Intro: Having the experience of listening and not talking.
Let Me Run This By You: I want to stop doing comparisons.
Interview: We talk to
Erikka Yancy about developing an eating disorder, facing the not so nice qualities of her younger self, cutthroat environments, becoming a documentary film producer, going to grad school at
AFI,
One Flea Spare, being one of only a very few students of color, unlikely hikers.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1: (
00:08)
I'm Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina [inaudible]. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Multiple projects together? I, for some reason it just never hit me.
Speaker 2: (
00:34)
We also had that same. I feel like it's because we never felt like, well, I'll speak for myself. I never felt like I fit in there. So, so if you, if I don't fit in somewhere, I'm not going to be like, Hey, so-and-so let's, but, but you're right. I mean, I think the, the resources and the, um, people available to us are the same people that were available to them. You're so right. I think it just, for me, it's psychology. It just comes down to not feeling worthy or, um, interesting or whatever enough to say to someone, Hey, let's do a project together or let's, you know? Absolutely. And it is sad. And, and I think I always it's through graduation, after graduate, I always had the feeling like I, it was a mistake that they let me stay there. It was a mistake that I was ever led in, in the first place I didn't really belong to, you know, so then you'd think, well, but everybody else did everybody, but me deserved to be there. And so they all get to reuse their cohorts. Right, right. Of, uh, of the school. I mean, I use their connections, reap the rewards. I definitely feel the same way. And I also, I also felt like, and I feel like this at grad school too, that I didn't fit in. And so I didn't use use my grad school connections when I was starting out as a therapist. Like, it's just, I didn't use any of my connections anywhere ever. I have never, I have never.
Speaker 1: (
02:09)
Yeah. Even when I was a therapist too, Aaron would always be saying,
Speaker 2: (
02:13)
Give me like, like an example was, this is a very, this is not related, but it's related. Ah, I remember when we were living in New York and he was in his residency and I needed a doctor's appointment or something like that. And I called and it, and I kind of needed to be seen urgently, but, um, they didn't have any appointments. And so I had to take one that was whatever, in two weeks, and I told them about it. And he was like, did you say that you were married to me? And I said, no, why, why would I do that? He's like, Gina, you have to say, you have to call back and say, I'm Dr. Krasner's wife. And it made me feel icky, but whatever it is, just the way it works, because sure enough, when I called back, they're like, Oh, why didn't you say something? Of course
Speaker 3: (
03:03)
You can come in today.
Speaker 2: (
03:06)
Just, I guess it just
Speaker 3: (
03:09)
Really bothers me that that is the way that the world works. And, and I, and I have never been one to want to, I've never, I've really ushered like the whole schmoozy nature of this business, which is another one of my failings, like in terms of getting, getting what I wanted out of my career.
Speaker 2: (
03:32)
Oh, I mean, I think I totally can relate to that. And I, all I can say is like, I totally relate. And also we're given a chance, thank gosh, now, to start over and to do it in a way that isn't smarmy, but it's also, it comes back to confidence, right? It's a confidence game of like, get in there and swing your Dick and, and own your. And so now I did something, um, like two, two weeks ago when I talked to somebody and I told you, you know, it was through a friend. And, but I did say my ask is that you would, I just to the person I just said, my ask is that you'd read my spec and then it's you. And then, and, and, and if you have any feedback on it, I would ask that you give it to me. And I would also ask that you read our original pilot. And if you have agents and managers in your world, that might like our, our work, please, if you would pass it along and no one was like, Oh my God, you know, she wasn't like, Oh, that's crazy. She was like, okay.
Speaker 3: (
04:35)
Yeah. Right, right, exactly. Because everybody also knows before the conversation ever happens, if somebody is asking to chat with you, everybody already knows that there's going to be an ask in there. That that's how it works.
Speaker 2: (
04:47)
The thing I was going to say is even when, so I was thinking about like, well, is it me? Is it still the common denominator? So I remember when, um, I had just moved to LA and actually someone said, Oh, I told my agent that there was a hot new Latina in town immediately. I felt terrible. Like, I didn't feel like I deserved that label. Right. Whatever the point is, she was trying to be super helpful. And she made an appointment with me, with her agent. And I went in beans and I bombed the meeting. I sabotaged myself, I sabotage the meeting. I downplayed all my, I had been on two TV shows at the time I downplayed the TV show. I ruined it. I ruined the meeting and I wasn't ready. I wasn't, I couldn't take it in. And now we're just starting to be able to be like, yeah, no, we want to do projects. We want to do this. We're worthy. But it took me to be 45. That's what it took.
Speaker 3: (
05:45)
And it takes what it takes. I've been talking about this a lot on, in various rooms, on clubhouse recently. I, you know, it's, it's so fascinating. It's 20, 21 people who are on clubhouse for the most part are on the early adopter side of things. There are these innovators in tech and business and arts, and yet 97% of all rooms are moderated. Mostly by men have mostly men on stage. Many of these stages have a token woman who only gets called upon, like to fact check something, or even in the town hall. You know, it's founded by these two guys and they have these town hall meetings and there's a woman on there. But her job is to run the meeting and ask the question, you know, she's like, has an admin function. I don't know what her job job is, but on this town hall thing, she has an admin type function. And so many people use that. And it's, and let me tell you a few things I've seen recently, I've seen a room called let's talk about menstrual health run by two men. Oh my God.
Speaker 3: (
06:59)
I heard a woman telling me yesterday about a group where, well, I don't know if this was in the title of the room, but when she went in there, she's a black woman. And when she went in there, it was two guys talking about what it's like to grow up. Black, two white guys. Um, Oh my God. I participated in a room called there is no such thing as patriarchy convinced me otherwise where I raised my hand and other women presumably raised their hand and were never called up on stage. And it was mostly just men on the stage. Yeah. So like, no, even in this sphere, we are still, still so woefully behind. And I think that they've, the founders have gotten feedback about the inherent racism and misogyny that exists on this app because of course it would because it exists in the world and how could it, how could this be any different? And it was okay.
Speaker 2: (
08:02)
Graded by two guys, you know? So yeah, exactly. Hopefully we get, Oh, that leads me to, to the story of, um, speaking of tech and innovators of Elizabeth Holmes, the they know. Yes, I love so I'm behind on that story. So, um, Elizabeth Holmes is the, is the, the Stanford dropout, right? For people. Everyone probably knows this but me. But last night I watched a whole special on her, um, who started, uh, Theranose right. Therapy and diagnosis put together a blood testing machine and gonna gonna, um, just revolutionize lab testing while she was a fraud.
Speaker 3: (
08:44)
But, but she was,
Speaker 2: (
08:47)
It was fascinating. I mean, she changed her voice.
Speaker 3: (
08:50)
Do you know this?
Speaker 2: (
08:53)
Oh yeah, totally. Like, this is how she, she started talking. I mean, I'm fascinated by those things because of my therapist and true crime background. I mean, I get the fraud MIS and I it's, again like Pablo macaroni, whose name is in Pablo macaroni. We find out now forgive me Pablo macaroni. But like, it it's that mass delusion thing, but she was a woman who did it. And man, the black turtlenecks, the I'm fascinated by her fascinated. I think that she's amazing.
Speaker 3: (
09:26)
Did you watch the HBO documentary about her or you watched it okay. 20, 20.
Speaker 2: (
09:31)
I just watched the 2020, cause I don't have HBO, but yeah.
Speaker 3: (
09:36)
What are you talking about? You have a whole profile on my HBO, max. I made a profile for you. I've given you my log in information to watch up in a watch. It's a, what is it? I forget what that one is called, but you'll see it under your documentaries. Yeah. It's so good. It's so good. And yeah, she's crazy. And whatever she deserves to be punished, but at the same time, it's like, she's just doing what every other, you know, guy who needed not, I mean, not, not to say that every guy has like in a scammer, but just to say, like she, she got over on the system in a way that so many men before her have done
Speaker 2: (
10:21)
And the journalism, the telling of the story, of course they, you know, it's so skewed. They were like, and she was able to rap Kissinger and she'll and all her board members around her little finger, because with those sparkling penetrating blue eyes, I'm like, you've got, come
Speaker 3: (
10:37)
On. Yeah. So gross.
Speaker 2: (
10:39)
No, she was smart conniving. Um, brilliant. And, um, and had some serious, uh, personality problems going on. And she was, she used her, she, she got over on you stop. It's just because she's exactly blue eyes.
Speaker 3: (
10:56)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That I forget. I feel like that documentary might have like four or five parts to it, so you'll, you'll enjoy it. Yeah. Um, wait, so what got us started talking about confidence
Speaker 2: (
11:11)
About tech, like how she was on the cutting edge of tech and clubhouse and just Silicon Valley in general and how gross and male dominated. And she just walked in and was like, no, I'm here to take over. Yeah.
Speaker 3: (
11:26)
Even there was a room that I went into called, um, men, something like men need to men need to, it wasn't this, but something on the order of like men need to be feminists too. And when I went into the room, it was all men in stage. And I thought, well, that makes sense. So, because they're talking about the role that men need to play, but there were so many in the audience and they weren't talking, they simply weren't talking. So here's my idea for an experiment. I want to figure out a way that I could have a room. And I don't know if I would want to say it in the title of the room or not where the idea is men would be encouraged to come into the room and not speak. So part of why these things perpetuate is because it's just what everybody's used to.
Speaker 3: (
12:34)
Everybody just keeps doing the same thing. So it takes like a radical paradigm shift in order for literally literally ask every man, you know, how many times they've been in a situation where something important is being discussed, whether it's at school, in a professional setting, even in a social setting where it's, um, we're where people are talking about something, you know, important. How many times have you been in that setting? And it's only women talking and the men aren't listening. Yeah. Zero times, zero times. Zero times. 0.0, zero, zero times. Yeah. And so it makes sense that so many men have the experience of like, they can't hear, like they don't hear women when they're talking. It just sounds like noise to them because they have no experience with it because every, a system, every construct that exists is predicated on this thing. Like, don't worry, the men, men will tell you what, you know, like even feminists I'm sure suffer with this thing of wanting, you know, always wanting a, a male voice to be in the mix of this. So it would be, and I don't know how, if it said that in the title, I'm sure no men would come if it didn't say that in the title. But then it was just every time a man raised his hand to get on stage, he didn't get on stage. And then so he left. I don't know how to word it in such a way that men would want to come into the room and, and stay if they're not being called upon.
Speaker 2: (
14:17)
Interesting. I it's such a, maybe someone, maybe if you said like, we need you to come in and, and we need you to listen and just listen. And I don't know if anyone would come and you, and you might, but I think, I think that it, it, it's a good experiment to be explicit in the title and see what happens because, and just be explicit like men, uh, women, a group for men to listen to. I don't know. But yeah, I think just be explicit and see what happens, maybe someone, but then my question is, would it be men who are already
Speaker 3: (
14:52)
Semi-conscious and enlightened that would come and listen and the men who really need to listen? I don't know. But honestly, it's all men, even the conscious ones and the enlightened ones. I swear to God, men who I love all the men who I love in my life, who I think inherently have good values. I mean, that's what I'm saying. It's like, it's not even their fault. It's simply so foreign. This, the whole concept behind it is just so foreign that all of the men that I know who are great men would probably be really frustrated in a situation where they weren't allowed to talk. W not only are they not allowed to talk, because they're used to that, they're used to a group of women talking and then they just don't get involved. But they have zero experience with a group of women are talking and they're listening and they can't, or don't feel comfortable, you know, or maybe they have, if it's, you know, maybe if you grew up in a household of women and you were the only boy.
Speaker 3: (
15:51)
Yeah, you got used to that. So those are probably the exceptions to the rule. But, um, for the most part, men have not had that experience. No. And I think that even if they, like you said, even if they do have the experience, they may be check out on purpose. So they're not really listening. Right. So that's right. That's not the point, right. To check out and go think about something else. Basically what you're saying is we need them to be in prison for a little bit to just before, before solicit, like they do impact victim impact statements, like when they, but it's sad, but it seems like the only way that, you know, sometimes it's like being forced, it's like retraining remind training, like the cult de deprogramming deprogramming is what it is. But I mean, I don't know how to do that without breaking laws really. But, but, uh, and in those victims, by the way, in those victim impact things, nine times out of nine, the guy's like, please, I CA this is, I can't take it anymore. This is torture. It's like, Oh yeah,
Speaker 4: (
17:08)
Let me run this by you. I would like,
Speaker 3: (
17:20)
I would like to try to eradicate or diminish, uh, comparisons in my life. So whether that's, I'm comparing myself to somebody else who has something that I want or who doesn't, and I feel better than them or worse than them, that is completely unhelpful. Even though I know it's humans and we all compare ourselves to each other, but I'm also talking about the kind of comparisons that we all end up and it, it may ultimately be for a good cause. So I don't, this is what I want to run by you. I'm not sure if we need to get rid of this type of comparison, but what I hear a lot of people say, when they're speaking their mind about something is something akin to, I know I haven't suffered like you, but I know what I have to deal with is nothing compared to what you have to deal with. I know it's not, not a great comparison because you had this and I have this, I think it's kind, and it's nice to be deferential and respectful. If you are talking about something that you feel like it's weird that you would be comparing these two things, but does it really serve no anything?
Speaker 2: (
18:38)
Well, no, because with, with, with the, uh, what it is, is, and it's very, it's very meta. So what it is is even in the, in the art of doing that, there is a subtle, uh, comparison. That's obviously less than D a power play. So by saying, I know I haven't suffered like you, what you're really saying is actually I have suffered, but I'm pretending this is how I see it, but I'm pretending I haven't suffered. So it can be really kind. But I think a lot of times it serves to actually comparison, do more of a comparison and separate people from each other and breaks a connection that otherwise might be there. If you just said, this is my experience, and it's the truth for me without having to even bring the other person into it. But that's very challenging. It's a very challenge.
Speaker 3: (
19:31)
Yes. Why, why isn't it just implicit that if I'm just telling you about an experience, I have, it is unique to me because it can't be anything other, just as your experience can only be unique to you. And, and if we're saying this, has this been coming up recently, it's been coming up in terms of yeah. Um, you know, or, or let's see here. Um, I want to tell you about, about this, like a particular topic. I don't think I should talk about on the podcast. Um,
Speaker 2: (
20:11)
It's Arctic. Um, well, I can think about it in terms of when I used to do group therapy, um, both as a facilitator and I've been in group therapy, you get it a lot. So whose trauma is more important and who's the underlying thing is this is what I noticed. The underlying thing is people are basically saying, and I've done it too. And I, when I've done it, I've said my trauma is not being paid attention to. It's very important to me. I feel, again, always comes down to, for me, I feel less. I feel unheard. I feel disconnected and I want to be special. And, and that is the root of most of my problems. But I think, and I think that if people say right, cause if someone says to me, I mean, I know that I've only lost one parent and I know they're genuine. People are trying to be nice, but if people are like, I've only lost one parent, you lost two. Actually it makes me feel worse because I'm like, Oh yeah, I've lost two. I must be. Yeah.
Speaker 3: (
21:15)
Right. Like they're saying, like, I know I'm not up as you. I know I'm not as pitiful as you are. Yeah. And like also the, the circumstance, this is under which people are usually having these conversations is as an, in an attempt to feel connected. Right. Or to like, to make some meaning out of their terrible experiences. So you telling me that you haven't had, yeah. It only serves to make me feel other, which isn't at cross purposes with feeling connected and, and healing. It really is at cross purposes with healing. If you're talking about something like people comparing each other's trauma people and, and it comes up for me when I'm talking about something related to feminism or misogyny. And then I think, well, but I don't have the experience of a person of color. Who's a woman. That's really the person who like, you know, it ends up being like, that's the only person who can really speak to them.
Speaker 2: (
22:13)
That is such a great point. So that leads me to the point. That is so good because that leads me to this reading that I was in that imploded. And I can speak about it because it was the truth. It's what happened. But I can speak from my point of view, which was, I had to take a stand because I was sick of letting the person who I felt was being, um, unnecessarily targeted. I had to be an ally to that person because that's what I committed to do. And so I didn't want to leave it to her, the person, the black woman to have to speak up against something that, that she felt was going on in this reading that was really, really hurtful and, and, um, and not helpful and troubling. And, but I said, why am I leaving it to that person?
Speaker 2: (
22:58)
So I think when we ha when we're trying to leave it to someone, it's two different things. I do think it comes from a good place of saying, uh, it can have, like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna speak for this person. But then I think what true allyship is saying, well, I'm not going to speak for this person, but I'm gonna speak for myself about watching what's going on and not feeling that it's okay. So I wrote a letter to the head of the company and said, this isn't okay. I don't, you know, it's not, it doesn't matter that it's not happening to me, but that's not an experience, but I'm witnessing something that is not okay. And I think that that serves to connect people rather than disconnect and say, well, I'm not going to speak for this person. I mean, I wasn't speaking for her anyway. But what I was doing is, was speaking myself as a witness and an ally to what I was witnessing. And I was like, no, not on my watch. That's where it comes down to, not on my watch. And I have to remember that because I think that right, there's a fine line between speaking for someone and speaking on behalf of them, but for yourself, it's really tricky in feminism or racism or any of the isms. Yeah.
Speaker 3: (
24:11)
So what was the, so they just canceled it because, because
Speaker 2: (
24:15)
It became totally unsafe. It became, and this is, this is, and it comes down to, and this is interesting because it's about theater and it can relate to the theater school and stuff like that. Where when you take on a project, I feel like it's essential that if you are the, and someone brought this up, we had a debriefing and someone brought this up in the debriefing with the company minus the director. Um, it's essential that you do the research on who is helping what project and why. So you can't just direct something. Well, you can, but as a company, you might want to say, like, who are we choosing to direct this piece of this piece of art that deals with racism, sexism, all the isms in the 1950s in the ninth, in 2015, that's when it took place in two different time arrows.
Speaker 2: (
25:05)
And are we choosing someone to, to helm this, that we really feel can do it in a way that is very safe and respectful? Not everybody is meant to direct everything and not every actor is meant to be in every show. And so it was a huge learning for me. Is that like in that yeah, it's like, let's take care of who we're choosing to, to, um, bestow power on, because inherently the director has power, right. And so it's like, is this person equipped internally, um, to, to use that power in a, in a way for, you know, for the good of the play and it takes some digging and you can't just say, yeah, go ahead. Do it. You know, if you're a company, it blew up, it blew up. And I think it was like, people weren't equipped.
Speaker 3: (
25:57)
And was this a mostly white theater company?
Speaker 2: (
26:00)
I think so. I know the heads, I believe the heads are like the artistic director and the is, and then I think the other people are, I think they have a couple of people of color on the board maybe, but mostly it was yes. And the, and the, and the director was, was a white, was a white woman and there was one black, um, castmate. And she, and that was, it was, it was a mess. It was a mess. It was in the scope of the project got too big and it just became, it was like one of these things that blew up in a week. It was crazy. It was crazy.
Speaker 3: (
26:36)
So that's an interesting thing about that. You had a debrief and the director wasn't there, and now that sounds appropriate because sounds like the director was the problem. And, but it was, do you know if there was a plan for the director to be debriefed about what they did?
Speaker 2: (
26:52)
Yeah. I think someone asked and they said yes, that we're talking with her where, because I believe that she's also an artistic associate of the company. I don't think she's a member, but I, I'm not sure. So I know that they said they were going to, um, so hopefully that took place because if not, nobody knows what's going on and they just think, Oh, what happened? And I guess, onto the next, you know, you know, if they don't do
Speaker 3: (
27:17)
Right, right, right. That's right. It just keeps prepaying if you don't debrief. And in some ways it's not really related to comparison, except for, I feel like what needs to be done with comparison is more integration and less separation. But, um, if you don't debrief, it just becomes everybody apologizing for a bad thing. And then just brushing it under the rug and moving on. That's like the people whose approach to dealing with conflict in life is just to apologize. And it ends there. And I feel like people really tell themselves that they did such a great job if they were just able to say, I'm sorry, and that is a part, but it's just step one. And then the next thing is like, let's unpack what happened here. Why did you have this urge? What, you know, because these systems like I'm describing the system that we're in most men have never had this experience of listening to women.
Speaker 3: (
28:14)
There, we have a tendency to talk about them in these very theoretical ways. And what we need a lot more of is just, this is how we have to do it now. Like, you know what I'm saying? It needs this. It's like why we need reparations, because you're never going to get past all of this generational trauma, unless you re start by apologizing, which I think, I think that's the only thing that's been done so far as apologizing for slavery. Then you work, then you talk about how you're going to repay for all of this lost labor, you know, income and, and, and, and then setting up new systems whereby there's more equity anyway. So yeah, that sounds like it was the best that that thing got canceled.
Speaker 2: (
29:13)
Yeah. Some projects just, you know, when I said I need to be canceled. And I did say to the artistic director, I said, listen, part of, um, uh, the trusting and being inclusive and is also knowing when to say, no, this isn't working. Like you call it at certain points. You call the project and you debrief about the emotional trauma that happens because of the project, but you still call the, you call it, you just say, that's it. So I said, sometimes being the most loving, responsible thing to do is say, no, we're not moving forward. Yeah. And that's just how I feel with certain things, because it's too, it's too much, you've gone too far. There's too much trauma. And so that's what happened. And you know, it's too, it's too bad, but it's also part of part of life. And we're knowing
Speaker 5: (
30:07)
That's right. And it, and experience is still totally valid because if somebody learns something in the experience, then in a way, that's the job of art. Anyway, it's still today. The process we have Erica Yancey, the lovely Erica Yancey, who is a documentary and independent film producer. Yeah. She's a producer. She was an actor. She's still, she says she sometimes still acts here and there, but she's primarily a documentary producer and she loves it. She loves telling stories that way. And it was interesting to hear about it. It was. And also she, um, is an advocate for, um, embrace, uh, embracing outdoors and exercise for people who don't traditionally get associated with doing those behaviors, like people of color and people with different body shapes. And so you'll have to check her out on her Instagram, which I think we say it at the end of the episode,
Speaker 2: (
31:06)
She's a tr I just had to do a cheesy joke. She's a trailblazer in more ways. Yeah.
Speaker 5: (
31:11)
Oh yeah. I love it. I love it. Please enjoy our interview with Erica UNC. So congratulations. You survived theater school. And for that you deserve a medal as we all do.
Speaker 6: (
31:33)
I've been reflecting on my time at theater school. And it's interesting. Cause I was listening to some of your past episodes and I was like, I don't know that I had that hard of a time at theater school, but then I was like, Oh wait. But all of the things I took up at theater school that were like negative and bad that followed me out. Um, yeah. So yeah.
Speaker 5: (
31:59)
What does that mean that you, at the time that you were experiencing it, you didn't find it to be negative and so that, which has been kind of your story about it.
Speaker 6: (
32:10)
And so, I mean, there's a couple of things when I think back about theater school that, yeah. I, first of all, I think I was, I don't think I know. I was like, Oh, like not very nice. Um, I was doing well, like all the teachers loved me and I thought I was doing, I was such a hot shot. Like by third and fourth year, I was pretty like, not even in second year cause I was doing well, I don't know part of the problem, like part of the competition and part of the, um, like we were like me and another person who I was friends with at the time would sit in class when cut system was still happening. And we would be like, this is great for your podcast years. But we would be like,
Speaker 5: (
32:56)
Oh, she's doing, doing scissors with her fingers.
Speaker 6: (
32:59)
Cause fingers showing like, Oh, this person's getting cut. And like, that's folded at theater school. That was not something that I was like before then. And then the other thing that sort of came up for me was when it got time for exit year, her exit classes and you know, everybody was printing out their resumes and putting their weight on their resumes. I became very fixated on, um, my weight and I lost a bunch of weight my senior year. And that was actually the beginning of my eating disorder, which I add, um, could be helping people would come up. I had teachers come up to me and be like, you know, it's so great. Um, and I wasn't getting tapped in good roles before I lost weight. And then I got cast in better roles after I lost weight. And I was like, well, this is, this just means, you know, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And they would be like, um, I had one teacher say, I'm so glad you lost weight because you were too heavy for your age. And I was like, who said that to a 19 year old? What is going on with you? Yeah, it was awful. And so I was like, okay, this is a, this is a good time. This is the thing I should be doing. And, and that, that kind of negative body image. And, um, I didn't have a super negative body image until theater school. And so, and then shortly after, so yeah.
Speaker 5: (
34:28)
So how did you deal with that after you left? Um, I mean, you're, you're calling it an eating disorder, so I'm, I'm guessing that means you're, you've been in treatment for it at least at some point.
Speaker 6: (
34:39)
Yes. I've been in, I was in therapy for a long time because I didn't really realize what was happening until I moved to LA and then somebody was like an eating disorder. Cause I didn't, I'm not, and I'm a, I was a binge eater and a compulsive over exerciser. I used to exercise a lot, uh, fourth year of school. And um, and even when I moved out to LA and was like this corner and I was like, no, I know. And it probably took me a good five years to finally be like, Oh, okay. So that's what this is. And um, really dismantling it is a years long. I can still dismantling it. Um, how many years out of theater school? And I'm still like, okay, this is not a real thing. Like I don't have to count calories every day. I don't have to do this every day. I'm not a bad person if I have a piece of cake, but that is the kind of thing that kind of ate away at me. And I was getting positive reinforcement at school. So it didn't seem like a bad thing at the time. It seems really positive
Speaker 5: (
35:45)
By the way. So many eating disorders start with that, a person losing weight for whatever reason. And then everybody, I mean, like just wrapping their arms around them practically and, and just endless compliments. I, it took me a long time before I realized that it's not good to ever comment on somebody's weight loss or awake. Like it's just, it's none of your business. And so shut the up about it.
Speaker 6: (
36:12)
Yeah. Cause you have no idea what's going on with that person. You know? Um, I gained weight recently, but it's recovery weight, you know, like if somebody were to say to me, Oh, you're putting on some pounds, but I'm, I'm healthy to like, you know, so it's, that's a good point, you know, like it's, you just never know what someone's going through and you really can't ever comment. It's just, it's literally none of anyone else's business.
Speaker 7: (
36:40)
Yeah. And also the idea of putting our weights on our resume. I remember, I remember, um, leaving, obviously leaving the acting world and getting back into it and a casting director saying, don't put that on that's nobody's stop. No one does that anymore. Stop. That's crazy. And I was like, what? I just thought people did. And no, of course I never told the truth about it. It wasn't like I was putting the right one on anyway,
Speaker 5: (
37:10)
Erica to have, I don't know if you've ever heard about this, but one of the things that we've learned in doing this podcast is that, um, at Carnegie Mellon and other conservatories, there was weigh ins, there were wins. No.
Speaker 6: (
37:28)
So I've been thinking a lot about like conservatory education in general. And part of the reason why I was like trying to think back about theater school. And I was like, it wasn't that hard, but I think it was part of the problem. Um, but also I went to a film school for, uh, grad school that was a conservatory and that was insane. And I think the problem is conservatory. They feel like they have this license to pretty much say whatever they want to you to try to get the best work out of you. Um, and, and like for some reason, abusive and be in being able to withstand abuse is some like some badge of honor. And it's, it's completely unnecessary. You know, there are incredible actors and creators who weren't abused during their education. And, and um, I think it's probably part of the conservatory world. When you say that that happens at Carnegie Mellon and other schools, like I think that kind of cutthroat I hardness happens.
Speaker 5: (
38:28)
That's a good point when, when anything is niche or, you know, small in some way it does, it does seem to engender type of an environment that leads to abuse
Speaker 7: (
38:39)
Calls are the same way that we talk a lot about Colts on this podcast, but it's true. It's like, it's kind of like a cult, a conservatory. And, and I, I, you know, I just, I feel so sad that we, that that existed when we were so young, but clearly you survived and you're thriving. So I'm, I'm grateful for that. But man, that is I, did you feel competition like a lot of competition in theater school where you really,
Speaker 6: (
39:09)
I don't remember second year. I don't know if somebody actually, I think somebody actually said this to me and they were like, well, you're not going to get cut because you know, my, my year, um, they want a hundred of us in first year, which is too many. And then they cut us in half, which is so awful. And then they cut us in half, again after second year. And so I'm like, that's just horrible. But people will be like, well, you'll be around because the casting pool means black people. And I was like, okay. So I remember having like a horrible, like trying to really prove myself, um, outside and being like, I'm a good actress. It's not just because I'm black that they're keeping me here. Um, that was, yeah. So I mean that kind of competition. Yes. I felt competition in like the casting, the casting, although I felt like by third year I wasn't getting what I really wanted anyway. And I was sort of being relegated to like roles. Um, I felt what I felt were poop roles. Um, but the, the competition was more along the lines of who could get the best comments from who got a good job in class that day. You know, you did, you did this really well. And I worked really hard to get those compliments and those pats on the back because I am a people pleaser. And so I will do whatever you want me to do to make sure that I'm staying in your good graces.
Speaker 5: (
40:47)
I'm interested in this idea that you you're saying about you were part of the problem or you, you were mean, or, I mean, that, that thing about talking about getting cutting people while you're in class does sound pretty mean, but did it, I was going to ask if that came from this feeling of competition, if it felt like you needed to kill or be killed
Speaker 6: (
41:07)
Absolutely. 100%. That was about me for calls about my own insecurities, but it was about me needing to stay on top and needing to have a gauge that I measured myself against like, Oh, that person's doing is not better than me. I'm definitely the best person in this class. I'm definitely one of the two, like we are near the good, we are the good class or we are the good, um, group of, of people. And yeah, it was all about the competition, but I'm, I'm a little bit competitive anyway, not to the point where I start, I mean, definitely in theater school, I was like I said, like not kind, um, most of the time, well, you know, when it came to things like competing and, and, and being better than somebody, and I feel like I'm not articulating this very well. Um, I, I really feel like, um, yeah, like the, the environment sort of bred that sort of cutthroat attitude to, um, be the best and all others. Right. And to make sure that other people knew where they stood in, um, yeah. In their play, in, in the place in the class.
Speaker 3: (
42:31)
But to be honest, you guys did have a really good class. Like, you know, I I'm just sitting here thinking, okay, well, but, but, but, um, Dave and John, I mean, you, you had some like superstar, I guess I must have felt competition. I, it's not possible to not, but I, Steven yet don't really register it in that way. Um, it could be because I didn't possess certain attributes that other people did. So I like, wasn't like, I wasn't even in the race for, for a, for a certain type of role. Um, but I, I, it does seem like it's possible that the more talented your classes, the more, I mean, cause I, I, we haven't talked and talked to anybody yet about specifically competition among the men with Dave because, you know, Dave got like really, really, really great roles. I imagine people felt a certain type of way about that. You know,
Speaker 6: (
43:39)
Dane was actually in the class, but Dave and John were in the class behind me, my class, I was in the class behind you with Jen joined at some point. And the only person from our class that's like really broken out, got cut. And that was just the Cora
Speaker 3: (
44:06)
First look, deal with AMC, by the way, or something, pick up a cut. I thought he stayed. Okay. Yeah. That's the other thing is just the Erica, you were so freaking talented that the other thing is, I'm not sure what you were feeling was, was not, does that make sense?
Speaker 7: (
44:32)
Like I think people who were really good, like you, I remember seeing you in one flea spare, right. And you were, you were, you were the lead and once the spare and I was like, you, you were so talented. So I think it's interesting. Cause when we talk about this stuff, I think it's real that people who are talented, like, and beads brought this up a little bit, like people aren't going to be jealous. And so I think it feeds itself and then you have to kind of maintain this. I'm the best kind of thing, because someone wants to knock you off your it's just like you said, Erica, it's the conservatory itself feeds on that. It's a small cult. Right. So it that's exactly how cults operate. So I just want to point out that the, that the two things that you were very, very, very talented and that the cult feeds on that of sort of who's the best. Now who's the best now who's the best now, you know? So, but I don't want to take away the fact that you could act your butt off. You know what I mean? Like I just don't want to take away from that.
Speaker 6: (
45:30)
You, I really appreciate that. Um, and I think that there's some validity to that, right? Like you, um, we all fought the fight to stay at the top. Why somebody can't do better than you in anything. Somebody can't get a better role than you getting. Once we spare, like, I felt the energy from people after getting cast in that, um, which is so weird, you know, when you look back, you're like, this is a college, like everybody chill out. This is not going to be what makes or breaks anyone, but it's hard to recognize that. And it's hard to see that. And there's definitely a, an element of fighting to stay on top. Um, yeah. And then, you know, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 7: (
46:18)
No, I was just going to say, but I mean actually you say what you were going to say first,
Speaker 6: (
46:24)
I haven't switched direction 100%. So you should say what you were going to say.
Speaker 7: (
46:29)
Yeah, mine, mine is a little bit of that too, just to say that, um, I, I didn't get to see you in that much stuff, but I do remember you as being talented. So, but you left theater school, you did acting, and now you're a producer. So at some point you made an important career shift and I was just wondering what, what was entailed in that?
Speaker 6: (
46:52)
It was, you know, it was, I was, um, asking here in Los Angeles that I had a manager. I was booking work, not a lot, not as much as I did in Chicago, but I still didn't want to move back. And, um, I started seeing a therapist for my eating disorder and I had, this is awful. This is not the God it's never happened at theater school. I had been a back three times for a commercial, for a national commercial. And they cast me and I showed up for the, um, fitting and I, and I, them, I was a size eight, but a curvy size eight and the clothes they had were junior size, eight or seven eight, and they didn't fit. And I lost the job. I got fired. They pulled me because I had been to three callbacks and they passed me and I didn't fit the clothes or whatever.
Speaker 6: (
47:48)
And I was like, Oh my God, it's the first time that's ever happened to me. And then, um, they went and talked to my manager and was like, well, no, you got to lose, you have your, at the wounds. Um, you have to lose 20 or gain 50. And I was like, okay. And I saw my therapist shortly after that. And she was like, listen, you can be an actress or you can recover from your eating disorder. And I was like, okay, well, I was in GuideWell recover. And I luckily wasn't an in class out here at the time that was making us do our own short films. Um, and I really enjoyed it. And so I applied to go back to school. Um, I went to a con uh, film conservatory here called AFI American film Institute and, um, studied producing there. And that's how that happened.
Speaker 5: (
48:39)
Okay. That's I mean, yeah, that, that really hit me in the middle of my soul soul. You can be in it, you can be an actress or you can recover from your eating disorder, just out of curiosity. I, when you said the thing about the clothes, the first thought that came to my mind was, and I bet this commercial wasn't, it didn't even matter, like whatever it was for.
Speaker 6: (
49:02)
No, I don't even remember what it was for. It was like direct TV or it was something like, not what I could literally have just gotten me a size 10 pants. Yeah.
Speaker 5: (
49:12)
And just go to target, just go to target and get some different pants. Right.
Speaker 6: (
49:19)
It was mortifying. It was humiliating. And then on top of that, it was just infuriating because I did study, you know, um, classical theater, sorry, I'm going to bark one more time. That's enough. I did study classical theater. Sorry. Um, and then I'm being told that I am not worthy because I am not the right size. Yeah. So I was like, peace out. I will make things for myself. I mean, I would be lying. It's like me deciding to become a producer race. Wasn't also a large part of that. Like I wanted to see more representation and it's funny now because I'm not doing anything that would yield that I produce documentaries, but, um, yeah, I, I just found a way to still be creative and still be involved in the entertainment industry, which I love, um, by creating content instead of sort of being the piece that moves around. Yeah.
Speaker 5: (
50:25)
But did you want to an actress when you were a child?
Speaker 6: (
50:30)
I can't remember a time when I wasn't performing and wasn't acting, I used to do, um, Annie, my sister and I used to perform Annie for my grandparents and for my parents, we'd sing all the songs. We would do it all the time. Like I was always performing. I did, um, before, before theater school, I would, was in tons of community theater in Indiana. Um, and I knew that I wanted, I was like, this is what I want to do. I want to be an actress. And then the end, the business is just not as pure as my desire was. Um, and I still, I asked occasionally Rick Murphy and Rob Adler have a class here in LA. I took that class for several weeks. It was a lot of fun. I only stopped because I got too busy. Um, and then COVID happened. Um, but I still love to perform, I still love acting. I love talking to you guys right now, um, which is like kind of performing, but, um, there was just something for my own personal, um, health and my own mental health that I had to take a step back for.
Speaker 5: (
51:40)
Definitely by the way, I just wrote down that quote, the business wasn't as pure as my desire. Wow. That's [inaudible] or you can recover. Yeah. And that makes me think you're a writer too.
Speaker 6: (
51:59)
I write, I write, I haven't written in a long time, but I am a writer and of course writing is a large part of producing. Um, but, um, I used to, I used to write a lot about race and politics because I worked for a political, um, production company when I first got out of school, out of grad school. And, um, yeah. Right. Well,
Speaker 5: (
52:23)
I don't think I knew that writing was a big part of producing. How, how is that?
Speaker 6: (
52:28)
Well, it sort of depends. Okay. So it depends on what you're talking about as a producer. So for me as a direct, a documentary producer, finding story, pulling story together, um, maybe, um, even writing voiceover, you're all, you're sort of composing the story when you're producing like a feature narrative, like narrative film, it's different because you're just producers do like so many different things that it really depends on what kind of producer you are. So I'm like a, I'm a story producer. I'm a creative producer. Um, uh, more so than like a logistical producer, like figuring out where this goes and that goes, although I do that too, like it's one of those catch all term producers, like sort of a catch all term for a lot of things. Right.
Speaker 5: (
53:14)
And how did you, uh, get involved? I mean, sounds like you exclusively do documentaries now, how did that happen?
Speaker 6: (
53:21)
So I was a, um, uh, after I got out of grad school, I was an assistant. I was a really bad assistant for a celebrity, um, a guy who was an actor and turned director, which I was horrible. Um, but he was also pretty horrible. Um, he, uh, we, we had all of these projects that were just like spring break or another procedural and just like so boring. And I was like, I want to do things that are like making a difference that matter, that are changing minds about things. So I started working, I interned as a paid intern at this company called brave new films, which did the Walmart movie and outfoxed and Iraq for sale. And I worked, I was there for three years and then I was just like, I love this. I don't ever want to do anything else. I've documentaries where I want to be. I want to talk about real stories and real people and learn things as I work. So that's how I got there.
Speaker 7: (
54:25)
No, that is interesting. And I, I, I just, I think it's, again, we talk a lot about how at the theater school, what would have maybe been helpful is if someone said, no, you were, you were appearing to thrive at the theater school. So this is, but we do talk about saying, like, to kids, Hey, have you ever thought about producing or writing or, or, or directing? I mean like why? Cause you clearly had that in you too. And it's like, let's, let's foster that. So it just would have been amazing. Maybe if they had said, Oh my God, you have your, your together in terms of this and this and this Erica, let's also turn you onto a producing situation instead of like, you know, pitfalls of just being, trying to be a, uh, a skinny actor, you know, it's like, Oh, but I'm glad you found it. I'm glad you found it. When you, when you did, how did you end up at AFI? Like, how did you say, okay, I'm going back to school.
Speaker 6: (
55:22)
I felt I ended up, I ended up at ASI very similarly to how I ended up at DePaul. Um, I was like, what's the best school in my area for me to go to. Hmm. And then I just, I on a whim, like I applied and got it and got in, um, which is how I applied for DePaul. I was like, I want to go to acting school. And my parents were like, you can only go three hours away from us. And we live in Indianapolis. Um, so I applied early decisions to DePaul and, um, got in, even though my guidance counselor told me I was not going to get in that it was,
Speaker 7: (
55:59)
Oh, that's great. That's great guy.
Speaker 6: (
56:03)
And I got in and was like never talking to you again.
Speaker 7: (
56:06)
Yes. Yeah. And did you know, by the way we had John Jenkins on, um, I had never heard this before. He said that when he was there and a part of the, um, audition to get in, uh,
Speaker 5: (
56:24)
Side of things that they would have like 900 applicants,
Speaker 6: (
56:30)
Are you serious?
Speaker 5: (
56:32)
I'm serious. So if, if your class was narrowed down to 100 and then to 50 and to 25, which by the way, John Bridges told us that there was no number was no quota. It's just a big coincidence. But every single person says they went by half the first year and white half the second year. So that everybody's graduating class was one quarter of what they started with
Speaker 6: (
56:58)
That is not a coincidence. And it's nice that you think it was,
Speaker 5: (
57:03)
Do you remember your audition to get into the theater school?
Speaker 6: (
57:07)
I do. I do. I remember. Um, Oh my gosh. So David ad Kali was one of the people remind me to come back to David was one of the people in the room. I don't remember who else was there, maybe Melissa Meltzer. And then, um, I did, I'm so embarrassed. I did a monologue from the wool gatherer, which they must've seen a million times, but the one where the birds are dying and there's blood like dramatic one. Um, and then there's, we did like an improv game where we were like washing your face and like doing all that. And I ha and I, and they were like, when we get to you sing a song and I sang, there are worst things I could do from,
Speaker 5: (
57:53)
Oh, I love this. I love this so much. I love everything about that. It's a hard song to sing. Oh my God. It was really, really feel like a Rizzo. Did you identify with the, with the Rizzo character?
Speaker 6: (
58:10)
I totally did. I was so cool. And this was in high school? Well, like it was so cool and like such a bad girl misunderstood. I'd like, that has nothing to do with the time it did. And so that's what I say. And somehow I got it.
Speaker 5: (
58:34)
So you said to remind you back to David.
Speaker 6: (
58:37)
Yeah. So David was a really, I know David is a divisive character. He was a really important part of my time at theater school. He was my first year teacher. He was, um, I found his outbursts, uh, funny where other people found them. Very scary. There were some things that he did in class that I can't believe he did in class. Um, I don't know if you're talking to like Paul Holmquist or anybody, but, um, but we'd like to, so there is, he tells the story better than I do, but, um, there's this guy in our class who was David, was trying to tell him who he was through some improv game and he wasn't picking it up and he picks up an actual chair. I think he's like, I've got a chair on a way insane. Like it was, he was, and then he would walk around with a stick in his hand and like hit the wall. And I wouldn't find that I was thought it was funny. Like, but of course that's terrifying. You can't do that to people. I was thinking about him yesterday. And I was like, at the time I was like, thinking that he must've been in his like 60, but definitely like in his forties. Right.
Speaker 6: (
59:56)
Um, I was just like, uh, he's still funny. But he was, you know, he was very supportive of me and he was very, I used to work for him. I worked in his office. I took, um, I took Zach Holmes job actually that helm had that job before me. And I took it and we were very, um, we were, you know, we got along really well, but I know he was a big problem for a lot of people at theater school. And I think I just moved my way into escaping that, you know,
Speaker 7: (
01:00:26)
The same, I have the same numbers, same exact thing where like I know he was, I know he was, he did rotten things, but I was such, for some reason, like, I feel the same. Like I'm a people pleaser and I'm, I did whatever he said, you know, to get on his good side. And then he sort of fell in love with me. And then that was it. But like, he, people did horrible things to students and just because they were nice to me, doesn't make it. Okay. Right. It's like, it's like,
Speaker 3: (
01:00:57)
So, so Erica, one of the, I've never, we've never asked this question of anybody before, but one of the things that boss and I talk about all the time is how we just didn't know ourselves at all. And in fact, that pattern continued long after we graduated. Um, I think maybe dealing with something like an eating disorder does force a person to get to know themselves better because it's literally a matter of life and death. But did you feel, what was your experience of that while you were at the theater school? Did you felt feel you knew who you were
Speaker 6: (
01:01:30)
Not even a little bit, not even a little bit. Um, I was very fixated on trying to be what other people wanted me to be. Um, to a, I think the first time when I stood up for myself at theater school was, and can we use people's names? Always David I'll call his name was, um, when casting came around fourth year, um, Susan Lee had decided that I was like her star and really wanted to cast me as tiger Lily, the hip hop, dancing, titer, Lily and Peter pan. And I couldn't dance. Like I couldn't dance. And she was like, listen, I really want to cast you with Tyra Lily. I auditioned for Wendy and she wouldn't even consider Wendy. And she was like, listen, I really want to catch you with Lily. But, um, you're going to have to take extra dance classes. Okay. But we'll, you could talk somebody who already can dance. Like, why aren't you making me do it? And we know why she wanted me to, I said, a day still can't dance. And, um, I remember, you know, they have that big meeting where they're like, decide who's going to be in what play
Speaker 5: (
01:02:43)
Or whatever.
Speaker 6: (
01:02:46)
And I remember I was like, this is not me. I can't do this. This is not a character I can even pretend to be. And I called David and I was like, Hey Susan, when he wants to cast me as pirate Lily, and I don't want to do it, I'm not, I can't do it. And it causes this whole kerfuffle, the casting meeting me and was like, what's going on? David said, you don't want to be tired. Really? And I was like, I don't. And that was the first time I actually ever stood up for myself probably as an adult. Um, so it was at theater school, but I, you know, just the fact that I got, I got bullied into it that far along was just like, just me not knowing who I was and me not having feet on the ground. And, um, me not sort of recognizing what was good for me
Speaker 5: (
01:03:35)
And her being in her and Susan Lee being racist. I mean, that's awesome. I will say it out loud. I mean,
Speaker 6: (
01:03:48)
Yes.
Speaker 5: (
01:03:51)
I put my hand to my forehead, my phone, You know, I, I, I guess I didn't have her as a teacher. It's only been in this podcast. I feel like everybody's been making this person up. I can't picture who Susan Lee is. Blonde that guy. No, no, but Theresa's married to Nick, Nick, Nick, and I had Nick as my teacher. So I think, I didn't know either of those people in that car. Go ahead. No, I, we, our class, um, for whatever reason, we had a different teacher. We had Ruth route birth. So we didn't have,
Speaker 6: (
01:04:52)
Oh you, because Susan was a tree nut. She is somebody who really hyped up like favorites and, um, competition and made things really. If she didn't like you, you knew she didn't like you. Right.
Speaker 5: (
01:05:08)
And I believe that she called Stephanie White was in my class. So Gina, it's interesting that you didn't have her, but anyway, she, she wanted
Speaker 7: (
01:05:18)
To say African-American ones and she couldn't say it. She couldn't figure out, she got tripped up on her words. And I, instead of African-American then she went to Negro and then she said, I swear. She said, and I looked at her and said that. She said, I'm sorry. And she look, I'm not saying all I'm saying is that's what happened? That's what I'm saying. Oh, you can say it. That's what happened. And that's what we're contending with. So when I, when I hear you say it was me, me, me, me, I, I do think being bullied takes, there has to be a bully. Do you know what I mean? Like for you to feel bullied. So I'm just, I want to make it clear that you were a child, almost basically a child, right? Cause you were what? 19, 19 or 20. So yeah. Anyway, I just, we gotta, you gotta make sure we're doing that. So this is making me think of something. Uh, um, Jen Kober told us that she was told that her year was the first year they let in fat girls. And that there was that Betsy had to basically campaign for this, um, that they had just, I mean, whether it was spoken or unspoken, they had never admitted a woman who would be considered fat. And now I'm thinking that in a F were there any other women of color in your class, Erica?
Speaker 6: (
01:06:55)
Yes. There was one she got caught. Her name was Yvette Robinson. Um, I think she was the only other one. And I remember at theater school, everybody would always call me like the name of the black girl who was in the, like in classes ahead of me. And they would be like namby. And I'm like, no, my name is Erica, things like that. Um, there were two of us and there were, there was two, there were men. I think I was the only one that didn't get caught after second year. Um, there was a man, I forgot his name. I forgot his name. Um, and then the year behind me, there were no honey and Larry and Kevin. And that might be it.
Speaker 7: (
01:07:44)
Yeah. What I'm, what I was getting at is I feel like it became a thing like, well, we can only have one per you know, per year or per right. Because that's, that was my recollection. Yeah.
Speaker 6: (
01:07:56)
That's how it ended up. I was only, I was the only, by the time I graduated, I was the only black woman, um, in the casting. Well, no, I came in after, but so, and I think honey was the only black woman in her year. And um,
Speaker 7: (
01:08:12)
I Asia Larry's, she wasn't
Speaker 6: (
01:08:16)
Humming a year, but she got caught.
Speaker 7: (
01:08:18)
Oh God, it's just so gross. I just can't even, it's just so it, yeah, I would, but I remember, I want to bring up one thing because you were, and I want to get your experience. So most people we've talked to about the showcase had a buffer of experience. Now you, if I recall were like a superstar going to every meeting with every, this is what I made up. So I I'm willing to be totally wrong about this, but in my head, you like slate it, like you were going to universal and Warner brothers, is that, did I make that up or is that accurate?
Speaker 6: (
01:08:51)
That's no, that's accurate. I had three meetings at an agency meeting and two studio meetings, which, you know, it's great if I was going to move to LA like the next week, but I wasn't. And the thing that, that brought up was that peop you know, I had a really good friend who you weren't so great friends after that. Um, because she didn't, she got like one meeting or didn't get any meetings. And she was very like the competition and the, our conflict, our competitiveness turned on each other, or mine didn't, I felt really bad that she didn't get any meat or her parents were really upset with me. Cause they were like, you got all this great stuff in Iowa and you're sad because your friend didn't get anything. And I was like, I don't know, that's what theater teaches us that. Um, so, but yeah, I, I, my showcase experience was really positive.
Speaker 6: (
01:09:40)
Um, I didn't move to LA, so it was kind of for not, um, I wish that we had also, I know that they're now they now go to New York also. I wish we'd gone to New York. Cause I feel like that would have actually been really beneficial for our class in general. Um, because we are at a theater school and, um, but yeah. Wow. And then I, and then I came back and uh, got it. I had a couple of agents and I know that there's been a lot of conversation about the audition teacher who, um, I had, again, I had great experience with, I was actually friends with her she's since passed. So I won't say her name, but, um, I know that she was, I know that she also had favorites and would call people in based on whether or not she likes them to be CA and I got past my first two things because of her. Um, but I know that there are people who she just didn't call in because she wasn't friends with them. She didn't like them. And that is, that's not. Okay.
Speaker 7: (
01:10:49)
So, Erica, um, it's, you just mentioned your parents and it sounds like they were supportive of you. Do you have any other artists in your family? Did you come from theater people?
Speaker 6: (
01:11:02)
Um, not really. My dad is a pediatrician. He's a doctor. My mom was a teacher. She, uh, desktop theater, but you know, we would do church plays. Um, nobody else is, uh, my cousin is an opera singer in Germany. Um, but artsy family, um, more science-based, although we are all in entertainment or art in the public eye. And my sister is, uh, a reporter for a network news station in DC and my brother until COVID was a DJ. Um, well he, he, he was a DJ for like, uh, some pretty big places in new Orleans and in South beach in Miami, um, and DJ for some big like athletes and things like that, but doesn't want to do it and he's getting older. Doesn't want to do it anymore and guess what he wants to do now, he wants to be an actor. He called me all the time asking me like, Hey, do you know what's? What is, do you know who you are? The Meisner technique.
Speaker 6: (
01:12:12)
Yes I have. And be like, how do you do this? How do you do this? Very funny. And it's, it's funny. Cause I'm like I stopped asking because the industry is not great. But like I do remember this period that he's in and being in theater school and learning all these new things and feeling really confident about it being really interested in, then it changes how you watch television in terms of how you watch movies. And I know where he is. I know what place he's in, but at the same time I want to be like, don't do it.
Speaker 3: (
01:12:45)
It's tough. It's a, it's a tough, yeah, it's I've everybody always says like, if you can do something else, you know, you, you really should. And so that's so great that the thing that you found to do is fulfilling. I, it sounds like it's not really much in the way of performing, but that it's fulfilling in terms of storytelling.
Speaker 6: (
01:13:05)
It's totally fulfilling in terms of storytelling. Um, I, I love it. I feel like I'm good at it. Um, and I, and I'm freelance. So I get to work on three or four things every year, you know, nothing is ever the same, so are two or three things every other year. So nothing's ever the same and, and I enjoy it and the people I've met have been really great. Um, and yeah, honestly I think that part of what makes me good at my job is learning how to work with other people, learning the, the, the, um, idea of ensemble and collaboration. I find that people who in this industry who don't work well with others or who do work well with others have acting backgrounds because they're used to collaborating and building a whole lot of parts and things like that. Whereas other people sort of get sort of like tunnel vision and don't know how to collaborate and work with an ensemble.
Speaker 3: (
01:14:02)
I have a question besides, um, obviously we talked a little bit about one fleet spare. Um, what were your other roles at the theater school that you, that you loved? Like
Speaker 7: (
01:14:12)
What, what brought you joy there?
Speaker 6: (
01:14:15)
My favorite, so I did it so second year you have to do a scene, right? Like, uh, um, my, I did a scene from born yesterday with Palm Holmquist Paul. Holmquist where I played the duty, um, Davis. Yeah. Or holidays Sunday, so much fun. And I wore flip and Paul was like this big guy and I was, and Don OCO directed it. I loved Don so much. And, um, um, yeah, it was really, that was a great, like a scene was great. The other really fun thing we did was this director, this guest director did a workshop fourth year. The role I ended up with when I backed out of tire really. Um, and I forget what the name of the player was, but it was Andrew [inaudible] and me, and I forget who everybody else was, but it was just like an exercise in like all the things we did first year.
Speaker 6: (
01:15:19)
Right. So we're like space work on a, on a, on a subway and like, like little scenes that we were doing and making sounds. And it was just so much fun. Like I've, I haven't had that much fun performing to that point. It was a, it was like a game every night. Um, and then I think those were the most fun things. And then, you know, obviously once we spare with a lot of fun to do with small casts and really good people, but, um, yeah, those are, those are my favorites. Those are my highlights.
Speaker 7: (
01:15:55)
The time of COVID. Are you able to work it, do D does the documentary world go forward?
Speaker 6: (
01:16:02)
It does. Um, I have, I didn't have it. I didn't have a job from April to June, which was kind of scary, but, um, uh, we're, I'm working from home. Um, we do interviews. We can do them remotely, or we do them in a, you know, we're set up in such a way where we have all of these zones and people can be here and everybody has to get tested and you have masks and, um, it's very secure and safe, um, for documentary anyway, larger productions have a whole other behemoths to work with, but, um, documentary production is, is pretty easy because once you shoot, you're just in post and you're just, you know, working from home the whole time. So it's, it's a lot, it's, it's easy to do. As long as there are projects being made, which there are,
Speaker 7: (
01:16:46)
Do you have like, uh, right now a passion project that you want to get made that you haven't made? Do you have a dream of a documentary that you're doing?
Speaker 6: (
01:16:56)
I listened to this podcast called criminal, and I shouldn't be telling this because maybe somebody else will want to, um, go out and steal my idea, but they did a story on this woman called Sandy who used to run numbers. Um, yeah, so he was the first, like, she was the first black woman who had her own bank and like be their number running. And like, I want to do a documentary about her. I think she sounds incredible. It was in her book, her book and her daughter wrote it, but I want to start pitching this, um, at places to try to get it done either. That would be really cool. Um,
Speaker 5: (
01:17:32)
So Erica, we have a character based on her and our pilot. We'll send it to, you know, yeah. She, she's a main character in our pilot, which is which people are reading. So it's yeah, yeah. She's, I will send it to you. Amazing. She's this she's the grandmother age, but, and she was reading her numbers business in new Orleans and some terrible things happened and she had to leave town and, and she's, uh, she's responsible for her grandson. And so they moved to Sacramento and she is re upping her business there and having to figure out like how it works differently there than what she's used to anyway. It's yeah. That's so funny that you bring that up. She's going to say Fannie. I know she's going to say this amazing. That's so cool. So you're going to, okay. So you're going to get that made. That's amazing. I know you will.
Speaker 6: (
01:18:38)
I'm working on it. Um, that's probably the only thing I, I like to do things that are like fun, not fun, but like docu tainment, um, like, um, you know, teach an important lesson, but are also not just like eating spinach all day, right. Like, um, it's just like mobile spinach is good, but you know, it's fun. Yeah.
Speaker 5: (
01:19:00)
Um, I was just going to ask you, I, I love your Instagram and, uh, you use these great hashtags and I was just hoping if you could tell us a little bit about it.
Speaker 6: (
01:19:14)
Sure. So I am a big, um, probably two and a half to three years ago. I started hiking seriously. Um, so I do, and there's no better place to hike some Southern California, uh, or I mean, Colorado is probably better, but, um, I love hiking here. Um, so I do like longer hikes anywhere from probably not less than five, and haven't done more than 15
Speaker 5: (
01:19:39)
Smiles you're talking,
Speaker 6: (
01:19:43)
And there's not a lot of representation of larger bodies or, um, block people on the trail. So the hotspot is I use are black girls trucking, which is a group that I used to, um, hike with. Hasn't been hiking recently because of COVID, um, black girls, hiked fat girls, hiking, unlikely hikers, just things that really, um, diversity in race and body and all the other things outdoors. Um, you don't see a lot of size 14 black women hiking on the trail. You know, you just don't see that very often. And, um, I, I think it's important that we do see that and larger bodies and, and other and other ethnicities I'm off. I, um, was, you know, outdoors is a big deal and, and, um, unlikely hikers is for, is, um, inclusive of communities. So it's just important to me, that part of the reason why I started wanting to produce also is I wanted to see more of myself and more diversity and more of other types of people. Um, and so I want to see those things outdoors as well. Uh, yeah,
Speaker 5: (
01:20:59)
I love that. And, and, and, and it's a great Testament to the fact that when we talk about how representation matters, we're not just saying in film and TV, we're saying in all aspects of enjoying one's life, and it's amazing, it never ceases to amaze me how you could completely out of your own awareness, be influenced and think, well, I might like to hike, but that's not for me only because you would never see that, you know, on somebody's Instagram or just in life. And that, that all it takes is somebody like, I was just having this conversation with my husband the other day, because when I watched the inauguration, I literally cried my eyes out for like seven hours. It was so intense. And when my husband got home, he was like, Whoa, what's going on? And I said, I did not plan to watch this.
Speaker 5: (
01:21:52)
I sat, that's the making me emotional, just thinking about it, because if you're a, a U T, he, he is a white man, takes it for granted that he just sees versions of himself in all aspects of life. And I said, you know, it's not that there's no women in government and high positions of government, but the fact that it took us this long to get a woman in the second highest position in the land is sad, but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm happy. We're finally getting there. And the moment when, um, was the Sonia Sotomayer Elena Kagan, and it was Elena Kagan, was it?
Speaker 5: (
01:22:35)
It was her. Okay. So she's holding the Bible and calm less. I read just, it was so intense. And I thought, yeah, because growing up, you know, you, you hear about things that are happening in Congress and the Senate. And it's like, yeah, it's just a bunch of white guys. Right. And you don't, you know, not that I ever wanted to be in politics, but just the idea that it would, I wouldn't have ever asked myself if I wanted to be in politics, but I've never seen, really brings it also back to the theater school of like, look, we needed to say two, two,
Speaker 7: (
01:23:06)
It could have been, it just could have been so great to say, Hey, Erica, you're a bad-ass actor, but also, you know, please consider directing because you have an eye for XYZ. It just brings it back to like representation in conservatories as well, like representation in general. Right. It's like, right. You could teach, you could, I'm like, wow,
Speaker 6: (
01:23:29)
How many directors of color did we have at theater school? How many outside? Like, so somebody asked me like, when was the first time you had a black teacher? And it was college and it was Phyllis. And she was literally the only one, literally like, you know, you don't think, Oh, I can be. I mean, you do think, but you don't see yourself as a director. You don't see yourself as being able to educate people. You don't see, it's not reflected back at you. And it's so important, so important. And I hope they have more teachers of color.
Speaker 7: (
01:24:02)
They do. They do. And I, I teach there occasionally and I, yeah. At fourth year BFA is I started teaching there and I'm going to teach there again. And it's, it's changed a lot. But when we went to school, there were some real problem areas, a real problem. We went to a school at a very specific time when everything was pretty rough in terms of,
Speaker 6: (
01:24:30)
I remember sobbing in Phyllis's office. So it was also very important to me at theater school, because I wanted to be thin and not have big boobs and not look the way I looked. And, and she's the first aside from my mother, she was the first person I had told that I didn't want to look the way that I looked. And she was like, don't, you know, that women are out there injecting their lips and making their boobs bigger and making their butts bigger to look like you, like, don't, you know, that how is like, and I, she probably said something else that was more important than that. But I was like, Oh, so there were like moments that really sunk in and help. But I shouldn't, I shouldn't, um, overlook the fact that being a black student at theater school at the time was, was really hard, was hard because there weren't a lot of us. Um, and then they, they wanted us all to be in the same show together and play the same kind of part pop, hip hop tiger lilies.
Speaker 5: (
01:25:32)
Right, right, right. Because everybody sees you as black, before they see you as an actor. So, right. So, so it's, and, and, and to think back to that time, and I'm sure people like the director of that show, you know, were really just patting themselves on the back like that they wanted to do whatever that production of Peter pan has come up in many times.
Speaker 7: (
01:26:03)
Yes. Oh
Speaker 5: (
01:26:04)
Yes.
Speaker 6: (
01:26:05)
It doesn't surprise me because it was offensive. Yeah. Especially it was offensive back then, but looking at it through the days of, you know, 20, 21, um, like all the, whatever I can't.
Speaker 5: (
01:26:21)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we, we almost have to end, but I just, if there was any other anecdotes you wanted to, uh, get out there, I wanted to give you an opportunity to do that.
Speaker 6: (
01:26:31)
If I did not bring this up, um, I remember, you know, how you have to do crew projects on your first year. And so I remember, I don't know why they would make a first year student do this, but as everyone probably knew, I had an enormous crush on Leonard Roberts. And,
Speaker 5: (
01:26:52)
But you had a crush to it. Didn't you boss? I did. Everybody did. I was just scared. I didn't know.
Speaker 6: (
01:27:00)
I was on makeup crew for children, women, which was real important, like pivotal. I learned all my music from Karen mold and whoever else was on the plane. I need to Franco that whole time. Um, I had to paint mussels on Leonard Roberts bear chats with a wet sponge every day before the show.
Speaker 5: (
01:27:23)
She Oh,
Speaker 6: (
01:27:25)
Was mortified. And I'm sure he was too, because I'm sure he knew I had a crush on him. I was mortified. It was the most embarrassing thing. And I'm like, why would you make, first of all, you can't even talk to him, drawing on muscles from the audience. I just have to do this for my own, whatever. And then, um, yeah, it was horrifying.
Speaker 5: (
01:27:49)
Oh my God. That's, uh, we're going to have to have Leonard on and ask him what he remembers about that. About that came up a lot.
Speaker 6: (
01:28:06)
He's like this weird, he'll be like this weird first year who like, couldn't stop staring at him. He came into my life, paint me with makeup. What was she doing?
Speaker 5: (
01:28:22)
Find out what if you find out all these years later, he's like, I really liked this girl, but freaked out every time she was in front of me, she wasn't looking me in the face. Oh, that'd be fun. Thank you so much, Erica. This has been fantastic. And everybody should check you out on Instagram. What's your Instagram handle?
Speaker 6: (
01:28:45)
It's Nancy. Pat. So it's Y a N C Y C a N T Z.
Speaker 5: (
01:28:53)
Um,
Speaker 6: (
01:28:55)
Yeah. So check me out on Instagram.
Speaker 8: (
01:29:07)
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina [inaudible] are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina [inaudible]. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
Speaker 1: (
01:29:36)
Thank you.