1 00:00:00,990 --> 00:00:03,630 Aaron Bock: Welcome to the IT Matters podcast hosted by 2 00:00:03,750 --> 00:00:07,560 Opkalla. We're an IT advisory firm that makes technology easy 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:11,550 for your business. Our vendor neutral technology advisors work 4 00:00:11,550 --> 00:00:14,760 directly with your team to assess technology needs and 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,450 procure the best IT solutions for your organization. On this 6 00:00:18,450 --> 00:00:22,320 podcast, expect high level expertise from our hosts, plus 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,320 experience driven perspective from the leading experts on 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,850 topics like AI, cybersecurity, industry focused IT solutions, 9 00:00:29,850 --> 00:00:34,770 strategy and more. Now let's get into today's discussion on what 10 00:00:34,770 --> 00:00:36,060 matters in IT. 11 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,710 Keith Hawkey: This episode is brought to you by Zscaler, the 12 00:00:39,710 --> 00:00:44,300 world's leading cloud security platform. Let's talk about VPNs 13 00:00:44,300 --> 00:00:47,990 and firewalls. They've been the backbone for security for 14 00:00:47,990 --> 00:00:53,150 decades, but let's face it, they're outdated complex. It can 15 00:00:53,150 --> 00:00:56,750 hold your business back, and that's where Zscaler comes in. 16 00:00:57,350 --> 00:01:01,850 Zscaler takes your organization off the network and into the 17 00:01:01,850 --> 00:01:05,630 cloud with their zero trust exchange making your security 18 00:01:05,630 --> 00:01:10,370 simpler, smarter and more effective by creating a direct 19 00:01:10,370 --> 00:01:13,730 connection between your users and applications they need. 20 00:01:14,570 --> 00:01:18,170 Zscaler eliminates the unnecessary traffic jams and 21 00:01:18,170 --> 00:01:23,090 reduces costs and complexity. With Zscaler, your business 22 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,140 isn't weighed down by old school infrastructure. You'll increase 23 00:01:27,140 --> 00:01:31,940 agility, improve security and enable your teams to move faster 24 00:01:31,940 --> 00:01:35,600 than ever before, all while knowing your data is fully 25 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,610 protected. So why stick with the old when the new is this good? 26 00:01:41,180 --> 00:01:45,890 Transform your security with Zscaler and experience true 27 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,930 business agility. Visit zscaler.com to learn more and 28 00:01:50,930 --> 00:01:55,220 take the first step toward a simpler and secure future. 29 00:01:55,510 --> 00:02:01,180 Welcome to the IT Matters podcast hosted by Opkalla. We 30 00:02:01,180 --> 00:02:04,720 are an IT advisory firm that helps businesses navigate the 31 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,880 vast and complex IT marketplace. At Opkalla, we work alongside IT 32 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,900 teams to design, procure and implement and support it 33 00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:18,190 solutions without an agenda or technology bias. But on this 34 00:02:18,190 --> 00:02:21,460 podcast, you can expect a high level of expertise from our 35 00:02:21,460 --> 00:02:24,910 host, plus interviews with leading experts and topics like 36 00:02:24,940 --> 00:02:28,840 AI, cybersecurity, industry specific IT solutions and 37 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:34,090 strategy. Now let's get into today's discussion on what 38 00:02:34,090 --> 00:02:40,450 matters in IT. Aaron, who do we have the pleasure of guessing on 39 00:02:40,450 --> 00:02:41,920 the IT managed podcast today. 40 00:02:42,380 --> 00:02:44,780 Aaron Bock: Yeah, it's good to see you, Keith. We've got Grant 41 00:02:44,780 --> 00:02:48,590 Walsh, who is the leader of infrastructure and security at 42 00:02:48,590 --> 00:02:51,650 Flow Control Group based here in Charlotte today. Grant, welcome 43 00:02:51,650 --> 00:02:52,280 to the show. 44 00:02:53,230 --> 00:02:55,300 Grant Walsh: Thank you, sir. I am pumped to be here. 45 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,690 Aaron Bock: Love the Opkalla orange that you've got on today. 46 00:02:59,410 --> 00:03:04,600 Oh, there we go. We go way back with grant. So he's a he's a 47 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,180 fan, and we're a fan of him. So thanks for joining the show 48 00:03:07,180 --> 00:03:11,980 where we're excited to to interview and learn from you 49 00:03:11,980 --> 00:03:14,920 today. But I think Keith's got something for us to start off 50 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:16,810 with today, So Keith, I'll pass it to you. 51 00:03:16,860 --> 00:03:21,070 Keith Hawkey: Yes, I have a little little trip, yeah, game 52 00:03:21,166 --> 00:03:27,003 for the two of you today, if you're willing, Grant absolutely 53 00:03:27,098 --> 00:03:33,031 you're willing to put your mind to the metal, two truths and a 54 00:03:33,127 --> 00:03:38,199 lie. And it is based on the recent CES robots edition 55 00:03:38,294 --> 00:03:44,131 consumer electronics 2025 that they had earlier this year. So 56 00:03:44,227 --> 00:03:50,160 I've come up with there's three robots I'm going to introduce, 57 00:03:50,256 --> 00:03:55,710 and two of them are actually at the event. One of them is 58 00:03:55,806 --> 00:04:01,547 completely made up, okay, all right. Are we ready? Let's go. 59 00:04:01,643 --> 00:04:07,289 Ready? All right. All right, team. Let's play a quick round 60 00:04:07,384 --> 00:04:13,221 of two truths and a lie. CES robots edition, hey, here we go. 61 00:04:13,317 --> 00:04:19,250 Option a Meet mirumi, a sloth inspired emotional support robot 62 00:04:19,346 --> 00:04:25,087 that attaches to your bag and reacts bashfully when touched, 63 00:04:25,183 --> 00:04:30,829 averts its gaze and even size when overwhelmed by attention 64 00:04:30,924 --> 00:04:36,857 option B, say hello to toast. E, a bread scented AI robot that 65 00:04:36,953 --> 00:04:42,407 delivers motivational quotes every morning while toasting 66 00:04:42,503 --> 00:04:48,244 actual slices of bread. And option C then there is arrow cat 67 00:04:48,340 --> 00:04:54,081 tower, an air purifier that doubles as a luxury cat tree. It 68 00:04:54,177 --> 00:04:59,727 cleans the air and tracks your cat's weight and syncs your 69 00:04:59,823 --> 00:05:05,660 phone to deliver daily feline wellness reports. I. So we have 70 00:05:05,756 --> 00:05:11,593 marumi, the emotional sloth. We have toast e the motivational 71 00:05:11,689 --> 00:05:17,813 toaster and arrow cat tower, the air purifier, feline health and 72 00:05:17,908 --> 00:05:19,440 wellness expert. 73 00:05:19,420 --> 00:05:21,760 Grant Walsh: They're all legit. They all actually could see any 74 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,380 one of those being an actual robot. 75 00:05:27,740 --> 00:05:32,360 Aaron Bock: Yeah, I Grant, I don't know I, I'm thinking B. 76 00:05:33,500 --> 00:05:38,060 The smell of bread just seems like a random smell that some AI 77 00:05:38,060 --> 00:05:38,990 bot made up. 78 00:05:39,710 --> 00:05:42,950 Grant Walsh: I could, I mean, I yeah, I mean, I think people 79 00:05:42,950 --> 00:05:46,610 love cats a lot. A lot of viewers love cats. So I can see, 80 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,370 see for sure, being one and tracking your cats weights 81 00:05:49,370 --> 00:05:54,050 important, I guess, and the emotional support sloth, we all 82 00:05:54,050 --> 00:05:56,870 need emotional support, yeah, I mean, and that's, and that's 83 00:05:56,870 --> 00:05:58,580 airline friendly, so I feel like you could take it when you 84 00:05:58,580 --> 00:06:01,010 travel. So that would be, you know, benefit there the toasting 85 00:06:01,010 --> 00:06:04,550 one. I just seemed as much as I say, No, I still say like, well, 86 00:06:04,550 --> 00:06:07,640 it does multiple functions. It gets toast, and it smells like 87 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,670 bread, and it gives you motivational quote, The Adeline, 88 00:06:10,670 --> 00:06:11,360 B is the lie. 89 00:06:12,060 --> 00:06:12,900 Aaron Bock: I think B is the lie. 90 00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:19,140 Keith Hawkey: And the answer is, b, that is the lie. 91 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:25,700 Congratulations. So you have both won the beta version of 92 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,920 marumi, the emotional support sloth. Let's go. So expect that 93 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:36,320 in your mail there actually is a toaster that, instead of 94 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,840 toasting bread, you slot your phone in there and it charges 95 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:43,840 yourself. So it's a little bit of a variation of that 96 00:06:43,870 --> 00:06:46,450 Aaron Bock: I did see that it charges it in like, under a 97 00:06:46,450 --> 00:06:49,900 minute, or something crazy. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, 98 00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:53,830 thank you for indulging us with with that wonderful CES trivia 99 00:06:53,830 --> 00:06:57,970 today. Grant, we're excited to have you on the show today, I 100 00:06:57,970 --> 00:07:01,090 guess, for the audience out there who don't know you and 101 00:07:01,090 --> 00:07:05,050 your background. How about start with your introduction of just 102 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,920 how you how you got into it, and your journey to where you're at 103 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,060 today as a leader in it. And then we'll kind of dig in from 104 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:18,340 Grant Walsh: Yeah, if we go way back, back into the 19th, 1900s 105 00:07:13,060 --> 00:07:13,420 there. 106 00:07:18,370 --> 00:07:23,740 the name golly, my it, don't say it career, but me for it, have 107 00:07:23,740 --> 00:07:30,160 always been, I guess. Remember 1986 getting the Commodore 64 108 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,980 and typing out commands in a book and run running games that 109 00:07:32,980 --> 00:07:36,280 way, and putting ball cards into a small, little database back 110 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,890 then. But I've always been kind of a tech guy when it comes to 111 00:07:38,890 --> 00:07:42,640 it did that worked at Radio Shack from back in the day, for 112 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,100 a lot of folks who don't know radio check, but that was, that 113 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:47,920 was the place to be for technology. But overall, for, 114 00:07:47,950 --> 00:07:51,220 you know, the actual IT career started back in 2003 in the 115 00:07:51,250 --> 00:07:55,120 infrastructure operation side of things. Majority of my career 116 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,400 really has been in leadership. So I've had opportunity to grow 117 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:02,830 from, you know, a lead service engine, a service engineer or it 118 00:08:02,830 --> 00:08:05,650 analyst, depending with how you call the roles up through, you 119 00:08:05,650 --> 00:08:09,850 know, site managers, regional managers, senior managers and 120 00:08:09,850 --> 00:08:11,680 some large organizations have the opportunity work for some 121 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,890 smaller companies where you get to do everything from E 122 00:08:14,890 --> 00:08:18,370 commerce, social media, ERP, service desk, the whole nine 123 00:08:18,370 --> 00:08:22,390 yards. So good exposure there. But now, you know, in the in a 124 00:08:22,390 --> 00:08:25,480 director capacity, or head of infrastructure and security for 125 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,650 the company. Met now, but it's been about, I said, 22, 23 some 126 00:08:29,650 --> 00:08:32,950 odd years in IT with like so the vast majority, in the in a 127 00:08:32,950 --> 00:08:35,890 leadership capacity. And that's really been the most fun, 128 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,950 working with people, watching people grow, driving cultural 129 00:08:38,950 --> 00:08:41,320 change. That is, that's, that's that's my bread and butter. Like 130 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,960 some, some people geek out on technology, and I, I used to, 131 00:08:44,110 --> 00:08:46,600 but now it's like just, you know, helping people grow, 132 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,720 driving solutions to the business and just driving that 133 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,360 change wherever. You know you have to work. I don't think 134 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,250 anybody, and you know that I've worked with ever comes in, I 135 00:08:54,250 --> 00:08:56,980 don't have to work. I'm just here for a good time. But you 136 00:08:56,980 --> 00:08:59,230 know, trying to make it a good time is really what's been the 137 00:08:59,230 --> 00:09:00,310 joy of my career so far. 138 00:09:01,140 --> 00:09:04,080 Aaron Bock: And I guess on that, because if you think about you, 139 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,500 you just said you're not you used to geek out, maybe not as 140 00:09:07,500 --> 00:09:11,160 much now. But like, if you compare the IT function in a 141 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,580 business to accounting, marketing, et cetera, it's all 142 00:09:14,580 --> 00:09:18,840 changing because of technology, right? So technology is what's 143 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,920 driving it, and in technology, it's growing. It's changing 144 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,880 faster than ever. So like, what's, in your opinion, like, 145 00:09:26,060 --> 00:09:29,300 is it harder? Is it what's the difference between leading, 146 00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:32,840 like, an IT team and keeping good culture, versus, like, 147 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,720 maybe an accounting team or a finance team, etc? And the 148 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,100 organizations you've worked at, 149 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,627 Grant Walsh: I think today is different because the technology 150 00:09:41,687 --> 00:09:45,247 is changing so fast that we're kind of at a tipping point in 151 00:09:45,307 --> 00:09:49,105 terms of, there's a lot of good IT, engineers, services, people, 152 00:09:49,164 --> 00:09:52,903 people that know technology for a while, but we're pivoting to, 153 00:09:52,962 --> 00:09:56,701 and I think Cloud's been around, obviously, Cloud's been around 154 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,321 for a number of years, but we're kind of tipping into, do we 155 00:10:00,380 --> 00:10:03,881 have. Enough expertise on the cloud side? Do we have enough 156 00:10:03,941 --> 00:10:07,442 expertise on the AI side that you're trying to encourage to 157 00:10:07,501 --> 00:10:11,240 help people grow into those new areas so they'll get passed by? 158 00:10:11,300 --> 00:10:14,860 Because if you've just been server 2016 windows on on the an 159 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,540 IPv before type environment, and that's all you've ever done. 160 00:10:18,599 --> 00:10:21,981 Cool, but those opportunities are lessening and lessening 161 00:10:22,041 --> 00:10:25,542 because technology is changing so fast, so trying to have a 162 00:10:25,601 --> 00:10:29,340 culture where you want people to grow, and then trying to, as a 163 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,138 leader, you know, kind of pour into that growth and want people 164 00:10:33,198 --> 00:10:36,640 to grow, and then the folks that don't, and your company's 165 00:10:36,699 --> 00:10:39,844 evolving and changing and becoming, you know, they're 166 00:10:39,903 --> 00:10:43,345 adapting to this new technology, having those real, honest 167 00:10:43,405 --> 00:10:47,025 conversations with folks that don't want to change that maybe 168 00:10:47,084 --> 00:10:50,882 this isn't the place for you. So it's it's tough on the IT side, 169 00:10:50,941 --> 00:10:54,443 just because that there is so much change happening so fast 170 00:10:54,502 --> 00:10:57,707 that you have to keep your people up so they don't get 171 00:10:57,766 --> 00:10:58,360 passed by. 172 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,700 Keith Hawkey: Those are great points, Grant. I mean, you guys 173 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:06,640 are moving very quickly, and I'm curious, how would you describe 174 00:11:06,670 --> 00:11:10,690 the team culture and the IT department of Flow Control, 175 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:16,240 What? What? How do you like if you're in if you're interviewing 176 00:11:16,420 --> 00:11:19,540 a prospect to join your team? What would you say about the 177 00:11:19,540 --> 00:11:21,220 culture that you instill. 178 00:11:23,370 --> 00:11:25,680 Grant Walsh: So the culture we try to drive, from a leadership 179 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:28,020 standpoint, is really a servant leadership culture, where we 180 00:11:28,020 --> 00:11:31,380 pour into our team, we try to help our team grow. But one 181 00:11:31,380 --> 00:11:34,200 thing that I've done, and I've had the opportunity to build the 182 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,020 whole team here at Flow Control, when I got here, was me, one 183 00:11:37,020 --> 00:11:40,320 service desk person and two engineers, and now we're much 184 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,560 larger than that. We've built out the entire team, but I value 185 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:46,680 the input of all our engineers, all our services folks, all of 186 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:49,650 our managers, so much so that when we do interviews, it's not 187 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:52,860 me doing interviews. I want it to be a cultural fit so that 188 00:11:52,860 --> 00:11:56,400 team is comfortable working with this new individual. Like, are 189 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,190 they going to come in and chip in where necessary? Are they 190 00:11:59,190 --> 00:12:01,980 going to come in and wear a lot of hats? Like, I'm if I'm coming 191 00:12:01,980 --> 00:12:04,320 in, I'm just a backup guy. That's not really what we're 192 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,100 looking for. You have to be to feel flexible to do servers. 193 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:09,930 Today could be a networking issue. Tomorrow, could be 194 00:12:09,930 --> 00:12:11,970 working with a partner in the firewall. Whatever the case may 195 00:12:11,970 --> 00:12:15,900 be, is be flexible and be concerned about your team. Now 196 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:19,950 my my goal from leadership standpoint, is to ensure that 197 00:12:19,950 --> 00:12:24,960 culture is not burning you out. So we do do a, I think, a good 198 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,780 job in terms of trying to set that line of work life balance. 199 00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:30,780 So it's the expectations. You're not coming in working seven days 200 00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:32,880 a week. And I know some IT groups do. They work all the 201 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,520 time. They work nights, they work weekends. I've been there, 202 00:12:35,580 --> 00:12:38,850 done that. That's tough, and sometimes you have to go to that 203 00:12:38,850 --> 00:12:40,530 while you're building that change, because you're trying to 204 00:12:40,530 --> 00:12:42,270 get everything where it is. But I think we're at with Flow 205 00:12:42,270 --> 00:12:44,520 Control Group. I control group. Sure, you're gonna do patching, 206 00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:46,710 you're gonna do some migrations at night, you're gonna do some 207 00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:49,680 things here and there, but the norm is not to have that work 208 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:52,110 life balance so skewed that people get burned out and don't 209 00:12:52,110 --> 00:12:54,750 want to come in the next day. So I want to make sure our team has 210 00:12:54,750 --> 00:12:56,490 that, and that's the kind of culture we sell when they when 211 00:12:56,490 --> 00:12:58,380 they come in, they're going to come in, we're going to have a 212 00:12:58,380 --> 00:13:01,350 good time. We're going to, you know, I won't say we're family, 213 00:13:01,350 --> 00:13:03,690 because that's kind of cliche. Because we're not family, we are 214 00:13:04,350 --> 00:13:06,630 work buddies. We're gonna do our jobs, we're gonna go home, go a 215 00:13:06,630 --> 00:13:08,640 separate ways. We can leave and come back the next day, refresh. 216 00:13:09,150 --> 00:13:11,550 I don't want you to, I don't want to be your work buddy. I 217 00:13:11,550 --> 00:13:13,710 don't want to, you know, I love you guys when you're here at 218 00:13:13,710 --> 00:13:16,530 work, but when we leave, go home your family, go home to whatever 219 00:13:16,530 --> 00:13:19,080 makes you happy. So tomorrow you're recharged and you're 220 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,170 ready to work. And then again, when something blows up, and it 221 00:13:22,170 --> 00:13:25,110 does, you're an IT. Something will happen. Will blow up that 222 00:13:25,380 --> 00:13:28,170 All right, everyone stops. How can I help? What can I do? How 223 00:13:28,170 --> 00:13:30,780 can we rally around this problem, get it taken care of, 224 00:13:30,780 --> 00:13:33,210 and get back to what we were working on before? So that's the 225 00:13:33,210 --> 00:13:35,670 culture. We built a Flow Control Group, and we have a really, 226 00:13:35,820 --> 00:13:40,050 really good team, and I think, not by any force. And Aaron's 227 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,260 been there and met our team, not by any force, not by anything 228 00:13:43,260 --> 00:13:46,590 that's directed or demanded. We've ended up with a very 229 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,280 diverse team of individuals from different backgrounds, different 230 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,550 ethnicities, different gender, just everything by no force. We 231 00:13:53,550 --> 00:13:56,790 just find the right people, and they are so good, and I have in 232 00:13:56,790 --> 00:14:02,010 those different perspectives when they look at issues or 233 00:14:02,010 --> 00:14:04,410 concerns or things. Hey, here what I think, or here's what 234 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,340 I've seen in the past, has helped us really push, you know, 235 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,340 push things forward and drive that kind of truck, that change 236 00:14:11,340 --> 00:14:14,280 we're looking for just through natural, just, you know, 237 00:14:15,330 --> 00:14:18,120 experience that they've had. So again, we haven't gone out and 238 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,010 tried to look for this stuff, and we just hire the right 239 00:14:20,010 --> 00:14:22,680 people. We have our team again, interview everybody. We bring 240 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:24,840 the teams of people and say, Hey, so we're interviewing for 241 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,210 this role. Who wants to jump in and help out interview. And the 242 00:14:27,210 --> 00:14:29,070 questions are great because you get questions from all over the 243 00:14:29,070 --> 00:14:31,890 place, and you see how people react and and then we go back 244 00:14:31,890 --> 00:14:33,840 and take their input, and I don't make the final call, like, 245 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,560 I'll if the team says this person is the rank the highest, 246 00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:39,390 then we'll go with that person. And then, you know, I'll 247 00:14:39,390 --> 00:14:41,250 interview them if I think they're great fit. I may ask 248 00:14:41,250 --> 00:14:44,640 questions or not, but so far, I haven't said, Oh, the team picks 249 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,950 somebody. And I said, No, it's always gonna, everything's 250 00:14:46,950 --> 00:14:49,380 worked out. So it's, it's a really good culture here of a 251 00:14:49,380 --> 00:14:52,800 real team input and transparency and just be honest with each 252 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,380 other. That's been the big thing for us, too, to really build 253 00:14:55,380 --> 00:14:58,470 that trust amongst the team. Is nobody's BS in anybody. It's all 254 00:14:58,860 --> 00:15:00,690 and whatever I tell you is the truth. I'm not going to give you 255 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,880 blow smoke up your butt. This is, this is what's happening. 256 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:03,150 So, 257 00:15:03,570 --> 00:15:07,410 Keith Hawkey: Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And you 258 00:15:07,410 --> 00:15:10,080 mentioned something that this sticks out to me is that, no, 259 00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:14,130 these, these are our colleagues. They're not our family. They're 260 00:15:14,130 --> 00:15:17,640 fundamental, fundamentally different. And you, I think, I 261 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,150 think for a while, and even today, I mean, you'll go on 262 00:15:21,150 --> 00:15:25,530 LinkedIn and you'll see companies advertising. We have 263 00:15:25,530 --> 00:15:30,390 open slots in our family. Why don't you come join us? There 264 00:15:30,390 --> 00:15:32,250 are different types of relationships that both can be 265 00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:37,170 positive. I'm curious. You've been leading IT. TTS, IT teams 266 00:15:37,170 --> 00:15:42,690 for a long time now. I'm always curious as to what is, what do 267 00:15:42,690 --> 00:15:46,740 you think some of the wisdom, kind of the older wisdom that 268 00:15:46,740 --> 00:15:52,380 may be may have been lost in your years of managing IT teams. 269 00:15:52,410 --> 00:15:56,460 And then also, what are some of the new wisdom that you think 270 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,870 older IT managers might be able to take advantage of? That's 271 00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:02,787 Grant Walsh: pretty tough. Okay, so older wisdom that's been 272 00:16:02,832 --> 00:16:05,408 lost. I think there's as I touched on before, that, not an 273 00:16:05,452 --> 00:16:08,251 IT or not. I mean, honestly, if you're an IT, you've picked the 274 00:16:08,295 --> 00:16:11,049 wrong career for eight to five, that's just and I think that's 275 00:16:11,094 --> 00:16:13,937 lack of transparency and honesty sometimes can bite us. And just 276 00:16:13,981 --> 00:16:16,602 like, listen this role, yeah, during the time, you're gonna 277 00:16:16,646 --> 00:16:19,400 come at eight, you're gonna go home at five, you're gonna take 278 00:16:19,445 --> 00:16:22,243 your lunch, do your thing. But if you're an engineer, if you're 279 00:16:22,287 --> 00:16:24,953 security, forget that nine to five stuff and stuff you know, 280 00:16:24,997 --> 00:16:27,840 the attackers don't normally hit nine to five. So that's some of 281 00:16:27,884 --> 00:16:30,505 that old wisdom, just being honest people, that this is not 282 00:16:30,550 --> 00:16:33,081 that kind of job. And if you came out of college thinking 283 00:16:33,126 --> 00:16:35,747 that the late nights you did study, and the late nights you 284 00:16:35,791 --> 00:16:38,412 did writing reports, that still happens here. I mean, don't 285 00:16:38,456 --> 00:16:41,255 write reports. You don't study. You'll have a teacher, you have 286 00:16:41,299 --> 00:16:44,009 a test, but every day the test, and you're going to have some 287 00:16:44,053 --> 00:16:46,896 late nights and things you have to stick around for. I think new 288 00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:49,517 knowledge, new wisdom, is really that, I think early in my 289 00:16:49,561 --> 00:16:52,271 career, it's, you know, there was the lack of, how do I grow? 290 00:16:52,315 --> 00:16:55,114 Was always tough when, before I became a leader, like, how do I 291 00:16:55,158 --> 00:16:57,912 grow into my next opportunity? How do I get to that next spot? 292 00:16:57,957 --> 00:17:00,799 I think companies has in generic these trains are out there, but 293 00:17:00,844 --> 00:17:03,420 nothing specific to the career path I wanted to have. So I 294 00:17:03,465 --> 00:17:06,263 think in the newer wisdom, for folks coming out of college, how 295 00:17:06,307 --> 00:17:09,195 do I keep growing? How do we get to that next role? And they want 296 00:17:09,239 --> 00:17:11,815 it fast. They want to be there. I started here, and a year 297 00:17:11,860 --> 00:17:14,525 later, I want something else. Okay, well, let's make sure we 298 00:17:14,569 --> 00:17:17,368 put the training in place to get you there, but let's also make 299 00:17:17,412 --> 00:17:19,989 sure we're doing number the role we have today that you're 300 00:17:20,033 --> 00:17:22,832 assigned to do that do its best before we talk about that role, 301 00:17:22,876 --> 00:17:25,674 let's make sure you excel here. Before I go talk about the next 302 00:17:25,719 --> 00:17:28,473 role, do that. I think this is, this is kind of go back to old 303 00:17:28,517 --> 00:17:31,316 wisdom. You know, you're doing your job and you're training for 304 00:17:28,650 --> 00:18:59,130 Aaron Bock: Yeah, and I think you could take that. What you 305 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:33,981 the next role. Your training typically happens after hours, 306 00:17:34,025 --> 00:17:36,824 and it's been a tough thing to sell you. You take your training 307 00:17:36,868 --> 00:17:39,755 and see you make sure you can go to, I think Opkalla does a great 308 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,643 job with some lunch and learns. We've done a lot of stuff there, 309 00:17:42,687 --> 00:17:45,441 send people to different Azure trainings and things like that. 310 00:17:45,486 --> 00:17:48,373 That's been great. But if you're really serious about moving into 311 00:17:48,417 --> 00:17:51,127 that next cloud role, security role, AI role, whatever it is, 312 00:17:51,171 --> 00:17:53,970 it's going to take some of your time. We're going to invest, as 313 00:17:54,014 --> 00:17:56,635 an organization, in you who may pay for it, pay for search, 314 00:17:56,679 --> 00:17:59,433 things like that. But your time is your time. I can't give you 315 00:17:59,478 --> 00:18:01,965 the time that you need to do your job then go off to the 316 00:18:02,010 --> 00:18:04,764 training, because we still need you to do your role, but we're 317 00:18:04,808 --> 00:18:07,385 willing to invest to help you, support you, talk about it, 318 00:18:07,429 --> 00:18:10,139 create that path, but you got to give your time, and that's a 319 00:18:10,183 --> 00:18:12,804 hard thing sometimes for folks to understand, like, well, I 320 00:18:12,848 --> 00:18:15,291 need to, I need Tuesdays off every week for the next 12 321 00:18:15,336 --> 00:18:17,912 weeks. Do this training. Well, that just takes me out, you 322 00:18:17,956 --> 00:18:20,755 know, a number of hours I don't have a good support. And that's 323 00:18:20,799 --> 00:18:23,642 not saying we don't support you, because we are financially, and 324 00:18:23,687 --> 00:18:25,730 we are, you know, enthusiastically pushing you 325 00:18:25,774 --> 00:18:28,395 along, but you need to invest your time. It's a partnership 326 00:18:28,439 --> 00:18:31,060 here in terms of getting you there. And I think that's some 327 00:18:31,105 --> 00:18:33,770 old wisdom that's hard to sell to some folks, because, well, 328 00:18:33,814 --> 00:18:36,435 I'm doing this for you, like you're not really doing it for 329 00:18:36,479 --> 00:18:39,278 me. You may get this role here, but if we think about long term 330 00:18:39,322 --> 00:18:42,032 for you as the employee, and if I'm really, I care about you, 331 00:18:42,076 --> 00:18:44,875 that next role may not be here, and that's okay if you grow out 332 00:18:44,919 --> 00:18:47,673 of what we can offer you, and your next role somewhere else, I 333 00:18:47,718 --> 00:18:50,250 will give you a recommendation, because I don't have that 334 00:18:50,294 --> 00:18:52,959 opportunity for you here. So we're investing in you. Sure it 335 00:18:53,004 --> 00:18:55,669 would help us short term, but long term is going to help you 336 00:18:55,713 --> 00:18:56,380 in your career. 337 00:18:59,130 --> 00:19:02,160 just said, that's, I think that was a very great nugget of 338 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,910 advice. You could apply that to almost any industry too, because 339 00:19:05,910 --> 00:19:09,240 I know at Opkalla, I always tell people when they're interviewing 340 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,270 or when they're joining the first 18 months if you put in 341 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,630 the maximum amount of effort, which does mean after hours 342 00:19:15,630 --> 00:19:18,630 sometimes. And so I can't, I can't sit here and say you will 343 00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:21,990 be the most successful if you only work 40 hours. That's up to 344 00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:24,180 you. I can't make you do anything at night, but if you 345 00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:28,290 want to get the most ahead, you want to have a fast start, it's 346 00:19:28,290 --> 00:19:31,140 going to take some self learning, some some work after 347 00:19:31,140 --> 00:19:34,470 hours, some organizing after hours, whether that's a cert, 348 00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:38,310 whether that's a course you want to take, whether it's just 349 00:19:38,490 --> 00:19:41,670 understanding what you're doing. And I think anyone would say 350 00:19:41,670 --> 00:19:45,150 that that like, the the longer you've been in it, yeah, you can 351 00:19:45,150 --> 00:19:47,880 kind of hack the system, because you've been doing this forever, 352 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,780 and you can use experience you have. But if you're new and 353 00:19:51,780 --> 00:19:53,550 you're trying to learn it, that's how you have to get it. 354 00:19:53,550 --> 00:19:55,440 You just have to put in the work. And so Grant, I have a 355 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,710 follow up question to that. It's kind of two parts. So one, first 356 00:19:58,710 --> 00:20:01,890 part is answering, from. Um, like, if you're if to our 357 00:20:01,890 --> 00:20:04,680 audience members who do interview, and the second one 358 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,780 is, second part of the question is to people that are 359 00:20:06,780 --> 00:20:09,900 interviewing. So you mentioned how you do interviews today, 360 00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:13,770 where your team interviews, and then you'll do an interview. But 361 00:20:13,770 --> 00:20:17,700 you also, we talked about how tech is, is changing very fast. 362 00:20:18,180 --> 00:20:20,310 There's new tech, there's new concepts, there's new 363 00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:23,970 industries, right? And so culture is important. How do you 364 00:20:24,150 --> 00:20:27,810 like, how do you interview someone who is possibly, who has 365 00:20:27,810 --> 00:20:31,530 skills in an IT segment that's maybe newer, that you're not as 366 00:20:31,530 --> 00:20:36,420 familiar with, and you're trying to validate how well they could 367 00:20:36,420 --> 00:20:39,660 be in that role, balancing, like, their knowledge with the 368 00:20:39,660 --> 00:20:42,570 culture. Like, how do you weigh that? Like, what are you trying 369 00:20:42,570 --> 00:20:44,550 to ask? Like, what are you trying to uncover in that 370 00:20:44,550 --> 00:20:46,620 interview, from your perspective, to make sure that 371 00:20:46,860 --> 00:20:49,830 one, they can do the role, and two, they keep the culture that 372 00:20:49,830 --> 00:20:51,540 you have and are a good culture fit? 373 00:20:51,990 --> 00:20:54,120 Grant Walsh: Yeah, I think that's, that's a good question. 374 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,730 I think it's one of the things where you can teach tech skills, 375 00:20:56,730 --> 00:20:59,310 but I can't teach cultural fit, right? So I'm always going to 376 00:20:59,310 --> 00:21:01,680 lean to cultural fit over tech skills. So if you can do it for 377 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,160 the most part, for what we know versus what we don't know, we 378 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,470 can, we can figure out the rest. I think there's also, without 379 00:21:07,470 --> 00:21:10,170 saying, I'm not going to go in there blind, we've been able to 380 00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:14,040 leverage partnerships with whether it be an Opkalla, or 381 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,780 some other, you know, partners we use that are industry experts 382 00:21:18,810 --> 00:21:22,140 in these areas that we may like today. We're as we grow, we lean 383 00:21:22,140 --> 00:21:25,020 heavily on partners for certain areas of expertise. If I want to 384 00:21:25,020 --> 00:21:27,480 shift that internal or not even get rid of that partner, but 385 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,790 bring somebody in to help us internally, have some expertise 386 00:21:29,790 --> 00:21:32,220 and have more insightful conversations with these 387 00:21:32,220 --> 00:21:34,530 partners, because I lack the internal I can engage them or 388 00:21:34,530 --> 00:21:37,050 have engaged them in the past to help us do some of the 389 00:21:37,050 --> 00:21:39,270 interviews. Now we're in an interview with myself and this 390 00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:42,150 other person who doesn't work here, but is an expert in that 391 00:21:42,150 --> 00:21:45,780 field that we need to hire you for. So if that person is, yeah, 392 00:21:45,780 --> 00:21:48,510 they are, hey, there's, you know, our partner told us 393 00:21:48,510 --> 00:21:51,210 they're 75% of where they should be, but I think our team 394 00:21:51,210 --> 00:21:54,090 interviews them and they're like, 100% cultural fit. We'll 395 00:21:54,090 --> 00:21:56,310 go. Because if I can find somebody that fits us 396 00:21:56,310 --> 00:21:58,710 culturally, that's more important right now than, you 397 00:21:58,710 --> 00:22:01,680 know, finding that tech expertise. Hey, the perfect tech 398 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,500 expert, because a lot of times they're so focused on this one 399 00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:06,810 area that they can't do anything else. And even if I bring you in 400 00:22:06,810 --> 00:22:09,990 for AI or bring you in for cloud security, you're probably gonna 401 00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:13,020 do other stuff. I mean, we're now imagine with, you know, 402 00:22:13,050 --> 00:22:16,290 being in Charlotte, we have a lot of, you know, Fortune 500 403 00:22:16,290 --> 00:22:20,040 companies that have very siloed folks who do very specific 404 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,410 things. I have a number of friends that do that, and that's 405 00:22:22,410 --> 00:22:25,350 great for them, but in our org, where orgs I've been in, you're 406 00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:27,480 gonna have to do a lot of different things, and that 407 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,330 cultural fit is more important for us, that you have the 408 00:22:30,330 --> 00:22:33,540 flexibility and willingness to help out whenever that issue 409 00:22:33,540 --> 00:22:35,310 comes up. And 410 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,970 Aaron Bock: so flip side, you just kind of hit on it, but to 411 00:22:37,970 --> 00:22:41,990 that person that you that's on your team or is interviewing, or 412 00:22:42,140 --> 00:22:44,840 they've been the server 16 person for a while, or they've 413 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,970 been the backup person for a while. How do you besides just 414 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:52,610 making sure that they fit and they do what they're supposed to 415 00:22:52,610 --> 00:22:56,210 do, how do you convince them, slash, help them understand, 416 00:22:56,210 --> 00:23:00,800 like, evolving in their current role and in their education is 417 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,180 important and and make sure that they're taking on new roles and 418 00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:08,570 making sure they're taking on new certifications, etc, so that 419 00:23:08,570 --> 00:23:11,600 they don't get left behind because the tech passes them by. 420 00:23:11,630 --> 00:23:14,870 How do you coach that? Have you? Maybe there's an example of 421 00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:18,410 someone that you talked to for, you know, with a for about a 422 00:23:18,410 --> 00:23:20,540 year, and then all of a sudden it kind of hit them, and they 423 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,180 they started realizing they needed to do it. Share an 424 00:23:23,180 --> 00:23:23,780 example. 425 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,060 Grant Walsh: Yeah, I think that's that happens. So we do, 426 00:23:26,210 --> 00:23:28,550 you know, when I first started here, I didn't have the 427 00:23:28,550 --> 00:23:30,920 management team I have, far as you know, kind of a tiered 428 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,220 option between infrastructure, operations, security, so a lot 429 00:23:34,220 --> 00:23:36,350 of the folks reporting directly to me. And as we grew the team, 430 00:23:36,350 --> 00:23:39,590 we built out a management team. But even in the one on ones I 431 00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:43,340 had with all the engineers or the the operations folks that 432 00:23:43,340 --> 00:23:47,960 they're those meetings really focused on. Not only okay, what 433 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,520 are the big issues you're dealing with each week, but what 434 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,800 are you doing week to week to help improve yourselves, make 435 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,370 yourself better. Where do you want to be so that that's 436 00:23:55,370 --> 00:23:57,830 important to make sure on those weekly one on ones, or even now, 437 00:23:57,830 --> 00:24:01,190 with my managers making yourself you're making sure you're ready 438 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,410 for that next opportunity, whatever presents, because you 439 00:24:03,410 --> 00:24:05,840 really don't know when it's going to show up. I mean, sure I 440 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,480 can plan to grow this role, but lot of times there are 441 00:24:08,510 --> 00:24:12,230 unexpected changes that may pop up a new opportunity. I think 442 00:24:12,650 --> 00:24:15,260 we've had some folks along the way, and even here at Flow 443 00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:17,810 Control Group that we've coached for a while, hey, you've got to 444 00:24:17,810 --> 00:24:21,200 get ready for this. You know, we are seeing a shift to more of 445 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,800 the cloud. I talked about cloud a couple times today, but you 446 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,050 know, we're seeing more that shift off the on prem, to the 447 00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:30,470 cloud. And we have a partner now, and we understand it to an 448 00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:34,130 extent. But you know, Azure AWS is different than your legacy on 449 00:24:34,130 --> 00:24:37,490 prem day. So we have a number of engineers. Somebody's got to 450 00:24:37,490 --> 00:24:40,490 step up and want to take Azure. I can't force you to. I can't, I 451 00:24:40,490 --> 00:24:42,200 can't push you into it, because you're not going to do it. 452 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,390 Because you're not going to do it. You're not going to want to 453 00:24:44,420 --> 00:24:46,190 do it. I need somebody that wants to excel. And we had an 454 00:24:46,190 --> 00:24:48,530 individual that, you know, is managing some legacy technology 455 00:24:48,530 --> 00:24:50,600 that, hey, we're going to outsource this technology to a 456 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,390 partner that does it on the regular, whether it be a phone 457 00:24:53,390 --> 00:24:57,860 system or firewalls or the case may be, that's going away. So 458 00:24:57,860 --> 00:24:59,840 when that goes away, what are you going to do? Because that's 459 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,080 been. Your primary role for a long period of time, what are 460 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,140 you going to do? Because at that point, what are you adding to 461 00:25:06,140 --> 00:25:09,680 the team? If that's all you're working on so and finally, it 462 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,350 was an aha moment. Oh, that's true. And think about that. So 463 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:16,040 now they're pivoting to taking the training, putting a process 464 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,830 together that day, in six months, we should be here 12 465 00:25:18,830 --> 00:25:20,840 months. We should hear making sure that the manager and that 466 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,310 the manager and that person is working together, that their 467 00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:25,610 progress is moving on. Hey, we are again, full support, paying 468 00:25:25,610 --> 00:25:28,730 for search, paying for training, making sure that you're involved 469 00:25:28,730 --> 00:25:31,190 with the projects that are with that partner today, so you 470 00:25:31,190 --> 00:25:33,770 energy. Can get some exposure, so you can see how things are 471 00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:36,620 done, you can ask questions. So again, just really investing in 472 00:25:36,620 --> 00:25:39,410 that person to help them grow, and then just keeping that 473 00:25:39,410 --> 00:25:41,870 pulse, making a point every week, on your one on ones, or 474 00:25:41,870 --> 00:25:43,730 your bi weekly one on ones, where are you at? How are we 475 00:25:43,730 --> 00:25:46,670 moving? Because you know, if you don't do it on a regular basis, 476 00:25:46,670 --> 00:25:48,950 then it slips, and next thing you know, it's been a month, two 477 00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:51,800 months gone, and that's for this individual. Hey, man, I've been 478 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,320 here two years. We talked about this a year and a half ago, and 479 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,270 you're finally getting the point. Imagine where you would 480 00:25:56,270 --> 00:25:58,190 be if you started a year and a half ago, when we first told you 481 00:25:58,190 --> 00:26:01,010 that this is somewhere you should go. So it's just again, 482 00:26:01,010 --> 00:26:04,010 it's, we've had that happen. It's sometimes, I think people, 483 00:26:04,190 --> 00:26:06,020 it's a thing too, where everybody's got busy lives 484 00:26:06,020 --> 00:26:09,320 outside of work, and they have to want to invest that time as 485 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,420 an employee. And then sometimes you got to paint it, pick the 486 00:26:11,420 --> 00:26:14,660 picture, form this solution that you're doing today is going 487 00:26:14,660 --> 00:26:18,260 away, or you're all this work that you do is going away. What 488 00:26:18,260 --> 00:26:20,090 are you going to do? And then sometimes it's like, Oh, crap, 489 00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:21,230 yeah, I needed to get that. I need to get moving on that I 490 00:26:21,230 --> 00:26:23,150 need to get moving on that so I don't get kind of left behind. 491 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,160 Keith Hawkey: That's such a unique aspect of of being in 492 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,340 technology, especially today, especially over the last 10 493 00:26:31,370 --> 00:26:35,270 years, because you're right, like the job that you've trained 494 00:26:35,270 --> 00:26:37,610 for and the job that you're doing. I mean that that 495 00:26:37,610 --> 00:26:42,110 technology could be supplemented by a partner in six months or a 496 00:26:42,110 --> 00:26:46,580 year, and now you no longer have to manage it. And then you have 497 00:26:46,580 --> 00:26:50,030 to find either a new technology to manage, or you have to move 498 00:26:50,030 --> 00:26:53,660 into leadership, or you have to find another usefulness of your 499 00:26:53,660 --> 00:26:58,520 time, which is certainly unique to IT and unique to technology, 500 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,540 just by the nature of how the market is moving, and how there 501 00:27:02,540 --> 00:27:06,830 are more and more companies that are able to offer automations 502 00:27:06,830 --> 00:27:10,160 and they're able to offer services that can do the job 503 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,630 better than one individual at a particular company. How do you 504 00:27:14,930 --> 00:27:17,900 like how many, how many people have you interviewed in your 505 00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:22,970 life? How many candidates you think a lot of number on it. 506 00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:24,080 Lot, 507 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,340 Grant Walsh: hundreds, across the career hundreds, yeah, at 508 00:27:28,340 --> 00:27:31,340 least across all the companies I've been at. Yeah, 500 Okay, 509 00:27:31,340 --> 00:27:35,210 okay. I will say the majority of my career is building teams like 510 00:27:35,210 --> 00:27:37,820 it's coming in with either a you're assessing and rebuilding, 511 00:27:37,850 --> 00:27:39,830 or you have nothing. And hey, you get to build from scratch. 512 00:27:39,830 --> 00:27:42,350 And that's why, why I came to Flow Control. So you come there, 513 00:27:42,350 --> 00:27:45,470 you think about that, all those different opportunities I've had 514 00:27:45,470 --> 00:27:47,990 to build teams in every role, you're interviewing 10 people, 515 00:27:47,990 --> 00:27:49,640 or whatever it is, it's a lot of people 516 00:27:49,850 --> 00:27:54,080 Keith Hawkey: In the interview process. How do you convey this 517 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,050 message? Because this is just almost as if, hey, we're 518 00:27:57,050 --> 00:27:59,510 interviewing you for this job. But how do you convey the 519 00:27:59,510 --> 00:28:04,220 message that there may be a chance that you might not be 520 00:28:04,220 --> 00:28:08,060 doing this in a year's time. And we also need to be thinking 521 00:28:08,060 --> 00:28:14,060 about culturally. We need dynamic employees that that that 522 00:28:14,060 --> 00:28:17,240 want to grow and develop and want to chase the challenge, 523 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,650 chase the next technology, chase those cloud opportunities. What 524 00:28:21,650 --> 00:28:24,080 are some of the ways that you're able to kind of filter the 525 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,750 candidate pool. Convey this in an interview, I'm curious about 526 00:28:26,750 --> 00:28:27,950 how that conversation goes. 527 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,320 Grant Walsh: We always listen for, you know, in most 528 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,660 candidates, I ask, you know, even when I'm in there, sure I 529 00:28:32,660 --> 00:28:35,780 took this this role, what's my path to the VP role? What's my 530 00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:38,060 path through the CISO role? What's my path here to where I 531 00:28:38,060 --> 00:28:41,680 want to be? Like, I'm asking the VP of HR, I'm asking them who, 532 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,780 whoever my manager would be at the time, who were, you know, 533 00:28:43,780 --> 00:28:46,120 the CFO that I interviewed with, what's the path there? So we're 534 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,160 listening for those kind of questions too from our 535 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,880 candidates. Like we say one of the biggest things I feel an 536 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,940 interviewing process like one of track of coach people on is 537 00:28:54,940 --> 00:28:58,180 like, when it's time to ask questions, ask questions. Don't 538 00:28:58,180 --> 00:29:00,580 say, I have nothing. You have nothing. You literally, you have 539 00:29:00,580 --> 00:29:02,980 nothing. To ask us, because one of the questions should be 540 00:29:02,980 --> 00:29:05,100 questions should be, hey, I know I'm higher being higher for this 541 00:29:05,100 --> 00:29:07,560 role, and I want to learn this role, and I want to do it great, 542 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,900 but the next role, what do you guys do for that? Like, that's 543 00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:12,120 not a question that I know you're not interested in 544 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,420 growing, and maybe you're just nervous, but then you're not 545 00:29:15,780 --> 00:29:18,180 prepared. So it goes both ways. So we're looking for those types 546 00:29:18,180 --> 00:29:20,600 of that feedback, because in our interviews that they're not. 547 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,840 It's not a stuffy area. You're not sitting across at a table 548 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,240 all by yourself with like five people there just firing 549 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,000 questions off. It is a conversational thing. We try to 550 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,820 joke. You'll see the culture in our team when the interview 551 00:29:31,820 --> 00:29:35,840 happens. So we're looking for that. I mean, for me, I I 552 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,080 cannot. I say it. We want to grow people. And I say that in 553 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,740 an effort to try to get that back and forth. And it really 554 00:29:41,740 --> 00:29:44,020 comes down to the candidate we're listing for certain key 555 00:29:44,020 --> 00:29:46,780 things to say we're looking for them to, you know, where they 556 00:29:46,780 --> 00:29:50,200 want to go. And I'll give an example too, on the security 557 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,140 side. Because, you know, security is a very niche or 558 00:29:53,140 --> 00:29:55,600 specialized area. And just like you know, if you want to have 559 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,420 hired a Salesforce admin, or you hired cloud security, or just 560 00:29:58,420 --> 00:30:01,200 security in general, try. To find the right people who have 561 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,560 the actual experience, not just book experience, but, like, 562 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,560 hands on. I've been in the trenches to fight, you know, the 563 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,900 attackers and people coming in. I've done this, and I've seen 564 00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:12,840 this, not the ones that just go off and play with flipper zero 565 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,780 or, Hey, I've, you know, watched this podcast. Cool. But what are 566 00:30:15,780 --> 00:30:18,360 you doing? And how are you growing? Because security is 567 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,760 evolving rapidly. You know, the attackers are getting better and 568 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,880 better. And better. The use of AI is getting better and better. 569 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,220 So what are you doing? So if we're not hearing that, if 570 00:30:25,220 --> 00:30:27,980 you're not already investing your own time, and that you 571 00:30:27,980 --> 00:30:30,560 haven't set up Cali at home and tried to hack this or hack that, 572 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,840 or you haven't done some basic stuff, then it's like they're 573 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,540 not interested in growing. You just want you got you went to 574 00:30:35,540 --> 00:30:38,480 school, got your degree, now you want the money, but you're not 575 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,640 really want to grow. You feel like it's done and it's not 576 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,120 done. If you got an it, it's not done. Like, if there's just, 577 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,580 should be more of that in the in the interview. And we're trying 578 00:30:45,580 --> 00:30:47,800 to listen for those keys and like, and we're not going to 579 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,560 come out and say, Tell us exactly what you're doing at 580 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,960 home. We're just listening like, hey, what do you what are things 581 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,180 you've kind of got into? What have you tried on your own? And, 582 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,300 oh, this is my first interview out of college. Okay, cool. What 583 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:00,640 have you done? And like, you get, there's so many free, free 584 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,780 opportunities to build your own virtual environments, set up 585 00:31:03,780 --> 00:31:06,360 things on your own, try to hack things, set up Active Directory 586 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,700 in your own. You can do this on your own. That's what we're 587 00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:10,800 looking for, because that means you're willing to take your 588 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,740 time, invest in yourself, and then we can come along there, 589 00:31:13,740 --> 00:31:16,440 and we can kind of, you know, boost that too, by paying for 590 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,600 search, paying put you around the right people, get you in the 591 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,880 right in front of the right tools and solutions. I mean, all 592 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,510 the solutions we have today on the security side, offer 593 00:31:23,510 --> 00:31:25,850 training. Now, you can become an expert on trainings, but if 594 00:31:25,850 --> 00:31:28,010 you're again, if you're not doing that on your own, what am 595 00:31:28,010 --> 00:31:29,690 I to think that you're actually going to change that? When you 596 00:31:29,690 --> 00:31:32,060 join our organization, you're just going to do your job here 597 00:31:32,060 --> 00:31:34,790 and then go home, and then tomorrow, come back in and start 598 00:31:34,790 --> 00:31:37,310 over again. That's gonna be a slow progress forward a year 599 00:31:37,310 --> 00:31:39,380 from now, you'd be like, when do I get to move up? But you 600 00:31:39,380 --> 00:31:41,380 haven't done anything in the last year, other than do your 601 00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:43,840 job, which is great, but you kind of do your job and then 602 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,360 figure out how you get that next step on your own. So you 603 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,670 Aaron Bock: should, you said you're you've throughout your 604 00:31:48,670 --> 00:31:50,800 career, you've been fortunate enough to be able to build 605 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,040 teams. So interview a lot of candidates, bring them on. Stand 606 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:59,320 up teams. Take, let's take the IT leader that may be listening 607 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,280 to this, or who is struggling to create a great culture. So 608 00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:06,490 either they realize that their culture is not as good as it 609 00:32:06,490 --> 00:32:10,150 could be, or they're newer to an organization where the culture 610 00:32:10,150 --> 00:32:13,840 may be lacking for whatever reason. What advice would you 611 00:32:13,870 --> 00:32:17,290 give to someone that doesn't get to just go hire a whole team of 612 00:32:17,290 --> 00:32:21,880 people on how to create a better culture in IT and create the, 613 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,760 you know, the motivation to go learn things on your own, and 614 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,300 the motivation to help out your teammates. How would you do it? 615 00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:29,980 Or what advice would you give that person? 616 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,540 Grant Walsh: So I think when you're building a team, or you 617 00:32:32,540 --> 00:32:35,360 have trying to cultural change is you don't want to be a an 618 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,120 office leader, so I'm staying in my office, and I'm just kind of 619 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,960 barking commands from the office that will kill culture in a 620 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,860 heartbeat. You have to be able to get out of your office, get 621 00:32:44,860 --> 00:32:47,500 in the trenches with the folks, be there, side by side. And 622 00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:50,500 you're trying to first building things out until you have the 623 00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:53,200 expertise that you want or you're looking for, and you have 624 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,300 those leaders that you need, you've got to be out there to be 625 00:32:55,300 --> 00:32:58,300 one of them. And when you mess up, you got to say, Oh, I messed 626 00:32:58,300 --> 00:33:00,540 up. You know, we're all doing this together. Things happen 627 00:33:00,540 --> 00:33:03,480 fast. You react fast. Sometimes you make mistakes because you 628 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,680 react fast. But being honest and transparent and people is a big 629 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,120 boost. I think, you know a lot, one of my roles we that I was in 630 00:33:12,180 --> 00:33:14,580 in South Florida, we went through with a team was called 631 00:33:14,580 --> 00:33:16,740 The Five Dysfunctions of the team, and that, you know that 632 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,840 that bottom base is trust, like having trust, you know they have 633 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,940 to have trust in you, that you're looking up for them, and 634 00:33:22,940 --> 00:33:25,760 vice versa, that you know they've got your back, you know, 635 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,700 making sure that as a leader, I think one of the biggest things 636 00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:32,600 the leader Holly is, is running that buffer, providing that 637 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,280 cover for your team, because the business is looking for somebody 638 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,480 when something goes wrong, to blame and point at. Let it be 639 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,360 the leader. Don't. Let don't ever give a name. Hey, this 640 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,880 person screwed up. No, no, no, no, you're the leader. You took 641 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,980 the money, you took the title. You're going to take the 642 00:33:47,980 --> 00:33:50,200 beating. You know that's your job, to take the blame, and then 643 00:33:50,380 --> 00:33:53,140 you talk it over the team. Hey guys, we messed up here. How can 644 00:33:53,140 --> 00:33:55,840 we make sure it doesn't happen? And while you're not saying, 645 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,420 Hey, I covered for you, if you say that, then you've you've 646 00:33:58,420 --> 00:34:01,260 blown it up too, but it's really we've messed up. How can we do 647 00:34:01,260 --> 00:34:04,260 better? You know, what can we do to make sure it doesn't happen 648 00:34:04,260 --> 00:34:06,960 in the future? Listen, provide that back and forth. The team 649 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,200 picks up on that. Individuals pick up on the fact that as a 650 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,020 leader, you're doing your job to run that cover and to run the 651 00:34:13,020 --> 00:34:15,540 kind of shield, if you will, from the team. You know, that's 652 00:34:15,540 --> 00:34:17,940 something I've always tried to do, is make sure I can run cover 653 00:34:17,940 --> 00:34:20,040 for the team. Allow them to do what they need to do. These are 654 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,400 experts in what they do. Go do go do what you need to do, and 655 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,100 I'll run the cover for you. And just that, that'll build culture 656 00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:28,580 really fast. Build that trust really fast. I think another 657 00:34:28,580 --> 00:34:31,700 thing for leadership is allow people to talk. Hey man, I'm 658 00:34:31,700 --> 00:34:35,480 having concerns with this or that. This tool we bought, or 659 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,580 this tool we're looking at, I don't agree. I don't think it's 660 00:34:37,580 --> 00:34:40,120 right one. Sure. Why don't you think it's the right one? Or why 661 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,300 don't you think this is, is the right, not the right solution? 662 00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:45,640 Let's talk about that. Let's have that open door and do so in 663 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,880 a respectful manner, and have that back and forth. And at the 664 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,700 end of day, if it's something that you know, as a leader you 665 00:34:51,700 --> 00:34:54,280 have to make go with, be able to explain, hey, we chose to go 666 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,860 this route because of A, B and C. I know you had concerns, but 667 00:34:57,100 --> 00:34:59,740 this is why we went that route. Sometimes, in those roles, they 668 00:34:59,740 --> 00:35:02,400 don't. See all the details of the financials, or whatever the 669 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,760 case may be about solution, or whatever it may be that you have 670 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,880 to kind of explain that to them and be transparent about it. So 671 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:11,760 I think transparency and trust are huge in building that 672 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,200 culture and just again, getting out there. Don't be copy behind 673 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,960 a door in an office, and just barking commands is not a place 674 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,960 to be that'll kill culture really fast, 675 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,900 Aaron Bock: trust, transparency, speed. Those are our three core 676 00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:26,960 values at Opkalla. I didn't tell that to Grant before this, but 677 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,080 he just named two of them. I think from my perspective, you 678 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,690 know, again, I see different issues than you all do, but 679 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,500 communication, like the communication to your team, and 680 00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:39,500 I always say, like, I have a huge hole in the middle of my 681 00:35:39,500 --> 00:35:43,070 chest from falling on swords for people, because sometimes we do 682 00:35:43,070 --> 00:35:46,250 mess up, and sometimes we just have to own it, and then 683 00:35:46,340 --> 00:35:49,370 internally figure out, like, what went wrong? How did it go 684 00:35:49,370 --> 00:35:54,200 wrong? But like, we are all humans, and I think deep down, 685 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,220 everyone understands that. And so what people crave the most 686 00:35:58,220 --> 00:36:01,940 from, whether it's their team, their partners, their you know, 687 00:36:01,970 --> 00:36:05,450 spouses, whatever it is in life you want someone to that you 688 00:36:05,450 --> 00:36:08,030 know has your back, and you can communicate with and then when 689 00:36:08,030 --> 00:36:10,550 things go well, they can communicate. When things go 690 00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:14,630 wrong, you also can communicate. So I would, I would second that, 691 00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:18,080 and I would say that 95% of the issues that I deal with as a 692 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,350 leader is related to communication and not setting 693 00:36:21,350 --> 00:36:24,320 expectations, and just not following through. And so, you 694 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,140 know, I think, like you said running, you called it running 695 00:36:27,140 --> 00:36:29,840 cover, I would say falling on swords sometimes, like whatever 696 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,400 it is. But Grant, as we close out, I got one, one for one last 697 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,690 question. Then Keith will, will close this out. But we're in 698 00:36:38,690 --> 00:36:41,360 2025, you know, you've, you've you've been doing this 20 years. 699 00:36:41,390 --> 00:36:47,210 What trends in it excite you, or what trends in in IT leadership, 700 00:36:47,210 --> 00:36:50,180 or leadership in general, like, what do you see coming for 701 00:36:50,180 --> 00:36:52,970 leaders that will be leaders the next five years, or continue to 702 00:36:52,970 --> 00:36:56,030 be leaders the next five years that you care about, you're 703 00:36:56,030 --> 00:36:58,610 concerned about, like, any, any thoughts on that. I think 704 00:36:58,730 --> 00:36:58,880 because, 705 00:36:59,470 --> 00:37:00,970 Grant Walsh: you know, we talked about, keep talking about things 706 00:37:00,970 --> 00:37:05,200 evolving so fast, I think you'll have a there's a lot of leaders 707 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:06,970 in this that been doing it for a while, but you're gonna have 708 00:37:06,970 --> 00:37:10,150 leaders grow quickly that don't have the experience, and that of 709 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:12,850 there's things that you can't learn to book. And I think a lot 710 00:37:12,850 --> 00:37:15,550 of things in terms of dealing with people, leadership is so 711 00:37:15,550 --> 00:37:18,490 much about people. That's about technology. You can learn all 712 00:37:18,490 --> 00:37:21,190 the technology stuff you want to and I think, you know, Keith 713 00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:22,990 mentioned earlier, like people talking about, do they grow into 714 00:37:22,990 --> 00:37:25,510 a leadership role, or do they go into another technology role? 715 00:37:25,930 --> 00:37:28,480 There's a fine line of the people that need to go into 716 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,970 leadership that don't. There are a lot of good technology people 717 00:37:30,970 --> 00:37:33,370 that should never go into leadership, because managing 718 00:37:33,370 --> 00:37:37,090 people is vastly different than managing technology. Whether you 719 00:37:37,090 --> 00:37:40,570 can be a great technology leader, know the technology No, 720 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,930 no systems and processes that are great, but that experience 721 00:37:43,930 --> 00:37:47,110 of leading people, sure, you can go leadership courses, you can 722 00:37:47,110 --> 00:37:51,070 go to different trainings on how to lead people, read books, do a 723 00:37:51,070 --> 00:37:53,080 lot of, you know, quotes, all that fun stuff, but there's 724 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,320 stuff you just can't learn until you've led teams. And I think 725 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,960 that's something that you know, from a concerning standpoint, as 726 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:00,910 we grow fast, you're going to have all these leaders pop up, 727 00:38:01,150 --> 00:38:03,490 so you have to turn into that. There's a lot of learning, and I 728 00:38:03,490 --> 00:38:06,130 think we'll catch up, you know, over time here with that. But 729 00:38:06,130 --> 00:38:09,850 there's a lot of new folks who jump into it because it is so 730 00:38:09,850 --> 00:38:12,100 hot. From a cybersecurity standpoint, cloud standpoint, 731 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,920 there are a lot of folks coming out that want to move up fast, 732 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,770 and naturally, companies will see that progress and say you've 733 00:38:17,770 --> 00:38:19,630 done really good in this role. Is throw you into leadership 734 00:38:19,630 --> 00:38:22,060 role. There gonna be a lot of burn out there. It just happens, 735 00:38:22,090 --> 00:38:24,040 you know, naturally it happened years ago. It'll happen again 736 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,880 here too, with the change in and cloud adoption and 737 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,820 cybersecurity. But, I mean, I think there's still a lot of 738 00:38:30,820 --> 00:38:35,290 exciting, lot of exciting things when it comes to I didn't say AI 739 00:38:35,290 --> 00:38:38,050 was cool, because you got to say AI at least three times in every 740 00:38:38,050 --> 00:38:42,070 chat. But even on leadership side of me. I talked to Gemini, 741 00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:45,130 we talked to Chat GPT, we talked to Copilot. I mean, that and 742 00:38:45,130 --> 00:38:48,970 that, the advancement in the this, you know, the the way to 743 00:38:48,970 --> 00:38:52,510 fill in the skills gap, if you don't have it, but you can ask 744 00:38:52,510 --> 00:38:54,490 it and get an answer, and you have a way to validate That's 745 00:38:54,490 --> 00:38:57,580 truth. I mean, you can grow over your technology skill set. Now, 746 00:38:57,580 --> 00:38:59,980 I wouldn't lean on it 100% because if you ever get an 747 00:38:59,980 --> 00:39:01,690 interview, you'll be called out for it. We're going to know 748 00:39:01,690 --> 00:39:04,300 exactly if you know what you're talking about. But there's a lot 749 00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:07,450 of exciting things going on on the AI side, but it's also a lot 750 00:39:07,450 --> 00:39:10,360 of concerns there too. So there's, it's just a lot, I 751 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,190 think there, again, there's a lot of growth opportunity. 752 00:39:12,190 --> 00:39:15,520 People who grab, grab onto AI, grab onto cyber security and run 753 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,790 with it, will get promoted into roles that just don't have the 754 00:39:18,820 --> 00:39:21,700 experience yet with people. But you know, I didn't have the 755 00:39:21,700 --> 00:39:23,260 experience of people when I first started, either. You just 756 00:39:23,260 --> 00:39:26,500 got to learn it and figure it out. But it's a fun challenge to 757 00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:26,800 have. 758 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,770 Keith Hawkey: Well, Grant out those very insightful we're 759 00:39:30,770 --> 00:39:33,770 going to wrap up here. But before we do, we always like to 760 00:39:33,770 --> 00:39:38,600 ask one question to everyone. I'm going to paint the scene 761 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:44,570 here. Let's say Grant you are in Davos, Switzerland, and you are 762 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:49,010 presenting in front of 1000 of the most powerful CIOs in the 763 00:39:49,010 --> 00:39:53,420 world. If you were going to going to convey one message that 764 00:39:53,420 --> 00:39:58,490 you think is missing at the top end of leadership and global CIO 765 00:39:58,490 --> 00:40:00,260 ism, what would it be? One 766 00:39:59,620 --> 00:40:01,560 Grant Walsh: message? This for the global CIO ism 767 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,560 Aaron Bock: Keith just made up a conference for CIOs in Davos. 768 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,680 Says this as if they need another conference. It 769 00:40:07,540 --> 00:40:10,900 Grant Walsh: sounds cliche, but be, be a CIO of the people like 770 00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:14,230 to understand your team. Be part of that team. I think that's, 771 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,640 you know, we had a VP here for a while. You know, he just left 772 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,120 for the CIO opportunity, but he was the VP of the people the 773 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,640 team. He talked to the team on the regular. He was here part of 774 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,060 the team. I tried again to do that on the regular. It's always 775 00:40:28,420 --> 00:40:30,940 when you're a service desk person or you're a new engineer, 776 00:40:30,940 --> 00:40:33,940 sometimes you feel weird about talking to a VIP or CIO. He 777 00:40:33,940 --> 00:40:36,220 should be break those walls down. That's the biggest thing. 778 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,310 Because again, back to where we talked about, you know, the team 779 00:40:39,310 --> 00:40:41,500 can't trust you because they can't see, because you're often, 780 00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:43,930 it's never, never land, because you're the chief information 781 00:40:43,930 --> 00:40:46,870 officer, then it's hard to follow. It's hard to get behind 782 00:40:46,870 --> 00:40:49,270 that and follow, because you're just, you're that, you know the 783 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,360 distance figure. But that would, that would be the one thing be a 784 00:40:52,420 --> 00:40:56,680 CIO or leader of the people that you're you're leading, making 785 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,680 sure you're transparent, honest people where you can obviously 786 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,660 there's some things, there's some discussions that can't be 787 00:41:01,660 --> 00:41:05,170 had, but just being transparent, honest, and be part of the 788 00:41:05,170 --> 00:41:07,360 people and play lots of golf. 789 00:41:08,740 --> 00:41:10,480 Keith Hawkey: Play lots of golf, I think you're gonna get a 790 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,810 standing ovation for that. That latter part there at the 791 00:41:13,810 --> 00:41:19,570 network, I want to wrap up here. Really appreciate you spending 792 00:41:19,570 --> 00:41:23,110 some time with us this morning. Grant, it's always great to have 793 00:41:24,130 --> 00:41:28,600 insights from Dynamic IT leaders. We consider you a very 794 00:41:28,630 --> 00:41:32,620 impact heavy IT leader. So we really appreciate your time this 795 00:41:32,620 --> 00:41:36,220 morning. We know you have a lot going on and in your traditional 796 00:41:36,220 --> 00:41:41,110 role, and we appreciate everyone that is tuned in to the IT 797 00:41:41,110 --> 00:41:46,240 Matters podcast for support assessing your technology needs, 798 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,180 book a call with one of our Technology Advisors at 799 00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:54,130 opkalla.com. If you found this episode helpful, please share 800 00:41:54,130 --> 00:41:57,970 the podcast with someone who would get value from it and 801 00:41:57,970 --> 00:42:03,310 leave a review on Apple podcast or rate us on Spotify. Thank 802 00:42:03,310 --> 00:42:05,050 you, and we'll catch you next time. 803 00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:07,902 Aaron Bock: Thank you for listening, and we appreciate you 804 00:42:07,963 --> 00:42:11,375 tuning into the IT Matters podcast for support assessing 805 00:42:11,435 --> 00:42:15,152 your technology needs, book a call with one of our Technology 806 00:42:15,213 --> 00:42:18,990 Advisors at opkalla.com. That's opkalla.com. If you found this 807 00:42:19,051 --> 00:42:22,584 episode helpful, please share the podcast with someone who 808 00:42:22,645 --> 00:42:25,935 would get value from it and leave us a review on Apple 809 00:42:25,996 --> 00:42:29,529 podcasts or on Spotify. Thank you for listening and have a 810 00:42:29,590 --> 00:42:30,200 great day.