what's happening is sure you've slapped
it up somewhere and I saw something and
I randomly filled out a form and then
you get the lead that's like these
people are interested in speaking to you
what that means is your white paper is
an open tab one of a thousand sitting in
a browser window that they forgot to
actually
read hello I'm Carrie guard CEO of mkg
marketing and welcome back to tea time
with tech marketing leaders I'm so
excited for this conversation uh I
didn't even know that George Kam knew
who I was y'all and he did it was so
exciting and we just hit the ground
running at Cyber marketing con about all
the things and I'm so excited to now
have somewhat of that conversation here
live with you all so you can hear it
because it is gold gold George welcome
to the show happy to be here so excited
like I said little bit about uh I'm
going to I'm going to read your bio for
folks but really what we're going to be
looking forward to for to is your story
so real quick little bit about George he
is the head of community and content at
the ceso society a community of 1400
plus Security leaders and Counting he
co-hosts bear Knuckles and Brass tax a
podcast exploring the human side of the
cyber security industry and is the
co-founder and executive director of
Mind Over cyber a nonprofit helping
infosec professionals manage
stress he frequently speaks on AI and
cyber security advises early stage
startups and addresses value creation
and risk management for organizations
ranging from NOS to Fortune 500
companies his disinformation research
has been featured in The Washington Post
the guardian and BBC News he has had
also briefed us cyber command and the
Congressional cyber caucus on influence
operations what a guest y'all what a
guest George ah so good why don't you
tell us your story though that's a lot
of juice in there of some amazing
compliment but how did you get there
what's the journey bring us uh I don't
know I mean we talked earlier I'm going
to curse everyone because that's how I
express myself so my future Memoir will
be titled blindly stumbling into Fun
[ __ ] um so I got an MFA in creative
writing and in 2013 before Transformers
were a thing I think the papers were
just being published
um yeah they would pay you um at a
salary to write coherent sentences
because apparently that was in short
supply so I wa parlayed that into a job
in marketing worked for a small agency
that got successfully acquired until we
were a global marketing agency and um I
got tired of having ideas that people
wouldn't action on because of some
bureaucratic thing on the client side
and so I sort of side doored into a
cyber security startup that was working
on social media threats and then went
from there but I've been working with
computers since I was seven
so like a lot of the how networking
works and the technology and stuff
wasn't entirely new to me and then on
top of that I was an anthropologist by
training and what I like to say radical
humanist by vocation so I think that
it's been very rewarding in the sense
that I've been able to apply that
anthropological lens to basically
everything I
do oh my gosh I like want to dig into
all of the things what do you feel like
from an anthropological standpoint has
been the most
useful aspect from your from what you
learned to what you're Now app how are
your how you're now applying that in
your marketing job uh listening and
watching you know I think fundamentally
marketing is the anthropology of your
customer right you are trying to learn
how they behave how they think how they
talk and you're trying to meet them
there I don't think you're trying to
like weaponize those patterns of
behavior but certainly need to learn
them and then um what I do at the cesa
society is managing that Community is
like the anthropology of security leader
is also the same thing it's just
listening and watching and observing I
guess is really it's it's been in
everything whether I was looking at bots
on Twitter back during 2016 to 2017 or
whether it's the cesos and how they talk
about vendors how they talk about their
fears worries aspirations all of it I'm
going on a tangent y bring us back to
Center I promise but I have to know in
terms of all that listening you're
doing uh especially with your audience
your primary
audience what's
one thing you're hearing most right now
it almost feels like they're shouting it
at you even but you're probably
listening most intently than more than
most people so it probably feels like
you're over it but maybe people still
need to hear it so what's that yeah
there are two things I think from
there's a huge divide between technology
providers and Technology buyers mostly
because of like where the priorities are
if you're a technology provider you're
in it you're in the tooling you're like
want to sell the widget so that's like
where the incentive structure of
capitalism is around that widget and its
features and all that stuff and that's
only like a fraction of what your buyer
cares about and I think the companies
that succeed are the ones that can close
that Gap the fastest right I think you'd
be surprised that the number of names of
big vendors that get mentioned as rip
and replace because poor customer
service they they can't get anyone to
answer their support tickets or
um yeah they just feel like they as the
customer don't count and that's not a
technology problem right that's a people
problem that's a process problem and so
again you you have to care about kind of
all of it and I think you would only do
that if you were really paying attention
to your customers well that's actually a
lovely segue but before we do that one
last question for you around you know
for you right now as a
GTM marketer and for all the clients
you're working with as well as all the
communities you're working within what's
one challenge you're currently having
what feels Harden in your way right now
storytelling
sucks really yeah yeah storytelling
sucks I think the go to market motion of
the heady SAS 2.0 era is what I call it
it's like the time where we had zero
interest rates and everyone was just
like up into the right exponential sales
that's a particular Playbook and
everyone who let me be let me not
generalize most of the people in
positions of authority today came from
that era so they're sort of copying and
pasting that Playbook despite the fact
that markets are not static they're
Dynamic things change I go to
conferences now and I look out and we're
talking 38y old cesos you know it's a
different
person it's a different buying Behavior
the way they grew up on the Internet is
different and so I think we have to
change those things and because there's
so much noise you just can't count on
like doing things the old way and so
when I say storytelling sucks I think
technical Founders are very necessary in
terms of they were either operators and
they're trying to make up for a gap that
they couldn't I've spoken to a lot who
are like look I worked at such and such
company like Big Fang style companies
and we couldn't find a single vendor
that did this and we kind of coded
something ourselves but I saw an
opportunity great that's
great but the things that you care about
as a technical founder and as an
engineer are not the same things that
your customer cares about and that's a
really hard mental hurdle to
overcome and the storytelling is just
awful it's
like just read me the spec sheet read me
the road map okay that's cool but like I
started asking is like what business
risk do you help cyber security leaders
draw down and there's like maybe one in
10 can answer that question they're very
used to like what is the Cyber threat
that you address or what is the Cyber
risk you mitigate DLP you know unified
endpoint Network
whatever but the but they have to go
sell that story the C has to go sell
that story to the either the board the
CIO the
CFO very few cesos have the the check
capability so they got to go get the
money from somebody and So the faster
you can equip them with a story to tell
on your behalf the the better your sales
cycle will be I MA yes I think when you
start putting it
against problem solution which really
comes down to what threat you detect or
um mitigate against the feature right
that's one very quick story that seems
to be where everybody goes but when you
really pull up and ask about what
business problem you're
solving that's a very different story to
tell that I imagine in cyber can be both
can be somewhat easy but also hard
because it's the same story everybody
would tell Right In terms yeah meantime
to detection meantime to response
whatever see all the things more
visibility um what you really need to
think about is also the foundation of
Storytelling right so there is a dream
in the Founder's head in a certain
hubris it's absolutely required to
survive in the market to even have the
konus that like I can make this thing
and it's worthwhile and somebody's going
to buy it takes a lot of Pride but then
you kind of gotta fail fast and and get
really humble because that storytelling
Foundation is is essential for scaling
right where we see the failure is as
series a ramps up and you're acquiring
more customers the sellers that you are
hiring and you're transitioning out of
founder Le sales or network Le sales you
have to have taught those people how to
sell like you did to have the same
vision that you did that work doesn't
get done that's a huge ironic data loss
problem in this in the cyber security
ecosystem and then you pay for it later
you pay for it in so in either churn
because sellers aren't getting what they
want or they don't have the playbooks
they need they're not set up for success
or you're getting it in rebrands that
are really expensive website rebuilds
messaging workshops from series A to B
this is like a really high friction
point we are talking like a lot of burnt
Capital if if you just took the time to
get the storytelling right and the and
the coaching you can provide the solid
foundation and you can easily build on
top of that and and scale it up but it's
it's so hard to do and it's hard to do
well and it doesn't feel
like you're doing something and this is
a huge cognitive hurdle somebody was
just ask we were I was talking with
Danny wolf and some others because there
was another vendor that announced
another F1 sponsorship and they're like
why are they doing this when they
wouldn't pay for this other thing that
was like obviously significantly less
than an F1 sponsorship and like because
it doesn't scratch an itch right when
you do these big performative things
like oh I got this series a I'm gon to
go hire this hot [ __ ] cro and a whole
bunch of Enterprise seller is cool it
like feels like you're doing
something and it's performative but it's
satisfying right just like getting your
logo on an F1 car y but it's harder work
to do that sort of to iron out that
messaging and it's gritty and it like
you're may be moving an inch it's a fine
margin but it it will pay off in the end
but I I think it just doesn't feel like
a cognitive relief or something whatever
that is so this dovetails perfectly and
into really where you and I wanted to
sit today and the conversation we wanted
to have and it is the the importance of
taking that first step of getting the
story right and so I think it's really
key that we I want to double down on
just one thing you said around what the
story needs to be which is and I'm not
hearing this really being talked about
this is really the first time doing this
podcast for five years I've had plenty
of folks on who've talked about
messaging Left Right Center up down and
over I'm having more people on the show
this year both who've already been on
and more people who are coming in where
the Crux of everything is
around content and messaging and getting
it right but none of them have yet to
say
that it needs to solve the business need
it needs to solve a business need and so
let's just sit in that for a second and
talk about we talked a little bit about
why that's hard
right um but why
why business need how is that not going
to like I understand it's going to help
in terms of connecting with leadership
and board members to potentially get the
money but I'm but my worry like I sort
of mentioned is aren't you going to get
lost in the sauce because you're all
trying to essentially do the same thing
which is save the company money to some
degree and isn't that really what it
comes down to it's like yes and no I
mean you're gonna yeah you're going to
have like your sort of big thing that
you you do like I don't know you're an
identity you're a non-human identity
security provider versus an email
security provider yes you're solving the
business risk but I think if you're
listening to your prospect and you've
done your research there are subtleties
in those needs so for
example let's take the in the Pharma
industry for example so people think
Pharma they think fiser they think GSK
they think critical
IP so the confidentiality of that
information is that's how the company
makes money fizer does not make things
they formulate and then they send it out
to people to do they contract out the
human trials and they also contract out
the manufacturing so like within
Pharma you have maybe a manufacturer for
whom confidentiality isn't necessarily A
need that's a patented formula it's
available in the patent office but
availability is very high right if the
line stops going vaccines stop getting
made so it's about understanding those
nuances and being able to talk to the
person and the priorities that matter to
them so yes email security for the
manufacturing obviously probably less
headcount because it's like back office
light versus you know operationally
heavy maybe different for fizer but the
way they think about that problem is
different to them right like I don't
want a virus that stops the machines I
don't want ransomware that seizes my
proprietary information there's Nuance
there and I think the
biggest place I see this in terms of the
disjuncture between
marketing and
messaging is just the floor of any
conference like if you go to RSA and you
spot the buzzwords and whatever which
we've all made a big deal about even
though we're sort of all per and victims
of it at the same time but if you if you
are shadowing a friend who's a
ciso and they've actually seen something
interesting you can watch them in the
hallway they'll run into other friends
right RSA 40 50,000 people and
somebody's going to be like hey have you
seen anything interesting yeah I had a
good conversation with so and so they're
pretty new but it sounds like they could
help my problem that I'm having in terms
of the backlog in the in the log
analysis or I think it can really
streamline our sock operations at no
point will they use the buzzwords that
are on the placard they're not going to
be like Oh I'm really excited I found
the nextg zero trust TurnKey whatever
the [ __ ] so like are you my question is
are you equipping your buyers to speak
in the language to their peers that you
would like to be spoken in because if
you're not you're just what you do is
you create a cognitive hurdle every
Prospect has to relearn your story MH
and you are stuck there re-explaining it
to everyone whereas if you could like
latch on that person's and you you know
give them a good customer experience and
Implement they're going to go talk talk
for you it's so interesting because when
we talk about messaging in a way that
people internally can regurgitate it
right from sales and marketing but we've
never heard again it's gold George gold
we've never heard anybody talk about if
saying it so simply that your audience
can then go share it and I think it's
because we Silo a lot of functions right
so customer success in its best format
early days is you just have somebody in
the room kind of following your design
partners and your early customers and
just like being their best friend
they're there all the damn time customer
success in its worst format is like just
collect payment for these invoices and
hit them up 90 days before renewal see
if they'll buy
more but if even if you're doing the
best case scenario and you got this
kickass customer success person who's
taking a lot of notes like how well are
those notes getting fed back to
engineering and then product marketing
and then like can you translate that
into sales enablement it's all the
connective tissue it's not the
superstars in each Silo it's how well
the pieces are connected it's the it's
the through line it's the senu not the
not the muscle itself that matters all
right let's start breaking this down a
little bit because we're you're jumping
ahead giving the game away um in terms
of your story and not and and getting
that down against the business
challenges that companies have and being
able to speak to that so thoughtfully um
you gave one instance around Pharma it
sounds like knowing the industry of what
you're going into is a really big
opportunity is there any other
opportunities in terms of how to
position you're
messaging that sort of find helps people
find that Nuance so they can go look at
by industry what else you got well I
would say like you know account-based
marketing is a big halabaloo these days
right like how can you focus on the
accounts that are showing intent versus
just sort of like I got this list of the
Fortune 100 and we're just going to work
down from one to 100 right how can you
get smarter about where you put your
money and your time well I would say
it's not just that account right because
we talk about account penetration but
from the sales perspective that's like
how many people are you emailing in that
company or reaching out to but I would
say that within those Industries like
you also need to learn who are the end
users right
because I can't tell you how many
startups I've seen that have like the
dark mode dashboard that's like
basically designed for the eso but
they're cool in a demo but like dayto
day I don't know a lot of them are
Hands-On keys in the tooling because
they're stuck in budget meetings and
audit stuff and whatever else they are
relying on their team leads and their
operators and if you don't know what
those people care about I don't you will
never I mean great you can speak in the
language of business but then you sort
of have to like push it down into the
stuff that those people care about you
know is it are you the psyops team are
you talking to detection engineer are
you talking to security Engineers appsec
Engineers I mean that that matters and I
think you need to go and meet those
people and find them and those aren't
the people who necessarily get to
blackhe hat or RSA or whatever but
they're at Regional conferences they're
at bsides they're at uh Issa chapter
meetings and you just got to get time on
the ground and and get to know them
again it's the anthropology of your
customer or I don't so you could go
spend some time in Reddit and please
don't say anything just listen for a
little bit yeah I love that and I think
it really helps because as you know we
at Cyber marketing H when there was
actually a ciso very kind human who
stood up on you know in front of
everybody and was very clear we are not
your audience please stop marketing to
us and I think yeah it's a yes and we to
your point of the business you know what
business problem you solve that's still
going to come up through the ceso to get
to the board to get to the money um but
the relationship you need be building
day to
day is that end user and understanding
where they are and how to connect with
them I think is key and the way and the
problem you solve for them does come
back to I don't know you you tell me
George but I would imagine that's where
a little bit of the product
solution
messaging it's also like that first
thing I said which is like you really
care about the product but they also
care about the process I've seen tools
that look
incredible but when you ask them like
okay so walk me through this I've heard
leaders say like this is going to like
3x the amount of time my team has to do
this like this is like cool in the gang
but like I can't do that to them like
I'm was gonna like they're all I'm
already being asked to do more with less
why would I ask them to do more with
less time that they have right so that's
pretty brutal but you wouldn't know that
unless you spend time with with those SE
operators and you talk to them and get
to know them um you know we interviewed
Merill Vernon shout out to her and her
favorite thing was like does it export
to this file format and if it was a no
then it was like I can't use it because
it's going to take me three hours to
convert your stuff to make it talk to
this other stuff again it could be super
cool it could be super slick smooth
whatever but then it could also look
like that and your operator gets in
there and it takes 10 clicks instead of
two it's like God no you're like going
to exponentially increase um but so like
all that uiux feedback that's customer
success that's like please tell me what
you hate or what you love about this
product and stuff like that and um yeah
I just think that's that's a missing
component like if you don't understand
the process side like your tool looks
cool maybe maybe it's like some
revolutionary way to to do something but
it doesn't integrate with like the
top part of the stack that most of your
customers would use and you're going to
tell yourself well we're just going to
go to market and we'll build that as we
go man you are going to spend 6 months
trying to convince people to buy a road
map right like if it's ready to go it's
ready to go I can't be like I'm gonna
sell you on this and then you can wait
three months like no one's got time for
that no one can justify that kind of
spend these days like the budgets are
not again as heady as they were in the
zero interest rate period the buyers
changed and their resources have
definitely definitely changed all right
you've brought customer success now like
400 times let's get into it it sounds
like George your first hire after you
figure out your messaging and your story
needs to be a customer success person or
maybe they are yes let me let me let me
back up okay so you have there is a role
for like a CMO head of marketing
director of marketing
but what I see
is uh we get the money we got seed we
pay an agency to do our branding
pay an agency to kind of build the
website uh we hire some inside sellers
or maybe we're just still doing founder
Le sales and then we hire like a junior
marketer to post on LinkedIn and
literally do all the things right
because that's what they do is they hire
the junior person you're like you're the
field person and the whatever right so I
would say
like you know set the expectation you
get the story right so yes you need to
bring in senior marketing person who
kind of has a sense of that stuff their
first role is not like download a lead
list in demand gen it's let me work with
you Founders Andor elt let's get this
story right let's get the messaging the
sales
hire is that hybrid sales marketing
anthropology hire of customer success it
is that marketer's job to interface with
that
person all the time
be in the calls get the downloads
understand make sure that there's a
process built for that feedback to get
into the engineering team whether it's
jira tickets or whatever the
hell and quarterback that that is the
marketer's job in that very early days
and setting that expectation the 90-day
plan we're going to sort of build out to
here and then yes after you got that
flywheel going for customer success and
you're getting that feedback and you
built that engine and you're and you're
again coaching your Founders on how to
because they're probably still in the
role of the CTO is really like a sales
engineer and the CEO is really like the
first seller cool and then like once you
start to see that success and you want
to start scaling a sales team like
really really own that story and that
dissemination and scaling that in terms
of training playbooks I hate the word
playbooks uh but I I understand what the
nomenclature
means um but the sales enablement
program too and then you can and you're
sort of using that story to build the
brand because brand will eventually
create demand um but if your first step
is
like content syndication random lead
list dial for dollars hire outsourced
agency Junior bdrs bang phones all day I
mean I think that worked in 2016 but
it's a uphill road now and again you
will pay for it later I have never
understood why you would want the first
interaction with your unknown brand that
no one cares
about to be an outsourced Junior person
who's working three accounts they don't
care about you so now you have like two
degrees of not caring right to just like
spoof phone numbers and cold call Senior
leaders and be like hey I'm calling from
this company that you don't know
anything about can I try to cram two
minutes worth of content into 16 seconds
before you hang up on
me I don't like that brand I hate you
now and I'm never going to talk to you
you know I might pay attention a few
years later after I've heard some things
about you but like good God no way yeah
so let me unpack some of the things that
you said because you yes so it sounds
like Founders
generally once they get a seed round
their first seed round the first thing
they'll do from a marketing perspective
is get right into the visual aspect of
it they'll get a website up they'll get
a little bit of branding they'll um
maybe hire an agency for help with that
and then they'll get a junior person to
start and you're saying hold the phone
Be Kind Rewind let's take a step back
and start really with
understanding your audience yeah if I
had time with them I would be like I'd
be like you had an incredible idea you
had an idea that was worth
funding do you believe this can like
change the market yes do you believe
it's absolutely necessary for cyber
security yes cool let's unpack why and
then let's go talk to our design
partners and understand why they
believed in you was it literally because
of VC was just like please test this
thing okay that's a data point or is it
because they were willing to go out on a
limb because they also understood the
Gap that you were
Illuminating let's step a little bit
away from the technology how how is the
workflow in their team today what is it
doing for them what would they like to
see in the future like all that is
like very juicy data that's very
valuable right and uh this is
my uh counterintuitive marketing stance
that might be anema to some but I don't
care if you have to schedule
brainstorming
sessions you have already lost the plot
and I let me qualify that a
brainstorming session where you sit down
and you just sort of pull ideas out of
The Ether because marketing is about
creativity and ideas
great but I would say like if you're
pulling ideas out of ether then you have
stopped paying attention to the market
you were trying to
attract or be a part of so I'm saying
there's room for creativity but it
better be from the seeds and the kernels
that are in both your prospects and the
people who are paying you right now if
you got ARR in the books you have ideas
but I don't think that we look at that
place for ideas we think oh well look
what these folks are doing what if we
could do that you don't have Sentinel
one money stop trying to be Sentinel
one you know yeah so not yet yeah yeah
creativity thrives in constraint and you
need to think that way and you need to
be a little
scrappier yeah but I also think the
source of those ideas are different than
where people think they
are yeah I me sorry just to just to
hammer home the point you and I talked
at Cyber marketing con
I think the vast majority of marketers
already know this I think most marketers
live in
2025 right they're talking to peers
they're sort of seeing best of breed
they're probably reading industry trades
they're just sort of a it's like in the
industry to keep a pulse on things
they're trying to ideally they're
pulling ideas from other things like
they're watching Super Bowl ads and
they're kind of like playing letting
things germinate letting things turn in
their head ideally they're looking over
the fence not just in cyber but other
things
CR I think the problem is that somebody
else is in the ear of the founders and
they're running a Playbook from 2018
2019 so I think it's really in those
early stages how well can you grab CEO
founder C's hand and be like here come
with me to the present let me show you
why this is rather than please stop
listening to the person who last sold
something in
2017 because I promise you the market is
changing there are three distinct forces
at work Confluence of things that are
rapidly changing those things and uh
it's just it's not going to go back that
way so stop trying to like copy pasta
your old uh your old methodology so what
are the three things what are the three
things in your in your visibility that
have changed that marketers need to walk
over to the CEO and take their hand and
say these three things have changed and
time to move with the buyer what are
those things in your perspec the
financial Outlook has changed
right so you can't just sort of get the
zero interest like the money is just is
running but it's not as flush and as
headyy as it used to be insane
valuations I can afford to burn urn a
sales team three times as long as I'm
just acquiring new logos right like logo
turn is a huge problem I think more VCS
are accurately looking at how long are
you retaining those customers how are
you upselling what is the proportion do
you have like 10 million AR and eight of
it is like this one giant account and
you you're having hard time repeating
success in other
accounts um the buyer as we've pointed
out has changed right so the the age the
generation like how they interact has
changed and the technology has changed
right like Google straight up will not
let domains send more than 5,000 emails
a day so you can't blast 30,000 without
your server getting listed and blocked
and that is a huge problem and also I
think we do not and have not reckoned
with the trauma that was the covid lift
and shift to remote work so like before
when I was in an office and I would get
cold called I sort of had that context
like oh the [ __ ] this might happen like
somebody's going to call my office phone
and it's rarely going to be somebody in
the office fine but once you're at home
and people are calling you and they're
spoofing your area code and you're like
oh is it the school is it the
doctor no don't ever do that and that's
what I hear repeatedly like people just
straight up do not answer the phone
anymore um so all those three things are
conspiring to form what I call like the
SAS 3.0 era like we're just going to
have to adapt to that but if you're
pulling in the tactics from 2.0 it's
going to be pretty hard I mean you might
brute force your success to some degree
oh and also in terms of the buyer
Behavior like just cesos talk more now
right I mean the ca Society didn't exist
in 2018 and there are other associations
other communities WhatsApp groups I have
people who show me their inbox and
they're like this vendor has emailed me
60 times in the last three months I have
blocked their domain and told my team we
will never do business with them just
because they find the Outreach abusive
so that poor that poor sales rep or
account executive has no idea that
they've burned their entire territory
because they've all been talking and
they're like that guy sucks you know and
um I just think you now need to think
very carefully about how are you being
spoken about in the communities you're
not in because they all talk and I would
say you know I know we're talking a lot
about cyber um and that's a lot of the
folks who are here I see you Danny wolf
nice to see you Michael oblanc thanks
for joining us um I do want to call out
that this is across the board in terms
of B2B Tech especially in SAS like the
the all the different um sea level have
their own communities now and they're
all sharing what's working and what's
not and they're all in the boats
together so being very intentional about
how we go to market is so crucial now
than than ever and I do think that
marketers get it where you and I talked
and what I think is so critical about
the conversation is that they get it but
they don't know yet how to get there or
how to execute it and there's this Chasm
of like I get it the buyers changed they
has less resources we have to talk about
business outcomes great but but how and
so let's talk about let's get to those
let's let's pull this part for people
and actually make them feel like they
can go do the thing all right we've
given up 2.0 George we get it we're here
for 3.0 now tell me how on Earth to get
after it and so the first step is to
figure out your messaging and from the
conversations we've had it's very much
about hiring somebody who can help you
get after it you as the marketer don't
have to know oh this was such a hard
lesson for me recently I'm a figure it
outer I've grown up as a figure it outer
right I will fig I will turn and turn
and turn until and iterate itate iterate
till I get the thing right we don't have
that kind of time money or resource
anymore right so I have to go find
somebody who knows how to do the thing
to tell me how to go do it now and
so I I think that was such a great sort
of aha moment when we were talking of
like don't don't feel like you have to
be the one to go cultivate this
messaging there's people out there
people who how to do it right and it's
interesting because who you think this
person should be is not who people might
think it should be so who is that higher
that's going to come in and help you
define your story that's going to then
fuel everything else from that point
on yeah well I think
we don't put enough value on outside
perspective
right and like that sort of tunnel
vision that comes from being on the
product side is the thing that is our
Achilles heel cuz of course like if
you're hired and you're like there for
the startup ride and you want to build
with the team like it's very it's just
so easy to to lose air in the room right
if just you're just all talking to one
another so I do think again if you think
of the first CMO or the first marketing
hire as kind of the quarterback one of
those things is you bring in your
outside strength and conditioning coach
which might be a Communications
specialist because it's your job to
manage up like look this is why this
matters this is why brand matters
because if we just have the same shield
and red and whatever else language that
everyone else has like uh you know
defend your system or die like it's just
not going to work like how are we
possibly Gonna Stand Out okay great so
you're on board with what brand means
and like really talk about that and then
I'm going to bring somebody in to work
with us so that we have a clear story
because I can use that to take you to
the moon right I'm not just doing this
because I like to sit around the
campfire and sing kumaya like we're
going to do this because it's necessary
for
Success you are you founder CEO are
going to be really frustrated when we
get a sales team in here and you listen
in on a call and they're prom in things
that we don't do or they're saying
things that you're like where did they
get that right so I need to take what is
in your brain and if you got to praise
them go do that ego massage like you
have the juice but eventually Your Role
changes you go out of founder lead sales
and you got to like get this rocket ship
going and I have to take what's in your
brain and put it in others so I need
that storytelling coach um I got a lot
of friends who are former actors who are
doing this work um there are a lot of
communications Consultants but you need
to look at the ones that have helped
craft those stories not just like train
them to be a keynote speaker or whatever
that's a kind of different kind of Coach
but somebody who can like really I guess
put your heels to the fire really just
ask yourself the question like talk to
me so what why so what and like if you
cannot thread if you can't answer those
questions it's a huge problem and then
once you have the answers you're
checking back with your design Partners
how are you talking about us and you
just sort of like pull all that in and
you got to put that in the cauldron and
you got to test it and you got to go
back to those customers look if I told
you we did this does that cohere with
your experience of our product great and
then like hey do you have someone else
you could uh recommend another peer that
we could talk to and it's not to sell to
them it's like hey we've been working
with so and so and we are doing and
you're testing you're constantly testing
that message and you just you got to get
that I
I I can tell you I mean I think we all
know the consequences but it's very
clear you bring in a sales team they
won't do it the VCS will complain you'll
turn them out oh it's so expensive um
you'll pay for the Rebrand you'll redo
the site $400,000 later like it can just
be so costly and it feels performative
and it feels like oh marketing is doing
something but God that's expensive and
you're eating away at time so Joel Ben
is GNA be on tea time in just a few
short weeks here and so he will yeah so
he's one of he was at Cyber marketing
con he did a wonderful workshop and
yeah he's going to sort of unpack that
here with me on the show for more people
so if you're still sort of scratching
your head of like cool I could bring
somebody in but I still don't understand
what it is that they do wait for that
show he's going to show us exactly what
he does to help us and it's great he
uses like an Arista tilian framework
which is to say that messaging has not
changed in 2,000 years but it's still
it's still effective like it's still
effective yeah Joel's great he's awesome
he's gonna bring his cards so yeah
that's it's really good that he did that
too it makes it very accessible it does
it does so stay tuned on that I know
that we probably still feel like this is
the messaging is the hardest piece and
we're all being very clear that you
don't have to solve it and that there
are experts and you're going to get to
see one of those folks action and and
like like you think at Richard feinman
right the quantum physicist who was very
famous for being able
to distill like complex subatomic
particle physics to like high schoolers
and his technique was like he would
explain in very plain language and then
he would like basically write it down I
think his litmus test was a 12-year-old
I like to think about like just call it
the mom test like can you explain what
you do to your mom and yes you might
need to explain like non-human
identities to your mom but you got to be
like hey you know how we think of
identities as people and you know how
there's like that printer over there
well like when computers anyway can you
do that exercise and uh then he would
write it down and he would like go
through and strip out any anything that
felt like a little exrain just keep
testing it keep testing it and his idea
was that you have not truly mastered a
topic until you can explain it to a
12-year-old I think everyone listening
to this has had the experience if you
were in college and you had a brilliant
professor and they had this story
prestigious reputation and you're like I
don't know what they're talking about
because they couldn't pull it down to
101 they were really good at high Theory
they're really good talking to their
peers but you just like glazing over
because they could not get it to your
undergradu uate level but then you might
have had professors who like it clicked
like that's what you loved you took that
101 class and you were hooked and that
is that is a very valuable skill yes to
Great examples and all things we can
start it doesn't mean that you you
shouldn't understand how they do the
process or or go about it or being able
to test it yourself and trying it
bringing an expert bring in an expert
100% because you're because you're still
going to be
quarterbacking right like we talked
earlier all that senu building the
connections between like that's a lot of
work that's a lot of process building
it's a lot of Sops and whatever you want
to call it so yes to your point Carrie
you can't be the person micromanaging
the messaging Workshop that's a lot you
can't be everything yep totally all
right let's talk about the next piece
we've we've talked about it in terms of
the customer success so now you bring in
as the marketing leader you got you're
getting your branding dial it in now
you're one of bringing customer success
and you mentioned in passing sort of
what the ideal scenario is for that
customer success person does can you
just relay that for us one more time and
how the marketer sort of plugs into that
to bring it home back into the branding
piece yeah early customer success and I
think it scales out also is just they
got to be your customer's best friend
you know later on when you're bigger
it's going to be more like qbrs and
annual reviews but they need to have
regular touch points with the customer
in the early days when it's design
Partners it's really like you're sitting
in there with the product team and
you're like what do you like about the
ux what if we did it this way and and
then but that's a lot of engineering and
a lot of product for customer success
I'm very interested in like how would
you describe what we do how would you
talk to a PE about us what would you say
about your experience if they're like it
was necessary cuz we had this data
problem but like the UI is super clui
like that's a problem let's go fix the
UI you know um implementation took a
really long time I would really like
that to be more of an API than this like
hard a I don't know whatever but you
need to know that and you need to sort
of constantly be iterating that but
you're really trying to ask what Danny
is very good at is those open-ended
questions and just get him talking
because when they start expressing
themselves whether it's like I really
love this I think you guys are really on
to something or whatever like those are
the Nuggets those are things you got to
pull at and you got to save them for
later yes and with uh you know with AI
it's like a little easier now to take to
aggregate those conversations and be
able to then pull those nuggets out and
and really form a story across the board
so you know be intentional with your
with you know whoever you're
interviewing that you're recording it
for these purposes um but that's sort of
just yeah my my idea yeah ideal customer
success psychology majors soci ology
people who observe cuz that's what you
need them to do uh okay so you got your
your your branding messaging is just
about figured out you have your customer
success person relaying information so
you're honing and iterating both the
product and the messaging now what all
right so now you've if you've got a
brand to stand on or some sort of
identity that's what that marketing hire
is really going to work at whether it's
Outsourcing some stuff to an agency like
just creation or whatever some PR you
know getting your people speaking in the
places that matter great the next
marketing harder is product marketing
because then you got to start you will
have gotten through the design partner
phase and now you need to start being
able to translate some of the technical
stuff into the language of this The
Operators who will be using your tooling
and then eventually the leader and the
product marketer understands those two
differences like this is what I would
tell the executive buyer this is what I
would tell the operator
what can we create around that that's
comp more compelling than I mean yes
sure you can use a PDF or a one sheeter
or whatever but are there more exciting
ways to to think about how we get that
information across um and then like you
know if the product marketer isn't
comfortable with social or whatever I
mean you're at least getting the ideas
that can then again quarterback rooll
let me take your great ideas I hear you
saying this about technical buyers cool
let me go feed it over to this creative
agency or I don't know maybe you have a
different content Market or like really
like push up against the limits of of
where you feel comfortable but you will
only know where those limits are because
you have that brand right like there are
things that torque can do because
they've established that brand that you
know Crow strike ain't ever going to do
because they got a different brand but
they know where those limits are because
they've done that work both both those
two particular
companies where does video fit into this
do you think in terms of those great
ideas from a marketing persp perspective
are you seeing video become more and
more important or is is with a technical
audience those those more technical
papers the portals those sort of places
for technical content is where it's at
what's what are you sort of seeing in
the landscape these days of of how
technical audiences are absorbing that
content yeah death to white papers so I
mean maybe somebody says give me a white
paper I don't know anyone who says that
anymore does anyone read white papers do
you want to read a white paper anyone
got time for that I mean maybe it's in
an open browser tab that you're never
going to get to until your computer
crashes but you have to think about like
we talked about the buyer is changing so
that also means like how do you want to
consume
information um so yes I think video is
very important I think video is
extremely important when it comes to
like case studies if you can get your
customers doing the talking rather than
just some block quote like ceso Fortune
500 said this if you can get them
talking about the problem that they were
facing oh my God that is that is the
gold and we have more video creation
resources than ever before right I mean
look look we're on streamyard the
Riverside there's all sorts um it's
really like the level of lift is very
low today compared to what it was when I
started I mean you definitely had to go
to like a specialized agency and Video
cost a
fortune um I think that uh videos I mean
I've seen a lot of Brands doing really
good work in terms of trying to get
regular stuff out there whether it's
like User Group content let's talk about
this thing this week um to the stuff
like Anvil logic is doing with uh you
know trying to talk directly to
detection Engineers I I think that's
really great it's like trying to engage
that audience in a format that matters
to them I think in terms of like white
papers and printouts and stuff it's like
people will ask for an architecture
diagram always like literally how does
this work great but like
you paying a copywriter to
write 3,000 words where you casually
slip in like I fix all the problems like
no nobody's doing that and they're not
signing up to download them either yeah
they're definitely not downloading them
leads are GNA be a struggle um if not
already if not I mean I think that's a
whole different conversation we don't
have time for that uh I promise you the
sorry content syndication folks when you
say that you're going to get me in front
of people what's happening is sure
you've slapped it up somewhere and I saw
something and I randomly filled out a
form and then you get the lead that's
like these people are interested in
speaking to you what that means is your
white paper is an open tab one of a
thousand sitting in a browser window
that they forgot to actually read that's
probably what's really happening there
so and then you call them up and they're
like I so you read our white paper and
you're like who that's that experience
ask any marketer I mean I don't know why
we keep doing the same things over and
over expecting a different
result I've only seen one report I don't
have many at my disposal but I I have
seen one report where content
syndication does work top of funnel but
they had an unbelievable nurture engine
behind it so sales was not immediately
picking up the phone and calling these
people they had a way of communicating
that was them working through a nurture
sequence that was educating and then it
was ending up in sales so I do think
that there we are do we do need some
mechanism to be able to connect with the
right people who are interested in what
we have to say but there has to be I got
on my high horse in one of
my uh LinkedIn posts this week about it
of like the I think the seller's going
to change drastically in regards to
selling the the seller can't just show
up to sell anymore they have to show up
to cultivate relationships in a really
thoughtful and meaningful way and if the
white paper is the open door to or the
download the the contents indication is
the open door to start having those
conversations not meetings to understand
where people are and what they need and
back to your point of
listening then I think there's a point
for it but no if you're just doing
content edication immediately call up
and start selling you you are yeah and
once you start getting those indicators
like a particular account has gone
through several steps and they're like
looking like they're more interested and
somebody's salivating over it like they
better be doing their research on that
account like yeah you know when I
interviewed uh Cecil pan he says like
when the people get to me sometimes I
ask them like how did you even reach me
and honestly those the bests sellers are
like well I did my research I knew who
on your team was in charge of this
particular function and I got to know
them and I saw who they report to I mean
it is the anthropology of your customer
that is a kinship network if ever there
was one in the in the academic parlament
it's just an organizational framework
it's the same thing a same damn thing
where's the power sit and how is it
dispersed all right well let's talk
about this because now that you've hired
the product marketer the next step is
that selling team right of like okay now
we can get out and really talk about
this thing so talk to me about I think
we we started to pull it apart but the
ideal seller in your standpoint is that
person who's yeah that's the relation
yeah the relationship selling so like
the classic way is let me hire the big
gun cro they'll bring in all their past
buddies and they're all Enterprise
Sellers and they're ready to go cuz they
used to sell into Goldman Sachs or
whatever and if you think Goldman Sachs
is going to buy your series a whatever
the hell good luck also the S cycle so
long I mean maybe they will but it's
going to be an 18month sales cycle come
on let's do it faster also those reps
are going to expect a lot of stuff and
you have to cultivate a sales team
that's also a that are also Builders if
they come in and they're like cool show
me the drive that's got the case studies
and the whatever and then they're ready
to go and you don't have any of that
stuff because you frequently don't at
that stage they tend to get frustrated
or whatever so you have to really vet
the sales folks that like build those
relationships and they just have a
constant disciplined level of activity
because you can't be the person who's
got like three Deals in the pipeline and
you're like that's it for the quarter
and then something trips the last month
because you know all that outside of
your control and then suddenly they're
not hitting their numbers you got to s
be constantly moving constantly
circulating constantly asking those
questions getting out um and so I think
when you're interviewing that sales team
what you're looking for is essentially
an entrepreneurial Spirit like are they
willing to get in the car and drive over
to the Issa chapter meeting and sit in
the back and not Pitch anybody but maybe
they paid for the coffee and the donuts
and they just start putting time on the
ground and and I I'm a big proponent of
every rep having kind of their own
little field budget and you can of
course vet how they're spending it
please don't spend it all on a golf
outing but you know like you need to
have uh you need to have that Hunter uh
and farmer Spirit right it's going to
take time and they got to be curious
that's super hard it's super hard to
find because you can't train curiosity
I've tried you sort of either are or you
aren't um and you so you're going to
have to look for that sales team that
can do that you know and
also they're supportive because if
they're curious they want to know that
story that you've built and you want to
train them and that product marketing
team is also going to be part of the uh
sales enablement
process yes to all of this yes no it is
a lot but I think it's just so nice so
my last question for you George because
we could go all day and I as much as I
would love that we could Joe Rogan this
it would be great but but we got jobs
scary we got jobs jobs we got jobs um my
last question for you around this is
then if you're not bringing in the sales
team Until the End essentially and
scaling that up then how are you selling
throughout are you or are you putting
sales kind of on hold until you get the
yeah I on hold I think I think you are
probably the transition from the founder
lead sales into sales is going to be a
very close shadowing of your first two
sellers right and they're those curious
Hunters that they got that
entrepreneurial drive and they're going
to Shadow the hell out of those two
Founders as they try to do do the
Indiana Jones and switch out the
founders and put in the sales team but
they have to be close listeners and they
and you really have to drill them on
that story and you have to get that
discipline you can't just be like I
hired sales teams this is what we do go
like you if you care about the story and
all this world building that you're
doing you're going to coach them and set
them up for success and you're also
going to try to set sure kpis but kpis
only look in the rear view right you're
going to work on what are the leading
indicators not how many dials are you
making but like what are the levers that
you can pull when you're trying to
adjust the numbers here does this mean
you we need to adjust your field
marketing strategy to to reach a
different audience a different number of
people do we need to spend less on this
more on that um I really think you got
to work with that team and I think if
you do it this way and you've taken your
time ideally you get this beautiful
thing where sales and marketing
are Marching to the same sheet of music
because most of the time it's like this
right you hired sales first and they're
just going out and saying whatever they
want because they weren't equipped with
the story and then marketing's like oh
we got to Pivot and we got to like
change our messaging and they go do the
website and it says this and these
people are promising that well it's a
lot of friction right because I was
promised this and I finally booked a
demo call and this isn't what I signed
up for like wait what like it's very
discordant it's very uh it's a very hard
entry and that is very hard to recover
from because as soon as you start
creating that friction you've SE doubt
into the prospect's mind and they're
like I don't know if these people know
what they're doing and then it's then
uphill from there I have so many
thoughts and I'm trying to prioritize
them because we are at time I think
we're just gonna have to pick up this
conversation George this is so helpful
for folks to start thinking the
differently of not hiring that sales
team first but thinking about how to
hire marketing first get that messaging
in lock step with your founder as your
founder gets out there and continues to
sell and honing that while as you bring
in customer success getting that
messaging dialed in bringing in product
and then bringing in sales to take that
off of the founder and being able to go
and run with it oh my gosh we are
flipping the whole Playbook y'all 3.0 is
here and we are here for it thank you so
much George where can people find you if
they don't yeah only on LinkedIn because
I ain't got time for anything else um
but so that or you can listen to you can
listen to me rant with my co-host on
bare Knuckles and brast taxs yes yes
dial on into that one for sure I know
that I do it's so good so so good you
got a taste of it here today but just oh
double whammy over there it's great uh
before we go George my last question for
you because you're more than a marketer
uh you're more than a co-host you're
more than all of these amazing things
you do um what's currently bringing you
Joy outside of
work oh yeah I mean obviously I like
books because these are all real books
behind me so this year I have started to
do book book projects which is like a
more intentional way of reading so I
wanted to read peral Everett's uh new
novel James but I reread Huckleberry
Finn first and then James which is the
retelling of the story from Jim's
perspective uh so that was really fun to
hold those side by side of my head the
next one is uh the full year project is
I'm trying to work through all of
Shakespeare's plays by taking them with
me so that I don't check my phone when
I'm standing in line at the airport so
we'll see oh I need follow up with you
on that I sort of had a moment of
obsession through high school and
college on Shakespeare so we are going
to circle back oh so good George I'm so
so grateful thank you to all of our
listeners and the people who joined us
today we see you Michael and Linda and
Danny and Elijah for holding down the
four we appreciate you all so much if
you liked this episode please like
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brought to you by mkg marketing the
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complex Brands get found via SEO and
digital ads this episode is by me car
guard CEO and co-founder of mkg
marketing music mix and mastering done
by Elijah drown my podcast sidekick and
if you'd like to be a guest JY I'd love
to have you on see you all next time
thanks
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