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Jonn Elledge: I think World War Two is
a big part of our national psychosis.

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That was a point in which Britain
was unequivocally on the right side.

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And it basically burnt up its empire
and its status as a global power to

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help save the world from fascism.

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But it means that that's kind of
the narrative we get instead of the

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reckoning with the end of empire.

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And yeah, I think that does
explain not quite all but almost

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all of the politics of Brexit.

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Isabelle Roughol: Hi, I'm Isabelle
Roughol and this is Borderline.

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My friend Jonn Elledge joins
us on the podcast today.

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Jonn is the man that you want
on your team at pub quiz.

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One that you will never be bored
sitting opposite at a dinner party

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and that you definitely want in
your Twitter feed and in your inbox.

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He is the author of The Compendium
of Not Quite Everything, a really fun

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book full of short essays about...

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not quite everything.

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Jonn is just someone who knows
a lot about a lot of things.

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And I brought him on the podcast thinking,
I'm not quite sure what we'll talk about,

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but I'm sure it's going to be interesting.

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And of course it did end up fascinating.

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He an Englishman, me a French woman,
we ended up comparing our national

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mythologies, the legacies of our
empires and why our national malaise

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feels quite similar in both countries.

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He even managed to maybe wade into a
topic I usually back away from slowly

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and that's explaining differences
between French universalism and British

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multiculturalism or US multiculturalism.

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So a conversation freewheeling
in a lot of different areas

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that ends up being fascinating.

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We talked for over an hour.

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I cut a bit.

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But honestly, on a conversation like
this, if you start making cuts in

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the middle, you really don't know
how you got from point A to point B.

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So this is a one-hour episode.

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You can enjoy it at your own pace.

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I think you won't regret it.

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Here's my chat with Jonn Elledge.

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Jonn Elledge: Hello,

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Isabelle Roughol: I have to make a
confession, which is it is the first

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time in my career, definitely the career
of this podcast, that I scheduled an

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interview no idea exactly where I want to
take it but but I feel like we're going to

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end up somewhere fascinating in any way.

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Jonn Elledge: also, I I'm,
I'm just chatting nonsense

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is, is kinda my, my, my main

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Isabelle Roughol: well,
that's, that's wonderful.

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So, because of the topic of this
podcast, which you're familiar

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with, I immediately jumped to the
section on, section two, I believe

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on, on all the countries and the...

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It's called the human planet and the
ligns we draw on it, which for a podcast

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called Borderline is, is delightful.

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And learned a bunch of stuff.

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I don't even know which one is start with.

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I was, and, that's, that's the marginalia
that you saw me posting on Twitter

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that seemed to have pleased you, but
I was amused to note in the largest

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countries and the smallest countries
that it is one of the world's smallest

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country where one of the world's
largest countries has dumped all

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the immigrants that it doesn't want.

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Um, namely, the island of Nauru,
which hosts Australia's offshore

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detention centers for migrants.

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So that was a nice little tidbit.

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there.

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Jonn Elledge: I didn't, realize that.

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That's horrific there.

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that is, that is cause it's I mean,
Australia is not, not short of space.

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Isabelle Roughol: No, it's not.

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it's adopted policies, you know, 10, 10,
15 years back now, that our own Priti

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Patel is inspired by and would delight in
which is refusing any arrival by, by boat,

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any, asylum seeker to Australian shores.

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So they are captured and kept in detention
centers on the Pacific island of Nauru,

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which has signed a deal with Australia.

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A very, very poor country, obviously.

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Very, very, few industries and,
and very impacted by climate change

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so, the one thing that they have
is a, is an Australian detention

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center where people can spend years
and years in horrid condition.

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Jonn Elledge: I was going to, I was
going to say, I mean, it, it, it, it

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is one of those countries that might
literally physically cease to exist.

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Isn't it?

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on the those could be just be
under the waves by the end of the

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Isabelle Roughol: Which you
would think would give Australia

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a motivation to address climate
change, I guess if nothing else.

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Jonn Elledge: But this is, this
is kind of the horror of this

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kind of politics though, is like.

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It's you do kind of think that maybe
that's, part of the sort of the, the, the,

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this is the opposite virtue signaling,
vermin-signaling someone was called it.

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It's deliberately incredibly
supervillain and horrible.

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Cause that's how, how our, if the
Australian government wants to

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communicate to its, to its voters that
it's being tough on, on, on immigration

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and tough on, on, on refugees, which
is like the the idea that we would

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ever want to be tough and refugees
is coming with quite seen in itself.

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but just like the idea of dumping
people on an island that is going to be

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underwater possibly in our lifetimes.

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it's just that it's that it's proper
kind of James Bond villain shit.

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Isn't

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it.

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Isabelle Roughol: It's something
that I had never heard about until

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I moved to Australia a few years ago
is very little covered in Europe.

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Even though we talk about immigration
policy a lot, but we don't necessarily

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see how it's done elsewhere.

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Jonn Elledge: Yeah.

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It's I mean, I mean, particularly,
particularly, but I suspect there is

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an element of it in much of Europe too.

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Like we're quite, we're so sort of
insular, we kind of look a little, we look

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to the U S and see what's going on there,
maybe a little bit from, from so Germany.

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but often, or a little bit from Australia,
but like most we have no idea what's

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going on in most countries in the world.

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And suspect that's probably actually
like, I wonder how true that is of

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a lot of other, I mean, I suppose if
you're, if you're Luxembourg, then, then

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you kind of have to be more aware of,
of what's going on around the place.

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And also you probably don't have
that much of your own news to worry

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about, I suspect that kind of, the
tendency to be kind of focused on a

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relatively small pool of countries and
be completely ignorant about what the

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others I suspect is, is fairly universal.

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Maybe.

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Isabelle Roughol: is at least, um,
it's funny you should say that.

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cause it's a, it's a journalistic
project I have a four

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Borderline of a new newsletter.

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You'll you'll hear it here first.

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I don't know when that's going
to come out, but to do precisely

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that, kind of comparative, study
of, of what's going on in the news.

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at least in all the, countries I've
lived in it's, it's pretty insular.

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some less than other, you know, in,
in, certainly in continental Europe,

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you get more news somewhat of the
rest of Europe, but not really.

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it was fascinating in Australia
that they are obsessed with

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American news in many ways.

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so, you would hear about some random
crime in Florida, it's always in Florida.

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but not about, you know, very neighboring
countries and in Asia Pacific.

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Jonn Elledge: I think that's, I mean,
I think, again, I suspect this is an

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obsession with the U s is fairly, fairly
universal, but I think that's probably,

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I'm not sure that's actually irrational.

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Like it's.

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I mean, one can argue about
what or how one defines.

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Yeah.

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I was going to say empire and boss
pay too strongly, but certainly

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hegemon . It is a hegemonic power.

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What happens in the U S what happens
in, in Washington DC and, you know, the

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presidential elections in us foreign
policy and so on, does have an impact

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on, on the rest of us in a way that
not that many countries politics do.

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I mean, obviously lighting much of
Europe would have been paying a lot

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of attention to the recent German
elections, for example, but, but

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most countries elections are not that
relevant to most of the countries.

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Uh, whereas obviously American
elections are going to have

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an impact on the rest of us.

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So I suspect between that and the kind
of the, the cultural dominance of, of

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us products, means that I suspect that
kind of spills over into like paying

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attention to kind of wacky crimes
in Florida and that kind of thing.

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Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, perhaps, perhaps.

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Jonn Elledge: But it is, this helped
keep track of how many is it now?

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27 different countries in you.

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And plus like all the peripheral
runs as, as the UK, sadly

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husband, has been relegated to.

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you can't keep track of all these things
and fundamentally what the exact state

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of the Slovenian government is, is
probably not going to impact your life.

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Isabelle Roughol: Fair enough.

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Jonn Elledge: So, yeah, I mean, I
don't think it's that weird that...

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do think it's appalling that we
don't know in this, in this country.

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I think there's appalling we don't
pay more attention to, to particularly

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French and German politics because
that obviously they, they, you

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know, be two big players in the EU.

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And I think it's, it's insane how little,
how ignorant people were about how,

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how the institutions of the European
Union work and what, what, what the work

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going on in Brussels was actually is.

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and I don't think that's, I don't
think that that's very far from

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the only reason we ended up with
Brexit, but I do think that.

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kind of ignorance, which people could
project their kind of worst fears onto,

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was, was a big factor in where, why,
why there was such high levels of, of

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your skepticism in this country that

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Isabelle Roughol: Certainly helped on
by, by national politicians and and.

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Britain is bad, but, but certainly not
the only one that's guilty of this.

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certainly seen it in French politics a
lot where, because people know so little

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about how EU institutions work, it's
very convenient when something unpopular

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has to happen or, you know, a politician
doesn't get their way, blame Brussels, So

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to speak, to blame the EU, because it's,
it's very convenient, in in election time.

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And we we're, we're reaping
the, the consequences of

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that even on the continent.

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Though, I have to say that, what
y'all have done here has, pulled

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back or, or, or slowed the tide of
Euro skepticism on the continent

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because, it's not, it's not looking
so good what Brexit looks looks like.

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Jonn Elledge: Yeah,
honestly, that's great.

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I always want it to be a cautionary tale.

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Isabelle Roughol: No, it was good.

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Jonn Elledge: I mean, one of the things
I find it's one of the things I find

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fascinating about Brexit and where it's
taking British politics is it did take

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that vote to kind of generate a proper
pro European movement in this country.

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and, and, you know, that's, that's
obviously a, a minority, even of the

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the people who voted remain is quite a
small minority, but nonetheless, I think

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there are a lot more people in Britain
who would consider themselves kind of

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ardently pro European, then the word
before that referendum, in a fetlock good,

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it's done this, but I do kind of wonder.

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The these things do sometimes
kind of have unexpected

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consequences over the longer term.

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Don't they like, they're loving the
protest against the Iraq war didn't stop

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the Iraq war, but then they'd help other
movements, other protest movements.

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So I do see the wonder, what would happen
to all that kind of energy from like

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the sort of the waivers, the society mad
FBPE people, or just kind of this sort of

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it, or just the way it sort of energize
liberalism more generally in this country?

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I think, I do think that there's
probably going to be playing out in

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politics for, for, for quite a long time.

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It's just to be able to see it right now
because we have this horribly liberatory

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government of an 80-seat majority.

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Isabelle Roughol: Those FBP
people we should, we should tell.

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not everyone listening will know,
especially to non Brits who, who they are.

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They're I don't even know who they are,
but I know they retweet me a lot and

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they're very active in my mentions.

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Jonn Elledge: Yeah, it's a hashtag.

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It stands for, it stands.

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FPP stands for fullback pro Europe.

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It's a lot of effort went
into that, into that acronym.

00:11:50.212 --> 00:11:50.512
Didn't it?

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but it's, it's, it's just people who
sit on Twitter all day being like

00:11:55.102 --> 00:11:57.322
angrily, anti Brexit and pre repair.

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And like I'm, I've always considered
myself very pro European by the founders

00:12:02.062 --> 00:12:05.602
of this country and the like, I I'd
be quite up for European superstate.

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I'd be quite for world superstar.

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I think that's probably the way we need
to go to solve some of our problems.

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I have no issue with the idea of like
handing sovereignty over to Brussels.

00:12:14.422 --> 00:12:17.242
nonetheless, these people are a
bit too pro-European for my taste.

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It's a bit Colby.

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Isabelle Roughol: Which is,
which is saying something.

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Perhaps I'm a bit, unquestioning
of everything EU, good, everything

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current British government bad, which.

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Jonn Elledge: Yeah, exactly that.

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And it's like, I think this
country has been absolutely.

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It is an absolute disaster zone
at the moment, but there are still

00:12:38.322 --> 00:12:41.532
things about this country that
are, those are okay or even good.

00:12:41.892 --> 00:12:44.322
And there are things about
bits of continental Europe

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that's not working very well.

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And there are things about like bras
was, is quite dysfunctional in many ways.

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And I don't think you have to, I don't
think it's helpful to kind of like, just

00:12:53.502 --> 00:12:57.552
start reading one side is as good in
the other side, this is always terrible.

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I, I don't think that's
needed to understanding.

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Isabelle Roughol: So you mentioned
a superstate, I'm a, I'm a bit of a

00:13:03.128 --> 00:13:07.798
Federalist definitely, where Europe
is concerned, but w world superstate.

00:13:07.828 --> 00:13:11.548
Tell, tell me more about that
and why is that a solution?

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Jonn Elledge: Oh, I just mean, so, so
a lot of this is, is just being a nerd

00:13:18.467 --> 00:13:21.737
and having grown up on a diet of like
TVs science fiction like  star Trek

00:13:21.737 --> 00:13:25.787
or whatever, where like, you know, if
you have like shows with spaceships

00:13:25.787 --> 00:13:28.517
in set several hundred years in the
future, and they do tend to take it

00:13:28.607 --> 00:13:32.507
for granted that, that at some point
there will be a, a single world state.

00:13:33.187 --> 00:13:33.847
And partly that's

00:13:33.847 --> 00:13:37.717
because otherwise you're gonna, it's
gonna complicate your plot mechanics.

00:13:38.137 --> 00:13:41.527
But also it's because a lot of
these shows tend to sort of use

00:13:41.647 --> 00:13:43.017
different alien races and so on.

00:13:43.027 --> 00:13:45.317
It's kind of like a metaphors
for foreign policy and so on.

00:13:45.317 --> 00:13:47.437
And so earth is basically
space America, isn't it.

00:13:48.157 --> 00:13:51.727
But nonetheless, that kind of, that
does just sort of mean that's always on

00:13:51.727 --> 00:13:54.007
some level in my vision of the future.

00:13:54.547 --> 00:13:57.847
I think there are problems we
face that we come and solve at

00:13:57.937 --> 00:13:59.497
at national level, like low.

00:14:01.077 --> 00:14:04.837
The, if you kind of look at sort of
trying to manage, like this is a massive

00:14:04.837 --> 00:14:09.177
global tech companies, that are bigger and
richer and more powerful than most actual

00:14:09.177 --> 00:14:15.077
nation states, I don't think that the
architecture of 194 nation states isn't

00:14:15.077 --> 00:14:16.647
necessarily the best way of doing that.

00:14:17.427 --> 00:14:19.527
and there are times when
collective action is needed.

00:14:19.527 --> 00:14:20.907
Like climate change is number one.

00:14:21.507 --> 00:14:22.657
there are, there are problems.

00:14:22.657 --> 00:14:26.887
I think we face that will be easier
to solve if you didn't have different

00:14:26.887 --> 00:14:30.382
countries of, racing, competing  in
a race to the bottom, basically.

00:14:30.952 --> 00:14:32.932
but this is, this is
an absolute pipe dream.

00:14:32.962 --> 00:14:35.992
This is not me saying this is where
I think things are actually going to

00:14:35.992 --> 00:14:38.512
go, this has always been like this.

00:14:38.512 --> 00:14:42.472
This was a factor in why I've always
been instinctively pro European, as,

00:14:42.472 --> 00:14:44.832
you know, as someone who like, I, I.

00:14:45.452 --> 00:14:47.252
Seven years of school learning French.

00:14:47.252 --> 00:14:48.392
And I can barely speak a word.

00:14:48.392 --> 00:14:49.652
I can just about read newspaper.

00:14:50.232 --> 00:14:51.712
I have no European languages.

00:14:51.772 --> 00:14:53.662
I've never lived anywhere else or the UK.

00:14:54.452 --> 00:14:58.232
I'm quite parochial in many ways, but
I've always instinctually been quite

00:14:58.232 --> 00:14:59.642
sort of internationalist and outlook.

00:14:59.642 --> 00:15:02.192
And I think this is basically
I'm blaming star Trek for that.

00:15:03.608 --> 00:15:05.268
Isabelle Roughol: Maybe that's
what we should do then in

00:15:05.318 --> 00:15:07.598
schools and teach star Trek,

00:15:08.138 --> 00:15:10.268
Jonn Elledge: that could
potentially open us up to charges

00:15:10.268 --> 00:15:11.558
of child abuse, I suspect.

00:15:11.588 --> 00:15:12.578
But, but yeah,

00:15:13.131 --> 00:15:17.291
so like, the, the nation state is it
relatively recently mentioned, isn't it?

00:15:17.351 --> 00:15:22.361
I mean, we often, a lot of our political
debate of takes it as, I mean, again,

00:15:22.571 --> 00:15:25.841
again, like being parochial until
when I say a political debate, I'm

00:15:26.591 --> 00:15:28.031
basically talking about this country.

00:15:28.031 --> 00:15:29.351
Cause I can't read it for a newspaper.

00:15:30.041 --> 00:15:34.001
but, but I do feel like a lot of the
debate does take it as read that there

00:15:34.001 --> 00:15:36.341
is the nation is the net natural.

00:15:37.481 --> 00:15:42.141
Of, of politics and government for
much of history, that's not been true.

00:15:42.811 --> 00:15:47.131
you know, for most of history it's been,
you'd be, if you live in a city and

00:15:47.241 --> 00:15:49.081
you have city states, you have empires.

00:15:49.501 --> 00:15:53.821
and there's only been, and there's, I
think at this end of Europe, and nation

00:15:53.821 --> 00:15:56.611
states slightly older, obviously both
in Britain and France are more than a

00:15:56.611 --> 00:15:58.321
thousand years old and Scotland too.

00:15:59.161 --> 00:16:01.531
that's even in Europe, that's
quite unusual, isn't it like a

00:16:01.691 --> 00:16:02.381
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, and

00:16:02.431 --> 00:16:04.201
Jonn Elledge: lot of European
nations are only a century or

00:16:04.361 --> 00:16:07.151
Isabelle Roughol: I don't think
you could even, you know, define

00:16:07.151 --> 00:16:09.791
Frances a nation state until.

00:16:11.786 --> 00:16:13.766
Napoleon, maybe like

00:16:14.666 --> 00:16:15.806
before that is kind

00:16:15.806 --> 00:16:15.986
of,

00:16:16.111 --> 00:16:16.291
Jonn Elledge: they?

00:16:17.156 --> 00:16:17.426
Isabelle Roughol: yeah.

00:16:17.456 --> 00:16:21.526
I mean, French, French is a, is the
Patois, the dialect of, you know,

00:16:21.586 --> 00:16:24.046
a tiny, tiny corner around Paris.

00:16:24.516 --> 00:16:29.376
And they were, there was, you know,
different feuding aristocracy and,

00:16:30.066 --> 00:16:34.326
the current borders of France are,
I mean, if you add, some voids,

00:16:34.356 --> 00:16:36.426
it's, you know, it's 150 years old.

00:16:36.426 --> 00:16:41.606
So, , we like to tell because you
know, nations are mainly into stories

00:16:41.606 --> 00:16:43.136
to tell about themselves, right?

00:16:43.136 --> 00:16:46.356
So we'd like to,  in Britain,
you know, everyone talks about

00:16:46.356 --> 00:16:48.756
10 66 and, and all of that.

00:16:48.756 --> 00:16:52.506
and back into Carta and doomsday,
whatever I'm learning, I've only

00:16:52.506 --> 00:16:56.556
been here five years, but, but a
lot of that is, is myth, right?

00:16:56.556 --> 00:17:02.226
It's mythology to, to build a nation
more than, more than genuine history.

00:17:02.226 --> 00:17:06.756
And then you go into like the diversity
of what these nations look like.

00:17:06.756 --> 00:17:09.546
And I think a lot of people on
the right would be surprised.

00:17:10.556 --> 00:17:11.006
Jonn Elledge: Yeah.

00:17:11.036 --> 00:17:12.746
I mean, like took new
national mythologies.

00:17:12.786 --> 00:17:18.246
It's like we talk about the,
the, the Norman invasion of 1066

00:17:18.266 --> 00:17:21.026
is kind of like the last time
England was successfully invaded.

00:17:21.596 --> 00:17:22.676
And it's an absolute lie.

00:17:22.886 --> 00:17:27.296
Like we were invaded by the Dutch in
1688, but we just rewritten history

00:17:27.296 --> 00:17:31.846
to pretend to pretend that, William
of Orange was, was invited and he was

00:17:32.236 --> 00:17:36.046
by one particular faction, which then
took power because he became king.

00:17:36.466 --> 00:17:39.556
But it's not like king had before that
the whole country was crying out to

00:17:39.556 --> 00:17:41.296
get this, to get this Dutch guy in.

00:17:41.506 --> 00:17:44.026
It was by any reasonable
definition and invasion.

00:17:44.586 --> 00:17:47.376
and we just don't, we don't talk about
it in those, in those terms at all.

00:17:47.376 --> 00:17:49.176
We just pretend it was something else.

00:17:50.161 --> 00:17:52.741
Isabelle Roughol: you know, when one
story that I, that I keep hearing in

00:17:52.741 --> 00:17:57.898
England that was driving me crazy is these
kinds of, cliches about, the, the bread.

00:17:57.898 --> 00:18:04.268
So the English specifically as, as
these, nice people who don't riot and

00:18:04.628 --> 00:18:09.008
don't, kill their Kings and Queens versus
the dangerous revolutionary French.

00:18:09.008 --> 00:18:12.668
And I actually did the math and you
guys killed a lot more kings and Queens.

00:18:12.668 --> 00:18:13.208
And so we did,

00:18:15.633 --> 00:18:16.713
Jonn Elledge: how many did we,

00:18:16.818 --> 00:18:20.958
Isabelle Roughol: I counted
to accounted to beheaded.

00:18:21.858 --> 00:18:22.638
I forget who they are.

00:18:22.638 --> 00:18:23.268
Of course.

00:18:23.878 --> 00:18:26.218
Jonn Elledge: Charles Joseph's asked
is the one is the one that everyone

00:18:26.363 --> 00:18:27.563
Isabelle Roughol: yes, that's the one.

00:18:27.668 --> 00:18:29.078
Jonn Elledge: re Richard the second.

00:18:29.078 --> 00:18:30.278
is deposed and dies.

00:18:30.278 --> 00:18:31.058
Suspiciously.

00:18:31.058 --> 00:18:33.038
I think the same is true
of Edward the second.

00:18:33.908 --> 00:18:35.168
there's a lot of that guy, but the.

00:18:36.598 --> 00:18:37.078
Yeah.

00:18:37.108 --> 00:18:38.938
There's but you're right.

00:18:38.968 --> 00:18:40.108
It's all, it's all narrative.

00:18:40.108 --> 00:18:44.318
So I did the idea of silly piece of my,
my newsletter, recently just kind of

00:18:44.318 --> 00:18:49.568
listing people who were by any reasonable
definition, consider themselves at some

00:18:49.568 --> 00:18:53.788
point the monarch of England, but we
just don't count on the lists, including,

00:18:54.008 --> 00:18:59.008
Louie abe, invaded in the 13th century
and was welcomed by the city of London

00:18:59.008 --> 00:19:03.868
with open arms because, because king
Jonn was so deeply unpopular, he was

00:19:03.898 --> 00:19:08.158
absolutely hated, to the extent that like,
everyone was like quite happy to get the

00:19:08.158 --> 00:19:09.808
French king in and let him take over.

00:19:10.208 --> 00:19:13.058
we just sort of like, there was a
six month period in which Louis V8

00:19:13.058 --> 00:19:14.258
considered himself king of England.

00:19:14.318 --> 00:19:16.058
And we just, we pretend
that never happened.

00:19:17.853 --> 00:19:20.613
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, I'm sorry to
say we are, we are pretty much cousins.

00:19:20.613 --> 00:19:21.573
I'm Norman too.

00:19:21.573 --> 00:19:24.573
So, you know, from the other side of
the water, but we're, we're pretty

00:19:24.573 --> 00:19:28.563
much the same, the same people,
um, mythology, non withstanding.

00:19:30.158 --> 00:19:32.758
Jonn Elledge: yeah, I wonder how it
looks to the rest of the world, the

00:19:32.758 --> 00:19:36.658
lay like England and France, kind of
like both kind of, define themselves

00:19:36.658 --> 00:19:41.638
against each other, to some extent for
much of the last 800 years or something.

00:19:41.998 --> 00:19:44.938
but I suspect from the perspective,
much less rest of the world, they

00:19:44.938 --> 00:19:46.528
look quite historically similar.

00:19:46.528 --> 00:19:49.888
Actually, I suspect they don't look
like radically cause you know, they

00:19:49.888 --> 00:19:55.348
were both very early nation states and
then the related of Imperial powers,

00:19:55.348 --> 00:19:57.658
the women around the world doing,
doing horrible things to people.

00:19:57.968 --> 00:20:01.548
and both they're both you
know, pretty, pretty arrogant

00:20:01.568 --> 00:20:02.528
about their place in the world.

00:20:02.528 --> 00:20:02.738
Right.

00:20:03.023 --> 00:20:03.563
Isabelle Roughol: Yes.

00:20:04.043 --> 00:20:07.463
Well, it was, it was my theory when
I was, when I was living in the U S

00:20:07.493 --> 00:20:12.167
that France And the us were so often
at odds because essentially both

00:20:12.197 --> 00:20:13.937
thought way too highly of themselves.

00:20:14.307 --> 00:20:18.747
And the same can be said of, of, living
in Britain now, I think, it's, it's all

00:20:18.747 --> 00:20:23.667
of these countries with very lofty ideas
of what they represent to the world who

00:20:24.177 --> 00:20:29.547
end up quite surprised and, and hurt
in their ego when, Uh, turns out not

00:20:29.547 --> 00:20:36.387
to be the case, which it feels like
the current malaise in, in, britain.

00:20:36.837 --> 00:20:39.477
and certainly will sound very
familiar to the French as well.

00:20:40.671 --> 00:20:41.151
Jonn Elledge: Yeah.

00:20:41.181 --> 00:20:45.741
I mean, I think a lot of our problem
is we have, it's not even that

00:20:45.741 --> 00:20:47.271
we've not come to terms with empire.

00:20:47.271 --> 00:20:49.911
It's like, we just
stopped talking about it.

00:20:51.021 --> 00:20:55.131
Like I think I found this
very early on in life.

00:20:55.131 --> 00:20:56.151
Talk to Irish friends.

00:20:56.986 --> 00:21:00.946
Realizing the extent to which the
history is taught in Irish school is,

00:21:00.976 --> 00:21:05.166
is basically just a list of, English
atrocities who have used Scottish

00:21:05.166 --> 00:21:06.846
atrocities and then British atrocities.

00:21:07.596 --> 00:21:09.276
that is Irish history basically.

00:21:09.756 --> 00:21:11.106
we are not taught any of that here.

00:21:11.586 --> 00:21:14.476
And, you could, you couldn't be
because like, we were also busy,

00:21:14.576 --> 00:21:18.026
performing atrocities in, in India
and then latterly in Africa too.

00:21:19.916 --> 00:21:24.056
and, I don't, I don't know enough about
how other European Imperial powers have

00:21:24.266 --> 00:21:28.376
kind of dealt with the legacy of this
stuff, but we just do not talk about

00:21:28.376 --> 00:21:32.006
it, to the point we, at least we didn't.

00:21:32.597 --> 00:21:32.747
Isabelle Roughol: Um,

00:21:33.161 --> 00:21:33.671
Jonn Elledge: Campbell.

00:21:34.391 --> 00:21:36.761
this means we have no idea what
their own history looks like.

00:21:36.791 --> 00:21:41.021
Like the history I was taught at school,
just randomly because of the modules

00:21:41.021 --> 00:21:42.551
that were chosen by the teachers.

00:21:43.031 --> 00:21:48.161
did nothing between the execution of
Charles the first in 1649 and the rise

00:21:48.161 --> 00:21:50.881
of  Otto Von Bismarck in, in the 1860s.

00:21:51.301 --> 00:21:53.461
and there's quite a lot that
happens in those two centuries.

00:21:53.701 --> 00:21:55.741
And most of it involves going
around the world and stealing

00:21:55.741 --> 00:21:56.881
other people's countries.

00:21:56.987 --> 00:21:58.877
Isabelle Roughol: That's That's
the years of British slavery,

00:21:58.877 --> 00:22:01.517
essentially that you just skipped over.

00:22:01.831 --> 00:22:05.251
Jonn Elledge: Yeah,  it is taught
in schools that Britain, the British

00:22:05.251 --> 00:22:06.451
Navy abolished the slave trade.

00:22:06.541 --> 00:22:07.441
And that is true.

00:22:08.371 --> 00:22:11.401
It just does ignore the fact that
they also basically invented the

00:22:11.401 --> 00:22:13.571
triangular, transatlantic slave trade.

00:22:14.151 --> 00:22:14.981
and it's.

00:22:14.981 --> 00:22:18.131
Yeah, it's, we, we are just much
more comfortable with discussing

00:22:18.131 --> 00:22:19.361
certain bits of a history level.

00:22:19.381 --> 00:22:21.851
I mean, how is this the same in France.

00:22:21.881 --> 00:22:22.601
How does it

00:22:22.847 --> 00:22:23.357
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah.

00:22:23.357 --> 00:22:23.687
Yeah.

00:22:23.687 --> 00:22:25.307
It's, it's quite similar.

00:22:25.407 --> 00:22:29.307
at the moment, it's interesting because
you'll have the whole war on woke and

00:22:29.307 --> 00:22:35.077
all that has, unfortunately, crossed the
Channel after it crossed the Atlantic.

00:22:35.427 --> 00:22:38.037
And it's definitely part
of the conversation and.

00:22:39.392 --> 00:22:41.672
You know, it's something
that I realized as an adult.

00:22:41.672 --> 00:22:47.492
I, I realized that I didn't learn
anything for instance, or very little

00:22:47.492 --> 00:22:50.562
in school about the Algerian war.

00:22:51.032 --> 00:22:55.742
you know, I, I know that it was a peace
treaty in 1962 and that, know, that

00:22:55.742 --> 00:22:59.532
was, that was, thanks to De Gaulle or
at least that's how it's presented.

00:22:59.952 --> 00:23:05.352
but you know, torture colonization, we
learned very little about colonization,

00:23:05.832 --> 00:23:08.892
you know, besides, oh, you know, it
was a different time and it wasn't

00:23:08.962 --> 00:23:11.662
immoral at the time, which, you
actually, you could argue plenty

00:23:11.662 --> 00:23:13.342
of people it immoral at the time.

00:23:13.912 --> 00:23:20.592
And during the 2017 campaign,
Macron called, called colonialism

00:23:20.592 --> 00:23:21.852
a crime against humanity.

00:23:22.602 --> 00:23:25.752
and it was quite a lot of
outrage about that, which, which

00:23:25.752 --> 00:23:27.492
I found fascinating because.

00:23:28.677 --> 00:23:33.117
I it from a family that was involved,
my grandfather was in a colonial

00:23:33.117 --> 00:23:36.057
administration, obviously not in
a colonizing time, more in the

00:23:36.567 --> 00:23:38.157
final years before independence.

00:23:38.157 --> 00:23:42.597
and and he stayed on in Africa in a,
in a first decade of independence to,

00:23:42.597 --> 00:23:44.727
to work with, with local governments.

00:23:45.207 --> 00:23:48.927
And in a family like mine,
it was not shocking at all.

00:23:48.957 --> 00:23:52.317
Like we have perfectly come to terms
with the fact that colonization was

00:23:52.317 --> 00:23:57.437
wrong and that in that particular
case, you know, my grandfather was

00:23:58.817 --> 00:24:01.517
saw he was doing the right thing,
but was on the wrong side of history.

00:24:01.907 --> 00:24:07.987
But I think people who don't have
a closer knowledge of what, what

00:24:07.997 --> 00:24:12.667
the empire was in a way, all they
have in their head is the mess.

00:24:12.727 --> 00:24:17.137
and the very little that they got
about it in school and very warped

00:24:17.287 --> 00:24:19.897
imagery that they got through
through media and through culture.

00:24:20.377 --> 00:24:25.777
And so the notion is there's a word in
the public discourse in France, and the

00:24:25.777 --> 00:24:28.907
knowledge I'll stop, but there's a word
in a public discourse in france called

00:24:28.907 --> 00:24:37.207
the hood portals, which is, like you
know, being overly, sorry, and repenting

00:24:37.237 --> 00:24:39.547
for things that you've done in the past.

00:24:39.547 --> 00:24:42.607
And essentially people think that's
awful and that you shouldn't do it.

00:24:42.607 --> 00:24:45.337
And that, you know, what's in the
past is in the past and let's move

00:24:45.337 --> 00:24:47.887
on without ever apologizing for it.

00:24:48.097 --> 00:24:50.647
Which I find just, I it's nothing.

00:24:50.707 --> 00:24:52.747
it's something, I mean, it's been
in the discourse since I was a

00:24:52.747 --> 00:24:53.947
child and I never understood.

00:24:53.947 --> 00:24:57.157
I was like, if you've done something
bad, you should apologize for it.

00:24:57.157 --> 00:24:58.027
That's what people do.

00:24:58.027 --> 00:24:58.267
Right.

00:24:59.657 --> 00:25:00.947
it's quite confusing to me.

00:25:01.723 --> 00:25:04.383
Jonn Elledge: Yeah,  it smacks
of insecurity, doesn't it?

00:25:04.403 --> 00:25:07.893
Like if you think your country is
so great, then why can't you accept

00:25:07.893 --> 00:25:14.263
that, that there are times that it
got stuff wrong, like, and it just,

00:25:14.283 --> 00:25:18.333
I don't quite understand the sense
of that, that level of sensitivity

00:25:18.333 --> 00:25:23.793
that means you call, except for that,
that the history is, is, has, has bad

00:25:23.793 --> 00:25:25.083
stuff in it as well as good, you know?

00:25:25.443 --> 00:25:25.683
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah.

00:25:25.683 --> 00:25:29.733
I mean, the reaction in this country
to any suggestion that Winston

00:25:29.733 --> 00:25:33.963
Churchill was not just a hero of World
War II, but it was also profoundly

00:25:33.963 --> 00:25:36.183
reviled in India for his role there.

00:25:36.533 --> 00:25:40.283
you know, the idea that there might be
more than one side to the character, seems

00:25:40.283 --> 00:25:45.963
to really shock people, just like the,
um, the National Trust report, about the

00:25:45.963 --> 00:25:51.023
connection of slavery, of, of some of
these beautiful estates to, to slavery and

00:25:51.038 --> 00:25:51.158
Jonn Elledge: yeah.

00:25:51.503 --> 00:25:52.943
Isabelle Roughol: and
to the colonial trade.

00:25:53.633 --> 00:25:56.603
it's like, it's impossible to hold
two ideas in your head at the same

00:25:56.603 --> 00:26:00.263
time that someone can be a hero
and a villain or something can be

00:26:00.263 --> 00:26:02.183
beautiful and extremely tainted.

00:26:02.908 --> 00:26:06.298
Jonn Elledge: So I think, I think
world war two is, as you will know,

00:26:06.298 --> 00:26:10.258
having lived in this country for five
years, will go to is, is a big part

00:26:10.258 --> 00:26:15.058
of our national psychosis just, and
they think it's that, you know, that

00:26:15.058 --> 00:26:16.878
that was a point in which Britain.

00:26:18.448 --> 00:26:22.798
You know, obviously we, we did the w
there were plenty of things that we got

00:26:22.798 --> 00:26:25.978
wrong as well, but in the, in Britain
was was unequivocally on the right

00:26:25.978 --> 00:26:31.678
side and it did a good thing, and it,
it basically burnt up its, its empire

00:26:31.678 --> 00:26:36.898
and its status as a global power to,
to help save the world from fascism.

00:26:37.558 --> 00:26:39.058
and so that becomes the narrative.

00:26:39.208 --> 00:26:41.878
Like we say, like, because we, because
Britain was never occupied in the

00:26:41.878 --> 00:26:45.238
way France was, we didn't have, we
didn't have a lot of the horror.

00:26:45.238 --> 00:26:49.048
So it's seen, it's recently treated
as a bit of a sort the theme park.

00:26:49.738 --> 00:26:53.578
but, but it means that that's kind
of the narrative we get instead of

00:26:53.578 --> 00:26:54.958
the reckoning with the end of empire.

00:26:55.288 --> 00:26:57.988
Like, we don't talk about the end
of empire because it just kind

00:26:57.988 --> 00:27:01.738
of like faded away during and
immediately after world war II.

00:27:02.398 --> 00:27:03.388
so, so instead of.

00:27:04.483 --> 00:27:08.203
Instead of kind of looking at this
period in which, in which we would have

00:27:08.203 --> 00:27:11.503
had to come to terms with the fact that
we'd been, we'd been, colonizing other

00:27:11.503 --> 00:27:13.333
countries and that's not okay, really.

00:27:13.993 --> 00:27:17.883
instead get this sort of heroic
narrative, you know, Britain stands alone.

00:27:17.923 --> 00:27:20.623
So either nevermind the fact that's
got a half a billion people, in

00:27:20.623 --> 00:27:21.973
this empire standpoint as well.

00:27:22.393 --> 00:27:25.823
it just means that that sets the
narrative, rather than the end of empire.

00:27:26.243 --> 00:27:30.073
and yeah, I think that does
explain not quite, all but almost

00:27:30.073 --> 00:27:31.673
all of the politics of Brexit.

00:27:31.733 --> 00:27:36.393
I think, someone, I think it was
the one-time guardian journalist.

00:27:36.393 --> 00:27:40.643
Michael White said to me many, many
years ago I was doing, student, most

00:27:40.643 --> 00:27:43.973
as dissertation on your skepticism
in the bin, the British press.

00:27:44.543 --> 00:27:49.853
And he pointed out that there were
only two countries in the EU 15.

00:27:49.853 --> 00:27:51.383
At that point it must have just expanded.

00:27:51.893 --> 00:27:53.033
it was around 2004.

00:27:53.633 --> 00:27:57.683
There were only two countries in,
in the U as events did that had not

00:27:57.713 --> 00:28:01.433
been occupied at any point in the
20th century by enough of power.

00:28:01.493 --> 00:28:03.683
And they were the United
Kingdom and Sweden.

00:28:04.643 --> 00:28:08.093
And both of those were right
at the top of the year.

00:28:08.113 --> 00:28:13.973
It gets in Charles because it is much
harder to conceive of, of firstly.

00:28:13.973 --> 00:28:17.993
I think if, if, if you haven't been
occupied by foreign army, it is

00:28:17.993 --> 00:28:20.633
easier to believe in the abstract
notion of national sovereignty.

00:28:21.113 --> 00:28:25.743
And secondly, it is hard to see why you
need, international cooperation sometimes.

00:28:26.098 --> 00:28:26.608
Isabelle Roughol: I mean it's

00:28:26.613 --> 00:28:28.263
Jonn Elledge: So I feel
like babbling at your site.

00:28:28.288 --> 00:28:29.488
Isabelle Roughol: no, no, no, not at all.

00:28:29.488 --> 00:28:29.938
Not at all.

00:28:29.938 --> 00:28:33.188
We're we're definitely, it's interesting
because we're, we're seeing the same

00:28:33.188 --> 00:28:38.648
thing, you know, even in our countries
on the continent that have been occupied,

00:28:38.648 --> 00:28:43.928
which is because that generation that
has known this has pretty much died off.

00:28:44.328 --> 00:28:46.008
And the generation of
children who grew up.

00:28:46.908 --> 00:28:51.588
With their parents remembering the
war is, you know, that's my parents'

00:28:51.588 --> 00:28:53.478
generation and they're getting older.

00:28:53.888 --> 00:28:58.808
and so there is an, even in a political
discourse, you know, there was certainly

00:28:58.808 --> 00:29:05.628
a strong return if it ever went away
of anti-Semitism, that is and and

00:29:05.628 --> 00:29:11.718
spoken out loud, of anti migrant and
anti-refugee sentiment of, of anti

00:29:12.138 --> 00:29:17.568
European sentiment, that you just
wouldn't have heard 20, 30 years ago.

00:29:18.048 --> 00:29:21.258
but because there was less and less
of that lived experience, you know, my

00:29:21.258 --> 00:29:26.548
generation, we all had, pretty much all
had a Holocaust survivor or world war II

00:29:26.578 --> 00:29:28.228
veteran come and talk to us at school.

00:29:28.678 --> 00:29:33.478
Kids today don't get that, and so
that experience is slowly fading

00:29:33.478 --> 00:29:37.438
away and the you can see it in
the, in the political discourse.

00:29:40.818 --> 00:29:42.428
Jonn Elledge: a discussion is
probably not quite the right word.

00:29:42.448 --> 00:29:47.322
Hasn't been much of a reckoning
with, with Vichy and whilst chunk of

00:29:47.322 --> 00:29:51.191
Southern France basically collaborative
in those years, the blind blind?

00:29:51.201 --> 00:29:52.541
The way we have blind spots

00:29:52.676 --> 00:29:56.696
Isabelle Roughol: no, I think that is
pretty, that is pretty acknowledged.

00:29:57.356 --> 00:30:00.836
it wasn't any, you know, years
immediately following the war, apparently.

00:30:00.836 --> 00:30:03.656
I mean, I wasn't born, but it's
pretty much acknowledged now.

00:30:03.906 --> 00:30:09.326
There was a wonderful,
french TV show, Videsh hall.

00:30:09.336 --> 00:30:10.226
Say a French village.

00:30:10.226 --> 00:30:12.626
I don't know what they translated
it in english, but that

00:30:13.046 --> 00:30:14.636
was running for many years.

00:30:14.746 --> 00:30:17.356
from French public television,
it's looking at one village

00:30:18.016 --> 00:30:19.216
through the occupation.

00:30:19.246 --> 00:30:21.146
So it starts when, when the Nazi.

00:30:21.891 --> 00:30:26.311
Kind of when the war, until
deliberation and, and, it's looking

00:30:26.311 --> 00:30:29.761
at one village and how people
behaved and it's extremely detailed.

00:30:29.871 --> 00:30:32.061
and no one is a hundred percent good.

00:30:32.091 --> 00:30:33.591
No one is a hundred percent evil either.

00:30:34.041 --> 00:30:36.801
and so that, narrative, and that
was extremely popular in France.

00:30:36.801 --> 00:30:41.931
And so I think that narrative is,
is pretty, is pretty well accepted.

00:30:42.501 --> 00:30:45.471
I think we have at least got that.

00:30:47.101 --> 00:30:49.561
Jonn Elledge: that's that's interesting
because yeah, like you mentioned

00:30:49.561 --> 00:30:53.881
Churchill, and how he is just kind of
treated as this uncomplicated heroic

00:30:53.881 --> 00:30:57.901
figures if he wasn't, you know, by not
even by modern standards, by the standards

00:30:57.901 --> 00:31:00.001
of his own time, he was a racist as well.

00:31:00.961 --> 00:31:06.571
but also even leaving that aside, can make
a fairly strong argument that, that it was

00:31:06.571 --> 00:31:10.231
decisions he made that were responsible
for the Bengal Thurman of 1944, which

00:31:10.231 --> 00:31:15.931
killed millions of people because of the
way he wanted to redirect resources from,

00:31:15.931 --> 00:31:22.181
from, from what's now sort of Eastern
England, India, and Bangladesh to, to,

00:31:22.181 --> 00:31:24.521
to the UK, to, to help the war effort.

00:31:25.241 --> 00:31:29.531
and yeah, it's, you, you, you cannot
say, you cannot say that about Churchill

00:31:29.531 --> 00:31:31.091
without getting absolutely piled on.

00:31:31.871 --> 00:31:34.391
also, also later told me you were
about to go into poppy season.

00:31:34.451 --> 00:31:34.901
You were

00:31:35.011 --> 00:31:35.341
Isabelle Roughol: Oh,

00:31:35.501 --> 00:31:35.891
Jonn Elledge: season.

00:31:36.751 --> 00:31:40.601
Isabelle Roughol: I, you know, I,
I lived in America, post nine 11,

00:31:40.631 --> 00:31:42.491
I lift, and through the Iraq war.

00:31:42.501 --> 00:31:48.621
So I'm well familiar with the
displays of, visual, patriotism,

00:31:49.611 --> 00:31:50.871
Jonn Elledge: It's a
slightly room tone though.

00:31:50.871 --> 00:31:54.081
Cause I think compared to both the U
S and I think even france and much of

00:31:54.081 --> 00:31:58.521
Europe, like we don't really deal in
for, you know, public buildings, not

00:31:58.521 --> 00:32:01.701
generally display flags, people did
not really kind of like have their own.

00:32:02.511 --> 00:32:04.331
We don't tend to go in
for those to the public.

00:32:05.106 --> 00:32:09.606
Patriotism, but for those who aren't
familiar, every November 11th is

00:32:09.606 --> 00:32:14.286
remembrance day, which is the day we
were meant to remember the war dead.

00:32:14.286 --> 00:32:17.526
And if that one remembered Sunday,
this the closest Sunday to that,

00:32:17.526 --> 00:32:20.556
there's a minute silence and so on and
the parade and those kind of things.

00:32:20.946 --> 00:32:25.806
but, but though the Royal British Legion,
which is a charitable body raising money

00:32:25.806 --> 00:32:30.516
for veterans, has for first-line was
anyone can ever remember been selling,

00:32:30.806 --> 00:32:33.206
paper puppies as a way of raising money.

00:32:35.201 --> 00:32:35.651
and.

00:32:35.711 --> 00:32:39.281
as you get into sort of mid to
late October, you start getting

00:32:39.281 --> 00:32:42.491
like public figures who appear
on TV without wearing a poppy.

00:32:42.511 --> 00:32:44.471
We'll get pylons on social media.

00:32:44.931 --> 00:32:49.281
biggest thing showing support for
a veteran it's, it's, it's insane.

00:32:49.641 --> 00:32:52.311
Unlike like it's, you know, when
I, when I was a kid, I always used

00:32:52.311 --> 00:32:54.501
to buy a pop and I always used to
wear it because they're quite nice

00:32:54.501 --> 00:32:55.701
objects apart from anything else.

00:32:56.871 --> 00:32:59.121
but now I feel like I don't
want to do that anymore.

00:32:59.271 --> 00:33:02.421
I, because I don't want to, like,
I, I will give that I will make that

00:33:02.421 --> 00:33:05.241
charitable contribution, but I do
not want to kind of look like I'm

00:33:05.241 --> 00:33:07.401
taking that sides in a culture war.

00:33:08.241 --> 00:33:11.961
And I wonder if, to some extent, this
is because we have got, we are getting

00:33:11.961 --> 00:33:16.191
to the point, there are, there are
almost no veterans of the war, of Devin.

00:33:16.191 --> 00:33:17.661
There's any veterans of
world war one at this point.

00:33:17.661 --> 00:33:20.481
but I think there are very,
very few of world war two and

00:33:20.481 --> 00:33:21.831
all in the nineties and so on.

00:33:22.131 --> 00:33:26.421
I think it's because it is receding
into the past that other actors

00:33:26.451 --> 00:33:29.961
have moved in and kind of like
politicize this for their own motives.

00:33:31.098 --> 00:33:32.058
Isabelle Roughol: We'll be right back.

00:33:33.254 --> 00:33:34.484
Hey, it's Isabelle.

00:33:34.514 --> 00:33:37.244
I want to tell you about something
new that's available from Borderline.

00:33:37.604 --> 00:33:41.864
I read a lot about the issues that
Borderline is concerned with: immigration,

00:33:41.864 --> 00:33:46.844
free movement, globalization, global
trade, geopolitics and anything to

00:33:46.844 --> 00:33:48.764
do with life beyond the nation state.

00:33:49.184 --> 00:33:51.824
A lot of these things I read,
I want to share with you.

00:33:51.824 --> 00:33:55.364
So from now on, on Wednesdays,
you can receive a newsletter that

00:33:55.364 --> 00:33:57.584
is a curation of exactly that.

00:33:57.734 --> 00:34:00.314
And I promise it's not
one more annoying email.

00:34:00.474 --> 00:34:01.704
I'll keep it short and snappy.

00:34:01.704 --> 00:34:05.334
Just a two-minute read of the top news
you must know, the most interesting

00:34:05.334 --> 00:34:10.115
reads, as well as what I call long
story short: one issue, broken up

00:34:10.145 --> 00:34:13.715
in pour five bullet points that
just really clarify it for you.

00:34:14.075 --> 00:34:17.315
This week, we're talking about the actual
reasons that the UK is running out of

00:34:17.345 --> 00:34:21.185
lorry drivers and that's coming from the
mouth of an actual Polish truck driver.

00:34:21.515 --> 00:34:24.785
We're talking about Squid Game and
the rise of local global television.

00:34:24.785 --> 00:34:25.835
You'll find out what that is.

00:34:26.015 --> 00:34:29.855
We're talking about Afghan refugees
stuck at the borders between Poland

00:34:29.855 --> 00:34:33.065
and Belarus, as well as what's
happening to them here in the UK.

00:34:33.065 --> 00:34:37.175
We're talking about US travel restrictions
changing, all of these things that are

00:34:37.385 --> 00:34:39.665
very practical and concrete in our lives.

00:34:39.995 --> 00:34:44.105
And then for fun, I guess  we're
talking about how Estonians came to

00:34:44.105 --> 00:34:48.995
be seen as white people, which they
didn't use to be and how Silicon Valley

00:34:48.995 --> 00:34:51.335
is taking over a corner of Honduras.

00:34:51.817 --> 00:34:54.577
It's all at borderlinepod.com/ subscribe.

00:34:54.757 --> 00:34:58.117
Let me know what you think, you can
reach out to isa@borderlinepod.com.

00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:00.760
Now, back to our conversation
with John Elledge.

00:35:02.350 --> 00:35:03.640
Jonn Elledge: I do think like people are.

00:35:04.420 --> 00:35:09.460
Don't realize quite what a recent
invention nation state was and how like,

00:35:09.460 --> 00:35:14.410
you know, in, in, in the, in the, 19th
century, nationalism in europe was.

00:35:14.410 --> 00:35:18.280
was seen as the progressive force,
but it was about self-determination.

00:35:18.280 --> 00:35:21.280
It was about people kind of
taking, know, having taken control

00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:24.970
of their own affairs from these
kinds of multi-national empires.

00:35:25.420 --> 00:35:29.650
but for much of history that has been the
sort of unit you don't necessarily expect

00:35:29.650 --> 00:35:34.150
to be in, in kind of a political unit
where everyone is from the same kind of

00:35:34.150 --> 00:35:36.070
ethnic or linguistic group as yourself.

00:35:36.910 --> 00:35:40.300
there there's a relatively, there's
a relatively, recent recent thing.

00:35:40.720 --> 00:35:45.550
and, I, if, if you kind of look at this
at a grand sweep of human history, I

00:35:45.550 --> 00:35:49.510
do not necessarily think that there
is a reason to imagine that the nation

00:35:49.510 --> 00:35:51.820
state world is going to persist forever.

00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:56.500
and I think it probably does get replaced
by something else, somewhere down the

00:35:56.500 --> 00:35:57.850
line, even if we don't know what that  is.

00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.570
Isabelle Roughol: I interviewed, really
early on in the story of this podcast,

00:36:02.380 --> 00:36:06.930
author, called Hassan Damluji, and he's
written this book called a responsible

00:36:06.930 --> 00:36:11.160
globalist, and it subtitles is what
globalists should learn from nationalists.

00:36:11.460 --> 00:36:15.810
And he essentially looks at how the nation
state was born and, and why it was such

00:36:15.810 --> 00:36:21.450
a great success and how you could try and
essentially replicate that at a global

00:36:21.450 --> 00:36:29.230
level and create that same feeling of,
you know, weird tribalism and belonging

00:36:29.230 --> 00:36:35.470
to a nation, but at a, at a global level,
at this size of humanity, essentially.

00:36:36.120 --> 00:36:40.320
the challenge is, as you were saying,
you know, with, with star Trek, it helps

00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:44.970
to have an alien race to somehow create
some kind of us versus them dynamic.

00:36:45.390 --> 00:36:49.200
It's very hard to unite people without
a sense of, uN other, that's, that's

00:36:49.200 --> 00:36:53.220
out there that we need to unite
against even without going to war,

00:36:53.220 --> 00:36:58.300
you know, but that sense of, we have
something in common that others don't.

00:37:00.580 --> 00:37:02.470
Jonn Elledge: Would you think that's,
I mean, you were saying earlier

00:37:02.470 --> 00:37:07.270
that like France as it is now really
only kind of comes, comes to be in

00:37:07.270 --> 00:37:08.440
the Southern pony or liquor era.

00:37:08.650 --> 00:37:10.540
Do you think a function
of that with the required?

00:37:10.570 --> 00:37:14.260
There are quite a few years in
that time when like everybody else

00:37:14.260 --> 00:37:15.640
in Europe was at war with you.

00:37:16.010 --> 00:37:20.030
Do you think that was factor in the
kind of creation of a French identity?

00:37:20.330 --> 00:37:22.250
The spreads were far beyond Paris.

00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:24.620
Isabelle Roughol: Well, the French
identity I think it's something,

00:37:24.730 --> 00:37:29.230
and I'm by no means an expert
scholar of this, but I think is very

00:37:29.230 --> 00:37:33.910
interesting because it's something
that was very largely consciously

00:37:33.910 --> 00:37:36.990
manufactured in the 19th century.

00:37:37.580 --> 00:37:43.210
because people used to be much more
closely, attached to their region

00:37:43.680 --> 00:37:45.220
and their local, their village.

00:37:45.250 --> 00:37:50.440
People up into late into the 19th
century very frequently spoke their

00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:55.120
local dialect much more fluently and
frequently than, than they spoke French.

00:37:55.590 --> 00:38:00.740
And what the third Republic did so
that's the kind of the second half  or

00:38:00.740 --> 00:38:05.890
last quarter really of the, of the
19th century was, have, free and

00:38:06.145 --> 00:38:06.415
Jonn Elledge: Um,

00:38:06.860 --> 00:38:11.570
Isabelle Roughol: public schools that
in French and took kids out of their

00:38:11.570 --> 00:38:15.680
families to teach them not only the
language, but also the values, the

00:38:15.680 --> 00:38:19.880
Republican values kind of against the
church, which still was very powerful.

00:38:20.330 --> 00:38:25.490
And so that sentiment of belonging to
the nation, which is also a sentiment

00:38:25.490 --> 00:38:30.160
that is very Republican, in the, you
know, Republic sense of the world, not

00:38:30.160 --> 00:38:35.110
the American Republican sense of the
word, that was very consciously created.

00:38:35.700 --> 00:38:39.530
And so what's interesting is that,
essentially anyone can be French

00:38:39.620 --> 00:38:40.940
as long as you adhere to that.

00:38:42.875 --> 00:38:47.255
Which is why, you know, there's
French language, skill tests to pass,

00:38:47.345 --> 00:38:49.415
to get into, to get citizenship.

00:38:50.105 --> 00:38:55.175
and you know, I mean, there's been much
written about any English world about,

00:38:55.245 --> 00:39:00.855
Lacy T and this idea of secularism and why
you can't wear a hijab in a French school.

00:39:01.275 --> 00:39:04.155
So in a way, anyone can be French,
but as long as you very strictly

00:39:04.155 --> 00:39:08.505
adhere to this notion of what it
means to be French, which was, which

00:39:08.505 --> 00:39:10.185
was created in the 19th century.

00:39:10.185 --> 00:39:14.235
So it's very different from English
or American multiculturalism.

00:39:14.235 --> 00:39:20.055
And it doesn't necessarily adapt very
well to the 21st century into what the

00:39:20.055 --> 00:39:24.885
population of France looks like today,
which is why there's a lot of tension

00:39:25.005 --> 00:39:26.595
around these things at the moment.

00:39:27.885 --> 00:39:32.745
Jonn Elledge: It feels to me that
like, like, France and Britain

00:39:32.835 --> 00:39:36.105
have very different experiences
of, of multiculturalism.

00:39:36.105 --> 00:39:41.445
There feels to me the like Britain's
from, from ethnic minorities are,

00:39:42.295 --> 00:39:47.625
are more prominent in, in top
positions, in, you know, media or

00:39:47.625 --> 00:39:49.215
entertainment or even politics.

00:39:49.215 --> 00:39:53.955
I mean, two of the great offices
of states are helped by, sorry, two

00:39:53.955 --> 00:39:55.485
of the four great offices of state.

00:39:56.185 --> 00:39:58.635
the challenge is we're in the
home secretary, are held by,

00:39:58.635 --> 00:40:00.155
by people of Indian heritage.

00:40:00.635 --> 00:40:03.875
and it am I right in thinking that
it's not there, isn't really a direct

00:40:04.415 --> 00:40:05.945
parallel for that in, in front of.

00:40:06.035 --> 00:40:07.445
Isabelle Roughol: Um,
no, it certainly isn't.

00:40:07.505 --> 00:40:10.205
I mean, the country is also, you
know, just, if you look at the

00:40:10.205 --> 00:40:15.205
demographics less diverse done,
then, you can certainly in London.

00:40:15.715 --> 00:40:18.685
but there is also, well,
there's two things.

00:40:18.745 --> 00:40:24.935
One is, is, yes, there are still there
is still certainly, an institutional

00:40:24.935 --> 00:40:28.055
racism though, even though if you say
that word in France, I will start over.

00:40:29.030 --> 00:40:32.060
Ugly debate, but there is
certainly institutional racism.

00:40:32.450 --> 00:40:36.320
there's also just kind of a
different notion of, of what it

00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:41.730
means to, be a diverse society.

00:40:41.810 --> 00:40:44.090
multiculturalism is kind of a dirty word.

00:40:44.780 --> 00:40:47.960
The idea is that when you come to
friends and you become French, you

00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:51.110
kind of shed what differentiated you.

00:40:51.950 --> 00:40:55.700
so I have many issues with that because
that essentially, is a lot easier to do

00:40:55.730 --> 00:40:57.590
if you're a white Christian immigrant.

00:40:57.590 --> 00:41:02.040
And if you are a black Muslim immigrant,
for instance, but, but essentially,

00:41:02.090 --> 00:41:05.930
those, those differentiations
aren't made in the same way.

00:41:05.930 --> 00:41:10.040
You don't, you don't hyphenate, You
know, you're not, you're not Indian

00:41:10.040 --> 00:41:13.650
French in a way that you can be,
British, south Asian or you're not,

00:41:15.090 --> 00:41:17.300
they're very, very different, notions.

00:41:18.980 --> 00:41:22.730
My gosh, I really, we need a scholar to
explain this, to explain this better.

00:41:23.020 --> 00:41:29.280
but yes, there was very, very much
fewer minorities in government

00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:30.990
and in positions of power.

00:41:31.380 --> 00:41:39.120
and even when they are there, um, tend to
not draw attention to, to that difference.

00:41:41.615 --> 00:41:44.105
Jonn Elledge: I should say, cause I
could have started you down this road.

00:41:44.135 --> 00:41:47.705
I should say this is not me saying
like Brittany's like a multicultural

00:41:47.705 --> 00:41:52.055
paradise where like we then did racism
was I absolutely don't think that,

00:41:52.085 --> 00:41:54.095
that's absolutely not my, my position.

00:41:54.435 --> 00:41:57.285
but it is kind of
fascinating the way, like.

00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:02.200
Pretty much every country or every
country over any diversity of

00:42:02.200 --> 00:42:08.350
population in it does seem to issues
kind of like racism and prejudice and

00:42:08.500 --> 00:42:08.600
Isabelle Roughol: Oh,

00:42:09.100 --> 00:42:11.380
Jonn Elledge: but they do, they
do manifest completely different

00:42:11.380 --> 00:42:14.740
in different countries in a way
I find like weirdly fascinating.

00:42:14.820 --> 00:42:18.660
Isabelle Roughol: It's a
really fascinating conversation

00:42:18.660 --> 00:42:19.950
and debate that's happening.

00:42:20.340 --> 00:42:27.610
Unfortunately it's not always done with a
very calm demeanor or attitude to it, but,

00:42:27.720 --> 00:42:33.600
you know, essentially a lot of people in
France see multiculturalism in the British

00:42:33.600 --> 00:42:35.730
or the American fashion arrive in France.

00:42:35.730 --> 00:42:40.620
And certainly  gen Z is much more his
influenced by American culture and is

00:42:40.620 --> 00:42:45.430
certainly much more of that  perspective
on things, which in France has called

00:42:45.430 --> 00:42:50.150
essentialist, which is essentially
defining people by their origins, by

00:42:50.150 --> 00:42:55.500
their skin color, et cetera, versus
France aspires to be universalist, which

00:42:55.500 --> 00:42:59.490
is essentially everyone is the same and
those differences don't exist, which is

00:43:00.570 --> 00:43:06.000
you know, a nice and lofty ideal, but it's
not actually how people treat one another.

00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:08.280
It's certainly not how
the state treats people.

00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:13.770
So a bit like an, I don't see color
kind of thing, which isn't real.

00:43:14.090 --> 00:43:18.860
but, but that, French institutions
still very much hold on to, and

00:43:18.860 --> 00:43:27.053
I have, I have some sympathy for
it, because how to expresses...

00:43:27.113 --> 00:43:30.893
I do feel sometimes, you know, and
that's the French in me, that those

00:43:30.893 --> 00:43:36.653
differentiations are too exacerbated
in a public discourse, to the point

00:43:36.653 --> 00:43:40.283
that it becomes the only thing
that you start to see about people.

00:43:40.583 --> 00:43:45.563
And that makes those conversations very
difficult to have across communities.

00:43:46.033 --> 00:43:48.463
and so they end up being a bit siloed.

00:43:49.513 --> 00:43:55.508
But, I also think that the French
way you really won't and cannot

00:43:55.508 --> 00:43:59.548
last, because that's certainly not
how younger French generations see

00:43:59.548 --> 00:44:02.698
it today, but that makes sense.

00:44:03.598 --> 00:44:04.168
Jonn Elledge: Yeah.

00:44:04.228 --> 00:44:04.768
Yeah.

00:44:06.978 --> 00:44:07.398
Yeah.

00:44:08.993 --> 00:44:09.413
Yes, sir.

00:44:09.413 --> 00:44:10.823
My brain is completely gone home.

00:44:11.288 --> 00:44:11.918
Isabelle Roughol: No, I mean.

00:44:11.918 --> 00:44:15.188
we, we went, we went in a
completely somewhere else.

00:44:16.583 --> 00:44:17.033
Jonn Elledge: we've been all

00:44:17.138 --> 00:44:18.338
Isabelle Roughol: That's going
to be an interesting edit.

00:44:20.513 --> 00:44:23.303
Jonn Elledge: one of the things
I find, I mean, one of the many,

00:44:23.303 --> 00:44:25.793
many, almost infinite number of
things I find depressing about

00:44:25.793 --> 00:44:29.183
Brexit and everything that has
come from it, one of them is that.

00:44:30.623 --> 00:44:34.013
like, in some ways like Britain
is Britain is I think it might be

00:44:34.013 --> 00:44:37.133
the most multicultural country in
Europe is certainly near the top.

00:44:37.503 --> 00:44:40.533
There's plenty of, you know, young,
black, British men particularly

00:44:40.533 --> 00:44:41.703
are going to face loads of racism.

00:44:41.703 --> 00:44:45.773
And so  it's not like we don't have
huge issues, but you can also point to

00:44:45.773 --> 00:44:48.863
certain things and say, okay, there are
bits of this we are doing quite well.

00:44:49.463 --> 00:44:53.643
and none of that Is is the narrative
we are, we are telling about

00:44:53.643 --> 00:44:54.783
ourselves because It's all...

00:44:55.413 --> 00:44:59.283
I mean, I suppose, I suppose to some
extent, the Brexit vote worst, to some

00:44:59.283 --> 00:45:04.683
extent, a kind of reaction against the
success of, of multiculturalism and

00:45:04.683 --> 00:45:08.853
liberalism and, you know, and those
are, cause these, these qualities can

00:45:08.883 --> 00:45:13.713
get tied up with bound up with London
as a city, which is in, as, as you'll

00:45:13.713 --> 00:45:17.380
know, living here, you know, it's a
huge international city it's  and you

00:45:17.380 --> 00:45:18.880
can be from anywhere and be a Londoner.

00:45:18.940 --> 00:45:21.840
And no, no, one's really going
to question that and it's kind of

00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:24.930
possible to switch allegiance to a
different city And where you can't

00:45:24.930 --> 00:45:26.790
switch nationalities quite so easily.

00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:31.250
so like to an extent, Brexit was an
older generation kind of kicking back

00:45:31.250 --> 00:45:36.650
against the fact that their kids are a lot
more diverse and liberal than they are.

00:45:37.130 --> 00:45:40.865
but nonetheless, it does kind
of mean the face that Britain

00:45:40.865 --> 00:45:42.305
has shown the world recently.

00:45:42.305 --> 00:45:46.565
And England particularly is, is
that of kind of like a sort of

00:45:46.565 --> 00:45:48.905
like aging middle-aged reactionary.

00:45:49.545 --> 00:45:52.435
whereas I think from a liberal
internationalist perspective, I

00:45:52.435 --> 00:45:55.095
think there are, there are a lot of
things about this country that we,

00:45:55.095 --> 00:45:59.005
we we can actually be quite proud of,
but there's other ones that we've,

00:45:59.005 --> 00:46:01.045
we've foregrounded the top recently.

00:46:01.045 --> 00:46:04.975
We've just got this there's nasty, the
nasty people hate foreign isn't church.

00:46:05.005 --> 00:46:05.275
So

00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:09.000
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, it's been,
it's been extremely dissonant

00:46:09.240 --> 00:46:10.710
for me as an immigrant here.

00:46:11.170 --> 00:46:12.490
Jonn Elledge: When did
you arrive by the way?

00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:13.600
Isabelle Roughol: So I arrived.

00:46:13.600 --> 00:46:16.450
I got my contract to move here on
the day of the Brexit referendum.

00:46:17.390 --> 00:46:19.370
Yeah, So it's easy to remember.

00:46:19.550 --> 00:46:21.170
I was living in Australia at the time.

00:46:21.510 --> 00:46:25.260
and I had, you know, already my, my
company moved me here, had already

00:46:25.260 --> 00:46:28.800
had that conversation with my
boss and I was already emotionally

00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:30.540
invested in, in moving to London.

00:46:31.050 --> 00:46:34.680
And, and I got the contract on the day
of the referendum and kind of watch the

00:46:34.680 --> 00:46:38.730
news, you know, it was, it was daytime
in Australia, watched the news, watch

00:46:38.730 --> 00:46:40.260
my contract was like, what do I do?

00:46:41.050 --> 00:46:45.220
but I was, I, you know, I was, I was like,
oh, they can't possibly, you know, Dell,

00:46:45.820 --> 00:46:47.950
Dell, Dell Brexit, but not really eat.

00:46:47.950 --> 00:46:51.100
I'll stay in the single Martin and CA you
know, they just did just shot themselves

00:46:51.100 --> 00:46:52.510
in the foot, but it won't be that bad.

00:46:53.020 --> 00:46:56.620
you know, didn't see the
next five years coming.

00:46:57.040 --> 00:46:57.460
but

00:46:57.845 --> 00:47:01.385
Jonn Elledge: I mean, I sort of think
it was sorry I interrupted, but I, I saw

00:47:01.385 --> 00:47:07.595
the think it was the, it was because it
was quite a close vote that, yeah, it

00:47:07.595 --> 00:47:09.045
was like a couple of points could move.

00:47:09.605 --> 00:47:12.155
So you can make a compelling
argument that almost anything

00:47:12.155 --> 00:47:13.205
could have swung it the other way.

00:47:13.745 --> 00:47:17.625
But I think one of the weird side
effects of this is, the, the, the

00:47:17.625 --> 00:47:21.915
pro-Brexit leaves sides kind of
had to go around talking as if

00:47:21.915 --> 00:47:23.205
it was an overwhelming mandate.

00:47:23.205 --> 00:47:26.205
Like, I think the very narrowness
of it meant that they didn't feel

00:47:26.205 --> 00:47:29.865
they could compromise, which is not,

00:47:30.185 --> 00:47:33.135
I'm not saying this is good
behavior, but I can sort of like,

00:47:33.135 --> 00:47:34.875
see how, how it happens in her life.

00:47:34.875 --> 00:47:38.595
If it had been 60 40 for leave, it
probably would have been much easier

00:47:38.595 --> 00:47:41.325
to kind of, cause they wouldn't have
been that insecurity about whether

00:47:41.325 --> 00:47:43.725
or not it was actually going to
happen because you know, that we

00:47:43.725 --> 00:47:46.415
use, you know, there were, there were
several years where it genuinely felt

00:47:46.415 --> 00:47:48.125
like maybe we could walk it back.

00:47:49.035 --> 00:47:49.305
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah.

00:47:49.305 --> 00:47:54.195
When you think that today, if you did the
vote again, you know, it wouldn't pass.

00:47:54.275 --> 00:47:59.435
if, if you citizens that live in
the UK had had the right to vote

00:47:59.435 --> 00:48:02.375
the same way that Commonwealth
citizens did, it wouldn't have fast.

00:48:02.375 --> 00:48:06.165
If 16 year old had had the right to
vote, who are being, you know, who

00:48:06.165 --> 00:48:08.205
are young adults now impacted by it?

00:48:09.105 --> 00:48:13.125
it wouldn't have happened either, but
it has been really, really dissonant

00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:14.550
Jonn Elledge: Yeah.

00:48:15.375 --> 00:48:19.485
Isabelle Roughol: how wonderfully
welcoming London has been and

00:48:19.485 --> 00:48:23.535
diverse on probably of all
the cities that I've lived in.

00:48:23.535 --> 00:48:30.885
I've lived in many, the place that
feels most easy to be myself in as a.

00:48:32.685 --> 00:48:36.585
As a French woman, who's, not French
enough and two feminists for Paris.

00:48:36.665 --> 00:48:40.655
and as a, I mean, it's just,
it, you know, it feels right.

00:48:40.655 --> 00:48:47.055
The city does, but in the country really
doesn't and I've often considered leaving

00:48:47.055 --> 00:48:52.655
and I'm still decide, because the politics
have been so hostile to people like

00:48:52.655 --> 00:48:57.515
myself and has been made so much more
complicated by literally having to have

00:48:57.515 --> 00:49:01.625
an Excel spreadsheet where I counting the
days that I spent outside the country.

00:49:01.625 --> 00:49:06.485
So I don't lose my eligibility for settled
status and for citizenship next year.

00:49:07.175 --> 00:49:09.485
So it's yeah.

00:49:10.915 --> 00:49:13.555
Jonn Elledge: There's as we were talking
about at the top of the show load that

00:49:13.795 --> 00:49:20.275
Australia dumping all its refugees on the
island country an hour, it, it's the same

00:49:20.275 --> 00:49:24.115
kind of impulse you see in the British
home office to deliberately make things

00:49:24.115 --> 00:49:31.345
as unpleasant and as difficult as possible
as a signal to, both, to, to, you know.

00:49:31.375 --> 00:49:34.525
both as a signal to say, to tell
people not to come here, but also as

00:49:34.525 --> 00:49:37.525
a signal to particular voters that it
just being hard-lined on this stuff.

00:49:38.275 --> 00:49:39.685
it's yeah, it's just awful.

00:49:39.895 --> 00:49:42.655
I mean, they do kind of feel like
you said, you sort of imagined

00:49:42.655 --> 00:49:44.005
we'd stay in the single market.

00:49:44.425 --> 00:49:47.965
My sort of suspicion is that
long-term we probably end up back in.

00:49:48.545 --> 00:49:52.145
the single, I don't, I don't imagine
whatever, if that makes it a grand

00:49:52.145 --> 00:49:56.375
unified theory of Brexit is that like
whatever happens in, however, the

00:49:56.375 --> 00:50:01.835
vote had gone in 2016, our long-term
destiny is to end up in, in the single

00:50:01.835 --> 00:50:04.265
market, but not in any political union.

00:50:04.295 --> 00:50:08.885
Like even if li even if remain had won
that referendum, there will, at some point

00:50:08.885 --> 00:50:12.455
be a country called Europe and Britain
would not want to go into that, but they

00:50:12.455 --> 00:50:15.845
do kind of think the economic logic of,
of being part of the single market will,

00:50:15.845 --> 00:50:18.465
will over time, become overwhelming.

00:50:18.495 --> 00:50:21.315
I think we're probably just going to
very gradually rebuild our position

00:50:21.315 --> 00:50:22.995
in, the single market piece by piece.

00:50:23.985 --> 00:50:27.085
what that means for,
for, freedom of movement.

00:50:27.085 --> 00:50:27.625
I don't know.

00:50:27.715 --> 00:50:31.915
I spent probably a way of being able
to walk that one back, but spare,

00:50:31.915 --> 00:50:34.495
they do kind of think we would,
you know, too much of our trade is

00:50:34.495 --> 00:50:35.635
naturally going to be review Europe.

00:50:36.345 --> 00:50:38.385
and this one's going to be hard
because there's going to be loads of

00:50:38.625 --> 00:50:41.535
there are going to be empty shelves
because you can't get products into.

00:50:41.845 --> 00:50:44.075
Isabelle Roughol: I'm I'm, I'm going home.

00:50:44.365 --> 00:50:45.895
I've booked my ferry tickets.

00:50:45.895 --> 00:50:47.155
I'm going home for Christmas.

00:50:47.185 --> 00:50:47.965
Knock on wood.

00:50:48.025 --> 00:50:49.615
provided, rules don't change again.

00:50:50.045 --> 00:50:51.925
I'm going, I'm going home with my car.

00:50:52.555 --> 00:50:54.535
so I'll come back with a car full of food.

00:50:55.105 --> 00:50:57.265
So, you know, take your orders now.

00:50:59.185 --> 00:51:02.285
I'll, I'll make sure to do my
part like Dunkirk style two to

00:51:02.285 --> 00:51:07.215
supply, to supply England with
a much needed food and petrol.

00:51:08.615 --> 00:51:09.395
Jonn Elledge: Please, please.

00:51:09.395 --> 00:51:10.835
We need all the help we can get right now.

00:51:12.805 --> 00:51:15.775
Isabelle Roughol: Oh, well, I mean,
that's, that's a whole other, that's a

00:51:15.775 --> 00:51:19.485
whole other episode potentially, but,
I'm fascinated with how the backlash

00:51:19.485 --> 00:51:25.665
on globalization ends up destroying
free movement, but maintaining.

00:51:27.330 --> 00:51:30.930
Ultimately we'll maintain free trade
because there's too much money at stake.

00:51:31.420 --> 00:51:33.210
and capital won't let it happen.

00:51:33.690 --> 00:51:37.950
but so I find it fascinating that
essentially people are rightly identifying

00:51:37.950 --> 00:51:41.940
all the problems of capitalization, but
they're taking it out on migrants instead

00:51:41.940 --> 00:51:48.390
of taking it out on, you know, re you
know, global capital that's run amok.

00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:52.680
It's yeah, that's a whole
other episode, as I said,

00:51:52.900 --> 00:51:53.440
Jonn Elledge: Yeah.

00:51:53.560 --> 00:51:58.600
it's going back to the state of
play last winter, it was literally

00:51:58.600 --> 00:52:03.910
easier to get into this country as a
virus than it was as a human being.

00:52:04.330 --> 00:52:06.340
which, which feels slightly
the wrong way round.

00:52:06.850 --> 00:52:10.310
but we all, we all, we all should
like, should I, sorry, just conscious.

00:52:10.310 --> 00:52:11.620
I, the name of the book or something,

00:52:11.665 --> 00:52:13.045
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah, absolutely.

00:52:13.045 --> 00:52:16.455
Tell us, tell us about the book please.

00:52:16.455 --> 00:52:18.645
Shamelessly, uh, plug it.

00:52:19.715 --> 00:52:20.135
Jonn Elledge: Yeah.

00:52:20.195 --> 00:52:23.165
So the book is called The
Compendium of Not Quite Everything.

00:52:23.165 --> 00:52:24.995
It's out now from, from headline.

00:52:25.645 --> 00:52:30.805
and it's about a hundred sort of
mini essays on all sorts of topics.

00:52:30.805 --> 00:52:32.995
Just random things that I
find interesting, really.

00:52:32.995 --> 00:52:36.985
So it starts with some creation,
lifts, and then my sort of 800 word

00:52:37.105 --> 00:52:40.135
summary of the big bang and the
creation of the universe and evolution.

00:52:40.585 --> 00:52:43.495
There's a lot of stuff about galaxies
and stars and planets and stuff, or

00:52:43.495 --> 00:52:45.115
how many countries are in the world.

00:52:45.115 --> 00:52:49.945
And that one of the biggest islands
and bits on the history of numbers

00:52:49.945 --> 00:52:54.145
and mathematics and this person
particularly stupid wars, that's a fun

00:52:54.390 --> 00:52:55.380
Isabelle Roughol: That is a fun one.

00:52:55.740 --> 00:52:57.300
A lot of them about cows,

00:52:58.135 --> 00:52:59.785
Jonn Elledge: There's certainly,
there've been surprising.

00:52:59.785 --> 00:53:02.395
Number of wars where the cows,
although my FA my favorite of the

00:53:02.395 --> 00:53:04.285
stupid wars is the, the, the EMU

00:53:04.550 --> 00:53:05.270
Isabelle Roughol: the EMU war.

00:53:05.300 --> 00:53:05.570
Yeah.

00:53:05.570 --> 00:53:05.930
Yeah.

00:53:06.110 --> 00:53:07.550
Especially the EMU one.

00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:08.330
Uh,

00:53:08.875 --> 00:53:10.885
Jonn Elledge: which she, Australian
army went to war against some

00:53:10.885 --> 00:53:14.005
large flightless birds lost twice.

00:53:14.545 --> 00:53:16.315
it's one of my favorite
stories from all of history.

00:53:16.655 --> 00:53:21.225
but yeah, there's, the, the very nice line
in, in, in, the review in the, daily mail.

00:53:21.225 --> 00:53:23.115
So the, the it's very unlikely.

00:53:23.115 --> 00:53:25.945
You'll be interested in everything in
this book, but it's extremely unlikely.

00:53:25.945 --> 00:53:29.175
You will be interested in something,
so, you know, please buy it, please

00:53:29.175 --> 00:53:30.405
buy it for anyone in your life.

00:53:30.405 --> 00:53:32.835
You don't know what to get for Christmas
because they will hopefully enjoy it.

00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:34.320
Isabelle Roughol: I
will, I will second that.

00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:37.450
And I think for listeners to this
podcast, I was saying earlier, the,

00:53:37.450 --> 00:53:41.180
the second section is, is fascinating.

00:53:41.500 --> 00:53:44.320
I appreciate that as an Englishman,

00:53:44.560 --> 00:53:45.550
you are English, right?

00:53:46.180 --> 00:53:47.230
Yes, you are.

00:53:47.415 --> 00:53:48.165
Jonn Elledge: boringly English.

00:53:49.095 --> 00:53:51.195
I live in, I live in
the east end of London.

00:53:52.355 --> 00:53:56.655
I once tried tracing my, my, my family
tree and I got back as far as my great,

00:53:56.655 --> 00:54:01.275
great, great grandfather, Jonn Elledge,
which is the same as my name who lives

00:54:01.275 --> 00:54:03.045
in the same postcode as I do now.

00:54:04.870 --> 00:54:07.630
So like all that's happened in
200 years as that I've learned

00:54:07.630 --> 00:54:08.980
to misspell my own name.

00:54:10.600 --> 00:54:13.820
Isabelle Roughol: Well, I
we're, we're big into genealogy.

00:54:13.850 --> 00:54:18.120
My brother has gone back to
like the 13th century, I think.

00:54:18.120 --> 00:54:19.290
And the, and we're French.

00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:20.370
It's extremely boring.

00:54:20.370 --> 00:54:20.820
We're friends.

00:54:21.670 --> 00:54:25.870
All the time, like there, you know,
we've moved a bit from, essentially

00:54:25.870 --> 00:54:30.190
we've, at some point people went up to
Paris to try and get rich, which they

00:54:30.190 --> 00:54:31.690
did, but then they got poor again.

00:54:32.090 --> 00:54:35.450
but it's just a story
of many families really.

00:54:35.770 --> 00:54:38.260
but no, I appreciate that in the
book, as an English man, you, you

00:54:38.260 --> 00:54:42.520
recognize how absolutely bonkers the
Imperial system of measurement is.

00:54:43.510 --> 00:54:43.870
it's

00:54:43.930 --> 00:54:44.980
absolutely insane.

00:54:44.980 --> 00:54:45.850
It is the

00:54:45.850 --> 00:54:46.120
one

00:54:46.170 --> 00:54:47.640
Jonn Elledge: there's
no internal logic to it

00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:48.270
Isabelle Roughol: none.

00:54:48.930 --> 00:54:50.700
Jonn Elledge: So yeah, there is
an entry that's just to me getting

00:54:50.700 --> 00:54:52.290
increasingly furious Imperial

00:54:52.720 --> 00:54:52.990
Isabelle Roughol: Hmm.

00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:56.550
Jonn Elledge: and like the metric system
is one of the best things that France has

00:54:56.650 --> 00:54:56.860
Isabelle Roughol: it.

00:54:56.940 --> 00:54:57.150
Jonn Elledge: the world.

00:54:59.580 --> 00:55:01.110
Towering intellectual achievement.

00:55:01.300 --> 00:55:05.290
Isabelle Roughol: We make, we make up
for it by counting and really weird ways.

00:55:05.860 --> 00:55:08.680
so do you know how you see 90 in French?

00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:10.660
I mean, you've taken
seven years of French.

00:55:11.770 --> 00:55:12.460
It's a

00:55:13.190 --> 00:55:14.450
Jonn Elledge: I can do
that's the bit I got.

00:55:14.560 --> 00:55:15.400
Isabelle Roughol: it's Katelyn Vandy.

00:55:15.410 --> 00:55:17.140
So it's four times 20 plus.

00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:18.880
Jonn Elledge: Yeah.

00:55:18.915 --> 00:55:21.135
Isabelle Roughol: is the
weirdest way of saying 90.

00:55:21.225 --> 00:55:23.835
So we do have some quirks as well.

00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:27.600
Jonn Elledge: Well, isn't that
what makes a nation really?

00:55:28.915 --> 00:55:30.835
Isabelle Roughol: Well, that's,
that's a good line to end on.

00:55:30.835 --> 00:55:32.605
Thank you so much, Jonn really

00:55:32.605 --> 00:55:36.175
appreciate this, this conversation
of not quite everything, we didn't

00:55:36.175 --> 00:55:38.035
do quite everything, but almost

00:55:39.595 --> 00:55:40.285
I appreciate it.

00:55:40.290 --> 00:55:40.860
Jonn Elledge: That's very, much.

00:55:40.860 --> 00:55:44.070
My vibe is just like, I'm just trying to
work out how to kind of monetize talking

00:55:44.070 --> 00:55:45.480
notes in this about random subjects.

00:55:45.510 --> 00:55:47.220
That's kind of like plan for the

00:55:47.255 --> 00:55:49.955
Isabelle Roughol: Well, and,
and you do it very well.

00:55:50.015 --> 00:55:52.925
and we should say you have a
newsletter of the same source

00:55:52.925 --> 00:55:54.185
as well that people can sign

00:55:54.185 --> 00:55:54.635
up for.

00:55:55.200 --> 00:55:57.660
Jonn Elledge: because the newsletter
is not quite everything, is, you

00:55:57.660 --> 00:55:58.500
know, the brand and the gene,

00:55:58.815 --> 00:55:59.955
Isabelle Roughol: Yeah,
you've got a brain there.

00:56:01.860 --> 00:56:03.990
Jonn Elledge: there has also been, the
podcast is not quite everything, which

00:56:03.990 --> 00:56:08.390
we've just, we've, we've just finished the
first season of, in which basically have

00:56:08.510 --> 00:56:10.550
a fairly rambling conversations like this.

00:56:10.550 --> 00:56:12.830
And he, with me as the
interviewer with, with an expert.

00:56:13.220 --> 00:56:16.060
So I spoke to, people like the
historian, Alexandre kinsmen, or the

00:56:16.060 --> 00:56:20.380
comedian, the hair Shaw, or a guy
called , who's a German astronomer.

00:56:20.410 --> 00:56:23.050
Who's the guy, who's the first man
to take a picture of a black hole.

00:56:23.660 --> 00:56:25.690
So it's, it's completely random.

00:56:25.690 --> 00:56:29.120
It's just based on me finding interesting
people I wanted to talk to, which

00:56:29.120 --> 00:56:30.590
is the dream really as a journalist.

00:56:30.805 --> 00:56:32.835
Isabelle Roughol: I mean, that's,
that's why we chose this profession.

00:56:32.835 --> 00:56:33.105
Right.

00:56:33.135 --> 00:56:37.305
So we'll make sure to put all the
links in the show notes so people can

00:56:37.355 --> 00:56:41.195
go and buy the book, sign up for the
newsletter, listened to the podcasts,

00:56:41.225 --> 00:56:43.385
all with my warm recommendation.

00:56:43.415 --> 00:56:44.385
Thank you so much, Jonn.

00:56:45.115 --> 00:56:46.345
Jonn Elledge: Thank
you much for having me.

00:56:46.575 --> 00:56:47.325
Isabelle Roughol: My pleasure.

00:56:50.084 --> 00:56:52.664
The Compendium of Not Quite
Everything by Jonn Elledge is

00:56:52.664 --> 00:56:54.014
available now from headline.

00:56:54.014 --> 00:56:58.214
And I can confirm that it definitely
makes for a great Christmas present

00:56:58.214 --> 00:57:02.624
because yes, we're already there thinking
about Christmas presents, for people

00:57:02.624 --> 00:57:04.334
with a curious mind in your life.

00:57:04.784 --> 00:57:08.324
You'll also find links to the podcast of,
not quite  everything and the newsletter

00:57:08.324 --> 00:57:10.754
of not quite everything in the show notes.

00:57:10.934 --> 00:57:15.074
This is also my opportunity to tell you
that if you buy the book from the link in

00:57:15.074 --> 00:57:20.084
the show notes, or from Borderlinepod.com,
you will be supporting Borderline.

00:57:20.114 --> 00:57:24.314
I've opened a bookshop, simply an
affiliate program with bookshop.org,

00:57:24.314 --> 00:57:28.614
which supports independent bookstores
in the UK and the U S and through

00:57:28.614 --> 00:57:32.524
this affiliate program can now also
support this independent media.

00:57:33.033 --> 00:57:37.173
You'll find books from guests on the
podcast, anything that's referenced

00:57:37.173 --> 00:57:41.083
or talked about here, as well as other
recommendations that I think Borderline

00:57:41.163 --> 00:57:43.443
listeners and readers will enjoy.

00:57:43.683 --> 00:57:47.486
All you need to do is click through the
Borderline bookshop, you'll buy the books

00:57:47.486 --> 00:57:51.146
in just the same way as you usually do,
but it will help support this podcast.

00:57:51.523 --> 00:57:53.983
As I mentioned last week, I'm
back in school, learning how

00:57:53.983 --> 00:57:55.963
to grow and improve Borderline.

00:57:55.993 --> 00:57:59.713
I am testing new products, including
this new newsletter, and I am

00:57:59.713 --> 00:58:01.653
therefore extremely pressed for time..

00:58:01.988 --> 00:58:05.168
Podcast production takes an insane
amount of time, I can't even tell you.

00:58:05.528 --> 00:58:08.168
And unfortunately is taking
me away from doing a lot of

00:58:08.168 --> 00:58:09.428
other things and from writing.

00:58:09.488 --> 00:58:14.528
So the podcast is going to go biweekly
in order to give a little breathing

00:58:14.528 --> 00:58:16.658
room for other projects to emerge.

00:58:16.833 --> 00:58:18.153
I hope you'll stay tuned.

00:58:18.193 --> 00:58:22.383
In fact, from talking to a lot of
you, I know many have a backlog

00:58:22.383 --> 00:58:26.283
of episodes to listen to because
these are quite dense and long.

00:58:26.463 --> 00:58:31.233
So giving you a little bit more time
as well to get through the archives.

00:58:31.503 --> 00:58:32.613
Let me know what you think.

00:58:32.643 --> 00:58:37.203
You can always reach out to me at
ISA at Borderline pod.com or through

00:58:37.203 --> 00:58:39.333
the Borderlinepod.com website.

00:58:39.543 --> 00:58:40.783
I'm your host, Isabelle Roughol.

00:58:41.073 --> 00:58:42.353
Music was by Ofshane.

00:58:42.633 --> 00:58:44.973
Borderline is a One Lane
Bridge production, and I will

00:58:44.973 --> 00:58:46.803
talk to you in two weeks.