1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,320
what's happening is sure you've slapped

2
00:00:01,599 --> 00:00:05,200
it up somewhere and I saw something and

3
00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,600
I randomly filled out a form and then

4
00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,519
you get the lead that's like these

5
00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,960
people are interested in speaking to you

6
00:00:08,519 --> 00:00:12,759
what that means is your white paper is

7
00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:14,839
an open tab one of a thousand sitting in

8
00:00:12,759 --> 00:00:17,120
a browser window that they forgot to

9
00:00:14,839 --> 00:00:17,120
actually

10
00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:24,560
read hello I'm Carrie guard CEO of mkg

11
00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,840
marketing and welcome back to tea time

12
00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:30,039
with tech marketing leaders I'm so

13
00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:32,079
excited for this conversation uh I

14
00:00:30,039 --> 00:00:34,600
didn't even know that George Kam knew

15
00:00:32,079 --> 00:00:36,320
who I was y'all and he did it was so

16
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:39,079
exciting and we just hit the ground

17
00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:41,360
running at Cyber marketing con about all

18
00:00:39,079 --> 00:00:43,559
the things and I'm so excited to now

19
00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,879
have somewhat of that conversation here

20
00:00:43,559 --> 00:00:49,000
live with you all so you can hear it

21
00:00:44,879 --> 00:00:52,920
because it is gold gold George welcome

22
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:55,960
to the show happy to be here so excited

23
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:57,440
like I said little bit about uh I'm

24
00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,920
going to I'm going to read your bio for

25
00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,559
folks but really what we're going to be

26
00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:04,559
looking forward to for to is your story

27
00:01:01,559 --> 00:01:06,479
so real quick little bit about George he

28
00:01:04,559 --> 00:01:09,560
is the head of community and content at

29
00:01:06,479 --> 00:01:12,040
the ceso society a community of 1400

30
00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:14,159
plus Security leaders and Counting he

31
00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,240
co-hosts bear Knuckles and Brass tax a

32
00:01:14,159 --> 00:01:18,040
podcast exploring the human side of the

33
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,240
cyber security industry and is the

34
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,680
co-founder and executive director of

35
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,880
Mind Over cyber a nonprofit helping

36
00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:27,640
infosec professionals manage

37
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,640
stress he frequently speaks on AI and

38
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,880
cyber security advises early stage

39
00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,000
startups and addresses value creation

40
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:36,240
and risk management for organizations

41
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,640
ranging from NOS to Fortune 500

42
00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,720
companies his disinformation research

43
00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:44,560
has been featured in The Washington Post

44
00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:46,880
the guardian and BBC News he has had

45
00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:50,439
also briefed us cyber command and the

46
00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:53,000
Congressional cyber caucus on influence

47
00:01:50,439 --> 00:01:56,479
operations what a guest y'all what a

48
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,960
guest George ah so good why don't you

49
00:01:56,479 --> 00:02:00,039
tell us your story though that's a lot

50
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,000
of juice in there of some amazing

51
00:02:00,039 --> 00:02:04,600
compliment but how did you get there

52
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:07,039
what's the journey bring us uh I don't

53
00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:09,160
know I mean we talked earlier I'm going

54
00:02:07,039 --> 00:02:12,560
to curse everyone because that's how I

55
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:14,440
express myself so my future Memoir will

56
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:18,599
be titled blindly stumbling into Fun

57
00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:22,400
[ __ ] um so I got an MFA in creative

58
00:02:18,599 --> 00:02:24,160
writing and in 2013 before Transformers

59
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,760
were a thing I think the papers were

60
00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:29,480
just being published

61
00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:31,400
um yeah they would pay you um at a

62
00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,200
salary to write coherent sentences

63
00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:37,000
because apparently that was in short

64
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:39,480
supply so I wa parlayed that into a job

65
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,120
in marketing worked for a small agency

66
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,360
that got successfully acquired until we

67
00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:46,159
were a global marketing agency and um I

68
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,319
got tired of having ideas that people

69
00:02:46,159 --> 00:02:51,120
wouldn't action on because of some

70
00:02:48,319 --> 00:02:54,280
bureaucratic thing on the client side

71
00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,640
and so I sort of side doored into a

72
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,680
cyber security startup that was working

73
00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:58,760
on social media threats and then went

74
00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,519
from there but I've been working with

75
00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:03,599
computers since I was seven

76
00:03:00,519 --> 00:03:05,159
so like a lot of the how networking

77
00:03:03,599 --> 00:03:07,599
works and the technology and stuff

78
00:03:05,159 --> 00:03:09,640
wasn't entirely new to me and then on

79
00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:11,599
top of that I was an anthropologist by

80
00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:14,120
training and what I like to say radical

81
00:03:11,599 --> 00:03:15,959
humanist by vocation so I think that

82
00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,360
it's been very rewarding in the sense

83
00:03:15,959 --> 00:03:19,360
that I've been able to apply that

84
00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,319
anthropological lens to basically

85
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:24,319
everything I

86
00:03:20,319 --> 00:03:26,440
do oh my gosh I like want to dig into

87
00:03:24,319 --> 00:03:29,319
all of the things what do you feel like

88
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:31,040
from an anthropological standpoint has

89
00:03:29,319 --> 00:03:35,640
been the most

90
00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:37,319
useful aspect from your from what you

91
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,519
learned to what you're Now app how are

92
00:03:37,319 --> 00:03:42,760
your how you're now applying that in

93
00:03:39,519 --> 00:03:45,760
your marketing job uh listening and

94
00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:48,920
watching you know I think fundamentally

95
00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:52,599
marketing is the anthropology of your

96
00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:54,319
customer right you are trying to learn

97
00:03:52,599 --> 00:03:56,200
how they behave how they think how they

98
00:03:54,319 --> 00:03:57,439
talk and you're trying to meet them

99
00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,079
there I don't think you're trying to

100
00:03:57,439 --> 00:04:00,720
like weaponize those patterns of

101
00:03:59,079 --> 00:04:03,879
behavior but certainly need to learn

102
00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,799
them and then um what I do at the cesa

103
00:04:03,879 --> 00:04:07,439
society is managing that Community is

104
00:04:05,799 --> 00:04:09,159
like the anthropology of security leader

105
00:04:07,439 --> 00:04:11,640
is also the same thing it's just

106
00:04:09,159 --> 00:04:13,480
listening and watching and observing I

107
00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,319
guess is really it's it's been in

108
00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:19,919
everything whether I was looking at bots

109
00:04:15,319 --> 00:04:22,120
on Twitter back during 2016 to 2017 or

110
00:04:19,919 --> 00:04:25,199
whether it's the cesos and how they talk

111
00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:28,800
about vendors how they talk about their

112
00:04:25,199 --> 00:04:30,400
fears worries aspirations all of it I'm

113
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,680
going on a tangent y bring us back to

114
00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:36,199
Center I promise but I have to know in

115
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:38,800
terms of all that listening you're

116
00:04:36,199 --> 00:04:39,880
doing uh especially with your audience

117
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,840
your primary

118
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:45,680
audience what's

119
00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:46,919
one thing you're hearing most right now

120
00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,400
it almost feels like they're shouting it

121
00:04:46,919 --> 00:04:50,320
at you even but you're probably

122
00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,759
listening most intently than more than

123
00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,360
most people so it probably feels like

124
00:04:51,759 --> 00:04:56,479
you're over it but maybe people still

125
00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:59,000
need to hear it so what's that yeah

126
00:04:56,479 --> 00:05:01,199
there are two things I think from

127
00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,280
there's a huge divide between technology

128
00:05:01,199 --> 00:05:05,280
providers and Technology buyers mostly

129
00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:07,360
because of like where the priorities are

130
00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:09,680
if you're a technology provider you're

131
00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:12,039
in it you're in the tooling you're like

132
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,360
want to sell the widget so that's like

133
00:05:12,039 --> 00:05:15,240
where the incentive structure of

134
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,680
capitalism is around that widget and its

135
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:20,039
features and all that stuff and that's

136
00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:23,520
only like a fraction of what your buyer

137
00:05:20,039 --> 00:05:26,680
cares about and I think the companies

138
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:29,880
that succeed are the ones that can close

139
00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:32,400
that Gap the fastest right I think you'd

140
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,360
be surprised that the number of names of

141
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:37,280
big vendors that get mentioned as rip

142
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:39,360
and replace because poor customer

143
00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:43,199
service they they can't get anyone to

144
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:46,039
answer their support tickets or

145
00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:47,600
um yeah they just feel like they as the

146
00:05:46,039 --> 00:05:49,600
customer don't count and that's not a

147
00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,120
technology problem right that's a people

148
00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,479
problem that's a process problem and so

149
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,000
again you you have to care about kind of

150
00:05:54,479 --> 00:05:57,440
all of it and I think you would only do

151
00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,039
that if you were really paying attention

152
00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,120
to your customers well that's actually a

153
00:06:00,039 --> 00:06:04,680
lovely segue but before we do that one

154
00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:07,560
last question for you around you know

155
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:10,160
for you right now as a

156
00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,520
GTM marketer and for all the clients

157
00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,000
you're working with as well as all the

158
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,759
communities you're working within what's

159
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,840
one challenge you're currently having

160
00:06:15,759 --> 00:06:21,240
what feels Harden in your way right now

161
00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:24,240
storytelling

162
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:26,880
sucks really yeah yeah storytelling

163
00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:29,759
sucks I think the go to market motion of

164
00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,319
the heady SAS 2.0 era is what I call it

165
00:06:29,759 --> 00:06:33,199
it's like the time where we had zero

166
00:06:31,319 --> 00:06:35,800
interest rates and everyone was just

167
00:06:33,199 --> 00:06:38,199
like up into the right exponential sales

168
00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:41,240
that's a particular Playbook and

169
00:06:38,199 --> 00:06:43,000
everyone who let me be let me not

170
00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,199
generalize most of the people in

171
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,080
positions of authority today came from

172
00:06:45,199 --> 00:06:49,479
that era so they're sort of copying and

173
00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,880
pasting that Playbook despite the fact

174
00:06:49,479 --> 00:06:52,560
that markets are not static they're

175
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,319
Dynamic things change I go to

176
00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:58,080
conferences now and I look out and we're

177
00:06:55,319 --> 00:07:00,080
talking 38y old cesos you know it's a

178
00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,879
different

179
00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,120
person it's a different buying Behavior

180
00:07:01,879 --> 00:07:06,080
the way they grew up on the Internet is

181
00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,360
different and so I think we have to

182
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:11,960
change those things and because there's

183
00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:14,720
so much noise you just can't count on

184
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,919
like doing things the old way and so

185
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,039
when I say storytelling sucks I think

186
00:07:16,919 --> 00:07:21,599
technical Founders are very necessary in

187
00:07:19,039 --> 00:07:23,160
terms of they were either operators and

188
00:07:21,599 --> 00:07:24,879
they're trying to make up for a gap that

189
00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,759
they couldn't I've spoken to a lot who

190
00:07:24,879 --> 00:07:29,000
are like look I worked at such and such

191
00:07:26,759 --> 00:07:30,240
company like Big Fang style companies

192
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,280
and we couldn't find a single vendor

193
00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,599
that did this and we kind of coded

194
00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,680
something ourselves but I saw an

195
00:07:34,599 --> 00:07:39,319
opportunity great that's

196
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,000
great but the things that you care about

197
00:07:39,319 --> 00:07:44,319
as a technical founder and as an

198
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,319
engineer are not the same things that

199
00:07:44,319 --> 00:07:49,159
your customer cares about and that's a

200
00:07:46,319 --> 00:07:52,000
really hard mental hurdle to

201
00:07:49,159 --> 00:07:53,199
overcome and the storytelling is just

202
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:56,240
awful it's

203
00:07:53,199 --> 00:07:58,599
like just read me the spec sheet read me

204
00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,520
the road map okay that's cool but like I

205
00:07:58,599 --> 00:08:02,440
started asking is like what business

206
00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:05,319
risk do you help cyber security leaders

207
00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:07,000
draw down and there's like maybe one in

208
00:08:05,319 --> 00:08:09,159
10 can answer that question they're very

209
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,400
used to like what is the Cyber threat

210
00:08:09,159 --> 00:08:15,280
that you address or what is the Cyber

211
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:17,639
risk you mitigate DLP you know unified

212
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:20,400
endpoint Network

213
00:08:17,639 --> 00:08:22,919
whatever but the but they have to go

214
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,599
sell that story the C has to go sell

215
00:08:22,919 --> 00:08:26,280
that story to the either the board the

216
00:08:24,599 --> 00:08:30,120
CIO the

217
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:31,520
CFO very few cesos have the the check

218
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,399
capability so they got to go get the

219
00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,719
money from somebody and So the faster

220
00:08:33,399 --> 00:08:38,399
you can equip them with a story to tell

221
00:08:35,719 --> 00:08:42,000
on your behalf the the better your sales

222
00:08:38,399 --> 00:08:44,240
cycle will be I MA yes I think when you

223
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,920
start putting it

224
00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:52,480
against problem solution which really

225
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:55,040
comes down to what threat you detect or

226
00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:57,720
um mitigate against the feature right

227
00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,160
that's one very quick story that seems

228
00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,480
to be where everybody goes but when you

229
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,959
really pull up and ask about what

230
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:08,079
business problem you're

231
00:09:03,959 --> 00:09:12,440
solving that's a very different story to

232
00:09:08,079 --> 00:09:15,920
tell that I imagine in cyber can be both

233
00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:18,200
can be somewhat easy but also hard

234
00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:21,600
because it's the same story everybody

235
00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:23,519
would tell Right In terms yeah meantime

236
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,079
to detection meantime to response

237
00:09:23,519 --> 00:09:29,079
whatever see all the things more

238
00:09:26,079 --> 00:09:31,360
visibility um what you really need to

239
00:09:29,079 --> 00:09:33,720
think about is also the foundation of

240
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,040
Storytelling right so there is a dream

241
00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,519
in the Founder's head in a certain

242
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:40,880
hubris it's absolutely required to

243
00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:42,880
survive in the market to even have the

244
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,600
konus that like I can make this thing

245
00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,600
and it's worthwhile and somebody's going

246
00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:50,720
to buy it takes a lot of Pride but then

247
00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:53,839
you kind of gotta fail fast and and get

248
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:56,880
really humble because that storytelling

249
00:09:53,839 --> 00:09:59,640
Foundation is is essential for scaling

250
00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:01,600
right where we see the failure is as

251
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,720
series a ramps up and you're acquiring

252
00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,480
more customers the sellers that you are

253
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,399
hiring and you're transitioning out of

254
00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,959
founder Le sales or network Le sales you

255
00:10:08,399 --> 00:10:11,560
have to have taught those people how to

256
00:10:09,959 --> 00:10:13,800
sell like you did to have the same

257
00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:17,360
vision that you did that work doesn't

258
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:19,519
get done that's a huge ironic data loss

259
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:22,160
problem in this in the cyber security

260
00:10:19,519 --> 00:10:26,320
ecosystem and then you pay for it later

261
00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:27,640
you pay for it in so in either churn

262
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,800
because sellers aren't getting what they

263
00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,959
want or they don't have the playbooks

264
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,720
they need they're not set up for success

265
00:10:30,959 --> 00:10:36,120
or you're getting it in rebrands that

266
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:38,839
are really expensive website rebuilds

267
00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,399
messaging workshops from series A to B

268
00:10:38,839 --> 00:10:43,079
this is like a really high friction

269
00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:45,800
point we are talking like a lot of burnt

270
00:10:43,079 --> 00:10:47,959
Capital if if you just took the time to

271
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:50,240
get the storytelling right and the and

272
00:10:47,959 --> 00:10:52,040
the coaching you can provide the solid

273
00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,480
foundation and you can easily build on

274
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,800
top of that and and scale it up but it's

275
00:10:54,480 --> 00:11:00,279
it's so hard to do and it's hard to do

276
00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:02,959
well and it doesn't feel

277
00:11:00,279 --> 00:11:04,720
like you're doing something and this is

278
00:11:02,959 --> 00:11:06,600
a huge cognitive hurdle somebody was

279
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:09,120
just ask we were I was talking with

280
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,320
Danny wolf and some others because there

281
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,079
was another vendor that announced

282
00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,360
another F1 sponsorship and they're like

283
00:11:12,079 --> 00:11:15,519
why are they doing this when they

284
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,920
wouldn't pay for this other thing that

285
00:11:15,519 --> 00:11:20,880
was like obviously significantly less

286
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:23,480
than an F1 sponsorship and like because

287
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,279
it doesn't scratch an itch right when

288
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,800
you do these big performative things

289
00:11:25,279 --> 00:11:28,839
like oh I got this series a I'm gon to

290
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,720
go hire this hot [ __ ] cro and a whole

291
00:11:28,839 --> 00:11:33,079
bunch of Enterprise seller is cool it

292
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,760
like feels like you're doing

293
00:11:33,079 --> 00:11:37,639
something and it's performative but it's

294
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:42,360
satisfying right just like getting your

295
00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:44,120
logo on an F1 car y but it's harder work

296
00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,720
to do that sort of to iron out that

297
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:49,000
messaging and it's gritty and it like

298
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:51,600
you're may be moving an inch it's a fine

299
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,440
margin but it it will pay off in the end

300
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,760
but I I think it just doesn't feel like

301
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:59,279
a cognitive relief or something whatever

302
00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:01,120
that is so this dovetails perfectly and

303
00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:02,839
into really where you and I wanted to

304
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:06,000
sit today and the conversation we wanted

305
00:12:02,839 --> 00:12:08,760
to have and it is the the importance of

306
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:11,320
taking that first step of getting the

307
00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:13,320
story right and so I think it's really

308
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,680
key that we I want to double down on

309
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,399
just one thing you said around what the

310
00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:20,160
story needs to be which is and I'm not

311
00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:21,880
hearing this really being talked about

312
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,160
this is really the first time doing this

313
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,680
podcast for five years I've had plenty

314
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,160
of folks on who've talked about

315
00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:31,680
messaging Left Right Center up down and

316
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,360
over I'm having more people on the show

317
00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:35,839
this year both who've already been on

318
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:38,760
and more people who are coming in where

319
00:12:35,839 --> 00:12:41,199
the Crux of everything is

320
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:44,360
around content and messaging and getting

321
00:12:41,199 --> 00:12:46,320
it right but none of them have yet to

322
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:50,600
say

323
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:54,279
that it needs to solve the business need

324
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:57,160
it needs to solve a business need and so

325
00:12:54,279 --> 00:12:58,399
let's just sit in that for a second and

326
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,440
talk about we talked a little bit about

327
00:12:58,399 --> 00:13:04,160
why that's hard

328
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:06,880
right um but why

329
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:09,160
why business need how is that not going

330
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:12,040
to like I understand it's going to help

331
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,680
in terms of connecting with leadership

332
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,760
and board members to potentially get the

333
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:17,399
money but I'm but my worry like I sort

334
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,440
of mentioned is aren't you going to get

335
00:13:17,399 --> 00:13:19,839
lost in the sauce because you're all

336
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,360
trying to essentially do the same thing

337
00:13:19,839 --> 00:13:22,600
which is save the company money to some

338
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,199
degree and isn't that really what it

339
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,639
comes down to it's like yes and no I

340
00:13:25,199 --> 00:13:28,920
mean you're gonna yeah you're going to

341
00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:30,519
have like your sort of big thing that

342
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,560
you you do like I don't know you're an

343
00:13:30,519 --> 00:13:34,880
identity you're a non-human identity

344
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:38,519
security provider versus an email

345
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:40,480
security provider yes you're solving the

346
00:13:38,519 --> 00:13:42,240
business risk but I think if you're

347
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,800
listening to your prospect and you've

348
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:48,560
done your research there are subtleties

349
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:51,000
in those needs so for

350
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:53,680
example let's take the in the Pharma

351
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,639
industry for example so people think

352
00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:57,720
Pharma they think fiser they think GSK

353
00:13:55,639 --> 00:14:00,639
they think critical

354
00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:03,560
IP so the confidentiality of that

355
00:14:00,639 --> 00:14:07,360
information is that's how the company

356
00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:09,320
makes money fizer does not make things

357
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:13,000
they formulate and then they send it out

358
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:15,160
to people to do they contract out the

359
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,279
human trials and they also contract out

360
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:22,360
the manufacturing so like within

361
00:14:18,279 --> 00:14:24,560
Pharma you have maybe a manufacturer for

362
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,279
whom confidentiality isn't necessarily A

363
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,040
need that's a patented formula it's

364
00:14:26,279 --> 00:14:30,519
available in the patent office but

365
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:33,600
availability is very high right if the

366
00:14:30,519 --> 00:14:37,160
line stops going vaccines stop getting

367
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:39,959
made so it's about understanding those

368
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:42,440
nuances and being able to talk to the

369
00:14:39,959 --> 00:14:44,880
person and the priorities that matter to

370
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:47,199
them so yes email security for the

371
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,560
manufacturing obviously probably less

372
00:14:47,199 --> 00:14:52,399
headcount because it's like back office

373
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:55,000
light versus you know operationally

374
00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:57,079
heavy maybe different for fizer but the

375
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,839
way they think about that problem is

376
00:14:57,079 --> 00:15:02,480
different to them right like I don't

377
00:14:59,839 --> 00:15:05,680
want a virus that stops the machines I

378
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:08,600
don't want ransomware that seizes my

379
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,360
proprietary information there's Nuance

380
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:13,000
there and I think the

381
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:15,800
biggest place I see this in terms of the

382
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,519
disjuncture between

383
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:20,800
marketing and

384
00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:24,040
messaging is just the floor of any

385
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:26,320
conference like if you go to RSA and you

386
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,920
spot the buzzwords and whatever which

387
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,720
we've all made a big deal about even

388
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,600
though we're sort of all per and victims

389
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,839
of it at the same time but if you if you

390
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,120
are shadowing a friend who's a

391
00:15:34,839 --> 00:15:39,000
ciso and they've actually seen something

392
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,480
interesting you can watch them in the

393
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,240
hallway they'll run into other friends

394
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,480
right RSA 40 50,000 people and

395
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,959
somebody's going to be like hey have you

396
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,319
seen anything interesting yeah I had a

397
00:15:45,959 --> 00:15:50,360
good conversation with so and so they're

398
00:15:48,319 --> 00:15:52,800
pretty new but it sounds like they could

399
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:56,040
help my problem that I'm having in terms

400
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:58,240
of the backlog in the in the log

401
00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:01,279
analysis or I think it can really

402
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:03,480
streamline our sock operations at no

403
00:16:01,279 --> 00:16:05,000
point will they use the buzzwords that

404
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,959
are on the placard they're not going to

405
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:10,040
be like Oh I'm really excited I found

406
00:16:06,959 --> 00:16:13,800
the nextg zero trust TurnKey whatever

407
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:16,000
the [ __ ] so like are you my question is

408
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,920
are you equipping your buyers to speak

409
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,199
in the language to their peers that you

410
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,519
would like to be spoken in because if

411
00:16:20,199 --> 00:16:24,800
you're not you're just what you do is

412
00:16:22,519 --> 00:16:27,920
you create a cognitive hurdle every

413
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:30,240
Prospect has to relearn your story MH

414
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,240
and you are stuck there re-explaining it

415
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,920
to everyone whereas if you could like

416
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,519
latch on that person's and you you know

417
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,600
give them a good customer experience and

418
00:16:36,519 --> 00:16:41,480
Implement they're going to go talk talk

419
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:45,199
for you it's so interesting because when

420
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:47,920
we talk about messaging in a way that

421
00:16:45,199 --> 00:16:49,519
people internally can regurgitate it

422
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:53,240
right from sales and marketing but we've

423
00:16:49,519 --> 00:16:55,880
never heard again it's gold George gold

424
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:58,680
we've never heard anybody talk about if

425
00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:03,480
saying it so simply that your audience

426
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:07,199
can then go share it and I think it's

427
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:11,079
because we Silo a lot of functions right

428
00:17:07,199 --> 00:17:14,559
so customer success in its best format

429
00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:16,520
early days is you just have somebody in

430
00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:18,919
the room kind of following your design

431
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,439
partners and your early customers and

432
00:17:18,919 --> 00:17:23,439
just like being their best friend

433
00:17:20,439 --> 00:17:26,000
they're there all the damn time customer

434
00:17:23,439 --> 00:17:27,679
success in its worst format is like just

435
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,520
collect payment for these invoices and

436
00:17:27,679 --> 00:17:31,240
hit them up 90 days before renewal see

437
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:34,440
if they'll buy

438
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,880
more but if even if you're doing the

439
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,320
best case scenario and you got this

440
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,880
kickass customer success person who's

441
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,760
taking a lot of notes like how well are

442
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:44,919
those notes getting fed back to

443
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:47,360
engineering and then product marketing

444
00:17:44,919 --> 00:17:49,559
and then like can you translate that

445
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:50,919
into sales enablement it's all the

446
00:17:49,559 --> 00:17:54,200
connective tissue it's not the

447
00:17:50,919 --> 00:17:56,120
superstars in each Silo it's how well

448
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,559
the pieces are connected it's the it's

449
00:17:56,120 --> 00:18:01,159
the through line it's the senu not the

450
00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:02,360
not the muscle itself that matters all

451
00:18:01,159 --> 00:18:05,080
right let's start breaking this down a

452
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:09,080
little bit because we're you're jumping

453
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:11,760
ahead giving the game away um in terms

454
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:14,200
of your story and not and and getting

455
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,520
that down against the business

456
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,240
challenges that companies have and being

457
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:21,480
able to speak to that so thoughtfully um

458
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:24,360
you gave one instance around Pharma it

459
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,320
sounds like knowing the industry of what

460
00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:27,640
you're going into is a really big

461
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,799
opportunity is there any other

462
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,919
opportunities in terms of how to

463
00:18:28,799 --> 00:18:33,240
position you're

464
00:18:29,919 --> 00:18:35,679
messaging that sort of find helps people

465
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,400
find that Nuance so they can go look at

466
00:18:35,679 --> 00:18:40,480
by industry what else you got well I

467
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:43,120
would say like you know account-based

468
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,240
marketing is a big halabaloo these days

469
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:47,440
right like how can you focus on the

470
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:50,400
accounts that are showing intent versus

471
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:52,240
just sort of like I got this list of the

472
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:55,080
Fortune 100 and we're just going to work

473
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:57,080
down from one to 100 right how can you

474
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,039
get smarter about where you put your

475
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,440
money and your time well I would say

476
00:18:59,039 --> 00:19:02,120
it's not just that account right because

477
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,840
we talk about account penetration but

478
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:05,440
from the sales perspective that's like

479
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,240
how many people are you emailing in that

480
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,480
company or reaching out to but I would

481
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,120
say that within those Industries like

482
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,440
you also need to learn who are the end

483
00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:15,440
users right

484
00:19:15,799 --> 00:19:19,080
because I can't tell you how many

485
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,720
startups I've seen that have like the

486
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:23,960
dark mode dashboard that's like

487
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:26,640
basically designed for the eso but

488
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:29,400
they're cool in a demo but like dayto

489
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:31,200
day I don't know a lot of them are

490
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,880
Hands-On keys in the tooling because

491
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:37,520
they're stuck in budget meetings and

492
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:39,559
audit stuff and whatever else they are

493
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,840
relying on their team leads and their

494
00:19:39,559 --> 00:19:45,000
operators and if you don't know what

495
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,559
those people care about I don't you will

496
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,280
never I mean great you can speak in the

497
00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:50,679
language of business but then you sort

498
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,520
of have to like push it down into the

499
00:19:50,679 --> 00:19:56,799
stuff that those people care about you

500
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:59,240
know is it are you the psyops team are

501
00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:02,120
you talking to detection engineer are

502
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,919
you talking to security Engineers appsec

503
00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,919
Engineers I mean that that matters and I

504
00:20:03,919 --> 00:20:07,400
think you need to go and meet those

505
00:20:05,919 --> 00:20:08,840
people and find them and those aren't

506
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,039
the people who necessarily get to

507
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,480
blackhe hat or RSA or whatever but

508
00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:15,360
they're at Regional conferences they're

509
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:17,520
at bsides they're at uh Issa chapter

510
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:19,559
meetings and you just got to get time on

511
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,840
the ground and and get to know them

512
00:20:19,559 --> 00:20:23,159
again it's the anthropology of your

513
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,960
customer or I don't so you could go

514
00:20:23,159 --> 00:20:27,640
spend some time in Reddit and please

515
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:31,760
don't say anything just listen for a

516
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:34,559
little bit yeah I love that and I think

517
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:36,520
it really helps because as you know we

518
00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:39,440
at Cyber marketing H when there was

519
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:41,159
actually a ciso very kind human who

520
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:44,080
stood up on you know in front of

521
00:20:41,159 --> 00:20:46,880
everybody and was very clear we are not

522
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,880
your audience please stop marketing to

523
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:52,159
us and I think yeah it's a yes and we to

524
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,720
your point of the business you know what

525
00:20:52,159 --> 00:20:55,000
business problem you solve that's still

526
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,919
going to come up through the ceso to get

527
00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:01,679
to the board to get to the money um but

528
00:20:58,919 --> 00:21:03,240
the relationship you need be building

529
00:21:01,679 --> 00:21:07,280
day to

530
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:08,960
day is that end user and understanding

531
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,919
where they are and how to connect with

532
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:14,400
them I think is key and the way and the

533
00:21:11,919 --> 00:21:15,919
problem you solve for them does come

534
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,799
back to I don't know you you tell me

535
00:21:15,919 --> 00:21:20,000
George but I would imagine that's where

536
00:21:17,799 --> 00:21:21,559
a little bit of the product

537
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,720
solution

538
00:21:21,559 --> 00:21:25,400
messaging it's also like that first

539
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,080
thing I said which is like you really

540
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,440
care about the product but they also

541
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,640
care about the process I've seen tools

542
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,799
that look

543
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:37,039
incredible but when you ask them like

544
00:21:33,799 --> 00:21:39,039
okay so walk me through this I've heard

545
00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:42,200
leaders say like this is going to like

546
00:21:39,039 --> 00:21:44,279
3x the amount of time my team has to do

547
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,440
this like this is like cool in the gang

548
00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:48,320
but like I can't do that to them like

549
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,159
I'm was gonna like they're all I'm

550
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:53,080
already being asked to do more with less

551
00:21:50,159 --> 00:21:55,679
why would I ask them to do more with

552
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,279
less time that they have right so that's

553
00:21:55,679 --> 00:21:59,279
pretty brutal but you wouldn't know that

554
00:21:57,279 --> 00:22:01,080
unless you spend time with with those SE

555
00:21:59,279 --> 00:22:03,440
operators and you talk to them and get

556
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,279
to know them um you know we interviewed

557
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,120
Merill Vernon shout out to her and her

558
00:22:05,279 --> 00:22:08,960
favorite thing was like does it export

559
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:10,440
to this file format and if it was a no

560
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,679
then it was like I can't use it because

561
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,320
it's going to take me three hours to

562
00:22:11,679 --> 00:22:16,360
convert your stuff to make it talk to

563
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:18,480
this other stuff again it could be super

564
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:20,200
cool it could be super slick smooth

565
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,960
whatever but then it could also look

566
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,400
like that and your operator gets in

567
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,360
there and it takes 10 clicks instead of

568
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:28,520
two it's like God no you're like going

569
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:31,120
to exponentially increase um but so like

570
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:33,600
all that uiux feedback that's customer

571
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:35,760
success that's like please tell me what

572
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:39,520
you hate or what you love about this

573
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:41,240
product and stuff like that and um yeah

574
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,840
I just think that's that's a missing

575
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,159
component like if you don't understand

576
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:48,840
the process side like your tool looks

577
00:22:45,159 --> 00:22:51,279
cool maybe maybe it's like some

578
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,760
revolutionary way to to do something but

579
00:22:51,279 --> 00:22:56,279
it doesn't integrate with like the

580
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,480
top part of the stack that most of your

581
00:22:56,279 --> 00:22:58,640
customers would use and you're going to

582
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,679
tell yourself well we're just going to

583
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:04,760
go to market and we'll build that as we

584
00:23:01,679 --> 00:23:06,840
go man you are going to spend 6 months

585
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,760
trying to convince people to buy a road

586
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:12,039
map right like if it's ready to go it's

587
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,480
ready to go I can't be like I'm gonna

588
00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:15,400
sell you on this and then you can wait

589
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,720
three months like no one's got time for

590
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,240
that no one can justify that kind of

591
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,360
spend these days like the budgets are

592
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:23,039
not again as heady as they were in the

593
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:25,279
zero interest rate period the buyers

594
00:23:23,039 --> 00:23:28,080
changed and their resources have

595
00:23:25,279 --> 00:23:29,840
definitely definitely changed all right

596
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,840
you've brought customer success now like

597
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:35,120
400 times let's get into it it sounds

598
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:38,480
like George your first hire after you

599
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:41,279
figure out your messaging and your story

600
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,559
needs to be a customer success person or

601
00:23:41,279 --> 00:23:45,799
maybe they are yes let me let me let me

602
00:23:43,559 --> 00:23:47,679
back up okay so you have there is a role

603
00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:49,279
for like a CMO head of marketing

604
00:23:47,679 --> 00:23:52,240
director of marketing

605
00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:56,120
but what I see

606
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:59,039
is uh we get the money we got seed we

607
00:23:56,120 --> 00:24:01,360
pay an agency to do our branding

608
00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:05,120
pay an agency to kind of build the

609
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:06,960
website uh we hire some inside sellers

610
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:09,720
or maybe we're just still doing founder

611
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:12,640
Le sales and then we hire like a junior

612
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:14,039
marketer to post on LinkedIn and

613
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,159
literally do all the things right

614
00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:16,400
because that's what they do is they hire

615
00:24:15,159 --> 00:24:20,760
the junior person you're like you're the

616
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:22,039
field person and the whatever right so I

617
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:25,039
would say

618
00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:27,080
like you know set the expectation you

619
00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:29,880
get the story right so yes you need to

620
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:33,360
bring in senior marketing person who

621
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:35,840
kind of has a sense of that stuff their

622
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:39,360
first role is not like download a lead

623
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:43,480
list in demand gen it's let me work with

624
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:45,679
you Founders Andor elt let's get this

625
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,880
story right let's get the messaging the

626
00:24:45,679 --> 00:24:49,720
sales

627
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:52,360
hire is that hybrid sales marketing

628
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:55,679
anthropology hire of customer success it

629
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:56,679
is that marketer's job to interface with

630
00:24:55,679 --> 00:24:58,880
that

631
00:24:56,679 --> 00:25:01,600
person all the time

632
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,320
be in the calls get the downloads

633
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,399
understand make sure that there's a

634
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,159
process built for that feedback to get

635
00:25:05,399 --> 00:25:09,279
into the engineering team whether it's

636
00:25:07,159 --> 00:25:12,399
jira tickets or whatever the

637
00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:14,640
hell and quarterback that that is the

638
00:25:12,399 --> 00:25:16,240
marketer's job in that very early days

639
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,880
and setting that expectation the 90-day

640
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:21,320
plan we're going to sort of build out to

641
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:23,320
here and then yes after you got that

642
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,399
flywheel going for customer success and

643
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,480
you're getting that feedback and you

644
00:25:24,399 --> 00:25:29,880
built that engine and you're and you're

645
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,720
again coaching your Founders on how to

646
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,840
because they're probably still in the

647
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,760
role of the CTO is really like a sales

648
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,159
engineer and the CEO is really like the

649
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,600
first seller cool and then like once you

650
00:25:39,159 --> 00:25:43,120
start to see that success and you want

651
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,919
to start scaling a sales team like

652
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:48,080
really really own that story and that

653
00:25:45,919 --> 00:25:50,600
dissemination and scaling that in terms

654
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:54,080
of training playbooks I hate the word

655
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,399
playbooks uh but I I understand what the

656
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,760
nomenclature

657
00:25:55,399 --> 00:26:00,120
means um but the sales enablement

658
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,640
program too and then you can and you're

659
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,760
sort of using that story to build the

660
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:07,120
brand because brand will eventually

661
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,000
create demand um but if your first step

662
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:10,919
is

663
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:13,840
like content syndication random lead

664
00:26:10,919 --> 00:26:16,799
list dial for dollars hire outsourced

665
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:20,159
agency Junior bdrs bang phones all day I

666
00:26:16,799 --> 00:26:22,720
mean I think that worked in 2016 but

667
00:26:20,159 --> 00:26:25,320
it's a uphill road now and again you

668
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,760
will pay for it later I have never

669
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,960
understood why you would want the first

670
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,559
interaction with your unknown brand that

671
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:36,200
no one cares

672
00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:37,760
about to be an outsourced Junior person

673
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,880
who's working three accounts they don't

674
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:43,120
care about you so now you have like two

675
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:45,240
degrees of not caring right to just like

676
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:47,200
spoof phone numbers and cold call Senior

677
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,679
leaders and be like hey I'm calling from

678
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,279
this company that you don't know

679
00:26:48,679 --> 00:26:52,159
anything about can I try to cram two

680
00:26:50,279 --> 00:26:53,559
minutes worth of content into 16 seconds

681
00:26:52,159 --> 00:26:56,360
before you hang up on

682
00:26:53,559 --> 00:26:58,880
me I don't like that brand I hate you

683
00:26:56,360 --> 00:27:00,279
now and I'm never going to talk to you

684
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,520
you know I might pay attention a few

685
00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:05,559
years later after I've heard some things

686
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:07,440
about you but like good God no way yeah

687
00:27:05,559 --> 00:27:11,000
so let me unpack some of the things that

688
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:13,399
you said because you yes so it sounds

689
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,760
like Founders

690
00:27:13,399 --> 00:27:17,320
generally once they get a seed round

691
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,720
their first seed round the first thing

692
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:22,000
they'll do from a marketing perspective

693
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,679
is get right into the visual aspect of

694
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,559
it they'll get a website up they'll get

695
00:27:23,679 --> 00:27:27,080
a little bit of branding they'll um

696
00:27:25,559 --> 00:27:28,440
maybe hire an agency for help with that

697
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,440
and then they'll get a junior person to

698
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:34,840
start and you're saying hold the phone

699
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:37,159
Be Kind Rewind let's take a step back

700
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:40,320
and start really with

701
00:27:37,159 --> 00:27:42,480
understanding your audience yeah if I

702
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:46,120
had time with them I would be like I'd

703
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:49,519
be like you had an incredible idea you

704
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:51,640
had an idea that was worth

705
00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:53,799
funding do you believe this can like

706
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,559
change the market yes do you believe

707
00:27:53,799 --> 00:28:00,320
it's absolutely necessary for cyber

708
00:27:55,559 --> 00:28:01,840
security yes cool let's unpack why and

709
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,559
then let's go talk to our design

710
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,600
partners and understand why they

711
00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:07,440
believed in you was it literally because

712
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,480
of VC was just like please test this

713
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,000
thing okay that's a data point or is it

714
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,679
because they were willing to go out on a

715
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,360
limb because they also understood the

716
00:28:13,679 --> 00:28:17,240
Gap that you were

717
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:19,320
Illuminating let's step a little bit

718
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,640
away from the technology how how is the

719
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,880
workflow in their team today what is it

720
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,760
doing for them what would they like to

721
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:29,120
see in the future like all that is

722
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:33,760
like very juicy data that's very

723
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:36,519
valuable right and uh this is

724
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:39,760
my uh counterintuitive marketing stance

725
00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:42,880
that might be anema to some but I don't

726
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:45,679
care if you have to schedule

727
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:49,000
brainstorming

728
00:28:45,679 --> 00:28:51,039
sessions you have already lost the plot

729
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,720
and I let me qualify that a

730
00:28:51,039 --> 00:28:54,399
brainstorming session where you sit down

731
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,320
and you just sort of pull ideas out of

732
00:28:54,399 --> 00:28:58,799
The Ether because marketing is about

733
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,840
creativity and ideas

734
00:28:58,799 --> 00:29:02,519
great but I would say like if you're

735
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,960
pulling ideas out of ether then you have

736
00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:05,159
stopped paying attention to the market

737
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,480
you were trying to

738
00:29:05,159 --> 00:29:10,760
attract or be a part of so I'm saying

739
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:14,320
there's room for creativity but it

740
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:16,760
better be from the seeds and the kernels

741
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,960
that are in both your prospects and the

742
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:23,640
people who are paying you right now if

743
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:25,320
you got ARR in the books you have ideas

744
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,200
but I don't think that we look at that

745
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:30,120
place for ideas we think oh well look

746
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,200
what these folks are doing what if we

747
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,840
could do that you don't have Sentinel

748
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:38,559
one money stop trying to be Sentinel

749
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:41,080
one you know yeah so not yet yeah yeah

750
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:44,960
creativity thrives in constraint and you

751
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:46,080
need to think that way and you need to

752
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,039
be a little

753
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,519
scrappier yeah but I also think the

754
00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:51,240
source of those ideas are different than

755
00:29:49,519 --> 00:29:55,320
where people think they

756
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:56,679
are yeah I me sorry just to just to

757
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,799
hammer home the point you and I talked

758
00:29:56,679 --> 00:30:00,320
at Cyber marketing con

759
00:29:58,799 --> 00:30:03,279
I think the vast majority of marketers

760
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,559
already know this I think most marketers

761
00:30:03,279 --> 00:30:06,840
live in

762
00:30:04,559 --> 00:30:08,399
2025 right they're talking to peers

763
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,039
they're sort of seeing best of breed

764
00:30:08,399 --> 00:30:12,279
they're probably reading industry trades

765
00:30:10,039 --> 00:30:14,480
they're just sort of a it's like in the

766
00:30:12,279 --> 00:30:15,720
industry to keep a pulse on things

767
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,039
they're trying to ideally they're

768
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,440
pulling ideas from other things like

769
00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:20,240
they're watching Super Bowl ads and

770
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,640
they're kind of like playing letting

771
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,960
things germinate letting things turn in

772
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,679
their head ideally they're looking over

773
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,919
the fence not just in cyber but other

774
00:30:24,679 --> 00:30:29,159
things

775
00:30:25,919 --> 00:30:31,799
CR I think the problem is that somebody

776
00:30:29,159 --> 00:30:34,600
else is in the ear of the founders and

777
00:30:31,799 --> 00:30:38,000
they're running a Playbook from 2018

778
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:43,360
2019 so I think it's really in those

779
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:46,360
early stages how well can you grab CEO

780
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:48,919
founder C's hand and be like here come

781
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:51,760
with me to the present let me show you

782
00:30:48,919 --> 00:30:53,440
why this is rather than please stop

783
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,600
listening to the person who last sold

784
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,080
something in

785
00:30:54,600 --> 00:31:00,039
2017 because I promise you the market is

786
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:02,840
changing there are three distinct forces

787
00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:05,600
at work Confluence of things that are

788
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,679
rapidly changing those things and uh

789
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,399
it's just it's not going to go back that

790
00:31:07,679 --> 00:31:13,679
way so stop trying to like copy pasta

791
00:31:10,399 --> 00:31:15,000
your old uh your old methodology so what

792
00:31:13,679 --> 00:31:17,919
are the three things what are the three

793
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,360
things in your in your visibility that

794
00:31:17,919 --> 00:31:20,720
have changed that marketers need to walk

795
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,679
over to the CEO and take their hand and

796
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,120
say these three things have changed and

797
00:31:22,679 --> 00:31:26,080
time to move with the buyer what are

798
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,600
those things in your perspec the

799
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:31,120
financial Outlook has changed

800
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:33,559
right so you can't just sort of get the

801
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,159
zero interest like the money is just is

802
00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:37,000
running but it's not as flush and as

803
00:31:35,159 --> 00:31:39,840
headyy as it used to be insane

804
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,840
valuations I can afford to burn urn a

805
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,440
sales team three times as long as I'm

806
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,880
just acquiring new logos right like logo

807
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:49,559
turn is a huge problem I think more VCS

808
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,279
are accurately looking at how long are

809
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:53,320
you retaining those customers how are

810
00:31:51,279 --> 00:31:55,480
you upselling what is the proportion do

811
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,600
you have like 10 million AR and eight of

812
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,519
it is like this one giant account and

813
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,880
you you're having hard time repeating

814
00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:03,960
success in other

815
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:07,279
accounts um the buyer as we've pointed

816
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:09,919
out has changed right so the the age the

817
00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:13,080
generation like how they interact has

818
00:32:09,919 --> 00:32:15,919
changed and the technology has changed

819
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:18,279
right like Google straight up will not

820
00:32:15,919 --> 00:32:21,240
let domains send more than 5,000 emails

821
00:32:18,279 --> 00:32:24,480
a day so you can't blast 30,000 without

822
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:26,360
your server getting listed and blocked

823
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:30,320
and that is a huge problem and also I

824
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:32,880
think we do not and have not reckoned

825
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:36,440
with the trauma that was the covid lift

826
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,799
and shift to remote work so like before

827
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,880
when I was in an office and I would get

828
00:32:37,799 --> 00:32:42,120
cold called I sort of had that context

829
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,480
like oh the [ __ ] this might happen like

830
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,919
somebody's going to call my office phone

831
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,600
and it's rarely going to be somebody in

832
00:32:44,919 --> 00:32:48,679
the office fine but once you're at home

833
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,080
and people are calling you and they're

834
00:32:48,679 --> 00:32:52,240
spoofing your area code and you're like

835
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:55,559
oh is it the school is it the

836
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,960
doctor no don't ever do that and that's

837
00:32:55,559 --> 00:32:58,639
what I hear repeatedly like people just

838
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:02,240
straight up do not answer the phone

839
00:32:58,639 --> 00:33:04,360
anymore um so all those three things are

840
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,600
conspiring to form what I call like the

841
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:09,039
SAS 3.0 era like we're just going to

842
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,240
have to adapt to that but if you're

843
00:33:09,039 --> 00:33:13,200
pulling in the tactics from 2.0 it's

844
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:16,799
going to be pretty hard I mean you might

845
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:18,519
brute force your success to some degree

846
00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:21,639
oh and also in terms of the buyer

847
00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:24,480
Behavior like just cesos talk more now

848
00:33:21,639 --> 00:33:28,039
right I mean the ca Society didn't exist

849
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:31,000
in 2018 and there are other associations

850
00:33:28,039 --> 00:33:33,279
other communities WhatsApp groups I have

851
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,080
people who show me their inbox and

852
00:33:33,279 --> 00:33:38,159
they're like this vendor has emailed me

853
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:40,320
60 times in the last three months I have

854
00:33:38,159 --> 00:33:42,279
blocked their domain and told my team we

855
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,360
will never do business with them just

856
00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:47,039
because they find the Outreach abusive

857
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,799
so that poor that poor sales rep or

858
00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:51,000
account executive has no idea that

859
00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:52,240
they've burned their entire territory

860
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:56,120
because they've all been talking and

861
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:58,919
they're like that guy sucks you know and

862
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:02,279
um I just think you now need to think

863
00:33:58,919 --> 00:34:04,440
very carefully about how are you being

864
00:34:02,279 --> 00:34:07,240
spoken about in the communities you're

865
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,679
not in because they all talk and I would

866
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,639
say you know I know we're talking a lot

867
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:13,480
about cyber um and that's a lot of the

868
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:14,919
folks who are here I see you Danny wolf

869
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:18,200
nice to see you Michael oblanc thanks

870
00:34:14,919 --> 00:34:20,560
for joining us um I do want to call out

871
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:24,040
that this is across the board in terms

872
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:28,119
of B2B Tech especially in SAS like the

873
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:29,359
the all the different um sea level have

874
00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:30,639
their own communities now and they're

875
00:34:29,359 --> 00:34:31,919
all sharing what's working and what's

876
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:35,159
not and they're all in the boats

877
00:34:31,919 --> 00:34:37,679
together so being very intentional about

878
00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:41,679
how we go to market is so crucial now

879
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:45,960
than than ever and I do think that

880
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:47,720
marketers get it where you and I talked

881
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,440
and what I think is so critical about

882
00:34:47,720 --> 00:34:51,040
the conversation is that they get it but

883
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,760
they don't know yet how to get there or

884
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:56,599
how to execute it and there's this Chasm

885
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,359
of like I get it the buyers changed they

886
00:34:56,599 --> 00:35:01,760
has less resources we have to talk about

887
00:34:58,359 --> 00:35:04,640
business outcomes great but but how and

888
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,359
so let's talk about let's get to those

889
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,400
let's let's pull this part for people

890
00:35:06,359 --> 00:35:09,040
and actually make them feel like they

891
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,920
can go do the thing all right we've

892
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,359
given up 2.0 George we get it we're here

893
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:16,200
for 3.0 now tell me how on Earth to get

894
00:35:13,359 --> 00:35:17,920
after it and so the first step is to

895
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,520
figure out your messaging and from the

896
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:23,839
conversations we've had it's very much

897
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:26,520
about hiring somebody who can help you

898
00:35:23,839 --> 00:35:28,359
get after it you as the marketer don't

899
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,200
have to know oh this was such a hard

900
00:35:28,359 --> 00:35:33,119
lesson for me recently I'm a figure it

901
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:35,720
outer I've grown up as a figure it outer

902
00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:37,480
right I will fig I will turn and turn

903
00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:39,359
and turn until and iterate itate iterate

904
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,839
till I get the thing right we don't have

905
00:35:39,359 --> 00:35:42,400
that kind of time money or resource

906
00:35:40,839 --> 00:35:43,720
anymore right so I have to go find

907
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,800
somebody who knows how to do the thing

908
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:50,079
to tell me how to go do it now and

909
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:52,079
so I I think that was such a great sort

910
00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:54,599
of aha moment when we were talking of

911
00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:56,200
like don't don't feel like you have to

912
00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:58,240
be the one to go cultivate this

913
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:02,079
messaging there's people out there

914
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:03,960
people who how to do it right and it's

915
00:36:02,079 --> 00:36:06,680
interesting because who you think this

916
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:09,960
person should be is not who people might

917
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:12,079
think it should be so who is that higher

918
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:15,040
that's going to come in and help you

919
00:36:12,079 --> 00:36:17,800
define your story that's going to then

920
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:22,960
fuel everything else from that point

921
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:27,119
on yeah well I think

922
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:28,800
we don't put enough value on outside

923
00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:30,839
perspective

924
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,800
right and like that sort of tunnel

925
00:36:30,839 --> 00:36:36,319
vision that comes from being on the

926
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:39,160
product side is the thing that is our

927
00:36:36,319 --> 00:36:40,720
Achilles heel cuz of course like if

928
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,280
you're hired and you're like there for

929
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:44,480
the startup ride and you want to build

930
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,960
with the team like it's very it's just

931
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,880
so easy to to lose air in the room right

932
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:52,000
if just you're just all talking to one

933
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:54,079
another so I do think again if you think

934
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,599
of the first CMO or the first marketing

935
00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:58,160
hire as kind of the quarterback one of

936
00:36:56,599 --> 00:37:00,760
those things is you bring in your

937
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:03,040
outside strength and conditioning coach

938
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,960
which might be a Communications

939
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:08,800
specialist because it's your job to

940
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:11,040
manage up like look this is why this

941
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:14,560
matters this is why brand matters

942
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:17,640
because if we just have the same shield

943
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:20,480
and red and whatever else language that

944
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:23,200
everyone else has like uh you know

945
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,520
defend your system or die like it's just

946
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,520
not going to work like how are we

947
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:29,079
possibly Gonna Stand Out okay great so

948
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:31,880
you're on board with what brand means

949
00:37:29,079 --> 00:37:34,040
and like really talk about that and then

950
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,800
I'm going to bring somebody in to work

951
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:39,359
with us so that we have a clear story

952
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:42,280
because I can use that to take you to

953
00:37:39,359 --> 00:37:44,000
the moon right I'm not just doing this

954
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,680
because I like to sit around the

955
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,440
campfire and sing kumaya like we're

956
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,319
going to do this because it's necessary

957
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,880
for

958
00:37:48,319 --> 00:37:54,319
Success you are you founder CEO are

959
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,000
going to be really frustrated when we

960
00:37:54,319 --> 00:37:58,160
get a sales team in here and you listen

961
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,680
in on a call and they're prom in things

962
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,400
that we don't do or they're saying

963
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,599
things that you're like where did they

964
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,480
get that right so I need to take what is

965
00:38:04,599 --> 00:38:09,839
in your brain and if you got to praise

966
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:11,480
them go do that ego massage like you

967
00:38:09,839 --> 00:38:13,640
have the juice but eventually Your Role

968
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,640
changes you go out of founder lead sales

969
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,599
and you got to like get this rocket ship

970
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,839
going and I have to take what's in your

971
00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:22,119
brain and put it in others so I need

972
00:38:18,839 --> 00:38:24,200
that storytelling coach um I got a lot

973
00:38:22,119 --> 00:38:26,280
of friends who are former actors who are

974
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,960
doing this work um there are a lot of

975
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,800
communications Consultants but you need

976
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,839
to look at the ones that have helped

977
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,560
craft those stories not just like train

978
00:38:31,839 --> 00:38:35,720
them to be a keynote speaker or whatever

979
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:38,359
that's a kind of different kind of Coach

980
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:40,720
but somebody who can like really I guess

981
00:38:38,359 --> 00:38:43,359
put your heels to the fire really just

982
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:46,960
ask yourself the question like talk to

983
00:38:43,359 --> 00:38:49,119
me so what why so what and like if you

984
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,800
cannot thread if you can't answer those

985
00:38:49,119 --> 00:38:52,520
questions it's a huge problem and then

986
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,480
once you have the answers you're

987
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,040
checking back with your design Partners

988
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,880
how are you talking about us and you

989
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,119
just sort of like pull all that in and

990
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,480
you got to put that in the cauldron and

991
00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:02,520
you got to test it and you got to go

992
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,240
back to those customers look if I told

993
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:07,520
you we did this does that cohere with

994
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:09,319
your experience of our product great and

995
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,599
then like hey do you have someone else

996
00:39:09,319 --> 00:39:13,040
you could uh recommend another peer that

997
00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:14,960
we could talk to and it's not to sell to

998
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,480
them it's like hey we've been working

999
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,319
with so and so and we are doing and

1000
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,240
you're testing you're constantly testing

1001
00:39:19,319 --> 00:39:22,920
that message and you just you got to get

1002
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:25,200
that I

1003
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,440
I I can tell you I mean I think we all

1004
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,200
know the consequences but it's very

1005
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,760
clear you bring in a sales team they

1006
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:34,760
won't do it the VCS will complain you'll

1007
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,480
turn them out oh it's so expensive um

1008
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:40,000
you'll pay for the Rebrand you'll redo

1009
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:42,079
the site $400,000 later like it can just

1010
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,839
be so costly and it feels performative

1011
00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:45,880
and it feels like oh marketing is doing

1012
00:39:43,839 --> 00:39:48,440
something but God that's expensive and

1013
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:51,000
you're eating away at time so Joel Ben

1014
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:53,680
is GNA be on tea time in just a few

1015
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,440
short weeks here and so he will yeah so

1016
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:58,640
he's one of he was at Cyber marketing

1017
00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:00,200
con he did a wonderful workshop and

1018
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,119
yeah he's going to sort of unpack that

1019
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,440
here with me on the show for more people

1020
00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:05,359
so if you're still sort of scratching

1021
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,599
your head of like cool I could bring

1022
00:40:05,359 --> 00:40:08,920
somebody in but I still don't understand

1023
00:40:06,599 --> 00:40:11,200
what it is that they do wait for that

1024
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,000
show he's going to show us exactly what

1025
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,040
he does to help us and it's great he

1026
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,480
uses like an Arista tilian framework

1027
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:20,079
which is to say that messaging has not

1028
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,680
changed in 2,000 years but it's still

1029
00:40:20,079 --> 00:40:23,720
it's still effective like it's still

1030
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,920
effective yeah Joel's great he's awesome

1031
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:27,920
he's gonna bring his cards so yeah

1032
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,359
that's it's really good that he did that

1033
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,599
too it makes it very accessible it does

1034
00:40:30,359 --> 00:40:34,880
it does so stay tuned on that I know

1035
00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:36,760
that we probably still feel like this is

1036
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,280
the messaging is the hardest piece and

1037
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,200
we're all being very clear that you

1038
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,640
don't have to solve it and that there

1039
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,440
are experts and you're going to get to

1040
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,240
see one of those folks action and and

1041
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,760
like like you think at Richard feinman

1042
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:49,319
right the quantum physicist who was very

1043
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,400
famous for being able

1044
00:40:49,319 --> 00:40:55,480
to distill like complex subatomic

1045
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,839
particle physics to like high schoolers

1046
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,440
and his technique was like he would

1047
00:40:56,839 --> 00:41:01,680
explain in very plain language and then

1048
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,880
he would like basically write it down I

1049
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,560
think his litmus test was a 12-year-old

1050
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:09,359
I like to think about like just call it

1051
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,359
the mom test like can you explain what

1052
00:41:09,359 --> 00:41:13,079
you do to your mom and yes you might

1053
00:41:11,359 --> 00:41:14,680
need to explain like non-human

1054
00:41:13,079 --> 00:41:16,000
identities to your mom but you got to be

1055
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,000
like hey you know how we think of

1056
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:20,079
identities as people and you know how

1057
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,319
there's like that printer over there

1058
00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:24,839
well like when computers anyway can you

1059
00:41:22,319 --> 00:41:25,960
do that exercise and uh then he would

1060
00:41:24,839 --> 00:41:27,640
write it down and he would like go

1061
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,000
through and strip out any anything that

1062
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,880
felt like a little exrain just keep

1063
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,880
testing it keep testing it and his idea

1064
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,119
was that you have not truly mastered a

1065
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,000
topic until you can explain it to a

1066
00:41:36,119 --> 00:41:39,480
12-year-old I think everyone listening

1067
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,839
to this has had the experience if you

1068
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,880
were in college and you had a brilliant

1069
00:41:41,839 --> 00:41:45,960
professor and they had this story

1070
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,640
prestigious reputation and you're like I

1071
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,040
don't know what they're talking about

1072
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,560
because they couldn't pull it down to

1073
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,920
101 they were really good at high Theory

1074
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,280
they're really good talking to their

1075
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,760
peers but you just like glazing over

1076
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,280
because they could not get it to your

1077
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,839
undergradu uate level but then you might

1078
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,520
have had professors who like it clicked

1079
00:42:00,839 --> 00:42:05,000
like that's what you loved you took that

1080
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:08,599
101 class and you were hooked and that

1081
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:10,319
is that is a very valuable skill yes to

1082
00:42:08,599 --> 00:42:11,960
Great examples and all things we can

1083
00:42:10,319 --> 00:42:15,280
start it doesn't mean that you you

1084
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:17,960
shouldn't understand how they do the

1085
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:20,800
process or or go about it or being able

1086
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:23,720
to test it yourself and trying it

1087
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:25,720
bringing an expert bring in an expert

1088
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:27,720
100% because you're because you're still

1089
00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:29,559
going to be

1090
00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:31,280
quarterbacking right like we talked

1091
00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:33,880
earlier all that senu building the

1092
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,400
connections between like that's a lot of

1093
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,559
work that's a lot of process building

1094
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:40,280
it's a lot of Sops and whatever you want

1095
00:42:37,559 --> 00:42:42,520
to call it so yes to your point Carrie

1096
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:45,800
you can't be the person micromanaging

1097
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:48,480
the messaging Workshop that's a lot you

1098
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,800
can't be everything yep totally all

1099
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,160
right let's talk about the next piece

1100
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,200
we've we've talked about it in terms of

1101
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,000
the customer success so now you bring in

1102
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,720
as the marketing leader you got you're

1103
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,559
getting your branding dial it in now

1104
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:00,440
you're one of bringing customer success

1105
00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:02,760
and you mentioned in passing sort of

1106
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:05,160
what the ideal scenario is for that

1107
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,960
customer success person does can you

1108
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,760
just relay that for us one more time and

1109
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,920
how the marketer sort of plugs into that

1110
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:13,359
to bring it home back into the branding

1111
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:16,280
piece yeah early customer success and I

1112
00:43:13,359 --> 00:43:19,000
think it scales out also is just they

1113
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,839
got to be your customer's best friend

1114
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:24,359
you know later on when you're bigger

1115
00:43:20,839 --> 00:43:27,160
it's going to be more like qbrs and

1116
00:43:24,359 --> 00:43:28,400
annual reviews but they need to have

1117
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,680
regular touch points with the customer

1118
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,079
in the early days when it's design

1119
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,440
Partners it's really like you're sitting

1120
00:43:31,079 --> 00:43:34,200
in there with the product team and

1121
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,680
you're like what do you like about the

1122
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,960
ux what if we did it this way and and

1123
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:41,520
then but that's a lot of engineering and

1124
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:44,280
a lot of product for customer success

1125
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:48,240
I'm very interested in like how would

1126
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:52,359
you describe what we do how would you

1127
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:55,160
talk to a PE about us what would you say

1128
00:43:52,359 --> 00:43:56,800
about your experience if they're like it

1129
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,839
was necessary cuz we had this data

1130
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,599
problem but like the UI is super clui

1131
00:43:58,839 --> 00:44:04,160
like that's a problem let's go fix the

1132
00:44:00,599 --> 00:44:06,040
UI you know um implementation took a

1133
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,720
really long time I would really like

1134
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:11,240
that to be more of an API than this like

1135
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:13,520
hard a I don't know whatever but you

1136
00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:15,200
need to know that and you need to sort

1137
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,400
of constantly be iterating that but

1138
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,200
you're really trying to ask what Danny

1139
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,960
is very good at is those open-ended

1140
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,480
questions and just get him talking

1141
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,800
because when they start expressing

1142
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,160
themselves whether it's like I really

1143
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,200
love this I think you guys are really on

1144
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,520
to something or whatever like those are

1145
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,280
the Nuggets those are things you got to

1146
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:34,640
pull at and you got to save them for

1147
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:37,520
later yes and with uh you know with AI

1148
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,200
it's like a little easier now to take to

1149
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,000
aggregate those conversations and be

1150
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,839
able to then pull those nuggets out and

1151
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:46,200
and really form a story across the board

1152
00:44:43,839 --> 00:44:47,440
so you know be intentional with your

1153
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,599
with you know whoever you're

1154
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,760
interviewing that you're recording it

1155
00:44:48,599 --> 00:44:54,280
for these purposes um but that's sort of

1156
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:58,240
just yeah my my idea yeah ideal customer

1157
00:44:54,280 --> 00:45:01,040
success psychology majors soci ology

1158
00:44:58,240 --> 00:45:06,040
people who observe cuz that's what you

1159
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:07,720
need them to do uh okay so you got your

1160
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,520
your your branding messaging is just

1161
00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:12,000
about figured out you have your customer

1162
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,480
success person relaying information so

1163
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,800
you're honing and iterating both the

1164
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:17,400
product and the messaging now what all

1165
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,359
right so now you've if you've got a

1166
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,520
brand to stand on or some sort of

1167
00:45:19,359 --> 00:45:22,920
identity that's what that marketing hire

1168
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:26,040
is really going to work at whether it's

1169
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:30,200
Outsourcing some stuff to an agency like

1170
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:31,880
just creation or whatever some PR you

1171
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,599
know getting your people speaking in the

1172
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:36,680
places that matter great the next

1173
00:45:34,599 --> 00:45:38,480
marketing harder is product marketing

1174
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,079
because then you got to start you will

1175
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,520
have gotten through the design partner

1176
00:45:40,079 --> 00:45:44,319
phase and now you need to start being

1177
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:47,720
able to translate some of the technical

1178
00:45:44,319 --> 00:45:49,960
stuff into the language of this The

1179
00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:51,200
Operators who will be using your tooling

1180
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,800
and then eventually the leader and the

1181
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,119
product marketer understands those two

1182
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,760
differences like this is what I would

1183
00:45:54,119 --> 00:45:57,720
tell the executive buyer this is what I

1184
00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:00,640
would tell the operator

1185
00:45:57,720 --> 00:46:02,960
what can we create around that that's

1186
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,960
comp more compelling than I mean yes

1187
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,640
sure you can use a PDF or a one sheeter

1188
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,559
or whatever but are there more exciting

1189
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:12,599
ways to to think about how we get that

1190
00:46:09,559 --> 00:46:14,559
information across um and then like you

1191
00:46:12,599 --> 00:46:16,280
know if the product marketer isn't

1192
00:46:14,559 --> 00:46:17,760
comfortable with social or whatever I

1193
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,240
mean you're at least getting the ideas

1194
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,359
that can then again quarterback rooll

1195
00:46:20,240 --> 00:46:24,599
let me take your great ideas I hear you

1196
00:46:22,359 --> 00:46:26,440
saying this about technical buyers cool

1197
00:46:24,599 --> 00:46:28,319
let me go feed it over to this creative

1198
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,880
agency or I don't know maybe you have a

1199
00:46:28,319 --> 00:46:32,880
different content Market or like really

1200
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,000
like push up against the limits of of

1201
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,240
where you feel comfortable but you will

1202
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,760
only know where those limits are because

1203
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:39,079
you have that brand right like there are

1204
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:42,240
things that torque can do because

1205
00:46:39,079 --> 00:46:43,880
they've established that brand that you

1206
00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:46,119
know Crow strike ain't ever going to do

1207
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:48,000
because they got a different brand but

1208
00:46:46,119 --> 00:46:51,000
they know where those limits are because

1209
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,319
they've done that work both both those

1210
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,680
two particular

1211
00:46:52,319 --> 00:46:55,880
companies where does video fit into this

1212
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,359
do you think in terms of those great

1213
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,200
ideas from a marketing persp perspective

1214
00:46:57,359 --> 00:47:02,160
are you seeing video become more and

1215
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:04,960
more important or is is with a technical

1216
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:07,599
audience those those more technical

1217
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:10,440
papers the portals those sort of places

1218
00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:11,440
for technical content is where it's at

1219
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,520
what's what are you sort of seeing in

1220
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:17,319
the landscape these days of of how

1221
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:21,599
technical audiences are absorbing that

1222
00:47:17,319 --> 00:47:23,880
content yeah death to white papers so I

1223
00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:25,680
mean maybe somebody says give me a white

1224
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,960
paper I don't know anyone who says that

1225
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,359
anymore does anyone read white papers do

1226
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,480
you want to read a white paper anyone

1227
00:47:29,359 --> 00:47:32,880
got time for that I mean maybe it's in

1228
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,319
an open browser tab that you're never

1229
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:37,079
going to get to until your computer

1230
00:47:34,319 --> 00:47:38,880
crashes but you have to think about like

1231
00:47:37,079 --> 00:47:40,520
we talked about the buyer is changing so

1232
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,680
that also means like how do you want to

1233
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,960
consume

1234
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:46,079
information um so yes I think video is

1235
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,440
very important I think video is

1236
00:47:46,079 --> 00:47:49,480
extremely important when it comes to

1237
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,119
like case studies if you can get your

1238
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,200
customers doing the talking rather than

1239
00:47:51,119 --> 00:47:55,160
just some block quote like ceso Fortune

1240
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,960
500 said this if you can get them

1241
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,800
talking about the problem that they were

1242
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,359
facing oh my God that is that is the

1243
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:03,160
gold and we have more video creation

1244
00:48:01,359 --> 00:48:04,800
resources than ever before right I mean

1245
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:08,319
look look we're on streamyard the

1246
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:11,079
Riverside there's all sorts um it's

1247
00:48:08,319 --> 00:48:13,240
really like the level of lift is very

1248
00:48:11,079 --> 00:48:14,599
low today compared to what it was when I

1249
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:16,599
started I mean you definitely had to go

1250
00:48:14,599 --> 00:48:17,680
to like a specialized agency and Video

1251
00:48:16,599 --> 00:48:23,119
cost a

1252
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:24,920
fortune um I think that uh videos I mean

1253
00:48:23,119 --> 00:48:26,960
I've seen a lot of Brands doing really

1254
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,280
good work in terms of trying to get

1255
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:31,559
regular stuff out there whether it's

1256
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:34,760
like User Group content let's talk about

1257
00:48:31,559 --> 00:48:37,400
this thing this week um to the stuff

1258
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,720
like Anvil logic is doing with uh you

1259
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,400
know trying to talk directly to

1260
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:43,319
detection Engineers I I think that's

1261
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,079
really great it's like trying to engage

1262
00:48:43,319 --> 00:48:48,079
that audience in a format that matters

1263
00:48:45,079 --> 00:48:50,880
to them I think in terms of like white

1264
00:48:48,079 --> 00:48:52,400
papers and printouts and stuff it's like

1265
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,160
people will ask for an architecture

1266
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:57,240
diagram always like literally how does

1267
00:48:54,160 --> 00:49:00,359
this work great but like

1268
00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:02,920
you paying a copywriter to

1269
00:49:00,359 --> 00:49:06,680
write 3,000 words where you casually

1270
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:10,440
slip in like I fix all the problems like

1271
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:13,240
no nobody's doing that and they're not

1272
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:14,799
signing up to download them either yeah

1273
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:18,400
they're definitely not downloading them

1274
00:49:14,799 --> 00:49:21,480
leads are GNA be a struggle um if not

1275
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,640
already if not I mean I think that's a

1276
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:26,000
whole different conversation we don't

1277
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:28,079
have time for that uh I promise you the

1278
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,319
sorry content syndication folks when you

1279
00:49:28,079 --> 00:49:31,400
say that you're going to get me in front

1280
00:49:29,319 --> 00:49:33,200
of people what's happening is sure

1281
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,520
you've slapped it up somewhere and I saw

1282
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,440
something and I randomly filled out a

1283
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,720
form and then you get the lead that's

1284
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,720
like these people are interested in

1285
00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:41,920
speaking to you what that means is your

1286
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:44,319
white paper is an open tab one of a

1287
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:46,240
thousand sitting in a browser window

1288
00:49:44,319 --> 00:49:48,040
that they forgot to actually read that's

1289
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:49,440
probably what's really happening there

1290
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,599
so and then you call them up and they're

1291
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,920
like I so you read our white paper and

1292
00:49:50,599 --> 00:49:56,480
you're like who that's that experience

1293
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:58,040
ask any marketer I mean I don't know why

1294
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,200
we keep doing the same things over and

1295
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:03,240
over expecting a different

1296
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:05,200
result I've only seen one report I don't

1297
00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:06,680
have many at my disposal but I I have

1298
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:09,280
seen one report where content

1299
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:12,200
syndication does work top of funnel but

1300
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:14,079
they had an unbelievable nurture engine

1301
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:16,400
behind it so sales was not immediately

1302
00:50:14,079 --> 00:50:19,119
picking up the phone and calling these

1303
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,680
people they had a way of communicating

1304
00:50:19,119 --> 00:50:23,359
that was them working through a nurture

1305
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:26,200
sequence that was educating and then it

1306
00:50:23,359 --> 00:50:28,880
was ending up in sales so I do think

1307
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,480
that there we are do we do need some

1308
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,319
mechanism to be able to connect with the

1309
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,920
right people who are interested in what

1310
00:50:32,319 --> 00:50:36,520
we have to say but there has to be I got

1311
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:39,240
on my high horse in one of

1312
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:42,040
my uh LinkedIn posts this week about it

1313
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:44,319
of like the I think the seller's going

1314
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,119
to change drastically in regards to

1315
00:50:44,319 --> 00:50:47,680
selling the the seller can't just show

1316
00:50:46,119 --> 00:50:49,280
up to sell anymore they have to show up

1317
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:51,400
to cultivate relationships in a really

1318
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:53,880
thoughtful and meaningful way and if the

1319
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,799
white paper is the open door to or the

1320
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:59,280
download the the contents indication is

1321
00:50:55,799 --> 00:51:02,240
the open door to start having those

1322
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,520
conversations not meetings to understand

1323
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:05,640
where people are and what they need and

1324
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:08,160
back to your point of

1325
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:10,319
listening then I think there's a point

1326
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,960
for it but no if you're just doing

1327
00:51:10,319 --> 00:51:14,400
content edication immediately call up

1328
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,000
and start selling you you are yeah and

1329
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,040
once you start getting those indicators

1330
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,319
like a particular account has gone

1331
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,119
through several steps and they're like

1332
00:51:19,319 --> 00:51:23,240
looking like they're more interested and

1333
00:51:21,119 --> 00:51:25,280
somebody's salivating over it like they

1334
00:51:23,240 --> 00:51:27,480
better be doing their research on that

1335
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,760
account like yeah you know when I

1336
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,520
interviewed uh Cecil pan he says like

1337
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:34,319
when the people get to me sometimes I

1338
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:37,040
ask them like how did you even reach me

1339
00:51:34,319 --> 00:51:39,040
and honestly those the bests sellers are

1340
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,720
like well I did my research I knew who

1341
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,839
on your team was in charge of this

1342
00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:45,640
particular function and I got to know

1343
00:51:42,839 --> 00:51:48,319
them and I saw who they report to I mean

1344
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:50,720
it is the anthropology of your customer

1345
00:51:48,319 --> 00:51:53,559
that is a kinship network if ever there

1346
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:55,319
was one in the in the academic parlament

1347
00:51:53,559 --> 00:51:57,720
it's just an organizational framework

1348
00:51:55,319 --> 00:51:59,359
it's the same thing a same damn thing

1349
00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:01,119
where's the power sit and how is it

1350
00:51:59,359 --> 00:52:03,599
dispersed all right well let's talk

1351
00:52:01,119 --> 00:52:06,079
about this because now that you've hired

1352
00:52:03,599 --> 00:52:09,240
the product marketer the next step is

1353
00:52:06,079 --> 00:52:11,040
that selling team right of like okay now

1354
00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:13,440
we can get out and really talk about

1355
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:15,680
this thing so talk to me about I think

1356
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:19,119
we we started to pull it apart but the

1357
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:21,880
ideal seller in your standpoint is that

1358
00:52:19,119 --> 00:52:23,559
person who's yeah that's the relation

1359
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:25,720
yeah the relationship selling so like

1360
00:52:23,559 --> 00:52:27,760
the classic way is let me hire the big

1361
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:30,240
gun cro they'll bring in all their past

1362
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,200
buddies and they're all Enterprise

1363
00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:34,000
Sellers and they're ready to go cuz they

1364
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,040
used to sell into Goldman Sachs or

1365
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,640
whatever and if you think Goldman Sachs

1366
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:41,400
is going to buy your series a whatever

1367
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:42,720
the hell good luck also the S cycle so

1368
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,400
long I mean maybe they will but it's

1369
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:47,079
going to be an 18month sales cycle come

1370
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:49,040
on let's do it faster also those reps

1371
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:51,280
are going to expect a lot of stuff and

1372
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:54,040
you have to cultivate a sales team

1373
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:56,000
that's also a that are also Builders if

1374
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,720
they come in and they're like cool show

1375
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,920
me the drive that's got the case studies

1376
00:52:57,720 --> 00:53:00,359
and the whatever and then they're ready

1377
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,760
to go and you don't have any of that

1378
00:53:00,359 --> 00:53:04,520
stuff because you frequently don't at

1379
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:08,040
that stage they tend to get frustrated

1380
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:10,040
or whatever so you have to really vet

1381
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,640
the sales folks that like build those

1382
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:14,160
relationships and they just have a

1383
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:17,240
constant disciplined level of activity

1384
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:19,000
because you can't be the person who's

1385
00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:21,280
got like three Deals in the pipeline and

1386
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:24,480
you're like that's it for the quarter

1387
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:26,040
and then something trips the last month

1388
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,799
because you know all that outside of

1389
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,599
your control and then suddenly they're

1390
00:53:27,799 --> 00:53:31,319
not hitting their numbers you got to s

1391
00:53:29,599 --> 00:53:33,280
be constantly moving constantly

1392
00:53:31,319 --> 00:53:35,799
circulating constantly asking those

1393
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,400
questions getting out um and so I think

1394
00:53:35,799 --> 00:53:38,799
when you're interviewing that sales team

1395
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,160
what you're looking for is essentially

1396
00:53:38,799 --> 00:53:42,720
an entrepreneurial Spirit like are they

1397
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:44,680
willing to get in the car and drive over

1398
00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:46,280
to the Issa chapter meeting and sit in

1399
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,760
the back and not Pitch anybody but maybe

1400
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,839
they paid for the coffee and the donuts

1401
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:52,280
and they just start putting time on the

1402
00:53:49,839 --> 00:53:54,799
ground and and I I'm a big proponent of

1403
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:57,240
every rep having kind of their own

1404
00:53:54,799 --> 00:53:58,760
little field budget and you can of

1405
00:53:57,240 --> 00:54:00,280
course vet how they're spending it

1406
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:03,359
please don't spend it all on a golf

1407
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:07,079
outing but you know like you need to

1408
00:54:03,359 --> 00:54:09,040
have uh you need to have that Hunter uh

1409
00:54:07,079 --> 00:54:11,960
and farmer Spirit right it's going to

1410
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:13,520
take time and they got to be curious

1411
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:16,960
that's super hard it's super hard to

1412
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:19,319
find because you can't train curiosity

1413
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:21,359
I've tried you sort of either are or you

1414
00:54:19,319 --> 00:54:22,680
aren't um and you so you're going to

1415
00:54:21,359 --> 00:54:24,599
have to look for that sales team that

1416
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,599
can do that you know and

1417
00:54:24,599 --> 00:54:27,760
also they're supportive because if

1418
00:54:26,599 --> 00:54:29,599
they're curious they want to know that

1419
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,319
story that you've built and you want to

1420
00:54:29,599 --> 00:54:33,440
train them and that product marketing

1421
00:54:31,319 --> 00:54:36,200
team is also going to be part of the uh

1422
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:39,839
sales enablement

1423
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:42,040
process yes to all of this yes no it is

1424
00:54:39,839 --> 00:54:43,480
a lot but I think it's just so nice so

1425
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,400
my last question for you George because

1426
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:47,280
we could go all day and I as much as I

1427
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:50,359
would love that we could Joe Rogan this

1428
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:54,799
it would be great but but we got jobs

1429
00:54:50,359 --> 00:54:56,599
scary we got jobs jobs we got jobs um my

1430
00:54:54,799 --> 00:54:58,400
last question for you around this is

1431
00:54:56,599 --> 00:55:00,520
then if you're not bringing in the sales

1432
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:02,599
team Until the End essentially and

1433
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:04,359
scaling that up then how are you selling

1434
00:55:02,599 --> 00:55:07,480
throughout are you or are you putting

1435
00:55:04,359 --> 00:55:10,960
sales kind of on hold until you get the

1436
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:12,720
yeah I on hold I think I think you are

1437
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,000
probably the transition from the founder

1438
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:18,200
lead sales into sales is going to be a

1439
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:21,039
very close shadowing of your first two

1440
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:22,119
sellers right and they're those curious

1441
00:55:21,039 --> 00:55:23,280
Hunters that they got that

1442
00:55:22,119 --> 00:55:25,000
entrepreneurial drive and they're going

1443
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,599
to Shadow the hell out of those two

1444
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,839
Founders as they try to do do the

1445
00:55:26,599 --> 00:55:30,520
Indiana Jones and switch out the

1446
00:55:28,839 --> 00:55:32,760
founders and put in the sales team but

1447
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,960
they have to be close listeners and they

1448
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,680
and you really have to drill them on

1449
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:37,160
that story and you have to get that

1450
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:41,039
discipline you can't just be like I

1451
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:43,119
hired sales teams this is what we do go

1452
00:55:41,039 --> 00:55:44,520
like you if you care about the story and

1453
00:55:43,119 --> 00:55:46,559
all this world building that you're

1454
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:48,079
doing you're going to coach them and set

1455
00:55:46,559 --> 00:55:52,240
them up for success and you're also

1456
00:55:48,079 --> 00:55:53,520
going to try to set sure kpis but kpis

1457
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:55,119
only look in the rear view right you're

1458
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:58,240
going to work on what are the leading

1459
00:55:55,119 --> 00:56:00,559
indicators not how many dials are you

1460
00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:02,640
making but like what are the levers that

1461
00:56:00,559 --> 00:56:05,359
you can pull when you're trying to

1462
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,799
adjust the numbers here does this mean

1463
00:56:05,359 --> 00:56:09,960
you we need to adjust your field

1464
00:56:06,799 --> 00:56:11,880
marketing strategy to to reach a

1465
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:14,119
different audience a different number of

1466
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:17,079
people do we need to spend less on this

1467
00:56:14,119 --> 00:56:18,599
more on that um I really think you got

1468
00:56:17,079 --> 00:56:22,319
to work with that team and I think if

1469
00:56:18,599 --> 00:56:24,599
you do it this way and you've taken your

1470
00:56:22,319 --> 00:56:26,960
time ideally you get this beautiful

1471
00:56:24,599 --> 00:56:28,799
thing where sales and marketing

1472
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:31,039
are Marching to the same sheet of music

1473
00:56:28,799 --> 00:56:32,400
because most of the time it's like this

1474
00:56:31,039 --> 00:56:33,720
right you hired sales first and they're

1475
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,880
just going out and saying whatever they

1476
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:36,760
want because they weren't equipped with

1477
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,200
the story and then marketing's like oh

1478
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,720
we got to Pivot and we got to like

1479
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,000
change our messaging and they go do the

1480
00:56:39,720 --> 00:56:42,880
website and it says this and these

1481
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,760
people are promising that well it's a

1482
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,359
lot of friction right because I was

1483
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,240
promised this and I finally booked a

1484
00:56:46,359 --> 00:56:51,280
demo call and this isn't what I signed

1485
00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:54,440
up for like wait what like it's very

1486
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:56,839
discordant it's very uh it's a very hard

1487
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,799
entry and that is very hard to recover

1488
00:56:56,839 --> 00:56:59,799
from because as soon as you start

1489
00:56:57,799 --> 00:57:01,000
creating that friction you've SE doubt

1490
00:56:59,799 --> 00:57:02,319
into the prospect's mind and they're

1491
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,480
like I don't know if these people know

1492
00:57:02,319 --> 00:57:06,440
what they're doing and then it's then

1493
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:08,200
uphill from there I have so many

1494
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,480
thoughts and I'm trying to prioritize

1495
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,440
them because we are at time I think

1496
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,920
we're just gonna have to pick up this

1497
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,640
conversation George this is so helpful

1498
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:17,520
for folks to start thinking the

1499
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:19,200
differently of not hiring that sales

1500
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:21,359
team first but thinking about how to

1501
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:23,720
hire marketing first get that messaging

1502
00:57:21,359 --> 00:57:25,440
in lock step with your founder as your

1503
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,799
founder gets out there and continues to

1504
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:29,400
sell and honing that while as you bring

1505
00:57:27,799 --> 00:57:31,920
in customer success getting that

1506
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:33,720
messaging dialed in bringing in product

1507
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,799
and then bringing in sales to take that

1508
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:37,720
off of the founder and being able to go

1509
00:57:35,799 --> 00:57:41,240
and run with it oh my gosh we are

1510
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:42,839
flipping the whole Playbook y'all 3.0 is

1511
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:45,000
here and we are here for it thank you so

1512
00:57:42,839 --> 00:57:47,559
much George where can people find you if

1513
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:49,680
they don't yeah only on LinkedIn because

1514
00:57:47,559 --> 00:57:51,839
I ain't got time for anything else um

1515
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,400
but so that or you can listen to you can

1516
00:57:51,839 --> 00:57:56,240
listen to me rant with my co-host on

1517
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:58,319
bare Knuckles and brast taxs yes yes

1518
00:57:56,240 --> 00:58:00,880
dial on into that one for sure I know

1519
00:57:58,319 --> 00:58:03,160
that I do it's so good so so good you

1520
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:05,640
got a taste of it here today but just oh

1521
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:07,799
double whammy over there it's great uh

1522
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:09,640
before we go George my last question for

1523
00:58:07,799 --> 00:58:11,160
you because you're more than a marketer

1524
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:13,680
uh you're more than a co-host you're

1525
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:16,799
more than all of these amazing things

1526
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:18,319
you do um what's currently bringing you

1527
00:58:16,799 --> 00:58:21,440
Joy outside of

1528
00:58:18,319 --> 00:58:22,760
work oh yeah I mean obviously I like

1529
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:25,720
books because these are all real books

1530
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:27,599
behind me so this year I have started to

1531
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:29,599
do book book projects which is like a

1532
00:58:27,599 --> 00:58:31,960
more intentional way of reading so I

1533
00:58:29,599 --> 00:58:35,039
wanted to read peral Everett's uh new

1534
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:37,520
novel James but I reread Huckleberry

1535
00:58:35,039 --> 00:58:39,160
Finn first and then James which is the

1536
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:41,520
retelling of the story from Jim's

1537
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:43,799
perspective uh so that was really fun to

1538
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:46,319
hold those side by side of my head the

1539
00:58:43,799 --> 00:58:47,640
next one is uh the full year project is

1540
00:58:46,319 --> 00:58:50,400
I'm trying to work through all of

1541
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:52,119
Shakespeare's plays by taking them with

1542
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,839
me so that I don't check my phone when

1543
00:58:52,119 --> 00:58:56,760
I'm standing in line at the airport so

1544
00:58:53,839 --> 00:58:58,839
we'll see oh I need follow up with you

1545
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,400
on that I sort of had a moment of

1546
00:58:58,839 --> 00:59:02,359
obsession through high school and

1547
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:06,280
college on Shakespeare so we are going

1548
00:59:02,359 --> 00:59:07,760
to circle back oh so good George I'm so

1549
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,319
so grateful thank you to all of our

1550
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:12,440
listeners and the people who joined us

1551
00:59:09,319 --> 00:59:14,280
today we see you Michael and Linda and

1552
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:16,359
Danny and Elijah for holding down the

1553
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,039
four we appreciate you all so much if

1554
00:59:16,359 --> 00:59:20,079
you liked this episode please like

1555
00:59:18,039 --> 00:59:21,640
subscribe and share this episode was

1556
00:59:20,079 --> 00:59:22,880
brought to you by mkg marketing the

1557
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,480
digital marketing agency that helps

1558
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:26,640
complex Brands get found via SEO and

1559
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:28,039
digital ads this episode is by me car

1560
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:30,119
guard CEO and co-founder of mkg

1561
00:59:28,039 --> 00:59:32,799
marketing music mix and mastering done

1562
00:59:30,119 --> 00:59:34,720
by Elijah drown my podcast sidekick and

1563
00:59:32,799 --> 00:59:38,039
if you'd like to be a guest JY I'd love

1564
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:38,990
to have you on see you all next time

1565
00:59:38,039 --> 00:59:43,010
thanks

1566
00:59:38,990 --> 00:59:43,010
[Music]

1567
00:59:43,039 --> 00:59:48,659
all the music

1568
00:59:45,540 --> 00:59:48,659
[Music]