WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.170 --> 00:00:05.370 Welcome to The Chemical Show, the podcast where Chemical means business. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:09.720 I'm your host, Victoria Meyer, bringing you stories and insights 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:13.590 from leaders driving innovation and growth across the chemical industry. 00:00:14.520 --> 00:00:18.840 Each week we explore key trends, real world challenges, and the 00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:20.700 strategies that make an impact. 00:00:20.910 --> 00:00:21.750 Let's get started. 00:00:23.253 --> 00:00:26.163 Victoria: Welcome back to The Chemical Show where Leaders Talk business. 00:00:26.493 --> 00:00:31.143 Today I am speaking with Jeff Cher, who is, has navigated the path 00:00:31.143 --> 00:00:35.253 from the army into being corporate leader and now is a leadership 00:00:35.253 --> 00:00:37.053 expert running his own business. 00:00:37.293 --> 00:00:41.803 Jeff has recently published a book, firm Feedback in a Fragile World, which 00:00:41.803 --> 00:00:43.573 we will link to in our show notes. 00:00:43.873 --> 00:00:48.133 And we're gonna be having a great conversation about leadership feedback 00:00:48.163 --> 00:00:52.123 and frankly, how we all can be successful in our careers and leading teams. 00:00:52.123 --> 00:00:54.343 So Jeff, welcome to the Chemical Show. 00:00:54.988 --> 00:00:57.748 Jeff: Man, it is good to be with you, Victoria. 00:00:57.748 --> 00:01:02.908 I love what you're doing to support your industry and certainly to support leaders. 00:01:02.958 --> 00:01:06.528 Everything rises and falls at the hand of a leader, and I'm 00:01:06.528 --> 00:01:07.638 looking forward to the discussion. 00:01:08.433 --> 00:01:09.093 Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. 00:01:09.093 --> 00:01:12.063 I'm so glad that you're here and of course, you yourself host 00:01:12.063 --> 00:01:13.443 a really successful podcasts. 00:01:13.443 --> 00:01:16.068 Um, And so we might get a chance to talk about that a little bit and 00:01:16.068 --> 00:01:19.818 certainly wanna give, encourage people to listen to your podcast as well. 00:01:20.148 --> 00:01:20.508 Jeff: Sure. 00:01:21.108 --> 00:01:21.588 Victoria: Absolutely. 00:01:21.858 --> 00:01:24.198 So Jeff, what's your origin story? 00:01:24.858 --> 00:01:27.198 What got you onto the path that you are today? 00:01:28.225 --> 00:01:31.615 Jeff: I'll give you the Cliffs notes 'cause that could be a long episode. 00:01:31.645 --> 00:01:35.255 But, I grew up in southwestern Pennsylvania, about 20 00:01:35.255 --> 00:01:36.755 miles south of Pittsburgh. 00:01:37.445 --> 00:01:39.185 Grew up in rural America. 00:01:39.385 --> 00:01:40.585 Born into poverty. 00:01:41.155 --> 00:01:43.885 Had, two parents that never worked a day in my life. 00:01:43.885 --> 00:01:48.325 A mom that battled a disease called lupus, a dad that battled chronic 00:01:48.325 --> 00:01:53.672 osteoarthritis that led to, tons of surgeries on his feet and amputation. 00:01:54.072 --> 00:01:57.012 It was really, really rough, uh, growing up. 00:01:57.297 --> 00:02:02.007 You know, when I became a teenager and had some freedom, the things got worse. 00:02:02.137 --> 00:02:03.457 There wasn't a lot of direction. 00:02:03.457 --> 00:02:07.717 My parents were good people, uh, but they were literally fighting for survival. 00:02:08.227 --> 00:02:12.567 And, being a teenager with not a lot of direction led to a lot of bad decisions. 00:02:12.567 --> 00:02:12.627 I. 00:02:12.868 --> 00:02:16.168 brushes with the law, the wrong friend groups, you name it. 00:02:16.288 --> 00:02:21.208 Uh, I felt like me and my brother kind of felt like the walls were caving in on us. 00:02:21.298 --> 00:02:24.658 And when I graduated from high school, I never really saw 00:02:24.658 --> 00:02:26.788 college as an opportunity. 00:02:26.818 --> 00:02:31.318 One because of affordability, but two, I just wasn't a great student. 00:02:31.888 --> 00:02:34.768 But I knew I wanted more and I didn't really know what to do. 00:02:34.948 --> 00:02:37.168 So I had a couple options. 00:02:37.168 --> 00:02:41.128 I could go into the coal mine, I could go into the steel mill, 00:02:41.618 --> 00:02:43.028 or I could join the military. 00:02:43.328 --> 00:02:47.108 And I joined the military just because I wanted to experience 00:02:47.108 --> 00:02:48.398 a something different. 00:02:48.938 --> 00:02:53.568 So I find myself in Fort Jackson, South Carolina, in basic training, 00:02:53.688 --> 00:02:57.378 running Tank Hill, and doing all the things that a new soldier does and. 00:02:57.883 --> 00:03:01.363 After I transitioned from the military, I was gonna use that GI bill to go 00:03:01.363 --> 00:03:03.013 to college, which was unheard of. 00:03:03.013 --> 00:03:07.333 Like nobody had ever done that in my family, but I had this GI bill, 00:03:07.333 --> 00:03:08.683 so I was gonna give it a shot. 00:03:09.133 --> 00:03:13.563 And I was, a few weeks from starting and my dad called and made me aware they 00:03:13.563 --> 00:03:15.423 were sending my mom home in hospice. 00:03:15.783 --> 00:03:19.583 And we had gotten that call before, where she would get really, really sick. 00:03:19.943 --> 00:03:22.973 This time it was different 'cause this time would be the time that my 00:03:22.973 --> 00:03:25.313 dad was also having a leg amputation. 00:03:25.553 --> 00:03:28.733 And Wow, my mom was being sent home in hospice. 00:03:28.938 --> 00:03:30.438 Victoria: Gosh, that is a lot 00:03:30.683 --> 00:03:31.583 Jeff: it's a lot. 00:03:31.758 --> 00:03:33.798 Victoria: and a young adult to grapple with. 00:03:34.283 --> 00:03:34.823 Jeff: Yeah. 00:03:34.883 --> 00:03:37.493 And I mean, so you have all of this going on. 00:03:37.493 --> 00:03:41.513 My brother's in a career, so I did what anybody would do and I put college 00:03:41.513 --> 00:03:46.613 on the back burner and I helped get all the nurses set up and get things 00:03:46.613 --> 00:03:51.053 a little bit stabilized, helping my dad through, rehabbing, you know, 00:03:51.053 --> 00:03:54.443 how to figure out how to use an artificial leg and all this stuff. 00:03:55.043 --> 00:03:58.103 And, um, I didn't wanna be a burden on my, on my parents. 00:03:58.103 --> 00:04:01.223 So I went and looked for a seasonal job. 00:04:01.823 --> 00:04:05.243 I didn't have a lot of skill, so I needed some kind of grunt work. 00:04:05.363 --> 00:04:10.043 And I ended up applying to be a truck driver at Cintas Uniform Company. 00:04:10.673 --> 00:04:15.833 And what I thought was gonna be a seasonal job ended up being nearly a 25 00:04:15.833 --> 00:04:18.983 year career in that Fortune 500 company. 00:04:19.193 --> 00:04:19.973 And I went from. 00:04:20.693 --> 00:04:25.673 Entry level fill in truck driver to a senior leader in that company. 00:04:25.853 --> 00:04:30.293 And it's, it's not because I'm anything amazing, I worked hard. 00:04:30.633 --> 00:04:36.543 But I had that level of success because I had leaders that, had a lot of belief in 00:04:36.543 --> 00:04:39.603 me and supported me along that journey. 00:04:39.823 --> 00:04:42.553 And I thought I was gonna retire from that company. 00:04:42.703 --> 00:04:45.853 And in early 2019, I started a leadership podcast. 00:04:46.363 --> 00:04:49.423 To kind of give back to what's been given to me. 00:04:49.993 --> 00:04:55.543 And that led to a lot of great feedback and a side hustle of doing leadership 00:04:55.543 --> 00:04:58.253 trainings and, executive coaching. 00:04:58.463 --> 00:05:04.073 And in December of 2019, I felt the, the conviction very strong to leave the 00:05:04.073 --> 00:05:09.443 company I loved and all the Unvested stock and the risk of starting your own company. 00:05:09.443 --> 00:05:12.623 And I branched out and started, uh, Jeff Hancher Enterprises 00:05:12.623 --> 00:05:14.783 and it's been an amazing ride. 00:05:14.783 --> 00:05:15.023 So. 00:05:15.548 --> 00:05:15.758 Victoria: That 00:05:15.863 --> 00:05:17.603 Jeff: That's kind of the cliff notes. 00:05:17.828 --> 00:05:18.488 Victoria: Yeah. 00:05:18.548 --> 00:05:18.938 Yeah. 00:05:18.938 --> 00:05:20.948 I mean, I think it's great and I think, um. 00:05:21.668 --> 00:05:28.598 your point, there are people in our lives along the way that are powerful 00:05:28.598 --> 00:05:30.668 stewards of our journey, right? 00:05:30.803 --> 00:05:30.893 Jeff: Hmm. 00:05:30.968 --> 00:05:33.878 Victoria: us the right support, the right mentorship, the right belief, 00:05:33.978 --> 00:05:35.658 because who would've thought, right? 00:05:35.748 --> 00:05:39.228 That you'd go from a seasonal worker 00:05:40.323 --> 00:05:40.623 Jeff: Yeah. 00:05:40.878 --> 00:05:43.698 Victoria: uh, a senior leader, a and then, and then beyond. 00:05:43.698 --> 00:05:44.658 So that's really cool. 00:05:45.018 --> 00:05:45.318 Jeff: Yeah. 00:05:45.738 --> 00:05:47.418 Victoria: you know, when we think about this, and of course 00:05:47.418 --> 00:05:48.438 you've been working a long time. 00:05:48.438 --> 00:05:49.668 You started out in the military. 00:05:50.853 --> 00:05:51.993 different today? 00:05:52.053 --> 00:05:52.353 Right? 00:05:52.353 --> 00:05:55.993 So when you look at leadership, and I know you're a student, of leadership, 00:05:56.413 --> 00:06:00.163 what's different about leadership today versus one, what it was 25 years ago, 00:06:00.245 --> 00:06:02.495 Jeff: I say it's never been harder to lead. 00:06:02.572 --> 00:06:06.892 make no mistake, we are very still, very much so post pandemic. 00:06:07.342 --> 00:06:09.742 You know, are we coming back to the office? 00:06:09.802 --> 00:06:11.542 Are we still gonna stay hybrid? 00:06:11.542 --> 00:06:12.652 Is it gonna be a blend? 00:06:12.937 --> 00:06:15.277 Well, if you make me come back to the office, I'm quitting. 00:06:15.367 --> 00:06:17.317 I don't wanna come back to the office. 00:06:17.437 --> 00:06:21.007 You know, we had to, we, we had to battle through the great resignation. 00:06:21.287 --> 00:06:25.427 Probably every leader listening to this episode has an open requisition. 00:06:25.697 --> 00:06:26.987 They're not fully staffed. 00:06:27.287 --> 00:06:30.527 It's harder to attract top talent than ever before. 00:06:30.587 --> 00:06:33.977 It's harder to retain top talent than ever before. 00:06:34.237 --> 00:06:38.887 And leaders are tasked, uh, like never before with these types 00:06:38.887 --> 00:06:41.017 of challenges, mental health. 00:06:41.557 --> 00:06:45.637 It, the numbers of mental health are on the rise like Neville never before. 00:06:45.637 --> 00:06:46.447 And guess what? 00:06:46.837 --> 00:06:51.037 Mental health is coming into your workplace and leaders that are quote 00:06:51.037 --> 00:06:56.257 unquote unqualified to manage that are needing to lead teams that have that. 00:06:56.587 --> 00:07:01.417 And this is left a fear, I think, in leaders of don't rock the boat, 00:07:01.627 --> 00:07:03.187 just get through another day. 00:07:03.407 --> 00:07:05.267 Don't call out the problem. 00:07:05.267 --> 00:07:08.027 Don't challenge people just. 00:07:08.522 --> 00:07:12.812 Don't cause don't no ripples like, and what we know is, is that, 00:07:12.872 --> 00:07:14.462 uh, that's not good leadership. 00:07:14.942 --> 00:07:17.342 You know, we're all a product of feedback. 00:07:17.342 --> 00:07:19.502 We're all a product of a tough conversation. 00:07:19.742 --> 00:07:23.502 But I think now more than ever, leaders are fearful of it, because things 00:07:23.502 --> 00:07:26.712 are already so fragile, they just don't wanna rock the boat anymore. 00:07:26.862 --> 00:07:28.062 There's plenty of challenges. 00:07:28.062 --> 00:07:29.022 Leaders are navigating. 00:07:29.607 --> 00:07:29.847 Victoria: Yeah. 00:07:29.847 --> 00:07:33.087 That's so interesting because, you know, I, I certainly hear, and you 00:07:33.087 --> 00:07:34.647 hear it from both sides, right? 00:07:34.647 --> 00:07:39.207 With where people struggle with having a not great leader and a not 00:07:39.207 --> 00:07:42.467 great boss, and they can't believe, certain things that are happening or 00:07:42.467 --> 00:07:43.937 that certain people get away with. 00:07:43.937 --> 00:07:47.627 And then, you know, on the same side, uh, leaders, leaders are struggling. 00:07:47.897 --> 00:07:50.797 So, you kind of touched on some of these things, but. 00:07:51.357 --> 00:07:54.297 We've got this whole aspect of all these changes. 00:07:54.357 --> 00:07:55.497 You've touched on some of them. 00:07:55.807 --> 00:07:58.957 I think about ai, digitization, the whole return to work. 00:07:59.077 --> 00:07:59.917 Are you in the office? 00:07:59.917 --> 00:08:00.457 Are you not in the 00:08:00.607 --> 00:08:00.687 Jeff: Hmm. 00:08:00.787 --> 00:08:02.287 Victoria: What the holy heck are you doing? 00:08:02.727 --> 00:08:02.847 Jeff: Hmm. 00:08:02.917 --> 00:08:08.257 Victoria: certainly in the chemical industry, we're in a period of right? 00:08:08.257 --> 00:08:10.567 So tariff supply chain, 00:08:10.642 --> 00:08:11.002 Jeff: Hmm. 00:08:11.287 --> 00:08:15.037 Victoria: depending on where you sit, there's some major shutdowns taking place. 00:08:15.077 --> 00:08:15.557 As. 00:08:16.022 --> 00:08:17.942 The world shifts a bit. 00:08:18.332 --> 00:08:24.272 How is that influencing corporations and leaders when 00:08:24.272 --> 00:08:27.182 they think about going to work and 00:08:27.467 --> 00:08:27.767 Jeff: Hmm. 00:08:27.812 --> 00:08:28.712 Victoria: lead effectively? 00:08:28.712 --> 00:08:30.362 What does that even look like today? 00:08:30.857 --> 00:08:33.747 Jeff: Yeah, it's challenging, because, uh, guess what, last 00:08:33.747 --> 00:08:34.952 I checked, leaders are human. 00:08:35.782 --> 00:08:37.972 They have feelings, they have emotions. 00:08:38.032 --> 00:08:42.202 You know, leader leadership can be a heavy load, but what I've learned about the 00:08:42.202 --> 00:08:45.952 greatest leaders is it's not the load that weighs you down, it's how you carry it. 00:08:46.532 --> 00:08:50.912 You know, if you wear a backpack low to your back and there's 50 pounds in it, 00:08:50.912 --> 00:08:55.152 it's gonna feel like a hundred, that same 50 pounds though if it's secured 00:08:55.152 --> 00:08:59.172 tightly to your back and high on your shoulders, it might only feel like 20. 00:08:59.577 --> 00:09:02.277 It's not the load that weighs you down, it's how you carry it. 00:09:02.397 --> 00:09:04.617 Here's, here's the thing about adversity. 00:09:05.257 --> 00:09:08.797 The greater the adversity, the greater the opportunity for impact. 00:09:09.277 --> 00:09:12.007 And I, I'll tell a story to drive this point. 00:09:12.637 --> 00:09:17.377 You know, if you think about, , a trauma surgeon, you know, this is somebody that's 00:09:17.377 --> 00:09:22.657 spent 10 to 13 years of their life to get started to be good at what they do. 00:09:22.657 --> 00:09:25.387 This is a person that covers the most traumatic. 00:09:25.732 --> 00:09:27.772 Events that come through an emergency room. 00:09:27.772 --> 00:09:31.282 This is gunshots stabs, head on collisions. 00:09:31.562 --> 00:09:37.862 They've been trained to take care of the most adverse acute health situations 00:09:37.862 --> 00:09:39.092 that come through the hospital. 00:09:39.722 --> 00:09:46.142 And can you imagine being a, a trauma surgeon and day after day, day after 00:09:46.142 --> 00:09:51.812 day, day after day, not one case comes through the er and you find 00:09:51.812 --> 00:09:53.432 yourself one day sitting there. 00:09:53.822 --> 00:09:58.382 As the trauma surgeon and you look over to the nurse and you say, this really stinks. 00:09:59.432 --> 00:10:02.102 And she says, or he says, what stinks? 00:10:02.942 --> 00:10:04.742 There's no trauma cases coming in. 00:10:05.792 --> 00:10:09.962 And the nurse says to you, the trauma surgeon, are you saying 00:10:10.172 --> 00:10:12.032 that you want people to get hurt? 00:10:12.755 --> 00:10:17.018 And you, the doctor sit there and you think about that and you say, that 00:10:17.018 --> 00:10:19.898 is kind of a, a crazy thing to say. 00:10:20.313 --> 00:10:20.603 Victoria: Yeah. 00:10:20.798 --> 00:10:25.208 Jeff: I really don't want people to get hurt, but it's what I've been built to do. 00:10:26.228 --> 00:10:31.508 So much so that if trauma's not happening in this city, I'm 00:10:31.508 --> 00:10:34.088 gonna go find a city where it is. 00:10:34.718 --> 00:10:35.258 Why? 00:10:35.468 --> 00:10:38.198 Because I've dedicated my life to this. 00:10:38.888 --> 00:10:41.168 It's what I'm good at, it's what I'm built to do. 00:10:41.438 --> 00:10:45.428 I can make a difference in the most serious of situations. 00:10:46.388 --> 00:10:49.628 If a leader takes this posture, I. 00:10:50.318 --> 00:10:55.328 When the chemical industry is under attack, it's under political strain. 00:10:55.718 --> 00:10:57.758 You, all of these things are happening. 00:10:57.998 --> 00:11:02.408 There's gonna be a leader that represents a brand that's gonna look at all this 00:11:02.408 --> 00:11:04.778 adversity and say, this is my moment. 00:11:05.528 --> 00:11:08.498 This is the opportunity that I've been waiting for. 00:11:08.948 --> 00:11:12.878 And, and I will tell you, when you take on this posture, what we know 00:11:12.878 --> 00:11:17.348 is, is that everybody listening to this show is gonna face adversity. 00:11:17.738 --> 00:11:20.498 You're gonna face death of somebody that you love dearly. 00:11:21.068 --> 00:11:24.278 There's people right now that have just been told that their 00:11:24.278 --> 00:11:26.498 15-year-old is addicted to drugs. 00:11:27.038 --> 00:11:31.658 There's somebody listening to this show that have just been told that the, their 00:11:31.688 --> 00:11:34.478 husband or wife has stage four cancer. 00:11:34.958 --> 00:11:36.818 This is real Victoria. 00:11:36.823 --> 00:11:40.178 This is the real work force that we're leading. 00:11:40.928 --> 00:11:41.918 But here's what I know. 00:11:42.548 --> 00:11:44.468 None of us are gonna escape tragedy. 00:11:44.798 --> 00:11:46.898 None of us are gonna escape adversity. 00:11:47.378 --> 00:11:51.218 There's gonna be competitive pressure, political distress, social injustice. 00:11:51.338 --> 00:11:53.618 It's all gonna happen and it's gonna keep happening. 00:11:54.158 --> 00:11:56.588 The leader that steps up and says, you know what? 00:11:56.978 --> 00:11:59.168 This is my opportunity to shine. 00:11:59.768 --> 00:12:04.388 I have developed myself in a way that this adversity is actually, it's 00:12:04.388 --> 00:12:06.158 gonna give me a competitive advantage. 00:12:06.398 --> 00:12:09.728 Those are the leaders with that mindset that are gonna win and dominate. 00:12:10.238 --> 00:12:13.058 Victoria: so, so it prompts a couple questions here from 00:12:13.058 --> 00:12:14.918 me, Jeff, which is number one. 00:12:15.863 --> 00:12:18.833 How do you develop those skills? 00:12:19.073 --> 00:12:19.493 Jeff: Mm-hmm. 00:12:19.493 --> 00:12:23.033 Victoria: And number two, do you recognize the opportunity 00:12:23.033 --> 00:12:24.893 and when to apply those skills? 00:12:24.893 --> 00:12:26.393 Because I think many of 00:12:26.438 --> 00:12:26.528 Jeff: Hmm. 00:12:26.753 --> 00:12:31.493 Victoria: excellent practitioners, but sometimes we just apply that 00:12:31.553 --> 00:12:34.768 at the wrong time in the wrong way and it screws things up, so, 00:12:34.958 --> 00:12:35.438 Jeff: Yeah. 00:12:35.453 --> 00:12:38.153 Victoria: how do you build the skills and how do you apply them correctly? 00:12:38.648 --> 00:12:41.168 Jeff: Man, that's, that's a great question. 00:12:41.168 --> 00:12:48.068 You know, I always say that everybody on Planet Earth is in one of four camps, and 00:12:48.068 --> 00:12:50.318 Camp one is, I hope it doesn't come up. 00:12:51.068 --> 00:12:53.558 Camp two is, if it comes up, I'll wing it. 00:12:54.338 --> 00:12:57.758 Camp three is, if it comes up, I'm ready to talk about it. 00:12:57.848 --> 00:12:59.498 But then there's Camp four people. 00:13:00.008 --> 00:13:04.118 And Camp four people have this mindset of, if it doesn't come up. 00:13:04.643 --> 00:13:08.333 I'm bringing it up, not because I'm arrogant, because I see it 00:13:08.333 --> 00:13:10.283 as a duty and an obligation. 00:13:10.553 --> 00:13:16.223 Think of somebody, um, you know, you're at Walmart and somebody yells, help, help. 00:13:16.223 --> 00:13:17.153 They're not breathing. 00:13:18.113 --> 00:13:23.993 And you know, CPR, you've been trained in CPR and you hear this 00:13:23.993 --> 00:13:26.573 cry for help in this moment. 00:13:26.633 --> 00:13:27.773 You're in camp four. 00:13:27.833 --> 00:13:31.673 'cause you know, CPR, you know how to use a defibrillator, so 00:13:31.673 --> 00:13:33.473 you run to the lifeless body. 00:13:33.743 --> 00:13:35.573 You're not thinking this is arrogant. 00:13:36.023 --> 00:13:36.383 You're not. 00:13:36.503 --> 00:13:38.873 You're not waiting for somebody else to do it. 00:13:39.353 --> 00:13:45.383 This is a Camp Four moment, so you run, you forget everything else, and you run to 00:13:45.383 --> 00:13:48.353 death and breathe life into it adversely. 00:13:48.353 --> 00:13:52.673 If you don't know CPR, you hope it, you are walking into Mar Walmart, 00:13:52.673 --> 00:13:54.743 hoping it doesn't ever come up. 00:13:55.043 --> 00:13:59.363 So then the question comes, which is your question, how do you get into Camp four? 00:13:59.783 --> 00:14:02.183 Well, it's really simple, but not easy. 00:14:02.978 --> 00:14:07.388 Camp four requires you to consume and to get around people that 00:14:07.388 --> 00:14:08.558 have been where you want to go. 00:14:09.218 --> 00:14:13.048 You know, this is this, I need to be hungry for knowledge. 00:14:13.658 --> 00:14:15.128 I need to be in the workshop. 00:14:15.128 --> 00:14:18.548 I need to be, and by the way, we're talking to people listening 00:14:18.548 --> 00:14:21.398 that believe in this, that's why they're listening to the show. 00:14:21.668 --> 00:14:23.078 But I need to get content. 00:14:23.108 --> 00:14:24.368 I need to watch YouTube. 00:14:24.548 --> 00:14:29.438 I need to pay out of my own pocket if need be to go to the leadership workshop. 00:14:29.783 --> 00:14:32.183 To hire the executive coach. 00:14:32.433 --> 00:14:32.793 Why? 00:14:32.793 --> 00:14:33.783 Because I know I can't. 00:14:33.783 --> 00:14:35.283 Do I need the knowledge? 00:14:35.563 --> 00:14:38.263 you're not gonna get something by doing nothing. 00:14:38.533 --> 00:14:43.603 So we have to invest in our growth, but it can't stop there because we're 00:14:43.603 --> 00:14:45.403 not here to win leadership trivia. 00:14:45.853 --> 00:14:50.473 You know, you can be book smart and not be effective as a leader. 00:14:50.683 --> 00:14:54.433 That would be like trying to be great at golf and reading Tiger Woods's golf book. 00:14:54.958 --> 00:14:57.448 That doesn't, that's never gonna make you a great golfer. 00:14:57.538 --> 00:15:00.658 It'll make you more knowledgeable about the game, and you might win 00:15:00.658 --> 00:15:04.198 trivia at night, but you're never gonna be an effective golfer. 00:15:04.348 --> 00:15:09.808 Now, if I could go play 18 rounds with Tiger every Sunday, the odds of me being 00:15:09.808 --> 00:15:11.758 a pretty good golfer are gonna go up. 00:15:12.088 --> 00:15:16.978 So you have to consume, but so many people spend their life consuming and 00:15:16.978 --> 00:15:21.868 never executing when you get mentorship, which is basically what people are 00:15:21.868 --> 00:15:23.518 doing by listening to this show. 00:15:24.028 --> 00:15:27.808 Is they're saying, I wanna get around people that have been where I want to go. 00:15:28.288 --> 00:15:32.308 So those are the staples that I would tell you that's gonna 00:15:32.308 --> 00:15:34.618 build a foundation of confidence. 00:15:35.038 --> 00:15:39.898 When you have confidence in something, that's where the execution comes to, 00:15:39.898 --> 00:15:41.698 which is the second part of your question. 00:15:42.028 --> 00:15:44.948 One of my favorite quotes is this, from Marcus Garvey. 00:15:44.948 --> 00:15:46.328 He said this once, he said. 00:15:46.838 --> 00:15:49.718 If you lack confidence in self, you're twice defeated in the 00:15:49.718 --> 00:15:54.338 race of life, but with confidence you have won before you start. 00:15:55.028 --> 00:16:00.488 This confidence thing is, is the ultimate wild card for anybody and especially 00:16:00.488 --> 00:16:04.688 a leader because when you have all of the knowledge and you understand 00:16:04.748 --> 00:16:10.298 through mentoring or leadership how to execute it, now you're in camp four and 00:16:10.298 --> 00:16:11.948 you can run into the biggest problem. 00:16:12.398 --> 00:16:13.508 Victoria: Yeah, that's really great. 00:16:13.748 --> 00:16:16.778 And I do think this whole aspect, you know, to me, I, it points 00:16:16.778 --> 00:16:20.198 to maybe a growth mindset and being around, , the right people. 00:16:20.528 --> 00:16:24.458 And you and I both know, having gone from corporate to entrepreneurship, 00:16:25.175 --> 00:16:27.485 first of all, inside of a corporation, you may or may not 00:16:27.485 --> 00:16:28.745 have those right people around you. 00:16:28.745 --> 00:16:31.115 I, I have had the opportunity in my career, 00:16:31.330 --> 00:16:31.550 Jeff: Hmm. 00:16:31.715 --> 00:16:35.465 Victoria: to have some great leaders and mentors who. 00:16:35.850 --> 00:16:39.270 Sewed into me who were great examples, who, when I had a 00:16:39.270 --> 00:16:41.160 question about all kinds of stuff. 00:16:41.160 --> 00:16:44.220 In fact, the thing that comes to mind is, uh, I met somebody a couple 00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:48.743 weeks ago in an event I was speaking at, and we were talking about his 00:16:48.773 --> 00:16:51.354 wife was going back into the office five days a week, blah, blah, blah. 00:16:51.359 --> 00:16:55.093 They have a young family and just this whole aspect of, managing a family 00:16:55.093 --> 00:16:59.383 while you're also corporate and and I said, you know, I still remember 00:16:59.383 --> 00:17:04.303 is I had some great women around me when my kids were very young. 00:17:04.543 --> 00:17:07.723 I mean today as well, but when my kids were very young and I was at Shell working 00:17:07.723 --> 00:17:13.153 in corporate, who basically taught me how to like have a nanny and what do I do with 00:17:13.153 --> 00:17:16.838 the nanny and how do I help balance this for my family because that was something. 00:17:17.698 --> 00:17:20.628 needed to learn, and I needed people to show me. 00:17:20.998 --> 00:17:21.418 Jeff: Mm-hmm. 00:17:21.588 --> 00:17:24.888 Victoria: some great leaders, uh, that help me with the commercial 00:17:24.888 --> 00:17:28.758 aspects of my business and commercial acuity, the great leaders that help 00:17:28.758 --> 00:17:31.098 me be a leader, a leader of people. 00:17:31.128 --> 00:17:31.518 Um, 00:17:31.938 --> 00:17:32.018 Jeff: Hmm, 00:17:32.088 --> 00:17:36.638 Victoria: I think this aspect of, of having that around you, and then 00:17:36.638 --> 00:17:39.098 if you don't have it, creating it, 00:17:39.788 --> 00:17:40.328 Jeff: Wow. 00:17:40.448 --> 00:17:43.658 Victoria: it inside your company, outside of your company, and, you 00:17:43.748 --> 00:17:43.988 Jeff: Mm-hmm. 00:17:44.543 --> 00:17:47.653 Victoria: As an entrepreneur running a small business, you have to go out 00:17:47.653 --> 00:17:52.498 to create that community and create that mentorship, and make that happen. 00:17:53.338 --> 00:17:54.268 Jeff: Man, that's so true. 00:17:54.268 --> 00:17:59.248 And think about like what you said, some of the things that you just said. 00:17:59.398 --> 00:18:01.108 They transcend business results. 00:18:01.843 --> 00:18:07.423 Like somebody that sat you down and said, this is how you can still be a good mom 00:18:07.928 --> 00:18:08.218 Victoria: Yeah. 00:18:08.443 --> 00:18:10.393 Jeff: and be successful in business. 00:18:10.963 --> 00:18:14.143 You know, I had a leader that took me in the men's room once and taught me 00:18:14.143 --> 00:18:19.873 how to tie a Windsor knot because I, I just became a white collar worker 00:18:20.203 --> 00:18:24.313 from a blue collar world, and I didn't know what collar stays were, 00:18:24.313 --> 00:18:26.563 and I didn't know how to tie a tie. 00:18:26.743 --> 00:18:29.743 I didn't know anything, and it wasn't his responsibility. 00:18:30.433 --> 00:18:30.883 Victoria: yeah. 00:18:31.078 --> 00:18:32.068 Jeff: me those things. 00:18:32.188 --> 00:18:37.528 He went beyond the business results to make deposits into me, and I'll bet, 00:18:37.558 --> 00:18:42.868 I'll bet this if, if I were to ask you or anybody listening to think about 00:18:43.138 --> 00:18:47.728 your Mount Rushmore of leaders, these are the people, for people that you 00:18:47.728 --> 00:18:52.948 would say, I would not be who I am if these people never came in my life. 00:18:53.608 --> 00:18:56.068 I'll bet you if I were to ask you the question, were those 00:18:56.068 --> 00:18:57.358 four people tough on you? 00:18:58.168 --> 00:18:59.308 They probably all were. 00:19:00.253 --> 00:19:03.283 But if I were to follow that up and say, did you know they cared? 00:19:03.883 --> 00:19:04.183 Yeah. 00:19:04.183 --> 00:19:06.613 Because they also taught me how to be a great mom, 00:19:06.928 --> 00:19:07.218 Victoria: Yeah. 00:19:07.243 --> 00:19:09.433 Jeff: and they also taught me how to tie a tie. 00:19:09.883 --> 00:19:14.833 And they also took me, this leader did to Joseph, a bank and taught me how to 00:19:14.833 --> 00:19:21.550 dress like, now here's what happens to your example, and this is why mentoring 00:19:21.610 --> 00:19:23.590 and getting around great leaders matters. 00:19:24.100 --> 00:19:27.310 Because when you achieve that, what you just talked about 00:19:27.310 --> 00:19:28.600 and what I just described. 00:19:29.320 --> 00:19:31.840 You're no longer a boss that people report to. 00:19:32.320 --> 00:19:35.080 You're a leader that people don't wanna let down. 00:19:35.860 --> 00:19:40.900 Now you wanna earn the right to have a tough conversation in the face 00:19:40.900 --> 00:19:44.990 of quiet, quitting, high turnover, , trying to attract top talent, 00:19:45.180 --> 00:19:48.060 you wanna be a leader that leads with confidence and 00:19:48.060 --> 00:19:50.070 doesn't fear tough feedback. 00:19:50.520 --> 00:19:53.130 Earn the right, because then you become a leader. 00:19:53.130 --> 00:19:55.260 People don't wanna let down, and we know. 00:19:55.755 --> 00:19:59.025 That the best recruiting and retention tool there is on planet 00:19:59.025 --> 00:20:01.275 Earth is the leader that's listening. 00:20:01.850 --> 00:20:02.120 Victoria: Yeah, 00:20:02.345 --> 00:20:02.735 Jeff: truth. 00:20:03.350 --> 00:20:03.950 Victoria: Absolutely. 00:20:04.190 --> 00:20:07.730 And so this is perhaps a bit of what your new book is about, right? 00:20:07.730 --> 00:20:10.460 So you've just published firm Feedback in a Fragile World. 00:20:10.760 --> 00:20:14.000 When we look across, heck, every industry, but let's talk 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:15.140 about the chemical industry. 00:20:15.140 --> 00:20:19.940 There's a lot of what we do that is kind of just required, right? 00:20:19.940 --> 00:20:23.270 We need to have a safe operating environment. 00:20:23.300 --> 00:20:28.770 Um, Compliance from a regulatory product perspective, dealing with operational 00:20:28.770 --> 00:20:33.234 complexity, safe and secure supply chains, so many different things. 00:20:33.654 --> 00:20:36.144 , Things can go right, things can go wrong when things go wrong. 00:20:36.994 --> 00:20:39.724 Tragedy can happen and, and of course we all seek to avoid that. 00:20:40.414 --> 00:20:41.974 How do you deliver that tough feedback? 00:20:42.004 --> 00:20:45.934 What is, is there a formula for tough feedback? 00:20:45.934 --> 00:20:51.414 Without breaking trust, or employee morale and continuing to build on that? 00:20:52.499 --> 00:20:53.939 Jeff: Yeah, there is a formula. 00:20:53.939 --> 00:20:59.469 You know, uh, the framework we talk about, in the book is that of expectations, 00:20:59.469 --> 00:21:00.909 feedback, and accountability. 00:21:01.719 --> 00:21:04.749 You know, making sure expectations are clear, reasonable. 00:21:05.224 --> 00:21:08.434 People understand why the expectation is good for them. 00:21:08.794 --> 00:21:12.604 They've been adequately trained to meet or exceed the expectation. 00:21:12.904 --> 00:21:19.104 But then this feedback piece, I'm a big fan of, frequent and scheduled one-on-one 00:21:19.104 --> 00:21:21.684 debriefs for everybody in your company. 00:21:22.134 --> 00:21:25.494 And I always get pushback and I'll hear people say, we don't have time for that. 00:21:25.974 --> 00:21:30.904 Well, then you need more leaders because at, well, last I checked, you're only as 00:21:30.904 --> 00:21:32.539 good as the people that you're developing. 00:21:33.164 --> 00:21:37.184 You could have the best product in the world, and if your leadership is 00:21:37.184 --> 00:21:40.214 weak, you're going to lose adversely. 00:21:40.724 --> 00:21:47.054 If you have superior leadership with moderate or, or even inadequate 00:21:47.054 --> 00:21:51.554 product in service, you're gonna be a fierce competitor because what 00:21:51.554 --> 00:21:53.354 we're talking about here is culture. 00:21:53.354 --> 00:21:56.874 And I talk about this in the book, but it, it leads to then, 00:21:56.874 --> 00:21:58.889 well, why is it that leaders fear. 00:21:59.604 --> 00:22:02.844 Or have this anxiety about having a tough conversation. 00:22:03.444 --> 00:22:07.644 You know, we've all had that tightness of the chest, that sweaty palm. 00:22:07.704 --> 00:22:11.884 Whenever you have to address that employee that, degraded you or 00:22:11.884 --> 00:22:15.514 interrupted you in front of everybody in the team meeting this morning, and 00:22:15.514 --> 00:22:19.084 by the way, there are peak performer and if they quit, we're gonna be screwed. 00:22:19.174 --> 00:22:22.414 That person, and we gotta have this tough conversation. 00:22:22.684 --> 00:22:24.904 I talk about the acronym FEAR in the book. 00:22:25.474 --> 00:22:28.444 And of why there's this feedback avoidance. 00:22:28.444 --> 00:22:29.734 The F is fallout. 00:22:30.074 --> 00:22:35.354 What if I have this hard conversation and people don't like me anymore, or 00:22:35.354 --> 00:22:38.174 it ruins my, my brand or my reputation? 00:22:38.474 --> 00:22:42.974 Then you have the E, which is emotion, which if I have this conversation 00:22:43.124 --> 00:22:47.474 and they get angry or they feel embarrassed, or if they cry. 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:49.059 Here's what I'll tell you. 00:22:49.059 --> 00:22:51.459 If you haven't made anybody cry in leadership yet, you're 00:22:51.459 --> 00:22:52.599 probably not doing it right. 00:22:52.959 --> 00:22:57.759 Not that we want people to cry, but we gotta have hard conversations. 00:22:58.329 --> 00:23:03.069 The A is amateur, which is probably a big one, and this doesn't 00:23:03.069 --> 00:23:05.009 mean, you're new to leadership. 00:23:05.069 --> 00:23:08.614 Amateur means you've never really been taught a framework 00:23:08.614 --> 00:23:10.019 of how to deliver feedback. 00:23:10.439 --> 00:23:13.889 You could be in leadership for 15 years, and believe me, these are 00:23:13.889 --> 00:23:15.629 the people coming to my workshops. 00:23:15.899 --> 00:23:18.929 Who at the end of a workshop say, nobody's ever told me this. 00:23:19.299 --> 00:23:19.379 Victoria: Hmm. 00:23:19.439 --> 00:23:21.359 Jeff: I know that's common response. 00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:23.879 So you might feel like an amateur. 00:23:23.969 --> 00:23:27.049 And an amateur means, you know what, I'm not gonna do anything 00:23:27.049 --> 00:23:28.759 'cause I'm afraid to get it wrong. 00:23:29.269 --> 00:23:32.749 But then you have the R, which is retaliation, which is very 00:23:32.749 --> 00:23:34.309 prominent in the corporate world. 00:23:34.909 --> 00:23:36.859 What if I have this conversation? 00:23:37.069 --> 00:23:43.459 It doesn't go like I want it to, and they report me to hr, or they tell my boss. 00:23:43.849 --> 00:23:44.569 You know what? 00:23:44.569 --> 00:23:45.769 I don't wanna rock the boat. 00:23:45.829 --> 00:23:47.059 I'm not gonna do anything. 00:23:47.569 --> 00:23:51.769 Well, the good news is this, if you have confidence, and we've already 00:23:51.769 --> 00:23:54.559 proven that the leaders that have made the biggest impact on you were tough 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:56.659 on you, that means you gotta get tough. 00:23:57.559 --> 00:23:57.829 What? 00:23:57.829 --> 00:24:01.009 What I'm not saying is be aggressive because there's a leader listening 00:24:01.009 --> 00:24:02.509 that says, see, I'm doing it right. 00:24:02.809 --> 00:24:05.569 I'm not talking about getting a stick out and whacking people. 00:24:05.959 --> 00:24:08.719 I'm talking about finding the balance of earning the right 00:24:08.719 --> 00:24:10.279 to have a tough conversation. 00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:12.319 That's the framework in the book. 00:24:12.934 --> 00:24:18.454 Expectations feedback, meaning feedback's not the same for any two people. 00:24:19.324 --> 00:24:23.374 You know, you Victoria might need supportive feedback in the morning, 00:24:23.374 --> 00:24:27.154 but by the time afternoon hits, you might need collaborative feedback. 00:24:27.694 --> 00:24:30.334 That new employee, they don't need collaborative feedback. 00:24:30.814 --> 00:24:33.544 They need directive feedback 'cause they don't know what they're doing. 00:24:34.114 --> 00:24:37.114 That peak performer that has stopped performing for you, 00:24:37.504 --> 00:24:38.884 they need supportive feedback. 00:24:39.364 --> 00:24:43.534 So we have to at least understand that there's multiple types of feedback and the 00:24:43.534 --> 00:24:47.344 best scenarios to deliver the feedback, which is what we talk about in the book. 00:24:47.764 --> 00:24:48.634 Victoria: Yeah, I like that. 00:24:48.784 --> 00:24:50.974 You know, and it's, it's actually a great segue to one of my other 00:24:50.974 --> 00:24:55.144 questions, which is gonna be around, you know, when people are under stress. 00:24:55.474 --> 00:25:00.094 Leaders, employees, everyone, we sometimes would, but if you're a 00:25:00.094 --> 00:25:03.724 leader under stress, a lot of times you revert to like your worst behaviors. 00:25:03.724 --> 00:25:03.934 Right? 00:25:03.934 --> 00:25:07.324 So you've been really good, great feedback, consistent. 00:25:07.574 --> 00:25:14.064 And then whatever your old comfortable habits, ways of communicating, ways 00:25:14.214 --> 00:25:19.434 of giving feedback, whether it's being directive or explosive or what have you. 00:25:20.094 --> 00:25:23.814 Often come through in those stress moments. 00:25:24.704 --> 00:25:27.504 do you maybe recover from that, right? 00:25:27.504 --> 00:25:33.554 If you recognize that, but also how does that change, the way feedback is received? 00:25:33.554 --> 00:25:35.384 How do you just find your path through it? 00:25:35.384 --> 00:25:38.234 Because the reality is we've all seen this, right? 00:25:38.234 --> 00:25:41.894 We've, we've lived it, we've experienced it, we've been it at times. 00:25:42.164 --> 00:25:42.644 Jeff: Oh yeah. 00:25:42.944 --> 00:25:43.904 Victoria: how do you navigate that? 00:25:44.564 --> 00:25:45.134 Jeff: Yeah. 00:25:45.164 --> 00:25:45.704 Well. 00:25:46.214 --> 00:25:49.664 What we know about the greatest leaders that have ever walked the planet 00:25:49.754 --> 00:25:51.704 is they all have one common thread. 00:25:51.704 --> 00:25:54.374 Probably many, but one of them is they're composed. 00:25:55.394 --> 00:26:00.224 Great leaders are composed, you know, rarely, rarely, not never, 00:26:00.224 --> 00:26:02.474 but rarely is anything personal. 00:26:02.667 --> 00:26:05.397 You know, a lot of times a leader can get bent outta shape 00:26:05.397 --> 00:26:06.717 because they become triggered. 00:26:07.182 --> 00:26:10.092 Because somebody said something they shouldn't have said, somebody did 00:26:10.092 --> 00:26:11.412 something they shouldn't have done. 00:26:11.772 --> 00:26:14.052 And we become emotionally triggered. 00:26:14.472 --> 00:26:16.092 Remember, remember this? 00:26:16.152 --> 00:26:19.002 Um, and this is gonna set somebody free, I hope today. 00:26:19.692 --> 00:26:21.312 They're not trying to hurt you. 00:26:21.942 --> 00:26:23.862 They're trying to help them. 00:26:24.852 --> 00:26:25.992 They're not trying to hurt you. 00:26:25.992 --> 00:26:27.252 They're trying to help them. 00:26:27.252 --> 00:26:28.512 This isn't personal. 00:26:28.662 --> 00:26:32.322 If they show up on your porch with clinch fist, now it's personal. 00:26:32.682 --> 00:26:34.452 It's rare that that's going to happen. 00:26:34.891 --> 00:26:36.211 Think, think about it this way. 00:26:36.634 --> 00:26:40.894 You, you're driving down the road one day and you see a stray dog. 00:26:41.854 --> 00:26:43.324 You can see its ribs. 00:26:43.894 --> 00:26:49.324 You can tell like this dog is probably days away from dying. 00:26:49.834 --> 00:26:50.914 It's been neglected. 00:26:51.874 --> 00:26:57.814 And so you pull the car over and you say, Hey, Skippy, jump in the car. 00:26:57.814 --> 00:26:58.834 I'm gonna save you. 00:26:59.734 --> 00:27:01.144 The dog's not jumping in the car. 00:27:01.684 --> 00:27:07.204 It's not doing that, so, so you walk over to the dog and you talk nice and 00:27:07.204 --> 00:27:10.774 you say, Hey, I'm here to help you look like you're having a bad time. 00:27:11.494 --> 00:27:14.794 And you go to pet the dog and what's that dog do? 00:27:15.214 --> 00:27:15.994 It bites you. 00:27:16.231 --> 00:27:18.481 and you say to yourself, how dare you? 00:27:18.961 --> 00:27:20.161 I'm just here to help. 00:27:20.671 --> 00:27:22.021 Well, why is the dog biting? 00:27:22.741 --> 00:27:27.541 Because it's been beaten, it's been neglected, it's been abused. 00:27:27.841 --> 00:27:29.311 It hasn't eaten in days. 00:27:29.792 --> 00:27:33.362 And here's the thing, you, you don't give up on the dog. 00:27:34.052 --> 00:27:39.149 You go and you get treats and you can maybe get a blanket and you sit down 00:27:39.149 --> 00:27:43.589 in a less intimidating posture and you start feeding the dog some treats. 00:27:43.889 --> 00:27:44.399 Why? 00:27:44.999 --> 00:27:48.449 Because it matters to you so much to save the dog. 00:27:48.989 --> 00:27:50.729 And you know, you have to build trust. 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:54.809 So over time, the dog starts to trust you and it gets in the car, 00:27:54.809 --> 00:27:55.859 and now you're able to help it. 00:27:55.874 --> 00:27:55.934 It. 00:27:56.624 --> 00:28:00.824 Now look all due respect to animals, but this is a dog. 00:28:01.604 --> 00:28:05.654 I find that too often leaders give up on people too fast. 00:28:06.434 --> 00:28:09.884 They're not trying to hurt you, they're trying to help them. 00:28:10.424 --> 00:28:12.434 That dog wasn't trying to hurt you. 00:28:12.794 --> 00:28:14.159 It was trying to protect itself. 00:28:15.829 --> 00:28:20.859 Composure is having a perspective that's completely different than average leaders 00:28:21.724 --> 00:28:24.364 that I'm not moved by my situation. 00:28:25.054 --> 00:28:29.134 And I always know I can either change my perspective or change my environment. 00:28:29.674 --> 00:28:32.737 This adversity, it sucks compared to what? 00:28:33.161 --> 00:28:33.971 That's freedom. 00:28:34.511 --> 00:28:35.141 This sucks. 00:28:35.141 --> 00:28:36.131 Compared to what? 00:28:36.521 --> 00:28:38.261 That employee just called me a jerk. 00:28:38.291 --> 00:28:39.221 That sucks. 00:28:39.461 --> 00:28:40.451 Compared to what? 00:28:40.907 --> 00:28:45.794 Fighting for your life in an emergency room, being in a foxhole, taking bullets. 00:28:45.794 --> 00:28:46.274 This sucks. 00:28:46.274 --> 00:28:47.204 Compared to what? 00:28:47.924 --> 00:28:51.434 Like we have to fight for perspective and we have to realize. 00:28:51.809 --> 00:28:56.699 We are leaders that have been put in this position to navigate challenges. 00:28:57.389 --> 00:29:00.569 You know, a fireman never says, oh, here goes the alarm again. 00:29:00.569 --> 00:29:02.579 Looks like we gotta go into a burning building. 00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:06.239 No, in some kind of sick way, they get excited about it. 00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:09.179 'cause it's what they're ex, it's what they get to do. 00:29:09.809 --> 00:29:14.039 When we feel this emotion that we're losing composure, that's 00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:18.719 when we gotta take a breath and we gotta check ourselves and we gotta 00:29:18.719 --> 00:29:20.069 build this level of confidence. 00:29:20.639 --> 00:29:23.789 And our, and change our perspective so that we can lead 00:29:23.789 --> 00:29:25.319 through the toughest of times. 00:29:25.769 --> 00:29:28.659 You know, we're not literally going into battle, that's a 00:29:28.659 --> 00:29:30.099 whole different level of stress. 00:29:30.649 --> 00:29:32.479 We're navigating business challenges. 00:29:32.479 --> 00:29:37.069 So that would be my advice to somebody that is fighting to not be so emotional. 00:29:37.639 --> 00:29:37.909 Victoria: Yeah. 00:29:37.909 --> 00:29:38.689 That's really great. 00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:41.779 So, you know, you've talked a lot about firm feedback and we've been talking 00:29:41.779 --> 00:29:44.119 about feedback and, and mentorship here. 00:29:44.929 --> 00:29:48.199 Can you share a story maybe from your own experience or from 00:29:48.229 --> 00:29:49.699 working with a client where. 00:29:50.569 --> 00:29:55.249 Giving or receiving feedback created a real breakthrough situation because 00:29:55.249 --> 00:29:58.909 I sometimes think, we think of feedback as a correction and you know, 00:29:58.919 --> 00:29:59.139 Jeff: Mm. 00:29:59.239 --> 00:30:01.389 Victoria: kind of keeping people on the, inside, the straight 00:30:01.389 --> 00:30:02.469 and narrow, so to speak. 00:30:02.469 --> 00:30:05.739 But when does feedback create breakthroughs? 00:30:05.769 --> 00:30:06.069 Do you have any 00:30:06.159 --> 00:30:06.429 Jeff: Hmm. 00:30:06.489 --> 00:30:06.849 Victoria: around that? 00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:08.479 Jeff: Chapter one. 00:30:08.899 --> 00:30:10.646 Yeah, so I'm a truck driver. 00:30:11.009 --> 00:30:12.989 I'm a blue collar guy. 00:30:12.989 --> 00:30:15.419 Dirty job, picking up nasty, dirty clothes. 00:30:15.962 --> 00:30:19.472 I would see these really fancy looking people around the office. 00:30:19.472 --> 00:30:20.957 You know, they wore nice suits and. 00:30:22.232 --> 00:30:25.202 Nice ties and had shiny shoes and they drove these real fancy cars. 00:30:25.202 --> 00:30:26.852 You probably heard of 'em, Honda Accords. 00:30:26.852 --> 00:30:29.492 I mean, these were fancy people. 00:30:29.642 --> 00:30:32.732 And I inquired about who these people were and I heard that they were 00:30:32.732 --> 00:30:34.532 salespeople and I wanted to be that. 00:30:35.372 --> 00:30:41.179 And I finally get my break and I have a sales manager, Sean, and 00:30:41.509 --> 00:30:43.039 you know, he took a chance on me. 00:30:43.349 --> 00:30:44.339 I was a good driver. 00:30:44.339 --> 00:30:48.869 I, I won awards and trophies and I was a hard worker that was known. 00:30:49.244 --> 00:30:50.774 But he, he was taking a chance. 00:30:50.774 --> 00:30:55.544 I had no sales experience at all, and uh, this guy would stay after 00:30:55.544 --> 00:30:57.374 work with me and role play with me. 00:30:58.124 --> 00:31:01.934 He would teach me interest, creating statements and how to overcome objections. 00:31:02.504 --> 00:31:07.994 He would jump in the car with me and go on sales calls and coach me after a call. 00:31:08.054 --> 00:31:11.504 He would take sales calls and let me observe the master doing it. 00:31:11.864 --> 00:31:15.284 He's the guy I told you about that taught me how to tie winds or not. 00:31:15.749 --> 00:31:18.929 They told me what a collar stay was, so my collars weren't flapping. 00:31:19.139 --> 00:31:22.019 He's the guy that took me to Joseph, a bank on a lunch break 00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:25.559 once, and taught me that your belt and shoes were supposed to match. 00:31:25.829 --> 00:31:29.489 And the difference between a sport coat and a suit, you know, this is a guy 00:31:29.489 --> 00:31:35.789 that went way beyond a balance sheet and a key performance indicator, and 00:31:35.939 --> 00:31:41.519 I gained so much respect for him, and I was fighting hard in this position, 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:44.439 Victoria, because I came from nothing. 00:31:45.219 --> 00:31:47.919 I have two sick parents that are still living in the high 00:31:47.919 --> 00:31:49.539 rise one bedroom apartment. 00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:55.449 My mom, um, many times would cut pills in half because spread 'em out. 00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:57.339 'cause the copays were so expensive. 00:31:57.819 --> 00:32:00.219 Like, I wasn't trying to buy a Rolex. 00:32:00.339 --> 00:32:02.439 I was trying to give my family a better life. 00:32:02.594 --> 00:32:02.884 Victoria: Yeah. 00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:07.599 Jeff: And I was on my way to my first sales call one morning and I got a 00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:11.556 call from my dad and he said, um, I just arrived at the hospital with mom. 00:32:12.351 --> 00:32:15.411 And, um, Jeff, I th I think it's different this time. 00:32:15.847 --> 00:32:19.927 And so I did what I did hundreds of times and I drove to the 00:32:19.927 --> 00:32:22.447 hospital and dad was right. 00:32:22.864 --> 00:32:24.184 You know, this day it was different. 00:32:24.517 --> 00:32:26.917 This was the day that I would hold my mom for the last 00:32:26.917 --> 00:32:29.037 time, and, uh, she would pass. 00:32:29.384 --> 00:32:35.444 And Victoria it broke me in, in every way imaginable. 00:32:35.654 --> 00:32:36.584 It broke me. 00:32:37.064 --> 00:32:39.914 I went into a very dark place emotionally. 00:32:40.514 --> 00:32:42.674 I didn't care about the Honda Accord anymore. 00:32:43.064 --> 00:32:45.284 I didn't care about the fancy suits anymore. 00:32:45.434 --> 00:32:48.884 The very thing that I was working so hard for it was gone. 00:32:49.244 --> 00:32:50.804 I didn't care about work anymore. 00:32:51.184 --> 00:32:51.474 Victoria: Yeah. 00:32:51.674 --> 00:32:54.014 Jeff: I would show up, I would be a shell of a person. 00:32:54.427 --> 00:32:55.387 I was emotional. 00:32:55.777 --> 00:32:58.297 I would, uh, I would sit in the stall sometimes and cry 00:32:58.627 --> 00:33:00.944 at work like I was a mess. 00:33:01.336 --> 00:33:03.526 And one day Sean pulled me into his office. 00:33:03.526 --> 00:33:06.919 This was after about two weeks after we had buried my mom, and 00:33:06.919 --> 00:33:09.529 he said, um, enough's enough. 00:33:10.229 --> 00:33:10.859 Enough's enough. 00:33:11.772 --> 00:33:13.752 I'm not gonna let you continue to do this. 00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:17.629 My heart breaks for you and your family, but I've spent the last 00:33:17.629 --> 00:33:19.969 how many months pouring into you. 00:33:20.809 --> 00:33:22.099 I see your potential. 00:33:22.369 --> 00:33:24.019 You have an 18 month, year old son. 00:33:24.287 --> 00:33:25.637 I have an 18 month old son. 00:33:26.327 --> 00:33:27.797 You want to have a more family. 00:33:28.547 --> 00:33:31.997 Your dad is still here and he needs you, and you're about to throw all 00:33:31.997 --> 00:33:36.127 of this away, and I'm not gonna sit by and watch it, but you know what? 00:33:36.127 --> 00:33:39.637 I'm gonna give you 24 hours and we're gonna meet again, and 00:33:39.637 --> 00:33:40.897 you're gonna make a decision. 00:33:41.304 --> 00:33:43.824 You're either gonna become the person that I know you're capable 00:33:43.824 --> 00:33:46.284 of being or you can't be on my team. 00:33:46.894 --> 00:33:48.244 This was a crossroads. 00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:49.769 I thought about quitting. 00:33:50.129 --> 00:33:51.389 Who's this guy to tell me? 00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:53.189 I'm not gonna be told what to do. 00:33:53.459 --> 00:33:54.179 I'm over it. 00:33:54.209 --> 00:33:54.839 I'm done. 00:33:55.619 --> 00:33:58.289 And I came back the next day and I looked Sean in the face. 00:33:58.656 --> 00:33:59.736 it was a turning point. 00:34:00.169 --> 00:34:00.649 Victoria: Wow. 00:34:00.739 --> 00:34:02.419 That's, uh, that's amazing. 00:34:02.689 --> 00:34:07.039 So thank you for sharing that because that, I know is a, is a very personal 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:08.659 story and very vulnerable story. 00:34:09.289 --> 00:34:09.679 Jeff: yeah. 00:34:10.849 --> 00:34:12.679 Victoria: but to, to your credit. 00:34:13.489 --> 00:34:17.359 to Sean's credit, to have somebody that was that committed personally to you 00:34:18.414 --> 00:34:18.654 Jeff: Yeah. 00:34:18.859 --> 00:34:19.459 Victoria: critical. 00:34:19.636 --> 00:34:25.606 and he probably stretched the boundaries of what was, you know, typical acceptable 00:34:26.356 --> 00:34:28.996 boss activity at your company, right? 00:34:28.996 --> 00:34:30.226 At, at Cintas, right. 00:34:30.226 --> 00:34:34.816 So big company, it's not like it's, uh, and to be able to do 00:34:34.816 --> 00:34:39.016 that, to feed that into you, and, and then obviously, here you are. 00:34:39.976 --> 00:34:41.596 Jeff: Yeah, think about that. 00:34:41.911 --> 00:34:42.961 Victoria: so to speak, 00:34:43.726 --> 00:34:43.936 Jeff: Yeah. 00:34:43.936 --> 00:34:45.316 Think about what's happened since then. 00:34:45.631 --> 00:34:46.891 Victoria: at that point in time. 00:34:47.356 --> 00:34:47.716 Jeff: Yeah. 00:34:47.761 --> 00:34:49.651 Victoria: have that level of trust between the two of you to 00:34:49.756 --> 00:34:50.086 Jeff: Hmm. 00:34:50.281 --> 00:34:51.751 Victoria: like that is is huge. 00:34:51.751 --> 00:34:52.621 Enormous. 00:34:53.326 --> 00:34:54.226 Jeff: I mean, think about it. 00:34:54.226 --> 00:34:56.506 If you don't earn the right and you have that conversation. 00:34:56.857 --> 00:34:58.987 I mean, you might get punched for goodness sake. 00:34:58.987 --> 00:35:02.197 That's extreme, but it's like he earned the right to have that 00:35:02.197 --> 00:35:05.587 tough conversation and think about what's happened since then. 00:35:06.217 --> 00:35:11.407 I had, from that moment of that tough conversation, I went on 00:35:11.407 --> 00:35:16.867 to win multiple Presidents clubs awards in sales, 11 more promotions. 00:35:17.351 --> 00:35:19.721 I launched a business, a podcast, a book. 00:35:20.781 --> 00:35:21.071 Victoria: Yeah. 00:35:21.291 --> 00:35:22.376 Jeff: I, I don't know. 00:35:22.586 --> 00:35:27.342 But I wonder often had he not done what he did and was the leader that 00:35:27.342 --> 00:35:32.052 he was and leaned into the tough conversation, would I be who I am today? 00:35:32.442 --> 00:35:35.322 And I honor him in the book and I honor that story in the book 00:35:35.322 --> 00:35:39.402 because I want leaders that read that chapter to say, you know what? 00:35:39.762 --> 00:35:41.322 This is bigger than. 00:35:41.854 --> 00:35:46.024 Climbing the Fortune 500 ranks, there are people that are counting 00:35:46.024 --> 00:35:48.454 on leaders to show up and lead well. 00:35:48.724 --> 00:35:50.014 That's what has to happen. 00:35:50.164 --> 00:35:51.664 And when you do that, guess what? 00:35:51.664 --> 00:35:53.044 It's great for business. 00:35:53.372 --> 00:35:53.612 Victoria: Yeah. 00:35:53.612 --> 00:35:54.962 I, I, I think it's great. 00:35:54.962 --> 00:35:58.952 And I think that the takeaway for me on this, as well, Jeff, 00:35:59.012 --> 00:36:01.866 is have a conversation, right? 00:36:01.866 --> 00:36:03.036 We often have regrets. 00:36:03.036 --> 00:36:07.266 We let people maybe stew in their miseries a little bit of a strong 00:36:07.266 --> 00:36:09.696 phrase, but it's, you're, we're afraid. 00:36:09.726 --> 00:36:12.396 We're afraid sometimes to have those conversations, to say, Hey, 00:36:12.426 --> 00:36:13.986 okay, I know this really sucks. 00:36:14.839 --> 00:36:16.074 I was gonna use that word. 00:36:16.351 --> 00:36:17.521 but I need you to buck up. 00:36:17.581 --> 00:36:17.731 I 00:36:17.971 --> 00:36:18.391 Jeff: Yeah, 00:36:18.421 --> 00:36:21.151 Victoria: team needs you, you, yourself, need you. 00:36:21.151 --> 00:36:25.451 And, and having those tough conversations, is really critical. 00:36:25.451 --> 00:36:27.881 And it's, and it's hard for both people. 00:36:27.881 --> 00:36:32.201 'cause I'm sure for Sean, it was not an easy conversation for him to have. 00:36:32.591 --> 00:36:33.131 Jeff: that's right. 00:36:33.221 --> 00:36:35.711 Victoria: just as it was not an easy conversation for you to hear. 00:36:36.401 --> 00:36:40.751 Jeff: Yeah, it's true and, and I often get asked, especially because of the. 00:36:41.741 --> 00:36:45.281 You know, recognition that the book's getting, you know, I'll have leaders 00:36:45.281 --> 00:36:48.791 been messaging me on LinkedIn and so forth saying, I want to be that leader. 00:36:48.791 --> 00:36:55.061 How will I know how, how will I know when I'm doing it the right way? 00:36:55.456 --> 00:36:55.746 Victoria: Yeah. 00:36:56.231 --> 00:36:58.721 Jeff: I, there's this one little report card that I give. 00:36:59.057 --> 00:37:06.077 do you think it is more impactful to tell somebody, good job, or, I'm proud of you. 00:37:07.097 --> 00:37:08.747 What would you say is more impactful? 00:37:09.827 --> 00:37:11.537 Victoria: I'm assuming I'm a, I'm proud of you, 00:37:11.957 --> 00:37:12.587 Jeff: Yes, 00:37:12.707 --> 00:37:13.097 Victoria: right? 00:37:13.127 --> 00:37:13.307 It's 00:37:13.307 --> 00:37:14.327 Jeff: but here's the thing. 00:37:14.387 --> 00:37:16.697 It's, it's, it's no doubt about it. 00:37:17.177 --> 00:37:18.167 But here's the thing. 00:37:18.617 --> 00:37:21.107 Not everybody earns the right to use that word. 00:37:21.827 --> 00:37:22.697 I'm proud of you. 00:37:23.071 --> 00:37:28.621 If you can look somebody in the face and say, I'm so proud of you, 00:37:29.134 --> 00:37:31.444 then you have hit a different level of leadership. 00:37:32.269 --> 00:37:33.169 Now check this out. 00:37:33.169 --> 00:37:34.669 They're doing something they shouldn't do. 00:37:35.479 --> 00:37:36.469 What hits different? 00:37:36.999 --> 00:37:41.716 What were you thinking or what you did really disappoints me 00:37:42.376 --> 00:37:44.386 Victoria: With a disappointment every time, 00:37:44.866 --> 00:37:45.616 Jeff: every time. 00:37:45.826 --> 00:37:46.921 Victoria: Catholic guilt, by the way, 00:37:47.086 --> 00:37:51.286 Jeff: Yeah, but, but you can't, you can't say that. 00:37:51.286 --> 00:37:58.271 It feels so weird to say proud or disappointed unless you've earned it. 00:37:59.116 --> 00:38:00.166 Unless you've earned it, 00:38:00.576 --> 00:38:00.866 Victoria: Yeah. 00:38:01.216 --> 00:38:04.186 Jeff: you won't say it because you'll, you know, if you haven't earned it 00:38:04.186 --> 00:38:07.426 and you say it, the other person is gonna give you body language 00:38:07.426 --> 00:38:09.256 that says, I don't really care. 00:38:09.746 --> 00:38:10.766 I don't really care. 00:38:10.856 --> 00:38:12.926 Who are you to tell me you're proud of me? 00:38:13.646 --> 00:38:17.276 That's, that's designated for my grandmother, not you. 00:38:18.656 --> 00:38:24.896 When we can earn the right to say these two words, we are on the right track. 00:38:25.481 --> 00:38:25.871 Victoria: Yeah. 00:38:26.591 --> 00:38:31.151 and I would also say we should be willing to use those two words, 00:38:31.601 --> 00:38:32.171 Jeff: Yes. 00:38:32.321 --> 00:38:36.821 Victoria: uh, I, I think sometimes we hold ourselves back from giving that kind of 00:38:36.821 --> 00:38:39.051 feedback, positive and negative, right? 00:38:39.351 --> 00:38:41.961 Um, and yet it's powerful. 00:38:42.471 --> 00:38:42.921 Jeff: Yes. 00:38:43.101 --> 00:38:44.211 Victoria: the right people, it can't 00:38:44.331 --> 00:38:44.631 Jeff: Yes. 00:38:44.631 --> 00:38:44.961 Right. 00:38:45.051 --> 00:38:45.411 Victoria: right? 00:38:45.411 --> 00:38:48.951 So it's not that, uh, to your point, you have to have the right 00:38:48.951 --> 00:38:51.861 relationship in order to do that, but we should be using those words. 00:38:52.131 --> 00:38:52.791 Jeff: Absolutely. 00:38:52.791 --> 00:38:53.031 Yes. 00:38:53.271 --> 00:38:53.541 Victoria: Yeah. 00:38:53.721 --> 00:38:54.471 Jeff: They're impactful. 00:38:54.681 --> 00:38:56.811 Victoria: So, Jeff, this has been really great and, and 00:38:56.811 --> 00:38:59.061 you've given us so many nuggets. 00:38:59.161 --> 00:39:04.061 But I always like to, to ask my guests, as we close, you know, you've, you've 00:39:04.061 --> 00:39:07.031 obviously had a really successful corporate and entrepreneurial 00:39:07.031 --> 00:39:08.801 career and quite a journey. 00:39:09.247 --> 00:39:14.647 What advice would you give to someone in your career, in their career, 00:39:14.647 --> 00:39:20.167 maybe a young Jeff Cher, that wants to achieve your level of success? 00:39:20.906 --> 00:39:24.896 Jeff: I talk about my mentors throughout the book from feedback in a fragile 00:39:24.896 --> 00:39:31.889 world, and I would tell you mentoring has literally changed my life, and I 00:39:31.889 --> 00:39:33.389 don't mean just in the business sense. 00:39:34.124 --> 00:39:38.504 You know, I've been around some amazing husbands that taught me how 00:39:38.504 --> 00:39:40.874 to be a good husband, not perfect. 00:39:41.414 --> 00:39:47.294 I've been around some amazing fathers that have taught me how to be a better father. 00:39:47.694 --> 00:39:51.204 Certainly I've been around some amazing mentors that are sales 00:39:51.204 --> 00:39:53.304 experts that taught me how to do that. 00:39:54.144 --> 00:39:56.934 I would tell you early in your career, and it should never stop, 00:39:56.934 --> 00:39:58.644 quite frankly, is seek mentoring. 00:39:59.494 --> 00:40:02.164 We do polls and, and so forth at our company. 00:40:02.164 --> 00:40:09.034 It, it's sad to me how many people have never had a mentor, and a 00:40:09.034 --> 00:40:12.214 lot of the things that I hear is, well, Jeff, I wouldn't even know 00:40:12.454 --> 00:40:14.374 how to, how do I even get a mentor? 00:40:15.084 --> 00:40:18.444 There's a lot of strategy that goes into that, but I'm gonna give you, 00:40:18.444 --> 00:40:21.534 if you are listening, and this is you, I'm gonna give you one question 00:40:22.074 --> 00:40:25.764 that can expand your network and at least give you greater odds of finding 00:40:25.764 --> 00:40:27.144 mentors that can change your life. 00:40:28.449 --> 00:40:33.609 When you're done talking to your boss, when you're done talking to somebody 00:40:34.029 --> 00:40:39.129 at church, when you're done talking to somebody at the family reunion, let them 00:40:39.129 --> 00:40:40.779 know what you're trying to accomplish. 00:40:40.779 --> 00:40:42.039 I'd love to be a better dad. 00:40:42.129 --> 00:40:43.359 I'd love to be a better husband. 00:40:43.359 --> 00:40:45.309 I'd love to be a better salesperson someday. 00:40:45.309 --> 00:40:46.269 I'd like to be a leader. 00:40:46.464 --> 00:40:46.884 Leader. 00:40:46.889 --> 00:40:51.519 Before you close that conversation, you asked this question, who do you know 00:40:51.742 --> 00:40:56.332 based on our conversation that I don't know that you think I should meet? 00:40:56.939 --> 00:40:58.259 This will start opening up. 00:40:58.259 --> 00:40:58.739 You know what? 00:40:58.739 --> 00:41:01.409 Based off what you said, Jeff, you should meet my buddy Joe. 00:41:02.339 --> 00:41:05.639 Now you go and you meet with Joe because now you got an introduction 00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:08.009 to Joe and you go to that meeting. 00:41:08.009 --> 00:41:09.029 Very intentional. 00:41:09.749 --> 00:41:11.009 You have questions ready. 00:41:11.129 --> 00:41:13.559 When Joe gives you advice, you execute. 00:41:13.919 --> 00:41:16.079 You report back to Joe what you did. 00:41:16.409 --> 00:41:17.549 This starts to build. 00:41:17.549 --> 00:41:22.229 The greatest gift that you can give a mentor is execution and results. 00:41:22.319 --> 00:41:24.359 You do that they will come running for you. 00:41:24.776 --> 00:41:26.606 obviously you have to consume. 00:41:27.096 --> 00:41:31.686 so mentoring number one, consume number two, and I don't mean, um, 00:41:31.716 --> 00:41:33.636 well, Jeff, I do consume my company. 00:41:33.636 --> 00:41:35.886 They, we have training every Wednesday morning. 00:41:36.186 --> 00:41:38.886 Listen, if you do what everybody else does, you're gonna get 00:41:38.886 --> 00:41:40.176 what everybody else has. 00:41:40.506 --> 00:41:43.056 You know, there's a, there's a, a scripture that I love. 00:41:43.056 --> 00:41:44.974 It says, uh, where your treasure is. 00:41:45.056 --> 00:41:47.576 your heart is, I believe this is true. 00:41:48.206 --> 00:41:49.286 I could tell you. 00:41:49.811 --> 00:41:52.361 How serious you are about success. 00:41:52.631 --> 00:41:56.801 If you gave me your last 12 months bank statements, how much is 00:41:56.801 --> 00:41:59.771 on your bank statement for your personal growth and development? 00:42:00.281 --> 00:42:03.191 When's the last time you jumped on a plane to go hear a speaker? 00:42:03.191 --> 00:42:04.781 That could literally change your life. 00:42:05.171 --> 00:42:09.221 When's the last time that you paid to go to a chamber event paid a hundred 00:42:09.221 --> 00:42:10.661 dollars out of your own pocket? 00:42:10.841 --> 00:42:14.501 Or are you waiting for your company to help you be successful? 00:42:14.681 --> 00:42:17.471 I hope that they do, but it's never gonna be enough. 00:42:17.786 --> 00:42:19.886 You have to go chase success. 00:42:20.126 --> 00:42:22.436 That would be my advice to somebody that's starting out. 00:42:23.261 --> 00:42:24.371 Victoria: Love it, love it, love it. 00:42:24.371 --> 00:42:25.901 Such a rich conversation. 00:42:26.321 --> 00:42:27.431 Jeff, thank you so much. 00:42:27.431 --> 00:42:27.731 Thanks for 00:42:27.896 --> 00:42:28.616 Jeff: Thank you. 00:42:28.991 --> 00:42:31.001 Victoria: really, really appreciated this conversation. 00:42:31.496 --> 00:42:32.246 Jeff: Grateful for you. 00:42:32.246 --> 00:42:33.506 Grateful for your listeners. 00:42:33.791 --> 00:42:34.211 Victoria: Thank you. 00:42:34.571 --> 00:42:37.151 And thank you everyone for joining us today on The Chemical Show. 00:42:37.151 --> 00:42:39.851 Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will 00:42:39.851 --> 00:42:41.591 talk with you again soon.