Kellye Mazzoli (00:33) Hello and welcome back to another Unmuted. This is part two of our Words Matter series. So in our last episode, Charisse unpacked why work-life balance is kind of a myth and why integration is a way more helpful way to think about how we live and how we work. Today though, we're gonna shift gears just a little bit and we're still staying with this idea that the words we choose shape how we see ourselves and how we treat others. And this time we're looking at mental health health language. TikTok, Instagram, and even our casual conversations at work are full of words like gaslighting, narcissist, OCD, trauma, sociopath, and bipolar. Now, I just want to say, I feel like these are really big words with serious meanings, but in pop culture, they almost become sort of throwaway lines. And when we toss them around without care, we can do some real harm. Charisse Deschenes (01:34) I think part of why these words spread so fast is because they feel really powerful. Saying you're gaslighting me, you know, lands with more, a lot more force than saying, I don't think that you're hearing me. And calling someone a narcissist sounds sharper than saying they're pretty self-centered. So, you know, the problem is these words weren't meant to be casual comebacks. They describe serious patterns and diagnosis. Kellye Mazzoli (01:40) Mm, yeah. Charisse Deschenes (02:02) And when we flatten them into shorthand insults, we take away their ability to describe what's really going on for people who need those words the most. Kellye Mazzoli (02:15) Let's start with the biggest offenders. think gaslighting, narcissists, trauma, OCD, bipolar. You hear them sort of everywhere now. I mean, you hear them in politics. You hear them around the office in office gossip. We even hear people kind of joke with their friends about it. And I even once heard somebody say that that committee meeting was so traumatic. Charisse Deschenes (02:18) Okay. Kellye Mazzoli (02:44) and they set it with the same tone that you'd use to describe like running out of coffee. Charisse Deschenes (02:52) Yeah, yes, that's so true. That happens all the time, like just looking back and the language that you use in the office is heavy sometimes. I was thinking about when people say they're OCD because they're like their pens lined up, right? Like in a row on their desk where everything is so neat. Kellye Mazzoli (03:11) ⁓ I'm, yeah, I'm gonna say, I will say, will be honest about it. I have absolutely used this to describe myself. I've definitely described myself as OCD. I'm so OCD. Mm-hmm, I've said that. Mm-hmm. Charisse Deschenes (03:23) Yeah, yeah, I've heard it a lot. And then, you you call someone bipolar. I mean, I've heard that before, too, just because that person has a bad day and they snapped. So really, though, here's the thing. We're not trying to pick on anybody, but we've all probably said the things, those things at some point. And over time, we casually use those words and the meanings kind of chip away. Kellye Mazzoli (03:42) Absolutely. Charisse Deschenes (03:49) And when everything is gaslighting, then nothing is gaslighting. And when everyone's a narcissist, the real diagnosis gets buried under this pop culture noise that we experience. Kellye Mazzoli (03:54) Very true. let's ground this in what these words actually mean. Like, let's start with gaslighting True gaslighting is a sustained intentional pattern of manipulation. And it is done in a way to make you doubt your own memory or your own perception of reality. And it's not just like, hey, I don't remember you saying that. Charisse Deschenes (04:08) Okay. Kellye Mazzoli (04:33) It is more than that. And I was looking, I was reading some different things online about this and I came across the Australian Psychological Society and they warned that overusing that word actually makes it harder for people to recognize and name the real abuse that's happening when real gaslighting is happening. Charisse Deschenes (04:36) Mm-hmm. That's the same with narcissism. Narcissistic personality disorder is a diagnosable condition. And it's not just arrogance or self-promotion. It's a long-term, it's not, it's a long-term pattern ⁓ of grandiosity and it's a lack of empathy, fragile self-esteem, and it causes real damage in relationships. So yeah, so, you know, but online. Kellye Mazzoli (05:09) It's not. It does. Charisse Deschenes (05:26) Again, we hear narcissists. It's become a word that we use for anyone who annoys us or takes too many selfies maybe. And really, you you see that all the time and studies show that misusing it increases stigma, which makes it even harder for people with NPD to get help or to be understood. Kellye Mazzoli (05:34) Yeah, for sure. The other term too I wanna talk about is trauma. according to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, so that's ⁓ SAMHSA, trauma isn't just any hard experience. So trauma is when an event actually overwhelms your ability to cope and it leaves lasting effects on your mental, physical, and emotional health. the key here is really honing in on the lasting effects. And it's worlds apart, honestly, from saying that you were traumatized by a long line at Starbucks. And I think that whenever we start calling every stressor and labeling it trauma, it actually minimizes what survivors of war or survivors of abuse or even survivors of disasters. And I'm thinking about Hurricane Katrina as we just ⁓ took a look back at Hurricane Katrina 20 years ago that happened here in New Orleans where I live. And there's real trauma that I see even from the people that I have met that have lived here their whole lives of what happened 20 years later. That's trauma and they're actually living with it. So don't minimize what what survivors of these atrocities are are dealing with by just casually throwing the term trauma out. Charisse Deschenes (07:18) And I think it's like that we've seen this in words like OCD or bipolar too, right? ⁓ OCD isn't about talking about, you know, things neat and orderly or in a row, those pens you were talking about, it's about intrusive thoughts and that drives compulsive behaviors. And often to the point where, you know, your daily life is really disrupted. And bipolar disorder isn't about being moody, it's about Kellye Mazzoli (07:24) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Charisse Deschenes (07:46) cycling between depression and mania or hypomania. So these are complex and debilitating conditions that people are experiencing and they deserve to be taken seriously. Kellye Mazzoli (07:59) have to add on to that. Like, don't get me started about just throwing out the word sociopath or psychopath. Like, really, people throw those out in meetings, in politics, in casual conversations, and they're really being used as synonyms for like mean or heartless. But those labels of sociopath and psychopath, they tie back to an antisocial personality disorder. And it's a very serious clinical condition. Charisse Deschenes (08:06) Yeah. Yeah. Kellye Mazzoli (08:29) And so not everyone who's cold or harsh or even unethical is a sociopath. And misusing that word doesn't just stigmatize people, but it also muddies the waters when we're trying to talk about actual dangerous behaviors that we need to have conversations about. Charisse Deschenes (08:47) Yeah. And why does it matter, Kellye? mean, why does this, why does this matter so much? know? ⁓ well, first there's this dilution problem. ⁓ if every bad day is a trauma, then survivors of abuse, violence, or war risk not being believed. And psychology today has written about this in a few articles and they warned that casual use of trauma diminishes the seriousness of PTSD. Kellye Mazzoli (08:49) Yeah, why does it matter? ⁓ Charisse Deschenes (09:16) and makes it harder for survivors to claim their language that they need to describe what they're experiencing. Kellye Mazzoli (09:24) Second is stigma. Labels like schizophrenic or narcissist, they carry so much baggage already. And so when we toss them out carelessly, we're actually just adding fuel to that stigma. And I wanna say like stigma isn't just about feelings. It has real world consequences. And studies are showing that it actually keeps people from seeking help. It worsens treatment outcomes and it makes recovery even harder. Charisse Deschenes (09:51) And then there's the misdiagnosis and misunderstanding around these, the labels, When people are self labeling because they picked up a term that they learned on TikTok, they may miss what's really happening. And they might not think, they might think that they're just anxious when they're actually experiencing OCD, or they might just miss their depression because they don't really think that they count or it counts. And that Kellye Mazzoli (09:57) Mm-hmm. Charisse Deschenes (10:19) Confusion slows down the process of getting the right kind of help for people when they need it. Kellye Mazzoli (10:24) And in leadership spaces, I think the stakes are even higher. So even just going back and putting this in a professional ⁓ lens, if a staff member casually accuses their manager of gaslighting, when the reality was it was really just poor communication or maybe a lack of transparency, the word will stick. And it shapes how. how others see that leader and maybe even permanently. Sometimes you can't shake those sort of labels that have been attached to you. And the reason why is because our brains are constantly seeking ways to prove the things that we think. So if somebody's like, that manager, he gaslights me, others who hear that are gonna be looking for evidence that that manager is gaslighting. So it can have a real domino effect in our organizations. And I've honestly seen reputations damaged by words that were misapplied. I mean, in the heat of the moment, just sort of a casual venting session that happens and you just throw out the term, the narcissist, the gaslighting, like those terms are just thrown out in the heat of the moment and they don't really apply, but they stick sometimes and they cause a lot more harm, like ongoing. Charisse Deschenes (11:46) real world examples of, of seeing maybe something in the same kind of realm, maybe not exactly, ⁓ you know, the word gaslighting or something like that. But, ⁓ I've, know, been in a situation where members of the community have called staff liars and went after them and they didn't like that the facts that were being presented in the moment that was really based around policy and what, you know, needed to be done in the community based on what was written in policy. And, you know, that really caused some, you know, erosion of trust with the community and the staff. Some people were feeling, some harsh feelings and staff felt demoralized in that moment. So I think You know, the word liar is probably more the term that was used there, but it didn't really apply to what was actually happening in the situation, but it did leave a lasting impression on staff and those going through the situation in the community. Kellye Mazzoli (12:55) Sure. mean, it's not a specific mental health term, but it's still a label that's casually applied to a whole group of people. And in this case, your case, it was for staff. mean, that really erodes trust and it sort of sticks. then our members of the community trying to prove that staff is lying. ⁓ Actually, world example is that in one of the communities I worked for, we had a reporter who was just certain, I believe one of our directors had given him some information that wasn't accurate and it was really just an inadvertent oversight. But then that reporter began to think, like he labeled us as liars. And so all of a sudden he didn't trust anything that was coming from any staff member and he was digging in and became more of an investigative journalist. Charisse Deschenes (13:42) Mm-hmm. Kellye Mazzoli (13:52) And of course we had nothing to hide and it was fine and it worked itself out over time, but it was very difficult having a reporter who just didn't trust us that he had thought because of one experience, ⁓ which was just an honest mistake that, there's this whole underlying conspiracy and this whole organization is, there's something to be uncovered here and it just wasn't true. But that did eat up a lot of staff time and it did erode trust between the organization and the newspaper. And like I said, eventually it did work itself out, but it was that casual sort of, know, ⁓ you know, just throwing out that term and then it just snowballed from there. So it has real, real consequences. And I can even think of a time like, so there was a director that was labeled a narcissist in the organization on the leadership team. you know, maybe it was just because they were more assertive or a little ego driven, kind of really liked the recognition. just, that's really, you know, but whenever you label somebody a narcissist like that, it really just shuts all the communication down. It shuts the creativity down and the curiosity. So instead of going like, hey, how can this person maybe communicate a little bit better instead? We're just like, well, they're a narcissist. That's who they are, whatever. And then what you find is that the growth stops before it even starts. Like that person doesn't even have an opportunity to learn to communicate better or to understand what's going on because we've just thrown this label on them, Charisse Deschenes (15:30) I was just thinking on the kind of on the personal side a little bit. You know, think I've seen people use like unhealthy, you talk about unhealthy relationships using the word like, you know, trauma bonds and they're just experiencing codependency or, you know, some kind of poor boundary that they're experiencing. Kellye Mazzoli (15:44) Mm-hmm. Charisse Deschenes (15:51) So that misuse doesn't make the relationship better. It just makes the person feel more stuck in the relationship. That's kind of what that really seemed like to me. yeah, these different kinds of trauma, we're using words like trauma, we're in poor situations and just your recognition of what was going on in your communities and the one in mine. just makes me think about, you know, there are moments in time where we could go back and talk a lot in our podcast about, staff and how staff is feeling and going through some of the different situations that being a public servant brings to brings you into a different situation when you're dealing with like community values and how you react in situations that can be very politically driven Kellye Mazzoli (16:49) I think, we've talked about the terminology and we talked about all those things, but I want to move us into I believe we can do better. Let's talk about maybe how. So let's let's talk a little bit about solutions and what we can do instead of jumping on these buzzwords. Charisse Deschenes (17:05) Sure, yeah, let's do that. Kellye Mazzoli (17:08) What do you think? What's the first thing you think people ought to do? Charisse Deschenes (17:12) Well, okay, first maybe slow down and describe instead of saying you're gaslighting me try when you dismiss my concern I felt unheard. That's really clear. It's specific. It opens a door to repair perhaps in that relationship. Kellye Mazzoli (17:27) Yeah. It always comes back to my first step, which is becoming aware. Slow down, describe. I love that. The second thing I would say is make sure you start using plain language. Call things manipulative. Call them dismissive. Call them unkind. ⁓ Maybe even controlling if that's really what they are. Those words are sharp, but they're not clinical. Right? Like you can get your ideas across. And so I think I love Charisse Deschenes (17:40) Yeah. Yeah, right. Kellye Mazzoli (17:54) building on what you're saying, like make it clear and specific because if you can be clear and specific about what is going on and what you are feeling, like actually feeling, it'll open the door to repair. then whenever you start using plain language, meaning you use the words that actually describe what's going on, again, that also opens the door to repair and to moving on. Charisse Deschenes (18:20) and leave those clinical diagnoses to the clinicians perhaps. So you don't need to diagnose someone as bipolar or a narcissist to address the behavior. Kellye Mazzoli (18:25) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Can I add my favorite one? Charisse Deschenes (18:36) I hope you will. Kellye Mazzoli (18:39) It's stay curious. All my coaching clients know I always say stay curious, stay curious, stay curious. So this is one where you wanna ask yourself like what actually happened? What impact did it have? How do I want to respond? And I think that kind of reflection will help you get clarity without reaching for a label that may or may not fit in your situation. Charisse Deschenes (19:00) Yeah, yeah, so you're saying stay curious or be curious not judgmental the the Ted Lasso reference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't we all love that show? Well, to wrap up this episode, Kellye, I just want to say at the end of each day, words aren't neutral. They can heal. They can harm and they can clarify and they can also distort. Kellye Mazzoli (19:06) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's a lot of good lessons in Ted Lasso. and I couldn't agree more. I think really, hopefully what we're conveying here is that it's really important to use your words with care, and make sure that you protect the meaning of words that matter so that when someone who who really is experiencing trauma or gaslighting or some other serious mental health condition that they have the language they need. And that that language still has power to communicate what it is that they're going through. And I'll just add to remember that when you unmute your words matter.