Jason Peck

Show Notes

Intro: Gina is totally over it. Performing chores, repetition, BOREDOM, the promise of Clubhouse.
Let Me Run This By You: Have you ever committed a crime unintentionally?
Interview: We talk to Jason Peck about studying at not one but two theatre schools - USC and Florida State University. Jason helps us compare the different conservatory experiences. Also, the trope of "breaking you down to build you up", studying alongside the likes of Leonardo DiCaprio and Maggie Gyllenhaal at the Young Actors Space as a child actor, what Jason has learned about teaching the craft of acting. Then, we talk about Eric Bogosian and the rewrites of SubUrbia that Jason was a part of.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Speaker 1: (00:08)
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Are you high going out?

Speaker 2: (00:33)
There's only so much playing in the snow you can do, right. I mean, there's,

Speaker 3: (00:37)
There's only so much playing in the snow. You can do. I think we're in the phase and maybe we've always been in or been at it for a while or we're returning to it. But the phase of the self isolation where it's like, we're all kind of low key, like nothing matters. There's no point to anything. This is all just, yes, this is all just like, like I'll be doing the dishes and I'll just think like, I'm just performing this dishes act, right. Just performing the trash act. I mean, it's all like, I'm not suggesting that it would be better if we just ignored that and lived in, uh, in squalor, but at the same time, right. It's just does feel like, what are we doing?

Speaker 2: (01:21)
Yeah, it is. It is, it does feel like it's never, um, for me, I just go back and forth to different houses that aren't my house. Uh, we just keep, we keep eating. We keep going, you know, to the bathroom, it's just the same. And it's just, it just there's, uh, we need a break. We all need a break and something fun to happen because this is, this is pretty, you know? Yes. It could be worse. Yes. We're healthy, relatively speaking. And, but it's real boring. I mean, I think what you're talking about is a real deep level border Bordeaux going on.

Speaker 3: (01:59)
One of the things, one of the States of being that I dislike the most is being bored, but ha but having a lot to do. Yeah. Like having a lot of tasks on my plate. Um, and I should say, I mean, I am finding things to keep me stimulated. I'm not entirely bored. I can say that there's was a good portion of my life since living here. Well, even, maybe before, uh, where I was extremely busy working really hard and just so bored because nothing was feeding me creatively, whatever intellectually. So thank God for this venture between us. Thank God for a clubhouse, which I'm addicted to.

Speaker 2: (02:56)
Okay. Close, cut. Cause everyone I'm seeing in all my forum, like all of the pages, I'm a part of online, like, right. Like I'm a part of some writer's groups. I'm a part of some women's Facebook thing. Everyone is going on clubhouse now. So I'm once our, after our interview today, I'm going to T-Mobile and get my, and get my iPhone. Good.

Speaker 4: (03:15)
Oh, I'm so excited for you. Yeah, you're gonna, I mean, it's like a blessing and a curse it's w if you're like me, you'll get on it and then it's hard to get, it's hard to get off of it. Um, but it's amazing because, and I've been saying this so much recently, but it's still true. It's amazing because it's talking about boring. Part of what's boring about social media is that you're just seeing so much of people's self curated self image, and you never know like what to believe about what the person is presenting to you. And in this case, I mean, I'm certain, there are ways that people can filter themselves on this app too. But for how it is for right now for me is it's only people's voices.

Speaker 4: (04:12)
So there's, to me, there's nothing to hide behind. I mean, you're hiding because you don't have to, we don't have to see your face, but, but to me, like the value of a person is not in their face, it's in their minds. And you know, not, not to say like they have to be intellectual or anything like that. I'm just saying like P people's perspective. People's thoughts about the world. That's, what's compelling to me about other people or not compelling to me about other people as the case may be and what you find on, on clubhouses people. And, and don't get me wrong. There's plenty of, I was saying to somebody last night, so far, I can identify a few different tiers or, or categories of people. And it's same thing as true on any other social media platform. But, um, there's the internet hustlers, the people who are trying to make a buck, the life coaches, the preneurs, the venture, you know, so there's that whole side of things. Then there's, you know, people who, and this may be a lot, a lot of, a lot of us people who are, have been so socially isolated, that they're just longing for human connection. Um, and I forgot where I was going.

Speaker 2: (05:25)
That's okay. But there's different tiers of people. So like, so there's different categories of like, who who's trying to do, what on there.

Speaker 4: (05:33)
Right. Who's trying to do what, and, and, and the, the, the category that I'm finding myself attracted to is something that I really have not done very much of in my life, which is trying to synthesize different worlds together. So like, there's a lot of tech people on there, and I don't know anything about tech and there's a lot of big thinkers

Speaker 3: (05:58)
On there, which I'm not a big thinker. So, so when the, when you were in a room and you hear the tech people talking to the, um, to, uh, some artistic type of person talking to some finance type of person, and they're all smart, you're hearing the way that they look at the world as much more integrated than I tend to think, and to think about things in silos, you know, like, there's like, like how I describe clubhouse. There are these three sections of people. Those people probably wouldn't say that they would probably say, there's the people who are talking about something real. And then the people who aren't, the people who are talking about something real are really like integrating, I've heard all kinds of terms. I've never heard of looking things up all the time. Yeah. It's very exciting. It's very cool. And last night, um, the person who got me onto this app is the sky.

Speaker 3: (06:53)
I know, even, not really, even that well, but I'm getting to know him so much better. Um, who's in theater and we want to do something on there. That's theater related. And we had a meeting last night to try to figure out what we should do. And I was thinking very simply, like, we should just read plays. We should, we should, um, bring back sort of like the radio play version of things, uh, which is fine. And we could do that, but who ended up coming into the room was this guy who has nothing to do with theater, except that he's a huge, he's a musician and he's a connoisseur of all the arts. And he started talking about it just started going off on this tangent about the opera. And I first, I was like, where is this going? And what he was really talking about was why he loves opera is it's this distilled like cauldron of passion. Oh, that is so undeniable. And, and it got me to thinking like, what else we could do besides just reading plays anyway, it's a whole lot thing, but it was fun and exciting and interesting and engaging. And I realized that if I feel engaged in that way, I can then go do the rest of my boring. I think that's so true.

Speaker 2: (08:11)
I, I can totally relate to that. There was a time when I was working in social services and I had zero creative, any, any fulfilling thing happening in my life. And I thought I can't do this. I literally felt, uh, it was, it was beyond depression. It wasn't, uh, it wasn't like a clinical depression. It was more like, Oh, I cannot sustain this. I have to make a change. It was active. I was like, Oh, I need something creative in my life. And that's when I started telling, writing and telling stories that these like open mic, you know, live lit storytelling nights because I was like, I need something. All I'm doing is, you know, doing therapy in groups with, with addicts all day. And I, this is not, and that was not fulfilling my creative, the creative needs. So it's interesting that you say that. Yeah, I agree. I can do the tasks, the taxes, the mundane tasks. If I have something in my life that is really exciting. And I think we're all reaching the point of the pandemic where it's like, what is exciting? And so I'm glad clubhouse has come along because now we have a new thing.

Speaker 3: (09:18)
Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's something to get excited about. And that's an interesting point. I, I, I'm not certain how well this might've taken off. If it weren't for the pandemic, maybe it would have, because it's still, it's still fulfilling this need of the getting rid of the noise and garbage of the social media platforms as they us. And I'm sure it's only a matter of time before. There's a bunch of noise and garbage on this one too, but to be in the, and I, I, you know, it's been around, I guess since June, but most people like the earliest, I really see people having joined is October. Mostly people are like coming into it in the last month.

Speaker 2: (10:03)
It's really, and a lot of industry people like entertainment, industry talks and, and are doing all their stuff on clubhouse, like join counselors.

Speaker 3: (10:13)
Yes. There's a ton of that. Actors filmed. It. It's all, it's a lot of film and TV. I mean, when they have, um, industry stuff, but also a lot of stuff about podcasting. So I joined several podcasts and I got all that info that I was sharing them.

Speaker 2: (10:31)
Oh, good. So good. I really, I really, I'm really excited. I'm also excited to get an iPhone that way we can do all kinds of things. There's face-time miles and miles said, when I said, I'm getting an iPhone today, he said, will you FaceTime me? I'm like miles. We live together. We're always together. What are we FaceTiming? What am I? He has an iPhone. And he's, he has an iPhone fancy one. And I'm here with an Android from, you know, the Ford administration. I don't know.

Speaker 3: (10:59)
You go down the Android path

Speaker 2: (11:03)
Really. You know, I think it stems from my, um, okay. So, you know, all transparency when I left and I hope I don't go to jail, but when I left my, my big wig job in Hollywood, for me, it was a big wig job. Everyone else was like, ah, but when I left that job, I maintained a cell phone. That was not, that was being paid for by the company. And I, and that was, that was all Android based. And so then when there would have been a natural transition to like, Hey, just get an iPhone. Like everyone else. I just, I had already been like in entrenched in, in, in non iPhone phone situation. And now, and then it just got to be that thing where it's like too late. Like, I, I just felt like so behind that, I was just like, Oh, I'll just stay with my Samsung. And now I'm like, no, no, just, well,

Speaker 3: (11:57)
And that, that's what people who were really into blackberries. They had a hard time giving them their blackberries, but to, you know, to be honest, sometimes I really resent being, so co-opted into Apple that I like, I could never make a change now I am. So, you know, all in there. It's so entangles, um, and for the most part that that's fine. It's great. They're great applications. It's great technology, but at some point it's going to be terrible and get eclipsed by something else, and then we're going to be stuck with it.

Speaker 2: (12:35)
Yeah. I mean, there's the whole thinking of like one Facebook falls, you know, if face, because that's a matter of time because of so many problems and it's like, what are we, are we all gonna move to clubhouse and just do that? And then, or is there going to be another platform that's like Facebook that people I'm sure of developing madly and it just hasn't taken off yet. And they're probably all out there. So we're all just, you know what we're sheeple. I mean, it's, it's, that's what we are. That's okay. What else can we do? I mean, we're just yet, we're just, we can buy and we're just trying to get through. We're just trying to get through.

Speaker 5: (13:11)
Everybody is trying to get through, let me run this by you. Have you ever,

Speaker 2: (13:24)
Um, committed? This is, this is kind of crazy, but have you ever committed a crime inadvertently, meaning have you ever set a fire by accident? Have you ever, um, and I, have you ever not intentionally committed a crime? Okay. Now miles is chiming in about intent about crime. It doesn't matter miles, miles. He really wants to be a part of this. Like miles has the secret longing. I love it. Okay. But here it can be a part of it sometimes. Yeah. But not now. So, um, so, so here's why I'm saying that I, once this is, I once had a cigarette, I did not intend for this to happen. And I was outside in, uh, where was, I think it was somewhere on the East coast during my year off theater school times. And I, my cherry of my cigarette landed in a garbage can and it knighted, the whole garbage can outdoors. And then I walked away. So my question is like, have you ever done something where you're like, that could totally, I walked away. I didn't know what to do it, where something gets bigger than you. And then you have to just either choose, I'm going to call nine one one, or I'm going to walk away.

Speaker 3: (14:47)
Oh, wow. I mean, I I'm sure I have first thing that came to mind, two things came to mind when you first said that, that related to me, dry driving while stoned, which I do not endorse, I do not condone. I should have never done it. But my defense is that I was 23 or something like 22. When I did that, the garbage can incident. The first time was when Russell and I drove to see you from Chicago to, um, to Massachusetts. Do you remember that? And we got really stoned and then drove. And we were driving through Pennsylvania, you know, when you go through Pennsylvania and it's just like a long, straight line kind of thing. And we got pulled over and I was super freaked out. Cause I think we had quite a bit of marijuana on deck there. And I actually don't remember why we got pulled over. I don't think it was for speeding. It might've been for going too slow.

Speaker 3: (16:01)
Oh my gosh, that's brilliant. And so when the officer came up to the window, I just threw a hail Mary pass, trying to think of something. And I said, you know, something, this state has the most beautiful flower beds on the, um, median. And as if this was a IM improbable scene in a movie, he said, Oh, I'm so glad you mentioned that that's called purple vetch. And we're very proud of it in the state of Pennsylvania. And we proceeded to talk about this plant, you know, meanwhile, I'm thinking about the real plant that I don't want him to talk about for a good seven minutes before he let us go. Yeah. Yeah. He never, you never remember like the crime that you or the infraction you committed. It was probably driving too slow. I think it was driving too slow on the freeway the other time who was also in my purple bash.

Speaker 3: (17:10)
Okay. Oh my God. Yeah. The time was also in my twenties. I went to visit a guy that I was friends with in high school. And man, this kid, I love this kid, great guy. Um, but he was squatting in a house. Um, he had moved there legally and paid the rent and then something happened to his landlord. They just disappeared. So he just kept staying there and not paying the rent. And the way that he made his living was he grew marijuana and inside of his house, he had, um, you know, a special hydroponic. So that actually meant that, um, the entire house was covered in mold black, black mold, because there were so much moisture. And I was like, Hey, um, Matt, um, your wall, your walls are like real black. I mean, it was like why there were white? Well, he's like, yeah, it's from the, you know, it's, it's from the hydroponics.

Speaker 3: (18:22)
And I'm like, yeah, I, I think that's pretty bad for your, for your lungs. And he, he was unconcerned. Anyway, I got very stone and I left and then I was driving the wrong way down a one-way street. And once again, I, I was pulled over and this is my white privilege speaking, you know, of course like I, if I had been, if I had a different skin tone, I would, in both of these cases, I probably would have been arrested. I should have been arrested. Yeah. Driving the wrong way down a one way street. Um, but I, I got led off. Other than that, I feel I am so annoyingly rule-bound and, and, and, and very concerned about being in trouble with authority. I, I, I, when I was six years old, I stole a chapstick. I have never stolen anything since then stolen anything since then.

Speaker 3: (19:23)
Um, I, I'm very afraid of committing crimes, so I probably have, I mean, I've, you know, not anymore, but like when I first met Aaron, he, he thought nothing of, um, walking out of a store with something and it was never like, I'm going to steal this. It was like, he went up to the line, it was too long. So he just walked out, wow. Something, something got missed in the cart and he's like, Oh, whatever, it's no big deal. And he doesn't do that anymore because I'm like, Oh no, Oh, no, sir, this is, this is not ethical. So I, my, my, my sense of that is like probably, Oh, overdetermined because of my narrative.

Speaker 2: (20:04)
Yeah. Oh yeah. See, my ne'er do well, father too, I think, but I might more like more like misadventures. Like I didn't plan on it. And then like, okay, one time in, in New York city, I was there for Thanksgiving and this is not a crime, but it's like a mishap that goes horribly wrong. So in New York city, I was visiting my friend and we were making a Turkey and, um, for Thanksgiving, and it is small small apartment, and it was a Turkey, one of those disposable, aluminum, Turkey things, Turkey, roasting pants. So, you know, it has a lot of juices and stuff. And so as we're pulling with Turkey out the bottom scrapes off of the pan, and it becomes a huge Inferno in the oven, grease fire, a grease fire. So we didn't know what to do. So we go to the hallway and get, if you're not supposed to do this, but we get the, there's a firehose in the hallway and we get the fire hose. And we sprayed the Turkey in the oven with the firehose, which doesn't put out the fire, but creates the mental amount of wetness and smoke, which then pulls, sets up the whole sprinkler system in a whole building, Oh God, we didn't know what to do. So we lacked the doors. We put the hose back, we'd lock the doors. We pretended like, no one was home. We put towels under the doors so that we can't breathe because it's so smoky, but we don't want people. Oh, the police came, it was a whole situation.

Speaker 3: (21:35)
Oh man, I have inadvertently triggered several fire alarms at my house due to not knowing the nuances of owning a chimney. And, you know, because I live, I never had a chimney before I grew up in California. No flu the flu dude. It was that it was very that. So, uh, yeah, one, the, one of the times that the, um, fire department came was, um, we had some people staying at our house, uh, people who stressed me out quite a lot. And they finally went to bed and I was like, all I want is just to make this little fire and sit by it and have my little moment of peace and repose. And sure enough, just this billowing smoke. And it wasn't because I didn't open the flu. It was for some other reason. Oh, it was, you know, you have to do this thing where you like crack the window. So you get the, yeah. It just didn't have like proper ventilation, proper ventilation.

Speaker 2: (22:42)
The fire department had to come.

Speaker 3: (22:44)
Yes. Ma'am yes. Ma'am. And these people who stressed me out were really stressing me out after that. And it turned it into a whole thing of like, are you okay? Is there something, you know, it's just, we don't need to get into that. But yeah, no, I, I, I, I wish I had a, a nicer, a better, like, more exciting answer to your question. I wish I had inadvertently committed a crime and just watched it all on my crimes were probably all interpersonal, you know, um, real, I, by the way, I, so often every time I'm editing one of these episodes, I'm listening to myself say something that I know I did not intend to sound rude. And it sounds so rude. Oh, Oh, okay. There's just been a number of times where, you know, how it happens a lot is somebody says our guests will be saying something and I'll have in mind the next question I want to ask, which may or may not be related to that. And I feel like I have to put a button on what they said, acknowledging, you know, but it just comes out sounding insincere. So like, if you're the guest and you say, yeah. And, and so that I was so frightened of my audition and, and, you know, my knees were shaking the whole time and then they'll kind of trail off and I'll say, um, yeah, it was really scary anyway, you know, and I never need it.

Speaker 3: (24:35)
Maybe it's not coming across that way. And also today on the podcast, we have Jason Peck. Jason is a founder and the co-artistic director of Thrones stone theater company in Ridgefield, Connecticut. He's also an actor and a director and a teacher who teaches theater to high school students. And he is not a graduate of the theater school, but he is a graduate of two other theater schools. So please enjoy our interview with Jason Peck. So your action. So we might as well start, congratulations, you survived theater school, you survived it twice. You went to two different theater schools, which I, you, I think you're the first person I've ever known. Who's done that

Speaker 6: (25:32)
Blend for punishment and went back for more.

Speaker 3: (25:35)
And you are the first person we're talking to, who didn't go to our theater school. So we're very, very curious to know about the ways in which, um, these conservatories are the same and which there are different, um, having listened to a couple of episodes, ha ha has anything struck you as being like, Oh, we didn't do it that way at, at USC because you went to USC and then you went to MFA in Florida, right?

Speaker 6: (25:59)
Yeah. So I got my BFA from university of Southern California and my MFA from FSU in Sarasota. I, you know, I think the thing that the, the, the thread that connects, uh, between me your experience and my experience is that I feel like there was, um, a lot of, um, crossing the boundaries, um, of, uh, of what is considered appropriate in terms of like contact with students and, um, power trips, head trips, um, and people using their, um, their power, um, in, in, in a situation where they're working with very young kids, 18, 19, 18, 19 year olds and using their power to really kind of, um, Lord lorded over them. So I think that's something that I, that I recognize that that happened, um, in my BFA program, not so much my MFA program, although I think that I, I was an older student in my MFA program. I was like 30 years old. So I think it was like a little bit, uh, older and wiser to the shenanigans that went on. Um, and didn't really care so much about pleasing my professors, which I think like when you're 18, 19 years old, it's all those about like, trying to get that Pat on the head for sure. Um, yeah.

Speaker 7: (27:11)
So did you, Oh, go ahead, bus. Well, I was just going to say, you know, to take it even back further, cause I'm, I'm super curious about, were you a child, uh, actor, were you a child actor?

Speaker 6: (27:23)
I was, I lived in Los Angeles, so, um, I did primarily commercials and stuff like that, but I, uh, when I was nine years old, I started taking acting lessons at a place called young actors space, which is kind of like, um, the young acting studio for a lot of like up-and-coming TV stars, like, you know, uh, uh, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Jake Gyllenhaal went there and, uh, this, uh, Frank Zappa's kid, Ahmet, Zappa went there and, um, uh, Leonardo DiCaprio and people like that. So I was with them when they were, when they were kids. I'm gonna think about it as my, my parents were very, very, very clear that they didn't want to schlep me from audition to audition. So it was more along the lines of like they recognized I was never really good in sports. I always joke that like the position I played when I played on the field was left out,

Speaker 7: (28:14)
I would be left. I would be left behind.

Speaker 6: (28:19)
Um, so I think my, my parents were just thrilled that I like actually gravitated towards something that I was actually halfway decent at. So they kind of like tried to move me in that direction. So since I was nine years old, I was in kind of like an acting studio environment,

Speaker 7: (28:33)
But your parents are not in the industry. So you had to really truly find that on your own. Did you find it just when you were nine or were you looking for it before that? Um, I think, yeah.

Speaker 6: (28:43)
What was the spark that kind of lit? It is, I was in fourth grade and I'm not going to Dysport as I said, and I got cast as the scarecrow in a Halloween play, and I felt really, really good about my work. And my parents were like, wow, this is something that he can do. And they just, basically at that point, just opened the yellow pages and, you know, found like an acting studio and they, you know, did some reference checks and stuff like that. And then I started going there and it was a pretty intense program where, cause I was, I was nine years old and I was going twice a week for three hours every evening. So it was fairly intense. It was fairly intense. Um, uh, but uh, my parents, they, they saw that I was thriving. So they basically kind of encouraged it more than anything. Um,

Speaker 7: (29:28)
That's unbelievable. Do you think, do, does that program still exist in, does it still work that in that same way? It does

Speaker 6: (29:35)
Because, uh, the, the kids that go there usually are kids that are either series or not on series. And basically they're not in school, they're either homeschooled or something like that. So those are the kind of kids that go there. It was hardcore.

Speaker 7: (29:52)
It is. I can't, I mean, the commitment, the commitment you had as a, as a nine-year-old my Lord, I was like wearing fluorescent colors and trying not to get, you know, picked out and I, you, you were like a pro. Wow.

Speaker 6: (30:07)
But for me it wasn't like, it didn't feel like, you know, I'm like, I'm a serious artist, you know, studying. It was more, it was like, it was like summer camp. It was like fun, you know, a good play pretend. So it didn't really feel like, you know, working my craft and like all those things, it felt, it felt very much like fun.

Speaker 4: (30:22)
It's interesting that you make your living now teaching younger people acting it's been in the high school setting most. Oh no, I guess it's also middle school, middle school and high school,

Speaker 6: (30:32)
Middle school, high school. And, uh, for three years I was a visiting artist at North Carolina state university. So I've taught at the college level as well.

Speaker 4: (30:40)
So, so one thing I did that very, a little, very little bit. I taught middle school drama and the whole time I was just like, I, I don't know how to teach these sixth graders acting like, I, I kinda just treated it like, okay. So we're just, I'm just going to teach them how to learn their lines and just do this recital. So like you, you've clearly learned at a young age about acting that probably influenced your ability to teach younger people how to do it, but like, what are some of your ins with the very young person? Cause we talk so much about how acting requires a real knowledge of yourself. And I just don't know how you do that with kids.

Speaker 6: (31:15)
Well, I mean, a lot of it has to do with, I mean, uh, permission to fail and giving themselves a safe space where they feel like they're can express themselves. I tell all my kids from like, you know, when they're in middle school, even high schoolers, that it's a safe space and it's a place free of judgment. And I start all of my classes where basically it's kind of like a kind of a cheesy thing where basically I imagine that we're unzipping a curtain, we opened the curtain, we stepped through and closed the curtain behind us. And basically what happens in this room is a safe space and a place of not, uh, I'm not judging. Um, and so, I mean, I don't think like I have some like magic potion that like, you know, I had to work with the kids, but I will say that one of the things that, um, uh, that, you know, more than anything, I think when you're talking about high school or high schoolers and middle schoolers, it's developing a level of trust where they feel like you're not judging them. And they feel like it's, it's, it's really a safe space, more than anything. So there's a lot of improvisational games and stuff like that. A lot of, um, some scene work, but more than anything it's about like being comfortable in your own skin, um, and learning kind of what makes you tick? I mean, I think that's kind of like, you know, my guiding principle, um, of, of, of trying to find something for kids that, where they feel like this is a place where they can express themselves without fear of jail.

Speaker 7: (32:27)
Wow. Well, I, so I have a question, so that sounds awesome to me. And I want to, I want you to come over and let's do that as, as a performer and a writer. I really, I'm going to send you a plane ticket, but the other thing I want to know is so taking that, and then when we went to theater school was like the opposite of that. I mean, I won't think of what your experience was like, but for me it was like, I didn't feel a no judgment zone. I felt a high judgment zone. So what happens between, so in a conservatory setting, like where does that go? Why does that go out the window? Or like, does anyone have any idea because what you're talking about sounds awesome. And what I experienced was awesome in different ways, but definitely was a judgment zone. So like what happens in the conservatory do you think?

Speaker 6: (33:17)
I think, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the way that they market themselves as being a professional program. So they're basically, there's a sense of like when you walk in, there's a sense of, I'm so privileged to be here. Like, you know, that there's a sense of like I'm honored. I had to audition, it was really intense competition. So I think we immediately walk in with a sense of trying to prove ourselves, trying to actually make our Mark. And I think, you know, at least for me, when I, when I went into a conservatory, it was, it was like really hammered in my head that it's all about connections and who, you know, so it was really about almost ingratiating myself with all of the teachers that I had in at school. And, um, I think more than anything, I mean, yes, I will say that the structure of the conservatories and the kind of like the, the hierarchy of the, you know, the city in your ivory tower definitely exists in, in colleges.

Speaker 6: (34:04)
But I think a lot of us with the mindset of people going in, of wanting to be professional and wanting to make, at least make your Mark, you know, I want to like make a difference. And especially in schools, I don't know about DePaul, but schools that cut that basically where there's like, you know, kind of like, okay, you know, who's gonna make it this year. So I think that immediately sets up this level of competition that doesn't exist in the middle school or high school situation because, you know, kids are just doing it for fun. You know, I would say that on, on the whole, um, I would say in my 12 years of teaching, I probably have only had seven or eight kids gone on to BFA programs. Um, and a lot of them just for other various reasons, their parents, like, there's no way my hugs, my kids going to go to theater school from, you know, that, you know, they have other interests. Uh, but so I think that kind of takes the pressure off of, from kids to like, you know, uh, wanting to, uh, impress and, and make, make your Mark. I think it'd be different if it was like a performing arts high school or something a little bit different in my situation, I think

Speaker 4: (35:07)
Definitely. So we talk a lot about, uh, the phenomenon of cults of personality that happens in conservatories and, you know, it's partly partially just the kind of person who's drawn to acting and, you know, they're, they, they tend to be people with big, interesting personalities. Did that same cult of personality exists at this training program when you were very young.

Speaker 6: (35:31)
Um, you mean at the, in, in the young actor space or in the, or in the hospice? Yes, absolutely. I mean, the, there already were some celebrity kids, so I think basically it was a sense of, uh, they were already with their PR agents and their publicity being able to try to actually promote their personality and their quirks and all their kind of like interesting things that make them them. Yeah, that was, that was a huge part. Yeah.

Speaker 4: (35:57)
But what about the teachers I'm w w was there a sort of this thing of like, cause what we had a lot at our school was, well, if you are in this acting teacher section, you're this kind of person, and if you're this, you know, you know, like th the people who had Rick were always better at improv and the people who had David were considered, you know, more serious about acting acting, did they try it? Was that sort of, uh, they had it

Speaker 6: (36:23)
At the enactor space, a kind of like a beginning and intermediate group. And then when you got really, when you either one of two things, whether you spend enough money with this school, or when you, um, or when you were good enough, they invited you to be part of their advanced masters. Um, so the advanced masterclass, it took me up, I was there for like a year and then they invited me to be part of it. And I felt like all honored and stuff like that. Um, but yeah, there was a big, huge personality, and it was one of those. It w it, it felt, it feels so weird talking about it was one of those acting studios. And, you know, I had a great time there, but as soon as the professor or the teacher walked in the room, everyone would stand up and applaud. The teacher would come into the room and then we would all sit down and then the person and the teacher would always, they would take their bow saying, thank you so much. I'm kind of like, you know, I'm honored to be here. And I think they would like put their hands in prayer position and bow their head. Thank you so much. And then the class would begin.

Speaker 4: (37:23)
You got enough to write this movie about nine year olds coming into were all the teachers, men?

Speaker 6: (37:30)
Uh, no, no. They, they were not, there were, there were, uh, one, there were two men in the restaurant, the restaurant women,

Speaker 4: (37:37)
You then were always on the path starting at nine. You probably started when you started thinking about college, you knew this is what you were going to do from very early age and is USC very film and TV focused, or where you really learning theater, we were learning.

Speaker 6: (37:53)
But I mean, the it's interesting because each school within the university is in charge of raising their own funds and the film and TV program, which has the Spielberg and the Lucas wing was like in these really shiny buildings. And the theater school was in the old tennis, uh, Tennessee locker room.

Speaker 7: (38:10)
I mean, that's like a perfect metaphor for, for everything first for everything. Right?

Speaker 6: (38:17)
Yeah. So, um, I mean, I think they've had, they, they they've done a good job for themselves in terms of raising funds now, but it was, it, it felt very much like we were, the bastard stepchild on, on, on campus is what it felt like a lot of the time, but it was, it was, it was theater based, it was theater base. I mean, the, one of the cool things about being there is because it had such a really film program is I made a lot of great connections with like, you know, film directors and writers and stuff like that. And like I would say when I graduated my first few, like real gigs, like professional gigs were with people that I met at SC that were then working in the, in, in the industry.

Speaker 4: (38:52)
Did you look at other conservatories or were you like I'm going to USC so that I can have the connections of that place to launch?

Speaker 6: (39:00)
My, my dad was, uh, very, very clear that if he was going to pay for a private school, it would have to be local. Uh, I actually, I was, I was in, I got, I got, I wanted to go to Carnegie Mellon and I got into Carnegie and I, and I was desperately pleaded with my dad, but he said, no. So, uh, it was one of my top choices, but it wasn't like the, the top top choice. Um, uh, yeah.

Speaker 4: (39:26)
And how did your experience of, uh, USC match up with what you thought it was going to be? Um, you know what I think,

Speaker 6: (39:35)
Well, when I got there, I was just so excited that I was having, when I would have an opportunity to just act nonstop like that. Like, you know, Oh, I didn't have to take a Spanish class. I didn't have to take all these classes. I could actually just focus on theater. That, that was, that was kind of like a huge buzz. That was just like, for the first few years, that was really, really exciting. I would say that, um, the th the biggest let down in, in school was the movement program. It really didn't have a movement program. And I started school when they had a brand new Dean, so there was a lot of like turnover and it felt very, it felt very, very disorganized and discombobulated. And one of the things that kind of, I guess, kind of rubbed me wrong was they believe that the first year is they do in all these conservatives is about breaking you down, really like, you know, just making you like, you know, just so crushingly feel about yourself, that like, you know, question and then they do that, so they can then build you up.

Speaker 6: (40:29)
So that was, that was a hard thing. I mean, that was a hard thing. Luckily, I had a teacher that actually liked me quite a bit. So I w whether kids were whipping boys or whipping girls, I was like, I was actually lauded as like, you know, do what Jason's doing. So that was, that was kind of cool, but it, but it felt to be, see other people on the other side of that, because it felt, it felt kind of wrong. So I was not expecting that because in my high school situation, I had a really beloved high school teacher when I was in high school, who was just all about like praise and love and hugging you tight and really lifting you up and lauding you. And it felt very, very, it was so different than what I was expecting in that regard. Did

Speaker 4: (41:05)
You guys have a cut system?

Speaker 6: (41:07)
There was not, there was not a cut system, but I will say that because it was, we started with 32, but, uh, by the time we got to my senior year, we were at 12 because the kids couldn't hack it. W w because they were so broken down or they were told by the teachers, this really isn't the path. And then they decided to kind of, to step back. I think probably the best experience had at, at when I was at school was honestly, we had something very, very active, independent student production program, where basically the kids would have to, you have to raise your own money, but the school would give you a theater and we would do plays. And it wasn't part of like the school season or anything, but we could raid their prop closet and we could raid the, the costume shop. And I would say my most meaningful, impactful experiences were those shows, um, shows where we had like a lot of autonomy. And I actually, we started a small theater company when I was, when I was there. And I don't know that to me, that was the, probably the biggest learning experience that I had about really learning that in order to make it in the business, you have to kind of make your own way.

Speaker 7: (42:14)
That's a great lesson. I mean, I wish we would. That's fantastic. Did you, what were your, some of your favorite roles while you were, do you remember in college?

Speaker 6: (42:22)
I do. So I'm probably the most meaningful one. We, um, Eric Bogosian, uh, wrote a play called suburbia, um, and it had just premiered at Lincoln center. And, uh, we got the rights after it, premier Lincoln center, and we performed it and it was a role called buff who was kinda like fun, fun part. And then we got word that Eric was going to be in town, on a book, on a book signing tour, and he came and saw the show. And after seeing our show, he pulled the rights from the Mark taper forum West coast premiere, and gave us money and raised money for us, our independent school production to be the West coast premiere to school and edit at a theater in Hollywood. So, um,

Speaker 7: (43:04)
It

Speaker 6: (43:04)
Was a really, it was a really cool, really cool experience. And it was, I think probably because, you know, like most schools you're playing, you know, you're, you're doing the classics and stuff like that. So you're playing, you know, you're having 18 year olds playing 45 year olds or 72 year olds, which is like, you know, always hard suburbia is about kids playing their own age. So I think that more than anything, that's what I latched onto is someone that I got it. I understood it. So that was, that was kind of fun. That was a fun role. Um, I think, uh, I did a production of American Buffalo, which was a lot of fun. Um, I did, uh, I would say a cherry orchard, so it was a really fun, fun role with the cherry orchard. I was a little pocket

Speaker 7: (43:46)
Eric would go through and keep workshopping that play, or was it, yeah,

Speaker 6: (43:50)
He did. He, he did, he actually did rewrites with us. He came out and he, and he did rewrites. And so it was kind of cool to have him write, write for you, which was kind of, it was kind of a cool, cool feeling. And then, um, the, the, the theater group, we called ourselves the [inaudible] theater company, uh, kind of a pretentious name, but the Namaz state theater company. And we, we did this West coast premiere of suburbia and Eric in order to raise money, he actually did, came out and did his one man show pounding nails in the floor with my forehead, for our theater, for a theater company and Ray and all the money that went, that he made for the production he gave to our theater.

Speaker 7: (44:26)
You know, I love hearing stories like that. That is fantastic. Uh,

Speaker 4: (44:32)
I saw you on Facebook, you're watching succession. He's really good in succession.

Speaker 6: (44:37)
That show's amazing. Yeah. He's very good. Did you keep in touch with him after I do? Yeah, we still, we still email each other back and forth. Yep.

Speaker 4: (44:44)
Fantastic. Cool. What happened between, um, the BFA and the MFA? So between the BFA and M

Speaker 6: (44:52)
FAI, I was auditioning a lot. I mean, I, I, I graduated, um, and we had our showcase, which is a disaster.

Speaker 4: (45:02)
Tell me more, I love hearing the showcase. It was the teacher that had this brilliant

Speaker 6: (45:07)
Idea that what the casting directors would want to see would be scenes from Hitchcock movies.

Speaker 4: (45:16)
So we were doing these melodramatic

Speaker 6: (45:19)
Attic Hitchcock scenes for agents and, and for, for, for obvious reasons, the agents were like, thank you. But no, no. You know, so, so, but,

Speaker 4: (45:32)
So I didn't, I didn't book an agent from that, but from suburbia

Speaker 6: (45:34)
The year before, which was my junior year, um, I had some, um, agents in representation come out. So I was actually signed my senior year of college and I was able, I had an agent after that and that was auditioning a lot and stuff like that. Um, doing, doing the whole film TV thing, um, you know, doing guest spots, my, probably my biggest claim to fame is I was on, um, the show called Roswell, which was on the WB network. I did like 22 guest spots on that. It was a recurring guest star on that. Um, so I was just doing that for a long time, just film and TV and trying to do theater here and there when I could, um, as much as I could, I tried to, like at that point, try to do at least one play a year, um, and try to just stay active as much as I can.

Speaker 6: (46:18)
I got burned out really quickly of doing that. And then in 2000, and I think six, I was like, this, I'm tired of, you know, whoring myself out for really, really boring parts and parts that don't interest me. And then, you know, holding, you know, reaching for that nugget of like a roll. And I decided, you know what, I'm stepping back from theater school and I'm going to, you know, what I really like crime, uh, uh, film and, and lawyer shows like law and order. So I'm gonna become a lawyer is what I'm gonna do. Um, and I, uh, I took, I took, I took the LSAT and I enrolled at a school in Florida to get my, a lot of it to get my JD. And the reason why I went to Florida, my wife, my wife's parents live in Florida. And I, and I know how all encompassing would be.

Speaker 6: (47:07)
And I wanted to have like a support system there. And while I was there, it became very obvious that like the theater bug was not like escape for me because I was like, you know, auditioning for stuff in Orlando and stuff like that. Like, while I was trying to study for, uh, for, for my, for my logs AMS, I was still doing theater. And, um, I did great. I made the, the honor council in law school and stuff like that, but probably biggest kicker. And the reason why I stepped back as while it was a part-time program, and I was working in a law office while I was there and to see the collusion that was happening between doctors and lawyers, like the massaging that was happening between those two things made me feel so gross that I'm like, there's no way I want to be part of this. So, um, I was in Florida and I said to myself, I got to go back into theater. And I applied to the only MFA program that was within 20 miles of my house. And that was the Oslow acting conservatory. And that's the only reason why I ended up there. It's a great school. The only reason why it's the only reason I ended up there was because it was close to my house that I was already at, in Florida getting my law degree from,

Speaker 4: (48:09)
I thought you were going to say, I thought you were gonna say what it would've been for me, which is I realized when I got into law school that I wanted to play a lawyer.

Speaker 6: (48:20)
That's a big part. Yes. Yeah. It's like, I want to play one on TV, but I don't want to be one, basically. It's the idea. Yeah.

Speaker 4: (48:24)
It's so boring. There's so much reading it's so it's so much reading and it's, it just it's Oh yeah.

Speaker 6: (48:32)
It's exhausting. It's mind numbing and really, really exhausting. Uh, you know, so I couldn't, I couldn't do it.

Speaker 4: (48:37)
It's meaningful that you grew up near Hollywood and you went to USC and, and you, and you just keep coming back to theater. Is it mostly because of what you're saying about the quality of the roles? I mean, you know, because there's very low stakes, money-wise in theater, you get to get to choose what you want to do more than you can in film and TV,

Speaker 6: (48:59)
The satisfaction of going from beginning to end to something, the feeling of taking an art, something on an arc. I mean, as you know, you guys are both writers and you work in TV and stuff. So, uh, you know, that like, you know, it shoots out of order usually. So the satisfaction of doing that, isn't nearly as satisfying. I think for me as doing a fee is a theater piece. And there's something about being in a lot with a live audience, doing something, having a communal experience, I think is very exciting. I mean, that's, I mean, I love film. I love movies and I enjoy acting and film and TV and stuff like that. But if I would be honest with myself, just in terms of what I derive the most satisfaction is always been staged. Always.

Speaker 7: (49:38)
I do feel that, um, in how does your master's program differ in terms of, you said you talked a little bit about how you felt like you were less trying to sort of please the people around you. Do you feel like you really started getting acting training when you were in your master's program? Or did you,

Speaker 4: (49:59)
Yeah,

Speaker 6: (49:59)
I would say that I would say, well, two things. One is, I was probably the oldest student in my MFA program, so I don't think everyone had the same mindset that I did. There were a lot of kids that were like 22, 23, and they still had that kind of, I really got to please kind of vibe that was going on, but I, yeah, I do. I do think, I think, um, I think here's the thing about acting, acting training. I think, I think that acting training is about giving voice and giving, uh, awareness to something that probably people already subconsciously do good actors, subconsciously know how to break down a text. They know how to do it. They don't, they don't, they maybe they don't know exactly how to actually articulate the methodology of how they got there. But what I think this, this MFA program was really helpful in is really developing a systematic approach to something that when I feel like there isn't a natural way in for me, I mean, I, you know, I feel like, you know, I, there are certain plays where I read them.

Speaker 6: (50:57)
Like, you know, I know I could play that. Like, I, I just, I just, I know it, but I think where the master's program was helpful for me is it would, it would take, maybe it would allow me to read a role and take a role that I maybe feel a little bit alienated from that. I don't feel connecting a connection to and find a way in with that. And, uh, are, are, I would say that, you know, when I was, um, when I was probably a younger actor, I always worked very, um, uh, uh, inside out trying to figure out the psychology of a character and then like, let it manifest itself in kind of like a, a physical form where the MFA program was helpful is the, uh, the freshmen of the freshmen, there was three years. The first year teacher was really big into Michael checkoff.

Speaker 6: (51:40)
It was a Michael check of technique, which is really about, you know, outside in and using your imagination. It really isn't about like, you know, emotional memory or, you know, tapping into that time. Your dog died to re you know, have some kind of emotional release is about using your imagination and actually creating some kind of physical embodiment of something to feed your inner life. And I think that's, that's been really, really helpful to me and to recognize, I think that, you know, as an artist and as an actor, the way we work and approach roles is always going to change what works from what worked for me when I was 18, 19 years old is not gonna work for me now that I'm, you know, 45, you know, it's, uh, you have to constantly reinvent yourself, figure out exactly what are the triggers, the things that basically motivate you and find a way into the material. And I think more than anything, the master's program was, uh, really good at, um, giving me kind of a eclectic buffet of different techniques and ways in, I think

Speaker 4: (52:38)
That's so cool. Well, so you know that I was a therapist and actually boss was two PAs. Uh, and I did a similar thing between, between undergrad and now, which is that we became therapist. So we're very curious, always about the psychology of why people go into acting, but also how people incorporate their lack of understanding or their, or their understanding of their own psychology into their acting process. And when you just described this thing about Michael Chekhov, which I wasn't familiar with, and you're talking about the outside in approach, that seems to be me to be not very psychologically minded. Does that mean that you Fe you prefer to take this, you prefer not to pull from within your own like psychological experiences?

Speaker 6: (53:26)
No. No. What I'm, what I'm saying is that, um, I was so psychological base that I, I, I sometimes didn't recognize that there was this whole other way of working in terms of like, you know, that there is your body and the way you actually, your, the way you carry yourself and the way you, like, how you say on direct, if you, you know, how people concave and sometimes look, it's it's, I think they both get the same. They go the same way, basically, you know, there's studies that show that if you smile, you know, all day, you're going to feel happy. Right, right, right. So it's about putting on some kind of physical manifestation that then triggers some kind of psychological and emotional release in yourself. So I, I do always approach a role, you know, asking myself what, what are the more things that motivate this character?

Speaker 6: (54:12)
What are my objectives? What are my intentions? What are the obstacles, the standard like ABCs of, you know, of theater, all I'm saying is that, um, I think I found a more healthy way to do it for myself. So I'm not, um, I'm not, when, when I'm, when I'm not beating myself up or racking myself into getting myself in such a head trip on, on these roles. Right. I feel like it's, I create unhealthy boundaries for myself and my wife, my wife tells me, I take my roles home with me usually. And I try not, I'm really trying consciously not to do that, to, to, to take that I can leave it at the door. I think more working from the outside in.

Speaker 7: (54:50)
I also think that there's there's um, and it goes back to theater school about breaking you down and making you a, a clean slate for building stuff. I think what, what you're saying is really important in that, um, it's not either, or like, I, I, I think I never, I think it was a terrible actor because I didn't incorporate both those things into my repertoire. I just didn't even, it was like a mishmash, but the way you're saying is very clear is that there are different ways of working and maybe some work better for different roles, but that, um, it doesn't have to be either, or like I have to strip myself and become a mess. Like we talk a lot about that on the show of like, when you're 18, 17, 18, 19, you think I have to be a mess to be an actor. I have to be a mess to be a good actor. It's just not true. And I think as we get older, like I'm seeing, you know, like your wife was saying, you bring roles home with you. It's just a tendency that we have, but it doesn't mean you have to be a mess. Like you can also balance your checkbook and be a good actor. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 6: (55:55)
I, I totally know what you're saying. And, but, but to your point that, you know, it, every role is different and every human being is different and where you are in your life is going to be different. Like, you know, I'm not, I'm not one to berate Daniel Day Lewis in his very, you know, intense way of working where you have to build a log cabin in the woods to play, you know, John Proctor in the crucible. I'm not, I'm not breeding that it worked for him. He can't does beautiful, beautiful work. But I think, I think there, I guess what I'm saying is there are different ways in, and really at the end of the day, when you're teaching acting, that's all, you're teaching, finding a way in,

Speaker 4: (56:26)
Into the material.

Speaker 6: (56:27)
I mean, eventually if you're good enough and you're talented, your subconscious is going to take care of the rest really more than anything, it's about what is the thing that's going to unlock it

Speaker 4: (56:35)
For you. And I'm going to try not to be rate Daniel Day-Lewis either, but it's probably hard to be married to him. [inaudible] father, my father, I have the pleasure of getting to see you perform. Uh, recently, you know, a few years ago we did a play and, um, so boss doesn't know anything about it, but he played a ma is a great play it's called where all good Rapids go. And it's a, it's a play about a world in which when you age and you grow old and, and, and your body gives out, you turn into a rabbit and, and, and the gray beyond is, you know, this place where it's, where it's a lot of rabbits. So he had to transform into a rabbit. Yeah. Like full on buddy ears, like the whole thing. And, and, uh, I, so I got to see the, the results of it, which, I mean, you were amazing in that play truly. And I don't, I really don't say that to people. You were really doesn't. Uh, what was your process talking about outside, in, inside out? What was your process for that play? Uh,

Speaker 6: (57:52)
Probably a little bit of both. I mean, like, I, I think probably, you know, I had to, at the very beginning understand what it felt like to feel like your body is giving out and losing yourself. And I feel like as a 45 year old man who is getting heavier and, and, and, you know, my body is changing. I had to tap into that. What, what, what, what, what are the things I'm having to reconcile in myself that I'm not, I'm not 18 anymore? And my body's not doing what it wants, did what I, or at least what it, why would I want it to do? So I felt like that was a way in for me to kind of like understand that the psychology of that, as far as the rabbit bit, I, you know, I found that was very, very helpful in terms of creating my inner tempo and the inner rhythms of creating the hop and all those things really kind of fed the internal tempo of the piece.

Speaker 6: (58:40)
Um, and then, you know, it just, it, you know, more than anything, you know, I think acting is just about, you know, listening and responding to your, your scene partners. So I, I think, you know, the luckily, you know, we had a really junior, you were great in the room and we had some really, really great actors to, to play off of. And the, one of the great things about the actress that I was playing off, a lot of my scenes, she was a really, really intuitive actress who, uh, never gave the same performance twice. So it kind of forced you to always be on your toes to never get locked into the line, reading that work last night, you know, to like always allow it to be fresh, um, and stuff like that. Um, so I can't point to any one thing to say, this was my methodology, but will say that, like, it was a mixture of definitely psychology and finding a way, how does a rabbit move, you know?

Speaker 4: (59:28)
Cool. So we talked to somebody last week who was on that movie, in that movie, manque with David Fincher. And she told us that he did hundreds of takes. And we, I don't know, boss, I don't know actually how you felt about that. I felt like what the, like a hundreds of takes that actually, can I ask you, Jen? What, what was your thought about when she says,

Speaker 7: (59:53)
Cause I'm such a scaredy pants. I was like, Oh, that would be good. Because like, I feel like I don't start relaxing until the fifth take on set, but after a while it becomes, to me, it would feel like, um, what are we doing here? What is the really like, what are we trying to, what, tell me what we're doing, because I know after the hundredth take, I may not know what I'm saying anymore. Like it becomes maybe some people work really great like that, but I think it's a little excessive, but you know, I guess when you're famous and fancy, you could do whatever the hell you want. Apparently. Yeah,

Speaker 6: (01:00:33)
I, yeah. Oops. I, I definitely, uh, what I think is, I mean, I don't know what you were asking me, but my, my, my take on it is it feels a bit like psychological warfare. I mean, I will say that in terms of like probably what he wanted to do, who knows what the performance he was getting. So it's kind of hard to talk about it, like in that kind of vacuum, but it's, I imagine that he wanted to get to the point where he wanted the actors to feel discombobulate.

Speaker 7: (01:00:57)
Oh. So it was like, maybe it was a, it was like a technique or a trick of some kind

Speaker 6: (01:01:02)
Probably, but it's a up technique. I mean, it really is. I mean,

Speaker 4: (01:01:07)
I dunno. I just,

Speaker 6: (01:01:07)
I, I just think it's, it's so abusive and there's other ways there are other ways to kind of skin that cat. I think I really, I mean,

Speaker 4: (01:01:15)
And I think it comes across to me as that whole thing we were talking about of breaking you down, which by the way is what they do in cults. That is the way that they get people to buy into what you're doing in a cult. Is they right? But that doesn't, but like you say, there's more than one way to do it.

Speaker 7: (01:01:34)
What about your, your, you do your career now? Um, obviously you're a teacher, but you still, it sounds like you still act, do you act, um, for, do you audition for film and TV or are you solely a theater? Oh,

Speaker 6: (01:01:47)
I'm solely a theater guy just with the teaching load that I have it doesn't, it's impossible for me to actually, you know, audition and stuff like that. I mean, I just, I've recently moved down to Florida to be teaching down here. And my intention is once we're in post COVID to get an agent in the, in, in Orlando and probably start submitting stuff. One of the cool things that I think COVID has taught a lot of casting directors is that they don't need so many face-to-face audition. So it will give that it does give me the luxury. Now, if I want to, to get representation and submit my stuff that way I'm, I'm considering it. I'm considering it, but it's not something that's on my burning right now.

Speaker 7: (01:02:23)
Okay. And how did you make the transition for, from like the hustle of being a theater actor in a film, a TV actor into I'm going to start teaching? Was it practical? Was it, what, how did how'd you get there?

Speaker 6: (01:02:35)
Well, I was, uh, when I was in Los Angeles pursuing career as an actor, the screen actors Guild had a program called book pals, which is an acronym for performing artists for literacy in schools. And basically, uh, actors and artists would go into low, very depressed socioeconomic areas in Los Angeles and read stories and do a drama lesson to kids. And, uh, I felt a, I did it and I was hooked and I just really, really loved connecting with the kids that way. And it felt really, really kind of magical and very, very special. And so I knew when I was, uh, I knew that when I was applying to ma uh, um, uh, to my MFA program, that the goal was always, always, always on the flip side of this, these three years to teach, I would make that might, you know, now that I think about it, that probably played a huge part of why I didn't give a so much with the teachers thought about me, that it wasn't about trying to like, you know, have a career afterwards. It was always about getting my MFA so I could actually teach, I don't, I'm not teaching. I teach a private school, so I'm not credentialed. So the kind of like the terminal degree that I need to actually teach in an independent school is, is the MFA. So that's why, uh, that's why I pursued it.

Speaker 7: (01:03:48)
Interesting. That makes sense. It's like you had a, you had a purpose. See, that's the thing when we're like 17, my purpose was to please people that's it and not, and not be made fun of in some way or not be paved. Okay. But if you have a greater purpose, right? If your purpose is to be of service to kids and young adults using this degree, then who gives a, what Mr. Joe blow thinks of your, your, you know, Shakespeare technique or whatever, you're there to gather tools to be of service and to be the best teacher you can. I think that that's like such a freedom, such a blessing that you went to school with that

Speaker 6: (01:04:26)
And your knee, but that, that, that what you just said, the freedom, I think more than anything, like freedom, my work honestly felt like I was doing like, you know, on my arm. I think I was doing some pretty decent work in my graduate program, probably because I felt that freedom to not really care about what people thought about me there wasn't, I didn't feel like every performance was a make or break thing. You know, that it was, I was doing it because like, I like liked it. Like, it was fun. Like I experienced in my MFA program, what I had probably in my program, um, when I was at young actor space, that kind of just pure sheer passion. And I love it and I just love it. Yeah.

Speaker 7: (01:05:00)
And it makes your work better. It makes the work better. So I guess my question then to both of you is, is there a way to have, there are people, there are people we've talked to that go into their BFA and have that resilience and that's that sense of freedom, um, that, that, but most of us didn't in the BFA program. So it's like, how do we do that for kids? How do we say to a 17 year old, there is no judgment here, but also, and then allow them to do the best work because it doesn't seem to work that way in a conservatory. I don't know.

Speaker 6: (01:05:30)
No, no, you're right. I think probably what would be helpful is to, at the very, very beginning, like, I don't know, for me, at least I feel like maybe this wouldn't solve what you're talking about, but I feel what was severely lacking was an understanding of the way the actual entertainment and the, and the world really worked on the flip side of graduating. And I think if I would have had some like, kind of like education on like just, you know, life's knocks like the heart hard knocks, I felt like, I don't know. I think that would have like freed me up a little bit. I noticed that like, the kids that like thrived in my BFA program were trust fund kids, kids that basically didn't have to worry about. Like, you know, like, you know, I have to, I have to work and what, what, you know, all these things, kids that basically had the freedom to basically it was a trust fund to basically when they graduated, they know that the funds would be there for them. And I think,

Speaker 4: (01:06:18)
And another way yet another way that income inequality, ruins, this is society in general. Well, so what's occurring to me is something I think I probably talked about before, but this, for one thing, I think some part of theater training or acting training is hazing that teacher who is doing it, it was done to them and they feel like this is part of what. And I think that the way that people justify it to themselves as well, this is how they're going to have. This is how it's going to be when they're trying to get a job in the real world is that people are going to, I mean, I don't know this personally, but I've heard stories that, you know, you're in the room for a television or film roll, and people are just talking about you. Like, you're not there. She's too, this she's too, that she's not enough that she's none of that.

Speaker 4: (01:07:06)
Okay. So I get it, like, you're, you're trying to ignore the actor to that, but for one thing that you really can't, and you are somebody to like being humiliated and for another thing, in order to be able to access all of this good stuff that we want actors to be able to access, they have to feel safe and secure. So it's just backwards. And maybe they don't do it at, at these training programs anymore. I hope they don't, but that's how it was done for us. And it had the effected me of making me feel like I couldn't do anything, not that I was in nor to people rejecting me, but that like, I couldn't do it the right way, which was unhealthy.

Speaker 6: (01:07:45)
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it's. It is sad. I mean, I feel like, you know, that, and here's the thing about like, you know, kids when they come in, you know, to a, a BFA program, like, look, everyone has that magical epiphany at different times. And, you know, I think it's unfair to a 17 or 18 year old kid who might not actually have a full grasp on their instrument or the way, or, or, or, or, or how to play a beat or all these things to basically cast them off and like use them as a, as a whipping boy or whipping child as an example of like what not to do, just because I feel like we all have those Epiphanes later in life. And I will say that like that there, there are kids in my program that, you know, when they first came in, they maybe, you know, quote unquote work didn't seem all that quote unquote good.

Speaker 6: (01:08:33)
But they had a magical epiphany their, their, their, their junior year that caused them to basically a light bulb to go off. And I do agree with you that I feel like so much of it is, um, unfair, and I don't know how to solve it. I wonder if it's different now with social media. I do wonder if, if the teacher being fee, uh, fearful of like, you know, any of their being videotaped, like might change the way they actually carry themselves in a room. That might be the one thing. And I, and in the area of me too, I, I wonder if that changed too. I mean, my, my wife has just had, had, had a miserable experience, um, in, in her BF, in our BFA, but that's where I met my wife, Elena. And, you know, she was actually abused by a teacher, like actually, you know, during, you know, movement exercises, you know, hands, you know, rubbing against her chest, all of those things in the name of like, you know, loosening your body, you know?

Speaker 6: (01:09:22)
And I just, I, I feel like, you know, kids there, their mind is still growing 18. They're they're kids. They're they're, they are children. They're 18 year old kids. I mean, yes, they're adults, but they're kids really. And I think it's, it's, it's really, really unfair to, um, to expect kids, to have the guts, to step back and say, you know what, this isn't right. You know, that's just, I mean, I think that's, that's, that's a lot for an 18 to ask for an 18 and 19 year old. I would hope Gina, I would hope then in social media times and that, you know, kids getting more and more, um, um, advocated, you know, advocating for themselves that basically they recognize the boundaries. So there may be willing to step up. But I don't know. I mean, I I've heard stories, you know, from, I had, I had a student that, you know, graduated from, um, when I, uh, a school I taught in Los Angeles seven years ago and he went to Julliard and this was only five years ago. And he, he described like just a, really, just a, an abusive, deep down you suck, you know, what are you thinking about, you know, uh, a women that would have

Speaker 7: (01:10:25)
Yeah, they did that at Carnegie Mellon as well. Yeah.

Speaker 6: (01:10:28)
That still goes on. It's it does still go on. And I think, you know, the thing about it is it's so unfortunate is that I feel like, you know, teachers are like, have a convenient way of kind of explaining it away, you know? Well, you know, they, we, we need someone to have a malleable body. So when they, when they grew up, when they, when they graduate, they're, they're able to play a lot of different roles and stuff like that. There's a way to kind of describe it away, but it's, it's so it's so abusive. And so it, it just, I mean, my wife, Elena, I mean, she probably, when she graduated, probably was paralyzed to go on audition for five or six, she didn't go in addition for five or six years now,

Speaker 7: (01:11:02)
PTSD. I mean, she, she, so I think I hope it's changing and I think it is slowly changing, but I am just, um, yeah, I, some P and some people, some people thrive in that environment. Some people, uh, compensate in different ways. I mean, everyone gets through. And I think part of the reason we started this podcast was to say like, what was that? You know, and how did we get through it? And the other thing that makes me really happy is to know that people like you are teaching that don't do that. So I'm really grateful that you're teaching, because

Speaker 4: (01:11:38)
I think you're right too about the whole social media thing, because recently I discovered a Instagram account. That's somebody who's in theater school at DePaul right now. And it's just these eviscerations of teachers and stuff like that. I don't know if the teachers know about it, maybe they do, maybe they don't. But yes, I think what you're describing about what the internet has brought out is a lot more accountability for people who can't rely on, you know, being in the shadows. And one thing that we're experiencing as we talk to people that we went to school with is just all of these different perspectives about what was happening at that time, allowing us to put the picture together more clearly. And I'm not saying that necessarily anybody who's going to school right now is automatically having a clear picture because of social media, but it probably helps to have a variety of ways. I mean, the only ways that we had to check in with each other about what was happening, if we even acknowledged to ourselves what was happening was with our, you know, with our friend groups in, in, in intimate moments. And even then it didn't necessarily always come out, especially if a person felt ashamed that something that was happening to them was their fault.

Speaker 7: (01:12:47)
Right. Or how do you deal with your students with competitiveness? How do you do that? I guess I'm wondering,

Speaker 6: (01:12:54)
Uh, I always, and I, and I feel weird about doing this, but I it's been really helpful. I always have open auditions in the room. I never call people in individually. And the reason why I do that is that when people get a role, they see, they deserve that role like that. And that is really that's, that's, that's, that's been very, very helpful. It's also been helpful to always, in terms of like, in a way, when I audition, I usually have a panel of someone I have I'll have a parent, I will have a faculty member. That's not involved with the theater and myself, and maybe the music or from doing a musical. So they don't feel like that they have to get in good with me or impress me to get the role because that they feel like it's, it's a kind of like, it's an even playing field.

Speaker 7: (01:13:40)
Wow. How did you come about to do that?

Speaker 6: (01:13:43)
Uh, because, because, because the first few years I was teaching, it was just me and I felt, I felt the very thing that you're describing. And I felt like people were, the kids were really trying to especially come fasting time, you know, either butter me up or they would just shut it would shut them down because they were so nervous about having to audition. So I feel like, you know, more than anything beyond the panel, it's really having kids be present and see each other work. That's been a huge, huge, like relief valve. That's a fantastic,

Speaker 7: (01:14:12)
Because I would also as a, as an, uh, an auditioner, um, um, I would feel so good to learn about other people's process and say, Oh, they make mistakes too, in their audition. Oh, they tripped over their words. Oh, Oh, that to me is, Oh, I wish I had had it.

Speaker 6: (01:14:33)
Yeah. There's, there's, there's none of that. Listening your ear against the door. There's none of the, kind of like, Oh, he was in there for 30 minutes. I was only there for 15. What, you know, what does that mean? You know, there's none, there's none of that, you know, it's, it's transparent. It's like, we're all in the room together and let's read it. And then usually I think, you know, usually after the audition, people know how the cast, this is going to shake out. They usually do, you know, and they're, and they are not really surprised. Um, you know, that's not to say as a teacher, I don't get, you know, deal with like, you know, uh, emails from parents. Is it little, a little Susie deserved the role of like that, but that's been, that's been less and less, um, as, as the years have gone on. So that's been

Speaker 4: (01:15:16)
That anybody who's listening to this who, who is in a position of casting, especially with kids, I think you should definitely use this method. I L I love that so much. So of course, I'm, in my mind, I'm wanting to tick off the boxes about similarities and differences with USC. So you mentioned you did showcase and was that just in LA or did you go to New York?

Speaker 6: (01:15:37)
No, that was just in Los Angeles Hitchcock show.

Speaker 4: (01:15:42)
And what about the, um, the casting? Was it like each term you auditioned for all of the directors that were, you know, and you got put into a casting pool and the teachers hammered it out amongst themselves and put up the castle

Speaker 6: (01:15:57)
The way, the way it worked is, um, you, you couldn't be in a main stage show until you were a junior. The freshmen and sophomores had their own show, which was more like a workshop that was very, very, very low production values there. Some very, very little, and then come your junior year. You became part of the casting pool for the entire school they would have on, but while you were juniors here, you would still have your school show. You were still have your class show, but you could also audition for the main stage show. If you were cast in the main stage show, you would not be cast in your class show. Um, so that's, that's how they did it. And, um, you, uh, they, I think like, you know, usually they would have for their main stage show, they would have two, two plays in the fall. Uh, two plays in the winter, two plays in the spring, and then they would do a musical on top of that. And then on top of that, there would be the, the class show. So there'd be, it was a pretty robust, you know, product. It was a pretty robust, you know, a season for production.

Speaker 4: (01:17:00)
You have to also do crew.

Speaker 6: (01:17:02)
Yeah, my friend. Yeah. My freshman year, we had to take a, um, a, uh, a stagecraft pass and I had to, you had, you had serve on the crew of a show. So, uh, I was, yeah, I was, I think I was assistant stage managing, which was actually really kind of cool. It was a really cool, it was a mind opening experience. Cause like, you know, when I was in high school, I was just doing, you know, acting, acting, acting. So it was kind of cool to see how the flip side work and gain crazy respect for, uh, all the people that are involved backstage. Yeah,

Speaker 4: (01:17:27)
For sure. And you said you were kind of the golden voice that you got a lot of the good parts, but I'm guessing you probably had friendships with people who weren't the golden kids. And like I, because I would have been like on your friend's side of things, what was it like for you? Did you feel guilty sometimes about getting all these great roles?

Speaker 6: (01:17:48)
Yeah, I did actually, because I think there was a lot of resentment that began to breed towards my junior senior year that basically, Oh, Jason's getting, Oh, surprise, surprise, Jason got the lead again, you know, so it, it definitely had a lot, there was also, there was definitely a lot of resentment that I think was, was bred from it. But, um, uh, I felt like, um, I was pretty humble about it at the time, so I didn't really kind of let it go to my learning, let it go to my head. Uh, there were people that, you know, I feel bad that like, you know, they're, you know, USC, you're paying for an education, like, you know, it's in a $45,000 a year to go to the school and their kids that basically were like, you know, search server with a champagne server in the back.

Speaker 6: (01:18:29)
And that was all the roles they had their entire in their entire four years there. And it was just really, it was, it was really unfortunate. It was really unfortunate. I mean, I guess they're trying to do, they try to emulate like, you know, the, the competitive, you know, competitiveness of the, of the business, but you know, I feel like, you know that, you know, you, you can only, I'm a firm believer, look, I'm an, I'm a theater teacher. I love teaching theater, but I'm a firm believer that you learn through experience. Right? You learn through doing roles by taking on roles and, you know, no amount of like laboratory discussion about it or doing scene work is going to like supplant, actually working on a roll and taking it from start to finish. Right. It was not fair to those kids. It was not

Speaker 7: (01:19:06)
Needed a chance, you know, to set them up for success is to give them a chance to work. Yeah. You know, things got to change, but they sound like they're starting. I mean, you're giving me hope. Thank gosh. And I'm not saying, you know, I don't really know you, but from what I'm hearing is like, at least there's look if I had a kid, which I don't think God, but if I did sending them to your school, I would feel okay if my kid said, I want to go to school. If they said, you know, I would say, okay, I, I, like, I know this teacher, I have this, this, my kid would be all right. You know, versus, Oh my gosh, you're going to be broken down. And then you're going to get, you know, an eating disorder. That's well,

Speaker 6: (01:19:48)
I tried to really do with my, with my theater programs is, you know, I tell my kids all the time that theater can not just be about entertainment. The theater is about provoking thought, inspiring change, starting conversations. And there's a certain level of, of altruism that's involved with being, you know, a theater artist. And I feel like, I don't know. I think there's something to be said, you know, I do fun stuff. You know, like I'll do the farces and stuff like that. But usually the stuff I tend to do in, you know, at, at the high school level tends to be a little bit kind of envelope pushing in terms of like challenging the material, you know, not really worrying about language and stuff like that. And, and more than anything, it's about really doing material that basically the kids can relate to. That is actually about something. And I think in terms of like, when I think about it now, in terms of comp competitiveness, I think there's something to be said about the kids feeling like they're doing something for the greater good that they're actually a conversation starter on campus that it's not just about entertainment. I don't know. I think a lot of my kids have bought into that. And, and I think, you know, I think that's a big part of why the PR the, the, the programs have kind of thrived at this.

Speaker 1: (01:20:49)
Awesome. So we are going to have to wrap up, but do you have, before we go, do you have anything you want to plug anything you want to plug for us?

Speaker 6: (01:20:58)
Um, well, in COVID, it's kind of hard, hard, kind of hard to plug. I mean, I, I, um, well, w w we're gonna, we haven't really officially announced yet with thrown stones. I'm not going to actually like, say, say what it is yet, but there will be something down the line in September that will be very, very exciting.

Speaker 1: (01:21:16)
And you can check it [e-mail],

Speaker 6: (01:21:19)
Correct? Yes.

Speaker 1: (01:21:21)
I didn't go to our school and also is making a difference in the world. I survived theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plea cheat are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?