Trey: Hello and welcome back to another episode of MCU Need to Know a podcast
dedicated to the Marvel cinematic universe and everything you need to know.
I'm Trey.
Jude: I'm Jude.
Today, we're going to talk about how let's say wrestle with the question.
How important are the Marvel Disney plus shows?
First, I do want to take a moment to spotlight another podcast.
Somebody I've got to know as we've mentioned before through podcasting,
but there's a really cool podcast out there called reclaiming social justice.
And it's basically a podcast on Catholic social teaching.
And I've interacted with Danny.
Just wanted to put this up front.
If anybody's interested in the stuff Danny is doing regarding social justice,
he drops once a month, actually.
The reclaiming social justice podcast, Catholic social teaching podcast.
Trey: Yeah.
And of course we'll make sure to link in the show notes as well.
Uh, I got to say kinda envious of that one a month schedule.
That sounds really
Jude: not.
Yes.
Right.
You're talking about no ability to bulk record,
Trey: no joke, but uh, no, I have gotten a chance to listen.
Uh, they, they were super nice and giving us a shout out on their podcasts as well.
Uh, so yeah, I had to, to echo what you just said, thank you so much for that.
But pertaining to this episode, like Jude said, uh, we're gonna
be talking about how important are the Marvel Disney plus shows.
So.
If you are following us on social media, you may know that we actually spotlighted
another topic that we were going to be doing, but due to some technical
difficulties, we have had to pivot.
So even though we got your responses on who your favorite MCU villains are,
uh, we're going to hold onto those until we can regroup on that episode.
So don't worry, we'll come back to that.
But today we're going to be talking about this and to set the stage.
Uh, this is a conversation that we've had a couple of times on the
podcast once with Rob Logan, whenever we were covering low-key and it
was a bit of a tangent we got on.
Uh, and then again, we had it with a TK from, there was an idea, uh, another
Marvel cinematic universe podcast.
And so in, in that.
Searching, uh, for a different topic to talk about this week, the,
the final catalyst was an article from screen rant called Disney.
Plus Marvel shows will face an MCU phase two problem in 2022 but worse.
Uh, of course we'll link to that in the show notes, but it goes on to
detail how expansive the MCU has gotten in just one year and the way that
that is going to be something they wrestle with in this current year.
Uh, and so to put it into perspective, uh, we have Dr.
Strange and the multi-verse of madness coming out in may of this year.
It is going to be the first entry in the Marvel cinematic universe
to connect to the Disney plus shows in a very substantial way.
Uh, we have Dr.
Strange.
Acknowledging the events of Westview and there's even hints at
a potential inclusion of characters from the, what if series as well.
Jude: Another example would be Jonathan majors, uh, he's reprising his role
is king, uh, the conqueror, he who remains an ant man and the wasp quantum
mania, uh, which is interesting.
Again, the, the, the phrasing here that we use this for prizing his role.
When I think his casting for quantum mania was a now.
Prior to him showing up in low-key so, yeah.
So that's another uprising.
There is kind of a interesting, yeah.
Trey: And finally, another major way that the Disney plus shows are interconnecting
with the movies themselves.
Uh, captain America, four has been announced and despite the details
still being scans, we do know that it is being pinned by Malcolm Spellman,
who was the show runner for the Falcon and the winter soldier as well.
So this year really feels like the promise of the Disney
plus shows coming to fruition.
Uh, so we're going to be weighing in, uh, with how important these shows are
going to be in the grand scheme of things.
So Jude throwing the question to you broadly speaking, what
is your ideal implementation of the shows into the movies?
Oh
Jude: my God.
Uh, I hadn't put your Kevin FYGI hat on.
Well, I'm going to be honest.
I had an answer and then that answer completely got changed.
So, yeah.
So like initially my thought was broadly speaking.
What's your ideal implementation of the Disney plus shows the movies?
Uh, man, ideally I would love to see these characters from Disney plus crossover,
which I know we're going to get Monica Rambo in the marvels Kamala Khan showing
up in the marvels with Yulaina now coming this way, uh, from new content, you know?
And so ideally I would like to see that back and forth, uh, jumping
around with characters and continuing to do like what Huck I did in adding
depth to characters into things.
That's for me the idea.
What really actually, I'm going to save this and see what is
your ideal implementation.
And then I'll say what's, what's throwing the monkey wrench in for me,
Trey: for me, I think my answer comes in two parts.
And the first part is really identifying when I think the shows are working
at their best, and that is treating these as limited series and there
will be exceptions to the rules.
Cause obviously we have low-key season two.
Uh, what if season two, even though that's kind of its own beast, but I
think because these are stories that are.
Limited runs like one division.
If there is a quote-unquote season two, I don't think it's going
to be one division season two.
It'll be like, okay, Wanda's back in another show, but it's a different story.
Uh, captain America is in another Disney plus show.
I don't think it's called the Falcon in the winter soldier part two.
Does that make sense?
So if they continue to treat these as limited series, I think that
will pave the way for them to actually have the same strategy
that they have in the movies set up.
Complete it and leave hooks for potential either sequels within its own story or
popping up in other entries as well.
Um, because if they stick to that limited series idea, I think that's what, and I,
this is going to sound super hypocritical.
Cause the whole Genesis of this episode was the recognition of how
expansive the MCU you got last year.
But if you limit it to not having that expectation of a season two for
every show, it'll cut down on the amount of buy-in an audience has to
have to catch up on stories of, okay.
I only need to watch this series for this movie or so on.
Not, oh, I have six seasons of a show to catch up on kind of thing.
Jude: Yeah.
That's my answer.
Yeah.
So.
My trip off and what changes the answer for me and not changes it, but just made
me rethink, was see I'm, I'm trying to be careful here because I'm bringing this
up and, and, and, and I'm not trying to bring it up in like a trolling way or
anything, but our arguments that we've had over star wars, Mandalorian, Boba Fett,
clone wars, and rebels, and because all of those shorts shows I've mentioned or
outside of the movies and they are cannon, and that's what Disney plus is right there
outside of the movies in, they are Canon.
And, um, and so it's making me think of, of, uh, seeing that those
shows do for me when I'm watching.
And how I view those shows within the larger star wars universe definitely
had an impact on how I thought the ideal implementation was, but you
and I see those shows differently.
Right.
And so that's, that's where it was just like, okay, wait a minute.
If I was going to side with you, these shows to me, shouldn't have nearly the
impact that I think they should have.
Ideally.
And so that's, that's, what's kind of became my hang up that
I was rethinking this question.
I got ya.
Trey: I do want to say this, and this is the conversation that you and I
were having because we got on the topic again of the star wars shows.
Uh, one of the things we noted is how the Mandalorian and now the book of
Boba Fett both had eight episodes.
I say both the both series had eight episodes and we were kind of left
lamenting like, well, how come Marvel?
One of the most successful franchises ever is only getting around six episodes
per series, but it just came to me.
I wonder if that is by design to cut down into the buy-in of the,
like, like I said, and I know this isn't the case for everybody.
Uh, I think I would consider myself of the hardcore MCU fan.
Like I am there day one for a lot of the stuff, but even at that,
there is an element of like having to binge watch a huge backlog.
That is off-putting to me, despite being that bought in.
So I wonder if there is some.
Cognizant choice of doing like, alright, we're doing six episodes to try and
stave off, having such a huge backlog to keep up with everything in the MC.
Jude: Well, you know what, and that could be a part of it, but it also wondering,
at least right now, it feels like star wars is going to be, and I'm not trying
to turn this into a star wars episode, but
Trey: it feels like, so it's only just been our phone conversations for the past
Jude: week, but it feels like star wars to the best of my knowledge right now
is going to be very Disney plus heavy.
And if, and when a movie comes down, it's further down the line.
Whereas we have doctorate, we have announced movies coming.
So the main source of contents, not going to be Disney plus.
And that's, that's kind of a bonus.
So in that sense, stylistically is different from that universe where
it feels like the bulk of it's going to be Disney plus here in star wars.
But one of the things I want to go back to, and again, I'm not
sorry, I'm not throwing you under the bus or anything like that.
It just, it made me think you were like, I love the clone wars and, and I'm not
saying you don't, but your point the other night was the prequel trilogy.
Shouldn't have to, should be able to stand on its own.
Like I shouldn't have to go consume the clone wars episodes to make this good.
And to me, that's kind of what this ser, this, this question was circling.
That, that when you said that popped into my head, I'm like, okay, wait a minute.
With these Disney plus shows, how important are they?
Well, man, is this something that needs to be required?
To say, like if the prequel can't hold up without the clone wars, which I'm not
saying, I fully agree with you on that, but if I'm going to go with you there,
that's kind of what we're looking at here.
It's like, at what point do we reach that Disney plus becomes required
viewing for the, for the movies?
Trey: The pushback I have to that is the difference with.
The prequel movies came out first and I think it's safe to say they
were universally pant, right?
Like I think that that's a safe read based on how they received at the time.
Jude: I don't think that's unfair actually.
Trey: And so since then, as you've talked about, the clone wars is a
show that has come out an animated show that has filled in a lot of
the story and a lot of the gaps.
And for those prequel trilogies that have fleshed out in the ways that the
movies themselves didn't the clone wars to me is a retroactive fix.
Whereas where these Disney plus Marvel shows are different or
different, I guess I should say is for example, we know that our first
example is multi-verse of madness.
Wanda vision came first in it and we've had our qualms with it, but it still.
Was solid on its own.
If multi-verse of madness comes out and is not good, even without the help
of Wanda vision, then I think we start to get into the problems of what I
was saying with star wars, but I think it is possible for both of these to
be good on their own and connected.
If
Jude: that makes sense.
The only pushback I give you on that would be in one division in particular,
the conversations that were coming off about who would have thought
this would make me want to rewatch age of Ultron or the added depth.
Between, well, the whole, what does grief, if not love persevering.
And now if you watch civil war, knowing that like, oh, that took place in
another room while this is conversations going on ads nor depth to that movie.
So like Juan division did that for previous movies, similar
to the clone wars, you know?
So, so like, to me, that's, it's the same, but moving forward, you
know, we've seen between Disney plus and I'm going to mention something
from, Spider-Man no way home.
Cause I am giving a qualification.
Cause right now, moment of recording it hasn't hit video on demand yet, or even
DVD or digital sales yet, but between
Trey: God, but within the trailer, right?
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah.
But like between Disney plus.
No way home and the trailer we've seen for Dr.
Strange, we have multiple times where we thought a multi-verse was happening.
Even go back to far from home where like, oh, well say where
should we been hearing about it?
And it gets difficult to start pinpointing that storyline in the larger MCU.
If these aren't must-watch does that make sense?
Trey: It does.
But I think that's where we disagree because it's not, it's not narrative
timeline that I'm concerned about.
It is like retro, like in a real world time.
Does that make sense?
Like the clone wars happened after we had already seen the
prequel trilogy is kind of thing.
But I think that's just, that just comes down to where we differ in opinion.
Jude: Right?
Well, no, no, no.
And that's what I'm saying.
Like, I'm going to grant you on the prequel trilogy is
in the clone wars, right?
Like, I'll disagree.
I'm going to grant you on that.
But if that's a, a, a must, like, like to me, that's the, that's
where what's in the balance here.
We're looking at the MCU when you start talking about, okay.
So if this is propping up the trilogy and I made the case that Wanda vision made
these movies better at, at depth, you know, similar to here, I think machine
forward is the bigger thing of like, okay.
Through one division Loki, we've seen two examples of like, we
thought multi-verse was happening.
Yes.
And then we're going to get Dr.
Strange, the multi-verse madness.
And we seen that trailer.
You haven't seen.
The trailer itself lends itself to a multi-verse.
And so there's multiple examples of, and you keep hearing, this is
what's happening and it's like, we keep getting there and we stop.
We keep getting there and we stop and we haven't really seen it.
And so, and honestly, I feel like we mentioned setting the stage,
Jonathan majors reprising his role.
He who remains like, to me, that was like, boom, we're in multi-verse stuff.
And so that, you know how, I don't see how Loki's not required
viewing, you know what I mean?
And so that's why, but it's like, uh, but we haven't that hasn't come up
in these other movies and it doesn't seem like it's going to come up.
Um, you know, like shonky located to come up in that, located
to come up in the internals.
When I say other movies, like multi-verse madness, we don't know yet.
Right.
And so that's, um, and at least from the trailer, it looks like
we're bringing back the same.
Dr.
Strange.
Yeah.
So it was the, what if required viewing and where the multi-verse shattered light.
And so that's, that's why it became difficult.
Once you brought that up about like, like, okay, these, you know, they shouldn't
have to have these to help prop them up.
Um, and whether or not I agree again, I'll grant you that, but now taking that
to the MCU, that's what it feels like.
That's the line they're trying to walk.
And I just don't know how long the MCU will be able to walk.
Trey: And I think that's part of the fear that that article that I mentioned at the
top of the episode is, is really putting forward is you've put so many pieces
into play now, and they've already proved that they can make an interconnected
world of work with the movies.
Um, but this, this, you know, everything's falling on multi-vessel man is that is
going to be the, to the true test of the promise of these Disney plus shows.
Jude: Well, you know what, and that's, what's interesting is we
keep saying that until we watch it.
I, I felt like we thought that with low-key, but we didn't see
that play out in any of the other movies, like the ramifications.
And so right now for Dr.
Strange multi-verse madness, I'd say it's clearly going to be
the most multi-verse thing, but.
Is it actually going to be world changing, you know, or at the end of multimedia
madness, is it going to be fixed?
Gotcha.
Like, does that make sense?
Yeah.
Otherwise that's, that's a lot of building up to just for Dr.
Strange and now it's away now.
It's now we're done.
Yeah.
Trey: I mean, so much of the language that I was using throughout the
coverage of the Disney plus shows was this idea of punting, the storylines.
What I was referencing is punting to Dr.
Strange.
So like it's kind of the, the put up or shut up aspect of those stories
Jude: now.
Yeah.
I mean, that's what it feels like.
Especially if like moon Knight doesn't reference it and just kind of stands
on its own inside, which is fine.
I mean, Moonlight trailer looked fantastic.
Right.
But you know, his, his, his moon night a result of this.
Of the end of Loki or is that not going to be part of the, the end result of low-key?
You know, so that's, that's, you know, some of the things, um,
you know, is moon night going to be a weird spinoff of Eternals.
Trey: Hm.
So I'm not sure if I, I am following you in that regard.
Like the reason why it's easy to go with like your, your, a reason on, okay.
Loki built up this thing and it didn't quite go, like, we thought it was wine
division built up this thing and it didn't go quite like we thought it was,
I think, because of the language of the multi-verse, that's why it feels so
tied in, but I don't know, but that's why it feels so tied into the Dr.
Strange movie.
But I don't know if there's any baggage on moon night to be tied
into internals or any of those other ones, if that makes sense.
So I think that starts to get into it.
Like, like, I don't think everything needs to be referential to each other,
but because of the nature of the scale that they were playing with and those
other entries, it is a little more in the targets than some of the other shows.
Yeah.
Jude: Well, and again, I bring those up because like you said,
how, how grand a scale the end of Loki was, you're led to believe and
how big a scale the end of eternal
Trey: twice.
Okay.
I can go out on that limb with you because, and again, uh, Eternals
has been on Disney plus out for a week, so it's no longer necessary
to put it behind the spoiler zone.
That is a huge event of having a celestial half born and left in
the ocean, uh, turned into a stone.
It is surprising.
Like it's not been brought up, uh, in other stories and it could be, it's like
you have to juggle production times.
And in contrast to when people are actually viewing things, um,
but if we are going to be in this connected universe and the MCU stuff
like that, I think does matter.
And I know that's not, we're kind of getting away from the Disney
plus aspect of it, but that is kind of as big as multi-verse stuff.
Jude: Well, well, yeah, and, and that's what I mean, like, you
know, how important these are.
I feel like I'm not, you know, when I mentioned about, um, Midnight
in the, in the connection there, it doesn't have to be connected.
Right.
Like, but I'm just wondering, like at this point, because those were global
events, you know, and I, and I get Loki, wasn't a global event, but it was kind
of thing cause he's out with the TVA, but that was the sacred timeline that
did that's no war, you know what I mean?
So it's one of those like global events that people don't know
about, but it should have an impact.
Um, and so that's, that's why, you know, it makes you wonder what point
does that ramification show up in the movie that like, oh, you do got to
go back and watch low-key or is there going to be something that, uh, yeah,
you gotta go back and rewatch, um, internals or whatever it is, you know?
Trey: Gotcha.
Well, I think that is.
Definitely on the larger scale impacts of the Disney plus shows.
But what about the smaller stuff like Falcon in the winter, soldier and Hawkeye?
Do you have any ideas on how you'd like to see that implemented?
Jude: Hmm, well, hot guy.
We just need a Kate Bishop movie.
Okay.
Mr.
Trilogies, and just let Hailee Steinfeld and Florence Pugh do their thing.
No, honestly.
Okay.
First off I already mentioned like that was my favorite Disney plus show so
far, and I would love to see more of that style, that added depth to these
characters, uh, that, that would already know having said that I love the entry of
Monica rainbow when the way they did that.
Um, the way they introduced Kate Bishop was fantastic.
You know, Yulaina crossing over was good.
How would I implement Hawkeye?
Well, Hawkeye, what was the other one?
Falcon in the winter soldier?
How can I want to say, okay.
If I going to the winter, soldier is a little bit different than Hawkeye.
Only that captain America four has been announced for in development.
So in that sense, it'd be curious to see if they do what the Russo's did with civil
war, which is kind of like at this point, knowing that we have Avengers three and
four coming, we're just going to have to say, you got to go watch the other stuff.
We're like, we're not going to bother you.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Or will they treat it kind of as an origin story in the black Panther,
bold where it's like, he's been introduced elsewhere, but you still
kind of had this origin of him still needing to earn that place as the king.
Yeah.
From the events of civil war.
If they do it that way, it could easily just stand on its own.
You don't need Falcon in the winter soldier.
So that one is slightly different for the Kate Bishop point.
I don't know how you do that one, honestly, without saying,
oh, you got to watch it.
Trey: Yeah, it's definitely get into this air.
Go ahead.
You definitely get into this area where there's almost two
aspects to the Disney plus show.
There is the deepening of some characters, uh, Sam Wilson, Bucky Barnes.
Low-key one a maximum off like all those characters will
have a deeper understanding.
If you've watched the Disney plus shows.
Kate Bishop Sylvie, uh, Moebius Rin Slayer, like all these other characters,
Isaiah Bradley, John Walker, they have had origins in the Disney plus shows.
So it's harder to, because we're going to get to some other questions
here in a second, that that will be specifically about this.
But when I was going through and sifting through these storylines, the common
thread that came to mind between what is important, what is not important is, is
this where the character was introduced.
And it's going to be an interesting juggling act for these movies
to incorporate these origin characters, because you don't
want to retread those storylines.
If captain America four comes around and whatever story it is that they're
currently pending deals with having to re or not re deals with having
to bring in Isaiah Bradley, it'll be a huge disservice to retread
those grounds as though it never happened because it was so well done.
Yeah.
Whereas like Sam Wilson, we saw him have the shield given to him.
So it's, it's caught in this weird gray area.
Uh, and the other example I'll give, I was trying to get us away from the
multi-verse stuff, but hopefully this is still within the grounded side of things.
Um, to me, if you have.
Wanda is another one of those characters where you can make the logical
leap of, okay, she's leveled up.
She's the Scarlet witch now.
But if you start going through and referencing west view, which was the
trailer does, but you don't give it the service or you haven't watched
it, it would be like watching civil war without understanding Sokovia.
Like you've just missing the foundational piece of it.
Jude: Yeah, absolutely.
And, and hearing you talk part of me says, Kate Bishop, shouldn't get a movie.
Trey: How dare you?
Jude: Um, like, like, like, it, it sounds crazy like, and as much as I want
it, but it sounds like, like the, just the grounded element and all, and all
that stuff of what her character was in this, that like show up in a movie.
Yeah.
Great.
But in order to have her own story, I'm wondering if that
should just stay Disney plus,
Trey: does that make sense?
It does, because I, when I was taking my notes, I found myself kind of questioning,
like, are we going to see characters?
Just be, and I don't even want to say stuck, but it maybe relegated
to the Disney plus side of things.
Like, yeah, let's say low-key shows up in multi-verse of madness.
Is it really going to be substantial or are we going to see them pop up?
And then the next time we get a substantial look at them, it's
in season two and he'll just be a Disney plus character.
Well,
Jude: when I think about what, as I understand it, when I think about
what the original Netflix show vision was, they were Netflix and.
They're in that universe, but they're ground level.
They might be mentioned.
They might someday end up in the shows, but there's a distinct
difference in threat level, but they take care of versus others.
Although watching the show, all three of them could have easily helped in the
battle for New York and held their own.
Um, I guess, I guess, I guess he ran too, but all for, uh,
you know, for sure Colleen ween.
Oh man.
She anyways, but no.
And I say that only because if that was your original plan, are they taking that
and putting it in these Disney plus shows that you are, like you said, you're like,
we'll throw some of these movie characters and throw them into the Disney plus we'll
bring some over, but to the actually get their own movie, they might not.
Or that might not be part of the original plan and maybe popularity might
get them a movie, but they might not have been originally planned that way.
And again, that is me speculating, but with the idea of it
becoming must-see TV yeah.
Or
Trey: not, I mean, of course all of this is us speculating.
Just, just, I mean, I know you have that understanding, but it's
always good to kind of set the stage again for the listeners.
It's all speculation on our part and I'll even go on a further limb.
I wrote my notes one way, but hearing us actually have the discussion, like
I'm starting to waver back and forth.
Like I was, I was resistant to what you were saying about like
how important could they be?
But I mean, once again, here we are finding ourselves, it's
this weird split between where parts of it is super important.
And part of it's not, which is such a disservice.
Jude: Yeah.
I think it just, I think it's just going to be one of those.
It remains to be seen.
Like we just haven't, it's weird.
We just haven't had enough content.
Uh, and, uh, and, and always why I put it that way is when you think about
what it takes for development, you know, the script writing process, hiring
people, the production post-production reshoots, when you, when you throw
all that and you have, you know, Kevin Vikki, super fans, probably master
plan and pegboard somewhere, you know, for as much content as we got.
When you think about what the, what, when you think about what those,
the shows we have got so far, moon night, which hasn't come out yet
is going to be the most original.
Not attached to previous content than any of the other things.
Right.
And so that's what I mean of like in a weird way to see fully, like what
the ideas with the Disney plus shows.
I don't know if we've had enough of them and other movies coming out yet.
She's young.
She was setting up Sean G turtles, you know, as a standalone kind of thing.
I mean, he's within the MC universe, but it's all new characters.
Spider-Man no way home.
It's in the MCU, but it is his individual franchise and third
of a trilogy, which you kind of wrapping up again, it's a trilogy.
And so you're kind of doing that with a third film.
And so, yeah, so like in that weird way, it's I think it's, it's hard to tell, you
know, um, it would be interesting to me.
I did mention like, is moon.
And I was being serious.
It would move night, reference Eternals only because part of the backstory of
in the comic, how he's, how he is placed before the statue of an Egyptian moon,
God, you know, and he is out doing his mercenary thing and this other
mercenary, um, killed and archeologists.
And part of me was like, oh, that would be a really cool beginning.
Right?
Like he's a hired mercenary with archeologists, but the things
they're looking for are because of what happened with the Eternals
and now these archeological archeologists know to look for them.
Like, does that make sense?
Yeah, that would be an interesting connection there.
Um, but again, that's a hundred percent speculation on my part with just a little
bit of comic book knowledge and saying, okay, you had this world big world event.
Maybe that's.
What people, how they make that connection to a global event of you
have some archeologists involved.
And that's what they're looking for.
You know what I mean?
Other than that, like, seriously, I'm not sure if we have enough
content, which is really weird to say,
Trey: I think it is equal parts.
The content we got last year was never intended to all be in one year.
And so in a weird way became really condensed.
And then to a lot of the movies as you put it, we're wrapping up what came before.
Um, I mean, with the exceptions of and.
Well, I guess I wouldn't say a lot half of them were wrapping up what came
before the other half were setting up something new, but because it is new,
there are no launching pads to connect.
Um, so yeah, I see what you mean in that regard.
And the other thing that I wanted to say, uh, and, and kind of a retroactive
pull back on the pushback that I had to earlier with the internals
and moon night, I mean, look at the post credit scene of moon night.
It's not Disney plus per se, but it is setting up the character
Dane with blade and turtles.
So yeah, setting up moon night with Eternals.
Yeah.
Oh my bad.
Thank you.
Yeah.
The post credit scene of a turtles, uh, setting up Dane, which I liked
that you corrected me at that point as, cause it almost gives you this
idea that I've seen Moonlight.
So,
but uh, no, uh, setting up the post credit scene where Dane is visited by
blade, we know that they're kind of setting up this horror aspect in the
MCU, which might feature, uh, Dane as I think the black night blade, Dr.
Strange and moon Knight.
So even though I was at, uh, a defensive about it event first you're right.
I mean, this is another, another anchor point for those to connect there.
I think I was really like, I came into my notes.
I said this earlier, I came into my notes thinking like, okay, we're gonna
get an answer by the end of this.
And I think we're still, we're still right back where we started.
But like you said, there's just not enough yet.
Jude: And I think that's okay.
Cause we can revisit this.
Um, and I think this is a time will tell and cause there's a lot of us
that I've heard when I say a lot of us.
I mean, listening to other podcasters and talking to other people about this, right.
I've I've heard, um, some people want a podcast that we're like, oh yeah,
you don't need to watch these at all.
And in my head I'm like, I don't know if that's true, but it could be true.
Just like I it's, it's really difficult for me to separate.
The fan of saying, how dare you, you must see these all things, right?
Trey: Oh, that was my least favorite.
Because like, I've gotten to the point where it's pretty
known that I love the MCU.
Obviously we've created a podcast about this.
And so people who are kind of on the periphery they'll sometimes ask me, Hey,
what do I need to watch before this movie?
And I hate that question because my answer, like give me enough time
and I'll find reason to tell you why you need to watch all of them.
Jude: Right.
Right.
Um, and so, yeah.
And so it's like, well, and Amity, you know, she watched Hawkeye and has not seen
black widow and she really loved Yulaina.
Pardon me?
Like, uh, to really appreciate Yulaina though.
You should have seen Hawkeye, I mean, not Hawkeye, um, black widow, so
Trey: what a slip,
Jude: but yeah, but I mean, you know, but you know what I was saying?
Right.
Like, it was just like to really appreciate Yulaina here.
You needed to see this.
And I'm almost, I'm imagining if we see Yulaina and Kate Bishop.
Yeah.
Gosh, I hope that's a small lift.
Like when we see Julaine and Kate Bishop McGinn on the big screen, that rapport
that they were able to build and Hawkeye should naturally just slip right into it.
Right?
Like, like you shouldn't have a little back and forth building
at this point, just for the sake of Hey people to watch Hawkeye.
And so at that point I'm like, yes, it is important, you know, and I guess, I
guess it comes down to a question of how important, what, what are you here for?
What are you here more for just the popcorn fund or are you here
more for seeing these characters, seeing these characters with depth
and the relationships they build.
And actually take it as a story in that sense, because if you're not, and you're
just want to see a fine special effects action movie, which these are, I guess
you don't need that extra added depth.
See, see, I can talk myself into both ways at this point.
It's just hard to tell
Trey: and that you were, it was so close to getting into the next
point that we were going to move to.
But I want to, I'm going to throw another monkey Ridge, like where this
whole conversation has been based on this idea of setups and payouts, right?
Like you set up this character and this you're going to pay it out in that.
And they're like, you know, how can you do that to an audience?
That's only seen one.
Let's just, let's pretend let's work.
An example where an audience member has only watched the movies and not the show.
What does that say about Dr.
Strange and the multi-verse of madness, where it is pretty heavy and the
promotional material that America Chavez is in that, like, does that strike it odd
to you that, and this and this, and I want to be perfectly clear because with the
internet, you always need to be clear.
There's no issues with me on the character.
I'm genuinely excited.
What's weird to me is how prominently they're featured
in the promotional material.
And we have never heard about them at all.
Um, and that's not, that's not a first-time case, but because I think
we have been conditioned so much about setups and payoffs with characters.
It's weird that it, it feels like I miss something.
Does that make sense?
Jude: It does.
It does.
Well, I would say, you know, when you get more, uh, Marto and he was like, no, the
biggest stretch of this multiverse is you and you have that other doctor strange.
Right.
Having watched, what if immediately I'm like, oh, that's this strange
Supreme strange, how did you get out?
Right.
Supreme strange.
How did you get out?
Right.
But if you've only watched the movies, it's a very different reaction
and a very different, I'm assuming it's shock of like, oh, who's this.
And you have no context of, of this person's story and why they went to this.
What drove this strange to that degree.
And I would argue not just drove him to that degree, but like at the end
of what, if he kind of re redeemed himself to a certain degree, you
know, uh, still had consequences for his actions, but you know, there was
this redemption thing at the end.
So it is.
It's it's really difficult to tell, you know what I mean?
Yeah, no, I get
Trey: ya.
I can, I can set it this way.
We're really going to have to start earning our name of MCU, need to
know and figuring out a way to, how to, to present these stories
in a way that can be beneficial to
Jude: right.
Well, because okay.
I'm imagining I can imagine a world in which I hate Dr.
Strange, the multi-verse and madness.
How dare you and others love it.
What if they start to fill in these gaps, rehashing stuff that I'm like, I've seen,
what if, why are you showing me this?
But those who have it fine, right?
Like, oh, this is so cool.
It's so awesome.
And I'm like, okay, we've done this.
Yeah.
You know, but I can also see it going the other way, where
it's like, you don't do that.
And somebody who hasn't watched, what if they're like, what,
how did this, what, you know?
And so again, that's you're right.
Multi-verse madness is going to be the real test.
At least feels that way right
Trey: now.
And again, we put this up on our social media, but I know not everybody uses it.
It was a side conversation we had with TK.
If we get too multi-verse of badness and turns out you do need to
watch, what if, okay, that's fine.
I've watched it.
I'm not going to be alienated.
If it turns out you don't need to watch.
What if, and we are retreading the same ground.
I'm right there with you.
Like I'm annoyed.
Like what was the point of watching the other thing?
Um, and man, that sounds so reductive.
Like, I, I it's of course it has its own value, but it's, you start
to get to recycled storylines
Jude: and you also get two good storylines that get dismissed.
You know, like I brought up, it was like, okay, wait a minute.
If he just easily dismisses, Westview.
Yeah.
I don't care.
Let's just do this.
Man.
That's a big moment that whole arc for Wanda, that as we've talked about an
arm odd about this , it's not fully wrapped up yet intentionally, so like
the way they left the, the ending.
Um, and it feels do use your term.
Like it got punted to Dr.
Strange.
And if there's no mention of that and it's truly, Hey, I need your help with this.
That really what it says about one division.
There's a problem.
Huge problem.
Yeah.
Well,
Trey: like you said, time will tell this is going to be one of those
episodes that will be fun to come back here at the end of next year and
end of next year, at the beginning of next year, end of this year, to see
how all these have come to fruition.
Uh, but I think we can go ahead and move into the last section of this outline
that we have, and start with this question of, of the storylines that we have seen
in the Disney plus story so far, which ones I, because I think we talked about
this, we're going to do one and then one honorable mention, which ones do you think
are must see for the future of the MCU?
Um, if you want to do your one, one, I'll do one and we'll come back.
Okay.
Jude: My one pressure off of you.
No, no, no.
My, my one is going to be a low-key because I feel like the way that
one ended that has world changing ramifications that the others didn't.
Gotcha.
So, and I realize I'm dismissing.
What if, but it's hard to tell what that connection is going to be to, to
multi martial madness, where I feel like the end of Loki was very clearly
this timeline is broken and split.
We know we're seeing who remains later.
We've seen infinity stones as paperweights.
Like it is truly to me, that's, that's the one that is most important.
Let's see.
What about you?
Trey: I'm right in there in the space with you.
Uh, you know, if I, if I'm picking out storylines within the shows
itself, uh, I think the one that is must-watch is Sylvie.
Uh, again, it's, it's similar to what you were talking about with low-key,
but Sylvie and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong is the first variant
that we see to such a degree, one that we see and get to know as much as we
do and the way her story ends and that choice that she makes at the end to do
away with he who remains is so pivotal.
Jude: It really makes sense.
I mean, my, I had a similar line of thinking again for saying low-key because
of, no, again, he who remains king Jonathan major showing up in Ant-Man
and the wasp quantum mania, when you see what that ending is, and knowing
that he's going to show up again later, The far reaching ramifications, uh,
just like with silly being a variant.
Um, and while seeing other loci variants, this one, we really get to know, uh, we
know that these variants are out there.
So like, uh, so I think we're in the same, same space.
They're just with different characters.
Trey: Yeah.
And I think there's an argument that could be made of, you know, he who remains,
we know Jonathan majors is playing him.
He's going to, uh, quote unquote reprises role in quantum mania.
But the nature of the character is that they are different.
Like that's all variance, right?
They're all their own individual characters.
So to me, the most important one is starting with that.
Yeah, which I'm curious, I staged it as the, you know, correct me if I'm wrong.
I'd be very curious to see if people want to put forth that Thanos or Nebula
or any of the characters we ran into whenever the characters went back and end
game or the first variants in the MCU.
Jude: Hm.
Well, I'm going to say no, but okay.
Trey: Okay.
We'll save it for another episode.
Jude: Yeah.
I mean, it won't take long.
I'm just because where we get the term variant from, with the TVA and that's
a, that's a strain for the timeline is.
Them going back was supposed to happen.
If that makes sense.
That's a good, that was going to be allowed to go.
Right.
So I think you have to function on, at least at that point within the continuity
that that's not a variant, because otherwise you get into the mess of like,
oh wait, that should have been stopped.
Right.
But they allowed it to go.
So, yeah,
Trey: that's a good point.
So nevermind.
They won't be the first variants.
Yeah.
So what about your honorable mention honorable benches and where it's
going to get real interesting.
I'm very curious to see where this goes.
Jude: I will mention, I'm going to say Falcon and winter soldier.
Okay.
Because of the character development we get out of a winter soldier
and white Wolf, the new suit for some of the stuff you've already
mentioned, the new suit for Sam.
Um, the struggle.
Like in him willing to take the mantle of captain America, uh, the stuff he
went through and learned through fighting Carly through his interactions with Isaiah
Bradley, you know, to, to, to you said earlier, just to basically sweep that
under the rug and say, you don't have to watch that to watch captain America for
just seems like a huge disservice to a really good, I mean, say what you want
about the, about the series itself in relation to the others, but it's a really
good storyline and you can really get good development out of Sam and Bucky.
That it's a shame that, that, that would be the one.
Swept under, um, again, nothing he gets Wanda and things at Westview.
My impression from the trailers it's already getting swept under
nothing against Hawkeye and Kate Bishop and stuff, but it feels
like those are a little bit easier.
You can roll in and kind of do some quick exposition and
you're you're up and running.
Um, whereas faculty, the winter soldier is definitely honorable mentioned.
You're honorable mentioned
Trey: my honorable mention parties going, going to party Thor.
You know, I'm going to cheat.
This is not my honorable linchpin, but I'm going to just say it quickly.
There is a part of me when I was reading my notes, that was mentioning the watcher
as a potential must-see because if it, if it is true that the, what if characters
are coming in to multi-verse of madness.
The universal constant.
And what if is the watcher?
So that becomes must watch because the only way that will work is
if there is a definitive version, both in animation and live action,
Jude: right.
And I'd be glad to see Jeffrey write live action.
Do the watcher
Trey: 100%.
But my, my other honorable mention.
Is I'm going to go with Hawkeye.
Uh, we already talked about Kate, so I'm going to go ahead and go
to the other end of the spectrum.
And that is because it is the first time we are seeing Marvel studios fully
integrate the Netflix shows with kingpin.
Um, that is something that has been up in the air for a long time.
Uh, um, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of litigating,
what is or isn't cannon, but it is the first confirmation in years.
I think that this is part of the MCU.
So if you have a character like this popup elsewhere, if you're going to
have to reset up the, I don't even want to say surprise, but the reaction
of like, oh my God, there, it's here.
It's retreading.
Same similar ground again, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
So that's, that's my honorable
Jude: mention, which again, my issues with favorite Disney plus show Hawkeye my
issues with how they handled the kingpin.
So yeah.
Yeah.
But that's a good pick and a good reason.
Trey: Yeah.
It would just be weird of like, I guess that's what my key coming
back to is the feeling of retread.
Jude: So I'll let you go first, which stories are possible for logical
leaps to be concluded, but the details will be richer if you've seen it.
Trey: Hm man.
You know what kills me?
I'm going to go.
It's funny.
I just ended with this one.
I'm going to go with Hawkeye and Clint, because I said it so much during our
coverage that I loved watching the public perception of people going
from calling them Hawkeye to being able to refer to him as Clint Barton.
Uh, I even mentioned on our wrap-up that Hawkeye to Clinton Barton is
what captain America, the winter soldier is to captain America.
Like it is the moment I think that character started getting
the respect that they deserve.
Yeah.
But when you think about what all of that's happened in that show, I
feel like it's something that you can write quick dialogue, quick,
efficient dialogue, and the next movie appears in and get it like, oh, okay.
He's, he's picked up a, uh, I don't even wanna say psychic, but
a, a partner who, uh, who works under the Hawkeye name as well.
Um, it feels like you will have a better understanding of him if
you've seen Hawkeye, but you should be able to pick up wherever he pops
Jude: up next.
Yeah.
Uh, I'm going to say that was my first pick as well.
Um, oh, wow.
And this is my favorite Disney plus show.
Um, because I'm with you.
I feel like with dialogue.
Well, and I said it kind of joking of like, okay, should
Kate Bishop get her own movie?
Or should she just show up in movies and have Disney plus shows?
Um, and, and part of me thinking I'd bring that up.
Cause it.
Yeah, you could, like you said, it was some dialogue and a
scene in a very efficient way.
Give the audience what it needs to know and just move on.
And if you want more depth, go watch this.
I think it's really set up well to do that.
And it pains me to say that.
Trey: Yep.
So do I need to move to your honorable mention or was that your
Jude: choice?
That's my choice.
My honorable mention is going to be one division.
Trey: Oh, I'm so curious
Jude: in terms of like, and part of this is unfair because part of this is
my assumption of how one division is going to be treated multi-verse madness.
Right.
And so it, it feels like at this point, like I I'm making it
honorable mentioned cause it's because I don't think you should.
I think it was such a good.
Story and to see Wanda struggle with grief and the use of grief as a big,
bad, but in terms for Wanda story, I feel like they could, they're
going to find a way around it.
So that's why I say honorable mention, put it in this category.
Now having said that, like looking ahead to other Disney
plus shows it doesn't work.
I don't see how you're going to watch house of Harkness without
watching this show, but that's one Disney plus to the next show.
And here we're, we're more worried about getting into the movies.
So, so that's, that's the honorable mention.
I'm gonna have to go with as much both.
Both of them were painful.
That's so that was a really good shows.
Trey: Yeah.
So the reason I got so excited and said, this is going to be interesting.
Is my honorable mentioned comes from one division as well.
Uh, but like I said, I got a little bit more granular.
And what you just ended on.
I think the one that I'm going to go with for honorable mention, as far as which
one will be more rich if you've seen it, but ultimately you don't need to.
I get the Harkness.
I think you can set up that character because so much of it was left nebulous
in terms of motivations and origins, outside of what we got with the Salem
trial, I could totally see coming into that character with efficient
writing of setting them up outside of their interplay with Wanda, it will
be better if you know what that is, especially whenever they team up later
or not team up, but interact later.
But I think that is a character that is still left in an area to
be reestablished without needing to see what has come before.
Right.
Jude: Yeah.
And again, the only issue I had with naming heart, I get the
Harkness is that the show is still going to be a Disney plus show.
And so in my head, I was kind of locked in and going to the movies.
Um, and so I honestly thought you were going to bring up Monica Rambo.
Trey: That one I actually have in the must-watch because again, it's in their
characters, origins are in the show.
Like I don't, I don't know how you retread that, uh, without
needing to see the original one.
Jude: Yeah, yeah.
Uh, well, the marvels, that's going to be another interesting test case.
Uh, I'll just say that because with miss Marvel showing up
and Monica Rambo showing up
Trey: and Ms.
Marvel,
Jude: I said, Ms.
Marvel, did you guys, I said, Ms.
Marvel and Monica rubbish.
Oh, no, that's okay.
Um, but I mean, you get the idea, right?
Like having them both shows coming and showing up.
Uh, so yeah, that is it's tricky.
That's going to be another test case movie.
Trey: What's great about it is it feels like this is conversations that are
actually being had in the production side of Marvel studios, but we just
get to have this dress for free,
Jude: right.
Kevin Vikki, super fan.
And he's like, I can't listen to this episode bringing work-life home.
Trey: Oh man.
Well, unless there's any parting words, I think that might wrap up this episode.
Jude: Let's land it.
All
Trey: right.
Well, if you want to chime in with what you think are the most important
storylines or the storylines that can be written away with quick dialogue in
the future appearances, let us know.
Uh, you can reach us at MC you need to know on Twitter and Instagram.
Uh, it's a great place to connect with us as well as get extra content from
this show that does not make it into the final cut of the podcast feed.
So if that's interesting to you, uh, go ahead and give us a follow.
It will greatly help us grow the show
Jude: here to join the discord links in the bottom of the show notes, where
you can find a wonderful community to talk about MCU, all kinds of things.
Of course, leave a rating review on Spotify, apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your podcast.
Yeah.
Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which
is his rendition of the Avengers theme.
You can find more of his work on the SoundCloud, which is
linked in the show notes as well.
Well, that's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening and Jude.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you tray.
We'll see you all next week.
Jude: then of course you can always.
Okay.
And of course, be sure to join the discord links in the bottom of the
show notes, where you can find a wonderful community to talk about MCU,
pets, weather, all kinds of things.
Um, make sure you leave a rating and review Spotify, Spotify.
Trey: I'm sorry, that made me
Jude: so happy for some periods.
Oh, wait.
I think he was because
Trey: I was already still giggling of you tuning the discard as a place
to talk to us about the weather.
And he said spot.
Jude: I have the weather on my mind because of the pacing.
I know, I
Trey: know.
I'm sorry.
Jude: Oh my gosh.
Trey: Okay.
I'm gonna try, I'm gonna try and call myself right at the very least mute
Jude: myself.
Okay.
Let me okay.