WEBVTT 00:00:03.030 --> 00:00:07.830 Matt Abrahams: From making ideas stick to magic moments to unsticking processes, 00:00:08.189 --> 00:00:12.900 Dan Heath has helped me and people around the world to be more effective 00:00:12.900 --> 00:00:15.300 in their communication and lives. 00:00:15.660 --> 00:00:18.840 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:20.730 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:21.030 --> 00:00:26.340 Welcome to this Rethinks episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:27.029 --> 00:00:31.049 I'm excited to open up our vast vault of past episodes to highlight 00:00:31.049 --> 00:00:33.480 the insights and input of Dan Heath. 00:00:33.839 --> 00:00:37.980 Listen in as Dan helps us to be more persuasive and effective. 00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:45.690 When it comes to effectiveness and our communication, it can benefit us to 00:00:45.690 --> 00:00:51.209 take a step back and appreciate the systems that influence what we do and 00:00:51.209 --> 00:00:55.964 to look for the leverage points to maximize the resources we bring to bear. 00:00:56.745 --> 00:01:00.555 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:01:00.555 --> 00:01:02.504 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:01:02.775 --> 00:01:06.435 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:01:07.155 --> 00:01:09.900 I am really looking forward to speaking with Dan Heath. 00:01:09.900 --> 00:01:14.175 Dan is a number one New York Times bestselling co-author and author of 00:01:14.175 --> 00:01:20.385 six books including Power of Moments, Decisive, Switch, and Made to Stick. 00:01:20.805 --> 00:01:23.895 Several of his books he co-wrote with his brother Chip, who 00:01:23.895 --> 00:01:26.235 he interviewed in episode 49. 00:01:26.745 --> 00:01:29.175 Dan also hosts the award-winning podcast. 00:01:29.505 --> 00:01:30.855 What It's Like To Be. 00:01:31.305 --> 00:01:34.965 Dan's latest book is Reset: How to Change What's Not Working. 00:01:35.325 --> 00:01:36.105 Welcome, Dan. 00:01:36.285 --> 00:01:38.385 I am a huge fan of your work. 00:01:38.385 --> 00:01:39.555 Thanks so much for being here. 00:01:39.945 --> 00:01:40.755 Dan Heath: Thank you, Matt. 00:01:40.755 --> 00:01:42.195 It's a, it's an honor to be on the show. 00:01:42.195 --> 00:01:42.915 I'm a follower. 00:01:43.365 --> 00:01:44.235 Matt Abrahams: Thank you. 00:01:44.445 --> 00:01:45.075 Shall we get started? 00:01:45.600 --> 00:01:46.259 Dan Heath: Let's do it. 00:01:46.619 --> 00:01:49.500 Matt Abrahams: I've enjoyed all of your books, but Made to Stick, which focuses 00:01:49.500 --> 00:01:54.300 on how to get ideas to stick in a world of so much information, and Switch, 00:01:54.300 --> 00:01:58.410 which is all about effective persuasion, continue to have a profound influence 00:01:58.410 --> 00:02:00.270 on my life and in my communication. 00:02:00.600 --> 00:02:03.060 I asked your brother, Chip, when he was on the same question 00:02:03.060 --> 00:02:04.440 I'd like to start with for you. 00:02:04.710 --> 00:02:08.579 Can you share with us one powerful takeaway from each of those books 00:02:08.579 --> 00:02:09.870 that still impact your life? 00:02:10.530 --> 00:02:13.019 Dan Heath: Yes, and I guess we can compare answers. 00:02:13.019 --> 00:02:14.644 I'm not sure what he said, so we'll have to find out. 00:02:15.200 --> 00:02:16.820 Memory lane, Made to Stick. 00:02:16.820 --> 00:02:20.390 Here's one takeaway, and I doubt this will come as a surprise to any of your 00:02:20.390 --> 00:02:24.530 listeners, but the power of storytelling, and I think that's probably a familiar 00:02:24.530 --> 00:02:26.750 enough lesson that I need not harp on it. 00:02:26.780 --> 00:02:30.500 But what may be interesting is in the book we make the case that the 00:02:30.500 --> 00:02:35.750 reason stories are so powerful is they have these kind of extraordinary twin 00:02:35.750 --> 00:02:39.230 powers of simulation and inspiration. 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:44.355 So in other words, you go to the movie to see a visual story and 00:02:44.355 --> 00:02:48.945 when the protagonist is in trouble, your pulse quickens, right? 00:02:48.945 --> 00:02:50.595 Which is just a fundamentally weird thing. 00:02:50.595 --> 00:02:52.005 That's the power of simulation. 00:02:52.005 --> 00:02:56.535 You are, in a sense, experiencing what the protagonist of a story is experiencing. 00:02:56.715 --> 00:02:59.565 Same thing is true for more organizational forms, though. 00:02:59.565 --> 00:03:03.810 You tell a story of some customer who got an extraordinary service experience. 00:03:03.810 --> 00:03:07.560 As another employee hearing that story, you're able to simulate 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:09.420 what if it had been me doing that? 00:03:09.810 --> 00:03:12.660 And that brings us also to the second power of inspiration. 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.740 You don't just live temporarily in that story. 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:21.780 You naturally start to think, Hey, if they can do that, what can I do? 00:03:21.990 --> 00:03:23.910 It's a spark for action. 00:03:24.150 --> 00:03:26.760 And I think that's one of the reasons why stories are such 00:03:26.760 --> 00:03:29.130 profound vehicles for communication. 00:03:29.865 --> 00:03:30.495 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:03:30.495 --> 00:03:32.145 Storytelling is really powerful. 00:03:32.145 --> 00:03:34.545 I want to hear about what you take away from Switch. 00:03:34.755 --> 00:03:38.925 Dan Heath: I would say the number one thing that I still routinely talk 00:03:38.925 --> 00:03:42.525 about, and in fact it's been prominent for me, that I brought it back as a 00:03:42.525 --> 00:03:46.515 chapter in my new book, and that's the notion of studying bright spots. 00:03:46.965 --> 00:03:51.765 So this is a very simple idea, which is that psychology says that we 00:03:51.765 --> 00:03:54.260 tend to dwell on what's not working. 00:03:54.890 --> 00:03:58.460 The problems, the emergencies, the negative aspects of 00:03:58.460 --> 00:03:59.600 the data we're looking at. 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:03.710 So we get employee engagement surveys back and what do we look at first? 00:04:03.710 --> 00:04:04.190 What's wrong? 00:04:04.920 --> 00:04:05.820 Who's disengaged? 00:04:05.820 --> 00:04:07.140 What are the, oh, the scores are dropped. 00:04:07.140 --> 00:04:07.500 Oh, no. 00:04:07.500 --> 00:04:08.310 There's a crisis. 00:04:08.310 --> 00:04:13.170 Like our, our attention immediately goes to the problems, but in that same 00:04:13.170 --> 00:04:18.149 engagement data, there was a tale of employees on the positive end, and 00:04:18.149 --> 00:04:19.800 no one ever says, Hey, wait a second. 00:04:20.219 --> 00:04:21.480 What's going on there? 00:04:21.719 --> 00:04:23.280 Why are those employees so happy? 00:04:23.280 --> 00:04:24.360 Why are they so engaged? 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:28.965 If we can get to the bottom of what makes them so satisfied, so purposeful, 00:04:29.145 --> 00:04:32.085 maybe we'll learn things that would help shift the curve for everyone. 00:04:32.355 --> 00:04:36.435 It's like we treat success with a kind of relief. 00:04:36.555 --> 00:04:38.505 We're like, oh, okay, that's working, good. 00:04:38.505 --> 00:04:42.315 'Cause that frees me up to go spend more time where the problems are, and we make 00:04:42.315 --> 00:04:44.895 the case in Switch that's backwards. 00:04:44.925 --> 00:04:49.815 That there is so much that we can learn that is practical and hopeful 00:04:50.025 --> 00:04:54.495 simply by obsessing about what is working as much as we naturally 00:04:54.765 --> 00:04:55.935 obsess about what's not working. 00:04:56.565 --> 00:04:57.465 Matt Abrahams: It's interesting, right? 00:04:57.465 --> 00:05:01.275 I think there's a human tendency just to focus on the negative and looking at 00:05:01.275 --> 00:05:03.104 that positive can be very insightful. 00:05:03.104 --> 00:05:06.344 You can look for patterns and trends that you can adopt and adapt to. 00:05:06.974 --> 00:05:10.185 I wanna come back to storytelling because one of the things that really impresses 00:05:10.185 --> 00:05:14.530 me in your work is, not only do you talk about story and analyze story, but you're 00:05:14.530 --> 00:05:16.419 actually a really good storyteller. 00:05:16.690 --> 00:05:21.640 Can you give us a little insight into your process for one, thinking 00:05:21.640 --> 00:05:24.489 about the stories that you tell in your books and when you speak on your 00:05:24.489 --> 00:05:30.039 podcast, but also the process about how to craft and deliver those stories, 00:05:30.039 --> 00:05:31.179 because that's equally as powerful? 00:05:32.235 --> 00:05:35.475 Dan Heath: It is the heart of what I do and what takes the most time out 00:05:35.475 --> 00:05:36.975 of everything I work on as a writer. 00:05:36.975 --> 00:05:40.455 So maybe what I should do, let me just tell a story from the book and 00:05:40.455 --> 00:05:44.055 then talk a little bit about, just gesticulate at it and tell, tell 00:05:44.055 --> 00:05:46.065 what my intentions were in using it. 00:05:46.365 --> 00:05:51.165 So the very first story in Reset is about the receiving area at the 00:05:51.165 --> 00:05:52.844 Northwestern Memorial Hospital. 00:05:52.875 --> 00:05:55.575 So this is the part of the hospital that takes in packages, gets them 00:05:55.575 --> 00:05:57.735 delivered to their ultimate destination. 00:05:58.275 --> 00:06:03.585 And at the point when the story starts, it takes them an average of three days to get 00:06:03.585 --> 00:06:05.745 packages delivered within the hospital. 00:06:06.165 --> 00:06:11.625 UPS might get some medicine across the country in a day or two, and then to get 00:06:11.625 --> 00:06:15.105 the package from the basement to like the third floor takes another three days. 00:06:15.105 --> 00:06:18.315 So it's just crazy, but it's been crazy as long as anyone can remember. 00:06:19.724 --> 00:06:21.674 It is something that everyone's adapted to. 00:06:21.674 --> 00:06:22.755 They're not dumb people. 00:06:22.755 --> 00:06:23.924 They're not lazy people. 00:06:24.224 --> 00:06:26.955 They have just always lived in a system where it takes three 00:06:26.955 --> 00:06:28.395 days to get these packages out. 00:06:28.664 --> 00:06:30.645 So this is expensive. 00:06:30.914 --> 00:06:33.585 They're having medications expire in the box. 00:06:33.585 --> 00:06:36.434 They're having people over order 'cause they want to dodge this 00:06:36.674 --> 00:06:38.294 chaos of the receiving area. 00:06:38.294 --> 00:06:42.224 They have people trying to make side deals with FedEx drivers to come directly to the 00:06:42.224 --> 00:06:44.054 third floor and bypass the receiving area. 00:06:44.594 --> 00:06:47.484 So into this mess, comes a new person named Paul Suett. 00:06:48.180 --> 00:06:50.040 And if we just freeze there for a second. 00:06:50.310 --> 00:06:51.780 So what is this story doing? 00:06:51.780 --> 00:06:56.610 Number one, just observe that there is nothing naturally compelling 00:06:56.640 --> 00:06:58.140 about this topic area, right? 00:06:58.140 --> 00:07:02.670 There is not, there's no sex, there is no violence, there are no celebrities. 00:07:03.030 --> 00:07:06.300 It, it is the most boring imaginable domain. 00:07:06.690 --> 00:07:10.380 Yet there are universal themes here that kind of get us on the hook. 00:07:10.380 --> 00:07:13.080 Like these were the pariahs of the hospital. 00:07:13.080 --> 00:07:15.720 All of a sudden implicitly we're rooting for them, right? 00:07:15.900 --> 00:07:18.990 And then this new guy comes in and you wonder what is he gonna do? 00:07:18.990 --> 00:07:20.880 There's, there's a detective story element. 00:07:20.880 --> 00:07:22.675 What is he gonna do to untangle this mess? 00:07:23.550 --> 00:07:26.640 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, you build that curiosity, but also when you were 00:07:26.640 --> 00:07:30.570 describing the problem, you didn't just itemize the different things. 00:07:30.570 --> 00:07:32.160 You actually really reinforced it. 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.850 I love the point where you said, Hey, UPS can do it in a day or two. 00:07:36.150 --> 00:07:39.720 That really adds a, a magnifier to what's coming. 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:41.550 So I, I appreciated that part. 00:07:42.165 --> 00:07:44.715 Dan Heath: So Paul Suett comes in, he's our protagonist. 00:07:44.715 --> 00:07:46.965 We talked about simulation and inspiration, right? 00:07:46.965 --> 00:07:49.035 So now we're walking in Paul Suett shoes. 00:07:49.455 --> 00:07:52.245 First thing he does is he says, what problems can I solve for you? 00:07:52.485 --> 00:07:53.715 What's getting in your way? 00:07:54.165 --> 00:07:58.305 And so the team's giving him a laundry list of complaints and obstacles. 00:07:58.305 --> 00:08:02.995 Some of them quite mundane, like the wheels on the carts that we push around 00:08:02.995 --> 00:08:04.974 are sometimes real stuck and jangly. 00:08:04.974 --> 00:08:08.515 So Suett says, instantly, we'll get you new carts, new wheels, whatever you need. 00:08:08.515 --> 00:08:10.885 He's trying to just show them that he's on their team. 00:08:10.885 --> 00:08:14.905 He's not the know-it-all coming into quote unquote fix things, and he 00:08:14.905 --> 00:08:16.705 invites them into the detective work. 00:08:16.705 --> 00:08:21.055 So every day for an hour a day, 12 days in a row, they stop what they're doing, 00:08:21.195 --> 00:08:24.900 and they just walk the line from where the packages come in through all the 00:08:24.900 --> 00:08:27.570 stations to the eventual destination. 00:08:27.810 --> 00:08:28.919 They're noticing things. 00:08:28.950 --> 00:08:31.349 What's delaying operations, what's blocking us? 00:08:31.710 --> 00:08:37.890 The number one thing that pops out of this process is they have unwittingly used 00:08:37.890 --> 00:08:40.049 batch processes where they are not needed. 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:41.730 We all use batch process. 00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:45.510 Nobody runs a single sock in the washer and dryer, and nobody runs 00:08:45.510 --> 00:08:46.620 a single spoon in the dishwasher. 00:08:46.620 --> 00:08:50.400 So we get the value of batch processes, but they were doing this to a fault. 00:08:50.400 --> 00:08:54.480 So the idea was let's wait until a bunch of packages build up on the receiving 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.930 dock, and then we'll do the scanning into inventory all at once, like boop, 00:08:58.050 --> 00:08:59.335 that'll be quote unquote efficient. 00:09:00.195 --> 00:09:03.930 But what Suett helped them realize is that there was no natural 00:09:03.930 --> 00:09:07.110 organic reason to have these delays. 00:09:07.140 --> 00:09:11.820 That, as he said, the system should flow like a river and we should be able to 00:09:11.820 --> 00:09:15.600 take a package and have it flow along and we should be removing friction, 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:17.280 removing obstacles from its way. 00:09:17.490 --> 00:09:20.850 And so it's like this ah-ha experience they set about completely 00:09:20.850 --> 00:09:22.020 changing the way they work. 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.685 Within 12 weeks, they're delivering 90% of the packages in one day. 00:09:26.875 --> 00:09:31.360 Something nobody thought imaginable, much less practical. 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:34.570 People start visiting the receiving area to learn what they've done. 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:40.090 And so again, if you zoom out of the story for a second, there is zero of natural 00:09:40.090 --> 00:09:42.250 intrinsic value in any of these details. 00:09:42.280 --> 00:09:45.070 I mean, I said the, the phrase batch processes, and you didn't 00:09:45.070 --> 00:09:46.540 immediately go to sleep, right? 00:09:46.570 --> 00:09:48.970 Which is, that's the power of story, right? 00:09:48.970 --> 00:09:53.590 Is once we see a protagonist and a challenge and some stakes 00:09:53.590 --> 00:09:55.420 that matter, like we're in it. 00:09:55.715 --> 00:09:58.025 Matt Abrahams: But with that batch processing, you did something I 00:09:58.025 --> 00:10:00.485 think, which is very masterful, is you didn't define it. 00:10:00.515 --> 00:10:02.195 You didn't say, here's what a batch process is. 00:10:02.195 --> 00:10:05.315 'Cause many people know what it is, but they don't know that term. 00:10:05.735 --> 00:10:08.015 But you just said, we don't wash one sock. 00:10:08.015 --> 00:10:10.439 We don't put one spoon in the dishwasher. 00:10:10.709 --> 00:10:14.310 That was a great way of explaining something without actually breaking it 00:10:14.310 --> 00:10:15.930 down and saying, now I'm explaining it. 00:10:16.229 --> 00:10:19.680 You do a great job of hooking us in and diagnosing and 00:10:19.680 --> 00:10:21.239 describing for us what you do. 00:10:21.510 --> 00:10:23.609 I'm curious, how do you find these stories? 00:10:23.609 --> 00:10:24.849 How did you find Paul Suett? 00:10:25.170 --> 00:10:26.600 Did you know him? 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:27.860 Did somebody point you to him? 00:10:27.860 --> 00:10:29.360 Did you, were you in that hospital? 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:30.800 How did you find that story? 00:10:31.040 --> 00:10:35.270 Dan Heath: This is the most frustrating and rewarding aspect of the work is the 00:10:35.270 --> 00:10:39.140 majority of the way I spend my time as a writer is finding stories like that. 00:10:39.260 --> 00:10:42.500 I spend a lot of time figuring out what am I trying to say to the reader? 00:10:42.590 --> 00:10:45.800 How am I gonna arm them with principles to make their life or their work better? 00:10:45.800 --> 00:10:46.670 That's part one. 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:52.380 And then part two is how can I hang those principles on stories that are 00:10:52.380 --> 00:10:56.520 more compelling than me just yammering on about systems and operations and so 00:10:56.520 --> 00:10:59.069 forth, and it is like panning for gold. 00:10:59.069 --> 00:11:00.660 I mean, you've probably experienced this too. 00:11:00.750 --> 00:11:04.469 There is no reliable process for finding great stories. 00:11:04.469 --> 00:11:07.500 It is just, you gotta go shake the trees every day, and then the next 00:11:07.500 --> 00:11:08.729 day you wake up and you do it again. 00:11:09.255 --> 00:11:13.604 This particular story was written up in a business school case, and there was 00:11:13.604 --> 00:11:17.925 a very heavy operation spin on it, but there was so much that was interesting 00:11:17.925 --> 00:11:22.094 in the details that my team and I, we decided to re-report the whole thing. 00:11:22.094 --> 00:11:26.495 So I, one of my colleagues actually flew to, uh, Evanston and met with Paul Suett 00:11:26.625 --> 00:11:28.454 and saw the operations and took pictures. 00:11:28.454 --> 00:11:31.785 And in that case it was like taking a different spin on a story 00:11:31.785 --> 00:11:32.890 someone else had already spotted. 00:11:33.435 --> 00:11:37.125 In a lot of other cases in the book, it was just a byproduct of you have 00:11:37.125 --> 00:11:40.965 10 conversations to get down to that one story that really connects. 00:11:41.610 --> 00:11:44.430 Matt Abrahams: I like though that you start with an idea, a goal of what 00:11:44.430 --> 00:11:48.000 you're trying to achieve, and the goal is to really help people and to clearly 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:52.860 explain it and then find stories and other tools that can help get that across. 00:11:53.040 --> 00:11:56.310 And I think a lot of people skip that step and they just try to 00:11:56.310 --> 00:11:59.459 jump to the information without having a clear goal upfront. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:00.209 Dan Heath: Yeah. 00:12:00.209 --> 00:12:04.770 For me, stories are just like a vessel to get messages across 00:12:04.829 --> 00:12:06.449 in a reader friendly way. 00:12:06.510 --> 00:12:09.870 So it's like what that Northwestern story did for me at the start of the book, was 00:12:09.870 --> 00:12:13.755 it just it brought to bear a bunch of themes that even people that are not in 00:12:13.755 --> 00:12:15.735 hospital receiving areas can recognize. 00:12:15.735 --> 00:12:20.415 What is it like to be part of a system that's stuck and what is it like to 00:12:20.415 --> 00:12:25.155 endure subpar performance but feel like you're powerless to affect it. 00:12:25.335 --> 00:12:28.545 And you know, and have other people in the hospital judge you, you know, the pariahs 00:12:28.545 --> 00:12:30.465 of the hospital was a quote that came out. 00:12:30.645 --> 00:12:35.625 And what is it like to be able to undo that by finding leverage points and 00:12:35.625 --> 00:12:39.675 complicated systems and seeing how things can change, actually surprisingly quickly, 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:42.040 if you find the right places to push. 00:12:42.370 --> 00:12:45.490 Matt Abrahams: So it really sets expectations for what's to come, not 00:12:45.490 --> 00:12:49.600 just in terms of what you'll be talking about in the book, but how the reader 00:12:49.660 --> 00:12:55.240 or listener will be engaged and how we set our audience's expectations upfront 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:56.830 can really make a big difference. 00:12:57.315 --> 00:13:00.285 One of the things that frustrates me so much is speakers or people 00:13:00.285 --> 00:13:02.505 who run meetings who start by saying, I want this to be very 00:13:02.505 --> 00:13:04.455 engaging and get you all involved. 00:13:04.455 --> 00:13:06.615 And then they talk at you for 45 minutes. 00:13:06.615 --> 00:13:11.295 What you do in your books, and in this example, is you get us engaged from the 00:13:11.295 --> 00:13:13.755 get go, and that brings us along with you. 00:13:14.055 --> 00:13:16.185 I wanna explore some concepts in your new book. 00:13:16.575 --> 00:13:21.345 You talk about how we can break free from the inertia that keeps us doing 00:13:21.345 --> 00:13:23.715 the same things we've always done. 00:13:24.069 --> 00:13:27.850 In essence, you suggest we find leverage points that help us break 00:13:27.850 --> 00:13:32.380 these patterns or habits or just the way it's always been approach. 00:13:32.650 --> 00:13:36.610 Can you explain what leverage points are and provide some examples and 00:13:36.610 --> 00:13:40.560 talk about how we can actually use them to affect the change we want? 00:13:41.170 --> 00:13:45.060 Dan Heath: Leverage points are an absolute core theme of the book, and they are 00:13:45.060 --> 00:13:50.010 defined as places where a little bit of effort yields a disproportionate return. 00:13:50.400 --> 00:13:54.150 Because in complex systems, we can't fix everything at once. 00:13:54.450 --> 00:13:56.130 We can't fix most things. 00:13:56.130 --> 00:14:00.720 We have to place our bets, and so about half the book is dedicated to how do 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:05.250 you find these elusive, magical leverage points where a little bit goes a long way. 00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:08.280 I want to tell, most of the book is organizational. 00:14:08.280 --> 00:14:10.080 So let me just say that explicitly. 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:12.540 I don't want to give people the wrong impression, but I want to tell 00:14:12.540 --> 00:14:16.110 a personal story 'cause I think it, it captures the leverage point idea. 00:14:16.530 --> 00:14:19.500 It's a story about a couple's therapist named Laura Heck. 00:14:20.220 --> 00:14:24.180 And so if you just put yourself in her shoes for a second, every day her 00:14:24.180 --> 00:14:30.270 calendar is full of married couples or, or couples on the brink of divorce that are 00:14:30.270 --> 00:14:32.130 at the worst ebb of their relationship. 00:14:32.280 --> 00:14:33.240 Everything is wrong. 00:14:33.330 --> 00:14:35.970 They may hate each other, they may resent each other. 00:14:36.300 --> 00:14:37.800 There are a million things wrong. 00:14:37.800 --> 00:14:43.200 The history goes back for years, and you see them for one hour a week out of 168. 00:14:43.860 --> 00:14:47.640 Talk about not being able to change much of the equation, right? 00:14:47.790 --> 00:14:49.890 You have to find a leverage point. 00:14:49.890 --> 00:14:54.749 How else could you possibly affect something as fraught as a marriage 00:14:54.749 --> 00:14:56.550 on the cusp of divorce in one hour? 00:14:56.850 --> 00:14:58.410 So Laura Heck does this thing. 00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:02.010 She has this activity, she calls sticky note appreciations. 00:15:02.010 --> 00:15:06.510 And the idea is you put a sticky note pad by your toothbrush holder in the 00:15:06.510 --> 00:15:09.930 bathroom and as you brush your teeth, 'cause you're, you know, you're gonna 00:15:09.930 --> 00:15:12.030 be doing that twice a day and you got nothing else to do while you're 00:15:12.030 --> 00:15:16.800 brushing, you just pick up a pen, you write down something that your partner 00:15:16.800 --> 00:15:18.450 did that you appreciated that day. 00:15:18.630 --> 00:15:22.110 It might be something quite small like, thanks for making coffee this morning, or 00:15:22.470 --> 00:15:24.720 thanks for talking to John about college. 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.390 He really appreciates your perspective, whatever it is. 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.090 And then you put it on the mirror for your partner to find. 00:15:30.630 --> 00:15:36.630 And she says, the point of this activity is really not to give those little 00:15:36.630 --> 00:15:39.569 bursts of happiness that we all get when someone says something nice about us, 00:15:39.569 --> 00:15:41.459 that's great, but it's not the point. 00:15:41.670 --> 00:15:49.079 The point, as she said, was to build a lens where you start to scan your 00:15:49.079 --> 00:15:53.100 partner's behavior for the positive things instead of what has become an 00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:55.915 instinctive negative approach, right? 00:15:56.064 --> 00:15:58.465 The reason you're in therapy is because now when you look at your 00:15:58.465 --> 00:16:01.944 partner, you see the conflict and you see the disappointments, 00:16:01.944 --> 00:16:03.295 and you see the betrayals. 00:16:03.805 --> 00:16:06.505 And so this little silly, sticky note activity is a way of saying, 00:16:06.505 --> 00:16:10.645 wait a second, there's positive there too if we're alert for it. 00:16:10.645 --> 00:16:11.995 If we're conscious about it. 00:16:12.355 --> 00:16:17.040 And so with that one hour a week, back to the idea of leverage points, she is 00:16:17.040 --> 00:16:21.240 slowly transforming the way they see each other in a way that could open the 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:23.400 door to bring the relationship back. 00:16:23.400 --> 00:16:25.530 And I just, I admire that approach so much. 00:16:26.310 --> 00:16:30.660 Matt Abrahams: So it's finding these key moments or opportunities 00:16:30.750 --> 00:16:33.000 that can really bring big change. 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.000 So it's not that you're writing something on a sticky note while 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.970 you're frothing at the mouth brushing your teeth, it's the fact that you're 00:16:39.180 --> 00:16:43.050 changing your perspective in that moment that might itself become a habit. 00:16:43.050 --> 00:16:46.355 And we can look for those points in both our personal and our professional lives. 00:16:46.470 --> 00:16:48.780 So this notion of leverage points is important. 00:16:50.250 --> 00:16:53.610 Something else you talk about is the idea of wasted resources 00:16:53.610 --> 00:16:55.350 that happen in organizations. 00:16:55.590 --> 00:16:58.830 Can you share with us what you mean by wasted resources and what are some 00:16:58.830 --> 00:17:03.810 ways that we can make those resources not wasted to really leverage how they 00:17:03.810 --> 00:17:05.550 can help us to use the other concept? 00:17:06.090 --> 00:17:10.740 Dan Heath: So this is the second half of Reset is the first half is devoted 00:17:10.740 --> 00:17:14.550 to what are the leverage points, which is really about aim, like where do you 00:17:14.610 --> 00:17:16.319 aim if you're trying to change things. 00:17:16.560 --> 00:17:20.115 And then the second half is about if you want to push in a new direction, 00:17:20.115 --> 00:17:21.765 you have to have fuel to do it. 00:17:22.095 --> 00:17:23.505 And that means resources. 00:17:23.925 --> 00:17:27.135 And then everybody freaks out 'cause well, we don't have extra resources. 00:17:27.555 --> 00:17:30.645 And so the departure point of the second half is what if you need 00:17:30.645 --> 00:17:34.575 resources to push in your new direction for change, but you can't just bring 00:17:34.575 --> 00:17:36.225 resources off the sidelines, right? 00:17:36.225 --> 00:17:39.825 You don't have just satchels of cash standing by for new projects. 00:17:40.125 --> 00:17:44.955 And so one of the places where you can quote unquote harvest resources is waste. 00:17:45.255 --> 00:17:48.405 Waste is usually talked about in the context of efficiency. 00:17:48.735 --> 00:17:53.235 Like you want your factory to hum along at 99.9% utilization or whatever. 00:17:53.535 --> 00:17:58.590 In this context, I'm thinking of waste as if we can stop doing the things that 00:17:58.590 --> 00:18:02.970 don't add value for the customer, which is a classic definition of waste from 00:18:02.970 --> 00:18:08.880 uh, Taiichi Ohno, then we can reuse that effort, that material in a new way. 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:14.565 Now, to get away from waste for a second, I think the most important fuel 00:18:14.685 --> 00:18:16.515 for any change effort is motivation. 00:18:16.815 --> 00:18:22.575 Like the entire change war will be fought on the battlefield of motivation. 00:18:22.875 --> 00:18:26.925 And so in the book, I present this framework, and I think it may be the 00:18:26.925 --> 00:18:31.935 simplest change framework ever created, but I stand by it and it's the idea 00:18:31.935 --> 00:18:37.935 that if you imagine a Venn diagram in your mind, and so one circle is what's 00:18:37.935 --> 00:18:40.754 required for us to succeed at change? 00:18:41.085 --> 00:18:44.774 The bundle of activities and goals that we're gonna need to get to 00:18:44.774 --> 00:18:46.485 some new place, what's required? 00:18:46.815 --> 00:18:51.675 And then there's an intersecting circle of what's desired today? 00:18:51.735 --> 00:18:55.215 So in other words, all of the people that you work with, your colleagues, 00:18:55.215 --> 00:18:58.755 your direct reports, they have ideas about how to make things better. 00:18:58.755 --> 00:19:02.025 If they were made boss for the day, they'd all say, well, we're gonna do this. 00:19:02.025 --> 00:19:05.775 We're gonna do this, we're gonna, in other words, there is latent motivation 00:19:05.775 --> 00:19:07.725 in the system that needs to be tapped. 00:19:08.025 --> 00:19:11.915 Wherever there is an intersection of what's required and what's desired, 00:19:11.975 --> 00:19:13.985 that's where you start the change effort. 00:19:14.165 --> 00:19:17.645 And I say it's the simplest thing ever recorded because a lot of times in 00:19:17.645 --> 00:19:21.814 change efforts we fall into this trap of immediately going to persuasion, 00:19:22.145 --> 00:19:25.385 like, I've gotta get people to want what I want, or else change is gonna fail. 00:19:25.385 --> 00:19:26.495 But hang on a second. 00:19:26.495 --> 00:19:27.935 It's not that that's a bad idea. 00:19:28.235 --> 00:19:32.794 Of course persuasion is a good idea, but before you even get to persuasion, if 00:19:32.794 --> 00:19:36.965 you can just tap and unleash the energy that's already there, you've already 00:19:36.965 --> 00:19:39.095 catapulted yourself toward success. 00:19:39.735 --> 00:19:43.365 Matt Abrahams: That model, although quite simple, I have seen play out in my own 00:19:43.365 --> 00:19:45.225 life, in my relationship with my kids. 00:19:45.345 --> 00:19:48.675 'Cause a lot of what I find myself doing is trying to persuade them. 00:19:48.825 --> 00:19:52.395 When I've gotten lucky and really tapped into that latent desire and 00:19:52.395 --> 00:19:55.575 see their ideas and passion, that's when things have really gotten going. 00:19:55.995 --> 00:19:58.035 Dan Heath: It, it just reminds me, something that literally happened this 00:19:58.035 --> 00:20:01.785 weekend and I'd, I'd hadn't coded it that way, but I see that it is now. 00:20:02.055 --> 00:20:05.535 I see that it's the Venn diagram in, in my own mind, I was trying to get 00:20:05.535 --> 00:20:10.365 my young daughter to go with me on a walk and I think to a child, like 00:20:10.395 --> 00:20:15.465 going on a walk with dad is just like way down Maslow's hierarchy. 00:20:15.705 --> 00:20:20.055 And then I realized she likes to get this weird iced tea, it's called, uh, 00:20:20.085 --> 00:20:24.375 iced fireball from this coffee shop, that's a perfect distance for us to walk. 00:20:24.375 --> 00:20:28.215 And so I was like, Hey, you want to go and get an iced fireball and 00:20:28.215 --> 00:20:29.895 immediately she was like, oh yeah, I'm in. 00:20:30.465 --> 00:20:31.395 And so it's okay. 00:20:31.395 --> 00:20:35.625 That's what was desired, that was the latent desire in the system, and 00:20:35.625 --> 00:20:38.865 there was overlap and shame on me for not getting there immediately. 00:20:39.570 --> 00:20:42.659 Matt Abrahams: I love this idea of trying to find waste. 00:20:42.659 --> 00:20:46.110 In other words, where there's this potential, it's like potential energy 00:20:46.110 --> 00:20:47.550 and you just have to tap into it. 00:20:47.850 --> 00:20:48.870 Dan Heath: That's a great phrase for it. 00:20:48.870 --> 00:20:54.209 It is potential energy and we spend so much time browbeating people with the 00:20:54.209 --> 00:20:57.929 vision of change and get on board, and I'm trying to get you to buy in and, and we 00:20:57.929 --> 00:21:02.260 just never ask the basic question, what would you want today if it was your plan? 00:21:02.410 --> 00:21:06.730 And look, the obvious, I think, objection to the Venn diagram thing is it's never 00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:08.379 gonna be a perfect overlap, right? 00:21:08.379 --> 00:21:11.800 It's never gonna be just a perfect coincidence where everything 00:21:11.800 --> 00:21:14.530 that you'll have to do for change corresponds perfectly to 00:21:14.530 --> 00:21:15.879 everything that people want today. 00:21:16.060 --> 00:21:20.680 But, and this is another key theme in the book, the engine of change is progress. 00:21:21.755 --> 00:21:24.215 And progress changes minds. 00:21:24.815 --> 00:21:28.235 People start out skeptical of change 'cause they don't think it's gonna work. 00:21:28.565 --> 00:21:30.365 They don't think it's gonna make their lives better. 00:21:30.365 --> 00:21:32.045 They, they think it's just gonna be a nuisance. 00:21:32.045 --> 00:21:35.495 And then when they start to see that boulder that's obstructed your 00:21:35.495 --> 00:21:38.495 path for so long, when they start to see it inch in a new direction, 00:21:38.555 --> 00:21:39.965 it makes them feel differently. 00:21:40.025 --> 00:21:43.835 And so then new motivation comes off the sidelines that was sparked 00:21:43.835 --> 00:21:47.375 by the progress that they could see as a result of that initial push. 00:21:48.195 --> 00:21:52.784 Matt Abrahams: I love how you have taken what is a very dry topic 00:21:52.784 --> 00:21:56.865 of systems and systems change, and really found two key ideas. 00:21:56.865 --> 00:21:59.370 This notion of motivation and progress. 00:21:59.370 --> 00:22:03.480 Very psychological concepts that we can apply to all the systems we find. 00:22:03.840 --> 00:22:08.010 We both write, we both do podcasting, but we do a whole bunch of other things too. 00:22:08.310 --> 00:22:11.879 And there's systems that surround everything we choose to do, in terms 00:22:11.879 --> 00:22:15.360 of the messages we craft, how we do it, when we do it, the choices we make. 00:22:15.780 --> 00:22:21.304 What advice do you have for exploring and maximizing the impact systems 00:22:21.304 --> 00:22:24.514 have or changing the systems to help us be more efficient? 00:22:24.784 --> 00:22:27.034 How do systems play out in what we do? 00:22:27.844 --> 00:22:31.564 Dan Heath: So I had this weird moment when one of the stories I was chasing 00:22:31.564 --> 00:22:33.365 boomeranged back to my own life. 00:22:33.665 --> 00:22:37.655 I was researching a story about the San Francisco 49ers, and there's a guy named 00:22:37.655 --> 00:22:41.495 Moon Javaid, one of the top executives that was in charge of the fan experience 00:22:41.495 --> 00:22:42.875 of people coming out to the games. 00:22:43.205 --> 00:22:47.080 And at one point, he and his boss start asking themselves, Hey, we 00:22:47.080 --> 00:22:51.190 take these surveys of fans and then whatever they're complaining 00:22:51.190 --> 00:22:52.960 about, we fix it for the next game. 00:22:53.320 --> 00:22:56.650 We don't have that many games in a season, so it, it's slow. 00:22:56.650 --> 00:23:00.910 Like, could we ever imagine getting feedback within the game 00:23:00.910 --> 00:23:02.410 so we can fix things faster? 00:23:02.710 --> 00:23:06.610 And so that's a theme in the book, is this idea of accelerating learning, 00:23:06.970 --> 00:23:11.370 which is a way, in essence of marshaling more resources to push in 00:23:11.370 --> 00:23:13.170 our change direction, back to that idea. 00:23:13.530 --> 00:23:16.380 So anyway, Moon Javaid has this epiphany when he is in the airport 00:23:16.380 --> 00:23:20.250 one day and he sees people using those happy or not terminals where 00:23:20.250 --> 00:23:24.720 you punch a green smiley face or a red frowny face, and he's like, oh my God. 00:23:25.095 --> 00:23:26.385 That could work for us. 00:23:26.595 --> 00:23:30.225 And so fast forward in the story, he becomes a pilot customer for happy or not. 00:23:30.225 --> 00:23:36.255 They put out 150 terminals by bathrooms, by hotdog stands, by concessions. 00:23:36.555 --> 00:23:41.025 And so if they get like a certain density of red frowny faces in a certain period of 00:23:41.025 --> 00:23:42.945 time, they know ah-ha, something's wrong. 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:47.730 There's a clogged toilet at A8, or the concession stand, they're, they're outta 00:23:47.730 --> 00:23:52.740 hotdog buns, and so they can rush within the game and fix the problems far faster. 00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:56.190 Now it takes minutes to fix a problem instead of a week. 00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:59.700 So it's this huge victory from accelerating learning. 00:23:59.910 --> 00:24:04.965 So I started to think about that story and I was like, how could I do that in 00:24:04.965 --> 00:24:07.335 my writing, which seems weird, right? 00:24:07.335 --> 00:24:09.645 I mean, where am I gonna put a happy or not terminal, right? 00:24:10.755 --> 00:24:15.735 And then later it occurred to me I could learn from Agile, the discipline used by 00:24:15.735 --> 00:24:19.605 many software and design firms, where you do something and you get some customer 00:24:19.605 --> 00:24:22.845 feedback, and then you tweak it and, and iterate and get some more feedback. 00:24:23.145 --> 00:24:24.285 Rapid prototyping. 00:24:24.285 --> 00:24:24.705 That's it. 00:24:24.735 --> 00:24:28.065 And so I said, what would it look like if I wrote that way? 00:24:28.395 --> 00:24:30.285 And so I did this thing I'd never done before. 00:24:30.285 --> 00:24:31.305 This is my sixth book. 00:24:31.305 --> 00:24:34.185 This is the only book I've even close to use this process for. 00:24:34.485 --> 00:24:37.065 The version I turned into the publisher was version 6. 00:24:37.205 --> 00:24:42.250 So I had 5 full rounds of reader feedback in the meantime. 00:24:42.490 --> 00:24:44.740 The first was so crude, it wasn't even in writing. 00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:47.709 It was just me on video, like pontificating about different 00:24:47.709 --> 00:24:49.990 topics, and I was just curious what would resonate with people. 00:24:50.290 --> 00:24:55.750 And it was so different and so fun, and it gave me such a richer flow of the 00:24:55.750 --> 00:24:58.899 readers thinking that, I guess people would be the judge, but I really think 00:24:58.899 --> 00:25:01.030 it bore fruit in the final product. 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:04.600 However good or bad Reset is today, let me assure you, it would've 00:25:04.600 --> 00:25:08.145 been a lot worse had I not gotten 5 rounds of reader feedback, 00:25:08.745 --> 00:25:12.495 Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate you sharing how you can explore 00:25:12.495 --> 00:25:14.925 the systems that you're part of and look to change them. 00:25:15.135 --> 00:25:18.945 What you just described is something I teach is minimally viable communication. 00:25:18.945 --> 00:25:22.475 We take the same principles from minimally viable product design, 00:25:22.475 --> 00:25:24.004 Agile development and apply them. 00:25:24.245 --> 00:25:26.915 But rapid prototyping is critical, I think, to getting 00:25:27.185 --> 00:25:28.774 any message out in the world. 00:25:28.774 --> 00:25:34.054 And the meta message of what you said is look at the systems that you exist in 00:25:34.054 --> 00:25:37.355 and then see if there are ways that you can adjust and adapt them to help you. 00:25:37.895 --> 00:25:40.385 I'd like to take this notion of communication one step further. 00:25:40.625 --> 00:25:44.945 In these organizations, in these collectives where they leverage the 00:25:44.945 --> 00:25:49.774 tools that you teach and write about, what are your thoughts about how they 00:25:50.139 --> 00:25:54.930 communicate to the teams themselves or across the organization about what 00:25:54.930 --> 00:26:00.450 they're doing, and help them provide the motivation and demonstrate the 00:26:00.450 --> 00:26:02.220 progress that we talked about before? 00:26:02.220 --> 00:26:06.330 So it's one thing to do it, but I can imagine a big leverage point is 00:26:06.330 --> 00:26:10.050 the way you communicate what you've done to keep the momentum going. 00:26:10.320 --> 00:26:13.710 Any insights into what makes for effective communication about 00:26:13.710 --> 00:26:14.850 the progress you're making? 00:26:15.810 --> 00:26:19.290 Dan Heath: Yes, and in fact, the message was so clear, this came out of 00:26:19.290 --> 00:26:23.219 a conversation I had with the former CEO of Home Depot named Frank Blake. 00:26:23.699 --> 00:26:26.669 It's so clear you could put it on a bumper sticker, and Blake said, you 00:26:26.669 --> 00:26:29.520 get what you celebrate, full stop. 00:26:29.550 --> 00:26:31.080 You get what you celebrate. 00:26:31.229 --> 00:26:33.870 But Frank Blake lived that mantra. 00:26:33.990 --> 00:26:37.679 He would spend part of every Sunday afternoon, I mean, the CEO one of the 00:26:37.679 --> 00:26:41.939 world's biggest companies spent his Sunday writing individual thank you letters 00:26:41.939 --> 00:26:46.545 to people on his team, not just in some generic atta boy, atta girl way, he would 00:26:46.545 --> 00:26:48.465 highlight specific things that they did. 00:26:48.735 --> 00:26:52.005 I heard about the way you dealt with that customer in, in North 00:26:52.005 --> 00:26:53.085 Georgia, blah, blah, blah. 00:26:53.685 --> 00:26:57.195 One of the things that stuck with me was he told this incredible story. 00:26:57.705 --> 00:27:02.625 So one of his strategic missions was to improve customer service at Home Depot. 00:27:03.105 --> 00:27:05.415 He's got over a hundred thousand employees. 00:27:05.445 --> 00:27:06.555 How do you change that? 00:27:07.425 --> 00:27:11.235 And at one point he had all the store managers together at a 00:27:11.235 --> 00:27:14.070 conference in Vegas, and he had an opportunity to speak to them. 00:27:14.370 --> 00:27:20.580 And he chose to tell one story about one cashier that was from a store in Georgia. 00:27:21.270 --> 00:27:23.760 And so he is on stage and he says, we had this cashier, who's been 00:27:23.760 --> 00:27:28.320 with us for years, and one day she had an older gentleman come 00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:29.700 up with a cart full of lumber. 00:27:30.615 --> 00:27:33.525 And she asked him if he'd found everything he needed okay. 00:27:33.525 --> 00:27:35.025 And he said, yes, I did. 00:27:36.015 --> 00:27:38.745 And then she was just gonna make small talk to be nice. 00:27:38.745 --> 00:27:41.595 And she said, well, if you don't mind me asking, what's your project? 00:27:41.595 --> 00:27:42.375 What are you working on? 00:27:43.035 --> 00:27:49.815 And the old man stopped and paused and he said, since you asked, my grandson 00:27:49.815 --> 00:27:54.285 passed away recently and I've decided that I wanted to build his casket. 00:27:54.825 --> 00:27:59.340 And the cashier immediately said, sir, we're so sorry for your loss, 00:27:59.340 --> 00:28:02.550 and don't even think about pulling out your wallet, this one's on us. 00:28:03.180 --> 00:28:05.580 And so Frank Blake said when he told that story, you could have 00:28:05.580 --> 00:28:07.570 heard a pin drop in the room. 00:28:08.100 --> 00:28:12.075 And what he was after with that story is, number one, it's obviously recognition 00:28:12.075 --> 00:28:15.975 for the particular cashier, but the significance more broadly than that 00:28:15.975 --> 00:28:22.004 was he was reshaping their mental model of what good customer service is like. 00:28:22.665 --> 00:28:28.455 You hear a lot of, you've gotta do the 5 S's, smile and blah, blah, blah, and all 00:28:28.455 --> 00:28:32.775 this kind of generic stuff that ends up in employee rule books, and he's saying, no. 00:28:33.135 --> 00:28:37.500 This woman not only just gave stuff away for free, which is mind blowing enough, 00:28:37.590 --> 00:28:39.030 she didn't even check with anybody. 00:28:39.179 --> 00:28:42.960 She didn't check with the supervisor to ask whether it was okay to break protocol. 00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:46.470 It was just instantly she knew what the human thing to do would be. 00:28:47.040 --> 00:28:51.179 And that's what Frank Blake is signaling to people, is if we want to be better 00:28:51.179 --> 00:28:55.695 at customer service, we need more of that ethic, and so that's what he 00:28:55.695 --> 00:28:58.455 means by you get what you celebrate. 00:28:59.415 --> 00:29:03.225 Matt Abrahams: You've done a nice job of tying back to the power of story signal, 00:29:03.255 --> 00:29:07.245 not just an emotional experience that you connect with your audience, but it 00:29:07.245 --> 00:29:11.445 also shares what you aspire to be, right? 00:29:11.445 --> 00:29:14.325 And what can be, without just itemizing and listing. 00:29:14.955 --> 00:29:16.365 We've talked a lot about your writing. 00:29:16.365 --> 00:29:19.695 I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about your podcasting, something I find 00:29:19.695 --> 00:29:21.165 very near and dear to my heart. 00:29:21.225 --> 00:29:25.845 You host the podcast, What It's Like To Be, you've done lots of interviews 00:29:25.845 --> 00:29:27.975 with lots of really interesting folk. 00:29:27.975 --> 00:29:31.815 I'm curious, is there one thing or two that you've taken away 00:29:31.815 --> 00:29:33.265 that has impacted your life? 00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:37.110 I certainly have learned a lot from my guests that has fundamentally 00:29:37.110 --> 00:29:38.580 changed some of the things I do. 00:29:38.760 --> 00:29:41.730 I'm curious, is there something that's impacted your life from 00:29:41.730 --> 00:29:43.020 somebody you've interviewed? 00:29:43.530 --> 00:29:47.520 Dan Heath: So for listeners, just quickly, the show, the conceit is 00:29:47.520 --> 00:29:51.460 that in every episode I interview someone from a different profession. 00:29:51.830 --> 00:29:56.745 A homicide detective or a daycare owner or an NBA referee. 00:29:57.045 --> 00:29:59.805 And I just asked them a thousand nosy questions about what it's like 00:29:59.805 --> 00:30:02.325 to do what they do and what makes them happy and what makes them 00:30:02.325 --> 00:30:03.825 mad, and who do they fight with. 00:30:04.305 --> 00:30:07.785 And so this was a departure for me because, as we've talked 00:30:07.785 --> 00:30:11.490 about, when I'm writing these books, my books are not poetry. 00:30:11.520 --> 00:30:12.840 They're not literature. 00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:16.830 They're intended to help people do specific things to make their lives 00:30:16.830 --> 00:30:20.700 or their work better, and so I have this very practical minded hat on. 00:30:20.700 --> 00:30:23.520 If I'm interviewing someone for a book, I'm listening for, what can I 00:30:23.520 --> 00:30:26.520 learn from Matt that I might be able to help a hundred other people with. 00:30:26.910 --> 00:30:30.990 On the podcast though, I just kind of want to walk in their shoes. 00:30:31.110 --> 00:30:36.490 I talked to two married truck drivers who do long haul shifts together. 00:30:36.669 --> 00:30:40.419 I mean, they might be together for 6 weeks in a row on the road, and their 00:30:40.419 --> 00:30:44.320 lives are governed by 3 different clocks that prescribe their behavior 00:30:44.320 --> 00:30:47.365 and they have to obsess about where they're gonna park, 'cause parking's 00:30:47.370 --> 00:30:49.090 a huge deal when you have a big rig. 00:30:49.449 --> 00:30:51.059 And I talked to a cattle rancher. 00:30:51.329 --> 00:30:54.250 And some of the things she has to worry about are poisonous weeds. 00:30:54.250 --> 00:30:56.710 The cows will eat the weeds and get sick, so she's fighting this 00:30:56.710 --> 00:30:58.480 nonstop battle against the weeds. 00:30:58.510 --> 00:31:01.780 And mountain lions will occasionally come in and try to eat her cattle 00:31:01.780 --> 00:31:05.770 and so she has a mountain lion hunter that she can call like on speed 00:31:05.770 --> 00:31:06.710 dial to come out and deal with it. 00:31:06.910 --> 00:31:10.300 And I find that there's no like direct application. 00:31:10.540 --> 00:31:13.360 I just think that there is a lot of power and empathy. 00:31:13.420 --> 00:31:19.540 Like I think if we can understand our fellow humans better and what they think 00:31:19.540 --> 00:31:24.150 about and what brings them joy and what gives them a sense of purpose, I think 00:31:24.150 --> 00:31:28.290 it helps us appreciate them more, and it seems like now is one of those times when 00:31:28.290 --> 00:31:30.425 we need that appreciation of difference. 00:31:31.260 --> 00:31:34.290 Matt Abrahams: It sounds to me like a lesson you've learned or something 00:31:34.290 --> 00:31:37.860 that motivated you to do this was this idea of empathy and curiosity. 00:31:37.860 --> 00:31:41.220 There's a really powerful concoction that gets made when you combine those 00:31:41.220 --> 00:31:45.330 two together, and what your podcast does is really helps us through your 00:31:45.330 --> 00:31:49.410 curiosity and through your empathy to learn a lot, and, and I appreciate that. 00:31:49.515 --> 00:31:52.575 Well, before we end, I like to ask three questions. 00:31:52.575 --> 00:31:55.305 One I create just for you, and the other two are similar 00:31:55.305 --> 00:31:56.475 across everybody I interview. 00:31:56.475 --> 00:31:57.825 Are you up for these questions? 00:31:57.855 --> 00:31:58.395 Dan Heath: I'm ready. 00:31:58.395 --> 00:31:59.025 Let's do this. 00:31:59.295 --> 00:31:59.715 Matt Abrahams: All right. 00:31:59.715 --> 00:32:02.745 One of the books that you wrote that really also had a big impact 00:32:02.745 --> 00:32:03.850 on me was The Power of Moments. 00:32:04.875 --> 00:32:10.545 I'm curious, is there anything you do in your personal life to really spark some 00:32:10.545 --> 00:32:14.264 moments maybe for your family, your kids, your friends, is there something that 00:32:14.264 --> 00:32:20.264 you took from that work that you do that helps you and those you know and love? 00:32:20.685 --> 00:32:21.525 Dan Heath: Absolutely. 00:32:21.555 --> 00:32:27.375 The Power Moments is a book about the disproportionate power of specific 00:32:27.375 --> 00:32:32.520 moments in our memories of experiences, the way that, if you think about a, a 00:32:32.520 --> 00:32:36.990 family or a personal vacation from three or four years ago, you don't load up 00:32:36.990 --> 00:32:39.750 the video of that experience in your mind and play it end to end, right? 00:32:39.750 --> 00:32:40.950 A lot of it dissolves. 00:32:41.385 --> 00:32:45.105 And what you're left with are the most significant moments, or in the 00:32:45.105 --> 00:32:46.815 parlance of the book, at the peaks. 00:32:47.205 --> 00:32:50.085 And, and so the kind of big message of the book is we can 00:32:50.085 --> 00:32:52.155 be the authors of these peaks. 00:32:52.335 --> 00:32:55.335 Sometimes they just happen by happenstance, but we can 00:32:55.335 --> 00:32:56.475 be intentional about it. 00:32:56.835 --> 00:33:00.615 And so like a couple of things that I've learned from readers, actually, 00:33:01.005 --> 00:33:03.885 I had this one guy come up to me at a conference and say he'd read the book 00:33:03.885 --> 00:33:05.415 and he'd tried something with his kids. 00:33:05.775 --> 00:33:08.295 He called it a perfect day exercise. 00:33:08.385 --> 00:33:09.735 So he had young kids like I do. 00:33:10.125 --> 00:33:15.735 He said, I want you to draw up your perfect day on paper, like from when 00:33:15.735 --> 00:33:17.055 you wake up to when you go to bed. 00:33:17.835 --> 00:33:20.805 And if you don't fill it with fantastical things like, oh, we're 00:33:20.805 --> 00:33:23.835 gonna fly to the moon for a picnic or something, if, if you keep it 00:33:23.835 --> 00:33:27.015 real like your mom and I are really gonna try to make this happen, we're 00:33:27.015 --> 00:33:28.485 gonna bring your perfect day to life. 00:33:28.935 --> 00:33:30.255 But he made them draw it out. 00:33:30.255 --> 00:33:32.835 He wanted them to put some thought into it and they had to put together 00:33:32.835 --> 00:33:35.265 an agenda with times and, and events. 00:33:35.685 --> 00:33:38.205 And I was just so captivated by that idea. 00:33:38.205 --> 00:33:40.125 I immediately stole it for my own kids. 00:33:40.125 --> 00:33:42.465 And what happened with his kids was exactly what happened with 00:33:42.465 --> 00:33:46.455 mine, which is you would think that kids would be grandiose and 00:33:46.455 --> 00:33:48.345 they'd wanna do crazy things. 00:33:48.345 --> 00:33:49.515 They'd wanna spend a lot of money. 00:33:49.515 --> 00:33:53.925 And instead, it was the most like heartwarming set of things. 00:33:54.254 --> 00:33:57.915 It was like my younger daughter wanted to get up and have eggs and 00:33:57.915 --> 00:34:00.615 bacon and cinnamon rolls, which is what we have every Sunday. 00:34:00.645 --> 00:34:02.955 It's not like that was a weird or unusual request. 00:34:03.284 --> 00:34:05.355 And then she wanted to take a bath in the morning. 00:34:05.534 --> 00:34:09.255 She wanted to take another bath at night, and then she wanted to watch such and 00:34:09.255 --> 00:34:13.125 such a movie, and she wanted to have a play date with such and such friend. 00:34:13.125 --> 00:34:16.215 And it was striking to me that I think sometimes as parents, 00:34:16.215 --> 00:34:17.804 we may overcomplicate things. 00:34:18.314 --> 00:34:21.674 If I think about how do I create a moment for my kids, maybe I'm thinking, 00:34:22.185 --> 00:34:25.759 oh, we need a bounce house, or I need to have a rent a pony come out and, 00:34:25.844 --> 00:34:29.654 and if you just ask them, it turns out that's not what perfect means. 00:34:29.654 --> 00:34:31.514 Perfect means something quite different. 00:34:31.964 --> 00:34:37.455 And so I've really enjoyed that aspect of moment creation, just trusting 00:34:37.875 --> 00:34:41.610 the people that you care about to articulate what perfect means. 00:34:42.150 --> 00:34:43.740 Matt Abrahams: That's a really powerful lesson, and thank 00:34:43.740 --> 00:34:45.630 you, and how sweet to do that. 00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:49.380 And sometimes the most powerful moment could be one that somebody 00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:51.180 else suggests and not us. 00:34:51.690 --> 00:34:55.980 Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:34:56.790 --> 00:34:59.880 Dan Heath: I would say the author David Foster Wallace. 00:35:00.150 --> 00:35:01.290 I'm a huge fan of his. 00:35:01.860 --> 00:35:04.590 And I think I might be the only person who's more a fan of his 00:35:04.590 --> 00:35:06.060 nonfiction than of his fiction. 00:35:06.060 --> 00:35:09.810 He's best known as a novelist and wrote the great book Infinite Jest, which is 00:35:09.810 --> 00:35:11.550 about 20 pounds if you carry around. 00:35:11.940 --> 00:35:16.920 But he also wrote these just amazing essays, like one of his essay collections 00:35:17.720 --> 00:35:22.035 is called A Supposedly Fun Thing I'd Never Do Again, about a cruise that he took and 00:35:22.035 --> 00:35:26.355 he's, he's kind of an antisocial person, so it was just hilarious to hear him riff 00:35:26.355 --> 00:35:28.095 on what it was like to go on a cruise. 00:35:28.365 --> 00:35:35.235 And what I admire about his style is he just has this almost limitless curiosity 00:35:35.325 --> 00:35:43.215 about everything, about psychology, about business about social norms and why they 00:35:43.215 --> 00:35:48.915 exist, and so he'll just follow these kind of spiraling wormholes of curiosity. 00:35:49.185 --> 00:35:54.495 I admire the way that, that he can get a point across and has 00:35:54.765 --> 00:35:56.895 complete control of language. 00:35:57.134 --> 00:36:00.314 He can throw out words you've never even seen in your life and then 00:36:00.314 --> 00:36:03.674 the next sentence is just full of the most up to the moment slang. 00:36:03.674 --> 00:36:06.105 Like he just has, he has the full repertoire. 00:36:06.705 --> 00:36:12.645 Matt Abrahams: I appreciate that, and I love that you respect somebody who has 00:36:12.645 --> 00:36:14.984 a way with words, but also storytelling. 00:36:15.495 --> 00:36:16.334 Final question. 00:36:16.875 --> 00:36:21.615 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:36:22.005 --> 00:36:23.925 Dan Heath: Okay, the recipe. 00:36:23.985 --> 00:36:25.605 All right, three steps. 00:36:25.605 --> 00:36:26.355 Let's do this. 00:36:26.475 --> 00:36:29.565 Number one, know what the most important thing you need to 00:36:29.565 --> 00:36:31.065 leave the audience with is. 00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:34.890 What's the core message in Made to Stick terms? 00:36:34.950 --> 00:36:38.370 Know your core message, and I think the reason why people don't do that, 00:36:38.370 --> 00:36:41.460 even though it sounds commonsensical, is because people, when you start 00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:44.580 putting the presentation together or the memo, it's like you kind of wanna 00:36:44.580 --> 00:36:47.819 show off all the things you've learned and all these insights you have, and 00:36:47.819 --> 00:36:49.980 you just get greedy with your ideas. 00:36:50.855 --> 00:36:54.545 But if we're gonna be respectful of the audience and the way memories decay, 00:36:54.575 --> 00:36:57.995 like if we wanna have one thing that endures in their head three weeks in the 00:36:57.995 --> 00:37:01.205 future after the point of communication, like what would that one thing be? 00:37:01.535 --> 00:37:06.145 Second is, highlight the aspects of that one thing that are uncommonsensical, 00:37:07.535 --> 00:37:09.005 common sense does not stick. 00:37:09.605 --> 00:37:13.355 Common sense by definition is something that's already stuck. 00:37:13.685 --> 00:37:17.129 And if somebody hears something that sounds like common sense, they're just 00:37:17.129 --> 00:37:21.180 gonna ignore it because it in no way reshapes their view of the world or 00:37:21.180 --> 00:37:22.830 their opinions or their perspectives. 00:37:23.160 --> 00:37:26.250 So you've gotta figure out what about your message is uncommon sense. 00:37:26.250 --> 00:37:29.339 And if the answer is it nothing, then you got the wrong core message, right? 00:37:29.339 --> 00:37:31.830 There's something that made you think that core message was important. 00:37:31.830 --> 00:37:35.879 What is it and how does it clash with the way your audience thinks right now? 00:37:36.180 --> 00:37:38.790 And then third, this will come as no surprise for anybody who's 00:37:38.790 --> 00:37:42.029 listened to this interview is find a story to wrap that in. 00:37:42.645 --> 00:37:45.395 So do you want a core message that's uncommonsensical, 00:37:46.575 --> 00:37:48.465 that's wrapped up in a story. 00:37:49.125 --> 00:37:50.115 That's my recipe. 00:37:50.595 --> 00:37:51.195 How'd I do? 00:37:51.825 --> 00:37:53.175 Matt Abrahams: You did great. 00:37:53.175 --> 00:37:57.135 Not just at sharing the three, but at summarizing the three at the end, which 00:37:57.135 --> 00:38:01.635 is what I often do and you've done a reset for me, so I don't have to do that. 00:38:02.175 --> 00:38:06.855 I appreciate Dan, not only your time, but your stories, and for role 00:38:06.855 --> 00:38:11.415 modeling exactly what it is that you teach, not just in your new book 00:38:11.415 --> 00:38:13.155 Reset, but across all your books. 00:38:13.365 --> 00:38:15.705 Thank you for your time and thank you for your insights. 00:38:15.975 --> 00:38:16.935 Dan Heath: Hey, thanks so much, Matt. 00:38:16.935 --> 00:38:17.595 It's been a pleasure. 00:38:19.905 --> 00:38:22.515 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another Rethinks episode of 00:38:22.515 --> 00:38:27.195 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast To learn more from Dan, tune into 00:38:27.195 --> 00:38:29.835 episode 49 with his brother Chip Heath. 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:35.680 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:37.680 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:40.049 With thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:43.710 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:38:43.890 --> 00:38:45.990 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:38:46.200 --> 00:38:49.410 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok. 00:38:49.859 --> 00:38:54.359 You can learn more through our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community. 00:38:54.779 --> 00:38:59.450 There you'll get offers such as our video lessons, learning quests, AMA 00:38:59.730 --> 00:39:03.150 access, book talks, and my AI coach. 00:39:03.420 --> 00:39:05.250 Sign up at 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