1 00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:02,430 Welcome back to the episode of the Startup Therapy Podcast. 2 00:00:02,430 --> 00:00:05,070 This is Ryan Rutan, joined as always by my friend, the 3 00:00:05,070 --> 00:00:06,900 founder, and CEO of startup com. 4 00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:08,425 Will, Schroeder will. 5 00:00:09,585 --> 00:00:13,215 Will come as no surprise to you that burnout is a big 6 00:00:13,215 --> 00:00:15,705 thing in the founder space, but does it happen to everybody? 7 00:00:15,705 --> 00:00:17,505 Like have you, you ever been burnt out? 8 00:00:17,565 --> 00:00:18,375 Has that ever happened to you 9 00:00:18,705 --> 00:00:19,875 every single year? 10 00:00:19,905 --> 00:00:20,715 Like clockwork, 11 00:00:22,155 --> 00:00:24,225 September the eighth, if I'm not mistaken. 12 00:00:24,465 --> 00:00:25,335 Yeah, exactly right. 13 00:00:25,335 --> 00:00:28,305 Like we talk about this concept of, you know, what's gonna 14 00:00:28,305 --> 00:00:31,395 happen if I run outta gas, if I burn out, whatever, you 15 00:00:31,395 --> 00:00:34,215 know, with our startup, but we never actually quantify. 16 00:00:34,260 --> 00:00:36,180 What will actually happen? 17 00:00:36,330 --> 00:00:36,420 Right? 18 00:00:36,420 --> 00:00:39,059 What does transpire So today, I think we should talk about 19 00:00:39,059 --> 00:00:43,199 like, you know, how we fear it and we fear this reaper of, you 20 00:00:43,199 --> 00:00:44,699 know, I'm gonna burn out and everything's gonna go to hell. 21 00:00:45,705 --> 00:00:46,665 Then what actually happens then? 22 00:00:46,665 --> 00:00:48,015 How to plan for it, right? 23 00:00:48,045 --> 00:00:50,265 How to actually get past it and see through it. 24 00:00:50,325 --> 00:00:52,965 So Ryan, when you think about getting burnt out, what do 25 00:00:52,965 --> 00:00:54,045 you picture in your mind? 26 00:00:54,045 --> 00:00:55,845 I, I just wanna set this up, you know, what is 27 00:00:55,845 --> 00:00:56,985 that apocalypse scenario? 28 00:00:57,165 --> 00:00:57,675 Yeah. 29 00:00:57,735 --> 00:00:59,325 So I'm gonna go back in time. 30 00:00:59,325 --> 00:01:03,015 I'm gonna go back in time to the first startup and because 31 00:01:03,015 --> 00:01:04,875 I feel very differently about it now, right? 32 00:01:04,875 --> 00:01:07,515 Like, I now understand that burnout isn't a bug, right? 33 00:01:07,515 --> 00:01:08,955 It's just a capacity ceiling, 34 00:01:09,105 --> 00:01:09,375 right? 35 00:01:09,375 --> 00:01:11,115 And it's not a surprise that we burn out. 36 00:01:11,115 --> 00:01:13,500 It's a surprise that we pretend that we. 37 00:01:14,155 --> 00:01:14,665 Don't. 38 00:01:14,995 --> 00:01:15,385 Right. 39 00:01:15,385 --> 00:01:18,925 So look, if I go back in time, I distinctly remember 40 00:01:18,925 --> 00:01:21,865 thinking like, I don't have the energy to do this. 41 00:01:21,865 --> 00:01:23,275 I can't keep this up. 42 00:01:23,275 --> 00:01:26,905 I can't possibly keep all these plates spinning, and 43 00:01:26,905 --> 00:01:31,225 if I don't, it will all just collapse in on itself. 44 00:01:31,650 --> 00:01:35,370 Erupt into flames, and when I do wake up from this little nap 45 00:01:35,370 --> 00:01:37,800 that I need, there'll be nothing but a pile of ashes for me to 46 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:39,690 stare at and, and lament right. 47 00:01:39,690 --> 00:01:41,220 It, it was scorched earth. 48 00:01:41,220 --> 00:01:41,400 Right. 49 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,290 It wasn't like, well, this little thing could 50 00:01:43,290 --> 00:01:44,310 go wrong, or that little thing could go wrong. 51 00:01:44,310 --> 00:01:47,670 It's just like, just immediate full destruction every time. 52 00:01:47,940 --> 00:01:50,550 It's the equivalent of you going up to play soccer. 53 00:01:51,060 --> 00:01:51,270 Yeah. 54 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,780 And saying, the goal is for me to never come off. 55 00:01:55,125 --> 00:01:56,025 Is it the pitch? 56 00:01:56,085 --> 00:01:56,865 Did I get that right? 57 00:01:56,895 --> 00:01:57,615 It's the pitch. 58 00:01:57,675 --> 00:01:58,035 It is 59 00:01:58,035 --> 00:01:58,485 the pitch. 60 00:01:58,845 --> 00:02:00,825 I guess that was the only soccer terminology I knew. 61 00:02:01,245 --> 00:02:02,535 But let's call it the field for a second. 62 00:02:02,715 --> 00:02:05,145 Like literally you saying, I'm gonna go play this game. 63 00:02:05,385 --> 00:02:05,535 Yeah. 64 00:02:05,535 --> 00:02:06,855 And I'm never gonna come off the field. 65 00:02:06,855 --> 00:02:07,155 Never 66 00:02:07,215 --> 00:02:07,575 at all. 67 00:02:07,755 --> 00:02:08,745 Or any other sport. 68 00:02:08,895 --> 00:02:09,015 Right. 69 00:02:09,015 --> 00:02:11,685 And magically I'll still be amazing at it all the time. 70 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,399 Exactly, and And that's actually how we go 71 00:02:14,399 --> 00:02:15,899 into building startups. 72 00:02:15,989 --> 00:02:16,049 Yeah. 73 00:02:16,049 --> 00:02:18,810 We're like, I guess I have to be on the field 24 7 74 00:02:18,899 --> 00:02:19,320 all the time 75 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,019 and never rest in what world Does that make any sense? 76 00:02:22,140 --> 00:02:24,480 Only the founder world apparently, because we 77 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,429 keep seeing people do it even though it doesn't 78 00:02:26,429 --> 00:02:27,540 actually make any sense. 79 00:02:27,690 --> 00:02:28,170 Yeah. 80 00:02:28,170 --> 00:02:30,089 So, you know, from my standpoint, I think 81 00:02:30,089 --> 00:02:30,930 the first thing. 82 00:02:31,485 --> 00:02:34,365 We have to recognize that burnout is actually 83 00:02:34,365 --> 00:02:35,445 part of the process. 84 00:02:35,445 --> 00:02:38,655 It's not this freakish like cancer that, that we've, and 85 00:02:38,655 --> 00:02:40,035 we can't believe is terminal. 86 00:02:40,335 --> 00:02:42,375 It's one of those things where we have to say, okay, this is, 87 00:02:42,405 --> 00:02:47,325 this is going to happen to me over and over and over again. 88 00:02:47,385 --> 00:02:49,455 It took me 20 years to figure that out. 89 00:02:49,605 --> 00:02:52,185 It took me 20 years of running myself into the 90 00:02:52,185 --> 00:02:56,955 ground and for the longest time, the only time I stopped 91 00:02:56,985 --> 00:02:58,155 to recover from burnout. 92 00:02:58,785 --> 00:03:01,065 Was when I injured myself so badly. 93 00:03:01,125 --> 00:03:01,425 Yeah. 94 00:03:01,785 --> 00:03:02,565 I didn't have a choice. 95 00:03:02,745 --> 00:03:05,085 I basically just ran until I got sick every single time. 96 00:03:05,175 --> 00:03:05,595 That's it. 97 00:03:05,595 --> 00:03:08,025 And, and look, the founder pace like is not 98 00:03:08,265 --> 00:03:09,705 sustainable indefinitely. 99 00:03:09,825 --> 00:03:10,215 Right. 100 00:03:10,665 --> 00:03:12,675 While we're out there building traction, you know what 101 00:03:12,675 --> 00:03:13,815 else is gaining traction? 102 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:17,820 Cortisol, sleep, debt, decision fatigue. 103 00:03:17,820 --> 00:03:18,090 Right? 104 00:03:18,090 --> 00:03:21,720 All of those things are gaining ground at exactly the same time, 105 00:03:21,780 --> 00:03:24,269 and so we, we have to take a break and, and I think that 106 00:03:24,359 --> 00:03:27,180 most of us do start the same way that you just described 107 00:03:27,180 --> 00:03:31,050 will, which is that I'll stop when they have to drag me off 108 00:03:31,050 --> 00:03:32,910 the field and they carry me off the field on a gurney. 109 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:34,055 It'll be time to rest. 110 00:03:34,380 --> 00:03:34,620 Right. 111 00:03:34,620 --> 00:03:37,350 Which I guess there's a certain point in life where maybe you 112 00:03:37,350 --> 00:03:38,880 can kind of get away with that. 113 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:40,109 Like when we were in our early twenties, you can 114 00:03:40,109 --> 00:03:41,040 kind of get away with that. 115 00:03:41,570 --> 00:03:42,920 Late twenties, less so. 116 00:03:42,950 --> 00:03:45,470 Early thirties, less so, late thirties, probably 117 00:03:45,470 --> 00:03:47,660 not early forties, definitely not late forties. 118 00:03:47,780 --> 00:03:48,200 Mm-hmm. 119 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:48,740 No way. 120 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:49,610 Not doing it. 121 00:03:49,790 --> 00:03:53,090 We've, we've played attached to this one, but I guess what's 122 00:03:53,090 --> 00:03:56,270 interesting about startups is that unlike jobs where you 123 00:03:56,270 --> 00:03:58,340 know that if you work a lot, you're gonna get a vacation. 124 00:03:58,430 --> 00:04:00,440 Like there is a break at your W2 job. 125 00:04:00,860 --> 00:04:02,570 There is no set break. 126 00:04:02,870 --> 00:04:03,530 No there isn't. 127 00:04:03,740 --> 00:04:08,840 And in our minds like this, chaos continues. 128 00:04:09,690 --> 00:04:10,140 Forever. 129 00:04:10,350 --> 00:04:12,420 And it will actually, it will if we let it. 130 00:04:12,420 --> 00:04:13,980 I think that's the dangerous part, right? 131 00:04:13,980 --> 00:04:17,219 Because we just keep saying, just one more milestone, right? 132 00:04:17,219 --> 00:04:18,659 Like it's the last hill. 133 00:04:19,170 --> 00:04:22,620 But, um, startups are all hill all the time, right? 134 00:04:22,830 --> 00:04:24,990 There's always something else to be done. 135 00:04:25,140 --> 00:04:28,560 And so I think we, we really have to be careful there, right? 136 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,630 To your point, there isn't some marker in time, right? 137 00:04:30,630 --> 00:04:31,890 There's not a spring break coming. 138 00:04:31,890 --> 00:04:34,140 There's not, you know, X number of vacation days. 139 00:04:34,140 --> 00:04:36,090 No, we better use those before the end of the year. 140 00:04:36,420 --> 00:04:38,430 There isn't anything that's gonna make us do that. 141 00:04:39,030 --> 00:04:39,270 Right? 142 00:04:39,270 --> 00:04:41,610 Short of the physical collapse, like you described, 143 00:04:41,850 --> 00:04:42,870 I wanna draw a parallel. 144 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,010 If this were a job, if startups were a job, here's 145 00:04:47,010 --> 00:04:48,360 what that job would look like. 146 00:04:49,050 --> 00:04:51,390 Every week, your boss would come in and say, you're 147 00:04:51,450 --> 00:04:53,940 probably gonna get fired on Friday every week. 148 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:54,420 Okay? 149 00:04:54,750 --> 00:04:54,870 Yeah. 150 00:04:54,900 --> 00:04:58,290 He would indicate that you have no vacation time whatsoever, 151 00:04:58,620 --> 00:05:01,170 and that on Friday when your paychecks come out, yours 152 00:05:01,170 --> 00:05:03,210 might be zero or even worse. 153 00:05:03,270 --> 00:05:04,470 You might owe the company money, 154 00:05:04,890 --> 00:05:05,070 right? 155 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,290 That would be the job you work at, right? 156 00:05:07,470 --> 00:05:09,120 In what place in the world. 157 00:05:09,450 --> 00:05:10,710 Would that be okay with anybody? 158 00:05:11,025 --> 00:05:11,205 Yeah. 159 00:05:11,205 --> 00:05:12,825 And yet that's actually our job. 160 00:05:12,885 --> 00:05:13,995 That's what we signed up for. 161 00:05:14,175 --> 00:05:14,325 Yeah. 162 00:05:14,355 --> 00:05:14,685 Right. 163 00:05:15,075 --> 00:05:17,715 And so like what version is that gonna leave us with? 164 00:05:17,715 --> 00:05:17,925 You know? 165 00:05:17,925 --> 00:05:20,835 So like pumped up and excited forever. 166 00:05:21,255 --> 00:05:21,315 Yeah. 167 00:05:21,315 --> 00:05:24,375 Because most of this shit sucks, right? 168 00:05:24,380 --> 00:05:24,420 Yeah. 169 00:05:24,465 --> 00:05:28,185 Most of what we do, and most of these outcomes are painful. 170 00:05:28,755 --> 00:05:31,695 And the idea that we just forever absorb and 171 00:05:31,695 --> 00:05:35,235 somehow magically it never gets to us is bananas. 172 00:05:35,235 --> 00:05:35,685 You know what I mean? 173 00:05:35,745 --> 00:05:36,555 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 174 00:05:36,555 --> 00:05:38,325 And I think that we look at it as though we've 175 00:05:38,325 --> 00:05:39,375 failed in some way. 176 00:05:39,765 --> 00:05:40,065 Right. 177 00:05:40,065 --> 00:05:42,405 If we do that right, it's not that right. 178 00:05:42,435 --> 00:05:45,344 Burnout isn't some character flaw or something you 179 00:05:45,344 --> 00:05:46,364 should have overcome. 180 00:05:46,364 --> 00:05:47,359 It's just an unpaid bill. 181 00:05:48,225 --> 00:05:50,145 You've been burning the candle at both ends, and 182 00:05:50,145 --> 00:05:52,215 at some point it's gonna meet in the middle, right? 183 00:05:52,215 --> 00:05:53,085 You're gonna flame out. 184 00:05:53,445 --> 00:05:55,815 How you handle that, I think has a lot to do 185 00:05:55,815 --> 00:05:56,415 with how you approach. 186 00:05:56,415 --> 00:05:58,605 Now, of course, I think you and I would both argue, let's 187 00:05:58,605 --> 00:06:00,795 keep that from happening to the extent that we can. 188 00:06:00,795 --> 00:06:01,905 Let's be smarter about this. 189 00:06:02,265 --> 00:06:04,425 But there are also times where you just feel like, 190 00:06:04,605 --> 00:06:07,245 regardless of how tired you are, like I do need to sprint. 191 00:06:07,245 --> 00:06:09,345 I want to run, I want to hit that next milestone. 192 00:06:09,855 --> 00:06:10,245 Right? 193 00:06:10,245 --> 00:06:12,285 But I, I just, I don't think anybody at this point should 194 00:06:12,285 --> 00:06:13,665 be shocked by founder burnout. 195 00:06:13,950 --> 00:06:14,250 Right. 196 00:06:14,370 --> 00:06:14,760 I agree. 197 00:06:14,940 --> 00:06:18,780 Also, we don't have obvious milestones where 198 00:06:18,780 --> 00:06:21,719 it's okay to stop because shit breaks all the time. 199 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:22,260 Yeah. 200 00:06:22,469 --> 00:06:23,789 There's only two outcomes. 201 00:06:24,090 --> 00:06:24,450 Outcome. 202 00:06:24,450 --> 00:06:26,130 One is things are getting way worse and we have 203 00:06:26,130 --> 00:06:26,849 to save everybody. 204 00:06:27,150 --> 00:06:30,479 Or outcome two is things are growing and we have to be all 205 00:06:30,479 --> 00:06:33,570 in it in in order to maintain that growth, either outcome 206 00:06:33,870 --> 00:06:37,049 just drains the hell out of us, and I think the problem is. 207 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,130 There's never an obvious, this is our free parking 208 00:06:41,130 --> 00:06:43,050 where, you know, where we can pause for a second 209 00:06:43,230 --> 00:06:43,500 never 210 00:06:43,500 --> 00:06:45,510 and not be in some sort of danger like that. 211 00:06:45,780 --> 00:06:48,210 Everybody thinks that it must be obvious when that happens. 212 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:49,080 It's not. 213 00:06:49,260 --> 00:06:50,310 You don't have any funding. 214 00:06:50,310 --> 00:06:53,219 You get funding the moment you get funding, it all resets 215 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:54,810 whole new set. 216 00:06:54,810 --> 00:06:55,195 It all resets. 217 00:06:55,380 --> 00:06:56,159 You gotta go complete. 218 00:06:56,159 --> 00:06:56,490 Yeah. 219 00:06:56,585 --> 00:06:56,875 Yeah. 220 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,740 And I think the part of the problem is that I 221 00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:00,000 think everybody's plan. 222 00:07:00,315 --> 00:07:02,325 Is it they have to be Superman or superwoman. 223 00:07:02,625 --> 00:07:03,435 That is the plan. 224 00:07:03,435 --> 00:07:04,935 And that's a bad plan, right? 225 00:07:04,935 --> 00:07:05,655 It's a bad plan. 226 00:07:05,655 --> 00:07:08,085 If your plan is, I just won't burn out, that's 227 00:07:08,085 --> 00:07:08,955 gonna fail, right? 228 00:07:08,985 --> 00:07:11,925 We cannot rely on that because it's certainly not gonna exist. 229 00:07:12,465 --> 00:07:15,225 I didn't understand burnout for, like I said, about 20 years. 230 00:07:15,495 --> 00:07:19,485 I assumed burnout is just what happens when you cannot 231 00:07:19,485 --> 00:07:21,525 function anymore, which is true. 232 00:07:21,585 --> 00:07:24,915 I mean, technically that that is true, but I ran to physical 233 00:07:24,915 --> 00:07:27,105 failure year after year. 234 00:07:27,465 --> 00:07:30,375 All the time, and I assumed that was okay. 235 00:07:30,735 --> 00:07:33,885 I assumed like what you're supposed to do is run your body 236 00:07:33,885 --> 00:07:36,945 and your mind as hard as you can until it all breaks, and 237 00:07:36,945 --> 00:07:39,705 then, then you're sick for a while, so you physically can't 238 00:07:39,705 --> 00:07:42,465 work and then you come back and you just do it all over again. 239 00:07:42,915 --> 00:07:43,065 Yeah, 240 00:07:43,125 --> 00:07:46,545 and I guess nobody tapped me on the shoulder and said, Hey dude, 241 00:07:46,545 --> 00:07:47,655 that's actually a terrible idea. 242 00:07:47,655 --> 00:07:48,315 Stop doing it. 243 00:07:48,375 --> 00:07:49,065 No one. 244 00:07:49,305 --> 00:07:49,395 Right. 245 00:07:49,395 --> 00:07:50,115 Nobody in 20 years. 246 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:50,160 Yeah. 247 00:07:51,060 --> 00:07:52,200 Ever told me to stop doing it. 248 00:07:52,530 --> 00:07:54,510 I think part of it is that it's, it can be hard 249 00:07:54,510 --> 00:07:55,469 to see from the outside. 250 00:07:55,590 --> 00:07:55,770 Right. 251 00:07:55,770 --> 00:07:57,780 I think it can be hard to see because it's something else that 252 00:07:57,929 --> 00:08:00,810 founders were, we're really good at is running ourselves into 253 00:08:00,810 --> 00:08:02,190 the ground while masking it. 254 00:08:02,190 --> 00:08:02,429 Right. 255 00:08:02,429 --> 00:08:03,690 We are that need. 256 00:08:03,750 --> 00:08:03,870 Oh yeah. 257 00:08:03,870 --> 00:08:06,030 The fire all around, like this is fine. 258 00:08:06,060 --> 00:08:06,359 Right. 259 00:08:06,359 --> 00:08:09,900 Like that's us to a t Well, do you have a burnout trigger list? 260 00:08:09,929 --> 00:08:12,179 Like do you have a, a list of symptoms or things 261 00:08:12,179 --> 00:08:13,260 that you watch out for? 262 00:08:13,469 --> 00:08:14,099 I do now. 263 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:15,960 I didn't before I do now. 264 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,590 It's a great question I do now, because before again, 265 00:08:19,590 --> 00:08:21,750 I just was like, oh, just push harder, drink more 266 00:08:21,750 --> 00:08:23,250 caffeine, push harder, right? 267 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:24,450 Sleep less, whatever. 268 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,170 And I realize now that at which point I lose my creativity. 269 00:08:28,575 --> 00:08:29,924 That's my health bar. 270 00:08:29,924 --> 00:08:31,789 Uh, you know, Uhhuh, we always talk in video game terms. 271 00:08:31,789 --> 00:08:32,030 Yeah. 272 00:08:32,059 --> 00:08:32,350 Yeah. 273 00:08:32,355 --> 00:08:33,044 That's my health bar. 274 00:08:33,314 --> 00:08:35,534 Like at which point my creativity has gone into zero, 275 00:08:35,834 --> 00:08:38,924 that's when I can tell like, I can't write, you know, I 276 00:08:38,924 --> 00:08:41,444 can't write copy, I can't come up with a new product idea. 277 00:08:41,444 --> 00:08:44,655 Like at that point I'm just like, I'm this the rolled 278 00:08:44,655 --> 00:08:45,975 up tube of toothpaste. 279 00:08:46,155 --> 00:08:46,454 Yeah. 280 00:08:47,235 --> 00:08:48,045 And it happens 281 00:08:48,045 --> 00:08:48,645 left to squeeze 282 00:08:48,645 --> 00:08:51,675 in fourth quarter of every single year. 283 00:08:51,855 --> 00:08:51,944 Yeah. 284 00:08:51,944 --> 00:08:53,385 Like now I see it, right? 285 00:08:53,385 --> 00:08:53,564 Yeah. 286 00:08:54,010 --> 00:08:55,540 Oh, now we, we start talking about it. 287 00:08:55,540 --> 00:08:57,100 We start talking about it in October, right? 288 00:08:57,100 --> 00:08:58,300 We start talking about where you're at with the 289 00:08:58,300 --> 00:09:00,580 gas tank and the fact that it's coming, right? 290 00:09:00,580 --> 00:09:01,030 It's coming. 291 00:09:01,030 --> 00:09:01,990 We're about to run outta gas, 292 00:09:02,110 --> 00:09:03,730 and I'm not good at taking breaks. 293 00:09:03,850 --> 00:09:04,570 I wish I could. 294 00:09:05,175 --> 00:09:07,665 Tell you like, I have this great, you know, secret 295 00:09:07,665 --> 00:09:08,745 weapon of taking breaks. 296 00:09:09,255 --> 00:09:10,395 I'm not good at taking breaks. 297 00:09:10,395 --> 00:09:13,785 Like I sit at my computer from the moment I wake up, and so the 298 00:09:13,785 --> 00:09:17,714 moment I go to bed, I don't take any breaks during the day when 299 00:09:17,714 --> 00:09:19,875 I work, like when I'm building my house on the weekends, 300 00:09:20,175 --> 00:09:21,405 I don't take any breaks. 301 00:09:21,405 --> 00:09:22,694 I mean, you've been with me like doing this. 302 00:09:22,694 --> 00:09:23,025 I've been there. 303 00:09:23,355 --> 00:09:23,550 I know. 304 00:09:24,015 --> 00:09:26,055 It doesn't occur to me it should. 305 00:09:26,204 --> 00:09:26,415 Right. 306 00:09:26,415 --> 00:09:28,425 And this a rational thing to do, and I'm not knocking it 307 00:09:28,425 --> 00:09:30,824 and I'm not championing the fact that I don't take breaks. 308 00:09:30,824 --> 00:09:32,084 I'm saying it's, it's a failure. 309 00:09:32,505 --> 00:09:36,135 But because of that, I'm constantly like taking myself 310 00:09:36,135 --> 00:09:38,415 into hyper speed toward burnout. 311 00:09:38,805 --> 00:09:38,984 Yep. 312 00:09:39,045 --> 00:09:39,255 Right. 313 00:09:39,255 --> 00:09:41,145 If I took breaks, I'd probably be able to pace myself, 314 00:09:41,535 --> 00:09:42,525 but unfortunately I don't. 315 00:09:43,094 --> 00:09:46,125 However, the one thing I have come to learn is that 316 00:09:46,125 --> 00:09:47,474 there is a breaking point. 317 00:09:47,970 --> 00:09:50,460 Mine happens in Q4 of every year, but by the time I 318 00:09:50,460 --> 00:09:55,050 hit Q4 specifically by December, I am useless. 319 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:57,900 Yeah, I'm absolutely useless. 320 00:09:58,140 --> 00:10:00,180 And I used, used to just pound through. 321 00:10:00,329 --> 00:10:00,810 Right. 322 00:10:01,170 --> 00:10:03,600 And now, you know, and we will talk about this later. 323 00:10:03,900 --> 00:10:05,910 I don't like, I'm hyper aware. 324 00:10:06,449 --> 00:10:06,990 Here's why. 325 00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:08,905 Because I used to picture. 326 00:10:09,660 --> 00:10:13,770 What would happen if I stopped and it was apocalyptic, right? 327 00:10:13,770 --> 00:10:14,190 It was. 328 00:10:14,430 --> 00:10:17,310 It was the walking dead the day after tomorrow, apocalyptic. 329 00:10:17,580 --> 00:10:22,980 If I stopped killing myself for one day, the whole 330 00:10:22,980 --> 00:10:24,150 house of cards falls down. 331 00:10:24,705 --> 00:10:25,035 Right. 332 00:10:25,575 --> 00:10:26,895 That was the picture in my mind. 333 00:10:26,955 --> 00:10:29,205 H how, how do you see it when you, when you think of 334 00:10:29,505 --> 00:10:30,765 I'm no longer contributing. 335 00:10:30,765 --> 00:10:31,815 What's the chain of events? 336 00:10:32,025 --> 00:10:32,355 Yeah. 337 00:10:32,355 --> 00:10:33,795 Oh, it was the, it was the same thing, man. 338 00:10:33,885 --> 00:10:34,245 Right. 339 00:10:34,245 --> 00:10:37,545 You know, I, I used to grossly overestimate my 340 00:10:37,545 --> 00:10:41,265 uniqueness and, and input and underestimate the team, right? 341 00:10:41,265 --> 00:10:42,855 Like, it's just that, that's a great way to put it. 342 00:10:42,915 --> 00:10:45,375 Look in the beginning, and I think it does come from a very 343 00:10:45,375 --> 00:10:47,865 specific place, right in the beginning, there is no team. 344 00:10:47,865 --> 00:10:48,405 It's you, 345 00:10:48,405 --> 00:10:48,645 right? 346 00:10:48,645 --> 00:10:48,975 It's just you. 347 00:10:48,975 --> 00:10:49,185 It's you. 348 00:10:49,575 --> 00:10:50,895 And so if you stop doing. 349 00:10:51,060 --> 00:10:52,349 Everything stops, right? 350 00:10:52,349 --> 00:10:55,500 But at some point, like that changes, but we, we forget that. 351 00:10:55,829 --> 00:10:56,880 I think it's one of those things. 352 00:10:56,939 --> 00:10:59,010 At some point we start to realize that like we can 353 00:10:59,010 --> 00:11:01,680 start to move from this scarcity mindset into more 354 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:03,689 of an abundance mindset and go like, okay, it's, it's 355 00:11:03,689 --> 00:11:06,180 not actually like I, I'm not the only resource here. 356 00:11:06,484 --> 00:11:08,915 There's abundant resource, we can take advantage of it. 357 00:11:09,244 --> 00:11:11,104 And honestly, the more we communicate that kind of stuff, 358 00:11:11,104 --> 00:11:12,155 the more open we about this. 359 00:11:12,275 --> 00:11:15,364 The fact that you know the team, everyone knows there's 360 00:11:15,364 --> 00:11:16,984 gonna be this point in the year where you're gonna need 361 00:11:16,984 --> 00:11:18,665 to disappear for a bit and recharge your batteries. 362 00:11:18,844 --> 00:11:19,234 Great. 363 00:11:19,234 --> 00:11:21,094 Everybody's geared up and ready for that, right? 364 00:11:21,094 --> 00:11:24,844 It's when we try to keep it a secret or we pretend that we are 365 00:11:24,844 --> 00:11:26,344 like this, this sole resource. 366 00:11:27,030 --> 00:11:29,040 That can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? 367 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:29,880 Because then all of a sudden I agree. 368 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,250 You just dip out and everybody's like, what 369 00:11:32,250 --> 00:11:33,120 the hell just happened? 370 00:11:33,420 --> 00:11:34,980 That's bad, right? 371 00:11:35,130 --> 00:11:37,530 Our fear story, I think, is that like product stops, 372 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:42,060 customers flee, investors riot team collapses, right? 373 00:11:42,060 --> 00:11:44,490 And it gets published on the front page of every 374 00:11:44,490 --> 00:11:45,600 major news outlet, right? 375 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,970 That's the way we think it's going to happen. 376 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,069 It reminds me of, you know, the concept of Atlas 377 00:11:50,069 --> 00:11:50,590 holding up the world. 378 00:11:50,910 --> 00:11:50,969 Yeah. 379 00:11:51,719 --> 00:11:54,810 And we get this concept in our head that if we shrug again, 380 00:11:54,810 --> 00:11:57,030 Alice shrugged, my favorite book, if we shrug, the whole 381 00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:58,230 thing goes away, right? 382 00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:58,319 Yes. 383 00:11:58,829 --> 00:12:01,050 And here's what's interesting about that. 384 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:02,550 It's true. 385 00:12:03,030 --> 00:12:05,219 It just takes a lot longer than you think. 386 00:12:05,850 --> 00:12:06,089 Yeah, 387 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:06,449 right? 388 00:12:06,780 --> 00:12:08,370 It's not as like cause and effect. 389 00:12:08,370 --> 00:12:10,740 Now there's some founder that's listening right now, 390 00:12:10,740 --> 00:12:12,990 and it's like what you're saying is, doesn't apply to me. 391 00:12:13,260 --> 00:12:14,760 I'm billing hours every month. 392 00:12:14,790 --> 00:12:16,680 If I stop billing hours, I stop getting paid. 393 00:12:16,829 --> 00:12:17,250 I get it. 394 00:12:17,564 --> 00:12:19,755 Totally get it, but what's missing there? 395 00:12:20,025 --> 00:12:22,844 When we think about the major categories that are of failure, 396 00:12:22,964 --> 00:12:25,515 like our apocalyptic categories, let's break 'em down. 397 00:12:25,844 --> 00:12:28,245 We've got customers, we've got staff. 398 00:12:28,425 --> 00:12:29,295 We've got investors. 399 00:12:29,295 --> 00:12:30,435 Assuming we have investors, right? 400 00:12:30,435 --> 00:12:31,545 Those are usually the big three. 401 00:12:31,995 --> 00:12:33,405 From the customer standpoint. 402 00:12:33,675 --> 00:12:35,025 Sometimes they don't even notice. 403 00:12:35,714 --> 00:12:39,079 Like sometimes you're gone and they don't even notice. 404 00:12:39,079 --> 00:12:39,240 Oh, 405 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:39,560 you were gone. 406 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:39,839 Yeah. 407 00:12:39,844 --> 00:12:39,885 Yeah. 408 00:12:40,125 --> 00:12:40,275 Right. 409 00:12:42,495 --> 00:12:43,995 I mean, think about that for a second. 410 00:12:44,354 --> 00:12:46,935 Imagine you were so hung up. 411 00:12:47,445 --> 00:12:49,875 If you took a break, your customer would go ballistic 412 00:12:50,415 --> 00:12:53,115 and then you're sick or some, you know, life event happens 413 00:12:53,115 --> 00:12:56,325 or whatever and you're gone and they didn't notice. 414 00:12:56,445 --> 00:12:56,595 Yeah. 415 00:12:56,625 --> 00:12:58,215 Like, huh. 416 00:12:58,635 --> 00:12:59,115 Okay. 417 00:12:59,265 --> 00:13:00,885 With your team, and again, we'll break this down a little bit 418 00:13:00,885 --> 00:13:03,615 more, but with your team, it's like, if I'm gone, the team 419 00:13:03,615 --> 00:13:04,815 is gonna be in total chaos. 420 00:13:04,995 --> 00:13:05,145 Yeah, 421 00:13:05,685 --> 00:13:06,225 maybe. 422 00:13:06,735 --> 00:13:06,915 Yeah. 423 00:13:06,915 --> 00:13:07,335 Are they? 424 00:13:07,395 --> 00:13:07,575 Yeah. 425 00:13:07,785 --> 00:13:10,605 And then my favorite is if I'm gone, the investors are gonna 426 00:13:10,605 --> 00:13:13,605 like grab the pitchforks and like come mob style to my house. 427 00:13:14,385 --> 00:13:16,965 Nope, that's absolutely not gonna happen. 428 00:13:17,415 --> 00:13:20,025 How do you see of those different categories, how do you 429 00:13:20,025 --> 00:13:21,555 see that actually breaking down? 430 00:13:22,065 --> 00:13:24,255 Look, it's just not reality, right? 431 00:13:24,255 --> 00:13:26,205 Look, at some point it might be, again, like if it's really, 432 00:13:26,205 --> 00:13:28,755 really early stage and you're the only thing, but then also 433 00:13:28,755 --> 00:13:31,245 like what is actually gonna be lost at that point, right? 434 00:13:31,245 --> 00:13:31,255 Right. 435 00:13:31,255 --> 00:13:34,995 If your business is still so young and so fragile that it 436 00:13:34,995 --> 00:13:36,225 could completely fall apart. 437 00:13:36,690 --> 00:13:37,770 How long is it actually gonna take you to put 438 00:13:37,770 --> 00:13:38,550 it back together again? 439 00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:38,970 Right, 440 00:13:38,970 --> 00:13:39,180 right. 441 00:13:39,270 --> 00:13:42,120 Your six Legos in, it's not a whole lot of rebuild. 442 00:13:42,155 --> 00:13:42,505 Right, 443 00:13:42,505 --> 00:13:42,625 right, 444 00:13:42,630 --> 00:13:42,780 right. 445 00:13:42,780 --> 00:13:45,300 So I think that we have to recognize that at some point, 446 00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:46,710 what you should be trying to do. 447 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:47,160 Right. 448 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,460 Let's just assume that in the early stage that the founder 449 00:13:50,460 --> 00:13:51,690 is the load-bearing wall. 450 00:13:52,045 --> 00:13:52,525 Right. 451 00:13:52,795 --> 00:13:54,835 You should be trying to become one of many 452 00:13:54,835 --> 00:13:55,945 buttresses at some point. 453 00:13:55,945 --> 00:13:58,285 There should be a lot of other things that are holding 454 00:13:58,285 --> 00:14:01,045 that business together, whether those are people, 455 00:14:01,045 --> 00:14:03,415 systems, tools, whatever. 456 00:14:03,925 --> 00:14:04,195 Right? 457 00:14:04,195 --> 00:14:06,895 And so I think that the reality there is that. 458 00:14:07,250 --> 00:14:09,110 Most of these systems aren't as fragile as we, 459 00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:10,130 as we would like to think. 460 00:14:10,130 --> 00:14:12,110 Part of that is I think just our own ego telling us that 461 00:14:12,110 --> 00:14:14,750 we're we're super important and echoing back to the 462 00:14:14,750 --> 00:14:17,630 beginning when we were the only thing, and part of it's 463 00:14:17,630 --> 00:14:19,100 just fear of identity, right? 464 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:21,830 It's if I'm not constantly producing, what am I worth? 465 00:14:22,110 --> 00:14:22,530 Right. 466 00:14:22,890 --> 00:14:26,310 Biggest problem with all of this is the irony here is that 467 00:14:26,340 --> 00:14:31,560 this apocalyptic fantasy is what keeps founders grinding 468 00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:33,330 until it actually becomes real. 469 00:14:33,330 --> 00:14:35,310 Because we do wear ourselves out, we wear the team out, 470 00:14:35,310 --> 00:14:38,340 and then all of this stuff can actually come to pass. 471 00:14:38,340 --> 00:14:40,650 But if we, if behave more realistically, right, and 472 00:14:40,650 --> 00:14:42,570 we do give ourselves those breaks, and we do become 473 00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:45,840 a little more cognizant of what will actually happen. 474 00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:49,410 Then I think we can become far more comfortable with the idea 475 00:14:49,410 --> 00:14:52,079 that we don't have to hold the entire world on our shoulders 476 00:14:52,199 --> 00:14:53,489 all the time, some of the time. 477 00:14:53,699 --> 00:14:54,089 Sure. 478 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:54,479 Right. 479 00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:58,439 But burnout, panic is just your ego writing disaster. 480 00:14:58,439 --> 00:14:59,699 Fan fiction, right? 481 00:14:59,699 --> 00:15:02,010 Like that's what this shit is, right? 482 00:15:02,339 --> 00:15:05,069 Believe me, mine was quick with the pen in the early stages. 483 00:15:05,069 --> 00:15:06,750 Now, like I said, I think we, you and I have both gotten 484 00:15:06,750 --> 00:15:09,120 more comfortable with this over time, but at the early stages, 485 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,589 like get it, it is terrifying. 486 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,199 It feels like it is not, but it feels like 487 00:15:13,380 --> 00:15:14,670 getting out of the car. 488 00:15:14,995 --> 00:15:16,615 While it's still moving, right? 489 00:15:16,615 --> 00:15:18,835 And expecting bad things not to happen, right? 490 00:15:18,835 --> 00:15:19,885 You can't do that. 491 00:15:20,245 --> 00:15:22,165 The reality is that's just not the case. 492 00:15:22,645 --> 00:15:25,225 When I was first learning to play hockey, my hockey coach 493 00:15:25,435 --> 00:15:28,105 said, I want you on the ice for two minutes, no more Uhhuh. 494 00:15:28,345 --> 00:15:30,865 And he said, I want you to skate as hard as you can for two 495 00:15:30,865 --> 00:15:33,625 minutes so that at the end of two minutes your legs are mush. 496 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,320 For folks that haven't played hockey before, try 497 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,630 skating as hard as you can in the middle of a game. 498 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,150 If you can make it for two minutes, you are, you either 499 00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:45,120 have amazing stamina or you probably play in the NHL, right? 500 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,060 Like if you do this, this right and you skate as 501 00:15:48,060 --> 00:15:50,220 hard as you can, which is, you know, parallel to, to 502 00:15:50,220 --> 00:15:52,110 working hard, you're gassed. 503 00:15:52,350 --> 00:15:52,500 Yeah. 504 00:15:52,500 --> 00:15:54,690 Meaning if you were still on the ice in minute 505 00:15:54,690 --> 00:15:56,220 three, you're useless. 506 00:15:56,220 --> 00:15:57,120 You were a liability. 507 00:15:57,330 --> 00:15:57,600 Yep. 508 00:15:57,780 --> 00:15:58,020 Right? 509 00:15:58,020 --> 00:16:00,000 So, which is why he said get the hell off the ice. 510 00:16:00,780 --> 00:16:02,280 And I, I never forgot that. 511 00:16:02,310 --> 00:16:05,670 I never forgot why I was getting off the ice in two 512 00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:08,880 minutes because there was another guy that I was tagging 513 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,920 in that was fresh legs. 514 00:16:10,949 --> 00:16:11,189 Yep. 515 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:12,420 That was actually gonna score a goal. 516 00:16:12,660 --> 00:16:12,930 Yep. 517 00:16:13,319 --> 00:16:14,040 Three minutes. 518 00:16:14,189 --> 00:16:15,270 I wasn't gonna score a goal. 519 00:16:15,689 --> 00:16:15,930 Right. 520 00:16:15,930 --> 00:16:19,949 Yeah, he was, I was a liability at burnout. 521 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,790 I, it took me a long time to understand how that worked. 522 00:16:23,939 --> 00:16:27,330 Yeah, and I think it does also go back to something else, which 523 00:16:27,330 --> 00:16:30,569 is that there, there is a bit of a fear component there, right? 524 00:16:30,569 --> 00:16:32,910 Meaning that if it feels like I can just tag somebody 525 00:16:32,910 --> 00:16:35,520 else to do that, there's this feel that am I. 526 00:16:35,895 --> 00:16:37,515 As necessary as I thought I was. 527 00:16:37,515 --> 00:16:37,695 Right. 528 00:16:37,695 --> 00:16:39,405 And I think that as founders, we do struggle with that. 529 00:16:39,410 --> 00:16:39,700 Right? 530 00:16:39,705 --> 00:16:39,885 Right. 531 00:16:39,885 --> 00:16:42,255 So it's like, do I really, do I even want to be able to 532 00:16:42,255 --> 00:16:44,745 tag somebody else in to do what I do, but I, I'm the only 533 00:16:44,745 --> 00:16:45,705 one that can do what I do. 534 00:16:45,765 --> 00:16:46,005 Right. 535 00:16:46,005 --> 00:16:46,785 Well, probably not true. 536 00:16:47,145 --> 00:16:49,335 You know, something that's really funny about 537 00:16:49,335 --> 00:16:52,425 everything we talk about here is that none of it. 538 00:16:52,785 --> 00:16:53,295 Is new. 539 00:16:53,535 --> 00:16:56,115 Everything you're dealing with right now has been done a 540 00:16:56,115 --> 00:16:59,954 thousand times before you, which means the answer already exists. 541 00:16:59,954 --> 00:17:01,844 You may just not know it, but that's okay. 542 00:17:02,204 --> 00:17:04,004 That's kind of what we're here to do. 543 00:17:04,004 --> 00:17:06,675 We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually 544 00:17:06,675 --> 00:17:10,815 solve these problems all dayLong@groups.startups.com. 545 00:17:10,875 --> 00:17:12,435 So if any of this sounds 546 00:17:12,435 --> 00:17:16,095 familiar, stop guessing about what to do, let us just 547 00:17:16,095 --> 00:17:18,555 give you the answers to the test and be done with it. 548 00:17:19,004 --> 00:17:22,244 So, aside from taking a break, if I say if I burn out. 549 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,680 If I run outta gas, my customers are all gonna bail. 550 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,110 The product will never see the light of day, blah, blah, blah. 551 00:17:28,110 --> 00:17:28,170 Yeah. 552 00:17:28,290 --> 00:17:29,040 Everything's gonna fail. 553 00:17:29,550 --> 00:17:31,890 My staff will go crazy. 554 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:32,460 Right. 555 00:17:32,490 --> 00:17:34,170 They, they'll, they'll ride in the streets. 556 00:17:34,380 --> 00:17:34,740 Right? 557 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:36,720 Uh, my investors will all pull out, they'll get 558 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:37,680 angry at me, et cetera. 559 00:17:37,860 --> 00:17:39,240 This is what we picture though. 560 00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:41,250 All of these things will happen. 561 00:17:41,730 --> 00:17:45,120 What we don't understand is that these nightmares 562 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:46,980 usually never come to pass. 563 00:17:46,980 --> 00:17:47,040 Yeah. 564 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:48,480 Like, not even remotely true. 565 00:17:48,780 --> 00:17:49,050 Yeah. 566 00:17:49,530 --> 00:17:51,930 It took me getting burnt out. 567 00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:55,770 Being forced to see those outcomes, to be like, 568 00:17:56,430 --> 00:17:57,420 dude, what the hell? 569 00:17:57,660 --> 00:17:57,930 Right. 570 00:17:57,930 --> 00:17:59,760 Like none of that stuff happened. 571 00:18:00,090 --> 00:18:00,300 Yeah. 572 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,270 And now because Ryan, you and I work with countless 573 00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:06,180 other startups, we get to see the world through their eyes 574 00:18:06,690 --> 00:18:09,780 and it like these nightmares rarely, like, hardly ever 575 00:18:09,780 --> 00:18:11,760 happen, and certainly not see the extent that we 576 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:12,540 think they're gonna happen. 577 00:18:12,540 --> 00:18:12,790 You know what I mean? 578 00:18:13,365 --> 00:18:16,245 I think, you know, as, as we learn to step back, we 579 00:18:16,245 --> 00:18:19,425 realize that the, the system often self-corrects, right? 580 00:18:19,425 --> 00:18:22,275 The team rises to the occasion, the customers stay. 581 00:18:22,875 --> 00:18:26,085 Investors didn't give a shit before, still don't give a shit. 582 00:18:26,085 --> 00:18:26,415 Right. 583 00:18:26,415 --> 00:18:27,615 They know that most of these are gonna gonna 584 00:18:27,615 --> 00:18:28,305 fail, doesn't matter. 585 00:18:28,305 --> 00:18:28,575 Right. 586 00:18:28,875 --> 00:18:30,975 The thing that I think is important to remember 587 00:18:30,975 --> 00:18:34,935 here is also if we wait until it truly is that 588 00:18:34,935 --> 00:18:38,145 nightmare moment where we're completely beat up and burnt. 589 00:18:38,175 --> 00:18:38,235 Yeah. 590 00:18:38,235 --> 00:18:40,995 And just gone and gasp before we decide, we, we somehow 591 00:18:40,995 --> 00:18:41,835 think that this is noble. 592 00:18:41,835 --> 00:18:43,215 I'll just go until I break. 593 00:18:43,745 --> 00:18:46,504 Well then you're stress testing the team all at once 594 00:18:46,504 --> 00:18:47,794 or the system all at once. 595 00:18:47,794 --> 00:18:49,685 Whereas if we just take some of these little breaks, 596 00:18:49,685 --> 00:18:52,955 give ourself a little more grace as we go, you actually 597 00:18:52,955 --> 00:18:55,235 get a chance for that team, for the customers, for the 598 00:18:55,235 --> 00:18:58,024 systems to build a little resilience as it goes. 599 00:18:58,024 --> 00:18:58,145 Right? 600 00:18:58,145 --> 00:18:59,254 It's like building any muscle. 601 00:18:59,524 --> 00:19:02,135 I think when we save it all until, until it really does 602 00:19:02,135 --> 00:19:05,435 look apocalyptic, then it has a better chance of actually 603 00:19:05,435 --> 00:19:06,844 being APO apocalyptic. 604 00:19:07,095 --> 00:19:07,575 Right, right. 605 00:19:07,575 --> 00:19:10,064 But I think really the point here, like the 606 00:19:10,064 --> 00:19:11,175 world doesn't stop, right? 607 00:19:11,175 --> 00:19:13,425 Neither does your business gaps get filled. 608 00:19:13,425 --> 00:19:14,625 Things continue to happen. 609 00:19:14,955 --> 00:19:18,135 I remember we had raised our series seed, right? 610 00:19:18,554 --> 00:19:20,054 And we'd burnt through it and we've been looking for 611 00:19:20,054 --> 00:19:21,284 a series A for a long time. 612 00:19:21,375 --> 00:19:23,985 Uh, we had a term sheet, it was gonna get closed and the 613 00:19:23,985 --> 00:19:25,665 world changed and we didn't. 614 00:19:26,115 --> 00:19:28,034 And I remember I sat down with one of our board members, 615 00:19:28,365 --> 00:19:30,945 and I remember I probably spent every bit of a year 616 00:19:30,945 --> 00:19:32,655 playing scenarios in my head. 617 00:19:33,435 --> 00:19:35,564 As to what he would say when I said, Hey, like, 618 00:19:35,864 --> 00:19:36,675 I think we're screwed. 619 00:19:36,824 --> 00:19:37,604 Like actually screwed. 620 00:19:37,610 --> 00:19:40,155 Like, like we're beyond the point where if anybody's 621 00:19:40,155 --> 00:19:41,895 gonna give us money, they would've given it to us by now. 622 00:19:42,254 --> 00:19:43,215 Uh, and we're not there. 623 00:19:44,084 --> 00:19:48,794 And I had all of these same thing, nightmare scenarios as to 624 00:19:48,794 --> 00:19:51,495 how this was going to go, like how this was gonna transpire. 625 00:19:51,975 --> 00:19:55,004 And his response was more like, oh, that's interesting. 626 00:19:55,710 --> 00:19:58,230 Like could not care less. 627 00:19:58,500 --> 00:19:58,710 Right? 628 00:19:58,710 --> 00:19:58,770 Yeah. 629 00:19:58,770 --> 00:20:01,770 I was blown like I thought he was G like it was gonna be this 630 00:20:01,770 --> 00:20:03,390 big explosive boardroom battle. 631 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:03,870 Yeah. 632 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,010 I basically told him that McDonald's didn't have 633 00:20:08,010 --> 00:20:09,390 his favorite Happy Meal. 634 00:20:09,750 --> 00:20:09,990 Yeah. 635 00:20:10,140 --> 00:20:11,670 And he was like, oh, that's unfortunate. 636 00:20:11,670 --> 00:20:14,310 I mean, with that level of caring. 637 00:20:14,550 --> 00:20:14,850 Right. 638 00:20:14,850 --> 00:20:17,760 And I was like, dude, I've been racking myself for 639 00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:21,720 12 months worrying about this conversation, thinking 640 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,210 it was gonna be something else and it was nothing, 641 00:20:24,750 --> 00:20:24,990 nothing. 642 00:20:25,365 --> 00:20:28,755 I don't know that investors love surprises, but I also 643 00:20:28,755 --> 00:20:31,905 don't think that any of them would be surprised to find out 644 00:20:31,905 --> 00:20:33,705 that a founder needed a break. 645 00:20:33,705 --> 00:20:34,065 Right. 646 00:20:34,065 --> 00:20:36,435 And I think the, the problem there is generally like, and 647 00:20:36,645 --> 00:20:38,595 even in this case, like you said, you tried to keep it, 648 00:20:38,595 --> 00:20:41,025 you know, kind of hidden for a, a long period of time. 649 00:20:41,265 --> 00:20:41,475 Yeah. 650 00:20:41,595 --> 00:20:43,515 But I, I think the problem really there is, is more 651 00:20:43,515 --> 00:20:45,195 secrecy and not recovery. 652 00:20:45,195 --> 00:20:45,405 Right. 653 00:20:45,410 --> 00:20:46,815 Like, had you just taken the time you needed to 654 00:20:46,815 --> 00:20:49,125 recover, it would've been fine as well, right? 655 00:20:49,125 --> 00:20:51,105 Like, I think they would've been equally fine with that, 656 00:20:51,495 --> 00:20:52,965 but that's why I ran myself to the ground. 657 00:20:53,460 --> 00:20:55,230 Because I thought this was gonna be some 658 00:20:55,379 --> 00:20:56,580 massive, you know, revolt. 659 00:20:57,210 --> 00:20:59,970 And what I didn't know, again, this is 20 years ago, 660 00:21:00,870 --> 00:21:04,350 what I didn't understand is that I am, but a piece 661 00:21:04,350 --> 00:21:05,550 of everybody else's life. 662 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:05,970 Yep. 663 00:21:06,150 --> 00:21:08,190 I am not all of everybody else's life. 664 00:21:08,879 --> 00:21:09,000 Yeah. 665 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,370 You only need to be central character in one movie. 666 00:21:11,850 --> 00:21:12,510 Exactly. 667 00:21:12,570 --> 00:21:17,310 And so my information to him was one of 20 things that 668 00:21:17,310 --> 00:21:18,270 happened to him that week. 669 00:21:18,275 --> 00:21:18,405 Sure. 670 00:21:18,450 --> 00:21:20,850 It wasn't the only thing that happened to him that week. 671 00:21:20,850 --> 00:21:21,900 It was the only thing that happened to me. 672 00:21:22,590 --> 00:21:24,030 Relative to life. 673 00:21:24,450 --> 00:21:26,220 It was not the only thing that happened to him. 674 00:21:26,580 --> 00:21:28,590 Here's another example, and I just think it's, 675 00:21:28,590 --> 00:21:29,490 it's kind of interesting. 676 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,240 Whenever you read something like in social media and 677 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,640 it's a big news item or a terrible news item, whatever, 678 00:21:36,270 --> 00:21:37,350 and you swirl right past it. 679 00:21:37,890 --> 00:21:38,160 Yeah. 680 00:21:38,190 --> 00:21:38,430 Right. 681 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,250 Such and such famous actor dies at whatever age. 682 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:41,550 Huh. 683 00:21:41,730 --> 00:21:42,270 That's interesting. 684 00:21:42,365 --> 00:21:43,710 Before I passed it, right? 685 00:21:43,710 --> 00:21:43,800 Yep. 686 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,560 Like, your world doesn't stop. 687 00:21:46,949 --> 00:21:47,250 Right, 688 00:21:47,310 --> 00:21:47,610 right. 689 00:21:47,969 --> 00:21:51,719 Like it's amazing because in that person's mind, like their 690 00:21:51,719 --> 00:21:54,239 death would, you know, cause this mourning and again, closer 691 00:21:54,239 --> 00:21:55,199 family members, stuff like that. 692 00:21:55,530 --> 00:21:58,530 But like what we forget is that we are, like you said, 693 00:21:58,530 --> 00:22:02,070 not the central character in everybody else's life in that 694 00:22:02,159 --> 00:22:06,209 moment doesn't mean nearly as much to them, but we treat. 695 00:22:06,945 --> 00:22:10,395 As if it's this cataclysmic it, it affects everybody 696 00:22:10,395 --> 00:22:13,335 the way it affects us, and it pretty much never does. 697 00:22:13,605 --> 00:22:15,975 It's not that investors don't care about founders or that 698 00:22:16,125 --> 00:22:18,675 customers don't care about founders, but what they really 699 00:22:18,675 --> 00:22:20,325 love is outcomes, right? 700 00:22:20,415 --> 00:22:23,265 So if the product delivers at some point, if the 701 00:22:23,265 --> 00:22:25,275 investment delivers, at some point they stick 702 00:22:25,275 --> 00:22:26,505 around, they're fine, right? 703 00:22:26,505 --> 00:22:26,865 They don't. 704 00:22:26,865 --> 00:22:27,375 And look, man, 705 00:22:27,435 --> 00:22:28,659 need you to be on 24 7. 706 00:22:29,564 --> 00:22:31,304 There are higher stakes conversations. 707 00:22:31,304 --> 00:22:33,344 Sometimes there are a-hole investors. 708 00:22:33,344 --> 00:22:33,524 Right. 709 00:22:33,524 --> 00:22:35,294 For, so I'm not saying that for all investors don't care. 710 00:22:35,594 --> 00:22:37,784 I'm saying we tend to forget that we are one 711 00:22:37,784 --> 00:22:40,995 of 20 investments and 18 of us are gonna fail. 712 00:22:41,294 --> 00:22:41,445 Yeah. 713 00:22:41,475 --> 00:22:45,495 So it's not like two of us are gonna fail and they're shocked 714 00:22:45,614 --> 00:22:47,459 that one of their portfolio to be It has to be one of the 715 00:22:47,459 --> 00:22:47,685 two. 716 00:22:47,834 --> 00:22:48,104 Yeah. 717 00:22:48,110 --> 00:22:48,189 Yeah. 718 00:22:48,284 --> 00:22:50,205 They probably had five conversations this month 719 00:22:50,205 --> 00:22:51,014 about the same thing. 720 00:22:51,524 --> 00:22:51,735 Right. 721 00:22:51,735 --> 00:22:54,314 So it's unfortunate, but it's not like, like they're 722 00:22:54,314 --> 00:22:55,334 running home crying now again. 723 00:22:56,145 --> 00:22:58,095 Lots of different investors, lots of different portfolios, 724 00:22:58,395 --> 00:23:01,905 but I think what's interesting is we always picture those 725 00:23:01,905 --> 00:23:04,215 moments as being way different. 726 00:23:04,575 --> 00:23:07,995 Like when we talk to our staff and we say, like in my case, 727 00:23:07,995 --> 00:23:10,275 hey, you know, I'm gonna take some time off to recharge. 728 00:23:10,695 --> 00:23:11,685 No one cares. 729 00:23:11,715 --> 00:23:13,395 Like literally Ryan. 730 00:23:13,395 --> 00:23:16,545 It took me years to even propose that in this 731 00:23:16,545 --> 00:23:17,630 whole time, no one cared. 732 00:23:18,405 --> 00:23:19,995 Sweating bullets while you do it. 733 00:23:19,995 --> 00:23:21,824 And then everyone's like, yep, it's good. 734 00:23:21,824 --> 00:23:22,215 See you in. 735 00:23:22,215 --> 00:23:22,875 See you in January. 736 00:23:23,054 --> 00:23:23,294 Yeah. 737 00:23:23,955 --> 00:23:24,794 And no one cares. 738 00:23:24,794 --> 00:23:27,435 And here's another side to it that I've also found interesting 739 00:23:27,435 --> 00:23:28,605 in other people's businesses. 740 00:23:29,145 --> 00:23:31,695 In some cases it's an opportunity. 741 00:23:31,995 --> 00:23:35,475 So if we step back from doing something so we can recharge, 742 00:23:35,475 --> 00:23:37,995 whatever, it's an opportunity for other people to step in. 743 00:23:38,685 --> 00:23:38,865 Yeah. 744 00:23:38,895 --> 00:23:40,725 And maybe crazy idea. 745 00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:42,810 Maybe that's what the business needs. 746 00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:43,320 Yeah. 747 00:23:43,710 --> 00:23:45,510 Maybe the business does need some people to kind 748 00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:47,520 of fill that vacuum for a minute so you can see what 749 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:48,540 other people had to offer. 750 00:23:48,690 --> 00:23:48,960 Yeah. 751 00:23:48,990 --> 00:23:49,230 Right. 752 00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:50,250 Give 'em the opportunity. 753 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:50,550 Right. 754 00:23:50,730 --> 00:23:53,310 If we keep the business in a death grip, it can't 755 00:23:53,310 --> 00:23:54,270 do anything without us. 756 00:23:54,270 --> 00:23:54,600 Right. 757 00:23:54,605 --> 00:23:55,055 It has to. 758 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,300 It relies on us at that point, but the minute we release 759 00:23:57,300 --> 00:23:59,790 that and relax a little bit, it can breathe on its own. 760 00:23:59,970 --> 00:24:00,240 Right. 761 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,530 At least has the chance to. 762 00:24:01,875 --> 00:24:02,145 Right. 763 00:24:02,145 --> 00:24:04,514 Again, mileage will vary, but like we can 764 00:24:04,514 --> 00:24:05,295 be sure of one thing. 765 00:24:05,295 --> 00:24:07,514 If you don't give the, the team the opportunity to step up, 766 00:24:07,605 --> 00:24:10,905 they can't and then we won't know what they're capable of. 767 00:24:11,385 --> 00:24:11,595 Right. 768 00:24:11,595 --> 00:24:13,514 And not, maybe they don't get everything perfect, but 769 00:24:13,514 --> 00:24:15,254 everything doesn't have to be perfect all the time either. 770 00:24:15,345 --> 00:24:15,645 Right. 771 00:24:15,705 --> 00:24:18,254 Like I'm a big fan of they, they call good enough. 772 00:24:18,284 --> 00:24:19,335 Good enough for a reason. 773 00:24:19,545 --> 00:24:19,815 Right. 774 00:24:19,815 --> 00:24:20,295 It's good enough. 775 00:24:20,295 --> 00:24:20,355 Yeah. 776 00:24:20,565 --> 00:24:20,760 Right. 777 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,514 It'll get you by and it's not like you're, it's not like you 778 00:24:22,514 --> 00:24:24,254 take a six year sabbatical. 779 00:24:24,284 --> 00:24:24,555 Right. 780 00:24:24,555 --> 00:24:25,905 You take off part of December. 781 00:24:26,325 --> 00:24:28,935 Well, and, and here's the thing for a lot of folks, 782 00:24:29,355 --> 00:24:31,605 they don't need you all the time in that capacity. 783 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,530 Especially, you know, if you're in management, like 784 00:24:34,530 --> 00:24:37,260 in a key management role, sometimes you are absolutely 785 00:24:37,260 --> 00:24:39,180 needed and there's a reason you're earning your paycheck. 786 00:24:39,180 --> 00:24:39,270 Sure. 787 00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:42,720 But most of the time everybody's doing their own shit. 788 00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:45,120 Like they're not super focused on where you are 789 00:24:45,390 --> 00:24:45,660 right 790 00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:45,960 now. 791 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:46,860 Think about this. 792 00:24:47,220 --> 00:24:50,940 Had I never proposed that I'm gonna take some time off to 793 00:24:51,185 --> 00:24:54,870 recharge, it would've never occurred to me that I could. 794 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:55,530 Right? 795 00:24:55,620 --> 00:24:58,920 So now, you know when, when Q4 rolls around, everybody 796 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:00,845 kind of knows that that Will's gonna check out for December. 797 00:25:01,635 --> 00:25:01,965 Right. 798 00:25:02,355 --> 00:25:06,375 And it's not a giant surprise, but for me, the amount 799 00:25:06,435 --> 00:25:08,895 of refresh that buys me 800 00:25:09,044 --> 00:25:09,439 Yeah, yeah. 801 00:25:10,034 --> 00:25:11,595 Is off the charts. 802 00:25:11,715 --> 00:25:12,044 Right? 803 00:25:12,135 --> 00:25:14,024 Well, the amount of refresh and just, but play out 804 00:25:14,024 --> 00:25:14,804 the other side of it. 805 00:25:14,834 --> 00:25:18,225 If you don't take that, it's not like things just keep going. 806 00:25:18,225 --> 00:25:19,365 I think this is the fallacy, right? 807 00:25:19,365 --> 00:25:21,705 This is, this is a big part of where founders get this wrong. 808 00:25:22,034 --> 00:25:22,635 It's like. 809 00:25:23,054 --> 00:25:24,915 They assume that just, well, okay, well I don't 810 00:25:24,915 --> 00:25:25,784 need that big refresh. 811 00:25:25,784 --> 00:25:26,955 I'll just keep limping through. 812 00:25:27,554 --> 00:25:30,645 Limp turns into crawl, turns to rollover, turns to 813 00:25:30,645 --> 00:25:32,054 die at some point, right? 814 00:25:32,054 --> 00:25:33,230 And I think that's where, yeah, you're right. 815 00:25:33,230 --> 00:25:35,145 You're right where this goes really, really wrong. 816 00:25:35,145 --> 00:25:38,445 And so yes, you need that refresh, but it's not just that 817 00:25:38,445 --> 00:25:40,034 you come out like, and you do. 818 00:25:40,034 --> 00:25:42,645 You come outta January like a rocket, which is amazing. 819 00:25:43,050 --> 00:25:45,899 But it's not like you would've just continued the same pattern 820 00:25:45,899 --> 00:25:48,990 as October, November, December, had you not taken a break. 821 00:25:49,050 --> 00:25:49,409 Right. 822 00:25:49,470 --> 00:25:51,419 Super, super dangerous assumption for people. 823 00:25:51,540 --> 00:25:55,260 I also think psychologically for all of us knowing that 824 00:25:55,260 --> 00:25:56,580 there is a break to be had. 825 00:25:56,790 --> 00:25:57,000 Yeah. 826 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,260 Makes it easier to pace. 827 00:25:58,770 --> 00:25:59,070 Yeah. 828 00:25:59,129 --> 00:25:59,399 Right. 829 00:25:59,399 --> 00:26:03,510 So like I get less anxious, if you will, that I'm less 830 00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:06,870 effective in October than less effective in November 831 00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:08,460 because I know I'm gonna reset. 832 00:26:09,270 --> 00:26:13,740 And so my, uh, anxiety about, you know, not being as effective 833 00:26:14,070 --> 00:26:16,200 is quelled to the extent that my anxiety can be quelled. 834 00:26:16,290 --> 00:26:18,060 Yeah, it's, it's similar to like, you know, when you're, 835 00:26:18,090 --> 00:26:20,250 when you're young and you're paycheck to paycheck, right? 836 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:20,460 Yep. 837 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,920 And you know, you're getting near the end of that paycheck 838 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,020 and the account's getting thin, but you know, the 839 00:26:25,020 --> 00:26:25,625 next paycheck is coming. 840 00:26:26,595 --> 00:26:29,325 You know, the next payday's coming and so you can feel 841 00:26:29,355 --> 00:26:31,665 comfortable, you know, I almost outta gas, but I 842 00:26:31,665 --> 00:26:33,885 know where the next, the next gas tank's coming from. 843 00:26:33,975 --> 00:26:34,215 Right. 844 00:26:34,215 --> 00:26:35,505 And I think that that's, that's important. 845 00:26:35,925 --> 00:26:36,135 Yeah. 846 00:26:36,135 --> 00:26:38,505 I was talking to a buddy of mine that was, uh, came to visit a 847 00:26:38,505 --> 00:26:42,825 few weeks ago and he had started doing quarterly retreats and 848 00:26:42,825 --> 00:26:46,485 he said he is like, I have no idea why I wasn't doing this 849 00:26:46,485 --> 00:26:50,175 the entire time for whatever it cost me in time and money. 850 00:26:50,645 --> 00:26:53,855 It bought me back in energy focus, creativity, 851 00:26:53,855 --> 00:26:54,365 all this stuff. 852 00:26:54,365 --> 00:26:56,375 It's like, and it, it just, it never occurred 853 00:26:56,375 --> 00:26:58,115 to me that I could, right. 854 00:26:58,115 --> 00:26:58,685 To your point. 855 00:26:58,685 --> 00:26:58,955 Right. 856 00:26:58,985 --> 00:27:01,625 Hadn't given himself permission to even think about it, let 857 00:27:01,625 --> 00:27:03,485 alone to do it until he did. 858 00:27:03,605 --> 00:27:05,705 And he is like, actually this works. 859 00:27:06,215 --> 00:27:08,585 I gotta say, you know, as much as we're been talking about 860 00:27:08,585 --> 00:27:12,845 it, as I think through it in 32 years of being a founder to this 861 00:27:12,845 --> 00:27:15,485 day, I still look at vacation. 862 00:27:15,485 --> 00:27:19,355 I still justify vacation as an opportunity to work more. 863 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,670 Not during vacation, but post vacation, I look at any time 864 00:27:23,670 --> 00:27:26,640 off is an opportunity for me to be more productive when 865 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:27,600 I come through the time off. 866 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:27,750 Yeah. 867 00:27:28,290 --> 00:27:31,470 And if I don't feel like I am, I don't take the time. 868 00:27:31,470 --> 00:27:32,040 I'll give you an example. 869 00:27:32,745 --> 00:27:35,084 My wife and I go on vacation and she'll be the first to 870 00:27:35,084 --> 00:27:36,885 admit I suck at vacation. 871 00:27:36,915 --> 00:27:40,965 I'm not good at vacation at all, because the entire time, my 872 00:27:40,965 --> 00:27:42,824 mind's just racing about work. 873 00:27:42,824 --> 00:27:42,885 Yeah. 874 00:27:43,034 --> 00:27:43,304 Right. 875 00:27:43,334 --> 00:27:43,425 Yeah. 876 00:27:43,485 --> 00:27:44,594 Uh, I can't turn it off. 877 00:27:45,135 --> 00:27:47,955 And when I'm sitting on a beach and I'm staring 878 00:27:47,955 --> 00:27:49,635 at my toes, I'm like. 879 00:27:50,385 --> 00:27:50,985 This is boring. 880 00:27:51,345 --> 00:27:54,075 Like, you know, I wonder how we could increase our, our landing 881 00:27:54,075 --> 00:27:56,475 page or I wonder how, you know, we could do this or whatever. 882 00:27:56,475 --> 00:27:56,655 Right? 883 00:27:56,835 --> 00:27:59,805 My mind's constantly on something else, so 884 00:27:59,805 --> 00:28:00,764 I suck at vacation. 885 00:28:00,885 --> 00:28:03,105 My wife on the other hand, she's like, I don't care about 886 00:28:03,105 --> 00:28:04,245 anything when I'm on vacation. 887 00:28:04,245 --> 00:28:04,455 Right? 888 00:28:04,455 --> 00:28:06,735 She goes full vacation mode, which is awesome. 889 00:28:07,695 --> 00:28:11,295 So I look at my vacation as if, when I go on it, if I don't do 890 00:28:11,295 --> 00:28:14,055 a good job with it, like if I know I'm not gonna like rest 891 00:28:14,055 --> 00:28:15,295 or recharge, why take one? 892 00:28:16,350 --> 00:28:19,770 And so because of that, I'm not good at planning 893 00:28:19,770 --> 00:28:20,730 or taking vacations. 894 00:28:21,270 --> 00:28:21,540 Yeah. 895 00:28:21,540 --> 00:28:22,680 Most people do this crazy thing. 896 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:22,740 Yeah. 897 00:28:22,740 --> 00:28:24,629 When you're looking at the ROI, that specifically 898 00:28:24,629 --> 00:28:25,350 I think is tough. 899 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:26,250 Yeah. 900 00:28:26,250 --> 00:28:27,629 Most people do this crazy thing where they take 901 00:28:27,629 --> 00:28:28,710 vacations just 'cause it's fun. 902 00:28:29,070 --> 00:28:29,340 Yeah. 903 00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:29,970 They want to. 904 00:28:30,305 --> 00:28:30,595 Yeah. 905 00:28:31,620 --> 00:28:32,610 Which doesn't occur to me. 906 00:28:32,850 --> 00:28:33,300 I remember. 907 00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:36,510 This is years back, I'd taken a March vacation, 908 00:28:36,510 --> 00:28:38,130 like spring break, you know, for the kids and stuff. 909 00:28:38,130 --> 00:28:38,910 I don't remember where we went. 910 00:28:38,910 --> 00:28:39,420 Whatever we did. 911 00:28:39,990 --> 00:28:41,730 And it was rare because it how 912 00:28:41,730 --> 00:28:43,230 much you enjoyed the actual vacation part. 913 00:28:43,350 --> 00:28:44,310 Exactly, exactly. 914 00:28:44,370 --> 00:28:47,010 Like, you know, spring break's coming up and uh, to give you 915 00:28:47,010 --> 00:28:50,310 a sense for it, family's going on vacation for nine days. 916 00:28:50,460 --> 00:28:52,650 They're going place in Florida and I'm not going. 917 00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:53,280 Yeah. 918 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:53,970 Because I have work to do. 919 00:28:54,570 --> 00:28:55,440 This says it. 920 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:56,070 All right. 921 00:28:56,610 --> 00:28:58,889 So anyway, my point is, I remember I went on 922 00:28:58,889 --> 00:29:00,929 that vacation and I came back and it felt great. 923 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,360 It felt great, and I remember talking to you 924 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,120 guys and I was like, man, I should do this every year. 925 00:29:06,659 --> 00:29:07,230 And you're like. 926 00:29:07,635 --> 00:29:09,165 Like literally everyone else does. 927 00:29:09,435 --> 00:29:09,795 Yeah. 928 00:29:10,065 --> 00:29:10,395 Yeah. 929 00:29:10,635 --> 00:29:10,935 Just, 930 00:29:10,935 --> 00:29:13,035 I thought I'd come back with some special knowledge no one 931 00:29:13,035 --> 00:29:14,205 else had ever shared before 932 00:29:14,535 --> 00:29:14,955 Lightning. 933 00:29:14,955 --> 00:29:17,085 You got lightning in a bottle here will, you should name 934 00:29:17,085 --> 00:29:19,755 this something like vacation and sell it to people. 935 00:29:19,815 --> 00:29:19,965 Yeah. 936 00:29:21,615 --> 00:29:23,955 And I remember saying, I remember saying, dare to dream. 937 00:29:24,015 --> 00:29:27,255 Imagine if I, how I'd feel if I did this every quarter. 938 00:29:27,615 --> 00:29:27,795 Yeah. 939 00:29:28,830 --> 00:29:30,629 You mean like literally every person does? 940 00:29:30,990 --> 00:29:31,290 Yeah. 941 00:29:31,740 --> 00:29:32,820 See, it doesn't even occur to me. 942 00:29:33,090 --> 00:29:34,680 But here's what's been interesting. 943 00:29:34,860 --> 00:29:37,740 Okay, so I'm not great vacation guy, but here's what I have done 944 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:38,970 that I think is very valuable. 945 00:29:39,420 --> 00:29:41,250 I understand burnout is real. 946 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,440 I've taken command for it, and I planned for it, right? 947 00:29:46,530 --> 00:29:49,260 Like I've actually started to say, I'm not gonna 948 00:29:49,260 --> 00:29:50,280 pretend it doesn't happen. 949 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,170 I'm not gonna look at it as a failure of my ability. 950 00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:54,960 I'm gonna look at it as an absolute certainty. 951 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:55,800 Yeah. 952 00:29:56,010 --> 00:29:56,790 And I'm gonna plan around it. 953 00:29:57,375 --> 00:29:58,725 And I, I think a lot of people miss that. 954 00:29:58,725 --> 00:29:59,115 You know what I mean? 955 00:29:59,385 --> 00:29:59,745 Yeah. 956 00:29:59,745 --> 00:30:02,085 And, and I think that that is the important part, right? 957 00:30:02,085 --> 00:30:04,365 Is you gotta, you gotta accept that it's coming and 958 00:30:04,365 --> 00:30:05,055 you have to plan for it. 959 00:30:05,055 --> 00:30:06,225 It's like, it's like taxes, right? 960 00:30:06,225 --> 00:30:08,355 You don't get to just not pay them, right? 961 00:30:08,355 --> 00:30:11,265 You're gonna pay the tax and it comes around, and if you plan 962 00:30:11,265 --> 00:30:12,465 for it, it's a lot less painful. 963 00:30:12,465 --> 00:30:14,565 If you don't, you can get very painful. 964 00:30:14,655 --> 00:30:18,615 We gotta stop thinking of, of recovery as time off, right? 965 00:30:18,615 --> 00:30:19,395 It's maintenance. 966 00:30:19,395 --> 00:30:20,955 It is a required piece of this. 967 00:30:21,550 --> 00:30:23,320 I'm sure you'd agree, but I can't think of a 968 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,480 single great startup that was built on somebody 969 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,209 that just looked burnout, drag ass and empty tank. 970 00:30:28,270 --> 00:30:28,659 Right. 971 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,070 It just doesn't happen. 972 00:30:30,129 --> 00:30:32,560 You can't, because that spreads too, right? 973 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:32,649 Yep. 974 00:30:32,649 --> 00:30:34,419 If that's you, then that's the rest of the team too. 975 00:30:34,870 --> 00:30:36,730 There was, somebody said this once and I, I couldn't 976 00:30:36,730 --> 00:30:37,540 help but agree a bit. 977 00:30:37,540 --> 00:30:40,270 Like if you can't take time off, you don't own a company, 978 00:30:40,389 --> 00:30:41,770 your company owns you, right? 979 00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:42,100 Yeah. 980 00:30:42,220 --> 00:30:47,500 You're so involved in every single process that. 981 00:30:47,925 --> 00:30:49,665 You are required for everything. 982 00:30:49,665 --> 00:30:50,805 You don't have employees either. 983 00:30:50,865 --> 00:30:51,705 They have you. 984 00:30:51,795 --> 00:30:55,215 You have to build these things in a way that don't rely on 985 00:30:55,215 --> 00:30:58,485 your input a hundred percent of the time if you have, you 986 00:30:58,485 --> 00:30:59,925 haven't really built a business. 987 00:31:00,375 --> 00:31:00,795 I agree. 988 00:31:00,915 --> 00:31:01,995 It's also reflective. 989 00:31:02,325 --> 00:31:05,655 I mean, if you're saying it's okay to, to run to failure 990 00:31:05,655 --> 00:31:08,475 and, and operate at failure, then you're also telling 991 00:31:08,535 --> 00:31:09,375 the rest of your staff. 992 00:31:09,375 --> 00:31:10,545 I remember like, you know, yeah. 993 00:31:10,605 --> 00:31:12,405 Elon Musk does this thing all the time where he is like, you 994 00:31:12,405 --> 00:31:14,925 know, I've got engineers working a hundred hours a week and 995 00:31:14,925 --> 00:31:16,245 blah, blah, blah, and I'm like. 996 00:31:16,635 --> 00:31:17,265 Okay. 997 00:31:17,355 --> 00:31:19,005 Like neat, how long does that last? 998 00:31:19,425 --> 00:31:19,665 Right? 999 00:31:19,670 --> 00:31:21,855 Like, like who's at peak performance when you do that? 1000 00:31:22,275 --> 00:31:25,035 You can do it leading up to a, a unique event if 1001 00:31:25,035 --> 00:31:26,445 you go back and replenish. 1002 00:31:26,625 --> 00:31:26,685 Yeah. 1003 00:31:26,685 --> 00:31:28,725 But if you're like, that's our standard work week. 1004 00:31:28,965 --> 00:31:31,155 Like I remember the old adage, I think it was Goldman 1005 00:31:31,155 --> 00:31:33,495 Sachs, it said, if you don't come in on Saturday, don't 1006 00:31:33,495 --> 00:31:34,515 bother coming in on Sunday. 1007 00:31:34,695 --> 00:31:35,025 Yeah. 1008 00:31:35,025 --> 00:31:36,855 And I remember that was such a classic eighties, 1009 00:31:36,855 --> 00:31:38,565 you know, Axiom at the time. 1010 00:31:38,565 --> 00:31:39,975 I remember thinking that was awesome. 1011 00:31:40,845 --> 00:31:41,205 Yeah. 1012 00:31:41,265 --> 00:31:42,585 And I look back, I'm like, wow. 1013 00:31:42,585 --> 00:31:44,445 Like, like all those miserable people. 1014 00:31:44,810 --> 00:31:47,480 And I get it, you know, I get the, the hard work ethos, but, 1015 00:31:47,540 --> 00:31:51,590 but I'll say this, I think for a lot of us that haven't done 1016 00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:55,070 the startup thing before, we don't realize that there aren't 1017 00:31:55,430 --> 00:31:56,750 scheduled breaks, you know? 1018 00:31:56,810 --> 00:31:56,960 Yeah. 1019 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:58,070 Like, like a W2 job. 1020 00:31:58,310 --> 00:32:02,330 And we don't realize that we are gonna run ourselves 1021 00:32:02,330 --> 00:32:04,970 into the ground in a way that we've never done before 1022 00:32:04,970 --> 00:32:06,980 at a freaking epic level. 1023 00:32:07,070 --> 00:32:08,330 Well, and that's the thing, right? 1024 00:32:08,330 --> 00:32:10,490 It, because we've never had an opportunity to do it before. 1025 00:32:10,970 --> 00:32:11,030 Yeah. 1026 00:32:11,030 --> 00:32:12,860 Regardless of whether, you know, where you were, 1027 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:13,925 there would've been. 1028 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,080 Built in break points, right? 1029 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,360 It's like you can't just go and play on a soccer team and just 1030 00:32:18,430 --> 00:32:19,500 play and play and play and play. 1031 00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:21,720 They, they blow the whistle and they make you get off the field. 1032 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,390 'cause the next teams right, like it, there are forced and 1033 00:32:24,390 --> 00:32:26,040 built in stops and breaks. 1034 00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:28,650 And I think you enter startup for the first time and you, 1035 00:32:28,650 --> 00:32:29,910 you run into two things. 1036 00:32:29,910 --> 00:32:33,480 You run into a machine that will take as much 1037 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:34,560 as you can give, right? 1038 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,780 There will always be something more to do. 1039 00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:37,380 Endless torrent, 1040 00:32:38,190 --> 00:32:39,300 endless right? 1041 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:40,980 Endless consumption. 1042 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:42,180 And. 1043 00:32:42,585 --> 00:32:45,825 Simultaneously, all the people who would've told you to stop, 1044 00:32:45,825 --> 00:32:46,905 who would've blown the whistle. 1045 00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:48,630 Gone, right? 1046 00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:48,640 Yeah. 1047 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,460 And so in the beginning, we think that it's our 1048 00:32:50,460 --> 00:32:53,010 goal to be tireless, right? 1049 00:32:53,010 --> 00:32:54,840 That we have to just be able to keep doing this. 1050 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,610 And what I realized over time is like my goal is 1051 00:32:56,610 --> 00:32:57,750 actually just to be durable. 1052 00:32:58,230 --> 00:32:59,220 I don't need to be tireless. 1053 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:00,240 I just gotta, it's 1054 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:00,690 well said. 1055 00:33:00,900 --> 00:33:03,030 I gotta be able to outlast this stuff, right? 1056 00:33:03,030 --> 00:33:04,620 And that does mean resting. 1057 00:33:04,620 --> 00:33:05,730 That does mean stopping. 1058 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,095 That does mean taking a beat here and there. 1059 00:33:07,699 --> 00:33:10,459 I don't think we should worry about running out of gas 1060 00:33:10,550 --> 00:33:11,689 so long as you plan for it. 1061 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:13,639 I think it's, it's okay to run hard. 1062 00:33:13,639 --> 00:33:15,439 It's okay to do those a hundred hour weeks or, you 1063 00:33:15,439 --> 00:33:16,310 know, whatever you're doing. 1064 00:33:16,459 --> 00:33:18,649 So long as you plan for what's on the other side. 1065 00:33:18,649 --> 00:33:18,830 Yeah. 1066 00:33:18,834 --> 00:33:18,855 Yeah. 1067 00:33:19,010 --> 00:33:19,189 Right. 1068 00:33:19,189 --> 00:33:22,040 So long as you, you plan for, for your, for your time out. 1069 00:33:22,370 --> 00:33:25,040 And when I think about great startups that are built. 1070 00:33:25,605 --> 00:33:27,225 I don't think about great startups that are built 1071 00:33:27,225 --> 00:33:29,985 where everyone just runs to, uh, to the end forever. 1072 00:33:29,985 --> 00:33:31,395 Yeah, it's unsustainable. 1073 00:33:31,545 --> 00:33:33,045 You cannot run a business. 1074 00:33:33,045 --> 00:33:35,385 You cannot run yourself by running everybody 1075 00:33:35,385 --> 00:33:35,925 into the ground. 1076 00:33:35,925 --> 00:33:37,365 It doesn't last, right? 1077 00:33:37,365 --> 00:33:39,375 So if you're planning on building for long, team 1078 00:33:39,525 --> 00:33:41,745 term for yourself, for your, your company, for your 1079 00:33:41,745 --> 00:33:44,295 staff, et cetera, you've gotta plan these breaks. 1080 00:33:44,385 --> 00:33:46,575 There are no great companies that have ever been 1081 00:33:46,575 --> 00:33:47,865 built on an empty tank. 1082 00:33:48,975 --> 00:33:50,835 Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone. 1083 00:33:51,225 --> 00:33:54,075 You don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't because instead, 1084 00:33:54,135 --> 00:33:57,075 you can learn directly from peers who've been in your shoes. 1085 00:33:57,315 --> 00:33:59,655 Connect with bootstrap founders and the advisors 1086 00:33:59,655 --> 00:34:02,085 helping them win in the startups.com community. 1087 00:34:02,235 --> 00:34:06,885 Check out the startups.com community@www.startups.com 1088 00:34:06,975 --> 00:34:07,905 to see if it's for you. 1089 00:34:08,115 --> 00:34:09,165 Could be just the thing you need. 1090 00:34:09,405 --> 00:34:10,365 I hope to see you inside.