1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,410 Podcasting disrupts then this educational stance because that's 2 00:00:03,410 --> 00:00:05,240 what podcasting is actually. 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:09,960 Even here, we talk about, we collectively learn, we share our experiences 4 00:00:10,230 --> 00:00:14,669 without a sort of formal, larger institution, which might say, well, 5 00:00:14,669 --> 00:00:20,159 I am the institution that actually holds that patronizes, that knowledge. 6 00:00:20,490 --> 00:00:23,804 And that, of course is what I'm talking about in this abstract. 7 00:00:23,804 --> 00:00:27,210 And just the first sentences, I got a bit giddy with the first sentences 8 00:00:27,210 --> 00:00:29,039 because I was quite controversial with. 9 00:00:29,089 --> 00:00:32,839 "The lecture is dead. The ivory towers cracking, the paper argues that the 10 00:00:32,839 --> 00:00:37,579 podcast revolution is not a side trend. It is a front line of a cultural 11 00:00:37,579 --> 00:00:39,919 insurgency against academic monopolies." 12 00:00:40,099 --> 00:00:43,879 And of course I wanted to challenge us because we, there is still this 13 00:00:43,879 --> 00:00:47,839 belief that knowledge is centered to what we do in universities. 14 00:00:47,929 --> 00:00:52,099 But podcasting has actually shown that knowledge is, of course, we really 15 00:00:52,099 --> 00:00:53,779 are firmly in the knowledge economy. 16 00:00:54,109 --> 00:00:55,939 We are firmly in the knowledge society. 17 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:57,370 Everyone can podcast. 18 00:00:57,370 --> 00:01:02,140 Everyone can create that sort of learning space for themselves or for others. 19 00:01:02,170 --> 00:01:05,109 And that then means universities will need to change. 20 00:01:07,359 --> 00:01:11,379 Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters who want 21 00:01:11,379 --> 00:01:13,449 to learn, connect, and get inspired. 22 00:01:13,689 --> 00:01:19,009 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Higher ed pods.com and Podium Podcast Company. 23 00:01:19,159 --> 00:01:21,829 And I'm Jennifer Lee, founder of J Pod Creations. 24 00:01:21,829 --> 00:01:24,498 If you're podcasting in higher ed, you're not alone. 25 00:01:24,498 --> 00:01:26,898 There's a fast growing community out there, and we're 26 00:01:26,898 --> 00:01:28,668 here to help you tap into it. 27 00:01:28,788 --> 00:01:29,568 That's right, Jen. 28 00:01:29,568 --> 00:01:34,688 And along the lines of Community Higher Ed Pod Con, which is 29 00:01:34,688 --> 00:01:36,818 happening in July in Cleveland. 30 00:01:36,818 --> 00:01:38,048 We've talked about it a bunch. 31 00:01:38,048 --> 00:01:40,456 We're gonna keep talking about it.. Just a reminder that 32 00:01:40,626 --> 00:01:43,815 early bird registration is open. 33 00:01:43,845 --> 00:01:46,199 Submissions for speakers are coming in. 34 00:01:46,199 --> 00:01:46,739 It's great. 35 00:01:46,799 --> 00:01:49,719 We actually have about 40 submissions already, which is quite. 36 00:01:49,719 --> 00:01:49,809 What?! 37 00:01:49,959 --> 00:01:51,396 Yeah I know it's amazing. 38 00:01:51,415 --> 00:01:55,855 We also have openings for sponsors, so if you know of anyone who you think 39 00:01:55,855 --> 00:01:58,435 might be a good sponsor, let us know. 40 00:01:58,495 --> 00:02:04,665 We are very cognizant of costs with budgets being tighter in academia and 41 00:02:04,665 --> 00:02:08,915 universities right now, so the more we can offset the cost for the show. 42 00:02:08,922 --> 00:02:11,202 The better for participants. 43 00:02:11,292 --> 00:02:12,252 Lots of fun things. 44 00:02:12,252 --> 00:02:14,723 I keep seeing emails coming through, so I'm very excited when 45 00:02:14,723 --> 00:02:16,396 we can share things soon with you. 46 00:02:16,546 --> 00:02:20,944 And please, if you wanna be on our show with Neil and I or know someone 47 00:02:20,944 --> 00:02:24,496 we should interview, email us your ideas, our emails in the show notes. 48 00:02:25,126 --> 00:02:25,490 That's right. 49 00:02:25,490 --> 00:02:26,380 Okay, Jen. 50 00:02:27,250 --> 00:02:30,646 In this episode, we're talking to Corolla Boem professor of Creative and 51 00:02:30,646 --> 00:02:36,636 Cultural Industries, and the C3 Research Center Chair at Staffordshire University. 52 00:02:36,646 --> 00:02:41,290 Jen, I came across Carola's abstract she had submitted for the 53 00:02:41,290 --> 00:02:45,430 upcoming EPOD conference, and I just knew we had to have her on. 54 00:02:45,460 --> 00:02:48,110 We're gonna talk a little bit about EPOD. 55 00:02:48,190 --> 00:02:50,920 We've talked about it before in the past, but we're gonna dig into it a little 56 00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:52,780 bit more, which is upcoming in June. 57 00:02:52,780 --> 00:02:56,470 So it gives you time to go, if that's an opportunity, but you have to 58 00:02:56,470 --> 00:03:00,170 register for Higher Ed Pod Con first before you think about going to EPOD. 59 00:03:00,190 --> 00:03:01,170 Just, right Jen? 60 00:03:01,220 --> 00:03:01,460 Yes. 61 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,790 Come to us first and then go to EPOD and then 62 00:03:04,940 --> 00:03:05,330 That's right. 63 00:03:05,690 --> 00:03:06,950 But EPOD's also awesome. 64 00:03:06,950 --> 00:03:08,480 We're gonna talk about that a little bit with her. 65 00:03:08,630 --> 00:03:10,010 And it's in the UK, which 66 00:03:10,010 --> 00:03:10,430 That's right. 67 00:03:10,430 --> 00:03:10,850 That's right. 68 00:03:10,900 --> 00:03:12,970 But her abstract was super interesting. 69 00:03:12,970 --> 00:03:17,625 It's quite, I guess somewhat provocative from an academia perspective and 70 00:03:17,625 --> 00:03:21,895 how podcasting isn't just a medium, but as she says, a vehicle for 71 00:03:21,895 --> 00:03:24,775 dismantling academic hierarchies. 72 00:03:24,779 --> 00:03:26,219 So let's get into it. 73 00:03:26,429 --> 00:03:29,669 I'm still stuck on provocative and academia together. 74 00:03:29,669 --> 00:03:31,379 It just doesn't feel like it fits. 75 00:03:32,901 --> 00:03:33,621 It does now. 76 00:03:33,671 --> 00:03:35,281 It does now; let's get into it. 77 00:03:36,241 --> 00:03:36,931 Welcome Carola. 78 00:03:37,051 --> 00:03:40,831 It's uh, so nice to have you here on the Continuing Studies podcast. 79 00:03:40,891 --> 00:03:42,151 I'm so delighted to be here. 80 00:03:42,151 --> 00:03:45,436 Actually, I've been listening to your podcast for quite some time, so here I am. 81 00:03:45,596 --> 00:03:46,171 I love that. 82 00:03:46,231 --> 00:03:50,161 It's so funny because I forget that we're so worldly and like anytime I 83 00:03:50,161 --> 00:03:54,811 talk to people from around the world, I'm like, you listen to our podcast. 84 00:03:54,936 --> 00:03:59,881 Jen went to the London Podcast Show in '25 and she texted me from the show. 85 00:03:59,881 --> 00:04:04,031 She goes, I met two people here that really listen to our podcast and I, 86 00:04:04,261 --> 00:04:05,311 I didn't believe them. 87 00:04:05,311 --> 00:04:09,421 I made them pull it up on their phone because that's the power of podcasting. 88 00:04:09,421 --> 00:04:10,891 You don't know who you're touching, 89 00:04:10,951 --> 00:04:11,191 you know. 90 00:04:11,191 --> 00:04:14,881 It's also, 'cause of course we all have our stats and we look at our stats and we 91 00:04:14,881 --> 00:04:19,366 see, oh, two and three from here and, you realize that the community that you might 92 00:04:19,366 --> 00:04:22,096 be talking to is not just in one place. 93 00:04:22,096 --> 00:04:24,046 It might be completely dispersed. 94 00:04:24,136 --> 00:04:27,196 And then as we talked before we came on, there might be podcasts which are 95 00:04:27,226 --> 00:04:29,416 very localized and it's so different. 96 00:04:29,416 --> 00:04:30,796 The podcast is not a podcast. 97 00:04:30,796 --> 00:04:33,076 They're all fabulously different. 98 00:04:33,226 --> 00:04:34,276 And anyone can listen. 99 00:04:34,276 --> 00:04:37,786 It doesn't matter even if the content is local, if someone still 100 00:04:37,786 --> 00:04:39,646 wanted to listen, they can listen. 101 00:04:39,706 --> 00:04:41,296 It just might not relate to them. 102 00:04:41,601 --> 00:04:43,731 And I dunno if you get that on your podcast. 103 00:04:43,761 --> 00:04:48,351 So I have had once or twice we are talking about EPOD, our conference 104 00:04:48,351 --> 00:04:51,531 about learning and podcasting or education and podcasting. 105 00:04:51,531 --> 00:04:54,801 But we are talking about it and somebody says, actually I don't podcast anymore 106 00:04:54,831 --> 00:04:56,541 'cause everyone is doing it now. 107 00:04:56,931 --> 00:04:59,241 And I just say, yeah, isn't it great? 108 00:04:59,911 --> 00:05:03,651 It annoys me so much when people are like, oh, I don't wanna do a 109 00:05:03,651 --> 00:05:04,941 podcast because everyone's doing it. 110 00:05:04,941 --> 00:05:05,116 And I'm like. 111 00:05:06,031 --> 00:05:07,471 It's actually not saturated. 112 00:05:07,471 --> 00:05:10,141 It's something we talk about at any of the conferences I go to, and it's, 113 00:05:10,171 --> 00:05:15,391 if you actually look at podcasts out there in different areas, a lot of 114 00:05:15,391 --> 00:05:18,181 them can't get past three episodes. 115 00:05:18,181 --> 00:05:19,381 I know Pod Fade is eight. 116 00:05:19,531 --> 00:05:20,791 I feel like it's lower than eight. 117 00:05:21,526 --> 00:05:24,286 It is a very difficult medium. 118 00:05:24,286 --> 00:05:26,536 It takes a lot of work and you gotta be passionate about it. 119 00:05:26,536 --> 00:05:29,836 So I always tell people, I said, there's so much room, you just 120 00:05:29,836 --> 00:05:31,036 have to be willing to do it. 121 00:05:31,041 --> 00:05:31,456 Yeah, yeah. 122 00:05:31,486 --> 00:05:35,506 I'm one of the fluffy individuals who say three episodes, that's brilliant. 123 00:05:35,536 --> 00:05:36,646 You've got three episodes. 124 00:05:36,646 --> 00:05:41,306 So it's just to have a voice, to not have that more traditional 125 00:05:41,366 --> 00:05:43,886 structures that represent gatekeeping. 126 00:05:43,886 --> 00:05:47,576 And of course that's also what my research is about in terms of how have 127 00:05:47,576 --> 00:05:49,796 we changed, how we culturally engage. 128 00:05:49,946 --> 00:05:53,396 We are moving much more towards co-creation and there's a sort of model. 129 00:05:53,426 --> 00:05:55,106 I go really wild with these models. 130 00:05:55,106 --> 00:05:58,406 I know we're gonna talk about the university 3.0 concept, but it is a 131 00:05:58,406 --> 00:06:00,736 concept that wasn't coined by myself. 132 00:06:00,736 --> 00:06:04,486 It was coined by an Italian cultural professor called Culture 3.0. 133 00:06:04,696 --> 00:06:09,916 And in a nutshell, 1.0 is patronage, if you think our Socratic concerts or things 134 00:06:09,916 --> 00:06:11,746 like that, but also the BBT prompts. 135 00:06:11,806 --> 00:06:14,056 So most through history, so patronage. 136 00:06:14,236 --> 00:06:17,416 The key criteria of 2.0 is IP and copyright. 137 00:06:17,416 --> 00:06:20,086 So think music industry and film industry. 138 00:06:20,291 --> 00:06:21,911 And those are valids. 139 00:06:21,941 --> 00:06:26,291 It's a very particular type of, as a society, engaging in arts and culture. 140 00:06:26,501 --> 00:06:30,371 And then 3.0 comes along and it's co-creation, being more immersive. 141 00:06:30,461 --> 00:06:34,361 You can't quite tell all the audience is who the artist is, when an artwork 142 00:06:34,361 --> 00:06:35,981 starts, when an artwork stops. 143 00:06:36,191 --> 00:06:42,256 And with it comes this really desire of people, us humans, to really be active 144 00:06:42,256 --> 00:06:45,166 participants in cultural production. 145 00:06:45,556 --> 00:06:49,066 And I think podcasting leads into that because you can move from one 146 00:06:49,066 --> 00:06:52,876 moment being a passive audience member to the next moment, being an active 147 00:06:53,236 --> 00:06:58,336 content producer, having a voice and contributing creatively to this ecosystem. 148 00:06:58,556 --> 00:07:01,729 You said it so perfectly and that is why you are the professor of 149 00:07:01,729 --> 00:07:06,589 creative and cultural industries and director of C3 research center. 150 00:07:06,649 --> 00:07:12,169 But uh, really what is a professor of creative and cultural industries? 151 00:07:12,379 --> 00:07:13,339 That's a pretty cool title. 152 00:07:13,419 --> 00:07:16,539 Gosh, well, we do have a center for creative industries and 153 00:07:16,539 --> 00:07:19,059 creative communities, and I was one of the co-founders. 154 00:07:19,059 --> 00:07:21,099 I'm not the director of that center anymore. 155 00:07:21,099 --> 00:07:24,849 So after five, six years I've given it's two sort of emerging 156 00:07:24,939 --> 00:07:27,219 leadership that that is coming up in. 157 00:07:27,219 --> 00:07:28,149 In terms of the center. 158 00:07:28,509 --> 00:07:33,069 Of course, for me, the gosh, there is a longer trajectory, so I came actually 159 00:07:33,069 --> 00:07:37,329 from music technology, so I studied both music and electrical engineering. 160 00:07:37,329 --> 00:07:41,169 I wanted to become a sound engineer, music technology, and these kinds of things. 161 00:07:41,584 --> 00:07:45,514 And I was then involved in research in relation to MP3, which of course 162 00:07:45,514 --> 00:07:50,164 is the technology that also drove the first decades of podcasting as such. 163 00:07:50,374 --> 00:07:56,194 And then I sort of widened the research area, talking about how do we facilitate 164 00:07:56,194 --> 00:08:00,314 in interdisciplinarity in higher education using music technology as a case study. 165 00:08:00,314 --> 00:08:03,224 Because of course, music technology and sound production and music 166 00:08:03,224 --> 00:08:07,754 production is one of those disciplines that emerged relatively new compared 167 00:08:07,754 --> 00:08:09,254 to some of the older disciplines. 168 00:08:09,254 --> 00:08:13,064 And of course new universities were arranging them around that. 169 00:08:13,304 --> 00:08:16,754 And then my sort of research looked even further and talked about 170 00:08:16,754 --> 00:08:18,734 the role of arts in universities. 171 00:08:18,734 --> 00:08:22,754 How do universities become more permeable when they have arts provision, when they 172 00:08:22,754 --> 00:08:27,134 have music provision, when they have theater, art and design, comic arts. 173 00:08:27,134 --> 00:08:29,864 We have at the University of Staffordshire, one of the first cartoon 174 00:08:29,864 --> 00:08:32,354 and comic arts degrees in the UK. 175 00:08:32,549 --> 00:08:36,749 And you know, we need those people to be trained to, to help us all have much 176 00:08:36,749 --> 00:08:39,059 more creative cities and creative lives. 177 00:08:39,419 --> 00:08:42,479 So I really believe in the power of arts and the creative sectors. 178 00:08:42,479 --> 00:08:44,789 And of course podcasting is a big part of that. 179 00:08:44,819 --> 00:08:49,859 So my research then leans at the moment into how do we do this? 180 00:08:49,859 --> 00:08:50,969 It's policy oriented. 181 00:08:51,029 --> 00:08:52,529 How can we create more impact? 182 00:08:52,769 --> 00:08:58,079 How does policy need to change in order for our of arts interventions, cultural 183 00:08:58,079 --> 00:09:03,019 interventions, cultural production, like podcasting to be as effective as 184 00:09:03,019 --> 00:09:08,749 it can be in those places where we need them to, to help those communities to, 185 00:09:08,809 --> 00:09:10,579 to live better than they did before. 186 00:09:10,579 --> 00:09:13,909 And especially, you know, in our times where it's really challenging, 187 00:09:13,939 --> 00:09:15,349 where sometimes there are divides. 188 00:09:15,349 --> 00:09:18,199 Where we have centralized types of nations. 189 00:09:18,259 --> 00:09:21,049 Us here in the UK I'm sitting here and of course it's a very 190 00:09:21,049 --> 00:09:23,209 London centric country still. 191 00:09:23,239 --> 00:09:26,329 We're making headway and, and dispersing the wealth much more 192 00:09:26,329 --> 00:09:28,339 into the other parts of the UK. 193 00:09:28,549 --> 00:09:32,064 That's also challenging, but again having them technologies like 194 00:09:32,064 --> 00:09:36,804 podcasting where the entry barrier is so much lower than it used to be. 195 00:09:37,164 --> 00:09:42,234 It gives the opportunity for creatives to really culturally produce for their places 196 00:09:42,234 --> 00:09:43,734 much more than they ever did before. 197 00:09:43,824 --> 00:09:46,954 I love it that, thank you so much for that insight into your background.. 198 00:09:46,974 --> 00:09:50,874 So let's jump into why I reached out to you originally, which was. 199 00:09:50,949 --> 00:09:56,259 I saw you had posted on LinkedIn your abstract submission for this upcoming 200 00:09:56,499 --> 00:10:01,029 EPOD conference, which is going into it's third year, and your abstract is 201 00:10:01,029 --> 00:10:07,119 titled 'University 3.0 and the Podcast Revolution: Who Owns Knowledge Now?' 202 00:10:07,149 --> 00:10:09,309 Maybe let's just start just top winding a little bit here. 203 00:10:09,309 --> 00:10:11,709 What EPOD is, what the EPOD conferences again at? 204 00:10:11,739 --> 00:10:14,229 We, we have in past episodes, talked about it a little bit. 205 00:10:14,949 --> 00:10:16,779 Conference is going into its third year. 206 00:10:17,049 --> 00:10:20,709 It's this upcoming June at the University of Leeds. 207 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:24,489 Maybe you could just give us a quick little reminder for the audience, 208 00:10:24,489 --> 00:10:27,489 what the EPOD conference is about and what makes it a bit different. 209 00:10:27,669 --> 00:10:32,589 Yes, so it's a conference, educational podcasting, or any kind of intersections 210 00:10:32,589 --> 00:10:34,149 between education and podcasting. 211 00:10:34,149 --> 00:10:35,469 That's what we're catering for. 212 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,119 We started in 2024. 213 00:10:37,119 --> 00:10:39,909 That was our first conference at Morley College in London. 214 00:10:40,084 --> 00:10:46,174 And it was very well received, and we wanted to also create space for the 215 00:10:46,174 --> 00:10:50,884 scholarly community around podcasting in higher education, specifically to have 216 00:10:50,884 --> 00:10:56,724 a space where we could debate, present, and then also write about what we do in 217 00:10:56,724 --> 00:10:59,364 the context of podcasting in education. 218 00:10:59,724 --> 00:11:04,194 And so we always had in mind and we negotiated with Routledge a book series, 219 00:11:04,194 --> 00:11:05,694 and that's part of the conference. 220 00:11:05,694 --> 00:11:09,354 So it's a nice sort of annual rhythm that we get into now. 221 00:11:09,354 --> 00:11:13,404 So we hold the conference, we debate some of those things within the conferences. 222 00:11:13,404 --> 00:11:18,474 Then those papers, those abstracts will morph into full submissions, 223 00:11:18,714 --> 00:11:23,979 which we then review and decide on a book that comes out a year later. 224 00:11:24,309 --> 00:11:28,089 And so, we are now in our third conference and now we are into the second book. 225 00:11:28,089 --> 00:11:29,529 It's gonna be published this year. 226 00:11:29,769 --> 00:11:33,849 And it's, it, it has been quite a journey, but it's been a fabulous journey. 227 00:11:34,119 --> 00:11:37,179 And again, it's surprising that we say how diverse podcasting is 228 00:11:37,179 --> 00:11:40,249 you know, you're really experience it at a conference like that. 229 00:11:40,249 --> 00:11:44,179 So we immediately had an international audience, although it was relatively 230 00:11:44,179 --> 00:11:47,839 small, we call ourselves a boutique conference still, that we had something 231 00:11:47,839 --> 00:11:51,589 like 18 nations represented, you know, and that, that created a really 232 00:11:51,589 --> 00:11:56,359 intimate, uh, lovely connectivity between participants that we then saw on the 233 00:11:56,359 --> 00:12:00,349 second year, and we see now with the abstracts are returning in the third year. 234 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,059 So we're really looking forward to that. 235 00:12:02,329 --> 00:12:04,369 And of course, it was two years in London. 236 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,249 Which of course has its own benefits and advantages of people wanting 237 00:12:08,249 --> 00:12:12,209 to get there, but we really wanted it to also move around the country. 238 00:12:12,209 --> 00:12:16,439 And so we're really proud that it now moves north to the University of Leeds. 239 00:12:16,619 --> 00:12:18,389 Again, fabulous connection. 240 00:12:18,389 --> 00:12:21,869 So it's very easy to get to with, with flights and with trains. 241 00:12:22,419 --> 00:12:23,889 Leeds, of course, if you haven't been. 242 00:12:23,889 --> 00:12:27,399 Leeds is a brilliant northern city with a lot of music culture. 243 00:12:27,399 --> 00:12:30,039 It's very famous for British music culture as well. 244 00:12:30,249 --> 00:12:32,709 And that's where we're going to be in in June. 245 00:12:33,129 --> 00:12:37,089 And the theme of it is beyond the classroom, power of podcasts in shaping 246 00:12:37,089 --> 00:12:38,499 the future of learning and media. 247 00:12:38,499 --> 00:12:42,969 And of course, that's what I reacted to in my abstract of this 248 00:12:42,969 --> 00:12:47,349 notion of how does podcasting intersect with higher education? 249 00:12:47,589 --> 00:12:51,929 Especially in the UK where our university systems are really struggling. 250 00:12:51,959 --> 00:12:57,599 You know, we had for the last six or seven years the most redundancies in 251 00:12:57,659 --> 00:13:02,039 the most number of universities that we've had for gosh, for several decades. 252 00:13:02,219 --> 00:13:06,269 And of course, the system isn't quite working as well as it should. 253 00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:11,429 And of course, with various external political decisions, whether that's 254 00:13:11,489 --> 00:13:15,749 Brexit, you know, as it put universities in a really difficult situation. 255 00:13:16,354 --> 00:13:21,694 There is the question of are we fit for, for purpose in our contemporary lives? 256 00:13:21,754 --> 00:13:27,994 Um, are there other ways of learning that don't sit in formal institutions? 257 00:13:28,114 --> 00:13:31,144 And of course in that sense, now I'm actually quite passionate 258 00:13:31,144 --> 00:13:33,874 about universities, but I'm also passionate about podcasting. 259 00:13:33,874 --> 00:13:38,954 And how it can disrupt some of the structures that somehow in the sector 260 00:13:38,954 --> 00:13:40,874 we believe we need universities and. 261 00:13:40,904 --> 00:13:43,784 But actually when you talk to academics, you kind of think quite a few of 262 00:13:43,784 --> 00:13:48,764 those structures are keeping us from being agile enough, being permeable 263 00:13:49,184 --> 00:13:53,054 as higher education institutions, reaching out, being more impactful 264 00:13:53,094 --> 00:13:55,914 into the places that we are part of. 265 00:13:56,184 --> 00:14:00,294 And again, podcasting allows that kind of higher education context to be 266 00:14:00,294 --> 00:14:04,494 reflected upon because it's so easy to create a learning environment through 267 00:14:04,494 --> 00:14:09,384 a podcasting that sits, you know, very well outside, it could sit also inside. 268 00:14:09,984 --> 00:14:14,544 But it can also sits outside of sort of formal structures like universities. 269 00:14:14,634 --> 00:14:17,824 Well, I just, I love your abstract and I love the whole concept of EPOD. 270 00:14:17,844 --> 00:14:21,924 I can't believe we talked to somebody a few years ago when you guys had 271 00:14:21,924 --> 00:14:24,954 just said your first one and then you were gonna do your second one, 272 00:14:24,954 --> 00:14:27,054 and then now you're on your third. 273 00:14:27,054 --> 00:14:30,084 But I just love what you were talking about, some of the stuff in your abstract 274 00:14:30,084 --> 00:14:34,554 of like obviously the gatekeepers and things like that and, and not fully 275 00:14:34,554 --> 00:14:36,054 wanting to lean into podcasting. 276 00:14:36,054 --> 00:14:39,584 I think that's something that we're seeing not just in the education side, 277 00:14:39,584 --> 00:14:45,254 but in the broadcasting side is that I think all these legacies, like obviously 278 00:14:45,404 --> 00:14:48,764 higher ed has been around for a long time, same with traditional broadcasting. 279 00:14:48,794 --> 00:14:53,144 They don't wanna necessarily give up control, even though they don't realize 280 00:14:53,144 --> 00:14:57,884 that this new medium is actually giving more information to a wider audience. 281 00:14:58,089 --> 00:14:58,749 Absolutely. 282 00:14:58,749 --> 00:14:59,289 Absolutely. 283 00:14:59,589 --> 00:15:02,709 And of course it is about where knowledge is positioned. 284 00:15:02,799 --> 00:15:07,029 So universities historically, of course, understood themselves as knowledge 285 00:15:07,029 --> 00:15:11,109 being central to their business, to their activities, to everything. 286 00:15:11,379 --> 00:15:13,569 And that's what I call university 1.0. 287 00:15:13,569 --> 00:15:15,339 And I've still experienced that. 288 00:15:15,339 --> 00:15:18,819 So when I came into academia, I was teaching acoustics, uh, 289 00:15:18,849 --> 00:15:22,379 you know, at Glasgow University, the beginning of the web. 290 00:15:22,469 --> 00:15:25,139 The yes, the web was already established, but the acceptance 291 00:15:25,139 --> 00:15:29,099 that the beginning to be for her to be mainstreamed had just begun. 292 00:15:29,399 --> 00:15:32,549 So that means that the only sources of information was me 293 00:15:32,549 --> 00:15:34,799 as a lecturer or the library. 294 00:15:35,189 --> 00:15:36,359 That was 1.0. 295 00:15:36,359 --> 00:15:39,569 And that, of course, is the typical ways of delivering knowledge from 296 00:15:39,569 --> 00:15:42,329 those who have it to those who don't are large class lectures. 297 00:15:42,739 --> 00:15:46,969 Then University 2.0, and this is my conceptualization, to understand how 298 00:15:47,359 --> 00:15:51,289 this, this phenomena of higher education actually works in a knowledge economy. 299 00:15:51,499 --> 00:15:54,499 2.0 is of course where disciplines expanded. 300 00:15:54,499 --> 00:15:55,969 They also become fragmented. 301 00:15:55,969 --> 00:15:59,989 So we know so much now, so that academics or universities where 302 00:15:59,989 --> 00:16:02,239 curating different kinds of degrees. 303 00:16:02,239 --> 00:16:05,639 Let's take a bit of engineering, and let's take a bit of music production 304 00:16:05,639 --> 00:16:08,249 and put that together and then sound, call it sound engineering. 305 00:16:08,249 --> 00:16:12,389 Or let's poke a bit of computer science and a bit of music performance, 306 00:16:12,389 --> 00:16:14,219 and then call it music informatics. 307 00:16:14,459 --> 00:16:19,319 You see the number of degrees and academics curating from all 308 00:16:19,319 --> 00:16:23,219 sorts of areas, various degrees where you have depth to it. 309 00:16:23,459 --> 00:16:27,179 But with that comes also marketization and these became products. 310 00:16:27,179 --> 00:16:30,509 And of course we know that in our American sphere, both in America as 311 00:16:30,509 --> 00:16:34,829 well as the UK, is very famous for using that as a product and seeing 312 00:16:34,829 --> 00:16:36,629 packaging up knowledge as a product. 313 00:16:36,629 --> 00:16:38,039 So knowledge is still central. 314 00:16:38,369 --> 00:16:42,469 And then 3.0 explodes this and says, actually, hang on, we are 315 00:16:42,469 --> 00:16:45,049 living in a knowledge economy, knowledge is all around us. 316 00:16:45,079 --> 00:16:49,459 When I go into a classroom now, I can't say I know everything. 317 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:53,209 Everyone has their mobile phones and within seconds they can, they can 318 00:16:53,239 --> 00:16:57,379 call up what dithering is in digital audio, I don't need to tell them that. 319 00:16:57,379 --> 00:16:59,459 So you need to change how you teach. 320 00:16:59,669 --> 00:17:03,359 And it becomes more permeable and becomes about how do we curate an 321 00:17:03,359 --> 00:17:07,439 environment and learning environment where everyone brings in their knowledge and 322 00:17:07,439 --> 00:17:09,989 learning is put into that environment. 323 00:17:09,989 --> 00:17:11,489 So you curate that learning. 324 00:17:11,879 --> 00:17:13,409 Learners come from different levels. 325 00:17:13,409 --> 00:17:16,739 They all learn from each other, but it's, it's something different. 326 00:17:16,739 --> 00:17:21,869 You have to decentralize knowledge and of course coming back to podcasting disrupts 327 00:17:21,869 --> 00:17:25,899 then this educational stance because that's what podcasting is actually. 328 00:17:25,899 --> 00:17:30,619 Even here, we talk about, we collectively learn, we share our experiences 329 00:17:30,889 --> 00:17:35,329 without a sort of formal, larger institution, which might say, well, 330 00:17:35,329 --> 00:17:40,819 I am the institution that actually holds that patronizes, that knowledge. 331 00:17:41,149 --> 00:17:44,464 And that, of course is what I'm talking about in this abstract. 332 00:17:44,464 --> 00:17:47,869 And just the first sentences, I got a bit giddy with the first sentences 333 00:17:47,869 --> 00:17:49,699 because I was quite controversial with. 334 00:17:49,749 --> 00:17:53,499 "The lecture is dead. The ivory towers cracking, the paper argues that the 335 00:17:53,499 --> 00:17:58,239 podcast revolution is not a side trend. It is a front line of a cultural 336 00:17:58,239 --> 00:18:00,579 insurgency against academic monopolies." 337 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:04,539 And of course I wanted to challenge us because we, there is still this 338 00:18:04,539 --> 00:18:08,799 belief that knowledge is centered to what we do in universities, but 339 00:18:08,859 --> 00:18:12,759 podcasting has actually shown that knowledge is, of course, we really 340 00:18:12,759 --> 00:18:14,439 are firmly in the knowledge economy. 341 00:18:14,769 --> 00:18:16,599 We are firmly in the knowledge society. 342 00:18:16,859 --> 00:18:18,029 Everyone can podcast. 343 00:18:18,029 --> 00:18:22,799 Everyone can create that sort of learning space for themselves or for others. 344 00:18:22,829 --> 00:18:26,759 And that then means universities will need to change and podcasting gives 345 00:18:26,759 --> 00:18:31,149 them also that incentive to understand that they can't hold knowledge as 346 00:18:31,149 --> 00:18:33,539 central positioned as they used to. 347 00:18:33,599 --> 00:18:38,999 And that's hopefully what I'm gonna talk about at the conference and spark 348 00:18:38,999 --> 00:18:42,329 a debate and there might be quite a lot of pushback and we'll see how it goes. 349 00:18:42,509 --> 00:18:42,989 That's great. 350 00:18:43,289 --> 00:18:46,469 You've, you just touched on this a little bit, but I just wanna sort of 351 00:18:46,469 --> 00:18:50,909 unpack it a bit more, but there's a clear challenge in your abstract to these 352 00:18:50,909 --> 00:18:53,429 current structures of power and academia. 353 00:18:53,589 --> 00:18:56,863 We've actually touched on it a bit in our recent episodes too, and this 354 00:18:56,863 --> 00:18:58,423 is, it's really interesting actually. 355 00:18:58,633 --> 00:19:03,133 And you talked about, and you write about how podcasting bypasses gatekeepers 356 00:19:03,133 --> 00:19:07,866 and collapses, this sort of traditional lecture hall structure maybe if you 357 00:19:07,926 --> 00:19:09,276 dig into that a little bit more for us. 358 00:19:09,276 --> 00:19:13,670 For those in unfamiliar with that framing, what kinds of academic gatekeeping are 359 00:19:13,670 --> 00:19:18,500 you referring to and how is podcasting creating entirely new pathways for 360 00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:20,270 knowledge creation and dissemination? 361 00:19:20,350 --> 00:19:23,230 Yeah, so now of course there are different systems. 362 00:19:23,230 --> 00:19:25,750 UK system is a bit different than the US system. 363 00:19:25,813 --> 00:19:30,043 So for instance one of the gatekeeping contexts that I would say that 364 00:19:30,043 --> 00:19:33,793 we experienced in the UK is the cultures around quality assurance. 365 00:19:33,793 --> 00:19:39,103 So we of course, have to specify what is in a course, what is being assessed, 366 00:19:39,253 --> 00:19:42,913 and at the moment we change it we will have to go through various rigorous 367 00:19:42,913 --> 00:19:45,463 processes on, on, on signing that off. 368 00:19:45,673 --> 00:19:51,268 And that quite often then is relatively slow compared to how fast the world moves. 369 00:19:51,358 --> 00:19:54,658 And that's of course, if you talk to academics, certainly in the UK, you 370 00:19:54,658 --> 00:19:58,318 know, if they want to be innovative and they want to change some curriculum 371 00:19:58,318 --> 00:20:02,878 content quite fast, it's quite often that the cultures around ensuring 372 00:20:02,878 --> 00:20:07,978 quality are so rigorous that it's quite difficult to change curriculum content 373 00:20:08,098 --> 00:20:11,008 to the level that I believe we need to. 374 00:20:11,008 --> 00:20:14,038 Some people would say that We need that to ensure the quality. 375 00:20:14,138 --> 00:20:17,798 But of course, quality as a concept is also a great gatekeeping 376 00:20:17,798 --> 00:20:19,418 device to just argue with. 377 00:20:19,418 --> 00:20:20,588 We need to keep the quality. 378 00:20:20,648 --> 00:20:26,078 I would say where universities in the UK have adopted cultures that 379 00:20:26,078 --> 00:20:31,478 yes, create a sort of quality product that comes the challenge of being 380 00:20:31,508 --> 00:20:33,368 agile enough, being permeable. 381 00:20:33,518 --> 00:20:36,938 Again another thing is that loads of academics want to actually 382 00:20:36,938 --> 00:20:38,528 bring in the industry much more. 383 00:20:38,763 --> 00:20:42,573 But of course our systems, how we are paid, how student fees are 384 00:20:42,573 --> 00:20:46,413 paying the university makes it quite difficult to say, oh, let's bring 385 00:20:46,413 --> 00:20:47,823 some industry professionals in. 386 00:20:47,823 --> 00:20:51,453 Let's co-teach that with industry professionals because they are asked 387 00:20:51,453 --> 00:20:55,503 of systems in terms of the student income distribution models, where 388 00:20:55,503 --> 00:20:57,393 that becomes really quite difficult. 389 00:20:57,543 --> 00:21:02,968 How podcasting undermines that is, is I believe that podcasting 390 00:21:02,968 --> 00:21:09,442 is a phenomena where we can see that people want to be involved in 391 00:21:09,442 --> 00:21:11,602 knowledge production themselves. 392 00:21:11,782 --> 00:21:14,992 So it's not anymore where they want to buy into someone else, 393 00:21:14,992 --> 00:21:16,342 giving them the knowledge. 394 00:21:16,552 --> 00:21:21,112 They want to be part of that knowledge production, that co-creation process. 395 00:21:21,162 --> 00:21:23,592 You can see that people want to have a voice. 396 00:21:23,802 --> 00:21:25,302 People want to produce content. 397 00:21:25,602 --> 00:21:29,382 People want to engage culturally in that. 398 00:21:29,802 --> 00:21:32,287 And of course, app then clashes when you think about it with 399 00:21:32,287 --> 00:21:33,647 large knowledge institutions. 400 00:21:33,987 --> 00:21:36,462 And we can also take broadcasting in there. 401 00:21:36,672 --> 00:21:40,842 Which traditionally were more centrally organized and that centrally 402 00:21:41,022 --> 00:21:46,752 organizational entity than has its own base again, keeping quality. 403 00:21:46,962 --> 00:21:48,492 So there's a bit of a tension. 404 00:21:48,852 --> 00:21:51,162 And of course, in some ways, I'm not saying that's bad. 405 00:21:51,192 --> 00:21:54,352 These kinds of structures of typical larger institutions, whether 406 00:21:54,352 --> 00:21:57,562 that's broadcasting institutions in the UK, for instance, BBC, they 407 00:21:57,562 --> 00:21:59,272 provide something really valuable. 408 00:21:59,542 --> 00:22:00,082 But what I'm saying is. 409 00:22:00,967 --> 00:22:02,527 We do need to mix the models. 410 00:22:02,587 --> 00:22:08,317 We need university 3.0 and 2.0, or we need culture 3.0 as well as 2.0. 411 00:22:08,527 --> 00:22:10,117 So we do need those industries. 412 00:22:10,117 --> 00:22:13,897 We do need patronage, but if we want to have impact, our institutions 413 00:22:13,897 --> 00:22:15,217 need to be more permeable. 414 00:22:15,397 --> 00:22:18,877 They need to understand that knowledge is all around us now 415 00:22:18,877 --> 00:22:23,642 that we all want to co-produce and share knowledge creation and that 416 00:22:23,642 --> 00:22:25,682 the way we do that needs to change. 417 00:22:25,682 --> 00:22:27,842 So the focus then becomes on the environment. 418 00:22:28,022 --> 00:22:32,312 And again, podcasting can then, for many educators, be that learning environment 419 00:22:32,312 --> 00:22:37,772 where we co-produce knowledge and produce stuff together and co-create. 420 00:22:38,252 --> 00:22:41,402 Rather than that, it's somebody who says, this is the quality 421 00:22:41,432 --> 00:22:45,482 or this is the excellence, and somebody else is a passive consumer. 422 00:22:45,782 --> 00:22:46,967 So I think that's the tension. 423 00:22:47,407 --> 00:22:52,087 I know we don't want any gatekeepers, but do you think there needs to be any, as 424 00:22:52,087 --> 00:22:58,517 we move into, uh, this world of obviously AI and all this stuff, do you think there 425 00:22:58,517 --> 00:23:02,027 needs to be any type of governance on it? 426 00:23:02,057 --> 00:23:06,497 Because like right now, anyone can crack open a mic and say what they wanna do. 427 00:23:06,497 --> 00:23:10,337 And with AI, there's not really any rules and regulations around it. 428 00:23:10,497 --> 00:23:13,797 And like I come from traditional broadcasting, where here in Canada 429 00:23:13,797 --> 00:23:18,327 specifically, we're governed by the CRTC and there's things that we can 430 00:23:18,327 --> 00:23:22,197 and cannot say, but obviously with podcasting we're in a different realm. 431 00:23:22,227 --> 00:23:26,307 But when it comes to education, you still need someone making sure 432 00:23:26,307 --> 00:23:28,317 there's not misinformation out there. 433 00:23:28,517 --> 00:23:29,567 Yeah, yeah. 434 00:23:29,567 --> 00:23:30,047 Brilliance. 435 00:23:30,151 --> 00:23:34,081 How do we govern that we get stuff that we can trust? 436 00:23:34,261 --> 00:23:37,681 Now when we had the systems that we had. 437 00:23:37,741 --> 00:23:41,911 So, uh, of course I'm a sort of believer in decentralized co-creation, 438 00:23:41,971 --> 00:23:47,221 devolving of authority, multi-level participatory governance, because 439 00:23:47,221 --> 00:23:49,201 that's actually can be a safety net. 440 00:23:49,356 --> 00:23:55,846 And I think we realize that when we rely on a small group of individuals 441 00:23:55,846 --> 00:24:01,096 producing possibly the technologies, the networking technologies, the connectivity, 442 00:24:01,456 --> 00:24:03,706 it can go really pear shaped. 443 00:24:03,856 --> 00:24:08,956 There's a perception of quality with a smaller group of individuals 444 00:24:09,136 --> 00:24:12,826 where it's actually not of benefit to the larger individuals. 445 00:24:12,976 --> 00:24:16,756 And of course in the music industry, we had actually this whole debate about, 446 00:24:17,026 --> 00:24:22,156 oh, do digital technologies create a mass amount of, what do you call it? 447 00:24:22,426 --> 00:24:25,336 Not good music because now we all have the technology. 448 00:24:25,336 --> 00:24:28,456 So do we have to now wade through bad music in order to get those 449 00:24:28,456 --> 00:24:31,966 glittering good music because the technology is now so available. 450 00:24:32,176 --> 00:24:36,526 And I would actually say that's also what giving over power is, and I 451 00:24:36,526 --> 00:24:41,506 would rather have a world where there are still these gems, but everyone 452 00:24:41,506 --> 00:24:43,096 can actually produce something. 453 00:24:43,096 --> 00:24:48,406 Because the act of culturally engaging in itself is so valuable for us as human 454 00:24:48,406 --> 00:24:50,416 beings who want to culturally engage. 455 00:24:50,746 --> 00:24:56,056 So I think this notion of gatekeeping is really, um for me, also a political, 456 00:24:56,236 --> 00:25:00,496 and just as we know, all Wikipedia, and it's a really good example because 457 00:25:00,496 --> 00:25:06,016 Wikipedia has found a way how collectively they keep a certain amount of quality 458 00:25:06,166 --> 00:25:09,766 whilst allowing everyone to contribute. 459 00:25:09,946 --> 00:25:13,306 So there are systems, and it's not kind of democracy, but 460 00:25:13,306 --> 00:25:14,746 it is a collective endeavor. 461 00:25:14,951 --> 00:25:18,371 There are systems where you can actually say, actually we are together. 462 00:25:18,641 --> 00:25:20,981 We can create something, which is much more valuable. 463 00:25:20,981 --> 00:25:24,431 Just as comparison, the Encyclopedia Britannica, where you had a sort of 464 00:25:24,641 --> 00:25:30,011 quality assurance and there's a reason why Wikipedia has become the norm and 465 00:25:30,091 --> 00:25:35,111 Encyclopedia Britannica is, has become to be the past, and it is about allowing 466 00:25:35,111 --> 00:25:39,911 more voices and more contributors to culturally engage in knowledge production. 467 00:25:39,916 --> 00:25:40,036 Right. 468 00:25:40,861 --> 00:25:41,941 This, this has been great. 469 00:25:41,941 --> 00:25:45,901 I wanna close with one question though, for you, say a university leader 470 00:25:45,931 --> 00:25:49,301 came to you and said, we wanna move towards this university 3.0 model. 471 00:25:50,095 --> 00:25:53,308 Where do you suggest that they would start? 472 00:25:53,608 --> 00:25:56,188 Yeah, so I have an article about that, so of, 473 00:25:56,188 --> 00:25:58,708 oh, we'll link to that in our show notes then 474 00:25:59,353 --> 00:26:01,618 so, so, you know, of course you've gotta start small. 475 00:26:01,618 --> 00:26:06,268 So we have actually managed to receive funding from the Arts Council and from 476 00:26:06,268 --> 00:26:11,548 the National Lottery Heritage Fund in the UK to run a sort of executive 477 00:26:11,548 --> 00:26:15,928 style leadership course like at masters level for cultural leadership. 478 00:26:16,168 --> 00:26:18,688 And it's called Create Place, the Co-creation and 479 00:26:18,688 --> 00:26:20,698 Placemaking Leadership Program. 480 00:26:20,908 --> 00:26:26,248 And the content of it is that we are engaging deeply in how do we co-create, 481 00:26:26,248 --> 00:26:29,578 how do we do participatory approaches, how do we do that for the places 482 00:26:29,578 --> 00:26:31,228 that we live in to be more impactful. 483 00:26:31,423 --> 00:26:34,273 And then we sort of co-create these learning environments where 484 00:26:34,273 --> 00:26:35,863 learning happens at all levels. 485 00:26:36,253 --> 00:26:39,673 So I think that's for us, a really important thing. 486 00:26:39,673 --> 00:26:42,223 And again, coming back to podcasting, 'cause that's what we're talking 487 00:26:42,223 --> 00:26:44,353 about, podcasting can do that. 488 00:26:44,353 --> 00:26:48,163 And some of my past, and I'm not as experienced as some 489 00:26:48,163 --> 00:26:49,753 of you in terms of podcasts. 490 00:26:49,783 --> 00:26:54,553 You know, I have also my three little tiny podcasts where we created these 491 00:26:54,553 --> 00:26:58,213 tiny little learning environments where we collectively learn, where we bring in 492 00:26:58,423 --> 00:27:02,413 other people to learn this, where we have those conversations like we have here. 493 00:27:02,588 --> 00:27:04,868 It doesn't matter what kind of institutions you come from. 494 00:27:04,868 --> 00:27:08,978 We have a conversation and we take it out there and hopefully audience and activist 495 00:27:08,978 --> 00:27:10,778 and bring some interactivity back. 496 00:27:10,778 --> 00:27:14,258 And then maybe some of the audience will create on podcasts because 497 00:27:14,258 --> 00:27:15,308 they have something to say. 498 00:27:15,563 --> 00:27:19,313 Again, coming back to the first things that we said, if they only put towards one 499 00:27:19,313 --> 00:27:21,713 or two episodes, I think that's beautiful. 500 00:27:21,953 --> 00:27:24,923 They had something to say and they managed to say it. 501 00:27:25,013 --> 00:27:28,163 I love how you tied that together and podcasts if you wanna do it, 502 00:27:28,163 --> 00:27:29,843 because there's a lot of room for you. 503 00:27:29,903 --> 00:27:34,313 Well, the, and even if there are only 5 or 10 members of audiences, 504 00:27:34,343 --> 00:27:38,693 if you love doing that, and if that's a deep conversation, why not? 505 00:27:38,783 --> 00:27:42,448 Then it's equivalent of I meet those five people in the pub and I have 506 00:27:42,448 --> 00:27:44,368 a two hour intensive conversation. 507 00:27:44,548 --> 00:27:48,958 Whether that's my conversation physically in the pub or in a half hour podcast. 508 00:27:48,958 --> 00:27:49,288 You know, 509 00:27:49,348 --> 00:27:52,078 it's, I tell people this all the time because everyone will be like, 510 00:27:52,498 --> 00:27:55,798 I only get 20 people listening to my full episode every time. 511 00:27:55,858 --> 00:27:58,408 Like, if I put 20 people in a room, would you be upset? 512 00:27:58,588 --> 00:27:58,888 No. 513 00:27:58,888 --> 00:27:59,728 You'd love that. 514 00:27:59,908 --> 00:28:00,148 Yeah. 515 00:28:00,353 --> 00:28:02,513 Anyways, I feel like we could get into it. 516 00:28:02,903 --> 00:28:05,783 Yeah, let's, let's, I have to be stopped as well talking 517 00:28:05,783 --> 00:28:07,133 about this kind of stuff, so. 518 00:28:07,283 --> 00:28:09,713 Well, this was a really amazing conversation. 519 00:28:09,713 --> 00:28:12,623 Thank you so much for sharing with us. 520 00:28:12,653 --> 00:28:15,263 I know we're getting ahead here because this is what you're going 521 00:28:15,263 --> 00:28:19,673 to be expounding upon in June, so thank you so much for joining us. 522 00:28:19,703 --> 00:28:20,228 Thank you very much, 523 00:28:20,728 --> 00:28:20,948 Jen. 524 00:28:21,023 --> 00:28:23,993 I really enjoyed that conversation with Carola. 525 00:28:24,053 --> 00:28:27,588 I feel like as we've gone on with this podcast, I feel like 526 00:28:27,588 --> 00:28:28,938 you and I have gotten smarter. 527 00:28:29,928 --> 00:28:31,428 What were we before though? 528 00:28:33,048 --> 00:28:37,068 No, I just think we have these great episodes about more technical 529 00:28:37,068 --> 00:28:40,698 things about podcasting, but then we've had a bunch of episodes lately 530 00:28:40,698 --> 00:28:44,748 where it's just, it's a little bit more cerebral and I quite enjoy it. 531 00:28:44,748 --> 00:28:46,308 Actually, you know what I did, Jen? 532 00:28:46,368 --> 00:28:50,988 I was inspired, and this past Friday I submitted an abstract for EPOD. 533 00:28:51,468 --> 00:28:52,818 Ooh, what's the title? 534 00:28:53,183 --> 00:28:57,743 My title is Open Scholarship, Closed Distribution: Why 535 00:28:57,743 --> 00:29:00,803 Academia Must Reengage With RSS. 536 00:29:01,073 --> 00:29:02,603 We'll save that for another episode. 537 00:29:02,603 --> 00:29:05,513 This is, this is the most academic I've been in like 20 538 00:29:05,513 --> 00:29:07,133 years since I was in university. 539 00:29:07,133 --> 00:29:10,853 You know what's funny is I sent it to my son, both my sons that are in university 540 00:29:10,883 --> 00:29:13,523 and the oldest one, the smart ass. 541 00:29:13,523 --> 00:29:15,293 So you, you, you know what he said, Jen? 542 00:29:15,293 --> 00:29:17,813 He said the way you formatted, that's totally wrong. 543 00:29:18,148 --> 00:29:20,818 And I'm like, oh no, like maybe I've screwed it up or whatever. 544 00:29:20,818 --> 00:29:23,308 But I went back and I looked at Carola's and I was like, 545 00:29:23,308 --> 00:29:24,658 Nope, mine's similar to hers. 546 00:29:24,658 --> 00:29:25,678 I think I'm gonna be okay. 547 00:29:25,858 --> 00:29:27,808 I don't know if I trust that generation. 548 00:29:27,808 --> 00:29:30,628 I just found out in elementary school that they're not doing the 549 00:29:30,628 --> 00:29:32,398 Times Table anymore, so we're good. 550 00:29:33,958 --> 00:29:34,408 Okay. 551 00:29:34,768 --> 00:29:36,508 Well, on that note, why don't you read us out? 552 00:29:36,808 --> 00:29:39,238 Thank you for tuning into the Continue Studies podcast. 553 00:29:39,238 --> 00:29:41,368 The podcast for Higher education podcasters. 554 00:29:41,368 --> 00:29:44,878 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 555 00:29:45,218 --> 00:29:48,308 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our 556 00:29:48,308 --> 00:29:51,908 podcast on your preferred platform, so you'll never miss an episode. 557 00:29:51,908 --> 00:29:55,268 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider 558 00:29:55,268 --> 00:29:58,358 sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested 559 00:29:58,358 --> 00:30:00,188 in higher education podcasts. 560 00:30:00,368 --> 00:30:03,638 We also invite you to join your peers on higher ed pods.com. 561 00:30:04,088 --> 00:30:07,358 Where you can connect with other podcasters in higher education and 562 00:30:07,358 --> 00:30:08,828 learn from others in the field. 563 00:30:09,188 --> 00:30:11,228 Thank you for being part of our community. 564 00:30:11,228 --> 00:30:14,678 We look forward to continuing to bring valuable insights and conversations 565 00:30:14,678 --> 00:30:16,358 around higher education podcasts. 566 00:30:16,658 --> 00:30:18,158 See you in the next episode.