WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.906 --> 00:00:17.966 jethro_2_04-23-2025_143737: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.476 --> 00:00:19.976 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.976 --> 00:00:22.676 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:34.896 --> 00:00:38.766 Jethro Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principle, this episode. 00:00:38.886 --> 00:00:39.486 Oh boy. 00:00:40.146 --> 00:00:40.716 good stuff. 00:00:40.716 --> 00:00:45.486 This is about my podcast to PhD discussion. 00:00:45.576 --> 00:00:51.456 If you've been listening for a long time, you remember that back in 20 20, 20 21, something like that. 00:00:51.456 --> 00:00:56.856 I said, I bet that I can do something and get a doctorate degree. 00:00:57.156 --> 00:01:04.656 Uh, somehow related to this podcast, I've been through a million different ideas and figured something out. 00:01:04.656 --> 00:01:12.606 I enrolled into a doctoral program and now I'm at a stage where coursework is done and it's time for me to do the dissertation. 00:01:12.696 --> 00:01:18.486 And one of my biggest fears is getting the dreaded all but dissertation and being. 00:01:19.131 --> 00:01:22.881 And having this thing over my head that I can't get off. 00:01:22.881 --> 00:01:35.331 And so, uh, I do these, uh, these things called a big impact mixer each month, uh, that you can check out Jethro dot site slash Big Impact mixer, and you can, you can join those. 00:01:35.691 --> 00:01:39.951 But one of the things that I happened to learn was that in my network already. 00:01:40.336 --> 00:01:46.666 As someone who coaches and helps people finish their dissertations, was like, this is great. 00:01:46.966 --> 00:01:49.516 So Dr. Jayne Lammers, welcome. 00:01:49.786 --> 00:01:54.706 Tell us about what you do and how you started helping people with dissertations. 00:01:54.706 --> 00:01:54.766 I. 00:01:55.026 --> 00:01:55.956 Dr. Jayne Lammers: thank you, Jethro. 00:01:55.956 --> 00:02:01.206 So you and I had an opportunity to talk, uh, about the work that I do in my day job. 00:02:01.446 --> 00:02:02.031 So I'm. 00:02:02.671 --> 00:02:07.141 Director of Learning design for Edmentum and have been doing that work since 2022. 00:02:07.861 --> 00:02:16.501 But since 2010, I have been supporting doctoral students, uh, both my peers at that time. 00:02:16.741 --> 00:02:22.651 And then I was formerly, um, a tenured professor at the University of Rochester. 00:02:23.406 --> 00:02:29.346 And for a whole host of reasons, pandemic, family, whatever. 00:02:29.676 --> 00:02:31.326 I left academia. 00:02:31.326 --> 00:02:42.546 I gave up tenure, and I took the role at edmentum and I love what I do and I miss the support of DOC students. 00:02:42.846 --> 00:02:50.946 So because of my own commitment to my students and what we had built together, even when I started at Edmentum. 00:02:51.786 --> 00:02:58.476 I still kept the, the final five of my students and saw them through their dissertations. 00:02:58.506 --> 00:03:03.126 So anyone who had already passed their proposal was somebody that I kept. 00:03:03.126 --> 00:03:05.916 But at the time I had 13 doctoral students. 00:03:06.816 --> 00:03:19.236 And if anybody out there who's listening to this is either in a doctoral program or, uh, knows at all what it's like to advise DOC students. 00:03:19.941 --> 00:03:27.741 It's a lot of work, and so when you have 13 of them, you have to develop systems to be successful at doing that. 00:03:28.606 --> 00:03:29.596 Jethro Jones: You're speaking my language 00:03:29.736 --> 00:03:30.186 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yes. 00:03:30.406 --> 00:03:31.036 Jethro Jones: I love it. 00:03:31.116 --> 00:03:43.206 Dr. Jayne Lammers: And you know, I have successfully supported 15 doc students, um, in just the, the time that I was a professor from 2011 to the last one. 00:03:43.206 --> 00:03:44.976 I just hooded last month. 00:03:45.636 --> 00:03:53.916 Um, and I did so, and I was able to be successful because of these different systems that we put in place. 00:03:54.216 --> 00:03:56.226 And, and I gotta say like. 00:03:57.246 --> 00:04:03.306 It's not because I'm necessarily special or that I liked them more. 00:04:03.336 --> 00:04:10.386 You know, students had all these myths behind the scenes of, um, why I was a good advisor. 00:04:10.386 --> 00:04:16.746 And, you know, they would all talk amongst themselves and, and compare notes and people would ask to switch to me. 00:04:16.941 --> 00:04:20.286 And in fact, I remember having somebody say like, I want. 00:04:20.321 --> 00:04:21.311 To come to you. 00:04:21.311 --> 00:04:23.861 Like I've heard good things and I sat them down. 00:04:23.861 --> 00:04:38.771 We almost did like an intake first, and I was like, just so you know, if you're coming to me, you're signing up for all of these different systems that have come into place, and you gotta be willing to do that because that's the only way that we are successful. 00:04:39.141 --> 00:04:39.861 At doing that. 00:04:39.891 --> 00:04:43.971 So I just really missed that aspect of the work. 00:04:44.031 --> 00:04:58.911 So I have launched Dr. Jayne Consulting services and I have been helping students at Arizona State University at the University of Pennsylvania at the University of Rochester. 00:04:58.941 --> 00:05:08.181 And now I'm thinking about like what might it be to help other students because I think the systems that I've put in place can really help. 00:05:08.916 --> 00:05:16.571 Real people be successful at going from A, B, D to ED, D, or PhD, whatever the degree may be. 00:05:17.526 --> 00:05:17.976 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:05:18.156 --> 00:05:31.506 Well, and you, you're really speaking my language here because idea of having systems in place, like a lot of people say, Jethro, how have you done almost 700 episodes of this podcast? 00:05:31.846 --> 00:05:32.746 Over 10 years. 00:05:32.746 --> 00:05:47.566 And the answer is absolutely systems that if I had to do everything I need to do for this podcast and I didn't have systems in place to make it easy for that to happen, it would just not be possible. 00:05:47.596 --> 00:05:53.986 And I've already set up some systems for my own work, uh, on my dissertation that have been. 00:05:54.636 --> 00:06:03.186 Proven to be very helpful and some, some ways that I'm, I've been very picky about how I do things so that it's really. 00:06:03.831 --> 00:06:08.031 Uh, it's really easy for me to get the work done that I need to get done. 00:06:08.151 --> 00:06:11.841 And so, for example, how I take notes is one of those things. 00:06:12.051 --> 00:06:20.046 I, if I cannot read it in the read wise app, um, then I. I'm not gonna use it in my dissertation. 00:06:20.946 --> 00:06:30.276 And, and that's because when I take a note in there, I can add my comments to the note and then it sinks to my obsidian vault, which is where I write everything. 00:06:30.726 --> 00:06:35.046 And then I have the, the citation, I have my thoughts on it in the moment. 00:06:35.046 --> 00:06:43.011 I. And I'm ready to go and I don't have to, uh, like go searching through some other thing that I find somewhere else. 00:06:43.041 --> 00:06:55.641 And so I've even taken pictures of books and uploaded them into this so that I can have it work in my workflow, because I know if I don't have those systems in place, then, then it's not going to work. 00:06:55.671 --> 00:06:58.281 So I want to get into your systems in a second, but before 00:06:58.381 --> 00:06:58.671 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah. 00:06:59.031 --> 00:07:06.666 Jethro Jones: I want to go back and you, you did this successfully as a. As a dissertation chair. 00:07:06.696 --> 00:07:08.406 So you were helping those people. 00:07:08.796 --> 00:07:23.616 So how is this different having you as like an A coach versus the chair and how does that make it easier for the student and for their dissertation chair that is working for the university and is like doing that 00:07:23.721 --> 00:07:25.911 Dr. Jayne Lammers: It's, it's a great question. 00:07:25.911 --> 00:07:31.106 So, um, one of the things that I noticed is that. 00:07:33.036 --> 00:07:49.566 Academia and the systems by which academics are valued and how they get recognition does not set the whole relationship up for success on the part of the student. 00:07:50.076 --> 00:07:51.066 Let's be real. 00:07:51.066 --> 00:07:54.606 And it's not the fault of the professor, right? 00:07:54.666 --> 00:07:56.286 It's how they're rewarded. 00:07:56.286 --> 00:08:02.736 It's how they're like what matters to any kind of tenure promotion, any of that. 00:08:03.846 --> 00:08:13.086 And that doesn't mean that your work as the student doesn't matter to them, but they're just not incentivized. 00:08:13.371 --> 00:08:18.021 So that's why I think the role of a coach is helpful. 00:08:18.951 --> 00:08:25.551 Now, I do some work as a coach through the University of Pennsylvania in their mid-career program. 00:08:25.551 --> 00:08:28.281 It's an ED leadership mid-career program. 00:08:28.791 --> 00:08:35.781 And what I love about that is that program has said at the program level, we think coaches are valuable. 00:08:36.201 --> 00:08:40.971 And in that role, that was where I was able to see that having somebody. 00:08:41.496 --> 00:08:44.616 Kind of pseudo outside of the university. 00:08:45.006 --> 00:08:47.616 I have no power over these students. 00:08:47.616 --> 00:08:51.426 I'm not sitting in the rooms making decision about them. 00:08:51.726 --> 00:08:53.466 I'm not, um. 00:08:53.826 --> 00:08:55.206 Required to. 00:08:55.356 --> 00:09:02.526 I'm also not required to do all the other things that a university normally requires, so I'm not bogged down by all of that stuff. 00:09:02.976 --> 00:09:16.776 But what I am able to do as a coach then is for the students, I'm able to create a, a place of support where they can be real without fear of judgment, uh, about, you know. 00:09:17.196 --> 00:09:20.556 There's tenuous relationships amongst faculty members. 00:09:20.556 --> 00:09:30.336 Like when I was a chair and I was a faculty member, if students were having challenges, it's very vulnerable for them to come to me and admit that. 00:09:30.486 --> 00:09:30.966 Right. 00:09:31.896 --> 00:09:40.776 But as the coach on the outside, students can be more real, I've found about what's causing them struggles. 00:09:41.556 --> 00:09:45.006 Now, you also asked what's the benefit to the faculty member? 00:09:45.246 --> 00:09:45.546 Yeah. 00:09:45.876 --> 00:09:46.086 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:09:46.116 --> 00:09:46.476 Hold on 00:09:46.581 --> 00:09:47.001 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah. 00:09:47.136 --> 00:10:01.116 Jethro Jones: because here's, here's one of the interesting dynamics in this is that as someone who is attempting to complete a dissertation, I am entering into the same space as my professors to become a 00:10:01.371 --> 00:10:01.791 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yes. 00:10:02.046 --> 00:10:09.156 Jethro Jones: And yet they have been giving me assignments, saying this is what needs to be accomplished and treating me as a student. 00:10:09.156 --> 00:10:11.046 And so this shift from. 00:10:11.466 --> 00:10:24.726 Student to peer is quite jarring because you basically go from, I'm your professor, do all this stuff to now you are in charge and you have to do it all basically on your own and you have to drive the bus. 00:10:24.726 --> 00:10:29.286 And I know not every place is like that, but you go back to the incentives and how things are structured. 00:10:29.646 --> 00:10:33.846 It is, it is not their responsibility to ensure that I get my doctorate. 00:10:34.146 --> 00:10:37.656 It is my responsibility to ensure that it, that it gets completed. 00:10:37.986 --> 00:10:54.456 And that creates some challenges in that relationship because, uh, honestly, they, they don't care and they are incentivized for me to take a long time because that's more money to the university for very little effort on the university's part. 00:10:54.606 --> 00:10:55.746 And I don't mean to be 00:10:55.981 --> 00:10:56.341 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Mm-hmm. 00:10:56.826 --> 00:11:01.326 Jethro Jones: That's, that's a crappy situation, but it is because it is a crappy situation. 00:11:01.581 --> 00:11:08.361 Dr. Jayne Lammers: identified One of the reasons that I was thinking about, like when I say they're not incentivized Yes. 00:11:08.391 --> 00:11:10.341 They're not in, in many ways. 00:11:10.641 --> 00:11:11.121 Right. 00:11:11.481 --> 00:11:17.091 And it, it makes it seem like they don't care because they don't need to. 00:11:17.181 --> 00:11:17.631 Right. 00:11:18.111 --> 00:11:20.691 And the other thing is like, think about it. 00:11:20.691 --> 00:11:24.741 I had 13 students like trying to keep track of. 00:11:25.146 --> 00:11:31.146 All 13 of their projects when from a student perspective, it's your life. 00:11:31.206 --> 00:11:33.036 It's a huge part of your life. 00:11:33.036 --> 00:11:33.456 Right. 00:11:33.456 --> 00:11:45.576 I remember when I was a student and I would have weekly meetings with my dissertation chair, I. Not because she was my chair, but because we had other research projects. 00:11:45.846 --> 00:11:56.016 And when I would use those FaceTime opportunities to try to sneak in some questions about my dissertation with her, I remember times feeling like, wait. 00:11:56.016 --> 00:12:01.236 She doesn't remember what I told her last week about where I was like, this isn't right. 00:12:01.896 --> 00:12:06.456 And I'll tell you, Jethro, a year into being a professor, I saw her at a conference. 00:12:06.756 --> 00:12:12.486 I gave her a hug and told her I'm sorry for all the things she didn't know I was saying about her, because now I got it. 00:12:12.516 --> 00:12:16.956 Like I understood why she couldn't keep track of all of that. 00:12:16.986 --> 00:12:17.406 Right. 00:12:17.406 --> 00:12:19.206 And it wasn't really her role. 00:12:19.686 --> 00:12:26.646 So from a, from a student perspective, I give students a place where. 00:12:27.906 --> 00:12:46.086 I value your project nearly as much as you do, and I help guide that transition from you are the student in a classroom to now you are an independent researcher and, and how you put those things in place. 00:12:46.086 --> 00:12:53.826 And the other thing we haven't talked about, I, I loved hearing you say you have all of these systems and those systems are really helpful. 00:12:54.261 --> 00:12:58.251 But there's an emotional aspect to writing. 00:12:58.851 --> 00:13:22.461 There's an emotional aspect to investing in this project that has consequences the way a dissertation does, both for your program and whatever career motivation got you into this, and doctoral students as older students, as you know, mid-career or beyond career transitioning folks. 00:13:22.956 --> 00:13:24.576 You have full lives. 00:13:24.756 --> 00:13:33.366 So the other thing that programs don't take into account are all of those things that may happen. 00:13:33.666 --> 00:13:42.396 And I think a coach can help you navigate the difference, like all of those different factors. 00:13:42.906 --> 00:13:50.076 Um, and again, you may not always have the opportunity to have the FaceTime or the attention. 00:13:50.391 --> 00:13:54.441 Of a chair and your chair may not be equipped or even interested. 00:13:54.831 --> 00:13:55.161 There. 00:13:55.161 --> 00:14:13.491 There are very good reasons why a chair needs to keep boundaries and not necessarily know all about what's happening in your life, but you, as the dissertate needs some support to navigate how, how do I, you know, this real thing happened to me. 00:14:13.671 --> 00:14:16.341 How do I still make progress to meet this deadline? 00:14:16.341 --> 00:14:17.811 But, oh my gosh, you know? 00:14:18.001 --> 00:14:18.811 Here I am. 00:14:18.846 --> 00:14:26.761 I, I had a student just last month helping his newborn baby with her jaundice treatments. 00:14:26.761 --> 00:14:35.011 And he sent me a picture and he is got his laptop there while he's also got skin on skin time and she's getting her light therapy and, you know what I mean? 00:14:35.796 --> 00:14:36.576 Jethro Jones: Yeah, that's 00:14:36.631 --> 00:14:37.531 Dr. Jayne Lammers: And that's real. 00:14:37.591 --> 00:14:44.311 And so I, as the coach, can empathize with that and help him think through some strategies to. 00:14:44.586 --> 00:14:50.796 Kind of do good enough to get through the next milestone to get put it in front of his faculty member. 00:14:51.891 --> 00:14:52.371 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:14:52.431 --> 00:14:52.731 Yeah. 00:14:52.761 --> 00:14:53.331 Very good. 00:14:53.331 --> 00:14:58.491 And one of the other benefits I see for the faculty member is that you've got someone else worrying about. 00:14:59.651 --> 00:14:59.871 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Huh? 00:15:00.411 --> 00:15:05.301 Jethro Jones: The progress, who can say what it's like to get through the whole thing? 00:15:05.571 --> 00:15:15.111 And, and the, the real challenge for every doctoral, uh, candidate is that they likely have not been through the process before. 00:15:15.411 --> 00:15:16.971 So everything is new to them. 00:15:17.286 --> 00:15:26.166 And so I've written, uh, four books now and still, uh, writing a dissertation is a different new experience. 00:15:26.316 --> 00:15:29.466 So I'm not worried about like, can I put words on paper? 00:15:29.466 --> 00:15:30.246 Yes, I can. 00:15:30.576 --> 00:15:36.366 What I'm worried about is can I do it in the right way and in the way that is defensible in a dissertation type thing. 00:15:36.366 --> 00:15:36.376 So 00:15:38.442 --> 00:15:42.762 move on and talk about the systems, uh, that you put in place. 00:15:42.762 --> 00:15:45.852 Uh, you, you called it, uh, loving and shoving. 00:15:46.227 --> 00:15:47.757 Uh, one aspect of it. 00:15:47.757 --> 00:15:53.307 And so let's, let's talk about the, the systems that you put in place to help people be successful with 00:15:53.637 --> 00:16:02.337 Dr. Jayne Lammers: I'll, I'll give a quick, uh, hat tip to a University of Pennsylvania student named Steve who came up with that and I thought it was great. 00:16:02.787 --> 00:16:04.467 He was like, Dr. Jayne, that's what you're doing. 00:16:04.467 --> 00:16:05.517 You're loving and shoving. 00:16:05.997 --> 00:16:10.377 Um, and one of the, um, the core. 00:16:11.097 --> 00:16:15.087 Aspects to my systems of success is a weekly accountability check-in. 00:16:15.447 --> 00:16:18.507 And those are best done as small groups. 00:16:19.167 --> 00:16:21.897 So small group accountability. 00:16:22.107 --> 00:16:25.077 You set a time, everybody shows up. 00:16:25.287 --> 00:16:33.297 It's a no shame space where we create momentum just by you showing up. 00:16:33.957 --> 00:16:39.597 And during that short check-in meeting, what happens is. 00:16:40.437 --> 00:16:43.227 I hear from you, what's your goal for this week? 00:16:43.437 --> 00:16:51.777 I note that down next week we come back and I say, Jethro, you said last week you were gonna work on this, this, and this. 00:16:51.807 --> 00:16:53.187 Where are you at with that? 00:16:53.307 --> 00:16:54.897 And it's just a reporting out. 00:16:54.927 --> 00:17:05.727 And anytime you maybe are like, uh, the other thing that I'm doing when you're reporting out to me is I am looking for. 00:17:05.997 --> 00:17:12.087 Patterns in your kind of goal making or goal missing for whatever that may be. 00:17:12.507 --> 00:17:28.977 And I'm looking to hear any signs of resistance that I hear, um, anxieties, uh, life getting in the way, uh, programmatic struggles and I look to be a problem solver and we do some quick problem solving for you. 00:17:29.457 --> 00:17:35.427 But the reason why this works best in a group, and I developed that when I was at Rochester. 00:17:36.222 --> 00:17:53.682 And it works best in the group because then you also hear all of your peers who are at similar stages as you, and you benefit from hearing what they're doing and hearing any coaching that might happen in the moment about their goal setting. 00:17:53.922 --> 00:18:00.222 And what I really hone in on in those meetings is setting realistic goals. 00:18:01.197 --> 00:18:05.757 Take into consideration your life and what you have going on for that week. 00:18:06.447 --> 00:18:08.997 And yes, they need to be smart, right? 00:18:08.997 --> 00:18:22.467 Measurable, all that, but it's making them attainable and humane so that when you come to these weekly accountability meetings, you are building momentum through successes, right? 00:18:23.262 --> 00:18:28.332 And that's where, and if I hear things like, oh, I didn't do this. 00:18:28.332 --> 00:18:40.542 Like, that's where the shoving comes in and I might push you in a particular direction, help you make something more actionable, more realistic for your week, and then you can get some success and some momentum. 00:18:41.657 --> 00:18:57.747 Jethro Jones: Well, and this is a key thing that I found, and it's what I'm doing my research on, is these weekly accountability groups through the Transformative Principle Mastermind, which have been ridiculously successful for people who have participated in it, who go on to win. 00:18:58.077 --> 00:19:18.807 State and national awards and recognition and improved student achievement and all this kind of stuff, and having a group of people who don't care about all the other crap that's going on, but just care about you as a person really does make a huge difference and, and this is so valuable for people to have and it. 00:19:19.707 --> 00:19:19.977 It. 00:19:20.007 --> 00:19:23.727 I often think with things like this, it's like, do I really need this accountability group? 00:19:23.847 --> 00:19:37.737 And the answer is yes, I do, because I know that I do so much better when I, when I have to show up and say, I didn't do X, Y, or Z, or whatever, because that is, I don't need anything more than that. 00:19:37.827 --> 00:19:45.567 You know, like some people do these things where like if you, if you don't meet your goal, then you have to like pay money to somebody you hate or something 00:19:45.732 --> 00:19:47.532 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah, those stick contracts. 00:19:47.682 --> 00:19:47.862 Yeah. 00:19:48.162 --> 00:19:56.952 Jethro Jones: Yeah, that doesn't work for me, but just showing up to a group of people that I care about that does work for me and I am going to, and I'm gonna show up in a good way for them. 00:19:57.102 --> 00:19:57.402 Alright. 00:19:57.402 --> 00:19:58.212 What other systems 00:19:58.362 --> 00:19:58.692 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Right. 00:19:58.692 --> 00:20:02.892 And, um, one plug, one more plug about that weekly accountability group. 00:20:02.892 --> 00:20:06.162 So I did that when I was their chair and their advisor. 00:20:06.162 --> 00:20:14.052 And of course, like there's incentive to show up, but I now have a year of doing this at Pennsylvania where I am not their chair. 00:20:14.322 --> 00:20:17.682 I am just Dr. Jayne coach on the side and the showing up. 00:20:17.682 --> 00:20:21.072 It still works and it, it still, it still helps support. 00:20:21.717 --> 00:20:23.637 Jethro Jones: I, I would even argue, Jayne, that it works 00:20:23.652 --> 00:20:24.342 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Hmm. 00:20:24.957 --> 00:20:29.157 Jethro Jones: because if I have to show up to a meeting with my professor, that's one thing. 00:20:29.397 --> 00:20:34.317 If I am choosing to show up to a different accountability group, that's, that's a whole other thing. 00:20:34.377 --> 00:20:37.677 And, and that is, anyway, I 00:20:37.707 --> 00:20:38.067 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah. 00:20:38.187 --> 00:20:39.837 Jethro Jones: about that, but, uh, lemme just leave it 00:20:39.957 --> 00:20:41.577 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah, I could see agency. 00:20:41.667 --> 00:20:43.557 It also could be more motivating. 00:20:43.617 --> 00:20:44.007 Yep. 00:20:44.457 --> 00:20:47.757 Um, so I already touched a little bit about goal setting. 00:20:47.817 --> 00:20:56.427 So I have a particular approach on goal setting and making them attainable and realistic and humane for your life and your realities. 00:20:56.427 --> 00:21:07.767 And part of the reason why a coaching relationship helps is that I'm then paying attention to your life in as much as you feel is relevant to share. 00:21:08.112 --> 00:21:12.222 So that we can then make sure that your goals are realistic. 00:21:12.402 --> 00:21:33.612 So knowing about job changes, knowing about family changes, different things like that help you know, if, if I know that you've got a conference coming up, or if I know that it's the time of year because you're a principal and like what your realities are, that's also helpful in making goals. 00:21:34.122 --> 00:21:34.692 Um. 00:21:34.792 --> 00:21:38.812 And then another one is shut up and write sessions. 00:21:39.472 --> 00:21:41.957 Have you participated in any shut up and write sessions? 00:21:43.222 --> 00:21:43.732 Jethro Jones: Yes. 00:21:43.762 --> 00:21:50.062 Uh, I have participated in many of these because I've been part of many writing groups, uh, national Novel Writing Month. 00:21:50.062 --> 00:21:51.202 I've done that a couple years. 00:21:51.562 --> 00:21:55.577 Um, and then also for my own books, the way that I wrote those is. 00:21:56.457 --> 00:21:59.037 Largely using this format except I do a little 00:21:59.237 --> 00:21:59.527 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yeah. 00:22:00.027 --> 00:22:16.197 Jethro Jones: And so in one I flew, I was in Alaska and I flew down to, uh, to Seattle, and I could not go to the football game that I was there to go to until I had finished a certain number of words and then I, I needed to finish the rest of them on the way, on the plane ride back. 00:22:16.437 --> 00:22:21.447 And it was like a. A flight down six hours in Seattle and then a flight back. 00:22:21.537 --> 00:22:26.637 And uh, and I got a ton of work done because I was just locked in and focused. 00:22:26.727 --> 00:22:36.597 Um, and so then my other book, I wrote all at a retreat at my sister's cabin and I wrote 10 to 15,000 words per day, uh, for the entire week. 00:22:36.597 --> 00:22:39.177 And I threw out a whole 15,000 word. 00:22:39.417 --> 00:22:39.837 Uh. 00:22:40.182 --> 00:22:42.702 Not 10 to 10 to 15,000 pages words. 00:22:42.702 --> 00:22:52.182 I think I mis said that wrong, but I threw out a whole 15,000 word chapter, uh, that I had written while I was there because it just didn't fit in the, with the book. 00:22:52.422 --> 00:23:02.232 And sometimes you worry like, I can't get this done, but when you focus your time and you have some accountability with someone, then it does work very well to do 00:23:02.462 --> 00:23:06.237 Dr. Jayne Lammers: I, I wholeheartedly agree and I think these can be done. 00:23:06.777 --> 00:23:08.487 Uh, they are best done in person. 00:23:08.487 --> 00:23:11.757 I agree with you, like retreat kind of spaces. 00:23:11.787 --> 00:23:16.257 Uh, a colleague of mine and I at the University of Rochester, we ran. 00:23:16.682 --> 00:23:20.852 Faculty writing camp faculty and student writing camps on a regular basis. 00:23:20.852 --> 00:23:26.402 So kind of honed my practice there, uh, about how to best facilitate them. 00:23:26.402 --> 00:23:37.802 And I think some kind of separation space, um, some way to str um, put in structured break times I think helps. 00:23:38.132 --> 00:23:40.862 Um, also public goal setting. 00:23:41.472 --> 00:23:56.772 Whether that be accountability with somebody else, if you're in a physical space, like when I work at Pennsylvania, we put, you know, big sticky note paper on the wall and everybody lists their goal for that session or that day, whatever our increment is. 00:23:56.862 --> 00:24:02.592 And there is celebration involved in going up and crossing it off that you've done it. 00:24:03.012 --> 00:24:08.412 Um, and so I think shut up and write sessions can be very, very powerful. 00:24:08.577 --> 00:24:22.347 Um, when you are stuck and, and the other reason you, all of yours that you mentioned, Jethro seem to be isolated retreats and I think there's power in social writing as well. 00:24:22.617 --> 00:24:27.807 Um, because when you're in a social writing space, that's how I was successful as an academic. 00:24:28.722 --> 00:24:37.872 When you are kind of stuck and you look up and there are a bunch of other people around, you also head down with hands on laptops. 00:24:38.052 --> 00:24:38.892 It's motivating. 00:24:39.462 --> 00:24:46.602 Um, and it, it's really helpful if you've given up this time and this carved out this space. 00:24:46.932 --> 00:24:48.072 To just block it out. 00:24:48.072 --> 00:24:57.942 And I, I think there's a lot of good that can be done with touching your dissertation or your writing project every day in at least a small amount of increments. 00:24:58.272 --> 00:25:03.852 But there's real power in dedicated, you know, separate, shut up and write sessions as well. 00:25:05.682 --> 00:25:06.912 Jethro Jones: Yeah, absolutely. 00:25:07.362 --> 00:25:07.842 Okay. 00:25:07.992 --> 00:25:09.312 Uh, good. 00:25:09.312 --> 00:25:09.732 What else? 00:25:10.002 --> 00:25:13.062 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Last one I'll plug is a peer exchange. 00:25:13.122 --> 00:25:18.762 And this one I learned by doing in my own doctoral program at Arizona State. 00:25:19.122 --> 00:25:25.152 We had a group, um, we were, we are now the grad school sisterhood. 00:25:25.212 --> 00:25:27.402 We remain connected since then. 00:25:27.432 --> 00:25:32.622 'cause those bonds that get formed when you finish a dissertation together are really powerful. 00:25:33.102 --> 00:25:45.522 And we had a mantra of leave, no dissertate behind, and we just banded together and decided we were all going to finish and we would swap papers with each other. 00:25:46.122 --> 00:25:52.092 And you might think, wait a second, it's taken every ounce of extra time. 00:25:52.092 --> 00:25:55.212 I have to even get my own done. 00:25:55.212 --> 00:25:57.942 I don't have time to look at somebody else's. 00:25:59.142 --> 00:26:12.462 But I would argue, and I have found in my own experience and with my students when they finally take me up on this, that when you can look at somebody else's, there's power in seeing a different mentor text. 00:26:12.492 --> 00:26:22.722 There's power in separating yourself from the role of author and researcher and creator, and instead being a reviewer or feedback giver. 00:26:23.487 --> 00:26:29.637 You then learn more, and then you can take that learning back to your own document and your own work. 00:26:30.027 --> 00:26:36.087 So there's real benefit to exchanging papers with people. 00:26:36.117 --> 00:26:38.937 It also gives you another layer of accountability. 00:26:38.937 --> 00:26:49.497 If you've set up within your group, say, okay, by next week I'm gonna have these 10 pages done, or chapter, you know, three done, or whatever it is. 00:26:50.292 --> 00:26:52.032 You know, give me yours. 00:26:52.032 --> 00:26:58.752 You look at mine, and then we, we swap and give each other feedback so you can learn a lot from the feedback giving. 00:26:59.622 --> 00:27:03.312 You can learn a lot from seeing others and it helps you with accountability. 00:27:03.312 --> 00:27:03.762 It does. 00:27:03.792 --> 00:27:05.412 It is not a waste of time. 00:27:05.412 --> 00:27:06.732 It is very worthwhile. 00:27:08.232 --> 00:27:08.592 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:27:09.282 --> 00:27:10.062 Uh, very. 00:27:10.362 --> 00:27:11.082 Very good. 00:27:11.142 --> 00:27:19.332 And, um, the peer exchanges piece, uh, is, is really tough if you haven't done it. 00:27:19.662 --> 00:27:22.362 But once you have, you're like, oh, that was actually really good. 00:27:22.362 --> 00:27:24.642 I learned some things that I can use in mine. 00:27:24.942 --> 00:27:35.292 I can give some good feedback that makes me feel good, that I am not like just struggling through my own thing by myself, that I actually have learned some things that I can share with others. 00:27:35.622 --> 00:27:37.487 Um, so there are. 00:27:37.947 --> 00:27:44.367 Uh, next steps I wanna hear about what you have to offer and how people can get in touch. 00:27:44.637 --> 00:27:51.897 I do want to say for what I'm doing right now, I've taken a lot of your ideas and. 00:27:52.227 --> 00:27:59.577 Done a cheapo not as good version with my Dagger accountability group for doctoral students. 00:27:59.817 --> 00:28:07.347 And what this group that I created was basically a way for me to make sure that I have the accountability that I need. 00:28:07.347 --> 00:28:08.307 ' cause I know I need this. 00:28:08.307 --> 00:28:13.647 I didn't know you did this when I created this, but now that I do, I'm like, okay, this is good. 00:28:13.917 --> 00:28:14.427 So. 00:28:14.742 --> 00:28:21.732 If you are interested at the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org, you can get a hit that link to join the Dagger Doc support group. 00:28:22.122 --> 00:28:24.912 And I will you, you're welcome to join that. 00:28:25.332 --> 00:28:27.282 This is intentionally no meetings. 00:28:27.312 --> 00:28:31.122 'cause I do not want, I don't want to be a coach on this 'cause I need the coaching. 00:28:31.387 --> 00:28:34.687 But I needed accountability also, so I created this. 00:28:34.807 --> 00:28:36.487 So it's totally free for me. 00:28:36.577 --> 00:28:38.437 But you charge for your services as well? 00:28:38.437 --> 00:28:41.077 You should, but I'm not offering anything special here. 00:28:41.077 --> 00:28:48.937 This is automated questions that go out asking how you're doing, and I said, and I say in the form like, I don't want another meeting. 00:28:49.117 --> 00:28:50.917 So that's not what I'm offering. 00:28:51.157 --> 00:28:54.877 But if you just need a little push, which is what I needed, you can join that. 00:28:54.907 --> 00:28:57.997 But tell us how people can get in touch with you and join your 00:28:58.362 --> 00:29:01.152 Dr. Jayne Lammers: And before I do that, Jethro, let me ask you this. 00:29:01.452 --> 00:29:04.302 Why do you think a coach might be necessary? 00:29:04.302 --> 00:29:07.392 When, when is a coach helpful versus when is a coach? 00:29:07.392 --> 00:29:13.632 Not because, because I think, you know, you're onto something, you have you, you're offering something to people. 00:29:14.322 --> 00:29:17.802 What, what makes you think a coach might be something helpful for some 00:29:18.312 --> 00:29:27.012 Jethro Jones: Well, I know that I need a coach because I need someone who's been there and done it to say, this is what needs to happen because. 00:29:27.837 --> 00:29:33.057 I, my professors are gonna tell me what they think and what they think is gonna work. 00:29:33.057 --> 00:29:37.737 And I have to play the political and bureaucratic game to accomplish what I need to, to get it done. 00:29:38.067 --> 00:29:50.547 But I also need someone who can say, uh, that part really is not that important, and it's okay to not put 10 hours into that even though your professor said you really should, because that part actually doesn't matter all that much. 00:29:50.637 --> 00:29:52.587 Uh, also somebody who can say. 00:29:53.217 --> 00:29:56.517 What you're gonna do, stats yourself, that's dumb. 00:29:56.727 --> 00:30:00.357 Why don't you pay this guy 10 bucks to do the stats for you? 00:30:00.567 --> 00:30:02.667 Go hire someone to do that work. 00:30:02.937 --> 00:30:04.197 Why are you doing this? 00:30:04.197 --> 00:30:05.937 You should be paying someone to do this. 00:30:05.937 --> 00:30:07.167 Why are you perforating it? 00:30:07.167 --> 00:30:12.027 You should pay an editor to do it, which is what I did with my books, and that was a easy. 00:30:12.497 --> 00:30:20.207 Thing to decide, but some of those things I'm not totally sure about, that someone who could be a coach would be much more beneficial. 00:30:20.477 --> 00:30:26.147 And so I know that I need a coach and 'cause all the things that I've done that have worked. 00:30:26.177 --> 00:30:31.967 Starting my podcast, I went and found a coach starting my business, I found a business coach writing my books. 00:30:31.967 --> 00:30:33.077 I found a writing coach. 00:30:33.077 --> 00:30:44.877 Like I just know the power of having a coach and having someone else who can say, here's, here's a shortcut, here's a system, here's a. A thing to think about that you might not have thought about before. 00:30:45.177 --> 00:30:49.887 Those things are definitely needed and I encourage people to go find those, whatever they're doing. 00:30:49.992 --> 00:30:50.712 Dr. Jayne Lammers: I love that. 00:30:50.712 --> 00:30:53.442 Jethro, you're, you're a great salesperson for coaching. 00:30:53.442 --> 00:30:54.252 I, I think, 00:30:54.477 --> 00:30:54.837 Jethro Jones: Let's go 00:30:54.882 --> 00:30:55.572 Dr. Jayne Lammers: yeah, let's go. 00:30:55.572 --> 00:30:56.142 Let's do it. 00:30:56.382 --> 00:31:04.812 And I think that, uh, another thing that a coach, like as you're thinking about it, like, do I have the time for something else, for a coach? 00:31:04.812 --> 00:31:07.002 Do I have the money for a coach? 00:31:07.212 --> 00:31:11.832 As you're evaluating that, I would invite you and your listeners to think about like, what are the. 00:31:12.007 --> 00:31:13.267 Opportunity costs. 00:31:13.267 --> 00:31:19.117 Like what are you missing out on by having this dissertation hang over your head for long term? 00:31:19.242 --> 00:31:19.872 Jethro Jones: Yes. 00:31:20.017 --> 00:31:27.727 Dr. Jayne Lammers: people get to this independent stage and it, and they languish or they take a lot longer than they wanted to, right? 00:31:27.877 --> 00:31:31.117 And so I would ask you to think about what are you missing out on? 00:31:31.477 --> 00:31:36.187 What could you be doing once this dissertation is behind you? 00:31:36.612 --> 00:31:38.142 Maybe that's personal. 00:31:38.172 --> 00:31:48.402 Maybe you're thinking about family, maybe you're thinking about all the times that you feel like, ugh, you can't be fully president present at the basketball game for your kids. 00:31:48.402 --> 00:31:57.012 You can't really do that strategic initiative at your school that you've been dying to implement because you've got this dissertation hanging over your head. 00:31:57.492 --> 00:32:02.442 So I, I think a coach, um, when you run the, the cost benefit analysis. 00:32:02.777 --> 00:32:09.737 I think you'll find that coaching, um, and getting involved in some sort of accountability is really helpful. 00:32:09.737 --> 00:32:19.757 So if fe people want to, um, get involved in some of my services, you are going to link my website to the show notes. 00:32:19.757 --> 00:32:22.727 So my website is the best way, Jayne lammers.com. 00:32:23.357 --> 00:32:24.377 I kept it simple. 00:32:24.737 --> 00:32:29.207 Um, and you can find me, you can hear, uh, you can read more about it. 00:32:29.207 --> 00:32:30.527 You, I've got some testimonial. 00:32:31.982 --> 00:32:33.027 I screwed up that word. 00:32:33.177 --> 00:32:44.787 I've got some testimonials on there from past students as they talk about things that I do, like the weekly accountability group meetings, writing sessions, things like that. 00:32:45.117 --> 00:32:47.967 I am able to work virtually. 00:32:48.277 --> 00:32:53.827 I'd be happy to do workshops or things like that for programs. 00:32:53.827 --> 00:33:10.537 I've been doing some of those things, so if listeners maybe want to pass my, uh, contact information on to their programs, and I do workshops for faculty members to help them set up these systems for their own students. 00:33:10.837 --> 00:33:14.677 And I also do workshops for programs and for students. 00:33:15.057 --> 00:33:18.087 Um, as well on how to be successful. 00:33:18.687 --> 00:33:20.757 So all of these are available. 00:33:20.907 --> 00:33:29.277 My LinkedIn is another place to find out more about what I'm thinking about in the world of ai, ed, tech, and all things. 00:33:30.952 --> 00:33:31.402 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:33:31.432 --> 00:33:32.092 Very good. 00:33:32.092 --> 00:33:36.142 And uh, so go to the website, Jayne lambs.com. 00:33:36.232 --> 00:33:36.472 Is that 00:33:36.507 --> 00:33:36.897 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Yep. 00:33:37.602 --> 00:33:37.932 Jethro Jones: Okay. 00:33:38.162 --> 00:33:39.342 Jayne lammers.com. 00:33:39.552 --> 00:33:41.292 And there's a link to that in the show notes. 00:33:41.292 --> 00:33:42.282 You can go check it out. 00:33:42.642 --> 00:33:59.862 Um, and so my, my last question is typically about how to be a great leader, but this, today I am gonna ask you, what's one thing that someone who is in a doctoral program can do this week to get one step closer to being done with their dissertation? 00:34:01.182 --> 00:34:02.817 Dr. Jayne Lammers: Set up a system of accountability. 00:34:04.992 --> 00:34:05.502 Jethro Jones: Okay. 00:34:05.742 --> 00:34:06.162 Boom. 00:34:06.207 --> 00:34:09.237 Dr. Jayne Lammers: some sort of external visibility. 00:34:09.267 --> 00:34:11.607 So whether that's a coach, a group. 00:34:11.892 --> 00:34:16.482 Something, set up some accountability that gets you from here to complete. 00:34:19.602 --> 00:34:19.872 I like it. 00:34:19.872 --> 00:34:20.442 Jethro Jones: like it. 00:34:20.472 --> 00:34:20.802 All right. 00:34:20.802 --> 00:34:26.502 Once again, that's Jayne lammers.com and you can find that in the show notes@transformerprinciple.org. 00:34:26.862 --> 00:34:31.662 Uh, this has been a great conversation and I'm excited to start working with you. 00:34:31.692 --> 00:34:32.662 So thank you, Jayne. 00:34:32.682 --> 00:34:33.312 Appreciate it. 00:34:33.432 --> 00:34:34.062 Dr. Jayne Lammers: You, Jethro. 00:34:34.062 --> 00:34:36.132 It's been a pleasure to talk with you about this. 00:34:36.132 --> 00:34:36.162 I.