WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en-GB 00:00:08.350 --> 00:00:12.540 Travis Bader: I'm Travis Bader, and this is the Silvercore podcast. 00:00:13.380 --> 00:00:17.930 Silvercore has been providing its members with the skills and knowledge 00:00:17.950 --> 00:00:22.620 necessary to be confident and proficient in the outdoors for over 20 years. 00:00:22.710 --> 00:00:26.790 And we make it easier for people to deepen their connection to the natural world. 00:00:27.730 --> 00:00:30.500 If you enjoy the positive and educational content. 00:00:30.710 --> 00:00:35.530 We provide, please let others know by sharing, commenting, and 00:00:35.530 --> 00:00:39.630 following so that you can join in on everything that Silvercore stands for. 00:00:40.710 --> 00:00:43.340 If you'd like to learn more about becoming a member of the 00:00:43.340 --> 00:00:46.919 Silvercore club and community, visit our website at silvercore. 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:46.940 ca. 00:00:52.330 --> 00:00:53.380 So how should we start this one? 00:00:53.800 --> 00:00:54.339 Paul Ballard: I don't know. 00:00:54.720 --> 00:00:55.320 Travis Bader: I'm scared. 00:00:56.210 --> 00:00:57.340 Maybe we just start just like that. 00:00:57.905 --> 00:01:02.695 Paul Ballard: Yes, I, I'm scared because it's dark and, and now you're 00:01:02.705 --> 00:01:05.015 forcing me to do podcasts in the dark. 00:01:05.144 --> 00:01:09.945 Typically we've worked in the studio, but I think, uh, you know, Travis, 00:01:09.945 --> 00:01:14.254 I'm, I'm happy to be here in what truly is the great outdoors of the 00:01:14.364 --> 00:01:18.054 southern part of the province of British Columbia on a turkey hunt. 00:01:18.104 --> 00:01:19.364 And we're about to talk. 00:01:21.259 --> 00:01:21.589 Travis Bader: Camouflage. 00:01:21.589 --> 00:01:24.509 The Camo Jam, the, what was the title for this one? 00:01:24.520 --> 00:01:24.640 The 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:25.910 Paul Ballard: Camouflage Conundrum. 00:01:25.949 --> 00:01:27.179 The Camouflage Conundrum. 00:01:27.250 --> 00:01:28.699 The Camouflage Commitment. 00:01:29.199 --> 00:01:29.800 So. 00:01:29.880 --> 00:01:31.460 All about camo, but 00:01:31.460 --> 00:01:32.100 Travis Bader: maybe not. 00:01:32.179 --> 00:01:34.830 We've been getting people asking, saying we'd like to have 00:01:34.830 --> 00:01:36.629 some more on scene podcasts. 00:01:36.659 --> 00:01:37.829 Now I've done a couple in the past. 00:01:37.849 --> 00:01:42.199 Uh, first one was on a jet boat just outside of a, a, uh, a 00:01:42.199 --> 00:01:44.400 ghost town on the Skeena River. 00:01:44.419 --> 00:01:45.390 That was a pretty cool one. 00:01:45.870 --> 00:01:49.905 Uh, You and I did one at the, uh, Fuddleduck Lodge there. 00:01:50.015 --> 00:01:51.024 Yes. 00:01:51.600 --> 00:01:53.200 And now we're out on a turkey hunt. 00:01:53.250 --> 00:01:54.350 This is my first turkey hunt. 00:01:54.350 --> 00:01:55.390 And so I'm learning a lot about 00:01:55.390 --> 00:01:55.720 Paul Ballard: this. 00:01:56.050 --> 00:02:00.289 Well, I'm not exactly the best teacher because I've hunted turkey before, but 00:02:00.289 --> 00:02:05.759 I'm by no means, you know, the penultimate turkey hunter, but we're doing our thing. 00:02:06.089 --> 00:02:08.870 Travis Bader: So we were talking a little bit about camouflage and this 00:02:08.870 --> 00:02:12.680 is something that's come up in the past and you know, Guy Kramer, we 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:14.130 had him on the podcast before he. 00:02:14.685 --> 00:02:19.035 Developed camouflage for armies all over the world, hundreds of different 00:02:19.045 --> 00:02:23.075 armies, different types of camouflage and the inventor of the invisible cloak. 00:02:23.445 --> 00:02:26.734 And one of the things that I was hoping to talk about there was sort 00:02:26.734 --> 00:02:28.895 of the specifics of camouflage. 00:02:28.924 --> 00:02:31.825 Cause he'd come at it with a very scientific perspective 00:02:32.355 --> 00:02:35.075 and the conversation went in a different direction. 00:02:35.105 --> 00:02:36.815 It was awesome conversation. 00:02:37.555 --> 00:02:41.695 But I thought maybe we can delve a little bit into the specifics of camouflage. 00:02:41.725 --> 00:02:44.545 Do we need this super expensive stuff that comes 00:02:44.745 --> 00:02:45.485 Paul Ballard: out every single year? 00:02:45.495 --> 00:02:50.815 That's really it in the end, because we like to reach out to, you know, the, 00:02:50.835 --> 00:02:54.955 the viewers of the Silvercore podcast, you know, and they've got questions 00:02:54.955 --> 00:02:59.025 like, man, this stuff's expensive and do I need to spend the money on it? 00:02:59.445 --> 00:03:00.985 And so on and so forth. 00:03:00.995 --> 00:03:03.275 But let's start from the beginning. 00:03:03.739 --> 00:03:05.220 What is camouflage all about? 00:03:05.540 --> 00:03:13.140 It's meant to alter the appearance of, of someone, something to make it blend into 00:03:13.209 --> 00:03:18.630 an environment so that it's not obvious to, probably in our case, an animal, 00:03:18.630 --> 00:03:23.610 a bird, uh, that we might be pursuing, uh, in the military, it might hmm. 00:03:30.885 --> 00:03:34.995 We typically look at the most important things, is shape, 00:03:36.105 --> 00:03:39.665 shine, shadow, and silhouette. 00:03:40.595 --> 00:03:43.935 And another part of camouflage, of course, is going to be movement 00:03:44.025 --> 00:03:47.735 and, and, and that, but let's start, you know, with shape. 00:03:47.845 --> 00:03:50.085 Travis Bader: See, I always learned it as the four S's and 00:03:50.085 --> 00:03:51.825 an M or the five S's and an M. 00:03:51.825 --> 00:03:54.544 And some people in different areas will have a little bit different. 00:03:54.544 --> 00:03:55.124 And it is, 00:03:55.125 --> 00:03:58.864 Paul Ballard: and forgive me if, if I, in any way, You know, change 00:03:58.864 --> 00:04:01.954 up what somebody has learned from military doctrine or something of 00:04:01.984 --> 00:04:03.855 that, but let's talk about shape. 00:04:05.385 --> 00:04:08.364 What's going to draw attention to you in the wild? 00:04:08.364 --> 00:04:11.975 Well, we first of all, got to look at, as far as shape goes, nothing 00:04:11.975 --> 00:04:17.274 is 90 degrees, nothing is absolutely flat, absolutely square, absolutely 00:04:17.274 --> 00:04:19.115 horizontal, or absolutely vertical. 00:04:19.765 --> 00:04:24.675 And, and all's we need to do is interrupt any one of those vertical planes, 00:04:24.675 --> 00:04:31.335 horizontal planes, uh, or the combination of the two would become unusual. 00:04:32.035 --> 00:04:37.755 Now, plaids may, um, you know, be one of those things where we're saying that 00:04:37.755 --> 00:04:40.365 we've got a, a 90 degree set of planes. 00:04:40.365 --> 00:04:45.885 We've got, you know, vertical, horizontal on a plaid, but wrap it around a human 00:04:45.885 --> 00:04:48.144 body and it changes significantly. 00:04:48.385 --> 00:04:48.755 Plaid, 00:04:48.765 --> 00:04:51.585 Travis Bader: the original disbursement pattern material. 00:04:51.645 --> 00:04:52.175 Paul Ballard: Right. 00:04:52.235 --> 00:04:58.284 You know, and the, the Hellanders, they'll tell you that, but I, as you know, I'm, 00:04:58.315 --> 00:05:04.625 I'm purposely wearing this plaid shirt in a camouflage vest to say, Hey, what the 00:05:04.625 --> 00:05:06.165 heck's the difference between the two? 00:05:06.510 --> 00:05:06.740 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:05:06.740 --> 00:05:09.740 And if you didn't point that out, I don't know if the viewers, hopefully it 00:05:09.740 --> 00:05:11.520 shows up on I don't know how, how well, 00:05:11.530 --> 00:05:15.279 Paul Ballard: but that's my, my, my goal here is to talk about that. 00:05:15.300 --> 00:05:15.530 Travis Bader: So. 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:18.919 I don't think people would actually look at that and see it as out of place. 00:05:18.960 --> 00:05:19.290 Yeah. 00:05:19.629 --> 00:05:22.620 Paul Ballard: And, and the two things combined are helping to break 00:05:22.620 --> 00:05:27.920 up my shape, my vertical planes, my horizontal planes and so on. 00:05:28.910 --> 00:05:30.040 So then we said. 00:05:31.844 --> 00:05:34.005 Travis Bader: Well, in shape as well, you know, that's one of the things 00:05:34.005 --> 00:05:37.635 when I'm out looking for an animal, that'll catch my eye in a heartbeat. 00:05:37.635 --> 00:05:42.234 And quite often I'll see a tree or a log that's horizontal and my eye, your 00:05:42.234 --> 00:05:43.825 mind just picks up on that right away. 00:05:43.825 --> 00:05:45.275 Cause that's odd. 00:05:46.365 --> 00:05:48.594 Is that you're seeing or is it a tree or what? 00:05:49.230 --> 00:05:53.480 So we have a lot of vertical lines, those horizontal lines stick out 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:54.020 Paul Ballard: right away to me. 00:05:54.020 --> 00:05:54.270 Yeah. 00:05:55.100 --> 00:05:59.040 It's pretty clear that, you know, a deer's back is, is, is one of those things. 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:05.519 And then, you know, here we are, you know, uh, ostensibly turkey hunting today, but, 00:06:05.609 --> 00:06:09.460 you know, when you talk about shape, a turkey that has its feathers all together 00:06:09.830 --> 00:06:11.920 and is standing, has this sort of. 00:06:12.229 --> 00:06:17.400 Almost bottle shape, you know, uh, it's, it's bulbous at the bottom 00:06:17.510 --> 00:06:22.060 tapering up to its neck that looks totally out of place in nature as well. 00:06:22.060 --> 00:06:25.529 When, when that animal's moving around, well, it's just not out of place, but 00:06:25.530 --> 00:06:27.120 it's something that will draw your eyes. 00:06:29.400 --> 00:06:31.990 Shadow, you gotta always be aware of shadow. 00:06:31.990 --> 00:06:37.250 Shadow is probably not the biggest thing, but on a bright sunny day, which we abhor 00:06:37.250 --> 00:06:42.160 as hunters, we prefer that, that grayed out day where we're not looking at, you 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.440 know, brilliance on, you know, into our eyes, onto the horizon or, or whatever. 00:06:46.440 --> 00:06:49.570 But again, casting a shadow, um. 00:06:49.875 --> 00:06:56.425 Can also draw attention to yourself, silhouette standing on the top of a hill. 00:06:56.565 --> 00:06:58.875 Travis Bader: You can have all the best camouflage in the world on, 00:06:59.275 --> 00:07:00.204 Paul Ballard: and you're silhouetted. 00:07:00.204 --> 00:07:02.285 If you're silhouetting to the sky, so good. 00:07:02.594 --> 00:07:06.685 You get up into a tree stand and you pick a tree that is, you know. 00:07:07.060 --> 00:07:10.080 Tall and skinny and nothing behind you. 00:07:10.580 --> 00:07:14.910 Now, all of a sudden your, your, your body shape, your silhouette is 00:07:14.910 --> 00:07:18.910 going to, you know, make an unusual appearance on the trunk of the tree. 00:07:19.309 --> 00:07:23.210 So of course, if you're going to use a climbing tree stand or another, uh, 00:07:23.219 --> 00:07:26.080 ladder type tree stand, what's behind you? 00:07:26.090 --> 00:07:30.960 Are you putting yourself up appropriately high so that, you know, the foliage of 00:07:30.960 --> 00:07:32.980 the tree behind is going to break that. 00:07:33.210 --> 00:07:33.860 That silhouette 00:07:33.880 --> 00:07:37.330 Travis Bader: up before you move on from the, the shadow one, cause you 00:07:37.330 --> 00:07:41.320 know, casting a shadow is obviously something that we have to be conscious of. 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:45.510 But the other part of that, that I've used very effectively in the past is shadows. 00:07:45.809 --> 00:07:49.109 So if you're going to be well camouflaged up beside a tree. 00:07:49.469 --> 00:07:52.840 Or well camouflaged up just in front of the tree where the shadow is and 00:07:52.850 --> 00:07:56.610 anything like, if you think of a camera and the aperture looking out, 00:07:56.930 --> 00:08:00.929 it'll adjust your eye will adjust to the bright part in behind you. 00:08:00.929 --> 00:08:04.349 And that shadow, you become almost basically invisible. 00:08:04.429 --> 00:08:04.649 Paul Ballard: Yeah. 00:08:04.669 --> 00:08:06.339 The shadow man or. 00:08:06.490 --> 00:08:07.520 This man was, yeah. 00:08:07.520 --> 00:08:10.010 Where is this man in the, and, and very true. 00:08:10.320 --> 00:08:13.880 Like, you know, you think that, Oh, I'm going to back clean up to this, this tree. 00:08:14.130 --> 00:08:15.820 Whereas two steps forward of it. 00:08:16.070 --> 00:08:19.950 And, and that is really counterintuitive to what you would think of is 00:08:19.950 --> 00:08:24.090 to be in front of something as opposed to being, being behind it. 00:08:24.710 --> 00:08:28.440 Uh, so shadow, silhouette, um, shine. 00:08:28.810 --> 00:08:29.180 Right. 00:08:29.230 --> 00:08:30.130 Travis Bader: Shine, sheen. 00:08:30.170 --> 00:08:30.710 Paul Ballard: Yes. 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:32.439 The watch, the ring. 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:35.549 The sunglasses, you know, miles away. 00:08:35.549 --> 00:08:39.339 You can be seeing the white patch on, on, on your hat. 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:42.459 But the biggest one is your face. 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:46.389 And, and a lot of people really, you know, take it for granted. 00:08:46.389 --> 00:08:50.759 They're pull their ball cap down, but having a face veil, very, very 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:54.509 important to, you know, if you're going to consider hiding yourself. 00:08:55.185 --> 00:09:00.445 Uh, from anybody to see you is one of these mesh type face veils, which will 00:09:00.445 --> 00:09:03.385 just take that, that shine away a day. 00:09:03.385 --> 00:09:06.705 Like we were going through today, which went through sunshine 00:09:06.715 --> 00:09:07.914 and rain and everything else. 00:09:08.114 --> 00:09:08.775 Pouring rain. 00:09:09.195 --> 00:09:09.745 Pouring rain. 00:09:09.795 --> 00:09:10.055 Oh my God. 00:09:10.475 --> 00:09:11.195 Soak to the bone. 00:09:11.255 --> 00:09:12.915 Hail actually as well. 00:09:13.255 --> 00:09:16.994 But you get your face on a hillside. 00:09:17.255 --> 00:09:22.685 Looking into the sun and all you got to do is get your partner to go, you know, 00:09:22.735 --> 00:09:26.755 on the other side and look back and they will attest to how much that shows. 00:09:27.045 --> 00:09:31.845 And the color that shows is kind of almost a pinky orangey red 00:09:32.254 --> 00:09:34.144 is, is what the, the normal face. 00:09:34.364 --> 00:09:35.604 And it really doesn't matter. 00:09:35.604 --> 00:09:37.905 It, you know, we're going to be inclusive here. 00:09:38.175 --> 00:09:40.095 It's not just a Caucasian face. 00:09:40.105 --> 00:09:42.025 It's, it's anybody. 00:09:42.515 --> 00:09:44.344 You know, the shine, the oils in your face. 00:09:44.354 --> 00:09:48.834 So, you know, using a little bit of a face veil, or maybe the application 00:09:48.834 --> 00:09:53.805 of a bit of a camouflage makeup is going to help to break that shine down. 00:09:53.925 --> 00:09:54.255 Sure. 00:09:54.255 --> 00:09:57.205 You know, and a lot of people take for granted too, you know, what the 00:09:57.205 --> 00:10:02.125 heck, you know, are you wearing that big, uh, Rolex Seamaster or something 00:10:02.125 --> 00:10:04.495 like that, that's going to shine back. 00:10:06.870 --> 00:10:11.530 I got a, I got a Brittany dog that is crazy for shadows and shapes and shine, 00:10:11.800 --> 00:10:15.839 and he will follow the reflection off of my phone, my watch or anything else. 00:10:16.270 --> 00:10:19.140 Well, if he's doing that, then certainly any of the other animals 00:10:19.140 --> 00:10:23.309 that we're trying to disguise ourselves from are going to see that too. 00:10:23.329 --> 00:10:23.829 What do you think 00:10:23.839 --> 00:10:25.229 Travis Bader: about, let's say your firearm? 00:10:25.505 --> 00:10:27.045 A, uh, stainless barrel. 00:10:27.555 --> 00:10:27.675 And 00:10:27.824 --> 00:10:31.214 Paul Ballard: that, you know, one of the things I truly believe, take 00:10:31.214 --> 00:10:35.704 the time to buy a little bit of that camo wrap tape and throw it on there. 00:10:36.955 --> 00:10:40.665 Blue steel, you know, a nice, you know, we were talking about Brownings today, 00:10:40.685 --> 00:10:45.474 Browning and their, their famous glossy stocks and highly polished blue steel. 00:10:46.164 --> 00:10:47.514 That's going to reflect light. 00:10:48.224 --> 00:10:54.405 Um, We look at, uh, you know, different types of firearms are marketed, uh, 00:10:54.425 --> 00:10:58.295 for different situations, like snow goose shotguns are always going to 00:10:58.295 --> 00:11:02.755 be a white camo that's on there, but you know, if you're hunting 00:11:02.755 --> 00:11:04.925 them in the snow and stuff, that. 00:11:05.275 --> 00:11:10.605 Goes all the way back to our shape concern of that straight vertical, you 00:11:10.605 --> 00:11:16.255 know, or horizontal, or maybe an angled line that's going to stick out because 00:11:16.255 --> 00:11:21.704 it's so straight and it's so, you know, dimensionally different than a branch 00:11:21.704 --> 00:11:26.995 or, uh, you know, the, the stalk of a, of a large plant or anything like that. 00:11:26.995 --> 00:11:27.914 So, you know, yeah. 00:11:27.975 --> 00:11:29.705 Put a little bit of camo wrap on there. 00:11:29.745 --> 00:11:32.975 Be very careful not to obscure your sights in any way. 00:11:33.305 --> 00:11:37.665 If you would be using a shotgun, you don't want to put it so that it, you 00:11:37.665 --> 00:11:41.265 know, as you bring the, you know, the, the vented rib up or anything 00:11:41.265 --> 00:11:44.655 like that, it's going to cause you problems there, but yeah, breaking 00:11:44.655 --> 00:11:46.985 up that long shape is a good idea. 00:11:47.655 --> 00:11:52.375 You can buy all kinds of, you know, wash off paint as well, uh, that 00:11:52.375 --> 00:11:55.685 you can put onto your firearm that, that is not going to hurt it and 00:11:55.685 --> 00:11:57.125 very easy to remove in the end. 00:11:58.365 --> 00:12:04.525 We look at a lot of what's being marketed now, camouflage stocks, um, Cerakote 00:12:04.525 --> 00:12:09.255 and, and the other, you know, coatings that can go on there to cutaway, shine, 00:12:09.894 --> 00:12:14.634 shape, and, you know, and indeed, you know, what might be silhouette as well. 00:12:15.184 --> 00:12:15.404 Yeah. 00:12:15.404 --> 00:12:17.694 That's a, it's a huge consideration. 00:12:18.005 --> 00:12:18.354 Yeah. 00:12:19.525 --> 00:12:20.854 Travis Bader: So I guess we have an M now, 00:12:22.115 --> 00:12:22.585 Paul Ballard: movement. 00:12:23.170 --> 00:12:28.170 Yeah, yeah, a lot of people don't really appreciate is, you know, you got to stay 00:12:28.170 --> 00:12:35.050 still or keep your movements behind a blind or behind the tree, you know, um, 00:12:36.229 --> 00:12:41.060 really is, as you get into this hunting thing or you're experiencing it, you 00:12:41.060 --> 00:12:45.529 start to know how much movement you can get away with and, and the type of 00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:46.739 movement that you can get away with. 00:12:47.920 --> 00:12:53.870 Slow, steady, measured moves tend not to draw attention. 00:12:53.870 --> 00:12:58.780 I've spent lots of time and few things are spookier in a whitetail 00:12:58.780 --> 00:13:03.080 doe when she's trying to look after her fawn and she locks onto you. 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:06.890 And, and that's the time to practice to see how far you 00:13:06.890 --> 00:13:08.719 can push her before she flags. 00:13:09.199 --> 00:13:14.300 Usually it'll be the, the, the, the fawn that'll flag first, but how far can you go 00:13:14.300 --> 00:13:18.930 with her, you know, in, in your movements, but those slow bringing the rifle to bear 00:13:18.930 --> 00:13:24.069 and, and something to practice as well, uh, that you don't panic when you all 00:13:24.069 --> 00:13:28.079 of a sudden spot that game that's out there, snap the rifle or shotgun up to 00:13:28.079 --> 00:13:32.130 your shoulder, and that could potentially spook the, the game that's out there. 00:13:32.209 --> 00:13:35.719 Travis Bader: I've always lived under the doctrine that your number one best 00:13:35.719 --> 00:13:38.750 camouflage that you can have with you is. 00:13:38.964 --> 00:13:43.655 Be still, be still, just be still, uh, over top of anything else that you 00:13:43.655 --> 00:13:47.854 have, because if you're going to see an animal, if you think about it, the 00:13:47.854 --> 00:13:50.874 first thing that usually gives it away is you see movement out of the corner 00:13:50.874 --> 00:13:53.624 of your eye and it catches you and instinctively in the back of our head, 00:13:53.624 --> 00:13:55.555 we just catch this, animals do that. 00:13:55.564 --> 00:13:55.905 So 00:13:56.064 --> 00:13:57.814 Paul Ballard: we're, you know, let's be upfront. 00:13:57.834 --> 00:13:58.724 We're talking about. 00:13:59.020 --> 00:14:01.030 A visual, uh, thing here. 00:14:01.089 --> 00:14:02.290 Well, there's two more S's 00:14:02.290 --> 00:14:02.910 Travis Bader: that we can put in. 00:14:03.079 --> 00:14:03.400 Oh yeah. 00:14:03.400 --> 00:14:05.959 Paul Ballard: But, but let's, let's not forget the most important 00:14:05.959 --> 00:14:09.790 things, honestly, with dealing with animals is scent and sound. 00:14:09.800 --> 00:14:11.530 That's the two more S's I'm talking about. 00:14:11.589 --> 00:14:14.920 Like your scent is the biggest giveaway of all. 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:16.739 And, and I feel that. 00:14:17.375 --> 00:14:21.145 Not enough people pay enough attention to what's the prevailing 00:14:21.145 --> 00:14:25.345 wind, what's it doing with, you know, my scent at the moment. 00:14:25.345 --> 00:14:29.065 I can have the finest, you know, blind camouflage, I'm hidden, I'm 00:14:29.065 --> 00:14:30.405 not moving, and everything else. 00:14:30.754 --> 00:14:33.834 But if the wind is coming from my back and blowing it straight 00:14:33.834 --> 00:14:36.844 at, you know, my intended prey... 00:14:37.430 --> 00:14:42.550 Um, there's a problem and I, and I, I, I said this before in other podcasts, I've 00:14:42.550 --> 00:14:47.770 watched deer walk into a scent line and it's like they walked into a brick wall. 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:51.620 You know, they're, they're, they're kind of aware they're, they're looking 00:14:51.620 --> 00:14:54.630 at something, they're not sure and bam. 00:14:54.850 --> 00:14:59.360 They stop and it's momentary and then they boot, you know, from 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:00.640 that, from that, from that smell. 00:15:00.640 --> 00:15:05.380 So scent, you know, kind of outside of the camouflage thing, but very, very 00:15:05.380 --> 00:15:08.809 important, you know, you, you want to hide yourself to get out there, to be a 00:15:08.810 --> 00:15:13.129 better hunter, you know, take the time to, you know, have a good wash with. 00:15:13.770 --> 00:15:19.080 Unscented products, you know, make sure that, uh, your clothing is properly 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:21.120 washed with an unscented product. 00:15:22.100 --> 00:15:25.350 We go back to, there's one other one that we're going to get to, and it's 00:15:25.350 --> 00:15:30.699 going to be color here in a sec, but the ultraviolet killer in, and a lot of these. 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:33.319 You know, they call them sport wash and other names. 00:15:33.579 --> 00:15:39.050 Very important, you know, to, to kill the, uh, ultraviolet reflection, uh, of, uh, 00:15:39.130 --> 00:15:40.630 Travis Bader: Yeah, your normal detergent will have 00:15:40.630 --> 00:15:41.180 Paul Ballard: a bit of a UV. 00:15:41.180 --> 00:15:41.530 Right. 00:15:41.530 --> 00:15:41.740 Yeah. 00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:44.900 Everybody wants new gain for the scent. 00:15:44.910 --> 00:15:46.140 Cause it smells good. 00:15:46.380 --> 00:15:46.920 To us. 00:15:47.199 --> 00:15:47.750 What's that? 00:15:47.790 --> 00:15:48.359 To us. 00:15:48.400 --> 00:15:49.029 To us. 00:15:49.050 --> 00:15:49.280 Yeah. 00:15:49.280 --> 00:15:50.900 As humans, it smells good. 00:15:51.150 --> 00:15:53.270 And then it also, we want to brighten those colors so 00:15:53.270 --> 00:15:54.579 that, you know, when you've. 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:58.840 Paid good money for that, you know, that Hawaiian shirt or whatever that, you know, 00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:04.430 nice rayon, uh, flowers and bananas and pineapples, it should stand up right. 00:16:04.430 --> 00:16:05.899 And, and that's what you're looking at. 00:16:06.149 --> 00:16:13.150 And surprisingly people spend big money on camouflage clothing and the sizing and 00:16:13.170 --> 00:16:18.100 the brighteners are in that clothing when you buy it and they don't take the time to 00:16:18.100 --> 00:16:20.580 go home and wash it in a UV killer where. 00:16:20.890 --> 00:16:26.960 Even quality camouflage is going to reflect, you know, the, the UV. 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.090 Is it the UV spectrum of light? 00:16:29.390 --> 00:16:29.870 I'm not sure. 00:16:29.870 --> 00:16:31.300 Yeah, I guess that's what it is. 00:16:31.300 --> 00:16:34.859 But you know, you're, you're, you've, you've really got to take the time 00:16:34.860 --> 00:16:40.930 to, to do everything you can because animals are different than us. 00:16:40.969 --> 00:16:47.880 Now we can say unequivocally that the birds see every color that we see. 00:16:48.270 --> 00:16:50.300 Why are birds brilliantly colored? 00:16:50.300 --> 00:16:52.459 Well, that's so they can attract mates. 00:16:52.750 --> 00:16:55.520 That's so that they can come together. 00:16:55.560 --> 00:17:02.249 And, and I would say, uh, essential to, you know, good bird hunting and 00:17:02.249 --> 00:17:08.409 particularly waterfowl hunting and turkey hunting is that you are as invisible 00:17:08.409 --> 00:17:10.929 to that animal as, as can possibly be. 00:17:11.420 --> 00:17:16.190 So breaking up your shape, not reflecting the light, uh, making sure 00:17:16.190 --> 00:17:19.810 that the colors of your clothing are appropriate, uh, nothing that, that, 00:17:19.810 --> 00:17:22.510 that animal is going to be able to see. 00:17:22.689 --> 00:17:25.010 Travis Bader: So I know your thoughts on this because we've talked about 00:17:25.010 --> 00:17:29.040 it before, but I figured it's worth just having it for posterity here. 00:17:29.439 --> 00:17:34.360 Um, for scent, both you and I will carry a little. 00:17:34.570 --> 00:17:39.440 Talk powder dispenser aware of where your wind, we see where the wind is going. 00:17:40.110 --> 00:17:41.570 Some people say, well, I don't need that. 00:17:41.650 --> 00:17:42.910 I've got a lighter later. 00:17:42.910 --> 00:17:45.320 I just flicked the lighter and I can see which way the wind is blowing. 00:17:46.310 --> 00:17:50.050 Paul Ballard: You have a mechanical sound to the click of a Bic lighter. 00:17:50.050 --> 00:17:51.950 Now I, I still use it. 00:17:51.950 --> 00:17:56.379 I still, every once in a while, before I go in, you know, to start 00:17:56.619 --> 00:18:01.999 still hunting into an area, I might click my Bic lighter, but I'm very 00:18:02.620 --> 00:18:04.059 conscious of the fact that that. 00:18:04.310 --> 00:18:08.270 Mechanical, that metallic clack of that lighter can, can give 00:18:08.270 --> 00:18:10.149 myself away to, to a deer. 00:18:10.290 --> 00:18:10.690 Right. 00:18:10.830 --> 00:18:12.070 Um, it's way better. 00:18:12.070 --> 00:18:17.000 You get in, you, and that is the trick with those talc puffers. 00:18:17.290 --> 00:18:19.680 You know, you want to make sure it's shooking up well, because 00:18:20.030 --> 00:18:24.180 there's the movement, there's the, you know, the, the activity that's 00:18:24.190 --> 00:18:26.060 going to draw attention to you. 00:18:26.060 --> 00:18:27.570 So, but they're excellent. 00:18:27.600 --> 00:18:30.120 You know, you give a little bit of puff to the wind. 00:18:30.220 --> 00:18:31.079 You see where it's going. 00:18:31.129 --> 00:18:33.879 If you're not worried about movement or anything else. 00:18:34.735 --> 00:18:39.644 Or, you know, sound is the lighter, but movement, you can pick a little bit of 00:18:39.664 --> 00:18:43.994 dust up off the ground and throw that as well, some, some pine needles, but it's, 00:18:44.055 --> 00:18:49.514 it's worth, you know, the, the three or 4 that it costs to get a little, uh, wind 00:18:49.514 --> 00:18:50.094 Travis Bader: detector. 00:18:50.174 --> 00:18:54.495 One thing that I've found interesting when we talk about the sound portion of 00:18:54.495 --> 00:19:00.884 it is you usually get one free pass, not always, but usually if I make a sound. 00:19:01.785 --> 00:19:04.995 The animal up, alert, ears are going, trying to figure 00:19:04.995 --> 00:19:06.075 out where this is coming from. 00:19:06.615 --> 00:19:09.625 And I better be quiet and not move. 00:19:09.634 --> 00:19:13.765 Be very still, but I find usually one free pass. 00:19:13.794 --> 00:19:16.555 And then the second one, bang, located, gone in the other direction. 00:19:18.460 --> 00:19:22.550 Paul Ballard: What I like to do in a circumstance, like we're going through 00:19:22.550 --> 00:19:26.530 in the last couple of days and days coming up, we're turkey hunting. 00:19:27.940 --> 00:19:32.340 The white tail are everywhere in the woods right now, and we've seen that. 00:19:32.349 --> 00:19:38.069 We've probably seen 50, 60, I don't know, since we've been here. 00:19:38.709 --> 00:19:40.559 And this is the time. 00:19:40.800 --> 00:19:43.140 to test what works, what doesn't. 00:19:43.590 --> 00:19:47.970 So, you know, work the, the, the pump on your shotgun or work the 00:19:47.970 --> 00:19:52.030 bolt on your rifle, you know, click your safety on and off. 00:19:52.050 --> 00:19:53.480 I've listened to people. 00:19:53.900 --> 00:19:58.859 Uh, we were talking about a person there recently, MM, who used to always talk 00:19:58.870 --> 00:20:03.500 about, you know, the rifle he would pick, he was dead against certain types of 00:20:03.500 --> 00:20:05.800 safety because he thought they were too. 00:20:06.030 --> 00:20:09.879 Too noisy, but this is the time to see what you can get away with. 00:20:10.580 --> 00:20:15.230 If there's no turkeys and just whitetail stand in there looking 00:20:15.230 --> 00:20:17.609 at you, you know, test them out. 00:20:17.619 --> 00:20:18.529 Give it a click, see what happens. 00:20:18.530 --> 00:20:18.840 Yeah. 00:20:19.729 --> 00:20:20.029 Okay. 00:20:20.639 --> 00:20:21.569 You know, that's it. 00:20:22.955 --> 00:20:24.034 It's all about learning. 00:20:24.044 --> 00:20:26.475 It's about seeing what you can get, get away with. 00:20:26.975 --> 00:20:29.874 Also, you know, we go back to where's your scent. 00:20:29.925 --> 00:20:34.885 Also, if the wind is in your face, the sound is not going to travel 00:20:34.895 --> 00:20:36.895 necessarily in that direction. 00:20:37.055 --> 00:20:38.205 It may travel that way. 00:20:38.205 --> 00:20:39.664 So all these things to be aware of. 00:20:39.684 --> 00:20:39.884 So 00:20:39.884 --> 00:20:42.585 Travis Bader: one other trick that I'll use, and this is from like 00:20:42.585 --> 00:20:46.115 kiteboarding, it's 101 what they teach you, is you just turn your 00:20:46.115 --> 00:20:48.179 head until you can hear the sound. 00:20:48.320 --> 00:20:51.459 The, or feel the wind in both ears equally. 00:20:51.639 --> 00:20:53.279 And now you're looking directly into it. 00:20:53.549 --> 00:20:56.379 I know a lot of people, they try and get one year or they try and maybe 00:20:57.289 --> 00:21:00.679 wet a finger and feel where it's at, but just turn your head, you get 00:21:00.679 --> 00:21:03.929 the equal sound of both ears, you're looking directly into the wind. 00:21:04.235 --> 00:21:04.635 Yeah. 00:21:04.715 --> 00:21:05.195 Paul Ballard: Okay. 00:21:05.594 --> 00:21:06.824 Well, we'll note that one. 00:21:06.824 --> 00:21:07.524 I'll give that a try. 00:21:07.784 --> 00:21:10.235 I always go by the back of my neck often. 00:21:10.614 --> 00:21:15.434 You know, I feel that's the most sensitive thing I've got to where the wind is 00:21:15.435 --> 00:21:17.195 when it's, when it's coming that way. 00:21:17.614 --> 00:21:23.004 And I've been, take me back to not too far from where we are right now, 00:21:23.435 --> 00:21:26.914 watching the, you know, some whitetail and, and starting to stalk them. 00:21:27.334 --> 00:21:30.294 And as soon as the, the, the wind changes, which it. 00:21:30.649 --> 00:21:32.050 You know, is apt to do. 00:21:32.070 --> 00:21:32.399 Sure. 00:21:32.429 --> 00:21:36.550 I felt it on the back of my neck and all of them snapped their heads back, 00:21:36.570 --> 00:21:38.199 looked at me and booked it for me. 00:21:38.389 --> 00:21:38.679 It's crazy. 00:21:39.050 --> 00:21:39.340 Yeah. 00:21:39.389 --> 00:21:41.659 It's just how much that scent can carry. 00:21:42.730 --> 00:21:43.080 All right. 00:21:43.179 --> 00:21:46.169 Let's bring the other one into the room here. 00:21:46.169 --> 00:21:46.870 Is that color? 00:21:47.009 --> 00:21:47.469 All right. 00:21:47.469 --> 00:21:47.779 Color. 00:21:47.789 --> 00:21:50.050 So we kind of started talking about this. 00:21:50.080 --> 00:21:51.280 Birds can see color. 00:21:52.015 --> 00:21:57.005 So only a fool would go duck hunting wearing a hunter orange 00:21:57.005 --> 00:22:01.375 cap, because that's going to draw that bird's attention to you. 00:22:01.795 --> 00:22:06.345 Now, there is a legal requirement in many parts of this country when 00:22:06.345 --> 00:22:11.885 you're upland bird hunting, that you must wear, you know, a blaze orange. 00:22:11.885 --> 00:22:16.745 But often that type of hunting is approaching that bird that's, that's 00:22:16.745 --> 00:22:19.475 holding cover and, and almost. 00:22:19.850 --> 00:22:24.320 You know, anybody that's worth his salt is using a dog to put upland birds up, uh, 00:22:24.340 --> 00:22:30.110 grouse, maybe not so much, but certainly quail, pheasant, partridge, you know, 00:22:30.110 --> 00:22:31.889 you're, you're going to use the dog. 00:22:31.889 --> 00:22:33.889 So the dog's going to pin the bird. 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:38.389 You, who cares if you've got a neon flashing light on top of your 00:22:38.389 --> 00:22:43.919 head, that bird is trying to hide from you, mostly from your dog. 00:22:44.270 --> 00:22:45.969 And so it doesn't matter, but let's. 00:22:46.165 --> 00:22:49.254 Turn around on the ambush style hunting for birds. 00:22:49.305 --> 00:22:49.524 Well, 00:22:49.565 --> 00:22:51.774 Travis Bader: hold on one point on that one, birds. 00:22:52.305 --> 00:22:55.615 Uh, I knew a fellow, actually I knew his, I think it was his nephew 00:22:55.765 --> 00:22:58.535 and this guy, he raised grouse. 00:22:58.705 --> 00:23:00.744 He'd go and he'd train dogs. 00:23:00.955 --> 00:23:01.495 Raise grouse. 00:23:01.625 --> 00:23:07.325 Yeah, to live cats, he's grouse and he'd take them back and he'd pay helicopter 00:23:07.325 --> 00:23:10.185 pilots, take them up the mountain to remote areas and get different grouse. 00:23:10.185 --> 00:23:14.165 And everyone says, oh, you know, it's a fool's hand, a fool's chicken, right? 00:23:14.475 --> 00:23:17.850 Um, He says, no, no, no, they're actually really smart. 00:23:18.310 --> 00:23:21.430 They've got the camouflage and they sit still. 00:23:21.930 --> 00:23:23.300 It's not that they're stupid. 00:23:23.420 --> 00:23:26.530 They just think if they sit as still as they can, they're using all of 00:23:26.530 --> 00:23:28.060 their camouflage that they have. 00:23:29.465 --> 00:23:32.735 And a lot of times that works, not for so much for a dog, but, uh, 00:23:32.755 --> 00:23:35.375 for humans, like you can walk right beside one and not even see it. 00:23:35.575 --> 00:23:35.785 If, 00:23:36.085 --> 00:23:36.375 and, 00:23:36.415 --> 00:23:39.175 Paul Ballard: and you got to think in anybody that's hunted, you know, 00:23:39.175 --> 00:23:43.955 gross in, in the woods, it's usually when the thing blows up that you 00:23:44.235 --> 00:23:44.925 Travis Bader: actually see it. 00:23:44.995 --> 00:23:46.474 And your heart's thumping out of your body. 00:23:46.505 --> 00:23:46.544 If he 00:23:46.545 --> 00:23:46.935 Paul Ballard: didn't. 00:23:47.265 --> 00:23:51.165 Blow off the ground like that with all the wing flapping and, and 00:23:51.165 --> 00:23:54.075 everything else goes along, you probably wouldn't have noticed. 00:23:54.145 --> 00:23:54.505 Yeah. 00:23:54.975 --> 00:23:59.355 You typically see them because of their shape when you're, you know, 00:23:59.355 --> 00:24:03.454 going down a road or down a, you know, through a logging slash or 00:24:03.524 --> 00:24:05.104 on a skidder trail or whatever. 00:24:05.534 --> 00:24:08.285 It's their shape that gives them away or their movement. 00:24:08.295 --> 00:24:08.765 Right. 00:24:08.815 --> 00:24:10.375 But if they're holding still. 00:24:10.555 --> 00:24:13.544 They're very effective in using your camouflage. 00:24:13.824 --> 00:24:20.970 So, again, we tend to, um, like those are the, The type of birds that, you 00:24:20.970 --> 00:24:25.630 know, we are looking for, we're trying to find, so it's working, but it's 00:24:25.630 --> 00:24:29.049 the other birds that we're trying to hide from that we want to call to us. 00:24:29.430 --> 00:24:34.679 Uh, so waterfowl, classic, you know, you put your, your decoy set out there and 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:39.436 you, you commence to call, uh, you're hoping for a bird passing by that's 00:24:39.436 --> 00:24:41.150 going to maybe see your decoy set. 00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:45.220 So it's important that everything looks good to that animal as it's 00:24:45.220 --> 00:24:47.760 coming towards the potential decoys. 00:24:47.790 --> 00:24:48.180 We're. 00:24:48.235 --> 00:24:51.545 Turkey hunting, we're putting out decoys, we're calling and everything else. 00:24:51.765 --> 00:24:56.365 So all that bird should see is what it believes to be other members 00:24:56.365 --> 00:25:00.395 of its species or, you know, akin to it that it's going to come to, 00:25:01.435 --> 00:25:03.515 you should be not in the picture. 00:25:03.965 --> 00:25:07.125 So you got to understand that if that bird has, you know, the, the 00:25:07.135 --> 00:25:08.904 cone cells in its eyes to see. 00:25:08.945 --> 00:25:10.605 All the colors of the spectrum. 00:25:11.125 --> 00:25:13.225 So your coloration has to be right. 00:25:13.635 --> 00:25:15.375 You can't have that big pink face. 00:25:15.375 --> 00:25:18.775 You can't have, you know, that the emblem on your ball cap. 00:25:19.135 --> 00:25:21.505 Uh, you can't have your watch, your rings. 00:25:21.705 --> 00:25:24.225 You can't have the shine off your firearm, all that. 00:25:24.505 --> 00:25:28.395 Incredibly important with those animals, but the color is, is the big thing. 00:25:29.389 --> 00:25:31.030 Let's move over to the ungulates. 00:25:31.290 --> 00:25:31.999 Before we do that, 00:25:32.810 --> 00:25:35.480 Travis Bader: the color blue, I've heard this before, have you heard this? 00:25:35.510 --> 00:25:40.630 The color blue is something that, uh, tends to stand out to ungulates. 00:25:40.630 --> 00:25:40.909 Well, that's 00:25:40.910 --> 00:25:41.820 Paul Ballard: what I was going to say. 00:25:41.830 --> 00:25:42.319 Oh, is it? 00:25:42.349 --> 00:25:43.540 I thought we were moving on from color. 00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:44.009 No, no. 00:25:44.009 --> 00:25:44.480 Oh, no, no. 00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:45.689 But this is still in the color. 00:25:45.730 --> 00:25:49.100 Now, keeping with the color, when now we're dealing with big game, so you 00:25:49.100 --> 00:25:54.840 know, all of the deer species, they are known and deer species, uh, again, 00:25:54.840 --> 00:25:58.420 the bovids, the bison, uh, go cheap. 00:25:58.875 --> 00:26:03.665 They are all red and green blind. 00:26:04.544 --> 00:26:10.135 So in their color blindness, so they don't see, but they all see shades of 00:26:10.135 --> 00:26:13.154 gray, black, and the blue spectrum. 00:26:13.475 --> 00:26:18.905 So the worst color you could possibly, you know, select, you know, if you, if you 00:26:18.905 --> 00:26:23.784 were avoiding, you know, khaki, olive drab and so on would be anything that's blue. 00:26:24.705 --> 00:26:30.535 Um, and I still remember too, you know, hunting with a individual who wore a 00:26:30.835 --> 00:26:36.205 neoprene neck strap on his binoculars and it was like an electric blue, he 00:26:36.205 --> 00:26:39.875 was a cheapskate, he would never buy anything that, you know, other than 00:26:39.875 --> 00:26:44.835 it was price point, but you know, this soft neoprene neck strap, man, 00:26:44.835 --> 00:26:47.065 you could see that thing forever. 00:26:47.065 --> 00:26:51.455 And I, and now, you know, understanding more to this day about how that. 00:26:51.895 --> 00:26:54.965 Part of the, you know, the light spectrum is visible to the ungulate. 00:26:55.595 --> 00:27:01.475 So we see many, many parts of, of North America where the regulations say 00:27:01.475 --> 00:27:06.705 you, you have to wear a hunter orange, uh, when you're big game hunting and 00:27:06.705 --> 00:27:09.025 people think here in British Columbia. 00:27:09.190 --> 00:27:10.570 There is no such a regulation. 00:27:10.570 --> 00:27:13.260 We, we can wear anything we want. 00:27:13.290 --> 00:27:17.040 There's no, nothing says you, you have to, you know, have some high 00:27:17.040 --> 00:27:21.120 visibility clothing on if, for this particular type of hunt, and we're only 00:27:21.125 --> 00:27:26.130 a, you know, a province away, Alberta requires that Washington state, you 00:27:26.130 --> 00:27:28.050 know, requires that Idaho requires it. 00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:32.220 Montana requires that, you know, all these different rules about what 00:27:32.220 --> 00:27:33.540 color clothing, we don't have that. 00:27:33.780 --> 00:27:33.990 Mm-hmm. 00:27:35.470 --> 00:27:40.774 . But the bottom line is, When you see this blaze orange, uh, camouflage clothing, 00:27:40.774 --> 00:27:44.444 you know, it has like, it looks like branches and everything else in that, 00:27:45.014 --> 00:27:48.454 you know, and as much as you think, oh my God, everybody's going to see me, the 00:27:48.454 --> 00:27:52.504 animals are not going to, the ungulates, uh, are not going to pick that up. 00:27:52.544 --> 00:27:52.934 Right. 00:27:53.004 --> 00:27:54.054 So breaking your pattern. 00:27:54.064 --> 00:27:54.344 Right. 00:27:54.354 --> 00:27:59.705 You're, you're, you're achieving that shape issue, perhaps 00:27:59.705 --> 00:28:01.944 the silhouette issue, but. 00:28:02.385 --> 00:28:07.335 If you, you know, do have concerns about people seeing you while you're 00:28:07.335 --> 00:28:11.595 out there, a lot of people have this mindset that, Oh yeah, people are shooting 00:28:11.595 --> 00:28:12.764 everywhere and people are getting shot. 00:28:12.805 --> 00:28:13.915 It's not really the case. 00:28:13.955 --> 00:28:19.085 Like, you know, in, in the entire country, two, maybe three people in 00:28:19.085 --> 00:28:24.085 a year might die, uh, as a result of being shot in a hunting accident. 00:28:24.375 --> 00:28:26.044 It's, it's not realistic to. 00:28:26.105 --> 00:28:27.534 That's higher than I would think, honestly. 00:28:27.575 --> 00:28:27.815 Yeah. 00:28:27.815 --> 00:28:28.465 And I don't even think it. 00:28:28.860 --> 00:28:33.710 You know, it's that much, like I know the United States, they show maybe states 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:38.230 where it's two or three people and you think, well, British Columbia, a hundred 00:28:38.230 --> 00:28:41.099 thousand hunters, uh, taking out licenses. 00:28:41.129 --> 00:28:44.569 It's, it's really not something that we're hearing about or anything else. 00:28:44.945 --> 00:28:48.135 And occasionally, you know, when people are being shot, it's not that they're 00:28:48.145 --> 00:28:53.155 being shot because, you know, somebody seeing them out in, you know, at distance 00:28:53.155 --> 00:28:57.475 in the field, it's usually stuff like somebody walks in front of a muzzle. 00:28:57.764 --> 00:29:01.185 Um, you know, they're, they're trying to take dangerous game and they're 00:29:01.185 --> 00:29:02.924 not paying attention to whatever. 00:29:02.925 --> 00:29:05.105 It's not really, you know. 00:29:05.665 --> 00:29:10.055 The need for the high visibility clothing, but it's still a good idea. 00:29:10.085 --> 00:29:11.805 It just adds a measure of safety. 00:29:12.225 --> 00:29:12.485 No, 00:29:12.485 --> 00:29:15.585 Travis Bader: I actually know a fellow who was bison hunting. 00:29:15.725 --> 00:29:16.004 Yeah. 00:29:16.845 --> 00:29:17.685 Did I tell you about this one? 00:29:17.695 --> 00:29:18.075 No, no. 00:29:18.115 --> 00:29:25.395 He was out on his bright red quad and, uh, Two shots, someone took two shots at him. 00:29:25.645 --> 00:29:28.885 Actually, he's, uh, planning to be on the podcast at some point, but just 00:29:28.885 --> 00:29:31.765 having to lock him down cause he's a farmer and he's got a pretty busy 00:29:31.765 --> 00:29:31.824 Paul Ballard: schedule. 00:29:31.825 --> 00:29:33.225 Yeah, but now he's bright 00:29:33.225 --> 00:29:33.674 Travis Bader: red. 00:29:33.885 --> 00:29:34.655 Bright red. 00:29:34.665 --> 00:29:37.114 And another hunter thought he was a bison. 00:29:37.315 --> 00:29:37.515 I 00:29:37.515 --> 00:29:37.825 Paul Ballard: don't know. 00:29:37.844 --> 00:29:38.554 Or what? 00:29:38.755 --> 00:29:39.155 Or what? 00:29:39.235 --> 00:29:40.264 Or yeah, that's right. 00:29:40.355 --> 00:29:43.645 And then, I mean, he's doing everything he can. 00:29:43.655 --> 00:29:46.375 Like some people say, well, I'd rather be camouflaged and sitting 00:29:46.375 --> 00:29:49.384 still when there's other hunters about so that they don't see me. 00:29:50.590 --> 00:29:56.530 Done this since, you know, I was a kid, this is like 50 years of being out in 00:29:56.540 --> 00:29:58.570 the woods, you know, spring and fall. 00:29:59.050 --> 00:30:04.580 I've never felt that somebody had taken a shot at me, you know, at, at me, 00:30:04.670 --> 00:30:06.899 I've heard shots going through the air. 00:30:06.899 --> 00:30:10.550 I've heard, you know, being in a blind or being lower, you know, 00:30:10.550 --> 00:30:11.830 than where people are shooting. 00:30:11.830 --> 00:30:16.610 I've heard that, but I've never thought that I was actually being shot at. 00:30:16.690 --> 00:30:17.820 Oh, wait. 00:30:18.495 --> 00:30:23.765 Paul Jacobson and I were, were duck hunting once and we got shot at, 00:30:24.565 --> 00:30:27.815 but it was, we're duck hunting and somebody kind of, I think they were 00:30:27.995 --> 00:30:32.665 the, like they were tracking a low flying teal and, uh, we saw it coming. 00:30:32.665 --> 00:30:37.065 We basically turned away from it and, you know, felt a little bit of a shot, 00:30:37.134 --> 00:30:38.815 but that would, that would be it. 00:30:39.015 --> 00:30:43.635 But honestly, I, it's not a huge concern, but going back to that. 00:30:43.980 --> 00:30:46.820 If it gives you a measure of, you know, personal security or 00:30:46.820 --> 00:30:50.490 feelings, you don't have to worry about wearing those bright colors. 00:30:51.130 --> 00:30:54.199 Now, colors, camouflage, camouflage specific. 00:30:54.810 --> 00:30:58.719 We love to go to, you know, the local, you know. 00:30:59.120 --> 00:31:02.900 Supplier of the latest and greatest in camouflage. 00:31:03.170 --> 00:31:06.770 And if you do the slightest bit of reading, people will say, well, you 00:31:06.770 --> 00:31:12.300 know, our, you know, XYZ style of camouflage, let's call it, you know, 00:31:12.770 --> 00:31:15.229 timber withering, you know, whatever. 00:31:15.380 --> 00:31:16.150 Version 7. 00:31:16.330 --> 00:31:16.530 2. 00:31:16.530 --> 00:31:21.460 Old man, seven ghost, you know, version completely mimicking the 00:31:21.470 --> 00:31:25.200 bark of the Douglas fir tree, you know, is, is the answer. 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:26.800 And, and people will buy into that. 00:31:27.210 --> 00:31:31.169 And I honestly think, you know, you see people buying camouflage 00:31:31.219 --> 00:31:33.160 to appeal to their own eye. 00:31:33.370 --> 00:31:35.400 For the lot of part, that's exactly what it is. 00:31:35.450 --> 00:31:35.800 And. 00:31:36.145 --> 00:31:39.545 What does it matter whether you buy the same patterned pants 00:31:39.545 --> 00:31:41.125 is the same patterned shirt. 00:31:41.445 --> 00:31:44.905 The idea is you want to break up your shape, your silhouette, you know. 00:31:44.945 --> 00:31:45.535 As long as you don't 00:31:45.535 --> 00:31:47.984 Travis Bader: have like horizontal on one and vertical on the other one. 00:31:48.014 --> 00:31:51.025 Paul Ballard: Yeah, but you know, and then, and then we look at, you know, 00:31:51.035 --> 00:31:54.835 the military is the greatest one for camouflage, you know, you look at 00:31:54.905 --> 00:31:56.425 tiger, you know, the Vietnam era. 00:31:56.930 --> 00:32:01.710 Tiger stripe, which is definitely a black line through it. 00:32:01.930 --> 00:32:07.190 And almost to my eye stands out, but you know, in certain applications that go 00:32:07.190 --> 00:32:09.130 through, you look at the U S military. 00:32:09.130 --> 00:32:11.950 Now, every one of their working dress uniforms. 00:32:12.070 --> 00:32:16.930 Is camouflage, um, you know, but the Navy has a bit of blue in theirs and 00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:21.850 the Air Force is kind of a grayish green, you know, uh, the Marines has 00:32:21.850 --> 00:32:25.560 got some more brown in it wall, but that's it, unless they're being deployed 00:32:25.560 --> 00:32:27.520 in the desert, all these things. 00:32:27.609 --> 00:32:28.209 I guess one 00:32:28.220 --> 00:32:29.210 Travis Bader: thing to think about when you're. 00:32:29.355 --> 00:32:32.615 Wearing that camouflage is not to accentuate points on your body. 00:32:32.675 --> 00:32:37.135 And, you know, it's like when you're being taught how to put face paint on 00:32:37.135 --> 00:32:40.854 and they say, you take a flashlight, put it under your face, the parts that go 00:32:40.864 --> 00:32:43.885 dark, you make bright, the parts that go bright, you make dark, and you just 00:32:43.885 --> 00:32:45.504 kind of opposite everything up, right? 00:32:45.514 --> 00:32:45.805 You put a 00:32:45.805 --> 00:32:46.895 Paul Ballard: mesh veil on your face. 00:32:46.895 --> 00:32:47.565 Or you put a mesh veil on it. 00:32:47.614 --> 00:32:48.355 Yeah, just to, 00:32:48.545 --> 00:32:48.695 Travis Bader: you know. 00:32:48.765 --> 00:32:51.235 But the same thought pattern, if you're going to be wearing something, if 00:32:51.235 --> 00:32:55.055 it's accentuating your shoulders or accentuating lines in ways that, uh, 00:32:55.445 --> 00:32:55.735 Paul Ballard: you wouldn't want. 00:32:55.735 --> 00:33:00.800 And I think every military, modern military You know, of the, in the world 00:33:01.020 --> 00:33:05.090 has spent a huge amount of money listening to some experts saying, you know, this 00:33:05.120 --> 00:33:08.870 digital pattern is going to be better than this leaf pattern is going to be 00:33:08.870 --> 00:33:11.219 better than this grass pattern and so on. 00:33:11.310 --> 00:33:15.239 Travis Bader: Or they get Guy Kramer from Silvercore podcast five, I think it was. 00:33:15.600 --> 00:33:15.810 Yeah. 00:33:15.810 --> 00:33:18.820 That's the Gore Optifade line, that's his creation. 00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:19.370 And what 00:33:19.370 --> 00:33:22.760 Paul Ballard: you got to look at is it's the human eye that 00:33:22.760 --> 00:33:24.100 they're trying to deceive. 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:29.110 The human eye that is fully equipped with, you know, Rods and cones. 00:33:29.120 --> 00:33:30.070 Rods and cones. 00:33:30.070 --> 00:33:34.200 And the cone cells, which can of course see all the colors and visual 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:38.510 acuity and everything else that the animals, the ungulates will lack. 00:33:39.069 --> 00:33:41.530 So let's go back to the color. 00:33:42.730 --> 00:33:45.270 I'm going to spend big money on this outdoor gear. 00:33:45.280 --> 00:33:49.240 I want it to be windproof, weatherproof, you know, shed the rain, repel 00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:50.730 the rain or whatever like this. 00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:53.390 Hunting season for me. 00:33:54.570 --> 00:33:58.050 And a lot of guys is like 10 days in the fall. 00:33:59.120 --> 00:34:01.620 So you're, are you really justified? 00:34:01.650 --> 00:34:06.449 And this is where we, when we've had this discussion about having this talk, 00:34:07.590 --> 00:34:12.509 is it justified to spend the amount of money you do to buy camouflage clothing? 00:34:13.335 --> 00:34:19.335 For 10 days, or should you be out there buying really good outdoor gear with its 00:34:19.345 --> 00:34:25.545 insulating value, it's, you know, water repellent, water shedding value, uh, 00:34:25.565 --> 00:34:28.095 it's wear resistance and everything else. 00:34:28.325 --> 00:34:35.015 So if you were to buy it in a drab gray or green or light colored brown or something 00:34:35.015 --> 00:34:39.755 like that, wouldn't that serve in a lot of cases, your purposes, you know. 00:34:40.020 --> 00:34:45.800 Better because then come your camping trip or your backpacking trip, or 00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:49.589 you're going to the sports field to watch your kid play soccer in the 00:34:49.590 --> 00:34:55.100 pouring rain, you're not necessarily standing there wearing camouflage. 00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:57.199 Travis Bader: That brings up an interesting point. 00:34:57.560 --> 00:34:59.260 Cause my favorite color is camouflage. 00:34:59.460 --> 00:35:01.000 Well, that brings up an interesting point. 00:35:01.010 --> 00:35:06.590 There's a couple of months ago, I was in Nuremberg, uh, and I was having dinner 00:35:06.590 --> 00:35:11.590 with the head of training for the Bavarian region for firearms and hunter education. 00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:11.860 Yeah. 00:35:12.495 --> 00:35:15.755 And camouflage, now they've got a very traditional approach. 00:35:15.755 --> 00:35:16.895 I think it's, what was he saying? 00:35:16.895 --> 00:35:20.295 A year and a quarter it takes for someone to go through and get their hunter 00:35:20.295 --> 00:35:25.105 education and learning about dogs and about bugs and about, uh, the ecology, all 00:35:25.105 --> 00:35:30.034 of this different thing, but part of their hunter ethics and their, uh, their program 00:35:30.054 --> 00:35:35.835 is, you know, you're out there in an area, public land, and you run into somebody 00:35:35.835 --> 00:35:37.075 else who's a non hunter and you're. 00:35:37.090 --> 00:35:39.050 Decked out head to toe in camouflage. 00:35:39.680 --> 00:35:43.290 And what sort of an interaction are they going to be having with you as opposed 00:35:43.310 --> 00:35:47.310 to, and he's a big proponent of the traditional German style garb when you're. 00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:49.080 Paul Ballard: Kind of that foresty green. 00:35:49.120 --> 00:35:49.560 Right. 00:35:49.590 --> 00:35:52.529 With black leather accents on your, you know. 00:35:52.570 --> 00:35:52.810 Right. 00:35:52.950 --> 00:35:53.140 But 00:35:53.959 --> 00:35:56.810 Travis Bader: wherever somebody sits on that spectrum of, Oh, it 00:35:56.810 --> 00:36:00.270 doesn't matter what other people think, or I want to be, I'm conscious 00:36:00.270 --> 00:36:01.980 about that social aspect of it. 00:36:02.270 --> 00:36:03.000 The fact is. 00:36:03.335 --> 00:36:07.985 He and many others are extremely successful wearing their olive 00:36:08.005 --> 00:36:10.675 drab and their, their beiges and. 00:36:10.775 --> 00:36:11.335 My old 00:36:11.364 --> 00:36:12.895 Paul Ballard: man hunted all those years. 00:36:12.904 --> 00:36:16.075 He wasn't the greatest hunter in the world, but he never wore camouflage. 00:36:16.085 --> 00:36:16.395 Sure. 00:36:16.455 --> 00:36:18.295 He had a big old, you know. 00:36:18.660 --> 00:36:23.660 Knit sweater and, uh, he actually had a buckskin jacket that he made out 00:36:23.660 --> 00:36:27.200 of, well, buckskin, it was an elkskin jacket with fringe and everything. 00:36:27.200 --> 00:36:29.930 He used to horseback hunt all the time and he used to wear that. 00:36:30.180 --> 00:36:30.840 So who knows? 00:36:30.859 --> 00:36:32.520 I mean, that's a whole other thing. 00:36:32.529 --> 00:36:33.670 Old Jeremiah Johnson. 00:36:33.729 --> 00:36:34.039 Yeah. 00:36:34.050 --> 00:36:37.290 Hunting off a horseback, the horses can be your camouflage in a bit of 00:36:37.290 --> 00:36:43.960 a way too, but I don't think anybody should hide what they're doing to 00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:47.110 say, well, I'm not going to wear camouflage because I'm embarrassed. 00:36:47.635 --> 00:36:48.885 With certain people about hunting. 00:36:48.895 --> 00:36:50.165 You should never be that way. 00:36:50.165 --> 00:36:53.835 You should, you should celebrate the fact that you are in the 00:36:53.835 --> 00:36:54.905 outdoors and you want to hunt. 00:36:54.945 --> 00:36:58.615 And if you want to wear camouflage, I'm not, uh, this is not an 00:36:58.625 --> 00:37:01.475 advocacy to stop wearing camouflage. 00:37:01.574 --> 00:37:01.864 No. 00:37:01.864 --> 00:37:07.024 This is, I'm, I'm advocating for the guy that's making the decision to maybe buy, 00:37:07.325 --> 00:37:11.015 you know, a solid color, you know, maybe. 00:37:11.190 --> 00:37:15.960 khaki, maybe gray, maybe brown, even, you know, like a dull 00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:17.370 red or something like that. 00:37:17.370 --> 00:37:21.580 It don't be afraid, you know, you're going to get way more use out of 00:37:21.730 --> 00:37:23.309 a piece of clothing like that. 00:37:23.390 --> 00:37:27.439 And you can still wear it for hunting and you can, you know, break up your shape 00:37:27.460 --> 00:37:33.440 maybe by throwing a vest on like I've got on, but man, again, dig this plaid shirt. 00:37:34.080 --> 00:37:37.080 What's the difference between that and camouflage? 00:37:37.120 --> 00:37:38.390 That's breaking up my shape. 00:37:38.390 --> 00:37:42.940 It's got all these really, you know, neutral tones that wouldn't be 00:37:42.940 --> 00:37:44.850 seen by an animal that's out there. 00:37:45.290 --> 00:37:46.250 I'm good. 00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:50.490 Uh, some of the other things too, like camouflage gaiters, you know, 00:37:50.899 --> 00:37:52.320 will help break up your shape. 00:37:52.600 --> 00:37:55.840 You know, maybe you've got a solid color pair of pants on and a, and 00:37:55.840 --> 00:38:01.200 a camouflage vest between that, you know, top and bottom, maybe a camo 00:38:01.220 --> 00:38:03.510 hat, you know, those types of things. 00:38:05.230 --> 00:38:05.739 I don't know. 00:38:06.240 --> 00:38:09.990 You get more, more mileage out of that really expensive, high 00:38:09.990 --> 00:38:11.330 tech clothing that's out there. 00:38:12.660 --> 00:38:17.510 We look at our dads, our grandfathers, you know, and great grandfathers, 00:38:17.610 --> 00:38:18.949 they didn't wear camouflage. 00:38:19.010 --> 00:38:20.090 It didn't matter where it was. 00:38:20.090 --> 00:38:21.640 That was not a thing. 00:38:22.230 --> 00:38:23.839 Uh, they wore, you know... 00:38:24.935 --> 00:38:27.995 They wore plaids, they wore, you know, and then again, the high tech 00:38:28.005 --> 00:38:29.705 clothing of those days was wool. 00:38:29.905 --> 00:38:30.155 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:38:30.275 --> 00:38:31.525 Wool, good old wool, nice 00:38:31.525 --> 00:38:31.915 Paul Ballard: woolly pull. 00:38:31.915 --> 00:38:35.064 Good old wool, you know, it was quiet, it was warm, uh, it would 00:38:35.065 --> 00:38:37.484 shed the water, uh, to some degree. 00:38:37.795 --> 00:38:42.474 Um, if you're really stuck, you put on a rubber jacket. 00:38:43.055 --> 00:38:47.745 You know, and, and again, I always say too, the good thing about rain, 00:38:47.905 --> 00:38:51.645 shine becomes a bit less of an issue because, you know, the leaves are 00:38:51.645 --> 00:38:53.174 shining from the rain and stuff. 00:38:53.465 --> 00:38:58.304 So if you are wearing a solid colored, you know, rubber jacket, it's not 00:38:58.305 --> 00:38:59.905 that big of a deal in the rain. 00:39:00.505 --> 00:39:02.455 Sound is not that big of a deal in the rain. 00:39:02.455 --> 00:39:05.815 When it's really hammering down with rain, you know, that's the time 00:39:05.815 --> 00:39:09.625 to move and, and get out there and without worrying about your sound. 00:39:09.655 --> 00:39:12.104 But again, our forefathers. 00:39:12.285 --> 00:39:14.995 They hunted for years, blue jeans, plaid jackets. 00:39:15.305 --> 00:39:15.875 It works. 00:39:16.105 --> 00:39:16.455 Yeah. 00:39:16.505 --> 00:39:22.485 And so those guys were probably better at their movement, um, you know, at, 00:39:22.575 --> 00:39:27.505 at not exposing themselves, staying in the shadows, all that can go forward. 00:39:28.225 --> 00:39:34.544 We, you know, we should never, ever, ever be ashamed of our hunter's heritage. 00:39:34.734 --> 00:39:37.554 And if, if wearing camouflage is a part of that, that's fine. 00:39:37.794 --> 00:39:38.234 I'm just. 00:39:38.840 --> 00:39:43.420 Advocating for those people that go, man, you know, when I go home and tell 00:39:43.430 --> 00:39:51.060 mama how much this suit costs, because you could go to the big box stores and 00:39:51.060 --> 00:39:56.689 you know, starts with a W and they got a whole hangar full of camouflage clothing 00:39:56.689 --> 00:40:01.849 and it's reasonably priced, but it ain't necessarily the best high tech stuff. 00:40:01.889 --> 00:40:04.929 You know, it'll, it'll probably be warm enough. 00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:08.810 But it doesn't, you know, it may not have all those, you know, pit zips and 00:40:08.810 --> 00:40:13.410 breathability and, and the things you really want, if you want to get into some 00:40:13.410 --> 00:40:15.589 of the more technical aspects of hunting. 00:40:16.059 --> 00:40:17.360 And that's going to be a comfort thing for you. 00:40:17.370 --> 00:40:17.850 Right. 00:40:17.900 --> 00:40:22.110 And, and so we see, you know, these specialist companies, you know, the 00:40:22.120 --> 00:40:26.379 letter K jumps out immediately in my mind. 00:40:26.379 --> 00:40:27.059 Kmart, yes. 00:40:27.099 --> 00:40:31.740 Yeah, no, not Kmart, but you know, those, uh, those types of. 00:40:31.895 --> 00:40:35.495 Very, very high end technical clothing. 00:40:35.505 --> 00:40:41.685 You're paying 400 for a pair of pants, 400. 00:40:42.124 --> 00:40:43.195 Like a lot of people. 00:40:43.225 --> 00:40:44.705 And you're afraid to sit by a campfire. 00:40:45.005 --> 00:40:48.185 Because they're going to be a spark hole in it or something like that. 00:40:48.185 --> 00:40:50.325 Now they're great because they're breathable. 00:40:50.525 --> 00:40:52.025 You can kneel in the snow. 00:40:52.025 --> 00:40:54.985 You're not going to get wet through and everything else like that. 00:40:55.595 --> 00:40:56.335 But darn it. 00:40:56.335 --> 00:40:57.115 If you get. 00:40:57.130 --> 00:41:01.840 that and it's in camel and you would really like to wear that on, 00:41:01.850 --> 00:41:06.430 you know, maybe a cross country ski trip or something like that. 00:41:06.875 --> 00:41:10.685 You know, and everybody's looking at you like, whoo, well, heck, you 00:41:10.685 --> 00:41:11.755 know, why are you wearing camo? 00:41:11.985 --> 00:41:15.655 Now, again, don't be afraid, but you should never be ashamed. 00:41:15.795 --> 00:41:16.835 Yeah, never be ashamed. 00:41:16.835 --> 00:41:21.774 But if you, if you want to get like sore, more mileage out of your money, you know. 00:41:22.225 --> 00:41:24.485 Don't be afraid, the deer won't care. 00:41:25.135 --> 00:41:25.825 They won't care. 00:41:26.385 --> 00:41:28.665 Travis Bader: Well, Paul, I think that was a good fireside chat. 00:41:28.895 --> 00:41:29.805 Maybe that's what we'll call this, 00:41:29.805 --> 00:41:30.735 Paul Ballard: fireside chats. 00:41:30.735 --> 00:41:30.945 Yeah. 00:41:31.914 --> 00:41:33.355 Yeah, another, another fireside. 00:41:33.595 --> 00:41:35.925 I just want to talk a little bit more about the turkey hunting. 00:41:35.954 --> 00:41:37.745 It's not going well. 00:41:37.994 --> 00:41:39.494 Uh, two hens this morning. 00:41:39.505 --> 00:41:40.145 That's it. 00:41:40.514 --> 00:41:42.404 Couple of calls, very lame. 00:41:42.495 --> 00:41:44.255 Travis Bader: Should we talk about, uh, seafoam? 00:41:46.645 --> 00:41:46.905 Oh 00:41:46.905 --> 00:41:47.225 Paul Ballard: yeah. 00:41:47.455 --> 00:41:48.185 So yeah. 00:41:48.395 --> 00:41:48.755 So. 00:41:49.345 --> 00:41:54.215 Yes, hunting equipment that only gets used in the hunting season. 00:41:54.475 --> 00:41:59.695 And, and may that include your, your UTV or your side by side, 00:41:59.695 --> 00:42:01.974 your ATV or your quad, whatever. 00:42:02.304 --> 00:42:06.344 And of course you like to protect it by dumping things into your 00:42:06.585 --> 00:42:09.085 gas can, into your gas tank. 00:42:09.095 --> 00:42:09.955 And then what happened to 00:42:09.955 --> 00:42:10.235 Travis Bader: us? 00:42:10.245 --> 00:42:13.415 So it gets put away for storage last hunting season, 00:42:13.415 --> 00:42:14.715 comes out this hunting season. 00:42:14.915 --> 00:42:19.385 Put some seafoam, little octane, some, uh, not much. 00:42:19.905 --> 00:42:25.055 That, what, you know what I'm trying to recall if I doubled up or what, but. 00:42:25.095 --> 00:42:26.955 Paul Ballard: Clearly more than what it needed. 00:42:26.965 --> 00:42:27.765 Something 00:42:28.045 --> 00:42:30.724 Travis Bader: went awry, a lot more heat coming out. 00:42:30.755 --> 00:42:32.285 Vehicle's not working the way it should. 00:42:32.285 --> 00:42:34.584 The license plate, I should post a picture of that license plate. 00:42:34.585 --> 00:42:35.545 Yeah, it's pretty good. 00:42:35.575 --> 00:42:37.355 It's pretty brown and charcoal y right now. 00:42:38.245 --> 00:42:40.795 But, uh, yeah, test your kid out. 00:42:40.865 --> 00:42:41.755 The smell 00:42:42.105 --> 00:42:43.255 Paul Ballard: was burning celery. 00:42:43.265 --> 00:42:43.935 Burnt celery. 00:42:44.180 --> 00:42:45.160 Burning celery. 00:42:45.160 --> 00:42:47.090 That's, that's the only way I could describe it. 00:42:47.090 --> 00:42:51.200 But yeah, she, she was running hot and then not running well. 00:42:51.200 --> 00:42:53.360 So yeah, we'll finish up with that. 00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:56.160 I don't know if we were chasing the turkey away with that. 00:42:56.950 --> 00:42:57.520 Perhaps. 00:42:57.930 --> 00:43:02.780 Uh, but you know what, Travis, it's been amazing coming out here, 00:43:02.790 --> 00:43:06.869 watching you set up for, for doing this, this little production here. 00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:11.390 And, uh, you know, I, I hope the folks out there, you know, are, 00:43:11.430 --> 00:43:14.800 are enjoying all of the stuff that you're putting forward for them. 00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:17.560 And, and I'm very honored to be a part of this. 00:43:17.710 --> 00:43:18.160 That's a fun. 00:43:18.490 --> 00:43:19.240 Travis Bader: Thanks so much for being 00:43:19.240 --> 00:43:19.270 Paul Ballard: here. 00:43:20.020 --> 00:43:20.400 All right.