Welcome to The Chemical Show, the podcast where chemical means business.
I'm your host, Victoria Meyer, bringing you stories and insights
from leaders, driving innovation and growth across the chemical industry.
Each week, we explore key trends, real world challenges, and the
strategies that make an impact.
Let's get started.
Victoria: Welcome back to The Chemical Show.
Today, I am speaking with Mark Plamondon, who is the executive director of the
Alberta Industrial Heartland Association.
You may remember that Mark is previously a guest on The Chemical
Show, and we will link to that episode so that you've got access to that.
And we're going to be talking about the wonderful world of Canada and
specifically Alberta and the industrial heartland, and just the, the Benefits
of investing in that region and more.
So Mark, thanks for joining me today.
Mark: Very nice to see you, Victoria, and thank you once
again for having me on the show.
Appreciate
Victoria: Absolutely.
So just provide If you would a brief overview to you and what
your role is within the heartland and also to the heartland itself.
Mark: Glad to do so, for sure.
So, so thanks for the introduction.
Yeah, so I'm Mark Plamondon and I'm the Executive Director here at Alberta's
Industrial Heartland Association.
And our association, we represent Municipalities, five municipalities,
the city of Edmonton, city of Fort Saskatchewan, Strathcona,
Sturgeon, and Lamont counties.
These all have land in an area called Alberta's Industrial Heartland,
which sits in the northeast corner of the Edmonton region in Alberta.
So just for those in the show, if you go to Alberta and then Edmonton
in the northeast corner of Edmonton, there's a 582 square kilometer heavy
industrial cluster called Alberta's Industrial Heartland, it is Canada's
largest hydrocarbon processing region.
will talk a little bit later about, the competitive advantages are and why
companies are building projects here.
But what we do, our association, we're funded by those municipalities and
we are in sort of three main areas.
We're focused on, promoting the region.
So there's a huge marketing component.
do a fair amount of international travel.
We work with companies when they're assessing their next capital project.
We want them assess the industrial heartland and see if their next
major capital project makes sense in Alberta's industrial heartland.
Victoria: Yeah
Mark: we also have a significant effort in improving the region.
So improving is either from a competitiveness standpoint, an
infrastructure standpoint, a regulatory streamlining standpoint.
This is all done through advocacy and partnerships with government and
with other like minded stakeholders.
And then we also have somebody focused on, you know, communications, social license,
making sure that there's good dialogue between industry and community and that
there's support for growth in the region.
In a growing region, it's obviously very helpful if you have supportive
community and strong social license, which we have here.
So we spend a fair amount of time on that as well in partnership with the,
with the companies that operate here.
Victoria: Yeah, and I think that's so critical.
I think the role that you guys play is so critical because of course investment
doesn't just happen It happens with the support of the community, with the support
of organizations such as yours, the municipality, and also other companies.
I think it's, it's so critical the role that you play in this area.
Mark: Yeah, there's so many things that need to line up for a company
to reach final investment decision.
And so helping roadblocks out of the way or streamline the process, or just
getting the information that they need to make a decision or partnering them with
the right people to get their project moving forward, all part of the process
here, and that's what we're doing here.
Victoria: Awesome.
I love it.
So when we last spoke Dow had just announced its FID for
its net zero cracker, ethylene cracker in Fort Saskatchewan.
And to the extent that you're able to, how is that progressing?
Mark: yes, it was probably, it was over a year ago.
Maybe 12 months ago or so, 11, 12, 13 months ago, I think,
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: that Dow reached final investment decision for this.
They're the world's first net zero, ethylene manufacturing facility here
in the industrial heartland, which was a, very exciting announcement for our
region because it's such a large project.
Not only is it such a large project, it is, of course, that first net zero
ethylene manufacturing facility that really puts Industrial Heartland on
the map, I think, because, of course, Dow is a global company and they can
put capital in a lot of places and they have chosen to do this project
here in Alberta's Industrial Heartland.
I can't speak.
to their project, of course, but just in general, in the industrial
heartland, there's been so much activity.
And of course, the big project is the Dow project.
We are seeing ramping up of of traffic through through the region.
We are seeing workforces grow, to meet the growing construction
profile, primarily at the Dow site.
We'd expect, you know, peak labor to be reaching here, but probably
by the of this year, but we're
Victoria: Wow,
Mark: Growth their site and then in a number of other areas as well when
it comes to construction activities, because since the Dow project reached
FID, there's been a couple other final investment decisions, which
are in the public domain as well.
Shell reached final investment decision on their Polaris project,
which is a carbon capture project at the Shell Scotford site.
Victoria: that's excellent.
Mark: about carbon sequestration capability in this region and why that's
a competitive advantage for us here.
also Shell, in partnership with ATCO and Power, announced their Atlas project,
which is a sequestration project.
So these both these projects were announced final investment
decisions at the same time.
So there's activities for that project as well.
also seeing, um, there's current construction activities
in fractionation facilities.
There's fractionation expansions in the region.
So there's, Lots of activity that we're, approaching a 50 billion, 45 to 50 billion
of assets in the ground here now, and before the end of the decade will be
well over 60 billion, in assets, um, 60 to 65 billion in assets, probably with
growth and fractionation, of course, the net zero ethylene manufacturing.
There's also, Lindy has announced that they're building a 2 billion hydrogen
facility on the Dow site to meet the needs of the net zero path to zero project.
So just,
Victoria: amazing.
So it is.
I haven't been up to Canada in several years, but I can only
imagine that it is really hustling and bustling in that region.
Not just because the invest those direct investments, but
of course, we also know that.
I think ACC had published some data a while ago that says something
like seven jobs are created for every job that's created inside
the petrochemical industry, right?
Whether it be grocery stores and schools and doctors and nurses and all of that.
So that's a huge impact for your region.
Mark: Yeah.
There's both the direct and the indirect.
There's, there's, there's all that stuff.
There's the indirect impacts as well, but also the spend that the companies have
amongst other companies, the supply chain.
I mean, of course, there's the effects from workers staying in hotels and eating
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: that stuff.
But, but even the spend of companies in the industrial heartland, a real
economic engine for the region, for the province and for the country.
Victoria: Yeah.
So what about the Heartland makes it such an attractive
place for companies to invest?
Yeah.
Mark: you know, really optimistic about the future growth here
for the industrial heartland.
And there's, there's a few things have been competitive advantages.
For decades, of course, and then there's really the growth in the,
in the drive for low carbon products and industrial decarbonization
that enhances that further.
But, you know, just to start the main, the main economic driver in this part
of the world is the low cost feedstocks.
So low cost methane, propane, ethane, butane, particularly in the petrochemical
space coming out of natural gas, natural gas liquids, you know, in North America,
it's the lowest cost feedstocks in North America, your discount rate here versus
Gulf Coast is typically between 30 to 40%.
I mean, that, of course, ranges day to day, but on average,
you're looking 30 to 40 percent discount for those feedstocks here.
And when your
Victoria: that's real money.
Mark: When your largest operating cost is your feedstock, having a
significant discount for your, your methane or your propane or whatever
you're using as your feedstock, that's a tremendous competitive advantage.
And as you know, those feedstock costs in North America are a lot cheaper
than other parts of the world, too.
There's, there's a few pockets, of course, that have still have really strong
advantage, but in general, North American.
Feedstock costs are low relative to other jurisdictions and here in
Alberta where we have a discount compared to say the Gulf Coast.
So there is a tremendous economic advantage and that's driven
investment here for decades.
What's really been, I'm going to say, interesting over the last five years,
five to seven years is the interest in producing lower carbon products.
Thanks.
And
Victoria: Right.
Mark: leads to companies looking at, carbon capture and sequestration is,
is 1 of the technologies that large emitters would look to this jurisdiction.
It's world leading when it comes to that.
You know, we've got region has operating carbon sequestration assets in this
region been operating since 2015.
There's the Alberta carbon trunk line is a carbon trunk line that leads to
additional sequestration capability, That was built with capacity of 14.
6 million tons a year of CO2 carrying capability.
It's
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: you know, around 10%.
Victoria: Wow.
Mark: got 90 percent and capability in that asset that companies can take
advantage of that that that capital is
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: the ground and companies can come in and work with the
Alberta carbon trunk line to look to sequester, but that's just one
Victoria: Yeah, I think that's, I think that's so significant because
of course we know that there's a lot of companies and and regions talking
about building carbon capture and sequestration, and it's expensive, right?
It is an expensive project to build.
It is time consuming to build any of that, and so for that to be
part of your core infrastructure is a real significant advantage.
Mark: Well, it's infrastructure today that's working today.
So it's
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: It's it's operational today.
So it's not like it's something that we're hoping to do, or that this region has
that companies in this region have built.
pipeline.
That's an example.
But I also want to elaborate on that a little bit.
The government of Alberta.
to three years ago, um, they allocated poor space and they
identified carbon hub operators.
They awarded carbon hub operator status.
So there's 6, 6 of them in the, in the, in the region that are now progressing
projects for, or at least doing the studies that are necessary and trying
to understand, if they'll advance their, their, their carbon hub operator
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: Um, one of them is the Atlas project that I mentioned
earlier, but there's, there's.
You know, so for those five others that are under study,
so that would give optionality.
So you're building a large emitting petrochemical facility.
You have optionality or you will have optionality as to where you can,
how you can manage your emissions.
And so carbon management is another key advantage here that I'm going
to say that over the last 5 to 7 years is really maybe the.
10 years on the outset but has really come to the forefront
here as a competitive advantage.
So you've got low cost feedstocks, carbon management capability.
Then you have logistics here with respect to proximity or getting the markets.
So you know, two class one railways, service the area, moving products
out to the West Coast or the East Coast or down to the Gulf Coast,
good accessibility into the United States markets with the rail networks.
And then, of course, you know, we've got 582 square kilometers of flat
pre zone, heavy industrial land,
Victoria: yeah,
Mark: workforce here.
You come and look at the industrial cluster here.
We encourage companies to come and have a look here.
Victoria: yeah.
Mark: the cluster and you'll realize that the skilled workforce that's here
to operate and build these facilities.
It's a bonafide cluster as skilled workforce to do what needs to be done.
And I'm really excited and optimistic about the future
Victoria: I think that's exciting.
And I think a few points of that are so critical.
So number one, I think just the natural gas backbone from a feedstock perspective
on a relative basis, it's already a relatively clean feedstock as compared
to heavy oils as a pairs compared to coal, which, uh, you know, again, is
being utilized as a feedstock for some chemical products elsewhere.
So I think just starting with that and then layering in the carbon capture,
layering in the infrastructure and, in the workforce becomes compelling.
Cause you know, as you know, and we've talked about this before, I've
spent some time developing projects, back in my corporate days and, you
know, location, location, location.
Close to the customer, close to the feed stocks and close to your transportation
is, is critical, but also being in a friendly, and well skilled business
environment is really critical.
Mark: I just want to add one more thing to Victoria's is, you know, we've
done some work over the last year.
We will be rolling that out probably here in the first quarters.
We've done some work benchmarking our industrial cluster here versus
other some other global industrial clusters from a because you
mentioned, you know, carbon intensity.
And so we're doing that from a nESG lens basically.
And so that, you know, the carbon intensity of your feedstocks,
your grid, the capability or the diversity of your workforce and
skill set and proximity of workforce.
Like there's a whole bunch of measures between the environment and social
and governance range that we've used to benchmark the industrial
heartland versus other jurisdictions.
And, you know, really for a functioning industrial cluster, it's
world leading from that standpoint.
So for companies globally where that matters, this will
be a jurisdiction for them.
Victoria: We're in a changing world, right?
In a lot of ways.
When I think about just the global economics and the geopolitical
climate, the U S has just inaugurated a new president.
Canada's poised for another federal election.
There's just a lot going on.
How does this influence investment in Alberta?
How, how are you managing and navigating some of those changes?
Mark: Yeah.
So it's a good question.
I mean, You'll hear often and when you're talking with business
leaders and others, like, you know, uncertainty is, is always a headwind for
investment and you can understand why.
I mean, when you're investing other people's money and lots of it, hundreds
of millions or billions of dollars, you know, boards of directors and
executives, or there'll be, there'll be a tendency to wait and see what the, if
the uncertainty is going to become more certain before you can make a decision.
And
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: typically uncertainty.
Leads to bit of a pause in capital investment.
And so there's not much we can do about the uncertainty, but what
we can do is a few pillars, a few things that we, that we focus on.
So of course we have an advocacy component that we work with like
minus stakeholders on where we're advocating for specific policies.
Over the years, we've been fortunate that there's been good traction in
a lot of things that have improved competitiveness and improved the
regulatory streamlining here in Alberta.
So, you know, we put in our best efforts to work with like minded partners and
governments to try to, improve the region from a number of fronts, that
hopefully improves the certainty for, for companies that are looking to invest.
So that's, so that's, um, one.
We also, Help companies navigate the system here, the regulatory framework, or
Victoria: Hmm.
Mark: right people in the government to navigate so that they can
understand the complexities of the system a little bit better.
The actual uncertainty itself, though, it's at very top
levels of governments, that's.
You know, it'll be what it'll be.
And I
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: will figure it out.
It's a bit of a wait and see, I think, at the moment, and we'll figure out
Victoria: Hmm.
Mark: the world's going to look like from a policy standpoint and
make the appropriate decisions.
Victoria: Yeah, makes sense.
And I know we've also seen, a few, uh, supply chain challenges recently.
In fact, the, the U.
S.,
somehow all of our ports have decided that this was the year to strike.
We saw it in Canada.
We saw it in the U.
S.
How do you see that playing out going forward?
And did, did you have any role in, uh, or were you also watching on
the sidelines like the rest of us?
Mark: Well, again, the message around, you know, stable, certain logistic
supply chains is so important for
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: in
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: Being landlocked.
It's so important for us to be able to move products and not not only just being
landlocked, but also the majority of the products in this region are exported.
So we need access to export markets.
And so,
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: that uncertainty again is is significant headwind for investment,
especially from an international investor.
So just being a voice there, of course, is what the best that we can do and
trying to really raise awareness that look from an international standpoint,
any hiccup or interruption to logistics, supply chains, logistics to getting
products to international markets that would cause international investors in
their overall assessment, that would probably be a strike against this
Victoria: Yeah.
But they're also, but it's also temporary, right?
Those things have gotten resolved.
Those are temporary, I guess blips in the system.
And in fact, I spoke with Kevin Yttre, who's a investment banker a
few weeks ago on the chemical show.
And he really talked about the U S being a very attractive market for
Asian investors, because they're looking for secure and growing markets.
I would assume the same is true in Canada.
Are you seeing the same interest in international investment?
Mark: So for our region, absolutely.
There's a lot of interest from Asian companies primarily looking
to invest in projects that would export the products to their markets.
Victoria: Hmm.
Mark: I mean, there are some companies that are looking, they want to access
North American markets and build a facility here get a foothold into
the North American markets that there's some interest there too.
But I'd say a lot of our interest from Asian customers or Asian clients,
companies that are looking to build projects or look at petrochemical
projects, I'd say the largest interest is building a facility in the
industrial heartland and then accessing.
Victoria: Yeah.
Yeah.
Mark: here.
Now, proximity and the connectivity from here is really attractive more so than
I'd say from the Gulf Coast in the U.
S.
Because getting our product to the West Coast Port of Prince Rupert, for example,
that shipping time from the Port of Prince Rupert into Let's say Japan, for example,
that shipping time is about half than if you came out of the Gulf Coast, had
Victoria: No kidding.
Mark: the canal and then over.
So
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: we've got really good proximity to Asian markets from
West Coast, British Columbia,
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: Coast of Canada, and we've got good rail connectivity to the West Coast.
So we do have a lot of companies, a lot of interest in looking at
building facilities in the industrial heartland, moving products to meet
the growing needs in Asian markets.
Victoria: Yeah.
Makes sense.
And again, as we talked about with the infrastructure, feedstock costs, skilled
workforce, it becomes really cost effective as well to build and export.
Mark: Well, definitely.
I mean,
Victoria: Yeah,
Mark: know, clustering has advantages.
There's a skill set here.
Some outputs from one become inputs to another.
So when you have a bona fide cluster like you have in the industrial heartland
and you have the connectivity like we have here, think that's a, gives a
lot of confidence to foreign investors when they're looking to invest and see,
okay, this is a function of cluster world class companies operate here.
Victoria: yeah,
Mark: here that we need to understand.
Victoria: So I know that you are gearing up for the Canadian
Petrochemical Summit in June.
And this is, I guess the second time you guys have hosted this event, and
it's really, an opportunity to showcase the heartland, and what it can do.
So can you tell us just a little bit more about that event?
Mark: Absolutely.
So I believe it's their third time, to be
Victoria: Okay, third, yeah.
Mark: may even be fourth, but I, I have to
Victoria: Alright, so I haven't been counting.
That's okay, we'll fix it.
Ha ha ha.
Mark: it's a, it's a very focused Canadian petrochemical summit, but we're really,
it's really, small group intended to really have the decision makers and key
participants in the petrochemical sector.
So it's so that it'll be high value for them to be in such an
intimate setting, having discussions around the petrochemical industry
issues of the day, potential opportunities to work together, etc.
So, this, this year is June 17th to 19th.
It'll be in Lake Louise.
It's the first time we're doing it out at Lake
Victoria: Nice.
Mark: in the mountains.
So think about the setting, right?
You've
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: a fairly, small focus group in the mountains.
You're there for 2 to 3 days.
You're not going anywhere from there.
You're, you're doing some wonderful things out in the mountains.
You're either.
You're enjoying maybe some golf or hiking, etc.
before the conference happens.
But, but it's not like at the end of the afternoon, you're
going for dinner somewhere else.
No, you're all, you're there at Lake Louise.
It's very focused.
It's a great networking opportunity, really focused on having decision
makers and participants in the petrochemical sector there.
So that's what this event is all about.
And it's in Lake Louise in the middle of June, June 17th and 19th.
Victoria: I like that.
Well, and it's, and it's, you know, I've, I've got my own conference
that I run in the fall, the chemical summit, but, different focus.
But yet I also recognize the uniqueness of having a small event focused just on
leaders and building those relationships, having the right conversations is so
critical because it doesn't necessarily happen a lot in our industry.
A lot of the events are big.
Dine and dash meet and greets where you're running all day long.
And so having the opportunity to spend time together and connect and
reflect and grow is really critical.
Mark: Yeah, both styles have a role for sure.
We just
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: that this focused event specifically on petrochemicals, we
think that's adding value in the end, like we're not in the business like
Victoria: No,
Mark: We're in
Victoria: no.
Mark: of facilitating development and
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: advance projects.
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: we just want to the end result is that right?
We want companies to be able to connect and advanced conversations and ideas.
And so having a focus conference, we think helps with
Victoria: And I, and I know that the theme this year is navigating global markets.
What can you tell us about the theme and some of the speak speakers or
topics that, people will expect?
Mark: know, navigating global markets really just highlights that, you know, the
petrochemical sector here, it is a global conversation, particularly what we just
talked about with some of the geopolitics.
So, you know, the types of themes that we talk about and speakers
we get in, we'll get experts.
We usually start off with, you know, global market trends in the petrochemical
sector and then drill down into, you know, specific feedstock outlooks,
in Western Canada and North America.
And then there's conversations around supply chain.
And we talked about.
some supply chain challenges.
It's always useful to have a conversation on on geopolitics and world politics and
get experts in on that and that as well.
I think that's interesting for some of the
Victoria: Absolutely.
Mark: So, we found it.
We've had really good feedback.
It's a very
Victoria: Cool.
Mark: couple of days.
And,
Victoria: Good.
Mark: so, you know,
Victoria: I love it.
Mark: com or Canadian cdn, cdn petrochemicalsummit.
com to get more information.
Victoria: Okay.
Awesome.
We'll include a link so that people can find it as well.
So final question for you, Mark, you have worked with a lot of global leaders,
both in the public sector, in the private sector, What characteristics
really stand out about a great leader?
Mark: I mean, business schools look at leadership all the time and there's
courses on leadership and, know, at least in my experience, and first of all, let's
talk from personal experience and then
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: from what I've seen.
That leadership position, of course, the first and foremost thing is you
need to actually, Take a leadership position because in the absence
of taking a leadership position, there's a void and then people fill
that void with their own narratives.
So,
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: before you say whether they're a great leader, just to
be a leader, it sounds trivial and maybe a little bit trite.
But, that leadership position where you're out front saying this is, How I think we
need to go and get people to rally behind you taking that leadership positions.
First and foremost, whether you're a great leader or not, the differences
between what that leadership position is.
Are you doing it with integrity and conviction and driving that forward?
So, I guess from what I've seen, when I look at that I've worked for,
who I think have been great leaders
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: have been great leaders is, is you're driving that leadership position,
but you're doing so with integrity and conviction you're convincing
people that you're coming from the right place and then you, you have
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: to say that this is, this is the way forward.
And those two things, coupled with that, just stepping out
front and being the leaders.
I know it's, it's a bit of a circular conversation because in order to be a
leader, you got to take a leadership position, of course, but you've seen
in politics in, in, in some cases where you have a void, like if, if you
don't have your, your leader coming forward and saying this, then there's
a void and others and others fill it,
Victoria: Yeah.
I mean, this whole thing around owning your space, you got to own your space.
Mark: business as well.
You're going to
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: my view, anyway, your leader needs to be Communicating up front that this
is the position you've got integrity and conviction and then your workers and
your company and everyone will see that.
And I'm going to follow this because it's coming from the right place.
It's got conviction and that's at least off the top of my head.
What I've seen.
I know that when I was initially put into in the leadership roles.
Victoria: Yeah.
Mark: I remember that being sort of the initial stress was something's
happened and you need to be taking a leadership position up front and, and
that's, that's the step you need to take.
That was the first real big learning for me when I was in my, put in
my first leadership position.
It's like, wait a second.
Okay.
This is on me.
This isn't, I can't wait for someone else.
I've got to be out front taking that position.
And, and sure you're in conversation with the people that you work
with, but you've got to be the one up front taking that position
and with integrity and conviction.
off the top of my head.
Victoria.
I
Victoria: That's good.
I really love that though.
And I think it, I think it's great.
And I think first of all, the integrity and conviction are really critical.
But to your point that making that switch into a leadership position, I
used to sometimes tell people, I'm like, it's now your turn to define the work.
And the path like we go along in our careers so long as being
worker bees, if you will, right?
Like letting somebody else lead and set direction.
And that first flip into a leadership role when it's like, oh no, I'm
setting the direction is so critical.
People are people expected of you.
And that's also how you define yourself.
Mark: so it's really interesting because until you put in that position, or
at least for me, until I was put in that position, you don't really think
of it that way until you're in it.
So the
Victoria: Yeah,
Mark: me in my career, you know, I sort of had a pretty
big jump into a leadership role
Victoria: yeah,
Mark: So I'm now leading a foreign operation.
You know, and everyone's looking to you.
Victoria: yeah,
Mark: need to be up front taking that position.
I remember that specifically, it was like, okay, I'm, I'm, everyone's
looking to me to set direction and, and
Victoria: yeah.
Mark: up and do it.
And so great leaders for me of you're not leaving a void.
You're taking a leadership position with, with, again, with
integrity and conviction to try
Victoria: I love it.
I think it makes a lot of sense and I know that's what you do
every day at the Heartland.
Mark: Well, hopefully my team thinks so.
Victoria: I'm sure they do.
I'll ask them afterwards.
How's that?
Well, Mark, this has been a great conversation.
Thank you so much for joining me on the chemical show.
Mark: Victoria, thanks for having me again, and I really
appreciate the conversation.
Victoria: Absolutely.
And thank you everybody for listening.
Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will talk again soon.
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