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This is Power Onward,

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the podcast that unveils how power
technology shapes your everyday life.

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You are listening to Power Onward.

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What is Powering Your World? Power Onward.

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This is Power Onward,

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the podcast that unveils how power
technology shapes your everyday life.

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What if the waste we throw away could
power the trucks that bring our world to

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life, food waste, farm waste, and
even trash from your local landfill.

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It's called renewable natural gas or RNG,

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and it's turning what we throw away into
the fuel that keeps our world moving

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from package deliveries
to long-haul trucking.

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RNG is quietly reshaping how
goods get from point A to point B,

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pushing us all closer to
a cleaner future. I'm Kim.

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And I'm Dave.

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So Dave,

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I've heard the phrase turning trash into
transportation and it really does sound

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too good to be true. So
talk to me about RNG.

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Sure, Kim. I like that
phrase. I like to think of it.

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One man's trash is another man's
treasure or fuel in this case.

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And when we think about
trash in waste streams,

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did you know that we produce
in the US over 300 million

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tons of trash per year? A
ton per person per year.

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In addition, a lot of that's food waste.

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So 30 to 40% of our food
goes into a waste stream.

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So that's just pure trash.

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And there's over 10 million
dairy cattle in the US and

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that there is 5 million tons
of wastewater biosolids,

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and those are just part of our
waste stream, which are problems.

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There are problems that we need
to resolve and RNG can be that

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solution, RNG, which is
renewable natural gas.

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We always throw those three letters out.

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Yes, so RNG comes from waste,

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but what exactly does
that process look like?

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So think about our trash
going into a landfill,

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and so it breaks down
the organic material,

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breaks down in a non-oxygen
environment, so that's anaerobic.

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And so then it eventually
produces methane and CO2

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primarily.

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Now you can also artificially
do that with digesters.

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Those are other waste streams like food
waste that's diverted to a digester

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or dairy cattle manure or
other animal waste streams or

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other ag waste.

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And then it's put into a digester
and then anaerobically digested again

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without oxygen and outcomes methane,

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CO2 and just a few other things.

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So scrub those gases up or
clean them up and now you've got

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effectively 95 or more
percent pure methane.

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That's basically renewable natural gas,

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but it's exactly the same thing as
natural gas. It's in our pipeline,

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it comes into our homes every day.

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Wow. That's not as complicated
as I thought it would be.

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It really is just a series of
chemical reactions and like you said,

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you scrub them up and clean
it up and there it is.

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Yeah,

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you just separate out the CO2 can
be captured or released separately

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and get out some moisture
and things like that.

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So what type of vehicles and operations
can actually benefit from RNG or

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renewable natural gas?

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So from a commercial and Cummins
commercial vehicle space,

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we use engines, sell
engines into transit buses,

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medium duty trucks, vocational trucks,
and then regional and line haul trucks.

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It's everywhere. We have a diesel engine,

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we have a natural gas engine
which can use renewable natural

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gas as a solution for that and then fits
right into the operation that they're

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used to today.

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So exactly how does RNG
help fleets, decarbonize?

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We had talked about sustainability,
economic efficiency,

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and even a competitive edge. Right?
Can you tell me more about that?

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That's right.

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So by using the waste stream and
producing renewable natural gas

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and then displacing higher
carbon fuel like diesel,

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it's a win-win for the environment
because we get the reduction in our

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waste streams or managed or controlled,

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and then we're not using fuel
that comes out of the ground,

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we're producing our own fuel and fleets
can use that to then they've got a

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lower cost fuel in natural
gas, renewable natural gas.

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So there's an economic win for them
and there's a sustainability or an

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environmental, and depending on what
they're going for, it's lower NOx.

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So nitrogen oxides into the
atmosphere and it's also lower

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carbon. So from a well to wheel
perspective, renewable natural gas,

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natural gas in itself is lower
carbon intensity than diesel.

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And renewable natural gas can be
an extremely low carbon intensity

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fuel. It can be negative in
some cases like dairy manure. By

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capturing that methane, it
can be 300, 400, 500 negative

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carbon intensity.

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For those who want to know what does
carbon intensity is effectively the

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equivalent CO2 per unit of energy.

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So if diesel's a hundred
CI and NG can be about 80,

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and then when you go to
renewable natural gas

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can be different sources and
methods can be different numbers.

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So landfill gas to
wastewater to dairy manure,

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and it can be really
negative. In fact, California,

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they have a low carbon fuel
standard system out there,

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so they measure all the
fuels that vehicles use.

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And renewable natural gas has
an average carbon intensity of

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minus 194 as compared to a hundred for

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diesel,

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and that's 99% of natural gas trucks and

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vehicles in California
use renewable natural gas.

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So it's a huge win for the fleets,

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for California, for the
environment for the United States.

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90% Is way more than
I would ever envision.

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I didn't realize how prevalent
and how present this all is.

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Yeah, it's 99% in California
and for the US overall it's over

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79% of commercial transportation is using

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renewable natural gas.

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So this is probably why I've been
hearing various companies such as waste

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management companies that are continuing
to displace their diesel with RNG

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trucks. Right?

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That's exactly right.

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Over 60% of new refuge trucks are c and g

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or compressed natural gas.

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And so of that majority of them
effectively are renewable natural gas.

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And some of the refuse companies produce
their own natural gas or renewable

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natural gas because again, the landfills,

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they're huge sources of
natural gas production.

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And so waste management as an example,

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does that very thing as
do many of the others.

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Dave, you mentioned CNG. So what's
the difference between CNG and RNG?

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So if you think about it,

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it's natural gas and it can be
stored on a vehicle as compressed

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natural gas or as a liquid,

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but then the source of that
gas can be fossil natural

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gas IE weld right out of the ground where

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it can be renewable natural gas.

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And so then that's coming from
a renewable biodegraded organic

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material.

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So you always see C and G
and RNG kind of thrown around

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C and G and LNG. You just really
how it gets soared on the field.

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Got it.

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You mentioned the dairy farms and the
first time one of our colleagues had told

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me that one of the dairy farm
companies that I'm a big fan of,

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they use the methane from the ways from
the cows on their farms to then fuel

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their fleets, which I thought
was freely really efficient.

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So are there any other testimonials that
showcase why RNG should matter to all

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of us or fun stories that we can
talk about on this shit show?

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Love it. I love it.

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One of our customers that we started
field testing with in the development

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program who are the X15N,

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they were going to haul
manure for air farms

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to a digester.

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And when they realized the
capability that the engine had,

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they were using charge wealth
leader engines to do it already.

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They use the 15 wheeler to then haul
milk because obviously the dairy

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cows, one of the things that
comes out of a dairy cow is milk.

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And so they collect the
milk in the Arizona area,

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and so they are able to haul
over 120,000 pound tankers

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of milk with the X 15 in.

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So now they're hauling manure with
natural gas engines or renewable

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natural gas as the fuel's being created
there and they're going out and then

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collecting the milk from those
same dairy farms and taking it

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to the dairy processing.

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So you've get almost a full circle
economy there where the cows

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produce milk and it's hauled with
renewable natural gas back to

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packaging.

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And then you have the excrement
of the dairy cows that is then

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hauled away to a digester to
then produce fuel to then run

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all of those trucks. So
it's beautiful. And in fact,

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they even named their first test truck
a big Bertha because it was such a heavy

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haul truck and they love it.

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Big Bertha is a very fitting
name for that big hauler.

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I can't get over the fact that I
am finding this full cycle very

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satisfying. And again,

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we're talking about excrement and waste
and it's just how it comes together so

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beautifully for those
companies. And again,

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very satisfying to see that full circle
and have very minimal waste come from

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all of this.

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It's moving to see RNG displacing our
diesel fuel and some might say it's

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utterly a great way to make
use of that waste stream.

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I had to work my dad joke in there, Kim.

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I'm welcoming all the dad jokes and that
one actually took me a little bit off

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guard, so that was a good one. All right.

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So I guess what I'm hearing is that
RNG isn't really new, it's just better.

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And you had mentioned the X15N engine,

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and I remember hearing that it was in
full production in our Jamestown engine

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plant up in New York.

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So how has this first year shaped the
industry's view of natural gas as a

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viable solution?

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Sure. Yeah. RNG is not new.

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It's been around forever in
various forms of how we use those

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types of waste streams,

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but the very first industrialized
RNG facility was like in

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1982 in New York on Staten Island.

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So a little fun fact for you,

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but now there's over 500
RNG production facilities.

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And so not only is the quantity
of going from one landfill on

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Staten Island to now RNG
production facilities,

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500 plus operational
today and another nearly

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500 more either in
construction or planned,

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the quantities growing and then the
technology going into 'em to really

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optimize,

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make 'em the most efficient
producers of renewable fuel.

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And so you talked about the
one year anniversary, the X15N.

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It's been fabulous, right?

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We've had people refer to it as it's
a game changer for the industry,

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which is pretty exciting to hear that
reference. And so there's been a lot of

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excitement,

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a lot of customers who were
natural gas customers with us

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adopting,

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but also customers who have
never used natural gas and

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they're trying it out, they're
moving some of their fleet over.

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And then what really gets exciting
is when we see repeat buys.

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So even within the one year we've got
customers that jumped in the line right

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away, got trucks, tried 'em out, and
now they've re-upped their order.

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And in some cases we've had
a third order from customers,

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and that's all just within one
year. It's really exciting.

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We've won some awards. I was just in
New York City on behalf of Cummins,

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receiving an award for the
X15N with FedEx Leadership

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Visionary Award from Energy Vision.

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We won an award through
TMC just earlier this year,

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and heavy duty trucking awarded
Cummins one of the top 20 new products

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just a couple years ago.

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So pretty exciting for to be a
part of a program and an engine

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that is a game changer.

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That's sensational all
of this within a year.

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It's very telling and it
speaks volume on the product.

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And for anyone who's listening on audio
platforms and not watching on YouTube,

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Dave actually has his X15N come
and shirt on to represent this.

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So he's a game changer
and a trend setter now.

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Thanks, Kim.

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Earlier, I did want to
touch on something else.

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You had mentioned the quantity of RNG
being way more available than it has been

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before, and I think that's a
common misconception about RNG.

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So tell me about some other
misconceptions about natural gas.

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Sure. Some people like said, is there
going to be enough? Is there enough?

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We continue to invent new waste streams.

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I mentioned a few,

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but those continue to grow as we
try to manage the waste that we

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continue to produce.

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We're going to see
landfill waste increase by

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60 to 70% by 2050.
That's staggering alone.

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So more RNG is coming and
we're going to continue to have

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farms and produce food
and produce waste there.

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So economically, some people
think it's expensive, right?

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00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:30,640
And it's not really natural gas is
cheaper than diesel. Generally speaking,

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it's a much more stable fuel price.

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So therefore there's a huge economic win,

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a fleet to make that investment
move over to natural gas,

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renewable natural gas,

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and then the payoff on that capital
investment. At the same time,

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get the environmental, probably
most people don't know it,

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but the US is a part of a methane pledge.

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We want to reduce
globally methane by 30% by

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2030, right?

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That's methane released into
the atmosphere and there
are all kinds of sources

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00:15:04,100 --> 00:15:07,250
of that. But some of
these ag waste landfills,

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those are sources of methane
that get into the atmosphere and

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methane. Just another
quick fact for you, Kim,

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it's 28 times worse than c2.

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So CO2 gets all the limelight it.

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Does.

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Or all the blame does, but methane,

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28 times over a hundred years
kind of look at it's 28 times

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worse than co2.

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So our biggest impact we can
make is really tackling that

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methane right away and we
can make a huge impact.

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For a long time, basically,
since before we spoke,

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I really thought carbon dioxide was the
biggest culprit. It was the biggest.

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We always talk about CO2 reduction and
learning that methane is far more toxic

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and pollutant in the air. Again, it's
a fun fact. Very interesting fact,

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but also not so fun because
nobody wants that. Nobody asked.

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For that. That's right.

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One of the things that we have discussed
now is that the displacement of

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diesel technology into
more of the natural gas,

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is this what we would
consider a bridge fuel?

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It all depends on what
you consider a bridge,

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but I think it's a very long bridge,
right? So renewable natural gas,

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natural gas engines really
are the easiest step

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into a low carbon fuel
situation for a fleet.

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It slips right into their
operation, fuels fast,

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it's very familiar kind of
technology and really can do the

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job that diesel does.
So that's the easy part,

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but it does pave the way for
other future gaseous fuels,

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perhaps hydrogen or other
technologies where it's just a lower

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carbon fuel, but maybe
some other things to learn.

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So it was an easy step to take
to start learning those things.

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And again, that bridge can be very
long. We've got a lot of natural gas,

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we've got supply of renewable natural gas,

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and if I didn't say it enough times,
it can be a carbon negative solution.

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So it's better than electricity today.

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00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,720
Electricity is not carbon free
from a well to wheel perspective,

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right? It is at the tailpipe.

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But if you consider from the source
of the fuel, whether it's coal,

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natural gas or windlow
or nuclear, renewable,

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00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,100
natural gas is the only
one that's truly negative.

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And we love baby steps. Like
you said, just ease right in.

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Dip your toes in the water's fine.

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00:17:36,530 --> 00:17:36,770
Exactly.

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00:17:36,770 --> 00:17:41,750
We got a long way for this long bridge,
so let's take that baby step. Alright,

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00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:42,950
so before we wrap,

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00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:47,870
I'd love to know what are drivers saying
about their experience with their RNG

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00:17:47,870 --> 00:17:48,703
trucks?

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00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:54,090
So the best compliment that
we've gotten is drives like mind

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00:17:54,090 --> 00:17:56,910
diesel, and that's exactly
what we're going for.

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00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:02,100
So thinking back to that bridge
question you asked now is we want

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this to be seamless.

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00:18:03,930 --> 00:18:08,700
We want it to be non-disruptive
because transportation

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00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:10,710
companies, they're trying to do a job,

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00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:15,990
whether it's hauling people in a school
bus and get 'em to their homes at night

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00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:17,280
or work in the morning,

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00:18:17,670 --> 00:18:22,650
or a shipper hauling their goods
to the store so that we can

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00:18:22,650 --> 00:18:24,600
buy it. That's what they're trying to do.

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00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:28,080
And what we want to do is make
the transition to low carbon,

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00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,650
no carbon fuels as easy and
as painless as possible.

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00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:34,590
So if we can make it drive like my diesel,

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00:18:34,890 --> 00:18:39,300
maybe a little bit quieter and maybe
there's not an odor that they may

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00:18:39,630 --> 00:18:42,810
associate with diesel
fuel, that's a great win.

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00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,220
And so we continue to win customers over.
Once they drive it, they're surprised.

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00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:49,560
They're like, wow, I didn't expect that.

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00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:53,280
And so that's the best thing we can hear.

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00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:56,610
A pleasant surprise and a
very strong user experience.

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00:18:56,610 --> 00:18:57,750
What more could we ask for?

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00:18:58,140 --> 00:18:58,973
Exactly.

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00:18:59,850 --> 00:19:01,950
All right, Dave, I really
appreciate your time today.

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00:19:01,980 --> 00:19:05,820
Thanks for helping us fuel
the conversation on how RNG
continues to drive fleets

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00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:06,653
forward.

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00:19:07,530 --> 00:19:09,210
Hey, you're welcome.
Thanks for having me, Kim.

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00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,760
Anytime. Alright, so what's the
big idea for this episode? Yes.

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00:19:14,790 --> 00:19:17,220
Renewable natural gas has
been around for a while,

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00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:20,910
but the innovation happening is
making it more powerful than ever.

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00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:24,690
It's fuel made from waste that can
power trucks, reduce emissions,

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00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,920
and keep goods moving reliably across
the country with technologies like the

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00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,330
X15N engine.

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00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:34,920
Cummins is making RNG a real part of
the journey towards destination zero.

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00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,180
The takeaway cleaner transportation
doesn't mean starting over.

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00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,610
It means getting smarter
with what we already have.

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00:19:43,950 --> 00:19:45,240
Power Onward.

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00:19:51,330 --> 00:19:55,380
Thank you for listening to Power Onward.
Your support means the world to us.

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00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,400
If you enjoyed this episode, please
don't forget to subscribe, rate,

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00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,950
and review on your
favorite podcast platform.

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00:20:02,430 --> 00:20:04,560
If you want to dig deeper
on what we covered today,

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00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,500
check out the show notes for
additional links or go to

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00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:11,460
cummins.com/podcast. Until next time,

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00:20:11,940 --> 00:20:13,230
power Onward.

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00:20:17,310 --> 00:20:18,390
We are from Cummins,

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00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,380
the company that's been innovating
toward the future for more than a hundred

337
00:20:22,380 --> 00:20:25,290
years. We're no strangers to rapid change,

338
00:20:25,410 --> 00:20:27,750
global shifts and economic uncertainty.

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00:20:28,350 --> 00:20:32,880
We want to be your constant during
the energy transition whenever,

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00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:36,960
wherever, forever, Power Onward.