WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:01.890 mike_bifulco: Hello, and welcome back to APIs. 00:00:01.890 --> 00:00:02.730 You won't hate the podcast. 00:00:02.980 --> 00:00:04.530 My name is Mike Filko. 00:00:04.530 --> 00:00:07.490 I'm one of your co-hosts, and today I'm joined by, uh, two 00:00:07.490 --> 00:00:11.129 friends of mine, including the, uh, ever wandering Phil Sturgeon. 00:00:11.129 --> 00:00:11.930 Phil, how are you today? 00:00:12.514 --> 00:00:13.535 Track 1: Hey, how you doing? 00:00:13.704 --> 00:00:14.814 Um, uh, I'm good. 00:00:14.884 --> 00:00:16.535 I actually dunno where I currently am. 00:00:16.745 --> 00:00:19.974 Um, but uh, I have internet and that seems like the most important thing. 00:00:19.980 --> 00:00:20.710 mike_bifulco: that's good. 00:00:20.710 --> 00:00:23.750 Yeah, you seem to be in good health too, which is, uh, usually a relief. 00:00:24.193 --> 00:00:26.673 yeah, and we're here today also speaking with our friend 00:00:26.673 --> 00:00:28.153 Josh Twist from Zulo, Josh. 00:00:28.153 --> 00:00:29.353 Uh, thanks for joining us today. 00:00:29.463 --> 00:00:31.033 josh_twist: Yeah, no, great to be here. 00:00:31.073 --> 00:00:34.073 Great to sort of meet you guys in person and uh, yeah, thanks 00:00:34.073 --> 00:00:34.833 for having me on the show. 00:00:35.268 --> 00:00:35.778 mike_bifulco: of course. 00:00:35.963 --> 00:00:39.043 Interestingly enough, uh, you guys have come on board as a sponsor for 00:00:39.043 --> 00:00:42.523 one of our sites, that, uh, APIs Walnut Hate has developed along 00:00:42.523 --> 00:00:44.123 the way called Open api.tools. 00:00:44.403 --> 00:00:46.963 Open api.tools is just what it sounds like. 00:00:46.963 --> 00:00:50.763 It is a, open source list of tooling for working with open api. 00:00:50.963 --> 00:00:53.963 So if you're listening to the show, you can head to the url. 00:00:53.963 --> 00:00:56.443 It's one of those funny top level domains that sounds like it might 00:00:56.443 --> 00:00:57.843 not be real, but it is actually real. 00:00:58.003 --> 00:01:02.293 And there's a list of dozens dozens of, open API tooling that 00:01:02.293 --> 00:01:03.856 has been, cobbled together from. 00:01:04.346 --> 00:01:07.906 The APIs, you all hate community, including, uh, myself and Phil and 00:01:07.906 --> 00:01:09.266 Matt Trask and a bunch of other people 00:01:09.266 --> 00:01:11.443 uh, You're welcome to submit things you might want to add. 00:01:11.823 --> 00:01:15.726 And, you'll notice, Zulo is our, uh, prime sponsor for the site at the moment. 00:01:15.916 --> 00:01:16.636 Why don't we start there? 00:01:16.636 --> 00:01:19.876 Why don't you give the 32nd pitch for, uh, what you're working on at Zulu, 00:01:19.876 --> 00:01:24.196 what, uh, what the story is and why our API devs might be interested in it. 00:01:24.286 --> 00:01:26.856 josh_twist: 30 seconds is quite a tight time slot. 00:01:26.986 --> 00:01:27.336 Um, 00:01:28.131 --> 00:01:29.411 Track 1: We have, we have more questions, Kevin, 00:01:29.411 --> 00:01:30.051 about it as well. 00:01:30.051 --> 00:01:30.571 So don't worry. 00:01:30.571 --> 00:01:31.691 That's, that's not the whole thing, 00:01:31.776 --> 00:01:34.446 josh_twist: so yeah, I've worked , let's sit podcast over. 00:01:34.736 --> 00:01:38.806 Uh, no, I've worked on, uh, I've worked on in on APIs for a long time. 00:01:38.836 --> 00:01:41.646 I actually founded the Azure API management product at 00:01:41.846 --> 00:01:42.926 Microsoft through an acquisition. 00:01:43.466 --> 00:01:47.406 And I've sort of sat watching that whole industry for, I dunno, 00:01:47.406 --> 00:01:50.486 nearly 10 years, seven years, somewhere between those two numbers. 00:01:51.186 --> 00:01:54.726 And I just felt that none of the products were fun to use. 00:01:55.096 --> 00:01:56.766 Uh, there's like a, it's a red ocean. 00:01:56.766 --> 00:01:59.406 There's lots and lots of API gateways and API management tools, 00:01:59.406 --> 00:02:00.686 but I think they have low N ps. 00:02:00.686 --> 00:02:02.646 They're really not designed for engineers. 00:02:03.376 --> 00:02:06.726 Um, and I just felt there was time for a fresh take on it. 00:02:06.726 --> 00:02:12.846 And so we created Zulo in, uh, July of 21 was when we founded the company. 00:02:12.846 --> 00:02:16.366 And we're, we're trying to bring a really sort of fresh perspective to. 00:02:17.081 --> 00:02:20.421 API management and democratize the technology is kind of our goal. 00:02:20.421 --> 00:02:23.941 So we wanna make it something that every business would consider using. 00:02:23.941 --> 00:02:27.461 You know, API management today is typically used by larger companies. 00:02:27.791 --> 00:02:30.501 Um, and I think it's something startups should use. 00:02:30.501 --> 00:02:31.421 Like, don't spend time on this. 00:02:31.421 --> 00:02:35.621 We can do it faster, better, more secure, uh, and cheaper than if 00:02:35.621 --> 00:02:37.141 you build this stuff yourself. 00:02:37.281 --> 00:02:41.661 And yeah, we're gonna do that by making it easy, making it affordable, making it fun. 00:02:41.836 --> 00:02:42.036 Track 1: fun. 00:02:42.516 --> 00:02:43.006 Nice. 00:02:43.066 --> 00:02:47.166 You said a bunch of stuff in there and I dunno what NPSs is and a bunch of those 00:02:47.166 --> 00:02:50.486 other things, but first we have to ask the question, what is an APA gateway? 00:02:51.636 --> 00:02:52.506 josh_twist: Oh, is that to me, 00:02:52.596 --> 00:02:52.876 Track 1: to me? 00:02:52.916 --> 00:02:53.406 Yeah. 00:02:53.636 --> 00:02:54.346 josh_twist: oh God. 00:02:54.346 --> 00:02:54.666 Wow. 00:02:54.666 --> 00:02:56.506 I feel like I'm being tested now. 00:02:56.506 --> 00:02:57.346 Well, it's a gateway. 00:02:57.346 --> 00:02:59.386 And what's the difference between API management is like 00:02:59.386 --> 00:03:01.546 a constant sort of, uh, debate. 00:03:01.596 --> 00:03:06.066 So, um, you know, a gateway at, to simple level in my mind is, is, is sort of a 00:03:06.066 --> 00:03:12.306 layer, an architectural layer you put in front of your, your APIs that typically 00:03:12.306 --> 00:03:19.426 take care of some sort of common, um, uh, common concerns that, that, that you need 00:03:19.426 --> 00:03:20.946 when you're, when you're shipping APIs. 00:03:20.946 --> 00:03:26.946 So authentication, um, security, uh, protection, like rate limiting, 00:03:27.716 --> 00:03:30.036 um, Uh, et cetera, et cetera. 00:03:30.096 --> 00:03:32.596 And so, you know, there's lots of gateways in the market actually, 00:03:32.596 --> 00:03:34.276 that that market is really enormous. 00:03:34.326 --> 00:03:39.556 Uh, uh, you considered engine X and um, uh, all of the platforms that 00:03:39.556 --> 00:03:41.796 are forked Engine X, um, that exist. 00:03:42.286 --> 00:03:45.836 Um, and then you've got API management, which I think is, is, is API gateway 00:03:45.836 --> 00:03:49.196 plus plus that takes, that looks after additional concerns and 00:03:49.196 --> 00:03:53.716 really tries to give you a holistic way of managing a lot of APIs. 00:03:54.206 --> 00:03:58.156 In our case, we also try and make it easier for people to ship APIs. 00:03:58.156 --> 00:04:00.996 So, so one of the things we say, actually, both Mike and I worked at 00:04:00.996 --> 00:04:05.316 Stripe for a while, is that we helped startups ship, uh, Stripe Quality api. 00:04:06.441 --> 00:04:07.211 Very quickly. 00:04:07.431 --> 00:04:10.211 And to do that, we take care of your developer documentation. 00:04:10.261 --> 00:04:13.611 We call it the, the three pillars actually of, of sort of shipping an api. 00:04:13.611 --> 00:04:16.091 You need protection, you need authentication, and 00:04:16.091 --> 00:04:17.171 you need documentation. 00:04:17.171 --> 00:04:20.211 Like that's the bare minimum that you want when shipping an api. 00:04:20.211 --> 00:04:22.851 So protection means things like rate limiting and funny, 00:04:22.851 --> 00:04:24.331 like this happens all the time. 00:04:24.331 --> 00:04:27.931 And I talk to customers, they're like, I, some half of people say I don't need rate 00:04:27.931 --> 00:04:32.291 limiting cuz I'm not gonna get attacked by, uh, anonymous or this hacker gang. 00:04:32.291 --> 00:04:32.451 And. 00:04:32.736 --> 00:04:35.666 It's not the hackers that are gonna get you, it's your customer that's gonna 00:04:35.666 --> 00:04:37.346 write a bad fall loop and take you down. 00:04:37.346 --> 00:04:40.146 And then the other half of customers are like, yeah, this happened to me yesterday. 00:04:40.146 --> 00:04:44.416 useEffect in react is probably the ultimate culprit for taking APIs down 00:04:44.486 --> 00:04:46.656 that don't have rate limiting in place. 00:04:47.146 --> 00:04:50.336 Um, so protection is, is things like rate limiting and quotas. 00:04:50.666 --> 00:04:53.336 Uh, documentations fairly self-explanatory I think. 00:04:53.336 --> 00:04:55.736 And then authentication is, you know, what's your approach to orth? 00:04:55.736 --> 00:04:56.696 Are you gonna use Jot? 00:04:56.756 --> 00:04:58.296 Are you gonna say API keys? 00:04:58.296 --> 00:04:59.936 I have strong opinions on that as well. 00:05:00.036 --> 00:05:02.816 And we make those, you know, just drag in a policy or drop at your 00:05:02.816 --> 00:05:05.096 ship you'd done and you can get on focusing on your business logic. 00:05:05.346 --> 00:05:08.136 Um, so yeah, A quick take on API management, API gateway, 00:05:08.616 --> 00:05:09.106 Track 1: Nice. 00:05:09.106 --> 00:05:11.306 We don't like strong opinions on, on this podcast. 00:05:11.556 --> 00:05:14.186 Uh, we like to be fair and balanced at all the things. 00:05:14.556 --> 00:05:16.066 Um, that's not true. 00:05:16.216 --> 00:05:17.186 That's pretty cool. 00:05:17.186 --> 00:05:20.386 And so what, what sort of, um, users are you going for? 00:05:20.386 --> 00:05:23.106 Right, because there's, there's a whole bunch of a API I Gateways and 00:05:23.106 --> 00:05:24.226 a p a management tools out there. 00:05:24.226 --> 00:05:27.586 There's, there's all like the Enterprisey A and all of that. 00:05:27.586 --> 00:05:31.066 Um, there's, uh, every one of the cloud solutions, like a Azure has one. 00:05:31.156 --> 00:05:33.866 Um, AWS has two for reasons. 00:05:34.236 --> 00:05:36.146 Um, there's, there's, there's loads of 'em. 00:05:36.146 --> 00:05:39.986 Um, there's uh, tyke, there's Kong, there's little JavaScript based ones. 00:05:39.986 --> 00:05:42.786 Like what, what separates yours from all of them? 00:05:42.786 --> 00:05:43.866 Is it different personas? 00:05:43.866 --> 00:05:44.626 It different functionality? 00:05:45.901 --> 00:05:46.971 josh_twist: No, I don't. 00:05:47.411 --> 00:05:49.611 Interestingly, we've, we, we've approached this a little bit 00:05:49.611 --> 00:05:51.051 unusually in terms of persona. 00:05:51.051 --> 00:05:54.171 I th I think there's definitely differentiators that I could go into. 00:05:54.421 --> 00:05:57.851 Um, but actually one of the things when we, you know, we're a newish company 00:05:57.851 --> 00:06:00.731 about year, year and a half coming, uh, coming approaching two years, 00:06:01.391 --> 00:06:04.891 one of the things I was keen to do, I mentioned democratizing API gateways. 00:06:05.181 --> 00:06:09.651 Um, I really wanted to build a product that would span the needs of 00:06:09.651 --> 00:06:11.331 a large organization and a small one. 00:06:11.711 --> 00:06:17.171 And so one of the hypotheses we set out to prove or disprove, uh, initially 00:06:17.171 --> 00:06:19.611 is, can you, does such a product exist? 00:06:19.611 --> 00:06:20.371 Can you do that? 00:06:21.046 --> 00:06:24.666 And, um, my belief was you can, because actually the, the 00:06:24.666 --> 00:06:25.826 concerns are roughly the same. 00:06:25.826 --> 00:06:28.506 It's just the experience that matters more to that low end. 00:06:29.076 --> 00:06:31.346 So we, you know, I feel like we've done that. 00:06:31.346 --> 00:06:35.466 I've got, uh, a good number of tiny customers that have like two 00:06:35.666 --> 00:06:38.226 employees and they just wanna ship an API quickly and they're delighted 00:06:38.226 --> 00:06:42.706 that they have this great, um, uh, they have this great experience that 00:06:42.706 --> 00:06:43.906 they didn't have to work so hard on. 00:06:44.046 --> 00:06:50.386 And I have, um, uh, customers with 5,000 employees, um, large contracts that we're 00:06:50.586 --> 00:06:55.266 considering, I won't name any names, but you've already said them, um, in an rfp. 00:06:55.266 --> 00:06:56.706 And we went through a formal RFP process. 00:06:56.726 --> 00:06:59.506 And so what's really exciting to me is we've kind of, I feel like we've 00:06:59.506 --> 00:07:02.586 proven that hypothesis recently that a product can do both of those. 00:07:02.586 --> 00:07:06.306 You can build a product that's easy to use and that's why these big 00:07:06.306 --> 00:07:08.026 companies are choosing us is because. 00:07:08.506 --> 00:07:11.586 They don't need to be sent on a training course for a week to use sulo, but it 00:07:11.586 --> 00:07:15.226 can do pretty much everything the, the bigger, more mature products can do. 00:07:15.226 --> 00:07:18.306 And it just fits into their, their life cycle better fits into 00:07:18.306 --> 00:07:20.106 their, uh, developer workflow. 00:07:20.106 --> 00:07:21.746 That's a, been a massive focus for us. 00:07:23.246 --> 00:07:24.216 mike_bifulco: Yeah, it's interesting. 00:07:24.216 --> 00:07:27.256 It sounds like it fits sort of the classification of products that like 00:07:27.256 --> 00:07:31.216 enables a lot of superpowers without, uh, having to spin up an entire team 00:07:31.216 --> 00:07:36.336 of, of wizards or experts or whatever to go and, uh, figure out how to, uh, you 00:07:36.336 --> 00:07:39.136 know, go around all the edge cases of rate limiting and all of the things that, 00:07:39.136 --> 00:07:41.656 uh, your team is no doubt an expert on. 00:07:41.946 --> 00:07:44.776 Um, I, I tend to think that it's a pretty good hallmark too of a product 00:07:44.776 --> 00:07:47.856 that's worth looking at when it works for both the small and large teams. 00:07:48.226 --> 00:07:50.936 Uh, especially because that means that someone at a larger company 00:07:50.936 --> 00:07:55.456 can grow their, you know, their little, uh, niche, uh, api, um, 00:07:55.456 --> 00:07:58.056 from, from nothing with a couple of people to something pretty massive. 00:07:58.206 --> 00:07:59.866 josh_twist: The a hundred percent. 00:07:59.866 --> 00:08:01.186 And the, the other thing actually just from. 00:08:01.621 --> 00:08:03.861 Like a business perspective in my mind. 00:08:03.861 --> 00:08:05.981 You know, I think, I think one of the businesses that's done 00:08:05.981 --> 00:08:07.141 this very well is OTH zero. 00:08:07.991 --> 00:08:11.901 Um, and they built a product that works great for large companies, they have 00:08:11.901 --> 00:08:15.301 massive customers, but pretty much every startup I talk to uses them. 00:08:15.721 --> 00:08:18.381 And that was actually part of their go-to-market strategy is, you know, 00:08:18.381 --> 00:08:21.341 people used Orth Zero on their side project and their hobby project 00:08:21.471 --> 00:08:23.501 or, but they also worked at Big Co. 00:08:23.501 --> 00:08:26.821 And so when the time came that, hey, we need this identity solution. 00:08:27.591 --> 00:08:30.901 Um, you know, and very much I hope that's what what I hope happens with Zulo. 00:08:30.901 --> 00:08:32.941 We have lots of hobbyists building things. 00:08:32.941 --> 00:08:36.061 We did, we did some stuff with Superb Base recently as a backend. 00:08:36.061 --> 00:08:39.341 And if you want to go API first with a super base backend, you know, Zulo 00:08:39.341 --> 00:08:40.621 is a pretty easy way of doing that. 00:08:41.191 --> 00:08:43.901 Um, very low lift, which is great for that audience cuz 00:08:43.901 --> 00:08:44.741 they don't have a ton of time. 00:08:45.321 --> 00:08:48.381 And you know, the hope is that they'll fall in love with the product 00:08:48.401 --> 00:08:52.021 and go and sell it at their big company they work at during the week. 00:08:54.041 --> 00:08:54.531 mike_bifulco: Sure. 00:08:54.531 --> 00:08:54.971 Yeah. 00:08:55.041 --> 00:08:57.531 I was, uh, diving in and looking at your docs. 00:08:57.741 --> 00:09:01.011 Uh, I guess as I was preparing for the show here, and one of the things that 00:09:01.011 --> 00:09:04.811 stood out to me as interesting is, um, I think there's a section in documentation 00:09:04.811 --> 00:09:07.971 that's something like, um, get started or quickstart or something like that. 00:09:08.341 --> 00:09:11.451 Uh, and that there were a couple of key use cases that fell into that 00:09:11.451 --> 00:09:15.331 quickstar category that really made it feel like, um, if you're looking 00:09:15.331 --> 00:09:19.291 for these things, the solution is, you know, dead simple right in front of you. 00:09:19.781 --> 00:09:23.411 Um, and the, the two that I recall off the top of my head are documentation 00:09:23.411 --> 00:09:26.611 and rate limiting as, as, or, uh, you know, just general gateway 00:09:26.611 --> 00:09:27.971 features as a, as a quick start. 00:09:28.381 --> 00:09:29.251 Uh, and like that's. 00:09:29.656 --> 00:09:33.016 , that's a, a really simple way to evaluate the product and, uh, 00:09:33.016 --> 00:09:34.496 whether or not it fits your use case. 00:09:34.626 --> 00:09:39.016 Um, and that meshes well, uh, with the pricing tiers that you have as well. 00:09:39.016 --> 00:09:42.656 So if this is me putting on my, you know, uh, startup founder hat, I guess too, 00:09:42.656 --> 00:09:45.736 but that's a really interesting way to like, just let someone get in and use 00:09:45.736 --> 00:09:48.816 the thing and then go sell it to their organization as opposed to having to 00:09:48.816 --> 00:09:50.376 deal with the sales team on your side. 00:09:50.436 --> 00:09:54.016 Are you finding that that's a, that's a way that people, um, really 00:09:54.016 --> 00:09:55.296 do sort of join and get started. 00:09:55.296 --> 00:09:57.776 Like you've left the right breadcrumbs for people to try out Zu. 00:09:58.001 --> 00:10:02.161 josh_twist: Yeah, the smaller folks for sure, um, they tend to come in, try 00:10:02.161 --> 00:10:06.561 the free product, and then, you know, uh, we see them in the Discord chat 00:10:06.621 --> 00:10:09.001 and end up becoming paying customers. 00:10:09.371 --> 00:10:14.461 Um, the larger customers, we've, there's actually a bit of a, uh, I 00:10:14.461 --> 00:10:16.661 don't know how relevant this is to you, to the podcast, but I'll share 00:10:16.661 --> 00:10:19.501 it anyway, but there's a bit of a, the, it's called product led growth. 00:10:19.501 --> 00:10:22.861 This idea what, what, um, if you're familiar with it, what, what ZE did 00:10:22.861 --> 00:10:25.821 a great job of, and it's actually become, there's a bit of a backlash 00:10:25.821 --> 00:10:29.061 against it in the startup world today, that it's not the be all and end all. 00:10:29.521 --> 00:10:32.221 And I think we see it as like, you actually need both streams. 00:10:32.221 --> 00:10:35.621 Like our larger customers at the moment, they haven't come in that route. 00:10:35.621 --> 00:10:37.421 They don't really sign up themselves. 00:10:37.421 --> 00:10:40.301 We get sent a formal, they hear about us, they're excited about 00:10:40.301 --> 00:10:44.341 it, they see the demo, and that's usually when they suddenly get 00:10:44.341 --> 00:10:45.621 very interested and are willing. 00:10:46.511 --> 00:10:50.871 You know, to be clear for a large company to take a bet on zulo, it takes 00:10:50.871 --> 00:10:52.311 someone risking some personal capital. 00:10:52.381 --> 00:10:55.631 It's like, you know, they're saying you don't get fired for choosing b m. 00:10:55.631 --> 00:10:59.071 It's like, just pick Apogee or Congo, one of the big names, you know, it's easier. 00:10:59.371 --> 00:11:02.591 But once they see what they can enable their teams to do, and their teams 00:11:02.591 --> 00:11:04.871 will actually like using it, they're, they're willing to fight for Zulo. 00:11:04.871 --> 00:11:10.351 But that's a more formal, sort of sales led process, um, for those folks. 00:11:10.381 --> 00:11:11.631 I hope it switches. 00:11:11.631 --> 00:11:14.151 You know, I love it when people come in and stick a credit card in and 00:11:14.151 --> 00:11:16.231 they're just away, uh, at the races. 00:11:16.371 --> 00:11:21.471 But we definitely see both channels being important, um, uh, important for 00:11:21.471 --> 00:11:25.281 us, but we're very passionate about, I, I think about building a product 00:11:25.281 --> 00:11:26.921 like this, like building a video game. 00:11:26.941 --> 00:11:29.641 And I think, um, someone did a great article on this actually. 00:11:29.641 --> 00:11:31.041 I'll, I'll add it to your show notes. 00:11:31.531 --> 00:11:36.401 Um, when I dig it out, um, actually I got it from, Uh, uh, a memo 00:11:36.491 --> 00:11:38.201 in Side Stripe from Patrick. 00:11:38.611 --> 00:11:43.241 Um, and, uh, and it talks about like the best products are like video games 00:11:43.241 --> 00:11:46.201 in terms of, they start very easy, you know, when you, when you start Mario 00:11:46.201 --> 00:11:48.921 level one, you know, you just gotta jump around a bit and you're gonna finish. 00:11:49.141 --> 00:11:53.161 But there's a way and a ramp to like use all the power of a product. 00:11:53.161 --> 00:11:56.081 And it's like your face of bows are on the, the last level, 00:11:56.081 --> 00:11:57.481 on the, the, the bad guy. 00:11:58.101 --> 00:12:01.241 But, so, uh, products in this market, I find it feels like you're just 00:12:01.241 --> 00:12:03.041 facing Bowser from the get-go, right? 00:12:03.041 --> 00:12:05.601 That's your, like , you're literally on the last level. 00:12:05.991 --> 00:12:07.601 It's really hard to get started. 00:12:07.601 --> 00:12:11.121 And so we, we spend a lot of time and attention is how do we make the, a really 00:12:11.121 --> 00:12:12.641 nice sort of glide slope to the product. 00:12:12.641 --> 00:12:17.081 You come in, you've got API key management set up, it's tied to a 00:12:17.081 --> 00:12:21.041 project, but then as things get more complex and you're, you're starting to 00:12:21.041 --> 00:12:24.121 wanna do some wild stuff, then we, we give you all the tools that you can, 00:12:24.121 --> 00:12:25.401 you can do whatever you need to do. 00:12:25.401 --> 00:12:27.041 So that's a thing we think about a lot. 00:12:28.881 --> 00:12:29.371 mike_bifulco: Yeah. 00:12:29.421 --> 00:12:34.091 Uh, that's, um, one of those things that I think, um, people using your products 00:12:34.091 --> 00:12:35.611 too won't realize it's happening, right? 00:12:35.611 --> 00:12:37.691 But they'll, they'll have become experts and kind of grown this 00:12:37.691 --> 00:12:41.011 understanding and attachment, uh, to the tools that they're using. 00:12:41.421 --> 00:12:44.571 Um, and in particular, if that feels familiar, like that journey is 00:12:44.571 --> 00:12:47.291 something that feels like they've felt with products that they already love. 00:12:47.291 --> 00:12:50.131 You know, like, oh, this is just like when I started with super base, 00:12:50.131 --> 00:12:51.331 for example, or whatever, right? 00:12:51.331 --> 00:12:54.851 You feel like you're, uh, hopping from lilypad to lilypad in a way that, 00:12:54.901 --> 00:12:56.971 um, is familiar and generally good. 00:12:56.971 --> 00:13:00.051 You, you get the network effect of those associations too. 00:13:00.181 --> 00:13:00.601 josh_twist: Yep. 00:13:00.891 --> 00:13:04.061 Track 1: Yeah, I mean that's something that I quite liked about the way that 00:13:04.061 --> 00:13:05.381 things ended up going at stoplight. 00:13:05.391 --> 00:13:10.716 Um, that was, Whether you see it as like a skeezy marketing tactic or whether 00:13:10.716 --> 00:13:13.796 you see it as um, kinda like that product led stuff you're talking about. 00:13:13.796 --> 00:13:17.596 Like we released a bunch of open source tools, um, and, and loads 00:13:17.596 --> 00:13:20.476 of people were used to working just purely with those open source tools. 00:13:20.476 --> 00:13:23.516 Like people love spectral and they'll just use spectral all the time and 00:13:23.516 --> 00:13:26.436 it's little c l i thing, and then maybe they'll use it in the VS code thing. 00:13:26.436 --> 00:13:29.396 But you get used to using this stuff from stoplight and then. 00:13:29.956 --> 00:13:34.836 , you're like, actually I'm, I'm fed up with editing open API via Yammel, so I'm gonna 00:13:34.836 --> 00:13:37.796 go use their studio, but I'll download the desktop one and it's totally free. 00:13:37.806 --> 00:13:40.596 So these hobbyists and these individuals, and maybe you're working 00:13:40.596 --> 00:13:43.996 at a company using that stoplight stuff without the company signing off 00:13:43.996 --> 00:13:45.196 on anything cuz you didn't need to. 00:13:45.196 --> 00:13:48.596 It's just an app on my computer and then all of a sudden someone's like, ah man, 00:13:48.596 --> 00:13:50.836 we need a editor that everyone can use. 00:13:50.836 --> 00:13:54.156 And there's like five people at that company going stoplight, I already use it. 00:13:54.156 --> 00:13:54.796 We're already in there. 00:13:55.166 --> 00:14:00.076 Um, so kind of having, it's just freemium, I guess, but having that freemium model. 00:14:00.441 --> 00:14:02.361 Where you can get loads done. 00:14:02.851 --> 00:14:07.601 Um, and, and not try and like kneecap people with, uh, all these 00:14:07.601 --> 00:14:11.081 useful, critical features are gonna be hidden behind a table you can 00:14:11.081 --> 00:14:14.721 get so far but you can't publish or something, you know, crap like that. 00:14:14.721 --> 00:14:18.441 Giving them an actual genuine experience but then just saying, oh, if you want 00:14:18.441 --> 00:14:24.041 these complicated, confusing, um, like shared design libraries or shared style 00:14:24.041 --> 00:14:27.161 guides and things that involve our servers doing loads of work, I gotta 00:14:27.161 --> 00:14:29.721 charge you some money for that cuz the server has gotta do loads of work. 00:14:29.781 --> 00:14:31.841 And I, I think that's just a nice way of going about it. 00:14:31.841 --> 00:14:35.721 Just like, yeah, genuine freemium stuff to get your foot in the door as well. 00:14:35.721 --> 00:14:37.001 It's like a win-win for everyone 00:14:37.271 --> 00:14:37.761 josh_twist: Yeah. 00:14:37.991 --> 00:14:39.921 Help people solve real problems as well. 00:14:39.921 --> 00:14:42.041 And we, well also actually, the, the premium tastes great for us. 00:14:42.041 --> 00:14:44.641 Like we get a lot of good feedback from people who use our free product, 00:14:44.641 --> 00:14:48.281 and they're probably not gonna become paying customers anytime soon. 00:14:48.281 --> 00:14:50.401 But they've been some of our best customers in terms of helping 00:14:50.401 --> 00:14:51.641 us build a great experience. 00:14:51.661 --> 00:14:57.201 You know, these folks who are doing this, not for their job, but for, for fun or 00:14:57.201 --> 00:15:01.481 for their hobby or their side gig, they're trying to start, you know, um, they're 00:15:01.481 --> 00:15:02.761 doing it from a real place of passion. 00:15:02.761 --> 00:15:05.361 And so their, their feedback's especially interesting to us. 00:15:06.666 --> 00:15:07.556 Track 1: Tell us more. 00:15:07.646 --> 00:15:09.996 So you're talking about a p management, we've mentioned that 00:15:09.996 --> 00:15:11.676 gateway is kind of one aspect of it. 00:15:11.846 --> 00:15:15.396 Um, but a p management is a huge nebulous topic. 00:15:15.396 --> 00:15:18.476 There's a million different parts of the life cycle that you might be managing. 00:15:19.006 --> 00:15:23.116 Um, and actually another stoplight mention, they're 00:15:23.116 --> 00:15:23.836 not sponsoring us anymore. 00:15:23.836 --> 00:15:24.676 I don't work there anymore. 00:15:24.676 --> 00:15:26.516 At some point I'll shut up about stoplight. 00:15:26.806 --> 00:15:31.716 Um, but , um, Jason Harmon, the cto, wrote his really good blog post for, um, 00:15:31.716 --> 00:15:33.436 is it a blog post if it's for Forbes? 00:15:33.436 --> 00:15:35.516 I don't know, whatever he wrote for Forbes. 00:15:35.726 --> 00:15:40.356 Um, talking about how it's basically impossible to cover every single 00:15:40.356 --> 00:15:41.956 aspect of the API lifecycle. 00:15:42.906 --> 00:15:43.026 Properly. 00:15:43.026 --> 00:15:45.946 There's a lot of companies pretending that they do, but they 00:15:46.066 --> 00:15:51.266 don't because you've got, um, especially his design, there's a api. 00:15:51.266 --> 00:15:56.746 Design management has, has been separated out as its own kind of, um, vertical. 00:15:57.006 --> 00:16:01.346 But you've got kind of the designing, um, which you kind of do, cause you've 00:16:01.346 --> 00:16:06.346 got an editor, you've got mocking, you've got docs, you've got testing, kinda, 00:16:06.346 --> 00:16:08.906 you were talking about some contract testing on a chat the other day, right? 00:16:08.956 --> 00:16:12.346 There's um, there's the whole like developer portal getting 00:16:12.346 --> 00:16:14.866 new API keys, which hooks in with the actual production stuff. 00:16:14.866 --> 00:16:18.856 Like what parts of the life cycle are you going for and what are you not going for? 00:16:18.966 --> 00:16:20.776 I know you're just trying to do it all like a madman, 00:16:21.421 --> 00:16:21.771 josh_twist: No. 00:16:21.771 --> 00:16:23.411 Uh, we're definitely not, not yet. 00:16:23.411 --> 00:16:27.131 I mean, you know, I think maybe there's a world where we continue to sort of 00:16:27.131 --> 00:16:32.331 eat up adjacencies, but our focus, um, you know, we do have a designer, but 00:16:32.331 --> 00:16:37.971 I don't think we're trying to become an alternative to stoplight or to, um, 00:16:38.431 --> 00:16:42.251 you know, postman, I think as, as sort of has some good tools here as well. 00:16:42.901 --> 00:16:47.011 Um, that's not our intention with the designer, the designers though really, 00:16:47.491 --> 00:16:50.931 again, to give you that sort of very, very easy onboarding experience. 00:16:50.931 --> 00:16:53.811 That's, that's, you know, we're, we're not suggesting anyone tries to design 00:16:53.811 --> 00:16:55.291 an open API document in our designer. 00:16:56.171 --> 00:16:57.811 Don't do that way, I mean, it just won't work. 00:16:58.341 --> 00:17:01.251 Um, but if you're coming in and you just wanna get started, it 00:17:01.251 --> 00:17:04.411 kind of gives you this very gradual glide slope to being successful. 00:17:04.411 --> 00:17:06.771 But then if you look, when you're designing whatever you're 00:17:06.771 --> 00:17:09.851 designing, it's just generating a text file in the background, right? 00:17:10.421 --> 00:17:13.451 Um, and in that you can do a lot more than our design could do. 00:17:13.451 --> 00:17:15.251 So we're not trying to own API design. 00:17:15.251 --> 00:17:19.851 I don't think at this point we, it's hard to say exactly where the 00:17:19.851 --> 00:17:22.891 stages are, where they end, uh, where they begin and where they end. 00:17:23.121 --> 00:17:27.291 I think one of the, first of all, we wanna make you it easy to have a, like a 00:17:27.291 --> 00:17:29.971 great runtime like running and operating. 00:17:30.141 --> 00:17:31.691 Uh, an API needs to be great. 00:17:31.691 --> 00:17:36.531 So the fact that you're protected, um, the fact that, uh, you have analytics 00:17:36.631 --> 00:17:39.331 and understand what's going on, and, you know, we have integrations 00:17:39.331 --> 00:17:40.891 with like Datadog for, for logging. 00:17:40.941 --> 00:17:44.891 So sort of operations is, um, is covered. 00:17:45.551 --> 00:17:49.001 That's the, that part is the real focus for us at this point. 00:17:49.001 --> 00:17:53.321 And the reason we have tests is really just in support of 00:17:53.321 --> 00:17:54.521 getting people to that place. 00:17:54.571 --> 00:17:58.001 So one of the biggest things we've spent time on is, is what 00:17:58.001 --> 00:17:59.961 is the deployment story for Zulo? 00:18:00.291 --> 00:18:02.801 So, I mean, you mentioned great open source companies, actually, 00:18:02.801 --> 00:18:06.321 I think like Versace is a company we admire, uh, tremendously. 00:18:06.891 --> 00:18:10.881 Um, and you know, they had Op Xjs is open source and then the, the paid products is, 00:18:10.881 --> 00:18:12.561 is the sort of segue I'm going for there. 00:18:12.891 --> 00:18:15.601 Um, they also, along with Netlify, have this great GI ops 00:18:15.601 --> 00:18:17.201 model where everything's in. 00:18:18.256 --> 00:18:21.726 In GitHub and you, um, you push a commit and then it'll 00:18:21.726 --> 00:18:23.566 deploy, uh, for each branch. 00:18:23.796 --> 00:18:26.166 Well, we have exactly the same behavior. 00:18:26.376 --> 00:18:29.046 So, uh, we make it crazy, easy to deploy. 00:18:29.046 --> 00:18:31.326 And part of that is being able to test easily. 00:18:31.326 --> 00:18:32.846 So really that's why we built the testing. 00:18:33.096 --> 00:18:36.086 We don't think of ourselves as like the ultimate API testing platform. 00:18:36.086 --> 00:18:36.686 Not at all. 00:18:37.296 --> 00:18:40.766 Um, rather, we wanna make sure that when you're running and operating these 00:18:40.766 --> 00:18:45.166 tier zero mission critical APIs, as they are for most of our companies, that 00:18:45.166 --> 00:18:46.486 you're not gonna deploy something bad. 00:18:46.486 --> 00:18:49.766 So we want, we want to help you to help yourself effectively. 00:18:49.936 --> 00:18:52.206 So that's why we have things like the, the testing. 00:18:52.716 --> 00:18:55.966 I am definitely interested in helping teams. 00:18:57.451 --> 00:19:00.441 because there's blurry lines at the edge of that part of just like 00:19:00.441 --> 00:19:02.001 running and operating an api, right. 00:19:02.001 --> 00:19:02.721 And managing it. 00:19:02.731 --> 00:19:08.081 It, there's, there's, there is this idea of, well, how can I put it? 00:19:08.081 --> 00:19:11.281 What my experience of customers using API gateways, like most of 00:19:11.281 --> 00:19:13.761 the, or API management products in the market is that the, the gateway 00:19:13.761 --> 00:19:16.921 lives on like an iron throne in the, in the business, in the enterprise. 00:19:17.151 --> 00:19:20.321 It's guarded by a team of architects dressing like Knight 00:19:20.321 --> 00:19:22.881 outfits as I'm going for the full on Game of Thrones thing here. 00:19:23.291 --> 00:19:26.241 Uh, you know, and no engineer can touch it. 00:19:26.241 --> 00:19:29.201 They probably have to fill in a Google form to make request changes. 00:19:29.201 --> 00:19:33.241 And it's just, it's just BS frankly from like how engineers normally work. 00:19:33.541 --> 00:19:34.801 And so we wanna fix that. 00:19:34.801 --> 00:19:39.046 And so now, Creating a new deployment, creating a new environment in zoo PLO 00:19:39.046 --> 00:19:40.606 tech, 20 seconds and you'll have it live. 00:19:40.606 --> 00:19:44.806 I have a customer paying for 250 concurrent production environments, 00:19:44.826 --> 00:19:47.406 and that's cuz every team gets a preview environment, gets 00:19:47.566 --> 00:19:48.286 multiple preview environments. 00:19:48.286 --> 00:19:50.846 They just wanna throw, create them, play with them, throw them away. 00:19:50.846 --> 00:19:53.286 Every engineer gets to do that where we are. 00:19:53.286 --> 00:19:57.166 Where I am interested in going a little bit further is, so how do we. 00:19:57.801 --> 00:20:00.281 You know, those architects, now they've kinda lost control, right? 00:20:00.281 --> 00:20:02.521 How do we give them governance with a little G? 00:20:02.521 --> 00:20:04.561 And we really wanna do that in automated ways. 00:20:04.571 --> 00:20:08.081 So some of the stuff we're, we're playing with now is the, the 00:20:08.081 --> 00:20:11.561 tests have to pass before you can promote this to the true production 00:20:11.561 --> 00:20:13.801 environment or the true QA environment. 00:20:14.291 --> 00:20:18.721 Um, maybe some lin rules are gonna come into play, like, Hey, you know, 00:20:18.721 --> 00:20:20.121 we have a set of standards here. 00:20:20.741 --> 00:20:25.681 And, um, and it, you can do whatever you want on your, what we call working copy. 00:20:25.681 --> 00:20:28.321 That's like the pri developer's private gateway we give them. 00:20:28.651 --> 00:20:31.641 Um, but if you wanna get that into production or QA or staging or whatever, 00:20:31.671 --> 00:20:33.281 then it's gonna have to pass these rules. 00:20:33.281 --> 00:20:35.881 You're gonna get warnings, and then they're gonna turn into errors. 00:20:36.131 --> 00:20:40.281 So there's blurry lines, but really we're about, you know, operating, 00:20:41.171 --> 00:20:43.801 um, operating a large API at scale. 00:20:46.546 --> 00:20:48.276 Track 1: That's, yeah, that's interesting. 00:20:48.276 --> 00:20:52.196 Cause that's one thing I wanted to ask about is like who, who operates 00:20:52.196 --> 00:20:53.436 it, like who's in charge of it. 00:20:53.436 --> 00:20:53.596 Right. 00:20:53.596 --> 00:20:56.846 Because I've worked at a bunch of companies where, You don't, 00:20:56.846 --> 00:20:59.286 you almost don't even know that the EPA gateway exists. 00:20:59.286 --> 00:21:02.926 It, it's like a, or any of the, you know, I, I throw around gateway 00:21:02.926 --> 00:21:05.606 and management interchangeably sometimes cuz they're pretty close. 00:21:05.606 --> 00:21:08.606 But, um, like they'll, they'll just kind of like sneak it in. 00:21:08.606 --> 00:21:12.366 You, you build whatever Rails app you're building or whatever, and then someone 00:21:12.366 --> 00:21:16.246 will just like slide this layer in, in front and you get rate limiting, which 00:21:16.246 --> 00:21:17.326 you never had to think about Cool. 00:21:17.326 --> 00:21:17.726 Or whatever. 00:21:18.056 --> 00:21:21.606 Um, and you might get a bit of like edge caching or something else, but like, it 00:21:21.606 --> 00:21:25.686 is just kind of this, this like DevOps implementation detail that you, it's 00:21:25.686 --> 00:21:29.846 more like infrastructure, um, but it, it kind of sounds like you are looking 00:21:29.846 --> 00:21:31.206 for other people to get involved. 00:21:31.206 --> 00:21:31.486 Right. 00:21:31.486 --> 00:21:35.406 So the, the developers maybe getting a bit more involved, but like, is 00:21:35.406 --> 00:21:38.166 there any, is there any room for the client side to get involved? 00:21:38.166 --> 00:21:42.046 Because you were showing me, um, the caching feature and 00:21:42.046 --> 00:21:43.486 I can absolutely, I, I bet. 00:21:44.556 --> 00:21:45.626 There's people out there. 00:21:45.626 --> 00:21:49.186 Kind of my frustration with the way that people talk about Graph UL a lot is that, 00:21:49.186 --> 00:21:52.906 that there's, there's lots of people out there that are really upset with bad rest 00:21:53.016 --> 00:21:57.426 APIs that are then building their own kind of API layer in Graph UL building 00:21:57.566 --> 00:22:01.066 bff so that, you know, they're a client team, but they're building a BFF to 00:22:01.066 --> 00:22:03.146 solve ship problems with that shit api. 00:22:03.516 --> 00:22:03.866 Um, 00:22:03.866 --> 00:22:05.026 and I could just kind of 00:22:05.121 --> 00:22:05.681 josh_twist: other 00:22:05.756 --> 00:22:06.306 Track 1: oh, sorry. 00:22:06.306 --> 00:22:08.346 Backend, backend, backend for front end. 00:22:08.391 --> 00:22:08.981 josh_twist: Oh, okay. 00:22:08.981 --> 00:22:09.261 Okay. 00:22:09.261 --> 00:22:09.741 Back in for 00:22:09.796 --> 00:22:13.346 Track 1: So, yeah, like say, say you are building a React app and you've gotta talk 00:22:13.346 --> 00:22:17.266 to like six different APIs that all have completely different, um, authentication. 00:22:17.266 --> 00:22:20.346 I've been in that situation and I was like, I don't think that every client 00:22:20.346 --> 00:22:24.306 should have to build their own BFFs to, to solve all these inconsistencies. 00:22:24.306 --> 00:22:27.626 We could just use an API gateway to remove those inconsistencies and it 00:22:27.626 --> 00:22:28.906 would use the same authentication system. 00:22:29.046 --> 00:22:33.266 But I could imagine that the clients would also have a bit more control if there, if 00:22:33.266 --> 00:22:37.586 there's just this one shared repo that's a bit less freaky to try and configure than 00:22:37.586 --> 00:22:39.386 some like hosted gateway somewhere else. 00:22:39.916 --> 00:22:42.186 Um, then they can add some cash headers. 00:22:42.186 --> 00:22:45.386 Just like, you know, you, you assure me how to add cash headers to my badly 00:22:45.386 --> 00:22:47.706 built API and then my client was quicker. 00:22:48.036 --> 00:22:51.906 Um, is that a use case that you kind of intended or 00:22:52.536 --> 00:22:57.126 josh_twist: Uh, no, I, I guess we hadn't thought much about the, the, the 00:22:57.126 --> 00:22:58.686 client as in the person calling the api. 00:22:58.686 --> 00:22:59.926 You mean, just to be a hundred percent clear. 00:22:59.926 --> 00:23:00.416 Track 1: Yeah. 00:23:00.416 --> 00:23:00.656 Yeah. 00:23:00.656 --> 00:23:01.656 The api, API 00:23:01.766 --> 00:23:02.926 josh_twist: React app or something? 00:23:02.926 --> 00:23:03.846 Yeah, the API consumer. 00:23:04.616 --> 00:23:07.646 Um, no, we wanna give them a great experience, particularly the developer. 00:23:07.646 --> 00:23:08.246 We care about that. 00:23:08.246 --> 00:23:11.406 We care about, we know, we think engineers are cramps people, and so 00:23:11.406 --> 00:23:15.086 we, we want, we wanna build something they're proud of, sort of saying they 00:23:15.086 --> 00:23:17.964 have their name attached to, but we don't think about it much beyond that. 00:23:18.014 --> 00:23:22.164 what'll happen is there's, there's a company, it has, it's, it's 00:23:22.164 --> 00:23:23.324 typically gotten a little bit bigger. 00:23:23.324 --> 00:23:24.924 It's not one of the startups we're working with. 00:23:24.924 --> 00:23:28.844 And now it has like seven teams building microservices and they want those 00:23:29.164 --> 00:23:30.884 teams to run really independently. 00:23:31.064 --> 00:23:36.844 But they also occur as an organization that their API is beautiful, is consistent 00:23:37.144 --> 00:23:39.004 and is ideally one single thing. 00:23:39.004 --> 00:23:41.844 So that react clients aren't calling 12 APIs. 00:23:41.984 --> 00:23:45.564 But that's hard to organize in the sort of, in the setup you just described, Phil, 00:23:45.564 --> 00:23:49.044 because there's this magical gateway, but how do I add new routes to it? 00:23:49.044 --> 00:23:50.444 Like what's the process to do that? 00:23:50.444 --> 00:23:54.364 So if you can, if you can create it, so it's very self-serve 00:23:54.364 --> 00:23:57.764 for the engineers inside those organizations to add new route. 00:23:58.314 --> 00:24:01.964 They can just go and clone the gateway, have their own copy of it that they 00:24:01.964 --> 00:24:05.724 run with, add in a bunch of new routes, and then there is a process 00:24:05.734 --> 00:24:09.844 by which that goes to production that the architects or the, the leadership 00:24:09.844 --> 00:24:11.044 still feel like they can manage. 00:24:11.354 --> 00:24:14.324 Then that, um, then we feel like that's a win-win. 00:24:14.324 --> 00:24:16.404 And that's actually one of the things where, where folks are really 00:24:16.404 --> 00:24:19.644 excited about zpa, it's one of the, the main wins we ways we win deals 00:24:19.644 --> 00:24:20.964 with like medium sized businesses. 00:24:21.834 --> 00:24:22.804 Does that make sense? 00:24:23.064 --> 00:24:24.274 Track 1: Yeah, that makes sense. 00:24:24.724 --> 00:24:28.674 Um, I'd like to ask Giant, uh, never-ending questions that 00:24:28.674 --> 00:24:29.754 are mostly just statements. 00:24:30.824 --> 00:24:33.144 mike_bifulco: So I've definitely found your outreach strategy interesting. 00:24:33.144 --> 00:24:37.184 And it's been cool to see, uh, Zulo showing up at, um, various 00:24:37.184 --> 00:24:40.024 events and bringing , content to conferences and things like that. 00:24:40.634 --> 00:24:44.024 Um, I'd imagine education is a big part of this and, and trying to 00:24:44.024 --> 00:24:47.384 figure out how to, uh, make the call to API developers that this is 00:24:47.384 --> 00:24:48.424 something that they should consider. 00:24:48.954 --> 00:24:52.304 Is there like a segment of the market, a way that you're trying to identify 00:24:52.304 --> 00:24:55.984 sort of, uh, API devs who, who you should be talking to, or devs who 00:24:56.184 --> 00:24:59.384 don't consider themselves API devs who, uh, you know, should be spun 00:24:59.384 --> 00:25:00.464 up on this sort of information? 00:25:00.619 --> 00:25:02.149 josh_twist: I wish I had a better answer to this. 00:25:02.169 --> 00:25:02.909 Not yet. 00:25:02.989 --> 00:25:05.789 We're, we're really kind of exploring that still. 00:25:05.789 --> 00:25:07.389 You know, we're, we're kind of early. 00:25:07.389 --> 00:25:10.389 People are finding us by one means or another. 00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:13.869 Um, some of our sponsorships, like the one we're doing with you 00:25:13.869 --> 00:25:15.509 folks, you know, is, is great. 00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:20.509 Uh, uh, so sort of our sort of just talking startup business for anyone 00:25:20.509 --> 00:25:23.429 trying to build something like this, you know, one of our initial strategies 00:25:23.429 --> 00:25:26.589 was we were just doing cold outreach and hitting people with like emails and 00:25:26.899 --> 00:25:31.629 trying to sense when they might be ripe to be thinking about an API gateway. 00:25:31.929 --> 00:25:34.029 And then, you know, that's hard because. 00:25:35.264 --> 00:25:39.814 Um, if someone's already got Apigee or Cong or something, you are not 00:25:39.814 --> 00:25:41.294 just gonna send 'em an email that's gonna make them, you know what? 00:25:41.294 --> 00:25:41.814 I changed my mind. 00:25:41.814 --> 00:25:44.574 Let's, let's uninstall this thing and let's replace it with Zpl. 00:25:44.574 --> 00:25:46.494 That's just not gonna, you know, that's not gonna happen easily. 00:25:46.904 --> 00:25:49.174 Um, so you've gotta time it where they're already thinking about that. 00:25:49.174 --> 00:25:52.774 And that's like shooting arrows into the woods with a blindfold on at 00:25:52.774 --> 00:25:54.574 night and hoping to hit some prey. 00:25:54.704 --> 00:25:58.414 Um, um, weird analogy for a vegan, but okay. 00:25:59.184 --> 00:26:02.534 . Um, so then we said, maybe a better analogy is actually we, we go and put 00:26:02.534 --> 00:26:05.734 trip wires out, um, around the forest where we think these people are running. 00:26:05.734 --> 00:26:08.534 And so, like, you know, we did, we'd done a bunch of content around 00:26:08.804 --> 00:26:13.374 rate limiting, around sponsoring, uh, spaces where people work. 00:26:13.374 --> 00:26:16.934 Like, uh, we've had a successful sponsorship with, um, have 00:26:16.934 --> 00:26:18.094 you seen Jason Schema? 00:26:18.919 --> 00:26:20.149 Um, by Jack Wooden. 00:26:20.959 --> 00:26:25.469 Um, so yeah, that's a, a really cool online designer if you wanna design 00:26:25.479 --> 00:26:27.389 Jason's schema documents using a tool. 00:26:27.389 --> 00:26:28.229 So we sponsor that. 00:26:28.229 --> 00:26:29.829 We've had a great relationship with them. 00:26:29.959 --> 00:26:32.949 There's another developer portal, an open source developer portal 00:26:32.949 --> 00:26:34.869 called Raddock that we sponsor. 00:26:35.319 --> 00:26:40.349 Um, uh, because again, like people in that area might be starting to think about like 00:26:40.349 --> 00:26:42.109 maturing how they're approaching APIs. 00:26:42.109 --> 00:26:44.749 So they'll, they'll see zulo, the, the sponsorship we've done 00:26:44.749 --> 00:26:46.109 with you folks@openapi.tools. 00:26:46.109 --> 00:26:48.109 That's, that's one of the ways we're trying to reach out to people. 00:26:48.109 --> 00:26:49.749 But I think we're just beginning. 00:26:49.919 --> 00:26:53.589 Um, some of the stuff we've done, um, is creating YouTube content, 00:26:53.959 --> 00:26:55.829 um, for super based developers. 00:26:55.829 --> 00:26:58.749 You know, this idea that if you're working on super base and you suddenly 00:26:58.749 --> 00:27:02.189 going, how do I build an API out of this that's actually feels like an 00:27:02.189 --> 00:27:06.029 api that's like not, not rest over data, which is what you kind of get 00:27:06.029 --> 00:27:10.159 with, um, Postgres, I think they're using, um, I want it to feel custom. 00:27:10.159 --> 00:27:11.919 So all zla can be a very easy gateway. 00:27:11.919 --> 00:27:13.079 On top of that, that's a dot. 00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:16.079 So we made a bunch of content for that, which has gone great for us. 00:27:16.934 --> 00:27:19.604 Um, so we're still, we're still really finding our way of doing it. 00:27:19.604 --> 00:27:21.524 I don't, I won't say we've cracked it yet, but, um, 00:27:21.534 --> 00:27:22.384 mike_bifulco: Yeah, sure. 00:27:22.384 --> 00:27:26.544 I, I feel like you, um, you laid out the, the breadcrumb for me earlier 00:27:26.544 --> 00:27:29.544 that I feel like you should be writing an incendiary blog poster, making a 00:27:29.544 --> 00:27:33.464 YouTube video that has a title, something along the lines of like, use Effect 00:27:33.464 --> 00:27:37.424 is costing you money, uh, and, and go publish that on the web and you'll 00:27:37.424 --> 00:27:37.784 get a billion 00:27:37.924 --> 00:27:39.124 josh_twist: making notes here right now. 00:27:39.644 --> 00:27:40.304 mike_bifulco: for sure. 00:27:40.304 --> 00:27:40.664 Yeah. 00:27:40.894 --> 00:27:41.384 Yeah. 00:27:41.384 --> 00:27:44.024 You can put me on the byline for that one if you want, but I, I like, 00:27:44.024 --> 00:27:46.224 those are the sorts of things that people don't realize, you know? 00:27:46.754 --> 00:27:48.664 Uh, and, but it does give people's attention. 00:27:48.664 --> 00:27:51.784 They know they're having problems with use effect doing, you know, rendering a 00:27:51.784 --> 00:27:53.304 billion times or whatever the case is. 00:27:53.304 --> 00:27:56.264 But, uh, they, they don't often have the solution to that, and that's why 00:27:56.264 --> 00:27:59.344 you find the same four Stack overflow threads that are, you know, as 00:27:59.344 --> 00:28:01.224 condescending as Stack Overflow can be. 00:28:01.554 --> 00:28:04.264 Uh, and, and as unfriendly as you could, you might imagine. 00:28:04.329 --> 00:28:06.179 josh_twist: Yeah, actually a great chance for a plug. 00:28:06.179 --> 00:28:09.179 We're actually trying to hire a developer relations developer advocate right now. 00:28:09.179 --> 00:28:11.739 Our first, a full-time developer advocate would be creating 00:28:11.739 --> 00:28:12.579 lots of content like this. 00:28:12.579 --> 00:28:14.699 So if anyone listening to the podcast is interested, you know, 00:28:14.699 --> 00:28:15.939 where to, you know, where to go. 00:28:15.939 --> 00:28:17.659 Hope you guys don't mind me sneaking that in there. 00:28:18.029 --> 00:28:19.819 Um, we did do one in, oh, sorry. 00:28:19.819 --> 00:28:23.779 One interesting article that again was, was quite popular when we designed our 00:28:24.059 --> 00:28:27.939 api I key, um, service like the, the fact, the fact that you can sort of 00:28:27.939 --> 00:28:29.779 add API I key authentication to an api. 00:28:30.149 --> 00:28:33.299 We did a lot of research, like how do people do this? 00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:37.699 You know, we, even though I worked, they're poured over stripes implementation 00:28:37.699 --> 00:28:40.419 cuz they're still sort of seen as the gold standard, I think of like APIs. 00:28:40.779 --> 00:28:43.299 Actually, I, I'd be curious on what you guys think is the best today. 00:28:43.439 --> 00:28:45.859 You know, we looked at Twilio, we looked at the same group, we looked at 00:28:45.859 --> 00:28:48.259 all these companies, looked at GitHub and we're like, how do they do it? 00:28:48.259 --> 00:28:49.099 What are the rules? 00:28:49.099 --> 00:28:50.259 What are the best practices? 00:28:50.679 --> 00:28:54.099 And so we thought, you know, it'd be, even though it's kind of IP for us 00:28:54.099 --> 00:28:57.339 really in a way that research and that knowledge, we thought, well, let's write 00:28:57.339 --> 00:28:58.539 it up in a really detailed article. 00:28:59.304 --> 00:29:00.964 And share that knowledge with folks. 00:29:00.964 --> 00:29:03.404 It might mean they don't use zoo PLO when they go and build it themselves. 00:29:03.914 --> 00:29:04.604 It's fine. 00:29:04.654 --> 00:29:05.324 Go and do that. 00:29:05.324 --> 00:29:05.604 You know? 00:29:05.604 --> 00:29:10.564 But also people may hopefully, um, see us as someone who's sort of, you know, done 00:29:10.564 --> 00:29:13.844 some thought leadership in this space and, and potentially will come and use us as 00:29:13.844 --> 00:29:16.204 a solution so they don't have to build that stuff and manage it all themselves. 00:29:16.264 --> 00:29:17.204 And that, that went well. 00:29:17.204 --> 00:29:18.604 And we'll keep doing things like that. 00:29:18.604 --> 00:29:22.004 Like the way, one of the things that Unico Zulo is it runs at the edge. 00:29:22.054 --> 00:29:26.284 So it's not, it's not, you know, it's not, um, an engine X or an Envoy Fork. 00:29:26.284 --> 00:29:27.604 This is built from the ground up. 00:29:27.604 --> 00:29:29.524 We had to build this thing from scratch pretty much. 00:29:30.104 --> 00:29:35.444 And, uh, so we run on edge compute like CloudFlare and Fastly and Dino Ploy, if 00:29:35.444 --> 00:29:39.844 you've heard of those folks using sort of, um, JavaScript, um, worker technology. 00:29:40.304 --> 00:29:44.804 And there are some hard, there are some hard lessons for someone if you do that 00:29:44.804 --> 00:29:47.204 for the first time and try and build like, real infrastructure on the edge. 00:29:47.204 --> 00:29:49.364 It's just, it's just different, you know? 00:29:49.424 --> 00:29:52.044 How do you do rate limiting in a consistent way if 00:29:52.044 --> 00:29:53.404 there are 250 data centers? 00:29:54.024 --> 00:29:55.954 Each with a thousand processes in it. 00:29:56.024 --> 00:29:57.434 I mean, how does that work? 00:29:57.434 --> 00:29:57.674 Right? 00:29:57.674 --> 00:30:00.114 So we have spent a lot of time solving that problem. 00:30:00.764 --> 00:30:04.394 Um, and, um, and yeah, we'll be willing to, I just haven't got 00:30:04.394 --> 00:30:05.114 around to writing it up yet. 00:30:05.114 --> 00:30:07.554 We'll be willing to share our learnings though, and hope that like, you know, 00:30:07.554 --> 00:30:10.554 we're seen as like, oh, these guys are real experts at this, so maybe we should 00:30:10.554 --> 00:30:11.994 just use them versus try and roll around 00:30:12.277 --> 00:30:12.437 Track 1: writing. 00:30:12.437 --> 00:30:14.277 Yeah, that's a brilliant segue. 00:30:14.377 --> 00:30:16.407 You, you don't wanna roll your own. 00:30:17.272 --> 00:30:20.182 So you want to use something like an API gateway that will, that will handle 00:30:20.182 --> 00:30:25.332 something like authentication for you, but you have just rolled your own 00:30:26.172 --> 00:30:27.072 josh_twist: I'm caught here. 00:30:27.932 --> 00:30:30.792 . The, the, because it's edge technology, there isn't really 00:30:30.792 --> 00:30:32.072 much we could have built on. 00:30:32.072 --> 00:30:35.592 I mean, we, we probably would've done, I mean, we used a few open source libraries 00:30:35.592 --> 00:30:41.592 that were compatible with workers, but you know, things like N Engine X and Envoy, 00:30:41.592 --> 00:30:43.712 they are designed to run like on native. 00:30:44.907 --> 00:30:48.387 Hardware with access to like file systems and, and you just don't have 00:30:48.387 --> 00:30:49.827 that in this, in this technology. 00:30:49.827 --> 00:30:51.467 You know, there's a bunch of advantages though. 00:30:51.467 --> 00:30:53.187 Um, and so we deliberately made a trade off. 00:30:53.187 --> 00:30:55.307 We said like, what, what does the best gateway in the world look like? 00:30:55.307 --> 00:30:56.707 It's like, well, it runs at the edge, obviously. 00:30:56.757 --> 00:31:02.317 So if you use caching, like, like, uh, Actually the, the cashing trick we did 00:31:02.387 --> 00:31:05.237 Phil, was we were cashing in the edge. 00:31:05.567 --> 00:31:09.717 So when you made your second request, uh, request, when when we did that, 00:31:09.807 --> 00:31:11.037 it was still making a request. 00:31:11.037 --> 00:31:12.077 We didn't set the cash outs. 00:31:12.077 --> 00:31:12.717 We can do that too. 00:31:13.207 --> 00:31:16.077 Um, but in that case it's just, we just kept it there on that worker. 00:31:16.077 --> 00:31:19.637 So if you'd have had two clients, would that two browsers request that 00:31:19.637 --> 00:31:23.757 they'd have both received the cashed version from the edge so that it's 00:31:23.757 --> 00:31:26.877 not just a question of browser cash, we can actually use server caching as 00:31:26.877 --> 00:31:28.277 well, like a bit like a cdn, right? 00:31:28.277 --> 00:31:29.437 Cause that's what the edge is good at. 00:31:29.457 --> 00:31:32.317 And so that means everybody gets a 50 millisecond response time 00:31:32.557 --> 00:31:33.317 wherever they are in the world. 00:31:33.807 --> 00:31:36.957 Um, so there's lots of advantages to building a, a gateway at the edge. 00:31:36.957 --> 00:31:39.517 And that's why we decided to sort of take a risk and, and build our own. 00:31:39.687 --> 00:31:42.277 We would've happily used something else. 00:31:42.277 --> 00:31:44.837 I think if there'd have been something suitable, but we didn't find anything. 00:31:46.302 --> 00:31:49.302 Track 1: something .Yeah, fair enough. 00:31:49.302 --> 00:31:52.422 It's, um, that's just always the, the tough one, I think. 00:31:52.422 --> 00:31:52.662 Yeah. 00:31:52.662 --> 00:31:56.222 Trying to find the balance of like using a few open source libraries to, to, to 00:31:56.337 --> 00:31:59.697 josh_twist: and we do like credit to people like, uh, path to RegX, which is 00:31:59.697 --> 00:32:04.577 the, the open source library, uh, that powers like express JS in node happens 00:32:04.577 --> 00:32:06.577 to be compatible with worker technology. 00:32:06.577 --> 00:32:07.737 So we use that for our routing. 00:32:08.367 --> 00:32:10.217 Nobody wants to write that stuff again. 00:32:10.217 --> 00:32:11.377 That's a really great library. 00:32:12.107 --> 00:32:14.857 Um, although actually I think there's one shipping now is a standard called 00:32:14.877 --> 00:32:16.617 URL patent, which is super interesting. 00:32:16.617 --> 00:32:18.297 So we'll probably move over to that at some point. 00:32:18.767 --> 00:32:23.337 It's actually based on Pat RegX, but it's actually part of the, the, like it's on, 00:32:23.337 --> 00:32:25.857 um, uh, which, who owns the standard? 00:32:25.857 --> 00:32:28.577 I'm not sure, but it's on MDN and I E T F and all that stuff. 00:32:28.577 --> 00:32:30.657 So yeah, it's, it's actually shipping as part of browsers. 00:32:30.918 --> 00:32:34.178 Track 1: And so something else, uh, obviously we're big fans of Open API here. 00:32:34.178 --> 00:32:36.738 I bang on about it all the time, um, for some reason. 00:32:37.318 --> 00:32:41.258 And, uh, you mentioned there's a little bit of open API coming to 00:32:41.328 --> 00:32:41.678 to 00:32:41.878 --> 00:32:42.158 Zulo. 00:32:42.408 --> 00:32:43.288 josh_twist: a backstory actually. 00:32:43.288 --> 00:32:46.248 So I have a sort of a love-hate relationship with Open api cuz when 00:32:46.248 --> 00:32:49.168 it, when I first encountered it was when I was working on API management in 00:32:49.168 --> 00:32:54.768 like 2013, I think it was still called Swagger and it was a burgeoning standard. 00:32:54.768 --> 00:32:55.808 It wasn't very popular. 00:32:55.808 --> 00:33:00.328 And then I went away from the space and I came back to build Zulo, 00:33:00.328 --> 00:33:03.248 having not worked on a specific gateway for a while and still had 00:33:03.248 --> 00:33:04.808 this image in my mind of open api. 00:33:05.628 --> 00:33:12.208 And um, we, we started out, when we built Zulo, we have a routing file, 00:33:12.498 --> 00:33:15.648 um, that's adjacent structure that tells us how to route your request. 00:33:15.648 --> 00:33:17.648 And we initially thought, should we make that open api? 00:33:17.788 --> 00:33:20.728 And we decided not to, you know, we thought we should own the standard. 00:33:20.828 --> 00:33:24.848 And what we do is we build an import for open API so it would 00:33:24.848 --> 00:33:26.728 import the file and convert it into. 00:33:27.958 --> 00:33:28.398 Standard format. 00:33:28.698 --> 00:33:31.918 And what we've just seen is when, when people come into the product, they 00:33:31.918 --> 00:33:33.758 click that import open API button first. 00:33:34.528 --> 00:33:39.518 Um, the, the, since I last spent time in the space, the, the perspective on Open 00:33:39.518 --> 00:33:43.598 API and just how useful it is and how broadly adopt it is has really changed. 00:33:43.698 --> 00:33:46.238 And so we really into embracing that. 00:33:46.238 --> 00:33:49.158 Like we love embracing standards if they're working well, you know, we just 00:33:49.158 --> 00:33:54.038 shipped actually, um, uh, all of the standard error responses from ZULO now 00:33:54.038 --> 00:33:59.918 come as, um, uh, problem details, which is a new it I E T F 7 8 0 7 I think it is. 00:34:00.328 --> 00:34:03.038 Uh, friends of yours I'm sure like Eric Wild and Gang, 00:34:03.038 --> 00:34:04.518 uh, who, who worked on that. 00:34:04.848 --> 00:34:06.478 So we, we shipped that recently. 00:34:06.478 --> 00:34:09.318 Saw all our standards are are problem, but h B. 00:34:10.543 --> 00:34:12.423 and then we're like, how do we lean more into open api? 00:34:12.423 --> 00:34:17.103 Because this is a great community, it's our people and, uh, we think we 00:34:17.103 --> 00:34:18.183 can do something really specialist. 00:34:18.183 --> 00:34:23.503 We're actually moving our routing file to be completely based on open api and 00:34:23.503 --> 00:34:28.783 we're just gonna use vendor extensions to, um, to essentially plug in the things 00:34:28.783 --> 00:34:31.903 that are zulo specific to open api. 00:34:32.043 --> 00:34:33.783 And there's a couple of things we're doing with that as well. 00:34:33.783 --> 00:34:35.903 So one is you can then import. 00:34:35.903 --> 00:34:39.623 So if you have like your public open API doc or your primary, 00:34:40.043 --> 00:34:41.783 you can import that to zulo. 00:34:41.783 --> 00:34:44.783 And what we'll do is we'll take everything that's not Zulo specific and overwrite it. 00:34:45.448 --> 00:34:48.288 and then we'll just keep the zulo specific stuff for you so that you have 00:34:48.398 --> 00:34:50.288 kind of a really seamless workflow. 00:34:50.288 --> 00:34:54.088 You know, I've, I've been told, um, I was actually checking to someone 00:34:54.088 --> 00:34:57.488 from another open API focus company called cusk, which is kind of a 00:34:57.488 --> 00:35:01.568 open source, uh, open API gateway based on Envoy for, for Kubernetes. 00:35:02.068 --> 00:35:07.448 And you know, lots and lots of stories of people trying to write generators to 00:35:07.728 --> 00:35:11.768 generate a format for Kong or ambassador or something based on open a p i. 00:35:12.468 --> 00:35:15.448 And I think you can really change the workflow if you just actually 00:35:15.448 --> 00:35:16.728 make the whole thing native that way. 00:35:16.728 --> 00:35:19.048 So we're pretty close to shipping that, that soon. 00:35:21.418 --> 00:35:24.148 mike_bifulco: Yeah, I think that's, uh, a, a good thing 00:35:24.148 --> 00:35:25.388 to, to see the support coming. 00:35:25.388 --> 00:35:27.988 I think we have found sort of the same thing, right? 00:35:28.228 --> 00:35:31.268 Like our audience, the people that we talk to, uh, generally are coming 00:35:31.268 --> 00:35:34.628 to us from some sort of, uh, search term that looks a whole lot like 00:35:34.628 --> 00:35:36.268 open API plus something, right? 00:35:36.268 --> 00:35:37.788 Like how do I x with open api? 00:35:37.928 --> 00:35:41.748 And I think that's a signal that, uh, there's been a real change in, uh, the 00:35:41.748 --> 00:35:44.708 way those thing, the, the, you know, the developer marketplace has kind 00:35:44.708 --> 00:35:47.188 of followed over the past, gosh, I don't know, maybe six or seven years 00:35:47.188 --> 00:35:48.188 since things have really changed. 00:35:48.998 --> 00:35:52.348 Uh, and we're, we're having less and less to tell people to call it open 00:35:52.348 --> 00:35:54.268 API and not swagger to, to that point. 00:35:54.268 --> 00:35:57.708 Which I think is one of those things that was a bug bear, you know, 00:35:57.708 --> 00:36:00.668 a few years ago and has less and less, um, been an issue for us. 00:36:00.858 --> 00:36:03.028 josh_twist: Yeah, I don't bump into swagger that much now, actually. 00:36:03.028 --> 00:36:05.628 The word, um, I don't know if that's, I'm just hanging around 00:36:05.628 --> 00:36:07.548 with the wrong people I'm hanging around with, with people like you. 00:36:07.598 --> 00:36:12.548 So, so you're all such fans of the, of the platform, but it is awesome and, 00:36:12.548 --> 00:36:15.628 you know, people like Darryl Miller, who I missed narrowly when he worked 00:36:15.628 --> 00:36:20.068 on Azure, came into work on Azure API management, I think super open to, to 00:36:20.068 --> 00:36:23.788 collaborating and, and, you know, gi giving advice, people like Kevin, uh, 00:36:23.788 --> 00:36:27.628 Schwaber, uh, and so on have helped us understand how we can do this better. 00:36:27.678 --> 00:36:28.628 So, yeah, it's cool. 00:36:32.238 --> 00:36:37.578 Track 1: And Darryl, who also is currently, um, maintaining open api.tools. 00:36:37.748 --> 00:36:40.258 Um, cuz we both are a smidge busy. 00:36:40.448 --> 00:36:45.058 It's really funny, it's really funny having, um, people who work for 00:36:45.058 --> 00:36:47.338 some of the tools listed on there. 00:36:47.628 --> 00:36:51.418 Um, because yeah, I mean e even stoplight was saying like, Hey, 00:36:51.418 --> 00:36:52.458 why don't you put us at the top? 00:36:52.458 --> 00:36:53.618 I'm like, no, I'm not doing that. 00:36:54.828 --> 00:36:58.138 there's, there's always, I don't think it's particularly serious, but um, 00:36:58.138 --> 00:37:02.018 yeah, there's, there's always that like, perception of, uh, of being biased. 00:37:02.078 --> 00:37:05.858 And so no, we, we, we have all the tools on there and yeah, it's not, 00:37:05.888 --> 00:37:08.858 it's not suddenly only Microsoft tools listed on that website. 00:37:08.858 --> 00:37:09.098 So 00:37:09.153 --> 00:37:12.303 josh_twist: it is the downside of picking a company with the name Z When you go 00:37:12.303 --> 00:37:15.543 into these catalogs, like we're always the last entry on all of these things. 00:37:15.543 --> 00:37:16.183 And we honored it. 00:37:16.183 --> 00:37:18.983 When I, when I made the poll request to open api.tools, I was like, 00:37:18.983 --> 00:37:19.983 I, I see what they're doing here. 00:37:19.983 --> 00:37:21.663 I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna disrespect that. 00:37:21.843 --> 00:37:23.303 Can I ask you guys a question? 00:37:23.713 --> 00:37:24.383 Is that loud? 00:37:24.513 --> 00:37:24.753 mike_bifulco: away. 00:37:25.138 --> 00:37:25.578 Track 1: Can I 00:37:25.623 --> 00:37:28.143 josh_twist: have you seen, since we're talking about open api, uh, Microsoft, 00:37:28.143 --> 00:37:30.503 I dunno if they just announced it, but I just came across it on a blog 00:37:30.503 --> 00:37:31.343 post, this thing called cattle. 00:37:31.528 --> 00:37:32.008 Track 1: don't think just 00:37:32.368 --> 00:37:33.378 josh_twist: C a d L. 00:37:33.828 --> 00:37:36.458 Um, and it's a new a, oh, I've caught you out. 00:37:36.458 --> 00:37:36.698 Sorry. 00:37:36.698 --> 00:37:37.458 I thought you might have seen 00:37:37.458 --> 00:37:37.538 it. 00:37:37.538 --> 00:37:38.018 I didn't mean 00:37:38.048 --> 00:37:39.492 Track 1: it's Yeah, yeah. 00:37:39.492 --> 00:37:41.172 I've, I haven't looked into it too much. 00:37:41.262 --> 00:37:46.692 Um, isn't that the API design language that Darryl's been talking about yet? 00:37:46.902 --> 00:37:51.172 So we haven't talked about that on here yet, but I think it's a really 00:37:51.332 --> 00:37:55.452 interesting idea because Darryl's basically talking about how, um, 00:37:56.132 --> 00:37:59.212 currently open API is, is being used. 00:37:59.962 --> 00:38:01.972 I call it an API description language. 00:38:01.972 --> 00:38:05.092 That's fairly standard language at this point, although people call it all sorts 00:38:05.092 --> 00:38:10.492 of stuff an a API description and you can, and, and he's saying that it's not very 00:38:10.492 --> 00:38:12.972 useful for designing an API that will. 00:38:13.987 --> 00:38:14.147 right. 00:38:14.147 --> 00:38:17.867 So the way I've, I've said it is you can describe the A API that you would 00:38:17.867 --> 00:38:21.187 like as well as you can describe the A API that you already have. 00:38:21.607 --> 00:38:27.077 But Darryl suggesting that it's a very terse open API is a very terse 00:38:27.077 --> 00:38:30.517 way of describing what you would like and you immediately get bogged down 00:38:30.517 --> 00:38:34.557 with implementation details like paths and headers and the names of query 00:38:34.557 --> 00:38:35.957 strings and, and everything else. 00:38:36.087 --> 00:38:40.237 Whereas you probably want to kind of plan something maybe in a bit more 00:38:40.237 --> 00:38:43.677 of a shorthand, like scratch notes kind of way is the understanding. 00:38:43.677 --> 00:38:44.957 I've not looked into the 00:38:45.282 --> 00:38:48.332 josh_twist: Yeah, no, I mean, we, we played with it just the last 00:38:48.332 --> 00:38:49.692 few days and we're super impressed. 00:38:49.692 --> 00:38:52.172 It's like, it's nice, it's very terse, it's very sort of short. 00:38:52.662 --> 00:38:55.332 Um, and then you can generate an open API document from that. 00:38:55.662 --> 00:38:58.332 Um, so I think it's an exciting development. 00:38:58.332 --> 00:39:01.252 We're, we're not sort of planning on jumping into it too deeply at any point. 00:39:01.342 --> 00:39:05.162 Um, but I think the great things about these is, and the reason why 00:39:05.162 --> 00:39:09.122 we we'd pick Open API is, is there's just so much else going on in that 00:39:09.122 --> 00:39:10.722 ecosystem, you know, from spectral. 00:39:10.932 --> 00:39:13.682 So when we wanna build this lintering, it's like we could just lean on the 00:39:13.682 --> 00:39:17.842 shoulders of, of stand on the shoulders of giants that are, and um, you know, 00:39:17.842 --> 00:39:20.362 all of the things that folks can do with open API that just make it great. 00:39:20.653 --> 00:39:23.743 Track 1: Yeah, you gotta take a look at some of those rule sets I was doing, um, 00:39:24.113 --> 00:39:27.503 in, in between tree planting seasons, I went back to stoplight for a little bit. 00:39:27.503 --> 00:39:31.263 They gave me a bit of extra, extra income cuz uh, yeah, when there's no trees to 00:39:31.263 --> 00:39:32.343 plant, I'm like, wait, what am I doing? 00:39:32.673 --> 00:39:38.063 Um, And um, yeah, they had me build a whole bunch of raw sets and so I, 00:39:38.063 --> 00:39:43.183 one of them was the, uh, spectral OWA set, which is quite a fun one. 00:39:43.183 --> 00:39:47.343 And it just, it tries to take a swing as many of the owas as it possibly can. 00:39:47.753 --> 00:39:51.903 Um, so you could just bake that one in there, like have, have a, do a quick 00:39:51.903 --> 00:39:55.023 check and go, um, that'll get you hacked, mate, you know, just by looking 00:39:55.173 --> 00:39:55.933 josh_twist: No, that sounds great. 00:39:55.933 --> 00:39:59.293 And I'm definitely gonna, uh, uh, uh, I think there was something else you 00:39:59.293 --> 00:40:02.813 mentioned actually the other day when we chatted, um, that I wanna, I want 00:40:02.813 --> 00:40:05.453 to come and knock on your door as we, as we start to work on that problem. 00:40:05.543 --> 00:40:05.893 So, 00:40:06.303 --> 00:40:07.133 uh, but yeah, no. 00:40:08.573 --> 00:40:09.653 Track 1: Mm Oh yeah. 00:40:09.653 --> 00:40:14.373 Things like, um, adding, um, request validation and kind of response 00:40:14.373 --> 00:40:16.493 validation, aka a contract testing. 00:40:17.143 --> 00:40:20.293 Um, yeah, those things, I mean the, there's just so much you can do. 00:40:20.293 --> 00:40:24.013 Once you have open API as your source of truth, you can then do, you know, if, 00:40:24.013 --> 00:40:27.573 even if your tool isn't trying to touch every single vertical in the entirety 00:40:27.573 --> 00:40:31.533 of the APA lifecycle, you can just kind of send people off to the tools that do. 00:40:31.943 --> 00:40:36.693 Um, so it's, it's kind of why I was asking about how the Open API would work. 00:40:36.693 --> 00:40:40.413 I remember talking to, I think it was Kong and I think Tik were quite similar a 00:40:40.413 --> 00:40:44.373 couple of years ago, and they were like, oh yeah, we've added open API support. 00:40:44.373 --> 00:40:47.133 There's this one text box that you can pay something into. 00:40:48.193 --> 00:40:49.573 And I was like, and then what? 00:40:49.573 --> 00:40:50.493 They're like, no, that's it. 00:40:51.583 --> 00:40:56.653 Oh, like So like the idea that you just have this open API in 00:40:56.653 --> 00:40:59.613 one file that's incorrect and that you, you know, at some point you're 00:40:59.613 --> 00:41:00.773 done with it, that's incorrect. 00:41:01.103 --> 00:41:03.613 Um, there, there's all these kind of, uh, data assumptions about it and. 00:41:04.273 --> 00:41:08.513 . So yeah, the fact that you are kind of aware that it's an evolving thing 00:41:08.513 --> 00:41:12.233 over time and can live and get and can be updated with pool requests 00:41:12.233 --> 00:41:16.273 and can, can integrate and hand off with, with other parts and other tools 00:41:16.273 --> 00:41:17.713 to do different bits of it better. 00:41:17.713 --> 00:41:20.713 Like that's the beauty of using a standard whether you like it or not. 00:41:20.713 --> 00:41:20.903 josh_twist: Phil. 00:41:20.903 --> 00:41:24.343 Yeah, the one, one other thing we, we really love about it is if, if 00:41:24.343 --> 00:41:27.463 we go open API first, cuz actually there's a couple of, you know, 00:41:27.463 --> 00:41:30.143 there's a couple of customers using a zoo aren't particularly open api. 00:41:30.143 --> 00:41:31.663 They're just trying to get something out the door. 00:41:32.243 --> 00:41:34.463 But, so they've gone in and they've used our route designer, 00:41:34.463 --> 00:41:37.783 you know, that you, you mentioned earlier, Now in the background that 00:41:37.783 --> 00:41:39.143 is generating an open API file. 00:41:39.143 --> 00:41:39.983 Now it's not very fancy. 00:41:40.093 --> 00:41:43.343 It's not, you know, it's not, it's not as good as an open API file. 00:41:43.343 --> 00:41:44.983 You'll get out a stoplight or something. 00:41:45.433 --> 00:41:46.743 Um, but it's a good beginning. 00:41:46.743 --> 00:41:47.863 You're like off to the races. 00:41:47.863 --> 00:41:50.543 And then if you start to customize the developer portal that we give 00:41:50.543 --> 00:41:53.343 you, you know, again, not all of the customers use our developer portal. 00:41:53.343 --> 00:41:57.503 Some folks say they're happy with readme or you know, reoc, all those folks. 00:41:57.503 --> 00:41:58.623 And again, we're fine with that. 00:41:58.623 --> 00:41:59.463 That's absolutely fine. 00:42:00.073 --> 00:42:02.863 Um, but I love that now that you know, that, that people are 00:42:02.863 --> 00:42:05.623 automatically just getting something, it's like some extra value for free. 00:42:05.623 --> 00:42:08.623 They might not know it yet, but they will in a year's time when they wanna 00:42:08.623 --> 00:42:11.463 start linking that a p i and they've got open a api, I, or they wanna 00:42:11.463 --> 00:42:13.063 start, does doing a API I design first. 00:42:13.063 --> 00:42:15.863 It's like, oh, well great, we've already got this in Zulo and we know 00:42:15.863 --> 00:42:18.983 it's the truth cuz it is the gateway that is, I know this is what's 00:42:18.983 --> 00:42:20.423 happening cuz it defines the gateway. 00:42:21.153 --> 00:42:22.783 Um, so we're excited about that as well. 00:42:23.328 --> 00:42:25.418 mike_bifulco: Josh, I would love to hear what you're thinking about 00:42:25.418 --> 00:42:27.898 in terms of other things that are coming next what are the big 00:42:27.898 --> 00:42:28.778 things that you're thinking about? 00:42:29.688 --> 00:42:31.578 josh_twist: I mean, I think there's a couple of trends 00:42:31.578 --> 00:42:32.658 obviously that are interesting. 00:42:32.658 --> 00:42:34.498 Like, I think edge compute is gonna be important. 00:42:34.498 --> 00:42:36.658 I think we see a lot of workloads shifting. 00:42:36.658 --> 00:42:42.418 There are, um, I haven't again, might be one for you folks to ruminate on as well. 00:42:42.738 --> 00:42:46.498 Obviously there's some really interesting stuff going on with AI right now, like 00:42:46.498 --> 00:42:50.738 from co-pilot to chat G P t writing your code, and I'm like, I've kind of 00:42:50.738 --> 00:42:54.138 got one eye on that going, how is this gonna play out in the world of APIs? 00:42:54.518 --> 00:42:57.178 And I'm not sure, I don't have a, anything intelligent to say 00:42:57.178 --> 00:42:58.178 on that, so I'm not gonna try. 00:42:58.668 --> 00:43:05.458 Um, but I, but I'm curious if you folks have, um, from a Zulo perspective, um, 00:43:06.668 --> 00:43:12.738 we have a lot of ambitions about helping, um, helping companies sort of govern APIs. 00:43:12.738 --> 00:43:17.578 But with lowercase g we talk, it, talk about it being, you know, api 00:43:17.578 --> 00:43:21.458 again, breaking down this, this silo of the, the API gateway being. 00:43:22.753 --> 00:43:28.143 Um, being sort of sat on a, on a, on a, in an ivory tower, on an iron throne. 00:43:28.913 --> 00:43:31.903 Um, and so we're really looking at a lot of ways we can do that. 00:43:31.903 --> 00:43:33.423 So there's, there's all kind of things we're being asked. 00:43:33.553 --> 00:43:39.063 So customers are asking for, um, they want to run these tests. 00:43:39.063 --> 00:43:41.903 We have that, we say basically make sure they, they're mostly 00:43:41.903 --> 00:43:43.183 like smoke tests, right? 00:43:43.183 --> 00:43:45.343 That the API they're shipping is not bulked in some way, or 00:43:45.343 --> 00:43:46.463 they've not mis wired a route. 00:43:47.003 --> 00:43:50.063 But then they're saying, I want to have other rules now that say someone can't 00:43:50.063 --> 00:43:53.423 go to production unless they've written tests that give them, and I'd never 00:43:53.423 --> 00:43:57.423 thought of this concept before, unless they have like 95% route coverage. 00:43:58.203 --> 00:43:59.433 So, you know, we think of code 00:43:59.443 --> 00:43:59.723 mike_bifulco: interesting. 00:43:59.873 --> 00:44:00.363 Yeah. 00:44:00.473 --> 00:44:00.713 josh_twist: right? 00:44:00.713 --> 00:44:03.913 But imagine a gateway that's like, you know, you've got tests, but you're only, 00:44:03.913 --> 00:44:05.833 you're only adding 30% of your routes. 00:44:06.443 --> 00:44:10.073 Playing with so many percentage of parameters and leaders 00:44:10.073 --> 00:44:10.993 in these organizations. 00:44:10.993 --> 00:44:11.953 They wanna be hands off. 00:44:11.953 --> 00:44:13.753 They wanna let their developers do what they do. 00:44:14.013 --> 00:44:18.873 And so the idea of creating automated rules and so on, that, that enforce 00:44:18.873 --> 00:44:20.113 the standards they're looking for. 00:44:20.113 --> 00:44:22.033 So Lin is one, but this testing is another. 00:44:22.243 --> 00:44:23.913 So we're exploring a lot of stuff like that. 00:44:24.123 --> 00:44:28.193 Um, and you know, we're, what I like doing there is we're building it with customers. 00:44:28.283 --> 00:44:32.433 So we're, you know, we're not, we're not inventing this, or we're sort of, there's 00:44:32.433 --> 00:44:35.113 a customer saying, I want this, and we're building it in partnership with them. 00:44:35.113 --> 00:44:39.553 So if anybody listening is interested in something like that, then we'll be 00:44:39.553 --> 00:44:42.393 all ears and very open to potentially sort of partnering with you and 00:44:42.833 --> 00:44:44.073 building it out as a POC for you. 00:44:44.073 --> 00:44:45.913 And then we'll, we productize it basically. 00:44:46.406 --> 00:44:46.896 mike_bifulco: Sure. 00:44:46.896 --> 00:44:47.176 Yeah. 00:44:47.176 --> 00:44:48.036 I think that's fascinating. 00:44:48.086 --> 00:44:51.176 gosh, uh, I guess I'm gonna admit to this on a recording, but I would 00:44:51.416 --> 00:44:54.456 identify myself as someone who spent a disproportionate amount of time poking at 00:44:54.456 --> 00:44:56.056 AI to see what's actually going on there. 00:44:56.706 --> 00:44:59.416 Uh, and, and ha have gone as far, actually, when I was at Stripe, 00:44:59.416 --> 00:45:02.136 I was building a product with AI just to show people how to build 00:45:02.136 --> 00:45:04.016 something using stripes, APIs, right. 00:45:04.016 --> 00:45:07.376 And sort of like a menial product that doesn't do anything, uh, earth shattering. 00:45:07.376 --> 00:45:09.856 But as a result, got me going down every rabbit hole under the 00:45:09.856 --> 00:45:11.016 sun, trying to find things out. 00:45:11.506 --> 00:45:14.736 Um, and I, I think from a generative code based. 00:45:14.941 --> 00:45:15.501 Thing. 00:45:15.801 --> 00:45:19.861 The, the things that strikes me that AI and APIs might get really interesting 00:45:19.861 --> 00:45:23.421 are things like writing better tests and writing better documentation. 00:45:24.071 --> 00:45:25.701 Uh, because it's pretty good at that. 00:45:25.701 --> 00:45:30.461 You can, you can, uh, have it sort of intro, spec, um, a bit of code and say 00:45:30.461 --> 00:45:32.221 like, explain to me what this code does. 00:45:32.631 --> 00:45:36.541 Uh, and to me, documentation is less mission critical than writing the, 00:45:36.541 --> 00:45:39.781 the code itself in the sense that like, if you write documentation and 00:45:39.781 --> 00:45:42.581 it's not great, it's not going to open up security holes necessarily. 00:45:43.071 --> 00:45:46.341 Uh, so it's a good place to start from, uh, in test case just as well, 00:45:46.341 --> 00:45:48.581 you could say, you know, write me a test case for this, that tests 00:45:48.851 --> 00:45:52.061 a dozen different ways that zip codes might not work for, you know, 00:45:52.061 --> 00:45:53.661 validation or whatever the case may be. 00:45:53.911 --> 00:45:55.981 Uh, and that ends up being pretty quick. 00:45:56.431 --> 00:45:58.781 Um, I've also found it to be invaluable for learning. 00:45:59.391 --> 00:46:03.821 So, uh, if, if it was something like, explain to me how to do this with, uh, 00:46:03.821 --> 00:46:07.461 you know, zola's management, uh, APIs or something like that, it's good at that. 00:46:08.441 --> 00:46:10.681 Would I trust it to build a bank for me? 00:46:11.321 --> 00:46:12.401 Probably not anytime soon. 00:46:12.401 --> 00:46:13.641 You know, that's a different story. 00:46:13.701 --> 00:46:18.961 But, um, the, it's the, it's the, I don't know, the liminal space between, uh, 00:46:19.141 --> 00:46:22.481 the, the actual creation of something and connecting it to other things that 00:46:22.481 --> 00:46:23.921 I think AI is very good at right now. 00:46:24.451 --> 00:46:27.441 Um, I will also say, I'm on the record saying I think AI is 00:46:27.681 --> 00:46:30.601 pretty dangerous because it looks authoritative when it isn't always. 00:46:31.291 --> 00:46:33.321 Uh, and I'll, I'll drop a, I'll link in the notes. 00:46:33.321 --> 00:46:35.241 I'll send it to you as well, Josh, about one 00:46:35.271 --> 00:46:37.671 josh_twist: hallucination they call it or something where it's like, um, 00:46:37.671 --> 00:46:39.071 halluc, is that the name I've seen? 00:46:39.071 --> 00:46:39.471 Yeah. 00:46:39.471 --> 00:46:40.431 I mean, I've been following it. 00:46:40.431 --> 00:46:41.751 I'm, I'm really interested in it actually. 00:46:41.751 --> 00:46:43.711 I thought it was a great answer that Mike, actually, the idea of 00:46:43.711 --> 00:46:47.231 testing seems like a really, I, that, that's another startup almost. 00:46:47.231 --> 00:46:47.391 Right? 00:46:47.391 --> 00:46:49.991 Someone should just go and do that, like build an API testing 00:46:49.991 --> 00:46:51.871 company that, that is AI generative. 00:46:52.201 --> 00:46:52.551 Um, 00:46:52.981 --> 00:46:54.991 Track 1: when it comes to documentation, I'm not sure. 00:46:54.991 --> 00:46:58.191 Um, I mean with most open APA documentation, it's like 00:46:58.271 --> 00:47:01.071 peram user ID description, the 00:47:01.391 --> 00:47:01.951 josh_twist: that's like the, 00:47:01.951 --> 00:47:04.711 it's like those comments that say, you know, the comments say 00:47:04.711 --> 00:47:05.791 the same thing as the function. 00:47:05.791 --> 00:47:08.711 It's like, this is the request parameter and this is the food parameter. 00:47:08.711 --> 00:47:09.991 And you're like, yeah, thanks for the 00:47:09.991 --> 00:47:10.271 comments. 00:47:10.271 --> 00:47:11.911 So you don't want documentation like that? 00:47:12.126 --> 00:47:12.616 mike_bifulco: Yeah, 00:47:12.616 --> 00:47:14.976 well, it'll save you a bunch of keystrokes in writing the 00:47:14.976 --> 00:47:17.336 JS doc that surrounds your thing or, you know, the, the 00:47:17.336 --> 00:47:18.256 Ruby equivalent or whatever. 00:47:18.906 --> 00:47:22.736 Um, I, I will say I need to caveat this with the most important AI story I have, 00:47:22.736 --> 00:47:26.016 which is, um, early on, in early days, I was trying to see if I could get AI 00:47:26.016 --> 00:47:30.576 to generate an interesting blog post for me about, uh, human psychology, like a 00:47:30.576 --> 00:47:31.616 thing that I found really interesting. 00:47:31.616 --> 00:47:36.776 And so I plugged this stuff into, uh, um, uh, open AI open api. 00:47:36.776 --> 00:47:37.056 Yeah. 00:47:37.246 --> 00:47:41.136 Gosh, now I'm getting all crossfire open AI's, uh, G P T A api. 00:47:41.136 --> 00:47:41.496 Right. 00:47:41.636 --> 00:47:44.136 And I asked it to write me an article about this very specific, 00:47:44.136 --> 00:47:46.736 like, psychological thing, and it wrote me a story and cited 00:47:46.846 --> 00:47:49.256 a marketing case study from. 00:47:50.966 --> 00:47:54.196 , uh, yellow Tail wine and it said Yellow Tail Wine did all this stuff 00:47:54.196 --> 00:47:56.916 and here's how they made a billion dollars with this marketing campaign. 00:47:56.916 --> 00:47:58.796 And like came up with examples and all these other things. 00:47:58.796 --> 00:48:03.516 And I went to look up the campaign that they had cuz it was , a um, campaign 00:48:03.516 --> 00:48:04.396 where they were bashing themselves. 00:48:04.396 --> 00:48:07.796 Basically the campaign was called Yellow Tail Wine Tastes like Crap, right? 00:48:07.796 --> 00:48:08.956 And that was like the whole thing. 00:48:08.956 --> 00:48:12.996 And, and the AI out of thin air completely made up this entire case. 00:48:12.996 --> 00:48:16.836 Study cited numbers provided, uh, names of campaigns and things like that. 00:48:16.836 --> 00:48:18.876 And near, as I can tell, it never existed. 00:48:19.316 --> 00:48:20.846 Track 1: Yeah, that's a known thing. 00:48:20.846 --> 00:48:22.166 It just makes up citations. 00:48:22.166 --> 00:48:25.326 Like all of the scientific, all of the scientific studies and like all 00:48:25.326 --> 00:48:28.406 of the researchers and all of the psychology, like all of the citations 00:48:28.406 --> 00:48:32.621 are invented for no apparent reason, but it's always like, Three random white 00:48:32.621 --> 00:48:36.301 dude names with like, you know, middle initials to make it sound intelligent, 00:48:36.321 --> 00:48:38.061 but done from the University of 00:48:38.451 --> 00:48:38.651 josh_twist: amazing. 00:48:38.651 --> 00:48:41.251 I've seen some examples of hallucination where like, it's getting some stuff 00:48:41.251 --> 00:48:43.731 wrong or some like obvious math problem wrong, but I've not seen anything 00:48:43.731 --> 00:48:46.531 that, that sort of elaborate where it looks almost like deliberately 00:48:46.531 --> 00:48:48.371 fraudulent, you know, with like citation. 00:48:48.371 --> 00:48:49.131 I hadn't seen that. 00:48:49.321 --> 00:48:51.811 I wonder what the, the phenomenon that's actually occurring there 00:48:51.811 --> 00:48:54.251 must be fascinating to someone who understands how this stuff 00:48:54.251 --> 00:48:54.491 works. 00:48:54.888 --> 00:48:56.278 Track 1: there's a, there's a thing. 00:48:56.278 --> 00:48:58.598 I can't remember what it was, but it's like intentional. 00:48:58.598 --> 00:49:02.358 They have some particular reason for intentionally making 00:49:02.358 --> 00:49:04.038 up citations. 00:49:04.038 --> 00:49:04.278 I 00:49:04.428 --> 00:49:04.848 josh_twist: Wow. 00:49:04.848 --> 00:49:06.808 Okay, well I've got some reading material here myself. 00:49:06.808 --> 00:49:08.328 These are great show notes for me and I'm on the show. 00:49:08.328 --> 00:49:08.768 That's awesome. 00:49:09.634 --> 00:49:10.194 Track 1: some, yeah. 00:49:10.374 --> 00:49:13.954 I'm also wondering if the open AI G P T API has an 00:49:13.954 --> 00:49:14.474 open api. 00:49:14.474 --> 00:49:15.994 That's the most important question here. 00:49:16.504 --> 00:49:19.194 josh_twist: That is the hardest sentence that has ever been 00:49:19.194 --> 00:49:21.354 successfully said in a first take ever 00:49:21.514 --> 00:49:21.874 Track 1: ever. 00:49:22.609 --> 00:49:24.584 I honestly don't know how I said that. 00:49:24.584 --> 00:49:24.864 I 00:49:24.864 --> 00:49:25.024 am 00:49:25.434 --> 00:49:26.544 shocked and impressed, 00:49:26.864 --> 00:49:27.104 josh_twist: done. 00:49:27.414 --> 00:49:28.104 Yeah, no. 00:49:28.104 --> 00:49:28.744 I wonder if they do. 00:49:28.744 --> 00:49:30.144 I know they use Off zero actually. 00:49:30.144 --> 00:49:31.104 They're not using Zulo. 00:49:31.104 --> 00:49:31.504 Not yet. 00:49:31.504 --> 00:49:34.704 Maybe, uh, maybe, uh, if anyone has a connection with Sam, we 00:49:34.704 --> 00:49:35.824 can um, we can get 'em over. 00:49:36.394 --> 00:49:37.144 Um, Yeah. 00:49:37.389 --> 00:49:41.739 mike_bifulco: So the, the one thing I feel like I would be, um, remiss, 00:49:41.739 --> 00:49:45.979 uh, if I didn't ask you Josh, is for developers who are building API 00:49:45.979 --> 00:49:49.699 products and, uh, building API projects as side hobbies, things like that. 00:49:50.029 --> 00:49:51.419 Um, where do you go for news? 00:49:51.419 --> 00:49:54.859 Where do you go to look for things, uh, that are not APIs you won't 00:49:54.859 --> 00:49:57.059 hate.com, uh, or open api.tools? 00:49:57.059 --> 00:50:00.219 Like how do you keep your eyes on what's coming and how do you know, 00:50:00.429 --> 00:50:03.259 um, you know, when, when changes are coming, like edge compute 00:50:03.259 --> 00:50:03.939 and things like that? 00:50:05.864 --> 00:50:08.914 josh_twist: Yeah, I, I'm not super strategic about this, sadly. 00:50:08.914 --> 00:50:10.634 I wish I had a better answer to this question. 00:50:10.704 --> 00:50:12.634 I mean, I spend a bit of time on hacking news. 00:50:12.634 --> 00:50:17.434 I just, it'll be like the obvious places, you know, um, often I'm looking 00:50:17.694 --> 00:50:22.074 for, I, I, I probably, it just comes across my path now cause of what I do. 00:50:22.074 --> 00:50:25.554 Like someone on the team's gonna send it to me or something so that I, I kind of 00:50:25.554 --> 00:50:27.994 have like a bunch of curation happening. 00:50:28.424 --> 00:50:31.874 I proactively spend time where I think people will be, 00:50:32.269 --> 00:50:33.869 Asking questions about this. 00:50:33.869 --> 00:50:36.909 So, you know, I recently found, I hadn't seen this before, I was kind of amazed. 00:50:36.909 --> 00:50:38.229 There's this site called Indie Hackers. 00:50:38.229 --> 00:50:41.069 I dunno if you know it, I think it's created by someone at Stripe actually. 00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:45.189 Um, and that's a great place for conversations if I'm from thinking 00:50:45.189 --> 00:50:47.109 about what are the problems those people are trying to solve. 00:50:47.109 --> 00:50:50.749 So I'm, I'm a bit more strategic about trying to go out there and discover 00:50:50.749 --> 00:50:53.189 the things people are talking about, the problems they're trying to solve. 00:50:53.189 --> 00:50:55.829 Cause that's, I think, that's where I can come in and add value. 00:50:56.159 --> 00:51:01.509 Um, I'm not super good at keeping up with, um, with, uh, all the latest trends. 00:51:01.739 --> 00:51:09.069 I follow the usual people, Ken Lane, you know, uh, Kevin Sch fiber, you guys, um, 00:51:09.089 --> 00:51:13.029 you know, I, I probably could share a list of, of people I enjoy, uh, Kenneth 00:51:13.029 --> 00:51:18.469 Thunberg, um, these folks, and they tend to flag, flag things I'm interested in. 00:51:18.809 --> 00:51:20.309 But yeah, that's, that's 00:51:20.309 --> 00:51:21.349 my, I'm not super strategic 00:51:21.654 --> 00:51:22.024 mike_bifulco: Sure. 00:51:22.024 --> 00:51:23.264 Um, well, that's reasonable to me. 00:51:23.314 --> 00:51:27.184 My, um, I've, I've abandoned Twitter somewhat recently, and so I've been having 00:51:27.184 --> 00:51:31.064 to look in different places for, uh, you know, expertise and learning and all that. 00:51:31.064 --> 00:51:34.464 And apart from having Phil send me a link every now and again to something that, 00:51:34.464 --> 00:51:38.224 you know, uh, learns me this and that, uh, I've, I've really had to change, like 00:51:38.224 --> 00:51:41.064 my, my behaviors and places I've gotten to learn are really changing lately. 00:51:41.114 --> 00:51:41.464 So, 00:51:41.464 --> 00:51:41.904 yeah. 00:51:42.129 --> 00:51:42.859 josh_twist: You're on 00:51:43.054 --> 00:51:43.824 mike_bifulco: I am, yeah. 00:51:44.819 --> 00:51:46.469 josh_twist: I, someone needs to teach me how to use it. 00:51:46.469 --> 00:51:47.149 That's the only problem. 00:51:47.149 --> 00:51:51.389 I, uh, I'm, I'm hit by that wall of like, it's bowser level one problem, right. 00:51:51.389 --> 00:51:52.629 That we talked about before. 00:51:52.629 --> 00:51:55.789 It is tricky, but, uh, I, the, the, you feel the reward is 00:51:55.789 --> 00:51:55.909 there. 00:51:55.909 --> 00:51:56.349 It's worth it. 00:51:56.789 --> 00:51:58.139 mike_bifulco: Um, I'm not sure. 00:51:58.389 --> 00:52:00.579 Uh, I, I will say I benefited quite a bit. 00:52:00.579 --> 00:52:02.579 Early days when I first moved over last summer. 00:52:02.789 --> 00:52:06.339 Uh, someone who was touting themselves as, uh, mastodons, unofficial 00:52:06.339 --> 00:52:10.579 Derell, uh, was posting some really great tutorials on how to mastodon 00:52:10.579 --> 00:52:12.579 correctly, and that was really useful. 00:52:12.709 --> 00:52:16.899 Um, I've, I've, um, really just kind of turned down the taps on all of that 00:52:16.899 --> 00:52:20.459 for myself, like less, less mastered on than I was doing on Twitter. 00:52:20.649 --> 00:52:24.099 I've started posting on LinkedIn and I really don't like it. 00:52:24.469 --> 00:52:27.779 Uh, it's just not like the, the kind of place that's validating 00:52:27.779 --> 00:52:29.419 for sort of expertise I seek. 00:52:29.949 --> 00:52:33.259 Um, and so like, I don't know, Google blogs, things like 00:52:33.259 --> 00:52:34.579 that, or, or podcasts, right? 00:52:34.579 --> 00:52:37.459 Or where a lot of my learning comes from YouTube disproportionately too. 00:52:38.099 --> 00:52:38.589 josh_twist: Yeah, 00:52:39.048 --> 00:52:42.058 Track 1: Yeah, I don't know where I would go to to be able 00:52:42.058 --> 00:52:43.338 to just be the same person. 00:52:43.778 --> 00:52:47.328 My, my, the people that follow me now are the most weird collection 00:52:47.328 --> 00:52:51.768 of people of like hardcore old school PHP nerds and API nerds. 00:52:51.768 --> 00:52:55.408 And then more recently, like a bunch of counselors who are like, mostly 00:52:55.408 --> 00:52:58.288 are like trying to get me to help them remove invasive species from 00:52:58.288 --> 00:52:59.128 their woodland around the corner. 00:52:59.148 --> 00:53:02.408 And I'm just effing and blinding and banging on about computers and then 00:53:02.408 --> 00:53:03.728 getting really nerdy about 00:53:04.043 --> 00:53:05.723 josh_twist: might be the way this Twitter stream might follow. 00:53:06.003 --> 00:53:07.003 Actually, it's definitely up there. 00:53:07.273 --> 00:53:09.483 It's like, why am I following this guy again? 00:53:09.483 --> 00:53:09.923 What's here, 00:53:09.948 --> 00:53:10.798 Track 1: this guy again. 00:53:11.313 --> 00:53:12.163 josh_twist: It's good content. 00:53:12.363 --> 00:53:13.243 It's just random. 00:53:13.243 --> 00:53:13.683 It's 00:53:13.683 --> 00:53:14.123 just out there, 00:53:14.328 --> 00:53:15.458 Track 1: here's me showing you 00:53:15.458 --> 00:53:18.338 how to fix a, a, a flat tire by shoving grass in there. 00:53:18.338 --> 00:53:20.538 And then next, like, it's just, there's such a weird 00:53:20.538 --> 00:53:21.258 mixture of stuff. 00:53:22.348 --> 00:53:25.358 mike_bifulco: Yeah, Phil, I routinely tell people that you are, uh, the, 00:53:25.358 --> 00:53:28.638 the, the person I know with the highest talent for telling people when to go fuck 00:53:28.638 --> 00:53:31.158 off, uh, and exactly why they're wrong. 00:53:31.368 --> 00:53:33.918 Uh, and, and I want to channel some more of that in my life, 00:53:33.945 --> 00:53:34.385 for sure. 00:53:34.435 --> 00:53:34.925 Track 1: Well, 00:53:35.033 --> 00:53:37.133 I'm currently getting into an argument with a whole bunch of 00:53:37.133 --> 00:53:40.533 people cuz the Wildlife Trust and HS two, the high speed rail line. 00:53:40.663 --> 00:53:43.613 Um, I just tweeted and said they're both going at each other like an 00:53:43.613 --> 00:53:47.133 overserved hen party fighting over who gets to hold the inflatable cock. 00:53:47.463 --> 00:53:50.933 Um, and they, uh, yeah that's super professional off me 00:53:52.210 --> 00:53:54.160 mike_bifulco: Oh, we all have something to learn from you, Phil. 00:53:54.160 --> 00:53:54.520 I think 00:53:54.730 --> 00:53:56.780 josh_twist: I think there's a training course there, a Udemy 00:53:56.780 --> 00:53:58.980 course on, on, on the skill. 00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:02.780 You described that Phil has like a, like a, a self-help course 00:54:02.780 --> 00:54:05.260 and um, there's a book like that. 00:54:05.260 --> 00:54:05.740 How to Give 00:54:05.740 --> 00:54:06.020 Less. 00:54:06.900 --> 00:54:09.750 Track 1: Anyway, that, That's probably about time to call it a 00:54:09.750 --> 00:54:12.390 day .Cause it's just, it's just send it into nonsense that 00:54:12.390 --> 00:54:12.630 that 00:54:12.630 --> 00:54:13.070 that always 00:54:13.070 --> 00:54:13.470 happens at 00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:15.770 mike_bifulco: Josh, where can our listeners find you and where 00:54:15.770 --> 00:54:16.130 can they find 00:54:16.290 --> 00:54:16.570 Zulo? 00:54:16.620 --> 00:54:17.930 josh_twist: Uh, they can find me on Twitter. 00:54:17.990 --> 00:54:19.130 I'm not super active. 00:54:19.220 --> 00:54:22.210 Um, uh, Josh Twist, they can find zulo on Twitter as well 00:54:22.210 --> 00:54:25.170 at zulo, um, and uh, zulo.com. 00:54:25.820 --> 00:54:30.530 Um, I'm super chatty, so you can email me@joshzulo.com as well, and 00:54:30.530 --> 00:54:32.450 I will almost certainly respond. 00:54:32.540 --> 00:54:35.210 So yeah, um, reach out, say hi. 00:54:35.530 --> 00:54:36.930 Those are easy places to find me. 00:54:36.930 --> 00:54:37.970 I'm on LinkedIn as well though, 00:54:37.970 --> 00:54:38.170 Mike. 00:54:38.170 --> 00:54:39.450 Uh, , that's a thing. 00:54:39.505 --> 00:54:39.625 Track 1: make 00:54:39.875 --> 00:54:40.545 mike_bifulco: Perfect. 00:54:40.695 --> 00:54:43.425 I'll, I'll send you my, uh, list of 10 things I do to make my 00:54:43.690 --> 00:54:44.610 josh_twist: There we go. 00:54:44.705 --> 00:54:45.305 mike_bifulco: on LinkedIn. 00:54:45.755 --> 00:54:48.465 Uh, you also mentioned before that you're hiring for at least one role. 00:54:48.465 --> 00:54:49.545 Where's the place to go for that? 00:54:49.850 --> 00:54:53.320 josh_twist: Uh, you can actually just email, just email josh zulo.com if 00:54:53.320 --> 00:54:56.720 you're, if you're interested in the developer advocate role, um, it, it is 00:54:56.720 --> 00:54:58.920 on our website, um, listed as a role too. 00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:01.920 You can email jobs zulo.com as well, but I'll be person looking 00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:03.160 at 'em, so, so 00:55:03.160 --> 00:55:04.080 yeah, get in 00:55:04.080 --> 00:55:04.280 touch. 00:55:04.635 --> 00:55:05.305 mike_bifulco: Perfect. 00:55:05.305 --> 00:55:06.305 Well, thanks so much for your time. 00:55:06.305 --> 00:55:07.305 It was wonderful chatting with you. 00:55:07.305 --> 00:55:08.825 And thanks for, uh, your sponsorship as 00:55:08.890 --> 00:55:09.380 josh_twist: Yeah, 00:55:09.425 --> 00:55:09.825 Track 1: your talk. 00:55:09.855 --> 00:55:10.665 Yeah, thank you 00:55:10.775 --> 00:55:11.615 josh_twist: Yeah, I had a laugh. 00:55:11.615 --> 00:55:12.135 That's great. 00:55:12.135 --> 00:55:12.735 Thanks folks.