WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:06.452 --> 00:00:06.662 Mike Caldwell: All right. 00:00:06.662 --> 00:00:10.712 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal Podcast. 00:00:10.712 --> 00:00:13.082 My name is Mike Klum, your host today. 00:00:13.082 --> 00:00:16.262 And joining me, Mitch Weathers and Sarah Oberly. 00:00:16.292 --> 00:00:16.682 Mitch. 00:00:16.682 --> 00:00:17.312 Sarah, welcome. 00:00:18.752 --> 00:00:19.832 Sarah O: Thanks for having us. 00:00:20.552 --> 00:00:21.392 Mitch Weathers: Glad to be here, Mike. 00:00:21.392 --> 00:00:22.262 Thanks for having us. 00:00:22.820 --> 00:00:26.150 Mike Caldwell: We're gonna get into the work that you guys have done together. 00:00:26.150 --> 00:00:36.890 Really important work book, getting close to launching this next month, but it's always helpful to start with a little bit of context on your journey, on how you got here, how we got here. 00:00:36.890 --> 00:00:43.460 So I. This is Two, two Rivers emerging to create something special in this book. 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:45.200 I don't know which one of you want to start. 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:48.350 Maybe I'll start with Sarah, give a little bit of your background. 00:00:48.350 --> 00:00:50.000 She's pushing it over to, to, to Mitch. 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:51.500 But Sarah, I'm gonna start with you anyway. 00:00:51.500 --> 00:00:58.580 You can give us a little bit of your background, uh, or a lot of your background where, wherever you want to go, and then you can kick it over to Mitch when you're ready. 00:00:59.990 --> 00:01:00.800 Sarah O: Sounds good. 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:03.650 Uh, I am a first grade teacher. 00:01:03.650 --> 00:01:13.730 This is my 18th year teaching first grade, and several years ago, actually, right when COVID started, I decided to go back to school and pursue a doctorate. 00:01:13.790 --> 00:01:23.840 And in the process of that and doing some studies and learning about some things, I stumbled across Mitch Weathers and listened to one of his. 00:01:24.845 --> 00:01:38.105 Podcast about executive functioning and I was heavily studying working memory at the time for my school, for my schoolwork, and working memory being very, being one of the core executive functions. 00:01:38.105 --> 00:01:49.985 I was so curious to hear more from him, and I was so impressed that there was someone out there who was thinking about executive function in the context of tier one. 00:01:50.555 --> 00:02:03.605 Because I'm a general education teacher, I certainly have special education students, but the only time in my career that EPS has come up has been when we're talking about like a psychoeducational evaluation when we're talking an IEP. 00:02:04.145 --> 00:02:13.715 Very long story short, I reached out to Mitch and eventually we connected and I just said, I said, we need this for, 'cause his original book was grades three to 12. 00:02:13.715 --> 00:02:15.425 And I said, but we so desperately need this. 00:02:15.425 --> 00:02:17.790 In the primary years, this is our all day, every day. 00:02:18.515 --> 00:02:28.205 And if we can't get over this hump, then there's no content to be learned until we can get them to pay attention, until we can get them to keep them, their hands to themselves, all of these things. 00:02:28.235 --> 00:02:37.535 Mitch and I stayed in touch for a few years and did some work together here and there, and became friends, and I had finished school and some other big projects and. 00:02:38.405 --> 00:02:46.565 Mitch was coming off the first year of success of his first book and he said, we, let's write this book for the primary years. 00:02:46.565 --> 00:02:47.855 And I said, let's do it. 00:02:48.155 --> 00:02:48.765 So here we are. 00:02:50.165 --> 00:02:50.885 Mike Caldwell: Fantastic. 00:02:51.935 --> 00:02:53.735 Mitch, can you corroborate on all that? 00:02:53.735 --> 00:02:54.935 Is that all mostly true? 00:02:55.025 --> 00:02:56.855 Mitch Weathers: Most of that's true, Mike. 00:02:56.855 --> 00:03:02.075 I'm not, I can't quote all of it, but no, it, she left out a few key points. 00:03:02.075 --> 00:03:03.005 Yes, it was. 00:03:03.065 --> 00:03:10.350 Sarah reached out and then invited me to participate in a conference, a research ed conference. 00:03:10.355 --> 00:03:14.105 She was not only finishing her doctoral work. 00:03:14.705 --> 00:03:15.935 Teaching full-time. 00:03:16.175 --> 00:03:26.615 She's a wife and a mom of two and she decided to organize and host a conference all at the same time and invited me two years ahead of time. 00:03:26.615 --> 00:03:33.695 So here's the part she left out is she reached out, and it is true, she said, you're talking about executive functions in tier one for all kids. 00:03:34.205 --> 00:03:39.305 And she was really passionate about translating a program I designed called Organized Binder into Primary. 00:03:39.305 --> 00:03:42.845 And so we did, we became friends and we'd meet and we'd talk and plan, and she had. 00:03:43.355 --> 00:03:47.045 Asked me two years ahead of time, Hey, I'm organizing this conference. 00:03:47.045 --> 00:03:52.265 It's not till 2024, and I really think your voice needs to be there. 00:03:52.295 --> 00:03:53.795 Would you come and participate? 00:03:53.855 --> 00:03:56.195 I can't pay you a speaker fee or cover your travel. 00:03:56.195 --> 00:03:56.885 What do you think? 00:03:57.485 --> 00:04:00.275 Oh, by the way, the conference is in Delaware and you're in California. 00:04:00.565 --> 00:04:03.145 And Sarah being as charming as she is. 00:04:03.625 --> 00:04:04.795 But of course I agreed. 00:04:04.795 --> 00:04:05.935 I thought it would be really fun. 00:04:05.935 --> 00:04:25.855 And I'd say all that to say I, I got to participate, but I also got to sit in on Sarah's talks at this event and I had just never heard a more succinct, and I don't think anyone will, when they read this book, a more succinct explanation of working memory and cognitive load, and in particular to her. 00:04:26.110 --> 00:04:32.860 Context of those primary years that I was just blown away and she'd mentioned my first book. 00:04:32.860 --> 00:04:35.530 I focused primarily on grades three through 12. 00:04:35.530 --> 00:04:40.600 'cause I felt that was, I wanted it to be very authentic and genuine. 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:45.190 And I have spent time, my career teaching in middle school and high school. 00:04:45.670 --> 00:04:49.120 And then with my work collaborating with districts and schools I've worked with. 00:04:49.210 --> 00:04:51.190 Middle, upper elementary as well. 00:04:51.190 --> 00:04:54.730 So I really felt like I could speak authentically to those grade bands. 00:04:54.730 --> 00:04:59.860 But what I knew I couldn't do is speak to the primary years because it's just so different. 00:05:00.520 --> 00:05:03.280 And so when I heard Sarah speak, it didn't dawn on me. 00:05:03.280 --> 00:05:06.220 I realized, oh, there's something there. 00:05:06.730 --> 00:05:11.440 But the feedback, the impetus for me when I texted Sarah and said, Hey, I got an idea. 00:05:11.440 --> 00:05:12.040 You got a second? 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:13.900 Uh, let's jump on a phone call. 00:05:13.900 --> 00:05:16.240 I was going to pick up my youngest daughter from school. 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:23.030 Mike, the overwhelming like feedback from primary teachers was kind of like, what about us? 00:05:23.030 --> 00:05:23.870 We love this book. 00:05:23.870 --> 00:05:28.730 We're part of this book study, but it doesn't, and it shouldn't have fit for what we do. 00:05:29.060 --> 00:05:38.660 There's things I can glean from it, and that's great, but it's not written for us in our context because it's just so different and it's really important to make that distinction. 00:05:39.290 --> 00:05:42.320 And Corwin was asking, Hey, what do you think about writing another book? 00:05:42.595 --> 00:05:45.085 And this first one was well received. 00:05:45.625 --> 00:05:48.565 And at first I was like, never, I'm never doing that again. 00:05:48.625 --> 00:05:54.835 That was a horrible, painful, arduous process that I'm not very good at, and I'm glad it's well received. 00:05:54.835 --> 00:06:02.935 But I, I'm gonna get back to my work with organized binder, but I just had this nagging feeling of, this work needs to be out there. 00:06:03.085 --> 00:06:04.645 It doesn't exist yet. 00:06:05.215 --> 00:06:08.755 This book that Sarah and I wrote and just felt that call. 00:06:08.755 --> 00:06:11.395 So I texted, we jumped on the phone and she said, sure. 00:06:11.395 --> 00:06:11.665 And. 00:06:12.350 --> 00:06:16.130 We reached out to Corwin and they loved the idea, and here we are. 00:06:16.130 --> 00:06:18.320 What, like a year and a half later talking to you. 00:06:19.850 --> 00:06:20.510 Mike Caldwell: Fantastic. 00:06:20.930 --> 00:06:20.990 Mitch Weathers: Yeah. 00:06:20.990 --> 00:06:21.860 That's the full story. 00:06:22.820 --> 00:06:23.270 Mike Caldwell: I love it. 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:24.620 Yeah, it brings it all together. 00:06:25.490 --> 00:06:36.230 Sarah, I'm curious for you, your first grade teacher, but at some point you decided to kind of go deep into the executive functioning and really become an an expert in that area. 00:06:36.440 --> 00:06:37.460 What was the. 00:06:37.955 --> 00:06:40.685 Can you pinpoint the catalyst moment for you? 00:06:40.685 --> 00:06:46.805 It's like, when did that become one of the most important things for you to, to focus on? 00:06:47.945 --> 00:06:52.265 Sarah O: So a lot of what I do has to do with literacy. 00:06:52.265 --> 00:06:55.535 Of course, being a first grade teacher, I'm teaching my students how to read. 00:06:56.615 --> 00:07:05.555 And I would say probably 10 or so years into teaching, I started to notice the same problems over and over with kids that were struggling. 00:07:05.555 --> 00:07:13.325 And I just desperately wanted to understand why, because as teachers we're given, well, here's an intervention that you can facilitate, but we never. 00:07:13.525 --> 00:07:17.215 It's never really explained to us like what's breaking down, what's going on. 00:07:17.245 --> 00:07:24.385 And I um, have always been someone that likes to know the behind the scenes, wants to know how the parts are working and not working. 00:07:24.445 --> 00:07:30.865 It was really, that was when the science of reading was just waking up, was just getting going. 00:07:31.285 --> 00:07:40.225 And I was fascinated by some of the research that was being translated about reading instruction and how learning to read happens. 00:07:40.255 --> 00:07:42.420 What's actually happening in your mind when you learn to read. 00:07:43.625 --> 00:07:47.345 However, literacy by itself is not my passion. 00:07:47.975 --> 00:07:49.205 Um, I say that carefully. 00:07:49.205 --> 00:08:01.925 As a first grade teacher, I was more agnostic in terms of, I just am fascinated by learning in general, how we pay attention, how we remember things, what motivates us. 00:08:02.300 --> 00:08:03.920 And so I, I think. 00:08:04.420 --> 00:08:22.780 While reading got me interested in the cognitive science behind learning, it was really when I went to school, my focus, it initially was on educational neuroscience, but I found out very quickly that was not necessarily helpful for practice and I really wanted to make sure that what I was doing was gonna benefit. 00:08:23.090 --> 00:08:30.530 Teachers in the classroom, uh, in terms of making research about how learning happens accessible and relevant for teachers. 00:08:30.530 --> 00:08:35.000 So what can we extract from the research that's going to be useful for us in the classroom? 00:08:35.540 --> 00:08:36.980 Um, so that's what. 00:08:37.490 --> 00:08:46.190 Got my wheels turning initially, but I appreciate this, these topics, because it doesn't matter what you're teaching, it doesn't matter who you're teaching. 00:08:46.520 --> 00:08:55.760 It's like I've said before, this is just being human is having executive functions, and so how can we harness this knowledge to help our students be success? 00:08:57.650 --> 00:08:58.460 Mike Caldwell: Thank you for that. 00:08:58.610 --> 00:09:07.850 So, Mitch, so much of your work prior to this project was around the organized binder, and you said that's really targeted grades three and above. 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:08.330 Mm-hmm. 00:09:08.570 --> 00:09:23.270 So can you give us, for the, for our listeners, like maybe what, just give us a little bit of a base on where the organized, what the organized binder is, who it's for, and then how that translates to the work that you're doing now with Sarah on this book. 00:09:24.065 --> 00:09:24.155 Mitch Weathers: Sure. 00:09:24.815 --> 00:09:25.325 Yeah. 00:09:25.385 --> 00:09:28.955 Organized binder became a thing in my classroom. 00:09:29.165 --> 00:09:30.425 It was a program I designed. 00:09:30.425 --> 00:09:38.855 I didn't necessarily have the language or the terminology to say, I am gonna design this thing that supports the development of executive functions over time. 00:09:38.945 --> 00:09:40.805 The only reason it's called Organized binder is my kids. 00:09:41.735 --> 00:09:48.125 Students, many of them for the first time were getting and staying organized and they were really proud of their binder. 00:09:48.125 --> 00:09:51.755 Spent most of my career in ninth grade working with multi-language learners. 00:09:51.785 --> 00:09:56.765 Met a large title one comprehensive public high school out here in Northern California. 00:09:57.335 --> 00:10:07.235 And it was quite the transformation for them to the point that so much so that other teachers started showing up to my classroom asking, Hey, what's going on in here? 00:10:07.235 --> 00:10:09.090 Because I'm working with the same kids and. 00:10:10.070 --> 00:10:19.790 We're not finding any success and they keep talking about this binder in your class and how they love it, and that was just the kind of spark in some ways. 00:10:19.790 --> 00:10:22.880 My school adopted the program, not my choice. 00:10:23.150 --> 00:10:26.150 Voted grassroots by all the teachers in ninth grade. 00:10:26.150 --> 00:10:27.770 Everybody adopted this. 00:10:28.455 --> 00:10:39.255 Binder system, this organized binder, and for the first time I found myself one kind of in a quasi study seeing this program that's really. 00:10:40.145 --> 00:10:48.185 Content and grade level agnostic, but seeing it in different contexts, different learning environments, all the same grade level, ninth grade. 00:10:48.575 --> 00:10:54.605 And also finding myself in, um, professional development role, but with your own colleagues, which can be a little weird. 00:10:54.635 --> 00:11:01.385 50 miles makes an expert and this is all homegrown and, but, so it was just a really interesting learning time for me. 00:11:01.385 --> 00:11:08.495 And then it just, that just kept replicating to the point where I had to figure out, okay, how do I start to like. 00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:16.230 Meaningfully React, respond and serve schools, and then it became districts that were reaching out. 00:11:16.230 --> 00:11:30.420 Curious about This program ultimately led to me writing my first book that came out in 24, because the number of teachers and parents that would write in through the organized binder website asking for, Hey, can I bring this to my classroom? 00:11:30.420 --> 00:11:31.265 Or can do this with a kid? 00:11:31.290 --> 00:11:33.900 And as a fellow teacher, I've never. 00:11:34.400 --> 00:11:41.240 We don't sell the program to individual teachers because there's a student materials component, there's training, there's support, all that. 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:52.850 I just morally am opposed to that, but in the same kind of spirit, like how do I, how do I show up for folks who write in instead of saying, we don't sell it to individuals. 00:11:52.850 --> 00:11:53.840 That's not what you want to hear. 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:56.510 So I did my best with the first book to write. 00:11:56.930 --> 00:11:57.890 Okay, so if you weren't. 00:11:58.490 --> 00:12:05.660 Working with us, you didn't have the training and support, you didn't have the materials component, which really matter in those grade bands. 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:11.540 And my kind of promise to the readers, I'll get you 80% of the way there all by yourself reading this book. 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:16.640 So in, in some ways it's all of the strategies in inherent to this program. 00:12:16.970 --> 00:12:19.395 It's really about more than anything, creating. 00:12:20.195 --> 00:12:36.695 Really predictable learning environments, and as a byproduct of engaging in a predictable daily routine, students get practiced doing these executive functions, practicing them, seeing them getting messy with it, but all mixed up in the content of the grade level or the subject. 00:12:37.265 --> 00:12:39.350 But as I mentioned, so you asked like, how does that. 00:12:40.100 --> 00:12:42.140 Translate to the work doing with Sarah. 00:12:42.800 --> 00:12:49.580 We spent a couple years trying sent her, I sent her an organized binder and she was sitting in her classroom on lunch and we're going through it and she's like, this is great. 00:12:50.030 --> 00:12:51.890 This isn't gonna work for my first graders. 00:12:51.890 --> 00:12:55.340 It's just not gonna work Like the, it's not, it's not appropriate. 00:12:55.910 --> 00:13:01.340 And that was the journey of this book is saying, okay, we think so my original kind of. 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:03.440 Brainchild, if you will. 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:04.340 Mike was okay. 00:13:04.340 --> 00:13:07.190 We have this first book, it's mentioned it. 00:13:07.190 --> 00:13:10.880 It's been really well received, great feedback all over the world. 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:18.320 We can use that as this roadmap in some ways, like chapter outlines, topics to get us a starting point for book two. 00:13:19.250 --> 00:13:32.330 And it took us probably what, Sarah, a couple months of trying that and meeting and writing and talking and meeting and, and to finally get to a place, and I think it was Sarah Morino that was like breaking the news to me like. 00:13:33.170 --> 00:13:34.160 This isn't gonna work. 00:13:34.370 --> 00:13:36.170 We got, we have to start fresh. 00:13:36.170 --> 00:13:37.910 It's a completely different context. 00:13:37.910 --> 00:13:42.680 Yes, it's still executive functions, but we're focusing on what's known as the core executive functions. 00:13:42.680 --> 00:13:46.940 Whereas the, my first book and organized binders were about higher order executive functioning. 00:13:47.390 --> 00:14:01.310 And there the distinction exists there, Mike, because of the developmental process in humans, as Sarah was saying, and so that the core executive functions are really appropriate for the primary years, and you'll see it in the book. 00:14:01.715 --> 00:14:06.845 The second book that we wrote, there's overlap with both Core and higher order, right? 00:14:06.845 --> 00:14:13.985 So there's things to learn, and I believe every teacher, not just primary teachers and parents will benefit from the book. 00:14:13.985 --> 00:14:18.665 Sarah and I wrote, but it so it, it, the initial work led to it. 00:14:19.715 --> 00:14:23.555 But there was a point where we had to say, okay, we're not scrapping all of that. 00:14:23.585 --> 00:14:28.265 But it's not a direct, we're not just gonna translate it into K 1 23. 00:14:28.805 --> 00:14:32.345 And just real quick for the record, we get asked this question quite a bit. 00:14:32.465 --> 00:14:36.845 You have one book that's K through three and you have a book that's three through 12. 00:14:37.385 --> 00:14:39.005 Why is three show up in both? 00:14:39.005 --> 00:14:46.595 And it really is like in our, at least in the US context in terms of that glos grade, see that grade sequence? 00:14:47.170 --> 00:14:51.400 Third grade's kind of this interesting inflection point that can lean. 00:14:51.845 --> 00:14:58.745 Closer to primary, more second grade, or it can lean fourth grade depending on who the learners are in the room, who the teacher is. 00:14:58.745 --> 00:14:59.885 Just that context. 00:14:59.885 --> 00:15:03.575 But there's also something there that happens often unspoken. 00:15:03.575 --> 00:15:10.895 Is this kind of expectation or assumption that you're starting to become a more independent learner. 00:15:11.235 --> 00:15:17.055 Ended moving into fourth grade and then fifth grade in some districts, like fifth grade's, kind of the start of middle school. 00:15:17.055 --> 00:15:19.935 Others it's sixth and then some, it's seventh. 00:15:19.935 --> 00:15:23.925 So we, we chose to overlap those on purpose with both books. 00:15:25.125 --> 00:15:25.485 Mike Caldwell: Yeah. 00:15:26.985 --> 00:15:30.735 You alluded to my next question and maybe Sarah, I'll kick this over to you. 00:15:30.795 --> 00:15:33.780 Let's maybe take a minute to define the terms or go a little bit. 00:15:34.685 --> 00:15:35.615 Under the hood here. 00:15:35.615 --> 00:15:52.775 When you talk about executive functions, and you mentioned core versus higher order, can you elaborate kind of what you mean by core versus higher order for audience, and then maybe elaborate a little bit on why does that distinction matter specifically for K through three? 00:15:54.395 --> 00:16:13.535 Sarah O: So executive functions are an interrelated network of cognitive processes that we use to pay attention to achieve a goal, to remember what we need to remember to demonstrate self-control in inhibit some of our reflexes. 00:16:14.045 --> 00:16:18.335 All of those things are manifested through our executive functions. 00:16:18.815 --> 00:16:20.615 There are six separate. 00:16:20.890 --> 00:16:21.640 I say separate. 00:16:21.640 --> 00:16:22.900 They're very interconnected. 00:16:22.900 --> 00:16:29.320 But we'll talk about six different cognitive processes that are, that fall under the executive function umbrella. 00:16:29.560 --> 00:16:32.170 And those six are divided into two groups. 00:16:32.170 --> 00:16:37.390 We have the core, which is what this book that we're talking about, um, is about. 00:16:38.140 --> 00:16:42.490 The core executive functions are working memory inhibition and cognitive flexibility. 00:16:43.090 --> 00:16:47.380 And then you have the higher order, which are born out of. 00:16:47.810 --> 00:16:53.900 The successful collaboration, I'll say, and development of the core executive functions. 00:16:53.900 --> 00:16:57.110 And those are problem solving, planning, and reasoning. 00:16:57.650 --> 00:17:11.240 Um, the reason why we focused on the three core is because, um, between the ages of four and eight, that's when these cognitive processes are really developing. 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:14.330 As if you're a kindergarten teacher, you're not necessarily. 00:17:15.140 --> 00:17:25.130 Expecting or worried about your student's ability to reason, but you are concerned with their ability to not act on every impulse. 00:17:25.430 --> 00:17:30.170 You are concerned with their ability to pay attention and how much, how long? 00:17:30.350 --> 00:17:32.150 What can I do to help them pay attention? 00:17:32.150 --> 00:17:34.340 How long should I expect them to pay attention? 00:17:34.760 --> 00:17:36.590 How much can I expect them to remember? 00:17:36.590 --> 00:17:43.460 And what are some factors that might be undermining their ability to remember in the classroom that. 00:17:43.745 --> 00:17:49.475 I'm not aware of, but maybe if I knew about this, I would say, oh, this is actually, I'm running upstream here. 00:17:49.475 --> 00:17:50.765 There's some things I can do. 00:17:50.765 --> 00:17:56.405 I can just subtly adjust to support my students wherever they are. 00:17:56.405 --> 00:18:01.085 And to be clear, we're not trying to teach our students executive functions. 00:18:01.085 --> 00:18:02.645 They're not something that you can teach. 00:18:02.645 --> 00:18:04.475 They are cognitive processes. 00:18:04.475 --> 00:18:05.915 They develop on their own. 00:18:06.275 --> 00:18:08.195 We're not trying to force any development. 00:18:08.975 --> 00:18:25.925 We are saying with this book, we think that you deserve to know about this because it's relevant to what you do, and we want you to be able to preserve whatever your students come to you with for learning and not waste some of that cognitive bandwidth on. 00:18:26.285 --> 00:18:37.445 Distractions or peer relationships that scenarios with peer relationships that can siphon off some of these, some of the capacity that we want to be saved for learning. 00:18:37.445 --> 00:18:52.265 And those things sneak in very easily and quickly and you start to see these little, these sort of attention robbers, if you will, things that make it harder for our students to, to be successful in the classroom. 00:18:55.160 --> 00:19:01.400 Mike Caldwell: So I wanna zero in on something I heard, and just to make sure I understand that for our audience as well. 00:19:01.940 --> 00:19:22.880 I think sometimes as educators, we think we see things within our students, such as their ability to organize or stay organized or the ability to follow through on, on, on things as necessarily personality traits, but like they're built in who based on their character, personality, or whatever else, can you. 00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:36.020 Reframe executive functioning skills as teachable development capacities, or did I hear you say that you can't really develop, or you're not, your book is not really focused on developing those. 00:19:36.020 --> 00:19:41.910 Can you tease that out a little bit as, do we just inherit these and or just deal with them? 00:19:41.910 --> 00:19:43.610 Or how do you help your students develop those? 00:19:44.915 --> 00:19:59.345 Sarah O: So we're not trying to, to be fair, what we're trying to do is say, I know that developmentally you are here, and because of that, I'm going to create a context and environment for you that. 00:19:59.810 --> 00:20:10.550 That does not test the limited development, develop developed executive functions that you have working memory being one of the core executive functions. 00:20:10.550 --> 00:20:17.180 There's working memory training programs and people that'll be happy to take your money and say, we're gonna increase your working memory. 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:20.030 Um, those programs do not. 00:20:20.360 --> 00:20:22.940 Generalize so you'll get better. 00:20:22.940 --> 00:20:25.820 Your working memory will get better on doing that exact task. 00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:30.680 If it's sequencing or sequencing shapes, you're gonna get better at sequencing shapes. 00:20:30.830 --> 00:20:38.240 You're not gonna get better at remembering directions, remembering content to complete an activity or whatever it is that you want the ultimate goal to be. 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:41.390 So we're not forcing, um. 00:20:42.170 --> 00:20:42.950 Our students. 00:20:43.070 --> 00:20:47.300 It's not like we're gonna say, and I use this example, I'm not trying to make them get taller, right? 00:20:47.330 --> 00:20:48.230 That's happening. 00:20:48.770 --> 00:20:51.020 It's just happening and it's gonna happen on its own. 00:20:51.320 --> 00:21:04.550 But I'm trying to create an environment that respects the fact that they're kinda little, and so my environment needs to honor that and not put things way up high where they can't really reach it or where it's gonna just make things harder for them. 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:06.950 Does that answer your question? 00:21:08.465 --> 00:21:10.955 Mitch Weathers: Yeah, and can I jump into Mike on that? 00:21:10.955 --> 00:21:11.435 Go ahead, Mitch. 00:21:11.855 --> 00:21:14.255 You Yeah, you're right Mo like it. 00:21:14.255 --> 00:21:15.425 It's an interesting 00:21:17.495 --> 00:21:23.615 conversation, I guess you'd say, is when you think of executive functions, they are these cognitive processes. 00:21:23.615 --> 00:21:25.925 We know in the brain where they're happening. 00:21:25.925 --> 00:21:30.395 We know like generally when they're developing into our mid. 00:21:31.175 --> 00:21:33.605 Even late twenties if you follow the research. 00:21:33.905 --> 00:21:36.005 And that's really interesting and it really is. 00:21:36.065 --> 00:21:41.495 But in terms of the practitioner, what's that mean for me in the classroom? 00:21:41.855 --> 00:21:45.935 And that's where the distinction between core and higher order really come into play. 00:21:45.965 --> 00:21:49.775 'cause we look at core executive functions, working memory, it's like active. 00:21:50.825 --> 00:21:55.565 Place in our brain, which really is kinda the engine for learning and my ability to pay attention. 00:21:55.565 --> 00:22:01.745 And it's not like necessarily a skill that's manifesting from that working memory. 00:22:01.745 --> 00:22:05.345 It's the capacity we're trying to really preserve or protect. 00:22:05.345 --> 00:22:06.005 'cause it's finite. 00:22:06.335 --> 00:22:07.265 There's only so much. 00:22:07.265 --> 00:22:09.935 And what we know from the research is to Sarah's point. 00:22:10.820 --> 00:22:17.300 You have what you have and you're not gonna grow it like strengthening a muscle or something like that. 00:22:17.300 --> 00:22:31.130 So because it's finite, we want to shape environments, our instruction, our routines, so that I'm not using working memory capacity to try to keep up or navigate the classroom or figure out what I'm supposed to be doing. 00:22:31.190 --> 00:22:31.830 We wanna use that. 00:22:32.265 --> 00:22:35.175 Engine for self-regulation, for learning, et cetera. 00:22:35.685 --> 00:22:37.215 Inhibition, same kind of thing. 00:22:37.215 --> 00:22:47.835 Second core, ef, where can I inhibit my own internal feelings and what's going on the external and what, how can we craft environments that help with that? 00:22:47.835 --> 00:22:50.925 Recognizing we can't do a whole lot with the internal often. 00:22:51.495 --> 00:22:57.225 And then cognitive flexibility or shifting that, can I adjust if the routine doesn't go as planned? 00:22:57.225 --> 00:22:58.665 'cause sometimes we have those. 00:22:59.505 --> 00:23:01.030 So a lot of the point of. 00:23:01.475 --> 00:23:17.255 This book and what Sarah was just saying is like, we've been talking a lot about like putting on a, an executive function, core executive function, pair of glasses and looking at the spaces we curate as teachers and are they. 00:23:17.855 --> 00:23:21.395 Contributing to cognitive load, which is taxing work and memory or not. 00:23:21.395 --> 00:23:27.095 Are there ways in which you can adjust the things you're already doing, which is good news for teachers because it's not something else to do. 00:23:27.635 --> 00:23:32.105 It's just looking at your instruction, looking at your routines through a different lens. 00:23:33.080 --> 00:23:55.580 Where you hear executive functioning skills that really does a higher order are also these cognitive processes, but the behaviors that are manifesting in those grades from the higher order executive function development can be translated into skills like organization and goal, goal-oriented behavior, time and task management, self-regulation. 00:23:55.910 --> 00:24:00.170 All things that are relevant to first grade, right and primary years. 00:24:00.710 --> 00:24:08.240 But that third grade, that assumption or the expectation by the time you get to me in ninth grade is you're in ninth grade or when you get to college. 00:24:08.750 --> 00:24:12.590 It's really interesting working with colleges, with my work at Organized Binder. 00:24:12.590 --> 00:24:14.330 'cause you're in college now. 00:24:14.330 --> 00:24:16.730 You're supposed to be able to do that, that expectation. 00:24:16.730 --> 00:24:21.260 And when you hear that, you really are talking about behaviors you should know to do that. 00:24:21.260 --> 00:24:22.220 You're in ninth grade. 00:24:23.055 --> 00:24:32.385 But those behaviors, those skills and habits do manifest or stem from the honing and development of these executive functions. 00:24:32.385 --> 00:24:44.625 So it's, it gets mixed up and we've made a point very clearly, especially with the core, you have to say that they're actually like working memory is not a skill that you're going to train up in a student. 00:24:45.075 --> 00:24:49.095 And when you start to recognize that, it's really interesting with this book is. 00:24:49.755 --> 00:24:51.495 Once you see it, you can't unsee it. 00:24:51.500 --> 00:24:53.475 You, you won't see your classroom the same. 00:24:53.475 --> 00:24:59.595 You won't see your instructions, your routines, the acoustic environment, the furniture, everything. 00:24:59.655 --> 00:25:01.365 You see it differently. 00:25:02.385 --> 00:25:02.505 Mike Caldwell: Yeah. 00:25:02.505 --> 00:25:02.685 If that 00:25:02.685 --> 00:25:02.955 Mitch Weathers: helps. 00:25:04.155 --> 00:25:04.395 Mike Caldwell: Yeah. 00:25:04.515 --> 00:25:06.825 Between what both of you said, it helps a ton. 00:25:06.825 --> 00:25:12.675 It's really, as opposed to thinking these as skills to develop, it's really looking at these. 00:25:13.310 --> 00:25:19.490 Executive functions through the lens of, as you mentioned, environment, instruction, and routines. 00:25:19.580 --> 00:25:34.520 And I love the analogy or the comparison, Sarah, that you made with, if someone was, you're, you're built this classroom for somebody that was super tall and the things that they had, the pencil sharpener is six feet off the ground as opposed to two feet off the ground or three feet off the ground. 00:25:34.610 --> 00:25:35.090 That's. 00:25:35.375 --> 00:25:38.315 Something you can control based on the person's height. 00:25:38.405 --> 00:25:47.045 So can you talk a little bit about maybe what does this mean in practice for when you think about this through the lens of environment instruction or routines? 00:25:47.435 --> 00:25:52.385 Can you give a couple kind of tangible examples of what this might look like? 00:25:53.855 --> 00:25:54.635 Sarah O: Yeah, absolutely. 00:25:54.635 --> 00:26:01.355 And I wanna, I always wanna be clear that the book is really meant to share information. 00:26:01.385 --> 00:26:04.205 It's from the research, but it's not. 00:26:05.120 --> 00:26:06.470 We're not trying to impress anybody. 00:26:06.470 --> 00:26:15.560 We're trying to give information that's valid and scientifically accurate, but only in service of supporting practice. 00:26:15.560 --> 00:26:20.510 So it's very practical and it is not, it's not lessons you have to teach. 00:26:20.510 --> 00:26:23.420 It's not something that, it's not something else to do. 00:26:23.450 --> 00:26:30.140 This is just here, take this knowledge and use it in your classroom in however way fit some of the examples. 00:26:31.265 --> 00:26:35.945 The most tangible example would be related to the classroom environment. 00:26:36.515 --> 00:26:49.595 So along the lines of, look, if you want your kids to be having pencil sharp, there are two sharp pencils at the start of the day, and you put the pencil sharpener way up high, you're making it harder for them to fulfill your expectations. 00:26:50.135 --> 00:26:52.985 Attention is a very resource heavy. 00:26:53.990 --> 00:26:55.100 Cognitive demand. 00:26:55.460 --> 00:27:07.160 And so when we in our classrooms are putting visual distractions around the room, particularly novel ones, like you're changing things out. 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:10.370 Maybe it's seasonal, maybe it's student work, that it's changing. 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:18.440 It's very hard for your students to not look and focus and think about these things. 00:27:18.710 --> 00:27:21.800 And so we would never tell a primary teacher. 00:27:22.610 --> 00:27:28.850 Do not have a lovely, comfy, warm, fuzzy classroom at all. 00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:51.560 What we say in the book is if there's a particular visual field that you want your students to be looking at, meaning there's an area, there's a space in the room where you want their attention, do not have the supplies for the ice cream party right next to it because what are they gonna be looking at and now not realizing the struggle that they're having. 00:27:52.010 --> 00:27:56.810 Um, to filter out the stuff that they're not supposed to be looking at. 00:27:56.810 --> 00:27:59.240 That would be hard for an adult, let alone a child. 00:27:59.600 --> 00:28:13.040 So attention is actively paying attention, but it is also filtering out what you should not be paying attention to, being able to discriminate relevance, and so. 00:28:13.610 --> 00:28:17.900 We ask our kids to do that a lot and we don't realize it. 00:28:18.110 --> 00:28:30.620 Hang up student work in a place that is in a part of the room that doesn't interf or compete with when you're giving instruction where you want them to be looking because you're making it harder for them. 00:28:30.620 --> 00:28:34.100 It's like dangling the carrot and saying to the horse and saying, but don't look at that. 00:28:34.100 --> 00:28:34.940 Don't think about that. 00:28:34.940 --> 00:28:37.790 And then you're just, you have it in their line of sight. 00:28:38.330 --> 00:28:42.200 Um, so I would say environment is probably the most tangible. 00:28:43.370 --> 00:28:45.140 When people ask, give an example. 00:28:45.980 --> 00:28:57.080 Instruction wise, we have the utmost respect for pacing schedules and we know that you have to get done what you have to get done, and a lot is out of your hands there. 00:28:57.530 --> 00:29:07.580 What we talk about is how to pause within your lessons, um, how to give independent activities, give the instructions a little bit at a time. 00:29:08.030 --> 00:29:09.230 Probably much. 00:29:09.650 --> 00:29:17.180 Break it down much more than you normally would, and it's not adding time, it's just dividing the time differently. 00:29:17.570 --> 00:29:20.930 We talk about how to give directions a specific way to be you. 00:29:21.050 --> 00:29:26.660 Like the less the fewer words pos or possible, the better being succinct. 00:29:27.050 --> 00:29:34.760 Our students, a lot of them can't read, so we can't just like a middle school teacher, throw the directions up on the board and we certainly have visuals, but. 00:29:34.970 --> 00:29:51.860 There's things that you can do, there's ways that you can place things that make it, that, that ease the strain on our students' visual search, which taxes, working memory, um, and that reduces the demands on their. 00:29:52.985 --> 00:29:54.545 Inhibitory processes. 00:29:54.875 --> 00:30:00.065 The other areas we talked about environment, which I find instruction, uh, routines. 00:30:00.515 --> 00:30:04.745 So obviously primary teachers all know that routines are important. 00:30:04.745 --> 00:30:11.495 I don't have to tell anybody that, but you can be very purposeful with the routines that you create. 00:30:12.485 --> 00:30:19.055 And sometimes we need to set up routines within our routines because the expectation is do this and this, and it's, we do this every day. 00:30:19.055 --> 00:30:19.865 What's the problem? 00:30:19.895 --> 00:30:22.115 And it's because it's just too much at once. 00:30:22.115 --> 00:30:27.725 The no matter how many days in a row you do it, the expectation is just too much. 00:30:27.725 --> 00:30:30.395 So if you can break it up, go do this and this. 00:30:30.425 --> 00:30:31.505 Okay, check it off. 00:30:31.535 --> 00:30:34.745 Now we wipe the slate clean so your mind starts fresh. 00:30:34.775 --> 00:30:35.015 Okay? 00:30:35.015 --> 00:30:36.455 Now here's my next three tasks. 00:30:37.745 --> 00:30:41.585 Again, it's nothing that you have to change or add to your teaching. 00:30:41.915 --> 00:30:50.015 It's just knowledge that you can use to professionalize your decision making, and you'll start to see it in yourself as well. 00:30:50.165 --> 00:30:55.115 You'll start to notice, oh my, I didn't even realize I heard a noise, and I turn right to it. 00:30:55.115 --> 00:31:04.355 If adults do that, think about your six year olds and think about what that does when they're trying desperately to complete an independent task or to pay attention to you and talk to their neighbor. 00:31:04.805 --> 00:31:05.375 So. 00:31:06.005 --> 00:31:13.895 I think, you know, it starts to become the pair of glasses that you wear all the time in addition to all the other glasses that we wear, right? 00:31:14.405 --> 00:31:28.985 So those are just a few examples and we have scenarios in the book and we have many more charts that talk about different ways that you can mitigate certain things and um, but the whole idea is to be preventative. 00:31:31.685 --> 00:31:45.665 Mike Caldwell: I love that and I think all the things that you shared, I think if you've, you know, been in a classroom and or your school leader listening to this, it's very practical stuff when you peel it back and it triggers for me a memory. 00:31:46.715 --> 00:31:49.265 So I was high school, so this doesn't. 00:31:51.515 --> 00:32:04.475 Your context is a little bit different than my experience, but like I, I spent a day as a student shadow one, one day I just wanted to go experience my school from the lens of a student for a full day, and so threw on the backpack. 00:32:04.895 --> 00:32:09.275 A student agreed to adopt me for the day, so I went to all of her classes for the entire day. 00:32:09.875 --> 00:32:13.685 And as I was going through that experience, it was a wonderful experience. 00:32:13.685 --> 00:32:23.885 If you're a school leader out there, I highly recommend it, um, because it does change your lens on how you view things when you're sitting in a desk all day or you're taking notes and things like that. 00:32:23.885 --> 00:32:32.585 But one of my big takeaways that I reported back to my faculty, um, after going through this was how many times we were. 00:32:33.020 --> 00:32:47.145 Told maybe, okay, go read this assignment or go read these instructions, et cetera, and so forth, where we were sent to go do, but the teacher continued to instruct and give information and like. 00:32:48.485 --> 00:32:55.865 It just kept going and it's, am I supposed to pay attention and start or start reading here or am I supposed to pay attention to you or both? 00:32:55.865 --> 00:32:59.735 And I was completely just distracted by it. 00:32:59.735 --> 00:33:01.805 And, and so that was my big takeaway. 00:33:01.805 --> 00:33:11.885 So when you're talking about like those things that maybe we do unintentionally or not paying attention to it, that's what kind of drew experience for me in at the high school level. 00:33:11.885 --> 00:33:12.665 So I would imagine. 00:33:13.445 --> 00:33:18.305 First grade or whatever you talked about the supplies for the ice cream party a hundred percent. 00:33:18.635 --> 00:33:21.365 Like how big of a distraction that can be. 00:33:21.365 --> 00:33:21.845 So 00:33:21.870 --> 00:33:22.160 Sarah O: yeah. 00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:24.935 And so we would classify that as interference. 00:33:25.235 --> 00:33:25.325 Mm-hmm. 00:33:25.655 --> 00:33:34.415 And as a teacher and you send your students off to do something and you're like, oh wait, don't forget to, and so we actually, I'm so glad you brought that up. 00:33:34.415 --> 00:33:37.415 We specifically referenced that in the book and say. 00:33:37.850 --> 00:33:41.270 You need to get it all out and then leave them alone. 00:33:41.390 --> 00:33:46.250 Or you need to say, here are the directions for one and two, go do that and stop. 00:33:46.340 --> 00:33:53.660 And then, because I don't want you to have to remember too many directions and too much content, so we call anything that. 00:33:54.185 --> 00:33:56.885 Distracts or strain your executive functions. 00:33:56.885 --> 00:33:58.385 We call it interference. 00:33:58.385 --> 00:34:01.355 And that could be ambiguity like, I'm not sure what to do here. 00:34:01.355 --> 00:34:06.815 And so now I'm wasting kind of all of my faculties trying to figure it out instead of working on the learning goal. 00:34:07.505 --> 00:34:11.615 Um, and the antithesis of that being automaticity. 00:34:12.125 --> 00:34:15.110 So making sure that our students know exactly what to do. 00:34:16.060 --> 00:34:27.555 Um, and that they are fluent in any foundational skills that they're, that they are off doing their independent work and they know exactly what to do and they know that we're gonna pause and the rest. 00:34:28.445 --> 00:34:33.125 Will be given to me later so I don't have to carry that around on my plate. 00:34:33.335 --> 00:34:35.705 And kudos to you for being a student. 00:34:35.705 --> 00:34:36.635 That's amazing. 00:34:36.935 --> 00:34:48.845 I sometimes will go and just sit at one of the tables with my students and they're little tiny chairs and they don't have desks, they have tables and first of all, they just think it's like there's a celebrity sitting next to them 'cause they can't believe it. 00:34:48.845 --> 00:34:51.455 But I'm just like, oh wow. 00:34:51.485 --> 00:34:54.155 You just, just to be through their eyes is interesting. 00:34:54.155 --> 00:34:56.015 So I think that's incredible that you did that. 00:34:56.405 --> 00:34:57.215 I'll jump in. 00:34:58.475 --> 00:34:59.435 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, change of perspective. 00:34:59.440 --> 00:34:59.900 Helpful. 00:35:00.200 --> 00:35:00.500 Go ahead, 00:35:00.500 --> 00:35:00.620 Mitch Weathers: Mitch. 00:35:00.620 --> 00:35:01.020 Totally. 00:35:01.265 --> 00:35:01.595 Yeah. 00:35:01.595 --> 00:35:09.305 And some of the school leaders I admire, most that I've met and collaborated with over the years would do the same. 00:35:09.305 --> 00:35:16.805 Or they would teach a summer school class or they would do something to stay connected, though this is what it's like, but the kid experienced. 00:35:16.805 --> 00:35:30.780 But to your point, and I mentioned this earlier, we wrote this K 1 23, but as we were getting done as a. Secondary teacher, I was, oh, I wish in parentheses we could say, but it's also for everybody else because that's the case. 00:35:30.780 --> 00:35:34.020 But it all boils down to just these assumptions that we make. 00:35:34.020 --> 00:35:40.350 Like you're in ninth grade, I'm gonna give you all the instructions at once and expect you to go do this for 45 minutes. 00:35:40.710 --> 00:35:43.170 And that just rarely works. 00:35:43.395 --> 00:35:51.210 We all know that If you've spent any time in the classroom and it's these, oh, it's not more to do, it's again, it's those glasses. 00:35:51.210 --> 00:35:51.815 What if I did it? 00:35:53.015 --> 00:35:55.205 What if I like Sarah's saying, what if it was chunked? 00:35:55.205 --> 00:35:57.110 What if I like those? 00:35:57.115 --> 00:36:05.255 Those little adjustments make all the difference and it's, and I wanna keep saying that it's not something else for a teacher to do. 00:36:06.125 --> 00:36:08.790 It's a new way of seeing it that you won't unsee it. 00:36:09.864 --> 00:36:31.974 Mike Caldwell: How much of this, obviously knowing the science and the research that's in your book, but how much of this too is really empathy on the teacher side that prior to, or as part of my planning that I'm putting on my student hat and saying, how is this, how are these instructions going to be received? 00:36:32.124 --> 00:36:32.454 What are the. 00:36:33.729 --> 00:36:47.139 Potential distractions, roadblocks, confu, confusion, whatever it else, like how much of this is related to having that kind of empathetic view of your students' perspective? 00:36:48.309 --> 00:36:50.889 Sarah O: It's all about anticipation. 00:36:50.979 --> 00:36:55.804 I like the fact that you're identifying that as empathy, and of course we're doing this in the name of. 00:36:56.484 --> 00:36:57.894 Supporting our students. 00:36:57.984 --> 00:37:07.434 We're doing it because we want more efficiency, we want more success, but it is about knowing, oh, this is gonna be a problem. 00:37:07.464 --> 00:37:08.184 This is too much. 00:37:08.184 --> 00:37:10.374 I need to pause here, or I need to interject here, or. 00:37:11.244 --> 00:37:12.684 Oh, I put that right there. 00:37:12.744 --> 00:37:14.874 And that's gonna, they're gonna be stick. 00:37:14.874 --> 00:37:17.754 Like I got an Amazon delivery and they're all like, what's in the box? 00:37:17.754 --> 00:37:18.054 What's in? 00:37:18.054 --> 00:37:19.764 I'm like, oh man, I have to hide this thing. 00:37:19.764 --> 00:37:20.934 I gotta put this thing somewhere else. 00:37:20.934 --> 00:37:21.894 'cause they all know Amazon. 00:37:21.894 --> 00:37:24.174 They think it's, I'm like, look, it's pencils. 00:37:24.174 --> 00:37:24.954 Don't get excited. 00:37:25.374 --> 00:37:28.704 But it, the goal is we. 00:37:29.529 --> 00:37:34.719 We're preventing and things will happen and you'll be like, oh, I should've known. 00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:41.139 And some of that is content related things that come up that if you teach year after you realize this is gonna be a problem. 00:37:41.649 --> 00:37:56.739 Um, so it's not perfection of course, but it is certainly a way of just preserve saying, I, I, I understand you're in this boom of development and I'm gonna do what I can to harness whatever you have. 00:37:57.084 --> 00:37:59.874 For learning, so you're not here wasting it on. 00:38:00.174 --> 00:38:01.674 Oh, I'm desperately trying to pay attention. 00:38:01.704 --> 00:38:03.894 I'm desperately trying to reach that pencil sharpener. 00:38:03.894 --> 00:38:05.904 I'm trying to, and my friend is right. 00:38:05.934 --> 00:38:09.474 You put my friend right next to me and now you want me to pay attention to you. 00:38:09.654 --> 00:38:16.794 And all I wanna do is whisper to my friend and I'll tell my students, I will say to them, I just read that whole page. 00:38:16.824 --> 00:38:18.054 I have no idea what I read. 00:38:18.054 --> 00:38:18.744 I have to go back. 00:38:18.744 --> 00:38:19.944 I wasn't, I got distracted. 00:38:20.334 --> 00:38:25.254 Or we had a staff meeting this morning and I couldn't sit next to Mrs. Clark because I had to pay attention. 00:38:25.254 --> 00:38:35.334 I said, Mrs. Clark, I love you, but it's gonna be too hard for me to sit with you and really pay attention so they know this is not you're little and this is for you. 00:38:35.334 --> 00:38:39.234 This is about functioning as a human and controlling your. 00:38:40.374 --> 00:38:41.814 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, a hundred percent. 00:38:42.804 --> 00:38:50.544 Okay, so I'm a, let's pretend there's a K three or elementary principal listening right now. 00:38:51.084 --> 00:38:55.464 What, what are the top three things that you think that you would recommend that is maybe. 00:38:55.689 --> 00:39:05.379 Something they should audit as a school leader as they walk into classrooms related to, to environment, instruction, routines, however you want to put it. 00:39:05.379 --> 00:39:13.509 But what are some recommendations you would have for them to start as they're anticipating buying your book, but prior to that, what should they do? 00:39:16.899 --> 00:39:17.409 Mitch Weathers: I'll start. 00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:21.159 I want being the first grade teacher on the call. 00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:22.959 I definitely have some ideas, but. 00:39:25.299 --> 00:39:33.609 Sarah O: I think, as I mentioned before, the easiest thing to do is to just scan the room and you know, and. 00:39:34.359 --> 00:39:47.709 We're guilty of it and I was guilty of it, of just having a bunch of stuff to have it and we're gonna teach telling time in May, so I might as well go ahead and hang up this telling time poster right now 'cause it matches the colors in my room. 00:39:48.369 --> 00:39:48.759 But. 00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:50.249 Is it useful? 00:39:50.249 --> 00:39:50.879 Right now? 00:39:50.909 --> 00:39:51.389 No. 00:39:51.389 --> 00:39:55.679 And now my kids are looking at that because it's new, so their attention because we can't help it. 00:39:55.679 --> 00:40:05.489 Our attention is drawn to novel things and it's protective in nature, looking around and very respectfully. 00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:09.369 Thinking, I'm not gonna tell this teacher to strip the room. 00:40:09.369 --> 00:40:14.439 I'm not gonna tell them not to have, because then you're gonna get defensiveness and then you're not gonna get anywhere. 00:40:14.529 --> 00:40:18.339 But I'm gonna say, Hey, do you think we could put this over here? 00:40:18.699 --> 00:40:23.559 Or have you thought, do you notice your students like paying attention to that a lot? 00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:24.429 Things like that. 00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:25.899 The other thing is. 00:40:26.649 --> 00:40:28.989 Just disarray. 00:40:29.019 --> 00:40:37.179 Even in transitions, like when you notice that kids just don't seem to know what to do or there's a lack of order. 00:40:37.629 --> 00:40:43.449 And when I say order, I don't mean like control, but just things seem to run. 00:40:43.509 --> 00:40:48.519 If things don't seem to run well, that's always an indication that you're lacking a routine. 00:40:48.579 --> 00:40:54.759 You're lacking expectations and a routine, and you're leaving room for a ton of ambiguity. 00:40:54.789 --> 00:40:55.689 Which challenges? 00:40:55.989 --> 00:40:59.889 Something we haven't talked about much today, but cognitive flexibility. 00:41:00.189 --> 00:41:02.889 So I wanna get in line, it's time to go to art. 00:41:02.919 --> 00:41:15.069 We're gonna line up and we have three kids pushing and shoving for one spot and trying to navigate the compromise and the emotions and the rigidity of, no, I have to be here. 00:41:16.254 --> 00:41:24.564 If you have a routine in place for how that works, that eliminates the need for all of that guesswork and tension, things like that. 00:41:24.594 --> 00:41:32.694 When you walk into a room and it just seems like it's running like a well oiled machine, the kids aren't asking the teacher a hundred questions because they know. 00:41:33.474 --> 00:41:35.214 Where they put their paper when it's done. 00:41:35.454 --> 00:41:36.444 They know. 00:41:36.534 --> 00:41:40.194 They know what the expectations are, they know where to get things. 00:41:40.674 --> 00:41:45.534 I think that is an indication that there's a really well thought out routines. 00:41:45.804 --> 00:41:53.589 And when I still, of course, I still find things where I'm like, oh man, I obviously haven't set an expectation for that because. 00:41:54.429 --> 00:42:17.529 They get up from the carpet and they're whatever we, I say that to say we all, we'll continue to have things to improve on and I certainly don't have all the answers, but I think when you see, when you look at the physical space, when you see a teacher who's giving too much information, that you know, if you have to remember that information and then remember how to navigate the activity. 00:42:17.969 --> 00:42:21.179 That they're giving you to demonstrate that you've understood. 00:42:21.359 --> 00:42:27.209 Sometimes we assume that students aren't doing well, but it's not because they don't, they can't understand the content. 00:42:27.209 --> 00:42:30.539 It's because they're having trouble navigating the activity that you gave them. 00:42:30.809 --> 00:42:36.899 The directions were too much, or it's just too much diversity within the activity and you need to break it down. 00:42:37.349 --> 00:42:41.129 So that was a lot, but I don't think it's terribly complicated. 00:42:42.669 --> 00:42:49.779 In terms of as looking through the eyes of an administrator and being able to assess, is this, do I see that this is a need? 00:42:51.069 --> 00:42:51.279 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, for sure. 00:42:52.269 --> 00:42:58.899 Mitch Weathers: And I might encourage that school leader, Mike, maybe pick up a copy for yourself first and thumb through it. 00:42:58.899 --> 00:43:10.269 And I only say that because what Sarah and I have done throughout in both books actually, but we were very intentional about explaining this, like conceptually and then. 00:43:10.554 --> 00:43:17.514 Here's a practical, like real example from real classrooms and, and in some cases pictures. 00:43:17.874 --> 00:43:30.024 And we have a running example that we come back to throughout the book that illustrates what you might see in a classroom when this, the, these executive functioning glasses are put on. 00:43:30.414 --> 00:43:33.204 Even in how I deliver instructions, how I set up the room. 00:43:33.209 --> 00:43:39.894 And, and it's true and we very gently acknowledge that primary classrooms can have lots of decorations. 00:43:40.594 --> 00:43:48.484 Like it's just a thing like culturally, and you go into a high school classroom and it's rare to find a classroom that's like overly decorated, right? 00:43:48.484 --> 00:43:50.044 It's just they're different spaces. 00:43:50.044 --> 00:43:55.684 My mom taught second grade her entire career, and I used to go help set up the borders around every. 00:43:55.919 --> 00:44:00.719 Pinup board and then that had to have a special paper or plastic super color. 00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:08.129 And I just, a lot into Sarah's points, I have all this stuff because it's meant to be warm and inviting and you want that for little kids. 00:44:08.129 --> 00:44:26.979 But when we think about, okay, instruction and me, I just need your attention for these, this, these precious few minutes where I stand when I. Give that direct instruction, I can help ease the strain on their visual environment perhaps, or the idea of a noisy classroom is productive. 00:44:27.999 --> 00:44:35.709 Thinking about that, thinking about who's in the room and what's most fascinating to me about all this is it's all predicated on knowing the students in the room. 00:44:35.709 --> 00:44:38.739 You have to know the kids who are in the room. 00:44:38.769 --> 00:44:44.229 There's some generalizations we can make, there's no question about it, but also knowing specifically those. 00:44:44.499 --> 00:44:49.569 20 or 25 or whatever it is, kiddos sitting in your room can be really helpful. 00:44:50.754 --> 00:45:01.014 Sarah O: And I would love to just throw in that we do give examples in the book to contextualize like, okay, here's what that might look like for you, but we're very clear. 00:45:01.254 --> 00:45:02.694 This is not prescriptive. 00:45:03.114 --> 00:45:06.204 This is, what does this look like with your kids in classroom? 00:45:06.204 --> 00:45:16.884 Whether you teach music or you are a homeroom teacher of second grade, or you're, you're some kind of pullout service, here's an idea of what that might look like when it's applied. 00:45:17.814 --> 00:45:21.264 Go use that and apply it for however it works in your space. 00:45:21.294 --> 00:45:30.414 But we don't, we're not taking away any kind of agency and certainly don't want to think that this is a list of instructions for teachers. 00:45:34.794 --> 00:45:40.889 Mike Caldwell: So your book, would you say it's primarily targeted towards the classroom teacher, school leader? 00:45:42.069 --> 00:45:44.469 Could it also be like a parent resource? 00:45:44.709 --> 00:45:48.879 What, who do you think is the kind of primary audience for your book? 00:45:49.899 --> 00:45:53.679 Mitch Weathers: We, we wrote it for the teacher initially, no doubt. 00:45:53.949 --> 00:45:59.349 And wanted it to be not only for the teacher or the educator in the room, maybe is a better way to say. 00:45:59.349 --> 00:46:03.669 It doesn't have to be your role may be other than teacher. 00:46:04.269 --> 00:46:10.779 But what's really interesting and, and that was deliberate and we really wanted it to be for primary. 00:46:11.319 --> 00:46:21.699 Just to recognize, acknowledge, honor, how different the job is than what I ever did in middle school or high school, and I would argue upper elementary as well. 00:46:22.089 --> 00:46:23.769 And yet. 00:46:25.299 --> 00:46:29.649 It's absolutely for the school leader because it's not prescriptive, because it's not do this and this. 00:46:29.919 --> 00:46:38.619 So when we talk about really we consider cre, it's about crafting environments that lead to better executive functioning. 00:46:38.739 --> 00:46:40.629 And that's very context specific. 00:46:40.629 --> 00:46:43.449 It's grade level, it's age specific, all of that. 00:46:43.449 --> 00:46:44.859 But if I'm a school leader. 00:46:45.819 --> 00:46:47.499 My environment's just larger. 00:46:47.769 --> 00:46:48.519 It's the whole school. 00:46:48.519 --> 00:46:49.359 What's that mean? 00:46:49.449 --> 00:46:51.489 What are the lenses that I can put on? 00:46:51.579 --> 00:46:56.229 So I would say absolutely for school leaders and then just supporting the work happening in the classroom. 00:46:56.229 --> 00:47:04.479 Some of those shifts and when we get collective about it, meaning we're all doing it together, brings in a shared language, a shared understanding. 00:47:04.509 --> 00:47:06.519 That can be campus wide, it can be district wide. 00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:12.444 But surprisingly, I guess Sarah, I don't know if you would agree, but the book was sent out both from Corwin and then for. 00:47:13.029 --> 00:47:18.729 Folks that we respect to for pre-reads, give us your feedback, adjustments. 00:47:18.729 --> 00:47:21.399 We want really want this to be a special book. 00:47:22.059 --> 00:47:25.719 And it was really resonated with parents as well. 00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:32.854 So I would say it, it was written for the teachers, educators in the room, but absolutely school and district leaders and parents will benefit. 00:47:33.134 --> 00:47:36.219 And I'll keep saying it, I'm saying this all the time these days, Mike. 00:47:37.179 --> 00:47:40.209 Every secondary teacher listening to this pick, pick up a copy. 00:47:40.209 --> 00:47:43.269 I promise you, you'll, there'll be just those aha moments. 00:47:43.269 --> 00:48:06.129 I'm now convinced that every upper elementary, middle, high school teacher and college professor would benefit from spending half a day in a really gifted primary teacher's classroom because the intentionality in some, I have had days where I give kids this well-designed activity, I give them some instructions, and I do set 'em loose for a majority of the class period, and it, it works. 00:48:06.564 --> 00:48:11.484 I'm there and I'm helping and but that intentionality, that primary has to have. 00:48:11.484 --> 00:48:14.334 Sarah, so many times in writing this book was like, we don't have to say that. 00:48:14.394 --> 00:48:14.964 I'm like, really? 00:48:15.654 --> 00:48:17.574 She's, it's literally the air we breathe. 00:48:17.574 --> 00:48:24.744 Well actually it'll feel like I'm talking down to a teacher if I say that and I'll be like, oh, okay, we had to make these adjustments. 00:48:24.744 --> 00:48:26.394 So it's, I really mean it. 00:48:26.394 --> 00:48:28.764 And that sounds so self-serving 'cause it's our book. 00:48:28.764 --> 00:48:32.484 But I really mean, I mean it, that's the mission behind. 00:48:33.129 --> 00:48:37.509 This particular book, so I hope people pick it up and give it a read. 00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:46.749 Sarah O: And Mike, I'd love to give you and your listeners a quick anecdote for how this might be beneficial for school leaders, not just classroom teachers. 00:48:46.884 --> 00:48:47.454 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, please do. 00:48:47.554 --> 00:48:47.934 Sarah O: My school 00:48:47.994 --> 00:48:48.214 Mike Caldwell: is, 00:48:48.729 --> 00:48:50.109 Sarah O: yeah, my school is wonderful. 00:48:50.109 --> 00:48:50.649 I love it. 00:48:50.649 --> 00:48:53.199 I'll give all the dis disclaimers ahead of time. 00:48:53.954 --> 00:48:58.239 But our floors and our hallways are like checkerboard. 00:48:58.239 --> 00:48:59.739 The tiles are like checkerboard. 00:49:00.684 --> 00:49:11.274 So now you have kindergartners, first graders, second graders, and you're telling them to walk in a straight line and all they wanna do is hopscotch along these, or they're like, don't touch the green. 00:49:11.664 --> 00:49:14.664 And I'm like, whoever did this strangle. 00:49:14.664 --> 00:49:18.654 Because I'm like, clearly you don't know children. 00:49:18.894 --> 00:49:21.564 You should have just, everybody should be consulting. 00:49:21.564 --> 00:49:25.584 So it was funny, we had our head facilities, people in looking at our school. 00:49:26.289 --> 00:49:33.339 Which at the time was the newest elementary in the district, and they were working on building another elementary, and they were walking around our building and I said, I pulled 'em aside. 00:49:33.339 --> 00:49:34.689 I said, Hey, you see these floors? 00:49:34.689 --> 00:49:35.799 Don't do that. 00:49:36.159 --> 00:49:36.729 Don't do that. 00:49:36.729 --> 00:49:39.639 Because these, that's what they see, hopscotch. 00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:40.689 They see a game. 00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:41.924 And yet here we are saying. 00:49:43.194 --> 00:49:45.864 Walk in a straight line, self to self. 00:49:46.344 --> 00:49:50.274 And we're really making it very hard for them to be able to do that. 00:49:50.274 --> 00:49:55.464 And that's a lot of SelfControl that they have to manifest in that case. 00:49:55.464 --> 00:50:00.504 So we are, in that case, challenging their ex, their developing executive functions. 00:50:01.224 --> 00:50:01.404 Mike Caldwell: Adults 00:50:01.704 --> 00:50:02.779 Mitch Weathers: see the same on the floor. 00:50:02.779 --> 00:50:02.789 Right? 00:50:03.534 --> 00:50:06.054 They may not feel as free to start hopscotching. 00:50:06.114 --> 00:50:06.324 It's 00:50:06.624 --> 00:50:06.834 Mike Caldwell: worth 00:50:06.834 --> 00:50:07.224 Mitch Weathers: pointing 00:50:07.284 --> 00:50:07.344 Mike Caldwell: out. 00:50:07.344 --> 00:50:07.614 Yeah. 00:50:09.504 --> 00:50:11.574 I'm gonna, I'm gonna definitely pick up a copy. 00:50:11.574 --> 00:50:14.364 I think it's, I'm excited to read it. 00:50:14.364 --> 00:50:16.974 I love the analogy of looking at it through. 00:50:18.024 --> 00:50:20.304 Through lenses or a change in lens. 00:50:20.304 --> 00:50:25.134 It reminds me of years and years ago when augmented reality first came out. 00:50:25.134 --> 00:50:37.464 Remember there was this app that you could look through the kind of picture of your phone and depending on what you're looking at, like there was maybe this building, you're downtown and this building has an advertisement. 00:50:37.464 --> 00:50:40.674 It's this augmented reality that's built into this application. 00:50:40.674 --> 00:50:43.374 But you're looking at something, but you're seeing. 00:50:43.634 --> 00:50:46.544 A layer data or information on top of it. 00:50:46.544 --> 00:50:59.234 And what I'm imagining with this knowledge from this book is when I look in my hall hallway, I'm gonna see it differently with this lens because I'm gonna see, oh yeah, those checkered tiles are a distraction. 00:50:59.234 --> 00:51:09.524 Or I'm gonna walk into a classroom and I'm not just seeing it filled front for this warm and fuzzy environment feeling it's, oh, I see the distractions that this could cause for students. 00:51:09.614 --> 00:51:10.784 So I love it. 00:51:10.874 --> 00:51:13.004 This is really, um. 00:51:13.749 --> 00:51:14.619 Almost an hour. 00:51:14.619 --> 00:51:16.029 I, we could go another hour. 00:51:16.029 --> 00:51:18.309 I would love to learn more and talk more. 00:51:18.309 --> 00:51:24.819 You guys are a wealth of knowledge, but instead, let's send people to to your book so they can find it on Amazon. 00:51:24.819 --> 00:51:33.339 The title is Executive Functions for Every K through Three Classroom, promoting Self-Regulation For a Strong Start, Mitch Weathers and Sarah Oberly. 00:51:33.789 --> 00:51:35.859 And right now you can pre-order. 00:51:35.859 --> 00:51:36.459 Is that right? 00:51:36.459 --> 00:51:37.689 When does it become available? 00:51:39.594 --> 00:51:45.054 Mitch Weathers: It's gonna be in the flesh in two weeks towards the end of March. 00:51:45.114 --> 00:51:50.814 I forget the exact date, but yeah, like I think it's the 23rd fourth, something like, like that. 00:51:50.904 --> 00:51:52.734 Yeah, it got bumped up by a month. 00:51:52.854 --> 00:51:59.404 Sarah and I will be speaking at Learning in the Brain in April in New York, and our goal was, we really wanted it. 00:52:00.294 --> 00:52:05.664 In person there and that we, we just got news this week that it's gonna be out about a month early. 00:52:05.664 --> 00:52:11.994 You can also order directly from Corwin with free shipping, both, and it's still pre-order Amazon Corwin. 00:52:12.234 --> 00:52:15.669 I would just check both and go with what you prefer. 00:52:17.349 --> 00:52:23.319 Mike Caldwell: We'll drop a link into the show notes for this podcast so people can find that and order directly. 00:52:23.349 --> 00:52:25.419 I'll put in whatever link you guys prefer. 00:52:25.989 --> 00:52:33.549 Uh, before we break, Sarah, Mitch, anything else you'd like to leave maybe that we didn't ask, that you'd like to share before we wrap up? 00:52:35.739 --> 00:52:44.289 Sarah O: I think just one of the big goals was this in general, one of mine, and I forced Mitch to agree to this goal was to. 00:52:44.814 --> 00:52:51.084 Have primary teachers be seen and be recognized that we need our own content. 00:52:51.444 --> 00:52:57.834 We cannot relate, and there's no one-to-one correlation between the example you're giving a high school teacher and us. 00:52:57.894 --> 00:53:04.824 So we felt, hey, and I'm the audience for this book, you know, myself and my colleagues. 00:53:04.824 --> 00:53:05.904 So I wrote it for. 00:53:06.594 --> 00:53:20.334 Myself, my classroom, my kids, my experience knowing that we desperately need this and we hope that all of the primary teachers that read it feel appreciated and feel seen and that it is helpful in some way. 00:53:21.294 --> 00:53:22.014 Mitch Weathers: Fantastic. 00:53:22.284 --> 00:53:23.969 Well, only thing that I'll add to that, Mike. 00:53:23.969 --> 00:53:24.209 Yeah. 00:53:24.969 --> 00:53:37.779 It will be helpful, not if they find, I promise you, you will find this insightful, but reach out to Sarah and I. We'll put our contact both our websites, sarah oberly.com, amit organized binder.com. 00:53:37.779 --> 00:53:41.394 We'd love to hear from you if you have questions, comments, if you love the book. 00:53:42.144 --> 00:53:42.924 Tell us about it. 00:53:42.924 --> 00:53:48.264 That's always nice to hear, but we're here to support you in that journey. 00:53:48.264 --> 00:53:59.874 And one of, one of the things that was most fun and continues starting another one in April is book studies with cohorts, whether that be a school or a district, or even like county level, any of that. 00:53:59.874 --> 00:54:06.084 We would love to be supporting you in the journey of learning about Corey F's with this book. 00:54:06.084 --> 00:54:06.354 So. 00:54:06.919 --> 00:54:07.729 Reach out to us. 00:54:09.229 --> 00:54:09.559 Mike Caldwell: Awesome. 00:54:09.559 --> 00:54:13.489 And we'll make sure we put your respective websites on those show notes as well. 00:54:13.759 --> 00:54:14.209 Awesome. 00:54:14.509 --> 00:54:18.769 Mitch, Sarah, thank you so much for one, putting this book together. 00:54:18.769 --> 00:54:22.249 I know it, it was not a easy journey, but I'm excited that you're. 00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:25.049 To a point where it can launch and people could start reading it. 00:54:25.379 --> 00:54:26.789 All the work that you put into it. 00:54:27.089 --> 00:54:28.739 And thanks for this conversation today. 00:54:29.129 --> 00:54:31.649 I learned a lot and I'm sure our listeners did as well. 00:54:32.009 --> 00:54:33.629 And I'm looking forward to reading your book. 00:54:33.629 --> 00:54:34.649 So thanks. 00:54:34.654 --> 00:54:35.144 Thanks Mike. 00:54:35.144 --> 00:54:41.939 And for those of you joining us, thanks for another, for joining us for another episode of Transformative Principle and we'll see you at the next one. 00:54:42.779 --> 00:54:43.469 Sarah O: Thanks, Mike. 00:54:44.189 --> 00:54:44.549 Mike Caldwell: Thank you.