WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.954 --> 00:00:18.014 Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.524 --> 00:00:20.024 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:20.024 --> 00:00:22.724 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:22.724 --> 00:00:22.784 Okay. 00:00:34.907 --> 00:00:37.067 Welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:00:37.067 --> 00:00:38.717 I am your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:38.717 --> 00:00:41.807 You can find me on all the social networks at Jethro Jones. 00:00:41.927 --> 00:00:45.977 And Transformative Principal is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network. 00:00:46.247 --> 00:00:51.647 This podcast network has the best selection of educational podcasts for you. 00:00:52.007 --> 00:00:56.417 If you are in a role in education, there's a podcast there for you. 00:00:56.417 --> 00:00:59.027 And if you're in a role and you don't see a podcast. 00:00:59.502 --> 00:01:05.352 Gimme a call and let's make one together because everybody deserves to have some great podcasts to listen to. 00:01:05.922 --> 00:01:14.742 I'm excited today to be joined by KC Knutson, who is the MTSS Coordinator at the Northwest Educational Service District. 00:01:15.102 --> 00:01:25.962 Prior to this, he was a senior educational consultant where he focused on facilitating the establishment of inclusive classroom schools and districts to effectively cater to the diverse needs of all students. 00:01:26.167 --> 00:01:40.147 He is a big fan of UDL and MTSS frameworks, and he has extensive experience in providing professional learning, coaching and technical assistance, specifically aimed at supporting the implementation of inclusive practices using UDL and MTSS. 00:01:40.597 --> 00:01:50.917 His background in educational leadership includes significant roles, such as the Director of Teaching and learning, assistant superintendent, executive director, principal, assistant principal, and teacher Casey. 00:01:50.917 --> 00:01:52.807 Welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:01:52.807 --> 00:01:53.797 Great to have you here. 00:01:54.444 --> 00:01:55.044 Thank you. 00:01:55.044 --> 00:01:56.334 Yeah, it's my pleasure. 00:01:56.424 --> 00:01:57.354 Glad to be here. 00:01:57.782 --> 00:02:09.032 Well, we, uh, got connected because a couple weeks ago I had Patrick Re on the program and he quoted you, and after he quoted you, I was like, I gotta talk to this guy. 00:02:09.677 --> 00:02:18.167 So the quote that he said was that 2% of our teachers need evaluation and 98% of our teachers need coaching. 00:02:18.197 --> 00:02:24.227 And that just spoke to my heart, went right as a bolt of lightning to my heart and I That was right on. 00:02:24.227 --> 00:02:32.777 So let's start by having you describe the difference between coaching and evaluation and what that means in this context of this quote. 00:02:34.124 --> 00:02:35.774 Yeah, well, um. 00:02:36.689 --> 00:02:37.619 Patrick's a great guy. 00:02:37.619 --> 00:02:45.209 He's doing some amazing work specifically around coaching, so I'm, uh, not surprised that that didn't, that that did land with him. 00:02:45.359 --> 00:02:49.199 The, um, the statistics are crazy. 00:02:49.409 --> 00:03:05.369 Um, a across the state mo most recently, um, I was doing some work with the Pennsylvania Training and Technical Assistance Network out in Pennsylvania, we got into this conversation about, um, the, the shifting role of the. 00:03:05.774 --> 00:03:07.604 Principle in the necessary shifting role. 00:03:07.604 --> 00:03:17.174 And we looked specifically at the Pennsylvania data it hits right at about 98% rated proficient. 00:03:17.264 --> 00:03:17.624 Right? 00:03:17.624 --> 00:03:19.214 So your um. 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:21.749 You've got all kinds of evidence. 00:03:21.749 --> 00:03:28.859 And if you look state to state, it's somewhere between 95 and like 98% of educators that are being rated proficient. 00:03:30.119 --> 00:03:37.829 so what that tells me is there really are very few educators that need to be evaluated, right? 00:03:37.979 --> 00:03:40.559 So when, uh, when I'm working with principals. 00:03:41.279 --> 00:03:56.699 Um, I like to say grow versus grade, grow versus grade, and that 98% of your staff need and want to grow and get better the service of their, uh, kids. 00:03:57.119 --> 00:03:58.499 So the, that. 00:03:59.339 --> 00:04:05.789 If, if we're gonna go with the grow versus grade mentality, then that does mean let, let's talk coaching, right? 00:04:05.789 --> 00:04:19.679 And let's really start to, uh, ramp up our capacity to coach the, um, there is such little research that says we should be evaluating. 00:04:20.729 --> 00:04:26.909 uh, I don't know if you're familiar with this, but the Gates Foundation spent $212 million. 00:04:27.899 --> 00:04:28.799 Studying this, 00:04:29.047 --> 00:04:30.097 It is crazy. 00:04:30.989 --> 00:04:31.469 yeah. 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:33.959 And here's what they found, right? 00:04:34.049 --> 00:04:37.679 Teacher evaluations do not lead to improved student achievement. 00:04:38.699 --> 00:04:47.279 evaluations do not lead to improved teacher effectiveness and teacher evaluations do not improve the retention rate of effective teachers. 00:04:47.969 --> 00:04:54.899 So talk about a lose, lose, lose, and we continue to invest so much, uh, time and effort. 00:04:56.579 --> 00:05:00.539 Um, I, so I went down this rabbit hole. 00:05:00.872 --> 00:05:01.052 Okay. 00:05:01.352 --> 00:05:10.292 Let me ask you, let me ask you a question there, because if there's so much evidence that these don't do the things we want 'em to, why are we still doing 'em? 00:05:12.002 --> 00:05:13.237 What's your hot take on that? 00:05:19.799 --> 00:05:31.379 Well, you know, my hot take is people are actually trying to improve that, that practice and uh, um, I find that policymakers. 00:05:32.594 --> 00:05:40.034 Do tend to, uh, value accountability in and maybe hyper value accountability. 00:05:40.247 --> 00:05:40.757 Mm-hmm. 00:05:41.114 --> 00:06:01.244 in the state of Washington, the, um, when we look at what we're trying to do with the evaluations, we've got these three really research-based professional practice frameworks we're trying to put a small percentage of our staff on comprehensive evaluation and a large percentage of our staff on targeted. 00:06:01.309 --> 00:06:02.299 Evaluation. 00:06:03.109 --> 00:06:14.449 if you dig into the language behind targeted evaluation, it's coaching, it's agreeing on something within your professional practice that you wanna get better at. 00:06:15.049 --> 00:06:17.539 And it is, it's zero risk 00:06:18.007 --> 00:06:18.427 Mm-hmm. 00:06:19.099 --> 00:06:22.549 you default to your comprehensive evaluation rating. 00:06:23.659 --> 00:06:30.649 So even if you stink it up that year while you're trying to, you know, innovate and take this, this risk with the support of your. 00:06:31.184 --> 00:06:34.064 Principle, you're still gonna be rated proficient. 00:06:34.222 --> 00:06:34.642 Mm-hmm. 00:06:35.024 --> 00:06:41.774 I think we're trying to get better at it in some places and, and I would, you know, give props to the state. 00:06:43.094 --> 00:06:49.874 and I, we're still not leveraging that targeted evaluation to be coaching the way that we need to be coaching. 00:06:50.702 --> 00:06:51.092 Yeah. 00:06:51.224 --> 00:06:53.954 could be a capacity issue with principles. 00:06:54.722 --> 00:06:55.202 Yeah. 00:06:55.262 --> 00:06:58.892 So I, I agree with those, those pieces as well. 00:06:58.892 --> 00:07:08.762 And, um, having been a principal prior to, uh, now in, uh, Alaska and Utah had a different perspective on what they were trying to do. 00:07:08.762 --> 00:07:12.422 And there's a lot of, uh, similar efforts being made in that direction. 00:07:12.422 --> 00:07:13.562 But the reality is. 00:07:14.117 --> 00:07:25.607 Is that you, I think you said it correctly that, um, policymakers hyper value, uh, evaluation and, uh, Nick Fisher used this phrase. 00:07:25.607 --> 00:07:29.567 He said the, this is the same reason why we do standardized testing. 00:07:29.807 --> 00:07:31.787 It is legislatively convenient. 00:07:32.342 --> 00:07:37.172 To be able to say, here's your particular score or whatever. 00:07:37.172 --> 00:07:52.592 And even though everybody knows that it's baloney and that it doesn't really give what we're trying, like what we're really trying to do in teacher evaluation or student achievement, we still do it because it's legislatively convenient to do that. 00:07:52.652 --> 00:08:00.122 And, and I think that teachers unions and uh, and they have a vested interest in this as well. 00:08:00.337 --> 00:08:11.257 And, and they want to be able to say like, here's this process you have to go through to discipline or get rid of a teacher, and they want that to be a comprehensive. 00:08:12.002 --> 00:08:19.592 A powerful thing that that is onerous on the administrators who are trying to get rid of teachers. 00:08:19.592 --> 00:08:33.152 Now that happens to so few, and to be honest, in my experience as a principal, it's actually easier to get rid of a teacher for their own bad actions than it is to evaluate them out, is what I would call it. 00:08:33.242 --> 00:08:36.302 Um, and so the, the. 00:08:37.352 --> 00:08:56.012 It's like everybody understands this is a bad idea and yet it's the best thing that we've got right now and and I appreciate efforts like Washington's to make it focused on that targeted evaluation rather than the comprehensive and to not punish people and to make it risk free to do some sort of growth. 00:08:56.012 --> 00:08:58.262 But I think you're absolutely right about the idea of. 00:08:58.787 --> 00:09:03.797 Uh, principals not having the capacity to know how to coach their own teachers. 00:09:04.097 --> 00:09:14.687 And that's something that I work on with all, all the principals that I work with in my mastermind of how do you help teachers through these, uh, things that they're struggling with, and how do you help them get better? 00:09:17.129 --> 00:09:19.049 That, and that's critical work. 00:09:19.342 --> 00:09:19.562 Mm. 00:09:19.709 --> 00:09:21.689 when I think about like, um. 00:09:22.079 --> 00:09:25.769 How do we induct new administrators into our school systems? 00:09:25.769 --> 00:09:29.729 And then how do we support them they're there? 00:09:32.249 --> 00:09:33.629 I don't think we do a good job of 00:09:33.842 --> 00:09:34.262 Mm-hmm. 00:09:34.469 --> 00:09:40.649 we teach, um, our, our principals how to have those coaching conversations. 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:47.129 And you know, one of the places where we kind of fall down too is, um. 00:09:49.514 --> 00:09:52.694 We don't spend a lot of time talking about what quality instruction looks 00:09:52.907 --> 00:09:53.957 Mm-hmm. 00:09:54.734 --> 00:10:00.644 and the, this might be another thing that's legislatively convenient and I love that term 00:10:00.857 --> 00:10:01.187 Yeah. 00:10:01.454 --> 00:10:03.374 I wish it wasn't so darn applicable. 00:10:03.482 --> 00:10:05.522 I know, feel free to use it as much as you want. 00:10:05.684 --> 00:10:06.374 Okay. 00:10:06.764 --> 00:10:09.524 I will, um, I think about, um. 00:10:10.004 --> 00:10:14.954 The this, uh, the term would be precision over profusion, right? 00:10:15.734 --> 00:10:27.224 so, uh, when, when we see what happens legislatively, every time we're talking about the, the calendar and the school day, we're trying to add more seat time. 00:10:27.614 --> 00:10:28.664 And more seat time. 00:10:28.784 --> 00:10:29.774 And more seat time. 00:10:30.554 --> 00:10:32.204 that's profusion, right? 00:10:32.684 --> 00:10:39.914 Whereas what we need to be valuing is this precision of craft and what do we need our educators to be really good at? 00:10:39.914 --> 00:10:43.484 And it turns out they don't have to be good at a whole bunch of stuff. 00:10:44.384 --> 00:10:49.094 There are a few things that show up in the research over and over and over again. 00:10:49.634 --> 00:10:54.524 So I think a place where we can get more powerful and, and help our. 00:10:55.589 --> 00:11:00.689 Principles to be the Transformative leaders that they can be is, let's talk about that precision. 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:12.839 help you have deep understanding of what quality instruction looks like so that you can help coach that and toward that with your staff. 00:11:13.229 --> 00:11:17.279 Like that's, that's a place where we need to, you know, shift 00:11:18.012 --> 00:11:18.302 Yeah. 00:11:19.417 --> 00:11:19.897 Yeah. 00:11:19.927 --> 00:11:21.757 Well there's, there's this idea. 00:11:21.967 --> 00:11:24.697 Of knowing what high quality instruction looks like. 00:11:24.727 --> 00:11:38.257 And so in, in one district that I worked in, we created high yielding practices for educators, a hype certification that basically said, here are the things that you should be doing as a teacher to be effective. 00:11:38.497 --> 00:11:43.777 And, and those are, those were very helpful because it made it very clear from our perspective. 00:11:44.087 --> 00:11:51.347 This is what you need to be doing and, and if you're doing these things, then good results are gonna come. 00:11:51.737 --> 00:12:00.917 You don't have to be perfect in everything, but if you do these things as best you can, that's gonna be better than you just, you know, trying to teach however. 00:12:01.457 --> 00:12:13.607 You may have been taught to teach in whatever program and how you like, survive the day to day, which is a very real thing of what am I gonna do with these kids today and how am I gonna make it meaningful? 00:12:14.057 --> 00:12:20.147 And, and having principals trained in that also is exceptionally valuable. 00:12:20.357 --> 00:12:23.027 And one little caveat that I would add. 00:12:23.352 --> 00:12:27.192 Is that instruction is different than student learning. 00:12:27.402 --> 00:12:38.532 And if the focus is on instruction, then that's a little bit different than when the focus is on what students are actually learning, which is, you know, a whole other conversation. 00:12:38.712 --> 00:12:40.272 But we're not here to talk about that one. 00:12:40.332 --> 00:12:45.132 But people who listen know that I have that little burr in my saddle, so I gotta, gotta make sure I get that in. 00:12:46.184 --> 00:12:49.334 Well, okay, let's talk a little bit about that Burr. 00:12:49.452 --> 00:12:50.262 Okay. 00:12:50.594 --> 00:12:53.864 of all, I have to say, uh, I bet you were a pretty darn good principal 00:12:54.107 --> 00:12:54.587 Thank you. 00:12:54.644 --> 00:13:00.554 that, uh, I mean, what you're talking about there, what you were establishing was what Anthony Ham calls the instructional floor. 00:13:00.827 --> 00:13:01.307 Mm-hmm. 00:13:01.484 --> 00:13:02.984 minimum quality 00:13:03.262 --> 00:13:03.752 Exactly. 00:13:04.334 --> 00:13:07.394 that we can expect to see from class, to class to class? 00:13:08.294 --> 00:13:12.254 And, um, so the, the bur in your. 00:13:13.019 --> 00:13:13.619 Saddle. 00:13:13.619 --> 00:13:15.389 There is a great bird to have. 00:13:16.259 --> 00:13:17.399 I'm a fan of coaching. 00:13:17.729 --> 00:13:19.584 I think when you hold it up to anything else. 00:13:20.384 --> 00:13:23.894 It's the thing that changes practice, it's job embedded. 00:13:23.894 --> 00:13:28.214 It's happening in the space where the materials are within the context with your kids. 00:13:29.024 --> 00:13:37.754 And we know that, uh, quality coaching programs have a 0.49 effect size, which is moving into that medium to large effect size. 00:13:37.754 --> 00:13:40.904 It's on the other side of the hinge point for Hadie, right? 00:13:41.834 --> 00:13:48.404 And that 0.49 effect size on instructional practice. 00:13:50.684 --> 00:13:54.164 A 0.8 effect size in student outcomes. 00:13:54.914 --> 00:14:07.829 So The implications there are that, um, we've gotta be pretty darn good at our craft in order to get to the student learning part of it. 00:14:08.249 --> 00:14:15.989 And then when we're thinking about what our precision of practice, it's leaning into those things that actually have impact on learning. 00:14:16.769 --> 00:14:21.329 So if we don't continue to center, like what's the impact? 00:14:21.749 --> 00:14:26.129 Like what's, what's the student understanding and learning and what are they figuring out how to. 00:14:26.624 --> 00:14:27.434 How to do 00:14:30.794 --> 00:14:34.424 we can, we can on a lot of practice 00:14:35.082 --> 00:14:35.742 Exactly. 00:14:36.179 --> 00:14:38.399 For me, that's part of where UDL comes 00:14:38.717 --> 00:14:39.137 Mm-hmm. 00:14:39.629 --> 00:14:47.819 So the, um, we talk a lot about evidence-based practice and, and you better be grounding your instructional floor in evidence-based practice. 00:14:48.389 --> 00:14:57.569 But then that evidence-based practice, in order for it to be high yield, has to be learner informed and universally designed. 00:14:58.319 --> 00:15:01.349 'cause I can have an evidence-based practice like, um. 00:15:01.829 --> 00:15:03.869 Let's say student discourse, right? 00:15:03.869 --> 00:15:06.089 And opportunities for students to respond. 00:15:06.779 --> 00:15:16.649 But if I'm not looking at my kids and thinking about what do they need in order to access that evidence-based practice, do they need pre-discussion opportunity? 00:15:16.649 --> 00:15:17.999 Do they need sentence stems? 00:15:17.999 --> 00:15:19.679 Do they need discussion protocols? 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:21.779 Because they need supports. 00:15:21.779 --> 00:15:24.779 Their home language is different than the the language of instruction. 00:15:24.809 --> 00:15:26.669 That's where we've gotta be learner informed. 00:15:26.849 --> 00:15:29.819 That's the only way that evidence base. 00:15:29.874 --> 00:15:35.904 It goes to high yield in our context and classroom, so keep that, burn your saddle and 00:15:36.612 --> 00:15:37.062 Yeah, 00:15:37.199 --> 00:15:37.489 fight. 00:15:38.442 --> 00:15:39.072 that's right. 00:15:39.132 --> 00:15:48.882 And, and so I, I love that approach of how you describe that because it, the, the best practices in the world can still fail. 00:15:49.032 --> 00:15:56.472 And if, if it works for 95% of the students, the 5% of the students are still failures in that regard. 00:15:56.592 --> 00:15:58.782 And, and for me. 00:15:59.387 --> 00:16:01.457 That's not acceptable. 00:16:01.637 --> 00:16:09.947 And you know, the, the great thing about the No Child Left Behind Act was that it was no child left behind. 00:16:10.217 --> 00:16:15.017 Unfortunately, it didn't live up to its promise in the name, but that is truly the reality. 00:16:15.287 --> 00:16:27.467 We cannot be leaving kids behind and letting them squalor over here in this, in this lack of learning because of whatever situations are. 00:16:27.752 --> 00:16:34.412 Preventing them from learning, sometimes teacher action, sometimes teacher inaction, sometimes school policies. 00:16:34.592 --> 00:16:38.607 And we need to take all those things into consideration because the. 00:16:39.257 --> 00:16:44.657 My, my approach is that school needs to be about learning, not about instruction. 00:16:44.987 --> 00:16:55.637 And that's one of those core beliefs that I have that I'm not gonna be able to be convinced that it's really about instruction, because it really should be about learning. 00:16:56.027 --> 00:16:59.357 But the instruction needs to be an important part of that. 00:16:59.357 --> 00:17:01.637 But to me, I always put learning. 00:17:01.967 --> 00:17:09.527 Over instruction as our priorities, but that doesn't mean that I think we shouldn't have good instructional practices. 00:17:09.557 --> 00:17:10.277 You know what I mean? 00:17:10.547 --> 00:17:11.712 Does that make sense, Casey? 00:17:12.834 --> 00:17:15.114 It, it totally makes sense to me. 00:17:15.114 --> 00:17:23.124 And I have, in my head, I have these three kind of drivers that, that I call, call the learner objectives. 00:17:23.304 --> 00:17:23.634 Right? 00:17:25.194 --> 00:17:28.134 for our system, what do we want our system to do? 00:17:28.134 --> 00:17:33.294 We want our system to produce kids that know how to be seen and heard in the world. 00:17:34.104 --> 00:17:38.874 We, we want it to produce kids that know how to function in the world, and we want it to produce kids that. 00:17:39.239 --> 00:17:41.669 Thrive in the world, right? 00:17:42.329 --> 00:17:59.189 So then that means in our schools and classrooms, we gotta create contexts where kids are seen and heard and they practice how to be seen and heard where kids can function in the classroom and where they can thrive in the classroom. 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:05.189 And so to me that is, that's being learner and learning centered. 00:18:06.794 --> 00:18:17.474 Then we think about what are the practices that help kids to be seen and heard, to help all kids, some, to be able to function and all kids to, to be able to thrive. 00:18:17.864 --> 00:18:19.484 That, I mean, that's our logic model. 00:18:19.484 --> 00:18:27.074 If we're not doing it in the context of our, our schools and classrooms, why would we think that all of our kids are gonna be able to do this in the broader community? 00:18:27.254 --> 00:18:31.994 And we keep leaving a whole bunch of kids out of that equation. 00:18:32.267 --> 00:18:39.917 Yes, a absolutely, and and that's something that I've been, you know, hammering again and again and again over the years. 00:18:40.217 --> 00:18:55.607 And, um, I. And what's so cool is we didn't know each other before we got on the call today, and yet, uh, I can see how we are very much aligned in these things and, and the need for bringing all of our, all of our kids forward. 00:18:56.701 --> 00:19:03.091 So let's, let's talk a little bit about what the role of the principal is. 00:19:03.436 --> 00:19:20.926 In all of this, how, how does a principal who's got these somewhat Orwellian or just terrible evaluation standards hanging over their heads, how do they emphasize this idea of coaching instead of evaluation? 00:19:20.926 --> 00:19:24.016 What would be your advice to someone who. 00:19:24.341 --> 00:19:41.111 Who still has to do these things besides just not doing them, which, you know, we could talk for a while about how, how to do that, but that was, that was my approach in a lot of situations that I just didn't do the evaluation as they wanted me to do it because I knew that it wasn't necessary, but. 00:19:41.431 --> 00:19:44.581 A lot of people are scared of doing that, so that's not the solution. 00:19:44.581 --> 00:19:50.401 But if you guys are listening and you wanna chat with me more about that, just reach out and I'll tell you the secrets to doing that. 00:19:50.401 --> 00:19:54.931 But, but how do, how do, what advice would you give a principal in this situation? 00:19:55.171 --> 00:19:56.131 Got these evaluations? 00:19:56.131 --> 00:19:56.941 How do I manage it? 00:19:58.198 --> 00:20:00.328 Okay, let me start a little bit bigger than that and just 00:20:00.361 --> 00:20:01.321 Oh, okay. 00:20:01.618 --> 00:20:03.298 That the principle is principle. 00:20:03.901 --> 00:20:04.471 Yes. 00:20:04.873 --> 00:20:07.933 The principal, PAL is principal, PLE, 00:20:08.251 --> 00:20:08.521 Yeah. 00:20:08.803 --> 00:20:20.533 and the, I think the research is really clear about that, and I'd kind of like to dig into Linda Darling Hammond's work around this idea that schools change life trajectories. 00:20:21.463 --> 00:20:29.353 So, um, individual pockets of isolated excellence do not life trajectories. 00:20:29.353 --> 00:20:29.773 Right? 00:20:29.773 --> 00:20:31.754 It's a, it's, uh, uh. 00:20:32.938 --> 00:20:34.228 It's everybody, right? 00:20:34.288 --> 00:20:37.528 It's the, it's the, uh, it's the collective commitment. 00:20:38.458 --> 00:20:48.418 And when we, you know, when we follow that effect size and we look at what collective, uh, efficacy does for student outcomes, that's where we start to really work magic. 00:20:48.718 --> 00:20:54.508 So the principle is critical in creating a, a community, right? 00:20:54.898 --> 00:20:57.268 Equity requires community. 00:20:57.388 --> 00:21:00.598 So what is the, the role that, that the principle is? 00:21:01.003 --> 00:21:07.933 Playing in that we, here's the thing, I, I like to think of two visual models. 00:21:07.933 --> 00:21:23.863 One of them is the wagon wheel that puts the principal in the center of the wheel he goes out each of the spokes or she goes out each of the spokes and works with each of the individual teachers providing feedback, trying to help, you know, improve practice. 00:21:24.733 --> 00:21:28.843 other model is the, the neurologic. 00:21:29.863 --> 00:21:31.903 the, the web of the brain, 00:21:31.941 --> 00:21:32.361 Mm-hmm. 00:21:32.473 --> 00:21:32.893 right? 00:21:33.613 --> 00:21:52.903 And in schools that de privatize practice and take the principle out of the center of that wagon wheel and get people talking about each other's practice, get people into each other's classrooms, each other in meeting those expectations are the instructional floor. 00:21:53.203 --> 00:21:54.583 That's where the magic is. 00:21:55.963 --> 00:22:07.573 So now you're trying to say, okay, I don't want to be the wagon wheel, because non-negotiables and external accountability are something completely different than collective commitments and internal accountability. 00:22:09.103 --> 00:22:12.763 and external accountability don't get you to collective efficacy ever. 00:22:13.003 --> 00:22:16.813 And yet here we have this evaluation system that is wagon wheel, 00:22:16.946 --> 00:22:17.366 Mm-hmm. 00:22:17.413 --> 00:22:17.803 right? 00:22:18.553 --> 00:22:23.683 So you have to figure out how to orient yourself in. 00:22:24.103 --> 00:22:41.053 You're, you're one part of this de privatizing practice, and so when you're going in that you have to outta the gate, change the nature of the conversation with your teachers say, this is a coaching conversation, 00:22:41.396 --> 00:22:41.816 Mm-hmm. 00:22:42.223 --> 00:22:44.983 This is figuring out how you wanna get better. 00:22:45.823 --> 00:22:50.713 one person in your life, in this school community that can help with that conversation. 00:22:51.733 --> 00:22:53.113 I can be a connector. 00:22:53.293 --> 00:22:59.593 So if we're, know, if we're, I've gotta, I have to be in here, here two times a year. 00:22:59.833 --> 00:23:00.913 Right? 00:23:01.003 --> 00:23:07.243 But let's figure out who you want to have in here beyond that, or do you need me more than that? 00:23:07.633 --> 00:23:17.743 Because we're creating a relationship that actually is, is one that's, you know, based on radical candor and, and helping you to improve versus Gotcha. 00:23:18.066 --> 00:23:18.486 Mm-hmm. 00:23:19.048 --> 00:23:24.208 So I think you have to be transparent outta the gate and say, there is no gotcha here. 00:23:24.778 --> 00:23:46.078 This is, you know, I'm one person in your life that can help to, to coach the, if you, um, if you're sitting in that principal chair and you've never received any professional learning, professional development around what it means to coach and what the different stances are, I think that's critical. 00:23:47.158 --> 00:23:51.808 then thinking about like the language that we use is so important. 00:23:52.078 --> 00:23:57.178 How we figure out how to sit shoulder to shoulder with our teachers and have a third thing in the room. 00:23:57.328 --> 00:24:00.178 That that's the thing that we talk about. 00:24:00.928 --> 00:24:12.928 Um, tho those are some of that skillset that we assume that you have just because you got ES escalated to that chair that that's part of the work. 00:24:12.973 --> 00:24:13.323 Right. 00:24:13.391 --> 00:24:32.801 Yeah, and, and I think an essential part of the work and helping, I, I really like that idea of the wagon wheel versus the node of a, of a network that is much more powerful for my problem with the term of the, uh, instructional leader in the school is that it assumes that. 00:24:32.806 --> 00:24:38.086 Uh, the title assumes that this person is the be all and end all, and that's just not the case. 00:24:38.356 --> 00:24:45.316 And I've, I've learned so much more about instruction since leaving the classroom and going into administration. 00:24:45.616 --> 00:24:46.306 Guess why? 00:24:46.606 --> 00:24:55.966 Because I've seen so many different people teach, you know, and that's not rocket science, but being it like, I love the idea of de privatizing. 00:24:56.251 --> 00:25:08.221 Um, the instructional practices because it's not like go in your room and close the door and nobody knows what goes on in there, and these magical children come out like that's not helpful to anybody and certainly not the kids. 00:25:08.221 --> 00:25:15.721 If they have one great teacher who hoards all the information about how to be excellent, that's not helpful to anybody. 00:25:15.721 --> 00:25:16.531 But if everybody. 00:25:16.946 --> 00:25:20.216 Says, Hey, here are the things that are working and here's what we're doing. 00:25:20.216 --> 00:25:34.316 That's working well, and here are the non-instructional practices, but the community building, the relationship building, the, uh, what I call organic skills that you develop, uh, which people typically call soft skills. 00:25:35.096 --> 00:25:38.036 These are the organic skills that we are developing in the classroom. 00:25:38.296 --> 00:25:44.326 Those things go so far to help improve everybody and raise everybody to a higher level. 00:25:44.326 --> 00:25:52.426 And that's, that's how it has to be in order for us to really make those schools, uh, a place that does change life trajectories. 00:25:53.671 --> 00:25:53.791 I, 00:25:54.393 --> 00:25:56.098 I, I a hundred percent with you. 00:25:56.098 --> 00:26:01.288 And, and the, I mean, we could talk a lot about the research that you just nailed 00:26:01.371 --> 00:26:01.661 yeah. 00:26:03.358 --> 00:26:05.158 right there, but the, the 00:26:05.191 --> 00:26:12.271 But I try to make this approachable so that normal people who aren't researchers can say, yes, this, we can do this and it can work. 00:26:12.331 --> 00:26:18.421 But, um, but you're right, this, the stuff that I'm saying isn't just like, Hey, I just pulled this outta thin air. 00:26:18.451 --> 00:26:21.631 This is stuff that actually does work and is valuable. 00:26:22.873 --> 00:26:24.313 Yeah, for sure. 00:26:24.403 --> 00:26:39.223 The, I mean, when we, when we drill down into idea that precision over profusion, we're gonna name those few things that you know, we, we've, we've worked backwards from what our kids need and our student population. 00:26:39.223 --> 00:26:40.513 We're naming those things. 00:26:41.503 --> 00:26:54.358 Then to get to collective commitment on that, to have goal consensus, The role of the leader, really, they describe it as supportive leadership in the service of empowered teachers. 00:26:54.988 --> 00:27:00.658 And so you're supportive enough to empower the teachers to do this work together? 00:27:01.108 --> 00:27:01.528 Right. 00:27:01.648 --> 00:27:11.308 And then, um, the, the teachers work together to build this cohesive knowledge set and skillset that they're recognizing in their community is important. 00:27:11.578 --> 00:27:13.258 Turns out that the. 00:27:13.903 --> 00:27:23.143 Other leg of that stool, that three-legged stool is embedded reflective opportunities to talk about your practice, which includes 00:27:24.851 --> 00:27:25.071 Yep. 00:27:25.556 --> 00:27:25.766 Yeah. 00:27:25.873 --> 00:27:39.973 So the bringing us kind of back full circle, if, if, if you're a part of that process, because you have to be as an evaluator, change your orientation for 98% of your staff. 00:27:41.158 --> 00:27:47.323 Understand it as an opportunity for reflective, embedded, you know, practice conversations. 00:27:48.143 --> 00:27:49.203 That's, it's huge. 00:27:49.841 --> 00:27:50.201 Yeah. 00:27:50.441 --> 00:28:05.651 And if, if you are actually in your teacher's classrooms and are aware of what's going on, you can very comfortably do that and still meet the requirements of the evaluation and, you know, that, that is so key. 00:28:05.951 --> 00:28:08.891 Um, the last question that I ask is. 00:28:09.391 --> 00:28:10.741 It we've talked about a lot. 00:28:10.801 --> 00:28:17.791 So what is one thing that a principal can do this week, an action item to be a Transformative leader like you, Casey. 00:28:23.953 --> 00:28:25.183 Well, I think the, 00:28:27.523 --> 00:28:36.073 the, the, uh, the big thing right here is getting to de privatization in our school. 00:28:37.618 --> 00:28:47.578 And, uh, I, I, I think getting out of that wagon wheel, and one of the ways that you do that is, is you think about the, the teams, right? 00:28:47.638 --> 00:28:58.588 Who are the teams of people that are doing the work in your school and the sit down for 30 minute and do a teams audit. 00:28:59.578 --> 00:29:03.958 When do I have people meeting together in the service of student learning 00:29:06.433 --> 00:29:07.693 Is it really happening? 00:29:08.593 --> 00:29:24.598 The, of the things that I see that scares the cred outta me is when there isn't a, a school leadership team that is capturing the collective wisdom of the school community and processing that with the principal. 00:29:24.598 --> 00:29:33.373 I'll see, I'll see these principals that are trying to operate as a lone wolf in, in schools, and it's, it's just too complex a craft for that. 00:29:33.373 --> 00:29:36.343 So do, do a. Teams audit. 00:29:36.343 --> 00:29:47.323 I know that may sound a little bit kind of off track from, you know, what we've been talking about this whole time, but, um, that's because, because community creates equity, right? 00:29:47.533 --> 00:29:56.458 And so you've gotta be thinking about that and how, how functional are those, are those teams and do they know what their purpose is, what problem they're trying to solve? 00:29:57.261 --> 00:30:02.661 Yeah, I, I think that is perfectly in line with what we're talking about is you have to. 00:30:03.261 --> 00:30:07.731 Uh, you have to take time to work on your school, not just in your school. 00:30:08.001 --> 00:30:16.161 And this is one of those things that you need to do, is you need to say, when are teachers required and supposed to be working in a team? 00:30:16.251 --> 00:30:21.051 And what are they doing during that time and is that an effective use of their time? 00:30:21.381 --> 00:30:22.461 And, uh. 00:30:23.086 --> 00:30:41.656 Uh, heaven forbid I say anything bad about PLCs, but if your PLCs are not producing the kind of results that they should be, then you better do something to change it because that is powerful, powerful time that can be used in a much more effective way if it's not getting you the results that you're looking for. 00:30:41.866 --> 00:30:52.036 And you just have to be aware that, that, that those structures may need to change, and you have to have the courage to walk in and change them if they're not providing what they need to. 00:30:52.918 --> 00:30:53.308 Yeah. 00:30:53.788 --> 00:30:58.198 I mean those need to be small group coaching conversations with them by colleagues 00:30:58.381 --> 00:30:59.371 Yeah, totally. 00:30:59.548 --> 00:31:03.843 yeah, that run parallel with the the coaching conversations that you're now gonna have instead of. 00:31:04.648 --> 00:31:06.208 Evaluation conversations. 00:31:06.451 --> 00:31:06.811 right. 00:31:06.931 --> 00:31:07.171 Yeah. 00:31:07.228 --> 00:31:12.958 start layering those parallel practices and opportunities for educators to work with each other to get better. 00:31:13.798 --> 00:31:14.668 It's, yeah. 00:31:15.041 --> 00:31:22.561 Yeah, if, if your PLC meetings are just people looking at data, you're missing the boat and it, it needs to be more than that. 00:31:22.561 --> 00:31:31.036 And I love how you said it, that it needs to be a. A, a coaching conversation with those teachers that, that that is what it's about. 00:31:31.036 --> 00:31:35.536 And yeah, um, I think we can have a whole nother conversation about that. 00:31:35.956 --> 00:31:44.506 In fact, I need to see if that's my next book is How to Make Your PLCs Put The Coaching Back in PLCs, professional Learning Coaching Communities. 00:31:44.566 --> 00:31:45.376 There we go. 00:31:45.808 --> 00:31:46.018 it. 00:31:46.606 --> 00:31:46.996 All right. 00:31:46.996 --> 00:31:48.106 We'll see how this goes. 00:31:48.256 --> 00:31:51.526 Casey, thank you so much for being a part of Transformative Principle today. 00:31:51.526 --> 00:31:52.306 This was awesome. 00:31:53.068 --> 00:31:53.548 Thank you. 00:31:53.548 --> 00:31:54.238 My pleasure.