Mike Caldwell: All right.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal Podcast.
My name is Mike Klum, your host today.
And joining me, Mitch Weathers and Sarah Oberly.
Mitch.
Sarah, welcome.
Sarah O: Thanks for having us.
Mitch Weathers: Glad to be here, Mike.
Thanks for having us.
Mike Caldwell: We're gonna get into the work that you guys have done together.
Really important work book, getting close to launching this next month, but it's always helpful to start with a little bit of context on your journey, on how you got here, how we got here.
So I. This is Two, two Rivers emerging to create something special in this book.
I don't know which one of you want to start.
Maybe I'll start with Sarah, give a little bit of your background.
She's pushing it over to, to, to Mitch.
But Sarah, I'm gonna start with you anyway.
You can give us a little bit of your background, uh, or a lot of your background where, wherever you want to go, and then you can kick it over to Mitch when you're ready.
Sarah O: Sounds good.
Uh, I am a first grade teacher.
This is my 18th year teaching first grade, and several years ago, actually, right when COVID started, I decided to go back to school and pursue a doctorate.
And in the process of that and doing some studies and learning about some things, I stumbled across Mitch Weathers and listened to one of his.
Podcast about executive functioning and I was heavily studying working memory at the time for my school, for my schoolwork, and working memory being very, being one of the core executive functions.
I was so curious to hear more from him, and I was so impressed that there was someone out there who was thinking about executive function in the context of tier one.
Because I'm a general education teacher, I certainly have special education students, but the only time in my career that EPS has come up has been when we're talking about like a psychoeducational evaluation when we're talking an IEP.
Very long story short, I reached out to Mitch and eventually we connected and I just said, I said, we need this for, 'cause his original book was grades three to 12.
And I said, but we so desperately need this.
In the primary years, this is our all day, every day.
And if we can't get over this hump, then there's no content to be learned until we can get them to pay attention, until we can get them to keep them, their hands to themselves, all of these things.
Mitch and I stayed in touch for a few years and did some work together here and there, and became friends, and I had finished school and some other big projects and.
Mitch was coming off the first year of success of his first book and he said, we, let's write this book for the primary years.
And I said, let's do it.
So here we are.
Mike Caldwell: Fantastic.
Mitch, can you corroborate on all that?
Is that all mostly true?
Mitch Weathers: Most of that's true, Mike.
I'm not, I can't quote all of it, but no, it, she left out a few key points.
Yes, it was.
Sarah reached out and then invited me to participate in a conference, a research ed conference.
She was not only finishing her doctoral work.
Teaching full-time.
She's a wife and a mom of two and she decided to organize and host a conference all at the same time and invited me two years ahead of time.
So here's the part she left out is she reached out, and it is true, she said, you're talking about executive functions in tier one for all kids.
And she was really passionate about translating a program I designed called Organized Binder into Primary.
And so we did, we became friends and we'd meet and we'd talk and plan, and she had.
Asked me two years ahead of time, Hey, I'm organizing this conference.
It's not till 2024, and I really think your voice needs to be there.
Would you come and participate?
I can't pay you a speaker fee or cover your travel.
What do you think?
Oh, by the way, the conference is in Delaware and you're in California.
And Sarah being as charming as she is.
But of course I agreed.
I thought it would be really fun.
And I'd say all that to say I, I got to participate, but I also got to sit in on Sarah's talks at this event and I had just never heard a more succinct, and I don't think anyone will, when they read this book, a more succinct explanation of working memory and cognitive load, and in particular to her.
Context of those primary years that I was just blown away and she'd mentioned my first book.
I focused primarily on grades three through 12.
'cause I felt that was, I wanted it to be very authentic and genuine.
And I have spent time, my career teaching in middle school and high school.
And then with my work collaborating with districts and schools I've worked with.
Middle, upper elementary as well.
So I really felt like I could speak authentically to those grade bands.
But what I knew I couldn't do is speak to the primary years because it's just so different.
And so when I heard Sarah speak, it didn't dawn on me.
I realized, oh, there's something there.
But the feedback, the impetus for me when I texted Sarah and said, Hey, I got an idea.
You got a second?
Uh, let's jump on a phone call.
I was going to pick up my youngest daughter from school.
Mike, the overwhelming like feedback from primary teachers was kind of like, what about us?
We love this book.
We're part of this book study, but it doesn't, and it shouldn't have fit for what we do.
There's things I can glean from it, and that's great, but it's not written for us in our context because it's just so different and it's really important to make that distinction.
And Corwin was asking, Hey, what do you think about writing another book?
And this first one was well received.
And at first I was like, never, I'm never doing that again.
That was a horrible, painful, arduous process that I'm not very good at, and I'm glad it's well received.
But I, I'm gonna get back to my work with organized binder, but I just had this nagging feeling of, this work needs to be out there.
It doesn't exist yet.
This book that Sarah and I wrote and just felt that call.
So I texted, we jumped on the phone and she said, sure.
And.
We reached out to Corwin and they loved the idea, and here we are.
What, like a year and a half later talking to you.
Mike Caldwell: Fantastic.
Mitch Weathers: Yeah.
That's the full story.
Mike Caldwell: I love it.
Yeah, it brings it all together.
Sarah, I'm curious for you, your first grade teacher, but at some point you decided to kind of go deep into the executive functioning and really become an an expert in that area.
What was the.
Can you pinpoint the catalyst moment for you?
It's like, when did that become one of the most important things for you to, to focus on?
Sarah O: So a lot of what I do has to do with literacy.
Of course, being a first grade teacher, I'm teaching my students how to read.
And I would say probably 10 or so years into teaching, I started to notice the same problems over and over with kids that were struggling.
And I just desperately wanted to understand why, because as teachers we're given, well, here's an intervention that you can facilitate, but we never.
It's never really explained to us like what's breaking down, what's going on.
And I um, have always been someone that likes to know the behind the scenes, wants to know how the parts are working and not working.
It was really, that was when the science of reading was just waking up, was just getting going.
And I was fascinated by some of the research that was being translated about reading instruction and how learning to read happens.
What's actually happening in your mind when you learn to read.
However, literacy by itself is not my passion.
Um, I say that carefully.
As a first grade teacher, I was more agnostic in terms of, I just am fascinated by learning in general, how we pay attention, how we remember things, what motivates us.
And so I, I think.
While reading got me interested in the cognitive science behind learning, it was really when I went to school, my focus, it initially was on educational neuroscience, but I found out very quickly that was not necessarily helpful for practice and I really wanted to make sure that what I was doing was gonna benefit.
Teachers in the classroom, uh, in terms of making research about how learning happens accessible and relevant for teachers.
So what can we extract from the research that's going to be useful for us in the classroom?
Um, so that's what.
Got my wheels turning initially, but I appreciate this, these topics, because it doesn't matter what you're teaching, it doesn't matter who you're teaching.
It's like I've said before, this is just being human is having executive functions, and so how can we harness this knowledge to help our students be success?
Mike Caldwell: Thank you for that.
So, Mitch, so much of your work prior to this project was around the organized binder, and you said that's really targeted grades three and above.
Mm-hmm.
So can you give us, for the, for our listeners, like maybe what, just give us a little bit of a base on where the organized, what the organized binder is, who it's for, and then how that translates to the work that you're doing now with Sarah on this book.
Mitch Weathers: Sure.
Yeah.
Organized binder became a thing in my classroom.
It was a program I designed.
I didn't necessarily have the language or the terminology to say, I am gonna design this thing that supports the development of executive functions over time.
The only reason it's called Organized binder is my kids.
Students, many of them for the first time were getting and staying organized and they were really proud of their binder.
Spent most of my career in ninth grade working with multi-language learners.
Met a large title one comprehensive public high school out here in Northern California.
And it was quite the transformation for them to the point that so much so that other teachers started showing up to my classroom asking, Hey, what's going on in here?
Because I'm working with the same kids and.
We're not finding any success and they keep talking about this binder in your class and how they love it, and that was just the kind of spark in some ways.
My school adopted the program, not my choice.
Voted grassroots by all the teachers in ninth grade.
Everybody adopted this.
Binder system, this organized binder, and for the first time I found myself one kind of in a quasi study seeing this program that's really.
Content and grade level agnostic, but seeing it in different contexts, different learning environments, all the same grade level, ninth grade.
And also finding myself in, um, professional development role, but with your own colleagues, which can be a little weird.
50 miles makes an expert and this is all homegrown and, but, so it was just a really interesting learning time for me.
And then it just, that just kept replicating to the point where I had to figure out, okay, how do I start to like.
Meaningfully React, respond and serve schools, and then it became districts that were reaching out.
Curious about This program ultimately led to me writing my first book that came out in 24, because the number of teachers and parents that would write in through the organized binder website asking for, Hey, can I bring this to my classroom?
Or can do this with a kid?
And as a fellow teacher, I've never.
We don't sell the program to individual teachers because there's a student materials component, there's training, there's support, all that.
I just morally am opposed to that, but in the same kind of spirit, like how do I, how do I show up for folks who write in instead of saying, we don't sell it to individuals.
That's not what you want to hear.
So I did my best with the first book to write.
Okay, so if you weren't.
Working with us, you didn't have the training and support, you didn't have the materials component, which really matter in those grade bands.
And my kind of promise to the readers, I'll get you 80% of the way there all by yourself reading this book.
So in, in some ways it's all of the strategies in inherent to this program.
It's really about more than anything, creating.
Really predictable learning environments, and as a byproduct of engaging in a predictable daily routine, students get practiced doing these executive functions, practicing them, seeing them getting messy with it, but all mixed up in the content of the grade level or the subject.
But as I mentioned, so you asked like, how does that.
Translate to the work doing with Sarah.
We spent a couple years trying sent her, I sent her an organized binder and she was sitting in her classroom on lunch and we're going through it and she's like, this is great.
This isn't gonna work for my first graders.
It's just not gonna work Like the, it's not, it's not appropriate.
And that was the journey of this book is saying, okay, we think so my original kind of.
Brainchild, if you will.
Mike was okay.
We have this first book, it's mentioned it.
It's been really well received, great feedback all over the world.
We can use that as this roadmap in some ways, like chapter outlines, topics to get us a starting point for book two.
And it took us probably what, Sarah, a couple months of trying that and meeting and writing and talking and meeting and, and to finally get to a place, and I think it was Sarah Morino that was like breaking the news to me like.
This isn't gonna work.
We got, we have to start fresh.
It's a completely different context.
Yes, it's still executive functions, but we're focusing on what's known as the core executive functions.
Whereas the, my first book and organized binders were about higher order executive functioning.
And there the distinction exists there, Mike, because of the developmental process in humans, as Sarah was saying, and so that the core executive functions are really appropriate for the primary years, and you'll see it in the book.
The second book that we wrote, there's overlap with both Core and higher order, right?
So there's things to learn, and I believe every teacher, not just primary teachers and parents will benefit from the book.
Sarah and I wrote, but it so it, it, the initial work led to it.
But there was a point where we had to say, okay, we're not scrapping all of that.
But it's not a direct, we're not just gonna translate it into K 1 23.
And just real quick for the record, we get asked this question quite a bit.
You have one book that's K through three and you have a book that's three through 12.
Why is three show up in both?
And it really is like in our, at least in the US context in terms of that glos grade, see that grade sequence?
Third grade's kind of this interesting inflection point that can lean.
Closer to primary, more second grade, or it can lean fourth grade depending on who the learners are in the room, who the teacher is.
Just that context.
But there's also something there that happens often unspoken.
Is this kind of expectation or assumption that you're starting to become a more independent learner.
Ended moving into fourth grade and then fifth grade in some districts, like fifth grade's, kind of the start of middle school.
Others it's sixth and then some, it's seventh.
So we, we chose to overlap those on purpose with both books.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
You alluded to my next question and maybe Sarah, I'll kick this over to you.
Let's maybe take a minute to define the terms or go a little bit.
Under the hood here.
When you talk about executive functions, and you mentioned core versus higher order, can you elaborate kind of what you mean by core versus higher order for audience, and then maybe elaborate a little bit on why does that distinction matter specifically for K through three?
Sarah O: So executive functions are an interrelated network of cognitive processes that we use to pay attention to achieve a goal, to remember what we need to remember to demonstrate self-control in inhibit some of our reflexes.
All of those things are manifested through our executive functions.
There are six separate.
I say separate.
They're very interconnected.
But we'll talk about six different cognitive processes that are, that fall under the executive function umbrella.
And those six are divided into two groups.
We have the core, which is what this book that we're talking about, um, is about.
The core executive functions are working memory inhibition and cognitive flexibility.
And then you have the higher order, which are born out of.
The successful collaboration, I'll say, and development of the core executive functions.
And those are problem solving, planning, and reasoning.
Um, the reason why we focused on the three core is because, um, between the ages of four and eight, that's when these cognitive processes are really developing.
As if you're a kindergarten teacher, you're not necessarily.
Expecting or worried about your student's ability to reason, but you are concerned with their ability to not act on every impulse.
You are concerned with their ability to pay attention and how much, how long?
What can I do to help them pay attention?
How long should I expect them to pay attention?
How much can I expect them to remember?
And what are some factors that might be undermining their ability to remember in the classroom that.
I'm not aware of, but maybe if I knew about this, I would say, oh, this is actually, I'm running upstream here.
There's some things I can do.
I can just subtly adjust to support my students wherever they are.
And to be clear, we're not trying to teach our students executive functions.
They're not something that you can teach.
They are cognitive processes.
They develop on their own.
We're not trying to force any development.
We are saying with this book, we think that you deserve to know about this because it's relevant to what you do, and we want you to be able to preserve whatever your students come to you with for learning and not waste some of that cognitive bandwidth on.
Distractions or peer relationships that scenarios with peer relationships that can siphon off some of these, some of the capacity that we want to be saved for learning.
And those things sneak in very easily and quickly and you start to see these little, these sort of attention robbers, if you will, things that make it harder for our students to, to be successful in the classroom.
Mike Caldwell: So I wanna zero in on something I heard, and just to make sure I understand that for our audience as well.
I think sometimes as educators, we think we see things within our students, such as their ability to organize or stay organized or the ability to follow through on, on, on things as necessarily personality traits, but like they're built in who based on their character, personality, or whatever else, can you.
Reframe executive functioning skills as teachable development capacities, or did I hear you say that you can't really develop, or you're not, your book is not really focused on developing those.
Can you tease that out a little bit as, do we just inherit these and or just deal with them?
Or how do you help your students develop those?
Sarah O: So we're not trying to, to be fair, what we're trying to do is say, I know that developmentally you are here, and because of that, I'm going to create a context and environment for you that.
That does not test the limited development, develop developed executive functions that you have working memory being one of the core executive functions.
There's working memory training programs and people that'll be happy to take your money and say, we're gonna increase your working memory.
Um, those programs do not.
Generalize so you'll get better.
Your working memory will get better on doing that exact task.
If it's sequencing or sequencing shapes, you're gonna get better at sequencing shapes.
You're not gonna get better at remembering directions, remembering content to complete an activity or whatever it is that you want the ultimate goal to be.
So we're not forcing, um.
Our students.
It's not like we're gonna say, and I use this example, I'm not trying to make them get taller, right?
That's happening.
It's just happening and it's gonna happen on its own.
But I'm trying to create an environment that respects the fact that they're kinda little, and so my environment needs to honor that and not put things way up high where they can't really reach it or where it's gonna just make things harder for them.
Does that answer your question?
Mitch Weathers: Yeah, and can I jump into Mike on that?
Go ahead, Mitch.
You Yeah, you're right Mo like it.
It's an interesting
conversation, I guess you'd say, is when you think of executive functions, they are these cognitive processes.
We know in the brain where they're happening.
We know like generally when they're developing into our mid.
Even late twenties if you follow the research.
And that's really interesting and it really is.
But in terms of the practitioner, what's that mean for me in the classroom?
And that's where the distinction between core and higher order really come into play.
'cause we look at core executive functions, working memory, it's like active.
Place in our brain, which really is kinda the engine for learning and my ability to pay attention.
And it's not like necessarily a skill that's manifesting from that working memory.
It's the capacity we're trying to really preserve or protect.
'cause it's finite.
There's only so much.
And what we know from the research is to Sarah's point.
You have what you have and you're not gonna grow it like strengthening a muscle or something like that.
So because it's finite, we want to shape environments, our instruction, our routines, so that I'm not using working memory capacity to try to keep up or navigate the classroom or figure out what I'm supposed to be doing.
We wanna use that.
Engine for self-regulation, for learning, et cetera.
Inhibition, same kind of thing.
Second core, ef, where can I inhibit my own internal feelings and what's going on the external and what, how can we craft environments that help with that?
Recognizing we can't do a whole lot with the internal often.
And then cognitive flexibility or shifting that, can I adjust if the routine doesn't go as planned?
'cause sometimes we have those.
So a lot of the point of.
This book and what Sarah was just saying is like, we've been talking a lot about like putting on a, an executive function, core executive function, pair of glasses and looking at the spaces we curate as teachers and are they.
Contributing to cognitive load, which is taxing work and memory or not.
Are there ways in which you can adjust the things you're already doing, which is good news for teachers because it's not something else to do.
It's just looking at your instruction, looking at your routines through a different lens.
Where you hear executive functioning skills that really does a higher order are also these cognitive processes, but the behaviors that are manifesting in those grades from the higher order executive function development can be translated into skills like organization and goal, goal-oriented behavior, time and task management, self-regulation.
All things that are relevant to first grade, right and primary years.
But that third grade, that assumption or the expectation by the time you get to me in ninth grade is you're in ninth grade or when you get to college.
It's really interesting working with colleges, with my work at Organized Binder.
'cause you're in college now.
You're supposed to be able to do that, that expectation.
And when you hear that, you really are talking about behaviors you should know to do that.
You're in ninth grade.
But those behaviors, those skills and habits do manifest or stem from the honing and development of these executive functions.
So it's, it gets mixed up and we've made a point very clearly, especially with the core, you have to say that they're actually like working memory is not a skill that you're going to train up in a student.
And when you start to recognize that, it's really interesting with this book is.
Once you see it, you can't unsee it.
You, you won't see your classroom the same.
You won't see your instructions, your routines, the acoustic environment, the furniture, everything.
You see it differently.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
If that
Mitch Weathers: helps.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
Between what both of you said, it helps a ton.
It's really, as opposed to thinking these as skills to develop, it's really looking at these.
Executive functions through the lens of, as you mentioned, environment, instruction, and routines.
And I love the analogy or the comparison, Sarah, that you made with, if someone was, you're, you're built this classroom for somebody that was super tall and the things that they had, the pencil sharpener is six feet off the ground as opposed to two feet off the ground or three feet off the ground.
That's.
Something you can control based on the person's height.
So can you talk a little bit about maybe what does this mean in practice for when you think about this through the lens of environment instruction or routines?
Can you give a couple kind of tangible examples of what this might look like?
Sarah O: Yeah, absolutely.
And I wanna, I always wanna be clear that the book is really meant to share information.
It's from the research, but it's not.
We're not trying to impress anybody.
We're trying to give information that's valid and scientifically accurate, but only in service of supporting practice.
So it's very practical and it is not, it's not lessons you have to teach.
It's not something that, it's not something else to do.
This is just here, take this knowledge and use it in your classroom in however way fit some of the examples.
The most tangible example would be related to the classroom environment.
So along the lines of, look, if you want your kids to be having pencil sharp, there are two sharp pencils at the start of the day, and you put the pencil sharpener way up high, you're making it harder for them to fulfill your expectations.
Attention is a very resource heavy.
Cognitive demand.
And so when we in our classrooms are putting visual distractions around the room, particularly novel ones, like you're changing things out.
Maybe it's seasonal, maybe it's student work, that it's changing.
It's very hard for your students to not look and focus and think about these things.
And so we would never tell a primary teacher.
Do not have a lovely, comfy, warm, fuzzy classroom at all.
What we say in the book is if there's a particular visual field that you want your students to be looking at, meaning there's an area, there's a space in the room where you want their attention, do not have the supplies for the ice cream party right next to it because what are they gonna be looking at and now not realizing the struggle that they're having.
Um, to filter out the stuff that they're not supposed to be looking at.
That would be hard for an adult, let alone a child.
So attention is actively paying attention, but it is also filtering out what you should not be paying attention to, being able to discriminate relevance, and so.
We ask our kids to do that a lot and we don't realize it.
Hang up student work in a place that is in a part of the room that doesn't interf or compete with when you're giving instruction where you want them to be looking because you're making it harder for them.
It's like dangling the carrot and saying to the horse and saying, but don't look at that.
Don't think about that.
And then you're just, you have it in their line of sight.
Um, so I would say environment is probably the most tangible.
When people ask, give an example.
Instruction wise, we have the utmost respect for pacing schedules and we know that you have to get done what you have to get done, and a lot is out of your hands there.
What we talk about is how to pause within your lessons, um, how to give independent activities, give the instructions a little bit at a time.
Probably much.
Break it down much more than you normally would, and it's not adding time, it's just dividing the time differently.
We talk about how to give directions a specific way to be you.
Like the less the fewer words pos or possible, the better being succinct.
Our students, a lot of them can't read, so we can't just like a middle school teacher, throw the directions up on the board and we certainly have visuals, but.
There's things that you can do, there's ways that you can place things that make it, that, that ease the strain on our students' visual search, which taxes, working memory, um, and that reduces the demands on their.
Inhibitory processes.
The other areas we talked about environment, which I find instruction, uh, routines.
So obviously primary teachers all know that routines are important.
I don't have to tell anybody that, but you can be very purposeful with the routines that you create.
And sometimes we need to set up routines within our routines because the expectation is do this and this, and it's, we do this every day.
What's the problem?
And it's because it's just too much at once.
The no matter how many days in a row you do it, the expectation is just too much.
So if you can break it up, go do this and this.
Okay, check it off.
Now we wipe the slate clean so your mind starts fresh.
Okay?
Now here's my next three tasks.
Again, it's nothing that you have to change or add to your teaching.
It's just knowledge that you can use to professionalize your decision making, and you'll start to see it in yourself as well.
You'll start to notice, oh my, I didn't even realize I heard a noise, and I turn right to it.
If adults do that, think about your six year olds and think about what that does when they're trying desperately to complete an independent task or to pay attention to you and talk to their neighbor.
So.
I think, you know, it starts to become the pair of glasses that you wear all the time in addition to all the other glasses that we wear, right?
So those are just a few examples and we have scenarios in the book and we have many more charts that talk about different ways that you can mitigate certain things and um, but the whole idea is to be preventative.
Mike Caldwell: I love that and I think all the things that you shared, I think if you've, you know, been in a classroom and or your school leader listening to this, it's very practical stuff when you peel it back and it triggers for me a memory.
So I was high school, so this doesn't.
Your context is a little bit different than my experience, but like I, I spent a day as a student shadow one, one day I just wanted to go experience my school from the lens of a student for a full day, and so threw on the backpack.
A student agreed to adopt me for the day, so I went to all of her classes for the entire day.
And as I was going through that experience, it was a wonderful experience.
If you're a school leader out there, I highly recommend it, um, because it does change your lens on how you view things when you're sitting in a desk all day or you're taking notes and things like that.
But one of my big takeaways that I reported back to my faculty, um, after going through this was how many times we were.
Told maybe, okay, go read this assignment or go read these instructions, et cetera, and so forth, where we were sent to go do, but the teacher continued to instruct and give information and like.
It just kept going and it's, am I supposed to pay attention and start or start reading here or am I supposed to pay attention to you or both?
And I was completely just distracted by it.
And, and so that was my big takeaway.
So when you're talking about like those things that maybe we do unintentionally or not paying attention to it, that's what kind of drew experience for me in at the high school level.
So I would imagine.
First grade or whatever you talked about the supplies for the ice cream party a hundred percent.
Like how big of a distraction that can be.
So
Sarah O: yeah.
And so we would classify that as interference.
Mm-hmm.
And as a teacher and you send your students off to do something and you're like, oh wait, don't forget to, and so we actually, I'm so glad you brought that up.
We specifically referenced that in the book and say.
You need to get it all out and then leave them alone.
Or you need to say, here are the directions for one and two, go do that and stop.
And then, because I don't want you to have to remember too many directions and too much content, so we call anything that.
Distracts or strain your executive functions.
We call it interference.
And that could be ambiguity like, I'm not sure what to do here.
And so now I'm wasting kind of all of my faculties trying to figure it out instead of working on the learning goal.
Um, and the antithesis of that being automaticity.
So making sure that our students know exactly what to do.
Um, and that they are fluent in any foundational skills that they're, that they are off doing their independent work and they know exactly what to do and they know that we're gonna pause and the rest.
Will be given to me later so I don't have to carry that around on my plate.
And kudos to you for being a student.
That's amazing.
I sometimes will go and just sit at one of the tables with my students and they're little tiny chairs and they don't have desks, they have tables and first of all, they just think it's like there's a celebrity sitting next to them 'cause they can't believe it.
But I'm just like, oh wow.
You just, just to be through their eyes is interesting.
So I think that's incredible that you did that.
I'll jump in.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, change of perspective.
Helpful.
Go ahead,
Mitch Weathers: Mitch.
Totally.
Yeah.
And some of the school leaders I admire, most that I've met and collaborated with over the years would do the same.
Or they would teach a summer school class or they would do something to stay connected, though this is what it's like, but the kid experienced.
But to your point, and I mentioned this earlier, we wrote this K 1 23, but as we were getting done as a. Secondary teacher, I was, oh, I wish in parentheses we could say, but it's also for everybody else because that's the case.
But it all boils down to just these assumptions that we make.
Like you're in ninth grade, I'm gonna give you all the instructions at once and expect you to go do this for 45 minutes.
And that just rarely works.
We all know that If you've spent any time in the classroom and it's these, oh, it's not more to do, it's again, it's those glasses.
What if I did it?
What if I like Sarah's saying, what if it was chunked?
What if I like those?
Those little adjustments make all the difference and it's, and I wanna keep saying that it's not something else for a teacher to do.
It's a new way of seeing it that you won't unsee it.
Mike Caldwell: How much of this, obviously knowing the science and the research that's in your book, but how much of this too is really empathy on the teacher side that prior to, or as part of my planning that I'm putting on my student hat and saying, how is this, how are these instructions going to be received?
What are the.
Potential distractions, roadblocks, confu, confusion, whatever it else, like how much of this is related to having that kind of empathetic view of your students' perspective?
Sarah O: It's all about anticipation.
I like the fact that you're identifying that as empathy, and of course we're doing this in the name of.
Supporting our students.
We're doing it because we want more efficiency, we want more success, but it is about knowing, oh, this is gonna be a problem.
This is too much.
I need to pause here, or I need to interject here, or.
Oh, I put that right there.
And that's gonna, they're gonna be stick.
Like I got an Amazon delivery and they're all like, what's in the box?
What's in?
I'm like, oh man, I have to hide this thing.
I gotta put this thing somewhere else.
'cause they all know Amazon.
They think it's, I'm like, look, it's pencils.
Don't get excited.
But it, the goal is we.
We're preventing and things will happen and you'll be like, oh, I should've known.
And some of that is content related things that come up that if you teach year after you realize this is gonna be a problem.
Um, so it's not perfection of course, but it is certainly a way of just preserve saying, I, I, I understand you're in this boom of development and I'm gonna do what I can to harness whatever you have.
For learning, so you're not here wasting it on.
Oh, I'm desperately trying to pay attention.
I'm desperately trying to reach that pencil sharpener.
I'm trying to, and my friend is right.
You put my friend right next to me and now you want me to pay attention to you.
And all I wanna do is whisper to my friend and I'll tell my students, I will say to them, I just read that whole page.
I have no idea what I read.
I have to go back.
I wasn't, I got distracted.
Or we had a staff meeting this morning and I couldn't sit next to Mrs. Clark because I had to pay attention.
I said, Mrs. Clark, I love you, but it's gonna be too hard for me to sit with you and really pay attention so they know this is not you're little and this is for you.
This is about functioning as a human and controlling your.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, a hundred percent.
Okay, so I'm a, let's pretend there's a K three or elementary principal listening right now.
What, what are the top three things that you think that you would recommend that is maybe.
Something they should audit as a school leader as they walk into classrooms related to, to environment, instruction, routines, however you want to put it.
But what are some recommendations you would have for them to start as they're anticipating buying your book, but prior to that, what should they do?
Mitch Weathers: I'll start.
I want being the first grade teacher on the call.
I definitely have some ideas, but.
Sarah O: I think, as I mentioned before, the easiest thing to do is to just scan the room and you know, and.
We're guilty of it and I was guilty of it, of just having a bunch of stuff to have it and we're gonna teach telling time in May, so I might as well go ahead and hang up this telling time poster right now 'cause it matches the colors in my room.
But.
Is it useful?
Right now?
No.
And now my kids are looking at that because it's new, so their attention because we can't help it.
Our attention is drawn to novel things and it's protective in nature, looking around and very respectfully.
Thinking, I'm not gonna tell this teacher to strip the room.
I'm not gonna tell them not to have, because then you're gonna get defensiveness and then you're not gonna get anywhere.
But I'm gonna say, Hey, do you think we could put this over here?
Or have you thought, do you notice your students like paying attention to that a lot?
Things like that.
The other thing is.
Just disarray.
Even in transitions, like when you notice that kids just don't seem to know what to do or there's a lack of order.
And when I say order, I don't mean like control, but just things seem to run.
If things don't seem to run well, that's always an indication that you're lacking a routine.
You're lacking expectations and a routine, and you're leaving room for a ton of ambiguity.
Which challenges?
Something we haven't talked about much today, but cognitive flexibility.
So I wanna get in line, it's time to go to art.
We're gonna line up and we have three kids pushing and shoving for one spot and trying to navigate the compromise and the emotions and the rigidity of, no, I have to be here.
If you have a routine in place for how that works, that eliminates the need for all of that guesswork and tension, things like that.
When you walk into a room and it just seems like it's running like a well oiled machine, the kids aren't asking the teacher a hundred questions because they know.
Where they put their paper when it's done.
They know.
They know what the expectations are, they know where to get things.
I think that is an indication that there's a really well thought out routines.
And when I still, of course, I still find things where I'm like, oh man, I obviously haven't set an expectation for that because.
They get up from the carpet and they're whatever we, I say that to say we all, we'll continue to have things to improve on and I certainly don't have all the answers, but I think when you see, when you look at the physical space, when you see a teacher who's giving too much information, that you know, if you have to remember that information and then remember how to navigate the activity.
That they're giving you to demonstrate that you've understood.
Sometimes we assume that students aren't doing well, but it's not because they don't, they can't understand the content.
It's because they're having trouble navigating the activity that you gave them.
The directions were too much, or it's just too much diversity within the activity and you need to break it down.
So that was a lot, but I don't think it's terribly complicated.
In terms of as looking through the eyes of an administrator and being able to assess, is this, do I see that this is a need?
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, for sure.
Mitch Weathers: And I might encourage that school leader, Mike, maybe pick up a copy for yourself first and thumb through it.
And I only say that because what Sarah and I have done throughout in both books actually, but we were very intentional about explaining this, like conceptually and then.
Here's a practical, like real example from real classrooms and, and in some cases pictures.
And we have a running example that we come back to throughout the book that illustrates what you might see in a classroom when this, the, these executive functioning glasses are put on.
Even in how I deliver instructions, how I set up the room.
And, and it's true and we very gently acknowledge that primary classrooms can have lots of decorations.
Like it's just a thing like culturally, and you go into a high school classroom and it's rare to find a classroom that's like overly decorated, right?
It's just they're different spaces.
My mom taught second grade her entire career, and I used to go help set up the borders around every.
Pinup board and then that had to have a special paper or plastic super color.
And I just, a lot into Sarah's points, I have all this stuff because it's meant to be warm and inviting and you want that for little kids.
But when we think about, okay, instruction and me, I just need your attention for these, this, these precious few minutes where I stand when I. Give that direct instruction, I can help ease the strain on their visual environment perhaps, or the idea of a noisy classroom is productive.
Thinking about that, thinking about who's in the room and what's most fascinating to me about all this is it's all predicated on knowing the students in the room.
You have to know the kids who are in the room.
There's some generalizations we can make, there's no question about it, but also knowing specifically those.
20 or 25 or whatever it is, kiddos sitting in your room can be really helpful.
Sarah O: And I would love to just throw in that we do give examples in the book to contextualize like, okay, here's what that might look like for you, but we're very clear.
This is not prescriptive.
This is, what does this look like with your kids in classroom?
Whether you teach music or you are a homeroom teacher of second grade, or you're, you're some kind of pullout service, here's an idea of what that might look like when it's applied.
Go use that and apply it for however it works in your space.
But we don't, we're not taking away any kind of agency and certainly don't want to think that this is a list of instructions for teachers.
Mike Caldwell: So your book, would you say it's primarily targeted towards the classroom teacher, school leader?
Could it also be like a parent resource?
What, who do you think is the kind of primary audience for your book?
Mitch Weathers: We, we wrote it for the teacher initially, no doubt.
And wanted it to be not only for the teacher or the educator in the room, maybe is a better way to say.
It doesn't have to be your role may be other than teacher.
But what's really interesting and, and that was deliberate and we really wanted it to be for primary.
Just to recognize, acknowledge, honor, how different the job is than what I ever did in middle school or high school, and I would argue upper elementary as well.
And yet.
It's absolutely for the school leader because it's not prescriptive, because it's not do this and this.
So when we talk about really we consider cre, it's about crafting environments that lead to better executive functioning.
And that's very context specific.
It's grade level, it's age specific, all of that.
But if I'm a school leader.
My environment's just larger.
It's the whole school.
What's that mean?
What are the lenses that I can put on?
So I would say absolutely for school leaders and then just supporting the work happening in the classroom.
Some of those shifts and when we get collective about it, meaning we're all doing it together, brings in a shared language, a shared understanding.
That can be campus wide, it can be district wide.
But surprisingly, I guess Sarah, I don't know if you would agree, but the book was sent out both from Corwin and then for.
Folks that we respect to for pre-reads, give us your feedback, adjustments.
We want really want this to be a special book.
And it was really resonated with parents as well.
So I would say it, it was written for the teachers, educators in the room, but absolutely school and district leaders and parents will benefit.
And I'll keep saying it, I'm saying this all the time these days, Mike.
Every secondary teacher listening to this pick, pick up a copy.
I promise you, you'll, there'll be just those aha moments.
I'm now convinced that every upper elementary, middle, high school teacher and college professor would benefit from spending half a day in a really gifted primary teacher's classroom because the intentionality in some, I have had days where I give kids this well-designed activity, I give them some instructions, and I do set 'em loose for a majority of the class period, and it, it works.
I'm there and I'm helping and but that intentionality, that primary has to have.
Sarah, so many times in writing this book was like, we don't have to say that.
I'm like, really?
She's, it's literally the air we breathe.
Well actually it'll feel like I'm talking down to a teacher if I say that and I'll be like, oh, okay, we had to make these adjustments.
So it's, I really mean it.
And that sounds so self-serving 'cause it's our book.
But I really mean, I mean it, that's the mission behind.
This particular book, so I hope people pick it up and give it a read.
Sarah O: And Mike, I'd love to give you and your listeners a quick anecdote for how this might be beneficial for school leaders, not just classroom teachers.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, please do.
Sarah O: My school
Mike Caldwell: is,
Sarah O: yeah, my school is wonderful.
I love it.
I'll give all the dis disclaimers ahead of time.
But our floors and our hallways are like checkerboard.
The tiles are like checkerboard.
So now you have kindergartners, first graders, second graders, and you're telling them to walk in a straight line and all they wanna do is hopscotch along these, or they're like, don't touch the green.
And I'm like, whoever did this strangle.
Because I'm like, clearly you don't know children.
You should have just, everybody should be consulting.
So it was funny, we had our head facilities, people in looking at our school.
Which at the time was the newest elementary in the district, and they were working on building another elementary, and they were walking around our building and I said, I pulled 'em aside.
I said, Hey, you see these floors?
Don't do that.
Because these, that's what they see, hopscotch.
They see a game.
And yet here we are saying.
Walk in a straight line, self to self.
And we're really making it very hard for them to be able to do that.
And that's a lot of SelfControl that they have to manifest in that case.
So we are, in that case, challenging their ex, their developing executive functions.
Mike Caldwell: Adults
Mitch Weathers: see the same on the floor.
Right?
They may not feel as free to start hopscotching.
It's
Mike Caldwell: worth
Mitch Weathers: pointing
Mike Caldwell: out.
Yeah.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna definitely pick up a copy.
I think it's, I'm excited to read it.
I love the analogy of looking at it through.
Through lenses or a change in lens.
It reminds me of years and years ago when augmented reality first came out.
Remember there was this app that you could look through the kind of picture of your phone and depending on what you're looking at, like there was maybe this building, you're downtown and this building has an advertisement.
It's this augmented reality that's built into this application.
But you're looking at something, but you're seeing.
A layer data or information on top of it.
And what I'm imagining with this knowledge from this book is when I look in my hall hallway, I'm gonna see it differently with this lens because I'm gonna see, oh yeah, those checkered tiles are a distraction.
Or I'm gonna walk into a classroom and I'm not just seeing it filled front for this warm and fuzzy environment feeling it's, oh, I see the distractions that this could cause for students.
So I love it.
This is really, um.
Almost an hour.
I, we could go another hour.
I would love to learn more and talk more.
You guys are a wealth of knowledge, but instead, let's send people to to your book so they can find it on Amazon.
The title is Executive Functions for Every K through Three Classroom, promoting Self-Regulation For a Strong Start, Mitch Weathers and Sarah Oberly.
And right now you can pre-order.
Is that right?
When does it become available?
Mitch Weathers: It's gonna be in the flesh in two weeks towards the end of March.
I forget the exact date, but yeah, like I think it's the 23rd fourth, something like, like that.
Yeah, it got bumped up by a month.
Sarah and I will be speaking at Learning in the Brain in April in New York, and our goal was, we really wanted it.
In person there and that we, we just got news this week that it's gonna be out about a month early.
You can also order directly from Corwin with free shipping, both, and it's still pre-order Amazon Corwin.
I would just check both and go with what you prefer.
Mike Caldwell: We'll drop a link into the show notes for this podcast so people can find that and order directly.
I'll put in whatever link you guys prefer.
Uh, before we break, Sarah, Mitch, anything else you'd like to leave maybe that we didn't ask, that you'd like to share before we wrap up?
Sarah O: I think just one of the big goals was this in general, one of mine, and I forced Mitch to agree to this goal was to.
Have primary teachers be seen and be recognized that we need our own content.
We cannot relate, and there's no one-to-one correlation between the example you're giving a high school teacher and us.
So we felt, hey, and I'm the audience for this book, you know, myself and my colleagues.
So I wrote it for.
Myself, my classroom, my kids, my experience knowing that we desperately need this and we hope that all of the primary teachers that read it feel appreciated and feel seen and that it is helpful in some way.
Mitch Weathers: Fantastic.
Well, only thing that I'll add to that, Mike.
Yeah.
It will be helpful, not if they find, I promise you, you will find this insightful, but reach out to Sarah and I. We'll put our contact both our websites, sarah oberly.com, amit organized binder.com.
We'd love to hear from you if you have questions, comments, if you love the book.
Tell us about it.
That's always nice to hear, but we're here to support you in that journey.
And one of, one of the things that was most fun and continues starting another one in April is book studies with cohorts, whether that be a school or a district, or even like county level, any of that.
We would love to be supporting you in the journey of learning about Corey F's with this book.
So.
Reach out to us.
Mike Caldwell: Awesome.
And we'll make sure we put your respective websites on those show notes as well.
Awesome.
Mitch, Sarah, thank you so much for one, putting this book together.
I know it, it was not a easy journey, but I'm excited that you're.
To a point where it can launch and people could start reading it.
All the work that you put into it.
And thanks for this conversation today.
I learned a lot and I'm sure our listeners did as well.
And I'm looking forward to reading your book.
So thanks.
Thanks Mike.
And for those of you joining us, thanks for another, for joining us for another episode of Transformative Principle and we'll see you at the next one.
Sarah O: Thanks, Mike.
Mike Caldwell: Thank you.