --> 00:16:13,266
and it took that all off the table for me

401
00:16:13,533 --> 00:16:18,333
and now I look at my son who has my same makeup

402
00:16:18,333 --> 00:16:20,266
he's he's only 6

403
00:16:20,666 --> 00:16:22,733
unfortunately he's a January baby

404
00:16:22,733 --> 00:16:23,433
so he's like

405
00:16:23,433 --> 00:16:26,600
fully smack dab in the middle of the school year

406
00:16:27,133 --> 00:16:28,633
um but

407
00:16:29,433 --> 00:16:29,866
and and

408
00:16:29,866 --> 00:16:31,700
but he's very big he looks

409
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:33,800
he's 6 but he looks like he's 9 or 10

410
00:16:34,033 --> 00:16:36,866
and so people have expectations of him

411
00:16:36,866 --> 00:16:39,033
that he has maturity that he doesn't

412
00:16:39,033 --> 00:16:40,033
he can't access

413
00:16:40,433 --> 00:16:44,533
and I can see that same frustration in him and

414
00:16:44,533 --> 00:16:46,233
and it is I'm

415
00:16:46,233 --> 00:16:47,433
I'm just like

416
00:16:47,433 --> 00:16:51,033
I really struggle with knowing what to do about that

417
00:16:51,033 --> 00:16:52,666
and we've had conversations where I

418
00:16:52,766 --> 00:16:54,866
where I've sat him down and said listen

419
00:16:55,233 --> 00:16:59,533
this is what happened and it can't happen that way

420
00:17:00,033 --> 00:17:02,266
people it's not fair

421
00:17:02,266 --> 00:17:04,366
but people have expectations of you

422
00:17:04,766 --> 00:17:08,566
that are well beyond your age

423
00:17:08,866 --> 00:17:10,933
and that's not fair sometimes life isn't

424
00:17:10,933 --> 00:17:13,333
fair and this is one of those times

425
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:15,066
we're gonna have to figure out how to

426
00:17:15,066 --> 00:17:16,566
how to do the right thing here

427
00:17:16,833 --> 00:17:19,233
and it's it's been a real tough thing for us

428
00:17:19,966 --> 00:17:22,300
hmm and he's only 6 still and and

429
00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:23,100
and yeah

430
00:17:23,100 --> 00:17:24,666
yeah and

431
00:17:24,666 --> 00:17:25,766
and and so yeah

432
00:17:25,766 --> 00:17:28,166
so we need to we need to do both we

433
00:17:28,166 --> 00:17:28,900
we we gotta

434
00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:30,833
as an individual mum and dad

435
00:17:30,833 --> 00:17:34,433
we have to do what we can to slow this down

436
00:17:35,533 --> 00:17:39,333
and and the school systems need to change um and

437
00:17:39,333 --> 00:17:41,833
and give people a option and

438
00:17:41,833 --> 00:17:43,566
you know in the school of the future Sean

439
00:17:43,566 --> 00:17:45,900
the average boy will be a year older than the girl

440
00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:48,033
he sits beside yeah

441
00:17:48,033 --> 00:17:48,733
and and

442
00:17:48,733 --> 00:17:51,233
and that'll and because it

443
00:17:51,466 --> 00:17:53,933
for people listening it's you

444
00:17:53,933 --> 00:17:58,166
what happens is the way girls bodies develop is they

445
00:17:58,833 --> 00:18:04,133
they get their fine motor skills at about 4

446
00:18:04,266 --> 00:18:05,766
you know they pick up their

447
00:18:05,766 --> 00:18:08,333
those crayons and pencils you were talking about

448
00:18:08,333 --> 00:18:09,566
and they're good at it straight away

449
00:18:09,566 --> 00:18:11,333
their fingers work properly

450
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:14,666
but boys develop and so what if you've got a daughter

451
00:18:14,666 --> 00:18:16,033
anyone listening who's got a daughter

452
00:18:16,033 --> 00:18:17,866
what you've got to do with girls is you build that

453
00:18:17,866 --> 00:18:19,233
you have to build their core strength

454
00:18:19,233 --> 00:18:21,833
you know so you get girls on trampolines

455
00:18:21,833 --> 00:18:22,466
you know and

456
00:18:22,466 --> 00:18:23,833
and throwing um

457
00:18:23,866 --> 00:18:27,066
throwing big netballs and baseballs sorry

458
00:18:27,066 --> 00:18:28,600
um basketballs to them

459
00:18:29,166 --> 00:18:31,466
because girls need strength in the core

460
00:18:31,666 --> 00:18:34,833
but boys develop core outwards

461
00:18:35,166 --> 00:18:36,333
and so so first

462
00:18:36,333 --> 00:18:39,666
of all they develop the trunk muscles and

463
00:18:39,666 --> 00:18:41,466
and then they develop their arms and legs

464
00:18:41,466 --> 00:18:43,366
and also the nerves running to those

465
00:18:43,366 --> 00:18:46,733
you know the nerves that control those arms and legs

466
00:18:46,766 --> 00:18:47,966
and then when they've got that

467
00:18:47,966 --> 00:18:50,800
finally it's the fingers that come last

468
00:18:51,133 --> 00:18:56,500
and so what a boy's body tells him to do is move me

469
00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:58,633
you know a little boy sitting in the classroom

470
00:18:58,633 --> 00:19:00,566
and his body is saying you know

471
00:19:00,933 --> 00:19:02,633
move me ha ha

472
00:19:02,933 --> 00:19:04,300
run around yeah

473
00:19:04,300 --> 00:19:06,033
yeah noise yeah and

474
00:19:06,033 --> 00:19:07,466
and he's he knows

475
00:19:07,466 --> 00:19:08,100
he knows you know

476
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:10,333
a good kid is a still kid

477
00:19:10,333 --> 00:19:13,233
you know in a elementary school classroom

478
00:19:13,733 --> 00:19:14,566
you're supposed to be still

479
00:19:14,566 --> 00:19:17,466
but his body's screaming and

480
00:19:17,466 --> 00:19:19,633
and guys that are listening to this

481
00:19:19,633 --> 00:19:22,000
if you think back you'll remember this feeling

482
00:19:22,566 --> 00:19:23,866
it sitting at a desk

483
00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:26,766
it hurts it actually physically hurts

484
00:19:26,766 --> 00:19:27,566
it was yesterday

485
00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:30,500
I remember that feeling like it was yesterday yeah

486
00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:31,333
yeah

487
00:19:31,333 --> 00:19:34,666
and so I work a lot with elementary school teachers

488
00:19:34,666 --> 00:19:36,866
and I and I help them to

489
00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:38,333
to realize you know

490
00:19:38,666 --> 00:19:40,533
that little guy get them moving

491
00:19:40,533 --> 00:19:43,333
you know and so a lot of our schools now they

492
00:19:43,333 --> 00:19:46,700
they have exercise at the start of the day they

493
00:19:46,700 --> 00:19:49,466
they do a lot of moving around that you you

494
00:19:49,466 --> 00:19:51,566
you can get up from your chair and

495
00:19:51,566 --> 00:19:52,166
and you know

496
00:19:52,166 --> 00:19:53,933
stretch yourself and stand up and

497
00:19:53,933 --> 00:19:56,133
and you won't get sent to the principal

498
00:19:56,333 --> 00:19:58,100
um so you

499
00:19:58,100 --> 00:19:59,833
you've got to find a boy find

500
00:19:59,833 --> 00:20:02,500
a boy friendly school and and

501
00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:07,333
and the teachers are are attuned to this Boyd needs um

502
00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:08,666
then it's it's my

503
00:20:08,666 --> 00:20:10,466
it's a whole lot better but but

504
00:20:10,466 --> 00:20:12,366
but the main one of course was

505
00:20:12,366 --> 00:20:12,900
you know that

506
00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:15,100
I mean I think that probably changed your life

507
00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:16,833
Shawn changed the trajectory of your life

508
00:20:16,833 --> 00:20:18,666
it really did it there's no question

509
00:20:18,666 --> 00:20:20,266
it changed the trajectory of my life

510
00:20:20,366 --> 00:20:22,633
no question at all and if it had happened earlier

511
00:20:23,166 --> 00:20:25,700
it would have changed it even more

512
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:26,500
even better I

513
00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:28,166
I would have gotten involved in sports

514
00:20:28,166 --> 00:20:29,333
in a different way and

515
00:20:29,333 --> 00:20:30,266
or much earlier

516
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:32,533
which has been a wonderful part of my life

517
00:20:32,533 --> 00:20:33,666
but you know I it

518
00:20:33,666 --> 00:20:35,533
you know it would have been it

519
00:20:35,533 --> 00:20:37,566
it really would have changed things for me

520
00:20:38,566 --> 00:20:39,533
let's shift gears a little bit

521
00:20:39,533 --> 00:20:42,433
I wanna talk about you know

522
00:20:42,433 --> 00:20:44,866
it's increasingly the case that households

523
00:20:45,366 --> 00:20:47,366
are becoming separate

524
00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:49,700
moms aren't living with dads as much and

525
00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:51,566
and there's a bunch of research

526
00:20:51,566 --> 00:20:53,566
that links the absence of a father

527
00:20:53,566 --> 00:20:56,733
in the home to higher risks of

528
00:20:56,900 --> 00:20:58,366
bad outcomes delinquency

529
00:20:58,366 --> 00:20:59,966
poor academic performance

530
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:01,566
and you know one

531
00:21:01,566 --> 00:21:03,100
and at least here in the US

532
00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:07,266
more than 1 in 4 children are living without a

533
00:21:07,266 --> 00:21:09,000
a male in the home

534
00:21:09,900 --> 00:21:12,766
and for a lot of parents it's just simply

535
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:15,366
that's just the reality mom and dad don't live together

536
00:21:15,366 --> 00:21:18,466
so what what do you think we can do to mitigate

537
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:21,166
the issues there I

538
00:21:21,166 --> 00:21:21,966
I

539
00:21:22,433 --> 00:21:24,133
if you're staring down that reality

540
00:21:24,133 --> 00:21:25,266
what do you do about it

541
00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:28,366
okay so again

542
00:21:28,366 --> 00:21:30,700
this is this is huge um

543
00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:33,900
and it's it's lucky this is not new

544
00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:35,833
this has been the case for

545
00:21:35,833 --> 00:21:38,966
for the whole 30 years that I've been writing about it

546
00:21:38,966 --> 00:21:40,433
that that um

547
00:21:40,533 --> 00:21:42,966
a lot of kids are in single parent homes

548
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:48,500
um and it's always really important to say to to

549
00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:50,633
to single mums that are listening to

550
00:21:50,633 --> 00:21:52,600
to the podcast um

551
00:21:52,733 --> 00:21:55,533
that women have raised boys on their own

552
00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:58,633
for thousands of years um

553
00:21:58,633 --> 00:22:01,000
and and done just fine

554
00:22:01,733 --> 00:22:04,566
had them turn out really well and

555
00:22:04,566 --> 00:22:09,100
and what I it just means you gotta understand the

556
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:11,566
the landscape and

557
00:22:11,566 --> 00:22:14,800
and because when I came I came back to live in

558
00:22:15,166 --> 00:22:17,166
the town I live in is called Launceston and

559
00:22:17,166 --> 00:22:20,333
and I I came back here um

560
00:22:20,333 --> 00:22:21,966
after a 20 year absence

561
00:22:21,966 --> 00:22:23,833
I lived in the UK and I lived in

562
00:22:23,833 --> 00:22:26,766
in up in the rainforest of New South Wales and

563
00:22:26,833 --> 00:22:29,233
and I but I came back to Launceston and

564
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:31,066
and when I go to the supermarket

565
00:22:31,066 --> 00:22:33,866
I'd sometimes bump into people who'd been

566
00:22:34,233 --> 00:22:36,533
clients of mine back in the seventies

567
00:22:37,133 --> 00:22:38,666
and and

568
00:22:38,666 --> 00:22:41,266
and it's kind of like the elephant in the room

569
00:22:41,266 --> 00:22:43,566
it's it's like um

570
00:22:43,766 --> 00:22:45,533
I'd have to ask them they say

571
00:22:45,533 --> 00:22:46,100
oh Steve

572
00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:46,700
it's us you know

573
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:48,633
we saw you when we came with our little boy

574
00:22:48,633 --> 00:22:50,966
you know and and

575
00:22:50,966 --> 00:22:54,033
and it was a single and the elephant in the room

576
00:22:54,033 --> 00:22:54,833
was well

577
00:22:55,833 --> 00:22:57,433
was it any help you know

578
00:22:57,433 --> 00:22:58,633
I was a young yeah

579
00:22:58,633 --> 00:22:59,533
how'd it turn out

580
00:23:00,166 --> 00:23:01,166
yeah how'd it go and

581
00:23:01,166 --> 00:23:02,466
and but more well

582
00:23:02,466 --> 00:23:03,466
and that they say well

583
00:23:03,466 --> 00:23:05,066
you know um

584
00:23:05,666 --> 00:23:06,500
yeah look

585
00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:08,933
it was it helped and um

586
00:23:08,933 --> 00:23:09,900
and I'd say well

587
00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:10,866
what would you

588
00:23:11,633 --> 00:23:15,233
what would you pass on to a young single mum today

589
00:23:15,233 --> 00:23:15,566
what as

590
00:23:15,566 --> 00:23:19,266
as you've raised a son I've met him he's doing great

591
00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:23,400
what would you pass on and they'd say

592
00:23:23,533 --> 00:23:25,166
it was always the same thing Sean

593
00:23:25,166 --> 00:23:25,766
they'd say

594
00:23:25,766 --> 00:23:30,833
I made sure he knew what a good man looked like

595
00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:34,133
because you can't turn into one

596
00:23:34,133 --> 00:23:35,800
if you've never seen one

597
00:23:36,566 --> 00:23:38,866
and so those mums they

598
00:23:38,866 --> 00:23:40,366
they recognise OK

599
00:23:40,366 --> 00:23:42,866
I can do I can get him 90% there

600
00:23:42,866 --> 00:23:45,400
you know if I'm loving and if I

601
00:23:45,433 --> 00:23:47,566
if I'm understanding of his boy energies

602
00:23:47,566 --> 00:23:49,533
and I don't get into negative

603
00:23:49,766 --> 00:23:51,133
um you know

604
00:23:51,466 --> 00:23:55,000
put downs and fights with him um

605
00:23:55,666 --> 00:23:58,166
then I can get 90% there

606
00:23:58,166 --> 00:24:00,266
but he's got to see some good men

607
00:24:00,533 --> 00:24:01,766
and so that's right you know

608
00:24:01,766 --> 00:24:05,966
so we we say don't send him to Kev's College of karate

609
00:24:06,233 --> 00:24:09,300
um unless you like the look of Kev

610
00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:10,100
ha ha

611
00:24:10,633 --> 00:24:11,300
you know if

612
00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:12,800
there you go you know yeah

613
00:24:13,866 --> 00:24:16,133
whether it's a sport or a musical instrument

614
00:24:16,133 --> 00:24:18,800
or whatever it is um

615
00:24:19,933 --> 00:24:21,566
role models are the real thing

616
00:24:21,566 --> 00:24:22,366
and in a second

617
00:24:22,366 --> 00:24:24,900
we can talk a bit about that if you've got time Shawn

618
00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:26,366
cause it's a big theme of mine

619
00:24:26,366 --> 00:24:28,766
but but those mums they

620
00:24:28,766 --> 00:24:31,966
you know they kind of recruited

621
00:24:31,966 --> 00:24:33,166
you know they said OK

622
00:24:33,166 --> 00:24:35,633
he hasn't got a dad um

623
00:24:35,666 --> 00:24:40,733
but he's got an uncle who's really nice guy

624
00:24:40,766 --> 00:24:42,300
you know so uncle

625
00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:43,666
can you take him fishing every

626
00:24:43,666 --> 00:24:45,500
you know couple of times a month

627
00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:46,766
and um

628
00:24:46,766 --> 00:24:48,233
Grandpa you know

629
00:24:48,333 --> 00:24:49,366
can you take an interest

630
00:24:49,366 --> 00:24:50,900
he's having a bit of a struggle

631
00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:52,933
can you take a bit of an interest in him

632
00:24:53,133 --> 00:24:54,066
um you know

633
00:24:54,066 --> 00:24:55,700
it doesn't matter who it's what

634
00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:56,133
you know the

635
00:24:56,133 --> 00:24:58,533
the guys who the two guys who live next door

636
00:24:58,533 --> 00:25:00,933
you know if if um

637
00:25:00,933 --> 00:25:02,433
he can he gets this kind of

638
00:25:02,433 --> 00:25:07,233
palette of a lot of different styles of masculinity um

639
00:25:07,333 --> 00:25:08,733
then he can begin to

640
00:25:08,733 --> 00:25:12,866
to have a bit of that and a bit of this and and

641
00:25:12,866 --> 00:25:15,566
you know learn what kindness looks like in a male and

642
00:25:15,566 --> 00:25:17,400
and um

643
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:20,266
and that it's a combination of of

644
00:25:22,066 --> 00:25:23,500
kind of taken in the the

645
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:24,033
this this

646
00:25:24,033 --> 00:25:25,433
the way of being male

647
00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:28,866
but it's also feeling validated as a male

648
00:25:29,266 --> 00:25:32,233
you know Grandpa and I hang out

649
00:25:32,233 --> 00:25:33,666
Grandpa thinks I'm alright

650
00:25:33,666 --> 00:25:35,700
even though I'm struggling at school

651
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:38,566
Grandpa says I'm a great kid and I'm good company

652
00:25:38,566 --> 00:25:41,300
and I'm good with a fishing line and

653
00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:43,466
and so um

654
00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:45,100
and that that's what those mums did

655
00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:45,966
they made sure that the

656
00:25:45,966 --> 00:25:49,200
the boy didn't go up in a kind of hostile

657
00:25:50,366 --> 00:25:53,333
a world hostile to males um

658
00:25:53,533 --> 00:25:55,300
yeah does that

659
00:25:55,300 --> 00:25:56,266
make sense Shawn

660
00:25:56,966 --> 00:25:57,566
it does well

661
00:25:57,566 --> 00:25:59,200
and I think that there's

662
00:26:00,233 --> 00:26:00,700
you know the

663
00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:02,633
the thing that we talked about in the very beginning

664
00:26:02,866 --> 00:26:05,333
where men aren't supportive of each other

665
00:26:05,333 --> 00:26:06,833
in the way that women are right

666
00:26:06,833 --> 00:26:08,300
my wife has eight friends

667
00:26:08,300 --> 00:26:09,933
that she tells every detail of her life to

668
00:26:09,933 --> 00:26:10,766
and I

669
00:26:10,933 --> 00:26:16,000
I really struggle to open up to even my closest friends

670
00:26:16,433 --> 00:26:19,166
and in that same way

671
00:26:19,833 --> 00:26:22,366
we're not we don't seek out

672
00:26:22,933 --> 00:26:26,166
you know young men to to to mentor necessarily

673
00:26:26,166 --> 00:26:29,066
or we're not necessarily going to seek out mentors

674
00:26:29,066 --> 00:26:30,900
if we're a high school age boy

675
00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:34,233
or something like that and it's so critical

676
00:26:34,866 --> 00:26:39,166
and the cultural institutions that used to exist

677
00:26:39,166 --> 00:26:41,833
to make that happen your church or

678
00:26:41,833 --> 00:26:43,533
you know local programs and those sorts of things

679
00:26:43,533 --> 00:26:44,800
those are all gone now

680
00:26:45,333 --> 00:26:46,900
and so it's not gonna happen by default

681
00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:47,433
and that

682
00:26:47,433 --> 00:26:50,266
that means you have to take responsibility of it

683
00:26:50,266 --> 00:26:51,433
you have to design it yourself

684
00:26:51,433 --> 00:26:52,566
you have to be intentional about it

685
00:26:52,566 --> 00:26:55,100
now that also means that you can customize it

686
00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:57,266
you don't just have to go to the Catholic Church

687
00:26:57,266 --> 00:26:59,866
on the corner where there might be some problems

688
00:26:59,933 --> 00:27:02,666
you can customize it for your own needs

689
00:27:02,666 --> 00:27:04,200
but you have to do it

690
00:27:04,766 --> 00:27:05,566
yeah

691
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:07,933
and and um

692
00:27:09,466 --> 00:27:10,066
knowing that

693
00:27:10,066 --> 00:27:13,733
I think people can get very intentional about it and

694
00:27:13,733 --> 00:27:14,166
and and

695
00:27:14,166 --> 00:27:14,500
and and

696
00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:16,566
and and it's not it's not rocket science

697
00:27:16,566 --> 00:27:20,100
it's not that hard the guys that are in the

698
00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:25,400
the terrific thing about the psychology of us as men is

699
00:27:25,566 --> 00:27:27,066
if someone points us to a job

700
00:27:27,066 --> 00:27:28,566
we'll do it yeah

701
00:27:28,566 --> 00:27:29,700
um and and and

702
00:27:29,700 --> 00:27:32,533
and we we have a

703
00:27:32,833 --> 00:27:34,900
a really great quality which is a

704
00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:38,333
we like to do heroic things and

705
00:27:38,333 --> 00:27:40,933
and if someone says my kid's in trouble

706
00:27:40,933 --> 00:27:41,366
you know can

707
00:27:41,366 --> 00:27:42,733
can you know it's

708
00:27:42,733 --> 00:27:43,466
I think it's it's

709
00:27:43,466 --> 00:27:45,033
you know it's gonna be a year or two

710
00:27:45,033 --> 00:27:47,066
where he needs just someone a bit that

711
00:27:47,133 --> 00:27:50,000
that's a bit involved in his life um

712
00:27:50,433 --> 00:27:51,066
so you know

713
00:27:51,066 --> 00:27:51,833
we think OK

714
00:27:51,833 --> 00:27:53,033
well if that's what you like

715
00:27:53,033 --> 00:27:53,666
yeah I'll

716
00:27:53,666 --> 00:27:55,233
I'll give it a go and

717
00:27:55,233 --> 00:27:57,933
but we would have been there is a man on the planet

718
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:00,133
I don't think that there is a man on the planet

719
00:28:00,133 --> 00:28:01,633
a decent man on the planet

720
00:28:01,633 --> 00:28:02,933
that being asked that question

721
00:28:02,933 --> 00:28:08,233
wouldn't love the opportunity to do that for somebody I

722
00:28:08,233 --> 00:28:10,100
I think I I just

723
00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:13,033
if I just can't imagine anybody I know

724
00:28:13,033 --> 00:28:15,300
any decent man I know when come

725
00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:17,633
when having that question posed to them

726
00:28:17,766 --> 00:28:19,900
every single one of them would jump at the opportunity

727
00:28:19,900 --> 00:28:21,833
to do that is yeah

728
00:28:21,833 --> 00:28:24,366
yeah it's a hopeful message

729
00:28:24,366 --> 00:28:25,700
and Sean

730
00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:28,666
can I talk about a little part of this that will make

731
00:28:28,666 --> 00:28:31,233
it make sense to people more and

732
00:28:31,233 --> 00:28:33,166
and because it's um

733
00:28:33,266 --> 00:28:35,333
it's to do with um

734
00:28:36,066 --> 00:28:39,166
there are qualities that you would wanna have

735
00:28:39,166 --> 00:28:41,066
you know when we talk about um

736
00:28:41,333 --> 00:28:45,566
a good man or a life affirming masculinity um

737
00:28:45,933 --> 00:28:48,300
that that um

738
00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:52,866
it opens up into some things and and for instance

739
00:28:53,066 --> 00:28:55,166
you know you would be patient

740
00:28:55,166 --> 00:28:57,366
you know he's always gonna grow up

741
00:28:57,366 --> 00:28:58,666
he's probably gonna be a dad

742
00:28:58,666 --> 00:29:01,400
and be a husband or a partner um

743
00:29:01,433 --> 00:29:02,966
so you want him to be patient

744
00:29:02,966 --> 00:29:04,100
you want him to be kind

745
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:07,166
you want him to have stickability and endurance

746
00:29:07,166 --> 00:29:09,500
and want him to be a man of his word

747
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:10,600
and those kinds of

748
00:29:11,533 --> 00:29:13,633
whole bunch of things now

749
00:29:14,266 --> 00:29:16,766
if we take take patience for example

750
00:29:18,133 --> 00:29:18,900
that's

751
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:22,433
it's actually quite a complicated thing to be patient

752
00:29:22,933 --> 00:29:23,966
yeah um yeah

753
00:29:23,966 --> 00:29:27,433
it's not you can't sort of say to a kid be patient and

754
00:29:27,433 --> 00:29:31,400
and I'll have it in a Powerpoint presentation and

755
00:29:31,633 --> 00:29:33,600
and because what it is

756
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:36,200
it's actually it's a way of breathing

757
00:29:37,033 --> 00:29:38,333
you know when you when you're patient

758
00:29:38,333 --> 00:29:40,633
you kind of change how you breathe

759
00:29:40,633 --> 00:29:42,366
and you change how you stand

760
00:29:42,733 --> 00:29:45,700
and yeah there's a physiological component to patience

761
00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:47,133
yeah yeah

762
00:29:47,133 --> 00:29:48,933
there's and there's a whole um

763
00:29:49,766 --> 00:29:52,466
you you drop you drop your agenda that

764
00:29:52,466 --> 00:29:53,866
you know and you say okay

765
00:29:53,866 --> 00:29:54,733
this is gonna take a bit

766
00:29:54,733 --> 00:29:56,833
I'm gonna listen to this kid while he

767
00:29:57,066 --> 00:29:58,566
unpause something out

768
00:29:58,566 --> 00:30:01,266
or I have to wait'cause he's really slow with this

769
00:30:01,333 --> 00:30:04,133
and so so patience is a very complex

770
00:30:04,133 --> 00:30:08,533
nonverbal multifaceted skill now

771
00:30:09,566 --> 00:30:13,466
the only way to learn that is it's a right brain thing

772
00:30:13,466 --> 00:30:17,133
you have to see it going on and you take and

773
00:30:17,133 --> 00:30:19,000
human beings it's called mirror

774
00:30:19,133 --> 00:30:21,700
mirror learning and and we

775
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:23,700
our nervous system I

776
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:25,566
you know I watch you and I

777
00:30:25,566 --> 00:30:28,533
and I take in your movements and your breathing rhythms

778
00:30:28,533 --> 00:30:29,333
and your the

779
00:30:29,333 --> 00:30:32,333
the way that your face moves and your eyes move

780
00:30:32,733 --> 00:30:33,700
and I've got a

781
00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:37,233
kind of a Shawn sense that I can take on board

782
00:30:37,233 --> 00:30:38,066
if I if I spend it

783
00:30:38,066 --> 00:30:39,633
you know a couple of days with you

784
00:30:39,633 --> 00:30:40,933
I could do Shawn

785
00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:45,233
and qualities that you have that I don't have

786
00:30:45,366 --> 00:30:49,066
and I can put those into my masculinity for future

787
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:50,633
you know use

788
00:30:50,833 --> 00:30:53,366
and so so the

789
00:30:53,366 --> 00:30:56,266
the the role modeling is made up of

790
00:30:56,333 --> 00:30:57,166
you know

791
00:30:58,100 --> 00:30:58,900
the a boy

792
00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:00,300
we drink in what we are

793
00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:00,500
is

794
00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:04,466
we're a bundle of all the good people we've ever met

795
00:31:05,133 --> 00:31:07,566
male or female and so if your

796
00:31:07,566 --> 00:31:10,033
if your son has seen patience

797
00:31:10,033 --> 00:31:11,533
and he's seen forbearance

798
00:31:11,533 --> 00:31:14,166
and he's seen stickability and

799
00:31:14,166 --> 00:31:17,700
and vulnerability and and all those qualities

800
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:18,066
then it's it's

801
00:31:18,066 --> 00:31:22,600
it's it's programmed into him and he can do it uh

802
00:31:22,666 --> 00:31:23,933
and and so we

803
00:31:23,933 --> 00:31:28,866
so they they need thousands of hours of male company

804
00:31:29,866 --> 00:31:35,466
um school teachers and coaches and guys on TV and and

805
00:31:35,466 --> 00:31:36,633
and um

806
00:31:37,166 --> 00:31:40,900
and in the old days that was there you would yeah

807
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:44,533
it happened by default all the yeah hmm

808
00:31:45,433 --> 00:31:50,166
yeah I wanna touch on one more really

809
00:31:50,166 --> 00:31:52,300
really big subject and I know this is something

810
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:54,333
we could probably go hours on but

811
00:31:54,333 --> 00:31:56,833
but I really wanna get your opinion about it

812
00:31:57,066 --> 00:32:01,200
and that is navigating the digital wild west

813
00:32:01,433 --> 00:32:02,366
I'm talking about like

814
00:32:02,366 --> 00:32:05,333
stuff like screen time and pornography

815
00:32:05,333 --> 00:32:06,100
and gaming

816
00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:08,766
and gambling in our pocket and all of those things

817
00:32:08,766 --> 00:32:10,500
I'm terrified about these things

818
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:11,333
this is in fact

819
00:32:11,333 --> 00:32:14,566
one of the reasons that I started this whole project

820
00:32:14,566 --> 00:32:17,966
is because I realized that the world that my boy

821
00:32:17,966 --> 00:32:21,133
is gonna graduate into is so completely

822
00:32:21,133 --> 00:32:22,866
it's a foreign territory for me

823
00:32:22,866 --> 00:32:24,666
it might as well be a different planet

824
00:32:24,933 --> 00:32:26,800
from the one that I grew up in

825
00:32:26,933 --> 00:32:29,233
and and because of these things

826
00:32:29,233 --> 00:32:33,533
how what is your advice to parents

827
00:32:33,533 --> 00:32:35,466
to navigate these boundaryless

828
00:32:35,466 --> 00:32:37,633
digital realities rather

829
00:32:37,633 --> 00:32:38,166
I mean

830
00:32:38,166 --> 00:32:40,166
I think a lot of us just stick our head in the sand

831
00:32:40,166 --> 00:32:41,466
and pretend it doesn't exist

832
00:32:41,466 --> 00:32:43,166
or pretend it's you know

833
00:32:43,166 --> 00:32:45,700
a matter of force of will or something like that

834
00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:47,100
but they rewire your brain

835
00:32:47,100 --> 00:32:50,266
what do we do what what what is your advice about that

836
00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:52,233
very important question

837
00:32:52,733 --> 00:32:56,633
Sean and it's a it's a combination of two things um

838
00:32:56,733 --> 00:33:01,300
one is just restricting the the whole phenomenon

839
00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:04,200
you know putting the brakes on um

840
00:33:04,333 --> 00:33:06,566
and the other is giving them some

841
00:33:06,566 --> 00:33:08,266
giving them some guidance and

842
00:33:08,266 --> 00:33:12,466
and tools to use when they do encounter it um

843
00:33:12,500 --> 00:33:15,233
and I can spell those out a tiny bit now in

844
00:33:15,233 --> 00:33:16,633
in my country Australia

845
00:33:16,633 --> 00:33:20,333
I don't know if you know this but about I do I love it

846
00:33:20,333 --> 00:33:23,966
go go ahead and tell everybody four weeks ago

847
00:33:24,233 --> 00:33:25,966
the government passed a law

848
00:33:25,966 --> 00:33:26,966
legislation

849
00:33:27,366 --> 00:33:30,500
that social media companies are not allowed to

850
00:33:30,500 --> 00:33:32,366
subscribe under sixteens

851
00:33:33,466 --> 00:33:38,100
and so under sixteens and are not are not able to go on

852
00:33:38,100 --> 00:33:39,533
not able to have a um

853
00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:42,133
a Facebook account an Instagram account

854
00:33:42,133 --> 00:33:43,900
a whole bunch of the of TikTok

855
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:44,866
all of those

856
00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:47,366
they can still do YouTube's

857
00:33:47,366 --> 00:33:49,000
but they can't have an account

858
00:33:49,133 --> 00:33:51,000
so that they can't be algorithmed

859
00:33:51,700 --> 00:33:53,666
and because it's the it's when you have an account

860
00:33:53,666 --> 00:33:55,500
the algorithm steers you into

861
00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:56,933
you know the matter sphere and the

862
00:33:56,933 --> 00:33:58,333
and the toxic stuff

863
00:33:58,533 --> 00:34:03,266
and so already parents are incredibly um

864
00:34:03,266 --> 00:34:06,566
relieved and and it meant that

865
00:34:06,866 --> 00:34:07,233
you know if

866
00:34:07,233 --> 00:34:10,166
I mean if you had a involved mum or dad

867
00:34:10,166 --> 00:34:12,600
they were already putting those brakes on

868
00:34:12,733 --> 00:34:17,833
but if you had a a kind of deadbeat parent who didn't

869
00:34:17,833 --> 00:34:21,233
just was too exhausted or didn't care or whatever

870
00:34:22,166 --> 00:34:23,966
it meant you didn't miss

871
00:34:23,966 --> 00:34:25,500
you didn't have a horrible childhood

872
00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:28,766
because the government had solved that problem for you

873
00:34:28,766 --> 00:34:30,266
yeah um

874
00:34:30,300 --> 00:34:33,266
and this is sweeping the world now

875
00:34:33,266 --> 00:34:35,100
there are countries in Europe are just following

876
00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:36,566
quickly they're watching our

877
00:34:36,566 --> 00:34:37,733
you know the experiment here

878
00:34:37,733 --> 00:34:39,766
and they're pretty much bringing it on board

879
00:34:39,966 --> 00:34:41,300
but meantime yeah

880
00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:42,433
I mean and it's just

881
00:34:42,433 --> 00:34:43,133
it's the kind of thing

882
00:34:43,133 --> 00:34:44,700
the government has to step in and do

883
00:34:44,700 --> 00:34:47,100
because I mean you could say oh well

884
00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:47,500
you know just

885
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:49,733
don't let your kid use social media until they're 16

886
00:34:49,733 --> 00:34:50,666
alright good luck

887
00:34:51,066 --> 00:34:52,366
that's somebody who doesn't have kids

888
00:34:52,366 --> 00:34:54,500
that's somebody who isn't getting pestered day by

889
00:34:54,500 --> 00:34:55,500
when can I get a smartphone

890
00:34:55,500 --> 00:34:58,633
when can my kid my six year old boy is asking me

891
00:34:58,633 --> 00:35:00,866
when he can have an iPhone already

892
00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:02,566
he's already pushing me on it

893
00:35:02,566 --> 00:35:04,100
and yeah I mean

894
00:35:04,100 --> 00:35:05,800
I don't it's tough

895
00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:08,066
yeah and so

896
00:35:08,066 --> 00:35:09,533
so it's like um

897
00:35:10,666 --> 00:35:13,033
we're a herd animal and and

898
00:35:13,033 --> 00:35:15,800
and it's very hard to stand against the herd

899
00:35:16,166 --> 00:35:17,733
and so um

900
00:35:17,733 --> 00:35:19,600
so it helps um

901
00:35:19,966 --> 00:35:21,133
you know there's

902
00:35:21,133 --> 00:35:21,966
it's called in Australia

903
00:35:21,966 --> 00:35:24,100
there's a thing called the Heads Up Alliance

904
00:35:24,100 --> 00:35:26,166
and it's kind of heads up from your phone

905
00:35:26,166 --> 00:35:27,366
from your device yeah

906
00:35:27,366 --> 00:35:29,633
and it's a school communities

907
00:35:29,666 --> 00:35:31,666
it tends to happen school by school

908
00:35:31,966 --> 00:35:34,533
um that the school will say look

909
00:35:34,533 --> 00:35:36,300
can every let's all get on board

910
00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:36,633
let's

911
00:35:36,633 --> 00:35:39,466
none of us give kids smartphones till they're fourteen

912
00:35:39,833 --> 00:35:42,700
um and and

913
00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:43,500
and and our whole

914
00:35:43,566 --> 00:35:44,500
let's all do this

915
00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:46,766
so it makes it easier on the individual

916
00:35:47,066 --> 00:35:49,466
um and I know we're running out of time Shawn

917
00:35:49,466 --> 00:35:50,733
and so I'll come around

918
00:35:50,733 --> 00:35:52,866
to the other part really quickly for you

919
00:35:52,933 --> 00:35:53,900
um yeah

920
00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:55,033
that um

921
00:35:55,066 --> 00:35:55,366
the

922
00:35:55,366 --> 00:35:59,600
the other part is that particularly with pornography um

923
00:35:59,666 --> 00:36:02,833
kids they will see it um

924
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:05,100
and there'll be some kid in the in

925
00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:07,066
you know usually by the age of 10

926
00:36:07,066 --> 00:36:09,200
some kid in the school will have shown them some

927
00:36:09,266 --> 00:36:11,833
horrible thing on their phone or

928
00:36:11,833 --> 00:36:14,900
or in a photograph and so we

929
00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:16,933
have to let them know you say look

930
00:36:16,933 --> 00:36:19,366
there's this thing around it's called pornography and

931
00:36:19,366 --> 00:36:22,366
and it's people doing things with each other's bodies

932
00:36:22,533 --> 00:36:23,433
and

933
00:36:24,166 --> 00:36:26,900
um and you'll be if you see you'll be kind of

934
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:27,700
you know like wow

935
00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:28,633
what's that you know

936
00:36:28,633 --> 00:36:29,700
you you wanna have a look

937
00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:31,166
cause you're curious and that's alright

938
00:36:31,166 --> 00:36:32,933
and if it's a you know picture of a

939
00:36:33,166 --> 00:36:35,033
you know girl with no clothes on

940
00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:38,133
of course we're attracted to girls and they're

941
00:36:38,133 --> 00:36:40,066
they're beautiful and um

942
00:36:40,066 --> 00:36:42,433
but there's some problems with this stuff

943
00:36:42,733 --> 00:36:46,866
and it's in particular the

944
00:36:47,066 --> 00:36:50,733
what happens in pornography is different to real life

945
00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:52,266
and um

946
00:36:52,266 --> 00:36:56,100
and in in our books we have we list the differences um

947
00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:58,233
that you can teach your kids for instance

948
00:36:58,466 --> 00:36:59,766
people are not up for sex

949
00:36:59,766 --> 00:37:02,366
the minute they first meet each other um

950
00:37:02,533 --> 00:37:09,633
and um that um and the most specific one is that um

951
00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:12,733
real girls don't like being strangled

952
00:37:13,166 --> 00:37:14,633
they don't like being slapped

953
00:37:14,633 --> 00:37:16,533
and they don't like being um

954
00:37:16,533 --> 00:37:17,700
put down you know

955
00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:20,133
with put downs and and verbal abuse

956
00:37:20,633 --> 00:37:21,700
because I think it's

957
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:24,800
70% of pornography depicts those things

958
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:25,333
wow

959
00:37:25,333 --> 00:37:29,700
and and and the actresses are are are paid you know

960
00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:30,833
they and you explain to your kids

961
00:37:30,833 --> 00:37:32,766
the actresses are often really poor

962
00:37:32,933 --> 00:37:34,133
and they have a lot of trouble

963
00:37:34,133 --> 00:37:34,900
you know paying their

964
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:38,433
for their food and their kids and their apartment

965
00:37:38,666 --> 00:37:40,166
and so sometimes they make this

966
00:37:40,166 --> 00:37:42,466
these movies to make some money and

967
00:37:42,466 --> 00:37:44,666
it's really sad that they have to do that

968
00:37:44,666 --> 00:37:47,266
and they have to pretend to like it

969
00:37:47,833 --> 00:37:48,933
uh and so

970
00:37:48,933 --> 00:37:51,933
trust me girls don't like that stuff and

971
00:37:51,933 --> 00:37:53,833
and if you do that stuff to girls

972
00:37:53,833 --> 00:37:55,466
they won't like you and

973
00:37:55,466 --> 00:37:57,466
and so you know

974
00:37:57,466 --> 00:38:00,000
so pornography is is mis

975
00:38:00,066 --> 00:38:01,666
miseducates you and

976
00:38:01,666 --> 00:38:02,466
and so

977
00:38:02,866 --> 00:38:04,900
this is the sort of thing you talk to kids about

978
00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:05,933
when they're about 12

979
00:38:06,466 --> 00:38:07,566
Shawn um

980
00:38:07,666 --> 00:38:08,800
when their age you just

981
00:38:08,833 --> 00:38:10,966
look what a powerful way to

982
00:38:10,966 --> 00:38:12,466
to communicate that and I

983
00:38:12,466 --> 00:38:14,933
I love that trigger of when they see it

984
00:38:14,933 --> 00:38:16,133
they're gonna come to you

985
00:38:16,133 --> 00:38:18,066
I mean you've got to have that kind of relationship too

986
00:38:18,066 --> 00:38:19,233
and then you have

987
00:38:19,233 --> 00:38:21,266
you get prepared for that conversation

988
00:38:21,833 --> 00:38:23,866
hmm yeah

989
00:38:23,866 --> 00:38:24,733
and and so

990
00:38:24,733 --> 00:38:27,700
and because the effects of all of these things are

991
00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:29,366
are to do with exposure with

992
00:38:29,366 --> 00:38:31,566
it's a dose related thing

993
00:38:31,566 --> 00:38:34,133
the more you see the worse you are was is

994
00:38:34,133 --> 00:38:38,166
is you don't have devices in bedrooms and um

995
00:38:38,300 --> 00:38:38,466
and and

996
00:38:38,466 --> 00:38:42,066
and only in in the public parts of your

997
00:38:42,066 --> 00:38:43,366
of your house that

998
00:38:43,366 --> 00:38:45,666
where everyone sees what each other's doing

999
00:38:45,733 --> 00:38:47,666
um yeah and

1000
00:38:47,666 --> 00:38:50,133
and very you know

1001
00:38:50,333 --> 00:38:51,466
very important

1002
00:38:52,033 --> 00:38:54,900
because the kids get so messed up with this

1003
00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:56,133
and there's huge companies

1004
00:38:56,133 --> 00:38:58,833
making a lot of money from messing your kids up

1005
00:38:58,833 --> 00:38:59,766
and so you have to fight back

1006
00:38:59,766 --> 00:39:00,566
yeah

1007
00:39:01,166 --> 00:39:02,233
wow that's

1008
00:39:02,833 --> 00:39:04,500
that is tremendous advice

1009
00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:05,333
I appreciate it now

1010
00:39:05,333 --> 00:39:08,933
I always love I like to finish off every single

1011
00:39:08,933 --> 00:39:09,966
one of these discussions

1012
00:39:09,966 --> 00:39:12,833
by asking the same question of everybody

1013
00:39:12,833 --> 00:39:14,866
you know I'm gonna put you on the spot here

1014
00:39:14,866 --> 00:39:16,533
feel free to take as much time as you want to

1015
00:39:16,533 --> 00:39:18,666
think about it but um

1016
00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:22,533
give me one principle that you think is important

1017
00:39:22,966 --> 00:39:25,633
for raising strong powerful

1018
00:39:25,933 --> 00:39:27,600
uh excellent men

1019
00:39:30,166 --> 00:39:31,733
okay look

1020
00:39:31,733 --> 00:39:35,466
I think it's a paradoxical thing Shawn

1021
00:39:35,466 --> 00:39:38,733
that tenderness is um

1022
00:39:39,233 --> 00:39:40,933
is the secret of

1023
00:39:40,933 --> 00:39:45,166
of strength and that what happens if we

1024
00:39:45,166 --> 00:39:49,266
if we tender and gentle with our little guys um

1025
00:39:49,633 --> 00:39:51,533
including when we wrestling with them

1026
00:39:51,533 --> 00:39:53,333
and fighting with them and things like that

1027
00:39:53,333 --> 00:39:57,733
where we where we never ever hurt them yeah

1028
00:39:57,733 --> 00:40:00,700
and and they know that they can um

1029
00:40:00,700 --> 00:40:03,133
that they're deeply loved um

1030
00:40:03,133 --> 00:40:06,933
then their natural empathy will stay and so

1031
00:40:06,933 --> 00:40:09,766
so when they see someone hurting

1032
00:40:10,133 --> 00:40:11,633
they'll wanna help them

1033
00:40:12,066 --> 00:40:14,233
and they'll never be the cause of hurt

1034
00:40:14,233 --> 00:40:15,633
to somebody else

1035
00:40:15,900 --> 00:40:18,133
and so it's the stuff you do in the first two years

1036
00:40:18,133 --> 00:40:19,200
you know where

1037
00:40:19,233 --> 00:40:20,966
where you're gentle with them and

1038
00:40:20,966 --> 00:40:23,233
and patient and and um

1039
00:40:23,633 --> 00:40:26,333
and even when they're just impossible

1040
00:40:26,433 --> 00:40:28,433
you know and you gotta kind of

1041
00:40:28,866 --> 00:40:30,333
you know hold them

1042
00:40:31,066 --> 00:40:34,133
you know carry them back to the car in a screaming heap

1043
00:40:34,333 --> 00:40:35,933
um um

1044
00:40:36,466 --> 00:40:40,366
don't get angry don't hurt them because when you

1045
00:40:40,366 --> 00:40:41,766
when you put hurt into a kid

1046
00:40:41,766 --> 00:40:44,966
the hurt will come out on someone else down the track

1047
00:40:45,133 --> 00:40:46,066
you know kids

1048
00:40:46,066 --> 00:40:49,133
kids who are hit will hit when they grow up

1049
00:40:49,166 --> 00:40:51,100
kids who see their dad hit their mum

1050
00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:53,366
will hit their wife as well

1051
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:54,700
and you know

1052
00:40:54,700 --> 00:40:57,600
if if you hit your kid and you hit your wife

1053
00:40:58,633 --> 00:41:01,533
it's almost a guarantee your son will end up in jail

1054
00:41:02,933 --> 00:41:05,333
guarantee and so um

1055
00:41:05,433 --> 00:41:06,066
so that that

1056
00:41:06,066 --> 00:41:07,933
those are things if if you're a dad

1057
00:41:07,933 --> 00:41:10,900
you know and this is not just a minority

1058
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:12,866
it's all of us all of us dads

1059
00:41:12,866 --> 00:41:16,333
me too we had to learn how to be safe and

1060
00:41:16,333 --> 00:41:17,366
and how to

1061
00:41:17,366 --> 00:41:20,733
to manage our strong feelings to walk away when we're

1062
00:41:20,833 --> 00:41:22,933
when we just don't know what we're gonna do

1063
00:41:23,133 --> 00:41:25,533
and so that so that a kid can say

1064
00:41:25,533 --> 00:41:28,933
I always feel safe with my dad um

1065
00:41:28,933 --> 00:41:31,366
he's he's my safety go to guy

1066
00:41:31,566 --> 00:41:34,166
that's the foundation of everything yeah

1067
00:41:34,166 --> 00:41:35,800
yeah that's what I mean

1068
00:41:36,133 --> 00:41:38,466
half of masculinity is being a protector right

1069
00:41:38,466 --> 00:41:40,466
you're being a you're a protector and you're a provider

1070
00:41:40,933 --> 00:41:42,500
yeah and you're not a protector

1071
00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:45,233
if your kid can't say that about you right

1072
00:41:45,233 --> 00:41:46,766
you know he's not protected

1073
00:41:46,766 --> 00:41:49,566
he's protected from you that's right yeah

1074
00:41:49,733 --> 00:41:50,533
yeah

1075
00:41:51,033 --> 00:41:53,300
I love that that is a fantastic principle

1076
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:55,533
thank you for adding that to my list

1077
00:41:55,533 --> 00:41:56,133
I I

1078
00:41:56,133 --> 00:41:57,766
that is that is tremendous

1079
00:41:57,966 --> 00:42:02,066
the books are raising boys and the new manhood

1080
00:42:02,066 --> 00:42:03,966
check them out this

1081
00:42:03,966 --> 00:42:07,500
you can learn more about Steve's work at Steve

1082
00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:10,833
bedoff.com the link is in the show notes

1083
00:42:10,833 --> 00:42:12,533
if this episode moved you

1084
00:42:12,533 --> 00:42:15,233
please share it with another dad or

1085
00:42:15,233 --> 00:42:17,166
a mentor a teacher or

1086
00:42:17,166 --> 00:42:18,766
or another parent

1087
00:42:18,866 --> 00:42:21,766
who's in the fight for the soul of our boy

1088
00:42:21,766 --> 00:42:24,966
Steve thank you so much for joining me today

1089
00:42:25,666 --> 00:42:26,833
great interview Sean

1090
00:42:26,833 --> 00:42:27,966
thanks very much and

1091
00:42:27,966 --> 00:42:30,633
and love to everyone who is watching or listening

1092
00:42:30,666 --> 00:42:32,200
see you later bye bye

1093
00:42:39,366 --> 00:42:42,833
raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

1094
00:42:43,100 --> 00:42:46,233
this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino