1 00:00:02,881 --> 00:00:04,681 Welcome to the Cyber Traps podcast. 2 00:00:04,681 --> 00:00:15,211 We are once again here filming live at or recording, live at the cyber or the Inch 360 cybersecurity conference here in beautiful Spokane Washington. 3 00:00:15,601 --> 00:00:17,881 Beautiful day on Gonzaga University's campus. 4 00:00:17,881 --> 00:00:19,621 And today we have Pete with us. 5 00:00:19,621 --> 00:00:21,956 Pete why don't you introduce yourself and tell us about what you do. 6 00:00:22,201 --> 00:00:22,741 Yeah, sure. 7 00:00:22,741 --> 00:00:23,671 My name's Pete Tucker. 8 00:00:23,671 --> 00:00:25,661 I I'm a developer for Drip seven. 9 00:00:25,661 --> 00:00:28,931 I've been writing, working for them for I think, five years now. 10 00:00:28,961 --> 00:00:29,201 Right. 11 00:00:29,291 --> 00:00:31,091 helping them put together their system. 12 00:00:31,461 --> 00:00:35,931 And then I'm also, I teach computer science at Whitworth University just up north from Gonzaga. 13 00:00:36,036 --> 00:00:36,336 Yeah. 14 00:00:36,336 --> 00:00:36,876 Excellent. 15 00:00:36,876 --> 00:00:40,306 So, tell us a little bit about what you've been doing with Drip seven. 16 00:00:40,306 --> 00:00:42,046 'cause the idea of it is pretty cool. 17 00:00:42,421 --> 00:00:42,961 Yeah. 18 00:00:42,961 --> 00:00:47,851 My role has been obviously writing the code and so, we've been out trying to get clients. 19 00:00:47,851 --> 00:00:49,171 I've met with a few clients. 20 00:00:49,261 --> 00:00:53,081 I've helped them set up so we could do SSO through saml. 21 00:00:53,081 --> 00:00:56,471 We've set up SCIM so we could do user provisioning. 22 00:00:56,471 --> 00:01:04,541 That's been a lot of my role is that kind of coordinating with users and then obviously fixing bugs as they come and adding new features as they come up. 23 00:01:04,541 --> 00:01:06,981 So, pretty much a little bit of everything. 24 00:01:07,101 --> 00:01:08,061 In the Cub base. 25 00:01:08,106 --> 00:01:14,046 That's what happens when you're working with a startup that is, is figuring things out and figuring out the right customers. 26 00:01:14,046 --> 00:01:21,696 So, talk to me about how you see AI with your day-to-day work and with your students at Whitworth. 27 00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:25,576 Especially since AI is supposed to be an amazing coder. 28 00:01:26,076 --> 00:01:30,036 Yeah, this is a conversation we have often students for sure. 29 00:01:30,136 --> 00:01:32,296 Whether they should use it, how they should use it. 30 00:01:32,696 --> 00:01:40,046 Right now I'm teaching our first semester intro to computer science course, so foundational basic c plus. 31 00:01:40,046 --> 00:01:40,616 Hello World. 32 00:01:40,616 --> 00:01:45,321 We just finished last week and I'm also teaching a prep course for our senior capstone. 33 00:01:45,321 --> 00:01:50,661 So I've got the range first year all the way through fourth year, and I got a junior level class in the middle of all that. 34 00:01:51,396 --> 00:01:59,306 And so for when it comes to AI with my students a lot of the conversations we're having really are based on the course that I'm teaching, 35 00:01:59,531 --> 00:01:59,681 right? 36 00:02:00,176 --> 00:02:04,436 So for the intro course, I really gotta back 'em all and say, no, don't use it at all. 37 00:02:04,436 --> 00:02:06,266 You have to learn the foundational skills. 38 00:02:06,386 --> 00:02:07,736 have to stay away from it. 39 00:02:07,736 --> 00:02:09,056 And we really work hard at that. 40 00:02:09,546 --> 00:02:11,886 If we get to more the senior level, then. 41 00:02:12,521 --> 00:02:16,891 They're working on real projects and so they have the foundational skills. 42 00:02:16,891 --> 00:02:19,351 Now it's a matter of putting together the larger architecture. 43 00:02:19,351 --> 00:02:22,561 And so AI can come alongside that a little bit better. 44 00:02:22,951 --> 00:02:32,251 One thing I did a couple of times last year, I dunno if this is interesting y'all or not, but, I taught our database class a couple of times last and they do a final project. 45 00:02:32,341 --> 00:02:37,381 They do, they, they model the data, then they write the code to interact with the data and build an interface for that. 46 00:02:37,971 --> 00:02:50,351 At the end of that, for after, after they presented their work at the final exam day, I said, for 10 bonus points or whatever have AI come up with a data model for you and then AI's data model to the one you came up with. 47 00:02:50,851 --> 00:02:54,151 And the really cool thing about that was students were able to see because they were. 48 00:02:54,526 --> 00:02:56,716 Sort of experts in what they did. 49 00:02:57,236 --> 00:03:05,086 They were able to see that AI did some things that they hadn't thought of, but there was a lot of things the AI did that wasn't good at all, that wasn't gonna solve the problem. 50 00:03:05,086 --> 00:03:06,876 And that was the thing I wanted them to see, right? 51 00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:12,791 Is that, yeah, ai, if you're naive, if you're just coming into it blind, AI is pretty cool 'cause it does some things you never would've thought of. 52 00:03:12,791 --> 00:03:12,991 Yeah. 53 00:03:13,916 --> 00:03:16,736 if you spend the time on it on your own and you really dig into it. 54 00:03:17,181 --> 00:03:26,231 On your own and do the deep work then you realize, oh, this isn't that great, oh, there were some things that I would, I'm glad I thought of that the AI didn't. 55 00:03:26,928 --> 00:03:32,268 / So a couple cool things for me is that I'm certainly not a coder myself. 56 00:03:32,338 --> 00:03:35,728 But I do have a Jekyll website and so I have. 57 00:03:36,223 --> 00:03:37,723 Like, I've created that myself. 58 00:03:37,723 --> 00:03:41,953 And 10 years ago I tried to do this and I couldn't figure it out, and I gave up. 59 00:03:42,253 --> 00:03:47,563 And then when AI became accessible to everybody, then I used that to help me figure it out. 60 00:03:47,563 --> 00:03:51,803 And I got up and running and it's now live and it's working and it's working well for me. 61 00:03:51,923 --> 00:03:57,533 And what's interesting is that I, as I've used it to troubleshoot and find like fix bugs and things like that. 62 00:03:57,928 --> 00:04:04,048 Sometimes I can tell when it gets caught in a loop and it just goes through and like, says, okay, try this, and this, and it. 63 00:04:04,318 --> 00:04:07,078 None of those things work because it's wrong from the beginning. 64 00:04:07,378 --> 00:04:10,048 And my problem is I don't know what's actually wrong. 65 00:04:10,428 --> 00:04:22,108 And that's where having that foundation is so important and it's really dangerous to use it for something that you don't know well enough to be able to say, this is where it's wrong. 66 00:04:22,408 --> 00:04:24,328 Whereas in other areas, like with writing. 67 00:04:24,768 --> 00:04:31,128 I can use it for writing and I can, I know that everything I write is better than what it does because I understand. 68 00:04:31,188 --> 00:04:32,178 I wouldn't write like that. 69 00:04:32,253 --> 00:04:33,933 No, that's a really good analogy, isn't it? 70 00:04:33,983 --> 00:04:39,843 You're already experienced at writing, you can see the problems and you can fix what you need to fix. 71 00:04:39,843 --> 00:04:47,273 And if you're just getting this big, massive machine and it looks like a bunch of gibberish, it's awful hard to figure out where it's wrong. 72 00:04:47,513 --> 00:04:47,993 a good point. 73 00:04:48,158 --> 00:04:48,338 Yeah. 74 00:04:48,338 --> 00:04:49,238 It's really fascinating. 75 00:04:49,238 --> 00:04:51,263 So I like your approach of. 76 00:04:52,018 --> 00:04:59,338 Of not, is issuing it completely, but also like making sure the beginners have that basic understanding of the foundation. 77 00:04:59,338 --> 00:04:59,398 Yeah. 78 00:04:59,828 --> 00:05:02,258 And then how do you use it in your day-to-day work? 79 00:05:02,318 --> 00:05:03,458 Is, do you 80 00:05:03,558 --> 00:05:04,248 yeah, of course. 81 00:05:04,248 --> 00:05:04,458 Right. 82 00:05:04,458 --> 00:05:06,318 It's there, it's a like else. 83 00:05:06,318 --> 00:05:08,298 It's like I, yeah, I use a compiler, of course I 84 00:05:09,028 --> 00:05:11,038 Yeah, I use it, with Gyp seven for sure. 85 00:05:11,038 --> 00:05:15,148 When I was trying to manage and figure out SCIM and SSO, for example, right? 86 00:05:15,148 --> 00:05:17,588 I was as a lot of documentation that I gotta dig 87 00:05:17,588 --> 00:05:30,398 through just to work and some of the stuff I knew and some of the stuff I didn't know and, aI was really good at coming alongside of me and saying, okay, here's the structure you're about to get when they make, when you make your call, here's the structure that's gonna come back after that call. 88 00:05:30,398 --> 00:05:32,918 And it helped me figure out how to get there For sure. 89 00:05:32,963 --> 00:05:33,263 Yeah. 90 00:05:33,653 --> 00:05:39,563 And that's one of the things that, that I find so amazing, especially tackling something new with new documentation. 91 00:05:39,968 --> 00:05:45,338 Being able to load that in and say, alright, I need to do this very specific thing. 92 00:05:45,548 --> 00:05:50,108 And and then it can go find it for you basically and say, here's how you would implement that. 93 00:05:50,498 --> 00:05:53,058 That kind of stuff is really remarkable. 94 00:05:53,118 --> 00:06:06,328 And so time saving and energy saving, because while you may learn some other things through that process of figuring that out on your own, you don't always need to learn those things to accomplish the things you're trying to do. 95 00:06:06,553 --> 00:06:06,763 yeah. 96 00:06:06,763 --> 00:06:07,723 No, that's exactly right. 97 00:06:07,723 --> 00:06:14,623 If you just need that one little piece out huge document, AI is great, but if you need the context around it, it can find it. 98 00:06:14,623 --> 00:06:17,413 But you're gonna miss some things don't go do the harder work. 99 00:06:17,413 --> 00:06:17,953 So you're right. 100 00:06:17,953 --> 00:06:19,183 You've gotta learn how to balance that. 101 00:06:19,308 --> 00:06:19,668 Yeah. 102 00:06:19,798 --> 00:06:29,608 How do you make that decision yourself on whether to do the short and easy, fast route, or do the thing that takes longer, but helps you have a better understanding? 103 00:06:29,873 --> 00:06:32,993 I think in the ideal, and I don't always do this, I don't wanna sound like 104 00:06:33,148 --> 00:06:33,658 Yeah. 105 00:06:34,013 --> 00:06:39,628 kind of, that kind of good, but in the ideal, I'll find the thing I need quickly and start to work with it. 106 00:06:39,628 --> 00:06:45,418 But then as I'm working with it, then I've gotta start branching out and learn working, reading around that and learning the context around it. 107 00:06:45,418 --> 00:06:48,248 So a process rather than a decision. 108 00:06:48,248 --> 00:06:50,198 Do I go deep or I just take the shortcut? 109 00:06:50,408 --> 00:06:50,708 Yeah. 110 00:06:50,708 --> 00:06:58,108 So it's like, you can't say specifically like, this is what I do every time, because sometimes I need to just get that one piece Other times. 111 00:06:58,798 --> 00:07:01,468 I may realize that I need a little bit more and that's okay too. 112 00:07:01,508 --> 00:07:01,798 Yeah. 113 00:07:01,803 --> 00:07:04,783 And you know, getting back to my students at Whitworth too, right? 114 00:07:04,783 --> 00:07:07,613 As I these are the decisions I need them to learn how to make. 115 00:07:07,793 --> 00:07:09,443 can't tell them what the right decision is. 116 00:07:09,803 --> 00:07:14,658 to experience it and say, yeah, I should have done it the harder way or wow, I should have just done it the easy way and moved on. 117 00:07:14,658 --> 00:07:16,158 But though you have to learn how to do that. 118 00:07:16,158 --> 00:07:18,408 That's something I can't just, here's the right answer. 119 00:07:18,678 --> 00:07:19,068 Yeah. 120 00:07:19,458 --> 00:07:20,538 That's so fascinating. 121 00:07:21,318 --> 00:07:21,588 Okay. 122 00:07:21,588 --> 00:07:22,848 Well, Pete, this has been awesome. 123 00:07:22,848 --> 00:07:26,848 Thank you so much for taking the time and appreciate you coming to inch 360 this year. 124 00:07:26,848 --> 00:07:26,858 Yeah, 125 00:07:26,863 --> 00:07:27,163 fun. 126 00:07:27,163 --> 00:07:28,183 I appreciate having me. 127 00:07:28,183 --> 00:07:28,663 This was fun. 128 00:07:28,708 --> 00:07:28,888 Yeah. 129 00:07:28,888 --> 00:07:29,188 Good.