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[Electronic beat]

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[Enda:] Welcome to Futures Conversations,

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the Edinburgh Futures Institute podcast 
that showcases

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all the wonderful research taking place
at the Edinburgh Futures Institute.

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Research at the Futures Institute 
is challenge-led and interdisciplinary

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addressing many of the greatest challenges
we face in the world today.

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I'm your host, Enda Delaney,
the Director of Research at the Futures Institute.

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[Electronic beat]

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[Enda:] In this episode, I'm joined 
by Professor Sean Smith.

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Sean is chair of Future Construction
in the School of Engineering and director

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and director of the Center for Future Infrastructure
at the Futures Institute.

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Sean, could you tell us a little bit
about your background, where you grew up,

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who inspired you as a teacher?

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What values were important to your family
and wider social group?-

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[Sean:] I grew up in Edinburgh

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and also Dundee in a small village
called Errol in Perthshire,

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and very much enjoyed the whole idea

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of both of living in a sort of urban
and suburban and rural area.

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So I had the chance to sort of
see all of that.

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And my family were all farmers
by background.

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But I would say probably some key
changes in terms of career path of,

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you know, where was I going, etc.

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I was really struck
by the whole construction

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industry and infrastructure,
how it can change people's lives,

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the opportunity not just be at the desk,
but be out and about visiting sites,

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and also the

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innovations that happen
across that landscape.

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I was very, very fortunate.

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I did my studies at Heriot-Watt
University, my first degree there

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in Building Economics and Quantity Surveying.

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Although I realised that quantity surveying
wasn't for me

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and sort of cost calculations.

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I really enjoyed the whole
architectural technology journey,

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learning about kind of noise
and vibration in structures.

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And very importantly,
we had a couple of lecturers

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who were very innovative,
who worked really closely with industry,

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and they were very kind and took us
sometimes, on some of their projects

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they were doing with industry.

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And I think that inspired me in the end,
when I finished my degree,

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that I would
then focus specifically looking at sort of

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the future of sort of noise
and vibration in structures.

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So that was my first point,
and specifically around construction technologies.-

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[Enda:] I read somewhere that Lego was a key
formative influence.

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I don't know if...

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Can you tell us a bit more about your
your love of Lego, erm, growing up?-

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[Sean:] Well, very much.

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I think for many people
who are in the sector and, and beyond this

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in design and creativity
and things, Lego has played

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an integral part of people's lives
when they were young.

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The chance not just to obviously follow
the build instructions

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and things of what you're building,
but then to innovate and adapt

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and build and design your own structures.

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And I used to take great pride
as a- as a young boy

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I’d run down the stairs and show my mum,
what I’d built with, with something

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that was not meant to be on the box but
[laughs]

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certainly looked and looked quite different.-

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[Enda:] It sounds like that
some of your teachers at Heriot-Watt

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actually inspired you to-
to do what you do today.

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Were there any people in particular,

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or was it just the whole sort
of ethos and environment?-

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[Sean:] I mean, there were several-
several lecturers,

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Hunter Cairns
taught us on Architectural Technology,

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as did David McKenzie, who also taught us
about building acoustics

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and noise and vibration in buildings,
and both had been involved

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in the development of new products
for the construction sector.

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So that in itself, their background,
their knowledge, how much they shared

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with us about their journeys
with some of the products,

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and where they were then being used,
and also some of the testing

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and development they did.

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And I think that was, a trigger point
for me to get interested

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in research and development and R&D.-

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[Enda:] So, within your sort of wider
family and social group,

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was it unusual to go into academia
or into what you do or-

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was that quite- quite normal or, you know? 
Essentially did you stand out,

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or was this a sort of a predestined
pathway for you?-

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[Sean:] Definitely wasn't predestined.

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Certainly, I was one of the first or second
in my kind of family generation,

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if you look across my aunts and uncles,

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of- of my cousins, of people
who went to university,

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and the best advice I had
was that nothing is set in stone.

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And I always carried that thinking,
you will change your mind on things,

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you might change the career path
and I think I've changed mine 2 or 3

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over the period.

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But everything has an inflection point
when it comes back.

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When you think:

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Ah! I remember that particular moment when-
when something changed that made

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you think about that's a different career
path.-

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[Enda:] And so what was your route into academia
and becoming a university professor?-

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[Sean:] Well, initially I came through,
I would say probably the standard route.

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I started my PhD.

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The PhD went part time
when the mathematical models

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we were looking at to predict noise
and vibration in buildings,

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those mathematical models
we could take to any structure,

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all we could change
was the material properties,

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but the actual noise and vibration,
the waveform,

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etcetera, the frequencies, etcetera,
where things occur.

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We can change that
with a mathematical model.

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And so that was very attractive

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to the Ministry of Defence
and the Defence Research Agency.

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They really liked our complex models.

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And so I started a research fellowship,

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working for DERA, the Defence Evaluation
Research Agency for three years

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to predict, vibration in complex
structures for helicopters and aircraft.

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I was very fortunate.

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We had a tremendous mentor
from the Defence Research Agency.

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Sadly, he's passed away now.

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But many people might have seen James Bond 
and know Q the inventor

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and of course, Ian Fleming,
the writer of Bond based

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so many of Q's attributes
on what we call SSOs,

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who are the Senior Scientific Officers
of the Defence Research Agency.

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And in fact,
there are six Senior Scientific Officers,

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and I worked
for one of the Senior Scientific Officers.

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So if someone had told me as a young boy
watching James Bond, that later in life

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I'd be working for the equivalent of Q,
I think I would have burst out laughing [laughs]

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So I came through that path, finished the PhD,

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finished the research fellowship contract,
and then had the chance to go overseas.

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So I went to work partly in Canada
for the Canadian government.

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The construction research laboratories.

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And then I spent 18 months in Italy
working for the Italian government

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in Turin and Torino,
which was a wonderful opportunity.

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And then following that,
I went to work, for the German government

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Research Laboratories in Braunschweig
at the Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt,

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which is the the state Government Science
and Physics Metrology Center.

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I've been in all the projects
I've been involved with,

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whether it was Canada, Italy, Germany,

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my work when I came back to Scotland,
where I- where I joined

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Rob McKenzie Partnership, it
absolutely influences everything I do.

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And one of the exciting things is

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you see the challenges that the industry
has in construction and infrastructure.

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You see the pressures
they're under for material resources

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to do things better,
to improve circular economy.

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We use circular economy today
very much as a as a standard term.

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It wasn't a term used by the industry
many years ago.

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It was just about waste reduction
and trying to reuse the optimum materials

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we had and in many cases reuse buildings
through conversions and change of use.

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And I remember

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one of the first big conversions
I was on was an old church building,

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and an old convent, and it was amazing
converting that into apartments,

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and working with the architects
and designers.

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I've had the great fortune
to work with great research colleagues,

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and we've developed five patents,
and we have 17 patented

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products in the market,
which are manufactured in the UK

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and sold and owned
also by multinationals.-

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[Enda:] What does your field,

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which broadly we could describe as future
infrastructure, what does that encompass?

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How would you explain that
to a non-expert?-

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[Sean:] Well, infrastructure in the round
is almost everything around us from,

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from the physical manmade elements
of transport, buildings and roads, etc.,

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through to power lines and infrastructure
that supports our energy infrastructure,

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but also looking at some of the natural
infrastructure,

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for example, use of forests
and how we can bind soils and reduce,

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you know, for example, slippage
in embankments or hillsides, etc.,

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right through to marine preservation
and coastal protection and also

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specifically and more importantly,
addressing climate change.

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So the actual role

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within infrastructure is- 
is multifaceted and that's the perfect reason

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why it should be based
in the Edinburgh Futures Institute.-

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[Enda:] I was fascinated

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reading about you,
the work that you did on medical acoustics

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and preterm infants,
which I know was at an earlier stage in your career.

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Could you tell us a little bit about that?

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It seems a very practical case of where
high level research informs

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actually improving people's
lives on a day to day basis?-

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[Sean:] Yeah, it was a really interesting piece of work.

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Going back a wee while.

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This is when I was in an acoustics
research laboratory at Heriot-Watt.

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We had a- we have what's known
as anechoic chambers and anechoic chambers

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is where no sound or vibration
can enter or exit these test facilities.

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So it's a great way to measure directly

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how sound travels
from one source to another.

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And we had a visit from
a series of teachers who

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were teaching various projects
that the university had been linked to.

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We thought it'd be nice to bring the
teachers and and show them the facilities.

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And they walked into the anechoic chamber,

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and two of the teachers immediately
felt unwell and had to leave.

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And both teachers, we subsequently
found, had a hearing deficit.

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Two weeks later we had 
a visit from schoolchildren

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who were profoundly deaf.

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And when they went into the anechoic chamber,

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all of them immediately felt unwell.

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It was almost as if we'd taken away
any natural stimulus that was around them.

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And we jump forward about 4 or 5 years.

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And I'm now working in Italy.

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And, there had been discussions of how,

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we'd had a visit from,
to a colleague of mine, visits

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from the medical experts in Turin
and also from Rome,

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who were looking at the opportunities of

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when the foetus is in utero, in the womb,

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the opportunity and the importance
of the mother's voice and voices which penetrate it.

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They had seen and had been reported that there was

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better ventilation, better-
better receptacle

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to this kind of stimulus,
this natural stimulus of frequencies

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and that very same day,
there was an article about what they call

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‘La Mort Bleue’

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which is, also described as a SIDs
or Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.

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And the issues around children 
who these young-

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sorry, infants
who are generally 3 to 4 months old,

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who commonly have issues

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of influenza B, for example,
type of flu, or other issues,

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when- when they have cot death
or suffer from that terrible tragedy.

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And that very day
I had the most horrendous cold.

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I was coming down with the flu
and my hearing was affected,

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and I reminded myself of the issues
of the deaf and the profoundly deaf

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going into the anechoic chamber, how we'd
stripped away any natural environment,

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and when you looked
at a lot of the guidance

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for infants to avoid- 
to parents to avoid pre-term deaths

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such as sudden infant death syndrome,

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then the issues around

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audibility, hearing, synapsis, etc.

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and, things like,
you know, don't, you know, cover up

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with lots of materials,
you know, blankets and pillows.

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These are highly absorptive.

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And that started me
thinking is that, you know,

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eighth cranial nerve, is the auditory
nerve more important than we think?

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And we often hear about people
saying that when someone's

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in their last phase of life,

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they may not see you,
but the likelihood is they will hear you.

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And therefore, is it one of the last,
parts of our primary system to shut down?

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And we know it's linked to the thalamus
and the hypothalamus,

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and that controls our natural body

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mechanisms such as breathing, etc.

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So, I raced home, and went home with,

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several books and papers
and hid under the covers

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as I recovered from the flu myself
and read back to back all these papers,

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and on the Monday morning
came back in and met my colleague

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who had met with the medical experts,
and I said to him, I need you to sit down.

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And we drew up on the whiteboard
and I showed them this pathway of how auditory sound

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could influence various things
and cardiorespiratory function,

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and actually it could be more important
than we thought.

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And following that, 
we then contacted researchers in New Zealand,

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a wonderful researcher called Malcolm
Stewart, who at that time was in USA.

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And when we sent him
our kind of concept theory,

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he was delighted
because he had worked in a similar area.

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And we had synergy.

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And so we then read about 400 papers
and then summarised that.

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And then the paper was published
in the journal,

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International Journal of Prenatal
and Neonatal Medicine.

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One key bit of advice was,
and this was very important, was

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that it was important for
we felt for the infant

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to be sleeping in the same room,
not the same bed, but the same room

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as the parents,
because there's a natural stimulus

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when the parents are in the same room,
their breathing and other sounds.

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And obviously all the advice
about the position of the baby, etc.

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you know, the Back to Sleep campaign,
all our areas agreed with that.

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Because if you're not back to-

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on your back to sleep,
if you're on your side or your front,

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you will attenuate the auditory
nerve’s function, etc.

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and the blood flow.

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And so we’d recommended that.

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And so shortly after that

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there was a major international study
that then followed that up.

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And then the advice came from that
which is printed in all the

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sort of, newborn leaflets for parents.

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It's strongly advised that the infant
for the first six months

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sleeps in the same room, not the same bed,
so the cot can be near the bed.

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And, that's been advice ever since.

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So I think we were part of,
let's see, a series of people at that time

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who were very focused
on that area and our-

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I wouldn't say we led it, but I would say
the fact that the press coverage

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we got from both the BBC
and international newspapers,

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when the journal got published
and our article,

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drew a lot of attention to the area
and that if anything, I'm delighted with.-

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[Enda:] Could you tell us a little bit more
about how your research is informed?

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Sound insulation in domestic homes
and in the UK and internationally?

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00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,720
Could you tell us a little bit about it?-
[Sean:] Sure. Delighted to.

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So when I was doing the PhD,

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looking at sound and vibration 
in buildings and structures.

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That is all part and parcel
of looking at the overall

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sound insulation
which you have between housing.

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So this is what we call attached housing,
like terraced or semi-detached

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or flatted or apartment type buildings.

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And there's some key
regulations and standards.

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Now, those regulations and standards
do vary between countries.

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But nevertheless they're important

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because as a quality of life aspect

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interruption to sleep or other things through,

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you know, unwanted noise or unwanted
sound, such as noise is a real issue,

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particularly for young children

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and also for adults,
because it interrupts your sleep patterns.

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And what happened was, from the work
we were doing, the-

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the English or UK government-
the English government

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were changing their building regulations.

283
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,840
And at that time they had, proposed
a brand new criteria

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00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,840
for how you measure sound insulation.

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Quite different to anything-

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no one else in the world
was using at that time.

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And they’d sort of almost taken
a different standard

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00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,240
for a completely different aspect
and brought that in.

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And the house building industry
at the time were quite concerned that

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how were they going to address this
new criteria?

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00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:59,760
How do you meet this new sound insulation

292
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,000
and how do you design for it?
And how do you build the walls and floors

293
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,440
that divide all these housing and apartment
units to meet the new criteria?

294
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And we were very fortunate.

295
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And this is where data is key.

296
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We were sitting at the time in our
university and our research facility,

297
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,680
and also with the Robin McKenzie Partnership
on a lot of field test data.

298
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,800
And so we proposed it would may be useful
to look at an alternative approach,

299
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which is where you can actually design
in enhanced sound insulation.

300
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,320
So you build well beyond the standard.

301
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,320
And you're not going to have to test-
do that test of compliance.

302
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,080
And that was the big issue
the industry was facing in England, Wales.

303
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,080
How do you test and comply
if there's not enough testers?

304
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,840
And if you're actually building
very similar archetype

305
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,120
type approaches in new build of housing
and the type of construction,

306
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,920
how could you in fact standardise that?

307
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,440
And so we won the contract to investigate
and develop that.

308
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,160
The- the government gave the industry
a 12 months to deliver alternatives.

309
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,880
We told the industry, statistically,
you need to test every wall and floor,

310
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,400
different construction- different,
you know, houses, but the same design

311
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,520
30 times to have statistical significance.

312
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,400
They loved us for that one.

313
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,040
And then we proposed a series of
constructions for them to build and test.

314
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,640
And it was to the Home
Builders Federation.

315
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,760
And that was all the major and medium
size housebuilders

316
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,400
across England and Wales.

317
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,600
They absolutely rallied to the for-

318
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,960
We assembled five working groups, 119
committee members.

319
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,280
We issued the designs within six weeks
of being appointed on the project,

320
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,240
and they built for us 1400 brand new homes

321
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,360
with the designs in six and a half months
all tested.

322
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,200
And again thanks to building control,
the local authorities, the warranty providers

323
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,040
because they had to accept our
recommendations for these new designs.

324
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,200
And we were delighted to see the
government then and adopt that approach.

325
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,640
And the industry, we designed it
into a handbook and published it,

326
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:00,360
and the government then decided
instead of just a one off handbook,

327
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:02,160
let's keep this live.

328
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,000
Let's allow new innovation to come forward.

329
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,000
So an organisation was set up
called Robust Details and,

330
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,680
I was initially director of that
to get it going.

331
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,680
And I rejoined the company back in 2017.

332
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,080
And it's- it's a wonderful opportunity
how you could create a modal shift

333
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:24,800
for the whole sector, supporting evidence
underpinning data, standardised approach.

334
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,760
And, over 1.6 million homes
have now been built with those designs.-

335
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:33,120
[Enda:] Have have our attitudes toward,
what you might call

336
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,520
noise being seen as a disturbance,

337
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,600
have they changed over time?-

338
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:38,360
[Sean:] I think they have.

339
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,360
I think partly
maybe because of the source of noise.

340
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,720
If you go back to the ‘90s, in the 1990s,

341
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,440
the main driver behind England and Wales
changing their building regulations

342
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,880
and improving sound insulation levels
was because of the number of complaints

343
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:59,520
went up fourfold in the domestic sector,
not commercial, not environmental noise.

344
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It was the housing sector.

345
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,240
So many people were listening to bass
music, you know, garage, rave, etc.

346
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,200
and that probably really sort of
infused the government to say

347
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:11,720
we need to address this.

348
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,680
Now we cannot do it
retrospectively in existing stock.

349
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,200
It's not a health and safety- 
It's not a structural issue.

350
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,520
But we can do it for new build.

351
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,520
And that's why
when they designed this new criteria

352
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,720
that they brought in- they made a big,
big focus on lifting the requirements

353
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,160
of the minimum amount of insulation
you need at low frequencies,

354
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,280
which we had to design to meet.-

355
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,040
[Enda:] In the past 15 years or so,

356
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,440
you've very much concentrated
on sustainable construction.

357
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,160
What are the challenges,
that we face in our efforts

358
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,600
to achieve net zero emissions?-

359
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:48,560
[Sean:] As we look to the future,

360
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,960
one of the issues
is that the global population will rise

361
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,400
from about 8 billion
to about 11.3 billion by the year 2100.

362
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,480
That's going to place
huge, huge resources-

363
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,960
pressures on materials, land
availability, etc.

364
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,760
but particularly on materials.

365
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,520
And so to meet that demand
we will need

366
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,400
to build, over the next
75 years, 1.2 billion homes.

367
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,160
Now, in addition
to that, people are also living longer,

368
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,080
which is wonderful,
you know, fantastic health facilities.

369
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,960
And- and as more and more countries
improve their

370
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,600
approach to health and solutions
that they have,

371
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,600
so more people around
the world will live longer, too.

372
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,920
And what that does do, though, is that
then as more people live longer,

373
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,760
it reduces the supply of housing
coming back onto the market

374
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,480
and also sadly with divorce
and other things.

375
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,160
And so you need new households to support.

376
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,680
And this puts huge household pressure.

377
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,960
So we need another 800
million homes over the next 75 years.

378
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,000
If this trend continues globally,
that's 2 billion homes.

379
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,480
And the pull on material resources around
the world will just be huge

380
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,040
if it's not already.

381
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,440
So it's incredibly important
we do things as sustainably as we can.

382
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,240
We reutilise materials, we reutilise-

383
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:07,680
we look at design, from the very first thing
that we do right from the design stage,

384
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,680
how do we maximise that delivery
but reduce the effect of footprint

385
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,440
of materials and resource? 
And net zero, which is a separate

386
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,720
but almost equal challenge,
has had various,

387
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,800
let's say, journeys
of different play in different countries.

388
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,600
The UK, we- we for example, 
in construction, in housing,

389
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,360
we devolve the targets effectively
that we're looking at.

390
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,600
Specifically the Scottish Government
has its own targets,

391
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,640
but nevertheless
it will still wrap into the UK targets.

392
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,640
So the Scottish targets are 2045
for net zero

393
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,760
UK targets, most of European targets
are 2050.

394
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:49,160
And whilst across the UK, we have reduced
overall emissions by about 53%

395
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,560
since the 1990 levels to where we are now
today in 2024.

396
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,960
We're in that tough period where we've not
really reduced effectively for housing.

397
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,520
We've not reduced effectively
for agriculture.

398
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,280
And our transport emissions
make up 25% of the emissions

399
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,280
that we currently have,
and that's another key target.

400
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,200
So the amount of work and graft
to do over this

401
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,200
next 20 to 25 years is significant.

402
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,920
And we're in,
I would say the difficult stage

403
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,560
because we have done some of the easy bits.

404
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,560
We've done some of that low hanging fruit
and we really, really need to up the game

405
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,920
and accelerate as quickly
as we can.

406
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,080
And finally, I would say
it's not all about data and technologies.

407
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,240
We need to take society with us.

408
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,200
I mean, for example, two years ago,
if you wanted to do some sort of

409
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,840
green measures on your home,
there are about 7 or 8 different types

410
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,440
of funding stream and different
funding aspects from governments

411
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,080
depending on what you were looking at,
and that was very complex for people.

412
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,560
So I think we need to streamline it, 
simplify it.

413
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,400
Just looking at Edinburgh and Glasgow
alone. Just take- just the housing,

414
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,560
forget transport, anything else
but just to retrofit where we are.

415
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,440
That's a 35 billion pound market over
the next 20 years.

416
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,600
Scotland needs to retrofit
roughly about 135,000 homes per year.

417
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,560
England needs to retrofit
approximately 900,000 homes per year,

418
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,080
and Europe needs to retrofit, every year
till 2050,

419
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,120
11 million homes per year.-

420
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:26,200
[Enda:] I think this takes us to your role within the Futures Institute,

421
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,000
as director of the Center for Future Infrastructure.
What does the centre do?-

422
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,160
[Sean:] Well, the centre really acts as a-
as a bridge between many of the aspects

423
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,160
happening in engineering
across all areas of engineering,

424
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,200
and also within the college of Science
and Engineering and linking

425
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:44,520
right across the university.

426
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,520
So very much the EFI,
the Edinburgh Futures Institute model,

427
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,880
the Centre for Future Infrastructure
by being based there.

428
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:55,600
Its purpose is to look and solve
and work with interdisciplinary teams.

429
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,080
So that's working with architecture.

430
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,000
Could be the law school,
it could be geosciences,

431
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,240
it could be social sciences or humanities,
it could be the business school.

432
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,240
So the purpose of the centre

433
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,640
is not to run a- get lots
and lots of academic research staff.

434
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,360
The purpose is to link across
who are our experts, where are they

435
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:16,680
in the different schools and research
institutes across the university.

436
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,640
where we need them to come together
and be the interdisciplinary team?

437
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,720
I mean, just some examples of projects
we've worked with geosciences

438
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,160
and architecture,
looking at projects around Dubai.

439
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,800
Similarly,
we've worked with similar diverse schools

440
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,960
around projects
looking at sustainability in Galapagos.

441
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,520
We've had projects recently
in South Africa-

442
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,920
sorry, South America, where they're looking
at issues around new infrastructure

443
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,800
for dams and also the issue
around the legal aspects for that.

444
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,200
So it's- it's quite a diverse
but a wonderful area

445
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,240
to be in because infrastructure touches
so many areas.

446
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:55,640
It's almost a keystone.

447
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,680
We take so much of it for granted,
but nevertheless

448
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,280
we use it day in and day out
and it plays such a critical role.

449
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,800
So that's that's the purpose of CFI to go
after some of these key challenges

450
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,440
around climate change and
infrastructure, particularly resilience.

451
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,400
But also to to bring
all these different partners together,

452
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,520
all these diverse and wonderful
academic colleagues that we have

453
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,040
at the University of Edinburgh

454
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,480
and also work
with industry, public sector,

455
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,880
whether it's advising on future
skills pathways,

456
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,880
which we've been doing for the region,
and also for the UK,

457
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,560
where it's looking at the opportunities
around new skills

458
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,920
that will be needed for the future,
the new technologies which are coming.

459
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,200
So we're assessing some world
firsts and new heating systems

460
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,000
that are coming to market,
which is very exciting, but also listening

461
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,520
to the societal needs

462
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,560
and that sort of, touchstone of
where is society going?

463
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,680
Are the on side with us,
with where we're trying to get to

464
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,560
what could make it easier,
and how do we infuse them to stay with us?

465
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,360
And when people were saving, many years
ago and planning for their pension,

466
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,000
they probably hadn't planned

467
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,240
that they might have to spend 15
or 20,000 pounds retrofitting their home

468
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,240
and an additional,
maybe 20 or 25 thousands over

469
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,240
and above what they were expecting to pay
for an electric vehicle,

470
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,520
in addition to installing
electric charging points, etc..

471
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,000
So it's a new dynamic.

472
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,800
It's complex.

473
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,840
It weighs heavily on some people's
shoulders how they might afford that.

474
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,400
And so we need to make sure
that we are 1) simplifying that process,

475
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,840
innovating to reduce the costs

476
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,040
and improving how people will interact
with that and take it forward.-

477
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,520
[Enda:] Where do you see
political leadership featuring?-

478
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,840
[Sean:] This is something because it's 2045
or 2050 deadlines for net zero,

479
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:46,200
and this is not something
that's a 4 or 5 year political cycle.

480
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,880
This is something you invest in now for
the future, and none more so than skills.

481
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,200
We need a kind of joined up approach
across government in construction.

482
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,680
And that has perhaps been lacking a bit.

483
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,720
I saw many years ago a very good model.

484
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,720
This is about, oh, 15, 16 years ago.

485
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,000
I won't say where if that's okay,
but it was a government department we were working with,

486
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,320
where they had effectively

487
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,120
a very, very senior
civil servant who led construction.

488
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,360
And whilst the sector was,
you know, crisscrossing 6 or 7

489
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:23,400
ministerial portfolios,

490
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,960
he linked everything together
and tried to make sure

491
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,560
there was an association
or link with them.

492
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,840
When he left, he wasn't replaced.

493
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,280
And suddenly that- there was a loss.

494
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,200
There was no construction minister either.

495
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,440
So there was no one to drive things forward.

496
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,680
And we've seen both in the 2013 review,
for example, of the review-

497
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,240
the review of procurement
in construction, they recommended

498
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,960
having a Construction Czar
or a Minister for Construction.

499
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,280
And I did a review
for the new housing skills

500
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,800
for future new housing
and one of the 40 recommendations

501
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,400
there was to have, we need a Construction
Minister or a Senior Construction Czar

502
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,840
who’s in the civil service
because it's so important.

503
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:07,160
To get to net zero construction and
infrastructure is absolutely paramount,

504
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,760
and you can't have so many things
crisscrossing

505
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,000
6 or 7 government agencies
with no connected tie up-

506
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,000
[Enda:] You were very recently
awarded a large grant from UK Research

507
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:21,080
and Innovation,
and congratulations on that

508
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,120
for a new Centre
for Net Zero High Density Building.

509
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:25,640
How do you think this funding

510
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,640
will transform practices
within the construction industry?-

511
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,600
[Sean:] We- we're in some pretty difficult times
when you're looking at net zero.

512
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,320
The reason that we looked
at the high density buildings is

513
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,120
let's just take Edinburgh and Glasgow.

514
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:45,000
They are 68% and 70% flats,
so the highest proportion of flatted

515
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,080
or apartment dwellings in the UK.
London is about 52%.

516
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,320
The UK average is 20%.

517
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,160
And Scotland
actually has a higher average, about 38%.

518
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,200
But nevertheless, the complexities
of dense streetscapes, different types

519
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,600
of archetypes of buildings going back
400 years, stone developments, etc.

520
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,440
traditional, historic and listed,

521
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,080
plus the complexity of bringing in perhaps
future district community heating,

522
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,680
testing new technologies, the skills

523
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,200
and the data required for that, and also
that occupant interaction behaviour.

524
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,200
That was the foundation
of setting up the centre.

525
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,200
So we could have multiple workstreams
that were talking to each other,

526
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,640
new heating technologies, new materials,
green approaches,

527
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,640
archetypes, district community
heating, sensors, etc., etc.

528
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,160
and skills.

529
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,840
And for the sector itself,
the sector is thriving.

530
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,000
It is innovating where it can.

531
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,040
It's testing and developing
and they need support.

532
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,000
And that is the role of the centre.

533
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,080
The centre will support the industry,
both public sector, private, commercial.

534
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:50,680
It goes beyond just housing.

535
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,760
It's going to look at non-domestic
as well.

536
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,920
And it will also, as we're
currently doing, working with new housing.

537
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,000
For example,

538
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,920
the Edinburgh home demonstrator down
at Granton is one of the sort of,

539
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,120
real pushers of the envelope of where
we're going with net zero for housing.

540
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,240
And it’s great to be involved with that.

541
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,800
And, in the future, that could be a,
you know,

542
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,800
a major test bed for so many of the things
that are to come.

543
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,760
But we think it's very important
having such wonderful partners.

544
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,360
So it's- Edinburgh's leading it 
with Glasgow University,

545
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,000
Strathclyde University,
Napier University, West of Scotland.

546
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,680
And we're working with the-
the industry’s forerunner in innovation

547
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,120
and development which is known as ‘BEST’:
Built Environment Smart Transformation.

548
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,200
We have 58 partners.

549
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,800
That's given me a few grey hairs,
drawing them together.

550
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:40,680
From public, government, social housing,
industry, manufacturers, etc..

551
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,480
And I think collectively that four year project,
all being well,

552
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,280
every few months will be pumping out
reports, knowledge exchange and workshops

553
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,240
to accelerate that delivery of net zero
for this really important area,

554
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,240
which is high density
buildings and cities.-

555
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,160
[Enda:] We're here in the Edinburgh
Futures Institute.

556
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,160
What sort of future do you envisage
given your expertise?-

557
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,720
[Sean:] Sometimes people ask me
‘what gives you sleepless nights?’

558
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,280
and I'd say the whole issue around
building in the resilience

559
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,040
we need for our infrastructure
with climate change.

560
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,760
I think we've seen
with the recent tragic events in Valencia,

561
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,360
in Spain, Malaga,
Barcelona, Italy, with similar floods,

562
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,400
this- this terrible Storm Boris
this this summer

563
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,200
in Europe, which impacted seven countries.

564
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,520
And the scale of flooding and basically
our roads are turning into rivers.

565
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,040
They've become the conduit
for most of the flood waters now,

566
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,880
and the damage to people's lives

567
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,480
and property is so significant
and the intensity is increasing.

568
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,200
So we've seen a huge increase
in the intensity

569
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,160
and also the number of storms
in terms of that intensity in Europe,

570
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,720
in America,
they classify as billion dollar events.

571
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,800
And back in about 2003,
they had 2 or 3 events.

572
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,960
In 2023,
they had 23 major billion dollar events

573
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,880
due to forest fires
or flooding and storms.

574
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,760
We saw with Hurricane Helene,

575
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,720
in- in the USA,
the whole issue there of-

576
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,040
absolutely everybody was right
to focus on storm surge,

577
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:21,840
the Florida Panhandle.

578
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,760
I think no one could quite foresee with
suddenly that slow movement of the storm

579
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,640
as it sat over the- the states
further to the north, like North Carolina,

580
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,760
the sheer scale of damage
that would ensue.

581
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,640
And then more recently with the other one,
with Hurricane Milton,

582
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,920
which crisscrossed
the panhandle of Florida.

583
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,800
And everybody did the right thing.
They got out of-

584
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,000
this is going to be the pathway.

585
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,440
Okay, we'll get out of that pathway.

586
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,120
We'll move north or south.

587
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,240
But no one could have foresaw
we'd have 140 tornadoes

588
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,120
to the south of the hurricane pathway,
where people thought they would be

589
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,160
more safe, but
in fact turned out to be more dangerous.-

590
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,360
[Enda:] Thank you very much for coming in
to tell us about your fascinating work.-

591
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,360
[Sean:] Thank thanks very much, Enda.

592
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,760
[Electronic beat]